##VIDEO ID:B9o021X-tF8## good good evening everyone I'll call this special meeting of the Town devotion Board of adjustment to order uh Claire can you take a roll please here here here here here yes here can we please stand for the salute to the flag [Music] flag the notice requirements of the open public meeting la for this meeting have been satisfied a copy of the notice having been sent to the Asbury Park Press and the coaster and filed in the office of the Township Clerk there's an emergency uh if there is an emergency there is an emergency exit through the courtroom doors and two exits at the rear of the room no smoking is allowed board policies no new cases will be started after 9:00 p.m. no new testimony taken after 9:30 I think that will not hold for this evening though right to do it's your call we're going to do these let's go um uh all meeting will be video and audio taped and shown on the township oceans Community cable channel channel 22 on Verizon FiOS channel 77 on cable vision please turn off all your cell phones if you need to make a phone call please step outside the meeting room we begin with our continued case I aat Services LLC 1700 Highway 35 oakst block 34 Lot 12 Zone C3 Mr chaski yes good evening Mr chairman members of the board Brian shaky clear jacobe aleri and Jacobs on behalf of the applicant IAT Services uh thank you for scheduling the special meeting uh we were last here July 18th and we got through most of the testimony of Mr Vault uh regarding 1700 route3 I have had a conversation with Mr Steinberg we have three applications those applications two are for the multim message which are the LED boards and one for the static I believe we can probably streamline the other two once we get through the full testimony on 1700 but since each application is separate separate location we'll have to treat them that way so when we were last here on the 18th there were a series of questions that were asked Mr vote Mr vote did his research uh we also there was a list of exhibits that was that were requested Mr vote provided that on July 23rd in addition we did show some videos from the manufacturer of the board which was watchfire Mr vote also consulted with watchfire if a question comes up regarding something that Mr vot cannot answer which I believe he would we do have people available from watchfire by phone that we will have someone contact so that we can certainly get the information for the board so unless there's any questions of me uh we do have Mr vote tonight we have Brian inanda our traffic engineer and Andy schaer our uh planner to address the issues uh regarding each of these cases so Mr vote was certainly sworn and I we could you remain sworn in right he's been sworn in you remain under roath thanks and uh I'll just say there's a few members here tonight that weren't here for the last meeting and everyone has signed um that's testing that they viewed the uh the first hearing okay thank you Mr Fuller question for are we G to do these together no he just said okay listen he just indicated he's going to try to streamline each of the others but each each are slightly different and I get that I just don't want to be repeating this all night well you may get some repetition if he's making a case that won't go well to do I am going to try to avoid repetition and I think the EAS way to do it is to do finish 1700 which we'll have the full and complete testimony then we'll have 922 which is also a multi message board and then we have the static billboard I forget the exact address I think it's 1418 that's correct but each requires different some different variances so they have we don't have to vote on we can vote on separately I just don't see why we have to it's kind of the process so let's get rolling get too far into it and see that we're repeating stuff all night no I understand Mr yeah he's got to make a record on each one that if if it's the board's decision is appealed regardless of which way the board goes on the applications there has to be a complete record on each one so there's going to have to be some repetition and there there's no avoiding that and not it's not his choice it's it's the legal requirement the things that were submitted since the first hearing do we have those do we have to mark those or anything like that or those were a list of exhibits and what I wanted to make sure is that you had the most recent lighting studies from watchfire which I provided to clear today which bill was addressing at the uh last meeting okay so Bill you recall your testimony and uh on July 18th correct uh yes and at that time there were a series of questions by the board regarding uh several issues and let's walk through them I guess the first issue was one of the lighting intensity of the sign at uh below the sign correct and can you answer that question and ADI and advise the board what research you did in order to respond sure uh good evening um we presented um a couple of exhibits uh last hearing I believe these are exhibits four A4 it's the watchfire uh diagrams showing the lighting uh in both directions and a question came up um the the lighting levels that are shown uh at the different distances um we have a chart that basically tells you at the different viewing angles at certain distances where where we have 100 200 300 400 500 ft at the different viewing angles 0 20 40 60 and 70 we have foot candle readings those readings are directly in front of the sign as well as on the ground where the uh person is viewing the angle the billboard company when they do their lighting analysis they take a conservative approach and they trans uh transpond the lighting level that's directly even with the face of the board down to the ground so it's the worst case scenario okay so the lighting levels that I testify to will be the highest levels in complete darkness at both directly in front of the board as well as at the eye level of the driver there was also a question bill regarding the redundancy that's built in with respect to the operation of the billboard and I guess that's twofold number one would be power and number two would be the programming which is through a Broadband technology correct that's correct so could you address both of those sure so the way that the operator communicates with the board um is through a Broadband signal it's a cell phone signal so it's the most secure signal um not not easily hacked and broken into to um what happens is they push the content onto the sign through the signal it runs those eight consecutive flips over let's just say it's a month once it's loaded on the board it continues to run those eight flips until it's told to do anything differently that board it's Communications on within the panel communicate back with the operator and sends back signals through the same broadband connection and for instance it will tell it about the operations the operations of the individual dodes that are on the board the photo cell um how the board is operating um and so forth so that is the communication between the two so if there is a let's say their cell phone signal goes down okay that sign will just continue to run those ads over and over until someone has to physically if there's no signal they would physically have to go to the site and then they could hardwire into it to change it now if there's a complete power outage and the everything goes dark it will um once power comes back it will it will reboot itself it will turn on it doesn't flash it just it warms up it'll start from a black screen and it'll it'll consistently warm up to whatever the ambient lighting is of the time that it turns back on so it communicates much like your server does if you have a server at your office it communicates with your it department and you also testified at the last meeting that the intensity of the light will depend on the time of day that's correct it's all programmed in uh ahead of time what time zone where where in the country it is um it also has that photo cell uh on it for any ambient light uh shifting uh during the day time hours let's say if it's an overcast day it will automatically adjust because a a time sensitive table is not going to tell you that and I know you testified to this but you used the word uh earlier eight flips could you describe that to the board sure so there's each advertisement stays up for eight seconds so so there's eight advertisements in what they call a 64 second sorry 64 second minute okay so every eight seconds instantaneously less than a second it instantly instantaneously changes to the next advertisement and I know Mr inanda will testify to this but the change over 8 seconds will not distract drivers or people looking at correct no there and you'll hear testimony that there there's no evidence uh supporting that uh claim as well sure you can hear you can hear it was Sol it's on thank you so Bill also just to recap we were also speaking about the height of the sign and you identif ifed along uh the Northerly side or north Route 35 I should say that there were there were some distinctions with respect to uh the utilities that exist on that side of Route 35 as opposed to Southbound Route 35 correct that's correct and the height of the sign was determined in order to adjust for those utilities uh that's correct right in addition uh well one one minor item till we get to the next one uh We've indicate the board requested a landscape plan for the base of the sign or or one of the board's professionals you've indicated that you would provide that work with the engineer or planner or both in order to develop a landscape plan uh if uh the Billboards are approved that's correct the the applicant has agreed to uh satisfy any Landscaping requirements around the base of the sign as deemed necessary and also if you recall there were reports from the police department for security and you indicated you could address those security concerns at the base of the that's that's correct um I I think one of the security measures were um to protect the uh the Ladder rung the access to the sign uh the ladder rungs start uh high up you need an extension ladder to get to the first rung uh so in certain cases I I would not create a cage around the base of the of the monopole um what we could do is we can put a uh like a sheet metal cage around the Ladder rung that's up the at the upper level um and we can certainly put a light shining down I think that was another requirement from uh the police uh police department um completely up to the board and the police department um I mean we could put that on a uh like a motion sensor if it so it doesn't need to be on the whole time um you know so there there's definitely measures that we can do to accommodate the comments from uh the different departments and one of the uh last concerns the board had was uh an exhibit identifying the Billboards on Route 35 uh do you have that exhibit I I do you want me to hand out yeah you you can hand them to Claire and I believe that will be A7 Mr Steinberg I believe it's A7 is A7 Claire sorry is A7 I think we were up to A6 I just wanted to make sure those I got to go through those notes start buiness so we've marked that exhibit as A7 Bill what what is A7 depict correct uh so A7 again it's an aerial photograph um from Google Earth um that I I took down uh this week uh and what we did is we accessed the New Jersey Department um uh NJ do uh website for their outdoor advertising sign locations and permits and what we did is we indicated all of the uh permits and sign locations along the Route 35 Corridor both in the North and South directions so let me stop you there Bill what you also handed out was a list of all permits that exist on rout 35 correct that's correct so if we could Mark that list that this A8 Mr chairman we could correlate that to really there it's it's the same information I just gave it to the board in case you couldn't read the information that's on the map it's the same information I just it was just for a Clarity which is list of billboards under 35 a list of permits we'll get to that in a minute okay yeah we have some never applied never built correct that's correct all right so why don't you walk us through uh in any manner you see going south to North north to south east west however you feel uh that sure so I'll just I'll just start from from left to right at the bottom of the page um left being sorry to the to the right of the page being the southern Direction so you're traveling south on Route 35 to the left of the page traveling north on Route 35 all of the billboard permit locations Andor constructed Billboards are loc are uh designated in yellow yellow dots along the uh southbound travel Direction what I did is I highlighted or I bolded the three properties that are before you in the application so um I'll just start from the left hand side of the page we have we have a do permit for a for 2122 Route 35 South and that's a double multi message and that's uh that permits held by IAT I aat I'm sorry um it's not constructed just a permit is held for that location as we continue down we hit our current application that's 1700 Route 35 South um again that's a double multi message sign uh also by the applicant not constructed further down uh south from the our current application we have a constructed outfront um build board that's a double static and that's located at 5919 Willow Drive um but it has Frontage along uh Southbound Route 35 continue further to the South we come upon our other application before you that's 1418 uh Route 35 um that is permitted for a double multi message uh sign we will get more into that um when that application comes uh before you further to to the South uh there's an existing outfront uh double static billboard that's located at 1126 route35 continuing uh further down we come to our third application that's 922 route35 um again that permit is for a double multi message by the same applicant not constructed the last two are both by outfront um they are located at 2301 Runk 66 and 6258 uh Rune 35 um both at the very end of Rune 35 uh before The Interchange of roote 66 those are uh one is a double static and the last one is a single static then I have the same can I can I just sure could you explain to the board what out front means oh sorry that that is the owner of the billboard so it's out front uh Al front Outdoor Advertising that's their uh okay so it has nothing to do with front yard or anything it's outfront media that's there that's why I wanted that so they would understand that sure and then I replicated the permits and the locations on the Northbound side I mean I can surely go through all of those but no need you know that that that's the gist of the exhibit okay I'm just do you know how many of those existing Billboards are on separate lots are the only thing on the lot and the lot is otherwise vacant or not um well I I I do know a couple um on the north on the Northbound side um the two that are uh owned and operated by outfront that are at 1549 Route 35 those are both on what appears to be uh the only structure on the property um on the southbound side um I believe 1519 Willow Drive uh which is a double static I believe that is also the only structure on the lot uh that that might be Municipal property um 1126 new Jersey uh Route 35 South also constructed and operated by outfront um that may also be uh the only structure on the property and then as we get much further down um I believe the last two on the southbound side also constructed and operated by outfront I believe those are the only structures on the property I believe that is also Municipal property and on the Northbound side uh 1021 New Jersey Route 