##VIDEO ID:QixjKVXe4GE## e e e e e e all right we'll call the meeting to order for the park and rec commission North St Paul October 23rd 2024 6:30 Sarah could you do roll call please absolutely uh Lloyd gr here Laura Greenley carp is at absent Dave andren here Ben Hansen is absent ingren kler here Sue springborn here Sarah zarka here seeing an uh um Quorum adoption of the agenda motion I make a motion Dave makes a motions I'll second that ingred seconds all in favor say I I I'll oppose approval of the minutes on September 25th need a motion I make a motion Dave makes a motion second I'll second it sue seconds it all in favor say I I I I'll opposed all right we don't have zoom anymore right okay anybody from the public would like to talk to the park commission you you'll have three minutes please take your name and address for the record John SCH 2750 Chisum Avenue a not so extraordinary resident in a extraordinary city um I wanted to know when the meeting was so I did what I always do I go to the calendar and see where when whatever and uh there is something on the 24th there's nothing on the 23rd if you want to do it you can look in your phones and come up with that so next step is well I guess you're going to have to search because it's not there and you do a search and the calendar comes up for the park and wreck oh yes there is a meeting on the 23rd that's today and uh we want more details and the first thing up is that the meeting is on Zoom right there so you click on that to see if that works but it's not little wheel keeps turning and turning and turning and it there's no Zoom I know there's no Zoom because I was at the council meeting when they announced there is no more zoom but I just found out tonight by going in that little room why and you can do the same and find out the real reason why it was done away with um and uh but the real reason to be here is that subject of the park dedication fee I started that Journey 10 months ago just by saying I wonder if they really got the money and the City attorney when I did bring it up for the first time said who told you about this and I said I didn't no one told me about the problem I was just making a shot in the dark did 37 years with the custom service always looking for trouble and I have a good uh feeling for finding trouble so we're now 10 months later and we don't have that 80 ,100 in the bank in the park dedication fee you can go to the August 20th meeting where the big discussion happened and it was said that when that this it was approved that the city would come up them the money and make the park dedication fee hold that's three minutes isn't that nice anyway good luck with getting it I asked the uh uh Finance director when's that money going to be transferred and he said when the council decides that it's going to be transferred okay good luck thank you thanks CH all right let's move to uh commission business hga updates oh we did have that written public comment do you mind reading that oh sure do we know the name no okay this was received at the Casey Lake one of the Casey Lake meetings Okay public comment on renovations to Casey Lake this were the suggestions Grove of shrubs trees to play in like Casey used to have obstacle course to redo adults teens ninja Park like Jordan drive by for control non-sporty hangout for teens and ask kids sales for shed with picnic tables City sponsored internship to keep spaces clean and food available for kids thank you thank you um this was brought to us uh she wanted to give the this to uh at the time to Noah who on uh the team with hga right um she had mentioned to me that there was uh these shrubs or something that was up at Casey years ago where the kids could play in and make forts or whatever she would like to see that incorporated somewhere else in some of our Parks um the drive by area what she meant by that was have it some of our Parks a little more visible so as police offers can drive by just make sure that everything is on up and up and no illegal activities are taking place that's what she meant by that and I told her I said if you look at some of the other ideas we're trying to incorporate some of those in some of our newer Park Designs so and so she just gave me that note like 20 minutes after I talked her and says make sure he gets that and she meant Noah and with lately I've been under a bunch of other stuff so I I did give it to to Sarah so um that's all I can comment on that I'll just pass it around it's really funny cuz my kids were having a long discussion about those particular shrubs on the way to school this morning so that's funny that that came up really all it was was some shrubs and it had died in part of it so there was like a hole so they could crawl in it was like a little almost like a little Hideout yeah make but it was like the way it had grown in and probably because kids were walking in it it was just funny cuz my kids were talking about that this morning we can't just pop one of those but I think it's the idea that it's like play but it's not you know it's like a secret organic play yeah yeah and my daughter was like I don't know why they cut that down they didn't even put anything there and then I made me think I'm like I don't know why they cut it down I mean it wasn't the prettiest looking thing but you could tell kids when inside in you know but that's funny it's just ironic that that came up this morning any other comments on it I have a question the last comment says food available for kids do you can anyone expand on what that means that I don't know we don't know okay is that it like events no idea okay do we have a name no no no name i' like food available to me sometimes too okay um it the the ninja course idea is kind of read in keeping with what you know we envision at some point there obal course aren't we working on that eventually well Tri will talk to you a little bit about some of the ideas but all right T you're up HJ just remind me am I able to come up here yes yes absolutely I was doing um I think I know pretty much everyone now but again uh because it's on a little larger uh Forum uh I'm trig Hansen uh landscape architect with hga architecture um and uh let me just hga as a reminder uh was selected earlier this year um to help uh for RFP process to help North St Paul look at three Parks um the north uh mcnight athletic complex um the downtown what we've started calling the downtown open space um the the triangle um on the south west corner of uh downtown uh on 7th and then uh what we're calling the Third Street North open space the wooded Lots um across from the Gateway homes um we've been doing that for the past couple months um and uh beginning uh in August uh early September um and where we are today um is that we just came out of a meeting with um Sarah Sue Dave um and the rest of the hga team and uh Sarah Lang um looking at uh where we are on some uh draft uh preferred Design Concepts we've solicited a bunch of uh Community engagement um that has taken uh a bunch of different uh steps most recently um we did a virtual uh focus group with um uh hga uh City staff and uh folks uh specifically from North High School and uh the school district isd622 um uh that one was predominantly about the mcnight uh athletic complex um we know and we have learned um and got a