well my hope tonight is that we can get through as much of the text as possible I'm going to call it section by section like town meeting budget and if anybody's got something they want to hold shout it out and then we'll go back on the holds and then we'll move on to the next section okay okay so what my hope would be to get a third draft together sometime in uh sometime between the i' get it to you sometime between the 15th and the 20th of September and then we'd meet sometime between the 20th and the the next week and then we have to come up with a strategy for um having a stakeholders meeting or an all board's meeting or whatever you think would be the most appropriate thing to do right we got to go public at some point sounds like a plan yeah there's plenty of time when do you think your town meeting will be in 2025 uh usually they're in the Spring Town meetings in May okay the my wife retired three weeks ago and that's why we went on this trip and trying to figure out what we can do in the spring I've got four Town meetings I have to go to I know for sure so yeah we're just I'm just focused on the October town meeting we've got a lot riding there too oh wow yeah our NBTA communities actually uh that's going in the fall so that's running concurrent with this but it's got to be uh much it's a shorter time frame but you know the years is a much more complicated procedurally to do hopefully won't be anywhere as controversial hopefully we won't have a controversial NBTA communities proposal I just got invited to submit an anus Brie for Mass Housing Partnership um I I totally agree with NBTA and the program but I learned I learned yesterday that one of my towns is being celed by its Regional planning agency to take the invasive route and mean fighting it no they're not fighting it they're they're basically circumventing it by doing what meet their requirements but not make it feasible yeah exactly and this is not something that they're dreaming up on their own this is a one of the 13 Regional planning agencies in the Commonwealth telling them to do this well well our regional planning agency's helping us with this so we're uh in fact have a draft uh the planning board will this same group is meeting uh on the NBTA communities and next Tuesday at planning board we'll be going over the first of the draft first draft and then whether we do it next week or in two weeks we have to the planning board will vote to transmit the language to the town warrant language and the zoning and the and the parles yeah keep me Loop so that I have it when it's adopted if it's adopted and I can just fold it right in right yeah we have to keep we're we're keeping that in mind that what we put out what gets adopted in the fall will be reorganized in the spring yeah well just given any late comers time to join here so I guess I'll call out call planning board to order here do you got a COR yep okay can we share screen and I'll put it up yes everybody on board okay so um it's it's voluminous when I compare it to your old one but I think there's just a lot of strikeouts and such in here that disappear I'm not prepared to clean draft yet but that'll be the next thing I do so section one without further Ado not a lot of um not a lot of shouldn't be a lot of problems here this um un overcrowding and undue concentration of population has caused some problems in some towns with standing fights people people claim that density and overcrowding is an injury protected under the zoning act or and they they if if this is in your uh up upfront purpose Clause they use that to butress their argument that you're too dense or your project is too dense or that it's going to overcrowd my interpretation of State case law is that you only get to argue this if it's a zoning violation that creates the density or overcrowding otherwise town meeting has made a choice right Brook line can't be sued for overcrowding and undo concentration if they decide to have a house lot 5,000 square feet that's what the voters chose but if you're violating zoning somehow in order to yeah that makes sense right to increase right so I don't know if you want to leave that it is you know in my in my line of work having done two dozen standing fights in the last two and a half years it's it's annoying it's very annoying and remember the town is always getting hauled into these things it may not be a lot of money because you usually let the successful permit te carry the load but it's still some money even if your Town Council is just showing up on an occasional basis and and rooting for the board right I it up to you but um otherwise this is pretty much what you have [Music] today I've amended a couple of things here and [Music] there this initiation of amendment stuff is what you have today and that's about it anybody want to hold anything nope okay districts we didn't create any new ones we didn't um delete any old ones as far as I can remember [Music] okay I've just added a new section that explains that there's certain overlay districts the marijuana is new right uh years yeah okay do I have the latest version of that I think I gave it to you okay I just don't remember yeah I know I there's only been one overlay District so if you had an over District you have the overlay district for cannabis correct and it's not been I don't believe laa has it been amended it has not been altered the district itself has not been the bylaws have been but the district has not oh but the bylaws have been okay but they should be reflected in the on the uh online version yeah they should but they're not they still haven't made that change no they did um because the tables are okay it's there some language that we approved at the 2020 fall town meeting that did not make it into the ecode version and actually Mark picked out one area where the sentence just end for some reason um so I found three or four I actually went line by line because the soon as I found that there was one issue I figured there had to be others and I think I found three places where the ecode bylaw is not the language of the bylaw that we approved at town meeting nor is it the update that we did in 2021 so do you have those easily emailable to me Laura yep no problem and to NE Laur so that way I can get it to Lucia so Lucia can who's our town clerk can um get it to ecode to fix it yep I would say something to save for presentation we have changed no zoning districts they are the same yes yeah we emphasize that this is a recodification we are not trying to change things on people's noses right well not too many [Music] things um you you understand my point oh no yeah but I but I I know somebody will stand up if you persist in that too strongly oh I think I can walk the line but you promise it wouldn't change anything which isn't which isn't really true it's nice if we can rely on the you know by advis of council this is no longer acceptable the Attorney General doesn't allow this anymore yes if we get legal standing there's not much they can say about it yeah I agree so this Wetland protection overlay district is well I don't know you tell me pretty rare pretty rare for me to see this in a in a town yeah it's called an overlay District but there is no map it is not on the zoning map yeah I raised that question right so it's really hard to call it an overl and and the purpose it's a district right a district but what you know we don't we protect all Wetlands the same they go through the same process whether they're in this District or not I just think I don't know I I would rather get