all right well Mark hi I'm Paul I'm the old new new old planning director hey Paul nice to finally meet you in person same here um so dropping right in the middle of this whole process but well we're not actually at the middle yet so you're in luck I've read I've read all the documents including for tonight so I'm very happy happy great it's very noticeable Improvement well I'm I'm tempted to say that after the meeting tonight I'm going to put the first draft together um Can somebody let me share you should be able to at the bottom Mark okay can you see that yeah great okay so a confession when I read the site plan review section for the first time the thing that kind of bowled me over or at least temporarily was that there were a lot of different performance standards in there um but as it turns out most of the performance standards were for a specific District I think it was the vcd district or something like that so what looked like it was a solid8 to 10 pages of performance standards was really a solid six pages of performance standards for that district and very little with regard to the rest of town so that's a more recent one that we had a consultant help with so that's the reason so I think what I'm going to do is take those ones specific to that district and I'm going to put it in the special district regulations along with flood plane and water resource and anything else that's an overlay District because it is kind of a standalone set of rules and then that turned my attention back to what I usually do which is at least talk to you about whether or not you want to take an approach to some more uh broader-based performance standards and that's what I've got up on the screen right now so the idea is that if somebody is applying for a special permit or a site plan approval for what is basically called a non-residential or multifam use um defined there in 632 as U anything which is uh non-residential or six or more dwelling units then the planning board uh or this let's put it this way the special permit granting Authority would Implement these standards uh if there's no special permit granting Authority because it doesn't require a special permit the planning board would do it for uses available as bright and before we get to the punchline at the end I'll just take you there directly these are wable so you can buy special permit sayfe you don't need to do this but they're not guidelines they're standards which are very different guidelines have no force and effective law standards do the thinking is that every body's bylaw has standards for parking signs sometimes you see Landscaping sometimes you see uh noise and lights those are probably the most common ones and when you go to make a special permit or a site plan approval decision there they are you either comply or you don't or you get a waiver if the bylaw allows for that and if you've only got two of those things and five of them are important on making a decision for granting a special perimeter site plan approval then what what you're left with usually in site plan approval is minimize this and maximize that which is great but it's not objective it's subjective minimize uh you know disruption of vegetated areas don't don't clearcut more than you need to that kind of thing this this this is an attempt to objectify these these kinds of standards again without necessar requiring you to adhere to them you know religiously so I I just did this the other night with um Wakefield and the first thing I heard was from a member of the zba who said you know do we really have to do this I said well let's just walk through it first and see if it really turns out to be as Draconian as the board discussed without me or whether or not it just makes a lot of common sense and that's why always advise boards rectifying a bylaw to treat this as a sushi menu you don't have to buy everything you know just cut it back if that's what you think is the way to approach it so there's some exemptions in 633 sorry Mark can we go back to 632 yeah with regards to the definition um I wanted to just check with the panel here so the non-residential or multif family use she'll mean um any use in a non-residential use or a multif family dwelling or mixed use structure with six or more dwelling units and I'm wondering so for example we just reviewed a dentist office going on West Main Street that has dentist office below and only four units above and I feel like that's something I would want to see as site plan for okay um you could see a site plan the question is whether or not it would be subject to these standards right so I'm thinking you know mixed use implies that there is some non-residential and the standards apply to non-residential so I'm kind of thinking uh you know maybe we edit it you know mixed use structure with greater than 5,000 squ fet of floor space as opposed to a specific number of units could I speak to that um I I think under our tax code I think anything with more than four units is a commercial Enterprise if is that correct well it's it would be classified as residential for purposes of zoning regulation not as commercial so that Mark this is Nick The Building Commissioner I was just going to chime in two quick from from a building code standpoint anything larger than two units is commercial but from a zoning standpoint like Mark just said residential is residential I I would um classify for example a long-term care facility AKA a nursing home as residential not as a business same thing would be true of an assisted living facility this is where people live and it's certainly a dwelling for purposes of the federal fair Housing Act amendments and the Ada so so what would you suggest 5,000 GFA I I think I would be more comfortable you know anything smaller than that is probably going to be you know a decent yeah you know it could be a single family house with 5,000 square fet um so a mixed use with 5,000 square feet is going to have probably you know some sort of commercial or office space at the bottom and maybe one or two apartments upstairs and I'm fine not seeing anything on that I think anything bigger than that maybe but I'll defer to the board or the the panel let me just explain that any non-residential use is born of my local experience with the dumbest decision my planning board ever made here with a I think it's a 1200t Starbucks on the exact wrong Corner near a train crossing with four parking spaces in the lot and no left turn out it's just a mess it's been a mess for 15 years and I've seen similar examples of very small but very intense uses that escape site plan approval or performance standards of any sort so yeah I I had originally struck with six or more dwelling units and just said any mixed use structure and then started thinking about it and saying okay well you know if there was a I'm thinking of um one of the properties that we looked on West Maine where there was a spa downstairs and an apartment building upstairs you know and it's in a what used to be a single family house I just I guess um looking at it you know from a a you know another perspective too is you know in certain areas of town if we're trying to encourage more development are there opportunities to you know use a process that's in you know if it's the right type of project in the right place uh can we should we be considering that as well um because you know we we we apply special permits to an awful lot of uses here and are there I mean I know we're not changing that but I I would just put that out there that you know that number that we put in there could really matter you know because if we're if it's triggering a site plan versus a special permit it's a very different decision-making process well this wouldn't make that judgment this would just apply uh accordingly yeah to the through the correct Authority either the spga or the site plan review Authority okay so I you know why don't we think about that I'm GNA flag that and so when I re I put this back together I'll just put a comment in the right margin so that everybody can revisit it but but think about what standard you would want to come up with if you don't like this one um the exemptions are pretty straightforward you you don't want to have emergency responses judging judged by the noise standards U municipalities always exempt themselves and events are one-of a kind Affairs so I'm down to go ahead sorry we have a we have a site where they do rodeos uh within they're in a residential area and does anybody know how late the rodeo goes is it like a business or is it I I live nearby and I hear them um they they go fairly late in the night but it's never disrupted me like after midnight or anything like that okay I just didn't I I didn't know if we wanted to align that with what we usually permit them for operating hours I think they generally fall within that period that's on this sheet already and uh it's certainly no worse than what I hear from Great Woods not Cowboy Bob is it I don't know who that is this town of dunable called me up once they had an agricultural operation that had run a muck and on Saturdays they had Cowboy Bob giving Six Gun demonstrations I was like uh that's not really agriculture is it so I just wondered if he migrated South that's all all right lighting so the standard here is in the first paragraph the general standard so we want to reduce light pollution trespass and glare basically by requiring for bigger projects a photometric plan uh that show that there's not going to be any such thing and then depends on how serious you want to get about International dark sky standard compliance but you can that's in the number two um you know again if if they can't do it you can always grant them a waiver but it's a good thing to shoot for I was at a conference in University of Denver maybe 20 years ago and the speaker held up a candy bar and he said for 65% of Americans This is the Milky Way that was 20 years ago yeah mark on number three under light intensity where it says LED lighting is preferred yep um with the panel's agreement I'd like to put in a um qualifying that it says it's of a color temperature appropriate for the Youth LED lighting can be really really really bright I'm making U Notes on a hard copy that's in my lap so okay I got it great Paul should we um should we maybe have a brief discussion on the amendment that may be before the board soon and a town meeting maybe yeah I'm sorry town meeting the petitioned article yeah yeah and get ahead of it at this point stage or you think leave it alone we've reviewed the petitioned article and voted not to endorse it okay I wasn't aware of that Tim sorry about that I should have told you sorry no it's um their recommendation was not well conceived okay I can I I can appreciate that decision by the board from my side so thank you um but yes I would be I know we do have a lighting bylaw I think it's an 11 in our current bylaws Which exempts single family dwelling so when we get to that point mark if you can note if you have uh residential specific lighting guidelines in terms of a standard lighting bylaw it'd be interesting to look at those okay because our existing bylaw basically says if you're a one or two family property there are no restrictions um which is good because it means you can put a spotlight in front of your garage without talking to anybody but it also doesn't allow any enforcement on the other side of it if somebody has five spotlights pointed to their neighbor's bedroom window all right I'm making a note of that too um I'll go back and look at section 11 I hadn't looked at it in a while uh the rest of it strikes me as you know more or less Common Sense search lights hello um outdoor Signs IND and indoor lighting being projected outside I just recently had a trial in on a Watertown R&D 85,000 Square ft the allegation was that it would you know basically light up like a lantern at night I was defending the the R&D facility and there was a clause that we had the board put in that if the lighting was bothersome they we would put in on automatic Shades that shut down um you know relatively early in the evening and I would imagine that that would be the kind of condition that you would anticipate here for something that's going to have two or three shifts operate at night and you don't want it to bother people anything else here catch your attention um Mark just on the search lights I realize if we're going through a site planner special permit that the planning board or spga could issue conditions regarding this but um I guess I mean obviously if if there's just typical events that the select board um you know issues day permits for and I guess they they would still have their right I mean obviously they would still have their right to um so I guess how how would that work if you had the planning board issues the determination on the uh condition on the the search lights do towns typically when people when you know events are H are had or when they have search lights at let's say car dealerships is that typically approved by the by the select board for the actual event itself it depends on how the lighting bylaw is written some select boards May retain jurisdiction over it but otherwise it's Whoever has been given the permitting Authority by the town meeting okay so I I would think it would fall more to the planning board okay great and the police department yeah so on um illuminated surfaces you basically want these things pointed down and I think that kind of goes along with hours of operation I just permitted a new McGovern Subaru dealership and you know we're going to basically have very little lighting at night just just enough for security and safety and we had to prepare an uh an an andm plan for the lights that the board approved as a condition of the permit and they're a bunch of Neighbors in an old condo development so it was one of the major issues right I'm going over to noise my favorite topic just had a trial in which the uh noise standards came into play the the state limitation is 10 DBA above ambient in number one below meaning that we are well acquainted I'm sure I I think I remember a case that was reported in the land Court was that that was would have been the cranberry bog uh solar facility this was an issue with that yes I was I think one of our first meetings I was told that solar was a a nasty thing we're going to try to avoid for as long as we could but I don't think we're atast car it out from say it again Le carve it out well we're not going to be able to avoid it forever oh yeah I know if we can separate it from the larger recodification that'll save us some drama okay well do you have a problem with with just mentioning to people that the 10 310 CMR 7.10 is coin of the realm and whatever it applies to it applies to if it doesn't apply it doesn't apply so for example I don't believe backup beepers are part of 310 CMR 7.10 because it's uh it's it's it's transient this is more directed towards things like hbac equipment MH [Music] um generators things that have a more permanent although truck idling is is generally a part of this measurement as well well that's what kind of where we would want truck idling included if we wanted to yeah especially with Southwestern because and I know 10B DBA is the state standard but uh just even a small car running is greater than that um well so I was trying to determine if this was are these the standards once it's built or is it also during the construction period because that's unrealistic to expect less than 10 DBA during construction no it's it's actually skipping the construction period it's in the permitting state when you're projecting the sounds that are going to occur in the operating stage and then it is enforceable in the operating stage but generally when you when you say operating meaning once built yes right got it thank you long ago I had a client in um Auburn on the Oxford Town Line who got the bright idea of putting an outdoor Cafe behind his restaurant and he was not trying to hurt anybody he had actually a pretty good business going had I remember he had Jay Guiles a couple of times three dog night and by a cork of nature it bothered some people in Auburn up a hill Hill Street and um we had a 4-day trial a jury trial and they said it was not a nuisance shortly after that D cracked down told him he had to enclose it which did him a favor because instead of having summer events he had a wedding venue all of a sudden and it was pretty soundproof once he enclosed it but they did move like a glacier but they did come in and enforce so is it realistic to expect a multifam an apartment building to maintain less than 10 DBA considering a car runs at 60 to 80 DBA well it's going to be governed by this the standards of 310 CMR 7.10 so okay lawn mowers leaf blowers people having loud birthday parties none of that counts okay and the you know the thinking of acoustical Engineers on all of this is that it do sound doesn't become perceptible until barely perceptible at 3 DBA above ambient perceptable at five but not bothersome until it really reaches close to 10 if if I was defending a new facility and I the best my acoustical engineer was going to say is it would be nine in the dead and at the most sensitive receptor I wouldn't like my chances with the judge because Nine's too close to 10 but I've just had a trial where the the testimony was five at one location in the dead of night for a very short period of time like uh literally one 100th of the time measured by or projected by this the acoustical engineer I don't think that the judge is going to have a problem with that and these kinds of things um are becoming more um important in the permiting process lights and noise are right behind parking loading