##VIDEO ID:vVN7ucvvXeU## The August 13th, 2024 meeting. We'll, uh, stand up to do the invocation of the pledge. Dear Lord, heavenly Father, thank you for this day, Lord God, thank you for everything you do first. Lord, please bless our citizens. Please bless our first responders. Please bless the staff and our city, Lord. In Jesus name we pray. Amen. Amen. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Roll call please. Here, Lanik here. Vice Chair Forges. Here. Member Keller. Here. Member Shaone. Here. Member Galvin here. And Member Butler here. You have a quorum. Thank you very much. All right. Annual elections. So what we'll need is, uh, a motion for a chair, please. Um, go ahead. Um, I was gonna make a motion to reelect our current chair. Thank You very much. Do I have a second? I'll second. Alright, we have a motion to recall, to not recall. We're not recalling you from the Florida To keep me as, uh, chairman by, uh, member William by Member Keller. And seconded by Member Chacon. Let's go ahead and vote. Alright. Who missed I missing four or Everybody hit your dial pads up the top there Again, Why don't we reset it? We'll try again. So in front of you, you have, uh, yes or no dials. So when we call for a vote, just click yes or no. So let's go ahead and vote. Yeah, that's what I thought. Two more. One more. Alright, Chris, the two left. Okay. There we Go. There we go. Alright, that, uh, passes, uh, five to zero. We also need to, uh, do a vice chair. So I will take a motion for vice chair as well. You gonna do it again? Sure. I'll make the motion. Uh, we keep loose. All Right. Do we have a second? Second. Alright, we have a, uh, a, uh, motion by member Keller to keep, uh, Lou Fors as the vice chair. And a sec, excuse me a second by Member Chacon. Uh, let's go ahead and vote One more. Who's missing? I Pressed? Yeah. Well, no, it's, it's, yeah. My lights are lit up, so I assuming It's All right. We'll reset. Just make sure you hit the, the button hard. Go ahead. There We go. There we go. That goes, uh, again, uh, five zero. Alright. And so Kelton is a, you're the, uh, alternate, right? Okay, great. Cool. There's nothing, nothing really we're gonna vote on tonight, so you'll be okay. But, alright. Next up we have our consent agenda. Can I get a motion, please, for the approval of the minutes of June 11th? Oh, I may as well keep on, since I'm on roll here. Uh, I'll make a motion. We approve minutes of last Meeting. Thank you. Do I have a second? I second that we have a motion to approve the minutes of the, uh, planning zoning. June 11, meeting by Member Keller and a second by Member Forges. Let's vote. There we go. That's approved. Five zero. All right. Next up we have our city attorney, Rick er, who's gonna get up and give us a, uh, sunshine Law training, a Sunshine Law Training for everybody out there watching, this is a very good course. Pay attention. It's great. Good evening, commissioner. My name is Rick Geller. I'm a city attorney and I'm here to present on the Sunshine Act, the public records, uh, act as well as voting ethics. This is where we're going this evening, all of these topics, And we'll start with the Sunshine Law. And I want you to see exactly where the law comes from. It's from our constitution and state statutes. Uh, in particular, uh, article one, section 24 B of the Florida Constitution and Florida Statutes 2 86 0.011. Um, so this is, this is Supreme Law. When, when we're talking the Florida Constitution, this is the, the highest, uh, legal document that we have in the state. And here's what it says, all meetings of any collegial public body of a municipality, that's, that's us at which official acts are to be taken, or at which public business of such body is to be transacted or discussed, even discussed, shall be open and noticed to the public. And here is the corollary in the Florida statutes. All meetings of any board, of any municipal corporation that that's us at which official acts are to be taken, are open to the public. The board must provide reasonable notice of all such meetings. And of course, we rely on the city clerk's office to make sure notice is given the minutes. We have someone here taking the minutes shall be promptly recorded, and such records shall be open to public inspection. So the whole idea here is we have government in the sunshine. All government is transacted in full view of the citizens of the city. What is a meeting under the Florida Sunshine Law? Well, anytime at least two of you get together and either discuss or take any kind of official action or business or on, on official business or policy, that's a meeting. So you don't want to be in a position where two of you get together and discuss public business, even discuss it. If you're not at a duly noticed public meeting, such as the one we're at right now. I will say that if, and, and this, this is a, an if, if there were to be, for example, a subcommittee established that whose only purpose would be fact finding, and if that subcommittee had no decision making responsibilities whatsoever, if it had no recommending authority whatsoever, then you wouldn't be subject to the Sunshine Act. But of course, the planning and zoning board, and or when you sit as the LPA, you make recommendations to the City Commission, you fall fully, uh, under the Florida Sunshine Act. And so how do you, how do you comply? Well, meetings must be publicly noticed. They must be open to the public, and minutes must be taken. Those are the three requirements. So it is possible if two of you really, really, really want to get together outside of one of these meetings, you can do it so long as these three items are complied with. And another municipal client of ours, we've had situations like that where, where two, uh, uh, commissioners or council members want to want to meet, and they followed the, followed these procedures, went through the hoops, and their meeting was, uh, in fact compliant with the Sunshine Act. And so, when it, when the Sunshine Act applies, this is when you discuss any city business and, and, and, and look how broad this is on a matter that may come before the commission or board for a vote or even discussion in the foreseeable future, that is exceptionally broad. So I would urge you all, if you run into one another at a party or, or at Publix or, or wherever you may be, you can ask each other, you know, how are your kids doing? Uh, you, you can ask How, how, how, how's your, how's your spouse doing? Uh, but under no circumstances, discuss anything that could conceivably come before you, if not for vote, even for mere discussion. Just don't do it. Here's an interesting question. This actually has come up, uh, where a city commissioner will attend the board meeting of the recommending body and actually even offer some public comment on something that will come up to the commission. Uh, is that permissible? Actually, it is under, under un, under the, uh, sunshine Act. Um, of course, you know, if, if you have two members of the commission here, they, they, they cannot have any such discussion among themselves, but they, they can't offer you, uh, some comment that would be permissible. So, consequences for violating the Sunshine Law. And of course, this is never going to happen. It's just not gonna happen on my watch. Please. Uh, this goes anywhere from an unintentional violation to a knowing violation. And if it is unintentional, you're not off the hook. You can't say, oh, I had no idea about this. First off, you know, you had the, you had the city attorney present this to you, so that's gonna be really hard for you to say it was unintentional. But, but if it was truly unintentional, um, you could be held, um, liable for a fine of $500 as a non-criminal infraction. Now, when it, when it becomes a criminal matter, there's something called Mens Rea, which is a state of mind. You must have mens rea to commit a crime to be convicted of committing the crime. And so here we have a knowing violation of the Sunshine Act in the Florida statutes, and I give the citation. And if there's a knowing violation, that could be a second degree misdemeanor, you could be imprison for up to 60 days, and you could be fined $500. To add, to add, I was gonna say insult to injury, but I would say adding to adding to the penalty would be a better way to phrase that. So one thing you do not want to do is to end up with your mugshot on one of my PowerPoints. These two, these are two, some former, I emphasis on former Sumter County Commissioners, uh, who, uh, were arrested and charged with perjury and then removed from office by the Governor. Uh, they were, um, they, uh, perjured themselves in an investigation about whether they had violated the Sunshine Act. And here's from an article in the Tampa Bay Times that I found from a couple of years ago. So the, uh, state attorney's office received complaints that Miller and searched, those are the two commissioners that they were communicating through Miller's wife. And that brings up something else you cannot do. You cannot have a conduit, uh, to communicate between each other. And so, I, I, I cannot, uh, tell Chair Nik what, what Commissioner Forges told me, or, or vice versa. I cannot be a conduit to any communications, nor should, should anyone associated with the city be a conduit or a spouse or anyone else who, who, who may, uh, know both of you. But these two commissioners, they contacted each other directly 40 times in this half year period. And the arrest affidavit, Davids didn't