##VIDEO ID:7H9u0lu7TXk## e e e e e e e e all right it's 5:116 we can call the workshop to order roll call please council member Cole here council member schwe here council member Wong here council member nordby here mayor mongi here can get a motion to adopt the agenda please so moved so moved council member swe second second council member Norby all those in favor say I I I thank you topics thank you mayor uh one topic on the agenda for this evening it is the 2025 budget uh and Levy budgets certify Levy discussion turn that over to our finance director Dan Winnick mayor council members good evening good evening good evening so we had a pre-budget kickoff meeting we've heard from all the department heads and now it's your opportunity to really look at all of the information that's been presented to you up to date and I'll you know kind of walk through stuff here with a PowerPoint um and it's for you to kind of set where you want to be at with that maximum Levy um again the maximum Levy needs to be certified so tonight I need to get that direction so we can get all the uh resolutions prepared for September 17th so we can certify it to um Ramsey County um again it's a maximum Levy um what that means is that we can't go up but we certainly can drop the levy down before we make our final approval in December um and right now um we're scheduled I think the second meeting in December is when we would have uh the final approval of the 2025 budget um and all of the the documents associated with that um so kind of walk you through where we're at uh tonight we're going to kind of cover uh the 2025 budget calendar the proposed Levy of what you've seen so far property tax impact property uh the proposed general fund budget the proposed H and Eda levies um some budget options that have been presented before um some unknowns that we still um that could really you know face our our our decision here tonight um as we move forward um and then open it up for some discussion you can interrupt me at any point in time and ask any questions um as we're going through the presentation because this is really um your meeting to kind of give uh staff the direction that we need to set that maximum Levy um you've been handed out three additional Pages um there's never any stop in looking at the budget um and trying to come up with ways to reduce the levy and the impact that it has on our residents and so um Brian and I have uh thoroughly discussed some other options options some of the options that we've already presented before a couple of new ones um that we feel pretty comfortable and trying to get that Levy down uh maximum Levy it still leaves some options um for you into the future as we have further discussions um but we'll get into to that too um the budget calendar at a at a very high level uh for the budget calendar that's where you're seeing the September 17th is is when we're going to certify the uh proposed uh 2025 property tax levy um in October um through November we we will cover the CIP Enterprise funds internal service funds and special Revenue funds um we have a truth and Taxation hearing that'll be done on December 3rd and December 17th we will approve all of the final budgets um including the capital Improvement program um it'll show you kind of the detail of what we've covered um and today's continuation of any budgets noted above but we've gotten through all of those so really tonight is really City council's uh discussion and direction to staff for that maximum Levy um 17th again we'll approve that maximum Levy with resolutions and then on October 1st we're going to start getting into the capital Improvement plan all department heads will be present at that meeting um October 15th we'll go through with the Enterprise funds um we're we will need one special in uh the week of November 12th um Jenny will start to reach out to council members to try to schedule something up on that um where we will disc discuss internal service funds and other U budgets that we uh that the city council needs to approve um November 18th is a a continuation date if there's any other um budgets that we don't get through or there's any other discussion and again we'll be looking for direction to staff uh we'll have a truth and Taxation public hearing on the 3D and then final approval on the 17th so right now where we're at when we combine the the city the HRA and the Eda were at a 9.88% levy increase um that City Levy um component is 9.62% of that increase um if you remember our pre-budget meeting um we were at a very high level doing some estimates before department heads had submitted all of their budgets we were looking at about a 7.6% estimated Levy Levy increase a number of things that have changed why increase is there is a um a different cost of living increase that's currently in your budget um later on tonight you'll have an executive session where you'll be informed um by the city manager and the City attorney of where they're at with Union negotiations what they've heard from there um I think you're going to hear some pretty high numbers or information into that um got to caution you that it may be more than what we have in the budget um and so that's where we want to be a little cautious on how much or how low we go here on this maximum Levy because again we can't go back up um but we can come come down from there um but this is kind of where we're at um right now with that 9.88% um another big change that we had was that we were presented a Street Maintenance budget that kind of put up more money on our um pavement rehabilitation program um that changed our our Levy from the 2% to 3.5% um so that added quite a bit of that increase so the 9.88% when you start taking into consideration those two factors really kind of justifies where we were at with the 7.6 very early on yet Brian and I are city manager and myself are not happy with that and we've come up with again some kind of proposals for you to kind of look at to kind of drop down that maximum Levy but again the final decision is up to you tonight but I am going to hold you to giving me direction so I know exactly um what to prepare the information for for the maximum Levy um right now just some preliminary information from um some cities that are in Ramsey County these are the levies that uh they're Levy increase that they're looking at and you're seeing the low of s Anthony at 4.65% all the way to light White Bear Lake that has a 15.7% levy increase um we're we're kind of kind of in that in that middle range um you can see the median 10.38 the average is 10.9 um so uh again we're we're not on the low Edge we're not on the high Edge um the changes in here that you're seeing in your 2025 budget you know our total uh Personnel costs um having it's been really the biggest driver um in our budget um and that's a making up that 4.6% of our Levy increase um we get a 1% increase when you look at all of our other line items supplies contractual services and and the capital component I got to give our department heads a lot of credit they and and the leadership that Brian gave to them in the direction he gave to them in preparing their budgets um they held it as tight as possible um even know um a number of costs have increased they made reductions in other areas to try to keep it as low as possible um we're going to be seeing um some transfers um reduction um of approximately 70,000 or 1% Levy decrease from our utilities that's part of that um you know that we don't do that special assessment um taking a 20% and trying to start to reduce some of those um transfers that we do from our utility funds into our general fund um buildings um you're seeing an increase or a l increase of 045 transfers the revenue part again um all other Revenue um you know is about a 1% Levy in is a reduction of about a 1% Levy um increase so if you look at everything above it comes about 6.5% and that's where you see some of the other big components to it the streets the parks um coming to that 9.6% um which is the city portion you add the HRA and the Eda and it comes to that 9.88 this is where we're at with our our debt Levy um we're seeing a a uh the 2016 B for the capital Improvement refunding that was for the City Public Works that will um be completely paid off um but we're going to end up having additional debt and the additional debt right now that's planned for 25 27 and 29 all relates to Street rec construction um programming so at that 9.88 um earlier this year we got to see what the median value on a residential home had changed the median value went from a market value of 299,000 to 33,500 only a 1.5% increase as you can see this is a little bit different than we've seen in the last three years where we've seen some big double digigit uh market value in increases so the market is flattening out um there was a legislative change that you're going to see in the next line the market value exclusion um and you can see that for residential homes that exclusion increases in 2025 quite a bit so I'll kind of read the legislative change for that that the change in Homestead market value exclusion calculation Minnesota statute 273.15 the ex exclusion is equal to 40% of the first $95,000 it was before last year and in the previous years at 76,000 then you minus 9% of the value between the 95,000 and 57,200 that's been raised from [Music] 43,800 um so for a homestead value at 57,200 or more you would get no exclusion so it you get 40% of that 95 and then it gets reduced kind of like on a sliding table until you reach that 517 so those thresholds have been changed it's actually quite quite amazing what it's actually done for our tax capacity for our local rate even though our taxable market value has gone up again not as significant as it has in the past 3 years our taxable Market our our our net tax capacity for our local rate has actually decreased um so if we were to keep everything else constant no Levy increase we would see our tax rate go up regardless and it's because of this market value exclusion has had that big of an impact onto it in addition um Ramsey County held a very nice meeting for all the finance directors in Ramsey County and their assessor was there there are a lot of pending petitions that are out there um which can have an impact so we always talk about at this point in time when the assessor does the values those are really preliminary values they're not finalized all the way until I think the end of November and then they become final values so again the values are here they can only go one way they can go down based upon petitions on there um I have not gotten a complete list of what's outstanding onto there and it doesn't really tell I've gotten a partial list but it doesn't tell exactly what um is being sought as a market value change there are a number of apartments that are are that are on that list which then could have an impact so if we end up having market value shifting down um you know in our Apartments um then the tax burden is going to be shifted over to our resident and because we have very little commercial um that's really our other category is is is really looking at the apartments outside of our residential homes um with this calculation then will take that factor into it come to a taxable market value and then it calculates it into a net tax capacity or tax capacity um we apply our rates from 24 25 and these are calculated based upon this 9.88% um Levy increase and you would see that that uh for a median value home in North St Paul that the property taxes for all three components for um the city would increase $110 um for the year um that's an 8.56% increase to kind of illustrate some of those impacts because taxes aren't just about one thing they're not just about Levy they're about market value they're about any legislative changes this kind of breaks down so if we take the final payable for 2024 for that property it's just under [Music] $1,300 um we were big Winners our pretty good siiz winners in the fiscal disparities pool our fiscal disparities money went up $231,000 or 18% from last year equating that to Levy that's over a 3% Levy