it out of there but I know we're well that's my opinion I it just seems honorous because if if Conservation Commission determines it's in their jurisdiction you're going to have to follow now they don't have we don't have a Wetlands bylaw in the town but you know so they have to follow the butland preservation act but I would I would just rather keep things consistent well what are the odds that they're going to adopt at a town meeting a general bylaw for Wetlands it has not been good in the past so um and I don't think I don't think our conservation director is interested at this point but I don't want to speak for him yeah um he can do that although he's on his way to Portugal so he's not doing at right now so all right well we've had this conversation three or four times I'm just going to let sleeping dogs lie yeah um I think there is a provision I think it's in chapter 48 section 4 that says all districts shall be shown on the map can somebody Google that just Google mass mass general laws and then put in 40 A4 and I think that's what it says uh any zoning ordinance of bylaw which divides cities or towns into districts shall be uniform within the district for each class of kind of struers or uses committed District shown shall be District shall be shown on a zoning map in a manner sufficient for identification yeah such such map actually is part of our zoning ordinances or bylaws uh assesses of property plans may be used as the basis for zoning math if more than four P of plates are used in a zoning map and index map so yeah yeah so you may run into a [Music] um a tick at the Attorney General's office if they're looking for the map of this but they they rarely do sometimes many times districts even overlay districts are townwide and there's never a map it's it's just basically stated in the bylaw that the district is an overlay District which is townwide in nature but I [Music] suppose I suppose we might be able to get away with that with the Wetland protection overlay District just to make sure we Salvage it this isn't the place to do it it would be in the back yeah make a note was this the one that had certain locations further in the bylaw yeah it's it's delineated there's about 15 or 20 that are use legal descriptions in the bylaw but we never mapped them I I know our current conservation director had mapped them um but we haven't presented them as official M but it it would also it would also apply to anything unmapped not yet having any reason to be mapped wouldn't it wellp District fall in that category NBTA District should be mapped yeah we will this right down the road in Lakeville I had I was representing Rhino capital and one of the things they had was um they they they got a special permit under that was called the something development some some development bylaw and it was not mapped and I argued all the way up to the appeals court that it was townwide in nature and the appeals court actually ruled that the text was adopted at the 2012 town meeting but because there was no map they intended to come back and I was like what are you smoking that's never happened in 39 years of my experience and if they put it into expedited permitting it suggested that they were Expediting this not delaying it and the appeals court ruled against me so I'm I'm you know I'm aware that there's some opinion at least at the appeals court that if you don't map it it ain't a district so just giving you a warning yeah we I think we need to determine what do we want to do with that overlay district and coordinate with Conservation Commission on this or at least me and the conservation director but yeah I'd like to I need to talk to him and see what where he's at with it and then if we want changes or or Beef It Up by put it keeping it and then mapping it then we you know work with the planning board and Conservation Commission on that well I may be tempted to say in section [Music] 9.1 which I think is the district it might not it might be 9.3 oh yeah here's all the land that you've already classified I mean you could say right here in 936 the Wetland Protection District shall be considered an overlay over the town of Norton with specific locations being identified as follows that that may solve the problem now everybody knows that you have to look for wet lands is is this all that land stuff everything or is it everything you've explored so far too I don't know when this was last updated if it's ever been updated yeah my gut feeling is it's never been updated and again this is part of the problem with this District Wetlands change boundaries right yeah and I just don't know why this is here when we have Wetland permitting but you know but anyway um let's move on and Paul you can discuss with John and decide how you want to do it I think we all understand the pieces of play okay I got to go back up to the I think that was the end of section two oops all right so yeah I I think we discussed last time adding the carryover um blots split by District boundaries and um I think the thing I chose to show you was really kind of convoluted so in the first draft I'm going to put a a relatively simple provision that says you know if you go if you take the less restrictive District 30 ft into the more restrictive District you can do that by special [Music] Department thats with my note I'm just making notes here okay any holds in section two hearing [Music] none so this is really all about the use table otherwise um I've preserved your 10,000 foot and over special permit requirement and referenced it in the use table accessory uses unlike principal uses don't have to all be listed in order to be eligible because the court has said there's too many and it's too creative an adventure to think of them all so other accessory uses besides those in the table are allowed provided they meet the definition of accessory use which is set forth there in abbreviated art is for me okay [Music] um and I decided we've I think we've collectively decided not to change this this would usually include things like home occupations at this at this point but you've I think you've got those nicely identified in the use tables so I'm not going to disrupt that or suggest to steal from us from somebody for somebody else well the only thing I would suggest just to discuss it a second is that only get to five it's okay no it's it's it would come in three so home occupations would say there's by right as and by special permit two two separate subsections by is anything that doesn't have a nonresident employee a customer a client or a pupil and anything that would trip that threshold non-resident employees customers clients or pupils would require a special per I don't think I want to have a special permit for a piano teacher well we can take out the pupils but customers are clients I wouldn't want to have a special permit for a lawyer you know waiting for a client to come pick up a will once every month I don't think that should trigger it either has there has to be some common sense but if you have people coming regularly whatever that means there should there's going to be impacts on the neighborhood and in terms of to what's the principal use of the structure well assuming that it's customarily incidental and subordinate then the principal use of the structure would be the residential use yeah I don't know you want to see it I could show it to you I won't put it in I'll just send you the file I think already cover employees by special permit pretty well already yeah well like I said when I looked at it I didn't think