doesn't it imply that we're running the parties at a loss like could we drive incremental Revenue by raising the party price to cover more than just the Lifeguard piece of it as a potential way to offset this a little bit can I step in on that one Madam chair I think that question was for you yeah sorry sorry I just I don't address my questions to people I just throw them against the wall sorry yes that's okay and I realized I wasn't addressing madam just requesting my requesting permission to speak for me okay so um the party rentals cover about 16,000 of the 25,000 for lifeguard shares actually this goes back to what you were asking too the memberships last year were about 3500 that I brought in that goes into the same Kitty to the 25,000 um day passes were just under 2,000 again into that same Kitty to cover the 25 and swim lessons were about 3,000 so all those things um added up co co come to the cover the 25,000 sorry I stuttered there um so it's not just the pool rentals it's the memberships the day passes and the swim lessons that all go into that big 25,000 nut that then covers the Lifeguard um salaries no appreciate it I I just wonder if if you were to redo the math and say okay we want to cover all incremental costs of those since I mean it sounds like it's a lot of services that go away with the pool closing um like if you take all the costs of all those functions and say you want to get at a Cost Plus 10% margin what would the pricing structure look like like is it an egregious price increase at that point it's like swim lessons jump from 110 to 180 like I don't know maybe it's egregious but maybe it's a math exercise worth looking at I can absolutely do that for you I don't know off the top of my head but I'd be happy totally I wouldn't expect you not offand but maybe just a a financial exercise worth uh going through sure so give me the numbers that you want me to like the percentage again I'm sorry um no I I don't even think you need to Target it just say something like what would the what would the pricing structure of those Services look like if you wanted to cover all of your variable costs plus 10% margin okay then what's unknown there though Kevin is like with the increased costs could that mean that there could be less rentals less memberships less day passes being sold so there almost needs to be a fine line you'd walk there I would think we'd have to make some assumptions but yep Madam chair yeah Cody so Melissa whenever you're like the the rate that gets charged right now if somebody wants to rent out including the pool is is it cost plus are you like is is it just a flat amount or are you taking into account paying a lifeguard for six hours or however long that they're they're reserving the space are you saying like we know paying a kid $ an hour whatever it is is going to cost you know $700 $800 whatever it is yeah plus the cleaning fee plus the electricity like are you doing a a buildup or is it just a flat cost and then you know you're you're bringing it in and kind of eating the rest or it's absorbed back into the budget that's a great question when I came in last year it was um it had been already determined that it was $150 an hour um um to rent the pool three hour minimum um and so how the numbers worked last year it was kind of the flat fee like you were saying now that you're also saying that I should go back in and look to make sure that the 150 is also covering all the costs I kind of thought it was because rough and tough The Lifeguard covered the Lifeguard costs are about $57 an hour um and if we're bringing in $150 I I was assuming and I shouldn't assume that the $93 was covering the rest of the costs but that would be a good exercise to go back and do to make sure I am doing that thank you you're welcome have anything for Melissa all right thank you so much Melissa you're welcome I'll do my homework tomorrow and the next day and get this out to you hopefully by the end of the week thank you thank you thank you good luck guys appreciate it next is water and soore and I think uh Frank fornier is on hi Frank you there can you guys hear me now I can good evening everybody John should also be on I'm not sure if John is uh able to speak John's been handling majority of the budget but uh I'm here there he is hi John hello um so what are we starting with here water or sewer I'm trying to look at the screen we have sewer first I guess okay um so across the board um the majority of our line items have have either stayed the same um or had very marginal increases uh the majority of our increases in the whole budget are based on um just the potential funding of a new DPW director position um so that's Personnel Services and um DPW director expenses is also in the um the total that charges and expenditures um and our uh wastewater treatment plant costs for the um mfn Wastewater Plant over on Hill Street that has seen an increase as well and other than that there's really not much oh John I think we lost you oh there you are Chang we tried to tighten up the number oh did you can you hear me you were going in out H what was the last thing you heard tightening something up okay yeah so we were just going out we were trying to um tighten the numbers up to make sure uh we were trying to be as close to the numbers from last year as we could certain costs that are a little harder to project like cost of chemicals um data processing cost things like that had marginal increases but almost line for line it's pretty close compared to last year what our uh budget was um and actually like um certain line items like uh the personal services is almost exactly the same because even though we've had uh uh increases and rates of pay we also had a retirement of a higher paid employee so we have some an employee starting at a lower grade of pay so that that saved us a little bit there um John the line item for engineering it looks like um there's still like 60,000 left um for this fiscal year what do you expect to spend that um probably not give me one second I'm actually moving to a area in the house with a little bit better reception so I can not break up on you again right um so um let me see what do I have here engineering 75 uh yeah so um we put that number in there because we had a couple of um uh projects that we were going to be planning to um have worked on a lot of that engineering cost is actually budgeted into the cost of a a project a capital project um and I know we also uh are planning we're working on an Elm Street sewer project that you'll hear about tonight um that we we got a design grant for so I'm sure we won't use all of that number um but it's a number that uh it's some something where if you need it it's very important to have um that's kind of where we had budgeted that at I'd say usually we use between 50 and 60,000 I'd say by the end of the fiscal year okay anyone else have questions on the sewer budget Madam chair yeah bill um John I should probably remember this but treatment plant Taunton what's that um so our uh Bay Road area and King Philip area um is pumped to the winet pump station and then that Wastewater is actually pumped to Taunton everything else goes to the Mansfield uh Fox bro Norton Wastewater system but that is pumped to Taunton thank you you're welcome have anything uh was that Cody Cody yeah um can you uh just remind me how it works since it's it's Enterprise and I feel like I ask this every year or some version of it um so you set your budget it's Enterprise so you're basically your incoming revenues are set based on the budget and whatever you budget and save ends up going to retained earnings and it just kept gets kept in that separate account right yes anyone else we'll move on to water hey the water's up okay um so for the water it's actually almost the same uh same discussion as sewer um our charges and expenditures has actually uh gone down from what we were asking for for last year um certain things again uh chemicals was a big one um we kind of were expecting a larger jump in our chemical costs um we saw a marginal increase not quite as much as we thought there was going to be um so we cut that number down um we added the DPW director expenses to the charges and expenditures so the price is actually lower and that's with adding almost 29,000 in DPW director expenses um for personal services we added a almost $86,000 for a DPW director um that's where the jump is almost entirely there is uh you know very very marginal increase other than that number um and other than that um debt and interest uh an increase there uh of about um 60,000 and we're still waiting on the um in fund operating transfer numbers I know once this round of uh fin call meetings comes and goes I think they'll have a better number of exactly what we're at there um but yeah I mean the the budget as a whole has gone down questions on water yeah Cody um since we now talk sewer and water and uh DPW um director and the expenses that are built into that um Mike we covered this off on I think our first meeting the creation of that position if we move forward with that what is the expectation of what that position is actually going to do and is it expected to create savings or efficiencies or like what is what exactly is that position going to do that's going to benefit the town um I would think uh the benefit would be um you'd have someone in charge hopefully if we could ever find one who's an engineer and just you they would not be able to do engineering work because they're not going to have surveyors and they're not going to have all the equipment they' just be able to uh review plans through the eyes as an engineer um as far as any um you know savings or efficiencies I think what came up before under when the highway department was presenting the only thing would be maybe um some efficiencies with snow plowing but other than that I I don't see a huge amount of savings myself I don't know maybe John has a different perspective um I mean I know that when this uh whole DPW was really getting proposed uh the idea was to kind of as the word was synergies between Highway and water and sewer um I think I can see there's some potential for that when it comes to sharing of equipment and stuff um there's a lot of things that you know it's that's all well and good until you have two emergencies in both departments at the same time and you don't have enough equipment and and it's not like we're going to be you know selling equipment from one most likely or you know a lot of the and and we've just bought up a lot of equipment in both departments so I mean I I definitely could see um maybe the goal of having both departments um work jointly together I feel like um we're doing that pretty well right now I I think Frank and Jared are doing an excellent job of working together on things uh communication has been great um I mean but you know this is what the town voted for so I mean that's what we're we're putting in our budget uh and and you know we'll do whatever we'll we'll do whatever the town's people want just a follow up on that I mean the the formation of the DPW and bringing of you know water and sewer and Highway I think there was like tree services and a couple other things that were supposed to be rolled into that um that's officially formed now right so there can be cost sharing between the between the Departments so there's not the creation of that position is not necessarily going to generate the savings that the department as it exists without a a director could recognize so like the snow removal the the collaboration across departments and the the capability of sharing expenses that way I mean that that can be done now without a director position right I I yes and I would also highlight like as Mike said where as far as I feel like a common misconception about the position is if we hire an engineer they're going to be doing the engineering for the town um the engineering that we have for the projects takes an incredible amount of time uh it's it's not something that basically if you wanted a town engineer you'd have to have just a town engineer you can't have it as a town engineer and a DPW director both like Mike said they would have a probably a slightly better idea of what plans they're looking at and reviewing um but at the same time they would need to be specialized in water and sewer and Highway and drainage and things like that so it's definitely not a situation where if we were to bring a DPW director in uh Engineering Services costs would go down I I really don't see a world in which that would happen and if the um because Water and Sewer remain an Enterprise there's no possibility of pulling funds from water and sewer like that's that's where like the efficiencies are kind of gained by utilizing Water and Sewer equipment for snow removal but it's not you can't take money out of water and sewer and give it to Highway if Highway has a a project that's needed right like that's because it's set up as an Enterprise it's more of a figurative Department because Water and Sewer are still on their own independent Enterprise budgets yeah I mean I I I can't speak is the 100% uh particulars of that as far as the money sharing goes I know that uh our employees that do plow snow for Highway um almost all of them I do believe use Norton Water and Sewer trucks um and there's a cut there is a sharing of equipment all the time so um you know if Highway needs something that we have we we let them use it and vice versa thank you yep El have questions for John okay silence thank you John absolutely um and water and sore um their engineer is on and would like to um give a presentation on the Elm Street so project yes um thanks Mike um good evening uh so my name is Steve Peterson with Weston and Samson Engineers uh and we work with the uh water and sewer uh commission and the department obviously on Water and Sewer projects so I wanted to talk tonight about the Elm Street uh sewer and water project and I'm going to share my screen if I have that yeah all right can everybody see my screen okay yes sorry that's okay no all right all right so want to talk as I said about the Elm Street uh project basically infrastructure Improvement both Water and Sewer um we gave this presentation also at the uh select board meeting um you know last I think the week before last week so basically the same information so I try and go through this um fairly quickly we can obviously deal with questions either as we go or at the end give you an overview and