35 North also operated by outfront um that that may be the only structure on the property itself so yes there are there are several not a majority but there are several what what was the first one uh the first one was on the South Side I believe I can I can give you the first one on the South Side uh 1519 Willow draft okay do you know how the other um billboard compare in size to yours uh the sign faces are similar 14 foot by 48 no right there is no 1519 5919 5919 it's the third yellow Dot from the from the left so all of the sign faces are are similar to the sizes your proposing the 14 by 48 yes most of them are uh some some may be you might have a um a slightly smaller sign they might be at 10636 so 10 foot 6 foot tall by 36 foot in width so you may have a few mixed in on some of the older signs especially some of those um uh one-sided static sure I still didn't find it 15 the one under underneath the one they're proposing now 5919 Oh you talked about that one okay Willow but you got two two on 154 9 is there two there yes two right there both they're same property it's the same lot on same lot okay yeah yeah that's what confused me thank you no problem how do the heights compare overall height I don't have Heights of all of the Billboards I I did take a height of the billboard um that's closer to our 922 site um so our 922 site directly across the constructed double multi message at 1021 um that one is at 33 ft above ground level I did survey the height of that board um that is on the that's on the Northbound side the utility poles and wires are lower on that side of rout 35 on our all of our properties are on the southbound side our utility poles are considerably taller with much more utilities located on them can you remind me again what height we're putting the one this one is at a 45 foot height that's from the base to the very top of the sign that was at a 28t pole right foot bottom and then the sign was 45t is that correct the sign height is the face height is 14 ft in height made up I think they're they're looking for the top of the side sure sure if you go so go from bottom to top billk and explain what the height is of the pole the base of the side in the top of the sure this is exhibit A1 it's the site plan set that was submitted as part of the application this shows a elevation of the proposed sign in relation to the existing building so the ground elevation from the ground elevation to the very top of the sign is 45 ft then go from the base of the pole to the bottom of the sign that's the 28 ft you also have a 3 foot um apron that's below so 17 feet makes up the sign face and the apron so 283 and 14 and 14 is the actual face that's correct I got it and the sign you compared it to is 33 to where the bottom or the top the top do we have distances between the existing signs I'm looking at 1700 and 5919 we have a a distance in feet between those two I I put a scale on the plan uh down in the bottom right hand corner um I can I can give it to use as see it's it's a it's roughly one inch is 500 feet okay so if if you want me to measure off any of them I can I can I can certainly do that for you Mr M already has it just for a matter clarification oh no he doesn't have I see that there are four not constructed signs on the exhibit and they're all I aat permits and one of those apparently is not before the board yet is that correct the northernmost one that's correct okay so the according to the plan uh it it's it's basically a Google Earth um image and it has the 500 foot scale at the bottom um I don't know how accurate that is because it's not really an engineered plan but you know that that's that's what the the measurement is uh and it looks like it's I would say it's about a th000 ft something like that good eyeballing that on so you have a reduced version of the exhibit so it's actually going to be I misspoke it's going to be half an inch is 500 feet so the the full SK full scale plan is 1 inch equals 500 you have a redu scale it's half the size so half of an inch is or one inch is a th000 feet scale is always this it's not it's not to scale the plan that you're showing so you know I can't tell you wor ACC on the don't worry probably pretty close and I I think that we had asked for that at the last meeting that's why I wanted to see if if we had we wanted to know in addition to the locations we had requested distances between the existing signs sure as well so perhaps bill just re-educate me distances that do requires minimum for multi message and static Billboards sure between multi message signs so multi message to multi message on the same side of the roadway 3,000 ft from a multi message to a static sign on the same side 300 feet if they're on the other side of this highway doesn't count so the permits wouldn't have been issued unless we met that minimum standard that's correct there's there's about half there's about a dozen standards that the board has to go through to meet distance being uh one of them what does that standard take into account is there what's the reasoning behind the 3,000 ft as opposed to the 300 ft uh be to the best of my knowledge it's because the sign changes copy MH okay so there's a different ad within every eight seconds okay where the Statics do not it doesn't deal with Aesthetics it just deals with the the the driver this viewing the sign correct and our traffic engineer is here as well so U maybe he can better answer that question for you but it's that to my knowledge that that's what I believe it is yeah okay I have no further questions from Mr vult Mr chair okay anybody have any questions what's that win rated up to I'm sorry what's the win rating on those signs the uh structural drawings will be presented uh to the building department uh and all the the wind loading calculations will be uh submitted to the building department sign the seal structural uh engineer plans I I don't have that information off the top of my head but it it would it would certainly meet any uh standard uh both by the state and federal level I I have a question I know this was discussed at the last meeting but the board didn't have the Wildfire um lighting report uh at the last meeting can we just go back to that really quick um you have the the chart that has the the viewing angle and viewing distance and then the the number of foot candles at each distance um the the ordinance the lighting ordinance uh says that the light spillage onto a residential lot can't be more than 06 foot candles and it looks like that's around the somewhere between 300 and 400 feet uh according to the Chart can you just point out where that that is on the plan just so the can understand where that um kind of cut off is okay so between between the um sorry you wanted to know the lighting level um so what the the ordinance requirement is is 06 is the maximum amount of spillage onto a residental lot so I want to I would just like to see where that 006 foot candle is and if it it lands on a residential lot or if it it doesn't make it to a residential lot so like I guess basically does it comply with that section section of the ordinates and you said it's it's 6 or 06 06 06 okay so at the0 degree uh angle which is the highest intensity at 300 ft I'm at 08 right so it's somewhere between 300 and 400 I drop down to 05 and where does the 300 and 400 uh correlate to on the plan where you have the The Arc sure the 300 would be the third Arc and the 400 would be the fourth Arc and are there is that a a residential property there is that still commercial if you just if you go back to the uh cover sheet that's exhibit A1 um our tax and zoning map um show a 200 ft radius around the subject property and then I believe the T1 the transitional office residential zone is uh directly outside of the C3 um that would be on an angle um you're you're I I would say I would meet that requirement um because I am I am off angle from the zero degree so I'm going to be at again somewhere between Z and 30 we're going to put in a light mitigation board where it only has a viewing angle up to 30 degrees in each direction that was the video that I showed you last time um so again we should be uh somewhere again at between the 300 and the 400 you can see that it it it drops down to 08 and 04 at the 20 Dee Mark okay so it looks like that that lands on the uh Mavis discounts higher property which is obviously commercial correct okay thanks okay so just for clarity if you go over to the other picture you have the the degrees set up there um can you show which line because it's kind of hard to read at least from where I am um sure so so the board is shown in red and then the first Arc is 100 ft the second one is 200 the third one is 300 the fourth is 400 and the the last one the fifth one is the 500 and then we have the different viewing angles yeah the viewing angles is what I'm got so 0 20 40 our 30 cut off would be here in both directions okay you mentioned something before about I know we talked about this last time the light levels at the ground can you explain what you said before about the light levels sure ground so the lighting analysis that that they do is a conservative approach what they do is they the billboard is the only uh object that's illuminated in the night sky there's no ambient light they reduce the output in the evening it only is operates at 3% output okay so they measure the lighting as if it's a full white copy so the whole board is is lit up white but at the reduced output amount and then they take the light reading they take it directly in front of the face of the sign to be conservative watchfire takes that number whatever it is and uses the same number on the ground so 40 feet out from the sign would be the same as on the ground on the ground which in in theory it will it will be lower but just just for conservative approach they keep it at the same light level for you and again that's no ambient light so if there's any lighting from the property or Jason properties roadways uh that will tends to wash out any or overpower any light emitted from the board the the again the purpose of the board is to display a message not to illuminate the ground below any questions I just have one quick question just for the sake of accuracy um it was stated earlier maybe maybe the attorney can answer this better than you can that the U sign the third sign to be heard tonight this the one on Sunset Route 35 was a static billboard and the exhibit I thought it was multim message and the exhibit here listed as multi message so I think that has just needs clarification for are you talking about 922 922 yes 9 all of the IAT all the I aat permits yes they're all for multi message that's that but there was a statement earlier that that last one was going to be static so that's I'm just trying to get that clarified the one that we're testifying that is going to be static is 1418 1418 it's the one in the middle okay and that also says multi message correct again that states what the permit from the do okay so we're offering the application is also for multi Mage that's what's confusing me 100 I'm easily confused let me get I think I could when we get to it but I'll represent that that will be an application for static building okay okay why did they pick this location what's specific about this location that made them choose to put a want to put a sign there I mean I'm I'm the engineer I I don't pick I don't pick the locations um I I Engineer them will there be anybody able to answer that do you think tonight yeah we we'll we'll bring up a representative uh or the consultant on that but you know brief briefly state is that you know there's an analysis done of locations that would be suitable and then to determine whether it would be approvable by the NJ do so you can have a great location but it may not qualify under their standards do they take into consideration the town's approval I that is the town's approval is something that is required but it's not part of the permit process their permit process any other questions any members of the public with questions for this witness sure we should get another microphone in here does this work okay because you give your name again and Diane sermont I live at 192 ois Road um I know you talked about how many or how high the existing digital billboard is I'm wondering if there are any other 45t high structures along Route 35 um I believe there are um I testify that the one sign that we do have measured uh surveyed is at 33 feet um there are other boards that are appear to be higher than that existing beer I'm sorry I maybe it wasn't clear enough any structures uh not specifically Billboards are there any other structures 35 buildings that are 45 ft High most of the buildings along Route 35 are one and two story structures I I believe there there are handful of three-story buildings I I believe the the white chart um realy building is a three story building um so yes you you may have a handful of structures that are that are close to the 45 would any of them be within the 25t setback I mean that that I wouldn't know okay my other question for you is um and it might be handy if I could see the um the Google Earth sure um my question is about trees so when I drove by the site or when I looked at it myself uh it can you just oh I see it there it's in Red so there's a nice l trees there to the south side of the property between that and orch is that Orchard Tree Plaza right Bel W it I think the plaza to the left the left of theed of your property to the left okay yeah so do are you know flooding has been a big concern an Ocean Township there's been flooding along over 35 do you anticipate that any of those trees will need to be removed uh no we don't intend to remove any trees okay so the sign's up above the trees correct so what happens when the trees grow um well trees if they interfere with the sign uh they will be trimmed or pruned okay um and I'm also curious about last time you testified that you were going to be drilling a 4 foot wide and 24t deep hole for the stanson and I'm just wondering how if there's any evidence of how that would impact the health of the adjacent trees um we it's I mean it's it's a augur Hole uh that gets uh drilled out um and the basically the the structural steel column slides in and it gets filled with concrete um it's very minimal disturbance it's only in that uh diameter of the augur okay but we don't have any guarantee that it wouldn't cut the roots on the existing trees damage those existing trees um there's really that I know on this photo there is a tree shown in the front I don't believe that tree is there anymore I think that's an older photo this photo is you know they're usually a few years behind Okay that's all for this one thank you thank you any other questions from the public come on up if you could just please tell us your name and your address uh John damay 1633 Melville Street how are you good how are you good um I just have a question for the permits so I have list of permits from do that's the current list that they have on their website looks like there's 20 one Billboards currently in Route 35 for the permit for 1700 what's the permit number having trouble for 1700 it's 77495 okay I have the right one make sure I'm looking at the right information okay so that particular location is um directly across there's another existing billboard which you referenced the state requirement doesn't matter how far a port they are it's if it's on the opposite side of the roadway ocean Township's ordinance doesn't necessarily reference that um the the other one is only 260 ft north of of Tage Avenue which is here and the proposed billboard is here so you have