##VIDEO ID:i_u2mAN84rA## all right everybody I'm going to call the select board meeting back to order we just returned from executive session um now we have Weare of a joint meeting with fincom and with the school committee so you're welcome to open your meetings um I'm calling be uh October 10th meeting of the finance committee to order and I'm calling the October 10th joint committee meeting school all right um I I was going to take the lead from Mr Snider from before and set some ground rules but I think we're all we all know um to be respectful and I don't think I have to say that to anybody in this room so um I did want to start with two of the items uh the free cash and then the overlay um kind of going out of order that way the school committee can chime in on on their part and they can stay or they can they can take up if they'd like you're welcome thank you all right I'm ready to go get ready so in front of you I you have the uh potential use of free cash uh we started with a balance of $ 6,524 39 um I'm recommending uh $1 million go into stabilization 1,500,000 in the capital um 125,000 into OPB then the articles that we have um we'll use 50,000 of free cash for an engineering uh drainage Improvement uh this will be to hire an engineer to do a study on Barrow's Court area and then we have another property on south wester Street um kind of across from the fire station there where the water uh comes off the road and goes through the property and we need a drain easement there um schematic design design uh for the Middle School roof 50,000 separation expense 163,164 for pond management uh prior year bills 1,884 the budget supplements 79275 snow and ice 280,000 and with that it'll leave a balance that we can carry full um to be used in the future of $2,412 181 okay I'll I'll start with questions from the board here the select board Mr chair Mr Westley um Mr Unice could you help me understand the budget supplements please the budget supplements yeah sure so in the budget supplements you have those in front of you um I know that uh with the police in fire um I asked them to look at what was cut from their overtime and told them that we would look at putting 75% back of what was cut in overtime um so those are obviously two large ones um and then the school department has two requests $329,999 and $160,800 um I have in there $50,000 to bring the reserve fund back up where it previously was in years past um you know it should be going up not going down as our budget increases um then we have some uh expenses um that need to be increased and then salaries um we need to add uh salaries to increase the town Clark uh now that we have to hire a full-time town clerk um and then we have salaries uh for departments that are part of uh an agreement after the wage and salour plan was done in um in the contracts so um those are salary adjustments in some of the Departments so Mr units the $81,000 616 that's the 75% of the overtime correct and the police and uh the fire is 174 765 correct thank you go ahead Mr chair uh Mike can you explain to me why some of the salary expenses I don't remember any of these being cut or reduced in the original budget why are we supplementing like Town manager Treasurer Etc with additional salary um that was part of the uh adjustments in the salaries as part of the um wage and salary plan we had done the uh study and and um as part of a agreement uh negotiated with the select board and the Cena a union for one that uh there were four positions in the Cena a union the treasurer um the COA director The Building Commissioner and um the assistant uh treasur collector uh whose salaries were below the 50th percentile in the survey and um it was agreed that there'd be a adjustment to their base salary this year and next year to bring them up to the 50th percentile and then so they'll take care of that in two years and then the other request in select board is the select board um the assistant Town manager position um was below and that would be a three-year adjustment to bring that position up [Music] so why is that on the select board say that so you're saying that that's the the expense that's under select board or the town manager Town manager anything else pleas um there's several that have additional expenses as well where where are those coming from Okay so um let's see um on the um select board expense um that's for printing um we recently uh needed to go out and have purchase ARS printed and there was only $100 appropriate in the line item there wasn't enough um and then under expenses for Town manager also Printing and Conference um assessors um that is [Music] for that has I know that has to do with um the system that she uses for her evalu uh re-evaluations she needed to increase that by 3,000 um data processing um we had reduced the hours of U our consultant that we use on a four days a week for Adam um that would bring him if he was reduced to two that would bring him back to the four um because we're in the new building and there's more technology we really can use that support um and I know Recreation um their expense increase they um she forgot that this year they have to put um I know it's not I'm probably not not using the right terminology but more mulch underneath the uh swings down at the tricentennial park um so that is the major part of her expense um Cel on Aging um I know that's for um Pest Control what's that Pest Control yeah it's it's pest control and one other item and Memorial and vets were just adding um more money back into that that was cut and then uh as James told you today um the interest he just received uh information today on that for the shortterm notes one for the school and um then down further you can see for the water and he just got that about 5:00 today so that's what uh you see there the interests that we needed to add so that total on the supplements is 1,1 19,25 and we still have $226,400 anything else to yeah no it just seems like many of those expenses we should have participated been included in the original budget I'm not sure I was seeing them in the supplemental from the fall but um that's where we're at okay Mr Snider I don't have any questions okay do we have Alec on the on the zoom look at me pretending I can see that far doesn't appear so okay all right my my question is is again I think third meeting in a row um do we have the onetime expenses for the DPW director in there we do not okay is there a reason um it's just something that's going to uh take time to get established so um you know we don't have the position or place for the DBW director to go yet so it's just something we we have to work on to get that position established and we can put that in our May budget I think to be able to fund the position before we look for a position which we're lacking the funds to be able to fund an extra head um particularly my concern is um I know like as someone who's part of the charter commission when orig brought this up the desire for it was because it would be engineering had that would save us engineering dollars consolidate resources save money for the town and when I heard the presentation for the D you had in front of the I think fincom and one of the board it was said that it wouldn't be someone that would be able to save any engineering dollars probably couldn't consolidate any of the resources so I don't see the benefit anymore to doing that if we're not saving money for the town well one to answer your question I mean the voted it in so that's that's something that we're required to do I think that's I think that's how that's how you promoted it that right it was going to save money engineering cost consolidating resources yeah I personally I believe it will but at the same time it's it's something that the town voted on several years ago and it's there's still not a step in the right in that direction which you know I was trying to take with this free cash at least the very small part and get the whether we do it whether we use those funds in 6 months or a year those funds will be devoted to that particular uh High yeah which is what which is was my goal and then to eventually get that worked into the budget for next year so um that was my thought on that I guess it's a fight for another day because I want to take everybody's time on this one uh any other questions from the select board um Mr chair Mr Ron are you going to the uh School Board next to get did um what they requested for yeah are you looking at my notes no yeah I was I was going to open it up to any questions on the other items too and then the school board can go the school go through theirs so are there any Madam chair through you um Mike the expenses for the municipal building and for Highway what are those exactly you didn't mention those which one are you looking at uh the municipal building 6,000 and Highway expense 9500 what were those so um the SCH building is uh we handle all uh the trash pickup all the maintenance of all the town buildings and just reviewing that uh it just wasn't enough based on what we had approved in May so that's what that that expense is and um Highway the 9500 I'll tell you for is that that's for the repair to their sweeper that needs to be done okay and they didn't anticipate that repair need need to be done in the spring and then what about the animal control expense [Music] that's not my phone are going off tonight before gave me earlier for for that was Far [Music] um um he needed um some money for uh the some repairs to his AC system at animal control and um he didn't put enough in under expense for um maintenance and repairs of this vehicle okay um for I know this would be a next year thing but for next year it would be really helpful and save us a lot of time I think if all the breakdown of everything was just on this sheet so we had that before to look at too I think yeah you might save some awkward silences awward uh anyone else with questions on this the free cash um I have I have a question uh so looking at the Town Clerk and I know we had reduced that salary because we thought it was going to be two part-time people um so I understand bringing it back up to what it was but I don't understand why it's now a 22% increase over last year is that 60,000 um going to be used fully for the new salary is that how much of an increase we're expecting so we're we're figuring that the salary is going to be in the $90,000 range and by the time that position starts the $60,000 would cover that so was it only 30,000 that was in that was what was originally in the budget yeah she was the current the town clerk was budgeted part-time and she's been working fulltime the last couple months why would we do that if she was budgeted part time she lot she lost her assistant because the assistant left and went to another town so she was working full-time because because so the office would be covered anyone else okay I don't know if anybody on Zoom wants sir okay is there anybody on I don't see you can see it better than me is there anybody Bron I don't know if they have any questions I don't see them I'm muting so okay all right anyone on the school committee more questions there all do you would you like to go over your um the funds for your 321 292 and the 16802 sure um so we're asking for 321 29186 um to establish some TR rated positions back into our budget um with the idea of hiring these people around January 2nd um positions we're looking to bring back would be our elementary math uh and Elementary reading specialist um both those positions i s would be for $284.9 uh we would look to bring back the middle school art teacher and the Middle School music teacher both those positions also for $228,400 uh$ 4694 uh we' also like to bring back about half give or take of our academic coordinators uh those are traditionally what people kind of refer to as the department heads um school committee felt that there was some you know your core subjects um and whatnot around you know there's a whole Union thing that we got to worry about as well we're looking to bring back about half of those uh for your teacher leadership positions and that would be across all five schools uh the total there and again these people aren't new they're already in our schools they would just be getting the stiped uh so the additional money there is in total would be $ 54,1 7199 um hopefully with those that's already here we would hopefully bring those back November 1st uh and obviously run them through the fiscal year the elementary specialist again that would bring us back to the 2324 levels uh The Specialist you know are throughout all three elementary schools uh obviously LG JCS and the hay um and that would be a total of 7159 to11 uh and then we would like to put in which I think in that long run is going to save us some money is putting in um permanent building Subs um for each of the schools so we would have