##VIDEO ID:ZXDoNQ2-ihU## the opening of our regularly scheduled um meeting of Norton Conservation Commission um it is Monday October 7th 2024 and it is now 6:30 p.m. and as is required we will begin the meeting by reading our Preamble uh required because this is a remote meeting so go ahead Dan you are you are frozen Dan so I don't know if you help Dan uh I guess Dan's reconnecting so I think in the meantime we will go ahead and read the uh Preamble um pursuant Governor Healey's March 29th 2023 Bill extending several Co era policies and programs by allowing virtual meetings to continue from March 31st 1st 2023 to March 31st 2025 this meeting of the Norton Conservation Commission will be conducted via remote participation to the greatest extent possible specific information and the general guidelines for remote participation by members of the public and or parties with a right and or requirement to attend this meeting can be found at the end of this agenda members of the public attending this public hearing SL meeting virtually will be allowed to make comments if they wish to do so during the portion of the hearing designated for public comment by raising their hand virtually or pressing star9 and participating by phone no inperson attendance or members of the public will be permitted but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceeding in real time via Tech technological means in the event that we are unable to do so despite fast efforts we will post on the Norton uh Cable website an audio or video of this recording transcript and other comprehensive record of proceedings as soon as possible after the meeting uh so Dan I don't know if you were able to reconnect are you are you there currently he is not but so tonight members Joe carvalo has just entered so for instance we still have a quum I'm having some video problems but I am here okay all right uh so members participating tonight are myself Julian kades um Dan will likely be back he's seems to be having connection problems that's Stan Pearson or clerk um we have Mark Fernandez piston hallw and um Joe carvalo uh unable to attend tonight is Tom vest and it appears that Lisa cor Roa um let's see who am I missing just Tom vest and Lisa cor Roa are unable to participate tonight and we have our director John Thomas and our assistant Megan harup also participating um so uh for members of the public that may not have been aware of how we reorganized our agenda we are starting initially with uh any projects that have requested continuation and I I don't think we have any on tonight's agenda but we had two previously they're still active yes so we had October till October 28th was the um 250 1163 for TPC the notice of intent and then until November 25th we have 250 1161 for 171 West Main Street which is the abbreviated notice of resource area delation so those are the two projects that are lingering and we'll be getting them for the one one at least one of them for the next meeting so okay um so we will get to our continued public hearings in a moment but we have our minutes draft minutes of the 23rd of September um to review and [Music] um I guess uh the only question I had and it may not be um I mean we have um attending that last meeting uh we had a full board but uh in in looking at at the voting group um I don't think Joe was at the last meeting Joe was not here last time ah all right so then then Joe needs to move to the absent column in the in the attend attendance okay that that was the only okay yeah because I didn't notice him voting at all so um all right so that's the only thing that I noted anybody else have any questions or comments I don't think you can make a motion to approve these minutes because Joe can't approve them and Dan not fly in the meeting all right well that makes it easy um we will uh T them Dan just connected or reconnected Dan you there yeah sorry about yes I don't know what I I accidentally hit the uh uh x button and then I've been trying for a few minutes now to get back in okay well do you have any questions about the minutes we're going over the minutes right now did you have any questions about those no no no questions all right so then for instance looks like the four members can vote on the meeting minutes from the 923 meeting to approve the minutes meeting second all right so we have a motion by Mark second by Paxton and Dan if you're still there how do you vote and along with Paxton and Mark yes uh I can you hear me I we got that yeah I okay we got it and Paxton and Mark I I and I will vote an i and we'll note um Joe as an exstension but yeah Joe is still here okay all right so that deals with with um minutes uh any comments on enforcement and violation anything new about those so like I said last last time we had our meeting 92 East Main Streets um going through the process of being rehabilitated and restored so we're going to wait till the spring on that one I've talked to the 258 plane Street folks they're still waiting to um I guess figure out what they want to do with the property before they move forward with the uh restoration they know that it needs to be done they understand the whole entire um you know restoration work that needs to go out there they're just waiting to get back to me they said hopefully you know by next spring they can have something in in place um the YMCA I actually informed them uh last week that um we need to pick up the pace on this restoration work and kind of thing of that nature so I told them that I'm looking for something uh the next meeting which is October 28th because the work occurred about two months ago so I'm waiting to hear back from them I haven't heard back from them but if they don't show up or they don't provide us anything by the 28th then I'm going to to the commission to issue an enforcement order so that way they can make the right necessary um actions and understand the severity with kind of this enforcement policy that the town has to follow so um that's it for updates on enforcement and violation notices uh and in this section we have um a time slot for any public comments for members of the audience who want to bring up any issues with with regard to conservation of the Wetland protection act and if there are no questions uh I think we can move on uh if there are questions just take your mic off mute and ask them otherwise Department updates so we just received some updates to this I guess there's been a lingering kind of um shac landfill kind of status thing um with with the I guess the the feds and and the state so um that all got handled through the I guess the legal court system so the town is one of oh 12 entities that needs to pay a source of some money to um I guess as part of the settlement case so that's being handled by the town and their attorney so that's being processed this month um I'll let you know how everything else works out with that but um it's just just that kind of happened like five or six years ago so um we're just kind deal dealing with that now I gu like I got a question about that because it was my understanding that it became Town property with no liability to the town it it would had been in private hands uh and the town accepted it only because uh it was partly an estate issue and and uh the Federal people needed a a proper way to proceed with with the REM remediation so what what kind of obligation does the town have financially uh financial obligation well all in all the whole entire sum of money is well above $1 million but the town has to pay only a fraction of that um I think it was thousands of dollars versus the um hundreds and thousands of dollars that the town of Ador or the city of Ador needs to pay um so I I don't I don't know all the inner workings of it because it was kind of before my time but all I do know is that they finally the legal court system and the attorney figured out with some sort of I guess settlement case and I wasn't involved with any of the the information or any