##VIDEO ID:vofEGSjAeNE## going to get the meeting started 7 o'clock if I can just do a quick roll call um Kevin here um Gavin here hello hi Paul here Steve here Grace here Brandon here bill here Paul here Z here Onnie here all right that's everyone except for one all right um Mike do we want to get started with an update Financial update Okay so um our free cash was certified um at$ 6 m254 39 and I want to thank uh the financial team and James pello for the work they did on that um it's uh not often that you have uh you all your information turned in and your free cash is certified a week out after that and that's because of all the great work they do that um weren't many questions from the state I want to thank them for that and um I know James is on if Fe wants to talk a little bit about the free cash um our free cash you know some of the money in the free cash was 500,000 remaining from last year's free cash um we early on uh back in December knowing that things could be tough we put a spending freeze on on the town side and uh so that helped with our turn backs of $1.3 million um and then obviously uh the sale uh the auction sales that we had last summer um generated um a substantial amount of money um and we didn't know what we could do with that money until um the end of August when they SP they finally uh legislature acted on that Supreme Court decision um so out of that money uh the treasurer feels that 162,000 is Poss it's possible people could come back um looking for uh reimbursement for any of the money above the taxes um but she feels that the other properties were all taken before the deadline uh that was put in the legislation so about 160 out of I think it was 770,000 James um would be available um I mean would have to be could be potential um but would have that money in our stabilization if someone did did come back Mike is that going to be an addition to the million that you want to put in stabilization or is that part of the million uh it would it would be part of that um you know I'll go back I'll go to the select board Thursday and have a discussion on the uses of um the free cash um you know if we put at least a million into our stabilization we should be up over the 5% that we need or is recommended uh for stabilization and uh probably look at a million or more in capital we put a million in capital last year um and you know we'll hold some for snow and ice and then we'll have uh have to use some money for supplements in the fall and also for retirements and I ask M that we go back to to talk about the couple documents that we had while we have James here um the um turn backs and then the June report can we ask a couple questions on those yeah go ahead all right um so one of my questions on the June report was I noticed there were um 10 categories where um the allocation was higher than what it was in May um there were like $130,000 extra I know we made one transfer from reserves in July um for the data processing for 11,000 but I'm not sure where the other nine increases came from okay James um um you're talking about May of 2024 right right so from May to June the May numbers matched what I had had my totals but then June there were several um Police Department that were hire um it is I'm not looking at those numbers right now but it is possible that there were supplements at the October town meeting um the only thing I can think of because the only way to increase those budget would be through Finance Reserve transfers or through uh supplemental Town meetings Artic also would that have happened between May to June I mean May everything all the town meetings what I you're saying May of 2024 yeah yeah so going from May to June the numbers changed for the the budget supp data processing you're saying right no data processing I understood but there were like nine other categories town clerk Municipal Building Maintenance Police Department Highway that all went up slightly the uh police department I can tell you um let me just let me give me one second and I I'll get back to you let me just check um and then in terms of the um turn backs the one that kind of stuck out to me was the um the fire department I noticed that we had given them uh 233 ,000 is a fall supplement and then they turn back 287,000 in the the spring um so I'm just wondering what changed from the fall to the end of the year that resulted in them no longer needing that extra money that we gave them in the fall one James looking I'm sure what it was in the fall they anticipated um needing more overtime and they didn't have to use it so um that that would be the turn back okay so give me can I speak now yeah go ahead James sorry um the highway department uh had a retirements and uh we had to move money from the retirement separation expense account to fund those payouts we moved about uh 32,000 into the highway department and also the Police Department we move 45,000 into the police budget out of the retirement separation articles um I know the payout in the police department was higher than that but he only needed that at the end and what we've been doing is if they only need 45,000 we only transfer 45,000 instead of having you know ask for more than than what they need those are the only those are the only two departments that I show that uh that I move money into from the retirement separation account at the end of the year um the other were all due through uh Reserve phone transfers because we did not have any budget supplements at the May special town meeting right okay we didn't really have a whole lot of Reserve transfers either which is why I was confused when the numbers went up can I just send I don't want to take up everyone's time can I send you my list that I have and you can maybe um get back to me on those specific items uh sure if you tell me what the number was at the end of May and what it was at the end of June based on what you have okay I can tie it out okay perfect thanks James anytime thank you um does anyone else have any questions on the turn backs on that piece of it Madam CH yes sir um I don't know if this has to do with turn backs or not um over the past week there have probably been a lot of emails going back and forth and and whatnot on this whole subject of you know the the certified amount in 20124 I don't want to do it this meeting but I'd like to have a refresher on what the process is why it takes so long and why we're unable to better judge this you know in a future meeting because because I think there are a lot of questions out in the public I think based on some of the emails going back and forth you know there were a lot of finger pointings and that kind of stuff over the past week week or so so I think it would behoove all of us to kind of sit down and go through this process again a little more in depth not tonight um to get a better handle on this maybe it you know each side can understand a little better as to what's going on and why it's this way and maybe we can prevent some of this in the future thanks I think I think all of us were uh having our phones and emails blowing up this past week I think you know for sure if there's a way we can get ahead of um you know such a big number like that and knowing that further in advance um I'm all for you know being able to have that information sooner so we can you know clarify the objects I think around what what happened here anyone else on on that or other issues with the free cash Madame share yes I would just like to add uh what amount of money were you guys expecting in free cash this year so I can speak I can speak for myself I know back when we started the process in March um you know I I even went back to my notes because I thought maybe I was misremembering but back in when we started the process in the spring we were told this year's free cash was going to be lower than last year that last year we got that extra million because of the insurance holiday and we wouldn't be getting that this year so I know a lot of my decisions personally were made based on the fact that our free cash would be slim now so the spending of um you know the extra $500,000 that we turn back in the spring to from free cash last year that we didn't spend we were trying to be fiscally conservative with the idea that our free cash was going to be lower and you know typically I think the guidelin is three to 5% so I think when it's significantly over that um it does come as a surprise and and again especially given that we were really you know in the beginning and we inform that it was going to be lower than last year um that personally informs my decisions and it makes it hard to make decisions when when I'm thinking it's going to be lower and it ends up being much higher um than than typical years and even higher than the year last year which was an anomaly so that that's my take on it I don't