it is now 6:30 p.m. this is Monday May 20th which and this is the opening of the normally scheduled Norton Conservation Commission uh meeting and as is required we will begin with the reading of the Preamble related to this being a remote conducted meeting so Dan you're on pursuant to Governor H's March 29th 2023 Bill extending several Co ER policies and programs by allowing virtual meetings to continue from March 31st 2023 to March 31st 2025 this meeting of the Norton Conservation Commission will be conducted via remote participation to the greatest extent possible specific information and the general guidelines for remote participation by members of the public Andor parties with a right and or requirement to attend this meeting can be found at the end of this agenda members of the public attending this public hearing SL meeting virtually will be allowed to make comments if they wish to do so during the portion of the hearing designated for public comment by raising their hand virtually or pressing star n if participating by phone no in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted but every effort will be made to ensure that the public public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means in the event that we are unable to do so despite best efforts we will post on the Norton Cable website www. Norton media center.org an audio or video recording transcript or other comprehensive record of proceedings as soon as possible after the meeting thank you Dan um so members of the commission participating tonight uh include myself Julian kades chair Lisa cor Roa Vice chair uh Joe carvalo Paxton H Mark Fernandez um my screen just changed but um Tom ofest was just there oh there you were uh and Dan Pearson so I think we have a full board tonight uh unfortunately our director was not able to join us John Thomas tonight but we have Megan her up here uh our assistant um is John okay uh I I think I believe this is vacation time is that is that correct okay yes yeah you very okay so I I assume he's just fine um so our first uh we do have two new public hearings uh the first of those on our agenda doesn't have a number I I believe it the number has come through since then uh it relates to 61 West Main Street it's a notice to intent uh and in particular it relates to revisions of parking lot of honeydew Donuts in the center of um n so do we have a representative of the applicant uh yes Mr chairman um for the record Eric dis registered professional engineer with strong coin engineering representing honey do Associates this evening so uh I assume you have a plan and uh Megan are you going to be able to authorize him to to screen share yes you should have capabilities now Eric absolutely um let me do this and I am going to start if it's okay by just talking off the aerial photos that are coming up on your screen now um so this is obviously as stated an after the fact notice of intent um the image that you see on the left side of the screen is the Honeydew property as it existed in 2021 um then you can see that there is and I'll show it better on the plan but there is a BBW in in the rear and on the side here so portions of the building in the rear parking lot are located in buffer zones um somewhere around 2022 is uh they made some changes to the site which is what you see now this aerial photo uh was taken from 2023 um and what you'll note is that obviously they've changed the CU green here they've added some perious surface where it used to be impervious uh and they did the same thing in this corner here they removed some impervious surface um all of this was done to improve circulation and queing within the within the um the facility um it unfortunately you know from a just a lack of knowledge they did not file with the commission as they should have um now that said they were somewhat fortunate uh We've taking a pretty deep dive into this as far as what they did and that's where the plan comes in the things that you see shown in red are are the things that changed on the site so first what you'll notice is that this whole area here and this area that is admittedly outside of buffer zone um Turned perious from impervious so that is a benefit basically um it helps with storm water retention and things like that um the other thing is the there was a small addition of Pavement in this area here that I believe was just kind of squ squared off to help cars get past the building um and give a a bypass lane to the um the drive-through aisle so they did create about 130 square feet of impervious surface within uh the buffer zone you'll not just by these Dimensions it's about 2 feet further away than the closest point to the BBW was prior to that um it did not require any additional tree clearing or anything like that it was just an area of lawn that was that was um turned into that uh turned into impervious um but the other thing that you'll notice is whoever did this did it with the existing drainage structures in mind you'll see if we zoom in there is an existing catch Bas in this location this was existing prior to the changes as was this the other so all of the storm water that collects here is still directed to the to the catch Basin that it was originally directed to um so storm water conditions on site storm water patterns haven't changed all of the runoff is still going to the same area that it was before um and theoretically and we haven't run all the numbers because I didn't think it was quite necessary at this time uh but just by the fact that there is additional peria surface on the site now interior to the parking lot if there is's a very slight amount less uh storm water going there now um the other thing that they did is they reestablished this curb that was along the back here uh it was kind of a little beat up at the time so they reestablished that curb which is helpful because it sort of captures everything and stops Overland flow from the parking area from going into the the vegetated buffer zone and directs it to the catch basins um so if we just take a a quick look at the side of the page here we'll see that we ran some calculations and within the buffer zone they actually reduce payment by 45 square feet it very negligible but so be it um total sitewide uh they reduced by about 2500 square feet so again I think that's actually an improvement over the existing conditions um or or the prior condition I should say um you know knowing this commission I I would I would gar to to to pause it that had they come forward with a notice of intent certainly I believe to do this work work I believe in order conditions would have been granted and I might go as far as say it may have been possible uh to file an RDA on something like this considering that it's really just a reduction of impervious surface um so what we're asking tonight is that the commission uh really just to kind of dot the eyes Andross the tees will issue in order conditions for the work after the fact um and then what our plan would be is to let the appeal period lapse and then file for request for certificate of compliance as soon as possible just to get everything a good standing where it's supposed to be um so Mr chairman I'm that's all I've got I'm glad to answer any questions so currently the the the storm water uh system is is functioning normally and and there there were no uh performance problems with these changes on a suing uh none that have been reported to us uh by the owner of the property or that we've heard from the town at any point so we have no reason to believe that it's been an issue at all and and this is was initiated by uh a change in the property owner is that part of it or uh no it wasn't a change in the property owner I think what was happening is that honeydew Associates just needed um some additional fuel length in the drive aisle um in the Drive-Thru aisle and you know to separate the vehicular uh the the people who would park and come into the building from the through customers so for them it was a matter of practicality um my understanding from speaking with the folks at Honeydew is that they did at some point speak to some representative from the town about this although they don't remember who it was um and I don't know that they were advised to necessarily go to the Conservation Commission maybe not realizing that there was a wetland in the back here uh but nonetheless here we are okay um well this this does happen although Norton is allegedly about 53% Wetlands so you can't do much without being within 100 foot of them uh in this town so uh questions from members of the commission so uh Eric did D have any comments when they issu the number uh they did not have any comments when they issued the number and I do have the number here in front of me um just for the record it's 250 1156 um prior to issuance of the number though I did get an email from uh Jacqueline in the Cal office uh just asking for us to provide some information about storm water management on the site which we provided not only to them and they subsequently um issued the number on Friday afternoon but we also upload today on Thursday afternoon to the local site just because we wanted you folks to have all the same information what was the nature of that information was it uh because one of my first questions is you have catch basins to capture the flow but you didn't talk about where that discharges and what the existing water quality features are sure uh in fact let me pull up that storm water update and I can share it with you right now so what we did just in response to Jacqueline's uh request is just go through in EN numerate how we're this particular change affected the performance standards uh given in the storm water management um handbook so basically standard one is no new discharges and this work did not result in a new discharge to a wetland everything goes to the place it went before uh I'll group these together for Peak rate attenuation recharge and water quality um just basically even without running the numbers anytime we reduce impervious surface that Vehicles drive on WE lessen Peak rate runoff uh we increase the ability for recharge and water quality on the site uh so those are a benefit um the last few standards is five and six do not apply seven this is a Redevelopment project so the standards would apply to the extent practical uh standard eight unfortunately we missed the bus on construction period controls because this is after the fact um nine is an operations and maintenance plan uh we're operating under the belief that there's an operations maintenance plan in existence for this because we don't know of any issues that we've had so far or that have been reported to the town so the applicant has just agreed to keep maintaining the system as he always has um and number 10 we actually did because I don't know that this exists um provided an elicit discharge statement uh that basically just says that we're not aware of any and we will continue to make sure that none come up so they're operating they're operating under an OM andm plan that tells them how um how often to clean the catch basins and and whatnot um can we get a copy of that um yeah I can either find a record of it from them or for that matter if there's something that doesn't necessarily exist or it might be subar we can even Beef It Up and make it better okay and then so can you just go over to go back to the site plan uh where that discharge is now and if there are any water quality units on the site um I do not believe just from a visual inspection that there are any water quality units on the site um the only thing that we we were able to find or is as far as we looked at this point was um just these catch basins that you see throughout the site there's one here here here here this five or six of them um yes go ahead oh so does it discharge to the minicipal system in one uh probably the state system in in uh 123 or does it discharge to the Wetland well I I