say what Miller and Search were discussing, but many of the calls were made just before or just after scheduled county commission meetings. Prosecutors said, when you talk about suspicious circumstances there, it was, let's, let's shift over to public records. And, and, uh, again, this is supreme law of the land of Florida. Anyway, when it's in the Florida Constitution here, the citations Article one, section 24 A, and also, again, we're in chapter one 19 of the Florida Statutes. Here's what the Constitution says. Every person has the right to inspect or copy any public record made or received in connection with the official business of any public body. And this section specifically includes municipalities, uh, you know, they kind of, you know, bang you over the head. Make sure you know, yeah, this does cover municipalities. And each board created pursuant to law. This board was in fact created pursuant to law. Okay? What's a public record? That means all documents, it, and it does not matter what the physical form may be. So if this is something maintained or stored up in the cloud, if it's electronic, if it's, it could be anything under the sun, you'll, you'll see, you know, a lot of this language comes from the pre-digital days where they're talking about papers, letters, maps, books, tapes, photographs, films, sound recordings, data processing. A lot of this stuff is, everything's digitized, uh, nowadays. Uh, so, but it doesn't matter, even if it's not a piece of paper, it could be in fact a public record. And here are here, here, here are more criteria that, excuse me, Regardless of the physical form, okay, characteristics or means of transmission made or received pursuant to law or ordinance, or in connection with the transaction of official business of any agency. And, and the city is an agency under the law, okay? And, and here's more criteria that public records are any material prepared in connection with official agency business, which is intended to perpetuate, communicate, or formalize knowledge, perpetuate, communicate, or formalize knowledge. So if I write, if I write a note to, uh, to the city clerk, that becomes a public record. If, now, there are certain exceptions here. If I, if I, if there's pending litigation and I write a note, uh, in, in connection with that pending litigation, I can claim an exemption while the litigation is pending. There are, there are other exceptions. We are right now litigating on behalf of the city a case where, uh, there was an active criminal investigation of, uh, someone who lived here in central Florida. And, uh, a request was made by that person for all these documents. He specified communications with a police sergeant, et cetera, et cetera. And I responded in a letter that, uh, the city cannot, uh, provide you with these records because they are related to an active criminal investigation. He called me and asked, who is the subject of this active criminal investigation? I said, I'm not at liberty to tell you. A week later he was arrested. Alright? So that is an exception. That is an exception. And, and then he actually, he sued the city for these records that are exempt. And we're going to trial on this on August the 26th. So anyway, to perpetuate, communicate or formalize knowledge. Now there is an exception here that is very important, and I want you to feel very, very comfortable. And that is taking your own personal notes. This is something I, I always did. I, years ago, I served on the Orange County Planning and Zoning board. And I, I needed my notes to organize my thoughts, uh, as I'm hearing testimony, as I'm hearing the staff presentation. And then I'm able to take chaos and form some concrete ideas and, uh, pontificate or, um, uh, make whatever public statements i, I care to make. So you can take personal notes. Now, the second you take a personal note and you give it to someone else, if you were to give it to, to ginger or, or, or, or, or notch or, or, or Mr. Rumor, it's no longer a personal note because now you've going back one slide, you've now communicated knowledge or information, alright? So you could take your own notes to, uh, for your own use in remembering certain things that do not fall within the definition of a public record. And there's case law about that. Uh, I would urge you to be very careful about transitory records. Uh, transitory records might be, um, uh, an email, uh, you know, don't forget, uh, the, the, the, the planning and zoning meeting on such and such a date. Don't delete those, don't delete those emails that are reminding you about, about a public meeting. But transitory records would also include telephone messages. So if someone leaves me a voicemail, our law firm, for example, has software that, that keeps these voicemails and even have a little transcription. So if I'm ever given a, a public records request, I then can try to find the, um, uh, the, the voicemail. So, uh, do try to keep anything relating to public business that, that you may have. Uh, now sometimes there's a little bit of a Overlap or may, maybe it's not so much, overlap is not the right word, but, but here you had an email sent by a mayor from her personal computer using her personal account with blind copies to friends and campaign supporters. But it was not made in connection with the official business of the city. That was not a public record according to this court. So if it's something, uh, relating to a political campaign, uh, that could very well be separate and apart from the official business of, of the city. But, but, but it should be kept, it should be kept separate. Here's some examples of public records violations. Uh, first I have here destroying a public record. Do not destroy a public record, um, un unless, uh, there are certain, uh, uh, retention requirements. The documents have been kept for a dozen years or whatever, whatever the, um, the, the requirements of, of the municipality may be. Uh, failing to promptly produce a public record in good faith in response to a request. So years ago, again, when I was on the Orange County, PNZ, I would get the periodic email, uh, asking for all of my communications relating to such and such a topic. Then I would do a, a search through all my emails using keywords, and I'd compile all these things and I'd send 'em on, uh, to the, um, clerk's office. I can't remember who, who was, who was coordinating those efforts, uh, at Orange County. Another, Another Violation would be a, a records custodian failing to turn over public records to a successor custodian. You all don't need to to worry about that one. So let's go into the penalties. Now, It's very similar to penalties under the Sunshine Act, in that you go from what's not intended to what's knowingly, uh, done and then, and then willfully and knowingly done so. So any public officer who knowingly violates the public records act, uh, faces a suspension removal or impeachment, and it's a misdemeanor of the first degree, that's a imprisonment up to, uh, a year, a thousand dollars fine. And then if there's willful and a knowing violation, it gets even worse. It's a, it's a felony of the third degree. We're talking up to five years imprisonment. We're talking, uh, a, um, a a fine of $5,000 and then For habitual offenders imprisonment up to 10 years. And they really wanna, uh, make an example of you. So don't destroy any public records, please. Let's talk about ethics. Let's talk about voting ethics. So the, the general rule that you should follow is you should vote on everything unless there is an actual or a parent conflict of interest, which I'll, which I'll get to. Uh, but generally speaking, under Florida statute 2 86 0.012, no member of the board, uh, may abstain from voting general rule, except when there is or appears to be a possible conflict of interest. And we're gonna talk about what, what that means. And, and, and this is important because so much of what you do are, these are quasi-judicial proceedings. Um, and then we, we, we want to make sure that if you are abstaining from a vote, that, uh, it is truly to ensure a, a free and fair proceedings that the, uh, uh, individuals or, or, or companies, uh, who appear before you, um, uh, get a, a full, uh, fair shake and that they have due process. So here is when you have a voting conflict, no board member shall vote upon any member which would in endure to the member's special, private gain or loss. That is the, the standard here. So even if, um, I, I, I'm trying to think, I, I remember, uh, an, an issue where, um, there was a, for another client, another municipal client, where there was a vote that the, um, council members or commissioners' taxes or, or, or assessment was gonna go up. And he was willing to, to, uh, to pay for it. But it was like, to his harm, I guess, if you were to look at it that way, his taxes were gonna, or assessment was going to go up. And, um, the question was whether he had a, a, a voting conflict. And, um, the answer to that was, well, it depends. It depends. Even, even if it's gonna harm you, if it's not really a gain, it's gonna harm you. It's still is a voting conflict. So it doesn't matter gain or, or loss. And I, and I'll get into in a moment, you know, whether, you know when I said it depends, that depends on how many households are affected by this, you know, uh, members of the city commission and, um, uh, you know, board member Keller. Certainly, you know, at various times when, when, when you were on the, on the city commission, you're voting on your, on the budget, which affects the millage and affects your taxes. And of course, there's no conflict because your, there, your, if there's any private gain or loss, it is so minuscule, it is lost in the, the multitudes. Um, there's nothing special about that private gain or loss. 