the other billboard that's already there identifi uh sure what what was the permit number so that one is just North of toage on the Northbound side do you have the permit number or uh yeah that one is it's said 77 58174 58174 sure that's a double static right so that's directly across from the billboard on Route 35 that you're proposing almost identical or just slightly it would be to the north it's probably 5T according to the 200 ft north of town the one that you're proposing is directly the location the location of this sign is 200 feet is that are you reading the the description on the do sure okay so the do has a little map that goes along with the permit and it shows the operator and whoever's looking at the permit an approxim distance of where the sign is from it's usually a street it could be a utility poll with a number on it so that is probably the what they're giving you well it's the permit list with the exact location at the signs so my concern is and to the board is they're OPP this is not the time to testify oh and you certainly will have opportunity okay now it's just questions as to his testimony okay so not questions regarding oceans ordinance because that was mentioned earlier that someone had asked how far apart they are with regard to Ocean Township rules they give you facts right okay yeah you could so so just so everybody knows this is like a court where each witness gets asked questions that's um and you could certainly ask him if he knows about the the the township ordinance and Mr Higgins May well chime in uh to that applies to lighted Billboards in general because the ordinance currently doesn't reflect that is that something you can answer I have a list of uh what it a comparison to billboard signs as a conditional use that are permitted in other zones um so what I listed on here was the max sign area the max sign height um the width and the distance to the top of the sign um those are the those that that's the information that I found in the in the Burrows code okay so I guess I'll wait till the ler period because I do have some other questions do you know directly their questions are fine you can ask them yeah I'll I'll just wait because if it's not directly related to what he's speaking about it's it's related to Ocean Township's ordinance so should I wait did you just give her permission to ask you said her questions are fine she can ask well I don't know if the applicant attorney wants to handle it now or what I don't want to confuse we have planning testimony so maybe it'll be approprate I don't want I understand how the proceeding work so I'll wait plan but and technical things that you're asking are available from this right I just wanted to make sure I was looking at the same for this particular property the same list that I was looking at making sure it matched um my concern is you know yeah yeah which is that's when we put you under not test not a question okay thank you okay and that that's for ocean Town that's corre okay and so those two signs across from each other are more than 500 ft apart or less than 500t apart according to or okay so that was my question that they're right across from each other but on the same Highway One North and one correct okay so I was just trying to clarify the distance between those two sign between the proposed sign and there's a sign that's already there that uh I do not believe is lit up that's a static sign on the other side of the street we don't have any sorry sorry time's up I'm just kidding me I'm supposed to go so okay so and then the ordinance doesn't reference whether the sign is lighted or not that was question on your chart there the rules about being lighted are there what what guideline are you following with regard to the sign being lit up as opposed to static or multim as opposed to sta so the the standards that we follow are from the out Outdoor advertising agency of America that that is a does NJ do have requirements for the for the lighting um they they do and this meets obviously theirs yes this this meets theirs and and it's this this is industry standard that the signs dim like your smartphone or your dashboard in the nighttime hours but you have no guideline for motion Township currently that we're trying to follow as was discussed before it was just the illumination levels at certain distances when you're adjacent to Residential Properties that comes from where your ordinance okay so the ordinance does articulate those Lighting in general oh Lighting in general just lighting just Lighting in general related to a build not that I see but I can I can look around on the plan a little bit more um I I don't really remember seeing anything um in particular for the billboard I was just curious how you came to be able to make a presentation with our guidelines from the township regarding a lighted sign since I think there's only one currently in the township the guidelines that that we're following is what every billboard and Outdoor Advertising uh sign follows so some municipalities have a updated ordinance for Billboards there there are a few um out there um but there are few and far between okay I appreciate your clarifications no problem thank you it's going to be on the New Jersey Turnpike versus a two you know two lane highway state highway they it has it has to front on a on a highway and there are certain requirements for it but the um the guidelines do they are they different so would you agree Route 35 in Ocean Township is different than say I95 or 195 I I'll tell you what our travic engineer is here um he can definitely better explain that to you there's different classifications of Highways M um and it it do are there different classifications of signs to match those highways is that something you can that's to my knowledge the signs are just different sizes y okay any more questions from the public okay all right Mr chairman our next witness is Brian Ina traffic consultant I'm sorry can you repeat his name Inola i n t i n d o l a Mr inand can you raise your hand do you swear the testim you're about to give is the truth and the whole truth I do can you give us your background yes uh my name is Brian tenda spelling of my last name is int indola I'm a licensed professional engineer in state New Jersey my license is current uh my career has been mostly on Municipal scale traffic engineering either on that side of the table or on this side of the table uh and I'm appointed uh in North Jersey to I think 77 boards or so in that capacity as well as doing uh private applications such as this uh in terms of the times the towns I've been in front of I think the uh the count in New Jersey I think is about 220 separate boards and or zoning boards great thank you what happens when you get old I amn't matter uh Brian what were you retain to do on behalf of IAT services with respect to the proposed billboard so you know I get paid for my professional curiosity so uh the applicant wanted to present to the board you know what are the traffic impacts uh that are known for a a variable message board or a uh an LED board in this instance or multi-age board which we're presenting and then uh conveyed to look at the research and uh based on my own experience as a traffic engineer and relate that to the board uh to uh talk about safety concerns for if it were to be constructed so that was basically my charge okay and what did you do in order to reach an opinion well first we looked at the uh Mr Voit uh plans that he submitted to the uh NJ doot as well as to this board and then uh we looked at the uh traffic characteristics of Route 35 in particular and in at 1700 uh Route 35 southbound specifically uh and then we also looked at the uh njde njd permit process that they have established uh which have it has its roots uh from the Johnson Administration to try and beautify or at least uh control Billboards in the state of Texas and that went on to uh Federal legislation if you take Federal money for your highways you have to have a billboard process so that's what brings this uh process and New Jersey has taken it further I just give you a background of why we're here and New Jersey has taken that Perman proc process further that uh this board uh has to review it uh before they can uh move forward into construction as part of that process so that's that's part of what we do uh to understand the context why we're here and Mr voy has discuss the uh the attributes the Luminosity of the board how it dims at night and then uh I would just you know strengthen that testimony that based on my research uh and with an 8C hold on the sign uh we don't see a correlation uh between uh traffic uh between crashes and billboard construction and uh we look to see if that was the case if that drives distraction in a particular Corridor uh we haven't seen it and based on the NJ doot process I don't think that I believe they don't have they have not seen it that way uh happen as well because with the 8C read uh that goes back way back to computer architecture of bits and bites to make a character and uh it takes eight bits to make a bite and that goes back to uh how it was perceived that uh the human brain processes information so that's why you're on a 64 second minute because 8 time 8 is 64 that all goes back to early computer architecture which goes back to uh how the early uh computers analog to digital worked and that's how you know they that's how when that was translated into billboard reads the 8sec read gives the message it gives time to read the message and that is in the context of minimum distraction and it seems that that 8sec read Works uh and this particular sign I believe it's like 30 foot to the bottom with uh the 14 foot height and the way it's situated is that it gives a good read for the southbound uh 35 traffic that it takes advantage of that 8C read so it is not a distraction and The Cone of vision to read it from the eye level from the driver's eye level to the sign is where the read should be and then when you get underneath the sign it doesn't distract you from making uh uh um turning movements at the local intersection in the driveways so you know we can say to the board that based on the data that's available we have not discovered any studies that indicate that there an increase in driver distraction has caused accidents due to billboard distru uh construction either static and or uh variable message signs uh and so and that is why when you um take it to the NJ doot process they look at that uh and it's not really a question of distraction in the do process because it was a if it was a distractive or impediment to traffic they wouldn't be permitted right you wouldn't put that on the road so really it's a question of you know spacing and uh you know following you know the rules that njdot has propagated over time that works for new Jersey and for you know um uh the the act the access level highways that we have so one of the questions that one of the board members had is it comparative to a Turnpike and Route 35 no they're different highways you know they're limited access highways uh I believe that the uh Turnpike has its own billboard process that is not in the AOS process in the njdot process the NJ do process is pretty fairly laid out you know it's like a me a variable message space then another variable uh not variable static you know space it's pretty well laid out and those are those those um distances are built in for the read to to read it without being distracted so it's so the safety is built into the read of the distance based on the board that's being presented presented so I think that's that's basically what I could present to the board uh and uh you know there's a nuts invols of the buffering for the stanson is it safe it should be protected things of that nature that the board will consider and the NJ do also considers that that there's enough space between the curb lane or whatever Lane uh to the uh billboard U column or ston so we haven't seen any indication that it's a detriment to the motoring public uh and I think that's what we wanted to convey to the board tonight just a few follow-ups and we'll deal with the specifics first this the top of this sign is at 45 ft from you believe that's appropriate under the circumstances based upon the location yes I mean you uh you know not you know I am the applicant traffic engineer you want to get the read that is Max maximiz for that Route 35 Carter and that height gives you your maximum read without being a distraction but as well as hitting this sweet spot where you don't have to look up too far when you're doing a read and then you get the message you're at the comfortable cone vision of 20 degrees which is a commonly held cone of vision uh to read things comfortably while you're driving whether it's a traffic light or whether it's a billboard and so um so uh the height is a function of maximizing to read which I think we've done here then going in more General the Chairman's question he used the he used Turnpike as opposed to the two lanes for Route 35 is there a distinction if there is a two-lane Highway a three lane highway or a four lane Highway uh if in the NJ do process uh the turnpike I believe has their own process for uh Billboards and I think their spacing is a little bit different uh uh overall globally aside from the turnpike example uh if it's uh an access level three or above meaning it's uh you can construct a uh have a billboard permanent that's one of the things that the DFT looks at and the access levels are determined by uh what you need to do um if you were to build um uh how they do it is that the access levels are a function of how much throughput the state wants to go through as well as manage safety for access points that's how they they come to that the access level so would that result in a distinction based upon the number of lanes on the roadway or it's well right you have so some access levels are two lane or two and two four total some are one and one and some are three or three uh all of them like say Route 35 is comparable to 46 rout three uh 66 18 so it's an that comparable types of highways in this area so it's not the the number of lanes it's the type of access that do designates correct uh and I believe you you may have spoken about this uh quickly uh in the beginning but the multi message board will not have any significant impact with regard to the traveling public correct other than conveying the message we don't see significant impact right and you've indicated that based upon your analysis and experience that there is nothing that you have seen which would indicate that a m multi message billboard would impact safety based upon crash data that may or may not be available right so yes and to answer that question what we look to see is that like for the rout 35 Carter we have available to us uh and then a state police database which is called Safety Voyager and then you know you correlate that to positions of uh multi-age signs and I for me you know I I I checked this once in a while out my own personal curiosity is there a correlation between a v a variable message Led sign billboard and a location that would indicate that that there's a higher accident rate than everything else being the same and I I don't see it I just I see it where you expect it at like an inter change or um a uh traffic light or where like two highways would merge that's where I would see those hot spots but there isn't like a hot spot in the middle of nowhere just because there's a billboard there I haven't seen that correlation and one last question one of the uh members of the public had questions about you know either side of the roadway