transactions that went went in but I just want to let you know that it's going to get settled and um you know there's going to be no need for restoration or Rehabilitation of the the wetlands were exposed to I guess significant damages or impacts yeah I guess the only liability of the town would have assumed and I I don't even know if it applies is whether or not the town issued a permit to the shacs to put Phil in the Wetland um because all of the fill that went there I I know that area accepted the Thompson chemical fire debris uh and then shac apparently made the agreement to accept material from nuclear metals and and um although it might have been TI at that point uh metals and controls I think it was so I I'm I don't know just as long as it's not an obligation with regard to the restoration work itself yeah so it's a settlement agreement that no restoration work needs to happen or occur that's what I understand from my what I've read through it so far is that the state's going to take on the money and they're going to basically pursue whatever they need to do to to fix or resolve the situation how they need however the state wants it they're basically finding all these parties and that was the settlement that we pay the feds in the states um this sum of money in collaboration for all the damages that were caused by as part of this process years and years and years ago does does Mike have a handle on this issue because I I might he he does he does have a handle on it it's been you know on his desk I just I haven't had any handle on it so just out of my own curiosity I mean chaac was is is the reason why I'm on this Commission because um you know because of the radioactivity there um so I'll I'll I'll at some point drop in on Mike and try to get the details because I'm puzzled because I know that with regard to the town taking title of that property that there was not I mean that was part of the agreement with the federal government is that we were not going to be held uh liable financially so I have to see what is the source of this liability and whether or not somebody just forgot and are not reading the the agreement properly or what because otherwise nobody in town would have said yeah we'll take title yeah I I don't deal with title agreements and things of that nature I know that the select board is in charge of all those things and unfortunately I don't think it is even conservation land that the the portion that the the fines are being because it wasn't entitled to us it was entitled to the to Andrew in the select board so my guess my guess is it's their land and they're handling this situation the way they need to handle this situation uh at their discretion and you know because it wasn't that was none of the fees or anything were coming out of um the Conservation Commission for to pay for the Boyer and everything like that so I understand but the the town the town agreed to take title because everybody was ringing their hands about how to proceed with the legal process and the town was willing to facilitate that by taking title if the federal government would relieve the town of the liability of what was in that site and that was the agreement that was struck so I have to see what is the root of this financial obligation so I was sent over a bunch of information I can forward over to Julian so that's what I'll do is I'll forward all that information over to you I actually put it up on that Google Drive too for everybody John quick question for the record property address uh off the top of my head I can't give it to you good I'm not familiar with the site that's why I'm asking well if you go down um Union Road Union Road and super fun site you see the the Monstrous Elber landfill it's a super fun site it is but it's just it starts at the El line and comes uh toward the the Norton side until you get the the old shac property I can't remember I'm assuming the shac property is still there the house but the house the area that's all fenced off and cordoned off and then we have the house on the other side of the street it's like a garage G yeah yeah thank you yeah it's all fenced in but um you know the whatever contamination there was was confined to the fenced in area because the house even the well was tested and there was no contamination of any kind there all right so I guess that's uh shac and uh I will follow on that um next item is the uh contined public U hearings uh first item is 2 file number 250- 11620 Hill Street um as I recall there was no there were no outstanding issues and the intent was to close and then later act on the ERS of condition does that sound right that's correct so uh unless there are any questions from members of the audience um we can entertain a motion to close the public hearing for this file number moved second we have a motion by Dan second seconded by uh Joe for closing the hearing on file number 250- 11162 so Dan Paxton and Mark how do you vote i i i and Joe I and I'll throw in an eye so that the motion carries um we will take the um orders of condition discussion uh at a later time file number 250- 11165 um 225 South Wier Street was an anrad um hearing uh and we I believe this is the same situation where all of the data was discussed and this was held to close now um so unless there are any questions we will again proceed with a motion to close the hearing for file number 250- 11165 make a motion to close hearing number 250- 05 1165 1165 sorry motion by Joe seconded by second seconded by Mark uh again roll call vote starting with Dan Paxton and Mark I I I go I and I'll throw in and on motion series and again we'll deal with the anat um oad later um we are now at our first new public hearing it is file number 250- 11166 concerning uh uh 257 259 Mansfield Avenue uh notice of intent and why don't I just allow the representative of the applicant to introduce the major project uh who would that be absolutely good evening uh members of commission my name is m on basy with with bowler engineering representing the applicant who is a NES group who who represents the the property owner the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers so I think you can probably share your screen to bring up the plan too um sure can you guys see that okay we can cool I apologize for all the color I hope it's just not making anybody seasick but wanted to try to try to show everything as clearly as I could um part is at 257 U Mansfield app just south of the the Town Line with Mansfield um right now there's two existing dwellings on the property one here at the at the front one here at the back there's some some pole storage some some gravel storage area and some driveways um this a is actually just south of their headquarters in Mansfield which is this property to the north um and they're looking to do a new training facility um here the the resource areas um on the site are are primary bordering vegetated Wetland so this this kind of Channel Wetland through here is a bordering vegetated Wetland along an intermittent stream um there's also bordering vegetated Wetland delated here kind of along the the tree line up gradient of of the the Norton Reservoir and then again along the the for here on on this side um the project proposes a um an 8,500 foot training facility um I'll speak in general terms just as far as the work they're intending on doing is is it's a little bit interesting so the Electrical Workers um need the train facility for for for Electrical Workers so what they'll be doing here is training folks who who climb poles um and and do those types of activities um safely so certainly something I'm not qualified to hand know but they they train them here for folks folks who are um so it would be an 8,500 ft uh building it have some class rooms and office space in it and there' actually be an interior space where they'd have some some utility poles um for for climbing and training it'd also propos to have a few kind of gravel areas with utility poles