all right so at 7:06 we're going to call the school committee meeting to order all members are present 706 calling the finance committee meeting to order all members are present with the exception of Tracy Mahan and Kevin call Select board meeting to order um all five members of the select board are present [Music] and we will start with a pledge of [Music] allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the stands one nation God indivisible andice for all okay good evening everyone can everybody hear me okay is this better um okay so we are going to um uh start the meeting um and we're going to um start off with some ground rules which um some of you I'm sure were present for the last um and we're going to uh we're going to do the same here because we do have a large crowd here um we do it's also kind of hard to hear in here so if um folks would um uh come up to the microphone when they want to speak um that would be that would be advisable otherwise we probably be able to hear um then the rest of the crowd here won't be able to hear you either um so um we we will have um uh we have agenda items that we will follow for the course of the meeting um and comments will need to be restricted to those agenda items I'm sure everything that's on our agenda is what's on everybody's mind here tonight um and so um uh with a large crowd like this um it's best to uh just sort of lay out how this is going to work um first of all if you wish to address the boards um you must do so only after being recognized by the chair the chair for this meeting tonight is myself we do have the other chairs and the other boards here however just for the sake of keeping things moving keeping things organized um I will be chairing the the meeting this evening so in order to speak you must be recognized by the chair um uh when you get up to speak please identify Yourself by name and address um each person will be given three minutes to speak um Alec has graciously volunteered to be our timekeeper this evening um so don't make Alec mad um and uh he will uh he'll let you know when we get to 3 minutes he'll let you know um that the 3 minutes are up and if you could just wrap it comments up at that point that would be uh that would be great um again we're not trying to restrict anybody here but we're just trying to keep things moving there a lot of people here want everybody give everybody a chance to speak if they want to speak um but we want to do try to keep it organized um and efficient um if you have already spoken and wish to speak again I might recognize or I may recognize someone before you speak um just because speak again because they haven't had the opportunity to speak at all um again please confine your comments through the items on the agenda um everyone in this meeting all speakers in this meeting and all board members will be treated with um courtesy by everybody else in the room all remarks will be directed towards the chair and I I will allow questions to be asked of individuals I will not allow cross-examination type discussions maybe you can probably tell these are very similar to town meeting instructions we just don't want to have um folks going back and forth at each other um it does not lend itself to um holding an effective and efficient meeting um and um um um if there are people who are waiting to speak on issue um the chair will not accept a motion from a board member um until everyone has had a chance to be heard so we will allow discussion to continue until everybody has had a chance to speak um and then if somebody wants on one of the boards wants to make a motion then we will accept the motion prior to that we won't cut anybody off and we give everybody a chance to be heard um lastly if you have a g I going to have to use it um but uh if uh do hear the gabble please um get the attention your attention to the chair time um okay so um the first item on the agenda for tonight's meeting um is a review of the 1% budget um from the superintending public schools so I'm going to turn it over to Dr Jen thank you Kevin good evening everyone um thank you all so much for coming out tonight it's wonderful to see so many people in the audience um so for Norton Public Schools a 1% budget would be um a cut a reduction of 3,457 324 um of our level Services service needs um that would be a cut of 29.4 Staff members or a total of $2,359 1847 in Staffing reductions it's really important for everyone in the community to understand that the school budget that was presented this year is level service which means that it is asking just to keep exactly what we have in our schools and classrooms right now there are no new added positions um in this request at all um so the school committee and my team we have spent a lot of time uh discussing um how to really meet to this 1% threshold um because it is such a huge huge reduction for us over what we are currently operating with the 29.4 staff members um go across teachers par professionals administrators and other bargaining units as well um there are positions in here that are truly needed um to effectively run our schools day to-day there are positions that are um essential to make sure that all of our students are getting what they need academically um as well as social emotionally as well um I'm more than happy to answer any specific questions from either the boards or from the audience um regarding the [Music] one okay thanks Dr O'Neal if anybody has any questions for Dr O'Neal you can come up to the microphone um um or if anybody on the board has any questions for Dr okay Mr chair yeah go ahead um Dr uh I know we discussed this on the finance committee call but for the benefit of everyone that may not have watched that um of the 29.4 positions exactly how many are you projecting will be student facing and what will be the impacts to class sizes honestly um almost every single position is student facing when you think about the role um that these professionals have in our in our classrooms in our schools every single day um there are positions where um staff members are providing enrichment um through various specials to our students um there are positions that are Prov writing academic support to our our students as well um and also working day-to-day with with staff to improve their instructional practice so um there every single position here is is is student facing in some way shape or form um when you look at class sizes um we have made every effort to keep these Cuts away from the Elementary classrooms um because we know that class size Matters especially at the early foundational grades when you're teaching children how to read and to write so we have made every every effort possible to keep those away from those younger grades um with that said um there are more Middle School and High School teaching positions that are in this budget um which will really vary class sizes um depending on the high school is extremely hard to tell because what will happen is Will these will be reductions in electives um and or you know larger class sizes in core content so um we may be going from you know 23 24 and we may see 30s in in some High School classes um depending on the way the schedule works out it's very hard to predict ahead of time um at the middle school we actually have a very small we have a smaller cohort of rising sixth graders um so this um budget also includes some schedule changes um and some reformatting of the sixth grade to make it work um the chair recognizes Steve hornsman from the select board thank you Dr for your answer I I just wanted to clarify um I think the question was a little vague how many teaching positions versus how many Adent positions um and can you elaborate on the difference I think the last meeting there was 40 40 plus and now it got down to to 29 the 40 plus was an average so when you take take a look at um the number that we had to get to um typically we project with a with a new staff member around a certain um whether it's Master step X or Masters three or four um so that was our best guess at an average at that time um what we were able to do to really look at what these positions are going to be is that we've looked at um retirements that have come up um and so someone who's retiring is that they're um you know typically making a lot more than a new a new teacher um so when you have a salary that is you know $35 to $40,000 more than the average that we were looking at were're able to not lay off as many as many staff members so um that was our best estimate based on averages of that time um and I'm just looking super quickly here for you I'd say there are about 19 um like real teaching positions that are here um and and my last question is of those 19 positions are any of those the temporary ones that were um PID for with the arsa funds yes okay thank you uh any questions from anyone else on the board or in the audience yeah Zach Dr uh the school funding is complicated as us on this board know are your state and federal funds or whatever you're getting various formats are those locked in at this point or are those subject to change over the summer and and what is your estimation on how close those FES are from what you have today all of the federal grants that we received we do not get um numbers on those until the third week in July typically um so we always have to make a projection based on our best estimate of what those numbers may be I know uh Mrs Hatfield always projects we're going to lose a little bit just to be on the safe side um recently I believe it was either yesterday the day before the house Ways and Means Committee um met and they put together their recommended budget for the upcoming school year um very exciting news they have recommended that instead of a minimum amount of $30 per student they are recommending $104 per student so if that actually comes to fruition that is another $74 per student that we would receive from the state um as those of us who are at least somewh not familiar with the budget process at the state level um that still has to go through um several you know more Cycles in order for it to get to get the governor's desk and for it to be signed um typically we don't really know exactly what that is going to be until well after town meeting and last year I believe it was the first week in July thank you thank you uh Dr O'Neal so what happens if come September our school choice money has decreased because less school choice kids are coming here to our schools and possibly more norn kids may be going out of district and you may find out I remember when we were doing our joint meetings in the fall each time we met that out of District tuition costs were going up so what happens at that point if you don't have the funds to kind of cover that the school choice funds that are in this budget for the 25 year are funds that we have received that we're receiving for this year so we get payments all the way throughout the course of the year and then we get a larger payment at the end of June based on um some of our special education costs uh and other things that they tweak it up until the very very last day um so if school choice um numbers were to decline next year because of whatever financial decisions are made that will ultimately impact the FY 26 budget um in terms of special education out of District costs uh we always have a placeholder for at least one um private placement and one collaborative placement for students um as you mentioned Paula um we went through those in about 3 weeks last year um so it's something that we're constantly looking at um we do have the benefit of circuit breaker which is our reimbursement from the state for some of those special education costs um and that's something that uh we are always advocating that they increase right now it's a 75% reimbursement rate um and there is a lot of conversation within my organization of mass superintendant and mass School committees to increase that reimbursement to 80% they would really like to see it fully funded at some point but it never has been so okay does anybody El have any questions or comments um I have a question um so we're talking about staff reductions or Administration whether it's administrative or teachers but what does that mean for um activities Transportation what does a 1% budget mean for um the impact on those types of things as well thank you um so the um 1% budget also has significant reductions in terms of um General supplies technology software um we are you know moving a few salaries around into revolving towns like for example our facilities it would be an increase in High School athletic fees it would also be an increase in club fees as well as transportation fees for families and how about extracurricular activities would any of those be um cut or not able to be funded so in terms of things that occur after school like band or chorus or drama or any of those things um so there are things that currently take place during the school day such as band or chorus um what we have discussed would be moving some of those enrichment activities to after school similar to the way that we do Sports um so we it would be something that would be no longer offered during the day potentially and then offered after school I I think I want to just also mention that um I've made a commitment to my staff to share layoff notices on Friday April 26th um and I think it's really important that they get information from from me or from their principal about what exactly those cuts are so I thank you all for understanding that I made not be super specific about some things okay thank you does anybody else have any comments or questions Paul just a follow just to follow up Kevin's question what would be the increase for athletic fees club fees and transportation fees um those are all um still items that would need to be voted on by the school committee um but well ultimately what we are proposing is a um increase to $300 for sports at the high school um all Middle School sports would would go up by $50 each sport um and then it would also be a $50 increase to transportation again not not final because those are all things that would need to be decided by the committee okay y I'll speak loudly just the um drel if the state does come through with the additional $74 per student how much does that help mitigate some of the layoffs great question um so ultimately we would still need all of the layoffs to take place and it would be a benefit of being able to recall staff um we are required to make all of our layoffs um legally by June 15th um but what we would do is based on whatever that calculation is I know that we' be working very closely with Mr units and his Department to make sure uh that funding is able to come right to the schools um it would