and and and signage so Mark um you know based on our experiences here too um and I'm sure other places when we talk about 10 DBA above ambient does this now normally when we get an application in we're not requiring them to do a sound study I guess the question is is what's the Baseline for ambient how do we determine that I think it's well within your reach to use 53g to engage an acoustical engineer I don't think I I I wouldn't do it for a you know Small Potatoes sort of addition to the community but I was just down the road from you recently in Berkeley when um gfo was Marcus Partners was proposing two warehouses on myrix with access directly on 140 and we had acoustical Engineers testify for the applicant and we had another acoustical engineer uh the guy I normally use Chris M uh testify as a peer reviewer it's very helpful and it takes away some of the fear too because people think it's just going to be like a you know a huge bother a lot of noise um there are things you can do to mitigate there are things you can't do to mitigate but the acoustical Engineers do this all day every day and there's some damn good ones out there in Massachusetts yeah a place I could see us potentially doing that is I saw there's a application for a warehouse going on South Worcester couple of parcels over from Whole Market foods and whole Market Foods is constantly being brought up to select board for no complaint trucks running all night yeah and how big a warehouse I don't know six figures square feet I think yeah well that's you know that's a prime candidate to be regulated for noise control and it AB buts a res so that one little stretch is zoned industrial but right across the street is residential right behind its residential the sound is measured at the nearest occupied property line so it's that that's the standard okay um and I think a lot of the Mickey Mouse stuff gets eliminated because 310 CMR 7.10 does not apply universally to any noise I mean if you if you took Peak reads on this on a sound meter You' we'd have no Cardinals right uh the last three things there under hours of operation more or less attempt to regulate specific types of equipment and I know in my town we just I think we've banned gasoline powered leaf blowers in a couple of years and until then somebody's squawking still and wants to license them so that people have a disincentive to use them but you know basically loading unloading between 6 p.m. and 8:00 a.m. um you can't do it operating or permitting tools equipment I'm still seeing page one on the um 632 on the screen is that everybody oh I'm sorry I didn't move it down thank you long is not just me I'm actually not even seeing the uh I'm looking at it I have mine up but for some reason it's not showing up as a shared screen oh probably my computer there's the noise hours of operations thing I was just talking about so you know just common sense turn it off if you're doing uh exterior work for drilling or demo um between 6 pm and 8 A.M on weekdays or Saturday and then the last one construction devices jackhammers Etc between 8 AM and 6: PM um move up to best management practices if it can be feasible just to make my endear myself would conquered I'm going to add gas leaf blowers there all right we're treating this like the budget if you want to hold yell it out um site development and operational standards this is mostly to do with preparing the site for construction you know just how far can you go I recall years ago in Mansfield when I lived there somebody cleared the lot at the corner of 140 and what's the crossroad they the main Crossroad in the center of town is that I can't remember but it was they they they cleared it off cut every tree fenced it you know by or lease obviously but it just leeched sediment out onto the road and that was a prominent location in town so I've always thought since that experience that you don't just want to give somebody a chainsaw until him to go to work Mark in 636 the very last sentence it says operations at develop site shall meet standards 13 through 18 we stop at 14 so I think what may have happened is you kept our number what is 13 and 14 and then I Whitted it back so that's what happened okay I was wondering maybe we're I was wondering if maybe we were missing six standards that you meant to add to the end of that no see the cross outs there I um I I just forgot to go back and change the numbering there okay so I did preserve some of your standards if I thought that they covered ground not in my template or um you know were worth saving so minimize the obstruction of scen ifuse from publicly accessible location is not yellow because it was in your existing text um minimize tree I just this is redundant it's said somewhere else and then these two things here toward the end or yeah were not covered in this section so I added them in there there was only one thing that I noticed that we asked for elimination or minimization of that I don't see reference here and that was soil erosion and sedimentation and we also require a uh erosion and sediment control plan prior to just prior to and during construction and so I didn't know if that was intentionally left out if it's no longer um I think it's important but I'll leave it to the board I'm just trying to remember if I put it somewhere else I did look I don't I don't think I would have I did a yeah I did a search for the for erosion Andor sedimentation so my with the panels agreen I would put it in number one specifically because that is for outside of the development footprint and then add it to 4B which is within the footprint so let me go back up and find where you're talking about here okay um that just seem to be the most logical to me but I I'm I will defer to other people if they think it is better left or better as a its own item or some put somewhere else say it again so I've got good notes sure um so we had within our standard um uh will eliminate or minimize soil erosion and sedimentation by requiring an erosion and sedimentation control plan prior prior to and during construction and where do you think I should put that so my first thought was I think it should go within number one land disturbance because that is the area outside the footprint of the development and then include it I I know it's redundant but I think it should probably also go in 4B within the site design because that would be captured within so we would eliminate and minimize soil erosion and sedimentation both in the site specifically or um and it won't affect it immediately on the outskirts of the site so just repeat the same language there yes please and thank you okay thank you again if people feel differently hearing no objection uh how about five six Etc no comments on those and then you can see on the next page that I have retained your um control of waste and storm water management provisions I did want to point out on number 11 we actually do not allow irrigation except if it's on a private well how about if I just switch that sentence around to an affirmative statement of that yeah shall require on number 14 should we make a reference to this to the storm water management bylaw there is a de Center reference there in the paragraph oh um back to 11 Mark I if if we're going to re if we only allow it by private irrigation by private well should we just eliminate the consultation with the water department and have it be a consult with the Board of Health yeah good call should yeah should say after consultation with the Board of Health got it so says the so says the health agent okay I got it he's a figment of your imagination Paul he's in my head all right I'm moving on to pedestrian and vehicular access I saw you had some standards here that I thought were a little bit aggressive especially on level of service but I I'll hold off until we get there so in in some ways what you're you're you're kind of trying to recreate here is a Highway access permit but you can only do it on local roads because do doesn't share jurisdiction on state highways but what you're gunning for here is whatever they do on a state highway you can do on a local Road I actually did that Lincoln Lincoln called me up many years ago and they said we got traffic problems and I said why and they said well it's mostly our nonprofit um art locations and and um you know other other nonprofit activities and they're not on state highways they're all on local roads so essentially what Lincoln did was recreate the highway access permit structure where a change of use over a certain that will generate over a certain number of trips makes you apply you have to show your curb cut you have to you know indicate um the the the width of the uh access and egress you have to mitigate problems that you've created and it seems to have slow things down I'm not I'm not saying go that far I'm I'm just saying you know come up with some basic basic standards for example for Access um prioritized access would be via common driveway via an existing side street via cesac or Loop Road you don't want to necessarily access things by roadways abing residential districts and if it's got Frontage on more than one street pick the one that's going to cause the least impact that last sentence is yours already Ingress an erress Point shall be kept to a minimum uh not more than one driveway per lot is allowed in the Village Center core District uh that's existing right but same thing goes here the last sentence is yours already um but adequate driveways additional driveways are conditional driveway should afford sight distance both stopping and intersection sight distance and if you got to clean it up you got to clean it up sometimes in order to have sight distance you've got to go on to neighboring properties to cut uh to get you know the adequate linear distance curb Cuts 20 feet for residential 30 feet for commercial um again you are not going to control where it is on a state highway but you can always make a recommendation to the regional office interior circulation most of that paragraph is your existing rags this is the transportation plan approval uh for anything in excess of 25,000 gross square feet you're going to have uh submitt of a standard tias and that's to mass do standards now Mark Mark sorry within 5B before you scroll down 5 C B is in I'm sorry B is in boy yeah uh detailing the accepted traffic impacts should that be expected y okay thanks sure so I assume that you're getting these now when you have something major happening how routinely do you have transportation Engineers appear in front of you and or peer review with your own generally anything that gets big enough to raise concerns even though sometimes we can tell that because we've looked at 20 of them that putting that putting something on a major State Highway isn't going to have a noticeable impact but the size of the project kind of makes us more yeah I mean people are watching and they want to know that you've at least done your due diligence so that they can go you know they can go home from the public hearing thinking that somebody's looking out for their better interests sometimes it's Overkill to do a full blown tias I the the level of service component of a tias is I mean it's useful information but sometimes it's not the most critical information especially in an area where there's not much delay so most of the time I if if I'm representing the private sector I'll I'll work with the Local transportation engineer the one working for the board to see if we can cut it back to a traffic study or a traffic report which features total generate total trip generation peak hours crash data site distance probably not much more than that and then instead of loading it into the level of service um calculations it wouldn't have mattered anyway but that's a standard Tia as and then if it's 25,000 ft or more um although this is not necessarily something that works terribly good in an in an area way outside of urbanization because you don't have commuter rail passes um bus routes things of that sort um you know there's enough here in this TMC component that would allow for some mitigation on the number of trips particular l l um car poool van pool onsite shower facilities for more people and more people are biking to work if they go [Music] um yeah and you know this is these are good practices and we do have limited regional Bus um you know there are actually two MBTA stations on our uh borders so you know I think keeping even things like the commuter rail passes could be okay could be used at some point which just I would have used it in a past life yeah aren't they cutting out Lakeville yeah Lakeville is shutting down it's it's going it's switching up to Middleboro okay the stations the two stations are only about a quarter of a mile apart but um but Middleborough uh when they open up that line it'll start there although if they run the cape flyer it may still be out of Lakeville but I'm not sure so here's the uh stuff I carved out of your existing level of service I think you said uh if it's going to go below D um no I'm sorry shall not reduce it below C or the existing losos whichever is lower for local streets and D for arterial intersections and I sort of bump that up to D meaning it's more lenient and if it's going to cause a decrease in one level of service or an increase in 10 seconds of delay you've got to show some plans that might improve the geometry of the intersection uh whatever mitigation might be useful so not much of a difference but [Music] some ask something real quick um sure and it it goes back also to the previous section about the 25,000 square feet and the the traffic impact um we already special have a special permit requirement for any facility over 10,000 square F feet and parking spaces 25 Square uh 25 parking spaces or more uh is there a reason why the traffic studies at 25,000 or not at the similar level that we special permit parking lots and sizes of buildings at 10,000 I would say that if you're going to tell me that you will wave it back for buildings between 10 and 25,000 then I would leave it in so that you could wave it back but if you're gonna if you're GNA apply it simply because you can I think 10,000's kind of unfair it's expensive tias is you know I I work with Bob mishod from MDM Transportation Jeff Dirk Ken crra and my understanding from them is that the the bottom line for a tias is somewhere around 20,000 okay yeah plus plus the peerreview fee right yeah okay Mark on number nine yeah um I crossed that off because your parking section's going to say that okay I was wondering why we removed the standard to minimize curb parking that's all no your parking section is going to say all off street parking shall be provided as follows got it thank you yeah yeah I I like that you're switching it to a maximum parking I think that's a a good move to ensure that we're not going to see an ocean of parking and the opposite is what I've seen you know very recently and um I like a provision at the end of these sections that say that says um you know if you want to put in less parking because you've either got off-site shared spots or the two or more businesses are going to share parking and they don't use the spaces at the same time or you just think that the calculation is wrong because more of your people are staying home and working remotely then ask for a special permit and if everybody agrees generally with the help of a parking expert that you're pretty um on pretty Solid Ground by special permit this is this is going to be in the parking section by special permit just ask and you can get by with less spaces sometimes make you Bank spaces that they didn't build so that if they ever needed them they could be built at that point in time but I think parking predictions from experts don't really require that and I'd rather see that um you know it it's just going to be a green grassy area why not let it be used for something a little bit more attractive than banked parking land in the event the prediction didn't didn't work out yeah that'll be that'll be in the parking section not here yeah I'm all for any Mitigation Of over doing parking for people there there's too many parking lots everywhere I did New Bedford many years ago and in the middle of the project Compass bank proposed to put a a Corporate Center in downtown New Bedford and when you ran it through the calculation in the table it was it was like 500 parking spaces do you want to parking lot or do you want the corporate headquarters so we we cut it back that way 500 spaces in a downtown that's yeah that's it's not walkable I mean unless it's in a garage but then that that gets expensive pretty quickly yeah and by the way when you see the sign provision you'll see pretty much the same thing if it's two I the Subaru dealership that I permitted enact and called me back after the permits have been issued and said now we got to go for the signs we're going to need a variance how do you get a variance for a sign soil condition shape or Topography of the sign necessitate a variance it's really what it is is I don't want to comply with this because it's kind of dumb as it applies to me and what I want to do isn't going to hurt anybody that's a special permit so you'll see the same sort of special permit relief in the sign section when we get to the first St draft here and there's a section on bicycle and pedestrian safety and then location of parking areas um this basically says um where feasible side or rear but you can still put it in the front if the authority decides that that's not going to blow anything up and then going back to 12 please y um with an F with the panel's agreement um I'd also like to require a paved or unpaved public parking area if it's a budding we