know if anybody else has thoughts or wants to answer James's question Madam chair can Paul I had I went back in my notes and I had those same notes from that March meeting um so I have those that same memory of thinking that we were going to have less preash um James question for you though um about the interest on the money that was supposed to be used for the building projects or put aside for the building projects to gain interest when did you know that we had that windfall of interest when did you realize that I've known since the interest rates went up uh last year long time ago that uh we were going to have a big amount of Interest return I didn't know it was going to be as much as it ended up being because I didn't know how much uh money we were going to be holding on to but I can tell you that it's just not the Project's money that that is earning interest that's probably 20% of it it's it's just basically give money Grand money uh general fund money in general uh tax money we hold a significant amount of cash at hand at any given time uh or Treasurer has been very aggressive uh pursuing the banks that are paying the uh the highest interest you may recall we had the uh The Prudent investor article where there was a lot of discussion on she's been trying to find ways to make the town more money uh we went from banks that were paying less than 1% to over 4% when you're talking about millions of dollars that's a big it makes a big difference you know I just didn't know how how when the rates were going to go back down if they were going to go back down um but it was not I didn't think it was a secret obviously it was because obviously nobody knew from what I can see now but I can tell you that I was counting with that money only to make us Break Even or close to what we got in free cash the years before because we started with 500,000 so if you take 500,000 from 6.2 you're at 5.7 and then uh the uh the auction money we didn't know until about two weeks ago that we were able to close that into free cash we were going to have to hold that aside in in an agency account and and not into free cash at that point we would have been at close to what free cash was last year or maybe a little under another uh item that I was not expecting was the turn backs to be as high as they were because budgets were being cut I I didn't expect the school to to you know return 300,000 plus you know it happens but I'm not discouraging the pment from returning funds I I want people to realize free is is a good thing for the town it's not a negative it's a positive we're using the free cash to to uh fund our stabilization fund build up our reserves opep uh those articles we have account meetings and also um if if we start telling dep departments that if they turn money back they're going to get cut you run the risk of people uh you know spending to the penny just because they're afraid that they're going to lose the money I just I don't I don't understand why having free cash is such a a bad thing if you look out uh over the years that that PR I sent you today over the last 10 years with if you add all the free cash from every year we're over 4 something million dollars where is that $40 million we don't have it we spent it free cash is going back into operations it's going back into Capital it's going back into the stabilization fund is just part of operations personally I consider about a million to a million and a half as operating Revenue because we kind of build into the estimates a a buffer so that we can generate the free cash because without it we can't operate and we need to to have at least over three and a half closer to four in order to to be successful and and and able to to run the town um I I'm kind of getting a feeling that some people are frustrated because the override pass or didn't pass or they may believe that uh you know me as a town accountant or Mike as a town manager were on one side or another side of the ballot I can tell you I if the override passes it makes my job easier there's more money to play with if he doesn't pass it makes it harder but at the end of the day I have to do my job and I'm not here to hide information from anyone um not one time a single member of the finance committee asked me about free cash you know all all people care about what's the expenses not the revenue pretty much it's it's the way I saw it and at the end of the day having 6.2 million this year is great we have money now that we can use to fund the uh the ization fund and the capital projects rather than Leasing and paying high interest on uh Capital purchases maybe we can buy some of them cash to avoid having to pay high interest and um you know that's the way I see it but I am not trying to hide anything from anyone you know there were some accusations made that you know we were trying to to hide the money when did we know I knew all along I you know the town manager knew knew all along too the town treasurer knew knew it um some members of the finance committee may have known it if I talk to them over the phone um you know um I just don't understand why it is such a big deal because 6.2 million once you take the auction money that we didn't know about and the beginning balance of free cash we're right below what we what we had last year if you take the interest money we're actually way below now we're below three and a half um yeah I know what the goal is is the goal for us to not have free cash at all and then deal with worse consequences that we had to deal with this new year that there were cuts at the school and cuts everywhere you know we just need more apprciate yeah I appreciate everything you're saying James and I don't think free cash is a bad thing either I don't think you're hiding anything I I was just curious because I think that sometimes you know we just don't know what to ask I guess and I wasn't aware about you know the interest and um you know if if that's something that you know should be shared on a regular basis with the finance committee just so we're kind of having an idea of what we might expect um from free cash I know this coming year interest rates are going to be going down and so this will probably look different next year and you're not going to have as you know that money from the projects sitting in there either um and I also agree that that just because we have that too million or then the you know 800,000 from the auction you know that should not be spent on our general operating budgets um and agreeing that that should go into the stabilization in capital funds and opep um but I appreciate everything you've said we've been very lucky over the last five years there's always been some type of surprise receipt that comes in you know whether it be the blue star inspection fees the nyum inspection fees the year before the the holiday the health insurance holiday there always something that kind of saves the day at the end for us to have a high amount of a high amount of free cash but that amount only lasts until the October town meeting because by then most of it gets depleted we we put it into different funds or articles or supplement budgets you know yeah and those you know those unexpected um those unexpected funds that we receive that become free cash you know should be for unexpected expenses um in my opinion but I agree 100% with that uh but sometimes too you you have to decide between laying somebody off or hiring somebody in the meantime until you try to find another way to to fund the budget you know and and that's just the way it is I guess but the you said the turn back sorry one more the turn backs I just want to make sure I have the number right the the budgets were 1.3 million yeah 1.3 to speak yep okay thank you so much you're welcome and can I just ask I I I was just kind of going through the numbers 1.3 in turnback 770 for the auction um 500,000 from prior year free cash 1.5 for the investment income that takes me up to 4 million do you know what the other two million is is from uh if you go to the receipts uh Auto auto excise was a big one yeah we collected uh and and to be fair the auto excise uh tax is one of the items that we underestimate in order to to have a little bit of a buffer and generate some free cash uh that one came in uh way higher than what we expected uh that generated another 8 to 900,000 of the of the number and then the the remainder are miscellaneous small receipts uh you know I'll have to look at the at the chart start to tell you what the little ones are uh I can tell you that the well building inspection fees were a little bit over um they were under in total from the previous year but they were over what we estimated by a little bit so when you add all of those up you come up with the close to the the figure the 6.2 James do you have like a just a breakdown of that that you can send to us