could you address that briefly you know rather than me testify that one is up you know one is on the different side of the roadway I guess it would have to deal with distraction to the public yeah well that's the way the dot does is that it's you know it's it's um Direction blind so to speak Northbound has their permanent distance in this instance southbound has their permanent distance if they're across from each other uh that's not taken into account because uh as we've said the distance is a function of distraction for the the movement that you're going in and so if you're going if you have a double read message board uh you may be see the South southbound board at the Northbound side and vice versa but the doot process hasn't hasn't uh discerned a an uh a safety concern with that their approach all right I have no further questions for Mr inal uh Jim our ordinances don't take into or do take into account North or which direction you're going right so the take into account which direction so no but so let me say it a different way are you asking about the New Jersey Department of Transportation does not care what you know when it's on the opposite side of the road we do care in they look at what they think is the minimum safety situation as I understand and here's where I have I have a concern i' I'd like to ask questions but I don't know enough about what this gentleman is talking about to ask an intelligent question and I'm sitting here thinking and the applicant's attorney can throw something at me if he wants to but I'm thinking the board really needs to get a traffic exper expert in here to ask the questions to analyze the testimony and make the board understand what it is this gentleman is actually saying you the do doesn't care about Aesthetics they don't care about light air in open space they don't care about economies of scale in terms of the structures and so on they're basically focused on traffic safety so you had a question at the last hearing about how long the sign would be visible as you're traveling along the highway I don't think it was answered right do did did you did anybody come up with an answer do you have any idea I think that for my view I think it was about to the next intersection I think it was about 500 ft or so no time wise so time D so uh so if you're doing about 48 miles an hour right uh that's about 840 feet in 12 seconds so we have more than enough distance you know in an 8C cycle to see that I don't know if that answers your question they're not going to see all eight Cycles by any means right right you're see cycle and like maybe ay go in a quarter and that goes to the 8C read okay so if you're traveling southbound and you're just crossed over West Park Avenue um for about 12 seconds you'll have um this proposed site in your sites and on the left hand side of the road you'll be you'll see um 1711 or no sorry 58174 at the same time right and then presumably you'll also then see the next one on the left hand side of the road and then the one that's by the green leaf okay so yeah yeah so you see from both sides of the road yeah not not not that I want to volunteer information but if Mr Higgins has any questions I can clarify because it's all it's all it's all pretty straightforward uh on the read and the distance and if there isn't you know I apolog iiz I I didn't yeah convey the information that I needed to no it's I just don't understand enough about it to ask intelligent questions that's that's my concern we'll start with unintelligent questions and see if we get some [Laughter] answers we have a traffic yes we have we have Traffic Engineers um I I'm not a a traffic engineer myself but um I I'll say that I've heard billboard applications before the testimony provided is is you know very consistent with with other traffic testimony I've heard um regarding you know multi-age Billboards um I don't particularly have any any specific questions but if Jim has something that he'd like more information on you know that's fine does anybody have questions to ask now I guess I more than it's kind of a comment more than a question and I guess you can respond to it but the area where we're putting the sign on Route 35 or you're trying to put the sign there there's an In-N-Out of parking lots and shopping centers every 10 20 feet to say I just can't imagine driving down a road and looking up even for a second to look at the sign how that's not a distraction how somebody could say that's not a distraction a bird flying across my windshield is a distraction so to say that I'm driving down the road and looking up at a sign and that's not a distraction I don't know how that anybody can say that it's a distraction how big of a distraction I'm not I'm not here to say that but it's definitely a distraction I mean I'll take a stab at responding to the comment in the global definition of distraction that's all relative to the person right some people are easily distracted some people are not some people are hyperfocused but the 8C read has been studied for a long time but the Federal Highway Authority when they're going through the process of the led the initial research papers for uh variable message Billboards and the 8 seconds the 8 seconds are based on you know reading how many bits of information can you process to get off the highway to say to take the the um like uh the split for the parkway Express not express that's also been that's this 8 seconds is born of that research and that 8 seconds is what the the years of research state that that 8C read is a solid read that doesn't promote distraction to the point of safety for the bell curve of people's wave you know bandwidth of being distracted and I would argue that we're not a highway like the new no just 18 or 195 even let me but my point is you have people pulling in and off this highway every 10 or 15 ft so the fact that you're looking at the sign even for a second is cause of concern for an accident to happen and rightly so but we I believe that that 8C read takes that into account to minimize distraction and maximize the read there's a you know like anything in design there's a reasonable balance point and that 8 seconds is after years of research where it has arrived at but the 8C read doesn't take into account the height of the structure the size of the structure the fact that it's located in the front yard and that's all those things are things that I have concerns about particularly since the ordinance was set up to have a maximum 25t height and not allow the structure to be in the required front yard and those issues were concerned when the ordinance was being developed and so that that's where I and I just don't know enough about all of that to be to to advise the board and I don't know if Ben does or not it's it's something you I'm uncomfortable discussing so when was your ordinance first born I believe it was 1992 right and was there any uh prior iterations of that that were carried forward no and you have have a maximum of 25t on the height yes you it seems a little low generally but it might be that see that's what's comfortable for Ocean Township yeah and and that's that's one of the issues before the board is the height the location in the front yard uh as well as numerous other conditional use requirements that need to be met right and those are the variances that's why I I think if the board had its own traffic expert to in and look and work with you to to see you know what what's reasonable and so on I think that would be a better solution I'd be much more comfortable with that I I I respect your professional opinion but I think we made a pretty clear record you know based on okay the NJ doot data and our experience thank you was there a traffic report um submitted yeah we we wrote uh there was a traffic letter submitted with the applic submitted with the application it was dated uh March 6 I think it made into the file anybody else have questions while we look for the traffic [Music] letter do any members of the public have questions for this witness only late we have one of we have a traffic report of December 19th 23 an update that's the updated one and I believe I sent that in that's the one the Bo has dated March 6 right that was the one that was sent in probably after the application was filed by and then I sub we have one we have one of March 6 right two this is the March six one that we're testifying to towards the end of the package hi my name is marann illis I'm live at 1308 Garvin Avenue Miss illis yes okay I L L so if I understand what you're saying there's no difference in the processing time for a driver the bill sorry it's I mean I'm I'm just thinking Common Sense wise if you're dealing with the traffic situation on West Park Avenue or Sunset Avenue that there has to be a difference in processing time and attention um between that situation and a Turnpike where the the board is in a distance um does the board have the data that is going to support this the data is well the data is years of research it's available publicly uh I don't want to bring volumes of data could you direct me to something that you look at um yeah if you look at the uh FH FH wa uh research in Billboards uh and a key word would be uh 8C hold for Billboards or outdoor advertising and uh the number of bytes bytes the human brain can process comfortably get a message in a a flow of time that's basically the keywords that you look for if you want to do independent research it's all available online or publicly available I'm not making any new ground here it's based on solid research and so um I think you had a question though that the difference between the two uh like a local Street and the highway and the Turnpike but what we do know is that the 8C hold seems to be a reasonable amount of time for a billboard to hold and minimize distraction to the point that it doesn't impact safety even in a condition where there are driveways and intersection so one point two second right you'll be focused on the Turning movement and you very rare that I look at a billboard and say wow that very compelling and I don't I look away from the driving task at hand and that's part of what the 8sec hold is and then as you come to the decision point for the read the read becomes uncomfortable and you're you're out of the cone of vision to execute whatever turn you need to make because you're not looking through your sunroof to make the right turn off of Route 35 southbound you're looking forward when you need to have your eyes on the road so the data that you mentioned um it includes all types of traffic situations well if you get through enough data yes you know that by that what I mean by that that the the the original research for variable message signs uh looks to and as adopted by the NJ do like the my the ultim in primor that I have to work under is what the NJ doot says whether it's for curbs sidewalks handicap ramps striping signage all that and ultimately how long can a bill board present at one face it's an 8sec read 8 time 8 is the 64 is the flip as Mr void had said so that is you know at some points I question it when you know but to me it seems that when I looked at where there are Billboards in the middle of nowhere without any intersections I don't see any appreciable um increases in the crash rate which is available uh on safety Voyager which is a traffic tool that I use C can I just say I'm trying to clarify you you keep going back over here um you keep going back to the 8sec read are is your testimony that the 8-second read is an appro or the 8sec change is an appropriate time it's not too fast it's not too slow to cause a distraction or is your testimony that any billboard on a street doesn't cause a distraction I would say specific to the multi message billboard it's important to put it in the context of the 8sec read and the 8sec read does not cause a distraction that impact safety okay but we can't say or you can't say that any bill board onto a street to my colleague's point wouldn't necessarily cause a distraction I think I answered saying that some people are easily distractable distractable right okay so like if you drive in a an area where there's no Billboards and there's no distractions and you're you're so distracted that you can't drive then you shouldn't drive right you have a some sort of condition but if you're in the in the in the bell curve of you know Human Experience which most reasonable engineering assumptions are made then that doesn't cause a distraction for the AR typical driver or typical driver okay but logic would suggest that if you are traveling down a street that has multiple driveways and there is a new very large sign that wasn't there before that that is a new potentially added distraction and there's really no data that can prove that wrong it's just that maybe some people aren't distracted by it some people are but you're working from the assumptive that's it's a negative impact in the introdu introduction of the sign we're saying that there is no evidence to say that a billboard causes accidents so you can't prove it wrong but you also can't prove it right but that's really going down a l a logic rabbit hole that you know and we you know that's fine too we can do theorems and all that all night but exactly what I was trying to get but I but I can't rely on that as an engineer but I can rely on as empirical data and not logical arguments I have to rely on my livelihood is empirical data speaking of data so I do do you have a copy of the survey because it the logic to me sounds that 8 seconds in the billboard flip whenever 8C has more to do with advertising revenue and what the human brain can process it during one pass because that's the advantage of the multi-age billboard is how many ads can the person see see I I'd like to see the study I I keep hearing about the study but I don't see anything it's the aggregate body of information that I've read over years when I design uh a street you cannot put too many words on a uh on a sign because you can't process it right the same with the 8C hold if it was Revenue based and not safety based then they would push it to so why not 15 seconds it it could be but then it's would you want to do i' bet your client wouldn't want to do a 15-second rotation but that is not the law that is not the regulation like I said the ultimate and like I said IID like to see the study because the state police when I got a ticket for um looking at my cell phone pulling an 18 that they viewed my distraction a little different than the 8 seconds well the data is available uh the accident data is available uh from your local police you can put the Oprah request in or you can use safety Voyager the DAT I'm not the to asking for the permit you are so no I'm just saying it's widely available yeah but why is it in here well we we wrote the report and then there was no question about citing a study that okay I right now it's heay it is not heay well it is you don't have this there's a report that I submitted he's he has a written recort but does have the study in based on his he's an expert in the field that's based upon his knowledge and his research and his expertise if you're questioning that yeah I'm questioning the report he is paid by the applicant to testify and if you're questioning that um we could require somebody from um requirement we'll leave that to the planners to to bet that my testimony supported that if again we have the availability to ask our engineering department to review the testimony and give us their opinion now it may be the same but if the board feels more comfortable with that it's doable right can we arrange that to educate us I'd like to propose that