likely require a vote at town meeting in the fall um because it wasn't initially part of our um budget that will be approved um and we will be looking at positions that would we be able to bring back um it's typically it's more challenging to bring back a classroom teacher in the middle of October um so we would be looking at um the most effective and and beneficial ways to um restore services to our schools Cody uh Dr on it's so good regarding the transportation it was discussed previously that you would be going to match General law um requirements and potentially eliminating transportation from seventh grade and up and within the 2 mile radius of schools is that still on the table there have been a lot of discussions over these last few months about what makes the most Financial sense um in order for us to get to this 1% number um and the committee we we've we've basically turned every stone over in order to kind of see what makes the most sense um it's still on the table um I think that um it's not as much of the savings as we potentially originally anticipated um because we would be losing those fees that we're currently taking in right now we collect about $130,000 in fees um which would go away um but again it's still something that U the commit will need to discuss and and vote on okay does anybody el else have any questions or comments All right so we're going to move ahead to uh the next item on the agenda which is um uh the town manager is uh also going to give us a review of the uh the 1% [Music] budget thank you Mr chairman so the 1% budget for the town was a decrease uh from what was requested of 1,454 um the impacts from a 1% budget are the elimination of a public health nurse position um one position in the highway department uh COA van driver eliminated um DPW director position and councel on program coordinator not funded all educational uh seminars reduced in the police department um where there was a cut in salary account of 8,821 um it will result in the elimination of part-time elementary school resource officer reduced hours for the full-time school resource officer reduced response time periodic station closure hiring free resulted in positions vacant due to retirement not being filled backlogs and Firearms licensing evidence processing case disposition court case Discovery and tracking and decreas in availability of personnel for active ongoing investigations in the fire department uh closing of station one which is the chle station uh decreased ability to handle simultaneous calls response times increased primarily on the western side of town inability to operate two ambulance at times increasing response time and reducing ambulance receipts decreasing ability to handle non-emergency services to the public impact on the town's Insurance Services organization on the iso rating um which could increase Insurance costs for homeowners and businesses and the fire deposit salary account was reduced by $233,100 and if I could Mr Jim um I did leave a paper out there just to let people know um we're under the as you know the limits of 2 and A2 and and just to give you an example um our 2 and A2 increment in FY 25 was is 1,141 693 before we even start looking at funding budgets there items that we we have to address health insurance we've been fortunate the last few years health insurance has not increased that much this year it's going up 5.7% that's 322,000 right there retirement payment to Bristo County $229,300 our assessment to semre with regional Dispatch Center increases 150,000 this year and then the increase in all other insurance is property liability at bottom $78,500 so you take those off of that 2 and2 increment of 1,1 141,000 we only have 362,000 left to find budgets for both the town and the school all right thanks M does anybody have any questions um in the audience or from the boards for the town management right [Music] um the DPW director position that was voted on at town meeting to be funded correct it was voted to be established but we can't establish a position we don't have money BL so how does that kind of work if the resident said we need to get this done does that I mean again to quote a few people robbing Peter to P Ball but doesn't that kind of have to be starting to be looked at to start forming that DPW which we would then need a director for um we can uh look at that and work with the requirements we have right now but we can't hire a director for that thanks Nick um anybody else have any questions for Town manager Paul I think my question would be more for chief Clark um Chief Clark I'm wondering if you could speak to um what that impact would be about eliminating a part-time school resource officer and reducing hours of a full-time school resource officer and like what schools might not have the school resource officer and exactly you know what they do I guess to explain what that would um so it's kind of a fluid situation to be honest with you um initially from what I see we have to close the station there just no question probably during weekends there's just nowhere around it um probably 8 to four it'll impact we have a lot of people that do uh child custody exchanges in the parking lot they're going to be impacted by it also by Firearms licensing um because people come in on the weekends to get fingerprinted uh a lot of times so those will be the first two kind of direct impacts uh we did if you remember about a year ago there was kind of a demand to add three new school resource offices and I was I was against it because it wasn't sustainable as it obviously isn't and um so we added a parttime person if we need to that person's assigned to the detective division they're going to have to go back to patrol um as things kind of get worse if depending on what happens with personnel and I always use this this example that you know if we're all healthy the overtime we don't need as much if we're not healthy then we get then there's a higher demand for overtime so if something happens if people leave or if U if people are out sick for a prolong period of time or people have a surgery people go out injured it creates more overtime if that happens we're likely going to have to pull somebody back from the school um that full-time position now it may not be every single day but it might you know there might be a prolonged period of time that that might need to happen so you ask me you know know what they do they do a wide variety of things a lot of stuff I don't want to say in public but they deal with a lot of mental health related stuff they deal with a lot of uh critical issues regarding uh threat assessments they deal with a lot of school security working with the schools to make sure that we have a secure environment at the schools they they really um I mean we have a robust school resource officer program and you know I always use the terminology that they're rock stars in the schools I mean they just do a fantastic job you knock on wood we don't have any is we haven't had any issues my fear is if we start to Decay that and we start to take those people away from that and something slips through the cracks that's a concern thank [Music] you uh my question is probably going to be for uh Deputy Chief Wilson uh I'm curious about the the potential increase in insurance cost for home owners do we have any kind of figures as to what the impact might be for that oh sorry Simmons I didn't see you there didn't mean didn't mean to go under I don't you just repat I'm sorry he that's okay uh so you know the the potential increase in insurance cost for homeowners if if uh you know the the iso stuff doesn't go through do we have any kind of figures on what potentially that might cost to I have no idea the iso rating though they do the factoring our staffing levels how many stations you have open response Times Travel distances how many apparatus you have t back us how many miles they are specific residence that they're they're actually W policy for um but I don't know I've actually asked people to do the evaluations you could tell me so um I know it's a second okay thanks if you don't have it you don't have it sorry Chief real quick why still I love it so my my other question is while we're talking about you know emergency services and and helping other communities could this impact if you could go help another Community as well like if our neighbors in raob East and Mansfield are looking for help we might not be able to go help them if our staffing levels are low as well yeah that and vice versa we might be relying too heavily on them to come to us yeah that's yeah correct on both the accounts yeah so we we we do mutually all the time whenever we're busy if we need we need assistance in another Community come in and assist us and vice versa so we just had a two fire last week where we had uh seven different communities come in to help us uh with that fire so you obviously bless Staffing um it impacts how many calls we can do simultaneously so it's not common for us to have two three or more calls going on at the same time and short not PR person to call having St hasu time have thanks all right does anybody else have any questions or comments from the audience K NE 17 Bud Drive questions for the town manager the has the unemployment um cost been estimated given the uh reductions layoffs right now in the 1% budget we have increased the amount that we put aside employment okay thanks um I have a question for the uh excuse me I have a question for the finance committee so um this 1% budget Does it include any uh use of free cash or stabilization because I know that was a big topic of discussion at our last meeting it includes 1.2 million of free cash and no stabilization thank you all right any other questions any questions from the audience or from any of the other boards Y come on up this your name and address please uh Ryan Stalter 7 Stone Field Road I'm speaking on behal of Library I'm on the board of directors there um originally we were asked to quot a 3% increase which would give us our standard 45 hours which is 90% fulfillment at the Massachusetts Board of libraries requires we ask a 3.8% so that we can get to 50 hours a week get fully certified and be back on the track um Massachusetts library board was giving us a little bit of leeway because of the co pic that stopped so if we get a 1% increase we're looking at um keeping certification reducing the amount of uh passes that we have programs things like that we're going to try and keep everybody that we can um but again if we save 45 hours by next year we might be decertified again with 45 hours we're talking about $1 1,136 to be fully certified for 50 hours that would get us certified we' get another 5 to $7,000 a year from the state we'd be open 50 hours a week from Memorial day to day or vice vers um so that that's what we're asking for the 1% is going to hurt us and by next year it's possible that the talent that the state could be certified in when you look at desertification it takes 2 to 3 to 4 years to get desertified it's not just oh here's the money you be certified they be certified for year they look at the next year to see if you have the money to do this um the money that we're asking from the town is for salaries only we budget they need $150,000 a year to support the library building just in maintenance materials um janitorial supplies I was at me the other day the head librarian I was in an office and some little kid had an accident and one of the Librarians had to take care of it because they don't have a full-time jend so these are the things that these people have to do they go well beyond what have to do um that $150,000 comes from donations the friends of the library and the money we allowed to take out of the trust each year that's it anything else we're scrambling for money the materials if if we would do 1% we would have to take more money out of the endowment just for materials to make sure that we certifi that $45 a week so again we're talking about $177,000 a year for a 3% increase um and let us get the 50 hours a week um and then we can move forward from there okay if anybody has any questions I'll have any does anybody have any questions yeah I have one go ahead what what does Library desertification mean for the people that might be in the audience or watching at home when the library becomes decertified you are not allowed to share books with other libraries um we would reduce the hours that the library would be open um we still have to spend M on materials and things like that but basically it annihilates us from other towns we become an island there are 378 libraries in the Commonwealth we're one of six that's not fully certified right and like I said with Co thing they gave us a little bit of leeway with 45 hours that's going to end so we need to try and get to that 50 a week all right thank you Brian before you sit down and would you not you wouldn't receive the 46,000 in state aid if you do certified so we um this year we got $440,000 in state for being open we lose 12% open 50 next year that 40,000 could drop down a little more because they're not being soent but if we get 50 hours a week we're looking at5 to 7,000 $8,000 a year it's an extra so that 17 becomes 25 and that money really goes a long way with materials um we get grants from the cable commission uh for technology but like anything else the computers get old people rely on this stuff how many people are at the library use the Museum passes those passes are like $5,000 a year for us to to buy them for the year so that the population can use them things are Insurance other things they're not cheap so we need to keep moving on that and we have a lot of people that are just making barely over minimum wage and these are the people that are cleaning up the mess from little kids that had an accident with things that they shouldn't have thanks [Music] for okay does anybody else have any questions or comments Kevin since I'm in the front roow I was a little ad my told BR just said um when programs after school programs uh School uh offerings uh get reduced as well as um resource offices and and other um services around town library becomes even more important for kids to go to after school if they want have any other options so even though it's a small budget and it's often overlooked um you know the services that provides to the community for an extra $177,000 maybe need more next year uh than they have been in the past thank [Music] you thanks Kevin does anybody else have any questions or comments um regarding the uh 1% Town budget okay seeing none we'll move on to oh sorry uh Mike just to uh it was kind of gloss over um the Council on Aging elimination of the driver um elimination of the additional position that's needed um can