we have a long agenda so let's get to it all right um the first item on the agenda is uh for the Board of Health and Christian's honor is on and the first article is article 23 and I'll share that and uh that's not it let me find it in article three the town will transfer a sum of money from the water pollution abatement trust program reserve for appropriation account to support administrative costs of the program Chris I'm ask I'm actually gonna ask that that article is is not supported there was uh that that request was put in by Era and U we are actually all set with that we do not need that this at this meeting so we can remove to take no action take no action with it it it was it was basically it's Administration fees uh it covers the administration cost of doing our Title Five loans um but um our spreadsheet that we had at the time um was unclear on our balance and I I learned afterwards that we were okay okay so it's all set now Madam chair yes Joe I recommend we take no action on article 23 Second hey Motion in a second to take no action on article 23 Steve nope I read no action yes okay yes okay Trace yes Sandy yes Joe yes Bill yes Paul yes Cody yes sorry Zach yes Bonnie yes and I to a yes 10 yes for no action for article 23 okay and the next article is article 24 to see if the town will vote to raise an appropriate and our transfer from available funds a sum money for the purpose of having household hazardous waste day so this request is for um our annual hazardous was day uh this year we have a tenative date of June 8th of course obviously uh this article passing is uh key to that day continuing or happening but um it's an event that has been going on for 20 plus years annually uh we get a a ton of calls throughout the course of the Year wondering when our next one's going to be um I understand um budgets are tight this year but you know hoping that we could still have our hazardous way day what is the sum of money did I miss that Mike or Chris uh the request was for 12,000 12,000 and that would come from be from free cash corre and this is paying for like the appropriate disposal of all of the items that are collected that day correct so we hire clean harbers Environmental Services to come down and work alongside us uh we also utilize the highway department as best we can to try to save money as you know anywhere we can um that's also to pay for the um dumpster for to take away the um contaminated any contaminated waste such as paint cans and stuff like that uh because they actually take if you bring them a can of enamel paint they dump it into a 55 gallon drum which they seal later and the can the can itself goes into the dumpster so that dumpster goes out as a contaminated dumpster um it also includes um uh police officer um um what do you call it uh detail detail yes I'm sorry yes detail thank you I had a brain crap for a second there um and that also covers uh any overtime um which is very minimal for um the two women in my office that work with me on this um I'm on salary so I don't get any overtime extra um and I knowbody remember I forget here uh I will say that I I asked for a little bit extra this year because their costs every year go up uh meaning Clean Harbors uh they went up pretty substantially this year um and last year was it last year sorry total bill for last year was right here our total invoice for last year was $993 194 um the year before it was 7,000 they go up on an annual like well it's actually I'm sorry it wasn't the year before but that we had uh two years off because of covid so um the one prior to covid was 699 6909 so almost 7,000 what did we transfer from free cash for this article last year usually it's 10,000 I just asked for the additional two to make sure we're covered um and it the balance of it typically just stays in the account for the following one um right now we have a balance of right around $1,000 I'd leave them there um would we get any kind of like grants or environmental grants from the state or federal government for doing this Hazard hazardous waste day they offered them to me I I have looked annually and I have not found anything and I spoke to my assistant who's been with the town for 18 years and she's never seen one come through so no it unfortunately no does anyone have any questions or comments for Chris about article 24 yeah Paula just quick question Chris So when you say the costs go up do we know what the cost will be or is it based on what we actually take in it it is based a little bit on what we take in but I do I tell them to to warn me when we get up to um like last year I said you gota when we get close to 9,000 I want a warning uh unfortunately it's it's you know um I don't know how many vehicles are going to show up that's the hard part um last year we got hit pretty good we had like 140 cars come through um you know the downfall of not having this event is is this stuff going to get you know brought to the right place or is it going to end up in the ground in somebody's backyard because they have no place to take it you know and if they don't have this event they have to pay to get rid of it somewhere else so um you know it's I mean ultimately they're paying here too because this is their tax money but um it just it's been a great event to make sure that the waste is going where where it belongs um as far as this year's difference so like just an example the setup fee from last year to this year has gone up $660 the uh so the way they do this is when you come in they'll they'll judge your car what you have in your car they'll say it's either a quarter load a half load or a full load um and the way they measure that is three gallons 10 gallons 25 gallons they kind of estimate each one they're usually very fair about it but each one of those items or categories went up um you know the quarter load went up $9 a quarter the half the half load went up $111 the the uh cross per household uh full uh load would go up $18 um and so these types all these little extra charges that they put in here add up as you know the more Vehicles we have come through um and the more waste that comes through um and then what was the what was the breakdown between details in the overtime versus what actually get paid to clean Harvest for their processing so the detail last year I believe let me take a look here the details right around 326 and the uh Board of Health overtime for two people was 350 uh dumpster 675 and then we advertised in the newspaper we pushed a little heavier last year uh and we pushed uh we we paid uh 4294 to run articles in Sun chronical so ultimately Clean Harbors last year was 7166 um yeah and then it was about eight well actually I'm sorry the police detail last year was was closer to 500 and the Border Health was 350 so it was 850 between those two on the overtime I'm sorry about that Madam chair yes Zach uh Chris obviously this is needed or the stuff's going to wind up in the side the road with the knit bottles um but is there anybody else other than clean hobbers that you can uh get a quote from or that you've reached out to we have and we tried one one year and it was an absolute disaster and we thought we were doing great by saving some money and it was a disaster they clean hobbers just seems like they've got their you know ducks in a row when they get there everything is done professionally um the last one they they had like um residential pickup and I'd have people putting their cans out at the drive into the driveway and they wouldn't show up um and now I've got people with you know hazardous way sitting at the end of their driveway you know um so I mean I haven't had a whole lot of um luck with other companies there aren't a ton of them out there to do this that want to do this um and like I said the last the last episode we had with them was was M with the other company was miserable have comments or questions for Chris Madam chair yeah Joe uh this is actually more for Mike than Chris although Chris could answer if he knows um is the reason that we do this here rather than budgeting it in the in the normal budget because we don't actually know from year to year if we'll have one of these correct that's General why I'd like it this way um and it and it allows the the town's people to decide whether it's going to happen very enough okay right anyone else Madam chair yes Cody um just a question on this so this is a this is a free essentially we're funding it out of of um free cash every year but there's no charge to the residents that bring their stuff so this is different than like the recycling deal where we set up the revolving account and fund that like that's a it's a totally different thing and there's and R behind this is because this is more important to recycle and so we're not charging people to do it I I think we'd have less and less people showing up if you charge them um and I and ultimately um the way I've always felt about it and the way my predecessor always felt about it is you have to give uh a nice easy access for disposal for this uh hazardous waste or we're going to find it in places we don't want it okay do we want to vote on this tonight anyone have any other questions or comments I'm chair Madam chair yes Joe I make a motion that we recommend article 24 to transfer from free cash a sum of $112,000 for the purpose of having household hazardous waste collection day second motion on a second Steve yes Trace yes Sandy yes o yes Bill yes Paul yes Cody yes Zach yes yes I to a yes and yes for article 24 thank you so much everybody I really appreciate that thank you Chris you have a great night you too next article is article 22 and this article is looking for $3,000 from free cash and this is um so the highway department can dispose of items that are disposed of on the sides of the roads and the cost to get rid of those I don't know if Jared is on but so these are how much how much was this article last year how much did we transfer last year the same and did do you know if we spent it all we we did the big thing now obviously is mattresses that people just throw on the side of the road anyone have questions or comments about article 22 to transfer 3,000 from free cash to dispose of mattresses and whatnot hey yes oh Cody um I know these are peanuts and at the end of the day it doesn't matter I'm still going to raise the issue that this is a reoccurring thing that we keep paying for every year and it's not being carried in the budget and we end up using free cash for it every year I personally would rather see something built into to the highway Department's um budget to cover these things on an annual basis and if if we know that it's going to happen every year just carry the $3,000 line item in the budget yeah I agree with that Cody Mike do you know how many years in a row now we've had this article in the spring asking for money from free cash I don't to be honest with you it's been several though yeah I mean do we sorry madam chair yeah go ahead Cody um James is on tonight right is there would he be able to tell us what it would take like how much of a pain this would be to create a line item in their budget and just one time put this on the on the annual budget and stop doing this as an article every year Madam chair yeah James um that would be easily done or we could add the U $3,000 into the highway department as an expense line item it wouldn't be difficult to do and to answer the previous question question we first did an article for that purpose in 2021 and we've done it every year since so the last three years or so thank you James Madam chair yeah Cody so if we if we were to do that and create the line item in the budget and say I know we're the recommended budget at this point has a million call it a million 3,000 like just remove the article and and create the line item budget and I mean how much of a pain is that going to be this year you me I suspect we'll have to take 3,000 from somewhere else to in the highway budget or we give more free cash to the budget than the 1.2 million right right it would be easier if uh we left it as an article this year and then next year when they're planning their budget they could put this in as a line item how does everyone else feel about that moving forward with how things are right now and then trying to make some changes for next year on how we're using free cash on these articles in the spring mam chair yeah Zach yeah I don't have a problem wa till next year but I'd add some of these other things just like haard collection day if we're going to do that every year put that in uh put that in Christ's budget you know and try to get rid of some of these other articles and the ones we discussed previously the only thing I can see with having the Articles like Chris mentioned it's it's I guess bringing it more on the Forefront in front of the town's people at town meeting having in an article so they're aware of the Hazardous Waste day they're aware of being an issue that people are disposing of things along the roadways um whereas if it was a line item in their budget it might not be as much in the Forefront in the public when we're discussing it at town meeting I don't know being Devil's Advocate Madam chair yes Cody um have we have we put forth a recommendation on the highway budget already have we we have not put put any recommendations for any of the budget line items yet so if that's the case with stopping creating the line item in the budget throwing another 3,000 in there and funding it from freec cash this year and not kicking the can down the road where it could potentially be forgotten again we're going to try to set policy on how we're using free cash after this year's town meeting we can go and when we're going through the budget line items we can put 3,000 into the highway and take 3,000 from somewhere else from Mike's recommendations um and then vote no action on this that isn't option but if but Mike hasn't put forth the recommended budget yet the total recommend budget so taking 3,000 like bumping up the free cash recommendation from a million to a million 3,000 and and building that into the into the budget this year why why would that be difficult you think we should just take from more from free cash for I mean we're going to anyways that's the whole point of this article is it's pulling from free cash so what's the difference between just building it into the free cash now and creating the line item as opposed to kicking it down the road and making it next year's problem I don't know I don't think it would be a problem next year if we're going to be trying to do things differently and the Departments will know that we're going to do things differently Madam chair yeah I just want to point out that's gonna me that's gonna you know impact the percentages that that we share out um in terms of the 1% across the board so we would definitely have to explain why the general government is getting a higher percentage and it would have to be explained whenever article 22 is discussed at town meeting anyways when we're if we're recommending no action because we bump that line item up in the budget and then next year instead of creating a new line item budget it becomes a carry over the 3,000 year-over-year because right now it's not carried in the budget it becomes it's just a separate article funded from preash and so next year it creates a new line item so one way or another we have to have this discussion but next year there willon be an article right so if we're if we're the article's there this year we take the money from free cash put it into the recommended budget recommend no article because we've already allocated the 3,000 from the million dollars and 3,000 from free cash that we're already allocating I just think it would be cleaner to set it this year you you're building that into the budget than than it's funded and next year it's talking about you know renewing it and why if if we need more than 3,000 next year why as opposed to a you know line item article every year that gets kind of swept into to the the free cash discussion Madam chair yes bill um personal opinion we make too many changes on too many items you're gonna you're G to have a mess at town meeting I can't wait um you're you're going to people are going to start thinking well look they found all this money it's no longer an article it's in the budget and blah blah blah and if you're you know and then if you're trying to do an override you just blew