don't know for sure we didn't check that far because what what we considered for the purposes now is that the water is going to all the catch basins that it was before um everything appears to be functioning properly but my expectation just looking at this I think the catch basins that are closer to the frontage are going out to the municipal system and the stuff in the back um is going to the Wetland one way or another whether there subsurface infiltration I tend to doubt this was built around 2000ish um so it's I it's probably a free discharge so there's no provision for water quality because typically when somebody comes in for uh any type of project um Redevelopment or not we look to try to improve water quality now granted removing several hundred square feet reduces impervia surface it does not treat um it does not treat pollutants associated with probably you know a high turnover of vehicles here with subject to you know pollutants such as oil and grease so I think personally I would want to know if there are any uh first of all where the discharges go before we think about what we want to do to improve water quality out here yeah if that's something that the commission is is is interested in we can certainly get that information we ask these questions of every applicant that comes in whether it's a Redevelopment or not is you know now that you're before us if there are no Provisions for water quality we Ty look for it because now is our chance to upgrade sites uh Lisa the you you probably reviewed the the plan as well in Google Drive but the old plan is stamped 2004 but it is the date on the plan is 1998 so um and I'm sure I I didn't I actually didn't open the the notice of intent that was a associated with it but it probably describes some of the features that you're asking about and I think uh so I think uh Eric that that can be reviewed and uh by us and perhaps by by you and can uh clear up these questions or at least give additional information yeah certainly we can gather that information um the only point I I just wanted to just add on to that is you know the again just the only reason that we didn't chase it that far was because again as a Redevelopment it would be subject to the maximum extent practicable and where this is an after Thea situation we thought you know okay well we're still you know we are having an improvement we're flowing to the same spot um didn't know that much more would be warranted but certainly we can we can dig more into that if we need to right so after the fact doesn't absolve you from meeting water quality standards or at least addressing it to try to improve it I'm stress yep thank you further excuse me further questions from members of the commission uh any questions from uh anyone in the hearing and just to review that you can go to the reactions button and uh when you press it there's a hand raised button or you can just speak up and uh to be recognized uh but this um this uh is not a big project since it's already after the fact so what we we're we're not going to be closing any hearings tonight because of the fact that uh our director is unable to attend and he'll be reviewing the tape on this um but our next meeting I believe is uh June 10th um so um would you be I I assume you would be amenable to continuation until then and we can um so we can also deal with the the questions that were put forth tonight um so if we're all set with that we can consider a motion to continue this hearing until June 10 so moved second we have a motion by Joe seconded by Dan uh as is necessary roll call vote starting with Paxton and Dan how do you vote hi hi Mark and Joe hi Mark I didn't hear a I don't know if spoke at the same time I said I okay um and Leisa and Tama hi hi and I'll say I so motion carries thank you Eric we'll talk to you next time thank you I'll get that information and get back to you you bet thanks thank you uh our next um new public hearing is file number 250 d1052 waiting River States this is um a previously presented project but it's now requested an amendment um do we have a representative of the applicant yes I'm here Mr chairman members of the commission Brian Dunn all right and I'm assuming you probably have screen screen sharing capabilities so you I'm gonna have Justin Williams from my office uh share his screen if uh you can give Megan can you give Justin sharing rights please hello uh so uh let me know when you've got the screen ready to go Justin here we go all right we see a plan so uh members of the commission my name is Brian Dunn with MBL Land Development and permitting I'm here my offices uh are located at five Bristol Drive in south east and uh Justin you got to close your your web browser or is that mine okay thank you um and I'm the principal of the firm we're here on behalf of Joan and Scott sto sto as you as you know we've been in front of the commission we've uh we do have a d file number as you can see on the screen we do have an order of conditions for this project and what we've done is we've come before you uh recently with last few months or so and discussed the process of of filing an amendment to the plans and it was our understanding that the commission was willing to go along with a a review of the request for the amendment so we have submitted a um request for that Amendment and we prepared a slide presentation to show you and give you an understanding of the differences from the originally approved set of plans uh to the amended set of plans we're still looking at the number of units is the same as you can see from the left hand side is the original design which uh and which utilizes the existing home at the front of southwester Street and then the units uh coming into the site and then the proposed septic system in the middle of the site and you know a little bit off the page is the drainage basin that was originally designed so then you can see the where the units were originally laid out and the limit of work and the limit of clearing on the right hand side as you can see there's been a a large reduction in the amount of pavement there's a a reduction in the amount of um clearing limit of work and there's also been a reduction in the area of the buffer zones uh with this you know revitalized uh a plan Amendment so if you want to go to the next slide so here uh are the the big differences key differences uh from the approved plans in 2022 to what we have now so we still have the same amount of units just a different variation of the style of units total of unit still at 37 including the house out front and the originally designed plans we had 182,183 which is roughly about 96,000 Square ft of reduction in pavement and then the limit of work which is the big one we originally had and we're reduced at to [Music] 389,000 3,550 square fet of Riverfront area and one of the things that we looked at is as part of the resource area and the turtle nesting area we originally had and discussed and got approved 14,18 or square feet of turtle nesting area and with this revised set of plans we we are able to increase that Turtle nesting area uh you know to 35,1 193 square feet which is a a big improvement from the originally approved set of plans with that reduction in pavement that we originally discussed is the comes the length of road as you remember um we had originally had pavement going around the units and around the septic system because of the style of the homes and the design of them as you can see from that that side the left side that Justin's pointing to so that most and most of that area is being removed and the pavement behind the homes are being removed and replaced with Lawns and and Grading and sloping down to that 25 foot uh no touch alter alteration Zone where with a reduction in the retaining wall for the pavement that was going around the back of the units so that reduction in roadway length is about a th a linear feet of roadway that we're reducing is part of this plan Amendment request and the increase in open space so we're with these revised set of plans we've got a 47% increase in open space and Landscaping areas that weren't uh in the originally approved plants next slide please what we tried to do is highlight the originally approved limit of work it's it's in that purple light purple line and you can see the limit of grading you can see the red line the red highlighted line is that 25 foot buffer zone and the orange line is the the 100 foot buffer zone and you can see how large the pavement area is going around the back of the units and around around the septic system and the grading and the the drainage systems that we had originally designed and had approv and you can see the the Basin that we had originally approved with the FL bays and and infiltration areas um you know in in around part of that riverfront area that riverfront area comes into the site which is more of that plus that Brown Line that you see at the top of the screen on next slide on Justin please this plan here really you know speaks a thousand words it it shows the the limit of originally approved work in red it shows the green line with the dashed line inside of it as the new limit of work and you can see that it comes uh further into the site and away from that 25 foot alter alteration Zone as well as the the riverfront area you can see the reduction between the green and the red line is that reduction in Riverfront area or alteration and the big one is the turtle nesting habitat which is shown in that purple area which increased in size as I previously uh discussed uh earlier next slide this is a little bit more detailed layout plan to show you you know where the units are where the turtle nesting area where our proposed uh drainage is going to the right or to the east of the site and the area of uh clearing the new tree line which is the limit of work which is also shown in this plan as you can see we are still outside of that 25 foot uh no alteration Zone next slide and this is uh the site p a portion of site plan the grading and utility plan that we prepared as you can see we do have a storm water basin uh for our drainage design we have four Bay water quality structures there's three of them we have our drainage uh Basin with the 15ot bench around the top for Access and maintenance uh which you know reduces all of this design here also you know reduces the amount of fill uh by roughly around 20,000 cubic yards of material and what we tried to do on this slide is show you the difference uh of the the fill and the cut areas uh for this site and you can see just from the the two pictures you have in front of you with in regards to the Earthworks you can see the difference in the size and the magnitude of the project that has been reduced as part of this uh plan Amendment and uh I think I said uh 20,000 cubic yards but we have right here about 25% reduction in the amount of uh fill material that's needed for this project which also makes it more economically viable for our owners uh next slide and then these are the new design of the the units the triplexes they all have one car garage they they have decks in the back they will have you know basements here uh so it makes it a little bit uh easier um for the grading and the design of the site and uh help us out with minimizing the amount of fill uh Mr chairman and members of the commission uh that's pretty much our presentation with our request for a plan Amendment if you have any questions we'd be more than happy to answer them at this time Mr chairman uh yeah I'm just wondering um if the fire department has reviewed this new uh design because they have a tendency to like to have an access road behind um the the the buildings but uh that's obviously not our our perw but uh it may I mean that's obviously a detail you're going to have to to review yes we're we're going to going to be in front of the planning board and um I'm sure that the fire department will will chime in at that time I can tell you