it I wasn't hearing that this was something that was causing W problems on the street no no issue I've ever heard of okay other than me having trouble getting into uh get a cake from sweet step before he should got a new shop because there were three people in the driveway yeah K's conection has that problem that's why I just used the Box in her driveway and you gotta be able to get into the driveway I guess I take good times you must okay so you've got this other stuff here on wetlands and waterways um so I guess this just subtracts out the resource area right yes and that doesn't subtract out the buffer no it's primarily it it's the Wetland water ways okay and then we have one of these wonderful l l shap Factor by loss I didn't change yeah I noticed you gave us conkers yeah honestly I I I think it's just as if not more confusing yeah that's why I live on a rectangle [Music] yeah nobody's had an issue with it so far so okay all right good do you prefer the mgl to be mgl or M period G period L period that's correct if you're the courts don't use the M they put G period L period but BL people don't seem to get that for some reason I you so I I I don't care one way or the other I just want to be consistent like Town Council just and the uh with the Amigo special permit she used GL yeah yeah yeah that's what we all do because you're submitting your brief to a court and that's what they do so it's not blue book but that's what the courts do I keep the M I'm agnostic with regards to this after water okay nobody cares I would be hard pressed to care less I'm just going to make him consistent then with the mgl and periods are complicating things so I'll just undo them Arvest is what you have obviously the shape Factor makes me dizzy multiple buildings all what you have let's clean that up 463 yeah uh where it say section 7.1 I think it's now 8.2 but if you just want to put three Asis you know you have to go back oops didn't want to do that undo yeah I gotta find undo yeah but it's this meeting is being recorded blocking know there it is there we go no you said 6. 43 yeah L work says section 7.1 that's no longer a good reference so just ask risk it until we're final that might be the new reference that's 8.2 is then where it stands but where it stands with at the end I don't know okay I'll put 8.2 now again what you have I never end up really changing much in the dimensional stuff all right here's my baby nonconforming uses and structures so this is brand new all throughout I think did we get Nick Weighing on this ever I I haven't seen comments from him and we'd really like to get comments from Tom since this really F this is right in the Wheelhouse of the zba yeah so I typically do a training session after I we go through town meeting and you know this is about a half of it so that it it's but I maybe I should just called home yeah I think so I'll send an email and I would include Nick IA Frei in there too Building Commissioner [Music] okay I'll send I'll copy you Paul and I'll send them an email and say here's your chance great it's all brand new just give me a buz if we want to set up a call we can do that and we'll go with what they've got well this probably is in I want to say 65 or 75 times at this point nobody calls me it's not like they're yelling at me so I'm pretty confident in it you just you just have to get there are a lot of intricacies in there that only apply in certain circumstances and you just have to know when that's the case like this 100% doubling of the [Music] GFA would negate the car outs that are in one two and three so they're could you have to get everything right you have to be under 100% and one 2 or three and then that wouldn't apply to reconstruction after catastrophe or [Music] demo but once you get the hang of it it's it's pretty simple tool to [Music] use any particular questions on five we get here into a lot of things that I what did I want that say oh okay so I had this discussion yesterday with one of my other ter you know the the whole notion of [Music] um putting a arbitrary number on increases or decreases my point of view is that if it works it works and you may be eliminating some situations in which it could be better I agree and if it's not good enough don't do it especially when you're putting it on a special permit yeah I did that I agree Mark okay so that would mean that this is probably a delation because it's not going to be a limitation on [Music] parking and it probably would I can't remember if I put a general parking so what I what I usually do is I put something like that special permits for reduced requirements I I I like to make that generic I I what I prefer to say is just any parking or loading regulation can be varied by special permit yeah provided that the applicant for the special permit proves here they are um if it can be demonstrated that a modification shall not result in substantial detriment and that's anything that's um it's loading it's parking it's the size of the parking space it's the number of parking spaces it it could be whether or not the particular use is paved or unpaved I I I like the flexibility with with this provision because many times we've had a special permeter site plan inhouse with the planning board have to go to the zba because we don't have a specific authority to Grant a waiver right and that's and it's even more cumbersome when you have to make a case to the zba that you need this relief because of solo condition shape or topography it ought be it ought to be whether it's good or bad jump B and get the one board that's actually doing the review to be able to make that decision yeah just a consistent right because if you you know there are some boards out ZB out there that are real strict and others that are not but I think it just makes sense to if the planning board is the reviewing give them as much authority to be able to make the changes as much as possible right and it's um there's an old land court case from Judge kosh's days boy that goes back 30 years he ruled that you can't modify or vary requirements in simple site plan review in other words you have to have a special permit to do that but it's certainly permissible in in as with pres using a special permit as a tool so that's why this is caption special permits for modifications and if you were going to do this in the use only required site plan approval you'd have to open up a special permit public Hearing in the site plan approval process so just pointing that out signs I rarely change I think I might have caught a political sign thing here hang on can we go back to 614 yeah I think we're missing something in that off street parking requirement I think there's a fourth block that we've cut off I think I change this around a little you think there's a number four here a row in the table that's empty yeah and it should be what used to be 6.14 2C the 6.14 in my draft is residential parking requirement and then there's a table of residential off street parking requirements within it yeah and I think it is missing the four category which is all others uh do you have a page in the old bylaw you can send me to quickly I parking and loing Page yeah hang on because it's not page inated unfortunately but let me pull it up your draft it was [Music] on I have no Pages there's no page numbers in the old one or the new one in the one that I'm working off of which is the one that you given us back a few weeks ago yeah um uh let me go to view read mode and see if I can get you let's do that way hang on 614 6 mon4 was originally Pages 