we do that yeah why don't we get through testimony and see where we go maybe we need it we're still on number one here we round number two we got one more to go right three oh four I thought it was three you added one Witnesses yeah Witnesses we have one more witness oh yeah yeah ttim let the applicant get through his case right we we'll discuss where we're at and if we need I I don't know did we finish with the public on no I'm trying did you have any more questions we rudely chased you away and I apologize M okay come on up I wasn't here to ask questions from from you but now I am just repeat Joan damay 1633 Melville Street so um the LED sign which is what we're talking about here not a static sign the LED sign that changes every eight seconds that came into effect around 2005 when were LED Des signs first general practice uh we started installing them about this the technology was reliable about then and when would they be generally widely used uh um in the last I see about 10 years or so so the studies you're referring to reference only a 10e span to the not what that is not what I said well a static sign that's not moving wouldn't have the same characteristics for an 8sec situation the general research was done to see uh if you can process so much information at what point that becomes a distraction and of course once that empirical data was established then there was other studies that supplemented the LED uh Billboards uh that are now you have any more prevalent it's the attention span studies that you're referring to the 8 seconds where the bites all that part in the beginning those that part of your testimony is it necessarily directly related to billboard lighting we're watching the ads go by until at least 10 years ago I don't know the question you're referencing over years of study and your expertise that you've studied the 8C rule meaning that that's the amount of information someone can sort of ascertain when they're looking at a moving billboard the 8sec rule is the safe amount of time that I won't be distracted while driving yes we've only had the LED Bill boards for like a decade so the testimony is only really directly related to the LED billboard safety over the period of time that those boards have even been in use I understand prior to that there's studies that can say how long can I focus on that light bulb until it changes color or something like that but you have to acknowledge that we've only had the the Billboards for 10 years so how much body of evidence could be there when we've only been having them for 10 years well ultimately um I have to rely on what the state of New Jersey has done and they have staff that research this beyond what it's available to me and they feel also that the 8 seconds is you know the the balance of reading the message and driving at the same time and their eight second rule was established when LED boards became available for General use or when those when were those rules written uh those are generally uh the rules the rule I don't know the ex exact time when when the AOS changed their laws to account for LED signs but I think it's in the last 15 or 20 years I don't have the exact uh statutory change when they brought that in but that is the rule that has been in effect so the statutory rule was based on static signs then no it was um what up let me finish it is been modified clearly for Led message signs and that was when I do not know okay CU that would be the key thing that when did New Jersey decide the 8C rule was the safe thing when it comes to LED signs just curious because the body of work you referenced it sounded like we've been you know it's been a 30-year thing but really LED signs have only been in use for 10 years so there's really not a significant amount of body of evidence that would show whether it was safe or not that's just my opinion but I'm not allowed to provide testimony I'm just asking not yet not yet just just to follow up on on that her that line her question here um the uh NJ do files the is do they file the federal federal guidelines is it to a t pretty much uh sometimes the njd is more stringent because uh their experience like um with respect to other aspects and I think they are on point with what the federal guidelines are for the 8 seconds and do you know if um over the years I won't hold you to the year or anything like that but was there one was there One requirement that then got changed to eight like did it start out at five or maybe there was no rule at all and they said oh jeez we got to make something we got based on my understanding yeah because the body of research said the 8C is a a good read for any sign you know that is important that I think they just carried forward the eight seconds immediately okay it was never four five six well we we got to tweak it come up to eight or you know it's always been eight y okay thank you hello sir um your question yes I'm sorry my name is Elliot I live at 28 old f Road in O um that was practically my same question that I'm sure over the last 15 or 20 years they reviewed that 8sec um View and has that been changed correct well no that is not the case the way uh the way state law read uh functions is that there's a reauthorization every five years of any state statute and in that five years period right every 5e cycle most laws especially access laws and AOS laws are um the legislative body will ask the subject matter Experts of the NJ doot to weigh in on any changes that they would want and in doing that they also go out and seek public comment on those particular changes so every five years there's an update to reflect the science of the and the experience of whatever law it is so so that so it's not a 30-year law that's been static since they figured it out exactly so so so it's updated every five years so that means it's it it works that means that 8 second rule works as far as I know if you were looking to see but it if it didn't work it would have been changed right as far as that you could make that connection but I don't if that was specifically done but you would think that if there was a problem with the 8 seconds it would change over the 5year reauthorizations of every law so so the 8C works thank you any other questions from the public okay have two minutes Mr chairman I just want to see if I'm having one or two witnesses sure okay thank you for your time thank you very much thank you go ahead it's too hard you have eight seconds [Applause] down to one okay Andy You're Next okay can we uh gather again can you take a roll Claire again to show that we're all here yes here here here here still here here yep still here here our next witness Mr chairman will be Andy shaer our our professional plan Mr Schaefer could you raise your right hand do you uh swear swear affirm that test you're going to give will be the truth and the whole truth yes I do okay could you give us an idea of your background sure um I office is in MA Landing I've been a professional engineer oh for 40 years now and a professional planner in the state of New Jersey for 36 years I don't Venture this far north very often so it's mostly Cate in Atlantic County uh and as we were my colleagues were discussing it's so busy right now don't even come to Ocean County anymore for the most part so I'm familiar with Mr schaer it's cold up this North right here you go it is I came the other direction from Oakland okay Andy what were you retain to do on behalf of IAT services with respect to this application I was retained to look at the special reasons detriments and and benefits uh under uh uh ngac 40 Co and 55d and how they apply or not to this particular project for a billboard at 1700 State Route 35 okay and in that regard what did you review prior to uh coming here today to testify okay the submission material so I did not do any investigation on myself this will be uh a conglomerate or gathering together all the other testimony together and feeding that into the special reasons and how they apply as well as all the exhibits and site plan and so forth I reviewed that and I spent uh an enormous amount of time on Google Maps myself because I I I want to have some firsthand knowledge here of what's going on that's the the frequency the distance the type of uh neighborhood it's in but it is a very busy neighborhood with lots of driveways all the stuff we've heard both from the uh from the public and the professionals has been true it's a very busy Place uh we discussed uh during the break you know the 8C uh flow of time for a sign you're lucky if you pick up half a second of that because you're busy doing other things but they still leave an impression if you will and sometimes you may have to see it twice the next next time you're on the road but I don't think we would want to imply that people are expected to read that sign for 8 seconds the the messages are much simple simpler than that so you don't have to you can glance at it while you're managing yourself in heavy traffic okay and specifically what variances would be required for this application first of off we'll need a D1 variance to allow one multiple uses uh with the the collision repair and the billboard being on the same lot not a separate lot and then uh the billboard use in general so your ordinance section 21- 5117 uh starts out by saying the construction of a new billboard shall not be permitted in the township of ocean I know there isn't a place that I could find that they are permitted other than rebuilding or replacing one that already exists so that's the basis of the D1 and then a D6 variance for the height because it appears with this at the setback 35 ft may be permitted uh at 25 ft but we're asking for 45 which triggers a D6 variance more 10% or more than the permitted asking for 45 that I'm sorry 45 45 ft yes so it's more than it's it's 10t or greater yeah all right sorry so let's just focus on each of those variances the first is to allow for more than one use on the lot correct that's correct now this is on the lot is the existing Collision Center and then we're proposing to add the billboard that's correct so we are adding a billboard to an existing use that's been existing for some time and this will not impact the existing parking lot or pedestrian ways and it will not generate parking requirements of its own so the impact on the site uh will be minimal if anything except for a visual uh impression of having a sign where one didn't used to be uh uh and in addition you indicated that a D6 height variance would be required because uh we are requesting 45 ft requesting 45 ft for the 14 High foot 14t high sign itself with a 45 Peak and that again is being to repeat some of the previous testimony that is being done to provide a view corridor to the sign through the wires that are pretty heavy on that side of the U of the road it's my understanding with a D6 variance that it is one of site accommodation correct and this is accommodating the site so you're looking at the sign not looking at the uh trying to look at the sign through the wires and I I was reminded of that earlier tonight I missed a green arrow because there was a wire going straight through it I got honked at okay what other what other variances are required well we need a front setback variant um which is a C2 because it's something we're self creating um for for the 25 ft front setback and what what is the setback required in that so 25 ft I'm sorry for something this High it' be 150 ft I believe right and we're we're proposing to put the sign back 25 ft that's correct okay and what other variances besides that that should be it okay so in that regard with respect to uh let's focus on the the D variances D1 what reasons exist for the granting of that D1 variant and again we are in a fairly crowded neighborhood and under 40 uh colon 55d item a to encourage I'll just read that to you then I'll go into my testimony to encourage Municipal action to guide the appropriate use or development of all lands in the state in a manner which promotes the public health safety morals and general well welfare this site is particularly well suited due to it it's distance far enough away from residential that we will be producing less than 006 foot candles at the nearest Residence and that it's site is located on an arterial road with existing commercial development that includes normal numerous signage including four existing Billboards just in the uh immediate neighborhood and it's a commercial and Retail service oriented area so this fits with the characteristics of this type of neighborhood as well as the signage and the the business if you will of being a commercial District of high intense use under item D to ensure that the development of individual municipalities does not conflict with the development and general welfare of neighboring municipalities the county and in this case the state in particular because we do have a state permit from do already who in their opinion has deemed this uh a appropriate location for the sign because we have obtained that uh NJ do permit then under item F to encourage the appropriate and efficient expenditure of public funds by coordination of public development with the land use policies well how does that fit in and that this is what we're offering is since it's a multi- uh function sign is to make it available to the municipality for municipal access for emergency and Public Safety alerts and that we would have to create a way that that would be done in a quick situation an amber alert whatever that so you would be able to have access into that sign as the municipality and with regard to that access that's something that's typical for these multi message bills correct and just the technicalities of working out that access would have to be done so it would serve a public purpose also it clearly serves a public purpose yes and then another item G to provide sufficient space and appropriate locations for a variety of agricultur residential recreational commercial and Industrial uses and open space both public and private according to the respective environments in order to meet the needs of all New Jersey citizens and under this one the S is particularly well suited again because of its distance from the residential and that the road is already an existing commercial development that includes numerous large Billboards and Retail oriented uh characteristics and a lot of traffic this is a commercial Zone additionally with this sign is proposed to be an on an arterior road with significant commercial presence it will benefit the residents and tourists in local businesses by presenting the information of what is available there and lastly as I also repeated it will be there'll be public access to the sign for public uh messages now what about the the negatives Mr schaer how do how do we get get over those negatives in terms of uh the number of uses the height and the front yard setback and again the front yard setback is because we don't have room for it in any other place as well as the height again is positioned is positioning the sign to be viewed through the wires as you're coming down the travel Lanes without having to you know as was mentioned earlier look through the sunroof so and it and it would be typical that a sign would be located closer to the roadway not farther away visibility correct that's correct uh with regard to the uh negative criteria then Mr Shaker let's please continue I wasn't able to find any particularly negative negative impact associated with this again we made um access for pedestrians underneath it uh as far as the sidewalks we're not blocking that we're not creating any blockages in the parking lot or driveway