some background on the project um main reason we want to talk about it is because there is a town meeting article that we're looking for support on um and any anytime you're looking for support on a town meeting article people want to know well what's it going to cost and how we going to pay for it so we'll talk about um some of those uh mechanisms available to us and then just give you a quick update on where we are now with the design and what the next steps are on the project so the project itself uh entails about 6,800 feet of 8 inch gravity sewers that encompasses uh the entire length of Elm Street from Reservoir to Main Street uh Miller Terrace and then a portion of Reservoir Street adjacent to Elm Street uh it fronts about 70 properties uh with the sewer uh and as part of the sewer there's one Municipal Wastewater Pump Station um that will be sighted near we're looking at several sites near the intersection of Miller Terrace and Elm Street um the project also includes cludes 4500 ft of water M improvements all within Elm Street so basically the entire length um of the water M uh on Elm Street um is in need of work it's undersized um and in need of uh upgrades U so what's really the the impetus behind the the project is grant funding um so the town planner um it was Paul at the time um identified this project uh as potentially eligible eligible for funding through the massworks program through the state um he worked with us with West and Samson and the Water and Sewer Department to put an application in uh and it was awarded a grant um for a portion of the design and then we also um through the work of the Town were awarded a second Grant through the economic development bill um that basically picks up the balance of it so the entire design work that I'm talking about um here tonight uh is entirely funded um through Grant monies uh and as we moved into design uh more recently Maria in the position of a town planner um put forward an application for actual funding um of the construction of the project uh and we were successful uh in getting the construction if it were to move forward um the project uh partially funded with a $3.5 million Grant um so it's all about the grant money and the the real driver behind the grant money is the potential Redevelopment at 47 Elm Street that's the uh that's the Catalyst as to why what uh the town is qualifying for these Grant monies um just as a quick background um on the property um at 47 Alm it was a mill site um from 1972 to till 2015 uh owned and run by Reen Barton uh and in 2015 uh basically they declared bankruptcy and the the property went into U receivership um so it's been in uh different states of uh remediation basically a warrant the town received a warrant um to do certain things there've been some there's been work at the property soil remediation as best as a batement um there's been some uh some sight assessment studies wellwater testing um basically um to make the property um at least safe and secure is the intent of this work and also to ultimately make it marketable um so that the town can ultimately see something uh happen something better happen at this property uh along those lines and I think what you know what drove the Town planners to seek the funding um the grant monies was the 2021 master plan identified this specific property as a priority um economic Target area uh and also within the master plan um there was language that the uh infrastructure Investments um to promote Economic Development were a focus or should be a focus of the town so two things that kind of direct us right towards this project so in recent times uh there is a developer that's been looking at the property devco North America is pursuing ownership of the property um the latest plan that they've put forth would be you know proposed development of 150 apartments and 10,000 square feet of commercial space um there is a significant amount of remediation work required those are the things that devco or whoever buys the property is is trying to work out uh and and uh and figure out if they if it's viable for them to move forward the infrastructure improvements that we're talking about here Water and Sewer um are definitely necessary for a property to be um redeveloped to the full potential to what we're talking about here so these certainly make the property um more attractive for someone to to come in uh and develop it so as I said we have an article on for town meeting um the amount of the article is 8.6 million uh and let me tell talk a little bit more about the cost of the project so again it's water and sewer um the way it breaks out now the cost of the water and we're pretty far along in the design but we still have some key pieces of information that we're currently collecting um that are driving uh the budgeted cost so the range of the water main work um is between 2 Mill million and 2.3 million uh and then the sewer work is between 5.6 and 6.3 million so the total budget cost of the project is currently ranging from 7.6 to 8.6 million um that's why we have the 8.6 million um in the article um so again right off the top we have the $3.5 million um Grant through Mass Works um the water p you know the water work can be recovered um through the water rates that's how the water man Improvement projects are typically handled so if that projects at about 2 million um that piece is handled through the water rates uh when we look at the um the properties that are fronted by the sewer um we have the article worded to assess betterments which was done on the last sewer project West Main Street um of the and I said there are like 70 properties front out there um that equates to about 100 um equivalent dwelling units EMB betterments there are some two family homes out there uh and and higher use properties um that bring us up to about a hundred units so through the assessment of betterments again along the same lines as the last sewer project was done at the same rates that would collect about $1.6 million and if we run the math out over that range that I gave you 7.6 to 8 8.6 that leaves us with the remaining share of between a half a million and a million and a half um important piece to understand about the betterment number that I've given you there um is that does not include an assessment for the readen Barton property we would have to assess it it's fronted it would get an assessment um and it would be a sizable assessment you know just based on the size of the property you know alone not knowing what was going to be developed out there if we just looked at it terms of the acreage and you know just basic what could be developed there you know it's probably a quarter of a million dollars in betterments if you look at what devco is talking about a property like that would be an assessment over $2 million if you've got 150 um apartment units in there so the the assessment for that for that parcel would be significant the issue is um nobody owns it so it's in receivership we can assess it a betterment um but there's no one to pay it and then there's also the issue that if you attach it to the property um it's already challenging for someone to purchase that property and clean it up so it's really about what's you know how after we assess that how would the town you know recover those monies as they're paying down the debt and that's the the share that we're talking about that that would need to be recovered um the other thing to think about is once that property is developed um you know obviously um the benefits to the town of just having that developed as a viable part but then the tax revenue you're obviously not re realizing any tax revenue um from that property the tax revenues would be significant um and we would assume there would be a way to work the taxes that would now be collected to initially at least pay pay down the remainder of the debt of that project uh until it is completely recovered um and then the town would have that property with that tax base going forward and it would be a portion of the the tax revenues for that property Madam chair yeah Cody uh Steve just a quick question what's the uh the requested term of the loan uh it's a 20-year loan typically they can do 20 to 30 but we typically do 20 so then just moving forward where we're at I said you know we're um few of the critical things left um that that are driving the cost why we still have that range of costs is the um Pump Station site options we're looking at several sites one of them um was the L is a piece of town property right at the corner of milit terce and Elm Street it's a um land preservation Society land um so we've been talking with the committee um about that piece of land we also have um Town parcel over uh by the library um that we're looking at um and we've we're pretty close to finalizing that and we're also working with the Conservation Commission um based on the wetlands that are in the area down there the force routing um is also a big piece that's that's driving it we're initially looking at it as a project that was going to pump up to um Reservoir Street and into that side of town we're looking at some other options to basically we're trying to look at options to bring that cost down um shorten the length if we can get it over to the um system over by Wheaten College we could shorten that up and then one of the biggest drivers is the subservice investigation program which is going on right now um they should be uh they've been out there for the last couple of weeks and should be wrapping up this week um Gathering the data um for what the uh digging conditions are are like out there which is um which is a big cost driver to the project so we should have that information in hand in the coming weeks um finalize the sighting so we'll know uh better what the final costs are but again um we want to make sure we have um enough money so the you know that's why we have the higher end in um with the article right now so the next steps would be with the data we collect finalize our design report uh any permits that are required um mainly probably just the Conservation Commission get that filed um so public Outreach is part of what we're doing here tonight meeting with the select board we're going to do um public meeting for the residents any any residents of the town or you know more specifically that neighborhood uh in April we're going to probably have you know one towards the end of April and then another one right before town meeting um to get the information out there and answer questions that people have um so under the grant the design Grant we have to be done um by the end of this fiscal year um you know the monies have to be expended so the design has to be complete by the end of June um so that's the Target that we're on and then really a timeline to complete you know assuming um we get the town meeting AU iation to move forward with the construction and take advantage of the grant monies um with the design complete at the end of June bidding in over the summer um we would hope to start construction in the fall um with a about a year to completion under the construction grant money um that has to be that's good through the end of um FY 26 so we have um until June of 202 six to spend the construction monies so we do need to get moving on that I think that's it so that's the information I have I know Frank and John are on the call also um but thanks open up the question Madam Madam chair yes bill um question for Mike and a question for Steve um I guess Steve I'll ask your question first subsurface investigations when we went through the West Main sewer I think it was sewer maybe it was sewer and water it was it came back multiple times due to cost overruns and and one of the things that was said to this committee once was oh well had we done borings every 50 feet we would have known how bad the situation was Y how how many feet in between borings are we doing here so yes we're doing a a lot more boring so they typically do them every 300 feet we're doing them about every um 100 feet we're gather gathering information in between where we need you know specifically where we have um real questions in between so we short answer the question is yes there's a lot more going into the subservice exploration program um than before um so that we can have a higher level of confidence that we have the right data okay thank you Mike um do you have any communication with with devco are they are they just kind of like way back in the background going yeah we're kind of interested but they're not or are they really like hey what are you guys doing we want to get going I wish they were hey what are you guys doing we want to get going um and I won't I wouldn't say that and I wouldn't say that they're way in the back um we're trying to pushed them along um they've been to the court and they've said they've gained control of the site um they've filed with D um to get a covenant not to Sue from d and they say they need some more work done before they get that Covenant so we have asked them I sent an email to her last week because she said she'd love to have a meeting with Weston Samson water and sore um our environmental engineer that was out on the site that did the phase one and the phase two um and our attorneys to discuss where they're at and where they're going so I I told her last week we need a date so um I'm hoping to hear soon I told her find and I know Steve's anxious to meet with them Steve Peterson's anxious to meet with them and uh we We R have to get that moving with them I did tell her if uh if you're not going to move forward we need to know because the state has a huge H housing crunch right now and there's a big push on for development and it will have to go to the um State um office that's handling um apartment development in the state that's pushing it and get somebody else if you're not going to do it so um hopefully we get together she says she has all the investors lined up and they're ready to go but um it's that covenant not to Sue that she's waiting for I told her let us know if you need any help with the legislature uh to push D along so we're waiting for that meeting and hopefully we get a better idea hopefully it's soon thanks Mike thanks St any other questions mam chair yeah Cody just to uh Steve just to to Bill's point that was one of my big questions is um obviously ledge is a concern have any of the borings resulted like have you determine that there is ledge how much and to what extent does this requested