the fire truck access through the site uh you know down that the the roadway to the culdesac is large enough for the fire track access to uh enter and turn around in the site and um yeah yeah I I mean we we don't have to review that here I just um I mean what you had before you had payment behind so they they couldn't complain about that I mean clearly from our perspective this is is uh it meets the intention of the Wetland protection act I think Mr chairman I think this is a much better plan uh it's more environmentally sensitive and also um you know with the uh truck traffic on on construction the amount of fill it's a it's a lot better plan because it was really driven by the the style of the units before so the style of the units were all on one level and here we can you know step the foundation in the back of you know some of the some of the units so that we don't have a lot of fill you know coming in so that's where that 25% reduction is coming from all right I just yeah go yeah first I want to I I appreciate this uh being uh more environmentally sensitive change uh that section in the uh Northwest of the site is maybe I misunderstand but is that that uh that line indicating that all that part is within the 25 foot buffer zone or how have I miss have I misunderstood actually could we see the maybe the first slide again um yeah I think it it it buts right up against it is is what we're going to see yeah so what we originally we we had it approved right up against that 25 foot buffer zone we in that area there so we had some uh tree clearing right up against that zone and we had a retaining wall to keep the The Fill away from that 25 ft uh that zone and and then we're still main we're still maintaining that uh in our new design you can see the grading in the retaining wall that we had yeah Justin zooming down so the red line is the 25 foot buffer zone the purple line is the limit of previously approved work so and the um the tan line that's running through some of the sites that's theot buffer zone okay I see all right and then that brown one to the east right he's highlighting that's where the riverfront area comes into the site so in when we talk about Riverfront you know uh part of the riverfront regulations does allow and uh permit the use of and construction of a detention Basin uh within that within that zone and that's kind that's the area we had the drainage before or we wouldn't have gotten an order of conditions and if you remember this was we got this order of conditions with some of the members that are on this commission and your agent at the time was Jennifer Carino um could you just go over what the uh the common space is going to be the open space so there's well there there's a bunch of different common spaces we have a community area here uh to the uh the rear area of the existing house lot and then there will be an area of open space and common space uh above and around the the proposed septic system a very very large area Okay um has I assume this request for amendment has gone back to um natural heritage for review and approval um this as far as I know I don't remember this being part of natural heritage but nesting yeah so that was if if I may uh this this was under the U perview of of Jennifer at the time when she was the agent and she thought and uh that part of the uh turtles and some of the eggs that she had seen that it would be advisable to have a turtle nesting area this wasn't a recommendation of natural heritage this was a recommendation of your agent so we we went along with her I'm sorry you weren't in priority or estimated habitat as far as the state was concerned okay no I got it so what we tried to do is you know uh review and and and discuss that information with Jennifer we came up with a plan to show that turtle habitat and she was more than satisfied at that time okay and the last question it I just want to go over that limit of clearing now that you don't have to do so much grading what's driving that um just the rear of the units are those infiltration had an infiltration trench back there so there's a um a the the really area drains in the back of those units so that we can uh still make sure that any of the runoff that's coming from the back area of those those units is being captured and then that's being brought to our detention Basin to the east side of the site okay so how what is the distance between the back of the deck in into the 25 and did you do everything you could to minimize that intrusion right up to the edge of that 25 it's about 20 30 feet to give them a little bit of a backyard at with like a two or 3% slope okay so you still have to have some grading back there I see to go to get back to grade to 98 is it I can't read that yeah that's that's correct so what we try to do is you know use the the previously approved limit of work and then you know bring that limit of work in where it was you know feasibly possible with the regrading of rating of the site and and um so that we could limit the amount of fill and also you know meet the intent of uh the D's rules and regulations on storm water and alteration of the riverfront areas okay I don't there is a reduction in in the amount of construction in that area too as well you said in regards to we don't have a retaining wall at the back of those units that are up against that 25 foot offer zone right um did John recommend this one be reviewed oh okay status of um stor water peer review is pending um and when does your current order expire so it was issued in 2022 and then we requested an extension through this this same board and it was extended through July 28th of 2025 okay so this this will obviously just mean M that it's not extended through this so it'll just be through the 2025 right yeah that's correct we're not asking for right further extension we're asking for the order of conditions to be amended to reflect these revised plans okay all right that's all I had and just for the record Julian yeah this is Corporate not me uh my computer is going to restart and I have no control over it in 11 minutes and 54 seconds uh so I hope I don't know how long this install is going to take but I'm going to try to call in or come right back all right well it's it's it's a just a when you say an install it's an update is it the yeah okay and I have no control when it happens it just randomly happens I no problem yeah okay I have a couple quick questions here yes sir sure Joe go ahead in this new design have we accommodated any snow storage on this site it seems to have squeezed down so I'm just concerned that there may not be enough space for storage uh there's there's plenty of room for sow storage on the site and we've identified them in the layout plan and all of all of the snow storage that we've shown is outside the 100 foot buffer zone [Music] and do we have any drainage in those areas I'm struggling seeing collection yeah most of those areas that I that we' shown are really landscaped areas I mean there if if uh you know there's no intent for uh any of the snow to be pushed into the Basin so there's there's really no no Provisions for a snow plow to get down to the Basin area so just to would be west of the Basin in inside of the landscaped areas that we have shown on the plants uh just to be clear there is no catch Basin drainage system on this site no there are catch basins on this site uh to to take the storm water on theground and bring it to the uh the four bay and through the water quality structures that we've proposed but are they uh associated with the road system or because I see I oh I guess cuac there catch basins in the the middle of the site right there okay where Justin was was just uh shown there there's a lot there's a lot less catch basins from the original plan and then the front of the site remain the same with the trench drain at the entrance um to the underground Chambers Behind the existing house um through a water quality unit as well all right uh further further questions chat Mr chairman uh right there's a there's a gentleman with his hand up um and so we'll go to him next but the commission memb is all set with questions for the moment uh and there's a computer labeled Rob distell I guess it is or yeah can you guys hear me okay uh we can hear you and clear so go ahead thanks for um uh including folks easily uh remotely I appreciate that I'm a resident down the street I'm not that close to this I'm catching up on it now that it's um under further development I was just curious and maybe this is a question for a later time but I was just curious when if plans are approved by the commission and the town eventually um when does the overall project um get started and about how long would it take to complete let's say the new plans just as a an estimate that's all just curious uh well let me just comment and then then the applicants can comment here all all of these I mean it the issue is to whether they get built depends on the economic conditions and you know the likelihood of economic success so it's an open question as to when when things get started it depends on financing and all of that but see maybe the applicant can can further comments on that so uh through the chair Mr chairman is my understanding that um you know right now technically we could we could start work uh with with the permits in hand right now clear the site start working on the proposed project the way that it sits and has been approved uh as it as it is right now uh is my understanding that our client would like to do a plan amendment to reduce the amount of construction cost and also uh start to build this project as soon as feasibly possible uh they're they're itching to get going on this so they want to start construction right away as soon as the plan amendments uh have been uh issued by the town all right and I just comment on that as you might have heard from our prior uh hearing uh that our director John Thomas is not able to attend so we're clearly not going to be able to close this uh tonight and also there there's the outstanding of issue of the storm water uh peer riew even though it's changed uh a project of this magnitude requires a little help uh okay Mr chairman who is the company doing the the storm water review please I'm afraid I do not know that that that is something that that John uh would have been discuss so at least comment on that Julian oh certainly go ahead uh we've sent it out for proposal we haven't got an estimate back uh we sent it out to Pat Brennan um if he doesn't respond bya tomorrow we'll send it out to uh potentially Force Le Whitten or Wesson and [Music] Samson uh does that help you m that's that's fine I just don't I mean Our concern is is that uh you know you know time is of the essence as well and I would hate to be waiting another month to to hear back from somebody uh on a class proposal so um Megan Megan if you could you know ping those other companies uh to make sure that they're you know moving forward with a proposal but I the know the thing is is that that proposal doesn't have to be a review and approved by this commission yes so uh I will do that but it is their busy season um so a lot of them are being slow to respond um it's just the way of it at the moment Julian uh yes uh this is a site I think that could we could do a visit on if we could have it stake and actually do a board visit here um okay that that sounds fine this is actually something we've reviewed in the past but uh it's it's you know we can certainly do a quick site visit I think we we have a lot of new members and I think it's just it's a site that has some uniqueness to it that um could be a good education here and really get us to a point where we know what we're looking at yeah I I agree and and to maybe save a little bit of um time on the staking Joe I think what may be important is the uh limit of work on the northwest side because that's closest to jurisdiction um I don't necessarily think we