'cause it affects everyone citywide, tens of thousands of people, right? So again, it, there's a conflict if the vote shall nure to your special, private, private gain or loss. And this includes not only yours individually, but, uh, if you are, um, any, if you are the a, a, a principle of a company that is, that is, uh, retained by the city, for example, uh, or, uh, to the parent organization or a subsidiary of a corporate principle by which you are retained. So if you're working for a company and that company has business with the city, and you're gonna vote on a matter that affects that business with the city, I would steer clear of that. The other thing to remember that that special private gain or loss is not only to you or to some company that you may be, um, a principal of or, or, or, or, or working for. Uh, it also includes a relative or business associate. And for relative, it, it's real easy if it's a, a spouse, if it's a, uh, a, a parent or, or child, that's, that's pretty clear. When it goes to the, uh, second cousin, uh, uh, two generations removed, I mean, it gets a little, um, a a little touch and go. And if, if there is, if there, if there's a serious question about something, uh, you should, um, ask, uh, whoever is, whoever counsel is, uh, if it's JJ or, or whoever's sitting here, uh, or if you know before actually all the better, I would ask you if you think that there may be a conflict issue, um, I would, uh, bring that to the attention of, of, of a notch or, or, or ginger or, you know, whoever the staff person is, and ask that this question be transmitted to the city attorney's office so it can be addressed beforehand. So we're not here, uh, trying to, um, uh, decipher some complicated conflict issue on the fly. It's much better if we know beforehand, if, uh, we can look at the case law. Uh, we can look at the statute and, and make, um, the best determination that we possibly can. So, uh, oh, and then also it, it does include business associates too. So if you have a partner, uh, in, in a company, you cannot endure to that partner's, uh, uh, gain or special gain or loss. Alright? So if you must abstain from a vote, you should ask the city clerk's office for form eight B. And this gets filed with the city clerk, and it explains, it just creates a public record, uh, for why you abstained. And this is also, uh, required by the Florida statutes. So we we're talking about special private gain or loss before, and I, I guess, guess I gave this away when I was using the example of voting on taxes. Um, but what the, what the courts look at here is the, or, or actually the commission on ethics would look at the size of the class, nature of the interests, the degree to which everyone in the class is affected, uh, the burden and benefit received by the official compared to others in the class. Uh, the degree of certainty or uncertainty as to economic benefit or harm. There, there are a whole host of circumstances that may be considered in determining whether there's a pri special private gain or loss. Uh, we, we had, um, an an issue, uh, here on, on this commission when, uh, um, commissioner ages Hart had to vote, uh, on, on a matter that concerned, uh, an an election or, I, I can't remember if it was, I guess it was a, um, or the moving of an election that somehow, uh, affected him. And he asked, you know, you know, can I vote on this? And, and the answer is yes, you must vote on it because the date of the election, that that does not go to your special private gain or loss, even though you, you may, you know, you, your, um, your status as an elected official, uh, may be affected by this, but that would be a public gain or loss, not a private gain or loss. So those are some of the things that, that, that we look at. Let's talk about gifts. Let's talk about gifts. Don't let anyone who appears before you give you a gift. How's that for simplicity? Alright? No public officer that's all of you shall solicit. I can't imagine that any of you would solicit or accept anything of value that the recipient of value to the recipient, including a gift, a loan, a reward, a promise of future employment, future favor service based upon any understanding that the vote official action or judgment, your official action vote or judgment, uh, would be influenced, thereby, right? Right. Don't accept anything from anyone who may be appearing before you. Just don't. Just don't. There's another Florida statute here that, well, first off, agency, I explained this earlier. Agency means any municipal gut entity of the state. And that's, that's in the, in the definitions here, here, public officers includes anyone appointed, that's all of you. Uh, uh, uh, actually, it says here, pretty explicitly, any person serving on an advisory board and you all are in, are an advisory board. Uh, you cannot misuse your public position. No public officer shall corruptly use or attempt to use, uh, his official position, uh, to secure a special privilege, benefit or exemption for himself, herself, or others. Right? Nothing special for yourselves whatsoever. Don't do it corruptly. That's all defined by the Florida statutes. Anything done with a wrongful intent for the purpose of obtaining, compensating, receiving compensation, or any benefit from an act or admission, um, of the public servant, inconsistent with the proper performance of his or her public duties. So it's kind of a self-defining thing. You know, it's corrupt if you do it. Alright. Uh, CEO means commission on on ethics. Uh, and here's one where, where they're looking at, um, uh, what is, uh, misuse of public position. Uh, when is there corrupt intent? And the, uh, chairman opined intent generally is determined from an examination of all relevant circumstances. All decisions must be firmly rooted in a valid public purpose, not your own pocket book or, or anything that would, that would benefit you in any, any way. Alright? Uh, here's another, uh, again, this all derives from the Florida Constitution. A public officer shall not abuse his or her public position to obtain a disproportionate benefit again. And when it's coming from the Constitution, this is, you know, very, very, um, uh, high and mighty indeed. Here's from the Florida Administrative Code, where it's defining what a disproportionate benefit is. Any benefit, privilege, exempt or exemption that may result from an or omission from a public officer inconsistent with the performance of your duties. So it's not only that you get a benefit, you know, it could be that you get an exemption from something. You, you don't want to take advantage of anything, you know, play by the rules, jump through all the hoops like any, any citizen, uh, of the city of Ocoee would need to do. No, no, uh, no, no special favors. Um, you know, it, it, it kind of reminded me, uh, for, for a moment, I, I lived in, I I used to live in Winter Park and they would do a, uh, a tree giveaway where actually the city would come and they would plant a tree in front of your house in the public right of way. And, um, I wanted one of those trees. And, and I, I, I, I, I talked with the, um, the city arborist. I said, you know, I'd, I'd like to get one of these trees, but I, I don't want to any, any special favor, just whenever you're, you know, giving out trees in my neighborhood on, you know, whatever timeframe you're, you're doing it anyway, would, I would love to have one, uh, but you know, nothing special for me, please. And, uh, so just, you know, be I, I was very cognizant of this. I didn't, I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to, you know, get anything, um, any special favors, even if it's a, a little, you know, a little twig of a tree. Okay? Um, Florida administrative code defines what a disproportionate benefit means, as used in the Florida Constitution. It's a benefit privilege exemption, uh, or result arising from an act omission of a public officer of inconsistent with the performance of your public duties. Alright? You don't wanna do business with, with local government necessarily. Uh, so when you're acting in, uh, well, the first part really would pertain more to a, a, a city commissioner, um, because y'all wouldn't be voting on, on contracts with that the city would enter into. But, but if we go down to the second paragraph here, so while acting in a private capacity, a public official of the local government may not sell rent, lease any realty goods or services to the government, right? So you, you, you really don't wanna be in a business relationship, uh, with the city, uh, in this sort of, uh, this sort of relationship, any anyway, alright? Uh, unauthorized compensation, it's also covered by the Florida statutes. No public officer shall accept any compensation, uh, knowing or, or, or if, if the officer should know that it was given to influence a vote or other action. Uh, and I have a photo there of money being handed under the table. So this is, this means don't accept a bribe, okay? I can't be more blunt. Don't accept a bribe, uh, burdens placed on the public official to exercise reasonable care in determining whether, uh, the, uh, whether you're receiving something of value to influence your official action. And the larger of of value, the