budget take into account that you will run into it and have a contingency because I mean the the the problem with West Main was they're like we didn't know there was ledge like that's a stupid assumption in this area yeah yeah so the answer is that the we are encountering um refusal on the boardings it is taken into account you know the higher end estimate is is based on um the significant amount of ledge um and that's why we're doing um you know we've got rock cores scheduled to determine the nature of the rock out there so it's not as prevalent as what we found on West Main Street right now in terms of the borings that we've seen but um we're doing more holes in between you know basically we do you know borings down we core into the Rock and then in between we're doing additional drilling just to drill down to the top of the ledge and identify the profile of it you know the issue that um that creeped up last time was coming up in between you know the the uh the ledge would be at you know 12et at one boring and 10 feet at the next and then it would come right up to the ground surface in between them um there were a lot of other issues out on West Main Street I know that the ledge is definitely the one that was the biggest and the um you know the bigger issue you know with being out on the um out on the state highway the slower production you know also really drove the the the police costs you know we had five officers out there and when it takes you know an extra month extra two months to do um an area it was more than that you know those costs also added up I mean there'll still be police details on Elm Street but it won't be to the same level um but I guess to answer your question all of that stuff is being accounted for we're getting the additional ex information spending the extra money um during the design process um to compile more data so if if you had to put a confidence rating on this that 8.6 is going to contain 100% of the of the cost to run these sewer and water lines and you like you wouldn't be coming back for unforeseen c% 90% like what's the confidence is is very high 90% you yeah Zach Steve when all said and done I know that Elm Street's been recently paved within the last few years it's a pretty decent street is that going to be total to resurface or is it going to be completely resurface the road and that money is is in the cost um side the water man being replaced on one side road will ultimately res thank you madam any other yes Cody uh I don't know if it's been raised but when you're looking at at resurfacing there is that going to include e e e the town for the new town hall to connect to right well that will be an option for us later but the new town hall has a septic system but it is so we are putting accommodations in for a connection hey anyone else hey hearing nothing thank you so much Steve you are welcome and thank you for your time and let us know if there I mean obviously ultimately you know we we'd love to see this project go forward for the town um and have everybody support so if there's anything any additional information you need you know let us know let the water and sewer department know um and we're happy to to obviously we'll be back in front of you again to to get your support for it but let us know if you have any questions okay thanks so much um Madam chair yeah Cody it's just occurring to me now what what are the uh potential um like the increase in the the budget for the loan payments what's that expected to be over the course of the the 20 years you're asking me I I think that's a Mike question honestly so um the loan payment the majority of it would be uh it's paid by the betterments that are assessed um the only portion um that the town would be responsible for um would be anything that's not uh covered by uh Dev code off America so right now it's assumed that they would cover the rest of it so um there are it's all Enterprise so it's not part of the uh fixed and shared that you look at and that's the .5 mil to 1.5 million that could possibly be covered by devco yeah if they move forward but if not we are taking a loan for that remainder we would take we would have to yep and that that would be a loan underwater and Sewer Enterprise though right they would split that no I don't believe Steve had planned it that way I think that would be something that would have to be paid by either the town or devco so if devco is not covering it do we have an estimated in like the incremental cost to the budget on an annual basis I don't know if you've worked on that Steve yet no I don't have that number we can get it and Madam chair yeah Bill going back again to what Steve said it's uh half million to a million and a half but is isn't it also part of the 1.6 that would be that potential development that isn't there at the moment so we could be we'd have both pieces potentially potentially well there's a there's a lag on the betterments right because they have to be paid within three years or whatever for the tie-in like you you're assess the betterment if you're if you abought the the newes but you have is it three years to pay and five years or whatever no so that's different so the ti in you have you have time to tie in so betterments are are immediate as soon as the project is approved for use the betterments get assessed um you have the option if you get assessed to betterment you have the option to pay it off uh in full or it'll get applied to your taxes over 20 years um and that and that's different from so the thing that's been voted is people don't have to tie in right away they have seven years now to actually tie in and start paying the user fees but 20 years to pay off the betterment so that 20 years to pay off the betterment yep but the town would have to take the loan for the full amount and then just recoup it over the 20 years from the betterment payments correct yeah the pay yeah the loan payments you know as the loan payments are due you're taking in the betterment money simultaneously and and that's going towards it Madam chair yes um I don't know who the question is to Mike or Steve so let's make it simple and just stick with a 100 units a million six so that's 16,000 uh a unit um what's the interest rate if I can't stroke a check for 16,000 so I'll be taking a loan so what what's what's that so it's getting uh it's going onto your taxes so you don't have to take a loan but you're paying it over time and you are paying interest yes so it'll go on to your taxes um I believe at 5% so 5% 20 years ouch thank you madam chair yeah Zach so let's just assume I'm a homeowner on Elm Street minding my business uh this comes along and all of a sudden out of the blue I get hit with $116,000 and then what's the tie-in Fe from the water andore department that I got to do within seven years there's no there's no tie there's no tie in fee it's just your cost to hire someone to do the work on your property you would have to okay so that's probably another 10 grand so I'm just minding my business and all of a sudden I'm getting hit with a $26,000 Bill roughly I have any uh I would before we vote on this I would like to at least have a public hearing with the residents over there to see what they have to think about it because if I was living there I'd be pissed yeah when do you plan to have a public hearing Steve you did mention that yeah I think um was shooting for April 24th I think it's a Wednesday Madam Sher yeah Kevin are all of these I don't know I'm not familiar with the the street that are these are these units all on septic right now yes yeah there's no sewer in this area Okay Madam chair yes Cody I I think I'm on the record many times about the uh sewer connection fees and the difference between this because it's using uh public funds is you assess the betterment and you can pay it off on the taxes if you're using private funds then it's a sewer connection fee and it's a what do they call it a a distinction or a difference without distinction um there there's no difference here it's going to cost 20 25 $26,000 per house on average three-bedroom house is going to roughly cost that whenever it and so it will be met and has always been met with resistance anytime sewer lines get laid in this town because the rates that are set by sewer and water for the for those calculations are much higher than other towns in the area um so Zach you're you're right um it's you know anytime new sewer water lines get laid in this town anybody that's along that path is going to throw a fit and rightfully so because who has $26,000 sitting around so it I know it's it's in the best interest of the town that we get rid of the reeden Barton property and allow somebody to come in and pay you know tear it down and develop it and increase the tax revenue just you know we have to take into account that it's going to be met with resistance regardless of what our recommendation is it's it's to the better interest of the town but the individuals that are along that that path are not going to be happy with it Madam chair yes um and I think we have to remind those people that a septic system is not going to last 20 years so um and your property has much more value when you're tied into sore so if $26,000 over 20 years um it cost you a lot more if you're on septic to upgrade your system in that time frame probably a couple times Madam chair yes I'm not sure who said that it is me umor um Mike I've been in my house more than in 20 years I'm on septic pump it every two years they can last a while so I second that I I'd be ticked you know if you're going in front of my house saying that hey my you know your septic is gonna go yep someday it will but if you take maintaining it adds life to it so we can't just we can't sell to a person on Elm Street well 20 years and then you're going to be crying to us because that's not how it works um and I guess the other thing I'd say in this whole thing is this there is a proposal to put an apartment complex across from my house that complex is paying for the sewer line line to go all the way down to the center of town so you know may maybe devco or whatever you want 150 units 10,000 square feet of commercial and it's gonna it's going to line your pockets here's the cost to do it has that discussion happened at all Mike or Steve no it has that I know of Steve no no having Dev go pay for the whole thing no um that because obviously they have cost to tear that building down and do the site clean up so I think you know if the if the town thinks it's a benefit to the whole town and they want to pay more of a share and reduce the betterments that can certainly be done you know you could do you could talk about doing taxes you know there are other options to do it but this town has never used you know most communities do a split between General taxes for the general benefit and then betterments for the specific benefit of the properties that are that are fronted by the project so right now none of this you know is coming out of you know the general tax base other than how we deal with the the 0.5 to 1.5 million so I think you know the uh it's just something else to think about you know we're trying to keep the betterment units where they were last time um and not increase those anymore um and yeah I mean there's I'm sure that there are properties on Elm Street um they would want to tie in you know and and I'm sure there are others that are not going to be happy about it you find the person whose system is failing and they'll sign on the you know sign me up because this is exactly what I need this is my longterm solution um and you run into that with every area you go have those 70 existing properties been um has there been any communication to them yet about this or is the first time they hear about it going to be April 24th um well you know there's there hasn't been a mail or anything that's gone out to talk to them you know there's there's been work going on in their neighborhood so but yeah no there hasn't been a public meeting to talk about it that would be well I didn't know if there was yeah like a mailing or something that went out to let them know that this was a possibility Adam Shar yes Kevin I mean going back to some earlier points like I don't think it's set in stone that you got to go to devco and tell them hey you're paying for this or whoever does is going to take it over but when you couldn't put in context that based on their proposal their cash flows on that property when everything's in Flight is easily four to five million dollars a year the betterment cost is four to five months of that property's let's call post-rehab cash flows so in the big scheme of things $1.6 million they're already at the precipice of walking away if if even bringing that up is like something we're afraid to do because the value of the property based on inflation rates on rentals and things I mean it's not that shouldn't be make or break to their decision to invest or not Madam chair yes Zach if this project is for the betterment of the whole town then the whole town should pay for it not just the residents of that t of that street if the goal is to get rid of that ugly property there and improves the whole town the whole town should pay for it and I think the whole thing should be on the water and SE budget not anything else it is it's a water and sewer Improvement the only thing these people AR that live on that street you have to pay for is the tiin at the time that they choose within the next seven years nothing else I mistakenly supported this an hour ago at the capital committee if I have known this I would have not voted for it and I plan on not voting for it in the finance committee based on what I see here Madam chair yeah Cody um I know if if um if a an an individual Enterprise or private company um pays for it then you get the grants right the grants go directly it has to be a public a public service not directly tied to the to the company um so if they were eating all of that cost I think it's it's going to be a hurdle to the to the developer but if we were if we were to look at or have we considered looking at giving them you know a tax break for 10 years or you know to basically allow them the time to absorb that because there's a huge upfront cost to clean that Brownfield site up I mean the the the demolition the the known contamination of the site like it it's a huge ordeal I know that company specializes in Brownfield development and they make a lot of money off of it because there's money