##VIDEO ID:0TgEwbZKUPM## e well so much for that all right all right I'm going to call to order uh park and rec advisory commission meeting it's Thursday January 2nd 5 o'clock at City Hall um we're going to move to um or make a motion or can I get a motion to uh approve the agenda for tonight um I'll so move I'll second all in favor I I motion carries um can I get a motion to approve the December 5th minutes I'll make the motion to I'll second that all right all in favor I motion do we have a quorum here tonight three should be a quorum right yeah motion carries um moving to open Forum we have in the audience tonight Bruce Bruce anys feet wet here why doesn't he just come on up here yes Bruce will be taking over in an official capacity in February so he's getting uh a little more acclimated and tonight is Paula's last meeting so yes all right well I'm going to close the open Forum uh Department reports awesome um I don't have a whole lot for you guys this month um we flooded The Rinks we closed the rinks we're flooding The Rinks again and our hope is that we'll be ready to reopen the warming house tomorrow um they've been working pretty hard on it here today to build some ice back um so with that we trained all the seasonal staff um Recreation programs are starting next week so that's youth pond hockey adult pond hockey and uh youth basketball um so we're going to get all that going and then also coming up here in January we are planning to bid the Golic Trail project so met with the engineer today and and they're still on schedule to bring that to council this month so open hoping to open bidding for that at the end of January the next two weeks look good for ice making they do they're cold really cold now we just need some snow after we make ice well yeah after you make ice after we make ice then it can come so yes happy to answer any questions if you have them but it's mostly all revolved around ice making ice keeping ice y um all right new business okay so tonight um I have some documents in front of you there um I would like to start big and work our way down so if we can pull out our existing conditions document here um this is something that the engineers were working on in part trying to get ready for the DNR outdoor W Grant um as of this morning we have $37,000 in the niswa enrichment fund uh the last donation came in in October so we did not receive anything through November or December um looking at the existing conditions I had them overlay it on the concept design and so there's a lot going on here um I have it zoomed in up on your screen pretty close on the pickle ball playground area what we determined could be phase one and so just to kind of Orient us a little bit we have in the blue here the blue hashes are the playground and the pickle ball areas in the red line is existing infrastructure there um it does not have a red line around the basketball court the basketball court would also be impacted um so to get an idea of how much the proposed plan and the existing infrastructure interact with each other um the tree line is this kind of curly q line here so that's the wooded area okay well what's the one you got the the blue Lin but this what's the second blue lined area there's one that's the pickle ball tennis court area the rectangle yeah and then the stop sign one is the playground oh okay so kind of gives a little bit of perspective here which is what I was hoping for we've talked a lot about how they play off each other and the domino effect um and how they could work together um there's a lot of information here it has you know like the water shut off valve it has the elevations the shelters the lights the utilities all that information to help us um look through this and if and how things may need to shift um one of the biggest considerations is the corner of the playground through the warming house area yeah I noticed that just now and so looking at some of this playground is one thing that can change shape um it's also one thing that we need to kind of determine the size of so the playground company can put the pieces in the correct container um so I wanted to bring this to you tonight to start getting those wheels turning on how they all interact um I will pause for question if we're understanding the document well how does this um proposed new playground area how does that superimpose with the current playground area is that R this the current playground area is the red rectangle oh okay um and so the sidewalks are kind of the lines the skinny skinny lines um the top rectangle is the current playground area and then the black box over on the bottom right side is the warming house next to that's the garage so I will say the existing playground is half in the pickle ball area and half in the proposed playground area and then the other half of the pickle ball and Tennis would be up in the wooded area this isn't exactly how I Envision Envision it from our previous schematics I guess I didn't I thought the playground area the proposed one would be is more in line with where the current playground was and the pickle ball area encroached on that wooded area further in than it shows it here how far into the where's the boundary of the wooded area little cures yeah I mean really where the the existing playground red line is I mean okay that really abots the the tree line basically yeah so that's the edge of the existing okay that's the tree line oh all right and then right now this area is just kind of a grassy opening so that's why that's not that's a good question sidewalk yeah okay all right where the bathrooms that' be in this building they in the warming house oh they are okay y oh okay okay that makes sense okay yeah we're all following y yeah so as I see it here I mean if we were to go move forward with phase one we'd be taking out the warming house and essentially shutting I mean the rink would be maybe operational but we'd be