lot of um uh uh empirical experience-based um emotional based uh uh information on on that Park and the desires and moving forward um we also then talked uh recently at the open house two open houses a couple weeks ago at Casey Lake to The Wider Community where we talked about all three projects specifically um and had a lot of great conversations uh with the public uh didn't have our clicker there counting every individual but we we know we talked to at least 50 uh people possibly up to 70 or 80 people um uh some that came uh based off the advertised uh event many that we flagged while we were there uh people out loving the playground and the beautiful weather that we were having and they were gracious enough to come in spend some time and provide feedback um those are a couple of the uh community and public engagements that have been informing um the conceptual design directions that we've been developing right now um uh we take hearing what the city wants and the public wants um and at these different Parks um after kind of posing a lot of questions to them um and that's where the Design Concepts are uh from this on we'll get into those uh briefly and um I do think this is a good opportunity and Sarah anyone correct me if I'm wrong to have a larger open conversation if if available about the project and where things are um uh one of the things that we just did uh talk about at this meeting was initial cost estimates our scope does does have um providing cost estimation of the prefer the Design Concepts um to help inform um next steps with the city once we've once we're done with this project um um and in conjunction um a whole uh and there's always a level of whoa that's what it cost to do some projects that we're talking about um uh uh couple different scales of intervention that we're exploring at mcnight um looking at from 55 million to 13 million um these are loaded conservative cost estimates meaning that um they reflect uh what it would take to implement the programs that we're showing on a conceptual design plan these are the programs the the desires and the wants um cost based decisions have not been made yet other than um making sure that the amount of cost that we're uh incorporating into the cost estimate is appropriate for the item that we're talking about so rough Square footages rough qualities and quantities of some things um so again cost based decisions haven't been made on these um these are uh that's the level of what um uh information that we're carrying right now so for uh that was a little off topic but um so mcnight somewhere in the range of 5 to 13 million for the downtown open space from based on what we're showing right now around 600,000 um and a range of 700 to 900 for developing um the Third Street one um this brought us into some uh conversations about where funding and implementation dollars for uh moving forward with the one or any of these projects might be um we've talked about and and uh as a team kind of understand where the cap the current capital uh Improvement plans are we've highlighted some of these they're supposed to be small we're not going to necessarily get into the details but there could be opportunities to utilize those or shift them around within the city um um that uh one topic or one uh Fund in uh that uh vein is that there's planning for some improvements at mcnight for the um uh Paving and the parking lot uh does it make sense to do that now if we're talking about a larger planning and design effort could that funds be shifted to one of the smaller parks to implement that sooner um that's something uh some of the conversations that I think should be starting to take place within the city in order to implement some of these projects in the future there's a whole host of opportunities that the city um Can leverage uh to part uh grants Partnerships for any of these um this is a kind of uh thinking about potential Financial Partnerships with the school district or um uh DNR environmental uh trust funds to the the whole host of professional sports organizations that have Community foundations that fund um opportunities within the community um but I think we as a group uh in the meeting right prior to this kind of um fully discussed how uh moving forward um now is the time to start positioning and really thinking about within the parks and rec commit committee from this the City management um Community Development uh wherever those want to start place that um uh take place that those conversations and we're starting to Leverage The mechanisms that we can um so I'll get into the uh downtown open space the triangle right off of 7th we've we presented two options for this at the um uh Community open house um and these are the two options one uh the front porch option which a little bit uh uh was had a few more votes and in general the conversation that we've had um as from the task force team is that there's an opportunity probably to uh blend uh pieces of each of those options into one moving forward a lot of conversation about what uh level like um of implementation what does does it want to be less presuming or more presuming of a park and a lot of conversation about um um uh what the IDE the idea of public art and uh public play uh based artistic uh Endeavors have into the into the park too um uh at this location uh which led uh and oh I'm going to back up sorry I lost my train of thought uh I I we we highlighted this the public art and some of the um swings and play sculpture potential programming because they had a lot of uh support or strong reactions um in this uh Community engagement process um so we wanted to solicit a bit more uh conversation um within the uh larger audience um gave a little bit more higher um higher level of uh opportunities of things that are purely kind of sculptural as public art to um play structure as public art uh and in general um the direct ction that we've heard uh for the P for the downtown um public space is that um uh we want to provide flexibility that has a level of playfulness um but can combine uh GA I'm see do I have actually have nope I don't have that slide apologies um uh that uh General SE things about spacem and placemaking like benches or tiered seating can have a Lev a level of play an artistic um character to them that could in initial implementation of a park provide um the the desires and reflect the desires of the community um and none of this would be uh prohibit future interaction of uh public purely public art or play based public art in the future should I keep going through the entire yeah thing and then we'll talk have some talks the so the Third Street open space um uh the two concepts that were uh presented were one that was nature BL nature play and community garden based and one that was a larger dog like forested dog park um and with a small play area on the south Corner um oh and uh the public uh open house uh findings were pretty strong in support more in support of the nature play and community garden approach um so uh which um from from the design sense and the space being a wooded area um that has some level of seclusion but connection to the to the nature or the uh Gateway Trail and um adjacent housing it's the you know from a design sense it seems appropriate that nature play would be um uh uh fitting for