to be made um but I think if you throw this at them from from the onset and say Here's another $8 million that you weren't planning on uh I think that it's probably going to shut down that conversation really quick but if we were to go with with some other alternative to say you know you you eat this but but we will give you a tax break over the course of the next 20 years so give them 20 years to pay it off uh as opposed to the taxpayers um I will add though that even using private funds to run sewer and water lines in this town the way that the bylaws of the charter read the individuals along those those uh private lines are still assessed a fee a connection fee uh and are supposed to tie in to new sewer lines whenever they are run by their house even if it wasn't using public funds it just it's whether or not they can take it under their taxes or whether or not they have to pay a betterment fee which is a cash or a check that's paid directly to the town and you either have to figure out a loan or or whatever to to pay that so we would have to come up with some conversation about how we structure that um that either those fees are included within the the amount that you know devco or whoever the developer is for that property but you know if we're we're giving them a a tax break over the course then we need to calculate either wave the fees to the individuals at those locations or figure out how to calculate them in so that it's it's not a a barrier to you know all of those individuals that then are being told they have to connect and putut a $155,000 check to the town Madame chair yeah Mike um just my personal failing I mean so went by my house I had a betterment put on my house I'd much rather have a betterment that I pay over 20 years then after seven years to have to tie in and tie a connection pay a connection fee all up front at least with the betterment it's spread out you you don't even notice it on your taxes any other questions Mike what's I have one question what's the um is there any possibility of using water or sewer Enterprise money uh Reserve money for this or no it's it's allowed it's just whether um these what the board the commission feels whether they could cover this or what the hit would be to the rate payers right chair yeah Zach so we're talking roughly the town whether it's on water bills whether it's embedments or whether it's borrowed is going to spend somewhere around $5 million on this project one way or another whichever way you want to divide it out uh to pay it and there's no guarantees that Devo's going to do anything with that property it's been years already still going through the courts they may just walk away from it you don't know so my question is for $5 million can the town clean up that site I don't know that answer well yes cor I know at one point that site was being discussed about the location of the Town Hall there wasn't a an assess or a report or a study done on what cleaning up that site would be based upon trying to put the town hall there I don't I don't have that in front of me I don't know what that number would be we did a phase one and a phase two assessment so I I don't I know they have to do um a phase three assessment to do a final number um I can check with C if what number they came up with if they have rough a rough number imagine we'd have to look into like different types of Grants to to cover that off if we were talking about the town trying to do that instead of a private company doing it right and if the town did it rather than uh a large por and that coming from water feed another coming from betterment or tieing fees whichever way it went it would all be tax money and and would we be able to I mean is there governmental immunity that could D sue the town if we disturb the the site well we don't own the site right now obviously and we're always Larry about taking responsibility for the site um because you know we're not going to be able to borrow to clean up the site I doubt um the demo of the buildings would be have to be paid up front so I don't know uh I don't think we' touch the site to be honest with you generally if we if we had the site and we're trying to Market it we're not liable under Massachusetts law okay well it sounds like we all want more information based on public hearing and things so we can't vote on this tonight anyway it's not on the agenda so we will talk about this at a later date all right thank you thank you Steve thank you Steve and next I see Jennifer O'Neal in the middle hi everyone thanks for having us hello um I'm going to share my screen I have a few slides to share with you tonight just give me a second all right you should be able to be see the big Norton Public Schools um so I have a few slides that the fin finance committee has um probably seen a few times throughout the course of the budget process this year but um for you know anyone maybe watching this recording later or perhaps um someone that was not able to attend a previous meeting I want to make sure we covered a few things um for the committee tonight so over the last um hold on sorry I'm like in here we go sorry about that um over the last two years we have really um focused on One Core initiative is around um a multi-tier system of supports for all of our students that really looks at academic social emotional um looks at the whole child and figures out ways that we can um support them in in their day-to-day needs so um we have three core beliefs that surround the imts process um we believe that all students and staff belong in a safe inclusive and Collaborative Learning environment we believe that all of our students belong in learning environments where they have access to gr appropriate curriculum and instruction um and we also believe that all students belong in a learning environment where they receive just in time differentiated interventions and all the work that we've done over these last two years specifically has been centered around that goal of making sure that our students have access to high quality teaching and learning um and that we're focusing on core instruction and making sure that our students are mastering the foundational skills um really to make sure that we are closing that gap between um general education and special education um and identifying students as soon as we possibly can um right now this is our current enrollment these are the October 1st dates uh so as you can see we have 2486 uh students total um showing you the October enrollment data because that is where our finance numbers will come from the state uh 2,166 are Norton students uh we have 252 Choice students as of 101 uh 39 students that are enrolled in our DEA and heart of hearing program and at that time we had 29 students that were um placed in special education collaboratives or private schools based on their educational needs this year we focus solely on a level service budget so trying to retain the same level of services and programs that we have for our students um and as we've discussed many times over the last few months that level services for Norton Public Schools this year is a large increase it's a 12.01% increase or $4.1 million of those costs we have very much in the past always kind of shared the different cost centers for you um taking mandated educational costs which excuse me are special education costs but also um English language learner education translation services and homeless transportation for our students that are experiencing homelessness all of those things are um costs that we really don't have a lot of flexibility around and um we are required by state law to provide those those Services plus it's what's right for our students um and then the general education um it's kind of everything else as well as extracurricular activities Athletics um and any other cost that may come up um as part of the day-to-day operations uh of norin so when you take a look at the uh recommended budget for the upcoming school year you'll see that the mandated Education costs are 15.6% increase um on that cost center and then the general education is uh 9.84 all right and then this is something that's probably similar to the majority of you as well uh this was something that we wanted to share this year with the community to show how we actually got from our original fy2 24 budget to the recommendation of 38.8 million for this upcoming school year um a large percentage of of our costs came from contractual obligations due to salary increases um and as I mentioned the other night during our joint meeting um the elimination of sr3 funds over time a lot of those funds while they were one-time funds were used to keep teachers in classrooms during a challenging economic time uh this current year we are using um $550,000 of Sr funds to fund teaching and staff positions within the district um so that is something there that is um we need to compensate for um special education costs for uh out of District transportation IND District programming also looking at um cost increases of our regular transportation for students across the district um operations and management day-to-day as you know we've heard from so many of our um colleagues and other departments just the cost increases of everything just are you know growing exponentially day-to-day so um we feel that this has been a good way and people have been happy to kind of see the budget laid out this way how we got from one number to the other this is something that new that I wanted to share with you all tonight so if you take a look um at these Trends in special education funding this information is from NASDAQ the New England School Development Council um and it shows for Norton Public Schools what our expenditures have been over time so you can see from 2013 really up until the 20 2021 school year um our costs fluctuated right around that $88,000 range you see we go you know down to 7,800 one year we go up to 9600 one year but they're really pretty level in that um8 $88,500 range until you get to 2122 and that's where we see the costs really increasing it goes to um 10 million 10 we go to $10 million and 22 23 go to $1 million and then 23 24 we're now at $13 million so over a course of just four or so years we've seen um about a you know $ four to $5,000 increase here so I think that's really important for um the finance committee to see and for everyone that's on this call is just how exponentially our special education costs have increased over time um this is also new information um for the finance committee tonight um you may remember seeing a chart that looked very similar to this when we met um at our joint meeting this fall and then we met again at our joint meeting in January we shared with you the outof district costs that we have for our students um that are on special education plans and they were not able to meet their needs here in District um you'll notice on the far left that there are some numbers that are highlighted in yellow there actually eight numbers um if I counted correctly earlier um that are highlighted in yellow and all of those placements are either new or have changed um from the cost may have gone up a little bit it may have gone down a little bit um since the middle of January so not since the beginning of the school year not since September not since the last time you know we H had a you know joint meeting this is since January um and then number 33 which is highlighted in green that was a change this morning um so I wanted to share this with you for a couple different reasons number one um in the spirit of transparency to show that our projections have changed a little bit from when we started going through this process and they're actually um looking a little bit better uh for us but also because I think it's so important for you all to realize that this can change at any moment um this number 33 that happened this morning it's actually a savings to us of $146,000 off of our budget for the upcoming school year that's what we had projected that's what we had in our budget um and it changed this morning but um as I said to the school committee this afternoon don't get too excited because we also had a student register late last week that is in a collaborative placement and we are working on that final cost um that we will be taking over as soon as the child is finished with their enrollment um so I know we had spoken on Thursday night about the importance of projecting out um a more of a long-term budget plan uh and we are working to put that together for you uh we wanted to share that it just can be really challenging for us because of the these um cost changes that can really happen at any moment um this is the first year we've actually done this unfunded request piece as well um these are legitimate needs um that would actually really make us a better school um and be able to offer our students more opportunities if these were to be a part of the budget these were things that were put forward by our principles or by our department heads um and they are not part of this 12% increase that we have shared with you um you'll see that there is a fifth grade teacher a math teacher at the high school an English teacher at the high school those were all positions that were cut as part of the FY 24 budget process and the principles were asking to have those reinstated in order to lower class sizes um the kindergarten assistant that would be a par professional in every kindergarten classroom just for half the day just for the morning um kindergarteners are adorable and so much fun to be with but they're also an awful lot of work to be able to Wrangle uh 20 to 25 5-year-olds and six-year olds um during a day to really help them with their learning so ideally we would love to see um those students um have a little bit more support in those classrooms and a few other positions that um The Adjustment counselor for the bridge program um the bridge program is for students that are coming back from a long-term hospitalization or um a long-term absence from school um we have a really successful program at the high school and what we've found is that we really need to put something in place in our middle school and this year we were able to fund a position through grant funding um but unfortunately that position will no longer be a part of our budget for the upcoming school year so um all legitimate requests things that would make us better unfortunately we also understand that the reality it of you know what we are