do have a rail trail going in we just had p a paved access to you just want me to add paved or unpaved no I want to say so paved access route to the bike way is great but I would like to add and a paved or unpaved public parking area okay I agree okay I'm GNA write it write it in my notes Here hang on I may I may have missed something but Laur um is this I guess are you getting that so if a developer comes in and their property AB buts a public bike we right away we're going to require them to also have public parking for access to that potentially yes if we deem it so for example to the balfor farm site um it AB buts directly the new rail trail yeah and so we had them put in a parking an unpaved parking area at the end of Briggs yeah so something along those lines it it's not a requirement so let's say for example they build on the parcel next to it do we need another one right there no but I think it would be nice to have the ability to condition it okay okay I got I got notes to that effect just to make it easier for people to get to the the rail trail that's all they're just finishing up in Sudbury my local Bruce Freeman rail trail goes from LEL to Framingham this is the last stretch that uh ties the whole thing together but I could I add something to this um to go along with what lur was saying about the public access to the bike way um the open space committee is currently working on a plan to create access to our waterways could we also mandate in the similar way that we create an access and parking requirement to our our waterways if we deem it necessary um I don't see why we couldn't add why don't we add something more generic that just because this is talking about access routes to bikeways now we've added public parking areas why don't we just add um publicly accessible locations bikeways and other amenities I I wouldn't mind adding more to it as long as we keep the teeth on the on the public parking spots yeah but any access to our our you know alternative transportation features and natural landscape and waterways pawns that would all I'd like all that covered if possible all right so I've got if the property ABS a public bike way right of way public parking area or other public amenity a paved access route may be required no I think because that that's not requiring them to put a paved parking area that's saying if it AB buts a public parking area if if that's how I'm reading it does that sound the same to you Laura y okay and you want to require the the parking we want to provide the public access so if they want to come in and do a picnic lunch and they don't live nearby they can leave their car and get to the site and the parking area would be privately constructed and owned so in bfor that was part of the I think it's part is it part of the homeowners association that would make sense yeah that's I mean that's always it's always a liability issue it's always a that that was going to be my question mark is like so if if I guess Laur something to consider if balfor comes and gets those roads accepted as public ways then the then the developer then creates the parking lot but then at at what point is the town responsible and liable for maintenance and and anything else that may happen in those areas if if that development of that property becomes public yeah there's a big difference the open space is still owned by the property owners period that parking lot become part of the open space I mean it's in this specific one I don't think we we didn't deed it to the town so it wasn't carved out as part of the subdivision so we can public easement yeah and the parking space parking should provide access to whatever open space that it was built on originally anyways yeah so all of that's going to be on a case- by casee basis I think what we've got here is a good base for future yeah yeah there are some situations in which parking areas in a private development will devalue to some extent the areas closest to the parking um you if you get an influx of people from outside the subdivision coming in you know negative impact on the community yeah yeah right and then of course there's liability issues as well let me let me take a crack at this I'll I'll um I'll do a little I know that there are statutes that say if you open up your property to recreational use or conservation use by the public you're not liable so let me just check that statute again yeah I believe that is true it's just if you charge your fee that's when you have to have the insurance right but yeah as I would read it I guess it would be like if the property abuts a public bike way or ride of way a paved access route and public parking area to well a paved access route to the bike way and a public parking area may be required is that would that be the better way to write it yeah or is a little more eloquent than I am I you know there like in the subdivision control La you're entitled to identify and temporarily hold open space for three years that's what the statute says um and that's because you're expected as a municipality to buy it within three years if it's that important to you um if you attempt to just take take it as open space I believe that the court judge Piper in a Stow case said it was permissible and he was reversed by the appeals court well let let's take for instance uh our upcoming possible Elm Street uh Reen Barton development they have a pond on private property that's connected to our river system and I would like to be able to enforce that to be able to be uh public use like a public access regardless of what's built there well now you're getting into I mean you're really headed into takings jurist Prudence at this point there's a couple of Supreme Court cases that have exactly that example uh Kaiser Etna a Hawaiian case it was a an inland saltwater Pond hydraulically connected to the ocean they opened it up and and all of a sudden the Kaiser at a resort was filled with people like you and me that they didn't want there and they sued U the government for for taking it by opening it up and they won it's there's a whole line of takings cases that turn on whether or not there's been a physical invasion of the land promoted by the government without compensation yeah if we get to that point we'll need to go deep into what is the right of the Waterway laws and all that funz so I'll I'll try to keep it you know mild and and not uh confrontational let me see what I can come up with thank you I don't think I changed anything on aesthetic standards these are yours mostly because the ones I had were equally milk toast um but these are the basics you could obviously go into much more detail in terms of architectural standards and and preferences but I wouldn't do that a town meeting I think you're inviting a disaster and if you adopted them as regulations you don't need to go to town meeting just as a point of reference I was asked by Newberry Port to review their five pages and you know It's All Greek Revival architectural standards they didn't I told them not to put it in front of town meeting and they ended up taking my advice it's it's about this short in the bylaw but they accomplished what they needed to by reg not by bylaw um on on utilities uh basic ideas here are everything should be adequate in the know I haven't changed this yet um everything should be adequate capacity wise water sewer site security um underground utilities are preferred the U fire alarm system should be reviewed and approved by the fire chief and then the last one on fiscal analysis I wouldn't use this to um make the decision if in other words if you thought it was going to be too demanding on cost of services to the municipality I wouldn't deny something solely on that basis what I'm what I like about this is getting you the ability to get the knowledge about what the cost benefit analysis is going to be those of you who know Judy Barrett Judy and I did a project for the small town of leester w west of Worcester they zoned for big boxes uh they just wanted big boxes on stretch of I don't remember the road I think it was route nine and they got a they got a Walmart and maybe it was a Home Depot it was a Home Depot it was 210,000 foot Home Depot and they they promised that there would be $175,000 in gross tax contributions Judy found in the neighboring town of or nearby town of Oxford a similarly sized Home Depot and little was Walmart telling us that there were 800 police calls to the Oxford Police Department as a result of the Walmart or the the Home Depot so what does that do to 175,000 in a in a town with two cops or three cops right it becomes I think you're repeating your story here Mark I think we heard last time yeah I wouldn't say no I I would say thanks for the information and like you know in in terms of multif family housing they they're right around break even for the most part especially if it has an affordable component and that's including you know the long forbidden analysis of school kids which is under 40b irrelevant so so there's the waiver um of Standards provision uh this because you're granting a special permit or a site plan approval you can wave during the course of that review process and the last provision is on enforcement um mark it looks like we need a correction on the citations so I think yeah 41 should be 632 yeah and then 631 and within number 12 should be 63 got it so is your general um take on this that we should go forward and at least put this in the first draft I think this is a major Improvement I noticed we don't have Landscaping standards here are they going somewhere else thought there were uh I I thought that there were separate Landscaping standards are there freestanding Landscaping standards in another section of the bylaw I don't have the bylaw here with me right now I believe though yeah that's why when I redo that they'll stand alone I can move them in here if that's something that you would prefer me to do yeah they're in 18 section 18 yeah do you want me to moving into this I'm not moving parking or signs in here so I thought if it's if it's and lighting or not lighting but um or Landscaping but you know they'll you wouldn't move parking into this no no where else would it go it's good normally when I Rectify um the standard table of contents is um purpose and Authority you know a couple of other uh minor Provisions go in there amendments things like that and then yeah section two is District section three is uses section four is Dimensions section five is non-conformities six is General regulations and you know starts off with parking 6.1 goes to signs 6.2 this would be 6.3 Landscaping would be 6.4 okay um seven is special regulations so it would be things like Wireless Earth uh movement things of that sort so I think you Landscaping seems to seems logical to put them there within six yeah I think we're happy to take some suggestions on those as well I we've been told by more than one applicant that our Landscaping standards are somewhat onerous they're onerous yeah H the tree numbers and calculations I guess are higher than normal H well I worked with u i don't if you want to take a look at something online you'll never get more Draconian than Southboro but take a take a look at their um their Landscaping standards there's you know there's some good ideas in there but it is really expensive to do what they want yeah we get requests to wave usually trees especially within subdivisions we require quite a few of them along New Street okay well I'll take a when I go through the next exercise I have to go through which is to put the first draft together um you know if I see something that I think is fishy or expensive or unnecessary I'll just make a color out of it and call it to your attention thank you so that's my next um I think step here um I've got I've been you know when I take a plane ride or something I've got my laptop with me and I've been gradually converting your stuff to my format I did parking and signs this past week and now I'm headed into the the more Arcane sections of the bylaw but you know if I'm just ruming it I don't need to put it into the first draft I can just tell you where it's going to go and I'm about ready to give you a first draft um in that regard so why don't we see if we can find a night that's coming up in May where toward the end of the month where I've got um you know 10 days in advance I can give you the entire first draft or as much of it as um as much of it as uh as useful Memorial Day is a little early this year can we do Tuesday the 28th or are you still barbecuing I'm on vacation that week I'm thinking that you know if I can give you the first draft and we can get a second draft generated before the 1 of July we we're a long way off still but I would want you to be able to begin to think about the fall where we do a workshop and that gives you the summer to look through the bylaw and make sure we're on the right track maybe share it with some close um Confidant confidants and and then and stakeholders obviously and then we come back after Labor Day and we we do the first Workshop after that we go to a third draft so with that in mind why not try to do something you're you're back um the week of the third right or are you going two nope how about Tuesday the 4th of June that works cool with me six is a good time to start because it's a long night I guess so hearing no objection it's in my book so if we're before we get done for the night right thought that is this uh like an appropriate time to go over some more uses for our uses table or should we put that for a another meeting in the future I think we went through it all last meeting and I'm going to put a first draft together on that basis but that means that we'll catch up to it again when we go through the first draft okay awesome you had mentioned something about an agricultural suggestion or two and if you get that to me you know I can I can take a look at it and I can circulate that separately so that people see it okay yeah I mean I I made a whole set like a whole thing of settings for each part of it whether it's the open space residential you know agricultural uses commercial and Industrial I have some updates or suggestions for each each part so it would be nice to get like some group input on whether any of those seem enticing feasible not reasonable yeah the one the one problem we have is the meeting law so um I can circulate it um and then people can respond directly to me but not include others and then I generally go through town staff yeah yeah right okay so why don't we do that why don't you get it to me I'll take a look at it uh I'll send it over to uh staff and then they'll circulate it with instructions to just respond to staff and and consultant okay awesome thank you great Mark I believe we did get uh Steve's agricultural on March 26 which was a few days after our meeting I did send it out to everybody but uh I didn't get any comments there was a slight update but it's mostly the same as what I sent you but either way I I will send out the whole new updated thing with some some keys for everybody's information and go from there yeah I did get it from Brian okay I see it's it's on the top of my email so I'll take a look at that is that what you want me to circulate on your behalf or have you got something deeper Steve you're muted I will send you a whole new updated one so nothing prior goes out okay cool all right great yeah yeah thank you this is great my pleasure my daughter and her husband are here from New York City and I cooked dinner while I was talking to you so it's I had it ready to go in the kitchen so um at 7:30 and that's when I told him to take it out of the oven well go eat so we get so we got seven more minutes with you we should get our no no I'm sure they botched something you got more stories I know it they botched something in there that's I gotta go look awesome thanks again Mark thanks thank you Mark thank you Mark thank you everybody it's great seeing you Tom oh not hearing you Tom Tom you're unmuted but you you aren't saying anything Poor Tom well we'll see you Tom we'll see you around here but it's great seeing you --------- recording in progress all right six o'clock we'll call the meeting to order we'll start Pledge of Allegiance I pled allegiance to the flag of the United States of America to the for it stands i l all right it's okay yeah it happens that's no announcement right so um the meeting is being reported by nort media Norton Public Schools as reporting um vote to approve I just said hi g i else really hi to Peter okay um so vote to approve the minutes of March 21st joint meeting does anybody have any questions or comments on that um minutes NOP is there a motion to approve the March 2st 24 minutes so is there a second second all in favor and then um April 11th open session meeting minutes everyone have a chance to look at that anything on that there a motion to approve 11 minutes second all those in favor that was correct I guess now I'm up warrants I reviewed and approved the following School expense warrants April 11th 2024 $765 29577 and school payroll warrant April 4th 2024 1,729 584 which enter the department record all right vote to approve transation B SE all right so um we are Rec um based on the memo that um we have given you we are recommending um an award for our invitation to bid that we had for our school transportation that was released in March 20th um we had a pre bid conference on March 27th where we had one vendor um come which was each um the deadline for the bids return the bids was on this Monday April 22nd at 11:00 a.m. um even though we had six um vendors return bids only one was submitted and um two people at the B opening which was Matt from is and Steve how you pronounce