more difficult it should be to justify, uh, it's being given for any reason, except other than to influence, uh, how you might vote on something. So, alright, there are, uh, penalties, uh, for, for this, uh, for, for these violations as well. Impeachment suspension removal from office, civil penalty not to exceed $10,000. Again, don't accept the bribe. You don't want a civil penalty, uh, of up to $10,000. Uh, who decides if there's a voting conflict or an ethics code violation? That would be the Florida Commission on Ethics. And they have staff that prosecutes violations when a complaint is filed. And there's some revisions in the Florida statutes recently that these complaints to the commission on ethics must be made by someone who, uh, uh, has knowledge of the violation. They can no longer be anonymous. Um, the, uh, commission on ethics will issue opinions on whether something does or does not constitute ethical violation. And here's who you never want to appear before the commission on ethics. And there, there's, there's a, uh, step-by-step process that again, anyone with personal knowledge can file a complaint against not only an elected official, but an appointed official as well. Uh, the complaint, at least at first, is confidential up to a, a later point, which I'll get to, which is a probable cause determination. And, uh, here's, here's the form of the commission on ethics, and here is, uh, a, a, a complaint brought, um, um, by Joseph Davis against, um, I, I can't even read that, but, uh, the, the, there is initial review by staff, staff of the Commission on ethics, and they determined whether the allegations, if true, they're assuming the truthfulness of the allegations would potentially be a violation of any ethics law. So that's a very, uh, generous standard for, for, for a, for an ethics violation or potential ethics violation. It's a low threshold, is what I wrote in the slide. So, so if there's this initial determination that the complaint is legally sufficient, the commission's staff investigator begins a preliminary investigation. Uh, once that's begun, there'll be a report of findings. And that is sent to the, to the person who is accused of the ethic violation. And to the, uh, commission's advocate, it's usually an assistant attorney general, an advocate. This, this means, this is, you could think of like a prosecutor, someone who would be prosecuting the ethics violation. Uh, the, uh, the person who was accused can respond to the investigator's report. And the, the advocate, or the, the prosecutor you can think of the person, uh, will review the complaint and draft a written recommendation on probable cause. So this, this is almost like, um, you know, probable cause as, as like a police officer might, might determine, uh, there's probable cause to make an arrest, something like that. But this is, this is, uh, before the commission on ethics. So, and again, there is an opportunity for the person accused to respond to the probable cause determination. So the, the commission on ethics, here's the, the advocates recommendation on probable cause in a closed meeting, and they make a determination then whether there is or is not probable cause. And at that point, and only at that point does the, uh, does the whole matter become public? Uh, either there is a finding that there is no probable cause, and the whole thing is, is dismissed, the complaint is dismissed, that that's public or the commission may, may order further investigation and, uh, set a trial, uh, before the commission on ethics at which testimony is given. Evidence is introduced and received, um, by an administrative law judge through the division on administrative hearings. And then the A LJ makes a recommendation to the commission on ethics. And the commission on ethics makes, takes final action to determine whether a violation has occurred. If, uh, a violation is found to have occurred, the commission may impose one or more penalties on the public official, public official may appeal to the district court of appeal. The whole point of me putting all these steps in here is to say, you don't want to get caught in this. It is a long, convoluted, cumbersome process. You don't want your name dragged through the mud. Alright? Uh, the a the governor, uh, can suspend any from office, any appointed municipal official for malfeasance, misfeasance, and neglective duty. And I have all that, all that defined here from the Florida statutes, you know, you know, malfeasance, if it's wrongful conduct, you're doing something you ought not to do. It's very related to misfeasance, which is the performance, um, by an officer of a legal act in an illegal manner. I don't have a good example of that off the top of my head. Uh, but neglective duty failure, whether, uh, willful or accidental to perform a duty required of the officer, all those things. And then, then some of the stuff that I don't think will, will, will come up here, habitual drunkness or just incompetence, uh, or permanent inability to perform official duties. Those are all grounds for the, for the governor to, to, uh, remove a, uh, public officer. So, um, there, there is a, um, any violation of the statutory code of ethics constitutes malfeasance, misfeasance, or neglective duty. That's, uh, how the governor would look at it. And the governor can also suspend a municipal officer if arrested for a felony or for a misdemeanor related to the duties of office. So any kind of felony, even if unrelated, but if it's a misdemeanor, if it's related to your duties, can be suspended. If convicted, the governor removes the official from office. If found not guilty, the governor must restore the official, uh, to office. Uh, so that is my, my summary. And I don't know if any of you, um, thought of any questions as I was going through all that. Eric, go ahead. On the, uh, retention of records. Yeah. Uh, would it make sense to set up an email address that is only for or business related to, to the city? That could, yes. If that could help you in keeping things separate, um, sure, but you have to, you have to make it so that you actually will see those emails. Uh, you don't want something going to some email bucket and like, oh my gosh, I didn't, I didn't even realize I was getting those emails. So, so like on your phone, you would set it up as, you know, it would be in your all emails, um, inbox, you know, from whatever bucket that they're going in. But at the same time, it's separated into, you know, you know, your PNZ email address or, or, or something. Yeah, you can, you could certainly do that. Okay, Thank you. Mine's, brad loves co.com. Mine's joelKeller@co.com or or gmail actually.com. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That, that is a good idea. Alright, anybody else have anything? Anything else have anything for, uh, attorney Geller? Thank you very much. That was awesome. No problem. Thank You. Alright, appreciate It. Alright, next up we have the, uh, status of the, uh, 2045 comprehensive, uh, plan update and, uh, looks like, uh, manager Whitfield is not gonna do it. No, I just wanted, say something real quick. We had two projects that we initially had already sent the 300 foot notice out, but didn't advertise. We were hoping to bring to this commission meeting, we had to resend the 300 foot notice when it didn't make the meeting. So we may have people attend. The gentleman that's here, I spoke to him earlier, he's still hanging out, but that's why we have somebody here, so thank you. Oh, And now the star of our show Zoning manager, Whitfield. Okay. I can't see anything about my galas. Okay, So comp plan, um, the staff report sort of gave a background summary. Um, hopefully you all had a chance to take a quick look at that. The purpose of today is, um, so Mike is here as our director and acting assistant, city manager, and Ginger's here is our de our deputy director, but also acting director. And, um, they're like, you know, they're the, the support singers, I guess if I misspeak. So, um, I'm gonna go over it kind of fast. So, uh, for each chapter, and then we can discuss it at the end of each chapter if you would like. Um, so just a quick background summary. This body, I believe maybe not the two new members saw this in March of 2024. No, you, you guys weren't here yet. So in March of 2024, um, let me, let me backtrack a little bit. The comp plan is required by state law, uh, every local government, city and county, and the state has to adopt a comprehensive plan. And that plan is the law, the Bible for our jurisdiction. The land development code implements the comp plan. So if you think about an order of prior, uh, of importance, the comp plan is the umbrella, everything else is under that. The LDC, the engineering standards manual, all, everything, all other codes falls under that. Um, the state requires that the comp plan has at least a two year planning horizon. The first is 10 years, the second is 20 years. Um, a little small portion of that is the capital improvements element, which is we're obligated to keep a minimum five year capital improvement schedule, which the city commission adopts every, um, year as part of the budget. So the capital improvement schedule, um, will come to this body in October time period. But it's just those capacity improvements that are inside of the budget as a total. So, um, our comp plan currently has a, um, it was adopted in 2002. So you think about the fact that the state requires a 20 year planning horizon, our comp plan is, is outdated