I can do that thank you yeah other questions from oh one last the excise tax is very hard to to know what the amount will be until really late in the year the the excise uh tax bills go out in late late February so most of the the money comes in March April May and June and and by then the town meeting is already done you know so we don't really know what the last figure will be until we close out the year L later in uh end of July or beginning of August the same can be said with the appropriation returns a lot of the Departments will encumber their budgets to the penny if they can ERS will return a little bit here and there we don't know what the final turn back will be until all of the bills are paid all of the encumbrances are received so so it's impossible you know can you get an idea of what it is can you get a guesstimate yeah you can look at the previous year what people did and kind of eyeball it but it varies from year to year I mean there could be for instance the fire police department they could have a couple of guys out sick right at the end of the year and that's going to bring the overtime expense up there's a lot of unknowns you know or it could be a good year nobody's sick now they have a surplus you know thanks James chair yesac just to address uh what James is talking about and what I think he's missing here is we found out this news just a week ago only by the chance of me question questioning the town manager eight weeks prior to that James and I know you're not involved in politics we had an election where we had our local officials Town manager a school superintendent going in front of the public and you know basically CED poverty we've reached the fiscal cliff we're falling off the edge we're broke and I do get people got laid off people got laid off in the school department and nobody from the town hall yourself included came and said okay guys wait a second maybe it's not that bad we G have some extra free cash in the fall this was eight weeks ago eight weeks ago nobody crickets came and said hey maybe we should lay off a r teer maybe we can refund those positions music art some of them in the fall nobody was crickets instead it was a doom and gloom scenario and that's why the public is is upset and my phone's been ringing off excuse me so Zach eight weeks eight weeks go ahead let me finish my phone's been ringing off the wall all week and you've seen what the reaction of did on social media even though I don't engage it uh people are just upset the Optics are horrible horrible you couldn't I mean you couldn't make it any worse I mean the public perception right now of town hall that everybody's in carpet whether that's true or not everybody can come up with their own opinion but it is horrible Optics and it's you know what I can tell you right now James within the next 10 years the word override should never be mentioned by anybody in this town because it will lose by a larger margin than you saw in the last election because the trust has been broken with Town Hall Zack eight weeks ago the discussions with this finance committee and the direction from this finance committee was we don't want to use free cash that that was the Direction one of your one of your members one of your members who's no longer a member didn't want to use any free cash different animals to what I'm talking about Mike so Mike if I can can respond to that I think you know I was one of the people and I still am one of the people who don't doesn't want to use free cash on ongoing expenses but I also you know said if there's any chance that we're going to be adding back in or we're going to have the money to add things back in in the fall like you know police and fire overtime I wanted to factor that into my decisions in in in the spring um I think you know we were talking about police station closing on the weekends and you know all of these kind of dooming Gloom to Zach's Point um that and even that 500,000 you know potentially would have been something that I would have looked at um had I known that we were going to get a big windfall in in in the spring in the fall so I think again for me it's just about knowing as much as possible as far in advance as possible so we can make the best decisions possible Madam chair yes I think I think correct me if I'm wrong but regarding excise taxes that's a portion of it we said we forecast it low because sometimes it comes in high and that gives us a little extra free cash so what we're talking about is hedging back a portion of the budget to create cushion for ourselves I can't imagine the excise tax is the only place where we're hedging back that's something we've got to it's got to be clear cards on the table what we're hedging back if there's hedges in the p&l that should be cards on the table not a hedge and unhedged view of of the p&l with well this is normally four but we're going to tell three and then if it comes in four great then it came in five and now it's a go crap this is this is way too favorable we have a problem Madam share yes James uh what we're doing here is nothing different than any other town in Massachusetts we need to have free cash uh every town needs to have free cash uh close to 5% of the budget I understand this year was higher than usual but if you look back we've been under or over um having free cash again is not a bad thing I think the problem we have is some people don't understand it and maybe that is the problem we have maybe we haven't been good at delivering the message of what free cash is and what it should be used for uh we're we're not trying to to hide cars we're not trying to do any of that we're just trying to generate a little bit of free cash so that we can continue to operate the way we've been operating for the last 20 years or longer but James what we need is a sensitivity analysis that says okay here's where we're hedging if all these things pull through there's potentially another three million that comes or not you have assumptions that aren't clear on the paper it sounds like there's two sets of like a financial planning analysis there's two sets to this there's the what the number I think it is and what the number we're going to say it is I don't I I I don't disagree that happens people do it I get it but it should be there should be a range of outcomes for these things you're suggesting that we prepare uh the highest budget possible that generates the least amount of free cash and I'm telling you to generate a budget that has a range of outcomes and we understand what your thinking is low scenario is XYZ High side is this then there's a range of scenarios to talk about well I can't tell you though that what we've been doing for the last 20 years has been working we've generated enough free cash to get us through the year and and buy the capital items we need to buy with it um so you know that's all I can tell you it has been working if we go the other way and try to you know increase budgets which then those budgets increase by three to 5% a year after that and continue we're going to dig ourselves into a hole that we not not be able to get out ever and I agree with sack I don't think an override will pass that's just my opinion but not necessarily because they don't believe in us I believe it's just they don't want to pay more taxes it's it's simple so James I would just say a couple things that you know the past it's really the past eight years that we've seen you you know these bigger numbers um eight to 10 years or so that and then we've also been been a lot um throwing our St throwing money into stabilization increasing that fund which is our emergency fund so I think together the two are pretty high right now um and I guess I just would would like to take a look at that and see if you know combined maybe we can get them in a 10% range and and keep them at that point so that we have you know certainly I don't want to cut it too tight um I don't want to go below what the State recommends but I think you know if if we can get it a little bit closer so that we can have that money to spend in the current fiscal year because the reality is while free cash is only supposed to be used for one-time expenses we' we've spent to your point one and a half million every year on the budget so we've gotten into that habit people have expected that um people think we're always going to come back in the fall and give police and fire over time it's just we've gotten sort of into the cycle that um I thought this year we were going to break um and now I'm not not sure where everybody stands in terms of you know how we're going to spend this money so I think you know that's a conversation for a later date but um I think that's you know some of my concerns anyone else from the committee have questions or comments Madam chair if I may yes Brandon uh hi James I'm Brandon Noble