need the rest of it staked out um because it's out of jurisdiction the part in the riverfront is is allowed uh a storm water feature in Riverfront so I don't know how much we have to scrutinize that area but I I think that um the northwest side limit of work in blue perhaps within our jurisdiction would be helpful I would agree with that if we could also just stake the Basin [Music] ALS okay do we want the top of the Bas you want the top of the Basin you want the outer the outer rim outer edge of the Bas and not the bottom yeah there you go the correct yeah correct so I mean as the applicant is this may facilitate your your starting the project so are you AC is that acceptable to you that we can review this on I mean I just I we don't mind doing I can you know I we I'll discuss with the client about staking things out and having you access to site there's no there's no reason to prohibit you from from doing that or or requesting this information I just want to remind the commission that this is a plan Amendment this is not a new notice of intent agreed but but as Joe pointed out there are members who have not had the opportunity to see the site previously and this is a pretty significant project so I think it's a fair request uh we will need to coordinate it when our director returns because he will likely need to be a part of this but this can be uh I think coordinated through Megan as well so um Megan you'll you'll send out a an email for availability and and uh suggested dates yes I can do that excellent um okay and then once we get it staked out we'll send John and Megan an email um in regards to that being staked out and then schedule a meeting after that on site uh yeah the other thing is I just want to remind you Mr chairman and members of the commission uh if more than three members of the commission are present at one time this needs to be a posted meeting for the public to the public that you're meeting at one place at at one time uh actually there's a variation on that um we are allowed to do site visits we are not not allowed to um privately discuss um the the details without then reviewing those details at the meeting so you know if we have a site meet site visit we will be uh doing a a blowby blow when it when it is opened again at the public meeting and and that is consistent with the open meeting law [Music] okay I'm I'm not aware of that but okay if you say so well you mentioned Jennifer Carino and and she I mean I think fortunately all of our directors have been sticklers for avoiding violating the the open meeting law and so we are very very careful about that John has reminded of that so you can be comfortable that we're not going to be doing something that's going to violate the open meeting law and we will review the site visit in once a public meeting is again open okay bilan may I speak sure please uh oftentimes the commission uh their timeline doesn't match up as well so oftentimes the commission can't meet up as a whole anyway so open meeting law is not broken um so uh I think uh if there are no further questions we can continue this hearing until June 10 and um we can uh arrange uh the the site visit um offline um so if unless there are further questions or discussion we're ready for a motion for continuation of the hearing for file number 250 the amendment for file number 250-10 52 so moved second so we have a motion made by Dan seconded by Joe for a continuation of this hearing Paxton and Dan how do you vote hi hi Mark and Joe how do you vote hi hi and Lisa I think has unfortunately disappeared because of her computer T how do you vote hi and I'll thr in an I so the motion curies so thank you guys we'll look forward to talking with you next time around okay thanks very much everybody thank you you're back by now [Music] um so we're back now with completed new public hearings for this session and continued public hearings uh the next continued public hearings relate to a site at at uh on Crane Street follow numbers 250 1152 5354 um and this has continued for I believe prior three meetings or so do we have a representative of the applicant or did they request a continuation well I'm here Mr chairman Evan Watson W engineering representing the applicant okay so I'm assuming you have green sharing capabilities and um there were uh a few uh peerreview comments that um I think your your firm responded to so if you could just review those would they would that would be great well yes so thank you very much um again Evan Watson here representing the applicant uh We've made some progress on the the plans um and I think you guys will be happy with what we've come up with um first we took some input from the board uh there was concern about the location of the shared driveway and the associated grading being um approaching the 25 foot no disturb on the previous plans everything was outside the 25 shown here in purple but you can see that we've moved over the share driveway we've pulled back uh the limit of grading so that we have a much greater uh distance around here to the um the resource area I think the closest spot may be this um for storm water and it's about 63 feet away from the [Music] Wetland the other thing that we were asked to do was to evaluate oh we G let Lisa in oh do I have to do that all right there I did I guess I'm the host so if you want me to wait until Lisa is make sure she's up and running uh we we can do that because she has a oh there we are Lisa you're back I see her she's back great all right good good news um so we did have a Vernal pool evalu ation done by LEC our Wetlands specialist consultant and um John Thomas did want to make sure that they were using uh dip netting as well as uh visual observation so they went out on two dates April 19th and May 2nd and they're saying that based on the assessment it is not qualified for veral pool certification um I can scroll down to some photographs that they took I it was a very very wet spring um probably the wetest on on record and so as such there was some standing water in uh some areas uh they did find a few egg masses there but um because the water was fluctuating so much it were likely exposed to dry conditions and um all the the embryos died and they were covered in algae um so I think a um some frogs got excited when they saw some water there laid some eggs and then they dried out and came back again um John did say that it would be prudent to still recognize this as maybe a potential Vernal pool so what we've done uh We've again taken that into consideration from the last meeting so we've again that was also part of the reason why we moved a lot of grating away and then part of the peer review um we treated this is a critical area so we made sure that all of our storm water bmps did not have a discharge up through the 100-year storm um so the the area you were just referring to yes can you point that out on that I just need so that area okay got it yes that's this large area the other thing um to note it was brought up let's see they did do an assessment of um small depression on lot a it was dry on both days no standing water um or anything else so and I I did go to the site also and looked at that and there was no signs of any vegetation Etc so they they took a look at that for any signs of verle habitat and this this nothing there um and then let's see our storm water comments essentially he saw a few uh discrepancies in the calculation versus what was on the plan so we've made those adjustments um so they all match um he asked that we consider the um the site in a um critical area being that it's it's not a Zone 2 but is in the um Town's water protection overway district um so we address that again making sure that we had no discharges to critical areas um and then there was a discrepancy between the calculation and the um roof infiltrators which we we fixed um you we're basically treating the the storm water for each one of these houses goes to a uh roof infiltrator system and then the impervious areas from the site are directed towards some bio infiltration areas so he asked that we um let's see if I find the detail sheet add a detail for the uh bio retention area here uh which shows that it has plantable soil and then a free draining weer below and that's in accordance with the storm water management handbook so he liked that detail as well um just to go over things again this is just lot a with no resource areas on it or or buffer zones um but we do have a um rain Garden bio infiltration area here and we have our dry well for the roofs Lot B you can see we move the share driveway a little bit further away from the resource area pulled all the grading away you can see this line um right here is the 50ft buffer or 50 ft from the wetlands there's no 50ft buffer but um you know we're we're 50 feet away or or more than um we've increased the size of the um storm water management bmps so that there's no discharge and everything can infiltrate and then um oh I should also mention that we um oh let see we reduced the amount of earth work uh that's within the natural heritage area as well um and pulled away any um infrastructure out there just a little bit of grading and the conversion of of woods to La so this is Lot C same thing we pulled everything away and we've um moved the infiltration for the roof to the other side of the lot then finally lot D we've increased the size of the uh biofiltration area again um in the previous iteration we just had maybe like 0.1 CFS coming out of this pipe in the the 100e storm but now there's nothing coming out there um in any of the design storms um we did have corresponds with natural heritage they were just um questioning they wanted to see some photographs of these areas and they wanted to see um if we were to be using uh this area to to do some of the earth work to access the site uh this area on this is a um is owned by is currently owned by the owner it's in agricultural but and there is some existing access roads so they ask for some photographs and things about on that side as well so having heard back from them um doesn't necessarily include you guys from acting although I know you mentioned Mr chairman that uh we wouldn't be doing that tonight anyhow but um so that's the presentation I'd be happy to answer any questions or hear any input from board members or or the audience I I mean maybe we should do that this discussion after we complete our question so I'll I'll hold off uh any commission members have specific questions about this uh project and the changes that were presented can I ask a question real quick you certainly can sure go ahead um Evan and I might have missed it um did you provide an um isolated land subject to flooding Cel for lot a oh I I didn't specifically um put it out there but in the drainage report in the existing condition um the water that flows to that um spot is modeled and there is um that is able to infiltrate everything up to the 100e storm so there is no um water there's no flooding or anything to that that spot at all okay thank you no good question I apologize for not pointing that out a little more um um specifically can you elaborate on that so you did the calculations to show that it wasn't ilsf C can you zoom in first of all on existing conditions of of that area if you would yeah sure right here so right now we have this uh wooded area on lot a and a lot of this area flows to this depression um it was modeled for the 210 and 100-year storm um now the ilsf calculations are for a smaller storm and then you can based off of how much water that holds be it a quarter acre foot um would determine whether or not that's isolated land subject to flooding but in all cases um there was no or almost no water um being generated to that spot and there was no uh storage of any storm water Etc to that that spot so I guess the well if you go through the the storm water handbook the first thing you determine is whether or not it can hold the quarter acre