looking at no warming house or we could move the boundary over to the left more that's kind of one of the things up for debate um also depends on the life of the hockey rink if the hockey rink doesn't have life in it the warming house doesn't need to exist um but the bathrooms do less than ideal but you could put in porta potties temporarily so this is kind of where it's tough because we don't have the full funding plan we don't know the exact order of life left a playground can change shape yeah we want to change the shape of the playground for the future can you use this space over here where the basketball court is or is there a reason why that space isn't being used like sorry um All Things Are Up For Debate I would probably just scoot it towards the softball field a little bit more yeah it's not a huge I mean it seems kind of silly to me to take down a building for just that little time tiny piece where if you can just move jet it out in another yeah I'll say as long as we like the final outcome of that yeah I would say if you don't want that as your final outcome but as long as we're good with the outcome and saving the building then can certainly work around it I'll say e whether the plan does call for removal of the warming house building and garages um we have a long ways to go to get funding as well yeah in the interm there'd be repairs so you still got over here to the right of the playground in the pickle ball area you still got that grassy area that's in there now could could it sort of jut out into that more and leaves some of this open space more down by the warming house is that a possibility to kind of turn it on its yeah and again it doesn't have to be a rectangle the a playground is the one thing that can have even this look like a kidney can you could borrow it here and you could go straight out here it would equal basically the same amount of square footage so what I'm hearing right now is trying to find a way to keep the warming health building work around it other than that are we generally liking how they interface how they overlay the proposed locations yeah it's going to be a long time before the the uh ice rink is is uh rebuilt to the specifications of the master plan potentially yes and we already have issues going on there in the ice rink with just updating things so we really do need to keep that warming house a lot of is this a lot that's going to be cut down will it change a lot um let me see the scale um I would I want know off the top of their head how long a pickle ball CT is I'd say it's probably 80 feet okay into the woods and so would there be new sidewalks um you know configured around the outside yeah yes I know in that some of that feedback that I sent you I've heard a lot of people talk about um accessibility visibility the idea of having a pathway around the playground so you know one kid can play someone else can be in the stroller um scooter you name it um so this plan does propose kind of a perimeter around it yeah yeah that I read that today I mean and then I looked at the master um plan survey that was done back in 2022 and that was one thing that parents said about the playground was they wanted right now they're you know they have only that one sidewalk they can sit there but they can't see their kids on the far side of the playground and they want wanted to be able to you know sit around at different angles to be able to observe that's some of the most feedback I think I've received is just the ability like where are the seatings positioned the ability to walk around um one mentioned the ramp so you have to go all the way around the ramp to come back in um and so thinking about some of that stuff and whether it's more you know for them to scooter around or for the parents to have different Vantage points how does this um jive with the fly over that's on the you know the interactive the zoom that uh was generated it doesn't seem to me to be the same because that included you know sort of by the playground a big seating area and tables and is that incorporated in here or is that just it should an idea you can see kind of where the underlying master plan is it's kind of shaded in green and blue underneath oh this is the new hockey and like right here is a fire pit and this would be all the seating in here okay so you can barely see it but this should match up with the master plan like here's the proposed new parking and the tennis court but where would that kind of Central Area be on here looks like the looks the seating is all in here cuz you see like fire pits and like a big patio in here okay and again conceptual so like if there's something you know it gives an idea of I think it had you know a bench in each corner and like no let's put like a shelter right up next to it yeah or you know we want something different or a pathway you know so I like conceptual we need to pick kind of the area the zone I'll call the zone to work within um keeping some of that feedback in mind well from what you just said about the um the amount in the U Nisan enrichment fund I don't think you're going to be submitting a DNR Grant this coming March highly unlikely unless January is crazy busy which is unfortunate because even if you were able to submit it you the money wouldn't be available till next July and then that doesn't leave you much time to actually accomplish this correct in that current year so then you're let's say you even got the money this year you're still pushing it out two years to to an opening of the whole new area yeah so the other thing that we'll be keeping an eye on the spring too is um the local option sales tax it's some something we've talked about in the past as a potential funding mechanism um Bruce has extensive experience in his um work in Detroit Lakes on different taxes um food and beverage local sales tax so that's something we'll be monitoring and however that plays out in legislation um