here in the back and here at the the top North which would have poles and again wires um for their training those poles wires electrical equipment are all I guess fux equipment there's no actual electricity or um electrical equipment that might have oil or some other um contaminant in it they're all they're all dry but but they're there let me just let me just stop you for a second sure for the purposes of the the hearing with regard to Wetland protection it it's not completely clear exactly where the buffer zones are so maybe if you could Point those out at this time so we know what we're we' be happy to so here's the site plan with the with the buffer on them so the the orange line here is the 25t um buffer from the wetlands for the the NN conservation policy um the green line here that that wraps around kind of the building and through that's the 100 foot Wetland buer Zone under the wetlands protection act okay um so so in addition to the the typical um lighting Landscaping storm U Landscaping lighting uh parking areas they are proposing a a a new storm water system that water system would primarily be collected in deep sump hooded catch basins and pre-treated by an an isolated row and within infiltrated within a large subsurface infiltration bed here at the the front of the property um soil testing's been done in that area to verify um groundwater and and soil types um so the majority of runoff from the parking lot and roof would go there um run off from this area at the rear where the proposing the the pole train area would be collected and pre-treated in a in a grass well and down to a bio retention here area at the at the rear of the property the reason being there's a bit of toppo coming down so this can't be gravity fed to the to the front Basin um I believe this the St water Design's been sent for for peer riew um which we're still awaiting so um happy obviously to address any questions or comments that come out of that intereview um once once we receive it um as as far as Wetland impacts um one item we want to note is we know that the commission has the policy for the 25 foot uh no disturb we expect that's a policy for a reason um and we do have some I guess limit of work um outside of that that 25 foot buffer um primarily the reason for that almost the primary reason for that is there's some existing paved areas that that exist in the the 25 foot buffer so here this section of paved driveway here is within the 25 foot buffer close to the wetlands here on the front here um this this structure in the back is and then some other gravel and davel driveway areas here so there's about 2,130 Square ft of of impervious area in the 25t buffer we proposed to remove entirely um in addition all the areas really within the 25 buffer except for a few limited areas are are kind of maintained FLW area at this at this stage um the project proposes no no impervious area in the 25 foot buffer um we looked at a few different iterations with the with the applicant and architect and obviously we wanted to make sure they had a building for print that met there their needs for for the training facility but also cautioned that the commission would take the the 25 foot um notice there are buffers seriously in in particular proposing impervious area with the meth buffer would would likely be be be frown or discouraged um so we have no impervious area within the 25 foot buffer again the limit of fork will extend outside of that at locations for the removal of existing structures um as far as permanent disturbances within the buffer no real natural vegetation would be Disturbed in that pler there'd be some limited grading as we around the permanent development and um and for the removal of existing paave structures and I think the only real permanent feature proposed in the in the stone water buffer would be this this grass sale along the um along the side of the gravel drive um and I think we have a pipe Outlet out the the rear um the project would propose to um plant areas outside the the development limit with a conservation Wildlife seed mix and I think a lot of the 25 foot buer would be allowed to just kind of naturally um revegetate over time it wouldn't necessarily be maintained as as long area as it is today in addition to to to Stow water controls you erosion controls are proposed and included in the in the site development plans which include perimeter barriers um temporary measures during construction for for settling basins and swales um the project does disturb one than more than one acre of um property so it would be applicable under the EPA Construction general permit and that's what would be prepared um prior to construction um that's said I'll pause there I hope hope I covered everything uh clearly but happy to to jump into more detail on specific items if if the commission would like uh just just for clarity that there's a structure now right adjacent the the s in the back um that is proposed to be removed or just uh demolished or removed yeah removed okay and and that's that's why the the purple line designates limit of work is that that's correct yeah so the purple line we would remove this structure there some fening and Lawn area through here um again the limit work here with the pavement um to be removed in the buffer zone so as far as proposed um work in the 25t buffer we would have the like I said the sale would would sneak into that 25 fo no disturb where there's an existing lawn area um and a little bit of minor grading outside of there but in general we we'd hope to keep the 25t buffer just allowed to kind of naturally [Music] revegetate and that that gravel um area in the back uh where the where you have the u-shaped uh section of poles I assume that's to use uh Lift Trucks as part of the training or it's not not clear uh correct yeah I think I I suspect they would have some um UT trucks coming back there um again for training purposes to have the the workers up or the trainees up in the up in the bucket truck and working on the pools how often do those trucks have little catastrophes of oil and grease and everything else hopefully very very regular they may be maintained relative to to like a a similar other vehicle um so so hopefully not not too often there wouldn't be any I guess electrical equipment or anything here that would be unordinary other than just vehicle travel so like I know often Transformers have oil in them and things like that nothing like that um so John I I you had a lot of comments but I I mean it's my sense at least some of them have been addressed is that your your sense yeah I mean there are some areas that I noticed on this plan that are shown the aerial shows it actually better because you can kind of see what's out there what's existing um but there are areas that you know are within the 25 foot I guess buffer that could be restored um to Natural vegetative cover I mean with the with the extent of the I guess the existing driveway that's not going to be part of the project it's actually outside of the proposed limit of work that they have but it's within very close proximity to the Wetland and also um within I guess kind of near the house that's existing there it's between that and the stream um and then also near closer to the street it looks like there's the driveway that comes in off of the road but doesn't look like they're going to be utilizing any of that pavement so I guess my question is is there any way that we can propose removing that pavement as part of you know you know allowing for them to work within the 25 as an acceptable use for the commission you know because they'd be removing a lot of impervious but replacing it with vegetative cover which is kind the intent of the 25 foot um you know buffer area that that the commission administrates I just think that maybe that would be something that would be a you know uh split on kind of allowing for some minor improvements going on in the 25 but also um removing some of the old