that space although we have had some uh further conversations about uh strong desires and uh support and uh support for other pieces that weren't dis directly involved with that one option being community garden um and dog park um those are things that I know uh through uh conversations with PRC members in particular are still requested as things that the city doesn't have and could be this could be opportunities for them um so the the area to the South um right on the corner of 7th and third um it's existing kind of open Green Space we still um toying with you know is that a space that could have a community garden or a smaller dog park or be left for future flexibility as just simple green space now um and uh moving into the conversations of mcnight athletic complex um this is a uh site that we continue to learn more and more about um and develop more questions um as such um we've learned and are still learning about use agreements um as I think many of of uh the city and uh uh committee volunteers are um this long-standing use agreement with the the school district um uh in general we're assuming this can um uh continues um and we've heard that from uh that that's the Assumption you know by the school district as well um but how does that relate to um priorities of the city moving forward um comprehensive plan language identifies uh mcnight as uh playfields and that we would know that as and you know a project actually moved forward and got permitted there'd be review um by the the Planning and Zoning Commission on whether that the proposed uses are in alignment with the comprehensive plan um and that doesn't it uh our understanding and our experience with that is an athletic complex does allow um for uh amenity support and pro other programs um you know whether it's in this jurisdiction or our experience in other ones um uh so uh by no means does incorporating other programs on top of the existing athletic programs um uh fly in the face of what the comprehensive plan language does um we know that there is the existing uh triple combatting cages um that are operated uh by that uh business um and have uh a long longstanding um uh leases that have been renewed over the years and currently have uh one that is um uh recently been uh renewed for I I don't remember the exact terms um but what are the what is the appropriate planning approach for that uh involvement right now on the site as well so those are all questions that we're getting more answers to and having more questions um as well uh moving forward all that being said we've uh developed some uh conceptual design thinking for these sites we presented five different options or shared five different options at the open house and had further conversations with the PRC uh subcommittee and the community liaison um and uh a general in summary in summary what we heard is that it's great to think about how we can add additional programs as amenities that support the community um there's also great opportunities to make the athletic complex more flexible for different types of field sports um uh right now it's dominated by four large or four one field sport type the baseball and softball I guess it's two potential um um but there's opportunities to uh overlay field flexibility within that and that's what we're exploring in the Design Concepts um um uh so I'll briefly walk through uh the the the general scope of what the Design Concepts are thinking one is this upper left one this option one is taking essentially all of the area that is not uh the baseball or softball fields and saying this is the the the scope of the project to to work with um improving the parking um taking one of the tennis courts that is uh currently not used um uh and uh improving it to have some level of sport court and potentially thinking about part of it could could integrate something like bike skills or uh skate park um turning the t-ball area into a uh fully flexible flexibly programmable field um uh this is uh not a great size of image but this is a a uh artificial turf field shown um that you could have backto back to back use uses with for for um uh small soccer programming small flag football programming all kinds of things like that um that is a desire that we've heard uh from uh our liaison at the school district who's uh who is also the coach of the soccer team um who uh says that or has relayed that not only is the high school soccer program could utilize that but a wider Community um level uh soccer and other Youth Development programs could utilize uh a program like that um option two is uh kind of is in the same vein but it focuses on a larger flexible field um uh and diminishes the amount of additional um uh playground or um uh Sport Court programming that is uh proposed the two bottom options uh are uh thinking about how could how can we serve the exist existing uh softball and baseball programs that are fully supported right now um in a much more flexible way and serve a bunch of other athletic type uh field-based uh sport programs so this would propose that you take the north to softball fields and convert them into fully flexible uh field field this would be uh in in its most common contemporary sense right now this is it's an artificial turf uh build where it's um uh Synthetic Turf over uh pervious uh subbase um so this could be utilized um in the rain or snow or shine and potentially year round um uh you know even during the winter in the colder months because you can clear snow and things like that or you could Dome it um uh this uh also um positions the thought of uh placing a park building um right now in the location of where the the uh batting cages potentially capitalizing on infrastructure and utility that is there already if you had a larger athletic flexible Field Complex you would probably want uh storage and operations um uh and additional bathrooms potentially meeting space small events and things like that we heard a lot of conversations at C Casey park at how great the Casey Park pavilion is this is a building um in similar vein and scale to that providing um indoor outdoor bathroom opportunities rental opportunities um indoor outdoor spaces overhangs things like that so um one of the you know moving forward on on this site in particular one of the questions and we just kind of formulated this um in the meeting leading up to this is who and what are the priorities from the city's position um for further improvements and operations of mcnight um we see from a design from a design side we see huge huge potential to improve and add layers to the way that the the the um the shared use agreement is already happening with the city in support of the of the uh School District um with some structural uh physical structural and some operational structural um adaptations and creativity so um what this doesn't it it it shows replacing two of the softball courts but it doesn't what it doesn't do is eliminate them those are still softball fields that are use usable as softball but they're also usable for soccer football lacrosse um you could have five 10 little soccer fields uh set up at the same time um or all kinds of other different types of field sports that may come up with this Vibrant Community so um I think that's that's the end of my uh oh actually no um so what we're working