his last name um and the the only bid was a 5 contract for 7,1 189,190 from H Mo which is our current contractor um right now we have the two TI system TI two buses and tier three in the first um it's a 5.2 increase over our tier two bus and 4.67 increase over tier three um and combined with our atic buses and our late bu the total increase is around 4.8% for um FY 25 um so we are recommending that you award you so on this I know we're looking at school start times and all that is Bloom aware that we could make changes to the roots that's okay with them within the contract or we have to redo it when that comes you don't have to redo but in the bid specifications we made sure that that the ker 6 was discussed um um that we could change the tiered system so um I have them for you if you want to keep that done but the um we asked for they did a tier four they gave us prices for that too so they give us comparative data than what we have currently but they gave us options so they know that that is being discussed and it's right anything else and hypothetically if we were to cut all the way down and there would be no Middle School busing what what happens with the contract um you can only cut 25% of a contract okay um that just m a lot for anything so um that's why the number of buses that we've discussed at one point was important so as long as we don't go below which it comes out we have an odd number it would be like 3.7 you know what I mean so um as long as you don't go below that then you stay within the contract on got it and we would have to B we would have to bring some buses to the middle school because um the requirements for mandated busing goil to sixth grade so they would still be buses coming here cor um and then two more questions yeah can you kind of Define just so so's aware what is a return bid and a submitted bid what does that kind of mean could you said six companies returned um so they [Music] returned requested the bid so they asked for the bid specification so you have to record how many people asked for the bid specs um which is good so they wanted to see what we were asking for um so we always like to repord that and put that on public record and then also but then only one actually return the bid so six companies said hey we want to see what you got that's correct and then five of those companies said we want nothing to do with you they just didn't come or didn't Le I say it's very typical it's very typical for multiple companies to request the bid STS each other so yes so and um you know typically one do we know how like in general how many carriers are there there only I can only think of like four well it's interesting too because the ones that asked other than AG Bloom were not one of the ones that were around us so they're trying to make their way and call the idea that this is a competitive process it's sh yeah this um and then can you like what is so when it says the first year is a 5.21% increase over tier two and a 4.67 over tier three kind of what are those tiers in relation to I guess sure so we have um five buses at tier two which means they only go to two schools two routs and tier three is they do uh three runs three so um it would be high school lgn then it would be hey middle then JCS that would be a three tier bus Which 10 buses do that and then the other five do only two so that's why we only have the two and three at one time I believe years ago you have four K and then we reduce yeah I think we reduce in com by yes but I can provide you with the form where actually shows the breakout of um and the increase of year two so it ranges from 4.6 uh year 2 to 5.5 and back 5.26 back five um and based off of just um us asking around doing some research with colleagues they came in a very reasonable price at um just under five yeah other communities saw things around 78 9% increases so we were happy this did from each of them and um they were happy to have that fiveyear contract as well so that was something that I think helps on million a lot of money though for busing also I think that is a lot of money need a newspaper and no we don't have it done right now so I'm sure so when we pay this it's $7.1 million over five years so we pay 1.4 million $1.4 million for the next five years is is it's not an equal thread but yes okay now hypothetically now is probably going to happen but if we got $2 million next year that we could put towards busing would that could we pay down like Advanced pay Advanced pay yes yeah I don't know why you would well because you could then say if you had if we had additional do let's just hypothetically say next year we're working a surplus of $600,000 could we take $600,000 and give it to bloom and then that would reduce our cost moving forward no you can renegotiate the like say they did well with the first two years but that's because of our situation I'm assuming um but if our 5% we wanted sooner or we had more money here we can change we can work with them and see if they were often to change their percentages throughout the course of the five years of the increases as long as the bottom line stays the same and also can't prepay for services okay um with as part of the the whole school Finance component anything that we pay has to occur within that fiscal year so um there's one thing we can prepay we can prepay something tuition sometimes tuition um in certain cases but typically you have to the services have to be rendered during that FAL year and this starts July one and then from the so we have our for next year so fiscal year 25 we have a $1.4 million bus fee that the district is Bank how much do we make in user fees around 130 diber but we the district is paying basically $1.3 million in busing that's no user fees sorry that's with user fees invol so little under that so we're looking at $1.3 million it's a massive cost correction that that has nothing to do with actually charging CES any other questions no motion to approve the transportation bid as written we really have a choice that's why I'm like so okay so is there a second second all those in favor all right vote on Elementary Ela program adoptions Brian hi hi thank you for the uh nice discussion over the last couple meetings about the program um as we kind of to bring us back to this point in time we've had multiple rounds of negotiation with hmh we've been really fortunate to have a flexible partner we've been able to you know deduct uh just about $150,000 in a total asking price um over a fiveyear period so um if to recall from last meeting the committee I believe was looking for the five-year adoption plan and the cost um as kind of the the target for us so the target number uh all in with everything is $2,273 69 hmh is willing to pay allow us to pay that over a threeyear period so they would be looking for for a 34% um payment in year one that is $68,900 5 for year two and year three each would comprise 33% of the total ask the year two and year three cost would be $ 66,9 31 and just going back to my question before we have this money because we won't be paying what we currently have and then we have some M budgeted for it yes and we have some we have some offsets so what this will allow us to do is some consumables that we get for instance for foundations we will will not order those so the cost avoidance to the district will be about 30,000 okay I just want to make sure we're not you know Finding money right but it's want to be transparent as to how we're paying for this fine good job on the yeah thank you I just uh you know I appreciate it sometimes these things get a little sticky um but I appreciate everybody's questions and the discussion about this because um you know I know in just honoring the work that you know G is here tonight and the rest of the field test team but as well as the curriculum Council and all the elementary folks have done over the last year and a half it's really you know I really see this as a validation of all the time that they put in and I will say this and I'm not afraid to say it it's going to be a driver of our Improvement um across multiple me sooner rather than later yeah I think this is one of the more indepth curriculum conversations we've had in a while program and for a variety of different reasons because we had asked questions about how can we do better then we went out and find it and now the obviously the questions are constantly surrounding money which we were able to understand where where we're coming from that to work with us so um you know thank you to you and and the the staff for really following through what we asked them to do do you have anything else this just a logistics I think why is it a fiveyear program if we're paying it three we have the program and the licenses for five years um they would like full payment over a three-year window and this is one of those things you can prepay we have extra money yeah I mean thank you guys G you too for for all your work there was never a doubt that this is what needed to happen but when we brought this up at a time where we're talking about budget we just needed to make sure that you know we did everything we could to get the best you know pricing and all that stuff and just make sure you know the community knows that how we're paying for it you know just Optics of it so nice to have you guys thank you anybody have anything else all right so do we have a motion to approve the elry ELA program adoption is there a second second all those in favor congratulations you guys you very much thank you all all right we do good things with those little ones we will yeah we will the team team is ready and uh they're just so excited we're gonna get everything going tomorrow I hope this is a little bit of good news in the time where it hasn't been a lot of good news all right so we'll move on discussion and vote on school choice okay um so I shared some information with you earlier yesterday um and I wanted to um talk about some of the district costs um of school choice and first I want to uh think Casey Casey's here um Alex sanbor who is one of the administrative assistants well the administrative assistants excuse me in the special education office in Christine who will spent a huge amount of time going through looking at special education services pulling out student I um double cheing them against our own staff rates um and putting this information together for you um I want to start first with the fixed costs and the variable costs denz and I have spent a lot of time talking about um what makes something variable versus what makes something fixed um and I appreciate the conversations that we've had uh so the information that you have in front of you today looks a little bit different than it did yesterday um I had you know based on you know just my thought process had included all of the teacher salary information there and what we've and I discussed earlier today is really it would just be that teacher salary that we could potentially reduce if we did not have choice and looking at our numbers the only place that we could really actually reduce a classroom teacher maybe would be in JCS and grade three because we have 14 um SCH Choice students at that grade level um at really any other level there is not enough um information or not enough students at that grade level or um spread across classroom that would make a significant impact to the number of classrooms there so when you take a look at variable costs that are you know at times dependent on student enrollment we're looking at instructional supplies we're looking at technology Hardware or software if we are providing students with a device um General General supplies within the school so for example art supplies paper all of those types of things um our curriculum and testing material so you just heard Dr aan talk about our new reading program that may have a marginal cost there um and then that one classroom teacher uh reduction basic the choice so taking a look at that we were able to kind of figure out what a per pup cost would be um for these variable costs divided amongst our entire student enrollment so you can see those variable costs it's about $153 per student when you take a look at the top of the sheet here there is these fixed costs so things that don't necessarily change change based on our student enrollment um majority of our actual staff um as I mentioned previously we would still have School nurses we would still have this college education teachers art teachers um the administrative costs when you think about our building principles our central office administrative assistance or legal fees all of those things are um pretty much expected and fixed the uh cost to um operate and maintain our building utilities uh transportation that is our current number for FY 24 um and then professional development for our staff which in most cases is a contractual obligation and then when you look at networking that is um not professional networking but our networking systems for our technology um and wireless Services um so when we take a look at this number it is definitely lower than the $5,000 cost that we get per student um from choice and a lot of that obviously goes to offset some of the fixed costs that we already have in terms of the special education um breakdown as you can see um Casey and Christine and Alex um gave you an example of of each of a student in each of our schools um and to make sure that we're protecting our students privacy we just gave you some details about the services that they require um and we talked about what the reimbursement rate is those reimbursement rates that we're receiving are in the yellow and then what the actual cost to Norton is is in the purple I think it's important for us to note that those costs that are in purple are regardless if we have a school choice student in those groupings or not um every single one of these situations um has students that are in a small group or um in in a group with at least four three or four other students so there's a four or five students in the group um which means that in almost all cases the groups would exist with or without those school choice students so when you take a look you can see um that the first student example we're saying that you know what we what the cost quote unquote cost was versus the reimbursement we're still ahead by what $680 that number is actually not accurate number because those costs would have been maintained regardless that student was in there or not you're actually getting the reimbursement there can I just break in real quick because yeah uh it it's semantics but maybe it's not so do if I explain how I look at this please so the purple is actually not the cost that's that's not the correct way to look at this um the way you want to work at this is you want to actually work at any backwards so I'll take one that's in that's that comes up as a um reimburse reimbursement versus cost negative Force the lgn student if you look at the El student it's a group of four people the reimbursement right now is $3,995 The NPS teachers hourly rate is 7923 times 180 hours that is a fixed cost because we will have three students in that in any case so the cost to us is not $3,565 33 per student it's that number that 79 it's the the 3565 to Bel whatever it is like that's that's what that number is the way you want to look at this to say okay we're going to have to have that teacher in place anyways that number and the question is do we want to have it with or without the $3,199 of reimbursement so the things that look like a negative down here that's actually that's actually not correct now there's a different conversation that Justin and and this is one I had with with d and that was if we have three instead of four you know is is the fourth student somehow detracting from the gr and I maybe if you want to talk about it like he basically said No in fact it's probably better to have four student in there and they maybe F I don't know enough about how these groups work I don't know the dynamic of it we want to talk about that I mean it really is dependent upon the group and and of the kiddos that are in it the staff that are there um often times if it's like a a Counseling Group having four is is much better than having two or three because there's more voices and more opinions to be boed off of each other if it's a more intensive speech or OT session it's actually more challenging when there's that PO in there but there's often times a professional or someone else to help support that situation so we try to be conent of grouping students when we're doing that um and trying to make sure that it is the most effective and appropriate setting for both staff and students to make it a session that's GNA gain progress and not to trct from anyone so I mean it's it's four but it's kind of a ballpark as to what that would actually look like so that's a conversation we can keep having but with respect to the finances of it this I don't know if this is representative pretty much everything but it would seem that as long as there are not individuals who are getting one on service most of them we can look at and say okay financially it actually is is is better for us to do it because so we wanted to show you different we wanted to show you different scenarios to show that it it is variable every single student if we were to sit down and do this with every single one of our our students that fall into this category you would see these numbers fluctuate in every single scenario But ultimately it's a cost positive for us because we are bringing in funds that we would not have if these students were not here and not in these groups um so similar to the conversation that we had about the classroom