impervious that's in 25 and restoring it back to a more naturalized setting to kind of Meet the 25 foot established criteria so so Matt I think you you did mention that that was the intent is that correct that's correct yeah and I'm looking at I see with John John speaking of I think we maybe just um have the the limit of work MISD drawn on this this exhibit but I think the intention would be to to remove all of this this pavement that's within the 25t buffer and allow it to naturally be revegetate so so we are amenable to that yeah and you guys could definitely do that closer to the street I mean I think going heading back because it looks like you're grading there like right there yeah is that looks like it kind of goes off in that area I mean if you're not if you're not going to use it use that as a you know an access point I mean it's just GNA it's going to look very weird um but if you could revegetate the you know restore that area I think that would definitely offset a lot of the the potential work that's happening in the 25 but that's just my opinion yeah and I think we're we're amable to that we were hoping um that the note that John just made would be be the case we wanted to be be sensitive to it so where we have this existing iny area we certainly open into removing and restoring that and just allowing it to naturally revegetate yeah I mean you you outlined some of it but I think what John's referring to is is hidden under the trees um oh through here well it closer to the stream I think it hugs the stream underneath those trees um the drive the existing driveway okay yeah yeah we can we can review but yes we would be amenable to to removing that do we have a grading detail on this and can you pull it up like a grading plan yeah I'll pull up the uh the black and white one because it might be a little clearer than the color one yep so just that the general greeting um the the site does come off quite a bit from the road so the roads um 116 117 and you get down to 110 so six or seven people look great at the rear here so this area most along kind of the the side of the building would be a three to four foot Bill condition and then we would come back down to grade as we work the way back down to the rear so in our in our 25 foot areas what are what is your grading plan so within I'll pull up in this this color color exhibit so if you can um if you can can imagine it so the these darker kind of lines with the Contour labels are proposed Contours and the orange line is the the 25t um buffer so The Greening plane within um as some operating here at this turnaround within the existing what uh three to 3 to one as shown now um we could we could taper that out we just wanted to cut it as short as we could from the from the Wetland line my question to John is John we feel that's a little steep for those areas it depends on what they're going to use for vegetative cover and what kind of top soil they're going to use I mean I guess that's another question is you know during construction and post construction you know it's going to take some time for that area to get stabilized um you know there are options where they could put J netting down if they needed to to keep it more uh solid during kind of I guess the establishment of growth on those on those surfaces but um you know otherwise I mean other option is they could put a revetment wall up if they want to uh but they're already doing that for a good portion of the extent that's going where the building is all the way to into Mansfield so I don't know I mean I guess I leave it up to the commission to think if that's you know needed for for that area Outback with the gravel a lot I mean it seems seems a little steep I think we need some type of plan in this area well I don't know it's 3 to one should have no problem holding if it were two to one then it would really you know need more attention but uh I I don't know I I mean my sense is 3:1 can be stabilized without any problem somebody else had a question I was just going to could we revisit the uh uh north of what we're looking at right now can we just see above that uh and I guess there's you is there any CH yeah this is is there any chance of of of moving the proposed structure to the north where it's a little farther from the Wetland or is that not possible that's not that's not going to be possible Dan they they're maxed out with with the other infrastructure and improvements that they have um you know the the thing that we've always talked about with conservation is you know we'd rather have the buildings closer to the wetlands than the parking lots because the water is going to shed um it can be better controlled off the building than it is off the parking lots um and we did that for a couple projects so far um that we've permitted through the commission and the peer riewer that we had agreed on that so um I understand you know your thoughts with the building you know being closer to the street but we also need to take in account of zoning and other other local um jurisdictional um regulatory requirements um there's a question about uh what type of sedimentation controls you're going to be using and where sure yeah um so we don't we don't use straw bales by the way we use either silt socks or straw Waddles um so just to make a note on the plan um I'm I'm okay with with this kind of development um with 8 in compost socks um if you can spec that out that'd be great otherwise I would suggest using uh some silt fents and some 6in compost socks uh just just as as a temporary measure there um but that's just my thought on on these we don't use straw Waddles I mean sorry straw bales straw bales y yeah understood um as proposed I believe we have a we have the the straw bales and Sil Pence but obviously we're amenable to um the compost Sil stock respect that a lot or or the straw Waddles I think I find the the silop is a little a little heavier Duty so I might might think that's preferred but I think we're open to either now as far as delineating the limited work during construction are you going to do that with orange construction fence or to make sure that because you got a lot of fill there yeah sure I mean I think we'd be we'd be open to that if that was a request of the commission the in general the entire um limit of work is going to have the the still fence in in silck around the perimeter so we might expect that D needs the D to work but if Orange construction fening always a little bit more more visible to the eye so we we'd be open to that if that's something the commission um feel strongly about well it's not actually something we normally request but this is a very tight site and you're you're doing a lot of stuff right up against the 25 uh you know they requested no no disturb zone so you know I I can see machine operators just rolling over a small um Sil sock or something like like like that but they might hesitate to back over a an orange construction fence yeah yeah yeah sure that's a good point and I I hopefully they won't U Back over still off I think it's our job to make sure they understand that there's an order of conditions and um they have to be very careful close to that attention to that or we'll be back in here for for bad reasons and we don't want to do that so well I certainly want to make sure the construction team's um knowledgeable and what the the restrictions are well you wouldn't be back here you would have to face me and you don't want to do that I'm just letting you know the pass yet you agreed you wouldn't like when he's angry I believe it um any questions I'm just kidding no no Dan it's true you don't want you don't want me when I'm angry it's fine we'll leave it at that he turns into the uh the incredible do I turn into the Incredible Hulk is that what you're gonna say okay thank you well I I have one more I I would like to see a stabilization program for those areas um and anywhere where anything else is being built are we working above the