you explain exactly what that impact looks like for the new senior center that is getting ready to open once it gets finished uh if we're even in a position to open it we we will open it but um you know the Hope was that we would have a functional Senior Center um you know the director spends a great deal of her time on human services so she's dealing with a lot of people that come in to the need help with food need help with housing um so she she's dealing the that side of things and we really wanted to have a program director in place that would handle all the programs for the seniors coordinate the van driver um so with the new building and we're one of the few towns that won't doesn't have a van driver um that so none of those services that we counted on be a to be provided so we'll be relying on volunteers again and U you know the service is uh very a lot of it's very personal confidential and volunteers can't do any of that Human Services side of things uh so um it's going to really stretch the people that we have working there right now so if I'm understanding you correctly there will be no way for people who cannot drive themselves to get to this nice new facility there will be no programs director so there will be nothing for them to do even if they can make them make their way there and so we will have a nice BR new building it will be vacant and unused for the most part um it'll be just similar to what what goes on now at the senior Senate with volunteers uh we won't be able to step up the program that we do there and it will cost more to operate than your building thanks go ahead Shar so I just have another question might just on the van driver because um and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong but the van driver just doesn't take people to the senior center I assume I assume they take seniors who are unable to get to doctor's appointments or things like that you know these are like serious things that that some of our seniors in town need so I just want to check with you first if that's an accurate statement that is and uh the van would also be used by veterans in town to uh go to appoint sent to be a bron now so and also to take people to the stores you know we don't have a supermarket anymore in N town and so the van would be used on certain days to take people shop and all thank you thanks does anybody else have any questions comments okay so seeing none we'll um move on to the next item the agenda um which is a discussion of the proposition 2 and a half override procedures um we do have Town Council here tonight um so I don't know Mike if you want to introduce and go from there thank you so Town Council Lauren Goldberg who's an expert on this matter um fill us in on different procedures that can be followed um if was that we looking to thank you Mr chair Mr manager um so proposition two and a half is a very complicated statute and it is a very complex set of of rules um what I'm going to try to do is explain to you the requirements for approving a proposition to a half override there are two parts to every override the first part is the appropriation that's made at town meeting and the second part is approval by the voters at the polls of an over right amount um one without the other is uh you know not uh as obviously not effective if it's a uh situation where there is um a rejection of a proposition to andf override at the polls then that essentially nullifies the vote that town meeting has taken um there is no required order however uh that uh proposition 2 and A2 appropriation and a ballot question have to be presented it is completely up to the select board and no one else to decide when to put a proposition 2 and a half question on the ballot how much the money uh the override amount should be and um whether there's one or more questions so the board is restricted um to call for an election for a uh ballot question at least 35 days prior to the date of the election um the the question the exact form of the question has to be voted by the board and written notice has to be delivered to the town clerk no later than the 35 days um so the select board can call an El a special election for any time in the future that it wants it doesn't have to wait till that 35th day before the election but it can call an election no sooner than that 35 days um so the election can come both before the uh appropriation or can come after the appropriation if the election comes before the appropriation then uh there's a an information um you know uh an information aspect to what the board produces what the fincom produces and the school committee produces in that there will need to be more um public discussion about what the looks like and what happens if there I me a lot like tonight but but additional um publicity about this maybe some newspaper articles um you know votes by the the various boards um because there won't have been a discussion at town meeting so that's the difference um when you have town meeting first there's a lot of discussion about what the budget would look like with or without the override and so voters uh who might not otherwise be informed or going to be informed because they go to town meeting um and because there's a lot of meetings where you all are analyzing the issues that are going to appear on the war um if the election goes first then if uh it it leaves two options for the board one option is to go to town meeting then with the 1% budget the without the override if it fails um the other option is to go to the town again with a proposed override budget and when you voted at Town meeting you vote the override budget contingent upon approval of a ballot question um some of you may say well that doesn't make sense how come it can go before the voters two times that is completely up to the select board it can go to the voters as many times as is possible with 35 days notice between the date of town meeting and the date um of September 15th now this is an ele a state election year so that may factor into the board's thinking about when uh to call for an override election there'll be uh a busy time at the clerk's office at the end of septe at the end of August the beginning of September um any recounts would have to happen also at the beginning of September and then things would ramp back up again for the state election at the beginning of November so that's something to be to be thoughtful about um an override budget can be presented to town meeting in a couple of ways one way is through a budget uh you know if you imagine the budget chart having columns as you know it does it could be you know recommended 1% budget in one column and then the additional amounts that would be for each that would be given to each department if the override uh ballot question passed if the override passed and so you would essentially be voting yes we want the base budget the 1% budget let's just say for this purpose with the override portion of that budget contingent upon approval of a proposition two and a half question um if the override passed at the election that's held before town meeting then you can vote the override budget without a contingency it would be that you have the ability the room in your your tax levy to raise that higher amount now I I think it's really important to stress that meeting controls how much money is appropriated under the tax levy when you go and you approve the budget and you approve you know a a purchase of a truck or a purchase of a a a cruiser or whatever it is that's up to town meeting town meeting isn't required to fund all the way up to what's been requested nor is town meeting prohibited from funding something in a in a different manner if it wants to propose something higher um as long as quotequote within the scope of the article and thank goodness that's left up to the moderator and not to me um so that would be something for the moderator to think about sorry but um you know I think it is typically the case that there's some leeway afforded by the moderator um in these kinds of cases because the budget as a whole is quite large and so a change to one or two lines within that may or may not be of significance um but again that's the moderator call um so town meeting for example if the uh override budget were to be presented to town meeting and town meeting says no we don't want to approve the override budget even if it's contingent on a b question then that's Town meeting's decision um the select board and finance committee and school committee they only not the finance committee as much but boards and committees and departments only have a available to them the amounts approved by town so sometimes there's a concern if there's an override it means you know forever we're going to have to spend more and that's actually not the case it is true that the town could spend more once the override has passed but it's not mandated by law so any year you can raise up to the the proposition 2 and a half Levy limit or that higher Levy that's created by an overhead but that's not a requirement under law that the money be appropriated each year in that way um see what else uh the form of the ballot question is set by Statute so some of you will say uh you know this is not understandable what does this even mean and the answer is that's what the state law says it has to be um so talking about the levy limits and what that looks like at some meetings is very useful so people um can understand when they get to the polls what that question is even asking um another question that comes up is could we go to town meeting and someone substitute a different funding source I heard the stabilization fund mentioned if that were to happen that could affect the total amount appropriated at that meeting if the ballot question was already on the ballot it wouldn't change the amount of the override that was CED what did I miss um I'm happy Mr chair to answer anything questions even if it seems duplic does anybody uh does anybody have any questions for Our Town Council um go ahead Nick all right how you doing can you um just kind give us a brief overview of what an override and a debt exclusion and what's the difference and kind of what's the long-term ramifications I guess you have no idea how much I wanted to answer that question um so an override is essentially a permanent increase in the Town's ability to raise taxes in the first year the override is used uh for the purposes for which it is appropriated in future years it is available for appropriation like any other tax doll um there is a reputation issue however if you know we say we're passing this for the schools let's say this year and for the future and then next year we don't recommend increases for the schools that is kind of the natural limitation on how those override funds are spent in future years years a debt exclusion is a temporary increase in the levy limit and it exists only as long as the loan that is uh related is outstanding and what the the debt exclusion does is it allows just the amount needed to pay the principle and interest on the loan to be raised outside of the levy limit so if you think about the levy limit um and and overrides and Deb exclusions as boxes that stack on top of each other the regular Levy uh limit that's the first box and it's the biggest one on top of that might go an override and that override would stay there forever so our Levy limit would move up and the override would move up so we would be getting the ability to raise more money over time that that uh override box would sit on top of the the regular budget box and then we would put on top of those boxes our debt exclusion box but when we're done raising the money to repay the loan that Deb exclusion box gets taken off of the top of the other boxes um so again a levy an override is a permanent increase in the levy limit and a debt exclusion is uh a temporary increase to pay for essentially a capital acquisition of project and then hypothetically let's just say we did a $3 million override that's clearly going to not be enough if you will for the schools right now now can we do another override in FY 26 FY 27 is there any limit to how many overrides you can do um as long as you're not hitting your ly ceiling which is essentially the most that the town can raise under state law then you can have an override as often as you want um again only the select board can put an override question on the Ballance so um you know there's a political aspect to this that can be very very difficult to surmount especially if one uh is placed on the the ballot and loses you know it's hard to come back and say voters you know we we know you said no in a big way to this but hey we think we need to present it again and I'm not saying that boards don't do that they absolutely do but it is a lot of responsibility and it takes a lot of explaining about why the board can do that so my question once the override of amount is written can that be changed so for example if it's written for 3 million could someone say I want to make a motion to make it only 2 million like is there is it the same progression at like town meeting where they could write in and vote on and discuss it and things like that could that happen or was once the amount written with good faith from all those involved can that still be adjusted um it can still be adjusted at town meeting as long as it's within the scope of what was recommended um often times it is very difficult to reduce a proposed override amount on the floor because you have to change each line you can't just say let's decrease everything by 1/3 that's not how it works and so it is unusual for someone to change an override amount in that much detail um when it exists there is a way to do an override without any detail at all that happens sometimes the risk there is that um once it passes you need to come back because you still need to appropriate the money remember we talked about it being two pieces um so I think it would be unusual um that would definitely be something that the moderator would need to okay ahead of time and that the the proposer would have to be prepared to do a lot of math um because that isn't the town's job to come up with that ont yes oops I'm sorry Mr chair sorry go ahead Y is it more common for an override a specific dollar amount or a percentage it is more common for it to be a specific dollar amount even if it is a percentage get translated into Dollars it doesn't grow the percentage doesn't grow fix them out yes uh Lauren so if say at town meeting um the town votes to pass an override amount of like 3 million and then the select board then has to vote to put an override on the ballot with a specific amount could that amount be different than what was voted at town meeting um thank you for