foot then you run the 100 year to develop the extent or the boundary of ilsf so the first question question I have is does it qualify based on the quarter acre foot can it hold so there the different criteria is there's no Inlet there's no outlet and then it's can it hold a quarter acre foot um then you run the 100y year to develop the extent of it so I guess if you walk through it the first question is whether it can hold the quarter acre foot um I don't have that information I could look it up but that's you know a little technical to do here at the meeting so I can certainly um show that you know I I didn't go through that just because when we actually looked at what kind of storm War has generated off this site in the 210 100e storms it's essentially zero because it's all a soil and it's all wooded so um no water was going to it whether or not it was a um whether or not it could hold a quarter acre foot or could not hold a quarter acre foot there's essentially zero runoff um in the existing condition right but that's the second part so if you look to the hydrology handbook there's a stepbystep process that walks you through how to determine ilsf Yep this right so I I can that up okay thank you I'm confident it doesn't meet it but I just didn't um write it up as a separate item which I can do I mean considering we're gonna have we won't be able to close the hearing tonight anyways I can I can provide that okay thank [Music] you all right so uh any other questions from commission members uh and it looks like we have a question from an audience member so it not seeing any commission member questions uh computer labeled Neil Dion um if you want to go ahead and ask a question or I see it disappeared so there there you go um Neil Dian I live at 171 Pine Street I've spoke before at the meeting regarding this property um the first thing I want to mention and this is information for the commission I don't know if it's in the report or not uh but the study at the swamp area for the Vernal pool U they came out on May second now according to the wetlands protection act the uh opportunity the window of opportunity is the first week of March till about April 15th or so so in my opinion that was missed so you didn't get really get an accurate assessment of the area can anybody elaborate on that or am I am I mistaken well actually I'm going to pursue that that issue as well um I mean just for my own knowledge base because um so with your permission I I'll go ahead and go into my my question about that so um the the area of that uh Wetland system uh how how what's what's the approximate area in in acres I assume it's it's nearly an acre or I I'm I haven't calculated the I can measure it real quick well it doesn't have to be precise I'm just wondering approximately I think we talked about it last time and it's I think it's about an acre okay um so I I I you mean you made a statement stating um that it's not functioning as a Vernal pool and yet it's a a wetland and I I guess just conceptually I maybe maybe and I haven't thought of this previously maybe you can explain the difference between a wetland that is not functioning as a veral pool and a Vernal pool uh because it's it was my thought that any Wetland can provide the same function functions as a Vernal pool but a Vernal pool doesn't have the hydrologic connections but it does have the the seasonal water to to allow it to support the biology of a Vernal pool so uh maybe someone can clarify for me I because I'm I'm not sure I understand the this is the the issue Mr chairman if I could talk um it's the only thing I have I'm not an expert in Vernal pool certification um I did get the report that says it's not a Vernal pool from them but what I will say is If This Were A Vernal pool there's uh certain things that we must do to make sure that we um don't impact it and in the act it says that the um limit of the Vernal pool is you know if there was a Vernal pool found inside here somewhere like where there was a nesting area and U the criteria for veral pool was met it would extend 100 feet around that up to the limit of the resource area so the Vernal pool would not extend beyond the limits of the the resource area and then the things that we need to do to to meet that would be to consider it what's called a critical area and with that we need to employ certain bmps um those have been employed here we have um bio infiltration areas and roof um infiltration areas and then um we do not have any dist charges um via a pipe or direct discharge or otherwise uh directly towards the that Wetland um again cons if it were to be considered a veral pool um and then the other thing we did just to you know help out is we pulled everything away so if this was considered a Vernal pool or not considered a Vernal pool um what I'm proposing here uh meets the performance standards that would be required regardless of of whether it is or is not all right but um alisea I hate to put you on the spot but but maybe you can help clarify this for me I mean it was my understanding that a Vernal pool supports certain biological functions you know a series of of insect life cycles as well as amphibian life cycles um due to the nature of water that comes uh enough water comes in during the springtime when all of those Cycles are occurring um but it was also my thought that these things happen all the time in Wetlands um is that a a statement that you would agree or disagree with Lisa or I would tend to disagree so not all wetlands are viable locations for Vernal poles because what you really what they're looking for are Deep Pockets that stay wet to keep the eggs viable and I think that's what they ran into here is that the the eggs were laid but then the water dried up so it wasn't a great habitat for the veral pool now that said and and I think this is where John Thomas was going with this that's not to say another year the water would stay longer in a certain Loc and perhaps be viable for that egg Mass so I think that's why he's saying it's still potentially could be and I think yeah I I understand what you're saying but if you have a wetland area in general there is part of it that has water a lot of the time uh which would be potentially the drainage um Channel um although in it presumably I mean we're kind of getting into the weeds but I I would be I would be puzzled I mean I understand so what you're saying is that's that's at the surface that's dry most of the time I have some more information for that too um the veral pool the idea is that there's certain species that weay their eggs and are vulnerable to other Predators such as like mosquito Lara or um dragonfly larae fish um other things that need to be wet all the time so in a Vernal pool habitat situation the water rises in the early spring when those other predators are not there so that when they lay their eggs and they're vulnerable they're not predated by those other species and then the water dries out and then the amphibians are able to mature and flee the area um in an area that's a wetland that has standing water all the time those species that could predate on the vulnerable eggs can can Thrive and grow so that's why a wetland although it's a great habitat for all you know all these types of wetland animals is not specific to those type of breeding amphibians that require like a Vernal pool habitat I think I'm hoping that answers your question about the well I I I just am surprised something that an acre size area uh doesn't have anything in it within that that could have functioned as as Ral pool but but that's fine I I mean it's still a wetland it's still protected as you pointed out right but I but I think the the the the the key here is that LEC did find an egg Mass which to me says that at some point maybe a different season maybe a different year maybe even a wetter year which I can't imagine um those egg masses may have been viable this year they were not so I think I think in the spirit of it it sounds like they are treating this as if it were a Vernal pool and that's the most we can ask of them and I think Mr Dian made an accurate point that um they potentially were late to the party in order to assess this well the fact that they found egg Mass still tells me it's it's still a potential so is it certifiable this year no but that's not to say next year it could be so that's why I think we have to keep it on the PVP so if you look at the you look at the um D information on the web on the mapping you have pvps which the state maps as potential verles and you have CB cbps which is certified bur pools so this needs to be a VP which is a potential veral pool and we could we could ask them in the order of conditions to you know every year to check for the next five years to see if it's certifiable and then ask them to certify it which we should probably do well also in the ideal time frame um of when to look look for it so there is a qu there is a question on the board uh computer labeled Lois Hanley okay um Lois standby we'll go back to Mr Diane uh I like to also mention that there were four egg masses found and the requirement for to certify the Vernal pool is five now and exactly what I'm talking about late to the party because they came out on May 2nd which is just late so I just wanted to interject that well I I think your your point is well taken that it's still an open question it has to be labeled a potential Vernal cool okay thank you uh my second question is the driveway uh that driveway has moved awfully close to my proper line and do Evan do you have the distance between my property line and the edge of the driveway and let me move to the other um plan with more detail so I can get a better [Music] measurement 38 ft 37 and change okay so that's within the limit but has the the water run off from my property been included in those collection areas yes it has so um when we evaluate these um drainage components we do what called um subcatchment area and it does include any area from off-site properties that drain towards it um in both both pre-development and post-development okay because my concern is if something happens over there or you know it gets all clogged and it doesn't drain properly my property is going to flood um you don't have any concern here there's um this property here is lower um than your property um there is an operation and maintenance plan uh there to direct the homeowner to to clean these as needed and then there is an emergency overflow if for instance if we have like a very Frozen um time period and then we get a large rain or there's something that might cause it to overflow would overflow um again in a 100e storm or greater or emergency um away from your property because we're at about elevation 73 here and your site is about elevation 78 so it's it's a good five feet [Music] lower but okay if you're going to direct the home motor to clean that up or mainten for maintenance what homeowner you're directing it to who's going to be in charge of that because you got two homeowners they're going to start button heads and have a have a fight of who's going to be responsible for this well there'll be a um an easement for both of these uh homeowners to be used in this driveway and in that document it would identify um because again the the driveway itself needs to be maintained as part of the share driveway and that would be part of that component as well yeah all right I'm skeptical on that one thank you uh she all set Mr D we can go on to the next question I'm all set thank you all right you're bet so um the computer label to Lois Handley if you still have a question now is the time otherwise we are going to move on so any oh yes okay so hand is up go ahead she's muted maybe I can um yeah I don't know uh you able to take your computer off mute [Music] um Julian while we're waiting I just had a quick follow-up question yeah about the access can can you go over where the access is going to be again during construction