toe of the the area or below we our our grading and work would be above existing grade so be working I guess above it so there'll be no machine or no operator below the toe of any of these areas um not outside of the limit of work no so my suggestion is to in areas where you're going to remove or do any sort of light grading for restoration purposes or any grading surface scraping the surface whatnot is to put compost in siment controls closer to the resource area um so like in the area where you know I recommended that you guys remove additional pavement put the sement controls clusters of the resource area yeah yeah I think we'd be open to that um the as I noted the the area a lot of it within the 25 foot is maintained lawn right now so that would give us more room to to maybe lessen the slopes or to to revegetate those areas um we were a little hesitant to show the limit of work uh two outside the 25t offer unless we had to but um where it makes sense and we can we can naturally Revit those those areas so that they're not a lawn seed anymore that makes sense well we just want to make sure that for instance whatever we approve uh coincides with the construction plans um that are going to be you know part of this um you know next phase uh pending any sort of issuance of the order condition so that's that's that would be the next phase too so prior to any sort of you know preconstruction meeting or any construction going on on the site we would need those construction plans and they it's a lot easier if they jive with the uh permitting plans if we can do that how soon do you expect the construction would begin on this um I I believe they own the own the property so I to be honest I'm not 100% sure where the the entitlement period is going to come up to the winter months it might not make sense to to get too far into it at that point but I'd expect spring of next year at the latest they'd want to get get rolling out here well I mean that's that's the question about stabilizing during the winter as to whether you're you're going to try to do that and uh I mean you're going to be pouring a lot of concrete for at least for foundation so that can be a challenge um so there is peer review uh yet to happen as I understand it yeah we reached out to the peer riewer today we have not heard back from them I'm going to call him tomorrow just to follow up and make sure that he's been receiving my emails um but our next meeting is on the I guess the 28th and we cannot close this meeting or make a decision on it anyway because I don't think we have a d number right Megan I don't believe we do no okay uh you're talking about file number uh because we have 250- 11166 on the we do I apologize yes okay but but we we still have to uh get feedback from the a peer reviewer right yeah so so it's a matter of uh do you do you prefer continuation to the next meeting which is the 28th or the meeting after is the 11th of November oh wait no even that that's Veterans Day I believe is that right so that's correct so that listed meeting is going to be absent so it's uh now what day is um Thanksgiving is that the 24th or is it this year well anyway we can keep it simple by just continuing until the 28th of of this month thank giving is the 28th of November I think it I think it would be easiest just to continue to the 28th and we'll hopefully get a turn around on those peerreview um comments and I can send them over to bowler and bowler can respond back to them and hopefully in that time frame uh from now until the 28th we'll have kind of a understanding of what uh is is outstanding or is complete so so unless there have further questions we can consider a motion to continue and Matt I'm assuming that that's acceptable to continue to October 28 y yeah that would be great appreciate if whatever reason um the peer review wasn't ready by then you know we'd be happy to request a continuance all right I guess any questions from the general public any any any questions from the general public before we move and and you can either go to the reactions button reactions yes reaction button and raise your hand or you can just take your phone on your mic off mute but I don't seem to see any or hear any questions so I think we can now consider that motion to to continue this hearing for file number 250- 1166 until October 28th and I think Dan you made that motion is that right yes please and now a second uh F continue file 1166 yep second and so we have a motion by Dan seconded by Paxton and Dan Mark and Paxton How do you vote all I I and Joe I and I'll throw in an I so the motion carries so Matt we'll see you or someone else on the 28th thank you Matt thank you guys have good you're back [Music] um and then we have a determination 11:42 [Music] um I I mean this is something that has been before us before I believe is that right yeah so this is this is just this is an interesting one and I I've seen this happen a little bit before um what they're trying to do and what the applicant is trying to do is to get a better handle and understanding on this the jurisdictional status of the stream in question that was not I guess I guess confirmed with the previous anrad and oad um so in light of that um because we were in a drought so we couldn't make that determination anyway when they we did the anrat so what I told them was at the time was that if they came back with a uh RDA to come back when there when we weren't in a drought we would be amenable to this RDA which is that what they're submitting today so Chris I'll let you take it away with kind of the your analysis and your evaluation of the stream out there sure thing well good evening folks my name is Chris freri I'm a wetland scientist with Gard Consulting uh and I will go ahead and share my screen right right here if that's all right all right can we looks good um all right so our site here is lot 1A on South Washington Street um South Washington Street being up here at the north of the property obviously I believe this is Lopez drive across the street if that gives any sort of orientation to you folks but uh John's correct yeah we do have a mapped perennial stream uh in the southern portion of the site here and due to the fact that again as John said we were in a drought when this anrad was uh originally before you yeah let let me let me just interrupt just for for orientation for members of commission because I'm not going to recognize that map this was originally before us as a proposal for a parking lot for Amazon vehicles uh and then subsequently uh and I guess that got mixed by the planning board uh and subsequently a proposal came back for a garage and just a few parking spaces so just to refresh members of the commission you probably recall it there so sorry for the interruption but uh no worries good context thank you um so this is uh our site aerial here uh there's now a parking area up in the northeastern portion uh pursuant to that prior order of conditions that you folks issued uh and ultimately I think this is a pretty straightforward request um we do these fairly often and what you'll see along here is that stream we marked a couple of points for photos and what we are doing here is documenting that the stream is intermittent um regulations read essentially that uh at least you know you can document a stream as not flowing over four days in any 12-month period during non-drought conditions which was the essentially the holdup the last time around so we've done exactly that we've stream as not um so you'll see here photo point1 this is just a kind of a selection of a couple of the photos that we included in the more report that youf call received um and essentially what is is documentation that this is not a perennial stream that this is in fact an intermittent stream because it is not flowing uh over four days and you know we've seen the site a handful of other occasions it's been more than just four days but that's what our documentation consists of um John