that question so every time I give a talk about anything I like to say the lawyer's answer it depends thank you for giving me the opportunity for saying that um if count meeting votes to approve and override contingent upon approval at the polls then a change in the amount appropriated would I mean amount the amount on the ballot would mean that that override wouldn't be for the amount that it had intended to be if the the override amount was already on the ballot so you had the election first uh do looks at dollars as fungible and so D would say as long as you spend the amount of the override that was specified in the battle question for that purpose whatever the purpose was then you have the override meaning you could raise the L limit High you could tax higher but it would still be up to town meeting to decide whether to do that so a $3 million override at the polls before town meeting you could get to town meeting and decide you know someone could make a motion for to only use an extra 2 million of that um and I know we're talking about Millions like they're nothing but um we're just using examples thank you does anybody else have any questions for uh for Lauren or for the boards um anybody on the boards have questions go ahead sorry one more um so at town meeting any Resident can stand up and say three four five million would the between fincom school committee and the select board do we is it like a regular budget item in terms of like we can give a recommendation and then someone makes that motion or is it kind of just a free we think we like to think that town meeting is not a freefor all I think the moderator would agree with me um so if someone is going to make a motion at town meeting it has to be within the scope of the article if the article that's presented includes a base budget of you know I'm making things up 1 million and an override budget of 1 million if there was a motion at town meeting to then have the override budget be at 5 million I imagine I'm to look for confirmation that the moderator would say that that's outside of the scope of the article it's different in the other direction you can lower the amount that was not that people were notified about um without that being outside the scope of the article that doesn't mean however that that lowering of the amount of the override would actually accomplish what it is that you know we're talking about which is providing that extra funding for the budget so lowering the amount of the override um means that even if approved at town meeting you've only appro I mean at the election you've only appropriated that smaller am thank you Joe should give that microphone back to her um so just to continue on on that uh that we would still need to a have the amendment in writing correct Mr chair um the amendment would need to follow the normal procedure for amending an art a motion at Town what that mean line items would that Amendment me to include like number line item or how detailed do mean for the if you voting by line item then the detail need would be by line it and and as I said it couldn't just someone couldn't just come in and say we'd like to reduce the override by 2/3 or by 1/3 they still at least in my view have to come in with the numbers that that reflects um it could be that it's a you know 1% a 30% decrease we need to to know the actual numbers in order for town to vote okay does anybody else have any questions on proposition two and a half override for Town Council okay all right next up is town meeting Logistics so I think I'm going to give it to Mike my my question is um if if you are going to do an override um how do you want to handle town meeting do you want to have start the first night and do the budget and then see after you do the budget if you can finish that night or continue to the Wednesday but if for the first night it might be better if you take up budget first night are you saying take up the budget and only the budget on the first night if if you if some if for some reason it moves quickly and you can take up some articles fine but um it would be I think it would be smoother to do it that way it's up to you Mr chair thank you for indulging me um I just wanted to to say and I forgotten to get to this point we talked about there being two ways to do an override budget at town meeting so the first is a combined vote on both the base budget the 1% budget and the override budget with the override budget being contingent on the override at uh Town election the other way to do the base budget in one article and to do the override amount in the separate article um that can lead to issues in terms of what people want to talk about during the base budget discussion and so that would be something for the moderator to consider do you discuss articles let's say one and two together um and then take separate votes um versus saying we're not going to answer any override questions while we talk about the budget um so that's for the select board to think about and the moderator okay so Mr to do we have to decide tonight if we want to do that or is that just a recommendation to for us to consider in a future as like what we okay I'm not sure know what the answer to that is okay or at least my answer to that is so if it's okay with the board just we'll we'll put that off till maybe our next meeting and we can talk about preparing for T meeting if there's an over [Music] discussion I don't know what to do with this microphone it's annoying um does anybody else have any other uh any other questions um if not then we will um and thank you laen for that very comprehensive explanation of proposition I mean we don't even have any questions from the audience so you must have um so um I will um move on to the next item on the agenda which is the fiscal year 25 budget discussion and or vote on an override um so I honestly don't know where to start with this it's such a large topic um Mike I'm going to I'm going to kind of let you take it from here thank you so I just said sent out and uh to everybody different scenarios looking at so people can start thinking about if they were thinking of an override um and just to show what would happen over five years so um one of the one of the options is a $3 million override of 3% and you can see that for the first two years you'd have a plus but then we start running in deficits in 27 28 29 and just remember that these are all fiveyear projections and um let me just tell you one thing about fiveyear projections on Shar tank the other night Mark Cuban was sitting there and someone was there presenting their fiveyear business plan Mark Cuban looked at them and said are you kidding me 5-year business plan what business prepares a 5year business plan that actually meets that so I'm out of here say but so these are our best projections we don't know what's going to happen in 5 years from now I mean like I've said it before at the beginning of the year uh there was a prediction by Chase that home prices were going to drop 6 months later they're saying home prices going to increase by 6% so they didn't even know they're the experts so there are things we don't know uh so these These are projections um and we did our guest to show you what our Revenue would be going through the years and just let me remind you so in the fy2 if everyone did 3% it shows a a surplus of 544 391 now that can be less we don't have to spend for that or that could be used for Capital stabilization OPB and that's one of the discussions that we've been having at the finance committee and with the school committee in the town is that we we don't have money to set aside for Capital we're struggling to do capital projects um so if we had money that we could set aside to that we weren't using all our free cash for budgets like we're using 1.2 million this year that would be a benefit to the town but that or it can just you don't have to rise to it um if we did um there's another option there of 3 million at 4% in the third year we start running a deficit of [Music] 83,000 the next option is uh the 3 and A2 M at 3% and um you can see from that that you'd be fine until 28 when you'd have a $542,000 deficit and as I said before remember we don't know what new grow going to be um right now the assessor is predicting um in that year 300 ,000 this year was 748 th000 if we get new growth of 700 to 800,000 that year we don't have a problem but we don't know what it's going to be then uh if you look at the 3.5 million at 4% each year we start running into a deficit FY 26 of 301,000 and then FY 29 it's up to uh 4 million with a 4 million override and if the budgets only go up by 3% and and that's a speculation too because we've had years where we didn't increase the town budget by 3% and other years that we went up by 70 so that's just a projection we don't have to go up 3% every year we can see what happens happens when we get there um and with that if you did 4 million at 3% you really don't start having a deficit it's small $4,000 in 28 um which local receipts that's really not a deficit we could cover that and you stop running a slight deficit of 640,000 and F by 29 based on these assumptions which could change one one large building and uh you have uh some new growth that you can use then if you do the 4 million at 4% you start running into a deficit in FY 27 of uh $18,000 and you get up to 2 million up to3 million in FY 29 now the last option that I did is uh 5 million if you did 3% we have surpluses every year 2.5 2.2 1.6 1, 463,000 that is on 3% if we increase budgets by 4% um you don't start running a deficit until you get up to FY 28 1.1 and then 2.4 FY 29 and obviously it could be budgets of 25% budgets are 3 and a half% so these are just figures to start with thinking about um if you're going to do an override and what the future looks like and how what would be sustainable [Music] okay back to mik then I just wanted to thank um superintendent oil and Christine for sitting down with James and I all the time to uh go over all these numbers thank you Denise Mike just Clarity the numbers that you provide us in the different models simply modeling out how much money each department or the government versus School side would get if we pass these overs but does model out how it Compares against what level of funding looks like for instance I can tell based on the B dr's given that we're still going to do short 3 to 4 million year-over-year based on these projections what is that impact for the townside and then what is the actual short I don't want perception to be like if we do an override we can fund everything level because we still can't level fund um so no these these aren't based on um providing level services for next year this or right right it's strictly based on what would have for revenue and trying to figure out how we're going to split that um so it it would possibly be reduction in Services yep Dr re um I just want to um mention the 5year projections that we shared um with the boards here tonight um as industry unit said it's extremely difficult um to look at a 5year projection um because we really there are just so many factors that we just can't predict and um thank you to Mr unit and James um for working so closely with us over these last few weeks trying to figure it all out um so the fiveyear projections that um Christine um spent a huge amount of time putting together for the school department really looks at um best estimates in terms of Staffing um increases over the next few years um all of the colas um between 2 and 2.75 um we also took into consideration steps and Lane movements for staff um but as you mentioned Denise um when you take a look at the 1% recommendation if we were to get 1% year-over-year um we would be about $9 million off from where we would potentially need to be if we want to keep up the same level of service for the schools um when you take a look at the 3% uh we we use the numbers that Mr units um put in in terms of like that those numbers in that top section match up exactly with what he has on his sheets as well um and so as you can see that's about a $2 million difference there about a $2 million difference in um the 4% as well so um again these numbers are our best estimates based on what we have uh they also include about 11 to 12% increase on special education tuitions year over-year as well as a 5% increase in terms terms of Transportation so um it was an interesting exercise but thank you okay uh Cody uh Mr sherff so um Mike I think one of the things that might be lost it's not looking at these numbers there's a lot thrown out at everyone that's sitting in the audience and if you don't have it in front of you um basically what's being said is even with an override if we're looking at a 3% 4% 5% every year it is always unsustainable 100% of the time because you can only ever raise your Lev the taxable amount and the total tax that you bring in by 25% it is simple math if you raise by 3% you will always end up upside down so my my uh contribution here and my recommendation is if we are seriously talking about an override we also need to seriously talk about how we budget in this town and not looking at funding 3% 4% 5% year-over-year we need to stop that conversation we are Level setting we level set and we work with what we have going forward so that we are not upside down and I just wanted to the one sheet that I did Skip is the 1% if we did 1% every year we couldn't do it without using some free cash even doing 1% we have to use free cash for the next three years in order to fund that so I want to just really quick ask for a clarification it's it's completely possible I misunderstand this but I'm going to use the 4 million 3% as kind of the the um the example when I look through this so year one we have 1.5 million year 2 1.2 year 3 64,000 in Surplus we we can do one of a few things with it but the two I want to focus on is we can either not appropriate it or we can use all of it for stabilization whatever we may want to do correct and so I guess my my question is as we get into year four and year five particularly year five where we have a $640,000 deficit if we've actually not appropriated it in Prior years do we not retain that in the pocket do we not retain that ability to Levy that in the pocket so so we actually don't if if even if we use it you know partially for stabilization we actually don't hit the deficit in year five because we could thetically raise those taxes up like in in again year two or Year sorry year year 1 we're 1.5 million in Surplus we don't have to actually appropriate appropriate that at Town meting we can say we don't need the 1.5 we can put that in again in the pocket so we never actually tax it in year five we still have that ability to raise that ly right no you tax it