if this is something that could qualify we can bring it to city council to see if there's an appetite for that so that's also something that we're monitoring along with the niswa enrichment fund and um seeing what we can do to re-engage that come springtime as well um but I do think this is regardless of the Grant and the timing of that I think this is very good information for us to work with to help us start figuring out some of these more fine details and um being able to direct some of that um so my my biggest question kind of you for you guys tonight to think about was the relationship with the warming house um because that specifically goes into our next topic of the playground um but there's definitely a lot of food for thought here and just layout and um and then it goes into the whole engineering of it all how much life in that rink and I mean that question I know has been asked for 15 years now um it's tough It's in tough shape um we did patch the concrete there's cracks all in the patches so it'll have to continuously be um dealt with there are 12 bulbs out um unfortunately seven of them are facing the same direction towards Center Ice um so that's probably one of my biggest concerns did you say that we can still buy the bulbs or we cannot the story I've heard is that they scour the country and could not okay I this will be on a different topic but I did find somebody who would be interested in possibly um supporting lights for the rink okay so I can yeah years in um 2021 I looked at retrofitting okay the lights and it was about 25,000 per rink okay um happy to re go down these paths to see if there are bulbs to see what that cost might be um but that's probably one of my biggest concerns in terms of hockey yeah is the lighting um in terms of Summer it's the damaged concrete um also thinking about um the tub being underneath and the glycol still in the system and what that is doing underneath the concrete that we can't see so if it's still intact if there's damage to it if it's what we need to do with a refrigeration system and just out of curiosity are you guys still flooding the second rink or are you just doing the one we're doing both you are doing both yep so the skating rink is operational this will be this is our first year just having kind of a class five curb um so it's a little bit new and learning for all of us without snow be great if there was a little bit but yes and we still have both of them I think it's people really like having the separation especially for small kids yes is there any going to be any benches out there it'd be helpful we put some rock around there and people have been using those mostly to try and keep people from driving on it but um so probably more to come on this again there's a lot of information here with the existing conditions um there's definitely going to be a lot more dialogue and fine-tuning um if we're not able to apply for the grant probably won't have the engineers keep doing work so the whole goal was to um be ready to apply for the grant um they did put out the new information in December there's some additional environmental things to step through um but we don't need to keep going through specifications and plans at this time um until we get a better idea of when this is going to happen and exactly how well we still have the design and the company that we're going to be talking about the you know the design of the equipment where does that put them um they are aware um of kind of that we're in a fundraising this is not unfamiliar to them um they switching kind of more towards that topic of playground specific um when I talk to the uh rep um that would be designing it kind of talked about getting them some preliminary information here talking about just some highlevel um desires that we would have for them to then begin um an initial design for us to respond to um so the other bit of information there that I have for you guys um includes some different things on elements in a playground um swing slides things like that um especially from an inclusive lens that was the goal of this playground um as well as a whole sheet on color palettes so I think color of a playground really sets a tone um Paul feel free to chime in as um your experience in this um I know we talked for sure about inclusive design we've talked a little bit about maybe having some nature type elements included um from there I think the color palette's kind of the other thing and so I know some of the feedback that I've received um one was thinking really like what's our brand what's n's bread and butter like let's stay kind of true to that and turtles trains Lakes trees Trails kind of kind of stuff and so just trying to find some high level things to direct them to begin and initial um swings people want swings lots of swings um that's the one thing I've really heard and then in terms of playground design some of the feedback people like that it's a little shorter um some people well some people are very into like having a tower a taller Tower because there's not a whole lot of them around and other people really like that it's short because then no three-year-old stays over in the their playground they like to go to the big playground um and so most three-year-olds can navigate um the larger playgrounds so well don't you think we have to have some elements of both yes because you want it to be more accessible than to just toddlers yes we want it to age be able to age with the kids and um and and we don't want to like age out of a design either a theme um so we don't want to get so I think the one person said trendy we don't want to be so trendy that it doesn't last the length of time and then we want it to grow with the users as well so I think in a lot of playground designs it's like 20% 2 to five year old and then 80% 5 to 12 year old yeah and that's interesting to in a lot of cases the higher you get the less you can do