and I met out there and took a look at it and I think we were on the same page on that for the most part and so this this is the the nature of the the request in front of you folks tonight I'm happy to answer any questions you might have about it uh well actually John you can elucidate it obviously If This Were A flowing stream it would fall under the River Act is that uh but U being intermittent it does not is that a fair statement that's correct so um this is where it becomes um well I guess this is where it is where we currently stand is that there are two separate things happening I guess you know for this property is that the applicants requesting to make a determination on whether this stream is perennial or intermittent and you know from what I can tell and what I've seen is that it doesn't seem to meet perennial status it didn't meet seem to meet perennial status when I first met uh the applicant out here um a couple oh there two years ago to take a look at it but you know obviously you know with a drought or without a drought it doesn't seem to have the perennial indicators and bankful indicators that would constitute a you know Riverfront area or a mean annual high water line for a perennial Stream So for this site I would say that you know it's okay for the uh commission to vote in favor of basically this stream um meeting the intermittent status um the next thing I guess would be for I guess the applicant to once this RDA goes through is to you know have a powow with him and his consultant G uh G Consulting and discuss the next steps for the current status of the project site that is currently in development because that section of the project site would need to come back to the commission either through an amendment or a new filing depending on kind of what they're going to be proposing so that's not on the do for this evening to discuss that but I'm just putting it out there for the record so that's kind of where I'm at with this so I'm comfortable um with this stream um being classified as intermittent based on my expertise and field observations out there and seeing it uh firsthand but it was my recollection that the development activity proposed in our last hearing doesn't come out to this extent it does not okay so that's why I'm getting at to it is that if the applicant would like to amend their permit and request to I guess move their limit of work or reestablish any sort of work they're either going to a try to see if they can get an amendment but my understanding is that any change to limit a work would require a new filing so that's kind of what the state requires Ires is that if you're going to change the limit of work to any sort of project you have to go through the process of refiling um that's one of their biggest things because changing the limit of work expanding it increasing it is considered a major change so any sort of major change would require a new filing but I thought the prior requested project went to the full extent possible because they went up to the allowed Wetland boundary plus you know within the buffer so they were from what I recall and what I know for this project is that they were conservatively taking off of where the extent of the stream was in the event that it was Riverfront area so they were being conservative in their approach to try to stay away from the riverfront entirely with the original design because they couldn't they couldn't make that designation or determination back when there was a drought to basically State whether the stream had perennial or intermittent status so what they did was they decided to go through with a project up to the 200 but not cross over into it so that was the that was the intent of their project now is that if this stream is not perennial then they basically can go and file a new application if they want to to present or propose new work gets closer to the stream because it doesn't meet that designation and you know that from what I can tell is that this stream does not meet perennial status I'm confident with that it's just now the next steps for the applicant are to go through the right steps to kind of I guess if they're looking to propose more work or they're looking to propose a new use or they're going to have a project change I mean that's all going to come in they have to basically close out the previous project and reopen a new one or roll it into a new one as to kind of what they're going to do so you know they're going to have an engineer they're going to have to have a wetland scientist there's going to be a little bit more work that they have to do to propose new work out here so you know that's that's kind of what's on their plate I leave it up to Chris and the the owner of the property to just make those decisions and come back to the Conservation Commission with a plan of action of what they want to do all right I guess I misunderstood I thought the boundaries previously were establish by known Wetland boundary and the wetlands were confirmed under uh the the oad but the stream status in the riverfront area was not and they were conservative they were conservatively just saying that it was perennial as part of their proposed project because they couldn't make that determination because when they came in it was in a drought and that's one of the parameters is that if it's in a drought you can't you can't discredit whether a stream is is brenal or not all right so I guess we'll hold our breath and wait to see what comes through the door yeah so for this I would say that um you know the commission could ratify and and issue a negative determination stating that the resource area as it currently stands uh does not meet or the stream the stream itself was proven to meet the standards that Chris put up on this on the screen can I just ask a question relating to that the regulations also say not withstanding that part u 2 A1 a through C uh letter A refers to essentially if the stream was demonstrated to be um pennial on the latest USGS survey that it would be considered perennial what what does the latest survey say yeah that that is this map here that's uh that's this darker Blue Line fortunately I don't have an intermittent to compare to but this is shown as a perennial stream okay so if I'm reading the regulations correctly though that means that we would consider perennial not withstanding that um generally refers to you know that may be true but you can document it as such as we've done here so there there's there's there's always been a classification as to what is the proper way to do it because they have here's where it becomes kind of difficult to kind of make these determinations is that it contradicts itself because if that was the case why is it asking about claiming these these uh these visual observations I guess that's my question and that's why I would say if that was the case is that if if the state wanted us basically to state that you know all streams with a solid Blue Line are consider on a USGS map are perennial why doesn't it just state that why does it give us this opportunity to uh for an applicant or a or a consultant to do these observations and present this to the commission for clarification I guess that's my question and that's been always a discussion item that I have you know looked at and I said well you know this is there's a reason why this is here and the the purpose of why it's here is to say that it's another option for the commission to take in a consideration when it comes to um you know evaluating the actual correct status of a stream now if if this stream was flowing and it had a very defined Channel I would say okay we we need to do it you know again and take a look at this at you know at another time but the fact that for instance the applicant has taken the Liberties to follow this procedure to credit you know their observations and present them in front of us you know I I feel that for instance this stream is intermittent because I've seen