you put in stabilization well we can't put it in stabilization the other the other thing is we don't have to you get to the lady years now you have a $10 million whatever stabilization and you just voted time meeting that yeah and and I'm not I'm not against that I'm just saying that the other possibility is if we don't put everything into stabilization do we not have the ability at a later date to go to our you know the town's maximum ly and actually fund that $664,000 deficit Mr Mr chair if I may um I just want to remind you that um we talked about proposition 2 and A2 and we talked about it a time a tiny bit tonight um proposition 2 and A2 limits the town's ability to raise taxes to to raise on the tax rate more than 2 and a half% of what it could have raised the year before okay so if you don't tax up to the levy limit that means that if all of a sudden you need to you're going to be increasing taxes far more than 2 and a half% and that's why if some of you are wondering why does my tax bill come out higher than 25% and that's because maybe we haven't raised all the way to the Limit previously and then when we need to it can exceed the individual taxpayers will be paying more than 2 and a half% as compared to the town the town's entire tax levy will not increase more than 2 and a half% but individual tax bills would Mr chair uh through you so just for clarification so we if we didn't allocate say 1 half million if we were we were running a surplus we didn't tax that which means we didn't raise the the amount there then the amount we're basing the 22% off of the following year is the reduced amount we don't get to add that back in and say well we could have what we did um Mr chair it's actually the exact opposite okay so the tax levy what's available in the tax levy is the full amount that the town could raise so if you raise below the tax levy in one year and the next year you think you need to to raise more money to run the town you can tax all the way up to 22% of what you could have raised the year before thank you thank you that's sir so I go back to my original statement that these projections are actually short they're we would be able to go further along because we always have a surplus in the early years right so we don't actually hit the the deficit as soon as we we think we do at least as soon as the projection show we do and and to Zach's Point again we could actually put it all in stabilization and have a nice stabilization fund for once which I'm not against you look at need for an answer to that question no I'm just just I'm just I'm just stating again earlier than we actually get so yeah I mean I think the way I'm looking at it denz is that there's but there's a lot more um volatility as you go out three four five six years right so I get less confident in the numbers as we go further out so yes to your question but also there's a hell of a lot of volatility going that far out so another thing to think about um anyone else questions or comments on override Denise in just for clarity it shows a surplus but we're still not Lev funded those amounts yeah at least in the school side I don't know what the not not completely different topic and not saying we are 100% Mr um D you and I are always on the same page on this um pulling from stabilization to fund for ongoing expenses is not something that we want to get into the habit of doing it's part of the reason why we've gotten here it's not stabilization it's free cash and utilizing non-recurring revenues to fund for recurring expenses so I like the idea but if we were to do that tax ourselves so that we could put it away for a rainy day fund we would just want to make sure that we don't end up back in that situation where we're funding the ongoing expenses and pulling from stabilization um because we'll end up in the same situation right yeah and and that's not at all my my my point was not that my point was that um some people in the crowd or even up here in the tables may look at this say you know wow even with an override we're back in to a deficit in in 5 years and you know to to Kevin's point I I 100% 5e project is absolutely ridiculous to Mike's Point and to Mark H's point but you do have to at some point put something down paper and say okay what do we believe our projection best guess what's our projection going to be and I'm just trying to point out that we don't actually get to that deficit as quickly as as these paper show that's what I'm saying and this is a very good representation what it would look like I just want to highlight that don't forget we have the Surplus early the Surplus cancels the Deb the debt later on that's what I'm saying talking too much Steve um I think the brought up a point um but it's it's not level funding for all these and any of these options here none of them have level services on here even up to the 5 million so that gets back to our last meeting where Nick and I were talking about um you know 6.5 million something like that was that considered is that something that was considered no we have done there but we can sit down and do that too if that's something you want I I just I know what what do you think the town people you some people obviously aren't going to be for anything you have to think about politically debate what will people be able to handle and just for everybody in the audience um these documents that we're looking at are all available on the town's website um so we we it's Tak some time to put all this stuff together so it did go out today but it is available for everyone to view um I believe it's on the town manager page if you go to the town manager's page on the right hand side there's a link to um to all these documents um for for tonight's special meeting so you can look at all these things that we're that we're talking about here um so um any other questions from the boards or comments from the boards w a lot all right we'll start with Nick and then we'll kind of work our way around this way I was just going to pull a ke silver and say can you get to the number and where are we going with this all right Sher no I was mov the question no question I um just want to draw uh the board's attention to the bottom of the 5year projection scenario that the school department prepared um that is the number that we talked about our last meeting so for the school department to have level Services um and then to also look at those essential positions that were unfunded requests this year such as kinderg ground professionals um the library media specialist at more Middle School um Etc um that would be the number for um more public schools that would also take a look at potentially um eliminating or reducing uh fees depending on where we want to go with that that's the 5 million yes so maybe um through the chair Mr unit can can explain from what drel just said that's a 12.63% increase but on our documents here it has it listed 3% that for the that's a document that you're talking about their document well yeah she's with the the $5 million Revenue increase yeah it just it doesn't mat up so I'm assuming more work um Mr chair yeah ahead just to clarify that that 5 million would be what the schools themselves need I I don't want to speak for any at the department um about what their needs uh may be um Norton has never passed an override and I think we felt it was important to show you what would be our ideal situation okay thank [Music] you I'm I'm not speaking for anybody else I promise um and then I saw a hand over here I think oh Zach oh sorry or have something on the mic and then follow okay um so obviously this is a political issue at this point and the town has know has never passed it over so the question is I appreciate all the numers that we put together I always love work what does everybody feel that the town can pass that's going to be the bottom bottom line here we can put them together minut all over but knowing the history I know my personal opinion I think that's that on Rival I mean twice before it's been rejected by the town uh I think this is a blue call Community with the silent majority in my view you know that want a low tax base they want to be able to retire in their homes and you know retire with think for as you know as long as possible and not be taxed out of their homes so with that that being said I think in my opinion if you want to compromise to get something done is a small override in my view two $25 million with possibly 15 17 going to the schools and the rest going to town and see if we can get something because the alternative is nothing and everybody's famili you with that I mean this is not you know I've said a finance committee meeting this is not Manfield it's not Fox borrow if people wanted that they would look at and they've spoken loudly twice before so I would like to see something done but I would like to see that in my personal view reduced so something can pass better than nothing because I think if we go down the road I can put my personal opinion of these numbers I think we're going to be in big trouble thanks Z who's I think Paula had some questions questions or comments okay it sounds like the conversation completely changed but I actually have a question about for Mike um so Mike the um New Growth projections that you have on here you have them as being reduced each year after f25 could you explain that a little bit Yeah the uh assessor and the building commission sat down to look at what they see happening and uh new development um you know the the blue star business park has room for one more building um and we're trying to push the state to auction off the land behind Dunkin Donuts but that hasn't moved forward so um other than single family homes we don't see right now uh any potential for new a lot of new growth so that's why the accessor seem they going down so this would include all the large single family homes going up over the next couple years yes Jo so I'm going to respectfully disagree with that so um my wife and I moved to this town 14 years ago we moved here because we liked the town we liked our neighborhood we did not want to live in Foxboro we did not want to live in Mansfield and yet I still want a town where we can fund our Poli Department we can fund our schools and we can fund our fire department I think it's naive to say that people live here because just because it'ss cheap there are other reasons to live in Norton besides just the tax [Music] rate does anybody else have any questions or comments Cody you're holding the microphones making me nervous go ahead I won't throw it at you um when I Was preparing for this uh meeting um earlier today I actually was going back through some more Google Documents um looking at everything that we laid uh before we moved here um and I have an Excel document of all of the towns that we were considering what the tax amount was what the schools were uh location I I weighed all of that and I think a lot of people do something similar to what Joe is saying and schools weigh very heavily on our decision to move here I'm willing to pay a little more I was looking at you know much higher tax based uh locations as well and I know not everybody has the the capability and the funds to be able to support it but at the same time everybody enjoys the benefits of the taxes that we pay and if we cannot fund what we have then everybody loses out the schools contribute the most to the future of what norn looks like it contributes to wealth growth overall because the property that you own becomes more valuable you want to retire you want to move to Florida you're going to sell your home you're going to get a premium for it because your schools are good your schools are crap you're not going to get as much you don't have as much well home your house is paid off I understand you don't you're living on a fixed income not everybody's going to move Florida or wherever I get that but we have to have a conversation too about this is a nice town we would like to continue for it to be nice and in order to do that we might have to pay a little bit more because 22% year-over-year is never going to keep you where you want to be thanks sorry the 2024 tax rate is 12.95 and so with the debt exclusions that we have in place currently we talk about stacking those buckets what does that look like over the next at least two to 3 years that [Music] exposion Denise we're looking [Music] up so just to clarify so your question is what does our tax rate look like for right now so um the Deb exclusion um on an average home is $363 and where're at the peak right now and it's starting to go down this year this year coming up I believe it's the peak in the dead exclusion [Music] Mr unit respectfully when it comes to the debt exclusion isn't there about to be another one added on in the debt exclusion process for the town buildings and the fields as well we just added a bunch we did we add the that and that the figure I gave you is uh the average single family home is $ 51,70412 what would be next year you can't J you can't judge by that okay to the assessed because the way you come up with the raate is you take the entire assess value of the town right so we don't know what that is from a year- to year basis um one thing that that we should probably mention is is that we have split the tax rate the last two years the select board has um between commercial and and uh and residential that was the first time we ever did that I believe in town um um so you know we have shifted a little bit it doesn't change the amount that we raise but it shifts a little bit of that amount away from residen and more towards commercial now of course you're always looking at are we going to Chase business away are we going to unfairly you know tax businesses you know all that that's part of it as well so we've done it very slowly slow increments um but that is also something that the select board you know voted to do unanimously which was to split the tax rate for the last two years okay um yeah I just a point of clarification cuz I think last time James could have been four meetings ago at this point I don't actually remember um but he did say come January 1 we're going to see most taxpayers are going to see another significant raise in their taxes much like we just saw January 1 2024 because I believe we were only paying the interest on the community center and the town hall and I believe that bill is now actually going to hit come 2025 so we should see a jump in taxes again if I'm correct um yeah the figure I'm giving you though was from the assessor figuring the fy2 got so going back to Zach's Point um before we had you know the political speeches going on um I think it's it's a good idea to determined number at this point so maybe we should work on that well