term access I think you mentioned through another property um there's an existing road that comes through this site over to here um I could probably bring up I'm just wondering where it exits because we're going to be concerned with tracking from the site and so where does that road lead and do you need to cut any vegetation and any other so are there any other Wetlands on that other site no there's an existing road that does not need to be modified and there's um so it's here on train Street and there's an existing paved uh apron here that goes up beyond the high point and then it turns into a gravel road and then it turns into a dirt road that accesses the site so uh right now anybody can come and go on this well not anybody but you know the uh homeowner the land owner um so it is protected here if you wanted to put in um a condition that requires you know obviously any tracking that we do on any of the roads we'll make sure we we have uh cleaned up Etc so I I'm going to ask you to show that somewhere on the plan coming out onto Crane Street if you're going to use it for construction access and show a stabilized exit somewhere um maybe maybe you want to turn the LA the last section instead of ripping up pavement what you probably want to do is take that um first 100 ft of um gravel uh and turn that into a stabilized exit if you don't have that already on there so we have stabilized exits um at each sites here that's not on Crane Street though right right that's not at the street so and then here this this is all paved I don't know if you can see that clearly but this is all paved and stabilized up to the high point and Beyond so um anything that would come down here is on a p stabilized surface um coming through right but you're going to be tracking it onto Crane Street so wherever that pavement ends you mention maybe gravel so so that's where you'd want to put your exit so that first stretch of gravel going I'm driving down that road the first 100 feet maybe you want to take that gravel out and put a stabilized exit there so that by the time they get onto the pavement they won't be tracking it onto Crane Street and and you can probably show that on the plans that the contractor um we can approve it because it it's he's going to the site so we have to make sure crane Street's going to be free of any sediment so it should be part of your Swip all right uh so now uh computer label Lois Hanley yeah so hi I'm my name is I'm speaking for my mother uh uh I I live with her here at 50 Crane Street yeah uh and we're discussing the same situation that Neil Dion was speaking about about the uh Vernal pool that's out in the back uh supposed Vernal pool um I've lived here for 50 years and uh that area in the back uh most of my lifetime is always been full of water I've been back there as a child uh into my teens uh you know collect frogs Turtles and and salamanders and all kinds of things and we do have varying depths that go between that on that pond and sometimes years are a little bit drier and sometimes they're a little bit wetter all right now let me just ask for clarification the area you're referring to is that the approximate acre Wetland that we were discussing previously or is this now a different area no that's correct the the acre that you were previously speaking about all right uh and I think I think you know we've decided that even though the statement has been made it doesn't seem to be a veral pool we find that hard to believe so that we are you know requesting it be treated as a potential Vernal pool and the applicant is doing that and in future years it it it may well be that it is in fact a Bernal establish yeah uh Mom just wanted me to make sure that I clarified this in that we got our voice spoken in about that as well I understand I understand okay that was it that that that's all all right but but I think we we are in agreement that that um the the proper assessment has yet to be done and yeah and I think when when you know when they start clearing trees and to put these properties in we're going to have you know we're going to have some wet issues that are going to come towards our property as well as that Vernal pool area and we have a little depression between us and our neighbor which I think that's going to create a little bit of a problem because we have a storm drain down there that handles the Overflow water that comes in and you know so I don't know how that property is going to work that out or if they're just going to fill it and then we're going to get flooded or my neighbor going to get flooded because we're on uh the elevations that we pitched down how they're going to manage that storm drainage system those are just a few questions that we had on our list and I know that we don't have to discuss all this tonight but I just want to I just wanted to express those things that you guys can talk about them well all right so it was my impression Evan that um no drainage would go in the direction of the rear of the property which I believe is where 50 Crane Street yeah is that or or maybe yeah Mr chairman if I could just ask the the a butter to is this 50 Crane Street here is this your property well we we don't have the the plan up so I think we need to get the plan up oh I'm sorry yeah let me put the plan back up I'm sorry I'm speaking to myself here so we the trapezoidal property that you see on the plan U let me see if I can this here right next to the access road yeah we're right next to the access road so we are further down here yeah that trapezoid right there okay yeah so the all that is at a higher elevation than where we are there is a ridge uh right in here so any of the storm water for this site flows in this direction and we're not looking to fill in any um existing depressions or anything um along grain street so um the storm water evaluation that we did uh took into account any storm water that's flowing onto our property and any areas that flow away from our property would made sure that there's a property size what they call a best management practice or a BMP there so that we've actually reduce the amount of runoff that comes off the site and then during construction will'll be required to have a storm water pollution prevention plan um that will follow to to make sure during construction everything is is above board as well okay all right well I'll I I'll review those plans when they come out and then have questions when that when you develop them all right well it but I think as the applicant just emphasized this and in fact that the requirements of the Wetland protection act is no water can be shed to the adjacent property uh as part of the development yeah it and it wouldn't be my property that I'm I'm more concerned about as much as my neighbors because of the way that that flows down but if they can if they can capture that water so that it goes and so is that storm water going to go through the uh current Culver that they have to drain out into the river is that where that's intended to go so right now there's water that is a high point about here and it flows down through this way to this low point and I think there's like you said some type of pipe or something up higher yeah there's a St drain right there yeah that goes that way so we're leaving that low spot alone you can see the limited clearing there and what we've done is we've taken all of our driveway and we're pitching it into our own little depression over here which will is sized so that all the water will actually infiltrate into the ground um this side actually has very good Sandy soils and then all of our roof turn off will be infiltrated into a um an infiltration unit behind the house um so all this water heads this way and then there is a small amount of water basically from here that goes into that depression but it will ultimately be less than um what it was right now and that's what we're charged with you know in the act and just as an engineer to to make sure that all the Butters don't see an increase in storm water okay okay because we we get uh because of we're about similar elevation to that swamp that's out in the back uh you know when the groundwater Rises we get through our foundation walls through at the footing you know to the stem walls it it leaks through there a little bit on high water storms so uh we don't need any more infiltration of water that's already building up all right uh well that's you kind of summed up um the intention of the Wetland protection act and that that's really the summary of this of this whole process of to be sure that neighbors are not impacted by new develop okay well thank you very much for your time all right very good thanks for your question uh so if there's no further questions or discussion as we uh um mentioned we're not going to be able to close tonight and with your permission we'll entertain a motion to continue these Collective hearings uh until June other questions Mr chairman okay uh that Mr Deion that's not really a question it's I want a piggyback on the access road that that road and that area behind there cannot be used to access for construction that is APR land restricted it will require a special permit through the Massachusetts Department of Agriculture and chances are that they are not going to uh allow that so I just want to throw that out there so the most your options are going to be from Pine Street and Crane Street to access these uh properties for construction very well that's all I got thank you all right very good um so I think we're at the continuation uh motion step yeah Mr chairman I would request uh that the board continue to the next available hearing okay so uh Dan made a motion through June 10 second seconded by Lisa uh so beginning with uh Dan and Mark hi uh Lisa and Paxton hi hi and Joe and where is our last member I'm had to get off Julian I have a conflict of interest abstaining okay but we we lost um lost a member um t t had to leave is that what you said um yeah she had a conflict she had a meeting um but she might come back all right so uh we have um we have Dan as a a yes Joe as a an exstension and Paxton [Music] was that an i Paxton yep I I all right and then Mark and Lisa I hi and I'll throw it an I so U Dan you got all that oh uh I'm sure Megan does okay well we we dropped we Tama dropped out so that was the only um all right so our next item is um uh file number 250- 11144 um 0 Reservoir Street uh a 14 Lot subdivision do we have a representative of the applicant or is this a request for continue they requested to continue until the 10th all right looking for a motion so moved second have a motion from Dan seconded by Joe Dan and Paxton hi hi Joe and Lisa I I and Mark I and I'll throw it an I um and tomama is absent file number 250- 11151 300 South Washington Street um do we have an a representative of the applicant uh yes we do um Mr chairman again Eric Das registered professional engineer for strongpoint engineering solution uh representing the applicant to 300 South Washington uh and you'll have to refresh my memory as to what the outstanding items on this project were absolutely so we were last before you folks on this project in I think it was your first meeting in April um at that time we were going to peer review um and I don't believe we had started that process yet um so Pat Brandon did the peer review on this um and we continued subsequently just a few times to be able to address um his comments and be productive when we got back here so Pat had a couple of very minor comments um really the the primary comment that he noted was that our surface infiltration basins were previously proposed Within within 50 ft of the Wetland boundary and he's absolutely right under the D storm water management guidance um they're supposed to be at least 50 feet away so we reconfigured those basins um to be more than 50 feet away um from the boundary of the bordering vegetated Wetland uh we revamp the drainage report to