and it's essentially expired. So we have to update the comp plan, um, because so much has happened over the past couple decades, and the fact that the 2002 comp plan is based on late 1990s data, this comp plan is a complete refresh, um, a reorganization of where the city is looking to go. Um, the planning horizon that we have is 2045. That'll put us a little bit over the 20 years, but it's just a nice, you know, solid number to land on instead of having a 2043 comp plan, which is kinda odd. So, um, you see in the staff report that the current comp plan just has the individual elements, um, sort of typically living by themselves, just focus on their specific aspect, future line use, transportation, housing, conservation, et cetera. What this comp plan, what we're trying to do is look at it holistically for the city. So every element, um, won't just sit by itself, it'll, they'll communicate with each other, and we have them separated into chapters with the chapters, um, based on each focal or focus areas. So, for example, chapter, uh, one introduction, um, that's not required by statutes, but chapter two, we want to have a vibrant, attractive, and inclusive community where everybody, you know, is included and is considered in our land use decision making when we consider permits, when we consider projects, et cetera, public investments, all those things. Um, so you'll see, you saw in the staff report that this chapter will now have the future land use housing and parks and recreation because, um, at staff level, we feel like land use guys decision making, housing's important, and parks and rec is important because as, as any family person, homeowner, you think about where you're living, where you recreate, and where you live. Okay. Um, chapter three, it's all about infrastructure. Um, it's the, the engineering chapter, the more black and white, um, type chapter. It deals with, um, our infrastructure in terms of utilities. So pot, water, reclaim water, sanitary sewer, those are sub elements by themselves. And then drainage as its own separate sub element as well. And then chapter four is mobility. It was formally or currently the transportation element. We wanna move away from moving cars, so we wanna move towards moving people and goods instead and having that movement be efficient and safe and reliable. Chapter five is environmental. So we wanna become a sustainable community that's environmentally friendly, that's resilient. Um, you might have, remember, you may remember the flood plains ordinance that we just passed, so hopefully when we do our reevaluation, we'll get that class seven. So that's great. Chapter five is all about creating that environmentally sensitive, friendly, sustainable, resilient community. Um, it also will include goals and objectives and policies relative to aquifer protection and natural resource protection that currently lives in the infrastructure element. So it just makes a better fit to move it into the conservation element. Um, chapter six is governance. We wanna be open, like Mr. Geller said, we wanna be responsible and we wanna be accessible. So all of the, um, elements like, um, intergovernmental coordination, capital improvement schedule, the public schools facilities element, and the recently required private property rights elements, those are captured inside of chapter six. And then the appendix is everything else. Um, definitions, acronyms, and things like that. So, um, over the past several months, um, we, so this is a collaboration and, and just so you guys know, this is all done in house. We don't have a consultant working with us. It's all, um, members of the various departments, public works, um, parks and recreation, um, our CRA administrator, ginger, um, utilities, uh, course development services. All the departments have a representative, or two, I think in one case, three. Um, but different focal areas from that one department are all working together. We meet every two weeks to talk about where we are in terms of the data collection coming up with the drafts goals and objectives and everything. So at one of our meetings, we thought it would be a great idea if we had a vision statement for the comp plan, not a vision statement for the city, but for the comp plan where we wanna go in the comp plan for our city. So this is the vision statement that we came up with focusing on, again, vibrant and attractive and economically sustainable community where businesses thrive. Neighborhoods flourish through diverse, compact, complementary land uses, um, getting us quality developments that are safe and connected and, but at the same time, preserving our natural systems, creating parks, and creating social engagement. Uh, which altogether, you know, you're able to get out in a low stress environment. You can access your friends, your neighbors, your parks, your kids can go hang out with their friends or go to the park safely. You create that peace of mind. You create, um, gathering spaces so you know, when you get onto that environment, you have a healthier mental state. So all of that is included in this vision statement. So the vision statement guides each of the elements. Again, future line use housing and parks and rec. In chapter two, the future land use elements, we're proposing two goals right now. It's got like five or seven goals and a plethora of objectives and policies inside of them. And the majority of them, um, sort of repeat each other and they just basically say the land development regulation will do this. It's, it's not really, um, you know, it, it's back in the late nineties where there was more rural settings, more suburban environment, but Koi is just shy of 50,000 people. Um, at our March presentation, we had shared that based on our estimation, we are going to reach close to 74,000 residents. So we are a small city, we're growing there. Um, and it will, we will experience growing pains. But the goal of the goal of goal one, sorry, that sounds redundant, is to create that balance, um, between growth and maintaining character and, and protecting the environment for current residents and future residents, as well as property owners who may own property here, but they don't live here, but they still have a vested interest in this city. So a few objectives under that goal. Um, first and foremost is of course the future land use map. Every future land use element in the entire state of Florida has a future land use map. And that map is all the colors that you guys have seen before with all the different land use categories. Um, it's the future land use categories are what establishes the density, which is the units per acre, um, and the development, um, potential, which is the floor area ratio, um, but also looking at different, um, corridor studies, corridors, special areas and things like that. Um, objective two is we want to make sure that we are recognizing the city's identity. Um, o COI is, you know, becoming more and more popular. We have people coming, they wanna move here. Um, they wanna, we want to have them move here and thrive here, have children here, and have the children love it here and stay here. So the objectives that you'll see is are going towards that direction. All right, the third objective is the land development regulations. I need to change that to land development Code statutes refers to its land development regulations, but ours is the LDC. So this objective is telling the land development code that it needs to have these things creating zoning classifications. FAR density uses. Um, one thing that is, um, new here is we want to create parameters where land uses that are inconsistent or that are non-conforming to what this, to the direction that the city wants to go will become, will get eliminated over time. Like, we're not going to force someone out, but we want to create policies that will set the stage for, um, uses that are incompatible with the vision to eventually filter out and have new quality development come in. Um, the fourth one is innovative development. We want to look at opportunities for low impact developments, um, transit or pedestrian friendly environment, uh, developments, you know, vertical mixed uses and things like that. Um, infield, we have lots of pockets of infield where properties are underutilized. Um, this objective will have policies that, that goes towards that. The second object, I'm sorry, the second goal for the future line use elements is creating a sustainable and environmentally conscious community. Um, there are two objectives under that. Again, like I mentioned previously, natural protection, um, natural resource protection, which currently lives in our infrastructure element. It's being moved here. It'll also be tied to the conservation element. So the policies in here will support the policies in the conservation element. We wanna make sure that we're protecting all of our natural resources. Um, objective two talks about energy and efficient development, looking at best management practices, seeing what are, you know, the existing literature is out there as far as, um, resource protection, um, eliminating heat, s um, things like that. So that's, this is the softer side of the future line settlement. So this slide is packed full of a whole lot of text. Um, right now as, uh, you know, we currently only have three land use categories for residential loadings. Residential, which is currently at zero to up to four. So 3.99. Um, medium density is four up to eight, so 7.99 and high density