five permanent building Subs uh that would cost us a total of $81,900 so our total for positional uh increases if you will is 321 29186 uh the other thing we have on here is our Chapter 70 funding uh the state you know we budgeted obviously for the um for this you know fiscal year uh we budgeted for what has been traditionally the minimum of $30 per student uh obviously since the governor and the state has finalized their their budget uh they've actually increased that fee to $104 per student uh so that would give us an increase of $160,000 uh 802 so 160 802 on the Chapter 70 funding uh under the recommendation from the superintendent uh would do put about 68,500 into our new specialed out of District placements uh We've netted since budgeting season and everything else we've netted plus one student who is in our district who we have to send somewhere else uh so that would hopefully off offset that cost um and then our the rest of that money 92302 would go into our homeless Transportation which was generally you know what we put in for our budget and what we've spent over the Last 5 Years um is definitely a little different so those are those ones uh and then obviously the schematic design for the North Middle School roof I think everyone's kind of heard that roof's been a issue since um I think 1998 when we built the building um so just looking at drawing up the actual um you know plans and whatnot with Engineers is up to $50,000 we don't we hopefully don't think it will cost that much but those are the money that we are looking for I think ultimately the school committee looked at this as a um you know no one wants to use reoccurring Revenue um you know I think we have $1.3 million in turn backs um you know across different budgets or whatever um so our Our Hope would be to get some of these positions reestablished I think the school committee's big thing here is we don't have the luxury um to weart up September 1st you know we we have to roll with the budget that we got with the additional free cash year it does help us offset um you know hopefully some of these positions our goal as a committee and the five of us was to do the biggest bang for our buck um you know what that means is how can we affect the most kids possible with the programming and and teachers um you know to to try to make that a succcessful as possible so that was kind of our goal behind it um and I think you know $321,000 um isn't you know I don't think we're we're being too greedy by any means so that's where we're at thank you Nick and my question was um I know you touched on this previously at other meetings but is there any thought of of those positions that you're bringing back ensuring that they stay on I mean unless there's obviously any any issue I think as we know there's nothing um in the world that that's right besides uh death and taxes so as much as I would love to sit here and guarantee that we not going to be in this position we don't you know and I'm not going to sit here and make promises I think the school committee looking back on you know budgeting season and you know of the 29 positions and and you know kind of what we were dealing with I do think there's some appetite to kind of look at this again to say hey wait a second you know the Middle School seem to have got hit really hard um you know so I I do think you know I don't want to sit and make promises by any means but I do think you know we would try to look for all potential you know solutions to not end up cutting these positions again the good thing is on our side the academic coordinators are in a position to be cut if you will we're not cutting people um the long-term Subs um you know for building Subs that's not a reoccurring expense though it is a nice thing to have obviously um you know the only real ones that we'd really be worrying about is is the math and I mean sorry the um art and music teacher you know even even the specialist usually the specialist bumps up from another teacher and how the union contracts work um you know so I think ultimately I think we're in a kind of a good spot that I don't hopefully for cl's cutting these positions again but again we we know how everything works it's a it's a it's a changing system thank you that answer my question anyone Mr chair Mr M couple of questions um how many of these positions are new hires and how many are they people who are already there you given them M statement um I would assume obviously because with the with the specialist you're probably going to have a teacher move into the specialist role which would then we'd have to back fill with probably a new teacher um everybody so I would say technically it would be four that you would look at Art music and the two specialist in some trickle form we probably hire four new people to our list yeah for the specialist you have to we move um move around the positions that got correct you'd be back filling again an English teacher or you know whatever math teacher goes to be the math specialist and then you'd have to refill that math spot so I'm looking I think we're looking at probably about four new hires however they're new for I guess for this year but we had these positions last year it's a position that we're just trying to refill I again and do you do you forceed being able to find people to fill those positions uh Administration seems like if we kind of shoot for that January 2nd you know we we do believe we'll be able to fill them you know there's a lot of uh we still we still are seeing a CO trickle down of some of these you know student college students who have been off you know missed the semester started a little late whatever it may be finishing up their student teaching in the fall semester where it' be a perfect kind of jump into um you know come on with Norton you know for the for six months or so and then you know look for a full-time job it's kind of a win-win I mean are we going to get I think I think all teachers can kind of say you know have a lot of whole moving around you know between December and January so I don't think we're going to be looking at you know veteran teachers that would be pulling over here but Administration seems to think that we'd be able to get the pisses and tired um you know rather quickly um and on your uh Chapter 70 funding wasn't that amount that $107 a student already figured into the budget like it was no we were funded $30 per student not 104 when when we passed the budget in may we included that hund extra $104 in our calculation already how would you have done that with the state we we had no idea what that number was the state didn't CER we know all the state moves they're not moving on in May to have their budget done and in um so Chapter 70 um at the mtown meeting and what was approved by the final conference committee it it didn't change we we knew they were talking about changing it to adding $104 and we put that in our estimates at the time the original amount that we got back in April when we had to give the 1% budget it was that um one% budget request was before we got the final amount of the 104 estimate so the um Chi estimates that we received the school account received it was at still 30 so if it did change extra in the bottom line it didn't affect our overall budget number I was going to say to clarify it wasn't adding 104 it's changing from 30 to 104 cor 74 addition and when we figured out our ant anticipated state aid we put that in figure was in the calculations at the time so I guess my my question to the school board is when you made your budget did you figure on the 34 or the 107 30 30 so somewhere there's numbers up in the a it seems to me so does a disconnect between right it just I I guess I'm I'm a little confused by that I'm with you any other questions y I got just a couple more real quickly um I guess my biggest concern about this whole um proposal is that it's sustainable with the 3% budget increase for next year and if you're telling me that you think it is we're going to go I'm going to base my decision on that rather than other things and is it is it very disruptive to the schedule to be bringing in new hires in January and how does that figure into um moving teachers around in your buildings I think that's a great question uh I think one of the things that we actually looked at was bringing back nor Middle School foreign language as well um thatone watched our previous school committee meeting um and the issue with that was was the schedule and how it would affect not just the eth grade it would affect the entire middle school not to mention with the special education and moving around Paris or whatever so we actually pulled that back because it would be a significant issue with scheduling Administration was very vocal about how difficult that would be these positions aren't nearly as dis disruptive to the schedule um you know obviously anytime you add people some things are going to move around but obviously we do have we do have the holiday break and and winter break there that you know our Administration is fairly confident that this would be a pretty seamless transition and um just to add to your other question about like the sustainability of this another key point just to keep in mind is that this is a negotiation year the teacher contracts so depending on obviously how that all transpires that's also something to take into consideration in terms of sustainabil thank you okay anyone else anyone on Madam chair absolutely um Nick the permanent building Subs that would be a new thing would that be a new thing um no so we've always had them and then that was something that got we kind of cut them during the budget process um years ago so that you haven't had them for no and then if we can bring them back we've been trying to bring them back that pay through our choice funds where we pay most of our subs so we've been trying to build the subs back into the budget a little bit but the permanent building Subs to have a sub there in each school um is much more helpful um yeah my concern definitely is the sustainability um just knowing that all of your expenses go up every year especially special education Transportation those things that aren't really in your control um worrying that you know these people will just have to be laid off again is not ideal and if you're going to cut teacher salary I guess to make up for it it sounds like possibly um no that's I was saying that we have teacher we have negotiations so depending on how the contract is transpires in that negotiations and what they ask for or whatever we add we you know negotiations for their salaries for their their contract so so nor teach's Association contract is up in June 30th 2025 we are not not negotiation yet but we're pushing that way of negotiating the new round of contracts starting July that is going to have a big time factor in on what our budget is going to look like and what is sustainable moving forward because like any job in any profession your salary is your biggest line item expense you know so you know that's going to deter this would be after the the spring budget season though for the FY 26 we can get negotiations done so we can exactly so we can anticipate oh okay yeah but we just but yes corre we just don't know how and you're correct negotiations might go longer in the spring and then we're going to be playing with a projection that's going to be difficult you know but okay so I I think we do have Alec on Zoom so um Alec can you hear us can't talk unless he gets per okay we'll go back to that weas okay okay um I'm going to make sure that there's no more questions from the board and we'll go to anybody who there any ra there I have to ask a question to keep you uh satisfied Steve uh can you guys annualize those costs I know you're doing it for half a year you don't have to do it tonight obviously can you send it to us what the annualized cost are going to be for the positions that you are bringing back and what you think the impact will be also to the fixed and share expenses like are these people going to have health insurance and all the other things uh you know when you get a chance so we have an idea what that what that looks like and second uh Steve if I can address a comment that that you made about the not the board health inspector the uh Public Works director uh as you some of you know I've been running businesses since I was 25 years old some from the size of the town of Norton's budget uh I have never hired a manager that hasn't paid for himself so I would suggest of the board uh that they bring somebody on as an intrum for one year if they can't at least at minimum at minimum and I'm telling you at minimum pay for their own salary then they're not worth anything and that's that's the route I would go and that and I agree with you that the people voted for this and we just keep ignoring them and ignoring them I'm not