I'm uh been on fincom this is uh my third meeting so uh nice to meet you I guess I just want to reiterate from me and residents that have reached out to me No One Believes free cash is bad I can't reiterate that enough um the thing is is um people it really was divisive to the town and I I don't think uh anyone here is advocating for you know hiring additional positions with free cash I just think you know overtime right uh different supplements like that um this could have helped and I mean I know you're saying it isn't that much higher but I just did some quick numbers and if you look at the last five years it's about $4 million right we came out to 6.25 so that's over 50% of the average for the last couple years that's a a ton and it's it really is Optics um you know we this town really beat each other up and surprise you know we have this free cash that is you know it just it the Optics are horrible and um I just wanted to reiterate no one thinks free cash is bad no one saying let's you know hire all these positions based on you know one time uh cash coming in or or free cash but um it's too late anyway right people that were laid off um you can't and hire them back but maybe you know this money could have funded um other projects for the school that then could have funded you know positions where they wouldn't have gotten laid off so I just I I can't reiterate enough Optics are are horrible and um yeah it just it's not good I I'm kind of at a loss for words to be honest thank you um James can I ask also a question about the the money that I know this came up a few times the money that we borrowed that we didn't spend is it is it typical to borrow that all at once I know you said there were other um there were other monies in that account that that earned the interest but it was also partially explain that it was because of the borrowing that we did um and then the project was delayed the projects were delayed is it typical to borrow all all the money up front like that and um doesn't that hurt us in terms of the interest we're having to pay for a project that hasn't even begun happening yet so I just kind of curious about the process of that how that usually works out mam chair uh well what happens is the uh we we get a a cash flow projection for the projects and uh or financial advisor the town Treasurer which I believe she's she's here right now in the meeting I don't know if if she wants to speak to it uh but uh once those are gathered and they tell us that they're going to be needing so much money within the next three months and so much money within the next six months that's when uh we go out to our financial advisers and find out what the best time is for U going out to bond there is a significant cost of uh issuing bonds so you try to group them together when you do and uh that's what we did we did not borrow everything for the Town Hall in fact we still have we have an additional probably 4 and a half million to borrow uh I don't know if we're going to need it or not yet so we haven't borrowed it we're waiting until the project is complete and then we'll probably uh pay those with a temporary note and hold off on bonding those until the spring when their rates probably will be lower because the news or it's that interest rates are going down so we're better off waiting and uh also we received some donations for the project that um we're hoping will pay for most of the project so we won't have to borrow um paa Linares uh the previous Treasurer is here uh if you want her to speak a little more to it yeah if she wants to that was that was super helpful though James I think you know for me I was I was picturing that we borrowed it all up front and that money was just sitting in an account um and that was the only money that was getting the interest but you explained earlier that that other things were in that account as well so that that that's helpful to kind of get the picture of how we ended up with the um one and a half million in interest okay Paul if you wanna if you want to um speak on anything else to add anything to James you're welcome too or just a quick note the um the bonding was done in two rounds I believe we borrow the first portion of it probably when the project started was it two years ago October 2 and we also borrowed in October of 23 and um we've like James said we've got another borrowing to go um and before that you know we um we start off those were the actual bonding prior to that we'll do a what they call a note which is a short-term borrowing and usually you know there could be multiple projects or or Capital things going on that we're borrowing for and then like James said we kind of group them into chunks and um we also have to have everything out of a note into a bond but by um the end of the fiscal year so we try to figure out based on um the the projections we have of one they're going to need the money um for multiple projects we try to pull all that together and we also look at the interest rates and working with our financial advisor trying to to get what's what's suitable for the town and then we put it into a bundle we do a multi-purpose General obligation Bond and we go from there um so like James said we've got another one going for all these projects that we're finishing up or that have finished and um there may be some water things that we'll throw in with that as well to get it a nice package for to make it marketable perfect thank you both that's that's super helpful um there was there were a couple questions I know Mike this was was I'm sorry was somebody else in I just G to bring up the the chat questions uh s Madam chair go ahead so the um uh right now the stabilization uh James the figure is what I know Mike put that in our in our packets um I was just trying to they're sideways for me right now trying to read them Madam 3,215 309 and that's before the million that we're probably gonna add right correct okay the 6.2 plus million in free cash James that includes the 500 that we carried over correct okay and that is the the uh total figure right now and how about the 's reserve what's the bottom line in that right now um I'll have to check on that it's probably like 4 million and change I don't have the exact amount I'll have to look at the receipts for the month of August we still haven't closed August yet I I know we started the year with 4 million2 thank you there was a question that we just wanted to get to get it out there for the people to know and the capital Mike do you have that I think you that was one of your was that one of the documents as well the balance in the capital I think it was 32766 James 327 James correct 327 626 than you any other questions on General budget free cash yes James what is the uh excluding the the construction projects what is the average monthly balance that would carrying um in our general accounts that we're earning interest on uh the last few months is been 60 to 70 million and you're earning how much on that currently around 4% uh I'll let the treasury if she still on answer that but I believe it is above 4% on some of them it depends on which specific account it is so that's growing every month so month after month the free cash is still building it's not free cash until the end of the year whatever we collect between July and June of 2025 will be certified as free cash in sometimes sometime around this time next year and the and the interest earn on stabilization does that stay in the stabilization fund correct that is not part of the interest that made up the free cash and uh going forward I'm going to try to send more reports out to uh the finance committee uh showing maybe revenues and so that uh there is no question that we're not trying to deceive anybody or you know want to be as transparent as possible so I'm going to do what I can to submit you know whether it be quarterly reports showing what we've collected in revenue for the quarter going forward we appreciate that thanks James Paul did you have something well Madam chair it's just the um the Optics were bad this year because of the overrides and all that but really nothing's done different this year than hasn't been done in the past it's just I think the more that we can be in the loop the better I I agree with Paul I think this is an opportunity to get the kind of financial reporting that we need to to see these things I think it's a good step in the right direction James anyone else I know we have people patiently waiting so or there's no other questions they can move on to the next agenda item okay Mike what do we have next is um the um petition article is that next it is and we have the petitioner on so if the petitioner wants to speak this is an uh an article that has gone before the select board um actually the discussion went to the select board before the article was developed and