looking at as a community is um not a 12% increase um prior to our meeting on Thursday night the school committee and our administrative team had a really good idea of what would what it would take to get us down to 3% um that's 24 positions it also includes an increase in fees for clubs for activities and for transportation um there are huge line item cuts when it comes to instructional supplies and instructional software that are is currently being utilized in our classrooms um we have a few central office stiens for example um someone that you know does the inter Office Mail uh across our our dist district and brings things from school to school that would be something that as a central office administrator if you're going to visit a building you take their mail with you would that would be a change for us and then also some special education contract reductions so um reducing some of the opportuni and resources that we have um for students and for families in order for us to be able to give you information about what a two and a half a two a one um a zero would look like we need to sit down myself and the school committee and and go through um a little bit more of a comprehensive process to really outline what that would look like but I think it's really important for everyone to know that for those half percents it's between between two and three staff members and for full percent you're looking probably on the higher side of four um we put out some other ideas here um we talked about another increase to the transportation fee instead of going up $50 maybe putting it up $100 per student um we are will have to look at the elimination of non-mandated Transportation um based on Massachusetts General law we are only required to bust students that are in kindergarten through grade six that live more than two miles from school so if we had to look at deeper cuts um eliminating transportation for all students 7 to 12 and any students in K to 6 that live closer than the two miles um and families would be responsible for getting their children to and from school each day um we would be looking at um full elimination of clubs and activities based on you know the further de down we have to go as well as pay to-play ath atics um for both the middle school and high school at some point I want to be really clear that um all of these items that are in that reddish color could move or you know be prioritized in a different way based on um conversations that the committee will have over the next few weeks um and in partnership with our administrative team and I also think it's really important to note that it's the number of positions and the line item reductions in order for us to get to those percentage it is not an either or um proposal it would have to be both and of course um what the savings are in those potential line item reductions would greatly influence the actual number of positions that are are there in that line as well so if um you know a lot of families say Hey you know I'm going to um not pay the increased fee and drive my children to school we're not bringing in as much as we projected that could potentially be another staff position so we have to be really careful of that and that's oh sorry yes so that's it back can you back to that slide yeah of course happy to um so just I just want to be clear on a couple things the 20 let's just start with the 24 positions um how many of those are classroom positions um so right now what in what schools too like uh elementary middle so they're actually spread ac across all of the school um there are um about three positions at the high school there's about three positions oh sorry hold on I would say secondary there probably seven to eight positions um Elementary uh probably closer to three or four at this time um one of the things that we are trying to do first is look at positions that are more District support positions um but have been really impactful in the work that we do so it's unfortunate that we're looking at positions that are helping all students and all teachers but it's not necessarily a classroom position um we are looking at programming so thinking about um opportunities that our students may have in K to8 that um unfortunately are are nice to have versus have to have at this place um and looking at things that we can say you know we offer this in high school instead of um in you know K to8 and also trying to be creative about things that we could do after school similar to sports so a lot of our students participate in sports are there ways that we could provide students with other after school experiences that would be kind of in a similar realm um instead of taking place during the school day um as I've mentioned I think it's really important that my staff hear of specific actual cuts from from me personally or from their principal personally and not to hear it in a meeting so um I won't I don't feel comfortable listing specific programs or specific positions um but I think it's really important to say that there like really is almost everything is on the table at this point um can you explain the payto playay Athletics sure so pay to-play Athletics is something that we looked into a few years ago during another difficult budget season um and what it would mean is that the district would not pay for any athletic costs at all so what we would do is we would take a look at what does it cost to pay the coach what does it cost to pay the officials a ref or something um transportation to and from games uh Field Time Rink time if there are specific costs that go along with entering into a competition for example um my daughter is a cheerleader often we you have to pay to enter a competition all of those fees would be added up and divided by the number of students that would be on a team and each student would be responsible for paying their portion of the of the sport and so I'm sure you can imagine that in this sport like cross country where you have a lot of kids um you know one across country at Norton High School is a very popular sport tons of kids are there they're running um you can really run anywhere especially when it's cross country you're running outside um so the biggest things there are you know officials and transportation and you might be spreading that out among 75 to 80 students so the cost there is a little bit different versus varsity basketball where you might only have 10 students playing and you need gym time and you need officials and you need Transportation um and it actually you know when we've looked at it before there were huge differences based on what students chose to participate in and and what the bottom line numbers were Madam chair yeah Cody um Jen correct me if I'm wrong here but um there's already a lot of fun raising that's done by each one of those um Team teams y the boosters y um so you got boosters but they you know they're doing car washes and Raffles and everything else to help offset um obviously there's only so much you can raise and ask kids to raise so I mean you're you're getting to the point where you're just eliminating sports right like you you wouldn't be able to support it because not everybody's going to be able to raise enough and there's not enough booster money or donor money in town to support all of them and the kids who can't afford it and don't have the connections and parents can't chip in are the ones going to suffer the most so I know your question's kind of rhetorical Cody but I do want to respond to it um so I think that um it's a really unfortunate place when you have to get into something like payto playay Athletics um because you're pointing out the inequities as as they exist um so you know one of the things that we have always done as a school Community is help students and families when they are not able to um Pro you know pay the fee you know students on free or reduced lunch are already have an opportunity to play at either a reduced fee or um a a no fee based on their free and reduced lunch status that would have to continue legally um so that would have to be something that we would need to figure out in terms of where would that funding come from would it be covered by the boosters um would it be covered by the district would the number be divided by a smaller number of students um those are all things that we would have to really look into um I know there is a small number of districts across the Commonwealth that are in the payto playay business um I really hope that's not something that we're going to have to get into and that's as you can see it's it's the bottom of our list because of that reason is that you know we especially when we think about other opportunities that we want to be able to offer to our students it it's um it's a difficult place to be as a parent of a high schooler um I know know our booster is really active in terms of um providing the extras that our students wouldn't have without the booster so for example Banquets or senior swag or or things like that I can't speak directly for how the Norton boosters support um but I know that Dr bayetta and his tenure here really tried to kind of reain that in in terms of there are certain things that the town and should pay for and there like the booster should be paying for other things Nick I saw your hand go up first oh sorry Cody are you done yeah I just I had another another point but I can let somebody else go he yeah I think just a quick thing to add as well is you know when you're looking at pay to play you also got a factor in Title Nine you know so you have a you know just because I'm making this up but just because you know women's basketball might cost a fortune you know the we would still have to offer women's basketball if we had a men's team um you know so there there's other issues that pay to play brings up that is very you know basically what I'm getting at is I think it wouldn't just be pay to play in whatever sport these kids want to play get to play we would have to look at cutting Sports as well to to stay within compliance thanks Z Zack your hand was up yeah thank you um so Jen um out of the 24 positions I know you didn't want to get into specifics but are you willing to say how many of those are student facing positions yes I mean I I certainly can give me one second I just want to I don't want to give you um bad Intel um so just give me a second I just want to count while I have it in front of me I would say 19 to 20 of them so four Administration and roughly 20 student facing positions I would say that they are you know more support positions that we have um it's I think it's really important to note that there the last few years we've in central office we've cut um the financial analyst position that we had we cut the director of communications that we had um we've cut administrative assistance at um the Middle School um there have been other positions that have been cut too that we tried to save before we got to classroom positions and there's not a lot left um so I I think that is part of the of the challenge of trying to figure out where do you go from here okay and what is special education contract reductions um so for example we might have a contract with a local collaborative that supports um a family service so they might be working with families um whether it's in their home or counseling um and it's something that we can offer as a resource we would just not renew that resource and we would have to come up with different options for families um we also may have a um a consultant that comes into the district to um work with teams around students and sharing ideas we may not renew that service as well and just one more question do you know and you may not know this offand right now but what is our average class size currently and what would the average class size be if you went under a 3% budget yep so um it really depends on the grade level so um you know when we were looking at the elementary class positions I sat with the three Elementary principles um Mid last last week and we sat down and we looked at every single classroom across all three Elementary buildings and said where could we take these positions from to make the least amount of impact to class size um so we were really strategic in when when and how we selected those classrooms um if we were had to go a little bit deeper um you would be seeing Elementary classroom sizes going from 23 to maybe 27 in some cases um you might see them going from 25 to 28 um at the middle school um based on the positions that we are you know anticipating there the team model is a little bit different at the middle school um so it it retains some semblance of of shape that without really crazy moving those classes around um but we're also looking at a schedule change at Norton Middle School to hopefully um save some positions as well so instead of spreading 120 students out of five classrooms you're now going to be spreading them amongst four so um that distribution will be a little bit different at Norton High School um you're going to be seeing a lot more classes that will not run because we will not have the extra sections to run small electives so for example um if there is a sports reading and writing class that only has seven kids in it we're going to take those kids and we're going to redistribute them to different electives instead of running a small class um right now we have classes at the high school depending on the subject area we I know we have Spanish classes with almost 30 kids in them um and so again we tried to be strategic in terms of where would we be cutting these positions last year we cut a math position and English position from the high school so we would not be con cutting another position from those CL from those departments this year we look to other departments to make those cuts um but I could probably get you better class sizes if you guys were interested in that as well thank you very much Paul Scher you have your hand up next Peter I just want to let you know I want the fincom to speak and ask questions um and then we could we can take questions from the public Dr kind kind of a broad um a broad question um last year 99.6% for level service this year 12.1 if we gave you your full ask this year it still looks to me like you'd be coming back next year for another nine 10 per to keep or maybe more to stay level service and it's just not sustainable so I'm not sure what's wrong with the system but it's definitely you know you get a three to