changed to to get that type of money because we're at about $71,000 per every 1% of our Levy that's some of the things that I've been talking about for the past three years about you know when we Shi when I first came and shifted a market value um Bond um and and refinanced it into a net tax capacity Bond so it would raise our rate a little bit why because we're a winner on that fiscal disparities pool it happens the next year because the fiscal disparity pool uses your rate from the PRI prior year our levies that we've done to date have been strategically um planned by um our city manager and myself and city council has approved those to be close to that market value increase why because we want our rate to be holding about the same if not increasing to some degree why again because that'll help us in the fiscal disparities pool so in other words we got I'll we got 3% of a levy of free money um through that fiscal disparities pool um and you can see on this home that that actually reduces that tax $54 uh that change in Homestead exclusion benefit um again has a you know on this property had a great impact you know it's reducing that property tax by $40 uh the change in value for local rate it increased $29 and that's where I'm saying that even though our Market values have increased our net tax capacity for the local rate has decreased which has created that it actually increases the property tax for a property and then that median value increase of 1 and a half% increases 20% you take those three those are considered tax shifts outside of our control um it reduced the property taxes $44 then what's underneath the city council's control is the city level Levy and the other special taxing districts Levy and that's where this 9.88 will give a $147 increase in the city Levy and about $8 and the other for 155 now when they get their truth and Taxation notice all they see is what's over to the far right um but this gives you a breakdown for your understanding of the intricacies of the different things that end up happening um in the shifts that occur so if we had a lot more commercial property with that exclusion would have shifted the tax burden from residents to commercial properties um but again we don't have a lot of that so um we're seeing kind of a dual um impact you're seeing the reduction because of the the fiscal disparities and exclusion then you're all a sudden seeing an increase because of of the of the lower um value for the local rate and then again the market value changed to it the proposed general fund budget revenues by category again you can see that huge dependency on the property taxes or advolum taxes um you can see intergovernmental revenues um 20% you take those two and and we're sitting at over 78% of the revenue for our general fund fund is dependent on taxes and in the state of Minnesota um expenditures by category you can see the biggest driving component to it in the general fund is our Personnel costs which are you know 64.5% um that's that's a huge huge component that that uh that is in there and again that's really been the driving force in this budget this year and it's that cost of living and again later on tonight in the executive session you're going to hear about you know what has been proposed um to the city as far as cost of living increases and other such things through the union negotiations um our proposed Levy that all the department heads have gone through kind of shows you from a categorical standpoint again Personnel costs are 8% higher um contractual services are only 1% um those are really your big driving number factors that are changing um in this budget the proposed general fund budget if you look by departments again you've heard this over and over again if you take our Public Safety and you take police and fire and code that's your biggest driving Factor um in your budget you know which is which is about 59% of your budget is between those two departments um you can see um when you look at it from a recreation standpoint that's only 39% of our our budget um Administration is only 6% um Finance is only you know 3.6 um Street Maintenance is 12% um you can see everything else is pretty low it's those two are really kind of your big driving factors um of the general fund budget and again these are the numbers that kind of support those graphs that you you just saw um in the HRA where we've been at is that the HRA Levy would would be proposed to be $50,000 an increase of 39 for 2024 you've heard me say in a couple couple of occasions that really is proving out that we may not really need that in 2025 and so you're going to see that it was an option of maybe reducing that you're going to see in the new recommendation that um our city manager and myself put together that we are making that recommendation to you to to not increase that $39,000 at this point in time um the Eda um is keeping their Levy the same at approximately $21,000 these were some options that were proposed to you um to potentially lower that um Levy and uh the first one's an ad um and it's uh 1% additional for the parks and 1% Levy increase for buildings um unfortunately at this point in time uh we haven't gotten the final uh report for the facility assessment um we're going to be pushing for that so we can have that incorporated in there into our CIP so we can have those discussions in October but um I think from our indication of what we've seen it's higher than what we currently have had in our CIP we just need to know exactly how much that's going to be um and as soon as we know that I definitely can put together um city manager and I will discuss and we can put together some options that we can look at of how we would end up funding that um and then it was thrown out that um you know transfer or we could budget for it um that you know we we um have penalty charges um and also ve investment income um in the electric um uh def um fund we could look at all the utilities penalties um were something that were done for many many years um they were stopped During the covid period uh they were reinstated by city council um that went into effect January 1st of 20123 um we get a pretty consistent amount of penalty um paid each and every year um it's to the tune of about $130,000 um that's an option that that could be used to um fund some things in the general fund um it's not incorporated into the calculation for rates um it's not budgeted um and U so that's an option for city council to look at that could end up having a reduction um in the levy itself um we've talked about this you know updating of the downtown design manual um I firmly believe you've heard me say before it really shouldn't be coming from the general fund um it is currently in there I would take that out we we do need to have our Economic Development Authority agree with us that they would be the ones to fund it you heard um last week um from our community development director um Riley that um I was council member Wong that pointed it out that you know Eda is looking at uh you know a facade Improvement and yet that design manual has a lot of facade Improvement into it and um our community development director um and and myself had a conversation before we were going to go to the Eda that didn't happen on those lines um and his thought was that probably postpone that for a year and get that facility Improvement program up and running and we can learn so much more from that to incorporate it into whatever design that happens in the future um but that design of the downtown area really is an econom ecomic development type of authority study um because that's really our business district um and so um I'm hoping that they officially will will accept that um and and pay for that and then um you've heard me talk about the reduction in the HRA Levy if you were to do all of these changes um it would have brought it could bring our our Levy down to 700 or 7.12% of a levy increase now that's what we had proposed you I'm going to tell you right now I wouldn't do that all and the reason is because we got unknowns and we got some big unknowns that are out there again we have Labor contract negotiations and the impact don't know what they're going to be um I have a dollar amount of cost of living that's in our budget I can't say that out loud uh because Union negotiations are are are occurring um our city manager knows what that U percentage is if it's a lot higher that ends up getting settled uh we need to fund it some way um so I wouldn't use all of our options to reduce our Levy um because we're going to need something if it ends up being higher than that again the facility assessment report we don't have it yet um when we get those numbers in we have to be able to come up with some sort of way to propose to you of how do we fund that part of that may end up being increasing that 1% um in a levy so we don't want to reduce all everything and use it all up today and set our maximum Levy to a point where we have no room to end up absorbing some of these if we need it same thing with the park planning efforts um there's planning that's going on right now hga is looking at three Parks um there needs to be you know some more cost information to find out what that what that impact's going to be um and then you know we can run some some some plans um Financial plans based upon um whether it's their park dedication fund whether it's their park fund um is there going to need to be additional money somewhere else and again that's where one of the options um was to increase that Levy for the parks a percent um so I wouldn't utilize all of that because of these unknowns at this point in time and some of them could be Hefty um I don't know um that's why they're unknowns um so you're kind of in a diff difficult position um so tonight um what needs to occur is that we need your direction on this maximum Levy so I I I will cut right to the Chase and show you what U um our city manager and myself have kind of looked at and a lot of it's consistent with what we've been saying throughout our our meetings with the department heads so we're at that 9.88% um um I would take out that update of the downtown manual which drops at $60,000 I would take out that HRA Levy at this point in time um later tonight in city council you're going to get some information on our 2025 and there's information on our 2027 Street reconstruction projects um city council approved a contract with W SB to kind of do kind of I call it more of a pre-design get some updates those estimates on those projects you're going to hear tonight that the 2025 project is going up higher than the estimate but the 2027 is going to be down significantly from from what was in our CIP um and um Morgan from WSB will do that presentation to it he's done an excellent job he's got all of our documentation there so we incorporated that change um you know just get that change on Thursday here we are U City manager and myself have already thrown through all the numbers through through all of our stuff um and we'd be able to reduce that Levy for the streets from the 3.5 to 2.25 um percent um and still be able to maintain the plan that's out there for all the Reconstruction and the pavement preservation plan that Morgan Had presented earlier um I think it's a very important component we we've we've realized and we've been working on the past two years of trying to build that infrastructural funding and starting to build that cash to be able to do some of these things um if you remember city council last year took a very bold move um and you know they transferred $1.1 million from the electric fund to get this program working forward um this past year we Lev for this year we levied 2% now we're going to be moving it up a little bit you know a little bit more up to the 3.25 that's a commitment that the city council has made towards that infrastructure but run through the numbers with some of the savings that are coming in um through uh that project and you'll hear again you'll hear that later tonight and uh WSB will be seeking your approval to move to the next step of doing the final designs that