towards is presenting refining uh the options and um the dialogue that we've had for into to the next month presenting um what we're uh as of now we're calling about a 95% um draft of the concepts um because we we know we're going to learn more information through other conversations stuff so that would be in a month um uh a week prior to this meeting um and then uh reporting out with um potentially some adaptations to that draft um to uh what we we see is then uh thei a final uh preferred approach design approaches so I hope I did that in less than the half an hour I was given oh you're F you're fine hopefully have a little time for conversation all right are you good John or Tri yeah yeah I open it to questions yeah um I'm trying to wrap my brain around the the multiuse usable field um so is there a an example of a softball I I just don't want to lose the ability to have softball there on those fields and you're saying it'll work and it could be soccer or it could be softball is there a nearby Field anywhere within the 30 minutes uh Sil silven Rec Center okay so where I could see one of right on uh Maryland silven rec center on Maryland that's city of St Paul um uh you know in some um uh I mean there's uh and one of I could have a hourong just slideshow Pro of all the immensely unique ways that different institutions like private school institutions to municipalities have uh designed and arranged these facilities um they come in all kinds of shapes and forms you know some where it's a a square with a softball D like d diamond um kind of protruding out of the side so that you can have uh overlap in our in our case here um the general conceptual shape is the same as the softball fields um you would utilize you would probably utilize movable uh like uh fences on Wheels we'll say to do like the outside out out um The Outfield or the field the divider between the two so um that's an absolutely great point it would be really easy for me to us to pull together a few other examples would other than a few I mean I already have them compiled you know and just share them at as a larger yeah I'd love to see how that that makes sense lack of imagination on my part I'm just trying to I mean I I believe you I just would love to see this um in a concrete way so I mean I can go take a look at these fields too um that you mentioned silven Rec Center yeah thank you anybody else okay I guess I'll just bring this up to the committee because I brought this up in the sub meeting and I think it's something we're talking about especially Cassidy as you guys talk about on the council is uh we have a longstanding agreement with the high school with the with the school district they don't currently pay for that space they have contributed uh signs and things to are you know the students use those fields they have a need and a use for Three softball diamonds they said is really what they would prefer to keep um the question I rais is what obligation do we have to keep those three softball fields based on their need and not the community's need because our community doesn't all play softball and so keeping three Fields makes it very difficult to do anything else with that Park and this is kind of our last opportunity within the city to have this large space and use it for the whole Community um so something I just wanted to bring up so that you know I'm not the bad guy in all this is like I think keeping a use use agreement with a high school is really important because it's right there but I also think we asked the question of how do we service those high school students the children that would be there with their brothers or sisters playing games and how do we make sure it's usable for the whole city because so many people don't even know that mcnight Fields is a city park they just think it's part of the high school and my argument would be the high school isn't paying for this the city is and so I would love to get because I know Noah and trig were kind of asking about where do where do our priorities as a parkboard lie and the first thing I said when I saw the four softball fields is why are those four softball fields still there when we don't you when people do not use them I did get information that the high school does use them but if the high school is the only one using those fields I just want to challenge the group or hear your feedback on where do you lie in this because they can't make a design unless they know where we stand with going back to the high school and saying actually we're going to give you two and then you can Flex these other ones or you know actually we need this for something else I just would love Cassidy everybody's kind of whoever has feedback on that matter because that was something we left out of there is that North High kids are still our kids they're still North St Paul you know residents but my fear is that like we don't get to do this again and if we're talking between five And1 million we need to do this right and I don't want to be pigeonholed into keeping Three softball fields because that's what they want when the trends and statistics are telling us that our demographics and that sport are slowly declining so I just think it'd be good for them to have that information of how you guys feel about that too Cassidy included of like where you think the council would sit with that but I think we just need to dig a little bit further into what does that agreement look like and is there even anything with um right now that space is from my understanding I can't speak on behalf of all the council but my personal understanding is that it's just there and it's our space that's all I am I aware of so moving forward what is the commitment to what is the city's commitment to the high school and where does that stand so that's more of a conversation we would have to dig more into yeah I'm just processing I don't want to tick I don't want to tick off the school district by any means that's not my goal but it's it's also like if there's 100 softball players that use that field we have 11,000 people in this city that aren't using it and at some point we have to weigh the balance between what is better for our community and what is best for the high school and my strong belief is that like we're here to make sure that this park functions for the community and I I want to be agreeable with the high school too because I want those students to have a place to play I want those students to have that use but I just I don't know where the line draws and maybe that is at Cassidy maybe we need to have like a what is do we need to draw up an actual contract do we need to talk to them about what happens if there aren't three Fields like what what does that look like for you guys what is your solution you know or I don't know I'll I'll interject one one thought and I believe of All of Us Sarah and I were the only ones that we were we had a two-hour uh stakeholder I call it initial stakeholder meeting with um it was three representatives from the school school district it was the no it was like six in representative from the school district three of them being uh uh North High staff members one was the principal one was the the uh activities director and the third was the baseball coach um we also had uh Community programming uh director