four% window if you're lucky and the ass to just Sky High so I'm not sure what the what the answer is but um it just it's not sustainable the way it's going so I don't know what your answer is well how much time do you have for me to tell you about all about what's wrong with the system um so I actually shared something earlier today um with the board chair so Paula as I sent it to finance committee great thank you um and it is a letter um to the um Governor which I've also shared with our local reps and our state senator as well yes around the inflation Gap so um what the inflation the actual inflation that we're seeing um in our schools and in our communities and what the inflation was for Chapter 70 funds um and I don't have the number off the top of my head but I believe it was somewhere in the 170 million 317 I don't even I can't even tell you I apologize 27 million thank you if if the inflation rep if the inflation reflect of Chapter 70 reflected the actual inflation rate what how much more money would be coming into schools across the Commonwealth um and how that it used to be a certain way and then because of um a very small change in the wording of the Chapter 70 um language a few years ago that has that has now changed we do not get that um inflation so there's a lot of things that are wrong with the um the funding system um for another couple things here you know we we've talked a lot about um special education costs for students that were not able to educate here in Norton um and as well as the transportation cost for getting students to and from um there is a certain percentage of that that is reimbursable um any dollar over that 40,000 is is supposed to be reimbursed to the to the district um and when that was first put into play many years ago the goal was to get it to 90% um we have only at the very most ever seen 75% um and last year for the transportation we were told we're going to get 75% and when we actually got our money in October we only got 57% reimbursement so there's a lot of things that are happening at the state level um that are really inequitable when it comes to funding education um and Norton is unfortunately in that sweet spot where we are too wealthy of a community to get any more than that minimum per pupil but we do not have the industry or the tax base to be able to make up the difference um so we're in a we're in a unique but not great spot so so Dr Neil notwithstanding that I mean we talked about it the couple of meetings back um the 2.76 increase in salaries um between step slides and the 2.7% raise and stuff that in it of itself is a deal breaker as far as the annual budget not even taking into account these sped and stuff yep so I think it's important for us to remember 550,000 of that was being paid in a grant and so that that's why it looks so High um and the thing that for us is a big factor is steps and Lane so teachers either spending more time in the community which we love when people stay they they love nort and they want to stay with us like we appreciate that but it's definitely a cost and then when they further their education and they move over on those Lanes it's definitely a cost as well so the cost of living increase is is one number that was the 2.75 for teachers but then the steps and lanes are also something else that um makes it a little bit more challenging to predict from year to year and lastly I have no idea um the needs or not but I know that um over the last 10 years or so we've G from having a principal to having a principal and a vice principal and adjustment councils Etc um I just don't know if there's um staff that can be truly whittel back to keep teachers in the classroom may even put aids with the teachers I know the kids can be a handful versus having that much Administration or not Dr n oh thank you Paul I appreciate that question because I think that's a question a lot of people have in the community um the dat today management of of a school is so unbelievably multifaceted it's it's really um eye openening when we when we go and we spend time in the classrooms um the principles are expected to be instructional leaders you know being in classrooms every single day um providing feedback to teachers evaluating supporting students talking with families all of all of those things things are um challenging and what we're also seeing is the mental health needs of our students um regardless of their age and grade level their social emotional needs are are so far um beyond what they used to be as as students um and it's really taking up a huge amount of time so the assistant principles um are are really spending a lot of time doing student discipline which I think might be the you know one of the most most challenging in thankless jobs in education is the role of the assistant principal because uh no one wants to hear when their child is getting called down to the office or whatever may happen um but a lot of those things happen and need to take place during the course of the day um and when you have a student who is disregulated to the point that um your concern is that they may hurt themselves or may hurt others um putting a PA of professional in that position it's um it's really difficult for that for that person and to have an administrator who is appropriately trained who can come in um has worked with the child perhaps has worked with a family um you know knows the legalities of working with students that may be in a disregulated state um if a student needs to be um de escalated whether that is using words and you know moving them to a safe place or sometimes you need to put hands on a student in a safe way so that they don't hurt themselves um it is very very different from my Catholic grammar school in the early 8s um I remember in my first grade class we had 36 students um and six of us were named Jennifer um you know early 80s here we are um but we sat there we sat in rows we sat in our desks um and it's it's a very different Dynamic than um what it used to be just to add to that Dr O'Neal if I could too I noticed in um both of my children's schools the yell and the Middle School oftentimes if you have um don't have enough subs for the day they've had to kind of take that role quite a few times I feel the assistant principal or principal has yeah I'm sorry I'm trying to stop sharing I don't know how I did that but Madam shair yeah Cody um Dr O'Neal I know it's it's impossible to use you know to predict um no one's got the crystal ball but we know for a fact that it costs more for us to send kids to other uh other schools other towns um Mansfield is opening up next year I think sixth grade and Beyond um I am exploring for my own kids the possibility if our schools go to c one of the reasons we love Norton and and moved here was because it has a great school district and it's a nice small town and you know you're not lost in a sea of 30 kids in a classroom if that changes and I'm not moving then the taxpayers are going to eat the bill you know um how how much of that is is taken into account we we've got you know a fun a flow of of school choice kids coming in you know a million dollars or so a year those kids are going to leave if they you know so we're going to lose that million but the 246 that we have half of them leave you're you're not you're losing more than you're gaining and you're also going to have a mass Exodus of other kids that are especially on the younger side before they get to the the high school age you know how much of that is taken into account here um and you know projections of what that worst case scenario is you lose 24 positions class sizes go up especially in the lower elementary those are formative years and you know they will school choice out so how much how much can we predict that um it's it's really difficult to predict so right now we have um about $117,000 of funds that are going out of Norton for students that are um selecting to go elsewhere so it's not a huge amount of of um funding that is leaving and we're bringing um this year bringing about $1.6 million in from school choice but you're absolutely right um as soon as you stop offering um a competitive experience not only are we going to lose the school choice students that we have here that are choosing to come to Norton but we're also going to lose our Norton families that that are living here um I hadn't heard that mansfi was opening up um K to six I think that's interesting um I'm a Mansfield resident six and Beyond oh oh sorry thank you six and Beyond I'm a Mansfield resident my son will be going into sixth grade next year at the middle school um my daughter's a freshman at the high school this year um so I find that really interesting um I think that we've done a great job getting into the school choice game and it has helped us to sustain a level of service for a number of years it's very very scary to think about school choice funds going away um this budget that we're sharing with you assumes that we are already using $2 million of school choice funds to help us get um to that level service budget without asking for our 12% and if we do not have students coming in we're going to be in an even bigger pickle than we are currently because when that money drives up there goes that Reserve that we've been relying on um I know denz is on the call we've had a lot of conversations over the last 10 years about um the use of one-time funds for recurring expenses and denz was the biggest champion for saying No this is should be technology it should be curriculum it should be things that are one-time costs but unfortunately as costs have grown over the years and um we have not been able to maintain level Services um that's what happens we we you know kind of take from the reserve to um to balance the budget and you know um as Mr Scher said earlier um Paul Scher that is sorry Nick not you um that it looks like we're asking for really really huge increases and we are because the reserve of school choice is going away the grants have gone away um and what we're seeing is a compounded need that we haven't been able to fill so it's I'm I just I I I know it's rhetorical it's a house of cards oh yeah and we are like hanging on the edge yeah I think denz has his hand up denz yeah I saw you hey apologies I I life of me cannot figure out how to do the the actual hand emoji thing so I try my best um I I want to revisit Paul's question um and I want to give Jen a moment to tell me to stop and not say anything um but the question about Administration and um the buildup of administration Etc and Jen's not telling me to stop so I'm gonna I'm gonna continue well I feel like I want to know what you're gonna say before I tell you to stop I feel like I I I may be saying more than I than I probably should um however I think it's important for not just the fincom but for for the public at large to to understand so we did actually look at the idea of you know Administration and what were the possibilities there with respect to cuts it gets us in a weird situation so here's the thing our Administration are on multi-year contracts and I I will tell you Paul that um again maybe saying too much we even went to the point of going to legal and asking legal what could we do within the parameters of these contracts and while they said there was a there there was a you know um your reduction in force your riffing basically there's the ability to to eliminate positions the wording of it was not it was they were not 100% clear that we would not be on the hook for one year's salary so yeah we we could potentially cut there and maybe be okay in the best scenario but the worst scenario would be we cut there we lose the person and we're still paying the money out as well so it's a tricky situation but I want I want to make sure that everybody understands that that is not something that we we never considered we considered it at length and I and I think we're probably I speaking for myself and and maybe some of the others on the school committee we're still certainly looking at it it's it's not completely out of the uh out of the realm of possibility yet so maybe Mr Zas that's something that has to be looked at moving forward with the contracts and people getting hired to make sure you do have a possible out yeah the thing is Paul it's tough it's tough to say to somebody hey we want to basically give you a you know an employment at will contract because nobody does that so it it would no one will come yeah it would tie our hands to the point if you can't get anybody to come in and work for you so I I understand you know particularly right now in this scenario I understand where that would be an ideal situation unfortunately sometimes with with respect to the labor markets some things are just not not doable they're not realistic and I I'm not sure that that's a that's a doable ask I appreciate that input yeah um and I think too you know there there is as crazy as it sounds there is a teacher shortage out there um and there are a lot of communities that have been looking to fill teacher positions especially in hard to reach areas like special education science math there's also a huge administrator shortage out there and we want to have good competent people running the ship um so it's it's really important that um we're able to create an environment that people want to come and work in nor as well teachers and administrators thank you Kevin I see your hand up yeah Madam CH I just wanted to reiterate was it last week or two weeks ago that and I know that if you talk about scale to the total budget this is easily the biggest slice of the pie but it's also the only Department that we lead in with what I'll say the budgets being presented in a defensive manner as opposed to every other budget we've walked through in an unconstrained aspirational manner um we saw 12% flash at the beginning of the deck that's no different than any other department the comp and Ben going up disjointed from the amount of Revenue coming in is not unique um so I mean we l we level these questions a lot more in this context than we do a lot of other departments and I still don't fully understand why um because this is this is every Department right every every bargaining unit has cost and living increases and contractual raises that are beyond the scope what we can bring in yeah that's a good point Kevin um one question I had or maybe just clarification so you were talking about using um you know our Reserve funds or one-time funds for recurring