that up yeah I I think we agreed on the 1.2 million from free cash and to me that's where it stands if we're going to put this 3,000 into the highway Department's budget we should take 3,000 from another budget not provide more free cash Madam chair yes yeah that that's I I agree it I'd rather leave it like it is now and then when you work on developing how you want next SP next year's budget to proceed we could put this in the budget if that's the way you want to go you you have it as an article now leave it as an article let the people at town meeting decide if they want it they'll vote for it if they don't they won't Madam chair yes Joe I I tend to agree for this year so I I definitely would like to see this in the budget in the future but given given what we're trying to do given the 1% given the talk about override I think in giving the town that the opportunity to say yeah or nay on a little bit more granular basis this year may make sense anyone else weigh in uh who was that now Cody again no yeah yes if there's somebody else I can I'll defer I don't think I heard anybody else um in that case I I personally would Le lean towards every single article that we're talking about spending additional free cash on an annual expense this year that we don't recommend it because we don't know how much free cash we're going to have we don't know how much is coming in the fall we don't know how much we're going to blow through and this is this is exactly how we go from starting at 1 million 1.1 and end up at 1.9 every year and people are like where's the money comeing from so I'm I'm not going to support these things anymore if we're not building them into the budget and it gets hidden and swept into this free cash spend every year it's just hiding what we actually spend our money from to 100 people that show up at town meeting it it it's nobody's asking questions about these things 99.9% of the time there's no discussion about it they go with the recommend recommendations of fcom I believe it's our job to to try and push this in the direction that we think it needs to go and if we're not doing that now then what the hell are we doing here it this this is part of the budget it's built in we know it gets spent every year why are we kicking the can down the road and knowing that this is going to be an article every year and then next year it's just going to be a new line item and next year we don't have the money this year and you're talking about spending it won't happen next year we don't have it this year to spend we won't have it next year to spend why are we kicking the can down the road to something that is probably going to get forgotten and swept under the rug again but the whole point here is it is our job to guide the the discussion with our recommendations to ask the questions on behalf of the town's people to make the proper recommendations to them and if we're not going to include line item budgets for things that are on recurring uh expenses every year then I'm I'm going to vote no across the board on all of these going forward we already voted for tree services 31,000 transfer from free cash would you want a revote on that if I have to call for a revote I will but if I if nobody else is with me I'm not going to waste everybody's time I would love to hear from other incom members on their thoughts on this Madam chair topic yes Bonnie yeah I do agree with Cody on principle um but I do also agree that I think that for this year we need to lay out and explain and it is the job of this board absolutely but also the three boards to come together to have an explanation for why we've gotten to this point and then when we take some time over the summer or post the May meeting to um set Financial policy that's when we make a decision like this which again I'm saying I agree with but I think it's going to be very heated and long and um confusing for a lot of people at town meeting so I think we need to limit the number of radical changes I realize this is $3,000 and the other was 12,000 the other one was 31,000 and of course it all adds up but I think the average person that comes to town meeting and honestly this will be well attended probably um in the fall it will be 100 people probably um and that's the reality is that most of the time it's 100 people that make a decision about the budget unless there's something radical happening so I think we should try to minimize um the confusion and make those big changes sort of sweeping changes next year chair yes Joe yeah I don't think I said before I do agree with Cody on principle um but you know I I also agree with what what Bonnie said there um I think it would be in our best interest on some of these especially some of these specific ones to actually explain to town meeting that Our intention is to roll it into the the annual budgets next year so that they understand what's going on um that could ALS spur some debate um from from the floor who knows um but at least that would allow the town meeting to be heard on it Madam chair yes Trace I agree with uh Joe making it clear to the audience that these will become budget line items in the future we've dropped the ball the past few years not picking up that these were annual expenses and [Music] Cody I I just I want to put a finer point on this that these are recurring expenses that are buried within the budget process because they're not in the budget right now so all of these things when when these articles pass and they get funded from free cash we do not have the money to fund our town to level services this year every one of these articles is level Services because we have funded them every year for the past three years using this backwards way of doing things so this will not be in the budget next year as a line item because it will be an increase over the spending because it's not a line item this year if it's not a line item this year putting it as a line item next year we are putting zeros for it because it wasn't in the budget and so if we're talking at a at another 1% increase next year there will not be the money to do this next year and we and you can put the line item in there but if that article shows up back on the on the warrant next year who's going to remember that we had this conversation it's supposed to be a line item budget and it's no longer like we don't have the money to fund these now I'm going to remember so Madam chair yes I think to the point of are we gonna remember I I I you know as you had said before we're gonna have a meeting where we talk about just these kinds of things right so that's the whole purpose of that meeting where we're gonna um you know discuss policy and where these things belong um I I also say that you know I understand I I do have an issue with the free cash in general as as everyone else does I have a bigger issue with the fact that um we spend so much in the fall um to supplement budgets I think that is the the bigger issue that that kind of muddies the waters and and creates a um you know a budget that's harder to follow um so last year it was what three million at um town at fall town meeting so that to me is the is the bigger issue that I would like to tackle like and in right now again say for this fall but I'm personally not going to support anything any added budget supplements um from free cash in the fall I think you know if we have that discussion now and make that decision now and build the budget around that then that's going to be um you know something that that gives Fair notice to anything that needs to be changed can be changed now and again that's that's my bigger issue Madam chair yes Bonnie and I say this knowing that you just took over my seat uh whenever we traded places um however I do think it would be helpful for someone to explain these things to town meeting so that they understand because people hear the words free cash and what I don't even understand what that means because I know what free means and I know what cash is and it's neither of those things so um I think since we're going to have a healthy audience to hear these things the ones who are not typically at town meeting I think it's important to explain these things I think it probably is important to explain at any town meeting but particularly this one and then also as Sandy was just talking about which I also agree with um explaining how historically the budget has worked where there have been supplements in the fall and how that percentage wise would have to be taken into account if you were to look at previous years um so you can't really compare May to May you really have to compare um May plus October May plus October for a fiscal year that's straddling because obviously the budget for May is being set for July 1 so a lot of people don't understand these things and I think these are the types of things we should think about ahead of time and how they're going to be explained to people and thank you for volunteering to help me with that Bonnie you have a vice chair you can tap into him hey I I need all the help I can get people I'm not kidding you okay I'll meet you at chibo M Madam chair yes Zach I guess I would need somebody to explain to me why what's the opposition to using free cash in the fall uh if we're not going to use free cash in the fall why don't we need a fall town meeting at all um I mean I thought the purpose of that is to see what comes in for Revenue what comes in for permits what comes in for you know various stuff that you don't know about so what is what are we proposing here we're GNA have one budget in the spring and then we're done we're not spending another Cent even though we may have a health health insurance holiday and there may be a couple million dollars in the account I just somebody needs to explain that to me because you lost me Madam chair yes Sandy yeah that wasn't that wasn't what I didn't say we wouldn't spend any free cash I said for operating for for Budget supplements for supplementing the budget for um like we usually do with the overtime for the police and fire um you know last year we contractual increases in that um that that again those those are things that are known ahead of time um that are known in the spring and so if it's something you know the one time the capital the reserves all those things those are fine but I have an bigger issue with the ongoing anything that's going to add to that budget and um really distort the percentages because if you go back and backfill any of those positions in the fall now it's not a 1% increase on General government now it's a lot more but Madam chair I I disagree with the whole notion that we got to sit here with percentages that's not how you run your household budget you run by priorities what's the priorities if your kid was sick that would be a priority to make sure he's he's ill was it was stuck on these you know percentage budget you know say 1% is 1% It is 1.1% I don't agree with that notion at all I always said you know many times in this in this committee that priorities for me anyway are Public Safety protection of life and property education and then everything else I don't care what the percentages are it's what can we do just like you sit home at your kitchen table with your your your family and you decide what you GNA do with the budget you know percentages I don't know what that has to do with the price of te in China to be honest with you m Madam chair s uh s Sandy you w to respond real quick and then Mike yeah I was just gonna say Zack I agree those are the priorities and right now school is taking a huge huge hit right and so um if we go back and um level service police and fire um and don't do the same for schools which we we know we can't right and and it's not even feasible because they have to make their decisions now they have to set their budget now they can't make midyear hires so again that's where everything gets distorted and when we do push out the percentages as um a big way of showing that we're um trying to to have some sort of you know equality towards the different departments um and I again that's very misleading when that that those numbers completely change Madam chair the only thing I would I would say to that Sandy is schools are three quarters of the budget so when there's money they get three quarters of the money when there's not money they take three quarters of the cut that's just when you're three quarters of the budget that's they're always going to be the largest number either way plus or minus so you know you know well that's going back to percentages Zach right that's that's how the percentages factor in so that's I think why they're important Mike you had something um I was just going to say obviously this is a discussion that we'll have you'll have to have um this summer but historically the way everything operated was the finance committee wanted to see that the schools got as much money as they could in May so it was designed that we underfunded Town budgets in May so the schools could start the year in September with more money and then in the fall if there was money available some of that overtime and things like that would be added back to the town budget and the schools never came back for money until Joe Baya was here and then it was every year last year was the first year since he came here I think that they didn't come back in the fall for money so I just want to make it clear wasn't it's not just the town that was getting money in the fall mam chair yes Andy yeah I I appreciate that Mike and and I think you know that that seems to have stopped and and um again I don't I don't have an issue if if right now the schools were getting a little bit more with the idea that the town would offset that in the fall I just I don't I don't see that's what's happening right now necessarily I think um you know there's a lot of hits going all the way around Madam chair yes Paul I just I just for the life we can't get over the fact that last year the schools were looking at almost 10% this year they W almost 13 it's just not a sustainable um model I mean they've got to come up with some other way to reain that in other than just coming back for more more more it's just it's a crazy budget and I don't know what the answer is but uh it's just um crazy ask for the schools you know we try to last year asked them to come back with a three or 4% budget and they didn't came back in almost 10 so um a townside we don't get to ask for what we want we try to build our budget accordingly and come back with Mike's recommendation of three or 4% and we live with it from what I understand Paul the 12% isn't even everything that they want the 12% is what they needed um but we'll have more time to discuss that with them on Thursday when we're meeting with them yeah just don't see how that's sustainable though with a prop two and a half with no uh cost of living uh adjustments in there and stuff as far as the uh um the way the Market's going you know mam chair Sandy I understand that schools are the hard the biggest budget and therefore that's the one we see the most but I also think you know we're looking at fire and police also are way above what what you're saying Paul um you know 8% was the request for fire um I think they got one of them got 9% last year so it's it's not just the schools that whose costs are going up I think you know all of all of our budgets are um it's just the one that we see the most well fire this year was because we lost the saf for Grant which was a a three year program to bring in some new new help so yeah it was a one-year anomaly that share but Madam chair yes Zach I'll save my comments for Thursday but but the only thing I will say tonight is is if we don't can't have cost controls within the town budgets school all of the above and we see the budgets that we're seeing today seven eight nine 10 12% an override is nothing more than a big Band-Aid that gets you through another year because if you keep coming back with 12% plus whatever 8% when you have 3% you know two and a half plus growth call it 3% it's just another bandaid and it doesn't resolve the problem it's pardon my analogy this is like the alcoholic that just give me one more drink and I'll fix the problem just give me one more drink if you can't control the budgets moving forward then an override does nothing for you it just buys you another year it's the next drink for the addict hopefully we'll hear more about that on Thursday as far as um possible