sure I get what kind of democratic process that is but uh but that's just my two cents on that I'm sure we'll discuss it put it it in budget meetings okay Alec is there a speaker on one of these okay great did you have any questions to add I I didn't everybody asked everything that I had written down all right thank you okay anyone else um so I know again going back to sustainability I think I remember you saying that you're using more in school choice this year than what you're going to have next year is that that is that still the case do you know what the differential is how much less you're going to have next year um we don't know how much less we're going to have next year because we've just um our formula has changed not bringing as many students this year in our um elementary school so you don't you don't start doing those type of reports we do the first one in October for the winter and then we do our other inent report in spring so then we kind of get a general estimate but it's a little too ear was it 1.9 that you spent this year was that correct .9 million we're going to be we budget about two yes okay and I think you you had only brought in like 1.2 last year yes we um just rolling over and if we do save some money in the um general f budget then we would backfill some school choice sub for years as we that some Rue if I could add just one note to to talk about because I know a few folks ask questions about the teachers contract which I think is really important um we're governed by collective bargaining laws and bargaining in good faith not to speculate or hypothesize as to any potential outcomes of those negotiations so just I know that's on people's minds but we have to go through the process in good faith so it really precludes us from drawing any conclusions at this time as to what that impact would be okay anyone else with questions uh did someone have their hand up on Zoom um I do okay just go state your name yeah go ahead um so I just wanted to know if there was any way that we could like vote on what positions CU I I think that everybody in the community would like to see the art and the the language brought back um and stay back on on the roster and I'm not saying the other positions aren't necessary but I think that those are the ones that had the biggest impact on the community um so is there a way for us to vote specifically on which positions that we can bring in without all of the extras I I'll let the school committee to take that but I don't I believe that would be something they take up at one of their meetings but um is there a way for you to vote on positions no the school committee also perview isn't based on positions either um that is the superintendent job um the school committee obviously listens to our constituents uh we would definitely invite you to you know to a school committee meeting um we've heard about the Arts from you know especially from the uh music band chorus side um and again we are hopefully reestablishing the Arts with both art class in the middle school and also uh music back in the middle school so those are two positions uh just the school committee also felt foreign language was very important um and again we we did make a a push to try to get those back in however you know due to the logistics of everything and the and the you know way the schedule works out at the middle school level uh Administration felt like that would be a very you know tedious process and also nearly impossible because it would affect every single student at the middle school even though you're bringing in which would be two you know foreign language teachers uh in the eth grade so um oh and and actually the high school as well because as you move you know you open two new positions there's a potential for another teacher to move somewhere else which does open up a little bit of a um you know within the union itself people can kind of move around so it would affect a lot bigger of a of a scope um and the administration felt for you know the the six months of those two positions um you know for for the spring it wasn't the the juice wasn't worth the squeeze if you will but again we're always uh we're trying to do what is best for the community so I definitely you know urge anybody who has uh thoughts and opinions to definitely come to a school committee meeting because we'd love to hear from you okay thank you um and I'll take any questions from the audience if anybody has anything oh goad sorry one more question I didn't um watch the school committee meeting where you voted on the budget supplements did you all vote unanimously for this it was 5 Z across the board and just to add to with the World Language um due to the scheduling they also were saying that depending on um some students who require special education services and the way that their schedules go if they were to add World Language that may actually require us to hire additional staff in order to make it all work not just the world language like it was going to have a very large trickle effect outside of that so then it would have caused us to then maybe ask or you know add in more to this supplement if that all kind ofes sense schedule yes yes all right if there any other questions that good uh I would suggest that uh Nick you refer people to the meeting that you guys had on that on that subject because you guys dug into I watched the meeting into details you know how the uh how you make the the sausage behind the scenes and what it affects you know uh so I would just suggest anybody watch that meeting where they really dig into the details why it's more difficult than it sounds to bring back the fing languages which you know I I support it as well okay okay if there are any further questions I guess we can start taking some motions can I just make a comment first yeah so I mean I know we've had a lot of conversations about not spending free cash on ongoing expenses and every one of these budget supplements is an ongoing expense right I mean we're we're adding to the base we're adding to the total appropriation for all these budgets um you know budgets that were modestly increased or even decreased in the spring are now seeing 3 four 5 six 20% increases um you know I had I had made kind of a point in the spring about saying I really wanted to have the whole picture if we were going to use any supplements in in the fall I wanted to know about them up front so I can kind of factor that in um right now again it's it's throwing off all those numbers what was a 1% increase you know for school and for um for for town for the general government you know now we're looking at um numbers here now we're looking at 4.2% for Town and for 2.3% for schools so I mean that you know all of the analysis we did in the spring all of the cutbacks we did to try to be fiscally responsible um we were trying to break to wean down on wean off of free cash use in our budget last year we spent 1.9 million we only spent 1.2 in the spring and I was okay with that at that point because it was a decrease now we're going up past 1.9 so you know I'm okay with spending the 22649 that was left over from fy2 I would be okay with the town clerk because I think that's a change from what we knew in the spring we we wouldn't have anticipated that we would have gone from two halftime to one fulltime and the 160 um in the schools you know in terms of the fact that you did get um what you want was not anticipated for you uh an increase there you know those those out up to 220 those are the those would be the two that I would support um everything else is again just this big shell game that we keep playing every year I don't think it's fiscally responsible I don't think it's sustainable um and every single one of these again is going to be a one um an ongoing expense that we're spending one-time funds on so yes we have more free cash this year um I be happy to see that go into next year's budget or um stabilization or um you know in terms of capital those types of things those truly onetime expenses but I can't support and you know and it's not that any of these are not deserving it's not that I don't think this kind of kills me even to say this you know everybody knows me knows the biggest bleeding heart liberal this is not an easy thing for me to say no I don't want to give anybody money I know it's all needed and I appreciate everybody who's who's advocated for their departments to um you know to increase their budgets because that's that's your job right that that's what we expect you to do um but again it's not sustainable it's not fiscally responsible it's not what we talked about in the spring um um and if we're going to make any changes in the fall we really need to know about that in the spring and we really not need to not be getting these supplement sheets a week before the town meeting war is due to try to go through all these numbers not have any time to process this is I I can't see numbers for the first time and vote the same night that's you know and hear information and vote the same night that's not a uh you know a great way of of handling any any committee so um that's my stance on all these I don't know if we're going to take this as one big thing or if we're going to take it line by line but um you know there's only two things on here that I would support oh and actually the the short-term interest and the the fixed and shared because they're fixed you can't do anything about those right those were stuck with yeah the two fixing share the Medicare and the short-term interest so that's that's my stat go um Mike the stabilization by putting a million into that what percentage does that bring us up to I know the state recommends 3 to 5% we'll will'll be just over five that okay so we'll be over 5% so if we if we put in uh it's definitely just over five or just under cuz I thought last time we said it was just under and the hope would be that so the interest that it earns this year will be sufficient so that next year we won't have to be as aggressive funding it again maybe we won't even have to fund it next year so um with an FY 25 budget of 77 m157 764 um we should be at 3,857 18888 um with this adding this million um we would be a little above that um so we would be at 4,000 I mean 4,171 so that would give us a little cushion so depending on you know 5% is obvious ly the minimum but then next year we wouldn't have to add a lot of money we could leave it and stay at a 5% or if we have to increase it a little bit to maintain a 5% with any increase in the budget or if we wanted to put up put more into it that would be a discussion but it would get us there so next year we wouldn't have to worry about it and the state recommends 3 to 5% correct uh and then Capital what is in that account right now and then how much is this going to increase by with that [Music] 1.5 so right now in capital the budget uh the amount right now is FY 24 um it was uh 52,5 2692 and with this money we're putting in if we approve the capital plan that's recommended we'd be going into next year with um 700 a little over 700,000 in capital that and that would be approving everything that was on Capital that would go into town right okay so that would fund every Department who put in the request for this year okay um and then how much how much turn backs did we have total I think someone said it was 1.3 million in turn back is that okay so we have $1.3 million that wasn't spent from fiscal year 24 that is sp of the free cash yeah that now gets certified as free cash I'm understanding that okay so $1.3 million technically speaking though it does get certified as free cash it was already budgeted for correct okay so we have one I think to me that's the number of $1.3 million is where we can hopefully fund some of these positions whether it be the schools or you know the other positions that we talked about because that money is already in our budget we're not adding additional money to our budget though it gets certified as free cash we're not looking at a $6 million in reoccurring expenses we're looking at give or take $800,000 correct okay so that still leaves us $500,000 that was already budgeted for that is not reoccurring correct um okay that's all I got okay okay I just want to repeat something that I said at the fincom meeting about the stabilization account I I respectfully disagree with our town manager this is our savings account okay we sit there we say oh we need a minimum 5% you know to satisfy the bonding agencies well that's all well and good if we had funded our stabilization account year in and year out and year and and year you wouldn't have the situation you had last spring you you'd go into your your reserves and you said we had a bad year we had a recession something happened and we have some emergency reserves last spring would have been declared emergency and taking a million dollar we wouldn't