that sounds like it's time to start talking about a number so um I would love to open that up to I mean I think that I'll just start I think that the issue we have here is that we're not going to get anywhere near level Services correct right so what we're really doing here is um to me is you know we're we're doing what we can um to I think Cody mentioned it or maybe it was was um niku mentioned it that you know what we're really doing here is is level setting or resetting the way that we do the town budget going forward um and so you know even if we if we were to Pro propose an override and pass an override um we can't continue to spend the way that the town has been spending in in the past and whether that's through contract negotiations or whatever it is I would just point out however that if you look at something like schools you say well we can only give our teachers a raise of 2% a year because you know that's what the town budget allows us to do then you run it's it's not like these things exist in a vacuum right so if you say okay we're going to pay teachers a little bit less every year in their contract or we're going to pay the police a little bit l in their contract um you're not going to get the police and the teachers that you want um and you certainly you kind of Poison the Well a little bit about the talent pool you're pulling from and you're you know so there's there's all these Downstream effects to saying you know well we can just you know lower how much the town spends all of those things have impacts so so I don't know where I'm going with this other than to say it's complex it's it's a difficult to just say let's just pick $4 million and say that's the number and we go to a 3% budget this year so me looking at it what I look at on this page here in these Pages here is that the most stable way to do this to get us to level set would be a $4 million um uh override uh with a 3% budget projection so there um would anybody like to comment or or tell me I'm I'm wrong but I mean it's it's it's awfully difficult to speak for all of the people that are up here and to speak for all the people in the town and all the people who are here I'm just saying that as I look at this the best option that I see on this here um and what I think could potentially pass is uh the $4 million number with a with 3% budget um any comments questions please Paula M um for this proposal that Kevin just suggested 4 million 3% what would that mean for um the town budgets um like the cuts that were suggested for the fire department and the police department um would there be half those cuts or none of them New York going to ask this question glad you're prepared so I was just going through uh some items today on it and um if the 3% budget was approved um we would be able to add back some of the police and fire overtime $40,000 to the police $60,000 fire um I was looking at putting the public health there back um giving the library 3% um adding the position in Highway and um also uh the van driver and the position at the co Steve asked about tpw um we can look at that does anybody else go ahead what I guess what if we did a 4 million what is what is kind of the break down looking at are we looking at 2 million to schools 2 million to to town are we looking at 3 to one kind of what is that I guess look out to because I think that's going to be a huge factor in what people are thinking here from a from a school [Music] level but it's right in the objections so 4 million 3% increase in the budgets would be General government budget of 15,942 277 and um School 3,747 636 so I guess Jen how much would that leave us short from Level services from this past [Music] year um we would still be looking at about a $3 million deficit of level Services um so at 3% we would be looking at um 22 staff cuts um plus the fee increases that we discussed um and the uh General supplies software all of those things um would still be off the table so so again my question we were to pass $4 million override plus a 3% we still don't know if we can have the DPW position um well we'll have to talk I'll have to look at Logistics on that we don't even have a place where we're going to put a DPW director so we'll have to uh we'll have to look into that and how will you doing through the chair I I would just like to know um how do I put this I mean the town voted on that position so how long do we have to act on that maybe that's a question for Town Council Mr chair for you um town meeting decides on how the money should be allocated so ultimately it's a decision that town meeting makes um there can be positions that exist you know in theory but that are never funded um and so there's no timeline on that any other questions comments uh we'll go Cody and then to Nick okay okay and if you want to come up if want to come up to the audience come up to the microphone and I'll um I'll WR it Mr chair for you um Dr oal I want to make sure that I'm looking at this correctly so the level Services budget for the schools for fy2 um at the top of this shows 38510 831 is that an accurate number yes is that okay so if we're using that and I'm looking at it compared to to the to the 1% um budget number that would mean the schools need 3,457 324 in addition to the 1% that's already recommended okay anyone foll my map uh the fire um we have [Music] 233,000 [Music] so if we're looking at schools at 3,457 324 Plus 23310 for fire and 108,000 for police that's 3,798 444 and if we want to throw in another 177,000 for the uh for the library we're still well within the 4 million and then we've got whatever else to allocate and we can get into the minutia but I think that gets us the majority of the way there has anybody seen any issues with those numbers schools how do you feel about that number oh sorry Nick I you wanted to speak I totally forgot um so I think it's important for everyone to see so as Cody mentioned the 38 million 510 831 that is that's our number for level services this year um we were originally a little bit closer uh to 12% but we did some uh digging we worked a little bit with Mike and James in terms of utility costs and other things so I want to be really clear that that number has changed slightly um since we uh initially presented this um if that was the casing we were able to get um to that to that place we would be extremely grateful um um I I think it's really important and I don't want anyone to think that um I am being more money hungry out here um I think that you know any additional funds is extremely appreciated but I also want people to know that there could potentially still be Cuts if we're not at that number I think it's just really important to be clear so I'll pass it back down to you um we're going to let Nick go and it was just a follow up on that because um the numbers there don't anticipate what was it4 a student so if that hits then that's an additional and then that could impact so yes and we would have to come back at call town meeting and and f that process go ahead and I said the same thing last meeting as well I think the the issue we're going to run into is if we just go to 4 million override we are going to be back whether it be a year or two years from now because is we're still not going to be level serviced so I understand the 4 million sounds like a fair number will give us a little bit of money where's the schools are still not going back to where they are we know how this town works we have one shot at this if we if we don't do what is going to get us to where we are Level serviced we are again putting a bandaid on an amputated arm maybe we put a little gauze on it with a $2 million or whatever $4 million override at the end of the day it's not helping for the future of what we're trying to do okay thanks Nick um go ahead wait to see if they answer the question um name and address please sorry name and address please oh Rob Walsh uh 341 south wester Street um the 4 million number right now you're trying to find a number that be palpable to the public but cover as much as possible but just curious what is the number if we were all to say we're going to give you what you want and what you need so no Cuts you keep your programs you keep everything and I realize this is going to be a higher number I'm ask going put the tough one here but you know that's a high cell but what would that you you know this is police F to everybody gets everything they so um as I said at the beginning the cut from um not a cut I want to know what the reduction from what was um originally asked for to go to the 1% budget is $1,454 for the towns side my question was well if we're going to do an override what is the number that would really set things right back and you're keeping everything well we would need one , 45,000 and that would have to be added to whatever the schools needed sorry just want to make sure I'm giving you guys the exact so 1, 145,000 I think a point of clarification for that too though is police and fire gave us will the town manager recommended and they were only asked to do for 3e% of whatever it was I'm sure if we asked them to say hey give us your ideal situation that i' like to get much larer what this schol so for level Services it's 3,843 188 so 48 if we round it up to about 5 million we're keeping everything is that correct what is that you see what I'm trying to get to that on the school end if we were to get 3.8 million yes L service that keeps having in this year this year right but if we're voting for this to be that much more is being pulled from the public every year I know that's C that would cover subsequent years too correct so if we vote that this year that raises our living limit our 11 limit only goes up 22% on that next year um why just jump to what I'm after here is um the reason I would entertain the idea and say hey let's just find out everything you guys want and need and give it to would be with the idea of also and you guys heard me Mak comments on this posting with conditions and those conditions were about and I was seeing some in this meeting was kind of Harding forecast start to pl we start knowing what's going to hit us before they come I'll be honest this kind of this thing a deficit this large Seem to come up on us awful fast I got a hope that the impression we got that nobody saw it coming to the year is just false and wrong um the school department has been talking about this fiscal cliff that are you here I am good job thank you very much sir um saw the difference when you took over um but that's what I'm trying to get at I don't want to hang up here at the mic too much longer um I'm trying to find out what's the big to answer your question on that the last five year projection we did call for a $4 million deficit in 2024 okay well so then the number is you said 5 million just I did a rough Roundup from before was still not right that's no that's that's just that's just for this year so Take 5 million and multiply that by 2.5% that's the increase next year okay and we don't have an option of planing so if you put if you increase the budget this year by 5 million and you want to increase next year by 4 or 5% you only have 22% above that 5 million next year doesn't have it doesn't add up you need another override okay so do we need for more at this time [Music] PL you you can do that as long as you don't spend it all this year as we talked about earlier so what would the number is five accurate the number I have is $3.8 million from the schools and then Mike you said level services for the town was over a million about a million 45 1,45 so for this fiscal year fiscal year 25 five we'll ground it up to yeah I ground it up to five and then if we were actually planning that we were going to get getting s years so we wanted to be better position to absorb that is there more money we should for that so that's good question for for the boards I'll put my consens I think we should do that and just CL for it I don't want to taxes any any El you know but I don't want to cut this stff a place where we're not that with this question we're going to keep the stuff let's okay thanks M appreciate it okay so we're looking at about 5 million for L Services um and James had mentioned I know he's not here tonight but at the last meeting Mone that we need to put into free cash is that correct CU I'm I'm circling back to what we talking about the last meeting about six we were we were talking about that if we did an override of $5 million we wouldn't use the 1.2 million free cash we'd leave that right now we're using 1.2 million in cash we could leave that for cap stabilization so we would we would need to add it to we come up with like we discussed at the last G okay okay uh go ahead joh so I'm heing $5 million am I the only one of these tables that remembers a number of 65 million that's the free cash that million in so Joe if you don't mind I'm going to I'm going to bring up a political thing here and probably take some fire for it um it's okay Steve um so six and a half let's say it's $6.5 million I think I said this three meetings ago thank you the only way that we get the town and the people in this town to vote for and approve 6 and5 million override is if we get everybody on these boards behind it absolutely I'm not disagreeing with that I'm trying to answer Rob question so I just I just before we go down the road too far of putting out a number of 6 and5 million I think we have to think about who's going to support a $6.5 million honestly I'm actually concerned about the 4 milli a number that you put out is potentially being too high for people to to SW all right uh microphone go ahead sorry I totally missed you so go ahead I'm sorry um I'm Maran Welch um I actually don't live in Norton I'm not a political person however I am a longtime Norton teacher I'm retiring in June and I will be on fixed income like so many the people we've talked about um I I just have to say that um I began my teaching career in your in the ' 80s I've had some with your kids um I taught for a little while was home with my kids for a long time and I returned to Norton and um so I've spent over 40ish years in Norton and I think the schools are a wonderful place to send everybody into your point um your schools are important these are the kids who are going to take care of us when we're in the hospital when you're needs to be fixed they just don't go there for daycare during the day to be cared for they are our true future so I think the more that you can do to fund the schools and and to contribute to what we need for these kids everything is more expensive today everything and they are they are our future so I think I would have said my kids to Norton schools I don't live in town but I would have gladly have sent them and I think that the staff