with that height and so a lot of times you see these structures that are just really high and then you have like two or three slides coming off of it then if you actually watch kids play kids get bored of slides pretty quick because they're not challenging kids want to be challenged and you can only go up to uh and then go down a slide so many times before you get bored so then all of a sudden you watch them they're climbing up the slide they're trying to get on top of the tower they're trying to they're jumping off so it's so I think height is important but I think is a little overrated I'd rather see something small or like lower but more challenging events throughout than just to put a tower with slides up there because um that gets old really quick I think there's yeah and to that point and you see like ninja courses and maybe we don't want a full ninja course but maybe there's some elements of that to have that physical challenge without you know a height thing and with and if we're gearing towards inclusive the I mean there's no elevation in that Park essentially and to go up the the higher you get the more expensive it gets to because you're going up with ramps you're not going up with you know in order to get you know Walkers or wheelchairs or you know whatever it may be up to the top so but there's elements there's other ways to get height it's bringing in topography you know opposed to equipment you know you know so there's there's ways to get height but um so in our um RFQ that we did um our guiding principles were inclusion and Equity so a lot of age appropriate um evolving for users evolving recreational needs um Equitable access to playground amenities and then considering various varying needs um social emotional and neurodiverse needs so those are kind of the subcategories um for that one high quality design um durable low maintenance materials thinking about ongoing maintenance and environmental strategies and then the color palette um considering the Aesthetics as well as heat transfer and fading and things like that um under healthy Community we had um play opportunities that facilitate interaction and connectivity as well as independent play um and then activities that promote movement active play and motor skills as well as mental health and development and then obviously meeting all the safety standards and then um play system will consider uh sight lines visibility of playground users and the ability to supervis um by persons responsible so I think in our guiding principles we've talked a lot about this stuff um and then as you kind of see the different elements here you got your spinning um so all your various types of Merry gos there's varying types of inclusive both of these are all three of these are inclusive um types of spinning so from there we can narrow down what type of spinner we want and then swinging what kind of swings do we want and um eventually kind of what kind of play panel sensory um kind of slides music if we want music um what sort of social imaginative play things like that um so I kind of gave you guys this one to just get the wheels turning not that we have to pick out exactly what Play Elements um we want but if there's something that we really want to make sure that we want in our design like swings and whatever else um I can certainly relay that at this time people want traditional swings or I mean here on these Pages there's some creative looking there's definitely some different um it there's there's two different types two different age groups of inclusive swings like the big plastic ones um you'll see various buddy swings so some of them are two bench seats for older kids one's could be a bucket seat and a bench seat um so I'd say we'd probably want a mixture there's also like um um I forget what they call it it's like a saucer where you can uh an Ood swing um where multiple kids can be on the same one um so you get a little more bang for your buck on those friendship swings um the Ood swing there does have a fairly large footprint I was going to say it takes up a lot of space yeah are you considering those type of climbing um elements as well or because they aren't completely inclusive excluding climbing no I think it I think we want to consider having that um there's various ropes domes um you know they got this little whatever they call this one this little cozy Dome yeah um that's just a mini climber I think some of the rock um here let me pull up a nature play um you got these rock climber type things um that have Nets on them um they have webbed Towers um I think there's a lot of different okay ways to include yeah include it but seeo I mean just from a theming standpoint outside of obviously our overarching theme is destination slash inclusive and that's what we want it to be but our under arching theme I do like more of a natural natural tones starting with the color scheme whether it be true Browns and greens or if we want to add more like the lake you know the Lakes some of these like more different color blues with greens I like too but still kind of going with that more natural um you know I had suggested yeah whether it be just going with more natural Woods I mean looking at like Paul bunion or yeah turtles or CL I mean making it classic boats or boat more you know Boat Boat and water themed like nautical not necessarily nautical but or boat themed or um and I mentioned you can I don't want to like over theme it to where it becomes cheesy but I think you can I think working with lands or Flagship Recreation I think they can do a really nice job of making it classy um and still having a a theme yeah the first couple of pages have what you're talking about with the last ones are kind of last few pages where there's a lot of turquoise and um not so much is that kind of how is everyone else kind of leaning towards the natural brown blue green some way shape or form wanted to have some color