have the layoffs we have we wouldn't be back filling what we're doing now so for me we should take this opportunity and put more into the stabilization account not just the state minimum because that should be the floor not the ceiling and I don't think anybody would be comfortable running their finances having 5% Reserve agree okay all right so I guess we'll take some motions if there's any so I guess is there an opportunity to I guess either vote in the article items individually or you know to s's point I think she has a valid point about right this it's going to continue the the issue kicking the bucket down the road as we say right and we're just shifting where the dollars are going to be spread the next cycle um so is there an opportunity to amend the budget before we vote for it or vote for each the items individually how do we go about doing that we can go how the board would like if You' like to go through I mean we're going to do our separate votes but um we can do it line by line or yeah is that you PR to and we have to do a roll call vote I know for that's okay Mr chair Mr mer we I'm sorry to interrupt but we can do if there's a few that we all agree on that we should we're going to go for it you can do them all one motion that'll skip the line by line but yeah don't know we on it yet [Music] go ahead Mr M so if uh both boards are going to have to vote individually anyways so um I don't know if it how big a difference it makes if we go line by line and then you go line by line I I guess I don't understand the uh if we just say yes on number four we're we're going to support number four and then the uh finance committee can decide if they support each line as it goes down um I don't think it does either board any good for us to go down one line and then what if we disagree on a line that we agree on one line and they disagree on it how is that I'm not sure how that would it would extend the meeting equ but that's okay Mr CH I'd like to make a motion that we uh that the select board uh supports article number four tell me as as written as written is there a second okay I'll second Alex second okay um uh we'll go down the line Alec yes Denise no Kevin no Roger yes and N yes [Applause] okay want to know if you if you want to take a vote or you want to wait till you question I have a question about process so um Mike this might be a question for you Mike um so for the article the fincom will recommend an amount for Article 4 and that will be in the motion at town meeting yeah so the amount that we recommend I can yes so the mo um when you do make it it would be uh [Music] 226,000 290 did that change or is that that's the updated number um that' be transferred from the FY 25 Water Enterprise operating budget and and um then the balance would be free cash right now based on what submitted is 92,5 12058 okay just to clarify that the 2029 is a line item transfer within the water Enterprise budget that's not a that's not a supplement we're just allowing them to use that money to money that was already appropriated at the mtown mean for General expenses to be used to pay uh interest on on a notebook I have ation calculated sorry it's okay no it's okay does anybody want to move it as it as written uh I'll make a motion to move it as written second this is a second all right so um Zach yes PA no dce no uh Paul yes Brandon yes um I'm a no so it's three and three Tai is a loss right is it Tai a loss okay do you want to make a different motion every I I would support that Madam chair could I make a motion sure that we transfer 33935 as budget supplements rais an appr free cash from free cash and raison appropriate 22649 and transfer within the water operating budget $229 motion do I have a second second all right Zach no Paul yes Trace yes Paul no Brandon no and I'm a yes so we're tied again right yes so we don't have anything [Music] to okay so in that case it will be moved to figure that out okay mve anybody on the floor yeah anybody on the floor can move then so that just me on what be moving it okay [Music] do we want to vote on the the stabilization and the and the capital [Music] funding want to uh I'll just go over the cap the capital so my recommendation for capital is 1,500,000 uh the current balance in in capital is $327,500 c um so adding the 1.5 million to the current balance would result in the total of 1,827 62560 and if we fund um the capital as uh recommended we would be uh going to next year with a little over $700,000 in uh capital are into May any questions I know we already Mr Mar did the uh Capital committee vote on those um the capital committee did vote um I I can tell you what they have voted on it was last night they are going to meet again because um there was uh a mistake in uh one of the items for the fire department so um Capital voted um I'll read all all the items to you uh they voted uh $10,000 to upgrade um the C system software um in the assessor's office uh they voted data processing um they voted uh $110,000 for replacement of end life equipment and um $ 36,7 um to upgrade the town website police line cruises uh 200,000 was approved and year have 3 of five on the taser replacement program 23,000 um the fire department um f 450,000 um in air pack replacement and that'll be coming out of ambulance um 649,000 for a tower truck and a fire engine uh this is a bulk parchas uh that will save them money by buying both at the same time in this payment year one of five coming out of ambulance would be 649,000 station rehab repairs coming out of ambulance 300,000 and dive water rescue equipment 25 um Emergency Management 65,000 um for a Chevrolet 2500 uh pickup truck and for the nor Public Schools for technology displays um least two own in the not Middle School it's year two of that program um water heaters at the Norton High School $132,100 and purchase of a athletic multi-purpose BS 70,000 um the highway department 149,00 this is for 2024 Peterbilt J hook in can conversion it's year two of five and um a trackless multi-purpose track a year 105 uh 250,000 and for water and sore 20,000 uh this is being added to an amount already appropriated I believe for Chevy Silverado 4x4 cab and Chassis and that would come out of water receipts so the total um coming out of capital uh $987,000 what's that number what 1, 14248 yeah that's still um that's what has to go back um to Capital to be voted um their meeting next [Applause] Tuesday okay Denise um mik can you explain why the um Emergency Management Department request was for 5879 for a pickup truck and you and Capital Improvements committee approved 65,000 which is $6,200 5 5 sorry $625 over the ask Mr chairman I made that motion to n the reason being the water department tried to buy a truck about the same amount they couldn't get so the request was put in so the water department came back and asked for more money delaying another 6 months so I made the request um and I spoke to chief who's going to order the truck uh so they wouldn't have enough money to buy a truck because it's hard to come by for that uh uh for that kind of money and any any money that's in between would be returned back to free cash thank you for clarifying yeah okay any other questions have a motion I don't have I have a question um Mr unit is it possible that we instead of putting 1.5 million in the capital and 1 million in the stabilization that um we equalize those even but uh 1,250,000 in capital and 1,250,000 in to stabilization just to try to put more into uh our stabilization account I can answer that that that's possible with a motion yeah Mr chair Mr M I make a motion [Music] that we put $1,250,000 into our Capital account um for hang on what's this uh ring number seven article 7 article 7 make a motion that article 7 read 125 $1,250,000 into the capital Improvement funding there a second second okay motion on second Alex yes Denise no Kevin no Roger yes and I yes okay you're welcome to vote on two people we're just doing Capital right now right yeah this is just uh capital a motion I I I I'm going to disagree with Mr M and I would make a motion to move 1.5 million into the into the uh uh stabilization account Capital oh we talking capital capital okay then I'll stick with the 1.25 1.25 yes same same motion have a second second right Zach yes Paul no Trace yes Paul yes Brandon yes and I am a yes so that 1.5 or 1.25 1.25 I'll make the next motion I was a little ahead of myself okay um was then com with count uh 51 51 okay I guess we we can vote on stabilization since we're talking about that that's the last one 19 I believe oh okay we're jumping all over this I apologize Mr chair Mr meron I make a motion that uh we put $1.25 million into the stabilization um article number 19 okay is there a second second motion a second Alec yes Denise I apologize this is Article 19 19 yeah I thought they would be together but they're not that's the are we changing this from it 1.5 and we changing it to 1.25 that was it yes it's 1 million and um the mo was for 1.25 so to put more into stabilization the savings okay was that was was originally presented no what was presented was 1 million okay um and where's the ex25 coming from from free cash from what was it's all coming from free cash but the the uh motion is reduced what I recommended going to cash Capital yeah we reduce Capital by the 250,000 so that's where that would be coming from 1.25 to um stabilization is that officially yes yes sorry sorin yes yes and I'm a yes all right we agree all right let's see if you he the same I'll make a motion to move 1.5 million from free cash stat 1.2 I made ation 1.5 million for the third time here second all right have motion a second Zach yes Paula yes Trace yes Paul is this 1.5 Zack yes that's a yes Brandon yes all right and I am a yes as well so 60 1.56 well the fin will make a pass okay um is is that it for the free cash did I miss anything here we've already voted on opab right previously okay to to I know I promised the school committee to get out of here early but I I'm sorry it's not a half day tonight guys um just day after school so I guess I guess the next topic just like I said to to help them get out of here sooner is the um the zoning bylaw the greatwoods over distri I know we have Paul here if he's ready he's not listening to me that's okay I am just kidding I'm just kiding very short presentation sheot up so this this presentation I I know has been presented to both of our committees before but I think the planning board met what on Tuesday and and paired it down he did yes so I I'll just get right to it but it is on Zoom so uh people on Zoom can see it so yeah hi everyone I'm I'm Paul be jeppi I'm the director of planning and economic development and as the chair mentioned the planning board um did meet on Tuesday uh to discuss uh looking at the selected Parcels that this would be applied to and if you'll recall at both finance committee and select board we we had promised to do that um and they did and so um you'll recall that there were a number of parcels that were originally uh uh selected to have this overlay District applied but after they met and had a discussion and looking at some um analysis provided by our consultant which was to serid they U selected just one parcel and that was the the uh the PGA Charities parcel located at one one arold Palmer Boulevard um part of the reason they were looking at that was to try to bring that unit count capacity uh requirement that that the state looks at to try to bring it closer to the uh the minimum that Norton has to achieve and so by looking at this one parcel um the the state said at Norton the minimum has to be the number of units to be generated by this was 750 minutes and I just want to just there say that is a just a number it it doesn't represent anything in reality it doesn't represent the fact that there are wetlands or other restrictions that limit numbers that that reduced development but what they did was they they decided to go with this one parcel because it on itself can meet the requirements uh of the state and so by doing so they had brought the number down at one point it was 1,700 units and now with this one we'd calculate based on what the state is looking at at the 1093 units but again it's not going to be that much and it won't be built at one time if at all and so uh that's into my presentation but thank you Paul I appreciate it I know you've said this a million times so um I I know one concern I think Zach was the impact on the schools which is why I wanted to make sure you were here for this um does anyone on the school committee have concerns or questions can we just ask for clarification the state is requiring 75ers so the state is requiring that we designate uh part of town they're doing this for let's say Eastern Massachusetts that we require multifam by right um right now our zoning bylaw says if you want to do three or more units it