from from the school distri school district offices and one other um I think of facilities from operations operations I think um and it was an extremely fruitful conversation by no means could this stakeholder engagement with this unique situation be fulfilled in one meeting um uh so uh they were very uh and I Noah and Kent and I relay this design um they were extremely um open to how is this both a amenity for the school and the city because uh Noah um are uh engagement uh expert did a really great exercise that talked about like the current state of of uh of the use agreement and with that use agreement being heavily shifted towards or use uh towards the school district because of um uh programming use by lack of programming use by by the city and other out outside agencies that may have used to used to do it um and um their entire group whether it was the high school or the school district side um agreed that that that should shift the ideal state is that shifts back to the Middle where it's a 50/50 um support you uh like a like a like a equal marriage um versus uh someone one where the uh the loudest voice is always them or the only voice at this point so do they have a financial obligation right now for using the part using I don't know the answer but I don't believe so I don't believe so okay so we need to like you said look into that yeah I think we need to in sooner rather than later I think that would be a good question for Brian um and I'm sorry not not I always push off to Brian um I'm sorry Riley yes so I would just follow th we've identified the potential for funding options or funding and budgeting to include the school district who yeah potentially is a large stakeholder yep yep anybody else I think until we get further along with the agreement what the city may have with the school district uh the sooner we find out if they're going to even Pony anything up we kind of at a standstill we're not sure just just like the the the ball field um there is some stuff that happened with that 30 years ago which gives them uh the legion um indefinite use of that field that's why we don't touch that um there's something I would like because they gave lighting and some other stuff and this is back three years ago that's something um I think couple questions that should be placed in front of our city uh attorney to see how binding that agreement 30 years was you know and does it still hold up today so that' be I think as far as the mcnight things a few of us from Park and wck should really get down with public works and a city manager and kind of hammer some of this stuff out so we can move forward with any projects that we have down there yeah and I I think the you know Solutions like the hybrid field you know everybody wins uh with with a solution like that if we're looking if we're if we know we're on the same side of the fence and we're all looking for the solution it's probably there in some design of yours just engaging a a process like this this design uh investigation and admittedly it's three completely different Parks you know has is is leading you on the path to coming up with this and and design and and collaborative thinking we can so we can uh we can solve all these challenges because none of these are they're not problems they're just challenges and opportunities that we can capitalize on so um I'll just kind of leave it at that um that you know together we can figure it out so anybody else thanks trig thanks Lloyd andate it thank you thanks everybody for their input I will I will send I assume this what I just showed is part of the meeting agenda would be part of the okay I'll send it to you thank you thanks thank you I do have one more question I'm sorry uh so you the you mentioned you might have some slides about this hybrid field sorry I've seem fixated on this field but um did you say you had some slides you could share with us is there a way for you to I don't I have a directory of oh okay hundreds of images okay never mind I would say it's not curated yet but it seems like in support of this and you know we have shared them in different venues like this was a just a snapshot of what we've shown we've shown several precedent images of how you know these types of fields um uh because this is a a little bit different um audience it would make sense to take a little bit of time from our point to share that in a better way than I just did here yeah so sure um whether it's uh email or a conversation I'll I'll put it together and we can share it thank you so I we could include it in the the packet okay thank you to everybody that's been on these committees and everybody from the public that has been involved in this CU I know it's going to be a long process and it takes a lot of time but thank you very much appreciate it thank you for inviting me you're welcome thank you for coming all right park hours yeah so per um our council is on Cass um a couple meetings ago requested that we um The Parks Commission develops a recomend Commendation um that can go to Council on U permanent park hours um so that is what this discussion should be about and coming up with a recommendation what's the current status um they're currently 7:00 a.m. to 10 p.m. I guess my question was going to be is do we have any feedback on how that's going uh I haven't heard anything my understanding is it's been good yeah good okay um have there been any complaints about the 7 am open you know like uh because I'm just thinking by Silver Lake I mean I'd love to you know like lots of people will walk their dogs early in the morning or go for a walk early in the morning it's seven is kind of a suggestion I think more than a reality yes um no feedback from my perspective on that time I don't know if you've heard anything okay our old hours were like Dust to Dawn was that kind of no they were actually like slated p.m. okay and then we had those situations occur and that's where we were visiting and we decreased to 10 p.m. yeah we need direction from you all and discussion from you all as to what that may look like moving forward so we can give especially now that we in January we'll be opening up for rentals so that's going to affect that and we need some direction on that because the rentals would have to close at that time correct it okay y um I'm really supportive of the 10 p.m. my one question was going to be winter like I guess when I'm thinking about the buildings that doesn't seem unreasonable because you have light and everything but I'm thinking about like you know what January and it's dark at like 5:00 p.m. and do we really want people wandering around the Parks when it's that dark but um I guess I'm trying to be considerate of the buildings here and people who might rent it for a graduation party or something yeah but there's other us of the parks like hockey you know there's some kidss that are playing you know until we ours um so that would also affect them so I believe wasn't our time before was 7 to 11 correct yeah I personally I don't see any reason not to uh to keep what we have right now I think 10 p.m. is probably late enough I mean um we keep the temp hours the hours that are temporary as of now from 7 to 10 I agreed that's what they should be and that would be my motion is to keep it from 7 a.m. to to 10: you making a motion I