position um it there's really not a lot of opportunity for us to reduce staff if we didn't have the school choice component um because it's they're spaced out in a way that these groups would still happen um the majority of the time when you actually go in and you actually look at the Dynamics of the group is it's almost always one choice student with three or four n students and it you know in other times it have be two Choice students with you nor students it really just depends on the particular dynamics of that grade level those service grids and everything else that comes with it um but to as this point those groups would be H happening whether or not we're getting the reimbursement of $3,800 or not I just have oh sorry well there's just there's two things I wanted to bring up one's a question one's a comment going back to the first sheet I think it's important to note on the technology the hardware a lot of the technology and Hardware opportunities all of our students have is from the school choice members so I think that's a that's a positive conversation to have we'd be in a lot more Dire Straits if we didn't have the school choice expended appropriately towards technology um the second part and and this is just more of a question when we look at these hourly rates if and I don't know this this could be you answering Casey or Jen if we lose say a teacher that's been here 25 years and hire somebody in theory for a lower cost as a newer teacher is that rate can totally different okay the rate's totally different so when we were going through this process and Christina and Alex were sitting down yesterday and I even we were all sitting in the conference room together you're like okay so who is the step person you're like oh that person's been here for 30 years the number is going to be different than this person who just started last year like so there it's constantly changing and that's why every single one of these scenarios is so different and Dan I just want to piggy back on what you talked about with the technology piece um I think it's important for people to know that all of our curriculum funds for the last several years including the upcoming projected budget all of that is funded through school choice all of our supply money comes through school choice um all of our technology comes from school choice as well we do not have any room within our regular budget for those per purchases and it's um that's something that over the years when budgets starting to get a little bit worse I know you know Joe said it for a number of years we're coming to the edge of this clip when we were told that we needed to cut things we moved a lot of things into school choice in order to maintain that level of service that we that we want to provide for our students um and unfortunately the Well's dry the Well's dry and and you know losing that money also means your losing I mean going back probably three or four years uh you know Dr bayetta had had voted a suggestion of tying some salaries to school choice so that we would people would be driven to continue with school choice like I.E his salary could be contingent school choice or something of that nature and we we decided that probably wasn't the best use or you know things like that because you know you don't want to get into as as like we don't want to pay salaries with this and unfortunately over those last few years that has happened you know there are salaries that are in school choice because we were not able to sustain them within the regular budget and that's that's the concern that I have is I know you all have as well but um I know Justine has questions too but I just wanted to so I just have um enrollment oh yes I haven't gotten to that yet it bases like from November so I just want to make sure that I'm understanding um so you're saying the only teacher you could eliminate is from grade three because there's 13 school choice kids at the Bas potentially yeah right right um so I guess when I look at this though I see grade four has 15 school choice kids and grade five has 21 so why couldn't you eliminate a teacher from each of those so the grade four um is 15 divided among seven classrooms so it's one it's two students per classroom versus JCS only has five so it's a little bit more for for clom would I'm sorry the grade four is divided by eight um divided by eight classroom so it's one or two students per classroom so if you kept the teacher the numbers would go up in the other speciic classes so it's just because the Y school has a greater number of sections because of all of our fourth and fifth grades together versus JCS has x amount of classrooms and lgm has x amount of classrooms if JCS and lgn were a combined P to 2 K to3 School those numbers would be different like grade three at JCS has 14 grade three at lgn has 10 that's that's a classroom that's 24 kits but because they're not together in the same building doesn't work that make sense it doesn't but and I guess I'm just not I don't I just I feel like you're no and so I mean ultimately amongst eight it would be one or two student so cutting you know 15 off of 200 you might have to be at 185 but this the easy way to look at it is if you had 100 just makeing s if you had 150 students in a grade level divided that by say so it's easy that's 15 kids in each class right just with no 15 kids well if hypothetical but if you 15 kids in class and you have 15 School Church You' be able to then cut it to yes absolutely what you really need to do is take how many kids are you each and divide by how many we have and whatever that number is would be okay let's just we're usually around 20 21 22 depending on the class uh and I'll speak to my own kids my own kids are 20 and 21 at first and second grade so if we have first and second grade we only have nine and five that MTH ain't going to work unless we're going to add kids to you know basically take those 11 kids and S them out and put two kids in each other classroom now you can save on a teacher it might increas class right so the yeah but the Assumption you're making is that will fine increasing class sizes so yeah you can you can do that but then by the same token I would say Well then why don't we just cut two teachers increase the class sizes even more we three and so there's there there comes a there's there's an inflection point on on students in the classroom right we say Okay above and beyond this now we're actually deteriorating the the level of education for moreing kids so I think probably maybe an easier way to look at this just to save time on conversation is cut a teacher from every single grade at 68,000 divided by the 246 students we have that's $3,317 of cost so we'll call it$ 3500 just for sake of the argument it's not B we'll just call that so it's $1500 in profit on each kid sorry to call it profit but it is profit um saying kids are business but I think there's two two things we got to also remember here one this we have we have five examples that's 239 kids we don't know in terms of what are the they're not all in I understand but if you just took the however many are in special ed and did this whole thing but I don't know let's say it's 60 we should see 60 of these because these five are just randomly picked whether they're picked in a favor or not who knows you know who so it's and I think a bigger piece to your thing is you thought we were being reimbursed dollar for dollar yes clearly we're not no I was F about thing and that was that was what drove for me that was what drove this conversation correct I was under impression a and it was B correct that being said looking at this I'm I'm much more comfortable with it because again the reimbursement in in the small groups and and you are right that we are seeing um some limited examples here and I don't know if I don't know how much it would be to see more and this is one of the reasons I actually said I wanted Del lay the vote I think I told you guys like we we got the original numbers which we not Cor 24 hours before the vote it's not enough time to go through this I don't think I think we need time to process it time to ask questions people may have questions they want to ask offline of Jen and Christine um and Casey so you know but but again I if I look at it and I go backwards and say okay in a gr of four we would have you know this this teacher no matter what do we want the reimbursement or not I always always will take the reimbursement I it's not a ton of money but it's you know yes but then I think there's another piece of this which obviously I like data and I like numbers in terms of you know what we're trying to do here especially with the budget cost but there's also a big factor of immeasurable cost here and you can never quantify it where it needs to be teacher student ratio is one you take 246 kids out that's removing and our ratio teacher and student ratio is going down that's always a good thing to burnout of our teachers in terms of you know they they go from 22 kids in that classroom and you took two or three kids out now they're down to 19 18 that's a good thing that's less especially at the elementary levels obviously from from what we just talked about four kids in a group compared to three kids in a group I'm sure this situations I would say probably 80% of those times a smaller group in a in a special education classroom is probably better and you know one on just do it simple if you have three kids instead of four kids in a room 25% of the the teachers attention is going to one kid hey if there's only three kids in that room get tax money 33% that's better for our kids last one last one behaviors we've seen this issue behaviors all across country not just by any means of especially on a middle school level you know and again I'm not saying the school choice kids are the bad kids I'm just saying we're adding 21 20 grp 7 21 we're adding 62 kids to our Middle School let's just say 10 of those kids are behav that's 10 more kids we're dealing with at a behavioral level that is taxing our vice principal principal Mar Rashad sat right here and said to us with the police stuff saying it's just school choice however he did say Middle School's been a nightmare in terms of this year and the behavioral issues we have we're adding additional things that we will never be able to quantify and add by having a school choice program at at this size in my opion so you're right about the if we took all these kids out the class sizes would go down and that's an immeasurable except you're forgetting the biggest problem with that is if we take all these kids out what's our current take from don't have fin luxury to let's say that we did because I think it's important because he's he's making a point oneor 1.6 1.6 so 1.6 million you know know at this point you know we're cutting a massive number of of positions right now so if you take that one point we could actually take the kids out you also have to take the $1.6 million out so the teacher ratio is actually worse because we're going to have to lay off another back of the napkin 21 teachers so it's you don't have a lecture taking them out and keeping them mind taking them out no we don't but I'm saying I'm saying that you're saying there's an immeasurable but I'm saying the immeasurable actually is is is not a a negative like you think it is I think it's actually a positive because we would actually have worse numbers if we didn't have these kids and didn't have the revenue plus take out the one like I said take out the 1.6 out of the budget too take that's saying take 1.6 out you have to fire all the teachers that that 1.6 million pays yes so your your scho your your classroom sizes are going to go up if no yeah yes it's hard to say that though it's hard to say that because that's by taking you three teachers there's only 12 grades I mean it's at least a teacher for grade you have to cut you're not doing that you're not taking all these kids out we're looking at school trade from the standpoint these kids are here these kids are here this would be a phased out approach of call it and years that's what I'm saying so yes are you taking $1.6 million out your point is every year we vote on it if we hypothetically if we ended school choice right now 246 kids out weekend are we going to lose some because of our our budget situation are we going to lose some of people moving on whatever and I'm not going to bring them in we're going to lose 14 kids automatically because they're are you know so that numbers already down to 232 if you would if everyone stays next year we'd have 232 the following year we'd lose 18 more so it would be a phased out approach so now when you're looking at those numbers it's not $1.6 million this year it's $1.6 million spread over over 10 I'm still not sure why you want to phase 1.6 million per time want to phase out Revenue I understand that because I I want to I I what I would like to do and I'm not saying get rid of school choice entir I'm a big school choice fan however in order to do it in order to make them make what Norton should be in terms of like we always say what do we want Norton to be how do we get there why are we dumping in more money and and doing a school choice aspect when we're not being reimbursed for what what we're putting in we we see it well we are though we're not what are your red numbers but the red numbers are we're not negative you still have the $2,300 so if you take the $23.99 subtract the 203 math $2,100 so you're telling me to educate a student Norton is $153 no just those variable it's a variable clost so that has nothing to do with Staffing that has nothing to do with all of the other components are up top like we didn't include atics that we pay for we didn't include other things there it's not so now now if you add these numbers again together and did like you said about the JCS and LG take those too I'm looking seven eight 10 years down the road if we ever did combine those schools that is not another option that we now cut we would start we would start seeing the phase process so terms what I think we would really need to do if we wanted to phase things out and I do want to talk to you guys about my recommendations tonight as well um what we would need to do is figure out how we making up whatever we're phasing out each year right so because we do not have any flexibility within the budget to account for any loss of Revenue um because it was different five years ago when we were not paying salaries with school choice when we were paying for the extra like nice to have stuff that's not the case anymore so if we were to phase out whatever it was over time we are really going to need to be continuing to look at how are we getting that money back in totally agree I think school choice is I think it can be a great thing for a district but I think when we're looking at like we've heard all year about the special education the behaviors are increasing at a younger age when we look at the overall piece I I think we just have to be very specific on numbers and um and where we're going to accept it and how many like where is the cost benefit and where is there not a cost benefit in looking at the the immeasurable as Nick says the kind of qualitative piece to it and then also looking at the numbers like there's got to be a balance in between I don't think that we can just be like yes let's just take everybody in that you know I mean we never really are denying kids because it's worked well legally can I just well you can deny you can deny point of we can only fit five kids in this grade you know what I mean like and I think we need to like really look and hone in on those specific numbers that obviously you can't deny a kid that's applying for if they have you know unless they have very specific classroom needs that we can't accommodate for obviously I just wanted to just clarify like the the numbers that are on that sheet with the five students that are there that's not that's not including the general like $66,000 that we get for them so that's an over and above money that's are costing us or being reimbursed for the four in the small group setting is the state number that is is outlined for small group um it's not our number so when they give us small group it's kind of like that's how they are defining a small group is four and under ours typically are two or three they're really not at four it's because it's not best practice for a lot of kids I mean that's really what what a small group is defined as and how we break it down um and then in terms of like the reimbursement for special education staff again those numbers are I mean our spreadsheets are broken down by our staff but those are Again State rates that are set for each of those things we've been working really hard over the past couple of years to redefine our service delivery grds and our IEPs so that we're maximizing our money that we're getting back for school choice so a lot of times so previously years like we had General Ed General teacher par or special education teacher versus reading specialist we get a higher reimbursement rate for reading specialist we're making sure that that our team chairs are are itemizing it as an individual session or small group or large group because those numbers are reflective of the costs that be reimbursed as well so I mean that's something that that um that Christine actually and and Alex really taught us um because we didn't realize that in terms of the reimbursement piece so we've been really working towards um maximizing all all of those pieces but I just want to say like I know that we're focusing on some of the negative pieces of school choice with the special education and the behaviors and the numbers and things along