triggers a special permit which which is a the highest threshold for approval that the planning board will issue but what the state says um we need to designate at least 50 acres at 15 units an acre where you cannot trigger a special permit this is just part of their initiative to try to deal with the housing crisis that we're seeing housing costs and so forth the thought that try to promote more uh housing construction to get the inventory up and you know meet the demand so what they said was real simple thing that doesn't become simple but they said Norton based on your designation you need to designate 50 acres minimum at 15 units an acre minimum and that's where 750 comes up um we tried to slice and dice a parcel to get there it didn't work and and because of other factors again like Wetlands um the board just felt that it was just made it was just easier and cleaner to just designate this one so again it doesn't mean we have to build it we don't have to do anything a property owner doesn't have to build it they don't have to sell it we don't have to put infrastructure to help a developer make it happen but we would be uh putting giving that property a right that it doesn't have now that property is own commercial which does not allow residential so it could if this gets approved all right and then worst case scenario that somebody comes in right after we approve this and they develop 1,000 units which is highly unlikely in my opinion but um go ahead and then there's a lot of talk around this and I think getting the facts have been a little tricky here um from the planning board standpoint what are the recommending we do with this land well they were Rec recommend that this one parcel be the place where we place it it was we had more Parcels originally but it is now shrunk to this one but if even from the planning board's perspective if it builds as commercial which is what it already is that's fine if they do it under this new zoning District that's fine but again the so the the property owner could build commercial they could if this gets approved to residential board doesn't have an interest as long as they're building something that's compliant with our bylaw okay so how many hypothetically Builder comes in wants to turn it all residential how many units could fit there and be still within State guideline from overlay well unfortunately I we don't know that there's there would be a lot of analytical work that we weren't scoped we didn't have budget to do for this exercise I don't know but I'm confident that the th093 can't happen and and you know simply because the more you build let's say you you know every new residential unit you build that's an additional parking space which then becomes a larger storm water pond so there are things that eventually cap it so you know I I couldn't give you an estimate and I don't even want to give a a number because it'd be completely made up but it's you know it's somewhere something less than 1,093 units cuz again that that's just literally stacking units on top of the whole parcel regardless of like in this case this one parcel has we estimate about 14 acres of wetlands which we don't allow to be built Conservation Commission doesn't and in fact there's a 25 ft uh no build buffer zone around the wetlands that comes off of it and so you know is it still big parcel yes I mean I think from a school standpoint uh I mean 750 units it's hard to take a guess of how many school AG children are moving in there without actually knowing what's going on um I mean if you kind of look at the residents in town and how many kids we have in school you can kind of take it around give or take 30% obviously with this land and probably being geared one to multifamilies and probably I would think that younger generation because because you're probably you know taking the train into Boston and doing whatever um I mean I think our biggest concern is is how many students that's going to draw and what is that collateral damage if you will going to do to our budget when you're funding these kids at $19,000 per pupil which is our current expenditures you know so from bringing in let's call it give or take 300 kids times 19,000 that's the number that we're going to be looking at uh from a school standpoint anybody else um Dr No said today that there's just so many unknowns with this project we just still don't even know um how many students be in new noron links um 274 East Main um we only have 68 students there um I think we always anticipated more there so um she like at this time it's really hard to tell a given an estimate so my comment on that too is is um and I think I mentioned this at the last meeting one um there's already sewer there correct correct yeah so one I mean that's that's rare in our town having access to sewers so using that area to me uh is is a is an automatic no um but also there's no rules against putting this overlay over pre-existing buildings and uh and houses or any other area that and that would that would actually stem the building of 750 brain UNS so that was that was another issue but we are required by theate to have this overlay at some point chair if I may address it I've asked state of email um the person who's in overseeing this initiative that very question our consultant was indicating to us that they would it was their when they've gone through training with the state on this that that was something they were taking a hard look at um but I I want to make sure you know we've done our due diligence hear from them one other thing I just want to make clear too is that we've also written this that would we would allow a miuse building so um could they build all residential absolutely but could they do first floor retail with housing above it they could do that too all right thank you Paul any any further questions folks this is just for my own doing um what is the state helping with any Aid to this is there any money that's being allocated to this project um they they provided funding to help with Consulting Services um the flip side of that question is is if we're not compliant then there are U funds that they Grant funds that they will we will not be eligible for although that's be the amount or the the types of Grants now is subject to a lawsuit with another municipality but there are grants that would be ineligible but right now the state is taking the they're interpreting this as a whole lot of Grants you will be you know it'll be held against us if we find this not in compliance so we've been you know the board worked very hard to come up with an approach that balanced you know being compliant with trying to fit this in where they felt that was um best you know the best location in Norton not the only you know I want to make that clear there's other sites that could have been but there was a lot of there was a pretty steep um site analysis that our consultant helped us and this was one that showed up as a you know good location for it but not the only one so Ju Just to end that ni it's it's not a project yet it's just an overlay so I mean but it's it could potentially be and it would be quicker in my opinion if it was on this land that they're presenting because it's just empty land um and have we done any analysis in terms of and Dios possible but do we have some typee of rough number of how much tax revenue would be brought in no we did not our consultant did not um again it it it's this is we don't have it and and for the same reason I can't tell you what could be built there because you know in development it's just there's so many variables and so many factors and different things that that could affect this so um you know one thing I and Mike James correct me but um when we look at a 274 East Main that's what our second largest tax revenue generator at 188 units so um you know again will this ever get to 188 units I don't I don't know all right anyone else Mr chair Mr mer um more of a a statement than a question but um Paul has known that uh I'm I've been U opposed to this project in this spot since the first I heard of it um I think that not taking into account a total of 750 minimum new units in town uh doesn't disservice to our town using the sewer on that part of the town does it disserve to the town and we could have overlaid this over existing units where the number the gross number would have been much lower than the total of the 750 or whatever number fits on the properties um and the fact that it could have been spread out all over town we only needed to have 25 acres in one spot and we could have had five acre Parcels on in other parts of town to put it on um so for me this is going to absolutely be a no um I understand there will be ramification from it from the state um but I'm not a fan of doing things under the heavy hand of uh somebody telling us that we have to do something that's not in the best interest of our town just to add a Qui point to that from a district standpoint by put put all 50 acres on that side of town right now which would be JCS district is going to make sure all of those kids are currently would be going to JCS where if we spread them out we would be a to spread out you know some kids go to LG these kids go here you know and then we'd be able to spread them out across the schools a little bit better as well all right um is there any other questions from the boards otherwise I'll get going on um M chair through you Paul um could you kind of spell out what the scenario would look like if this failed at our fall town meeting like would we have to have a special town meeting before the end of the year or we just kind of like wait it out and see what happens what with the state so what happens is um just come December 31st if we're not if we haven't adopted it we will be not compliant um we're looking into that because this is a lot more complicated than a typical rezoning because the the the state requires a lot of computations and using geographic information systems um and at this point to our consultant the the money is all spent um it'll be tough to get anything done you know between October 21st and it it I'm not saying it's impossible it's I I'm trying to get clarification what would need to be done in order to if if this were to not pass and um I I just don't know it'll be it'll be a tight squeeze to try to get it in before the end of the year yeah I mean it's just sounding like from a few people who spoke that doesn't sound like they're necessarily opposed to this or just maybe opposed to where it is am I hearing that right um that's that's correct for me at least yeah but it sounds like we'd have a very short period of time for you to rework new overlay maps have special another special town meeting and then before the end of the year um and then there's noticing requirements and right you know which I mean there's a lot of things it's not it's you know it's never simple but this is uh much more complicated than than it I haven't done it and it may it it might end up being something we have to do in house so we have to look at but I'm trying to how long have you been working on this plan for like in your public meetings well this was an Earnest going on since the fall of last year so from from my understanding the first um the first MTH that we saw was 1,700 plus units or something like that which I think everybody agreed was was exorbitant uh and well over what the state required um and and like Paul said you have to notice all of those properties if you're going to put the overlay on them I know at their last meeting um I think it was Rob Welsh presented a whole bunch of different options all around town and those as as though they are great I think a lot of them are great we couldn't use them for this town meeting because you have to notice those owners too um and I do know I think I mentioned this at the last meeting Foxboro um decline there or the they voted it down at town meeting and I do know that they're going to vote it down again in November I believe that's what I've been told so we're not going to be the only city if that happens and and I think again that's my opinion open to anybody else Mr chair Mr Marcy um I just want to be clear that I don't think we should be not compliance with the state and what they want I just don't think that this is the best spot for what's going on in our town right now Mr chair Mr um for you um did the planning board look at um spreading the parcels out throughout town and if so what was the result of that anoun um I'm not aware if they were looking at spreading I think they were trying to be as contiguous as possible they did look at if you recall the presentation they actually looked at the entire town to try to start determining where would be the best areas to find it but I'm not aware that they were ever discussing since I've been here there was never a discussion of them um splitting it up oh then