make a motion to keep it at 700 a.m. till 10 p.m. second anybody my only discussion was going to be the earlier time but if we had seven before I think people who are I I don't think our problem makers were early in the morning so I see gr's perspective I mean yes there are people that get up that at 6:30 because they have to be at work or they have to get up at 5:30 and they have to be at work and they're walking the dogs um I think there's a difference between Ruckus and walking a dog or walking in the morning or running in the morning I mean I I'll go for a run in the morning and if it's along the lake it's along the lake and if an officer wants to come to me and tell me I'm sorry it's not open then I'll run away from the lake and we have well I wait and I would hope that a a parent of a young child who's up at 5 and they can't wait to get to the park and the kids playing quietly at the park at 6:30 that I hope that they would know that that's okay um instead of like oh no we can't go over till 7: do we we needed we need a second before we well and there wasn't I need disc I mean there was okay yep now we'll go to discussion well I don't see where it's been been a real issue in the past at 7: a.m. somebody says hey it's 5:30 in the morning and yeah JoJo has to go for his walk I don't think there's going to be an issue if they're out there in a park walking the dog at 5:30 or 6 o' and they happen to run into law enforcement I don't think there's going to be an issue yeah uh but if you're out there at 6:00 a.m. and you're setting up the band to play something that might be an issue and I think that's what we're trying to enforce yeah I mean 7: a.m. if it's been 7:00 a.m. all along I was not even aware of it I just didn't know I thought it was Dust to Dawn so I yeah what I know um so but I you know I'm I'm in favor of the 1 hour earlier closing because all of our Parks like most of our parks are Urban they're surrounded by houses um I think we need to talk about then maybe getting better signage because I don't think our parks had well we've been working on signage for a while but maybe one of the post follow-ups is once we approve this is getting some little placards like a lot of parks have because I feel like we might have had them at some point they probably fell off something or weren't replaced and maybe we get some better signage calling out the hours so we make it a little easier on law enforcement other people they would certainly do that cuz right now the temporary signs those I've seen though I've seen those and I've never seen the permanent I thought it was just to Dawn and I've been on this we haven't made any obviously because of what's happening but um yes that's where those are very notably see I see those at our Parks but I don't remember seeing the old signs that say the hours so any more discussion okay Sarah can you read the motion uh yes uh motion was to approve the park hours of 7:00 am. to 10 p.m. uh motion was started by uh commissioner andren and seconded by commissioner Zara seeing no more discussion all in favor say I I I I'll opposed awesome that should help get us time to get it to the city council and fantastic so we can great Perfect all right Memorial Park update yes so um as you'll see in your packet on page nine um we recently looking over we've had some orders for some um memorial benches and I noticed that the costs were not in line with what we're charging the um customers of this um we were not charging nearly enough um so I sat down with um Brian frandle our city manager Ry the Grahams the community development director um and Ron Richie and Randy Miller both from Public Works to talk this over um and get a better um recommendation of costs um and what we should charge um the customers so you'll see on this page in the yellow is what we're proposing um to charge in for the bench and the picnic table it's noted on here but I just want to make sure people know that that also includes the plaque currently we have a system where we you have to order the bench and the plaque separately as a customer and that doesn't make a lot of sense so um we're proposing then to combine that and then it also the cost includes the concrete which we all know has gotten very expensive and then staff time to do the installation um but what we are asking tonight is if uh to approve um what you see in yellow for uh beginning in 2025 looks good you guys did all the research question on that the 4 by8 pavers sure where where are we putting those they're in front of the pergola at jany's playground MH oh okay yep because this this I was wondering if they somebody tried tying this in with the vets Park so is this included with the Vets park or is that a separate that's a whole separate thing yeah okay that's why I was wondering when I saw those okay that's why I was wondering what uh what those were for I'm I'd like to make a motion to approve the suggested prices in yellow for 2025 a second Ave second's discussion um I'm just G to acknowledge that it is a and and I agree that we need to raise them especially if we're operating at you know like if the city's paying more for them than the person is providing I absolutely agree I just want to acknowledge that it's a pretty big percentage of a raise in price um and there might be a little um there might be some people that might be upset by that for example if somebody got a bench three years ago but I mean inflation and cost of concrete and everything and and uh so I just want to acknowledge that it is a a steep raise in price but I'm still in favor I think we built this back when we were building the playground so it's 2013 would be the last time that those prices were probably looked at so when you consider an 11year Gap in time yeah um I did have two questions um even though I made the motion um it is weird that that painting tables are cheaper than benches just yes just a call out that's weird yep but second um we have a lot of plaques that have faded and like basically fallen off those pches that already exist so how do we make sure that if someone's investing in this that we honor those plaques and I haven't heard feedback but just noticing it myself I was a little sad that these people did spend money when we built that playground and now you can't even read their plaques and I'm sure people have felt that way but maybe didn't know who to contact so one I think we need to go back and look at what we have now and just make sure that we align whatever plaque we're giving these new things to be the same so it's aesthetically looks good um but two I think we need to understand that if plaques are x amount of money and if whatever plaque we're buying now doesn't hold up how do we stand by that agreement you know replacement policy or something yeah like do like what do these people do who've had plaques there for 10 years and they're faded is that their fault like does their bench get replaced by somebody else it feels like they made the investment so we should honor it but maybe we shouldn't I don't know I just I I would say in conversations with Public Works it's they made the investment we try our best to make sure that it stays in good condition but eventually wear and tear is going to happen and um it's become city property so if we need to remove that bench at