um this is a property on um West Main Street um across from the yell School I'll get to the map that shows it did the select board vote on this um when they uh they came before the select board they um voted that they were in support of uh giving the easement uh for the project the this parcel uh 84 is the area that uh the developer is looking to build and the state won't allow another curb cut and there is a curb cut here at parel 85 that the town owns and uh the petitioner is looking uh for an easement across that parcel to be able to access parcel 84 and uh Mr Rich if I explained that wrong no no that's correct except he's also using he's also requesting use easement to access posle 176 which is adjacent to it those are that the easement or the the hashed area is what the town owns that was uh black up I think by wchr when he owned the property he did receive from the town back in 2008 he received a contract a license agreement to use that hashed area to access the Fel to the right map 22 lot 84 that's to obviate a a a curb cut in the front which would almost interfere with the school's access road to the high school the they have an easement an easan is a non-possessory right to use land and that's that's an easement to the town for anybody that wants to go to that back property anyways so technically it's an extension to the road uh I represent the the Northtown properties that purchase both Lots they're looking to do some kind of uh mixed use maybe commercial with some residential in there I think it the zoning uh allows that he's not quite sure yet depending on how he's going to if he's allowed to use this easement and what he needs is like a Perpetual easement uh Mr rich and Jimmy Brown when they had the hot dog stand they had a licensing agreement was just unique to them when they stopped using it as a hot dog stand or into a puming business then that ex was extinguished what my client wants to do is get the permanent easement to use it to access both Lots technically I think he can do that now because it's an easement granted to all the town's people but he just wants a permanent easement so in the future he could put if he's ever going to sell it we don't have to do this again and ask for another license agreement again he wants to use it for a mixed use uh residential and some kind of commercial use and just he wants to he'll obviously maintain the easement uh and you can't block the easement you can't put a gatee on the easement because they don't own it the town owns it and that's what that's what he's seeking to do that's what we want to go uh for the town we it needs a town vote and we presented it to the town select when they were in favor and now we're just explaining it to the Finn comment if there's any questions I'd gladly answer them for Vol you all right does anyone have any questions Madam chair yes is this is this the lot next uh honeydew uh no it's further down if if if you can look on the map that we have before us if you can see on the bottom there's a cerb cut on the very bottom of West Main Street on the very bottom line You'll see an access that's the high school's access right there it's directly across the street from uh Mr Rich used to have his hot dog stand on that lot if you remember you know where the hot dog stand was it it it moved a few times in my years here that that's that's the last one that's the last place where it ended up Madam Madam chair yes Paul so so attorney Rich um the easan would stay the um access to that back lot of the town every did anything with that back uh property absolutely the town owns it they can do whatever they want with it it does what's the second lot that you're looking for to have access to the one just to the left of that easement that's where that uh Mr Rich had his garage with the Big R on it but you have a curb cut already for that correct well yeah they can access it there also but then you then you have adding more traffic so what he would essent ideally that that we wouldn't be two or three people or two or three accesss coming out right away you just use one access road okay less confusion less tie-ups less headaches thank you thank you anyone else for questions all right do we want to vote on this tonight is that the plan Mike um that would be great okay all right I will take a motion Madame chair I'd make the motion I don't see the original paperwork in front of me to actually read it off let me uh move um so I make a motion Madam chair that we approve a permanent easement to the Northtown Properties LLC it here assessors assigns for the Northtown properties to access and use the town's property located north Town's two Parcels of land located at 77 West Main Street n assessors map 22 lot 176 in zero West Main Street map 22 lot 84 on Route 123 the subject property is 100 50t deep and 41.4 Z wide at the Street 41.9 Ft wide at the norly end and being part of the town's paral delineate on n's map 22 lot 85 article 17 on the warrant article 17 and A1 thank you second I have a motion to Second Kevin yes Gavin yes Paul yes Steve yes face yes Brandon yes Bill yes Paul yes Zach yes honnie yes and I to I'm a yes What's the total Sandy I think all 11 of us are here now 11 okay all right thank you um next um is uh a presentation from the school department on uh schematic design for the Middle School um what article article 12 hi everyone good evening um thank you so much for giving us the opportunity to present this article to you tonight um for many of you may know um the Norton Middle School was built in 1998 um and is actually a beautiful beautiful building one of the issues that we have had since the very beginning is the roof um the norn Middle School roof has always um had some issues uh the way that the the slope of the roof was set up in the original design decisions that were made over time um ultimately we are in a position where it's really time for the roof to be replaced um we submitted our statement of Interest through the Massachusetts school building authority in February of 24 um and the last week of August uh we were informed that we made it through to the next round of approval propes um right now they have 72 projects um that were submitted and 71 that met the minimum criteria uh for us this the roof has to be at least 25 years old we are finally at that threshold um previous to me Dr beta and our previous um business managers had submitted a statement of interest and they have always been turned down just because the roof was not that old even though we were having a lot of issues um with it over time um so we submitted our our bid they came out on um August 26th um Mr lazat our director of facilities and I walked the roof with them um for anyone that's been up there there is a huge amount of patching work that has already been done um last year we had a large huge huge issue with one of our sixth grade classrooms on the third floor that involved um some very inventive tubing and um funnel type Contraptions to make sure that the water went from the roof where it was leaking into the classroom sink um so it is definitely definitely time for this to happen um as of right now the reimbursement rate through the Massachusetts school building authority is a 55.63 reimbursement rate so um if Norton is approved of this process we will have um more than 50% of this project paid for us by the msba right now um we are asking the uh finance committee and of course our towns people to approve an article for the schematic design process as part of the process we need to have the schema design um funds available to us within 90 days of being invited into the program itself we should have an invitation right around Halloween October 30th 31st um so unfortunately the timing is a little bit off in this regard so we are going to be asking you and the town's people to make a decision um before we even know if we are in um or have been accepted into the project um this would just be for the schematic design at this point um we are still waiting for some final numbers for them again because I mentioned the timeline's a little off um and we think it's in the 30 to $50,000 range so as soon as we have that number we will um put it into the document with Mike um Mike's help um we do not anticipate it going over the $50,000 at all um and ultimately if it is at a reasonable place that we could use our facilities revolving account for it we would do that as well um at this time if we go through the schematic design process and we're ready to move forward we would bring a full proposal for the entire project to the Springtown meeting um and so again the timeline for these you have to have the money for the schematic design 90 days after invitation you have to money have the money for the full project one year after the invitation that to participate um I appreciate you entertaining this