very comfortable in moving that Levy down doesn't have the greatest impact but it it's something um and then uh just because we were so close I dug and dug and dug I wanted to get it down to an even percentage number um and could could increase the tax increment excess Revenue that we estimate estimate in our general fund um we could increase it about $20,000 we could bring this um maximum Levy to 8% there's a couple of items that I'm not touching at this point in time and that is do we do we increase um a percent for the parks and increase for the building I'm also not going to utilize the penalty or or investment income at this point in time if I look at those two amounts you can see that you know it's $100,000 that we could continue to to reduce a levy if we want I'm leaving it out there for those unknowns um and that'll be your decision I'm hoping for at a later date let's not make that now because we don't have enough information and again tonight in that executive session you're going to be hearing collectively as a group for the first time where those Union proposals are in um and they're going to have an impact on us and 25 six and seven um and so want to hold these off and defer these at this point in time as my as Brian uh our city managers in my recommendation and that we have at least some room to play because again we can't go up we can come back down and so if the impacts aren't as great we certainly can use that to to reduce the levy and we have plenty of time um remember the final approval of the levy will not occur until December 17th so if we were to run that and kind of look at that in the same two formats against that property tax impact you would see that it would have um a uh it'd be about $81 uh increase on this medium value home property or 6.26 and then again gave the same estimated breakdown between you know the fiscal gain on fiscal disparities changing this that um just so you can have that as a comparable data with an 8% vers than 9.88% with that I'm done with my presenting piece to it but definitely open for any questions and absolutely need your direction thank you very much I do appreciate you with what you presented here to us today what are your assumptions built into this with the inter funds for rates are there any changes assumed with this budget uh I think the only one right now um for Enterprise rates is um surface water and I've gotten it down to a 2 and a half% um rate increase versus we were at 4 and a half prior yet when we get into the Enterprise funds and we'll show you the financial plans and it's not a pretty picture um there's going to be rate increases that are going to be needed in the in the future years um so you will see that um to buy a lot of this down and that's where I was only focusing on um the penalty and investment interest only in the electric and not in the other utilities reason for that three of the other utilities water waste water surface water are all greatly impacted on every road project that we do so again tonight you're you're going to see um the estimates for 2025 and in 2027 um on our street reconstruction plans and there's four components there's basically your streets Water waste water surface water um surface water has you know I think we generate I think the total revenue for surface water is somewhere over I'll call it 1.1 million look at some of those estimates that are coming out I think in 2025 it's um I can tell you in 2025 it would be um $1.9 million um that we would have to bond for for just the surface water um in 20207 based upon the estimates would be about uh 555,000 those are some huge numbers for a fund that only generates $1.1 million in Revenue um so do to to I I know you've kind of spoken before of you know potentially you know what would be that impact if we if we could transfer we certainly can it's not going to end it um we are going to have to make rate increases somewhere down the road um so what I've tried to do at this point in time is to minimize the impact for 2025 so we can look at it a little bit closer and buy us at least a little bit of time to look at it moving into the future um and trying to address that but help me out here um you're the expert if we transfer penalty money from the Enterprise fund to the general fund and then do a rate increase doesn't that hurt tax disparity or wouldn't it be better for the average citizen to transfer the penalty money to a different Enterprise fund to keep the rate lower and then do thus keep our taxes parity higher overall wouldn't that be a net win for the resident certainly certainly will um absolutely the question that comes into mind is how high of a tax rate do we get to um and that's been kind of my own problem um in trying to do that and and again it's really you know City council's final decision but um we're second highest uh behind St Paul um that property tax has a huge impact um and I've heard it a number of times from from various residents that have come up here in the last three years that are on fixed incomes um property tax you know was established back many many years ago um it was built on the premise that land um showed value or wealth um that's because we were pretty much Farmland um that's all changed um so it it to me it's it's hard it's not based upon use um where a utility is based upon your usage um and that's just an argument I I don't have truly the answer I will say yes you're absolutely right the higher the rate the better we'll do in fiscal disparities and that's kind of why I want to defer that decision as until we go through the Enterprise funds and then you can make that final decision down the road that's why I didn't include part of that is because you have brought that up on um past occasions thank you I really do appreciate the explanation thanks Dan when I was looking through with the Enterprise fund was there one called I was trying to find a gravel what is that there was one oh there's not it's called gravel tax yeah what is that um we get a small amount of uh it's it's an aggregate tax that we get it's only about I can't remember even it's a pretty small amount um I was just curious to see was only only 500 or 300 and some dollars in there yeah I was just curious yeah there's there's not much but um it's it's pretty consist um and it's really it's it's an in lie of property tax um payment um for agregate and we don't have a lot of it but it was based upon the you know again it was more established more in the Iron Range um where you had big aggregate deposits that were done and instead of them paying property taxes it was based upon the the tonnage of their Aggregates and then they would calculate and remit um this payment in Lee of taxes I know some cities were doing the doing uh fund for roads out of the like an Enterprise thing like that too I don't know if that as far as a percentage or something off of um and prob um forget what kind of fund that is franch I'm thinking franchise oh franch um yeah we we do you know we get franchise fees from both um you know uh gas electric um you know we get it from um Comcast um there's for the most part it is already collected within the general fund um and then there's a portion of it that's used in our building fund okay thank you Dan um can you speak a little bit to um if you know what Ramsey County is thinking uh in terms of their percentage yeah they're in a two-year budget cycle I think they've already set theirs um last year when they did their two I thought if my recall is correctly I think it's either 5.7 or 5.9 Which is higher than it has been in the past few years for for them okay thank you a lot to do with labor as well I imagine yeah I'm trying to find out a little bit more information because they have not had a lot of uh cost of living increase um they've been pretty they've held theirs um you know in that two two and a half perc range um but I haven't seen what their numbers are coming out um up they did give some bonuses you know kind of one-time bonuses especially during the covid period um that was incorporated into their Union negotiations but they were one time other questions thoughts nobody else you want uh recommendations I would love recommendations I guess I have one more question oh sure sorry let's say we were all up here very happy with the 8% you could get us too you know in a perfect world 8% how much would you recommend as a buffer right now because we don't know about the UN Union negotiation contracts if if if we were very happy with this 8% would 10% be enough of a buffer in your mind 10% of what you said because of the con the stuff we're going to learn later tonight um not that it's finalized but if if we set the final at 10 hoping you could get to eight is that 2% enough of a buffer oh if you're were to do a 10% Levy versus an I think it should be I hope I that's all I can do with hope right now you got 9.88 is kind of the rough but I also think you have buffer here too by using those penalties so down it's and again if you look at the difference it's yeah it's not quite the 2% but so then that's added sorry that's added the 2% for the 1% for the parks 1% for the buildings mhm and that 8% so I do want to no it's not in the 8% those are other things that we would decide later on okay so the Delta between that 146 and that 249 which is a 1.4% levy change so to answer your question if it at at 8 I'm saying a 9 and A2 up here's hey I just thought this so it would be a 9 and a half would give that buffer that I'm thinking and if you said 10 yes I can accept that too well and I think it's important that we look at the uh the 2% the ad 2% dedicated to the CIP for the for 1% parks and 1% for the buildings Parks hasn't come and presented anything um Dan and I were in the meeting last week and we talked budget there also heard the um hga presentation and then during the conversation with budget um there was a lot of aha moments like oh we do have to plan for this Dan had to explain a little bit more into the budget and that's when we all I should say it had been determined that you know we need to have Riley in here to really explain what was created last year because a lot of there were a lot of deer in the headlight eyes per se so um I still think that from my perspective we look at that 2% but I don't NE necessarily think that it needs to be 2% um 1% for the buildings 1% for Parks I do believe that those can be brought down um and we can start somewhere so that 9.88 might work then the one that they had up at the top then to start with because that's almost that's what 1.88 higher than right okay so that's pretty close I also want to thank you for the because of the streets I see they're taking you know taking care of Margaret now we're getting some we're getting somewhere as far as some of the street that's always since I've been mayor some of the biggest issues we've had in our streets and I know getting rid of the special assessments and not raising anything really cut the legs out from underneath us so I'm very happy that we're working our way back and I want to keep that momentum going with the streets I don't want to you know I want to keep that so we're not going to run behind you know get behind the eightball again so you know that little bit of a of a of a cut to go from 3 and a half to 325 but you know we're still nowhere near I don't think what we need to keep our streets up is that a correct statement well I again I'm not the expert that can answer that but I can't say anything differently I use what has been given to us at at this point in time part of when we go through that CIP we're going to end up having Mar Morgan there just like we promised um to give kind of some more information on what you can move and change I don't know if he'll we prepared at that point in time to make a recommendation to go even higher um you know at this point in time um it may be something down the road that that you I mean increment up yeah um so I yeah I I I defer that to The Experts um I do want to give a a Kudos and a shout out shout out to uh Ron and and Randy with the public works um Department because um they're the ones who