fiveyear plan from General government and from the school side Madam chair yes Cody I would just like to point out that the comparisons we get for year-over-year spending so what we're looking at right now versus what was spent last year apart from the article spending of free cash that's not being tracked under the budget that I have now hashed out over the course of the last two meetings the number that we are looking at for Department year over-year when the when the towns are when the the town departments versus the School departments whatever's like additional funding that's needed in in the fall and gets funded from free cash or whatever whatever the heck we use there the numbers at the end of the year are the numbers that we're looking at from the beginning and so when you're starting if we're using percentages everyone's getting roughly a 1% increase across the board the challenge with the schools there is if the schools are not asking for additional money in the falls in the fall town meeting but police and fire and Highway and everybody else is then really the the other Town departments are getting more than a 1% increase year-over-year and then when we look at it next year we we act like it's a level service or like like it's a level increase and everybody's getting 1% everybody's getting 3% or whatever it is is except it's a fake number because you're not comparing what was done in May of last year you're comparing it may and fall and that number is always going to skew more towards the town departments whenever we're using those that money in the fall for the town so I don't have a problem with historically baetta getting his cut of the Fall Town Money along with all the other departments if we're now saying we don't want the any departments to get any of the recurring expenses in the fall which I don't think we should be using non-recurring revenues for recurring expenses if we are funding those things in the fall and they are more skewed towards fire and police and Highway and everybody else other than schools then you're starting at a position where next year when we're having this discussion those departments are actually better off than the 1% that the schools were stuck with because they can make midterm to sy's point that you can't hire teachers midterm you can't hire admin midterm you can't add programs midterm once the school budget has been set they have to set it for the entire year and live with it versus fire and police and everyone else they can add positions that we have done it in the past we've added positions in the fall so they end up starting at a better position than the schools do and the schools are hamstrung because of that and then it and then it compounds so year over-year the spending at the other departments that do get that fall town meeting money they're that much farther ahead so they're 1% next year is that much farther ahead based on whatever they got in the fall so that's why all of these things have to be built into the budget and we should not be using fall town meeting to increase people's budget spending it should be used for oneoff weird things that weren't expected build in the budget what you expect to be in the budget btwn meeting is a catchup for things that were unforeseen or to use towards special uh special needs or whatever it may be but the numbers are the numbers here and whenever you're hamstringing one department at the you know for the sake of others it's not a fair comparison to say you know well they get more and so we make up for it in the fall well if you're making up for it in the fall then you should have built it in in the in the spring whenever we're having these discussions Madam chair go ahead go ahead Steve so I just you know just one thing to that is we've seen the schools add positions during the year and and it's built into their budget they call that new money or free money or however they do it they budget a little bit more but they do add programs during the year I just want to point if I understand what we're doing here tonight these conversations sound like this was going to be for Thursday I don't know if we want to wait on article 22 to to even vote on it at this point until we have Thursday's meeting but I think we've pushed our conversation regarding the article to the Thursday night meeting at this point so yes I agree that our discussion that we're having right now could could definitely be had on Thursday as well um but just a point on as far as building things into the budget that could be unexpected you know when you're comparing you know Fire Department police department overtime that is not built into the budget for the spring and supplemented in the fall the schools I know are having to put in contingency money for the those unexpected out of District tuition costs that change go up throughout the year after after September that we definitely saw every single joint meeting we had with them that number number was increasing and they were having to deal with that so I know that they were building that into their budget this year um Madam chair go ahead go ahead mik I I don't want to keep this going but just one quick thing to um this is a unique year um because we're going 1% 1% and to talk about what Cody was just talking about in the spring in the past what happened was the schools were getting a higher percentage in the spring because as I said before we wanted to fund them so that they could get started in September and then in the fall the percentage was brought up for the town it wasn't like we started in May with 3% for school 3% for Town and then in October we went Skyhigh with the town it was the town started out lower knowing that in the fall we were going to add money that that's just past history and we can talk about that later Madam chair yes Sandy I just I just want to point out again I appreciate that and I and I I do I look at the percentages right that's that's to me one of the ways I kind of see percentage increases from year to year um that to me is a big factor and I guess I'm just looking for an easier way right than than these numbers kind of kind of constantly changing in the um spring we were looking at a 1.9% for General government and 4% for schools so to Mike's point we were giving a lot more to schools by the time we finished with all the supplements it was now 7% 7.7% for General government and still the 4% for schools and I I realize that some of that's going to be turned back um so I understand all that's you know going to get factored in as well um the general government tends to turn back money whereas the schools don't but again it's just it just makes it very it muddies the waters right it makes it really hard to kind of follow and track where where the percentages are is they're constantly changing um you know again we look at the increase in budgets and we we say well how can schools ask for you know the the 12% um and and we don't last year again 9% for fire this was fiscal year 24 not not the not the current year and then 7% for the police so again the number the the the contract increases are are what they are we both have the types of contracts where you get increases for steps lanes for years of service and for all that um the schools we see that number because it's a bigger impact but this is not just a school's issue where the the costs are going up it's a it's a townwide issue okay anyone else want to get anything off their chest or do we want to move on this article 22 okay well Madam chair yes Joe I make a motion that we recommend the town transfer from free cash the sum of $3,000 to fund collecting and disposing discarded items banded along our roadways second okay motion a second we will vote Steve yes Trace yes Sandy yes Joe yes Bill yes Paul yes Cody no Zach yes Bonnie yes yes nine yes one no for article 22 if we can if we can take article 21 next the uh police chief is on but he's about to board a plane at 8:00 clock oh yes definitely what was that article number 21 article 21 is um withdrawal from Civil Service uh this is something that was negotiated um with the police department and um we have a two-step process a town meeting article and also it's on the ballot in April for both fire and police to leave Sil service and if the chief has not boarded his plane yet and he's still on good evening everyone can you hear me all right yes hi Chief Clark hi there so we've been uh talking about this for about six years to be honest with you um there's been we've been in Civil Service since March of 1958 there's been two attempts to to get out one was in 1975 and another in 97 or 98 U both were failed attempts OB obviously with the recruiting and retention issues that are going on um not really alone with the police but with the fire um you know this we always thought that the best course of action would be to to discuss this with the unions we've been discussing it with unions we have a uh we came up with a uh with two policies a recruitment and retention policy and a promotional policy and um you know we think getting out of civil service will get us better candidates and keep us uh in the game a little better right thank you anyone have questions or comments for chief yes fine Chief Clark did we talk about this in the fall as well so this was on in the fall for the fire department but we just started the uh the the both the patrolman and the superior offices just finalized their contracts um around that time so we weren't really ready to to move on it um you're supposed to get out the way went in and we got in by by an election um I wasn't sure that we had to do this this part um I really don't know what happens if at the election we get out and at town meeting we don't I don't know what's going to happen there but um I don't believe they'll be a I believe this will be revenue revenue neutral um article getting out of a civil service um most of the costs will be absorbed by those people taking exams so it'd be very minimal if it all costs associated to the department thank you Chief Clark do you know why it failed in 75 and 98 in 75 it was brought together by a few special police officers that wanted to um get out of civil service so they could they could stay as special police officers and police officers in 9798 um I truly believed that it was a top down approach and there was no bargaining and no input from the offices okay I hope you are not sitting next to that baby on the plane I know anyone else have questions or comments for chief Clark on article 21 um um I just found an article that I have in my collection that the Norton police supported Civil Service back in the fall of 1997 town meeting thanks Peter all right not hearing any other questions or comments I will entertain a motion to rec go Joe yes I make a motion that we recommend article 21 to vote to revoke the acceptance of civil service laws for the town of Norton police department for all ranks second okay motion a second uh Steve yes Trace yes Sandy yes Jo yes Bill yes Paul yes yes Zach yes Bonnie yes I2 yes 10 yes for article 21 thank you thank you Chief Clark safe FL chief thank you thank you um the next article is um from the Conservation Commission and this is article 12 and this is for repairs to the dam at let me get to it at shley Pond and um this is seeking um money from free cash uh for for that uh damn inspection at chly Pawn $37,000 and is John on I'm here can everyone hear me yes hi John how are you good how are you so um just to kind of give everybody a sense I'll probably just lump all these in together um as you may not be aware or maybe Ware the town currently manages two high Hazard dams identified by the state those are the chly and Norton Reservoir dams those two dams require um inspections and Reporting uh to the state on a yearly basis and they we alternate so we do one year Norton Reservoir and then the next year we do chartle so um these this $37,000 for chartle spans actually the extent of five years while the other one um for Norton it's the other article that one spans another five years so in tandem this is a 10-year kind of window that we're looking at and mean these inspections run from about $55,000 to $6,000 on average and that's only going to increase with inflation so we adjusted our numbers based on that over that window um just to kind of give everybody a sense but we need this money because we we need it to basically support consultants and we're required from the state to report on these high Hazard Dam so it's a requirement um so I I don't know anyone have any questions uh the 37,000 was it for both articles it's for one article so so for instance one article is for chartley and then the next one's going to be for Norton but I thought I'd touch on both okay so the 37,000 would be just for chartle for article 12 yes that's for a five year fiveyear period how much for Article 13 for Norton D it's the same 37,000 37 for both okay yeah it's the same engineer consultant we use to do s the on the ground field surveys and the reporting they generate probably a 50 page report to go to the state okay uh Zach you have your hand up yes I hope this doesn't become another hourong debate on this but uh same questions copy and paste that we had for the assesses we're looking for money for five years it's an annual thing why are we just funding this $5,000 for this year $5,000 for next year yada yada yada so John um just to explain Z question so be would it be 37,000 for five years you have to pay the 37,000 upfront now is that why we're asking for it in the lump sum now or I'm asking I'm asking for yeah sorry I'm asking for it in the some now because I don't know what the basically the the M I'm B basically following the same standard that was set before me by my predecessor with the processes um so I'm just following the same standards obviously I started two and a half years ago and I was waiting to get the reports from 2022 and 2023 uh for both the Norton and chartle dams to get a better sense as to kind of what the current status of them because I didn't know you know what the current status of them was um so I'm just following the same procedures that were set before me um but if there's a new way of that the town wants to you know work towards uh I guess setting up this procedure I'm all for it um but I'm just following kind of the procedure that was set in front of me so you know moving forward I mean if if if the town feels that it's necessary to go a different route or different kind of methodology I'm okay with that yeah I mean just given our limited budget capacity this year um you know if it's not money that you need upfront right now um I think the feeling from our board is that you know we would allocate we would transfer funds for one year this year and then each year going forward um for the five years Joe okay yes Joe and I I would say I agree with with everything you said unless there's some savings built into doing so right like if we if we get a discount for paying five years in advance or something like that then you know that's that's potentially a different story than doing it on a year-by-year basis but if it if it's just no savings uh and just trying to kind of Bank the money I think this board is is kind of leaning towards annual annual um requests yes can we buy five and get one free I can ask obviously I don't know if that's something that that they'd be willing to do but um I can find out more you see your next meeting's Thursday I mean I can definitely find out to see if they're willing to do something like that that'd be great any other questions or comments or yes one more M sure yes go um John can you explain to us what a high-hazard dam means so it is an um a a dam that is prone to uh flood potential and risk so for instance um if it were to breach it would cause a lot of drastic uh um destruction and U impacts to the downstream and Upstream residence okay it's that doesn't necessarily mean that it's in trouble it's just we want to make sure we're up on top of that so to to avoid any potential disaster right and that's kind of where we set up for the next future articles um that we we be looking at later later after this one uh with the repairs okay thank you madam chair yes Paul yeah John a quick question up in Maine they started getting rid of most of their um dams and letting Stu go back to their natural pre-dam state and most of the dams locally would put up because of either fire protection or being used by you know