is up to 16. What we are proposing based on looking at some of our surrounding sister cities, um, and looking at what Orange County is wanting to do along our boundaries, some of them have their corridors that they've designated as higher densities. Um, we want to make sure that we're kind of closely lining up with them. So what staff is considering, um, is increasing low density residential to five. Um, winter garden, for example, their low density residential goes up to six. Um, and so we are like right next door to them. Uh, introducing low medium density, so five to up to eight. So still keeping that eight, um, for me for low medium, but then moving medium to eight to 15. Right now our high density residential is no higher than 16. We're, um, considering moving it to 22 because, uh, roughly 2022 is the county's lower density for its suburban, rural, or suburban corridors. If you look at the 2050 plan vision plan, we're falling, our neighbors outside of the city's jurisdictional limits will be developing around 20 to 22. So this is just a, a, um, an opportunity to be competitive with them to invite good development in our city. Um, commercial, and I'll go back to e in just a moment, commercial, we are currently at an FAR of three for a single use development. If you are familiar with our comp plan, we currently have, um, a 3.0 FAR and some opportunities for mixed use. What we are encouraging, what we are considering is that we're going to do mixed use and create that, you know, vibrant environment. We're gonna set minimums to get them higher densities. Um, professional offices stay the same. Light industrial essentially stays the same. The underlying text sort of reflects what we've kind of been doing for commercial and light industrial and heavy industrial too. But a new category that the staff is considering is a mixed use. So because it's a brand new category, none, it doesn't exist anywhere. In order for someone to ask for that, they'd have to go through the whole process. And that gives us an opportunity to look at the context of where that's going and see whether or not it fits if the infrastructure's there, the transportation's there, the connections are there, sidewalk systems. So it gives us an opportunity to have something unique to that location. So it's just something to think about and, and we'll keep going. We can come back to that later housing. Um, we wanna create opportunities for housing resources to, to provide adequate housing supply, um, including housing for special need populations and more vulnerable populations like our seniors. Um, a couple objectives, what we'd like to do is, is create this live here, grow here program where we are an attractive city. We want our young people to come stay and thrive, and they're thriving because their housing are located next to jobs, next to shopping, next to retail, next to entertainment, next to schools, next to mode choices. That's, that's the goal, is having our housing. When we talk about housing, look at all those other other, um, factors. We also have a goal of protecting, I'm sorry, an objective of protecting our residential character. Um, now I don't want, I, me personally don't want this to be misunderstood, to say we are residential and we don't want anything else. That's not what, what this is for. This is protecting residential character, but also, you know, bringing in development in a context sensitive, um, situation. We also wanna make sure that we're looking at our housing stock and looking at infill opportunities. Um, and that's going to be through the future land use map and through the land development code. Um, improving housing diversity. We don't want to say we just want a lot of affordable housing. We want to have housing diversity. So it's not just your choice isn't just single family towns, homes or apartments. There are other housing opportunities that we can look at as part of the comp plan as part of the vision. Now the other thing to keep in mind when you're looking at, um, if you're new to comp planning, we make these statements as if we are in 2045. So some of these things, like you don't foresee it happening in the next five years. This is how these objectives and goals and the policies that you'll see in the near future. It's written as if we are in 2045. So it's written, um, it'll be written in a, in the present tense. Um, objective four is making sure that we have the abil ability to provide affordable housing. Um, it may not be the city's going to provide the affordable housing. It may, it would be the city is going to provide resources so that there is opportunities for affordable housing. Um, and then of course keeping, um, keeping an eye on our senior housing opportunities because our seniors also need housing, Parks and recreation. Um, kudos to Ginger and, and Mark and his team. They've done a massive inventory of all of our parks, the parking spaces, the, you know, all the number of courts, the number of fields, the number of everything. So the, this element is much further along there than the rest of us. So, um, the goal is to make sure that our parks and recreation system is accessible, it's comprehensive, it's inclusive. And inclusive in this instance is, um, creating play spaces for children, um, that are, or populations that have special needs, whether it's, you know, braille site limited, um, people or physical limitations, all those things. We wanna make that, um, we want our parks to be embracive for everybody. The, and again, the overall goal is to provide a healthy recreation environment, um, for all ages and abilities. So, um, objective one is making sure that the system is comprehensive and that is planned. Um, for those of you who are here in March or for the, the two who are weren't here in March, in the data analysis, there was maps that shows the existing park systems and a two mile buffer at one mile buffer, half mile, quarter mile. So we can see how our parks are connected to each other, where they're located spatially to each other. And also identifying barriers. Like you could have a park within a half mile, but you've gotta cross Clark co road to get to it. Then it's not really accessible if you are, you know, 10 years old. So those are the things that we are looking at to make sure that it's not just there, but it's there and it's accessible. Um, so this flight is in here specifically because we, I wanted to discuss, um, the level of service. Right now, our level of service for parks is four acres per thousand. The NRPA, national Recreation of Parks Association guideline for a population. So the, the guideline looks at cities based on metrics and it's based on population. So for ours it's that 70 to, what is it, ginger, 70 to, We basically got 15 under 50 to 70. Yeah, 50 to 70. So we have been under 50 now we're in that, that 50 to 75. And what that's looking at is 11 acres per person. Um, with all the, the analysis that Ginger and the team has done where if you look at all the acreages, um, we're close to eight. So what this comp plan would do is adopt eight, but moving forward, we want to still work towards, um, getting to the 11, right? That it's the 11, right? It's 2.2 per thousand. I should put my glasses on. So, um, yeah, Yeah. So we we're adopting a standard that we can, real realistically achieve, it's double what we currently are. Our goal is our level of service goal is, but we are still progressively trying to get to that higher number, which is what the N-F-R-P-A, um, I'm sorry. The N-R-P-A-I combined National Fire and National Recreation together. Um, what that manual is suggesting as a common benchmark for all municipalities, that with populations between 50 to 70 will be at that 74 mark. So that's what, what all of this says. So our existing acreage is their, um, proposed acreage, and this takes into consideration all of the city's properties. Is there anything else I that you want me to add on this one? Okay. All right. Um, health and wellbeing. So, sometime ago there was, the state had was really big on health impact analysis. That's sort of gone away. But what we want is for our parks to create systems for creating health and wellbeing for our residents. Um, so we wanna provide those facilities and programs and services. Um, objective three is, again, access, accessibility and connectivity, making sure that those programs, facilities, and services are working together. There's no duplication, there's connections, um, utilizing our trail systems. And I think we just adopted the na, our city trails. Right? The one that you worked on when I first started here. Oh, That was basically the regional plan. Yes. But we do have trails planned that will be part Of this. Yes. So there's a regional trail system and our own trail system, and hopefully all of those will connect to each other, like blueford is a trail system, part of the trail system. Um, one thing that's important in here is optimizing our existing, existing trails, identifying where they, those are, and then finding the gaps and hopefully connecting the dots. Um, the fourth objective is facility planning and development. So where there's lacking, there's, based on that parks heat map, we'll see where those gaps are, and then work towards filling those gaps with new, new, um, facilities. Objective five, resource management, sustainability and stewardship. You know, we wanna protect what we have. And then of course, you can't have it without funding. So six is funding. All right. That was chapter two, chapter