who have to deal with all of these road projects and and uh I kind of want to coin a coin a phrase that that Ron says kind of half-heartedly it's like if you give me no money I'm perfectly fine with that because that's less work that I have to do and and so to to watch those those two gentlemen running here and there and here and there checking on this checking on that issue after issue after issue um yeah so um and they just do an excellent job and they deal with everything um so well but they're the ones who deserve the credit and then um wsbb U deserves a credit in putting in you know plans together and helping us out with that so I just like seeing us going in the right direction because that's the biggest thing the city and I think we're heading in that right direction yep we just got to keep the momentum up and the tough part for um and that was part of the a major part of the conversation for um the city manager and myself is that we're heading in that right direction um we feel very good about that um we feel good about where um the budget is and it's the balancing of impact on residents versus how much do we push in heading in that direction um and so at the end of the day it's if I don't have that information that I can substantially point to and say here it is I can throw the throw this through something I can't make that recommendation to do that um you certainly can I I can't give that to the city manager to say you know move at a higher Levy if you want to make that maximum Levy that 9.88 at this point in time because we do have a lot of unknowns um you know council member schw is absolutely right we met with the parks um commission um she did a splendid job that night in trying to um she's got a number of new members um and trying to um explain and give direction to them and and uh put them on a on a pretty uh Fast Track and gave them homework that they had to come back and be prepared for the next meeting to to be able to have that conversation but yes Riley needs to be a part of those meetings um and Sarah did a a bang up job and and leading that Parks Parks group but I think at the end of the day we're we're going I mean it's I don't think it's going to be a surprise when we're going to find out that we can't afford everything that our our Park system wants no different then I don't think we're going to find out that we have enough money for our facilities and I've been saying that for for many years on both points um just like I did with streets um but we're moving in the right we made more progress on the streets than we have in those other areas at this point in time so I'm comfortable with wherever you want to go um remember we set the maximum we can always come back down should we just go around and talk number do you mind starting us my my number would be at 10 hoping you know hoping we're close to that 8 but but we to me we said it at 10: without knowing what the union talks we're going to here tonight but that would be my number okay so you be that 9.88 huh 9.88 10 even 10 oh I love it I'll go even 10 as well thank you I um actually I'm going to go a little bit higher and do 10.25 I say that cuz I would like to see us not decrease on the street and remain the same um of unsure with the uncertainties of tonight um and then I'd like to revisit this parks and buildings and I want to raise it higher with the the 2% that's there knowing that we can play with it and move it we move that one around can always go down can't go back up so you're looking at that 10. 25% okay thank you ccil member Co yeah I don't think we need to be that high I would my number would come in at probably about 8.5 looking at um when I was looking at nine and a half so pick a number yeah well then I don't disagree I go with i' go with 10 with the other three then I mean it's or other two sorry I'm not very good with math here well 10 it is I'm not in alignment but it's we're that's for the max the maximum for the maximum for the maximum because we we still have to face the residents and we tell them it's going to be 10% and if we come down at 8 does it look like we're doing our job thank you for your input anybody else want to add anything else to that still comfortable with your number I I am I mean unless you can wait till after tonight's meeting to get a number from us to to me it's a closed session tonight that's given me the yep information I don't know if you can wait till after that to to get that guidance from us I'm okay with that but without having the information we're going to learn at the Clos session and I think that's valid to say that here I mean it's to set it at 10 have the community understand none of us do know what's going to what numbers we're going to see this evening and to shoot for a lower number this is the absolute highest right now we can go lower yeah Community knows that but we have to report something to the state just just to remind you I've said this before that when you set that maximum Levy that that is what your truth and Taxation statements come out as so that's even if you go lower somewhere else um down the road that's where you're going to hear from the residents on whatever that maximum Levy is because that's what they're going to see as the impact that there're coming um toward you know to them um so um I I don't disagree um at this point in time they want to have that uh latitude that's available to you um I'm going to just say to make my life a little easier if you really want to do tan liches use it at the 9.88 since all the documentation is already set that way um but if you want to come lower I totally understand that I think that there are a couple of items here that I you know um you know being the at least the the D the downtown design of the $60,000 which reduces it 82 that you know you could be at 9.06 and again we're just cutting hairs at this point in time but um so so guess I have one more question how tonight how tonight works we go into a closed session then we go back into an open session and a journ right where's the lawyer but so so are we able to give him a number after the Clos session before we adjourn because negotiations are still going on we can't give anybody numbers yet right because they're still in the middle of it got numbers back from building us yeah so they're just kind of getting what the first ask is out of this correct so we just got the first ask and now it has to negotiate on our side with their side correct correct okay so then this is just pretty much just their initial number and then we have to go back as a city now after we talk as Council and decide is what number we would like to see and then you it goes back to bargaining correct correct okay and that's where it would be then Council M mcco your number was again I want 85 why because I think that there's there's room in the budget um I think that a number was put in front of us that probably assumes some of the increases greater than what we probably started talking at um and I have uh a list of items that would generate revenue for the city that would be able to bring the bring the number down from that love to hear it okay yours was the loss that's why I asked then when do we hear that from you as far as I know afternoon down the road when we start okay and I I don't have firm numbers on everything yet um I'm still working with staff to to to gain some numbers okay any any to make it easy I'm happy to change my number to 988 rather than 10 I appreciate you bringing up that truth and Taxation kind of spaced my mind a little bit but that's that number can be a sticker shock for some individuals when they see it and then the levy going down significantly can be also be like well you told me this so yeah this is where we're supposed to try to get as accurate but it's tough because I've talked to other Mayors in negotiations and some of the numbers they're coming back with are are huge yeah even the numbers we've heard from other cities they've said that there's probably going to be some reductions in some of them as well so still unknowns for all the cities the 9.88 it is all right I'm comfortable you go with it that that works it's kind of like gas even though you got that 99.99 behind it just makes you feel really good that you're not getting screwed by that oneth exactly I'm glad you see it my way so 9.88 um is what I'm hearing um documentation will be um put together with that as resolution and again you can definitely go down yep um One Last Shot yep um Council recall has talked eight and a half um we put together Brian and I came with an eight we showed you the options to it um all I need to hear is no want that 9.88 and we're good and leave it there for now 988 yes please y counil okay and I and I on my side too I think it's also means we're going to sharpen the pencil I mean right now that's worst case scenario and that's what you have to do when you don't have all the information but is what everybody's come up with here with different scenarios how to be able to trim that is what uh is what I'm excited to hear because it's not like we're we're um comfortable or fine with a 9.8 nobody is you mentioned at the beginning you and the city manager that's too high but we have to have somewhere and if there's an emergency like like your house you have an emergency fund if you need it you know hopefully you don't use it and that's kind of how I see this if there's absolutely a disaster where we have to do something but everybody's going to sharpen the pencils and do the best they can to get down all right 9.88 thank you I thank you very much I know this is tough you've done a lot of work to date for the budget we still have a long way to go um as we go through so many other fun um things and and again the CIP is going to be a big one um but in the levy component to it the only component that's really in the um CIP is is the um Emerald Ash boore program which we're going to we've been funding historically in the general fund and then the $6,000 so the CIP really doesn't have an impact um on this except for potential Levy changes in um parks and um facilities so okay I'd love to get a number someday what the emerald has cost us overall just because I mean it's just their trees and who knew 10 years ago that the emerald was going to turn on you and have the disease and how much money that cost just as an unplanned thing I'll have a bit of an update later in the meeting me thank you Dan appreciate it thank you thank you very much yes all right that is done any other business further if nothing else asked for adjournment please so move so move council member Cole second second council member Wong all those in favor say I I I thank you which Wong that's why I did it to prove that I could say the right one or did it because I wouldn't have to --------- ##VIDEO ID:xXMLfVKFsAk## e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e you know what I'll be honest I think I'd rather be cold than hot CU I got here all right I got the thumbs up so we're going to start 6:30 well stand for the Pledge of Allegiance please I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for it stands one nation under God and indivisible with Li and justice for all thank you very much roll call please council member Cole here council member schwe here council member Wong here council member nordby here mayor mongi here I have a motion to adopt the agenda please so moved so move council member schwe second second council member Wong all those in favor say I I I thank you proclamations thank you mayor we have one Proclamation this evening uh which is for constitution week so whereas the constitution in the United States of America the guardian of our liberties embodies the principles of limited government in a republic dedicated to the rule of of Law and whereas September 17th 2024 marks the 237th anniversary of the drafting of the Constitution of the United States of America by the Constitutional Convention and whereas it is fitting and proper to Accord official recognition to This Magnificent document and its memorable anniversary and to the Patriotic celebrations which will