turning a whale for industrial purposes and stuff and I don't think that uh Charle for sure is being used for that but I don't think I don't think that either either the reservoir Charlie has any of those requirements other other than keeping it a pawn versus letting go back to more of a stream and I don't know if that's been looked into or not John so to answer that question I would say that you know there is the possibility of us looking to see if we can breach those dams I know from past reports and things of that nature to breach a dam uh can cost anywhere from the range of $4 million to $6 million uh and then to repair a dam is probably double that so all the engineering and kind of the things to work through obviously it's it's a grant kind of uh opportunity that I don't think I'd want to approach uh the town to undertake that at this time all right I I know that chly was drained not too many years ago even John so that's I I don't know why it was drained but it was drained in a not too distant past and just not sure you know letting the water out slowly down stream and call it a day whether or not that's a possibility or not or whether we just got to keep maintaining yeah I mean I don't know anything about that it could have been with relations to the management of the aquatic invasive species um that the town administers on a yearly basis but I can look into it of course thank you mam chair yes Zach John who manages these other dams for example you saw the S I'm sure you're aware of the situation down at barville with oh yes Dam there's a dam there I don't know who owns it and then you know up the up the road the residents are underwater who who's responsible for all that um that's a good question uh it depends on who you ask uh because the state says that the town owns the dam but I know that um our legal team has uh refuted that claim um and Mike units can probably attested this because he was here during that that whole uh I guess U legal kind of uh Arrangement that we've had but um what I will say is that there is an entity that owns the old twe building that is responsible for management of the dam uh and I'm gonna I'm going to basically leave it with that okay any other questions about article 12 or 13 do we want to table these so we can get some of these questions answered about paying Upfront for five years or just paying one year at a time Madam CH saying we don't have the money I would just I I would vote for fund one year and then come back to us next year mam chair yes Cody and the same thing there that we talked about with the assessors build it into the budget we know it's going to be an annual cost we can do it as the article this time but everything else we're talking about like we know these are annual costs build it into the budget anybody else want to vote on this tonight for one year to fund it for one year anyone feel differently Madam chair yes Cody John do you have the number of what it is each year or you just going to say 37 divided by five it's going to increase annually with the cost of the um consultant fees uh I think it's increased since we since I've started it has increased $500 every year um but I can give a annual if it's going to be an annual report I have the propos for this year so I can give you that number for this year I just don't have it on me right now okay then either way we'll have to table this because we don't have the amount that we'd recommend okay all right so 14 and 15 articles 14 and 15 next right y so these are far repairs um to the two dams 14 is for chartley Hond and Article 15 is the resir dam John so I'd like to just um make a I guess since I think the best thing to do is actually to uh take the Norton Reservoir repair article off the docket for this um because we do have a surplus of funds in the in in the event of an emergency with all the excessive rain and precipitation and damage uh from all the water that's going through there on a constant basis it's you know I my plan is to basically have uh a consultant go into the dam and basically do an assessment and evaluation to see what the damages are um but we do have a surplus of funds over $50,000 for the Norton Reservoir Dam right now so I think that one should be sufficient uh for to get at least get the assessment for the from the evaluator um but the the one for the chartle dam um we don't have any funds I think we may have about $600 in that account and I don't think we're going to be able to have uh anyone do an assessment or evaluation on that to see how much it's going to to cost um so I I honestly haven't really requested because I'm waiting till 20 till this summer when we basically have a dry season for an evaluator to go out there but I would probably say that you know someone to do an assessment and Engineering study to do that it's probably going to cost the range of about $155,000 um so that's really what I'd be looking for the CH chly Dam uh evaluation obviously we don't have any funds for any immediate repairs if there are any so I basically put a request an amount of 60,000 to kind of get it close to the initial fund that it was at uh because the engineer that pair group identified said that there were some issues with the SLO way uh near the Sinclair building along with some uh revetment kind of um Foundation walls that may um may need some uh some improvements um and that's going to be difficult to do when we've had the substantial amount of rain and uh constant uh discharge going through that area so I'm hoping that for instance it balances out this summer and we can kind of get a better sense to kind of see how much it's going to cost us I apologize I don't have that direct you know give you a figure number but um know the intent was to give you give it a $60,000 number just in case but I understand money's tight so um I guess the minimum that I'd be willing to basically request would be a $115,000 for someone to go in there and do an assessment and evaluation and then next year potentially come back to see um because the intent would be to do the work in 2025 to see when we can basically um see what the improvements could be so that way we don't have any sort of issues okay so you you are suggesting that we vote no action for Article 15 because you have um surplus of funds for the reservoir repairs but for article 14 you think it may cost upwards of 60,000 for repairs but for now you're asking for 15,000 to evaluate it to possibly do repairs next year correct I just want to be clear okay uh Zach you have comment question yeah I I guess I have a couple questions number one where did the 50,000 Surplus come from uh number two why do we have two separate accounts uh and I guess number three for Mike is there or the or uh James if he's still on here is there an accounting somewhere with all these various accounts in town because there's more accounts than we can count the Assessor's got one obviously John's got two here uh do we have uh I don't know how many other accounts there are with with funds that are sitting there that are funded from where it's just extremely confusing so I I will say is that um I think these accounts are set up specifically per um item because in the event that we were to get a grant opportunity to pursue some of this work it would need to be allocated to those separate accounts individually um and I think that's the reason why they were set up that way um but obviously Consulting fees and um Personnel fees you know that's something that we'd have to pay upfront uh the work and repairs obviously maybe we could get a grant opportunity for it's just there isn't one available at this time um that we can't that we that we can pursue um I've been looking basically almost every month to see what new grant opportunities are available to help the town out financially um but unfortunately I haven't found one yet for for Dam improvements and Dam maintenance so where did the 50,000 come from that you have already honestly I think it was it was before my time um but I believe it was uh under the the pretense of uh Jennifer Carino my predecessor who uh positioned it towards uh the town for for repairs and maintenance to Norton Reservoir in the case of an emergency similar to what I'm requesting as well I believe that's why we have a St Iz ation account but again back to Mike how many of these accounts are out there and what are the funds in them James would have that um so as John said these accounts can't be spent on anything else but what they're approved for um the money will stay in those accounts until if there's no purpose for them at if a Project's finished or there's no need for them then James would have them certified as free cash can you have James sends the committee a list of accounts and what's in them sure Madame chair yes James uh the Ching D repairs was funded out of the capital Improvement account and there's a balance of 44,6 49 there that was uh Article 15 of May 2017 any article that that is voted at town meeting has to be uh set up separately and one of the advantages of setting up an article is that the funds can be used for the purpose that it was voted for uh without having to worry about the June 30th deadline that applies to the regular budget uh a lot of these items that have to do with the dam repairs and um they're not really operating I don't think they are operating uh expenses they're more like Capital um and that's one of the reasons why they are set up as articles some of them I do agree that they probably could be better in the regular budget rather than listed as an article Madame chair yes Zach so James how much unspent money that has been appropriated I guess we're going back to 17 now excuse me sits in the capital fund that has been appropriated voted on and not spent are you asking for the whole town or just for the conservation department or well I'm curious of the whole town I mean it just sits there forever I mean well it doesn't sit there forever if a if a project is not completed and it's not ongoing every year uh right before the year ends I have departments send me a list of which accounts I can close back and if it was funded with capital Improvement funds the money goes back to the capital Improvement account if he was funded with the stabilization fund the money would go back into the stabilization fund ambulance account the same way um if it was free cash it will close back out to free cash um we I would have to look at the list give me one second see what I have but do it right now if you can send us send us a listing whenever you you know you have some time I'm just curious because I mean I I learned this year that there was money sitting in you know Parx and wck to do repairs on the park there for you know three four five years that was allocated never spent I don't know what else is out there all right I can I can send you the list of the outstanding articles for the past 10 years thank you no problem Madam chair yes Bill uh James did you say that 44,000 was in the Norton resir Dam or in the chartley pawn Dam give me one second uh it says shortly Dam repairs which which account is that James is it the 2-06 account that's the one uh the 64-17-5 I don't have that one I only have the 2-06 account if you're if you're telling me that we have $44,000 in one of the other accounts for chly Dam repairs then I I'll believe it um but I have another account here that is ends in 2-06 that one has that one has 698 92 yeah that's the one so you're telling me that there's two accounts for chly Dam repairs correct okay so then let's close out the one for 2-06 and I'll keep the 44,000 one okay and then for instance we can close out this article because I think $44,000 is enough to get me started with doing an evaluation for repairs and Madam chair I think that making my point here what I'm talking about here yeah so there's $44,000 in one Charlie account there's another 6,000 something in another Charlie account and then there's also 8 698 sorry I thought it said 6,000 then there's another 50,000 for the reservoir so now we're thinking that both articles can be voted no action no action I'm okay for this year all right Madam chair apologies for taking up your time no I'm glad we cleared this up Bill um this might go back to you know comments Zack was just making but we we have a a a i I guess I'll say a sizable amount of money in several accounts for issues on what's deemed high risk or whatever dams why isn't this like normal maintenance then it it's sounds like we're waiting waiting waiting saving saving saving and now H we should be checking something why isn't this being checked on an annual basis or or whatever it it I mean the money's there what are we doing with it man yeah Z I'm GNA try to be polite I'm going to try beite Madam cheer you can do it Zach bill they don't I mean I I don't want to be condescending and I don't want this come off the wrong way but they don't even know they have the money there bill I mean I'm speechless let me just I'm speechless Madame chair yes Cody this is this will be one of the few times you hear me Playing devil's advocate but I will do it I understand it and James and John and Mike correct me if I'm wrong these were allocated funds set aside in a separate bucket to be used as needed that for operating budgets year-over-year when it doesn't get spent it automatically gets certified as free cash the following year these like we have to vote on it but if it doesn't get spent it gets rolled into free cash these are set aside for the special purposes and if they aren't spent year-over-year they still sit there and can be used in future years and we only do a re-evaluation of those accounts once we determine the amount of time that they were set aside has gone past for whatever the purpose was and but that to Zach's point to Bill's point I would make the exact same point if it wasn't already made we have to know what the hell is out there like John you're the director of the Conservation Commission like you should know that that account exists that it's your money to spend on this stuff I it's it's crazy to me that we have accounts out there that we don't like we don't know that they're there because I'm assuming it took you some time to put these articles forward and you would have never put the Articles forward if you knew the money was there I wouldn't have been here tonight if I knew that this process was not the preferred method of the finance committee and I would have basically made sure that for instance I uh could attend my conservation meeting this evening and not not be here so um I will say that for instance obviously I'll take ownership and responsibility of not presenting a good um and wasting everyone's time this evening so I apologize for that and um you know obviously I'll make sure that this doesn't happen again and we can be more um I guess organized in the future so I apologize thank you I will say I don't see as a as a waste of time if we've uncovered this and we've corrected the issue as long as it's not an issue going forward like that's the whole point of this process is to ask the questions and make sure that it's taken care of so I John I I don't want you to feel like it was a waste of your time or a waste of our time because that's the whole point of this we just for whatever reason in years past the questions haven't been answered or haven't been asked and we you know budgets are tight we're we're on a Sho string and so the questions are being asked so I don't want you to feel like it was a waste of your time um or that it would have been better spent elsewhere other than obviously we don't need the Articles if you've got the money already yeah it sounds to me that the Articles uh you know 12 13 14 15 can all be struck um if that's um okay with the uh finance committee I think that's that's a good route because it seems that I have a sufficient funding moving forward so um I guess that's all I have and I thank you for your time this evening thank you John um question for you Mike yeah um I should know the answer I really should but I'm gonna ask the dumb questions so 12 13 14 15 they can't just be like taken out of the warrant at this point is it too late for that we have to vote on these no action or can you just take them out and we don't have to vote on them we can take them out okay so would everyone prefer we do that just take them out yes Madam chair yes just just just one question on on uh 12 and 13 um to John just to make sure the