three. Um, I'm gonna sit by that a little bit faster. It's infrastructure. So water, sewer, reclaim water. The way it's written now, there's one goal for it, um, is basically to provide a high quality water sewer, reclaim water service while protecting the environment and ensuring public health and safety. Um, the, um, the first two objectives deal with capacity for utility service. So that's all three of those service types. And the funding for utility service, again, all three of those service types. Um, three is water conservation, so focusing on reuse and reclaim. Um, the next couple of objectives deal specifically with, for example, four is portable water, five is sewer. Um, six is the nutrient load in our, um, sewer system, and then prioritizing our water resources. So basically, whatever what resources we have is limited, or is based on our consumptive use permit with the St. John's River Water Management District, Uh, storm water drainage. Um, right now, surprisingly, there's no level of service standard for drainage. So this complement element will create a level of service standard for drainage. It's, it deals all about the resiliency, protecting our waterways and storm water systems relative to drainage. So, objective one is storm water management, um, making sure that our program is, is functioning and moving forward, and the maintenance and the polarizations of improvements are, are going the way we want it to go. Water quality deals with how we're protecting our water resources. Um, flood resiliency, again, going back to our ability to, um, you know, do well and, and be sustainable when there's a flood situation. Uh, agency coordination is required by statutes so that, that, um, objective is in there. And then our, um, city engineer is working on some policies for a Archiva Parkway Protection Act. Um, that's also required by statutes. Mobility, again, formally the transportation element, again, we want to create connected systems for moving people and goods, not cars, um, in a safe and efficient way. Objective one is context sensitive standards. So, um, several community, other communities are going away from the typical FDLT level service, you know, A-A-B-C-D-E-F. Um, we want to go more towards context. So the, the model, the system looks at not just the road and how it's designed and built, um, but also the context of the land user land uses around them. So our comp plan is going in that direction as well. And the goal for that is to look at automobiles, um, bicycles, pedestrians, automobiles includes motorcycles, um, bicycles and pedestrians and how they travel. Um, making sure that, um, we have policies in place to help create those travel routes more connected in order to reduce the number of vehicles on the road, reduce the number of vehicles traveled. So if from point A to point B is closer, because we create connections, they don't have to go all the way around. You know, that one mile trip doesn't, that five mile trip doesn't become five miles. It could just be one mile. Um, but doing it in a, um, environmentally friendly, environmentally sensitive way. Um, objective two is safety and efficiency. You'll, you are seeing like the overall arching thing, safe, efficient, connected, comprehensive. It's all working together. Um, we wanna coordinate. I mean, the, right now there's no, there's no specific objective that says, Hey, transportation plan, look at your future land use plan. So we wanna have that connection. There's a specific goal to coordinate our transportation with our land use. Um, mixed into that is everything that, you know, the whole chicken and egg, is it land use that comes first? Or is it transportation that comes first, but what happens to everything else in between housing, employment patterns, development patterns, and things like that. Um, again, can't do it without funding. So four is, um, setting the, the guidelines for, um, guiding our decision making for a fiscally efficient transportation investment. So we wanna look at how we're funding those improvements. Well, funding those two sort of tie together. Um, I think when we look at this, we'll also be looking at not just the city's funding, but federal, state, regional resources. Um, but this by itself is, you know, um, it's not just our funding. It's, it's the other resources that we have. All right, chapter five, community Resiliency. There's a whole lot to read there, but the whole crux of this is to protect our natural resources to either preserving it, rehabilitating it, um, or reconstructing it. Um, the goal first is to just not go into it. The next thing is, if we have to impact it, we want to mitigate for our impacts, um, and then if possible, replace it someplace else. And we wanna protect our biodiversity in the city. So the first step is to minimize development. The next step or objective, there are kind of steps if you look at it, if you reach just the titles, priority one would be minimize the development impacts. Um, objective two would be to protect water quality. Objective three would be protect wetlands, um, than species and habitat. Um, and then air quality. So those are the different aspects of our environment that we wanna protect. And the last chapter, um, schools probably not too much is going to change. We currently have a schools element. Um, we might just update any references to statutes that are no longer, um, existing, um, update dates and things like that. Any policies that have been achieved already, we'll probably remove those. We want to create conformance, um, with our school concurrency and interlocal agreement that we have with Orange County and the school board. Um, something new is alternative mitigation. Um, developing strategies through coordination with OCPS to give our development, new development coming in, opportunities to mitigate their school's impacts instead of just necessarily creating capacity school facilities. Planning, again, coordinating with OCPS as far as their tenure district capital outlay plan. Um, continuing education. That's a new objective that we want to introduce. It's creating partnerships to facilitate the availability and opportunities for educational facilities, um, that will support economic development. And it's, it's to train our workforce. Go back to that previous slide. Yes, the element is responsible governance, but the, the, the four is, so if you go back to the previous, Which one Up to the see of the environment that's under the four. Wait, four. The heading? Yeah, the heading on it. Oh, here on The slide. Which one are you referring To? The one you went to the school. Oh. Oh, I'm sorry. My bad. That's supposed to say governance right up here. There's my mouse right here. Mm-Hmm. The next slide has Great. Yeah, don't look at the text. Look at the boxes. I'm sorry. Thank you, Mike. I did not catch that at all. Um, all right. Litigation, yes. Objective four is to create facilities for continued education for those, you know, people who may have not gotten their high school diploma, you know, need to get GEDs or other technical training, things like that. We don't want to exclude that. And there it is again, Ignore that Community resiliency title. The intergovernmental coordination that's required by statutes is to make sure that we have goals, objectives, and policies in place to where we are coordinating and communicating with our sister agencies, sister cities, the county, any community where our project and our decisions impact their ability, their resources. Um, for example, if you, we have a big project that, that impacts a water system that will flood, go downhill and flood somebody else. You know, we just wanna coordinate with that, or traffic, right? Transportation, roads don't stop. The cars don't stop. When it goes to the city boundaries, they still keep going. So, intergovernmental coordination is to make sure that the, the state wants us to coordinate with other agencies. Um, agreements and information sharing, the collaborative decision making. Those are our, our objectives. Um, capital improvements element. Again, it's required. We want to be as timely, efficient, and cost effective as possible. Um, going back to what I had mentioned earlier about the growing pains, going to 74,000, like if you, for from March, you'll remember that we are growing at an average of, uh, 1100 to 1400 persons per year. They're coming. They're gonna, they're gonna, they're gonna come just like people say they're coming to Florida still. They're, they're coming here as well. And we need to plan for that. Um, it may sit, create situations where some parts of the city where the infrastructure is all there, the public investments are all there, and the land is sitting underutilized. It may be an opportunity for compact, more dense environments or development. Um, and some folks within a half mile may not be happy about that. But if you're in the core of the city where all the infrastructure, millions of investment, millions of dollars in investments in place, we don't want four units an acre, right? So, um, capital improvements. The goal is to maintain our adoptable service to have a coordinated decision making process where our fiscal resources are used to its best advantage. Oh, that was it. I thought I had two more objectives, but that's pretty much it. Um, public facilities, I'm sorry, the private property rights was the last element I didn't include, because that is literally just cutting language from the state statutes and plop it into the