and it it its negative impact is mitigated by the fact that it's in the middle of a uh busy commercial Zone and when we look at the negative criteria there are other two parts to that is one is that would there be substantial detriment to the surrounding area surrounding neighborhood you would agree that there would not be a substantial detriment that's correct I agree there's not a substantial impact to the neighborhood right and then in addition there is the uh secondary the impact on the master plan or the zoning ordinance uh of the municipality in this case the township of ocean uh do you believe that would there would be an impact on either the master plan Oran no I do not and again that's why we're here because we're we're proposing something that's custom and doesn't fit within the confines of the ordinance to Be an Effective sign now I believe when I read read Mr Higgins report and listened to some of his questions he was referencing the existing ordinance which I believe we learned was in 1992 but that ordinance only would permit what is existing to be rebuilt is is your that's correct okay but those standards in the ordinance we would exceed anyway the I believe that Ence had a maximum 25 had a maximum height the 25 yes and in this instance we're asking for the use and not the deviation from the condition that's correct okay I have no further questions for Mr scha anybody have any questions for Mr Schaefer Jim I have some questions and some comments and I can understand why you think it's a D1 variance for the use of the billboard but you have to look at the construction of the ordinance and the intent of the ordinance and and the wording quite frankly is is unfortunate uh the intent of the ordinance and I was involved with the with the development of that ordinance Mr Mr chairman I would object to Mr higgins's testimony regarding the intent of the ordinance because we have to deal with the language of the ordinance now just so the record is clear I wanted to see if there was any legislative history regarding the ordinance uh and based upon my Oprah request there is none so unfortunately Mr Higgins may have personal knowledge that may not have transcended into the ordinance itself but the ordinance reads it says shall not be permitted so that's why we're here and I have to respectfully disagree with that if this was if th that wording was in another portion of the ordinance it said Billboards are not permitted anywhere in the township of ocean then I would agree with the attorney however that wording is in the conditional use section of the ordinance that is a condition of the conditional use in those zones in which Billboards are permitted as a conditional use so the fact that the billboard is being requested is a deviation from the condition of the conditional use that's where it is in the ordinance and the conditions it's not a D1 it's a D3 and it's necessary to demonstrate why the site can accommodate the use despite the deviation from that condition of the conditional use and what I've heard is that there are first of all there are power lines that block lock the view of a billboard if it were constructed lower I haven't heard anything saying that if the billboard were constructed further back on the site and obviously it couldn't be 150 ft but if it were constructed further back on the site to give a better setback at a lower height of 25 ft whether that then it would be visible under the wires and the other point is it's so close to the street when you're po up going down the highway looking up at the billboard you're not looking down at the exits from from that site or any other sites right in the immediate area which is one of the reasons why I thought it would be appropriate for the board to get its own traffic expert in this instance to look at that one issue and I think it all goes to and I also haven't heard anything about what other structures are located in the front yard that are 600 squ ft in area 4 ft in height and within within the front required front yard setback within 25 ft of of the the street and my observation in riding up and down Route 35 which I do every day is that there are no others and I think that in itself could be a substantial negative impact in terms of the character of Route 35 and those are the things I'd like to hear because I I have concerns that the site is not well suited to uh the construction of a billboard okay and the the other issue is that when you take this the entirety of Route 35 and looking at the exhibit from uh from earlier and I think it's A7 I think it is yes A7 is that there are a total of forgetting the Billboards that the applicant is has gotten permission from to build from the dot but not from the township there are 10 of those 10 six are located on vacant Lots other than Billboards three are located on vacant portions on developed portions of lots that have other uses on them and one is actually located on the developed portion of a lot and and is very clearly one that's that's different than the others but but this would be very different from any other sign or any other build billboard or any other structure on the entirety of Route 35 and I haven't heard any testimony to that effect and Zoning is required to give reasonable consideration to the character of an area that's that's uh in the miny SL okay Andy you want to hit on some of those points again a lot there were a lot but so that this is a larger billboard and closer to the street it is in fact that's no denying that but the special reasons are for seen through the wires being above the buildings and this sight this sign is designed to be seen from further away than you would a 25 foot high sign is set further back because of buildings and wires and and other obstructions that are in the way so looking at the sign when you're close to it looking up it's not designed to do that unless you have the sign is not designed to provide a message for the use of this property it's designed to provide off premise messag that's correct that's correct any other questions no will you be able to it's in the parking lot correct it's at the edge of the parking lot so will cars be able to be underneath it that's bill can answer the question sorry um no the the sign is uh completely outside of the parking or circulation area of the existing Park but the gray part is the parking lot up top right and I'm looking at the top of the sign there looks like parking lot that that's the rear um that's that that's not for patrons that is the rear fenced in area for the auto body shop so all the patrons you or I pull in to the site we would park in those head- in parking spaces none of them are underneath the overhang of the sign structure above all right and that monopole Foundation is located approximately 50 ft back from the do right of way so we put the sign Foundation as far back as possible almost even with the building my concern is I have a friend that had a his car got a javelin basically went through it where pole fell off one of these Billboards through his car and nobody wanted to take responsibility for it so Sor I literally just went through the car like somebody's Mr schaer do you know I have a question thank you for your testimony sir you may not have this answer but do you know if um another plot of land was ever investigated that where this billboard would be the only structure on the property and then it could be set back farther I am not aware whether study or search is done for that okay yeah that goes back to my question I asked whatever an hour or two hours ago at this point is why was this location chosen because seems like there's a lot of obstacles in the way and rather than altering the billboard to avoid those obstacles and making it more variances required maybe this isn't the right spot for this thing I I I thought that the applicant was going to give us some testimonies to that because you did ask that you would buy later on we would yeah I think uh Mr Steinberg I could address that in my closing statement because it's permit as opposed to location what what where you can put it that's basically your answer right and your answer is they went and got the permits first to see where they could put it and then they retrofitted it onto the highway the part of the permit requirement is coming for us and getting approval but no before you actually do it I believe the state requires the distance between other other Billboards on the on the highway um so that they if you grid it out then there's only so so many locations right but shouldn't you conduct your due diligence with the local town as part of your permitting process I don't I'm that's up to the applicant if they want to put the chicken or the the part before the Horsea but that was a rhetorical question but but it's a two-part system one which they need their state permits and secondly they need their local approvals so the answer is these are spaced out as far possible to achieve the maximum number of this type of billboard within the dot i I would respond by saying the location is chosen based upon where it can be located on the do standards it's not to maximize the standard is you have to be 3,000 feet or so so many feet away whether static multi message and the like so that's that's what goes into the locational selection but it ignores what the town's ordinance as won't say it ignores but you'll hear more from me on that so we keep going back to the distance and the do permitting between the I'm sorry I do I keep going back to this and in the planner testimony he discussed that our and Jim correct me if I'm wrong that our local ordinance says that um no existing Billboards yes I no new Billboards but existing Billboards that need to be rebuilt or I think possibly relocated or allowed so what is keeping a an existing billboard from upgrading to a multim message and not being able to use their permit any longer because we've approved an application for an existing multim message billboard that's now within 3,000 ft of an existing static billboard so through our under the argument that we approved the application existing Billboards within 3,000 feet existing static billboards would not be able to be upgraded because they wouldn't get the DOT permit is that correct they wouldn't be upgraded to multi message their permit is for static and that's been identified on the exhibit that Mr vote testified to earlier today I believe those were A7 and A8 it's 300t between a multi Mage and a static right so if they came to your board and modernized a static board to a multi Mage board they would still have do the same requirements get an updated do permit from that static sign to a digital sign okay and it would have to meet the same requirements so it's it's 300 from mul St 300 from Mage so they would need to rep permit for a from a static billboard to a multi message right but they wouldn't be able to do it because they need to be 3,000 feet away from multi message correct correct so if you said you had an applicant that came before you that modernize their sign from a stat correct so they are at least 3000t away from another adjacent billboard on the same side of theway but the current owners of those Billboards static Billboards would not be able to get a new permit in their existing location to modernize their Billboards because these new Billboards are going to be within at least two of the three applications correct are roughly again I don't have a tape measure on me within 3,000 feet or they're with currently within the 300 feet which is okay I understand that but they would be so we're basically saying there's those current owners could not upgrade if these applications were approved I just want to make sure I understand that so the applications if back sign they will not be able to upgrade that to a digital sign since we hold a permit for a digital sign that's with because dot has already granted you that permit so even today they couldn't do it if they wanted to correct unless we give up this okay and that that goes for thank you the do permit what what do they require in order to get the permit other than what do you have to go through to get the permit for the do what what do you have to prove or what do you have to show I mean I'm I'm trying to figure out how easy is to get this permit it's not easy it's not easy I just had one denied in uh forley uh from the dot they what purpose it was too close to a Gore uh from The Interchange of Route four and and I95 so there's specific requirements you just need as long checking boxes it it's not checking boxes the dot goes out and they vet the site they drive the highway they go through stringent requirements to issue that permit it's just not given to these applicants it's it's ultimately on them if something if something God forbid does happen it it's on the dot that they issued they they're protecting the public just like the D that's that's what they're doing that's why we go and get these permits they're they're here for you not for and I have to follow those rules do they dictate where on the site you need to put it or do you tell them where you want to put it on the site they do it's they they give you a map um that tells you where the permit is issued for and that's where we locate the sign and the the distances that they give us but a piece of their approval is Town approval no they give you the permit for it but it's you have to as a Outside Agency approval just like if I had to get a permit from soil erosion or the county or the D you are an outside agency to their permit so I have to come before your board and get get a s plan approval it's similar to you making a condition of of a approval of an application being that they have to get somebody else's approval thank you I said that wrong how long is that permit valid for like when do you have to start construction by like they are five years years and then you can renew them so theoretically if this process took longer than five years you'd have to get a new permit you you renew your existing permit yeah any members of the public have any questions for Mr Schaefer you're not have the hook yet Mr Schaefer come on up sorry remind us your name please and 192 oakr Road um I might have drifted off here so forgive me if this has already been talked about did you have a seat so the microphone can catch your um I thought we were sharing the mic um Mr Higgin report has this at the very end of it um this site is located in a section of Route 35 that is designated in the master plan as an area to allow mixed commercial and residential uses with an ultimate goal of creating a walkable mixed juice area the applicant should address how the construction of this billboard fits in with the goal of this master plan um you know I think we would all agree that the orch Tre Plaza area is a disgrace and uh hopefully the town will take some steps to spruce up that section of Route 35 and make it more attractive for everybody but you're asking how and I'm asking how your application would fit in with that goal okay as pre previously testified by me and and Mr V the do had a part in placement of that s but it does still provide for the ability to the sidewalk in any way shape or form from pedestrian traffic so it has not impacted in any way both positively or negatively the walkability of the sidewalk along rout 35 okay thank you thank you Joan damay 1633 Melville can you just um fill me in on the administrative code for the minimum miles per hour on the highway that has to be for a billboard to be constructed that would be probably Mr in do right it's probably better that is he here he's here battery change Brian the save time sit here