the funds that you know exist in those accounts you could fund articles 12 and 13 so those those expenses for doing the inspections could be funded from those other accounts so this year just so everybody's aware we can fund those from our budgeting items for personnel um outside consultant use so we have sufficient funds to budget them for this year so moving forward we'll make sure to have enough funds being requested for the next year which will be the next fiscal year so for the next two years well fiscal year 25 we budgeted for that as well so we are all set as we move forward with with those if that's the direction that we're going to move as a as with as part of the finance committee okay James do you have something uh yes John you say you have 50,000 in which account so we we have the Norton Reservoir repairs for the one ending and 5800 that one has 50 something thousand in it is that correct um I'm not sure which one that I don't see that you said ending in 5800 yeah 444 171 well that's a okay I got it give me one second I just want to triple check since we're here you said 444 no that's 54710 36 the first three digits are 444 yeah 444 yeah yeah you have 54710 36 there okay that's right and I and I also want to emphasize that I do send out a monthly management report to the board to the finance committee and all of these accounts are listed there yeah it it could have been an error um on my part with no I mean I mean so that the finance committee does have it too so not you know you have it but they also have it they have it in more more of a summary but they they do have the the um the account activity but what I'll do is I'm G to put it in Excel in a easier uh to read format and I'll send it out to the board that would be great James right okay all right thank you so much John I really appreciate you like I said I apologize to everybody this evening don't don't apologize I think that um this was well worth our time all right thank you everybody good night thank you madam chair yes Mike is anyone on from the Public Safety Committee and I know the chief isn't anymore so um if we could skip the established townwide speed limits and I know the assessor has been on um that under old business um Denise was coming back with information on theuh two articles that she had okay um the first article article 16 this is uh for the three-year Cy cyclical reinspection program and if you remember when Denise was on before there was a question um about funding this fully and what funds were remaining in the accounts for article 16 and 17 so I know that Denise and James have met on this and Denise hi everyone um hi Denise okay there I am okay so um I looked over the um accounts um so for for article which when we on um threee threee ccal yeah so it's kind of Comb so the account that I have right now is is also um the fivey year on top of it so what I just need for this year for the three-year cyclical is and in for the for articles 16 and 17 for those two together alls I really need this year is 13,000 if you wanted to split it up over the next few years okay but I'm still going to need um for FY 26 and FY 27 um I'm still going to need the 110,000 per year for those two years going forward so how you want to put that in the budget or an article going forward I'm not sure what you want to do so for FY 25's budget you need 13,000 for article 16 and 13,000 for article 17 no just 13,000 combined for both okay combined because what it happened again out Street remind you that the reason why I have money in that account is because during covid we couldn't finish doing the um cyclical program which is inspecting the homes um so that money was there we have been using it slowly over the last couple years I've been doing some inspections that's why I don't have all that money in there I have been using some of it so but I um but the 13,000 would be great to finish that off Madam chair okay yes yeah uh Denise can you break that down on a per article basis for us because we'll need to vote those separately so what I would do is I would just go 13,000 for um article 16 okay and Madam chair strike 17 yes Mike that was that was gonna be my question we can just remove 17 from the warrant yeah anyone have questions for Denise Madam chair yes Cody so this is one of those hidden budgets that's separated aside we're talking about cont like we'll fund this and then it becomes a budget item for next year but within that account that's for three-year cyclical and fiveyear recertification so the the funds that are set up in that account are being used for both threeyear cyclical reinspection and 5year recertification program just just to be clear I want I don't want to get into an issue where we put it into an account and that account was only supposed to be for the three-year reinspection program not re certification or vice versa like if that account is set up and it can handle both then then do we need to modify article 16 to say threee cyclical reinspection and five your recertification or yeah that's that's a good point Cody Mike what do you what do you think about that do we have to reward this article 16 to Encompass both programs denisea James on your program Denise um I didn't talk to James about that one James are you on what do you think I am really sorry I was working on the well what's the question so so that account with the 97,000 in it I don't have it in front of me um can we combine the three-year CLE goal with the fiveyear recertification um it can be done through a town meeting vote it would have to be voted at town meeting to combine the the funds Madam chair chair yes Cody I I think I'm hearing that they are two separate accounts and they are not combinable so it sounds like we're going to have to transfer a certain amount of money for 16 and then a certain amount of money for 17 and not strike 17 correct M James um the uh try the other one only has $76 in it is that the one you're talking about well James when you were working um in had said that she has money remaining in the account so all she needs is 13,000 for the three-year cyclical reinspection program and we were going to remove article 17 the fiveyear recertification program okay because the the 100 the 97,000 is under the fiveyear certification already okay it was voted uh at the October special town meeting in April of 2018 and that 97,000 would not be able to be used for the three-year cyclical reinspection program um I would let it I would let it go I would let it go through yeah it's almost the same thing they don't do the three year anymore that the state changed the guidelines so it's every five years now so so I will let allow it yeah Madam chair yes C this is getting really convoluted In My Head Start yeah so I think with the I'm sorry I think where the confusion was is that we have a three-year contract and I think he just worded it as three-year cycal program because we have to do cycal every single year where it's a three-year contract that's just how the um vendor worded it so I think that's where the confusion is and the three-year contract were at the end of the three years and so this is reupping for another contract year this is the new contract we just got this is for the for 25 through 27 and we've got $97,000 in the account right left over and how much was the total that we needed uh for each year is 110,000 just needed 13,000 more to be able to so I just need 13,000 for this year the 25 okay Joe so does that mean that we don't need article 16 but we need article 17 since you're right yeah okay we get it right I I'm also confused why do we have a three-year contract on a fiveyear recertification so the contract is for three years the fiveyear certification is um that's what the state is require we used to do a three-year certification then they changed it in 2020 to 5 years so even though we're doing we still have to do cyclical program every single year but because he gave the our contract with him is always a three-year contract he's just splitting that up over the three years toic part of it does that make sense okay so it's it's $110,000 a year for the next three years the contract is Inked and we will owe $110,000 a year for the next three years until the contract is reup and it's a that's part of the fiveyear certification is this part yeah this is part of the 5year certification then for the next one well that'll in the next after these three years then that next threee one will be part of the next fiveyear certification probably the end of it so I think we ask on the last time you were on we asked we're not getting a discount for signing a three-year deal um no I don't think we are but also the C systems there's only a few out there um and if we didn't stay with this cam system it would cost thousands and thousands of dollars to bring in a new company and move everything over okay so so I mean we can do a one year it doesn't matter but it's easier just to do the three okay and so just the the last point I want to ask uh James so if we if we take 13,000 and stick it in this account and we it's funded to 110,000 and next year we build in the line item into the budget like we've asked so that we're accounting for this recurring expense year-over-year in the budget process whatever is left in this account at year end would then be have to be recertified as free cash or could the balance of it be pulled over and we would only need to fund the line item budget for the difference between what's remaining and and the amount that's needed that would be up to the finance committee to decide how they want to handle it um if there is any money left at the end of the year I can close it out to free cash and it will not be available and then um we'll just do the line item budget for next year or we can leave the balance in the article account and only fund the difference for the budget I mean that's you're picking your poison at that point okay thank you James no problem okay so the process is we are striking 16 and recommending 17 with a transfer of 13,000 from free cash is that what we have landed on Mike that's it yep okay mam chair yes Joe I make a motion that we Rec recommend that we move uh transfer from free cash the sum of $133,000 for the fiscal year 2025 5year recertification program second Motion in a second Steve yes Grace yes Sandy yes no yes Bill yes Paul yes Cody yes Zach yes Bonnie yes I2 me yes 10 yes for article 17 okay thank you Denise thank you everyone have a good night have a good night thanks Denise thank you all right so let me uh share my screen again like did you say we were gonna take up the townwide speed limits at a future meeting is that what you said earlier yeah so the chief can be on okay all right if you if you don't mind that that's fine I just wanted to make sure I heard you right yeah like what article number is that that is article 18 but it'll change now that we're uh yeah but I can go back to the the the warrant that I had and it'll be okay Madam chair yes Cody um I know he's not on here to talk about it but can I ask what's the point of setting of speed limit when we have no traffic enforcement officers on duty ever never like why I think ask the chief when we I mean we could save we could we we could save the chief a lot of time coming in here and talking to us about an article that's unenforcable because we don't have anybody on the road to enforce it I'd like to hear from the chief myself before we vote on something like this personally Madam chair yes Zach I just comment on this because if you have the meeting if he's here next week and I'm not here um this is already gone to town meeting it was already it's already been debated it was already rejected for even part of the reasons uh Cody Cody uh discussed so I'm not sure why we're bringing it back it's like double jeopardy uh it's a complete in my view wasted article that's completely unenforceable and I'm not even sure why it's coming back but uh in OB my vote would be no next week okay mam CH noted Zack who said that Joe that was me um I'm looking at the article now and and I do remember voting on this at a previous town meeting and I don't honestly know if the wording is any different but this this article is specifically trying to accept the provision of Massachusetts General Law chapter 90 section 17 C so I don't know if that's a difference from for uh but that's the the rest here anyone else on article 18 does anyone else feel they want to vote on this tonight based on I'd rather wait everything said yeah I'd rather wait but if the majority does not want to wait and we'll get someone from traffic safety on yeah that would be great all right do you want to go to budgets oh yeah all right trying to get there all night oh yeah um so the next budget up is uh the select board and uh for the select Board office uh there's one staff person um and we have some part-time wages uh to fill in when the staff person's out um and then uh the expenses um you know of $3 $600 same as last year is the request Madam chair oh um yes Bill might we might have a Mike how did how did salaries go down um the salary is actually an increase well from Department request to yours that one down right so my request is a smaller smaller increase inre than originally the P request that that's not a contract no okay so the incentive pay is not part of the contract Mike no there's no it's not that's what your request is lower there recomendation I mean yeah all right anyone else on this like board budget I'm ch yes Zach uh what is the function of this position of this position uh so this position um the staff person in this position is the office administrator for the select board so um creates the agenda for the select board meetings creates all the packets for the select board meetings um handles all licensing hand that's um done by the select board common Vic licenses alcohol licenses um handles um workers comp claims that come in with mega um that handles um all the work that's been done on Acquisitions for the bike trail um schedules all the rooms and um especially when we're in the the new town hall the meeting rooms and things like that um handles all the parking permits um handles all the payments for Street lining Municipal Building legal postage um trying to think of other things um sounds like a hch parch position Mike yeah handles workman's comp claims isn't there an HR person to do that traffic lights I mean I don't even get this position I mean it's what whatever you all the municipal building um work um you know all the payments for all those that is done through this position um all the payments for the construction on the two buildings are reviewed in process by this position Madam chair and also on these budgets you know you see this and you say Okay office supplies $556 32 so what do we do when the paper delivery comes to town hall you say uh you're allocated 27 sheets of paper three pencils and one eraser why wouldn't we have one line item budget office supplies town hall or telephones what's everybody get their own phone bill you have one telephone bill telephones Town Hall one page what is that that telephone Communications is that cell phones what is that is that just like the phone system and then you split it amongst the departments in the town hall um that is a good question the telephone Communications James would you know what that line on him is I think my point is Mike why don't we have all these as fixed expenses to the town hall this is stuff that everybody uses everybody uses the phones everybody uses the paper uh and everything else that's there Madam chair yes James that expense is for a cell phone and one of the reasons why uh office supplies and some of those expenses are listed separately is we need to account for each department uh total cost if we lump it all into one bucket then we wouldn't know what the true cost of running the selectman's the select board's office or the accounting or Treasurer or accessors you know it would be all loed into one account I don't I don't have a problem with that either but that's just the way it is in the whole state of Massachusetts so I have a question Mike so it looks like overall this budget's going to increase by less than 1% the expenditures here now were there turn backs last year from the expenditures because I see you've definitely decreased several of these line items um are you basing your decreases recommendations here based on like the turn backs that came in last