the school committee and and teachers everybody does the most they can with what they have for funding and I just hope that Orton does what they need to do not just for the schools but for the priest the fire um it's just critical for everybody so I just had to say my pie before I exit per but I will be following it because I know how hard it is to make all of these decisions um Michael and I grew up together in town and and I remember my mother-in-law and you'll appreciate this none of her three kids went to Public Schools they went to Catholic schools because she was opposed to public education but that was important and I remember um back 20 something years ago when P was in the midst of doing an override and I never thought my in-laws would have a vote for an override their kids didn't go to public school and I remember talking to her and she said oh of course dad and I are voting yes and I said why and she said it's just the right thing to do simple as that simple as that fire tomorrow sure so I have a lot going through my mind so I'm trying to organize it before I speak but um I just wanted to I guess in terms of we're talking about a figure and we've I've been on this committee 7 years um this is not a cliff that we have not discussed in the last 7 years we discussed this Cliff every year for the last 7 years and of course discussing our deficits predates Me by many many years as well and for people who did not live in town which includes me in the 9s um there were overrides attempted there were overrides attempted two years in a row I believe in the early to mid 2000s 92 and 93 and then [Music] 20 2008 and 2016 and 2017 so you should have let Peter speak first thank you thank you oh that's Cy more um I was speaking generally but now we have the specifics and that's great Peter thank you um I've lived here since 2006 uh my kids are actually almost through the system but I don't plan on going anywhere so I plan to stay here too and so I look at it a community issue and I have always viewed the overrides in the past as a community issue that it's not just about one Department it's about the entire town and if people remember back to 2016 the amount that was requested and was put on the town meeting um as an article for an override amount was 3.7 million and it lost by 93 votes at the polls past town meeting if I'm remembering correctly anybody can correct me and it lost by 93 votes so we had a pretty good turnout about 5 5500 people so the year later that was um in April of 2017 we did the same thing and um or we did an override I should say we didn't do the same thing we did an override that was 2.2 million so we reduced it by a million and a half to kind of listen to the town's people who were saying that 3.7 million was too much and it felt like well 93 people we've just swing 94 people to sort of agree with that and see the the value of that and it lost by 764 votes so while I agreed with Mr Scher that 5 million 65 million are the amounts we would need to keep level services to keep pace and not be back here in 2 years or 5 years I don't think that a six and half million doll override is going to be palatable to the residents of Norton and I so I just don't think it's realistic again you will not find somebody more Pro Norton and pro Community than me um but we get one shot at this is how I look at it as well and I look at it like we have to get ourselves somewhere rather than at 1% where we have to cut everywhere so my two cents is that for $4 million is reasonable it adds up to most of the things that are on or a lot of the things that were on both the schools and the town's lists it does not correct everything we look at a 3% increase and we figure that out we live with it um because we don't want to live with zero increase and or zero amount increased to the budget and or the levy and a 1% increase which Cuts everything it cuts everywhere thanks um I'm going to speak first as a resident not as as a finance committee member for just a minute um I just got very emotional things as well to speak she was my son's first grade teacher um I do see another one of my children's teachers Miss Weber here tonight as well um so I just want to make a quick statement about not just the schools and our teachers but also our Public Safety um uh employees in town I am a firm believer that you get what you pay for and I'm a firm believer that we should be um as a community investing in the people that are going to keep us safe and the people that are going to um teach our children and I've been so lucky so far that um my children have had such amazing teachers and I want that to continue for my children and all of our children and grandchildren Etc um okay that's it I'm going to get really emotional things going on about that so I just now I just wanted to speak to what Bonnie was saying and I agree with her in that I think at this point we either do nothing and keep dealing with the same um pains that we're dealing with or even worse um down the road or we come to a compromise um asking for 62 million to me is uh not work in any stretch of the imagination um so I an agreement that this 4 million um sounds reasonable and then we you know try to go from there thank you Paula Peter um Peter before you speak um tomorrow is Peter's birthday I'm am Peter J wi your Hy M Gorton and I love this town I love this community and I and these school people are good at what they do and they are our future bless them pleaseing for departments our future and let's move this time forward let's this is a bunch on it move this time forward and we steal all of you so let's move this town forward thanks Peter um anyone else have a question or comment I thought Nick the difference between A4 million and a $6 million override for the average resident is $271 a year if it's $271 a year and it keeps us away from coming back here again in 2 years why wouldn't we go for more it puts it on we're not the side of it we can we can be all one board and say kumaya it's going to come down to the taxpayers the taxpayers make that decision is it worth it for their for their situation to have level services and give us a fighting chance or is it worth going through the cuts I don't understand why we would be going for something less than what these people are are funding now that makes no sense okay thanks Nick um go ahead hit the microphone hi I'm Val I live Nick I'm going to do something insane and agree with you first time so I think um I understand first of all it feels like there is a huge pability issue with taxes in general in this town and I get that we've gone back and forth about we we're comparable to other towns and if we're different and all that the thing that I do is always just look at the numbers and a $4 million override would hit the average homeowner in this town with a $500 increase to their tax Property Tax Bill a year a 5 million it gets closer to 1,000 but it's still under $1,000 a year year and folks who are in smaller houses again the average is like $510,000 folks in smaller houses are going to see well below those numbers I would be above those numbers the thing that I want to say that I maybe didn't have enough of the information straight the last time is that we do have because it always comes up with a fixed incomes there's the senior tax program for residents over 60 if anyone is watching who would need that kind of help you can do up to 41 hours per fiscal year $12 an hour and you can get a maximum of $500 applied on the credit to your tax bill so if you aren't already taking advantage of that we did have an override that could help folks who are going to have trouble with that increase there is also and I think I spoke about this the last time I did confirm that the Norton cares fund which was established as I understand it by the select board during covid um was founded to help folks with Co costs but can help with increasing taxes for folks who are struggling in town in general um and those checks can be mailed to nor cares care of nor services at 7 EB street so there are ways that if a few hundred a year is really going to break somebody's budget I've said this before I am willing to help personally but there are also multiple ways in town that those amounts can be helped and if we're looking at the difference between a $4 million which is like a $500 increase and a $5 million which is a couple hundred bucks more than that to me500 700 again that's the kind of thing where that's within the ability to be helped by the town programs and by other folks in town and so to my mind I think we should shoot higher than a 4 million because to your point Bonnie the 3.7 million didn't pass and then a 2.2 million didn't pass so a four still might feel too high to people but there is this feeling that well the numbers keep changing and you were saying 6.5 before and I feel like five is closer at least to get us somewhere that we're not going to be right back at the table so I um personally would like a little bit of a higher one again just those numbers all sound really big but when you look at your impact to your tax bill the difference between a four and a five is not that different every year it's only a few hundred so that to me is why I would say that maybe we want to do one that was higher so thank [Applause] you go ahead so um I'm going to do something that b never does but I often do an that's a gr with Nick as well um I I think we're we're sitting here trying to accomplish an impossible task right we're trying to figure out what will pass and what won't there's there's absolutely no way to know what's going to pass it's it's a Fool's end so I I look at this and I say all right 5 million gets us to level service anything less than that and we're saying to the towns people you know vote on we have too much right now we need less than what we have I don't think that's what the voters are doing I think the voters are looking at this and saying either there's one two voters right there's I'm sick and tired of fiscal craziness I want to get this town back on its right footing or they're voting no there's no in between anymore I I think we've gotten down the road far enough that you have to say 5 million should be our starting point we shouldn't be going lower than 5 million there's there's no way I I don't think the person that's voting no at 5 million is voting yes at 4 and2 I I think we're we're completely delusional if we think that's the case so for me I think you know and I didn't want to talk about the numbers and I thought would it should really kind of be a border selectman issue because you guys own going approve it but I I can't see how you started at under 5 million quite frankly thank you any other comments or questions go ahead one up I'll say exactly the opposite what else was I going to say right mark42 our you know it's going to be a number you're going to go for a million for this a million for the police and fire and Jen how many how much do you really need what's the number you need if we're going to so level service is 3.8 3.8 so now we're up to 4.85 million I thought it was a million for the uh um free cash or something like that so now you're up to five or six politically now you're going to startop talking about you know people like me and whatever else they're going to look at let that number and go no way you're just you're You're Dead on Arrival I'm thinking like uh a million for the police in fire I won't live in a town that doesn't have a fire station that's not open or a police station that's not open I want to bring back the we we we brought in the uh um the um the guy DPW guy I guess you want to say and there was something else there there was like four things um that we should find from the um C Center for about a million dollar right there for everything right there on the town side but if you go more than say 2 million on the school side I know that's going to kill you and you're going to have all kinds of cuts you my number is at 3 million if you go to five or six like you're saying you're going to have a bunch of people just going to say no way that you know what I mean so you just got to look at it now just what number do you think you're going to be able to pass I I understand you probably should go to six cuz you don't want it ni next year you don't want to come back a second time but you might if you go with a $6 million or a $5 million no even your $4 million kill it's it's probably no i' go with three and that's actually I wrote something I said I like two I'll go with three so you're going to get into negotiations like that what politically is palatable to people again like myself thank you okay thanks Mark can I yeah go ahead JZ and then we'll take the speaker as so and he's absolutely right right there are people who want this to be kind of skewed one way or the other and they have a number you say I care about police I care about fire and and I'm not putting words in your mouth but you know I care less so about schools so the schools have to take the cuts you know so be and and that's how this is going to play out there are going to be people who vote that way and they're going to be people who would vote the other way and we're kind of you know we're kind of tasked with saying okay well what makes us what makes us right what gets this town back on on track and we should be doing that and the fact that somebody doesn't you know doesn't want to vote for that shouldn't sway us we don't need 100% of the vote I mean I hate to say we need 51% of the vote right so look at this and say okay what gets us on track what what's the somebody said what's the right thing to do Miss wel it's what's the right thing to do the right thing to do is get us back on track not to put some stop Gap the the the bandaid on the amputated arm is Nick was saying that doesn't make any sense at all thanks TZ all right um go ahead with the microphone just give us your name and address please um joose for Milly um I don't time but I'm the president of the Teachers Association um and I want to thank everyone for all the kind words on behalf of um my members that were said here tonight um we appreciate it very much um um the many who are here and the many who are watching uh at home um I urge you to consider an override budget that um creates a future that we can sustain um in the schools um I I think about other things that I I heard uh here today when the presentations were happening and I think about my own son doesn't go to school here um but and and joy and I think of the joy of the things that he experiences in school and the things that I see my students experience the joy they have here and I worry about not just these things being able to hold on for one more year but these things being able to sustain um I don't