so um I'm not aware of a minimum for a state highway most State highways uh run from 25 miles per hour to um 65 so it would be in that range uh and that is accounted for when you go through the NJ dot process they look at what the uh the speed limit posted is so I just looked up the code but I don't know if I'm looking it up correctly so just as a point of clarification um and I imagine it would have been caught in the permit process from NJ do but they generally say that the minimum miles per hour would be 55 miles per hour and I don't believe that Rune 35 is 55 I believe it's 50 so I'm not sure I don't know it's just a point of clarification yeah I don't know if that's a limit value for a billboard because I know of other areas that have 45 like Route 46 is I'm just asking for clarification yeah I don't think that or the board should ask for clarification from the you know from the do that that well if you can see if I could read your citation I would be glad to look at it um it was under I don't have my oh I do sorry uh 19 col 4- 8.14 then you go all the way down under Bill board and it indicates that the right away should be a minimum of 55 miles hour for a right away is uh width so I don't know how right away well r w yeah that's that's width that's the width of the the width of the says 55 mph minimum right so that that seems to be erroneous because right away is the width of the road versus the speed of the road so I don't here not withstanding the provisions table billboard shall only be permitted within a row right away having a posted speed limit of 55 milph or higher yeah I don't know if that another citation um anyway we can check that um was that citation again it's 19 colon4 d814 but you know when you look up the code you're not always getting the most current I can't right so that I have that problem too sometimes it sends you to right so I'm not you know I'm pointing it out that that I don't know if clear that right Roe 35 is 50 mph it's not 55 but that is considered as Mr Voit said that is considered in the vetting process that is I'm I I'm aware of that obviously do had to look at the the perit correct um I think that was my only question and then the only other question I had was it shouldn't be within 500 feet of the neighborhood so the again where the Mavis is there's a there's houses right there and there's actually a house closer than the Mavis to Rune 35 which would probably bring it within 500 ft of the sun again across the highway the permit is in hand and those factors have are 500 ft in our Township also or that's why we're here yeah but I believe the statute also indicates the state statute says it can't be within 500 feet of a neighborhood yes residential neighborhood yeah that I don't that has been Administrative Code understood but I do not know as you have said if that administrative code is current because anytime I look up an administrative code I always get the one 10 years back and you have to go to the Lexus Nexus to get the current one to make sure it is current well there's a lot of attorneys here so I'm sure we can get the answer oh they all have Lexus Nexus accounts that's I don't I'm just here to ask the questions understood I'm not the attorney no am I thank just to uh clarify the uh New Jersey Administrative Code title 19 is other agencies New Jersey metal lands commission so I don't think that would apply to this uh to this Corridor oh right yeah there it is thank you well D so what uh the CME repres uh Bennett has said it applies to the metal lands around giant Stadium that's their own because they have their own transportation district that is empowered by the legislature that they have their own rules and regulations for that Carter so like uh I don't know if you know buron County in that area they have their own special carbal area in the metal lands to write their own traffic regulations and I think that reflects that any more questions for Mr schaer or anyone else good evening you just state your name and your address uh Chris Cook 2000 Sunset Avenue um I wanted a question for the St that would be Mr schaer how are you good how you doing um interested in the public access to the signage and the information that I can provide like and we can't hear him um I'm I'm interested in the public access to the information that your Billboards can the towns and the information Billboards are for information yes that's correct uh what how do you manage that who has access well the somebody in the town would be designated to do that and provide the gatekeeper if you will of what other folks agen or whatever could have access to it um we would also probably have to explore County access to it maybe even State access to it and everybody's technology is a little different too so every Town's access is going to be a little bit customized based on the age of uh software Hardware things of that nature and they would have to come together on a Case by casee basis but that is still one thing we're offering which actually leads this begins to lead this under the uh ml to the state uh laws that it could be considered an inherently beneficial use in the town because of the access the town would have for public service so for missing children Amber Alerts exactly and that's exactly what I'm referring to one in particular but there are others I mean school closing snowstorms weather alerts there's a number of different things that it can be used for that the static doesn't and the multi message does correct the multi message does static does not um and that is in on all of your applicate of all of them all the three that are at applied for yeah you're going to be able to have access on that access two out of three okay I have thank you why two out of three and not all of them St oh but I thought you had four boards and so far and one is a static and the other three are multimedia the other two are that are here are mul and okay any more questions from the board any more questions from the public sorry well if she if you have a question of uh one of the other witnesses that didn't get asked yeah maybe that that maybe our experts can help with yeah that's or should that be part of her statement let's hear come on up come on up remind us your name again Diane sermont my question is other than the maybe public messages that we might get what are the benefits to the town and what are the benefits to the citizens of the town uh is there additional tax revenue uh you know is it is it pro-rated is it you know what's what is the financial benefit to the town to approve these fin well Number One Financial benefit taxes Etc and not to be considered on zoning applications by the board that's number one number two you can give a a comment period which is coming up now all those comments to the board as to why they should vote for or against the application the the board is not because it's a bigger rateable it's not a reason for the board to Grant an application I didn't know that yeah they're not supposed to okay don't leave don't leave oh you want my comments we're done and we're ready for public comments I'm not sure any more questions from the public okay okay um you know there so before you begin that now we have to swear you in so yes right for for Testimony right yes okay so do you swear the testim you're about to give is the truth and the whole truth yes okay question um there's in a no new billboard ordinance in town for 32 years and uh you know I don't want to date Myself by saying how long I've lived here but uh a long time the whole time I've lived here no one has ever came up to me and said I really wish we had a 45 fot double-sided digital billboard to distract us as we drive down Route 35 I am not sure that there is a valid public use for this other than maybe some Public Notices that we all get on our phones anyway um the Aesthetics of the Billboards of the billboard I think will be very unattractive we currently look at trees in that spot as we drive south on Route 35 if the extreme height of the billboard is being driven by the height of the poles and the wires then this is not the spot for this billboard and I encourage you to vote no on this application okay thank you hold on anybody have any questions Mr CH you have any no questions okay thank you thank you thank you evening you state your name and your address again Elliot Katan 28 Old Farm Road El New Jersey okay can you raise your right hand please do you swear the testy about the givers the truth and the whole truth yes than uh I'm very in favor of billboards I think they um help tremendously with local businesses it gives them the opportunity to uh advertise to the local community and um I think they just help a lot when they say there's no benefit to to Billboards I think there's a tremendous benefit besides the fact also of the public service uh that it provides Amber Alerts FBI alerts County alerts stuff like that so I am in total favor of billboards I'm in favor of all three right now thank sir what is your business I am retired oh thank you your name and your address Morad Ken 333 Park Park Avenue can you raise your hand do you swear the testim you're about to give the truth and the whole truth yes thank you um I grew up here my whole life I'm a graduate of ocean TP High School um I've been in marketing and advertising for Ecom based for digital for 12 years um I do believe that I'm in favor of this billboard I'm in favor of all three Billboards um I believe from a community perspective you know when you think about advertising these days and you think about you know trying to reach your Target customer um in a localized area like this where you have I don't know 30,000 or 20 something thousand people driving through rout 35 every day um and you're able to Target the individual customer within your community and speak to them it gives local businesses the opportunity to do that it's not easy to Market to the customers it's not easy to talk to your to your town and Target those locally and I know I find it to be a great opportunity for those locally to do that um you know I'm in favor of all three do you and your any M of your family have any financial interest in these Billboards no anybody have any questions any questions sir no questions thank you anyone else like to offer testimony come on up uh Joan damay 1633 Melville Street I'm swearing oh yep you swear to tell the truth the whole truth I do thank you um I'm just here to um I'm not I'm opposed to the billboard um the one we're discussing now on Route 35 um right now between deal Road and West Bark Avenue I believe there's already five Billboards this one would probably be number six in that small section between those two intersections there is a significant neighborhood which is where I live uh right behind um right across from where the billboard is being proposed there's a cross street called Town Mage Avenue which goes straight back to the jop park so if you're standing in the center of Tage Avenue looking West no matter what side street you come out of to make a turn when you look West you're going to see a 48 ft lighted billboard at night which is I believe a pollution intrusion for the light towards our neighborhood as well as an isore um we have a new development to the south of us which has a tree line um there's enhanced noise from over there so it's just I just can't believe now that there's going to be a billboard straight out on this side of the entrance to our neighborhood I live in the south section of that parcel um a few blocks back so I won't necessarily be able to see the billboard from my house but there are homes on the corner of Belmore and talage which are in the road right behind the STS or Mavis which was mentioned which is going to be in very close proximity to that very tall very bright moving billboard every so many seconds um so I just don't think it's appropriate location for such a large structure it's very close to the highway um it's going to be visible from pretty far away from many of the people who live in that neighborhood so I'm here to make my testimony that I do not believe it is an appropriate location for a that tall and that Lit Up type of a structure so close to a residential neighborhood anyone have any questions any questions no questions Jo thank you very much thank you first meeting ever state your name one more time for us Chris Cook and your address 2000 sun and do you swear affirm the test you're about to give is the truth and the whole truth yes thank you um I thought I'd come out and see what you guys are what you do and just get closer to the microphone I thought I'd come out and see what you guys do and and wow Billboards huh um as I think about it Ruth 35 is has been commercialized a lot um I'd rather see some Billboards that can put out safety messages and Amber Alerts and information than more stores I think um the benefits to a billboard outweigh what we've been doing to Route 35 um it's been commercialized a lot but I I think this is less intrusive than more Stores um so I'm in favor of that I'm in favor of billboards rather than stores okay any questions thank you very much would anyone else like to offer testimony okay floor is yours sh we close the public hearing now well I I I think you're going to hear summation and I think the board then needs to discuss how they want to handle this um given the information given by our professionals um we can close the public hearing there's nobody else to testify unless the board wants to reopen it at some other point so it would be appropriate but if we have questions following his summation then okay so let's just go I would leave it open because we may want to the board may have some questions of his of the experts thank you Mr chairman and as I indicated I did disagree with Mr Higgins because we're faced with an ordinance that has very specific language that says the construction of new no new billboard signs shall not be permitted in the township of ocean and then it goes on to say if you have an existing billboard and it continuously says the rebuilt or relocated billboard so that existing billboard is the only one that's protected by this ordinance so we have to look at the Constitutional dimensions of what that means and what that means is that the total Banning of a billboard by a municipal municipality is a violation of the First Amendment and and there were a few cases there was metromedia out of the United States Supreme Court and we have ianj Franklin out of the New Jersey Supreme Court that basically says a message on a billboard is a form of protected speech and now we go why are we here we are here for a billboard that a we know is constitutionally protected and B will require some relief from this board and what is that relief well first the safety and other requirements the basic requirements regarding the location of the billboard have been determined by the do as been testified by Mr vot Mr inanda there is a process and it's not an automatic process there may be reasons safety that are not check the box reasons that a permit will not be issued and if you have the list of permits from the do it basically gives you a location but that location may be from a mile marker from an intersection or the like and that will tell you where that should be so that's really the first step the do is the one will determine along State highways you still need local approval so when we go to that local approval what did we need here a use variance now we kept hearing the phrase special reasons special reasons has been determined to be sight suitability and this goes to Mr djo's questions about why here one is because of distance but with use variances