year for these expenditures um we are and also just that we don't have any choice so we have to uh cut back all the line items anything that could be considered somewhat discretionary Madam chair yes Bonnie um I two well one question and a comment the question is what this person um works in the office like 9 to-5 or whatever the the office hours are Mike yes so can you explain the reason why they need a cell phone um the cell phone the per this person also um does the select board meetings so um she's not in attendance at the meetings but she's attending virtually um so I know that we've had communication going back and forth with that and this was also uh something uh that was helpful during covid okay um the other thing I was just going to say is um I don't remember exactly what the amounts are for the admins and other departments but every year I feel like I'm struck by the difference between the salary for this department and others um so I just wanted to go on record saying that this seems high for an admin position to me um and again I don't know exactly what the other are maybe we're going to get to a few of them but in comparison it seems high has this position been compared to other Town Halls Mike as far as the select boards admin it has it has and um in the salary survey that was done recently um the range for this position was anywhere from 56,500 to7 9,100 and the current average um for this position was uh 70,500 Madam chair yes Cody do we have a relativity point for those various ranges because the 79,000 for like city of Taunton where their budget is multiples of ours or you know no this this salary this this salary survey was uh done uh using comparable communities based on population and uh Revenue Madam chair yes Sandy Mike do you still have the the results of that like a is there a summary of that that that we could take a look when was that done Mike how many years ago was recent right this year it was this year okay any other comments questions on the select board budget Madam chair yeah Joe um sort of to to go with what Bonnie was saying um it does seem odd to me that so many of our town salaries are below average yet our admins are above average um I don't know how we address that um but that seems off-kilter to me yeah you gotta get you got to pay to get good people that doesn't seem to be our policy in other places though right well documented we can't afford it so that's one of the reasons why I bring it up is that that there is such a discrepancy that we're paying this person quite a bit in relative to their range it seems so I'm just curious if the same is true for the other folks that are in admin positions relative to the range for their position Madam chair yes Tracy Mike if she is not Union what can you explain to me the longevity pay and the incentive pay yeah longev longevity um is in the wage and salary plan and then incentive pay is for other duties um you know as as the amount of Duties increased um different things that she was given in sent to pay for that don't fall under her job right so as was said earlier workers comp is something normally that would have been handled by an HR person but we don't have HR so this that fell into this position and also the energy aggregation program management okay thank you yeah Adam chair yeah Zach Mike would excuse me would you be better served to have a part-time secretary or whatever this is for the select board and then either move this position or move this person out of that position and have her whatever call it what you want HR to streamline the process instead of having basically a hodge podge of things here I mean it just doesn't make sense if you need an HR person well isn't I mean this really isn't an HR position just one aspect of it the workers comp it just sounds like a position that we've thrown all kinds of we throw the kitchen sink at here well we have nobody to do this so do this we don't have anybody to do that to do that I don't know it just seems weird to me I'm not I don't think that's how this is how they do it in other towns I I wouldn't think so oh they definitely do in small towns I mean if you're larger and you have money like man fail does you're able to have an HR person you're able to have a finance director you're able to have a social media person we just don't have that so unfortunately we get stuck handling these things all right anyone else on this budget we'll move on to the next one let me see um next budget is Town manager um there's two positions here myself and my assistant and um the expenses um of $ 43,800 anyone question comments on this budget Madam chair yes Joe um Mike on the the survey that you mentioned earlier where does the town uh manager admin fall in that range um the range was 955 to 1337 that's for Town manager or assistant to the town manager assistant to the town manager mam chair yes Sandy what kind of cuts that number of 22 uh 22,000 for the charges and expenditures what what will you have to cut in order to get it down to that number um one of the main things is the contracted Services um we've cut that from 30,000 to 10,000 and the main thing in that was um the funds to hire an HR consultant when we need an HR consultant and um any uh Consultants we need if we needed help uh on any projects uh that if we're looking for Grants and needed help with those grants that's the biggest cut are those things that you've used the last couple years the consultant services um that's what we used um for the salary survey and uh we also used uh the consultant services for uh some policies employee policies we hired an HR professional for that so last year you spent the 30,000 last year we in fy22 we expended 76 7,650 23975 um as of December of this current fiscal year um 3900 so you don't expect that you'll be spending the 30,000 no no we'll have to we haven't paid for the salary survey yet so that'll be an expense but any other questions for the town manager budget Madam chair yes Tracy so Mike is this position Union because I see her salary went down too okay it's not is so the incentive pay also is for duties not in her regular posted position yeah like what would that be that what is it you're asking 9,000 or 8500 would be extra sure so um 3500 I know is um she prepares the town report so that's done outside her regular hours um and then uh 2000 something is um for the drug alcohol testing um management of that program and management of the Federal Motor Carrier safety administration program um all part of the drug testing program for drivers with CDL licenses okay thanks you're welcome Madam chair yeah Cody uh just a a question on um like the HR side of this since it just came up on the the previous budget item as well if we don't have an HR person an HR department how are we managing things like confidentiality um you know private information all of those things if we're spreading that out over multiple personel that are taking like everyone's taking a random piece of the HR function aren't we opening ourselves up to some serious issues whenever it comes to confidentiality and personal information and Hippa and all of those things well the people that handle it all know about the Hipp regulations and a lot of the personal information is all kept by one individual in the treasurer's office M chair yeah Joe um perhaps I'm being a dead horse here but I I want to understand how we justify a 4% raise for an admin when we're looking at a 1% across the board budget [Music] increase um well basically because uh one you have to stay competitive and two um the union positions most received between a step and a raate and a cost of living they're all 5% so that is a union position this isn't no that's why we're able to do less than the union position okay Madam chair yes Cody um why are we utilizing the union positions as the Baseline for non-union positions when we're considering the raises if they're if they want to be Union they should be Union if they're not Union then I mean I I don't understand the rationale there if it's not a union position well you only have uh seven people that aren't in the union and um if those people aren't going to see things close to what the unions get it's just isn't right mam chair yeah I I don't know what everybody else got for a pay raise this year personally I got 3% for cost of living um I'm not Union so it's not built into a contract that I have but when we're talking about budgets across the board and and we're looking at 1% for everyone and we have minimum set by by Union then we have to follow what the union gets [Music] and it just I know it's it's going to suck for the seven people that are non-union if they don't get as much as the union positions got and the the contract obligations there but you know pennies matter at this point Madam chair yeah bill um I I don't know if we wanted delve into the raises and not raises of of Union versus non-union um I hear everybody I think the bigger picture is again you assume 3% growth raises steps longevity whatever far exceed 3% that's the issue that that you know override no override you'll reset but then you fall behind immediately the next year because raises and steps and and this and that and the other thing are five seven 8% when when you actually do the dollars and Personnel is probably 75% of the budgets so I don't want to waste time debating who gets what raise but I think the bigger picture is this is not sustainable and and when it comes to negotiating this stuff and whatnot you know let's be realistic you you can't give a 5% raise if if your if your income grows 3% it doesn't work right so this isn't considered when the contract negotiation happens from the beginning Union non-union whatever um it doesn't seem like it's considered the fact that the limits we're in with our budget and here we are Adam chair yes Zach not to go back in circles but that was my point earlier when they said the my analogy about the alcoholic meing another fix that's the same Vicious Circle that's what our override will not fix the problem until we fix the problem mam chair yes Sandy um you know I first I think that this steps and lanes and the contractual this is this is not an ort thing right this is Statewide um probably Countrywide right I think I think everybody across the country does these things um and I think you know again you gota you got to remain competitive if if you're not going to remain competitive with your salaries was already a teacher shortage there's I think police and fire probably have shortages there's a lot of um our public sector positions are fighting for the same few people um small whole and I think that that has to be a consideration as well when you're negotiating contracts no yeah I agree with that too Sandy but we are having to live within our means right and if that means we can't be a competitive Town that's what Norton wants right Madam chair yes bill you know Ju Just to put the cherry on top um you know that's how that's how companies go bankrupt I mean you know XYZ company pays X or you know so oh I gotta pay the same yet my Revenue isn't the same I'm out of business so I I again I hear it but the reality is we're not you know Mansfield we're not Foxboro we're not Boston we're Norton our resource are what they are so we can't we can't just fall back and say oh well the union says we got to pay X if we can't afford it we can't afford it and that's the bottom line and there are companies and towns and whatever some pay up here some pay down here that's just the way it is and what's happening is just our expenditures are getting squeezed squeezed out to nothing so our services our programs will get squeezed out to nothing in order to pay these salaries and these contractual increases every year Madam chair yes Andy I companies also lay off right when when they they don't decrease everyone's salary by 50% they they'll lay off and I think that's again to your point what Norton's choosing Norton has to choose do you want to continue to attract quality teachers um do you want smaller class sizes and and that's a choice that the taxpayers have to make um if if they don't then you know I I don't think we can't start decreasing salaries it's not realistic so I think you know the class sizes are going to go up and that's what people are choosing right now so I don't know that you know to to blame um contractual increases on the problem we've never passed an override is is not really get we're norn if if we want to choose to be somebody who doesn't attract good teachers then that that's the choice we're going to make Madame chair yes Zach I I hear what s's saying but we've never passed an override like like that's some kind of obligation that we have to do I mean the system was set up two and a half% plus growth that was the system there's nothing that says we have to pass on override I think what people keep comparing this Norton to and not to go back to the override thing again but they keep saying oh it's Easton does this Foxboro does this Mansfield does this guess what we're not eating any of those this is a blue car Community people that want to live in their homes in retirement on fixed income they don't want to be Mansfield if they wanted to be Mansfield they'll live in Mansfield they live in nor they want low cost of living controlled Financial discipline and you're absolutely right there's nothing wrong with laying off people I've been running businesses since I was 25 years old I lay people off all the time then I have my group of people that have worked with me for 30 years that's people get shocked oh my God we laid off a jamor okay I do that as of course of business as a cycle you know it gets busy it gets slow if you don't make those adjustments you're gone so I'm not sure what you know what the the big shock is that we may have to lay some people off it's so beyond I mean and not to be rude but I think the people in local government have spent their whole lives in municipal government and they've never worked in the private sector to say this is normal cycle it's a normal cycle revenues come revenues go you make adjustments it's no big deal Madam chair yes Sandy that's what I'm saying Zach is that the the choice is not to lower everyone's salary the choice is that we have like we have to lay off and that we have bigger class sizes so there's nothing to say that we have to compete class sizes with the you know towns around us so I I get I'm pointing out that we're talking about the problem being um you know all about the contracts and the raises and and we shouldn't give any raises and we should you know knock everybody I know in some cases I've heard people suggest that the teachers should give back their raises I think the reality is that that there are if we don't want to increase our taxes that's the choice then Cuts will have to be made right layoffs will have to happen just like in a company so I'm not disagreeing with that I'm saying that's the reality and that's what people are choosing right now and I agree with you and when those contracts when you sit down with those unions whether it's the fire department the police department the school department they need to understand okay what percentage raise is do you want if that's what you want understand that part of your members are going to be laid off because we're stuck on a prop two and a half I mean and I don't you know so these all happen in executive sessions I don't know what goes on but I mean that those conversations should be had with the unions you want 5% 6% 7% for your teachers that's fine but x amount will have to go to to to fill that Gap because we don't have the revenue but I don't know what goes on behind the scene I mean that's would be the logical discussion to have behind the scenes with these people Madam chair yeah Cody uh if we if we set aside the discussion about the the union jobs and the contractual obligations and all that stuff the only way that you can cut on that is is Lay offs I get it I don't understand why in any other sector Zach you're you're your business private like it all of those everywhere else in the world if you have a down year you're not giving 5% increases when cost of living increases across the board are 3% you certainly don't give it whenever you're subject to a 2 and a half% Max like everyone else here we're talking about a 1% across the board if it's not a contractual obligation where are we coming up with the 5% increases 4% increases for non-mandatory