commensurate uh for it and whereas Public Law 915 guarantees the issuing of a proclamation each year by the president of the United States of America designating September 17th through the 23rd as constitutional week now therefore on behalf of the city of North St Paul um North St Paul and the mayor mongi by virtue of the authority vested in the mayor of the city of North St Paul do you proclaim the week of September 17th through the 23rd as Constitution week further it be resolved uh the mayor ask our citizens to reaffirm the ideals the framers of the Constitution had in 1787 by vigant protecting the freedoms guaranteed to us through this guardians of our liberties thank you very much it's an honor to do that thank you all right next up we have a consent agenda item a August 20th 2024 Workshop minutes Item B August 20th 2024 regular meeting minutes item C General claims of $ 78,3 34 item d h claims of $1,443 44 and item e Eda claims of $1,220 looking for resolution pleas yes so move C anybody want to pull anything first we good all right council member Cole second second council member Wong all those in favor say hi hi I thank you very much I apologize my computer locked up it's starting up again open to the public okay thank you so at uh 6:33 we'll be open to the public uh John schal good evening hi John everyone give you as the person the center of the Das oh I like it July 16th 2024 the end of the meeting there was a question that came from up here as to what happened to zoom and uh something was said they got rid of it the it was kind of hard to hear what was going on it was at the end of the meeting they got rid of it because it cost too much uh no information on the city newsletter I went back two additions they must be telling the people that Zoom is gone wouldn't that be the right thing to do but there was nothing and there was nothing in the newsletter even though it came out at the council meeting that Zoom was gone I don't know if there are any people that use zoom there has been a couple of times where there's been call in from the public and what I know of little computer work that uh I have the ability to do I don't think there is any way that the public can make a comment because you no longer say hey is there someone on the line you heard anybody say that in the last three or four meetings so I went to the that's what I gave you a copy is a screen print of the website that says you want to get on Zoom here is your link right here it's on the website I checked just before I came today I also checked clicking on the link nothing happened so is that how we treat our residents when they had the ability to input from their homes if they were disabled whatever they no longer have the ability to make a comment thank you thank you [Music] all right next up is uh City business action items and recommendations Brian I was curious we had discussed briefly before this meeting it's Mr Mayor members of the council it's my understanding that the council has simultaneously posted a meeting for the council at 6:30 on the H my understanding is the HRA is a rather should be a rather quick meeting I'm curious ious if the council wants to do a quick recess from the council meeting not an adjournment but a recess handle the HRI business and then get back into the city business um I defer to you on the order of operation but it might be nice to just clean up the HRA side of things sure we can do that so if there is a motion to recess the city council meeting to return immediately after the HRA meeting that would be in order okay I have a motion I'll make that motion Council s second second second council member Norby all those in favor say I I I thank you all right so if the record would reflect that the council meeting was recessed at 6:36 uh Jenny if you want to call to order the HRA meeting and run through that we can at this point okay uh commissioner Cole here commissioner swe here commissioner Wong here commissioner nordby here and chair mongi here all right we have one item uh for H action items and recommendations uh the item that we have on the docket is approval of the sale of the student buil house located at 2170 East Eldridge Avenue no one open up that's fine and we're just looking for resolution to approve that please so moved so move council member Cole second second council member schweer all those in favor say I I I all right nothing further mayor thank you can I have a call for adjournment so moved so moved council member schweer second council member Norby was it okay all those in favor say I I thank you I want to call the council meeting back to order yep Mr Mayor if there's a motion to uh uh call the regular city council meeting back to order at 6:38 that would be in order okay I have a call so moved so move council member schwe second second council member Wong all those in favor say hi hi hi hi thank you we're back at it thank you mayor City business action items and recommendations uh we have two items on the docket first up is the 2025 Street and utility Improvement projects uh report on estimates and authorize final design we have a city engineer here Morgan Dolly thank you Brian Mr Mayor members of the council uh this next item before you is a review of um the engineering progress to date in terms of uh defining scope of uh infrastructure improvements for the 2025 Street and utility Improvement project which is included in the capital Improvement plan uh you may recall that you previously authorized uh feasibility level uh preliminary design and estimate updates and so I'm here to present that information um the opportunity is here to continue working on the design process and so the action item that uh follows this for Council consider ation would be authorization of your Consulting engineer WSB to U keep moving from this point forward basically ultimately ending with uh prepared specifications and constru uh construction uh documents with which to bid the project go through bidding uh and sometime early in 2025 have real hard bids from a contractor again to present to Council in consideration for moving forward from that standpoint um I'll provide a brief overview I have some Graphics that are included in uh the packet uh but just to talk about the location really quick we're talking about um kind of the sou Southern and the Southeastern area and streets uh and utilities included in the uh Casey lake neighborhood um primarily Shaunie Drive Gerald Avenue and bule Avenue and there's some work within the park itself as well too um and the scope in a general sense is uh repairing and upgrading and full reconstruction of the streets also underground uh infrastructure water man sanitary sewer sewer Services um and there's a lift station and some Force main sanitary sewer Force main in the vicinity as well too so basically addressing all of those items to reset that infrastructure um clock I guess life cycle clock uh all of these things in one fashion or another have kind of lived their um usable life um there are uh from a sanitary sewer standpoint some of the things that were that needed to be done under Gerald Avenue were Advanced back to 20122 from a need standpoint so some investment was done ahead of time uh that will be excluded in this project because it's actually already been done but similarly some of the sanitary sewers underneath the other streets will be uh tackled at this time in 2025 or or proposed to be um there's also uh a requirement from the Rams Washington met Metro Watershed District to upgrade uh our San our storm sewer system and provide some water treatment there's currently a water treatment filtration Basin within Casey L Lake uh park at the head end of the creek which flows into the lake itself uh that area has um historically always taken some of the storm sewer runoff from our storm sewer pipes uh and then through that Creek conveyed itself into Casey Lake in 2014 there was u a filtration Basin that was again required by The Watershed district and so uh there's a need to meet permitting regulations for both the 2025 project and what is programmed within the capital Improvement plan for 2027 uh the strategy would be to try to do everything now at this time so that in 2027 we would not need to do any additional uh Watershed permitting work so it would be all kind of advanced in preparation for that we would achieve some credits if you want to call it that with the Watershed District to be able to achieve the permitting requirements for the next phase of the uh 2027 improvements uh this map that's in the packet this is just a project location map generally showing those streets that I outline line previously where um uh not just the streets but there's some again underground infrastructure Where the Line work shows within the park um very minimal work will be done on the uh parking lot itself for that kind of Eastern parking lot for Casey Lake Park um that has been sealed up recently and there was also uh previously authorized by Council from uh Advanced need standpoint because we were having some deterioration out there some of the drainage issues that we were seeing with respect to wood chips being washed across the play playground equipment that was done in 2023 uh so that's done already too so even though we've circled a lot I think there might be just just very very minimal work within the lot itself it's mostly going to be focused um on those roadway areas and the uh underground utilities also shown uh this next slide is an indication of some of the sanitary sewer improvements as I mentioned before in 2022 that orange uh North South section on uh Gerald Avenue that was previously lined for the mainline sanitary sewer in 2025 we would actually work to improve just that uh initial portion of the individual services to the homes that's just underneath the road um that's a a strategy that's been employed by North St Paul previously even though the Sewer Service are a private responsibility the protection there for the city is with a significant multi-million dollar investment in the roads above we don't want to have any of those sanitary sewer Services collapsing in the short term and then needing to dig the road for repairs right and so uh there is some uh work done on those sewer Services uh not only on the other roads but also on uh on Gerald where the main line was lined previously so the services are are a separate and thing and that would be included in this project there's also again as I said um a force main which is that purple line there there's a sanitary sewer lift station in that corner of the park and so um that's due for again lining to protect the inside of that pipe a lot of times we see deterioration over time from sewer gases on the inside of the pipe so that would help reset that pipe without needing to uh dig it up for example so using trenchless methods to be able to repair that from an infrastructure standpoint um and then just manhole replacement too we have a new standard I think within North St Paul uh identified by public works that if we come across on this type of a project for a full reconstruct if we come across a manhole or a catch Basin that is old BL uh construction that it will be replaced now this is this neighborhood was put in in the early 70s uh late 60s maybe some of it and so likelihood that we might find some of those it's not necessarily every single one but if the entire road is being um excavated that's our opportunity to replace those on a structure by structure basis uh the next slide here is representing the water main and um basically replacing it uh in kind uh including the services out to the homes there is one addition I don't know if you can see my cursor here but this little segment here is connecting what is an existing dead end next to the wellous where we do have some drinking water quality issues um with the discoloration of the water high iron content and so what is proposed with this project is a loop a water M Loop which would connect bule Avenue to that dead end there and so what that would do is to help turn over and circulate the water to hopefully um mitigate some of those uh taste