22 and 23 in the old byog in in the version that you sent us last oh I get it okay all right so what do you think it should say so right now there's a table with a heading and then four rows the first three rows have texed the fourth and the fourth one should be the catch all for all others where it states not less than 1.75 spaces for one bedroom not less than two for a two bedroom not less than 2.5 for a three etc etc okay so we are missing what used to be TUC in the let me check the current what was parking in the old one 7 U 4 175 d74 74 we are [Music] missing so that table was pulled [Music] from can't I find don't now am I working my mind no I think I made a table out of something that wasn't the table before Oh okay hang on I'm trying to find it we should probably you before we move on we should talk about that too so find what you're telling me and then we'll go back this is the table for residential residential parking requirements yeah all right oh here it is okay so uh we are missing that where the cursor is uh I'm not looking at the cursor I'm looking at the eode okay hang on let me jump back over to the zoom yeah so yes where your cursor is blinking there is a uh so in the ecode bylaw it is 7.4b three looks like all other multif family residential dwellings yeah for all other multi dwell other multi-dwelling residential buildings not less than 1.75 I see it that's the one we're missing um before we forget that uh let me just keep making a note to myself so I don't get screwed up here [Music] B3 okay so the stuff above that government subsidized housing number one government subsidized housing for regular uh households the first one was for low-income elderly do we really need that anymore first of all there isn't any government subsidized housing you must have adopted this in the Reagan administration because that he's the one who ended it and you know it would be I I can't imagine that this would be adop for government subsidized housing for low income elderly that's HUD 202 that's a program that still exists if you have a school that you've converted to your aunt's apartment that's something that would be low-income elderly and this low government subsidized housing for families with low and moderate income we don't have that anymore there's very little of it and so I think it would be 40b and 40b would set its own parking You could argue with them about it and deny the waiver but this is this is very Smithsonian on the other I mean if you want if you want to keep it in there you're never going to you're never going to apply it I I can I can't imagine that you would so that's I mean if it's obsolete I don't see a need to keep it yeah it's it's these two things but the so does the government subsidized housing for low income elderly is that the under the housing authorities preview perview well it it government subsidized means federal or state and okay there is still a program out there called HUD 202 and it's very commonly used to convert municipal buildings like schools uh into apartments in which you know it's the Housing Authority generally administers these these things and there's it's so it's run by or administered by the housing authority and but this other one government subsidized housing for households with lower moderate income I don't know of a single program out there that you could apply to for the subsidy being the you know if the closest thing I can think of is lip in Massachusetts is a pseudo subsidy in which the government signature constitutes a subsidy so so that you qualify under 40b but it's not a real subsidy it's an in-kind subsidy I think you can get rid of these two things I think they're just really antiquated I have no problem simplifying any parking requirements when you have a a 40b come like a multif family rental I mean don't you really end up negotiating the parking at some somewhere between 1.4 and 1.75 spaces or uh I I don't recall we had a couple a few years ago but um I I don't remember what we did how we handle that parking yeah I mean so even if you um even if you put in the bylaw multif family housing for low and moderate income households will have between 1.25 nor at least 1.25 and not more than 1.75 if I couldn't do that I'd ask you for a waiver and if you didn't give it to me I'd take it to the housing appeals committee and prove that it's uneconomic that's the game today yeah I I would just rather keep it simple all right let's move on yeah well keeping it simple means that yellow stuff's coming out is that I'm fine with it okay and then I will I will add back in the the uh thing that should be in the missing in the empty spaces there all right so then this is this there a lot of grouping here that normally isn't grouped terrible it's it's a terrible standard that we have yeah right we have funeral homes and restaurants or some grocery stores in the same category so I did notice that yeah yeah you have nurseries and colleges in the same right I mean we need to I mean this is a complete reworking and we need to tie this into uh Institute for transportation engineering which pretty regularly updates the parking and parking methodology so yeah would you like to see somebody else's that's more modern I would I I definitely would I'd they happy to rework the whole section that's fun all right I'll send you handovers and you know a couple of other places that have had recent experience with doing what you just described having a transportation specialist look at it so I like it you know where it doesn't matter so much if you have these regulations because if you've got the ability to ask for special permit to get out of it things can be [Music] forgiven so the rest of it is pretty much what you have and that's with the addition of my uh I put common driveways in here because I thought it had a nice home here and then there's my special permits for modifications signs I think I have the same thing at the end yeah sort of glitched the format here my office manager who quit about a year and a half ago was just entirely good at rearranging this I think I'm going to reach out to her and H on this on the side to do the final draft clean up okay yeah I've got the and when I move you know and add sections the format bounces around so there's the special permit for modifications you've got a lighting bylaw there's going to be a special permit here for modifications Landscaping slim showell otherwise it's what you have and there's the thing I showed you back a few meetings ago I told you I was going to leave it in there it is maybe I'd like to at least float it to the stakeholder meeting and it's and see what people think any objections no I I like having the standards in one place instead of five or six others five or six separate sections okay no objections I would just say that when we get to the stakeholder session that we uh I think you you did it the way you did it this evening is fine just emphasize this is a new thing this is why we want it now we passed page 19 I don't I don't think I added page number I'll put a note to myself page 39 yeah well see nobody reads nobody reads up to page 39 so okay that's the problem I tried to merge some of the stuff that you already had this 13 and 14 for example is what you have already the way you see sentences that are black it's not an accident it's what you have already this was just the traffic section was just reviewed by medford's in-house Transportation engineer so I feel pretty confident that that's um up to speed this is what you have already under um Aesthetics better