contract like there's no contract that says 4% 5% we don't just get to go well all the union ones get four or 5% that's great they they get 4 5% and their unions so that means if we can't afford it then someone gets laid off why are we using that as the Baseline here for non-union jobs to say Well they're getting 5% under Union you're not Union but you work next to them so you get 5% too it it doesn't make sense those those contracts may have been negotiated in different time whenever there was expectation or they had lower headcount or whatever the heck it was but you can't use that as the Baseline here to say well everybody gets the same whether you're Union or not Union because we want it all to be fair sorry it sucks we're talking about laying off 40 people from the schools we're talking about not filling positions that are you know needed by people in the town why are we in the same conversation talking about giving increases that are not mandated beyond what what the expectation would be if you only get a two and a half% revenue increase you can't give more than a 2 and a half% expense increase like it just it doesn't make it any sense to me Adam chair yeah Zach Cody I'm sorry but I don't agree with you at all there just because you're not in the union I mean so it's all right to give a 7% to a union member and not to a non-union member I mean why did you negotiate a 7% to begin with if under that argument or whatever it may be it should have never been negotiated when you went sat down with the teachers union the fir fighter Union and the other 20 unions in town say it's a 3% budget we're not having any negotiation above 3% end of story and you want to now isolate seven people that it's not even a rounding era now you want to pick on seven people out of the 500 that work in in the town I don't agree with you there I think you treat everybody with dignity and if it's good for the union it's good for these people you should have never done it with the unions and you shouldn't do it with these people either okay so are we moving on do we want to have further discussion on non-union salaries versus Union salaries and implications of raises okay all for now moving on to finance committee look at this one big biggie Madam chair yes Sandy U Mike I noticed that one of the um requests for the reserve for a transfer was for um finding it for the woman who does the minutes for um yeah for for Finn for finance committee so I that you're also decreasing here is how is that going to work um I'm hoping that a lot of her hours this year were getting caught up on a lot of old minutes and uh then next year we won't need it as much what was that Reserve transfer for what was what amount Mike um 1,100 Madam chair yeah Bill uh Mike what is this in what does this individual make an hour oh I don't have that in front of me well I'm I'm just trying to do the math yeah if we're doing you know how many hours do we in a year meetings have been long yeah I'm not sure that's gonna be enough yeah yeah I'll look at I'll look at that um bill I don't have her hourly rate here was in the position for the full fiscal year last year Mike she was she was she there as of July one last year I'm trying to remember I think she was so it was a full year that5 Madam chair yeah Joe I want to say we started catching up on minutes while Bonnie was still chair so I think yeah there before but Madam chair at say 25 bucks an hour that's 40 hours and and then you're out of out of time to do minutes so right I'm thinking what shot meetings next yeah right I'll double check it Madame chair yes James to answer the question she's going to be making $23 and 28 cents an hour for fiscal year 25 thank you J yes so that's good for what 45 hours of minutes out of out of a full year our average meeting is at least two hours yeah think we need to do the math on that one it might be a little 22 minut 22 meetings how many meetings do we have I don't know it feels like a zillion but all right I'll review that next is accounting accounting and in James's Department there's two full-time staff people and uh part-time and his expenses have gone down a little bit are actually the same the uh only increase uh purchases of services um that's for the audit I have questions on the accounting budget hey hearing nothing right legal next is legal um and uh right now my request is the same as it was in fy4 and as of December we had spent 32,000 do you suspect we're spending the 70,000 by the end of f school year and then some we've got a reserve fund transfer oh yeah I thought I saw that Madam chair yes Cody what's driving the uh legal costs Mike um I think right now it seems to be um aals of planning board decisions for the most part we haven't really had much other than that in any way related to not having a town planner I think it could be I think I I'm hoping that uh there are a couple of those that would have been avoided if uh the town planner was there did I hear correctly that we are getting the town planner back um Tuesday next Tuesday nice all right um so Mike is is it realistic to assume that if we already over budget that we won't need that 880,000 that was requested obviously we can't so th this year we did have some contract track s finishing up and uh we had the Civil Service stuff with the uh Town Council so next year we don't have any contracts and uh I'm hoping that will balance it out Madam chair yeah Cody Mike you mentioned that the um what do you call it civil service that was related to fixing all of that for the fire department if we pass it for Police Department are we we're not building that into the to the budget here assuming it passes right um I'm assuming that's going to pass and I don't see any issues with it the unions were all on board but that I mean Do's a 70,000 account for that you just mention that like the current year why we went over was yeah having having Town Council review um things to do with civil service and the policies that we're going to be [Music] followed all that's done okay thank you okay we have municipal building so on Municipal Building um we have purchases of services um that is for the cleaning company and the shredding Mansfield shredding that we use um for the most part electricity we're hoping um we have credits now of available from the Hill Street landfill and we're looking to reapportion those we have uh National Grid and um our energy consultant working on that um and then ProPay natural gas um the town hall is heated with natural gas now when we go into our new building we won't um have that and even if that building the Town Hall's not torn down um we'll be able to reduce what we keep the heat on obviously um everything else is pretty standard with the trash and copy or expenses what's that repair maintenance office equipment line item that looks like it was stried yeah it was zero out um we we haven't if you look um in 24 we appropriated 11,500 didn't spend anything and uh so I I just don't see that we're going to need that and repair maintenance of equipment that that is um the boilers um and elevators anything like that for the current building correct y mam chair yes Cody Mike when does the uh when are we supposed to be opening the new town hall um I would say by September maybe August but I more likely September so we'll get a full annuals bill for heating yeah pretty pretty close 10 months and is that is that uh building also electric heat it it is it's all all electric there is no way in the world that our budget right now for electricity on the smaller building it's at 30,000 and we're going to heat that much larger building for $35,000 using electric there's no freaking way know and we know that the electricity costs more than gas because we we've already reviewed this for the for the senior center and like the increase that went up for projection on the electricity for the new Senior Center like it's there's just no way that's why I said the savings is through the credits we're getting on the solar Adam CH yeah Zach the entire town hall Cody is energy efficient heat pumps uh throughout the whole place and it's also spray foam insulation so it's supertight so I think the net costs because this current Town Hall you're in is basically a Civ and everything leaks out of it and everybody's got a space heater under the desk and everything else I think you're going to be surprised that the utility costs in total with heat pumps anybody that's installed any over the last couple years particularly these new Mitsubishi style systems uh we'll see a huge uh savings Madam chair those credits Mike for that we're going to be getting is that going to be an annual thing or is it just going to be for this next year no it'll be annual because um with the schools have all the solar panels now um some some of the credits were going to those buildings so now there'll be credits available that we'll put on this building okay M chair yeah Joe so two things one Mike will we have the opportunity to put solar panels on the roof of the Town Hall no no okay uh the other thing is just in general like unfortunately this first year the budget's a real guess right like we've got no Benchmark uh for what things are actually going to cost so you know I get that you're you're doing the best you can with you know back of the well I shouldn't say back of the envelope but you know spreadsheets and so on trying to figure things out um yeah we did get some good numbers um The Architects hired a consultant to give us some good numbers so okay yeah I you know I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we come in under and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we come in over because this first year is g to be the Benchmark and we just got to figure it out okay Madam chair yes bill um given that this is my favorite subject this this year um Mike or James should the old Town Hall remain is there a way to have a separate budget old building versus new building just so we know what the carrying costs are of the old I would have to check into that I'm not sure how the meters are set up between the fire department and the town hall but it would be interesting to see I I I think it's worth our investigation to you know if if the thing is gonna stay standing we should know what it's costing us year in and year out for heat even though it's going to be minimal for you know any cost to it maintenance repair because it again we advertised it as falling apart so we're gonna still have to maintain it um so I I don't think it should be melded into you know like the new town hall CH uh Zach and touching on Bill's uh there they should also probably somebody should probably do the math and say if it's $100,000 a year to maintain it and if we borrow the money to tear it down and that only costs $50,000 a year we're maybe better off to borrow the money and tear it down but somebody needs to do that math I don't know what's going to be left over from the building projects that can be used offset as well anyone El Municipal Building okayy hearing nothing we have zoning board all right hopefully my battery doesn't die oh no one way to bring the meeting in short yes yours are the computer mic my batteries one all right there we go I'm charging all right so do you want to do what do we got the reserve fund transfers yeah I think you have Finance oh no there's miscellaneous Town officers and board expenses finance committee zoning board tree Warden Memorial and committee has a separate okay I don't know I guess you'll explain well we did the finance committee right yeah it's listed again under this m miscellaneous Town officers and board expenses see if I can find that all right so um under this we just have the finance committee which we already talked about the 300 for the zoning board Mike you're not sharing just so you know I knew that Joe you just testing us I get it see if we're awake all right can you see it now yes yes yeah the finance committee we already talked about I think you may have talked about uh the zoning board 300 before the tree Warden 2000 and uh the memorial invents 1,000 $2,000 request those are for the parades yes so would we not be able to have one of the parades um I think last year I mean if you look 2022 we spent 830 um 647 in 2023 um so okay I think I think we hopefully we'll be okay with the 1,000 all right anybody have questions on on this and then Peter has his hand up I wanted to see Peter you have something to say or a question when when is the um where's the where's the but your meeting gonna be on Thursday it's gonna be at the yell School our meeting is at the yell school gym on Thursday Peter at seven o'clock I will be there taking the notes and putting them on my Facebook page oh that's very helpful thank you thank you that's why I'm the best all right anyone else have comments or questions on these miscellaneous budgets hearing nothing we will go move on to the reserve fund transfer requests that we've already heard so much about okay Madam chair uh Sandy can I just ask I know we had gotten the 1% budget kind of um late before our last meeting I feel like there's a lot of the changes that we haven't talked about on there um is is there is that the next meeting like when are we gonna we're gonna start Mike correct me if I I'm wrong but we will start after we're finished I guess going through all the budgets maybe even starting next week next Wednesday we'll start going through the line items for the budgets and putting our recommendations in correct Mike so that's when we would kind of hash out 1% figures and right versus what the department requests were and what's getting cut and okay I the biggest question I had because you mentioned Mike earlier that the that you know we need have a new town planner I don't know if the you said the starting so obviously the contract's been signed is the number that you have in the budget right now for that um sufficient or does that need to be adjusted now that we've actually hired someone um I think I already put it I'll I'll double check I I think I already took count of it in my one the budget that I did for the 1% okay yeah you can double check I'm almost positive it's in there but thanks Sandy mam chair yes Z is there before you get to the next thing is there an agenda for the Thursday night meeting I have not seen one yet there I want me to just basically tell you it's the agenda will be um I'll be talking about the 1% budget and the effects on the general government side and the superintendent will talk about um the 1% budget and the effects on the school side um and attorney Goldberg will talk about um the override process and go over that and answer any questions and then the last item obviously would be to talk about any um possible override and an amount is anybody Alo an amount hasn't been there's no a proposal for an amount at this at this time that's going to be presented or is that a debate where I think that would be up for debate as far as what I can tell for a debate the superintendent and I uh met today were working on scenarios and see how it plays out over through 2029 and um yeah that would be great to see we'll probably be sending those out to everyone Wednesday so you'll have those to look at and and Mike seeing we're now working on 25 budget uh if this was to go to ballot I mean is is it is it even too late to do anything for the 25 budget when would you even collect those taxes let's say it did pass something did pass the tax bills are out when would you ever collect you're not going to see those revenues till when so this would be that it's the fy2 budget so if you voted a $3 million override the levy limit goes up by 3 million so that would be on all the when the tax bills go out the fall it would be on there so is there cut off dates that that would have to happen I mean for an election um we just uh have to have it in place by July one yeah my understanding is the if it passes a town meeting on May 13th the ballot vote would be 35 days after that so in June y prior to July one and the attorney will go over that whole process yes yes hi Joe uh well she's going to go over it on Thursday I won't bother to ask I was going to ask about the 35 days if that's like a before after exactly but covered on Thursday have those questions ready and have a a mount in your head uh James yeah the tax rate set after the October town meeting uh sometime in November so usually what happens is the final bills go out uh right after