and odor and water quality issues that we're having in that specific location so that's why we're doing a little bit additional water m not just replacing existing and the final slide here uh is a representation of sidewalks so this is one neighborhood that was constructed when it was initially con conceived from development with uh sidewalks on most streets on both sides um there was an identified kind of deficiency or you know a lack of connection if you will I believe it's in the comp plan uh but it has been considered for uh some time here and that's shown in green the existing sidewalks which would be reconstructed so not a significant change there but a lot of them are old broken panels they're showing trip hazards so that would all be reset on the red sections um and then the green would be uh kind of a new connection so the folks that are within that part of the the neighborhoods would be able to then actually walk into the park and there's a connection to a asphalt Trail there within the park that would uh allow pedestrians to be able to get uh to and from that and then also ALS connection around the corner to mcnight Road uh and the the walkway that's there as well too so um that's an overview of the scope I think then I'll turn your attention to uh cost ES estimating um we had available budget left within the previously authorized uh budget that the council uh provided for kind of this feasibility initial estimation uh effort to be able to not just update the cost estimation in a more detailed fashion from what we currently have within the CIP um for both the 2025 project area and the 2027 project area so um I told the engers to go ahead and do that knowing that that would provide some benefit from a a financial standpoint from a planning standpoint provide a little bit uh of uh confidence in at least the next two years knowing that the previous estimates were more planning level estimates and the split between the two project areas was um I'm going to use the word arbitrary but that makes it sound um there was some thought that went into it but it's not line item by line item right and so this estimating opportunity gave us the ability to really provide that a more realistic split between 2025 and 2027 so hopefully what we're finding here today can be plugged into the CIP future budget discussions um bonding discussions financing discussions for Capital Improvement projects and that all as you know and have been discussing now through budget discussions it's all interrelated right so providing a little more clarity I think with these two project areas um will help and so in summary uh the total estimated project cost for the 2025 Street and utility Improvement project area uh is arrived at approximately $6.5 million 6,522 that does include some contingency for unknowns or unforeseen conditions during construction uh or risk during future volatile bit bidding conditions which we have run up against in the past uh as well as a very conservative estimation for indirect cost right so uh the idea here is to try to estimate conservatively high and then as we move through the process more unknowns are removed and more risk can be removed and hopefully we have a Engineers estimate prior to bidding that is fairly close and then once we get the actual bid numbers from the contractor we'll have a uh a much better idea that would be early in 2025 of what the total project cost still being an estimate but um much more refined even than what we have here today so that's slightly larger than what's in the CIP there's for the 2025 project area um the planning level estimate there was $6 million um however the nice thing in terms of looking at the two different project areas together uh there was a significant reduction um on the second area which was $1.5 Million so together there's approximately about1 million do less or it's not a savings but at least at least in terms of projected expense it's a million dollars lower with the two projects combined right and that also takes into account the fact that we have built in on the front end some of those uh Watershed District requirement improvements which would be constructed in the first of the two years right so um uh it's a good projection knowing that um at least from the accuracy level that we're able to do at this point that we think that it's going to be less overall uh to be able to deliver these two projects than what was previously in the capital Improvement plan um so with that again the action item and I cannot recommend because I am your consultant city engineer but um either Ron Richie Public Works Director City manager and as far as a recommended action WSB has put together a proposal for final design Professional Services which would if authorized by Council um kick off tomorrow B basically and um complete in early 2025 I think we're projecting I'd like to see January or February bidding uh try to take advantage of you know contractor's open schedule for next year as early as we possibly can and then represent those bids uh to council once we've received them I would come back to councel uh just before going out for bids to request Council authorization to um solicit uh bids sealed bids so you'll hear another updated estimate uh and another report on scope and that sort of thing at that time again January February time frame um but with that I'll stand for any questions and um yeah and if city manager has anything that you'd like to add I would just like to recommend that Okay resolution okay thank you so any questions happy to answer them from the council at this time do the residents that are getting the new sidewalk do they know have they already been contacted or is that part of this next phase um they we did do a round of public engagement in 2019 2020 and so the Reconstruction of the existing sidewalks and the additional connection there through from that that green area the dead end to mcnight and to the park that's always been a part of the scope of the project um however we're we're about due for another round so another uh we've been holding virtual open houses and and sending information out so that would be a part of kind of that this next uh area of scope to provide some additional information so people know what to expect um and there's another phase of that or another uh in case somebody misses it or they're not able to come to the meeting we always do another uh round of those right before construction starts so that would be in like April or May or something like that so um we will get more word out as time goes on I have a clarifying question um in regards to the sidewalks the legend says existing sidewalk um that's the red color and then the proposed sidewalk which is what you're just discussing um as for the um existing sidewalks I just want to clarify that that is within the scope of this already like when when the street is going to be redone there will be a new sidewalk added yes that's correct I one caveat is that I think we were trying to illustrate the connection on mcnight road but mcnight road is a County Road and so this project wouldn't kind of extend in even though it's shown in red that portion would not be reconstructed but in two parts the 2025 project and the 2027 project which would take uh the rest of massabi and Chisum uh if you will that's when that part would be done but yes to answer your question that is included in the scope and estimate uh for this 2025 project it would really be the green areas adjacent to Shaunie Drive the connections to the dead ends uh I think it would I think we'd get up to Gerald and then both sides of bule right and then uh the logic behind the split between the two is that we want contractors in 2027 to be able to come in and out on Gerald off of Raditz and notop drive on our brand new shaie for example right we want to provide a route for construction vehicles to drive uh not on our two-year-old roads in 2027 right so that's why we're stopping at that point Thank you just dead ends there those sidewalks huh right there where the red and the green connect more or less yeah I know there's a big hill there's a hill that goes down that way and it's so close to the park it was just kind of an odd spot to to to stop there be nice to be able to connect that correct um I have another question this is mainly probably more for Ron or Brian um and because I have a similar situation do we get many complaints from that um roundabout where the water dead ends about their water quality and is there anything we can do if we do get complaints is there anything that we can do to help mitigate that during this project I know for me living on a dead end it can cause issues okay so yeah so there in case the that didn't come across on the mic so there is a what we call a flushing hydrant it's basically a device that allows water to recycle but it's just discharging it above ground um to to flush out some of that water that may be more stagnant and you know picking up color odor something like that um but that's not going to be as permanent a fix is actually providing the loop that's proposed in here um and so the uh flushing hydrant that's currently in place now can be removed and repurposed maybe in a different area of the city I'm confused I'm not seeing any correction to that dead end on this project I should flip to the water sheet there uh right there so currently it's dark blue and maybe it's hard to see but uh there's a hydron on the end and connection to the wellhouse and that's where the water line ends now and so the light blue is actually a new connection that comes through this easement area and connects into bule Avenue I was looking at the other roundabout uh left and up a little bit right left left oh up here more left oh the culdesac CAC oh okay um do you have a flushing hydron on that one too you do okay we so when we get to the 2027 project I think we can certainly look at the feasibility of being able to directionally drill a a connection through from the culdesac to Chisum uh but it's all going to depend on lot lines and proximity of building foundations since the development wasn't really set up to allow for a pipe between two buildings for example so if it's possible we certainly would want to try to tackle that again trying to take care of uh you know dead in there um and so it's an opportunity but I guess I wouldn't be able to promise right now that it would be feasible until we get to that point two years from now to look at it in more detail okay thank you is this common on CeX H I think that it depends on the length of the culdesac right so kind of a normal what I would say a normal culdesac of uh 10 to 12 to 14 to maybe 16 homes um sometimes you don't you know people don't notice anything um sometimes they do a lot of times it has to do with the age of the pipe right and so when you're you have older cast iron pipe that might be from the late 1960s or earlier a lot of times there's iron deposits that can kind of build up on the inside of the pipe that iron can um dissolve into the water especially if it's if the water's not moving but if the water is more slow to move um I want to avoid the use of the word stagnant because it's certainly not stagnant but um but the slow to move water in an older pipe is going to be more apt to pick up some of those things that folks might um uh not expect in their water right and usually there's nothing there's not a health related issue it's a taste issue or it's a odor issue um and so kind of moving that along with the with a loop or a fleshing hydrant is kind of how most cities uh deal with that okay um but yeah longer than that longer than uh you know I don't know uh 250 to 500 feet sometimes it becomes a little bit more of an issue but primarily I guess in my experience it's more related to the age of the pipe pipe okay thank you if there's nothing else quick go did you have one quick question the easements that come off a Bru um as well as the the the one easement that comes off a mohawk are those intended to connect the streets in the in the um residence to the park or are they easements for um I see the one