than most right holds in section six onward so seven is special rather than General these things are particular earth materials didn't change anything other than to move the definitions to the back adult us is now is constitutional and I get to explain it to time [Music] reading yeah that's fine yeah me this was your only real regulation the thing in Black here and and that was it so everything else is added but it's all common sense conditions and some are actually required by the statute like nobody do we need to still give you that 500 or that thousand foot rule the buffer not the buffer but can't be within a th000 feet of a school or we were supposed to We were supposed to that no I there yeah I need what you need to on us to provide yes yeah and this sorry I needed to do that well I'm I'm looking for you to um verify that in my sidebar that there's a reasonable opportunity for the speech with those, foot 500 foot spacing requirements right so we probably are going to end up having to change that and then the minimum distance shall be measured in a straight line I'm going to take the letter I got from the Attorney General's office on marijuana measurement which was amended in the in the [Music] cmrs and I'm going to use what the amendment says this I know this isn't marijuana but let's just keep the measuring calculations the same yeah I think when we talked about it last time we agreed that we expect that whatever rules have in there are not feasible so we would be needing to provide you an alternate feasible thing and you would suggest that if you're at 1% nobody's gonna look at that as an easy chance to sue well you're you're already above Kingsboro and that's the model for small towns so but I need to replace that un that that the sentence there that's not yellow yeah we know that is a hole that needs to be filled by us okay that's good somebody with a protractor I probably got one upstairs all right so that's the rest of the adult what else have we got here Wireless I didn't change [Music] anything we didn't change anything I'm looking I don't see any there might be a strike out here or there but I don't think I changed I might have added something can we it's not a district it's a thing so can you go to the setback section of the wireless yes I you SK fast it there we go there it is I see yes can you flag that as a and I'll put this on I would like to do a simple revision of the language the language in the bylaw is tortured and could be interpreted to read that you need your setback from any piece of the constructed structure including like an accessory shed yeah needs to be set back by the height of the tallest structure which no wireless communication facility could be very tall so you could be needing to give the shed enough of a setback to fall 30 ft or 100 ft horizontally which it would never do yeah I don't think they fall generally anyway well it's certainly not going to fall 100 feet sideways a shed yeah the issue is we had we had one last year property is defined how structure is defined yeah so we have one last year and we basically just gave them a waiver to it so I'm going to await a rewrite is that right yes a a simple rewrite that does not change the purpose okay standing by and while I'm thinking of it is this Paul where we have the scale of the map that we give people a awayer for like every every other application well that's in uh that's in the planning so it's in site plan it's not in these okay later it could be I don't I I it's been a long time since I've looked you worked on with the wireless but not the wireless no the the map scale yeah the map yeah I don't know if there's a map scale provision there separately but not for it's for everything yeah all right I'm on solar and I don't know what to tell you so leave it alone and say we didn't change anything okay there you go is that that's just reiteration of law already so that's not that's not a real strike out let me just be sure is there a way to note that um when I go to explain it to people that just say this is already covered by Statute and we're not interested in repeating the statute we have to do it anyway we do it for any special permit okay yes I know but I could see a certain section of town going wait you're removing a noticing requirement for solar evil people I don't have a problem with leaving it in if that's the risk I mean I've taken it out 99.9 am I to paranoid no never hard I'm not too paranoid for once okay no hard not to be too paranoid yeah people are immediately suspicious as soon as you want to start stop telling them things yeah okay so I I took out the all right and then this is my warning in that we don't what the hell's going on I haven't I haven't had any bad luck with the ages of in my last five bylaws all of which I consider to be illegal but I don't know what is legal so that's makes a good there well you can argue both sides that's the good news okay all right so special residential affordable housing you know I've taken this because it's illegal right yes I was gonna do we uh yeah in the public information session I'm not sure if we want to just cover that there are some things in here we are taking out because we don't feel that they would pass legal muster and tell people we don't want to necessarily scream those and BR neon signs right now yeah right yeah I I usually prepare we just had somebody who comped with this one and didn't complain so yeah I usually prepare a two-page two-sided hand out that just says major change minor change and then it's like three columns and I'll in the third column where I'm explaining it I'll say know inconsistent with Cas law or something like that well um under one this was de uh where we talk about an existence as of October 8th we had a an appeal uh well not in an appeal but the attorney was saying like if you look right above it where we say October uh of 2003 or anytime thereafter but we don't say it under multi-unit dwellings would this be the opportunity to add that or anytime thereafter well thing struck so no no no but I mean number one is it oh yeah I mean our turn you want to add this or anytime thereafter here we want to eliminate any reference to the date okay or we want to remove any whether it means time before that date or time after that date yeah right that's pretty the attorney argued that the plain language meant that it only applied to things that exist then so this is new so it doesn't have to apply to it right so that's what you want to do um or as of you know or say October 8th and any time thereafter well if I got a parcel of land that was so it's in existence as of October 8th what [Music] about I mean I I think we might if you're just striking it's the same thing isn't this as saying or thereafter isn't that isn't that all partials it was either in existence by October 8th or thereafter that's 5050 right is that when you adopted this bylaw yes yes yeah yeah yeah was that yeah well I think it's probably an attempt to capture the effective date but I I don't think you need the day okay yeah it was a poorly executed attempt so now what it boils down to is that you're only going to get 10% of the units in a multiple unit development right okay there is the alternative for subdivision units would be chapter 48 section 9 any in uh planning board by special permit May award an increase in density or intensity of use where the applicant is providing affordable housing and other things other amenities as the statute says so you don't have that I don't think that's in your cluster where allow a