those lines but I also want to point out that we've got a lot of really really positive students that have come out of our school choice we've got amazing kids who are running Deca and doing amaz and doing Wonder wonderful things that have amazing peer models for our students that have come to join our sports teams at high school and have really made them what they are and having kids that want to come here and want to play nort sports and not want to leave to go to other schools and things along those lines so I think that we like you're talking about the immeasurables of the negative impacts but there's also the immeasurables of the positive things that come out of it as well and the experiences that kids are getting we've got quite a few diverse students that have come in through school choice that our Norton students may or may not have experienced and it brings a positive more inclusive community into what we have going on right now so I just wanted to make sure that we're while we're looking at negative measurables that we're also looking at the positive than that as well I think that's a good point because I guess somewhere along the way I'm confused about how we this turned negative about school choice I don't know how that I don't know how we flipped that or how it became like special ed and school choice and it became like kind of this this negative I'm not sure how we got here I just I just when you say we make 1.6 million off a school choice that's not real because we're not taking out the cost of what we're doing but we are getting a check for 1.6 million I think that's the bottom line of what school choice is yes but we have 246 kids that we have to service one way or another so that that we don't if we don't have math is your eny here not not full choice I don't understand like if there's a if there's a stake in the map point it out but I mean I don't like the intangibles I'm not really sure like what we supposed to do with something we can't measure by definition like I get what you're saying if if we think that school choice is is inherently bad and does not suit our students our students Norton students needs then that's a different conversation to have I thought this was originally because you were not convinced that we were this was a positive monetary program for us I thought that was the original I understand that but like you even with this what I have you're not you're not telling me how much money we're making so Nick if we take $153 5,000 minus 15371 is I call it back of the that because you can't even these numbers I'm not 100% sure that these numbers are are even accurate but I mean that's the back of the napkin kind of we're making 5,000 minus1 153 for example technology $41 we get iPads or pH books for $41 well when you take a look we have a 5e lease we get like if you if laptops in Chrome books for $41 you're absolutely stealing it's spread over the district it's spread over the district it's spread over the five years I get it I get take there if we don't have school choice we don't even we can't even have that discussion the school choice brought us something and and one thing I want to touch on with Casey the positive impact I believe it was three years ago the validian from high school school choice student and he went to Dart I'm not saying it's not positive school choice I'm a huge I trust me I'm a huge school choice fan my issue has become that I just don't think it's nearly as profitable to what we're saying it is so that's me and again I don't this hasn't proven my point to say hey this is actually let me explain can I tell you how these numbers can I just say I guess I would say this point like I guess tell us how you want to measure it then because we measured it like the right way and you're saying that's that doesn't really measure it's not not correct so I guess we need to figure out these 246 kids how many are in general how many are in special and break them down you cannot tell me we spend $177,000 per pupil in nor and then for $153 variable cost we can educate so we don't spend 17,000 for a pupil unless you take our entire budget and divide by the students correct that is not the way to do it go out go out and take whatever any 10 random kids and move them out of town tomorrow and tell me how much money we received the number is zero it's not a per kid expense it doesn't work that way that's not how a budget operates so you have to figure out okay is there a an incremental cost to that one kid being in here and that's what these numbers are these numbers are basically saying this is what that cost is and we get 5,000 is the $ 5,000 too low yeah I I you and I both agree on that it should be much much higher than that but so why though I mean another should be higher than that it's ask because it's 5,000 well because it's been 5,000 for whatever 17 years meanwhile the the number for uh what do you call it the charter schools go every damn year okay why shouldn't we have the same luxury as now okay then then that's my question why are we asking the state for more money if you're telling me we don't need more money you say well nobody say nobody ever said you're making up you're making up statements that was never said t on we were all in agreement when I reached out to our state reps that school choice money should go high it should so why are we asking for more school choice money if we don't actually need more school choice money who said we already first of all $5,000 no no no no you're you're conflating two different things you're conflating it is that profitable for us and the 5,000 per year over past 17 years is somehow a fair number those two are are mutually exclusive okay but okay I'm I think I think we we were more concerned with the disparity of our school choice reimbursement versus say like the virtual High School un have gone up Charter goes up you know the vot goes up everything else goes up why doesn't our one Revenue Source go up our Reven Source should go up as well that's and and we all agree on that I mean I think you're 100% right on that but but that is that is not the same issue as whether or not school choices is net positive or negative those those are I I don't the special ed reimbursement it's only kids that are on EP so if a student is getting like RTI Services we don't get reimbursed for that correct that's still at 5,000 what's RTI RTI is a student well I mean somebody else can explain it but it's a student that um maybe got screened for OT for example and they were picked up for I don't know six sessions eight sessions 12 sessions where the OT or Kota works with them maybe in a small group maybe one onone just to give them a little additional Support over certain am I I think so or you're working with the reading specialist yes um I have to say Justine we really don't have the extra staff do OT RTI which is really sad right because there are definitely kids who could use it but we just well am I it's p so it's not a huge but um I think so my recommendation to the committee tonight is for us to not accept any new students in K to 6 for next year because of the fact that we are looking at a really significant budget deficit we have are pulling back some of our supports for next year which looks at our reading interventionists our math interventionists our coaches are gone so I really feel that next year we should really make pause on K to 6 I am recommending that we could do an additional five students in each grade 7 to 10 I'm also one of the things that we've always done is that if a student is a school choice here and they're a student and they have a younger sibling we want to make sure we're keeping families together so that would be can I ask you a question when you say an additional are we at Max at all those grades now at 7 to 10 yeah no I think we probably still have a little bit of wiggle room only because of just the way that we're able to spread students no no no I'm saying do we have the number we are currently at do we have that many students enrolled I'm sorry I I don't you want to do an additional five students let say we we could in grade whatever seven seven y so seven let's just say 21 21 21 is our is our cap right now 21 is how many we have in roled currently it's not a cap do we have a cap on it right now there have have been no cap so you want to put cap on so I'm saying we can take five more seven to 10 not not have it wide open and the reason I'm not ad advocating for a wide open is because I think with our budget issues we have to we have to be thoughtful about what we're doing here um in terms of elementary students it would only be if they have a sibling that's already enrolled in school choice and they're coming up um last year we brought in 20 new kindergarteners across the two buildings that's that's a lot of kids um and the other thing I would ask the committee to consider would be allowing our J our um JCS sorry um allowing our NPS staff to bring their children um into school choice that they so chose um it's actually a really it's a benefit for both sides it helps us keep staff here in District and it's a benefit to their families too and we don't get a lot of benefits as Educators two questions yes Dan um do we not allow new school choice in 11 or is it just based on the number that you're not I know it's we don't allow seniors we don't allow seniors and we typically don't allow grade 11 either we kind of get to grade 10 and we feel like sometimes if you're leaving a junior or senior year of high school that's for a reason and um yeah so secondly with the staff exception to your proposal so if it's like a staff with like a second grader one like a one of that be yes and typically I mean I have um a staff member that their daughters coming to kindergarten and we've been doing choice for so many years and she said to me um do you have any idea what's going to happen like this has always been our plan said well we talk about it but it is my recommendation that staff will we continue to um so the exceptions at the elementary level are Legacy siblings and staff staff that would be my recommendation still you should go this tonight because I'm not sure if Nick is comfortable with it um I know if Justin is or not but think there's still questions is my guess I just had a quick one just about so um if we were to do the seven to 10 let's say um in grade seven they decided they're not going to send their kid so now that drops down to 20 so now like are we going to cap it at like for grade seven is 21 plus 5 would be 26 is that the cap or like that's a great question I thought about that honestly Justine um I mean I guess the other question I don't know how many seventh graders we'll have but I think as long as you don't go over that 26 it would beable I'm just curious you know what I mean like if a student is like oh I was school choice but I'm G to go back to my hometown or no I I honestly had thought about it but thank you I guess my question on that and Jesse made me think of it um and I just lost it um plus five plus five on current number yeah basically right I'll come back to you yeah so so the Legacy that's anyone who's currently in Andor has a sibling in so if you have a second grader school choice in and then you have a kindergarten comp you to take them to keep families together 100% And then n Public School teachers staff is there if you're paid by public schools you're in is it a full-time role is it part-time is it nurses admin everybody nor and Public School staff so two teacher no that's not a fulltime position so it has to be fulltime you have to be an actual employee did you did you mention yeah maybe said this I didn't hear you but um we've also all historically allow fames that moved out yes we did mention that okay um I didn't mention it but no um so typically what happens during the course of the year if a family leaves Norton um they are able to um move over to a v Choice family and a lot of times um families do that just for the end of the year and then other times families want to stay and so we've had a number of families over the year families that out yeah and actually we had a couple situations this year too that would allow them to St so how do we I guess from a law standpoint how do we isn't that kind of favoring people and not we can just tell them there and other people are out well so are we selecting at that point technically no because they are already here so it's we're not telling somebody from the outside they can't attend we're just allowing someone to St um so what we so basically what we would do in terms of of we have to send this to um desie by June 1st so we would say it is school Choices closed in K to 5 unless these two situations K six excuse me and then 7 to 10 this many spots and then 11 and 12 is close and how's that selection process work right now first first it's first come first Ser um so what happens is is um previously Dr B and myself we meet with every single school choice family we bring them in we have conversations about why why they want to come to Norton we talk about grades we talk about attendance we talk about the expectation of getting your child to and from school because we do not provide transportation um if the student has an ie it goes to PC P reviews the IEP and there have been cases where we've had to say you know I'm really sorry we're not able to you know meet the needs of your child's IEP here or our program is that capacity and those are the really the only cases that we can say no um or unless there's a felony charge so I remember my question yeah year over year do you get notified by school I know they don't have to reapply but did any out of courtesy say yes we're coming back no so like we're saying there 245 kids five of them could say say nothing and now we only know it's 240 no so what they I mean if they decided they weren't coming back they would unenroll um because they need their school records to be sent to that would likely be their District or wherever they're going to go right so um that's typically how we find out but it's just like any of our Norton families they can pick up and move tomorrow and sometimes they tell us [Music] and but yeah anybody have any other questions you you guys think you want to hold on this for a little bit I mean yeah I I don't I can vote okay you good every comfortable with fine you have to but I mean if you feel like you have good data and think the recommendations if you yeah you that's the thing I want you to like like I comfortable with the data no but I don't think I'll ever be comfortable with the data unless if unless unless you pull all 26 K one other pal I just thinking about is if you kind of think about this a in a little bit of a different way that I don't know it's just kind of throwing out there but if you look at like the eighth graders that don't come here for high school it's similar to the conversation you brought up earlier we're still not shutting down classrooms and we lose 30 kids to you know the Southeastern Bristol County so it's it's kind of that same thought process is we're still not shutting down you know a freshman class or we're not getting rid of a freshman teacher but we're still losing 30 kids to other school it would be a better example to because at that point you're starting to go to different classes you're going to different teachers anyway it would be like saying for second grade going third grade you lose 30 kids you would be able to lose in third grade say like every freshman has to have a lot of concerns about where Reven is still coming in business it is what it is all right so if we don't have any other questions do we have a motion to approve um the school choice recommendations as written don't have we don't have a written yeah you do it's in the it's in the packet I guess the motion would be let me read [Music] sorry so the motion would be corre correct would be for fiscal year 25 school choice enrollments would be limited to grade seven through 10 new new I I would just want to add here here's my thing though if we get like seven like I'm not going to say to two people no like I think there needs to be a little flexibility like we're anticipating five but like if seven show up and like like a set of twins shows up or something like we don't we don't have a we don't have a cat there's no magic member but yeah but like we don't we don't technically have a cap but we do have a cap you're not going to go and let in it's 70 great s place you know we we just don't say we're only taking third we're kind of like we're going to add five that would be 26 we have twins coming in we would say yeah 27's good yeah like if number five is the older twin and number six is the twin sorry is it older I think it's just one of those things that the goal is to increase a little bit yes to not go 15 extra kids in five s to 10 we don't see all of a sudden 10 kids show up it's it's you know perfect of those apartments I know right not so much might not be school choice but there might be seven or 10 your kids show well and that's residential so that is something out of our hand so all right so back to the motion so motion to approve the um the school choice um as written with the um with the addition of allowing uh transported students to R Miss hey there a second second all those in favor all right so discussion and vote thanks for your work on this too by the way yeah thank you interesting um so what you have front of you is so much what we' seen for now thees that we um so we we typically were give you recommendations before when we were discussing um some of our reductions on the items in yellow just so that you had an idea of where the numbers that we came from when we met together and um the other ones if you have