that's running between 2190 and 2200 as the proposed new location for water MH um you've got a red line running between 2138 and 2146 but I didn't see it on any of the subsequent Maps my question is is that going to be sidewalked no or paved not proposed to be we did look at that there have been uh over the years at least one request from a resident to look at that uh Public Works did look at that um in terms of the ability to make that a safe um paved non non vehicular connection from bule to the park which is got to be at least 20 to 30 feet a relief you know so bu is up higher and the park is down below and and you're covering that that amount of distance in the depth of a normal residential lot you know 150 ft or something like that it's a very steep grade um it's certainly fine as a you know I don't know if they're mowed by public works right now but people do use it as a foot path I think that's perfectly acceptable once you start calling it kind of a designated way into you know U into the park especially a paved way uh you have to start thinking about people riding bikes down it um roller blades and there's really the the trail uh that runs East West at the bottom of the hill is right there at the end of the trail and so it really doesn't lend itself to in my opinion a a safe connection based on the steepness of the grade between the two points so they're more utility ements than they are any than they are actually I can't speak to the original intent but they certainly uh can and should if they can be serve in that function much like what we were talking about a future um you know loop I mean that's an area where we do have some space where if there is an underground infrastructure we can use that use it that way and put it back to grass and if we can um it make it a little bit more amendable to as a foot path we certainly can look at those kind of detailed improvements as we get closer through the construction but it's certainly based on that prior review and the prior request it's not planned for like a a concrete sidewalk or a pave Trail or anything anything thank you so I'm still lobbying for the walkway between 11th and 13th on the west side of what do we call it now target pond um whatever the still lobbying for that too so that was why that was brought up the question Fair any other questions if not can I have a motion for adoption for so moved we'll move council member Cole second second council member Wong all those in favor say I hi hi thank you appreciate it uh next up is Item B with the city attorney discussion on the office of state auditor response that we got from them I'll turn that over to attorney mic thank you Brian uh mayor members of the council uh in your packet uh is a um report conducted by the office of the state auditor um in regards to an investigation that it per performed regarding North St Paul and some of your spending practices um I can touch on it at a high level hopefully you've had a chance to review it it was issued last year so I think in part what has been requested uh by the council is just sort of an update where we at is there anything more to do what were the findings and then generally if there's questions um I'll try and address them there was a uh a complaint issued with the state auditor about some of the city's spending practices the auditor did look into that uh and then ultimately issued the report uh that's in your packet the city did cooperate fully with the uh report uh was aware of some of the problems and what I can say is did correct some of the problems uh that were mentioned in the report the report isn't wasn't a clean bill of health for the city it showed that the city was uh spending money and not properly documenting it which is what I'd say was the prevalent theme throughout which causes concerns because as you well know the city can only spend money on proper public purposes and things that are statuto authorized as the stewards of the Public's money uh you have money that is compelled by them via property taxes and so there's an expectation that you safeguard that money and properly account for it what the auditor found was that a number of the policies that the city had in place were not being strictly followed uh I think the primary concern surrounded use of the credit card and then providing receipts to verify those expenses um the city while the investigation was going on did in fact um produced many of those receipts not all of them uh but did produce them during this time Brian and I and Dan did meet to go over hey what do we need to do to tighten this thing up a little bit um or quite a bit and I think that it generally fell into about three different categories first of all was hey we have policies in place it's not as as if we didn't take the time and care to put the policies in place but they're only as good as they're inforced and what we found was uh that an upper at an upper level uh the the policies weren't being enforced and abided by and so it wasn't just one individual there was somewhat of a culture if you will of not providing receipts as as diligently as you should and so the city had to take a look at that and do some training and reminding that hey this is serious we need to do that second was um not only the documentation but um education on those policies um so in addition to collecting those receipts was backing it up for a moment and saying well we're going to if if we're not following these policies is it is it because we are just have chosen not to follow the policies or is it because people don't know about them and I think there's there was a little bit of both in some respects when you you get a bit casual on some of these things it it permeates and so there was an effort uh by staff to make sure that they themselves were educated about the policies understood them and then candidly created a zero tolerant zero policy aspect towards those policies and started to enforce them immediately candidly even before uh the state auditor report came out finally the uh report did show that there were some deficiencies in our policies or areas that we could do better on and so the staff took that seriously they did not push back on that and said okay let's take a look at it let's open it up let's see how we're currently doing business and let's make sure we have a policy to reflect not only how we're doing business but how it needs to be done correctly and so uh the staff did Implement some of those policies modify some of those policies I think later on this year you will still see some other policies as it relates to spending uh to uh re continue to refine that um so that we'll be coming to you in terms of what staff did beyond that um Brian and Dan and I met and just took a look at it okay the state auditor report did not necessarily find that there was theft or fraud or anything like that but we have undocumented expenses what what do we know about these expenses and so we did uh to the best of our ability look at where the money was being spent and we could not find any instances of theft and or fraud what we found was a bunch of undocumented expenses that were legitimate City expenses but just poorly documented so we have attempted to correct that so I think the good news is is that while the record should have been kept better and reimbursements could have been done a lot better I do not believe or there's no evidence at this point to suggest that there was any inappropriate expenses I think the state auditor did talk about hey it looks like some of these things would be bought online and then sent to a person's home uh any of those items we were able to find that they ultimately came back to City Hall I think it's important to remember that some of this did occur during the covid time um when City Hall was not always open or we were just trying to figure out how to manage certain things um that certainly isn't the best practice and we all understand why uh it shouldn't be done that way but I do think it's important to keep in mind with the backdrop of covid what was going on um beyond that there was questions about well why do you need this or why do you need that we did look at I think there was purchase of certain apps for technology um you know was there the best documentation on why those apps were needed uh probably not did it appear that they're being used for City Services yes it wasn't as if someone was using City funds to buy themselves certain programming or apps uh at least not that we could find so with that we did not find that it was necessary to re try and recoup any of the funds um that were spent or that the state auditor noted the report was and from my understanding and communication with the state auditor uh the report is at this point closed there is no further outstanding investigation I did have the the report was forwarded to the Ramsey County Attorney's Office for their review uh to see if there's anything criminal in nature what I can tell you is they are not pursuing anything they didn't see anything um you know certainly we have an ongoing duty to report so if if something did come up or we did find something later on we would need to report it and we stand ready to self-report on this um so that's the nature of the report uh at this point we have haven't done any additional work other than the policies that I Know Dan and Brian are working to fine-tune um we've done a lot of the heavy lifting on the report on updating our policies updating training and then kenle what I think the report says the most is you can have all the policies in place but you you have to understand them and enforce them and be sincere about it and I I think that culture is has changed um in this instance so with that I can certainly stand for any questions um I've been working with Brian and Dan on this I've been impressed with the city's response it's unfortunate that it has to be called out like that um but we take candidly no issue with the findings in terms of the accuracy of what they found also there there were some changes that needed to be made so I think the good news is that the money wasn't spent necessarily inappropriately the bad news is you did a really bad job of documenting how that money was spent and it needed to be improved and I believe the city has so with that that's it's a long document we can get into any details you want but at a high level that's what the document says that's what it found um and that candidly is what the city did in response even before we got the report and certainly after we got the report that i' I'd stand for any questions I don't have any action items requested at this point I think there was just a request for something that had been discussed for a while let's put it out in the open see what what else needs to be done if anything i' stand for any questions thank you saen appreciate it yep any questions at this time I don't have any questions I just um have a not for saurin but are we documenting and having an acknowledgement form for all employees that any policy that we do have or we change is there an acknowledgement or a document that is signed and placed in the employees file to hold them accountable for understanding that this policy has changed or they acknowledge that they do we do have that place okay that was one of the things we discovered is that was not in place perfect so we have remedied that or we've attempted to I believe that has been remedied though I I do have a question for you um as a new I still consider myself a newer council member as a newer council member what Duty or responsibility is it upon all of us sitting up here to oversee and if there is any how do we do it that the city staff is following policy so in a city manager form of government I would not expect this Council and candidly would tell you that I don't believe you can or it's a best practice for you to get granular and go make sure that certain claims are having the receipts that is not this council's job in my opinion I do think when these reports come back um the city manager reports to you and if there are inadequacies to me the accountability