account for all of those things um all of the drainage still works uh as advertised and I think we talked before we have much more actually on this proposed design in the way of storm water recharge and water quality uh than we're actually required um just so happens it ended up working out very well that way um so we we're in compliance with that uh there are a couple of other things that Pat suggested just as updates and improvements to uh the construction sequencing in the onm plan um with regard to the timing of getting the surface Basin stabilized to have that happen sooner in the construction process then later uh so we added some notation to that effect to the construction sequence um and added some requirements for mowing these basins um in the on andm plan um really those are the finer thing that really all that we changed um we did receive a letter from Pat indicating that he is satisfied with our revision um and he feels that we hit the mark on this one um so that's really where we're at and uh our um director John Thomas uh indicates on his report that he agrees and uh we will continue this hearing but likely be able to act on an order of conditions next time great so questions from commission members or for that matter anybody uh uh and if not we can consider a motion to continue this hearing until June 10 so [Music] moves second second I think Mark got second by a micr second so uh motion by Dan seconded by Mark uh Dan and Mark how do you vote hi hi Lisa and Paxton hi hi Andre I and I'll throw in an ey so curious so um I don't think you're GNA have to attend next meeting but you can check with the office uh Eric because I think it's primarily we're happy we close and then we act on an order of conditions fantastic I will definitely touch base with bean and John and see what we can do all right very good thank you um [Music] we are now up to our request for certificates and compliance and this is this is a little bit bumpy because [Music] um we the the first request the 250- 585 um 61 West Main Street the Honeydew Donuts or honeydew I don't know what they call themselves now um it's still kind of got some questions so I personally would favor just tabling this till next time we can certainly close it out next time why not yeah I mean this is um the the actual work on this needs to be reviewed to know what was in the ground with regard to act on the the new proposal um if I may Mr chairman yeah just to clarify this request for certificate compliance is actually related to an order of conditions that was issued from the project in 2004 that was intended to expand and create a larger building that never went forward um so this order is it's a expired and it's just sort of hanging out there for work that never happened it's not related to the after Thea notice of intent that we discussed earlier tonight um so certainly if the I mean it's kind of six one half another if the commission would like to continue I think the two items that are on the agenda tonight kind of go hand inand I just wanted to clarify that that that it was a different matter yeah and I agree with that I agree with that but um there will be nothing lost welle having having John available to say everything is all set we can just go ahead and do it that that's the the missing voice that I don't want to ignore no absolutely I agree and the next item I'm not sure because there's no pressing need to do that one either but uh um okay um Megan sure go I apologize I guess I thought we were moving on to the next one so I jumped the gun um that's fine you do a good job jumping the gun though um all right so Eric you're happy that we're just going to table this and deal with it next meeting absolutely that's fine all right very good and and so we will move on to 250- 1083 60 rear Reservoir Street um concerning uh installation in ground pool so Megan tell me your thoughts um just how you were saying that you may want to table it until John Thomas gets back which um if that's what the commission prefers um I just know that this one is in the middle of trying to close a house um that has been put off a couple times because of the outstanding COC um so this one is a little bit more time sensitive um and it's my understanding that the completion of this inground pool has been long done so I personally would have no problem um having the commission app act on it but I can't because I have a shared border um with this property so I will recuse as far as the um the vote goes or abstain from the vote but if other commission members are are happy that it has been um I think it determined by John to be fine let me see what his report [Music] was yeah Julian his note says that he expected on May 14th recommends cic be issued so I think um I have to abstain but U I can certainly entertain the motion um if other people are conf are comfortable acting on that note yeah yep I'll make a motion to issue a full certificate of compliance for file 250-1087 second you all right motion made by Lisa seconded by Paxton uh Lisa and Dan how do you vote I hi Paxton and Joe I I and Mark I and I'll throw in a an extension and um so uh the certificate compliance passes for uh that project uh and in the middle of it I lost my agenda uh so we now are uh at ERS of conditions for initially 360 South wer Street number 250- 11143 and the sun has gone down I'm going to step away and turn on some lights and yes if you're wondering at home this is Live Well I just couldn't read really so um so um I got to say I I'm going to I'm going to sing the Praises of this new organization of the orders of conditions because the only unique items on this draft are in the findings um and um other than that I mean I I'm totally happy with the draft anybody have specific comments to amend [Music] it uh I'll make a motion to issue the um order conditions for file where are we here uh 250-1137 [Music] uh motion by Lisa seconded by Mark uh Lisa and Dan how do you vote I I Paxon and Joe hi Mark hi and I'll in time carries and next item is um order of conditions for file number 250- 11558 Country Club Way involving uh installation of a garage I believe uh and again the only unique items on this are in the findings and I have no suggestic changes uh I'll make a motion to issue a order conditions for file 250-15 five as written second uh so we have a motion Lisa second Paxton Lisa Dan how do you vote hi hi p and Joe hi hi Mar hi and I'll throw an eye we have draft minutes [Music] for May 6th one very long section for zero Reservoir Street but everything else was pretty straight forward I just had two small typos I happen to catch on uh page four for 250-15 underneath that it says motion to continue it's a different file number 144 or 1144 I didn't didn't see that where where Beach 4 for the 300 South Washington Street 250-15 one I see it yeah and then um very minor but the numbering at the bottom on page uh four into five or 1138 starts with three and four to be one and two let's my nitpicky changes for the day okay I think you stole Dan's Thunder there mark sorry Dan that's it's all right Mark it's good to good to get a uh rest I I probably wouldn't caught the file number one if I hadn't been filling out Mullen forms for all of those so yeah ah I see all right uh suitable Corrections any other questions comments I'll make a motion to approve the draft minutes for May 6 2024 as discussed and did I hear a second coming from Dan why not okay I heard a noise I wasn't sure where it came from yeah uh it's just yeah just some minor stylistic things uh uh you know some backwards uh possess the little Mark for the possessive s is uh apostrophe s is the wrong way and then there's some things that you can send I'll just talk yeah I'll I'll send them I'll I'll just I'll talk to Megan when I see her we we'll all agree all right so uh let's see motion by Lisa seconded by Dan so Dan and Joe how do you vote all right hi Lisa and Paxton hi hi Mark I'm stained I wasn't present all right and I'll throw in an eye um so we're now at the spot in the agenda where we really kind of need um me John to fill in some things so unless someone else or or Megan do you have anything that you want to say about the report from staff old business new business is John being nice to you that kind of thing he's always nice um I know I don't have anything for report from staff um I did have uh uh we were thinking about starting to um do in-person meetings again yeah um and wanted the commission's feedback uh we have the ability to have inperson meetings starting June 10th um so it's up to the commission obviously what your preferences um I just think they' have to be hybrid meetings um Zoom has to still be available but um you know I think at some point we're going to have to go back to in person so we might want to try starting sooner rather than later so I guess my first question is are other uh boards and commissions already doing hybrid yes I I believe all of them are hybrid and um so it's the mechanics of it um early on I attended a uh Hy planning board meeting and I I could not hear as a someone par participating remotely I couldn't hear what was being said in the meeting room uh particularly when a member of the audience um had a had a a question so I I guess that's the question is the current Arrangement uh addressing um the access to the audio well enough so that everybody in fact is participating so I guess I could ask planning they've been doing it for well over a year now hybrid um and I don't know what their feedback is on it the other option because if we did it in June um we'd be doing it at the library the other option is to wait until we're in the new town hall where we'll be having the uh bigger conference rooms uh and maybe the setup will be different and um more readily uh available to facilitate that type of um type of hybrid meeting um yeah I mean as as the chairman I'm kind of on the spot because I got to be monitoring questions in the audience and you know what's going on in the room at the same time so that that's why I'm concerned about the mechanics of it so part of it I know Brian car Michael uh the Secretary of for planning board he's on the laptop um monitoring kind of the zoom call for the um commission or for his board so he'd say you know there's a question on zoom and I would you know for that would be me I would let you know there's a question on Zoom from such and such I'd either tell you what the question is or we'd allow them to speak through the zoom all right um so basically you'll be that you'll be a co-pilot that uh yeah all right well that's better anyone else I have a question Megan uh at the library do we have the same type of capabilities of she screen sharing versus whether the plans are up on a whiteboard I haven't been there yet but I've watched many Town meetings and you know I do feel that the ability for the public to see what we're discussing uh without the proper video footage um might be not the best so the way I understand that happens is um nor media goes and they'll Focus um on like pointing the camera to who's speaking or who's presenting so they they're Pro projecting uh via Zoom to everybody on Zoom as well so if someone is presenting um like a hard copy of something that isn't being they're not sharing on Zoom everybody on Zoom can still see it so when someone is sharing plans how do how does that work because I've seen some Norton media and I also did a presentation at a meeting and I can tell you the public could not see my presentation the way it's been explained to me is that nor media has um a camera that's pointed at the person that's presenting and they're also linked in with the zoom meeting um so that they should be able to show it live so the presenters is always in person in the cameras looking at a a whiteboard just like we used to in the old days right is that correct because personally I think the ability to share a plan on the screen on Zoom is tremendously better than I can