expenses and right now we'd be looking at even trying to get you to 2% two and a half 3% by using Reserve funds um so yeah I mean I think that a lot of us want to understand like what would happen next year if we used up our Reserve funds this year you know stabilization free cash whatever um what happens next year and then the year after not just for school department you know all the Departments um you know do we just give everyone zero% this year start from scratch and see what could happen in the community I don't know this this just seems crazy to me to just try to get all of our departments up to you know the minimum still needing to make a bunch of random cuts and move stuff around and then using up all of our Reserve funds um in the process and then next year coming back again um and doing this all over again and not not knowing if we'd even have as much free cash next year um Madam chair if I could just address our perspective um yeah I'll say my perspective I don't want to speak for anyone else um on the school committee or on my admin team um I appreciated the conversation the other night at the um joint meeting because the biggest fear that I have is going out for an override that's not enough and asking the community to come out for a $3 million override or whatever we decide that number is and knowing that the school department will still have to make Cuts in that situation um because I know I've been here for this is my 21st year in Norton I know that if we ever get that override it needs to be the right number because to come back again the next year and say oh we need more money is never going to happen so we need to make sure and this group of people along with the rest of the school committee and the select board we need to make sure we are all on the same page about what that number is if we want the best chance of making this happen so while I you know emailed all of newon public schools on staff on Friday and I said listen it didn't go on on the ballot this is the reason why this is the reason why I support that thinking because we want to make sure that we're doing this right that we're not just putting something together to push the can down the road so um with that said I you know for us to get to zero this year it's going to be really devastating to our department to our schools to our students um and that's why we're here um at the end of the day my job is to run the schools with whatever budget is appropriated by the town of Norton by its community members and we'll make that happen um but it might be pretty ugly mad you I think you said the other night that 5.2 million was enough number so that's that's our you know school that's where we kind of are now I know Zach had asked us to put together some more long-term projections which Christine and I have um started working on as well um the challenge for us is trying to figure out that sweet spot between what has the average increase been for special education versus what's the range over these last you know 10 years um and how do we kind of account for the variables that exist within within our data today Madam chair yes Mike um so um Jen and I were talking today and um we understand that the override question is something that obviously needs to be worked out more study but one of the things we need some help on some guidance on um is what is the finance committee comfortable with when it comes to using free cash and stabilization because we're going to have to have two budget if we go the um override route gonna have to have two budgets at town meeting we're gonna have to have one that's balanced and one that would need an need an override so you know I gave you those three scenarios I don't expect anyone to make a decision on that tonight um you know I i' just throw out there the 3% if you look at that we're still talking about 1, 328,000 in stabilization I I don't think that is a great idea I think that's a little too high um if we went to the two and a half% um and used $200,000 more of free cash so 1.2 million in free cash that would reduce the stabilization to 877,000 so you're getting a little more acceptable um so just at a future meeting if we could address it sooner than later maybe um you know what the committee's feeling is on uh what you'd be comfortable with we're cutting our budgets but it'd be nice if we had a direction the final Direction on that yeah Sandy why don't you go just because you haven't spoken I just ask Mike if if um you would consider going even you have 1.7 right in in free cash right um would you consider going a little higher in free cash um I guess personally my feeling is the stabilization is just a really slippery slope to to get into that um but you know free cash and I understand that we turn that back and then have next less free cash next year but um or in the fall but I feel like I would be a little more comfortable using a little bit more of that then all right thank you we'll obviously look at any suggestions and uh Zack or I'm not sure which one of you had your hand up first Zack Zack you wanna go I just speaking for myself I'll just reiterate what I said at the Joint meeting the other day I have I cannot support user stabilization funds without a plan to replenish them I mean we are now wiping out a free cash then you wipe stabilization what's left I mean you jumping out of the you know you're jumping out of the plane without a reserve parachute I mean I just I just think it's fiscally irresponsible to do so it puts the uh you know puts the town in a very bad place because I don't see it getting any better next year what are you gonna do next year what are you gonna do the year after the override thing is a total separate thing altogether whatever happens with that but if these are the funds that we have then the town needs a reset if taxpayer decide they're not going to accept the reset then they have the right to pass an override but these are the funds we have this is the reset uh and as they say let the chips lay where they lay and you know maybe that's what's needed I don't yeah ex Z I'm totally agreeing with you right now that's [Music] unusual oh denz so yeah um just to kind of kind of play off with what Z said and and answer I think Paul your question of so if if we get whatever 3% what does that mean for next year here's the thing right these these problems don't self-correct next year next year it's not a clean slate we start whatever at 3% we start 24 positions down and go from there we're going to spend down our stabilization we're going to spend down our free cash don't forget our school choice we're spending that down to zero so um I think we're using two correct me J two million of school choice and we bring it about six 17 so we're starting three to 400,000 in the hole right off the bat so these problems don't self-correct I mean what happens next year nothing we you know we're we're digging a hole and every once in a while we look and say wow this hole is getting deep I should probably climb out while I can it's too late we we dug the hole 20 feet deep you know none of us is 20 feet tall we can't get out of the hole now I mean this is you you can't fool your way out of this we have to make a decision I was a town I think and I hate to be very blunt and very callous about it we have to decide do we want to pay more taxes or do we want less Services it's a very very simple question right now quite frankly and and I I again I hate to be blunted about it but that is where we are at that's exactly where we're at to um add to your comment um we had some Reserve in school choice so we're not going into the negative um but we will definitely have less of that by by we're getting closer and closer and closer to the bottom right de facto the reserve we had will be a negative for next year when we we don't have a reserve to use as well yeah and the same thing with our circuit breaker um special education reimbursements uh Bill uh yeah to um to kind of Mike's question probably you know mirroring what Zach said probably uh saying what Cody's about to say maybe what denz has said um you know to answer that qu question what are we comfortable with we need to see what's coming so you know I need to see it in front of me I see how bad this year is so how bad's next year how bad's the year after or or you know it makes a miraculous recovery but I can't just say how comfortable I'm going to be with using stabilization or free cash if I can't see a little bit further ahead than just what's exactly in front of me Cody um just to the point on stabilization I'll start with the stabilization discussion um I will not support pulling from stabilization a single red scent not a single scent we did that as a stop Gap last year because of unforeseen increases and because we knew that we had the um the medic the medical expenses or whatever the reimbursement that was coming back in the fall and that dis that discussion was very specific to that situation that we knew that that money was coming back and it was going to be turned back to stabilization I don't know why we're having a discussion this year about pulling from stabilization for ongoing expenses because all it did last what we did is we made this situation worse this year because we kept funding things that we would have had to cut last year so that $700,000 that we pulled from stabilization we are $700,000 in a hole we're $500,000 in a hole for Messer funds drying up we're like all of this stuff that we've been utilizing as a stop Gap is non-recurring revenues to fund recurring expenses continues to dig the whole deeper I will not support any pulling of stabilization funds and I am not comfortable supporting another year of pulling a million ion dollar from free cash which is not reoccurring just to take whatever additional free cash gets certified in the fall and add into it where we end up at 1.9 million next year all we're doing is making the situation worse every year and the funds that are available from free cash every year will continue to decline because we keep pulling from them and they're not certified to come in every single year at the same amount it is fiscally year responsible and I will not support it Madam chair yes Shandy yeah I also wanted to bring up with the stabilization the other piece that's that's tricky about that is that requires than a two-thirds majority of town meeting right so that's another you know again I'm not personally um you know I said before I'm not really in favor of using that money but I think it's also gets tricky for other reasons as well um and I also kind of feel like the the free cash I'd like to decide we're doing in the spring um I'd like to not supplement in the fall right like if we're gonna whatever we're going to take from free cash now um let's have that be it um and not and even if we know we somehow get more free cash than we expected in the fall I I think you know we're going to need that for next Spring right so I don't think that that should be supplemented um any of those budgets in the fall yeah I a th% agree with that too um as as far as the free cash goes um you know whatever we use we're just using now no supplements for the fall um and I think Sandy you might have brought it up about us revisiting our financial policy manual that came up I don't know year or two ago um that we briefly reviewed then we were supposed to review it again um but I think it would make sense for us um after this town meeting I guess to have a brief meeting um to discuss and review that so we kind of have a policy going forward about the use of free cash um but yeah I mean historically we have use some free cash in the spring um for the operating budget and you know but using more of it doesn't make sense right now that's for sure anyone else have any comments questions for Dr O'Neal or the school committee Peter do you want to speak yes yes yet and on the and the sports fundraisers they do restaurant fundraisers at the Go Pub Pizza Time and the chapter which I take advantage of and and people need to respect you and the school committee and the S board for the decision that they made because we're gonna go down a bumpy road but everything will be okay right right Peter thank you all right anyone else questions comments Madam chair can I ask if the other vcon members feel about stabilization I'm kind of curious if we're on the same page or um if there's you know I don't want to lead mik down the wrong direction then have it all change when we vote yeah anyone feel differently that they think we should use stabilization money right now no way I think Mike got the message yeah thank you all right Dr O'Neal anything else for us no that's it thank you thank you so much for all of your time this evening thank you all thank you okay we still have articles did you want to do them now or do you want to wait till the next meeting it's you know it's kind of taking the can down the road which is what we do here in Norton just I'm looking for a white flag Emoji though come on people we in the midnight oil with me no okay you're gonna regret this when we're having two meetings a week in April mark my words F Mike's bedtime oh come on now my bedtime all right anyone have anything else can I justas one question would you beo would you be opposed to taking article 27 and 28 off the warrant that's the funding of opab and stabilization to put money into those accounts yes I mean it doesn't seem like that's possible right now Madam chair yes Bill Mike don't don't we do OPB in the fall we do we so we usually wait till the fall with these two yeah okay all right we'll to we'll take them off need a vote for that Madam chair we Mike do we have to vote to not have these articles on the warrant I don't think so right no yeah okay good job two down all right so I will entertain a motion to adjourn then for this evening I think we should I think we should keep going St want to keep going we have tree services is in revolving funds in chapter 90 which I'm not sure what that was uh chapter 90 um you want to keep going chapter 90 is article two that's to authorize the expenditure of funds received from the state under the chapter 90 program um $546,500 this year and the superintendent was talking about it's one of those programs that has not kept up with inflation um you know the the state throws a makes it look like they're increasing it every year but it hasn't kept up at all so I would ask that you recommend article two okay any questions or comments about