that stands out so you can see the playground from a distance are you looking for us to pick out from these examples you have here not necessarily um I was by what I heard from the community I was kind of thinking along these same lines as you guys um I don't think we want to go full primary color on it um but again something that is you know does draw people in um without fading being hot things like that that we put in our guiding principles I like pallet BJ BJ H three H3 BJ bottom right yeah but that's totally personal opinion it's kind of natural but it's still a little bit colorful it's kind of similar to um the concept design that we did it was like brighter blue and green it wasn't a full um water forest green it was a more bright green is gray better for uh heat transfer like things getting hot I think the darker it is the hotter it is so you'd probably want to stay in the from that dark what is the floor gonna be consist of what not wood chips um also we would have to figure that out um a lot of that is probably going to come down to our budget uh last update I heard on porn in place is about $30 a square foot because I read some comments in the the survey several that said it was hard to walk in the wood chips yes um I've heard that I've heard that it destroys clothes it gets stuck in kids sandals that's my own kids experience yeah um other concerns of what's the material of the rubber how environmentally friendly that is on the flip side um we do have rubber in certain areas um we've had mats under the slides under the swings so there's a lot of places that do a hybrid for better for worse um W chips they now go on the Rubber and now you're that's a maintenance thing continuously brushing that off um honestly I think it's going to come down to our budget yeah because it is just so expensive to do a full port in place yeah and I know I've seen playgrounds that do like some PED in place some tur you know like an artificial turf y some and then parts of it um like wood chips um switch up the the materiality throughout I don't love it's nice to be consistent with one or another because if you combine them the wood you know you still get wood chips everywhere you know you're constantly maintaining wood chips are going to find their way onto the pon place which is hard on it um that's just the reality it yeah I've also been told that it's hard to match port in place so it's actually better to have different colors in design to it yeah in what you calling it p and p p place oh PED in place yeah I thought you said port in something poured in place Yeah the more like this uh well yeah they've got it yeah you can make like a river with a stone bridge and some walking and some frogs and lily pads and if there's multiple colors in the port in place they need to come in and repair it they don't necessarily have to match the existing color they can cut a circle out and do a whole different color and kind of blend it in but I mean yeah that would be preferred especially if we're talking inclusive play I mean that is that's the way to go yeah but I mean if you're looking at a 100 square foot playground that's $300,000 of your budget yeah so it gets very pricey I think inclusive wise you know I think inclusive that's what I think um it's yeah hybrid the wood chips still go everywhere or wood chips in general just need to be led and breaked and moved and refilled well I'll be anxious to see what you all come up with we'll be anxious to see how much funds you can raise now that you're not on the planing commission oh yeah okay yeah I kind of talked myself into that any other thoughts on just general direction I'm hearing a lot of just kind of keep it classy nature you know traditional nisah um neutral-ish with a pop yeah um potential for changing the shape of the playground to go around the warming house um any other elements that we for sure want to have in our design I mean when talking about inclusive play just as just as important as the equipment having the correct seating the correct shade the correct visibility is all very important to the experience because you need the caretaker parents to be able to have a place be able to have visibility um need proper seating I've also heard the bathrooms um not just in this scenario but what type of bathrooms we put in and then General visibility to the bathrooms like existing right now you can't see in the doors so there's apprehension from parents to send their kids alone to the bathroom because I can't see them come in and out yeah and this is far down the road but I know that there are very few accessible bathrooms that actually have like a a lift in them um for certain you know kids with disabilities and those parents seek out those type of bathrooms they won't go to a certain Park if they don't have the right bathroom facilities not to say we have to have that in this park um but I know there's there's grants and funding out there for cities who are willing to go down that road it's not something we have to think about now but you know as we're getting a little bit further into the planning if we are able to provide that in a park like that even you know even better I don't know if it's required as of yet or if it's coming down the pipeline but adult changing tables where the table lifts up and down is coming down the pipeline yeah if it's not here already so yeah I I I don't think it's here but it's something to consider definitely because yeah I know there's even an app out there that helps parents find the changing tables that are throughout the the state and they'll pick certain playgrounds specifically for those facilities yeah I think equally important is our our supporting facilities yeah I agree well it' be nice if it was if this playground is like a des ation playground yeah that people really seek out in this north central part of of Minnesota because it draw it'll draw people into the community to