without a firm number on it and without us actually being invited into um the project yet we do not have the luxury of waiting until the spring town meeting because we won't be outside that window for invitation so I'm happy to answer any questions for you tonight um that you may have Madam chair yes go ahead Paul Dr do you have a um a ballpark based on square footage and stuff or what the overall roof repairs might cost um right now we're having conversations that will likely be in the ballpark of of about 4 million and 50% of that or so would be covered by the state correct two million on the town side correct that's based on the information that we have at this time obviously a lot more information will come to light during that schematic design process um the middle school is a beautifully designed building it's very um interesting in the way that the roof line actually works there's a lot of flat parts of the roof there's rubber roofing there's metal roofing there's the Rotunda um that's covered in Rust uh so there are definitely going to be design components that are going to obviously impact that cost but as of right now that's the number that we're looking at you also have one whole roof covered with solar panels is that cause another angst so the solar panels just get disregarded or they get removed and replaced or so there there are there were solar panels that were on the cafeteria at one point there are still solar panels on the back of the gym roof um they don't work they're not functioning at all um so those would come off and they would just be part of that project um the other thing that it's important for us to realize is that um there's no warranty on the roof um probably and this is goes back to before my time in central office I was still teaching at this time um there were we had a really bad winter and there were these um basically like spikes yes thank you um as much as my family owns a hardware store that's not my background so I'm not really sure on the language um and when they drilled those into the roof that avoided the warranty so um we haven't been able to really get any repairs done on this um through the warranty in in a number of years it's all been out of pocket Madam chair yes go ahead Mike um Jen how how confident you are are you that 50,000 will be enough um we're pretty confident that um based on the um comparables that we've seen so far um things are roughly in that 30 to 50 range based on the size of our roof compared to other projects um we're hopeful that it may come in a little bit under that so we could use 50,000 of free cash and if it does come under then that money would go back to the general fund yep absolutely I think M I think the language on the warrant actually talks about um for schematic designed and construction um that's the way that the msba recommends that we do the language and that was our conversation with you as well yeah so good if there's a little bit left over we can send it back to the general fund could go towards the project itself mam chair yes go ahead Zack uh couple questions um why isn't this being put through Capital instead of an article it's my first one um so the way that this the process works for the msba is the town has to approve both the schematic design phase as well as the full project Pro um so this is the way that we've done these projects in the past is through um a town meeting warrant instead of bringing it through the capital project um so that way the town's people have a good understanding of projects that are kind of on the radar um and we need affirmative votes for both um aspects of the pro of the process and and I think Zach this is to determine um what needs to be done in the cost and that would go to Capital when when we the next phase for the construction um would go to Capital okay and my my second question Madam chair is is not to put Dr O'Neal on the spot but uh we didn't let her chime in at all on the uh free cast situation I don't know if she wants to do that that try if she wants to defer I know there's a school committee meeting later the week that's fine but if she wishes to I I hope you would give her the opportunity well that danger to being put on the spot but I'll I'll defer to um Madam chair here yeah I was just going to say if if anybody has any more questions on the roof can we take that first and then we can go because I know you did have um one request for a budget supplement as well in the town meeting so if we can take any questions on the roof if not then we can move on CH yes Steve just one question going forward not not exactly about the roof but from a process perspective I I heard you say that somebody made a decision to drive Nails in the roof it avoided a warranty I'm just curious on a go forward Mike who in the town has oversight to make sure those kind of things don't happen again if we have something that's fully warranteed um well anything on a school building would be uh the superintendent's responsibility that is correct and uh you know um Steve we just get to um own the decisions of those that came before us so um I'm sure whoever was you know in that position or doing this work was looking for a solution and in retrospect it's always easy to be the Monday Morning Quarterback no no and I'm not looking to put I'm just I'm looking for a go forward so these kind of things don't happen again I would think some yeah expertise review Etc will be done before things like that happen so not looking at this particular moment so if that it appears that I'm do I apologize no no not at all I just I've asked the same question myself anything else on the roof Madam chair if I may um just a quick question and this could just be because I'm new to fincom uh where would the uh the money come from would it have to be an override or would it come from Capital um when it comes to if um decision is made to do the uh roof [Music] replacement when when uh that moves forward um it wouldn't be override or debt exclusion um what we but we would more than likely look at borrowing if we don't have the funds available to pay for it outright usually we'd borrow for a project thank you madam chair yes to Dr O'Neal I know that the um snow Cliffs were on that front um main slope of the building I thought that was the only place they did the uh the gluing down which ate away at the roof all the roofs got voided because of that one section being voided or is it already 2 unfortunately because because my and again this is my understanding of kind of the way that things have transpired and um of course you know just this year and last year the the warranty would have been voided regardless is 25 years old um my understanding was that any [Music] um adjustments or alternates to to the original roof void the warranty as a whole than thank you happy help anyone else on the roof okay Jen if you wanted to to speak to I think you said 160,000 is what you were looking for I don't know if that's changed at all um so um uh we have not had the opportunity to meet as a full committee um are we actually have a meeting this coming Wednesday the 25th and we will be having some um conversation just about that supplement um the original request is 160,000 I believe it's 802 off the top of my head um and that is the additional Chapter 70 money that was allocated for per pupil expenditures uh through the governor's budget this year so originally we were anticipating only getting $30 per student um they have actually upped that through the budget through to 107 excuse me $104 per student student uh so we were requesting that additional $74 per student um I think that one of my biggest concerns looking at um the free cash situation is just um we're in a difficult position as a school system we can't really go back and rehire um the staff that was laid off in in most cases um in some cases we have staff that were previously serving in roles for example Middle School World Language and are now teaching in other position positions in the district um so it would be really disruptive to be pulling people out of classes that they're teaching and and moving them to other places or backfilling um some roles would be easy to find a long-term substitute for um so the I don't want to speak for the school committee and I know Nick and Justine are both on as well um but we are looking at ways that potentially we could ease the burden of some of these layoffs um through temporary positions whether it's building based substitutes or helping with those teacher leaders statens um but I do have concerns about rehiring people at this point in the game especially knowing that this potentially is is a one-time deal so um I appreciate the work of the finance committee I appreciate the work of Mike and James and their team um I know it's a difficult job um but I appreciate Zach you giving me the opportunity