want my students to have access to musical instruments during the day hopefully for next year hopefully for the year after I want them to always have that I want my students to have an open Library like they did when I started teaching here 18 years ago I want them to have affordable field trips I want them to have access to foreign language um in the same way that I go to meetings and I advocate for these things for my son um he has access to a wonderful library system that has tons of programs that bring him Joy I know I have students who go to the library here and love it I don't want them to lose that and I don't want them to have it just for next year and I don't want to be having this conversations over and over and over again um cuz I love my students and that's hard sometimes because they're teenagers but I think some laugh but the parents didn't I think um um and this is why like we do it this is why all the people um behind like I'm just sitting in the back and I'm watching them I'm thinking of like Jen and Diane and Kate and um the two angs I'm doing see these people just work so hard and they bring me so much inspiration every day um and we are motivated by the joy that our students experience and we want to see that continue so I urge you to please um consider an override budget that is going to make these wonderful things that we do sustainable maybe bring back some of the things that we've lost um and make this a place where we just give our students the best that we can because they deserve it thanks um um this is a question for Town Council actually uh so if we you mentioned that we can we can have a% budget and then a you know override budget is it feasable to have a 1% budget in a 4 million budget override budget 65 million or multiple multiple choice I guess that way yes that was not a very loyer I think you should congratulate amazing um so I I I want to just speak again you know one thing that I think that we I think is important to recognize is that what we are talking about here is investment in our town right so we tend to get focused a little bit on costs and cuts and not focused on what are we doing here we're investing in the future of the Town by yes paying extra at our taxes but what are we getting for that we're getting a town that has not just good schools but great schools or maybe a top 10 School District in the in the state or whatever it is like if that's what our goal is or should be then we're we might not get there for 20 30 years but at least we're investing now and what might happen in the future so that that's the way that I that way that I look at it now to the to the difference between a $4 million override or a 6 and5 million doll over I Joe kind of Stow my thunder which is we can certainly discuss that as a board and we can also talk about what to present um at at uh at town meeting with the finance committee and and go and you know go that way um but I I I know I'm harping on this it's very very difficult to come out and support any amount of an override with um individuals who are on these boards who will leave here tonight and then go out into the world whether it's the social media world or whether it's it's their friends and family or the people that elected them and leave this room and say I'm not going to vote for an override no matter what the amount is that's what makes it Dead on Arrival it's not the amount that makes it dead onal it's that the people who have the influence in this room who are elected to be leaders of this town will go out and say I am not supporting a six whatever it is a $5 War ride if they say they're not supporting it then there's not enough support in the community to get it done so I'll say it again unless everyone on these boards and in particular those who are the most vocal about being anti- override if they do not support the override then it is extraordinarily difficult for it to pass if you think it'll pass at $4 million or $6.5 million without the support of those particular people and we all know who those particular people are so let's be honest okay so if those people who I respect Okay and like and have disagreements with but if those people go out and tell their friends and family and the people that voted for them that they won't vote for an override we won't have an override so that's where I stand on it I'm happy to vote to throw a four four million $6.5 million override putting on a special election ballot but it's really hard to do that if I don't know that I have the support of the public and of people who are leaders of this town supporting it as well so that's my feeling so one final thing I'd love to have their support I would love love love to have their support to say you know what we've gotten to this point and we need to do something to fix it and I'm on board I'm on board with 4 million or $6.5 million override I will be full-throated out there saying I support of this because this is the kind of town that I want so that's that's what I would love to see go Mr chair so through you to Town Council if we to to Joe's Point thank you Joe for for raising that question because it did not occur to me to have three options on town meeting um if we had three options at town meeting and the voters at Town meeting approved 1% 4 million and 65 million could you have on the special election ballot an option at 4 million and an option at 6 and A2 yes and sorry I'm so used to your short answer she didn't say it depends Mr chair I agree um no I just wanted to be clear that it's up to the select board are you allowed to have a pyramid override where you have choices yes you are are you allowed to have more than one option at town meeting yes you are it's a complex thing though to explain to to voters um oh yeah you have this option and this one and this one so again I I do think that the question of what is palatable and how you're going to be able to support that is going to make and Town Council just a quick question isn't that Jack's problem as the monor go ahead um just to follow up on your point um Kevin uh I I personally not just as a a finance Committee Member but as a citizen and a voter in this town would like to hear from each of the elected officials where they stand on this because some of them are asking for more and more and more and it sounds to me a lot like let's P the budget that we're asking for in the override so that it fails Mis I would like to hear from somebody what exactly their position is if you are asking for more money will you be vocally supportive of that override [Applause] attempt so don't ask V there none of your business and the story go ahead so your phone my question is this you made previous comment for $4 million we've heard from a couple different people on a couple different boards we've heard from the public so my question as we sit here at 9:40 um is the select board prepared this evening to give not only the school committee the finance committee the voters a number for what this override looks like for this year being that you guys are the ones who hold this power to put this number together is there a number forthcoming based on these discussions at this point so I can only speak for myself I can't speak for the rest of the board members um but um as of tonight right now I would be supportive of um putting uh two budgets on the um uh three budgets uh up for discussion at town meeting um one with a 1% increase one with a four um $4 million override and one with a $65 million so I I'll give the board the opportunity to speak if they wish thank you um Kevin I I actually agree with you I think I'd be forward supporting both of those all three of those on on the Bel um not on the B sorry for town meeting um and for for reference um my bringing up and I'm sure some other people bringing up the 6.5 million was in reference to a question of what was needed in the town um not playing a political move to Pat it and kill it that's just ridiculous I would absolutely v% leave it up to the people it's the town's people to vote um and I'd have to Steve I actually agree with you so there you go um no I I 100% agree I think um you know we really have to figure this out we can't keep kicking the can and um yeah i' like I said been personally when talk start talking about personal you know I've been here 22 years um I have three kids in the school one's already graduated and you know these are going to affect you know everyone um and it's not just about you know I think I've used the Police Service I use the the fire department used um so it's really important that we just fix what's broken I also be fully supportive of the um 1% 4% no sorry 1% 4 million million uh options available as well sorry have um and just I just to understand for the actual ballot election if you do the multiple options how does that work how does that get worded with the different options I'm not sure understand [Music] that before I give you the microphone um I have a similar question but um is it also possible to have um one budget approval contingent upon another contingent upon another I don't even think that's fair how long do you want to be here one word to start so the way that the pyramid overrides work is essentially there's directions that say to the voters you can vote for one or more whatever one gets more than 50% and has the most number of votes is the one that wins so you could pass two of them for example but the one with a higher number would be the one that one um in terms of could you have a contingency that's contingent on another contingency um do really uh looks down on contingency in the first place um I have seen conting contingencies uh it really sounds like you're thinking like a lawyer I don't want to worry you okay that expl it um but so so that is something that you could do uh and you know there would be a way to talk about it again I think it comes back to how you're going to explain it and and that's the the hard part so to move this forward then if if if the board um were to um make a vote tonight um we would make a motion to put it on the uh town meeting warrant um and specifically the amounts that we have discussed is that correct yes okay okay that being said I'll move to put the 1% budget the $4 million override and a $6.5 million override on the wars second okay hearing a motion and a second is there any further discussion okay all in favor I any opposed okay so it's unanimous V from the board to for those options on the line um uh sure how much is the 1% of the toping I've got a four and a 6 and a half what's a 1% I'm do level that's that's the no just regular what we have we have regular what we have yes awarded what we can do right now without any over corre right but that's all the cuts all theut so it's like a no and two yes yes all right does anybody on the board or anybody in have any other questions or concerns um I don't see oh sorry go ahead hi thank you um Brian gson from 9en Drive I just have one last thing to say thank you very much for all of your work uh here tonight but I do have a daughter who's going to come up with some visual aids thank you very much uh this is my daughter liia augustson she's spoken uh at other meetings correct um and I just wanted to speak quickly tonight about um being people who need to come out and vote for what you've now just put out there for all of us and Norton public schools have talked about their portrait of other graduates and what your student will hopefully look like when they graduate school I'm a teacher and I gave my daughter an assignment and I said take your brother who is 6 years old he's a kindergarten and paint a portrait of him I didn't tell her everything at the beginning I said just paint a portrait of your brother use whatever you want she's a great artist I love her and the first portrait is this one right here you can show the audience too if you want that is what she did of her brother I said you can take as much time as you want use anything she finished that in an hour and 20 minutes I said are you happy with it she said of course I am I think it's great I'm a teacher I said well now the next portrait you can't use your paints you can only use colored pencils I took away some things from her and then I said you can only do it in half of that time you can only do it in 40 minutes I made some cuts to this portrait of grad which is the second one which is in colored pencil which I think is also very good very nice job of course then I told her sorry that's not you're not done yet you get the same canvas but now you can only use pencil and you only get 20 minutes and this is her portrait of her brother still kind of looks like him are you happy with it yeah it's okay it's okay and then of course I went now into your fourth L we're going to cut some more out of this portrait of a graduate this six-year-old who's going to hopefully graduate from noron public schools when he's a senior and I said you can use pencil you can't use your dominant hand sorry and you can't use your eraser and you only have 10 minutes I made more cups to her and this is the one at the end his eyes are a little wonky I can maybe tell that it's James but that's what he looks like so while I'm talking to everyone here I'm also talking over here hi if anybody's watching on YouTube later or live right now I'm talking to the parents of all those Elementary School parents all the preschool parents what do you want your portrait of your k kids to look like what do you want it to look like what do you want to give to your kid when they hopefully graduate from Norton public schools that is all thank you Stephan 12 James Street I think the select board should have another vote and that vote should say a written definition of what you voted on from Coban and paig cuz I think you've broken the law it's something to think about get it in writing thank you or make a vote don't leave here without the vote you're foolish to do get it from them in writing what you did tonight is it legal and what are the [Music] consequences thank you okay thank [Music] you Mr chair thank you um as I said I I think you have every ability to present more than more budget and uh that is finally going to ultimately up to town meeting to decide what it wants to support uh there is no cul the Page by the way it's K La it's been that since 2016 so just want to make sure that's on there for the record and certainly if the board directs us to provide an opinion on whatever it likes we would provide that opin okay thank you the Town Council um all right I don't see anybody else at the microphone I don't see any hands up or anything so um I will entertain a motion from the select board to uh to adjourn a motion in a second all in favor and I will motion to adj a second all in [Applause] favor