spend money downtown and also say our existing bathroom is a far cry from what we want it to be when we have a destination playground people seek out ways not to use their bathroom it's it's not the porta potties would be better think our natural like Green Space is just as important as the this space because I see kids playing in those trees all the time I see kids playing in the grass all the time they're not just playing on the playground so we have to maintain at least you know some sort of area for them to in interact with nature and I think tying it into the trails in the wooded area so um most of the the better established trails are off behind the softball field less so where the pickle ball courts would correct impact so I think tying all of that into whether it is an actual path to it or signs or you name it but yes giving them Green Space um wooded space for them to interact with nature in their own creativity I don't think many people knew those Trails existed I I didn't know they existed until just they're not year ago so make it you know more signage to direct people to them so they got a short walking path hours on those trails did you oh yeah yeah I mean because you first of all like all the animals that are back there and probably yeah um when it's Monarch season there's a lot of opportunity to watch them grow oh so great yeah I think we have a lot of really good ideas and perspective and have heard the community in a lot of ways and so I think it'll be important to keep those at the Forefront of our mind as we start dialing this in and um kind of go from there and if we need to go back to the community for more input or um check in with them we'll kind of keep that on our radar as well I will um relay this information to them and hopefully we will have an initial design to kind of react to here in February um that was kind of the goal even though we don't have a full budget or an exact container size um I think it'll be good to just start getting some things on paper for us to react to um any final other thoughts is our goal to have all of the elements that are in this um little grouping here the spinning the multi- sensory play The Swinging the music is or do we need do we have to give them some guidance on which of these elements we really want to see I mean I think they have a understanding of what an inclusive destination Park should include at the minimum um and we can kind of add takeaway rearrange you know it'd be nice to get a preliminary plan to to at least have a visual and then we can work off of that I know I think that would help us yeah um I know that they're willing to redo the design and um they understand that it's never going to be a one and done design yeah I think some of them are really large play elements that are you know and that at some point we might have to make some tough decisions on one over the other just based on space and I think some of them are smaller where it's like just a panel that's like at the top of a slide and like that's your sensory like one option for a sensory or you can have like the little picnic table underneath the slide that they can do their imaginative play kind of thing is there a way to survey like what's around us like and what isn't around us you know what I mean like when you do get to the besides I'll give you a clipboard yeah exactly I mean sure um but I think like if we are picking one big element we should probably pick something that is not available 10 minutes down the road or 15 minutes yeah there's really not that many inclusive areas in the I mean surrounding area brainer schools put in uh an inclusive playground or some elements of an inclusive playground that has few of these elements but that's in a kind of a school not that it isn't open to the public but it's in a school setting yes yes at that little park that's hidden right in um there's like a community um we call it the hidden park I don't find Trails yeah maybe off of 18 yeah just right over there yeah this spinner exists and this spinner is up in peat yeah and I think specific like looking at what the school has um caring off of that um yeah some of the bigger Parks you know everyone loves cross Lakes they're like take a lot of pointers from them um think they have a good amount of space that they have variety there that people appreciate um obviously peat's close and you know there's several in backer and brainer so but no I don't think we have to decide here today um I think some of these guiding things will help give them away and then eventually we're going to have to really Define our space and our budget which we're not quite there yet yeah so okay well if you guys have any other thoughts let me know um otherwise that's my hope is that we'll have something to kind of review in February [Music] um but I will pass this along for the time being if you guys think there's other things in terms of planning as well that you guys would need information for let me know um but I think based on where our funding is at and the timeline of the grant we're not um needing to really prank things out okay there's no other thoughts our next meeting is February 6th I want to thank Paula for her eight lovely years hanging out here first Thursday of every month plus the GOC Trail wasn't always here wasn't always here but A lot's happened in the last eight years it has but we've got uh the niswa park the goag trail the master plan done the new park over and uh off of Camp Lincoln Road so yeah a lot has happened a lot of good work has been done so thank you for your contributions in good hands Bruce will bring a lot of from what I've read of your resume you bring a lot of strength to this group so welcome and um I'll be keeping an eye out we'll see you on the trails yeah hopefully so I hope so too since I live right very close to okay there's nothing else motion to [Music] adjourn so mov second second meting adjourned I don't