and you know I'm used to having myself put on the spot so it's part of the gig and can you go through I know you talked about it at the um at your school committee meeting what the what the 160 U what the school committee discussed spending that on absolutely um and I apologize my husband and my son are coming in the door from football practice and my dogs are going crazy and it's just a normal Monday night at the normal Monday night sounds like it does so um I apologize so um we are looking at that 160 to support um a few different things here um number one is um homeless transportation that is one of our um biggest challenges each year is kind of figuring out where students um that are experiencing homelessness are living and what Our obligation is to transport them um whether they're in Norton or another Community um we have obligations to make sure that they are getting to school each day um additionally we as always have um special education situations that come up every year um and we are already seeing that as part of um our challenges for this school year so be putting money towards um that as well um and I've also spoken with our school committee on a couple other issues um I've talked about uh some of the savings that we had as a school community in um the number of resignations and retirements that we had over the summer being able in most cases to hire someone at a lower pay rate um we were able to bring um two of our par professionals back we discussed the nurse the last time um and then we also were able to um upgrade our security for our online network with some of those savings as well so we appreciate the committee's support with the supplemental about chair yes go ahead did we actually Vote or we ar voting tonight on the um um schematic money for the schools on the the roof yeah I no we have not yet so yeah I was just GNA let Jen I don't know we want to do that before we move on to uh other articles other items we can do you want to make a motion for the roof I do that we make a motion for um up to $50,000 for the schematic design process but the Middle School Ro second motion a second Uh Kevin yes Gavin yes Paul yes Steve yes Grace yes Brandon yes B yes Paul yes Zach yes Bonnie yes and I yes thank you thank you all very much I didn't mean to throw for curve there Madam chair but I just figured we' WRA move on to the next stuff um yes that's fair I would have forgotten about it probably um Zach did you have any other questions um did that answer the the your questions uh yes so now I don't think they'd have a school committee uh meeting later in the week and I'll be watching uh the only other thing I would ask uh Dr O'Neal is this a project that you would like to have complete uh summer of 25 is that your best case scenario for the roof yes yes I mean the sooner we could get that roof done the better off we would all be um it definitely is um a day-to-day concern in the cafeteria at lunch on you know thinking about this past Saturday one of those brainy days um we're moving cafeteria tables around we're have trash barrels out there um some of the classrooms have some significant um drainage issues uh so we are absolutely on a the sooner the better um would be perfect for us so that it a lot will depend on um once we have the invitation from the msba they set us up with um the OPM how quickly are we matched with somebody and how quickly can we get this ball rolling thank you as always thank you madam chair go ahead Bill sorry thank you Paul um Dr NE one other question in regards to the whole roof project with with all the water intrusion is there any issues in in the walls and the brick and all that kind of stuff that we need to be worried about in the future great question bill um we have actually made some internal um changes over time because of some of the the drainage issues that we've had um so I'm going to go off the top of my head since I've been in central office some of the things that we've done um the guidance Suite which is on the first floor where all of our guidance counselors are um that was originally um an area that had mold because of drainage issues um a lot of that all that mold was remediated all the carpets were ripped out over time um and we reinstalled a um lenium tip um that was one thing that was done um if you've walked down that main um hallway that leads towards the units um and the stairs to the library there was a lot big leak in there all of that flooring has been replaced over time um and then there has been um painting that has taken place one of the things that um I think we may need to look at at some point um is some repointing of the brick along the front of the building specifically the doorway where our students come in off the buses uh for those of you who have been to a school committee meeting it's also the door we go in there that leads you directly up the stairs to the library um there is a big leak right at um the front of that um window area and it has been kind of dripping down the inside of the wall if you're in that area and you look up you can see a huge amount of plaster damage um so there probably is some repointing that will need to be done on the at the front of that building over time as well go thank you thanks Madam chair go ahead Paul so Dr O'Neal the um the 16,826 [Music] direction that that would be part of the budget supplement article okay and I um we are discussing it on Wednesday night as part of our um regular school committee um and I had um talked with Mike and said if we wanted to change that um he would give us until Friday to be able to change that on his end so um that's really up to you okay and um and I did notice from the disc discussion last week that um you had some negative line items throughout the budget where youve deficit spent is that just part of your shuffling in the deck and you're figuring out internally without any other other needs yes definitely um the bottom line does not has not changed um a lot of those come from Staffing uh changes that we may not anticipate for example um a staff member decides to take an extended leave of absence um and we were planning on paying them the way through June but they left in March um we had a um longtime educator retire in March this past year where we had budgeted to pay her through the end of the school year so those go into lines such as substitutes or um facilities or other things that that may need to um have a little bit more support throughout the course of the year uh just like the you know snow account and the um overtime for our police and fire substitutes is something that is really really challenging for us to figure out and anticipate um so it's often that's sometimes where those things go as well thank you yeah and I I know um Steve had some great questions about that last week it's it's a little bit of robbing Peter Peter to pay paal and knowing that at the end of the day it it's going to work itself out um I just wanted to mention the turn backs as well I know there was a question about um the school department turning back um I think it was 282,000 that's part of our agreement with the town as part of the train project so those are Savings in utility costs that we are seeing because of um the project that was done and um we turn that back and that payment is is to go towards the um payment of the train project so if we didn't have those utility savings we we really wouldn't have turned anything back and I remember we had that conversation at a a big meeting joint meeting y that that was the agreement to try to offset some of those bills that were coming due yes and we like it when we're able to give you back almost $300,000 because we know it's an expensive project and um you know every little bit helps so thank you any other questions for Dr all right thank you so much for coming tonight and uh we'll you know keep in touch as as to what you vote on on Wednesday that's great thanks have a great night um the next discussion Point um was for the demolition of the current Town Hall I was on the building committee meeting before y meeting but they I had to leave they were still still going forward um I don't have a figure yet so I want to hold off on this until uh I have a figure from them on uh what what the cost is for the demolition oh sorry we still anticipating that the the extra funds for the projects when they they're pulled together will cover the cost of that demolition or will it need to be come from free cash as well um I don't anticipate and have to come from free cash um they're going over all the number MERS now on the town hall and the senior center to see um what extra they'll need we may need some um but there's I think close to 100,000 left in various articles throughout this long process um different studies that were done um so we look at using some of that and then it