any questions are just different increases so typically we doing $50 increase um and then there was options of 100 but and then um possy was one of the ones that was a little bit different the um increase so um a couple questions the I guess my first thought would be if we went to 100 on Sports just the fee and 100 on Transportation that's $104,000 of impact I mean that's at least one position we could keep right yeah I mean I don't know how we're not doing that quite honestly right now and and and I'll tell you right now I PID both of those fees so it's not something that you know I'm going to have to pay the money but if we can if we can keep a position and I don't know why we wouldn't go up to 100 done it before yeah the only thing I want to say is that um the number of Stu that we had going now that was based off the 50 so it would be a full say that again sorry so reduction we have now um it is based with the 29 fact members it's based off these original items that we gave in the yellow $50 so full another addition yeah so we're already projecting that we're going to get 52,000 back or the 26,000 there and the 26,000 there so already we already are counting on the fact that we're getting 52,000 so moving it up to 100 each would give us an extra 52 okay well that's I mean all right so then and the Middle School athletics uh Sports up to 100 that's another 5,000 then I assume yeah right so now we're at 57,000 I think we have average teacher at 68 so yeah I mean I don't know that's I hate to say that but I mean I don't speaking from a standpoint of I completely understand what the is saying was another piece of me here on the taxpayer side looking at this saying wait a second you told us you're going to cut 28 positions we go and save a position this is where the transparency piece comes in of Def finding money no we increase Fe so to me I think we should stick to our guns on what we said when we looked out all the cuts and through the ex executive sessions with the unions and blah blah blah and stick to exactly what we said 1% if this is what we get from 1% these are the positions that's happening these are the increases in fees we do which would have been that 50 bucks so 50 bucks for a high school sports the only thing I didn't really understand was the middle school one because I had Middle School had 13,5 350 over the 1% and not 9,000 so we need r that one I guess a little bit but like my pieces is we kind of got to hey if we got 0% if we got 1% we got 4% from the town this is what we were looking to do I think we stick to the exact same plan we've had that plan in place in terms of what we're doing this is what we're Runing with we told you what we were doing that's how we're going to stick to it and and then when it all comes down in the town meeting in two weeks or whatever it is everyone know exactly what they said they were going to do and we did it good he save me 100 bucks makes sense I mean sitting here for the past nine years I and and I know Nick and Justine you guys knew the other three we've we've been trying to reduce or eliminate fees for years right and as much as you know Nick so eloquently stated it's maybe maybe a position maybe two but there's so many positions what position takes that like how do we even just and I would love to be able the save positions I mean I don't pay the transportation fee I pay two sports fees unfortunately you know with my daughter's academic record I'll be paying a lot of National Honor Society fees next year um I paid I paid a lot of extra fees this year so I mean it's unstuck between you know what denz and and Nick both just said you know do we raise the fees to save a position and just it's it's a tough pill to swallow because everyone's budget is is taxed already you know and and the last thing I would want is $100 could tax somebody out of participating or and I can already hear when the bus fee goes up 123 is going to be more traffic I it happens first of every school year um and you have that many less kids because $100 could tax the budget away from transportation um yeah I actually changed um I'm GNA agree with you guys no Nick what you said makes a lot of sense actually like we we said this we said this is what's gonna happen we kind of got to stick to the G on now I I I actually so uh I guess would be more for Christine So Christine we had originally $3,350 if we increase middle school fees so I don't know if it's in between 50 and 100 that we're need to do but like that 9,000 I understand what you're saying a second so that extra amount was when Aaron and myself were going um through the Middle School sports we were saving money on other um subscriptions and different things that was the extra so it had that was just added but it wasn't with be no okay so so the fee money we basically cut additional things at the middle school sports level to get to that 13 that original 13 yeah sorry okay so then then then if we did a $50 increase across all Athletics high school and middle school for every single sport with the one exception of hockey because we know expensive it is that would go to an extra $100 we would get to the numbers that we said we would if you Goot at 1% that's cor which is $37,500 in the middle middle and high school clubs I'm having trouble understanding exactly what we're saying here so we're saying we chargeing 50 now and there a $200 now and we're saying no cap with 50 yeah so the rate stays the same um it just it's have to pay for every C and then that number we had originally at $116,000 that's with a cap of $200 cap this number would now be uh 168 plus all the additional money so that what I'm saying is with the clubs we're not doing what we said we're actually we're making more money with the clubs we're getting rid of the cap in it's very variable because it's hard to track all um we pretty much just backed into all the kids that are at cap off of spreadsheets from the middle of school and um high school and if they were to pay 50 for their Max this was extra money that we would then get to then offset the budget on the club seed so Middle School drama is a great example of this because um by the time Middle School drama rolls around it's like late winter early spring kids have nine times out of 10 already reach their Max be year and we have like a 100 kids that do Middle School drama so that's something that we're not really bringing in any be on that particular area um it's it is harder to it's harder to know what kids are going to sign up more variable said so I guess from my standpoint then is we we were going to offset $116,000 worth with a 1% increase the closest number we get to that would be doing a $50 no cap fee $144,000 and like you said it is variable so it's we set 16 but [Music] as of that day yes I agree totally agree so I guess for a club standpoint again going back to what we did I would be more inclined to say No Cap but it's $50 every Club you that gets us a number that you're going to have flexibility within anybody you know REM all the remove the that's what we did what what do sports activities what is the current cap is it just on clubs or start sports right we remove that last year yes so it's just clubs that have a c so now what we're going to do is we're removing the C for as well that's right so it's almost like the first step that we took this sport yeah okay anything else what about Transportation that's next same sheeter so the motion would be to increase all high school and middle school athletic fees by $50 per Sport with no cap with the exception of hockey which would be increased $100 and remove the cap from all clubs at the middle school and high school levels uh and charge $50 per Club R and Middle School wrestling is going to $200 and Middle School cross country is going to 175 right correct correct because yes that still be a $50 increase so we didn't for transportation motion second I think an easy way to put it is a $50 increase for high school and middle school sports hockey 100 across the board hockey 100 clubs we're removing the cap each Club you're a part of at the middle school or High School level is $50 Y and mid school wrestling is 200 and cross country is 175 that's correct that's the motion any made the motion I made the motion second all those in favor okay I'm going to be a no are you a no I'm no sorry1 sorry I didn't see okay curiosity I don't want to raise I just all right it's just a called a morality Clause I just don't want to read I get it I was just curious something just that's princi I don't want do I guess that's what people want so here we are all right discussion board on Transportation please you said 50 bucks make it bucks yeah at 50 we said what we're going to do with BL or sense it's going to be $26,000 in transportation fees which will require a $50 increase across all buses and do we do we look at we look at allation yes it's an $83,000 saving um because you're losing 130 that we bring in we to bring sixth graders here so it's not as much of a savings but it would definitely create a lot more traffic than chaos so so hard to believe unable well that would go against what we just talked about with splitting up families because if you're have sixth grader and eighth grader at the same house and you don't let the eighth grade run the bus is kind of ridiculous well you can almost guarantee the sixth grade is not going to pay the fee either I bother if you have to bring frankly over well that would be a six grade if we that point yeah I mean I just think B BOS in general to me again theity Clause I guess is absolutely insane when you're fing an atic program to get on their you I mean like at the end of the day if you're going to tell me hey you got to pick one or the other I'm gon to pick you got to go to school on your on your bus and Athletics is going to be paid atic play you know so I wouldn't get into putting buses I think we just did exactly how we've done it increased the fee by 50 bucks and here we go again not sing an old man but I mean I didn't pay any fees when I went to school I'm just saying this is did you walk upill I took my dinosaur the stone took my T-rex this is the most depressing meeting oh wait here we go we got your reading program I forgot that should go back to that moment all right so Transportation $50 so moved so second second those in favor [Music] anyone see I asked this time Dan thank you for that you're welcome right JCS principal search and selection of committee Representatives yes so uh Dr Marcus is uh moving on to his next step in in his career as such we need to hire a principal for JCS we're looking for a representative stakeholder Group which uh would also include school committee membership um the application uh excuse me the posting to the position went out on April 12th it's going to remain open through tomorrow uh end of business we're looking to put together a team to start to review the uh applications schedule interviews the first week in May then schedule finalist interviews site visits Community forums like that May 15 16th area forward a recommendation to to Jen uh by the close of that week and then hopefully um get a as a from the committee on the meeting on May 23rd we have applicants right now we have 15 cool any internal is it the same is it the same process for internal like they just go to the no internal C okay so tonight you're looking for somebody to on the school committee on the committee membership would be terrific you we are just volunteering you for every Sheed you have Littles good doesn't make sense for me or Dan not be here next time yeah yeah all right on that note we have other visit us um I just want to mention to the committee that we have been invited um or requested to attend the finance committee meeting on Monday night to present our 1% budget to the committee um Christine is working on that recommendation um it is I I I'll be honest I'm not really sure what else we can present so I gu I'm confused haven't we done this I know right like what are we doing and so I mean you say this is what perhaps um and I've shared a lot of that with you guys already um perhaps so in that Spirit um 42 staff members will be getting letters tomorrow um 29 of them are um cuts like actual elimination of positions but because of the way that um the whole process works some of those letters will be transfer letters some of them are um bumping bumping yes so like transfers you're going to be moving here um some people we have like long-term Subs that I have a one-year contract those letters will go out at the same time tomorrow um we've literally spent the entire week going over and quadruple checking that we're doing this correctly and that the right people are getting how do people already know they're getting cut um in some cases principls may have had conversation with somebody just say hey I just want to give you a heads up um but official letters are going out tomorrow across the district all the principl have everything I've done a few already said I know my position been well and I think there are definitely some people that have are are looking at the writing on the wall as well right so that they understand we've been very clear about the fact that we're trying to keep Cuts away from um classrooms especially Elementary classrooms so um if you are in a position that is you know a little bit more so 29s of that so the total number is 29 production in staff yes what's the 42 number so that really means people who um are a senior staff member the position they're in is no longer going to be there but they're being transferred to somewhere else um and then also there are some staff members that are going to be getting um a reduction in um full-time status so they may be going from a 1.0 down to A8 or A6 based on their role in the budget process so the 42 is just just to positions with 20 yes because it's very it's there's so much movement so I do have a question M speaking a little bit if we have a non-renewal for whatever say it's I don't I can't even do we have positions we still need to have filled that potentially can't be filled by those who are being reduced for example if we have an English teacher at the high school that resigns but we don't have any of those positions at the high school we may need to hire someone yes so we still have to be active in the job search potentially even though right so for example um we have a school psychologist that is retiring at the end of this year we do not have anyone else in the district that is qualified to be a school psychologist so we will go out and post to that position um we have um The Brick classroom at at JCS that we need a special educator who's qualified to fill that role so we will still be posting for a few positions they are not new positions they are simply positions that have been vacated for for one reason or another that we need to find a qualified not related to the budget correct corre you got to look at it not in terms of people in terms actual positions titles yes so 29 positions correct have beened so can I ask I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you to repeat this because I'm my little ke bra is not threat it's all around it so first of all there shot3 we out yeah you said 42 there's 44 I must have miscounted but I'm signing a million letters today I apologize so um and looks like seven of them are reductions in hours which I assume is FTE change yep FTE change y so that leaves 37 so 29 people 29 positions are getting eliminated yes the other seven are are what eight so when you look so um if you look at the First Column here you see um the first two teachers there those are reduction in force yeah those are people that do not have seniority to bump someone else they they are not coming back um but then if you look the the position right underneath that that says the position is eliminated so the position is gone but that person has enough seniority to be able to go into one of these other positions and and and it's it's extremely complicated and that's why we've tried we've literally looked at these positions you mean at the end of the day Pam and I were going through the list again let double check at we did this PR um the FTE change are those people that are maybe at a 1.0 and going down um okay so we're and then uh so if you go to the lgn um box all right so I think Nick Nick actually maybe just said this um so it's not people it's positions cor so we're not actually one of those grade five feates is going to be filled by the reading inters yes all right so maybe the then the right way to look at this movie is not to um not to show us the people but just show us the positions so it's 29 positions are eliminated right yes 29 positions 29 positions are eliminated um 29 this the problem because if you count are this Sheet's confusing I think for this reason yeah there's only 12 positions on here that says position limited correct correct and and so it's extremely complicated because the other version of this has people's names here right right and so when you see that it's a little bit easier to understand because of the way the contract works the way seniority and professional teacher status work um but so if you look at the middle school like these are position so the bottom one right there that's position eliminated but that person is not able to come back in any other world whereas the position right above it is position eliminated but that person has the seniority to come back to it's very this is my concern and I'll be completely honest with you this is going to end up because it's public information someone's going to look at this and have no idea what the hell's going on and then you can make assumptions that you said you eliminated 20 positions there's