make sorry apologize Paul one last question I know Kev wasn't last time but if I remember from the last conversation at the last meeting there a certain percentage of it that has to be continuous is that correct right it it minimum one of them has to be 50 acres and there's other other the minimum was 25 was one of them has to be 25 well theal has to be no the largest has to be 50 I believe 50% I think but they have criter that we would have to you know what they don't want is it they don't want it chopped up be 50 I apologize for interrupting the smallest had to be 50 acres right and then the the one parcel couldn't be smaller than 50% of that so it have to be 25 acres maybe you're right you may be right on that um you know I since they never looked at it that wasn't something they didn't look at it that way well I they may have before I arrived but by the time I was was here they were honed in on doing a one District but you can do subdistricts okay uh and Nick have a question did you just CL clarify if we're not in compliance with the state come January 1st the penalties that the town would receive is we wouldn't be able to apply and receive any grants based on what is in that whatever grants that the NBTA is putting out they specified which grants gotcha we know how much money we've made off those grants Over The Last 5 Years uh I can tell you since 2018 we've made 45 million off of those grants and at our last meeting we discussed that too and 3 and A5 million of that is what's being used towards the Elm Street project so right yeah um okay there's not any other questions I know the audience oh who is it Al oh mad no call sorry go ahead Paul yeah I just had a question though um I thought there was some real um um misunderstandings as far as what grants are actually covered by the law and what are just some heavy-handed after the fact threats Paul and I don't know if you could clarify that because I didn't think the grants that were actually enumerated in the law were going to affect the town of not and one iota so there are four that are spelled out specifically in Mass General law Mass works which is what we received the $3.5 million from uh that was the first time we've ever received it there's a new grant called Housing Works which is similar to mass works except it's available to for promoting housing uh there's the housing Choice Grant which we've not applied for uh and then there's the local Capital fund which we haven't but those are Absol those are definitely in the statute or in the m General law and then there's about 14 or 15 others that are listed as in the guidelines that the state produced which they say that we will be looking at you any of you towns for these Grant at these grants if you aren't complying so what does that mean you know it probably means that we get a negative Mark I don't know that that necessarily means we can't apply for those but that these a very competitive grants in a mark like that could be could be tough for us to overcome okay thank you Paul a follow up Madam chair go ahead Paul um if we end up passing the verbiage which was one article at the town meeting but we just not set on the location of the mapping um I find it hard to believe that the state wouldn't be lenient in giving us uh preve until say the spring tole meeting to finalize the mapping to get it right um my what I've been observing but obviously not obviously we're not there but they're they're playing pretty tough on this um there's a the deadline says December 31st of this year I think they will my guess is they will interpret that that come January 1st 2025 you're not compliance you know until until you've you know adopted a bylaw that they end up reviewing and saying you're fine thank you Paul you the grants uh all one thing but compared to the damage that this could do to our community millions of dollars a year to our school system to our water department to our Public Safety it's it's peenuts to even be considering the grants as to the big picture of this whole thing you I appreciate all the work you've done Paul and in the planning board but from the outside looking in and from 10,000 ft in the meetings I have watched it seems to me that and I said say this to you at the at the uh Finance meeting we should have been open up our a planning tool box and putting up every obstacle we could even the chairman of of the planning board said I wouldn't touch us with the 10ft pole and from looking from 10,000 ft looking at it looks to me like we're rolling out the red carpet with the location that's being picked and for that reason I don't care what anybody votes here my crystal Ball's broken but this is Dead on Arrival at town meeting you know if I were if I were a betting man so I mean I think put everything aside regroup is my opinion in the spring and bring it to the Springtown meeting I don't think the state's going to do anything uh the damage the damage and far worse that can be done to the to the school system system into our community that any of these grants have to offer okay I know a couple a couple people in the audience wanted to speak so um I guess I'll Bob first and then we'll go down the line Bob kampbell 51 Pine Street uh I have i' obviously had some great concerns about this Paul and I talked a couple months ago about this uh this project and some of my concerns about it at that point I'm pleased to see that the planning board is just trying to narrow it down to a certain area of Mansfield Avenue um and in Paul's defense he hasn't been here very long he was here before but he came back so he hasn't really been involved as much and I appreciate all the time that the planning board has put into this I really do um my concern is this and there's a couple histories here that I I can go over first and foremost the location and I think we've all agree that the location is probably questionable in the LA that I've become very aware of after reaching it 500 times it does not require us to have town surage or town water but yet we're giving it to these future potential developers as an opportunity to use that and by doing so we're creating a couple of problems creating a density issue uh because if you have to to build a Title 5 system after you build these three story structures it's going to take up a lot more land in order to do that and by allowing uh Municipal storage to be uh utilized it actually giv gives them an opportunity to develop a lot more wind a lot more houses in a much smaller space um Theo Palmer Boulevard um adjustment I think is a very good idea but on the other hand if you look at the recent um development on Len Street and the impact has had on that tax base including some of the money by the way this free cash came up with this year under the new growth you realize that the TPC is probably one of the last great places we'll have to put any kind of industrial purposes to use to create a increase that tax Bas it's basically we designed for it um if we give this pule up we give away all the potential possibilities of this high impact um tax base that we can have in the future that we won't have it mentions commercial in the law commercial is nothing more than a beauty shop convenience store anything of that sort which could be put on the first first floor of the building it doesn't mention any Industrial so by giving up this possible land we giving up all the industrial land we have left in town in my opinion that we can utilize in the future M the street was perfect because it off 1995 and had much of an impact on the traffic situation in the town same can apply we man EV if we give it up after all the years since 1987 we've been fighting to put sewage in town we're giving up one of our most preo locations to do so and it just doesn't make sense if we can put it on Taunton Avenue or old near near Old Colony on those ends of town which by the way is the only part of town we have a bus that runs through we have no buses going down man AV anymore we tried to do the satate parking areas a few years ago they didn't work with people didn't want to park their car get into a bus and get into a train the NTA is thrwing this thing down our throat we are too far outside of the business Boston Proper for them in my opinion to be forcing this type of zoning on a town there really doesn't really need it at this time we don't have that ability to to make it work my other concern by the way my final concern on that is brown Water you think we are brown water now wait and see what happens when you start adding 750 units of hous our acfer is only designed to pour so much water to our we house the more housing we build the more water we use the further out the aquifer goes the more magnesium and and iron we're ping into the system so we had 750 on top of what we're already building say in my neighborhood on Pine Street or me all homes down the street you know you keep adding all these houses it's going to become a problem as most of you may know if you know me and I've been involved for a few years 40 BS have always been one of my biggest most vocal points that I can uh I can imagine there are good ones the 40b behind the McDonald's surprisingly I did vote for that I approved of that I thought that was a m best use for that piece of property the problem with 40 BS is all through this new bylaw by the way it doesn't require us to have them but they have a right there is a right and a use to be able to be able to build 40 bees if you don't know what a foodb is it's really designed to circumvent all our BW and it just pretty much puts us out the pasture we have no control over it we have no say we can appeal it we can fight it in court it's going to come and it's going to happen it's just not going to go away the 40b presently built on um Norton it's called nor links it's the one behind right beside McDonald's just you give me an idea I call over the idea to find out about them I don't know what you guys pay for your mortgages but here we go you want to run a studio start at 2160 $2,160 this is an affordable project now keep this in mind if you want one bedroom you're starting at $2,500 two bedroom you're starting at $3,200 if you have enough kids you need three-bedroom house that starts at 42 $ 4265 a month which property is this bought this is the new 40 B behind McDonald's nextt mcdonal okay nor Wings 4265 by the way is $ 51,1 180 a year in rent imagine imagine that that possibility many income level based on what we do here in noron is based on the city of Boston it's not Providence but the average count U person makes roughly $91,000 a year it's not taunting at 72782 91 378 in adoro it's none of those they use that medium income that Boston medium income to determine how much our rent are going to be that's why you're hearing these extravagant extraordinary rents which are out of our minds to us but if you live in the city of Boston you think how that's a hell a buy I me that's a great deal so medium income in Boston is $133,200 that's based on a 5year estimate that was present res done recently the mileage from the exin center to the train station in Mansfield it's 4.5 miles nobody's going to walk it in fact I've never seen anyone walking from the Train station to go to the extrity I don't think I've ever seen that happen if you go from the from the extrity to ad 7.9 Mars it just doesn't make sense that the state is forcing this type of zoning down on us it doesn't make sense to me at the same time I respect the fact that they have to comply with the law we've got to come up with a way to make this all happen and how we're going to do that I suppose is to go back and take another look at how we're how we're how we're going to uh designate certain Poes of land in town and again I'm going to use a scenario that on the Taunton lne on Taunton Avenue Ed E Street in that area there's a very large fossil live fil wind out there not so much on the on the Old Colony side but there are people there are places in town that we can do that 40b is a scary scary opportunity for the these developers to come in and circumvent and by the way it's not about affordable housing to them it's about making money they're contractors the developer they're coming in to make money they're not coming in before some small schmock up the street needs needs a place to live that's not how it works it's to make money and they get all kinds of incentives to make it happen it does not allow senior housing which is something in my mind if you want to create the ability to create some kind of housing that people firsttime buyers can come and and go and and buy what you do is you create affordable senior housing that us old folk can move out go into one of those and sell a home and then you can come in you can renovate it from when I built it whenever I built it you can take out my heill refrigerator my green stove and you can and you can make it your own but you can't