starts with the city manager and so I think when you learn upon this I think one it is imperative for local government to be cooperative with any investigation there is an assumption that this is an open book um two to honestly and forthright look at what's being recommended and what the claims are um and to do your due diligence to get to the right answer not necessarily the popular answer but the right answer uh um and after that there is always the okay what are the accountability metrics that we're looking at here and that I think is ultimately where it comes back to the city council I really appreciate that for a teaching moment for all of us thank you so I was we acknowledged that there was an issue we took steps to take care of it and going forward we're in a better place is what we've pulled out of this I I believe so okay yeah yep I can tell you that you know in working with Dan uh on this and then Brian too but you know a lot of this from a finance director they they tend to be your picky people on hey this is how we have to follow it a city manager is trying to run multiple departments but this is right within Dan's area of expertise and there was absolutely no push back it's almost somewhat of a I don't know about a blessing but sort of a look yeah we should be doing this and and Dan did a nice job of stepping up and making sure things got implemented and you know trusting the city with the finances is one of the most Paramount things that we can do here and and that was not lost on staff very good thank you and like you said before you know us as a council you know have to rely and we appreciate um Dan and Brian stepping up and going through and just make sure there's safety nets and we're able to check this out and be accountable for all of us thank you and thank you Jenny because I know you have to also on HRM Implement some of these policies ined any other questions okay not thanks Sor thank you appreciate you now we can you know move on so thank you yeah if I could just put a bow on it I I think there have been sort of these ongoing questions what are you doing what have you done I think from a staff perspective at this point we consider it finalized I don't think if there's certainly other things we need to make you aware of we will um but at this point we've received the report we have followed up internally with what we're going to do we've talked to the outside agencies that were involved um candidly From staff's perspective and mine at this point the item's final so I don't there won't be any other updates unless we receive additional information perfect thank you for that all right all right moving on uh reports city manager and departments uh at staff meeting today met with uh department heads uh the PD is having the memorial for uh police officer Richard kiten uh which is the 15y year anniversary of the tragic loss of life that he had uh so that will be this Saturday from 11: to 12:30 and it'll be on the corner of uh sea and 7th Avenue um they had three applications that uh and they did interview process last week they're working their way through that process now as people are moving on um aa's been busy with uh working final touches on Autumn Arts Festival which is coming up on September 14th uh all Roundup parade and even talking about the booya already October 6 that's around the corner start peeling electric is still trying to uh clean up some of the stuff from the storms at a broken poll that was uh changed out today um we did uh energize article 7 today for their permanent power that Transformer they'll be getting uh all the meters installed uh by probably next week um they'd received their new bucket truck they'd had a few warranty items that uh they're dealing with so truck is out and be back soon fire has been extremely busy with calls they had 168 calls in August normal is probably about 115 120 a lot of them ended up being the uh order that they put in too much of that odorant into the gas had lots of calls on that um Public Works is still working hard at those ash trees um just some information on that so the Public Works was working on as of this was probably a couple weeks ago so they've had more since then but they've removed 86 ash trees and they're hoping to get uh 30 more by the end of the year they're able to get an early start with the uh mild weather we had in the spring uh 400 ash trees remain on public property uh 85 as trees are being treated just to give them a little extra time till they can get back out there probably have to removing them later and 150 new trees we planted uh an update on the Minnesota DNR relief Grant which the city was awarded $400,000 300 for public as removal um and 100 for low inome private ash tree removal um private Ash there were uh 38 applications 81 private ash trees were removed and that work is complete now uh as far as on the public side 70 trees were removed contractor is still working on the remaining 20 trees which will bring the total for this year to 90 trees um contractor will also be planting 90 new trees uh late September still $150,000 left in the grant remaining uh plan to remove and replace another 100 public ash trees on the city boulevards um and it was nice appreciate the contractors pushing and getting Margaret Street uh mail and overlay done taken care of before the school started today so appreciate them doing that uh they're working on Fourth today and first yeah move along well though that's all I have thank you very much all right back up here so anything with them for you Mr nby as far as uh um committees and you're wait for me to finish this aren't you because you know I'm St the Planning Commission will be meeting this Thursday two days from now could have started earlier and the topical discussion will be the Margaret Street comment right here in this building at 6:30 this Thursday thank you as for the arts and culture commission um there is a meeting tomorrow at 6:30 here in the chambers um currently uh they'll be planning for 2025 um and then also um they're pretty much going to be focusing on the Autumn Arts Festival um on September 14th so um should be a good event and a lot of fun thank you sure Parks and Recreation met last week here in council chambers on Wednesday they discussed and uh met with hga which is a architectural planning uh firm that is going to do some studies on the community regarding three areas that would be the mcnight athletic complex they're calling it a pocket Park which is the little um park right now or the little space next to the VFW and um the uh is the polar is it Polar Ridge not Polar Ridge it's those Town Homes I think uh m& no it's Place pen Place pen place and then there is um the another location it's they're calling it passive Park and I believe that is the up by m& so they'll be doing a study in the community with um autum Arts Festival coming up they'll be there they were not aware of the parade um and that is something that they're also going to tap into um it has been advised during the meeting and going through the whole budget process that they need to come to council and discuss what are the plans and as we're talking about plans um as discussed in Workshop to there are and we're working out the budget there's a lot of things happening with parks and wreck that need to be brought to the attention so we've requested uh Riley to come and provide some more guidance to the um the Park and Recreation commission um I will also ditto the in they're getting ready for Autumn Arts Festival as well so they're partnering with um arts and culture and that will be next Saturday from 11: to 6 thank you very much aome recall next Eda meeting will be a week from today here in Chambers September 10th at 4 o'clock thank you very much General business council member Norby um just want to remind everyone we are 15 days 22 hours 37 minutes and 5 seconds away from the fall Roundup parade there's a nice little counter on our website thank you um I was at the state fair this past week and um well yesterday and I just wanted to call out a couple North St Paul folks um for for their um participation at the fair um ciphers side uh dance studio um or dance school they did performances several times um but they they had one yesterday and um they've just been really growing and growing so it's really great to see them um flourishing as a North St Paul Business um also uh we had a I think fifth place winner on um bread so bread bread yeah nice so cool that was fun um but that's all I have I picked a beautiful day to go yeah that's for sure weatherwise c m we I want to thank everybody that was involved for those audits I truly believe that's a lot of work that you all have to do on top of your daily um assignments and having to pull all that so I thank everyone in the office for going through the measures that they do on a daily basis to pull information for those audits thank you saurin for working with the state and our city as well to identify the final results uh that is greatly appreciated by us um on a lighter note I saw on social media actually in between these meetings I looked and the new bakery has a are specializing with their doughnut their glazed donnut at Max for a glazed donut burger this week nice so go try it out outow that's it uh I just want to give a shout out to public works both Ron Randy and team um been a heck of a summer you with the the rain the storms the the non-stop everything that's going on you and your team are doing a phenomenal job out there um I mean tow straps for lawnmowers to try to get mowing done in parks and um you know all the streets that are being buil and overlaid right now now and you guys are busy I just want to make sure you get recognition so thank you yeah electric my son was down in coo for I think two and a half days so it's so nice to have our electric Department how fast we can get things going we take our electric for granted in this city it's very good big time so yes he uh he wanted to come over and use the wash machine so we let him yeah also I went and um I took some branches that fell and broke you know cut them up and took them to uh Sims and Frank and Sims The Dump over there and Ramsey I never seen so many trees there you could barely get in there and the cars were all way to the road lined up so there's a lot of stuff going on as far as the storm so I hope everybody can get back on their feet and go from there and Saturday um I was invited by the police chief and hopefully everybody else if they have time they'll be able to make it for the ceremony that's that's a very special thing to be able to take that time to be able to recognize a service he provided in North St Paul and be able to uh get together as a community and grieve 15 years goes by quick when I heard that date I was like wow it seems like yesterday so I'm sure it's not for the family so we can help them so and now we have to uh go to our close session so we're not going to close the meeting but we're going to a motion to close the session yeah so it it is a a meeting to uh close the session uh Mr Mayor if you would read uh word for word the item in 12a and then if there if that could be followed by a motion and a second to vote to close it okay all right this meeting will be closed as permitted by section uh 13d .03 to discuss the city's labor negotiation strategies related to the city's negotiations with the internal Brotherhood of Electrical Workers ibw International sorry right International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers then local 60 supervisory unit is that right Local 160 I missed that 160 Teamsters public and law enforcement employees union local 320 police workers and electrical law enforcement labor unit excuse me local 211 Patrol and local 298 sergeants and ask ask me Council five essential and nonessential Unions that's it can I need a motion to adjourn then there's it's not an adjournment so motion to go to closed motion to go to closed yes y can I get a motion please so moved so moved council member Norby second second council member Wong all those in favor say I hi thank you very much e e e e for