we had two seminal cases the first you've probably heard all the time medich mediche was an 84 case and it basically address that you know there are some uses that you didn't consider the courts went haywire and what I mean by Haywire it was almost you could not put this anywhere else and therefore you had to have the one location so then there was another case price versus hedi out of Union City I happen to be privileged to argue that case in the Supreme Court and that court 20 years later after medigy says it doesn't have to be the only location is the site suitable so we don't look at other locations so we're asking for a few variances here on the D side one is the use it's not permitted we know that but we can get over that hump by saying that outright band it should be permitted based upon that factor that is constitutionally protected and then you get to the height and what is the reasoning for the height if you look at the various exhibits between both sides of the street you have the impact of the utility Po and again you're dealing with visib ility and safety and that's the reason that we are requesting the height of 45 ft now when we look at the existing conditional use ordinance and the like it basically says 25 ft I would submit to the board today that an ordinance in 1992 that had no idea what a multi message billboard would be should not apply here so we're looking at the Building height of buildings and you would of course have a sign over the building so you could see it from the roadway the other is the front yard setback you are requiring a front yard setback for a billboard sign for what a building would be and when you look at that it's like does that make sense the answer is no because if you have a freestanding sign which this is just happens to be a larger one that freestanding sign itself would have to be able to convey a message in a safe and efficient manner now when we look at this is that we know and I'll just walk away from the mic we see this billboard here with the two sides however there is a poll that is if I accept Mr vot's testimony not a significant structure in terms of its width or its girth probably a better word to use and then you have the sign above it so there's minimal impact on the ground in fact on the ground we're not disturbing trees we're not disturbing parking we're not disturbing Ingress and egress now when we go to the negative criteria that we've discussed is that is there detriment now the statute is pretty clear they threw the words substantial there's always some sort of detri somebody builds a deck and needs a variance there's going to be an impact I like to use the word impact instead of detri but is it substantial what's the substantial impact here on this area that has been determined by the dot to be suitable for Billboards we may not like multi message boards but there's nothing to indicate that this would have any impact and the cases that I just cited is that aesthetic reasons really shouldn't come into play that's a pretense for certain actions we know what Billboards look like so the question would be is that what would be the other impact is there a safety impact is there any other impact we haven't heard it we've heard some members indicate they don't like Billboards and others that do and then is that will there be a substantial uh I'm sorry will there be an impact on zoning ordinance or master plan of the municipality well this ordinance has existed for n since '92 and there's really nothing in the master plan that addresses billboards since that 92 ordinance which we know dealt with let's keep the existing and I believe Mr Higgins said that there was nothing prior to that 92 ordinance which regulated Billboards so when you put it all together and you look at this and say we have a constitutional mandate to provide messaging that's protected speech which is a billboard and is the site suitable I think you heard that this site could accommodate the use and it's suitable and applying the case law price versus HGI that case indicates that you don't have to look at other locations to determine suitability you look at this location we need one other variance and that is you have multiple uses on this lot you have a collision center and a billboard now you have root 35 several multiple uses and it's what I always call the Wawa example you have a gas station and a convenience store they function together so that's the best way to look at multiple uses is do they function together and if they function together without impacting one another my Wawa example is one builds off the other in this example nothing builds off this because it is a passive totally different type of use which is only the convey a message and as Mr vote testified in the July hearing is that there is just maintenance that is done here on probably quarterly basis to the side that's the only visit to this area so I submit to the board that there are sufficient cofs to Grant the variances requested and I wish to thank the board for their consideration and scheduling the special meeting thank you thank you Mar Mark can I ask you what you think of the quick jump to the constitutionally mandated well we we spech I understand that that no Billboards may be a violation of First Amendment but that's not the job for this board this board has ordinances for which they are seeking relief from if they feel that the ordinances in town are against the con unconstitutional they need to goity you don't have the right of the board to say that the ordinance is unconstitutional or approach the township to reone which has never done yeah so I mean there you don't have the power to do that you have a power to decide whether or not they've established sufficient proofs to Pro to prove the variances they've requested that's all you have you you know if the whole if our entire ordinance is is unconstitutional which I'm not saying it is that determination has to be made either by the mayor and counsil or in an action against the municipality to uh change the ordinance that's not you you have to decide whether or not you feel that the proofs presented are sufficient enough to Grant the different variances that have been requested does anybody have any questions I do I just don't know how to word it we'll give you a minute yeah so so going back to the constitutionality I understand that we can't determine whether or not we can't take that part into account but what we can take into part is the existing ordinance about no new Billboards from 1992 in our decision yes or no they need a they need a variance and and that's that is a variance for that ordinance right then question whether or not they needed D1 or D3 our our planner says that that provision is not under the the prohibition in different zones it is under the conditional use that you can have a billboard but you can't have any new ones yeah that was going to be my question and that becomes a D3 which is a different type of proof so that's that's that's you know that's an issue in itself whether and that that proof would be whether or not the site is suitable for this not far off from the d whether the site can accommodate the use despite the deviations from that conditional use requirement which is not that much different no it's not that much different than having the proofs necessary for a d variance um based upon the fact that the height is substantial the setback adds to the height which is substantial and it's not permitted in some basically and there with that the the negative and the positive sort of mesh together into to one decision there I'd remind the board too we denied a applicant that was trying to build a house on Deal Lake a couple months ago because of the height questions well the package that's presented here was 45 ft 25 ft from The Road Less Than 25t from right the edge of the side yes it's the pole itself is and Z that requires 150 which is maybe too much it's based upon the and then there's two uses on the site so again I don't know you heard some planning testimony of course in the summation but you know I don't know if you Akin this to a Wawa which has a gas station which feeds off of the convenience store Etc it seems to me that unless the unless the sign a piece of the sign falls down and the guy wants his car repair I don't think be well the other thing is like joint uses I I understand the the attorneys analogy but as it applies to our ordinance a gasoline station convenience store is one use it's not to uses but I understand his is making the analogy the two separate functions on the site even though it's one use you have anything to respond I say Mr chairman with respect to a conditional use is I don't disagree with what I've heard from Mr Higgins a conditional use is a permitted use subject to the conditions if you deviate from the condition it's one of site accommodation which the site suitability uh testimony would cover okay so the disagreement over what kind of approval I think that's major okay yeah but let me finish it has to be settled though right so so or I mean actually it has to be settled if it's going to be approved right so if somebody's going to make a motion to deny and it was denied then we don't have to settle that question is that right am I asking that properly our Planner yeah and Jim feels that this is a D3 variance I think they oh we just go with our planner we don't have to settle it it's we I mean that may not sounded no it's it's no we would take your advice and yeah I understand which which they did present their testimony would that was presented was was similar and would would apply to each each each variance the D the straight D which is you can't have a new billboard or the D3 which also says you can't have a new new billboard um in certain zones um so I I the board can decide how they want but I think the testimony will supply for either one okay whether or not you find that to be credible acceptable it's the second story then you have to mesh them all together because in addition to the D1 D3 there's the height that now the height is also another Dage which requires five affirmative votes again because the legislature and doing the municipal anus law felt that height in excess of 10 feet excuse me 10% of which is permitted is a substantial differential which requires the again the five affirmative votes which shows you that it's a more important variance to think about in Grant so you got the D1 D3 we'll call it that we got the the D6 which is the height and then the D1 for two uses and then the D1 for two uses because in our municipality we say that you can only put one use on a site okay variances for setbacks but that's C variances yes then we have some C variances for the setbacks um yes so how many votes do we have to take yeah I got a question CLA do I have a vote tonight or is it I do the alternates Vote or I how many do we need so okay no we can only take seven votes okay so how many people I don't know if anybody's recusing on this or no not here five what there have five regular members but how many can vote seven as long as everybody's one five six seven eight somebody doesn't get to vote who's low man on the totem pole it's not me it's always me Chris here it's me Chris doesn't get to vote but he gets to you get to participate in the conversation thank goodness no no no that's that's you know I don't I don't know and the other question was we talked about whether or not you felt that you need some of your own independent um verification as to the safety or the 8 Minute situation from someone who has experience in traffic engineering I don't need anything else all right so can we have a motion to close a public hearing motion to close second clear take the r just going to raise my hand from now yes second yes yes yes yes yes yes yes does anybody want to make a motion for a positive or A negative resolution I'd like to make a motion for a negative resolution I'll second it clear call the role um as you call the R I think the members should tell us why so that I can know um in in reviewing my ability to not reviewing but in in my ability to write the resolution and find out the reasons that you you feel that you wanted deny we vote Yes vote Yes motion was made to deny you vote when you vote Yes is to deny and just give me you know brief synopsis of why you feel should be denied do I vote Yes on no or no on no now you're voting yes you made you made a res you made a motion to deny so you want to yes to the motion why yes and why think the structure is entirely too large it's entirely too close to the road I don't agree with the 25 ft setback um do you want me to go on oh sure if you can I can good um I would have liked to have I can address you directly sir I I would have liked to have seen it um in a different spot I think if it was located on a plot all alone um where it could have been set back 150 ft it it would have um potentially been um better um I I just I don't I don't agree I I don't like this um I I just think I'm not comfortable voting yes on on this particular application in in this form thank you yes and for pretty much all the variances that they're seeking multiple use um and even though the orders was a while ago it was done um knowledge um the height as well so for those reasons uh yes I think uh notably the D6 variance for height there wasn't sufficient testimony to argue that that is logical reasonable yes I agree with everything everybody said so far I mean the site is not substantial to support this application the the the benefits of Public Announcement to me is not enough to support this case and be able to approve it and that's the one benefit that I see from this case uh yes kind of eing the same comments I just don't find the beneficial use of putting this sign up I the public service announcements but I don't think that's enough to justify the rest of use of the yes and I think it puts the board in conflict with past cases that we've ruled against and one that I know it's coming up where they're going to try to resubmit it the height setbacks I think it falls outside the scope of the master plan yes I did not hear anything that um would compel me to offer exceptions to the ordinances that we have in town regarding additional um additional Billboards in town the set height setback uh the height and the setback and the Dual use so I just not convinced that any exceptions are needed here right thank you for your uh consideration uh when can we schedule the next two we're not say for those the night's young isn't it um what do we do we just we well we we would carry Carri it tomorrow or no we can't we won't be able to figure it out yeah we won't be able to figure it out the day looking for another special meeting discuss it why don't we carry it to a date certain whether we're going I think your regular meetings tomorrow so then October we would carry it to the November meet when's the November Mee no October I'm sorry October meting October 9th we're gonna have an answer by October 9th because we moved that up because of maybe you should carry to November time you're not going to be able to figure no just if you have an October meeting for scheduling purposes so for October 9th is that the meeting date so but you're only going I understand I I just want to be carried so we can give the notice yeah so so basically the two other cases on tonight which is IAT Services LLC for 92 Highway 35 92222 and the other one is uh 148 Highway 35 are carried to the regular well re the October 99th 2024 meeting with no further public know required correct thank you can we have a motion to adjourn second second all in favor thank you everybody have a good night