do that under these guidelines they will allow Senor seniors to live there but you can't allow senior housing there's a requirement is called a density bonus which is really scary that still one they fall yes pay attention to that one the density bonus allows them an extra 10 ft so now we're not three stories high we're four stories high that's a real problem and by the way I'm not quite clear what happened on on the one over on the Manel D but that's four stories high even though they they they claim it to be three stories it's four stories so I'm not sure what that's all about but if you take that scenario based on our present uh limitation I think we're 35 ft height 35 ft the maximum we can go is 35 ft in the this proposed District in in no in in our FR Z some of them can go 40 okay 35 40 ft so let's make it 50 55 ft you know it's just insane that but you know we would allow that to happen and even though the article hits on certain key items it doesn't hit on the whole whole whole whole law and you really need to read the law because it refers to the law in the zoning change that we're trying to make here but it doesn't tell you what it is so be very careful and as far as the um grants that we're talking about hey Paul mentioned we just have one now on the on the table for $3.5 million we haven't used most of those so they throw these grants out they make it sound like they're going to take away our chapter 90 funds or a Chapter 70 funds that's not the case most of these grants have to do Brownstone buildings or old old infrastructure that has to be has to be taken and maintained probably the only good case scenario we have there would be the El Street read boten property which is probably could fall under a brownstone we might be able to get a few bucks when govern it to take it down but that's about it so I'm opposed to this I can't I can't support it in its present State I think we need to do some more work and I think we need to consider going back not to a special town meeting because they're not going to have time to do it to do this thing and do it right and really make sure we understand it I would encourage you to come back in the spring with a with a complete understanding about what it's all about and must make sure something we do it and we do it right because once this thing is pass for we're in trouble thank you Mr Kimbell do we have we had anyone else in the audience want to speak go hello my name is valal I live at 50 manfeld Avenue which is the street that this is being proposed on one thing that I want to note is that they're suing Milton if you hadn't noticed for not being in compliance with this law so Foxboro is trying to not do it we might try to not do it the state is not messing around with this they're already pursuing legislation against Milton it's been all over the news when we have been talking I'm on a street that has already had sewer proposed to be added for an apartment building which most apartment buildings are probably going to want to add we had a huge amount of resistance to the idea of running it down 140 because even though we weren't going to be in the situation that 47 Elm Street and all the Elm Street people would be in people didn't want to tie in they didn't want to be forced to tie in they didn't want to feel like they had to tie in even though that project I believe was covered by the developer not the town paying for it auts don't get excited about having their roads ripped up and having to be forced to be on sewer so this whole idea that we can just split it up and put it everywhere we'll put a little parcel over here and a parcel over there then every one of these meetings turns into the abutters to all of those properties showing up and saying I don't want that in my neighborhood because it's what happened on my street that's what's happening with Elm Street and no one's going to build an apartment building to fit all of this without having sewer on it so I understand that this is a really great industrial parcel but it also fits us into being able to comply without having 75 meetings of all the abutters from every single parcel coming in and saying I don't want that near me well I don't want that scary 40b near me also anywhere that you were talking about for me f Avenue here I don't know if anyone's heard of a bicycle but an awful lot of people do bicycle as someone who used to commute into Boston every day from Mansfield and not a lot of people bicycle four miles is not a bad bicycle ride Taunton Avenue is on the other side of town from the train station but a Four Mile bike ride for Mansfield da is actually not that bad so I don't think we can write it off as well no one's going to take the train anyway especially because I know a lot of people from Norton who right now do go to Mansfield to take the train I wouldn't really want to but I'm lucky and can work from home and I'm curious about the numbers on this idea of 40b so my rent in 2010 in the center of Mansfield for a little tiny 2bedroom was like $850 so almost 1,000 a month 14 years ago Norton lyx isn't affordable overall 40b does not work such that every sing s Le unit in that building now has to be affordable so a one bath a studio one bath is 2100 a one bath is 2350 that's not the affordable the affordable for a studio was $650 the affordable for a 1bedroom was 1,800 so acting like they don't affordable doesn't matter or they're not actually going to do it the statue requires 20 to 25% has to be affordable so I understand that it sounds like oh well this won't even be that affordable in the end and all of that and it's scary and I know everyone's always scared of 40b cuz I grew up in West Bridgewater as I keep saying but the I don't know if we are ready for the reality in this town of deciding to vote this down for what I personally would consider scare mongering which I know nobody in Norton likes I'm not sure we're ready though to get sued which we're already seeing happening and I don't think you can call that scare mongering because it's on the news every day that Milton's getting sued thank you thank you B all right we have one more from the audience and then we can take some motions Mark SW 14 La Lane thank you Val but um Milton's already going to the Supreme Judicial Court so it's it's at a higher level than just um you know it's it's at a high level already so we'll see what happens when the Supreme Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court comes through and see what they have to say but again I'll summarize real quick what Bob just said to back this up it's not scare scare mandering or anything like that it's basically we've got the best Prime Property you know it it's got the sewer going right there it's a beautiful property if you don't know where it is it's going up the hill at um going to the TPC and it's just great property um we can split the property right right the serpent said we can split the property so let's have everything directed to the chair oh I'm sorry through the chair can I ask the Ser yeah the property can't be split can't be split so we could right now that we're at 1,00 we could skinny it down to 750 I know you're going to get into water and things like that but we we've got a plan out there that's going to be presented that's telling everybody as a town meeting it's going to be 1100 um units so that was going to be what somebody said 300 students I'm looking at 500 something like that you put that all together and actually the 300 that you said Nick sorry that's another $6 million that number pops up again you know that's what it's going to cost at $188,000 a a student Brown water if you don't like your brown Water obviously nobody knows nobody wants it they're going to the town is going to have to open up the wells that they have right now well number one up on Pine Street which is pumping Brown water now they're going to have to increase it to meet the daily capacity so if you think you're going to have brown water now wait till you wait till later on again School enrollment 300 500 pick a number they're all going to go to what the uh salones as you said no I think we're going have to build a new school just for this project so the SK laundering no this is just reality of it the traffic along 140 going into Mansfield t uh field da and then down at the end the other end down by the church at the at the Town common you think it's all backed up on mfield da going right there 12 123 140 because not everyone's going to go out of that road and go left to go to Manfield they are going to go to the right and back up that property right there or back out that intersection um so again you got 7,000 households this is going to add another thousand you know it's another 15% overnight end if you give it to them an overlay like that apartments are very popular right now people can't afford a single unit house that's now OU $400,000 okay these things are you know more like $600,000 uh in Norton things like that you know people can't afford that they're going to go to the apartments these things are being put up because the Millennials the Gen Z they can't afford a house they're going to have to rent and that's what they want those units that are above that towering above McDonald's those are going to be filled up right away at either $2,000 plus or $4,000 uh a month or 1,600 if they're if they're U 40 BS they're going to be they're going to be used they're going to be filled up right away and if I can get this to say um and then the losing the funding we don't use that funding I mean we we we did on one of these grants but the other ones they're they're Mickey Mouse money grants that shouldn't we they're Paper Tigers as far as what they the state is going to sue us for or whatever or stop us from having they're paper titles the way I look at it I'm not worried about the the planning grants they're small they're they're very limited and they're small amount of money so right now it's it's a definite vote no it's Dead on Arrival at the Town Meeting thank you thank you Mr s so with all that being said Do we have any Motions we' like to entertain I me a motion to approve article 17 zoning map Amendment amend the zoning map to add adding the Great Woods overlay District okay then that's on the map correct oh sorry article 16 should do first ready that's either way we'll do that for us I guess okay so you you saying 16 the amendment uh all right so let me I make motion I just want to make sure everybody's clear I'll make a motion to approve the uh article 16 zoning bylaw Amendment creating zoning bylaw article 23 Great Woods overlay District amendment to comply with General uh General law 40a section 3A second okay motion on a second Alec if you're still there yes no okay that was a question Denise yes but no Okay Kevin yes Rogers no and I'm a no okay and you've already voted on that one correct Madam chair yes I'd like to make a motion to reconsider article 16 motion to reconsider do I have a second second all right Zach this is we're voting to reconsider so yes paa yes Trace yes Paul yes Brandon yes and I yes right Madam chair yes motion to approve article 16 as presented all right second KAC no Paula yes Trace yes Paul no Brandon no and I am a yes so 3 three 3 three okay I will to entertain another motion for article 17 or any and all of them if you'd like to perfectly fine with I'll make a motion to approve article 17 zoning map Amendment amend the zoning map to by adding the greatwoods over District second okay motion a second Alec no no Denise yes Kevin yes Roger no and I N article 17 yes madame chair motion to approve article 17 as presented second all right motion second Zach no Paula yes Trace yes Paul no Brandon Noam yes we three again it's got to be some kind of record really no okay um I guess we can move on we can go down the line now mik oh yeah we yeah they've been waiting patiently so Mr chair so first do the school committee want to stay or you can you're welcome I know you're having so much fun take me with you just because you'll have to close your meeting so if you want to close it you can close it uh I'm going to close our October 10th school committee joint meeting with the Finn uh Finn common select board all those in favor a motion I don't know we're closed thank you for joining us guys we appreciate it thank you okay um so we have we're still going to skip around here we're going to talk about the demolition of the of the town uh of the Town Hall I know Pati L on [Music] 6:00 so do you do you m un do you want to speak to this first and then come 12 yeah I'm sorry article 12 um it's article 11 and [Music] 12 we're in the home stretch folks so the first article um will repurpose funds that were previously approved for various stages of the project and um move those into the project so article 10 we have um article 12 of the annual town meeting of 2016 that was first Senior Center