article two Madam chair what exactly is chapter 90 and presumably These funds have to be ear marked for a certain thing right this this is um chapter 90 is the highway these are Highway funds so they're used for work on all on the roadways this repaving this goes into the general fund no it it's a strictly used for Road work any other questions comments Mike was that a big increase this year or is that the norm no um I don't I don't think it was an increase I think it might have been a little decrease to be honest I think it was a tiny bit less when I looked at it when you read the letter it sounded like they were giving you the world like something giv yeah I think um so the the formula that they do it with its road miles and population and uh Workforce in your community and the problem is they have the same pool and then when they split it up our population didn't increase much like the other towns did so that's why we got a little less all right this just sits in a separate like account that we can pull from for specific Highway for Road use right what we what happens is um Highway does a road job and they send that to the state and then they reimburse us for that and where do the funds go like what are we where are we sending with the vote so if if we do work um repaving a road um Jared will send that information to mot and then they'll reimburse us for the that work and the contract gets paid so this the 546,000 is the reimbursement from last years that's coming to us no that's what we're allotted for this year so as yeah as we do projects we'll receive the repayment okay I got it correct me if I'm wrong Mike I don't think we've ever as long as I've been on this committee allocated one penny for road paving other than this chapter 90 money correct uh we do some small stuff but very small yes right comments on article two okay for the expenditure of $546 $5 46,5 for chapter 90 so moved second okay all right sorry Joe's not here tonight bill you can take that role thank you please and thank you um okay I'll take a roll call Kevin yes Steve yes Trace yes Sandy yes Bill yes yes Paul yes Cody yes Zach yes I to yes n yes for article two okay um article three is for tree services um this a program that the highway department has where they bring in contractors for trees that are wires or trees that are larger than they can handle and the highway department is looking for $31,000 um for this and I'd recommend that it come from free cash okay questions about article three yep Madam chair yes de Mike how much have we spent over the last the last three years on this and how much is really left what's the plan on treating trees I know they've been aggressively cutting them down um that's that's what this is for is for the removal of trees and he's he has spent it every year do we still have identified trees potentially we need to clear up yeah okay what is this amount compared to the last couple years it's been the same all right any other questions hearing none the chair will entertain a motion to recommend article three to transfer $31,000 from free cash for tree services so move second Kevin yes Steve yes R yes and um let me share my screen we just finishing the roll call Mike oh I'm sorry Sandy I'm sorry I didn't hear you yes Bill yes Paul yes Cody yes Zach yes and I to yes nine yes for article three um this is article 11 and uh this would reauthorize um the accounts that we have have um these are the revolving funds and as part of this um we want to increase the spending limit we sent you uh this today um originally we had um the limits as they've always been and what's changed is under the recycling fund um we're looking to increase that from 10,000 to 20,000 I guess that's a a good thing that means people are coming down to the highway department and utilizing the services that we have there um and so this is a they pay to have different items dropped off and the money that goes out of this account is to pay the companies that take that away and um the next one we changed is the Council on Aging revolving fund and the spending limit on that previous was 10,000 and we're looking to increase that to 15,000 any questions oh sorry if I Sor right if I can just mention one other one the storm waterer bylaw revolving fund um I'm going to have to talk to the planning board on this we did set this up a few years ago um and um I'll talk with the planning board about trying to utilize this fund um the main thing with this I Keith came to us years ago and with some of these new subdivisions there's detention basins that are put in and then he is Highway Department stuck maintaining those so this would if the planning board when they approve a subdivision could make a contingent upon the developer paying into a fund this fund the storm water revolving fund that then would be used to maintain those base at least at least get some money into that for that hey questions comments on article 11 Mike how much do we how much do we bring in for fees for the recycling um let's see FY 24 uh so far 13,45 so it's not really an offset we are truly expending a little bit more than we're taking in um no 13458 oh yeah for what it was it was it was close it was 10,000 before so yeah okay so far this year we spent uh 7,000 $851 but it just so people know it's a great way to get rid of things and one of the things that is driving up the cost obviously is getting rid of mattresses didn't we do an article about for that though M or was that like from them picking it up off the side of the Road or something James and I was joking about that today this is to get rid of the stuff that people actually pay for us to get rid of that other one is for the people that just dump it on the side of the road that we got to get rid of Madam share yeah Kevin Mike we're talking these revolving accounts talking fully self-funded through fees collected and costs outward and so they're all self-contained systems we're just looking to raise the limit on like the credit balance we can carry in this revolving account that's right that's right Kevin y all right thanks okay any other questions on article 11 hearing nothing the chair will entertain a motion to recommend article 11 to authorize revolving fund annual expenditure limits we have to specify each one or yeah do we have to read that Mike um specifically Recycling and COA no just say as presented as presented still moved back Kevin Steve yes trce yes Sandy yes Bill yes Paul yes yes yes I yes nine yes for article 11 that's it all right thank you did it Madam chair hang Mike hang on us one second yes go ahead Z so Mike without the use of stabilization funds what does that look like for a percentage increase would' be looking at probably 1% okay thank you yeah Madam chair yes Andy are we have we decided that we are going to be presenting two budgets or is that something we do decide or who decides that yeah who decides that Mike um I think that has to be a discussion um with the school committee and the select board and the fincom um later on and for purposes of our processes so say they do decide to show one budget with the 1% increase just for for argument sake and then one budget with the level Services funding for all departments and what that would mean obviously not a balanced budget at the end of the day um we would have to go line by line of each budget with our recommendations correct correct yeah good year to be Che Paula what good year to be cheer so excited about this let's go people aren you yeah yes so so Mike is is the is the consensus I guess from the select board to bring this to town meeting first and if it does pass whatever number they decide it will uh they'll bring it to a ballot later or it hasn't even been discussed yet um it hasn't been discussed yet but it's too late to get it on the April ballot so you we would have to go the other route go to town meeting and go on from there and that amount would be discussed would be the select would to to vote on what amount they'd be looking to raise right thank you madam chair yes Cody just so I'm clear so when we if we're going to double like the two budget route and we're going line by line Department by Department what our recommendations are let's say the town votes based upon what our recommendations are and it's split between the two that combines budget the total amount that comes up with that then has to go onto a special town meeting that the select board has to establish 35 days out whatever that whatever that special election special election so it has to go to a ballot special election and then that gets voted on and if it doesn't we then have to hold a special town meeting to come back and re revisit the budget no you would approve a balance budget and you would approve an a second budget that's subject to an override okay and if the override doesn't pass we just rever it back to the balance budget Madam chair so hold on Mike just to clarify that quickly sorry Zach so we would recommend the 1% budget in addition toing with vote a balance budget and then we vote budget subject to an override and if so committee we wouldn't like choose one or the other that we would recommend to town meeting um I'll I'll check on how the language would go with that yeah Adam chair but you could go ahead but Paula just to be clear I uh the select board would have to tell us that we're going to put a $2 million override $3 million override $4 million override on the ballot and then we'll say okay we got $4 million what do we recommend where to recommend it it's I don't think I don't think it's us to tell them unless they ask for our opinion I think that's I understood it as we'd have um the budget that would need the override would reflect everyone's level service ask so everything that we've been seeing from the Department the 12% from the school department the 56% from the Council on Aging we'd see that budget and we would recommend that and then whatever that deficit we're seeing if it's that 5.5 million deficit that we were seeing the first um Revenue expenditure sheet that Mike gave us that would be the amount that then I guess the select board after the town meeting maybe even that night could meet and that would be the amount that they would recommend to put on the ballot that would be 35 days later am I does that make sense am I right so what with you'd recommend a level level funded budget and you'd recommend a budget that requires an override you'd recommend both but the level funding budget would require an override right uh well I just I just meant like the 1% budget oh yes the balance budget balance budget you'd recommend that and then you'd recommend subject to an override this budget so if the override passes you'd have the budget in place but Mike it's gonna be a lot of work the select board has the ultimate say on what that override amount is and what they want to put on the ballot Just because we or or ended they could say just like the other night went to join meeting and they said okay one vote would be to put it on the ballot the second vote would be how much so they could come back to us and say no we don't want to go for $6 million we want to go for $3 million give us a $3 million budget I me it's totally up to them yeah you'd have to get we'd have to get that number in advance from the select board that says you know this we would support putting this on the ballot so Madam chair can we talk like next steps are we we talking about a joint meeting that we're going to hold soon to cash this all out or what's what's the process from here and I suggest I I I would think we should schedule another meeting really just to have Tom councel there to explain the process to everybody so everyone's on the same page that would be great okay is it is it unrealistic to say that if town meeting passes a a budget that recommends or that needs an override is it unrealistic to think that this the select board would override town meeting like if town meeting passes it why would they override the legislative body doesn't make any sense doesn't meeting is the legislative body of our government select board is part of the executive branch so why like town meeting sets the budget why would the select board override why would five individuals over ride hundreds of of individuals doesn't make any sense well if everybody I mean as a practical matter if everybody's not in agreement it's going to be dead on arrival to begin with if there's already biger in between the number so I mean that's a totally different thing I think but for us at this point this is the money we have we need to recommend a 1% budget and then whatever is decided down the road we'll do a second budget I guess prior to town meeting everybody is that the way I understand it Mike yeah yeah and I think we we hash out the details so the same way we're hashing out the details on the 1% we'll hash out the details on what we would recommend for going to town so that I I I expect that'll be a conversation between us and the the other committees the select board and school committee another joint session figure out what everybody's kind of comfortable with everybody comes with their wish list whatever we we have a lot of conversations Whittle it down say what we're going to recommend not recommend and go you know that that will be the recommended budget that ends up in the warrant as the secondary override necessary budget and just to make it clear a 1% balanced budget won't use stabilization but it will have to use free cash y yeah I think at this point using the free cash that we've normally used somewhere between what 750,000 to 1 million or whatever um for this year is reasonable but like I said I feel like as a committee we should revisit that Financial policy manual after this town meeting and kind of decide as a committee what we want to do with free cash going forward I feel like there is some discussion that needs to happen amongst us um going forward after this year so Mike you will start an email I guess to schedule this joint meeting in the near future okay I will and and Madam chair I guess Mike seeing that most people are in agreement about not using stabilization funds here um I assume you'll notify everybody that to plan on a 1% budget notify everyone that what about the 1% budget the plan on a 1% budget yeah Madam chair yes I have a motion to adjourn second okay motion a second I'm very happy Okay Kevin yes Steve yes Trace yes Sandy yes Bill yes oh yes yes Zach yes and good night hi to yes and good night thank you all