it three times you know over the last three years so and that was once in a drought and twice not in a drought and I have not seen it flowing like a normal perennial Stream So if the commission wants to you know make a determination that it is perennial I leave that up to them but you know I think that I'm comfortable with the the the notwithstanding you know this language as it's said here that it would be be okay for the commission to accept that the stream is not being a perennial stream thanks I guess you can understand my confusion I'm sure no and that's the issue too is that the the wetlands protection act has always been contradictory of itself in in its entirety and you know my my only question that I always ask whenever I look at this is that okay if well if that was the case why do they have another item in here that completely you know negates that first item that they're saying and I guess my question is why is that here why why is this language in here and it's in here for a reason it's it's open up to um you know to to kind of look at it even further and if we looked at it even further and says well if it doesn't meet this then maybe it was Mis misidentified or or not mapped correctly um you know back in the the 70s or 60s when they put these Maps together um you know I I guess that's the question yeah it would make sense that a local observation and more timely observation uh of you and the applicant uh should Trump any other uh determination made by the the regulations of course I'm just sort of trying to mle over how this all works or why the same questions you're saying why would this be written this way right well um I it's the same thing these are the regulations and you it started with the legislation um and you can't necessarily stuff an environment into a bunch of text and has have it come out exactly the same as the environment so the field observations as far as I'm concerned is the is the source of our information for a decision and we all feel comfortable I mean I'm being a little general here but John you you certainly feel comfortable that this based on field observation is an intermittent stream corre yeah this this section of the stream that is on this property um you which is what we're confirming this section is from what I see out there I would not classify it as being perennial okay so I'm comfortable with that it may it may start being for any offsite but I'm not you know that's not part of this uh you know request okay um so uh any questions from anybody in the uh meeting uh because it sounds like we have enough information to close and make a determination of whether this is a uh um well following this is neither a positive or negative or so this is this tell me which category this is for decision I'd have to look at it and actually hold on give me one second because it's not necessarily a neg3 no it's not we don't do these much often so agreed well while John is looking that up I I think we can consider a motion to close um determination number 1142 I can make that motion all right Paxton makes a motion to close and we're looking for a second second uh second by Mark uh roll call starting with Dan Mark and Paxton I I I uh and Joe I and I'll throw in an eye so uh so John uh it's gonna be it's going to be five sorry it's a negative five all right and uh you have the text there if you could just read it out for us yeah it's um the area described in this request is subject to the jurisdiction under the ACT since the well hold on one sec I take that back it's not five [Music] um Chris do you want to tell us which number it is yeah Chris you want to tell me what number it is frequently we see commissions do it as a neg -3 um just stating that there is a you know there's a portion of this site that would otherwise be Riverfront area that is not subject to the riverfront area jurisdiction um I'm not sure if every commission does it the same way but for all intents and purposes that's what we uh what we usually [Music] see I I would probably put it as five and say no work is included um and then um basically state that this this um this permit issued this issued permit um clarifies or confirms that the uh on-site stream is intermittent something along those lines um all right so we'll we'll do a negative five and provisionally if in in closer examination it's found that it needs to be a different negative category we can revisit it next meeting and correct it I'm assuming you're not going to have a a a crush of activity that is going to interrupt your your your stream of work there Chris so so be all right I think we can entertain a a motion that uh this will be a negative determination indicating that filing of a notice of int is not required in Category 5 so [Music] moved second a motion by Mark seconded by Paxton and Joe Paxton and Mark how do you vote i i i and Dan I and I'll throw in an eyes the motion carries um there once was a time when we used to sign these things but not now so not yet not yet we all find out till March 2025 okay I thank you folks have a good night you Chris um there are no certificates of compliance on our U agenda but we do have uh both an order of condition and an O uh first um order of condition is for first item is is uh file number 25166 uh no that's that's wrong uh file number 250 1162 uh zero Hill Street referring to the 30,000 squ foot building and uh lay down area um so just to kind of give everybody a heads up the only things that have been modified um were the red texts that I put on the Google Drive so just so that way we're aware if you're looking at it um those items were um I guess ironed out between the um bowler engineering and myself so those items were um I guess modified and I'm comfortable with them and it's it would seem that you know Andy plat from bowler is comfortable with it as as as it is and they have provided us updated plans so we have those and we're going to put those on as record um I don't think we put them on the Google drive because we got them today so I can if anybody's curious I can you know show you guys if you need them uh so uh the findings section is generally unique to the project so that's straightforward the other modified one that came up is is item 11 I guess on the in the construction requirements and um then after that I think it was in the site stabilization section uh it 24 uh A and B are are unique and then 31 uh the November deadline is in there as modified I think that's all yeah they were just they were minor but you know we did we did have a conversation questions [Music] comments if not we can consider a motion to approve the orders and conditions for file number 250- 11162 as submitted I can make that motion second so we have a motion made by P Paxton seconded by Mark to uh approve the orders of condition for file number 250- 11162 as submitted so Dan Mark and Paxton How do you vote I I and Joel I and I'll thr in an i motion carries and um we have a short uh order of resource area delineations for file number 250- 11165 a concern uh 225 southwester Street any comments or questions I'm assuming the uh the site plan is referenced in the uh well you do have a so the site plan is always referenced on the form it's a requirement um so that will have the date and the information on there yeah all right so not too complicated anybody want to make a motion [Music] I'll make a motion sure to uh um approve the oad as admitted approve the oad as as amended do we have a second second uh motion by Dan seconded by uh Mark uh Mark Paxton and Joe how do you vote hi hi I and Dan I and I will throw in an eye on motion curies uh and that ends my agenda any comments I have nothing I I really don't I helped the um LPS today uh clean up some Trails uh in the rain that was fun uh we also went over to Johnson acres and cut up a bunch of logs probably I want to say 14 to 15 filed logs that are across the trail so um if anybody want wants to you know work with me I'm going to probably be