parot this $34,100 um article six of the special town meeting October 2019 that was for a town hall senior Senate site of valuation $897 121 remains article 6 of the special town meeting October 2019 uh Town Hall senior Senate conceptual layout 70,000 remains on that article annual town meeting May 2018 Town Hall feasibility study $1,733 2016 and the annual town meeting May 2018 the senior center feasibility study $727 2017 for a total of $116 $235 54 and this article um was approved by the finance committee and as I said it would move that money into the projects the town halls and the senior center projects Mr chair i' like to make a motion to approve article 11 as written thank you is there a second a second okay a motion a second Alec yes Denise yes Kevin yes Roger yes and I a yes Mr chair go ahead Mr un article 12 um the purpose of article 12 is um a clarification so the town we were authorized to borrow uh 4,762 th000 by uh previously that was in May of uh 2021 at the special town meeting article one and that $4,725 Pro could be used for completion of the projects which are now the town hall and the Norton Senior Community Center any questions or motions do you want to [Music] speak Mr SL if you'd like to speak you can you don't don't I wouldn't like to but I will thank you just more trees to kill Buble high for an old guy [Applause] any of you want we already have [Music] it first of all um I'm Jim slaughtery 3630 Street uh I want to welcome you even though it's your third meeting here I hope you like it um sooner or later we'll get the avit stuff in we working on it um what we're proposing the town manager already explained page one to you um what happened was at the last um building committee meeting the committee decided that they wanted to do the full demolition of the Old Town Hall what had happened is during the progress of the the buildings we we had to cut back certain things on the senior center we cut back parking spaces we cut back uh Pao and back we cut back the commercial kitchen we cut back um something of the the brick um on the town hall we cut back the full demolition just did the demolition of the food pantry we cut back a brick facade and and did the cement clap Bo because we figured that it you know it doesn't really mix in with the other buildings but it's still Colonial it still looks good and I don't think anybody will complain now that it's done but in order because of Co and the rising construction costs that were going on when we did this 3 years ago within our bid specs we had to cut out certain things and I know and a few of the board members were concerned that we sold these three projects the athletic field the town hall and the senior center on the fact that the Old Town Hall was a demolition project and in fact it was not um it was didn't have an occupancy permit it didn't have good haac the police department had used the sell for firing range so there was Gunpowder res to do throughout the whole building there was all kinds of other problems that the building probably should have been demolished and that's what we said we would do but in order to save the taxpayers money we cut that out of the budget because certain people thought they could use the building for storage and whatever but going along we realized the bids for the projects came in low um the bid for the town hall was a milon ion under what we projected the bid for the senior center was $800,000 under so already we had saved a million eight um we got a donation from a past citizen Mr Nelson's family of a million6 with a senior sener so you add that up and in talking during our committee meeting we realized like you see in article 11 that there's these uh five projects that is still and I call it pots of gold you can call it what you want but there's these pots of gold sitting out there that we haven't spent so all this money has been paid for by the tax payers already it's not emach for anything so we decided that we should go to a demolition a full demolition of the Old Town Hall which is anything beyond the brick facade if you're wondering um and that that's s we already did uh page one page two is what we're talking about now um page three is uh but we asked the present contractor because they're on property so they don't have to mobilize or anything else they're famili Amil with the project they're familiar they helped move people out of the Old Town Hall uh and we thought that with this extra cash that's here and I'll go further on to explain others um that we could demolish the whole town hall and I have to put in a caveat now um I complain every week about phone calls I already got a phone call from the meeting Tuesday night that why is the contractor the contractor told us that he could do the full demolition at a million3 and I'm not going to read all the numbers but then our OPM owners project manager came in with all these numbers underneath of other things that weren't covered by the project for demolition the per one person called me accused the contractor because we haven't gotten approval from the town meeting to spend the extra cash that's floating around all over the place um that the contractor raised the cost of the demolition to 2.2 well everything passed one is not the contract's fault so I'm saying I made a mistake let's do no more I don't do social media for that very reason because I think it's a pi I and uh you know if you got a problem with me call me everybody else does um and I'll try to explain it to you the way I can but that so right now the cost of the project will be approximately $2.2 million so what we're doing if you look at page four is for the town hall we appropriated 23, 290,000 um so far we've spent 22,4 166,000 we have 823 th000 left over on the senior center we appropriated 11,110 th000 um and then I have no idea what the added Cod COA funding is but uh it is what it is and then the project budget today we spent a mil 10,451 199 leaving 739 th000 you add those two figures up we have 438,000 left you take the 116,000 that comes in and um I don't know where we got all the other money from but let's see what on the next page so uh so what we're asking the town meeting to do is to take out the money from article um 11 which is $116,000 and anything that's left over we already know we have 75 I do I have the exact figure on the yeah the the um the 74 on page four at the bottom the 74,000 is what's left over from the athletic fields that's the money that's left over for the part that was Pro uh funded and for that um so we're asking the town to take all these extra funds that are floating around of my plots of gold combine them all and we can pay for demolition of the Old Town Hall um and I would say that's I'm done if anybody's got any questions thank you Mr the last thing I'll say is I promise the town we come in on time and on budget it wasn't my fault I wasn't building the buildings so we didn't come in on time we were like 2 months or 3 months behind schedule but we're on the budget and as far as the demolition of the Old Town Hall I'm making no promises and I'll say that straight up right away this is all Pie in the Sky stuff I we have concrete figures we have the five articles that we already proved you that there's money out there I'm telling you the other two buildings we should have money left over and um we got rid of the Old Town Hall and we destroy it in 2024 dolls instead of 2044 when the building starts falling down and then the fire department can take over part of the Old Town Hall that's part of the new construction of the fire station cuz they need it for their uh basically they got four female firefighters and they have to make accommodations both uh showers and locker rooms and bedding and everything else so they're going to use the I call it the new Old Town Hall part of the building but right now the contractor is working on destroying the food pantry and the ramp into the police station because that was part of the food pantry um and they're doing everything but actual Hardware stuff some of the stuff that um the design fees on page I didn't give you that page but okay um sorry Mr SL I think we're going to we're going to move to any questions okay fine I'll do that works for me are there any questions from the board on this article 12 it's the the wording for combining those funds uh it's the Waring for using the funds right I just want to get clarification are we approving the wording that's in this revised 106 o in was in our packet um the wording that you use is um I think in your packet to see if the town will vote to authorize the expenditure the remaining balance of the collective amount of 4,762 th000 approved under a vote the town passed at the May 21st special town meeting aticle one for the town hall Town Senior and Community Center uh in community athletic projects to be used for all purposes set forth in set article one or take any action relative there to so not the version that explains what it's being used for yeah it wasn't necessary because um article one referred to demolition so I it was just a duplication okay okay any questions I entertain a motion Mr chair Mr Snider I'd like to make a motion to approve article 12 as printed okay is there a second second all right Motion in a second Alec yes Denise yes Kevin yes Roger yes and I'm yes okay M can I ask a question to the select Board of the Town manager about that on one of the handouts Mr sler gave us at the fincom there was penalties for being late on the buildings that you said you didn't think you were going to I have been I have been advised by Council not to answer that question because it's a legal matter and we're not allowed to discuss legal matters my big question to the board of the Town manager are you planning on pursuing that Avenue yes I I am I'll talk to the board probably yeah we haven't discussed it yet it hasn't been discussed disced thank you okay so what do we what do we have about chair just a couple of them yeah um you have um article three so article three um that I'm recommending um I'm recommending this under chapter 110 personal bylaws art article one um this is policies and procedures and in the policies and procedures says the town manager shall from time to time review the salary plan and he shall keep informed as to pay rates and policies outside the service in town and shall recommend to the town any action he deems desirable to maintain a fair and Equitable pay level and uh so we had a compensation study done by G gvhr uh was completed back in April and um the you have in the article the current uh ranges and the proposed ranges and um this does not give anybody a pay raise there is no one that would be below the minimum in the ranges so um this does not result in a pay raise for anyone under this article it's just setting the ranges do have any questions you haven't voted on this yet have you Pi we have not vot okay question no if not I'll entertain a [Music] motion Mr chair Mr I make a motion that we recommend article three is written okay is there a second a second all right motion of the second Alec yes Denise yes Kevin yes Roger yes and I'm yes uh Madame chair yes I'll make a motion to approve article 3 as present second right motion second Zach yes Paul yes Trace yes Paul yes Brandon yes2 yes okay we oh that was the easiest one on me um then the other um I don't know if you want to vote on Capital recommendations I want to wait until I mean for me I think it was just an just an accounting error I think okay I think it's going to be a 10-second meeting on Tuesday so okay those are the ones that you went through previously yes okay so do we have any further questions on the capital recommendations you talking about article 8 yes of yes article thank you yep make a CH uh Mr chair Mr S I would like to make a motion to approve article 8 as written I thought it was to adjourn but okay second all right Alec yes Denise yes Kevin yes Rog have a quick question Mr absolutely that's with the uh the changes that we put into it yes yes r i me yes okay M chair just quick question the number that is different as the um total ambulance Reserve fund what was that new amount in here it say 775,000 but that's what's changing right yeah that they'll be voting on yeah um coming out of the ambulance uh Reserve fund will be 1,424 1800 and out of capital um $9 87,8 as written right second yes Paul yes TR yes Paul yes Brandon yes yes okay uh I think that that covers all of them um Mr SN if you're willing to make a motion um Mr chair Mr I'd like to make a motion to adjourn a second motion a second Al yes Denise yes Kevin yes Roger yes and I yes thank you Al for for joining us I know you're you need to trouble down there have to make a motion to a Jour all right all right Z yes Paula yes Trace Brandon yes are we still on for Monday night no we're John joh you you re a long time Monday is a holiday [Music] [Music]