all depends what they uh have for a final figure whether we need more but hope they're still under the total for the projects any other questions on that I know to a tbling it but Madam chair yes still wasn't it said earlier today Mike that there's like four million left in those projects uh four M four million left to borrow okay thank you yeah mam chair yes sir so 4 million left to borrow would max out the debt exclusion um I don't I'm not sure Zach I'll to be honest with you okay and and we're definitely going to be within the range um and when they're talking about uh tearing down costs that's going to I assume that means putting up a brick wall to make that Building look like a building repaving a lot all the underground work that's going to need to be done Soup To Nuts so it's a a finished complex correct yeah it' be um rebuilding that wall for the fire station Madam shair yes James the uh there was a donation that we received recently um of a million five around there for the projects that will reduce the uh the debt exclusion by that amount and also you may recall at the beginning of of the project when we had town meeting there was over 700,000 from free cash that was used to reduce the uh the debt exclusion so we will not be borrowing the total authorized it will be a little less Madam chair yes B why why would we do that if I if there's money in the if if there was an approved budget X number of years ago why why wouldn't we maximize that approved budget to finish the project before we go out for other sources to finish it um I'm a little confused in that concept I I think um what the donation that came the whole intent always was to use that to reduce the amount of borrowing to uh less than the impact on the taxpayers of the projects I think from being at the the PBC meetings they they they've been pretty um a lot of lot of the members have been pretty feeling pretty strongly about the fact that that was the intent that they had said any money that we could raise through donations would be used to reduce the debt um and it does sound like that they'll have enough money for that we W have to go into other pieces for the for the demolition um so I think again once we get that quote we'll know that better but that would be U that would be the hope and the goal I think is to not have to use anything outside of that those funds Adam CH yes sir so uh Mike or James we got our tax bills the first two tax bills are estimates um for the year and then we get actual tax bills the second third and fourth quarter of the year when will we see the final impact to the resident tax bill for all the borrowing that's being done for these project and say okay these buildings are done this is your final tax bill for the at least the you know excluding the 2 and a half% that we go up every year is that going to be this year are we going to see that in the third and fourth quarter mam share yes James we're planning if we have to borrow an additional amount it would probably be April of 2025 which uh that would show up on your following Year's uh tax bill but you have already seen most most of the the impact shouldn't be going up a lot so everything except the the final $4 million I gu has or will hit the tax bill the third and fourth quarter seeing the first half of the year's an estimate the the final $4 million that authorized hasn't been borrowed yet if we borrow that money in April the principal and interest the first principal and interest payment on those won't be due until fiscal year 26 meaning it will be on your fiscal year 26 tax bill okay so the tax bills we're going to get this year in the third and fourth quarter I assume you borrowed money this year at some point when's the last time we borrowed we borrowed last time in October of 2023 okay so that's been all accounted for that your tax bills that you received uh for fiscal year 24 your final one in um December January of 24 included the interest portion of that borrowing your next bill is going to include the principal and the interest so it's going to go up uh when you get the tax bill in I don't know if it goes out late J late December around Christmas time it's your Christmas gift thank you very much so fin once you once you see the next increase which is going to be on your tax bill coming up on your actual ta tax bill coming up in uh late December early January that's going to be the last of the significant increases due to the that exclusion because what we have left to borrow is just to clean up once the project is completed and we're hoping that uh we don't have to borrow the full $4 million okay thank you Mike what's what's next um uh same with the other the lake and pond management I I want to hold off till next week on that we have one thing we're checking on that and then we'll come back next week with that article and that's it for tonight can I ask a question I forgot to ask earlier do you know if we have the separation expenses estimate yet I know that was you said last meeting might be a kind of a bigger number the last I do have some maybe a second um right now the last um I had was we're looking at 28,000 $138 thank you okay any other questions from Mike mam chair yes SEC mik that includes all the current uh I you some retirements of the fire department you have some retirements and promotions on the police department that's all inclusive in this fall number or is it going to be more in the spring um I would hope that this would be it um i' have to check on the police make sure that's the final number uh we have uh police um border of health and we're checking on fire we may have one more on fire and then what about your town clerk who's retiring um yep we need that too Madam chair if I may just a stack in here before Mike goes I know you you you haven't given us your recommendations yet but um seeing that we do have extra free cash you know it's for I guess for the committee to think about including the town manager is you know should we be looking if we're not going to if we're not going to bring back positions to putting a larger number in stabilization something like million dollar you know to to try to cushion the blow if we have more significant issues coming forth in uh future years I guess it's something for uh everybody to ponder yeah I think Zach that's you know great I'm hoping the next meeting we can have a good conversation after the select board's weit in um on what they what their priorities are um and then we can all weigh in so just you know for just to make it clear for anyone watching our meetings um which we seem to be a little more popular these days is I just want to make make clear we have not made any decisions on any of that spending at this point in time so that's you know that's all up for discussion and I hope at the next meeting we can um have a good discussion on that Madam chair I would also think with the um idea of the school project coming up too for the roof B that maybe we increase what we put into Capital potentially good suggestions yeah anyone have anything else for Mike and Mike we're good for a meeting in person next Sunday I'm so excited all right all right that sounds great so Madam chair yes sir for us uh residents and whatnot who cruise by the town hall but have never kind of gone closer wedia Park and where's the meeting going to be um well the meeting will probably be in the wonet conference room and parking is right now on the side of the building because the front parking lot is still occupied by all the construction vehicles side of the building like behind the Old Town Hall fire exactly yep to the left side of the new building gotta check it out tomorrow Wednesday Peter it what is it Wednesday oh wait one more day Peter we don't have an elevator yet so Wednesday Mike is the Rundy conference room not available no it's it's occupied okay got it Madam Shar is there an official ribbon cutting or anything going on with that there there will be once everything's all settled it it will uh more than likely for the town hall it will be on a Thursday off night when the select board's not meeting oh and Mike there was a request can we go back to getting um paper packets um now that we're back in person um so that those of us maybe those who don't have their all the computer stuff in front of them can get the paper packets sure let me know uh if you need 11 or some of you uh are thinking about the environment in our CL for paper all right anyone else from anything for Mike all right thanks Mike good night day happy birthday CH Paul well birthday thank you Peter thank you mayor happy if no one has anything else I will take a motion to adjourn so mov second K yes Gavin yes Paula yes Steve yes Grace yes Brandon yes Bill yes Paul yes back ah yes Bonnie yes happy birthday Paul yes happy birthday Paul all right we'll see you week in person take care