density bonus but I think that's different yeah well that's I think the statute goes on to say that any density bonus has to be uh accompanied by a formula that can you know it can't be open-ended so the rest of it I think is legal here's your cluster that's a big minimum dimensional requirement huge I mean I I I would want to start at five I am fine with pumping that down I don't even understand why we would delineate it for duplexes and multif family we do this throughout our whole bylaw which this is consistent but we always anytime we change in intensify the use we increase the minimum lot size which I think is ridiculous why why does a duplex need five more Acres or why would that trigger five additional Acres if you're doing duplex development because it was designed to discourage any from single family housing exactly but I don't know if we're scoped to really go through that but I would certainly be in favor of dropping the minimum and making it a minimum for any residential use do you have residential cluster developments that contain two and three unit buildings um we actually have a couple that uh that have been discussed with us recently uh hasn't come to the planning board yet do you all know where Canon forg is and fox no no so if you're in the center rotary and you peel off at the Remax building and I think that's Mechanic Street and you go all the way maybe two miles two and a half miles on the left hand side there's a huge development called Canon Forge it was developed I lived in Manfield in the early 90s and it was already there and you can probably Google it and get some clear pictures of it it's it's 300 units and it goes up a hill it's got a common building with a swimming pool and I think it might have tennis courts but it's a mix of singles duplexes and tries and it's great I mean I think it's held its value even though it's probably close to 30 years old now but I really liked the developer um Aesthetics for example even though the duplexes and tries are bigger buildings they place them sideways to the road so that you don't see the garage doors and everything is the vegetation is now really mature go take take a drive and look at it it's really it's not that far from you no nope I like I like the idea of all the developments having the same size requirement it doesn't need to be bigger I think 5 acres is acceptable so and I think it would not be a lot size yeah it's off of casset Street in [Music] Foxboro sounds like COA Cohasset but it's cocasset Canon has two ends and there's Maloney real estate has a website with current listings and pictures um I used to cut through it every day when I was driving home from Boston and I was very impressed with it yeah all right let me get out of this so I'm going to flag that and just to have a placeholder and make a note that we want to look at Canon Forge there this you know are you building b r or a cluster this is not a cluster you know this is spraw It's nowhere near being a cluster no well that's why I said are you building Bill r or a cluster I me I think that there ought to be no lot size in this kind of a bylaw because if I want to do a condo form of ownership why would I need to draw lot lines I just draw exclusive view areas yeah and and you can create like we we've seen um u a development that was just approved again uh a modification you have a a septic system where all these units are tying into it and it's clustered that development's clustered it it it we don't call it that but that's a better example of a cluster than what this will produce I'm going to send you my flexible development model I'll just put it in a separate file and take a look at it but I think 35% open space is high I think 20 probably this is Carrot you you can't hit over the people over the with this this is got to be carrot right and we can't include Wetlands ponds as part of the original 35% minimum like why I mean because is open space defined as recreational or you know I I don't understand why it is here right right right usually usually some percentage of the open space can be used for utilities you know Wastewater systems I mean if you wanted to say active recreation in some percentage that's one thing but if it's yeah if it's just regular open space I don't know why we wouldn't include I mean you do cluster development oftentimes to protect environmentally sensitive lands why a lot of communities Do It um I actually think if we included wetlands and and waterways as part of the open space it would incentivize the developers to make sure those parts aren't in somebody's lot well that's true Yeah we actually want the open space to be tied to each individual lot and not set up by itself right because so they actually pay taxes on it instead of putting it in something that the HOA owns that nobody wants to that nobody takes responsibility for yeah I get it it does it does make sense tax-wise but it kind of defeats the purpose of providing an open space area as a community as a as a way to make the cluster reasonable that's the whole point of a cluster is so everybody doesn't have an individual yard space so much that they have a community space just repeating what units asked me to do I understand and maybe my job is to counter him a little bit take a look at what I'm going to send you I I think it's covering a lot of ground here that you're you know going back and forth on sure and then Senior Housing I did add um so this is pretty straightforward there's no formula um I again I would I I I'm tempted to say shall meet the requirements in the district with the where the blank is here think it's simpler that way [Music] right I didn't change much of your accessory apartments by well but I don't think you were happy with it I saw something on LinkedIn I think the state did the state pass a package of I haven't read through it but I saw that they I guess they're now requiring accessory units to be by right which we do already fortunately well then in baker's uh housing legislation of a couple of years ago two and a half years ago he had section on adus and he defined them so to use Baker's tool you'd have to go with the definition I think it's 900 ft or 50% of the principal structure whichever y y that's right it's yeah exactly and it's it's a it's a 50% vote of town meeting to adopt the bylaw provided that it's as of right in the principal structure and then you can also have by special permit an Adu in the in a detached uh accessory structure like a Gage or or U you know whatever else and you know it's pretty straightforward from there a lot of towns are not going in that direction because so many of them have requirements for family members only oh well that's a limiting factor yeah right and even even that gets abused you know there's stories of people d Pro prove that that Tim and I aren't cousins right that's happened you know code enforcement has had all sorts of problems with things like that all right so I'm not going to change your ad to section n flood plane is what you gave me and then Water Resource I think I'm adding overlay to some of these districts okay just because they are overlays right so the map might not say WP o but um yeah like the map is entitled wrpd but who cares I don't think that matters um the the typical boundary dispute is resolved by special permit and this is built down on D model they've come out with three evolving iterations of this this is probably like number two maybe maybe number three but it's it's all it's all what they told you to do all right so 9.3 is this wonderful Wetland