remember sitting in that room where nobody could read the plan from across the room and the public would have to get really close to the white to the to the presenter on the easel it was like old school it so we also have the ability where because it would have to be hybrid as long as I have access to a computer I could always pull it up on the screen as well um the same plans even though they have a hard copy I could pull up the same plans for everybody to see as well so so basically we would be running two meetings simultaneously one on remote uh with screen sharing and and one in a room yes well uh okay uh I'm game as long as I don't have to run both of them and like I said this is just food for thought I mean I just know that eventually we're going to have to do this um unless uh everything's extended so I don't know what feeling so I think when we talked about this early on WE deferred it to when new number one when New Town Hall was going to be open because we didn't know if logistically it was going to be all set I remember deferring it to the fall and number two from what I'm told in the business um it is the the video um the zoom remote is absolutely going to be extended that's the word on the street in the I I would prefer that personally yeah so I don't think there's any going back now what they're saying and I guess I I get you see this is the this is the question is um are we are we uh insisting on going back to an old technology simply because it was tradition and yes there were growing pains with remote but there you know people are used to remote and and they you know it is extraordinarily convenient for people not to have to you know at a certain time leave their house jump in a car come all the way down to a meeting room which in the summer is fine in the winter can be a mess it it definitely is convenient espec especially as someone who works at the town I think it's convenient but there is also the concern of you know the older Generation Um that you know may not be able to have easy access to the internet or have trouble logging in um they're they're the ones that have had the toughest time with this so it's you know important to take them into account as well um well I can say and then there are the older generation that has Mobility or access to Transportation issues so you know there's there are two ABS to that concern about and well whatever I I mean I I think we should put off the decision until we have at least the new town hall y I know most towns I do business in it's it's one or the other I haven't encountered the hybrid yet it's either in person or it's remote and I just you know putting that perspective I I think we also need to think about we're a group of volunteers so I think we need to make it easy on ourselves if this hybrid approach is going to make it more difficult for us then I think we need to think about that we should be doing what's I mean not only what's easy for the public but what's easy for the commission as well easiest and how many oh sorry or anyone who knows this do do we know how many um meeting rooms the new town hall is going to have well I know it's going to have a very large one um and then I think two or three additional um smaller ones and are they all going to be equipped with I I don't know the answer to that I think they probably would be but I'm not sure yeah I I um I don't know this is this is um I you know I'm trying to think the right analogy where we have a clearly and improved technology as far as both access and Clarity and um trying to mix an old and new way of doing things and coming out with something that works is going to be difficult I guess we can wait to try it but well we did have that one hybrid meeting um a little while back um it didn't go horrible but it definitely was a learning curve does the town have um there's things that there's probably multiple different brands but the owl devices where there like a speaker in the middle and then it follows kind of who's talking even if there's like a crowd it'll still point the direction of where there's sound Pon that's science fiction I don't know what you're talking about it is I was I was on one of those I thing the thing was follow I was in the Boston office and it was following me around that thing yeah I mean it's probably a Dro in a bucket dropping the bucket for a new town hall to put you know owl device and two two to three rooms so well how fictional could it be when we have when this the speaker here has a a yellow box around their uh around their um they know who's speaking so yeah but if if multiple people speak then the El boxes show up all over the place but but but at any rate I I mean I I'm finding Zoom to be very workable right now particularly with the screen sharing all of these plants are electronic digital records um the only way they can be presented to a meeting room is if you have a large screen display or if everybody in the meeting room has a laptop and and and then the issue is well if there are other people remote how are they seeing so you have to be running a second meeting with screen sharing and then the presenter has to be doing that and addressing the screen I just think a hybrid meaning is it's like flying two airplanes at once I know I'm new to this and I don't have stacks of paper sitting in front of me and I like that yeah I mean I print the I I print the the orders and the um and the uh the minutes but uh other than that a lot of stuff I just review on the computer exactly okay so we can wait till Town Hall opens up and uh see how it goes see how the meeting room is configured and uh decide that yeah and I mean maybe we can on our own review you know attend some of these other hybrid meetings like like planning and and U maybe you can send us links so we can log on to some of those meetings as they're going on and and we can just observe whether they're they they've got it finally polished or whether there's there a lot of bumps yeah because uh they have one tomorrow night so I can send you guys one to for tomorrow all right but uh because I think that'll help if we can review how other other boards are doing it um and then we can we can have more to make our decision about okay uh there was the issue of of docks and I guess there's a lot of information to be discussed about that I think we really need John to help us out with that uh but it's I think that's going to be an ongoing uh issue to to get the town I guess in compliance with the chapter 91 requirements is that your feeling Lisa yeah you're you're on yeah our our bylaw should absolutely be consistent with uh chapter 91 and DCR requirements so they definitely need a chapter 91 license and it is uh absolutely painful it's about nine months and can go up to between 18 and 30 grand to get a license so well I presume there's a mechanism whereby that the the town has a procedure where people can add on to it and it can be less of a project is that correct what do you mean so the the chapter 91 permit permit process is completely independent of the weet protection act it's a separate set of regulations So you you're saying because I thought if the town had a bylaw you're saying a bylaw can't be a substitution for chapter 91 definitely not oh gosh no no no so chapter 91 is very prescriptive it's been around it's the colonial ordinance of 1797 uh it's been around forever it's one of the oldest regulations on the books in the Commonwealth and it's anything over uh flowed what we call flowed tidelands or formerly filled tidelands so if you think about most of Boston it was filled in where the original they go back to the original Shoreline anybody that wants to put anything a building you name it within the original Shoreline which used to flow you have to get a permit it is crazy town um but it extend so chapter 91 jurisdiction on the Inland end of this uh extends to Great ponds so they will absolutely need a permit a chap 91 license to build a dock so our that's that's the the reason that the great ponds are so these were all the structures that were present that far back and so very few man-made structures within Massachusetts at that time yeah yeah I think the bottom line is sorry just one more thing the our bylaw has to be consistent with the 91 regulations and I think that's what John was realizing that our bylaw our Bo our what whatever it was the Boating so our bylaw would still apply to the man-made structures it it would yes yes anything proposed yes julan I have a quick question is this something we can take into executive discussion to get this ironed out and not on a regular meeting well uh it's not just executive I mean I think there has to be and then presentated to the public at at the end once we have our determinations and everything well because we're gonna have to obviously we're edit bylaws and all kinds of things right but but just the basic issue that Lisa is is discussing is it's an education for all of us that it's a topic that we haven't really addressed because we've primarily been enforcing the we protection act um and I think it doesn't matter if it's executive or or not it's it's it's an open you know these These are this is the legal structure of the state of Massachusetts so correct but article 91 we have no enforcement agency it's just a checkbox we need on our list because we're not in control of it we're not the enforcement agency we're not the issuing agency it just needs to be in order that's that anything we issue needs to be in compliant with article with chapter 91 sorry chapter1 and most commissions will reference you know send us a copy of your chapter 91 license when you issue it there may be a cross reference you can cross reference it you don't have to um but the applicant and anybody around that um Pond needs to be aware so basically anybody that has a doc there today should have a chap 91 license the public needs to know that Y and so a few years ago chapter 91 had what they call an amnesty program and they told everybody in the public look if you did something that you know wasn't licensed you built a dock AER wherever it was um and you didn't get a license now is your time to come forward there won't be any penalties and I they everybody like I don't know how many years to uh the amnesty program um and I don't know why that didn't filter down to um you know somebody on great ponds there's only a handful of them in the state so why they didn't send it to everybody I don't know well the I mean this is It's the state's problem really and and perhaps that's yeah you're right but as a town we can't we can't uh permit it unless someone has said okay here's my chapter 91 exactly okay yep and the and the 91 license has to be uh signed I think it's by zoning and the planning department I don't know if concom has to sign the application I should look that up I haven't done one in couple years but um it does have to have uh local approval the license does so well I I mean I think as a commission as as just a you know part of the Town structure having some kind of a nice little synopsis written up as you point out this is the history of chapter 91 it is a state function but we happen to have a a water body that where this state law applies that as an information sheet that may be helpful for us to put or yeah and a minimum it should be cross referenced in our boting or whatever that bylaw is called waterways by law waterways by law yes should be cross referenced on [Music] that all right well this is um obviously something that's going to have to be uh more thoroughly delineated and U and let's see we have anything else on our I know lost my last page of my agenda oh here we go uh Rose farm update I think we'll just wait for John to talk to us about that inperson meetings be touched on and uh so I think we're all set let someone else has something to talk about yeah I'll make a motion to adjourn 8 8:45 second yeah how much fun has it been all right good night guys night night