only there's only I'm planning on doing um not tomorrow um but in my newsletter to families next week is is walking through the positions that we have liit and that will be done for families I will not be putting staff names there but I will be saying we eliminated these four positions we eliminated this program we eliminated this and I think it's also important to include there those not names hypothetic I'm just making this thing up so I'm not to freak out if we cut a social studies teacher at the high school that role could be filled from somewhere else in the district that position is gone that person however because of the NTA then can move and bump the lowest person at the middle school level if they're certified obviously and retirements so someone could fill a retirement position even though we eliminated a job correct person may not get eliminated so so 29 positions are getting eliminated not necessarily 29 people should be it should be less than 29 people I think right might yes because there'll be some retirements yes yes so and like for example we had a resignation at the high school in a department that we were going to eliminate a teacher so therefore we didn't have to eliminate a teacher because somebody resigned and is very important as well because this always gets blown out 29 positions the are admin the are custodial the are specialist they are some classroom teachers it is spread as best as we possibly could across the board that made the most sense we didn't just pick grade five and say that's a great one to cut we're cutting it simply because from a class siiz standpoint hey it made more sense to cut the grade five teacher because there's less kids in that class next year than it would be to cut the third grade teacher we did our complete best in terms of trying to make this one as Fair as possible and onea and the most important to try to keep it as redu as least impactful to our students as we possibly can and I think it's also important to note that 29 position cuts for the schools is is devastating this is a huge this is a huge amount of staff these are positions that are needed these are positions that provide services to students they provide support to classroom teachers um and they're B we will we will see the impact of this moving forward I don't want the community to think we had 29 positions that were just extra and we could cut it took a lot of time a lot of energy a lot of really crappy conversations to get to this point but nothing about this feels good at all so can we see this um a little a little differently so can we see the 29 POS the 29 positions that are eliminated the 29 positions we will no longer have and then separately the number of people number that are getting you know laid off as well because I think kind both yeah I'm sorry it's a lot of semantics and um right and I actually I actually um in a discussion with Paul yday I was I was saying you know here I'm looking at the sheet we have like 40 44 people cut are you know we're losing 44 positions but not no just changes yeah I think is the safe thing to say and some of them like the seven reduction in hours that's definitely it's a hit to those people about that but but the 29 positions eliminated is the actual elimination of that position will no longer be at nor Public Schools okay and I'll actually Den when I share that with you guys I'll actually include the reductions as well so if it's um a 1.0 I'll say we're losing four of this Ro because those are those are losses then this is me being picky but when we say coach we like maybe just clarify that because I think people are G think so we just put on there whether it's career coach or curric coach so my other question kind of stlying back to say a non-renewal position do we have any non-renewals that were also a position eliminated like not like double dipping but like say for example I'm just gonna Eck on it because it's easy say we have like a non-renewal guidance position and we were going to eliminate it guys like we're not it's not like a double savings right like no so um there so someone c um so non non-renewals are um when we let staff go because it's not a fit um there will be cases of that where we're saying okay this was not a fit that person we're going to move on but we're not going to backfill it yes we do have a few of those do we have any non-renewals that where we are backfilling and could any of these 29 members take those positions yes potentially okay and I also think we're we might have one or two more retirements between the end of the year just from conversations that I'm having with staff so there's also the potential that somebody May able to be able to come be called back because one of their colleagues retired how does that work like do we have a certain time frame that we can recall them 18 months we're actually required to recall them you so months that's only if there's lot of work I mean we're required to offer them the position within 18 months sometimes people take us up on it and sometimes I mean typically it's not months down AOW that we're beond so thinking ahead and we all know what's going on with the budget and I'm not going to get into it do we have a list say there is an influx of money due to what the taxpayers say in the next few months do you have like a list of priorities of those 29 positions to bring back yes so um when we last met we T we talked about the positions and they kind kind of went down from yes they went down the ti so we'll do the opposite we'll start at the bottom and work our way back like my thought you know if we're looking at like a Dean position not a priority in my opinion I would rather have a classroom teacher back not a Dean like I just want to make sure we're on kind of that and it also will greatly depend Dan on when we were to get any money right so like if we're not going to get money until November it's a different conversation about what makes sense at that time um I think that's another huge piece that fincom we need to make sure we stress that maybe again on Monday whatever day we're meeting with them because the override is all well and good the override happens in May June whatever July still going to hurt us we still have already made those cuts if people are already going to be probably looking for jobs because they their other one that like if that the longer we extend that vote whether it be September October November if we start the year with down 29% positions and that override goes through let's just hypothetically say goes through on you know October 30th November 1st we have the ability to rehire we I have no idea where you're finding don't forget if if it passes on whatever October 1st we have to actually then as a town go out and collect that tax too it's it's not a l of money we have sitting there waiting so it's a year I mean it's a year without a doubt and I think that's needs to be stressed as well that like these positions aren't just going to match back they're gone they gone that's it I think you almost have to look at it as almost like next year's budget yes because I mean if there's you know if we get some of these positions we could grab in the middle of the year you know say it's I don't even know uh a special math interventionist if we get a math interventionist yeah let's get I just even the best case scenario the past override it's the money next year and I think the other ke piece that I kind of got blasted for a little bit was even with an override unless if it's that that more that bigger one we are still losing positions we are not back to level services with the $4 million override well any other party but it's not going to be the the Saving Grace our positions are gone either way because our budget closes before corre even the our books are closed June 30 and also um our staff is able to collect unemployment the day after school ends so all of our schools are getting out June 13th except for JCS which gets out June 14th um and w're able to collect that very next day and and so that's an expense to the town so when I guess maybe I'm not you to know about it when can a teacher collect gr like for example if I'm a teacher that gets laid off and then I sign contract to start the next school year in say Mansfield they can theoretically collect until they're employed again yes even though they may have signed the contract pretty much everybody does that because I you be kind of D I mean I'll be honest I got laid out three years in a row um you I got call back before the end of the school year ever since time but I don't know how we do that this year um but we will be posting for a few positions like those ones that I talked about um we cut two out of the three month interventionists um they are all you know we're going to repost one of those three positions we're going post one of them but in order to make it equable people will have to for it and so those of things and this is me being ncky but I think from from you and central office down the principles really need to hone in when do not say a word until the papers are out because I've already gotten a few emails and calls being like my position was eliminated why like I have no idea what you're talking about so like principles I don't want to blame anyone but like who's ever said these to people like give you a school by school but like it needs to be a little bit more like everyone gets their stuff on this day if you don't and you're offet you're good I don't think that's nitpicky at all I think how it should be principles last terrible last year because of I think that's honestly J I think that's a conversation you have to have absolutely yes yeah because 100% agree you know we have to slap in the face of central office as well yeah we've gone through this entire process trying to figure out how to make this work and we don't want to be doing this and then for them to kind of just be like oh well sorry your position is getting cut there no formal announcement we saw last year number of the teachers went told the kids kids are crying I mean I mean honestly I think it comes from a place of wanting to be respectful and kind and understanding that this is someone's livelihood there's a time for that on Friday at 4 o' right unfortunately people talk once you say something it just goes like unbelievable sadly a sad day um so yes so I will um that's it so can we just circle back to um finance committee meeting govern available Monday didn't realize they wanted us to come yet again that's why volunteered volunteered before is this something that we need to do like what is the so we were told that we were scheduled for Monday night on Tuesday Morning um and asked to provide they want us to present our 1% budget and they want us to provide um a line sideline salary report um for every single n Norton employee our the current salary and the projected salary for next year that is that is not the fincom asking it's one one person on the one person we in the email I received which I forwarded to you I was told that that's is what the fincom is asking for um apparently that's what they get from the town side the town side has access to the software to be able to do that because all of our payroll goes through the town hall we do not have that same software so it is literally a cut and paste process from our Bud from our salary book which is extremely like it's it's not just a data them it's going to take Christine and Courtney a huge amount of time for them to pull this information I I think that you guys have done enough work over the last few months that the answer is just no right now the answer is no and I'm sorry asked to provide it tomorrow and I said we simply cannot do that I said I said with the you know with the week that we've had um you know with the short timeline and the week that we've had trying to figure out all of these layoffs we we just don't have the capacity to respectfully say we can do we can get it for you from Monday the 1% I do not say we can get the salaries by Monday I'm confused on what that why why do they want to see the salaries they want to see it they want to see that here's all the salaries here's what we paid this year here's the increase and what's the percentage increase that's why they want to see it% have no they want to see they're not going to see names go however this isn't the first time we've done this exercise we've done this before for the same person asking this isn't the first time you can't you can blame on one person because I think we all know who the person is the fin is asking for it finom he should reest it was mik UN not I'm sure my my point is we did not have the capacity this week to turn around anything like that that's fine and you know ultimately I report to the five of you so if the five of you are asking me to provide something we are more than happy to do no whatever we're not we just did not have I just don't have we don't have the capacity that's answer your no you are dealing with 29 I mean 42 letters that are me sent out 44 44 letters tomorrow like what this is insan so I guess my my thoughts on this are this the line by line salary request has nothing to do with the 1% budget presentation if down the road they would like to see that sure let's get through budget season let's get to town meeting let's get to the through the 1% and then if they choose to meet again over the summer or wait till the fall we'll give it to the that where where we have five buildings under your purview with 400 something employees that you have to manage daily you don't have the time for this one request respectfully never mind what they're going to go through tomor they not GNA go through enough we're done jumping through boops I'm sorry the thing is to me the request isn't a bad one I I you want to see it why didn't you ask this in February 1 why didn't you say hey all a sudden it's needed now it's needed we need to we need to jump through hoops to try to get that done and take away from one what going to be a crazy day tomorrow and then two obviously coming off a vacation and everything else like to me it's just insane that you're going to want this isn't P 15 people here and we can quickly run the numbers you know if it's a huge long drwn process you can't give us four business days expect ah hand so need to say I will not be there Monday because it's probably smart for me not to be there um we don't need a PL correct we do not we are we are just presenting be there haven't we already just to review this didn't we already present a 1% budget to them yes and like so what Christine has been doing this week in addition to doing everything that I need her to help me with and everything again and that's what I just mened five jobs this is an extra piece of the job that we can't accommodate right now so when we give you guys our line by line budget you know you know all those pieces right so Christine is in the process of creating that 1% budget line by line that we that we share with you is and ultimately that is what we will present to them on Monday night but I don't know how much else we can present IA in terms of tell tell them we will absolutely give you the SS for them F but that's they already have information no they don't have the information no they do want to get then then know what we're going to do we're going to turn around and tell the fincom hey freom of Information Act it's going to take her 40 hours it's going to take Courtney 70 hours and other 130 or whatever 110 hours it's going to take is there all rate this how much going to cost you to get that information you know I I have to and I I emailed Mike this afternoon I and I said we just can't get this for you tomorrow morning we had bu week I do not want to be seen as combative I do not want to be seen that we're not cooperating we are to cooperate with anything however you can the scho Comm do not have the capacity in a time we give them the a fiveyear projection you have like you presented I I this is I like it the problem the problem is until you can't keep getting punched in the face at some point you got to go on offense you want to give us you want to put all these things against us we'll do it for you it's going to cost you pretty because at the end of the day we keep doing this we're gonna play nice we're goingon to play nice look what look what playing nice guys you want it we'll do it job I got you another budget thank you you're you're putting additional work in front of our already thin stretch admin staff not pulling this for you to get it you want you want this information by July one we can chip away at it you know on a Friday afternoon and do whatever sure 4 days we're not doing and that's what I was say and that's what the school committee also said ask you said okay we good we're good and I'll be so I only have one thing do anybody else have anything no um just a reminder after this lovely meeting um that the IAC basketball game is coming up a week from tomorrow 7 o'clock at the high school um sadly in the last two months we've had three parent losses so um I I guess I can go on record and saying this is the last this is the last year for I attack so um the committee would like to go out in a big way we have a lot of families to help it's been a great run um but it's just it's been hard to maintain so um tickets are on sale it's all over Facebook um the schools um the high school students went to the schools and and tried to you know get the little ones excited um so I'm hoping everyone's hoping it's a good turnout but um purchase tickets right online so a lot easier in terms and at the door and at the door I don't sell out online yeah um that's it thank you anything else from you guys motion to a journ second in fav thank you