protection by launch I'm going to click this skip I think I added by special permit there was a an old case called skit scit versus planning board of brain tree and in it the appeals court held that all districts must allow at least one use as of right it doesn't have to be a business use in a business district could be a residential use but the use that is allowed as of right cannot be diminus or otherwise protected by like the Dover amendment in other words you couldn't you couldn't stop it so these resource districts come mighty close to being skip violated ises and all I can do in this district is a outdoor wreck signs nature study existing homes but you know I guess I could make a case that I can do some things like additions to alterations to existing buildings and then this construction of a single family home on the Frontage lot kind of rescues you but Long As We rescued that's it okay so onward and upward this is all the direction this is your marijuana District Laura's going to send me some stuff [Music] so this was such a a a big pile of stuff I thought it was more like a special district regulation yeah but it's a it's a it's a base zoning yeah but I thought it would both of these districts have a lot of detail that I just referenced in the [Music] um in the district section just one question with regards to the marijuana bylaw yeah you spu ability and contct was that um need to say severable in one place and it's in section one already in other words all these bylaws that you've added over the course of the years whether it's wireless or you only need to say it once got it okay there question yeah just as well because the language isn't what was approved in the town meeting so yeah that's one last thing I have to give you to correct good we should still correct because this won't be live for six months nine months yeah all right so the only other thing I've got here is section 10 not a lot of fancy stuff here and again that's probably something to give to we should get rid of board of Selectmen and you know replace with select board but Tom and Nick would really be the people you know certainly need to be find izing and we we're not granting use variances that's something we don't just our our byock specifically says we do not do yeah I'm having fun trying to talk times into disregarding them this is all just repetition of statute and those are your new criteria which have worked really well for me over the years and then we get into site plan review so you might you know you well yeah 2500 that's that's a pretty good number to to to key it off I've seen stuff under 2500 that's that sucks but 2500 seems like a reasonable number I would love to I would like to put make it higher but I don't get to vote higher meaning 10,000 no I wouldn't go that high but not not in Norton but I I most homes built are over 2500 square feet so why would we penalize a you know and they only have to get a building permit why wouldn't we do something similar for why are we treating a non-residential use more strictly and it's 2500 square feet well it's only us I mean it would I whenever I hear that I say come to my Starbucks at the train station in concerete I mean the thing can't be more than 1700 square ft and it's a freaking disaster especially when the you know the train crossing is right behind it so when it's when there's a train and the track shuts the road down it's it's just even it's more laughable than it is when there's no train um okay so objectives to be met this is these are the standards by which the decision is made so I think I I stole this from somewhere in 9.5 and 9.6 so when it's in these two districts that I put in the last section on special district regulations you have to look back in making the decision to see whether it meets the objectives in 95 and 96 as and then in if it's not in one of these districts you go back to the 1 61 to 65 and those are the criteria that you would apply and then lastly there's some things before you scroll can you go to 1067 yeah oh I found the map scale oh it's in the paragraph and then it's in number two what is it 1 in equal 40 yeah got one in that top paragraph and one in number two yeah that's the Locust plan in number two yep and often times we get that at 500 feet I would put a range in or something like that for both the locus and the scale of the map the each sheet yeah this is more customarily I see this more customarily at 40 not 20 so 20 to 40 and 400 to 500 okay I had that on my list to fix that at some point so I'm using this I got sick of I think they had four decisions in a row that needed a waiver from it and I went they keep giving a waiver it shouldn't be a requirement yeah kind of like variances right you keep getting the same request for it something's wrong so now remember that you're going to a planning board public hearing even if the use is available as of right because in order to make appeals directly to court the land court has ruled they want that to have a public hearing before you get out of Dodge and the appeal provision has been changed laps I think you had I think you had something different on laps it's two years and the appeal is there 7615 yep so that gets you into L cord well actually gets you into a lot of cards but most people just got a l card a superior card uh um and then site planone review for D uses applies only to B1 B2 B3 in the use table and it's got two questions do you qualify and what reasonable regulations can we stick it with and it's got the same appeal period and the same public hearing requirement and then [Music] accommodations um the the H's office will not let me even say that this decision is made at an open meeting we've been going back up back and forth on this for like a year and a half first I said a public hearing and they said well there's nothing in the federal law that says you have to do that and I sent them 15 ordinances from around the country and said what's the problem they didn't like that and then I said all right just an open meeting but then it would be posted and they properly responded by saying well what if this is a family matter like what if you wanted an accommodation to a single family home because you had a severely disabled child why would you go spreading that news on cable television and I I I don't disagree with that but I didn't know what to do next I mean what am I supposed to say we're not going to make this decision at a meeting we're going to meet at the Dunkin Donuts so I just left it out okay and if the board wanted to hold a public hearing then they certainly could do that and I don't again I wouldn't do it if it was a child's home renovations but you know we're not talking about that here we're talking about facilities for this for people that are recovering drug or alcohol abusers I would leave the zba stuff for them to review yeah with definitions I'm always open to anyone's questions and suggestions but generally it's 20 20 pages so and you can see what it's done to the contents here it's blown it up to 150 Pages or so can I suggest they change to Common driveway the def yeah shoot um where it says but in no case shall common driveway be considered Frontage as defined by the Spy law or in the Spy law um you want do you want to take that out uh yeah I want to replace it with something else okay um so it starts with butt in no case strike the end of that sentence strike the butt in no case yep thing all the way to the end yeah and I'd like to replace it if it uh with the panel's approval um State instead provided all Lots being