putting together a plan for the next time that we have a collaboration of volunteers to kind of look and assess and evaluate some TR Trail enhancements for that property um I might actually need to come back in front of us and talk about some some boardwalks and stuff because I think there's a couple Wetlands on the property that might need a little bit of uh Crossing but we'll see uh we need I'm going to try to stay away from the wetlands to be honest with you but um we'll see we'll see what we can do with the uh the trail improvements and Trail enhancements that are out there and uh yeah that's the next one that's on the agenda for kind of you know next property to to take a look at so um but uh I guess other than that I don't have much um I was just going to say if you want to send out an email when you're planning to go out and do some more work out there I can't promise I can make it but if I can I'll try my best okay all rights I'm mostly done with my yard work for the year so I'm I'm itching to do more okay well I I'll try to coordinate something um typically what I we had the Anum folks help us uh today and they rain or shine they they'll be out there doing work and they're they're go-getters let me tell you they really helped us sell big time so they're probably about a you know 15 20 of them um just you know Warm Bodies helping us up cleaning the trails so you you required a chainsaw for this or or not uh so the the chainsaw was under my supervision and uh I was watching them chainsaw and I made sure that they understood all the chainsaw rules and regulations that I administer so well what I was going to say is I I can I'm I'm willing to haul around my small saw which is you know like a baby toy thing uh and I'll be glad to volunteer uh it's probably going to be next year because right now I'm in in the thick of of stuff no no worries yeah we the items that are usually obviously you know this time of year is very busy for all of us you know within New Town Hall moving everything I didn't really have much time but they they asked if I could attend and show up I said I can show up but I really can't contribute much unfortunately I mean I can supervise um but I can't really do much because I've got a lot of things that I still need to get a good handle on before we get going and moving but um besides that you know I will be probably sending out messages to the open space committee and also the Conservation Commission and LPS and just engage trying to engage more as we move forward and progress uh because there there's a lot of improvements and enhancements that could be done to a lot of these properties and it's not just Trails I mean it's you know just making sure that the existing picnic tables out there aren't in you know piss poor condition or you know they they're usable you know and they're not just flat on the ground so um you know that's kind of one of the things that I need to do better and just take better inventory on and and really adiz but if anybody wants to help um you know LPS has already you know reached out to me and said that you know they'll be they'd be more than happy to you know step in and and be some of the property stewards I have three or four of the members actually property stewards for a couple of our properties now so if anybody else wants to you know do the same thing just let me know um because moving forward I'd like to really give back to the community and and try to do what we can do uh because we're not just the permanent crew here in Norton we're also the O you know Conservation Commission and we're in charge of managing over 200 plus property so I want to want to get back to that um and I could use everyone's help and efforts so yeah I I I certainly be glad to to be part of a crew uh including bringing a chainsaw but um I need I need some lead time to yeah no definitely and my my my policy is usually I need at least two months notice on anything um I can't just be told you know one week from when you're going to do something that to to show up so I made a little exception there but it's okay um but moving forward I'd like to kind of get a little bit of a lead time two months so I can try to engage others and see if they're able to kind of assist and you know spend spend a couple hours here and there going out and you know helping us clean up some trails and clean up some property so um but besides that I don't have much on my agenda hopefully uh that hurricane doesn't do much damage for us uh Milton so my parents are actually heading down at Tampa so we'll see we'll see to see what the damage is so your parents have property there yeah my parents have property in Tampa so um yeah they're heading down there just to see kind of what the damages are going to be uh they should be there after the storm is over but we'll see well I tell you I I have a friend who also has friends I mean he used to live in Sarasota and uh Sarasota was really badly damaged by uh Helen yeah now it's dead center um I mean Tampa's a little north of there so but you know these storms are are uh uh building up faster than it's been recorded ever and that the you know the surface temperature of the gulf is 88 to 90 degre which has never been never been that hot and and this is this is unprecedented what's happening it definitely is well I hope everything works out for your parents I hope so too I really do hopefully there's not much damage I guess last storm they had they had over 18 in in the in the garage so we'll see we'll see how much water they have in their garage this time got it all right uh our next meeting is the 28th um so I will have all these permits issued before then uh so we can make the deadline and I will see you guys then and oh yeah town meeting is the 21st if anybody wants to show up and um you know just be there just quick question uh not Conservation Commission the open space committee when any ideas of when we might be meeting so Megan's going to send out another email um probably tomorrow or Wednesday uh just engaging everybody see when they're available um just to kind of get a sense um I actually need to talk to you too by the way about some other stuff so I will uh I'll reach out to you tomorrow or if you want to call the office call the office yeah absolutely I I've just been busy and I apologize not following up on no no it's fine it's fine I just need to get get touch Bas like Julian in the spring I'll bring out a little saw and hopefully help with uh you know some trail work or something like that I have an ax yeah but I think a chainsaw is safer than an axe these days yeah I'd say I'd say you're you're you're right Julian oh yeah and uh the LPS members did uh reach out to me and they're very um very curious about all the Chestnut trees that are over at e freed so they they said they were very um they wanted to get in touch with Dominic actually so I was going to see if Dominic would be okay with uh um you know potentially getting touch with a bunch of LPS members because they're looking to maybe put some on their property too is that do you think that's something okay he would love it tomorrow he said he's u g to be um putting some in um I don't know I think it was it was edoro they have a spot where they want him to put and then uh he's going to replace a couple at Edith Reed on Thursday at 10: a.m. will'll be joining him at that time I don't know if any of the LPS members want I can can work that out yeah I can definitely let them know that you guys are going to be there um but I will definitely give uh the members that are interested in getting contact with him I'll give them his email and his contact information so they can so but it's already set for 10:00 a.m. on Thursday okay place a couple of those that died well I will let them let them know that if they're available and they want to meet him in person and have a discussion uh you know then uh they can show up then sounds good all right thank you guys all right good take care