Christmas I would assume those will include the override amount on it and the first two quarters will be estimated taxes like they are every year all right Reserve fund transfers all right so get to them so one Reserve fund transfer is a request for $1,100 um for the finance committee account and um right now there's $383 remaining okay anyone have questions about this transfer from free cash $1,100 for finance committee account hey hearing none chair would entertain a motion to recommend the reserve fund transfer Madam chair yes Joe I make a motion that uh we recommend a transfer from the reserve fund of $1,100 for finance committee expenses Steve yes Tracy yes yes sir Joe yes Bill yes Paul yes Cody yes Zach yes Bonnie yes I me yes mam chair yes s me I said Sandy I thought I heard I thought I heard okay no I thought you were waiting for treace I didn't hear my name sorry oh no yeah I did say it twice okay you are a yes though correct okay all right 10 yes for 1100 for finance committee all right the next is uh request for 33,000 in legal services so this is in addition to what did they have last year was it 70,000 or 80,000 70,000 any questions on the 33,000 Reserve fund transfer for legal Cody uh Cody Joe uh I was just trying to pull back up the the legal because the the amount expended currently is 32 334 on a budget of 70,000 do we know that that's going to 103,000 um we don't but what we did is we took um what we've spent so far this year and averaged it out over the year to get to the final number is there a reason we have to pre fund this now when we still have 30 almost 38,000 sitting in the account Madame shair yes James there is only 5,684 38 in the account I don't know are you looking at the through December I he's looking December 23 yeah got it okay enough said thank you James anyone else on the reserve fund transfer for legal Madam chair yes Joe make a motion that we transfer $33,000 from the reserve fund for Legal Services second May Steve yes Tracy yes yes no keep cutting out on Sandy I think unless I missed it I heard Sandy that time though I just I saw your lips move but I didn't hear you so I just said yes I'm also sorry that you're not hear was just me no I couldn't hear you everyone else hear me all right Joe I'm a yes okay Bill yes Paul yes Cody yes Zach yes Bonnie yes I a yes 10 yes all right thank you now a date for the public hearing have you oh that was all the reserve fund just those two yeah the only other one I the only one other one I have is I I can bring it up later I just want you to think about it again with an open mind is Animal Control oh yeah that was what 8,000 yeah and we voted no you voted no we did yeah yeah I mean he he's like police and fire he doesn't know what's kind of come up and uh you know I know he tries his best with the budget and we didn't we my fault for cutting his budget less than what he wanted um but is that built into it for this year the dog officer okay yeah because I think there was a that was the um department where he was going to ask for a part-time person to offset any overtime right and he does have a part-timer now we've been fortunate uh we had a part-timer who then left and but this part-time has been there for quite a while now and she's doing a great job do anyone want to reconsider that Reserve fund transfer request I'll make a motion to reconsider ad ch if there's a second I'll second it Paul SCH motion a second to reconsider the reserve fund transfer of $8,000 for the dog officer I will take a vote to reconsider first so this isn't voting for The Reserve fund transfer this is voting to reconsider this subject matter okay Steve yes Tracy yes Sandy yes Joe yes Bill yes Paul yes Cody no okay Zach yes Bonnie yes I2 a yes nine yes one no to reconsider so we will be reconsidering all right right of for discussion $8,000 we've just done reserved transfers for the finance committee budget for legal services without really a blink we said no about this I think at the time we were kind of in shock of everything going on with the budget maybe the reality's just been sitting in and I don't know how does everyone feel Mike do you have any anything put up on the screen for this any numbers or is it just uh um just the reserve fund transfer that's all um that's fine I just I didn't know if there was a breakdown J I know James um had looked at this before and where was he at with the uh part-time salary James the budget was 12113 and they spent 12,360 so it is over spent by $247 as of today and that money would go back into free cash if it's not spent yes and as I said they think they'll spend about 7,000 more between now and July 1 because didn't James just say it was only 200 over spent it's 200 over now yeah um the main reason is because Brian uh the Animal control officer has vacation he has to take oh right and so the time would be uncovered Madam chair yes Joe uh I make a motion that we transfer $8,000 from the reserve fund uh to cover expenses for the dollar officer back okay Motion in a sec take the vote Steve no Tracy Tracy no Sandy no Joe yes Bill no okay um Paul yes Cody no Zach yes Bonnie no um and I am a yes so hold on let me count make sure I did this right all right so we have six no four yes I think I have that right so no to the reserve fund transfer all right Mike can I ask what happens now for the rest of the year if we have dog or animal issues um good question a lot of them G to have to go un answer chair yes Joe Mike how much vacation does he have to use up um I know he has five weeks total I'm not sure what he has left three or four weeks though oh wow okay and you use the vacation or lose it there's no carryover or anything um he can carry over 10 days all right I guess we're moving on from this all right thank you um public budget hearing I believe I emailed everyone we've settled on April Monday April 22nd right Mike I knew we were going back and forth um Mike just to let's just I want to have a little discussion about this budget public hearing thing because I've been on finance committee since 2019 and every year the public hearing consists of Us opening the public hearing us sitting here for a few minutes staring at each other and then Us closing the public hearing what is expected of the town for this like should I be preparing something is it I feel like no chair has ever really done anything for the public hearing again except for opening and closing it Bon I just want to make sure that we're all on the same page of what we want this public hearing to be going forward with everything going on this year we may have an audience this year so um I I think the main thing you just have to be prepared some for people that will have questions on the budget and tell them you know why we are where where we're at and you know it's just we'll see if anyone does show up and then the board members can the committee MERS can also weigh in when answering some somebody's question too okay Zach I think if we wanted an audience we should have perhaps started our meeting a half an hour early and done it Thursday night um I don't know if that's too late to do uh with the timing but if you want an audience um because you know you may get two or three people and that would be high number I think Madam chair yes Sandy the point of the the hearing is to present what we have right we we don't really have a whole lot right now we haven't voted on the 1% budget we don't have the um the override number um you know yeah I want to have more information and from what I understand too Mike I think it's not just about the budget right it's about all the Warren articles that the public could ask us questions on why we're recommending or not recommending right isn't it usually no no it's just the budget oh then yes Joe so we haven't voted on a single budget yet do we feel like our meeting on Wednesday is enough time to get through all of those adequately and then still have public hearing on Monday that's that's my concern is that we're going to be ill prepared so we're there's no way we're going to be able to get through all the budgets both budgets because right we're talking about having two budgets to go through um that there's no way that's going to happen by the 22nd but we needed it to happen a certain number of days prior to town meeting correct Mike yes and so when I was going back and forth with Mike and Michelle about trying to schedule this I have limited ability after I can't meet that Wednesday of the week of the 22nd um um and then I think the Monday after which I think is the 30th Mike I think Michelle was saying that would be too late the 29th 29th okay I think Michelle was saying that would be too late it I don't I don't know if it'll be too late it'll be like the LA latest that you can go the 29th so we could do this the 29th then the public hearing I understood that we that would be too late I'm sorry I misunderstood that so does everyone want to wait till the 29th where we may have potentially more time to go over the budgets I think we need to if we're going to present to people and have something concrete to at least discuss so I think we have to wait we can't rush it okay with the environment today it's not a check the Box Thing y Madam chair yes Bonnie in addition I think I mean I don't know what the board's feelings are about this but if we're not finished as of the 22nd then um even with that meeting we end up may we may end up having to have another meeting later that week and I understand that you may not be available I'm actually not available the 24th either um but if there are six people available then we need to have a meeting to finish those budgets by the 29th I mean they have to be done by a certain time anyway regardless of whether or not there's a hearing yes but for the hearing we obviously want to have it finished to be able to present uh both budgets at that hearing so CH if if the 29th is a valid date I would prefer to wait until then and give us as much time as we can have in order to get through this as best we can okay chair uh Cody I think you were next I just I just want to make sure it's that I'm clear we will have both the 1% budget recommendation and the altern like the alternate override suggested budget that we will be opening for public hearing is it just the 1% I mean personally it makes sense for us to have both so everyone has a clear picture of what is going to be presented at town meeting because that would be the plan okay uh Sandy Sandy I think you next M chair I'm just wondering if preemptively if it would be um beneficial just to have a like a short presentation about the um the budget just sort of the highlights for anybody who missed it and and as I say that I I'm willing to help create that if that's something that people are interested in I'm optimistic that that we have a little bit more interest this year and rather than waiting for people to ask all the questions um about to have us explain if we kind of had that upfront it might be helpful but that's just my suggestion yeah I think that would be helpful to have something to go through and bullet points bullet points it's a lot to talk about Zach you had something yeah I guess my question would be is the public hearing just an informational session or is it for us to get input from the from the residents and possibly come back and debate changes um because if you push it to the end all we're doing is saying here this is what it is as questions and it is what it is and that's it I understand it to be informational and then the people can do as they wish at town meeting that's when they would be ultimately making the decisions right I mean we're just putting our recommendations in it's not their job to sway our recommendations it's us as a board and then their job is to uh vote on our recommendations or not at town meeting Madam chair yes Andy can I just ask um the the warrant is due seven is it seven business days or seven days prior to town meeting is that May 2nd or May 6 it's due seeven seven calendar days Okay calendar days okay so that does give us time if we um because I I do think the public hearing I mean maybe maybe I'm misinterpreting it but just reading through the wording of it it's before preparing its recommendations the finance committee shall hold one or more public hearings to permit public discussion of the subject matter I I feel like it's it's supposed to be met before we make our recommendations so that we can um we can hear and get that input Madam chair yeah I say Bon your bill do you remember if we've done it I believe it's right so we we have recommendations in mind that we have come to a lot of conclusions over the course of several meetings but this is an opportunity like Sandy said for the public to give input and in theory we can reconsider anything if it's before the date that our recommendations are due so to go in the warrant so in theory if something were raised and there was a gaggle of Town's people advocating for something then we could reconsider it and revote on it and it could change our recommendation in theory and we could Recon we could vote to reconsider any of it afterward we could vote to reconsider and we could come out with the same out have a week or we could come out you know basically I mean if there was a a big push for some recommendation out of courtesy to the people that did attend you probably should should consider it but we we would not be required to and we would not be required to change our votes or the outcome of the vote doesn't need to change I'm just looking at the calendar so our next I mean we could potentially be meeting again on May 1 that Wednesday then the Monday May 6th and then it would have to be posted that Tuesday Mike or would it have to be posted the Monday for if you're going to meet on a Wednesday so I just want to make sure I'm having the post like we would have to post the warrant on Monday May 6th or could we meet on the evening of Monday May 6th and then you post it on Tuesday May 7th no no it no it would have to be post have to be posted on so our last meeting that we could potentially have to change any of our recommendations reconsider whatever would be that Wednesday May 1 after the public hearing yeah got it m chair couldn't we also reconsider that same night Expos we could I think we're oh no the 22nd we're meeting with the southeastern regional right Mike that's why we're saying we had a lot on our plate that night all right yeah so the 29 be the last day Bonnie didn't we actually vote the night of time meeting on stuff last year some adjustments it's not ideal no it's not um I know only we have more information that we didn't have available to us but we had shied I mean this goes back to before my tenure I mean we we've shied away from that but if we did which I don't remember but if we did it's because we had new information like there's sometimes planning board issues like they had a meeting later than we had our meeting um they may not have been budget related but they may have been like warrant articles that we always have to make a recommendation on um so I don't remember but that would have been why mam chair thank you I I remember one of them was the town motto thing and the guy asked us to withdraw so instead of not recommending it he withdrew it so there was no action stuff like that all right thank you Cody Paul it looks like the um eclipse is behind you when you're you have your camera on don't turn around directly it it sounds like we're landing on Monday April 29th public hearing and okay all right all right anything else should we so if we meet on the 29th and we decide we need another meeting uh we will be unable to do so because of the 48 hour requirement for agenda should we plan on having a meeting on the 1 and then yes canceling it if we need to yes yes yes posted thank you Joe yes there been a lot of discussion about open meeting law in our household the last couple of days exciting sounds super fun what a fun couple to live in the understands okay anything else that we want to discuss Mike you had you didn't have anything else for us right no I'm all set you do not have any minutes on our plate right now either so Madame chair yes I make a motion to adjourn this meeting of the finance committee second okay motion to second to adjourn Steve yes Tracy yes please Sandy yes Joe yes Bill yes Paul yes Cody yes Zach yes Bonnie yes enjoy the marathon everybody I too yes you too Bonnie all right good night everyone