some point we can we do not to um and then it would be up to the person that rep replace yeah so maybe maybe it's making like a cost within that because there's one of my benches up there that I'd like to get repl place you can't even read it anymore so and the kids really like it so I just maybe options for people like that too that is we cuz we used to before there was continuity we had some that were like brass plaques in the bottom of the part and then these were in the back and that company went out of business so we can't just replace it you know but um whatever you guys are doing now I think it might give people an opportunity to make that look we timeline it and I would oh sorry we could timeline it tell the person you're x amount of years and we'll be responsible and after that let them know we can also let them know if things are getting deteriorated that hey this is what's going on out of respect for their loved ones we can touch base with them and go hey where do you want to go with this from here I think that should be the policy um you know if somebody pays for a bench I think it should be clear upfront that in 10 or 12 years this might need replacing this is our policy on that this might cost x amount or whatever um I think that needs to be super clear up front because this is an emotional thing and you know you might be thinking well that's my mom's favorite Park uh we want to make sure that two generations from now that you know her great-grandchildren can come sit on that bench and look at the same Lake you know like it it could it's a very emotional Le Laden thing and I think it's that makes it important to make it clear up front and then also have the default be do do what we can to contact the family excuse me um do what we can to contact the family and then if if they decline or if they say I'm sorry it doesn't matter that much anymore that it's that bench or whatever then move on but I just I would hate for the city to make a decision without having thought that through so maybe maybe we have something in place that has it's more of an acknowledgement not a policy but just an acknowledgement that yes it's Act of God things are going to wear and tear bench May collapse because there's a tornado that came through town or the snowstorm I mean you never know it's Act of God so that said hopefully I'm assuming and maybe if not just double check that there's an acknowledgement that indicates that as well yeah smart any other discussion all right uh can you read the yes um so a motion was made to approve the proposed price increases um as you see on page nine a motion was made by commissioner zarka and seconded by commissioner andren all in favor say I I I all opposed awesome thank you everybody uh Park policy yes so um this one was included in last month's packet as well so I hope you each have had time to take a look at it so there's if there's any questions we can get to that but um staff um including myself and Community Development director Riley Grahams as well as my two co-workers Chris churny and Ma Jang have obviously spent some time with this park policy and come up with some um recommendations for um improvements to it um as you can see on page 13 is really where it starts and this was actually for the recommendation of um city manager Brian frandle to uh get rid of the deposits for the park shelter rentals these are the outdoor uh open air shelters um because we are not doing pre and post inspections of those sites so the deposit is not as justifiable as the other ones um so that is probably the biggest change that we're recommending there um and then if you continue on to page 14 um the other big change that we're recommending after working through this system for a year is that right now uh residents of North St Paul can begin booking for the following calendar year on December first or the first working day thereafter um we don't propose changing that except moving the opening time from 8:00 a.m. to 9:00 a.m. it gives staff who arrive at 8:00 a.m. time to make sure the systems are running and everything is going well before um we open um the the significant change though is currently for non-residents um they they're allowed to begin booking our facilities um January 2nd or the first working day thereafter um what complicates things with that system is if they non-resident wants to book right away in January um our system doesn't allow that to happen so we actually have to open it um allow the person to register online and close it again and we have to do this while we're on the phone with the resident um or the non-resident so what we are proposing is moving that opening date up two weeks into December so December 16th that still gives the resident of North St Paul two full weeks of being able to reserve before a non-resident can um we would still propose that that opens at 9:00 a.m. as well just to give staff time to get in and get settled and make sure the system's working but um if we do move forward forward with that plan uh we would promote the heck out of that so people are very aware that uh CU we're getting a lot of phone calls now about 2025 booking so um we want to make sure everybody's aware that there's that change yeah is that related to the calendar change is that what why is the system clunky in January and not in mid December for the non-resident um because sorry um because the non-resident can't book for for instance we had an issue last year where a resident or a non-resident wanted to book on January 3rd um we they want to book obviously in December so that they know they have the facility they want to send out their invitations oh book it for that early part of January I see so by moving the non-residents up a couple of weeks it still gives them time to book early January if they like I see okay um um so it makes it a little bit easier for everybody if we do it that way um just the other things that are changes in this and and you can certainly look through them um just an additional tip on access to Casey Lake making sure that your key code Works um we wanted to identify that um rescheduling a a reservation is not an easy process for staff so we wanted to include that in the refunds and cancellations policy where we withhold the 20 $5 um administrative fee it's it's a lot of we have to refund a person and then rebook it for them on their behalf it takes us a little while to process a reschedule um so we wanted to note that in here that we would like to um withhold the $25 administrative fee for that as well um and then the other things of note let's see um the in the food truck um portion on page 17 um is being temporarily removed we do not have a current food truck ordinance in the city therefore technically they're not allowed unless they're associated with a special event so having it in the Park rental policy doesn't make sense um so um we're we're working on that um policy to add that to uh ordinances but for now uh we'd recommend just removing that um did you have a question sorry I was just going to say would they can they get it from the city I mean could that be a separate that's a totally separate transaction with the city the food truck the food truck license yeah right now you can't purchase a food truck license with us unless you have a special event permit