served by the common driveway have the required fontage prior to its construction slow down would you just send me that when you send me the marijuana stuff sure well I just want to make sure everybody is okay with it before I do say it again so I hear it again yeah provided all Lots being served by the common driveway have the required Frontage prior to its construction okay sounds good great so building a common driveway doesn't take 20 feet off your Frontage yeah which yeah we've fought that a couple of times now okay let me just add a note to myself and get your calendars out and um I do want to bring something up too on with digital electronic billboard not here but in the use table I know we're not covering the use table and certainly don't want to open that but I was looking back over it and I realized you had a question mark because there is an Omission for digital billboard in the use under the industrial use table for Village Center core it it's blank uh and there's a the reason was um and this is my fault that U when we were working on it a few years ago I didn't realize that when I um when we put the chart together we did not include digital electronic billboard so U it's it is blank but I think that it's fair to say that we would not be putting a digital you know we don't want Billboards on uh in our Village Center so if the board is okay we should recognize it as a new change but it should be no let me grab the use table I would just put it as SP like the rest of the whole every was it SP was it SP it should be I think most of the bylaw is sp you may be right put it as SP make it consistent with um is not allowed except for in the industrial Zone yeah it are we talking about difference between big billboard and digital sign this is board then no no then no no no yeah the other one is electronic messaging or something like that like messaging yeah perfect let me let me let me let me let me hang [Music] on yeah I see it's on the last page under l so what do you want me to do no in the which district Village Center Corp you you'll see you have see my question there yeah okay perfect okay wait so just talk let's talk a minute about how let form a circle and Pat ourselves on the back and and talk about the fact that we have N9 months left but this has rarely happened to me and usually I'm rushing when when is the warrant language going to be required at clerk's office planning board for public hearing we don't know yet because Pro probably be by February okay so that means we would have to have warrant ready language February 1st we'll say yeah okay which means that we're a September October November December January we're six months out so we're going to do a work let's let's I'll put a third draft together both clean and coded when we do the stakeholders meeting I want to want to use the clean one when somebody says what did you change well I have a copy of the coded one to throw at that person but I used the coded one in Stoten when I first started coding and it just made the meeting a mess so I've never done it since and it's gone much better and I just apologize for my hometown well I enjoyed working there it was wonderful um did you did you know Marine OU she was planner there forever no she's I know Norine yeah she's nice she's good she's moved on own firm now yeah I would oh sorry I was going to say if we're going to do a new revised version September stakeholders October y November nobody works in December reset in January and we're good for February I I would yeah and I think as far as the Outreach we've got so much going on before October 21st you know I think you got go early November yeah I would not want to do this until after town our our fall town meeting so it's it's early November before everybody eats turkey and stops working all right well what's today Thursday you like Thursday can we do the third draft on the 19th or the 26th of September um I don't work for me yeah I'm open to it I got to Mee night before on the 18th in Holden so give me a week to recover and let's do the 26th no objections let's do it six o'cl and then let's look ahead to October I'm traveling at the end of the month what do you like I am gone for a large portion of October all would the October session be to reset after draft three have stakeholders they would be stakeholders with draft three oh then for November okay that'll get us after town meeting in communities okay I'm gone until [Music] November I come back Sunday the 10th so want to do it the next couple of days we have a meeting on yeah 14 yeah we have meetings on we have uh that's the we month we have the 12th and the 19th so either way we're meeting twice in a week so the TW 14th yeah this would be the Outreach meeting yeah you you pick the invitees and set it up for a reasonable time because more people probably can't make six than you know if you said up for 6:45 or 7:00 it has a bigger attendance I do want to point out that as of right now I don't know what their schedule is but Thursday's probably not great because Board of Selectmen meet that night and right now I have that on the calendar for that night unless they get off schedule again well Monday's Veteran's Day so that's kind of out and then they're going to be on the stakeholders right yeah well I would think so I would just ask them how they want we're looking at early no we're looking at one of these two weeks in November but Thanksgiving is really late this year it's the 20 so you got the whole next work week to work with yeah just I wouldn't do it late in the week I would do it the 19th or the 20th yeah so you've already got a meeting posted for the 19th or or to be posted yeah it well it's scheduled yeah what we have something you know we don't know yeah so well I obviously have nothing in my calendar for any of this time so pick a day and I would schedule it for 6:45 at the earliest so that you get more people to come after work okay so we'll have to work on that but we think Thursday would be the day that works for for us not a [Music] Wednesday anything sted by me doesn't the select board has Thursday is Wednesday a quicker I'm open it any day really are we talking about the 13th or the 20th right correct either one works for me then I vote the 13th go it over with okay then 13 all right it's 6 11 I'm sorry what did I say oh never mind 113 right I'm on it okay so I've got you in for the 13th just don't forget about us in two months in between thanks well like I said I've got four to meetings in my career left to go to you Norton Wakefield and conquered so I'm really winding down I'm having fun too so I I the Sully sullenberger retirement PL is really working okay just don't just don't hit a bird when you're flying out just don't just don't come down too hard on the river that's all okay okay well we'll start to promote we'll figure out yeah um I think I have some ideas I'll send I'll send you the two pager at some point so that you can put it up on the website great if you you I've seen all kinds of strategies if you got a reporter that you think would be able to befriend us and do us a favor you can have him or her call me and I can walk him through we're doing and it's a whole lot better than the usual panic I see in Wicked Local do we'll figure it out okay so we look into a Jour or we still have more we want to look at no I think I'm I'm good I got a daughter home from uh up she's interning here with a friend of mine from Hartford UK so I got to take her out to dinner okay so we get a motion second okay hi hi everyone happy Labor Day