associated with it and people that rent Cas Lake Park aren't pulling those no permits so um we're hoping to get that on the city ordinances soon um but for now we'd recommend removing it um the inflatable and moon bounces um portion is actually a recommendation again of city manager Brian frandle um previously it had said in here that unless it's a city sponsored event um they aren't allowed he wasn't comfortable that we can have it but other people can't so um he worked on some wording here that allows our renters to have Inflatables um and moon bounces as long as they provide proper Insurance um and that they do a u um Locate they call for locates to make sure that the person's not going to hit our irrigation system or electric lines and I would be we're we're glad to help a person through that process as well is that a popular thing and just just curiosity if they do hit a line who's responsible do they know they'd be responsible yes that would be very clear yes okay is that a common request yes yep um but they are dangerous so we want to make sure that we know what we're getting into um we did want to add some language about tents um staking tents um I we misworded that in here but we do not want tents being staked in the ground again same thing they could hit something so um sandbags um or weights um are required and then the last few changes from the fire department um that you can have your own grills there you can bring any type of Grill as long as it's 20 feet away from the buildings um or any of the structures um and then we just added some facility emergency numbers on here as well that weren't included before so if there's any questions or concerns on any of that I know it was a lot of information we can certainly talk about it I I got a question yes like when we someone from let's say Maplewood reserves one of our facilities yes um and let's say they do that in mid January MH mid February because these people don't know each other a resident of North St Paul wants to rent the same facility at the same time how do you handle that because a residence should have top priority over a non-residence so how are you handling that situation yeah that's a great question um so the priority comes in with that first couple weeks of booking after that it's a first come first Serv process so if the resident of Maplewood booked it they booked it um so it's unavailable to anyone else then my other question is have you talked to public works as far far as housy Park is concerned because of keys couldn't we put a code lock on that as well that is currently still in discussion there's some concern over cost of that um but that is being floated around and really concern is if Lloyd rents it and he gets the the special key and he goes out and makes a copy of that key and three weeks later he has a wild party there not saying he's going to I'll just have it at my home that's I got a park next to me I'm good no see that would be my concern there is the key Y and we yes City staff fully supports uh at least from my perspective and my co-workers and um Public Works that we'd like to see the key code implemented there so there there is some discussion around that and I can at least let leadership know that the PRC would like to see that as well that would be my recommendation towards those and I wasn't sure how you were working that out if you know somebody says hey Casey Lake would be a great place to have my my wedding venue um and they book it right after Christmas rather than in January and the guy in who's in North St Paul had his eye on the same thing I just wasn't sure how you were handling that so okay when they rent like at housy it's just the building or the open shelter correct yep it's both it's both oh it's both okay but it's not the pickle ball courts or anything else okay okay oh I had a question about um the Northwood shelter uh does that get rented uh I want to say this year twice okay not very often so one of my concerns is accessibility for the person who just wants to have a picnic and wants to get out of the rain or what you know whatever um so I'm always a little like if there were two uh Park shelters on the property maybe one could be rented it just feels weird to me to like go oh no this is I'm sorry we've rented this this is not a public it somehow suddenly starts feeling not like a public space right for Park goers and you know I just think we need to kind of consider accessibility to you know people who are just visiting Parks who know nothing about the policy for rent you know shelter rental and all of that um so this just seems like one of those shelters that maybe doesn't need to be rented I don't know uh maybe somebody would disagree with me who wants to have a party there a birthday party with there and um I don't know I I so I was just curious as to how many times it got just a couple pry same with Colby Hills too not very often yeah do we have any ordinances in place that say I can't go over there and put a tent up even though I never rented anything like especially with North Northwood I oh I'm going to think I'm going to put a tent up over there for a while cuz I'm going to have a little party do we have any ordinances say no no it's public space so if they somebody puts a tent up so if they put a tent up once we've passed this policy um PD and correct me if I'm wrong can go over there and say you can't have this tent staked down um just because of the staking policy but the park is public so people can set up a tent or have a party wherever but they can't stake it correct they have to okay correct people do it all over you see it in yeah that they used it's good to know that they're going to use the concrete buckets and so forth yeah and we've had some issues this past year with some volleyball being set up in some of our parks and being staked into the ground and so that's why that's being addressed okay yeah I'd like to make a motion to adopt the the new proposal for the park rentals I'll second that ingred seconds any discussion seeing no discussion all in favor say I all I I'll oppos all right reports from staff I'll start with uh Cassidy you have anything I don't have anything at this time okay Sarah nothing for me all right I'm going to start with Sarah on the Commissioners anything nothing uh Southwood where Dave where are we I have nothing to report on southw okay so we're gonna Dave and I will keep working on that okay figuring out where we're going to go with the whole Southwood okay soe nothing Dave um I have nothing on either mcnight or on Southwood but and being Ben's not here when we were at the open house for hga uh it was brought to our attention that on the west side of the building um the not an arch but the um rafter area that's exposed needs to be restained and sealed uh it's fading pretty bad you can kind of see it so it was brought to our attention and Ben was going to bring it up in his report but he's not here tonight so I I was there with him so I'll just mention that so you said it was on the west side on the west side it's faded pretty bad so that way Public Works is aware of yep what's going on there perfect thank you anything else Dave Noe ask me ing nope n motion to adjourn I make a motion D makes a motion second twoe seconds all in favor say I I all opposed thank you everybody