comp plan that was adopted two years ago, so that we were not, we will not be touching that. So I guess that's it. We'll have discussion, get your feedback, and I'm gonna go all the way back to the beginning. These are just some big ideas. So you're seeing, we're trying to trim down the comprehensive plan from a document that's this big to this big. What you're gonna start thinking about, we hope, you know, when, you know, when you go to sleep or hope you're thinking about comp plan goals, but kind of, you know, think of items. There's policies. Sometimes, uh, what you're thinking about is, would be facilitated in a policy, not necessarily a goal. And if that policy, if what you're thinking about, uh, if you have a concern or an item, if we can fit it in a policy, we want to do that, not create another goal and come up with policies for that. So what I mean by that is, uh, we don't wanna necessarily put date certain items in the comprehensive plan, uh, by such and such date, because then that date is old. You know, by 2027, do this. Well, after 20 28, 20 29, that policy's, uh, no longer relevant. And so, uh, a lot of what you see and encounter might be things like, okay, a notch. When you talk about, uh, for instance, the context classification, okay? If you're on, if you're on the sidewalk on State Road 50, think about what type of activity you would be doing on the sidewalk. Would you be gingerly walking your dog and possibly your grand grandchild? Would you be riding your bike with, you know, air pods in? Or would you more custom seeing somebody that's putting in 80 miles riding there? What, which, what? That's the context. Where does that person, if we want to create that opportunity for you to walk your dog and walk your grandchild, that's more of what like Blueford Avenue would have, right? So what is that context? That's what we wanna work to, is create the context that we want, and then we can build the street, the sidewalks and the built environment around it. Mm-Hmm. That, that's sort of context. That's a really cool idea. Instead of saying, we're a d you know, you know, we're on our way to an E road, but we wanna make the road a d Well, no, we can do context. We can show you visual what that means so you can grasp the understanding. Yeah. So the level of service that we're going towards context class is based on not the ability, the capacity of the road in terms of trips, how many trips that road is designed and built for, um, and the posted speed. It's based on the level of stress, the level of stress of the driver for the road, the vehicular level of service standard, and the level of stress for the pedestrian bicyclist on sidewalks. And that's, for example, based on how separated is that pedestrian from the roadway, you know, are there physical barriers or are there, is it there just a curb, soft shoulder, things like that. That's what context, um, classification considers Mm-Hmm. Now, when we present you the comprehensive plan in the public hearing for your recommendation for transmittal, we'll give you more time. You'll not receive it on a Thursday and discuss it on a Tuesday. We'll, we'll get it to you in, in plenty of time so you can, uh, really evaluate this stuff, right. And ask some questions. Okay. What's that? Oh, 'cause I'm, oh my God. Yeah. Didn't see this on the agenda. I'm like, what was it? So This, this is story in drafting. Yeah. We, we wanted to discuss it and present it, and we're Kinda showing you the next step. This is where we're gonna end up, is this, these documents, we'll kind of show you in the public hearing what's currently adopted and what we're proposing, and go into the meat and potatoes. It'll be a longer meeting. And then at the end, yes, we hope to get a vote. We may do it in two parts or just one part. You'll have sandwiches that night, right? Yeah, exactly. Food written though. So you'll adjust some discussion or feedback now, or Yeah, if you, yes. Okay. So a couple Items in particular we really wanted to discuss point out, like where we're thinking with, uh, density. Right. That that's a good, just, yeah. So, so my question is, I know it was mentioned in the slides, it talked about the identity of Koi. So where do we have defined what we want that identity to be? So, um, in 2017, there was an evaluation and appraisal report where community input was received. We have the documentation, um, in that, there was, there were, I wanna say four or five focus areas that our residents in 2017 said that we wanted to the city to prioritize. Um, the identity will will come from that. I think it's still on the table. Whether or not we'll have a community workshop or not, that's gonna be up to city management if we do that or not. Um, but a lot of this legwork has been done in 2017, where those community meetings have already happened. And this, this effort, we don't create and spell out what the community identity is. We, this goal is to work towards keeping a community identity. 'cause it may mean different things to different people, but generally it's gonna be safe safety, right? Generally it's gonna be the opportunity to what's the, the grow and, Oh, live and live here, grow here, Live here, grow here. Mm-Hmm. What does that mean? Right? Yes. So you wanna live here. You want your, your kids to grow up here. We want them to stay here. We want their kids. So we gotta have good schools. We gotta have good recreation. We gotta have opportunities. We want 'em to like, to come to a downtown. We want 'em to, to go to the north area of the city. When go to the south area of the city, we wanna have medical opportunities, uh, age and place opportunities, those type of items for the, for the identity. Okay. Right. At the same time, you know, your ideal city might look like this. Someone else's, another property owner's ideal city may look like that. And that's why the property, the private property rights element says that basically the, the summary of it is your rights to enjoy your property can't infringe on the rights of someone else to enjoy their property. So, as an example, if you moved to the city, maybe let's say two years ago, 'cause you just love this, this wooded area behind you, and you moved there because you wanna live in that wood environment, then well, it might change. Or if you come here because you were in a big city and you wanna have a more small town environment, well, we don't know if the city can still stay that way because we're growing. It, it, we, we can't stop people from coming based on the projections, um, between Bieber, the US census, the American Community Survey, um, the water supply plan, our utilities, um, projections, our transportation projections, we're still gonna be growing at an average of a thousand residents per year. Um, so we want to make sure that we can't, at the end of the day, um, there isn't gonna be any policy, policy decision that's going to make both sides of the table happy. Mm-Hmm. It's, it's rare that that will happen. The best that we can do at staff level is create policies that considers all of the different factors from an objective perspective, and then where we can put in those, those more subjective perspective to try to have, um, some compromise or some consensus. So consensus doesn't necessarily mean I a hundred percent agree with you. It is, it just means that, okay, I hate this, but I know that you have the right to develop your property. So I'm willing to live with this. Are you willing to compromise with me who will work with me? So it's, it's sometimes challenging to write policies that's going to fit every situation, but at the end of the day, the city is responsible. We are a municipal business. We're responsible for making sure that we are providing municipal services in a fair way, that we are, um, effectively and efficiently utilizing the city's dollars and making those investments to the benefit of all the residents and property owners, you know, just to be in a comprehensive and a and effective way. Did you have another question, Mr. Chico? I, I do. I don't want to hijack the, go ahead. Okay. So, um, thinking those 20 years, um, out, it is a fact that it's good to get warmer, right? So, um, should we be including that? 'cause I saw, like in the resiliency, uh, we talk about protecting the environment, but we don't talk about preparing the city for those times when, when the temperatures will go out, go up. So if we're like, we have a nice sidewalk, it's bigger, we can have people in the streets, but if it's too warm or too hot, I know we talk about, uh, reducing the heat island Mm-Hmm. But, uh, what other, putting other elements in place Yes. To help. So, um, right now we have, when projects come in, our, um, floodplains administrator with public works, he's the person that is taking the lead role in the conservation element. Um, he has actually done a lot of research and looked at a lot of different communities, not just in Florida, but all over the United States. Um, one of the things that we are, what he has done is, um, you, there's software out there and technologies out there to take a, a, um, um, an urban canopy of the level of tree canopy that city, the city currently has. Right now we're at 30%. Um, with each new project that comes in, we don't have it in code to require them to preserve 30%. We are just encouraging them and working with them to design the site so that they keep the trees that they can. And where, where there's opportunity to plant more trees, that's what we're asking for. So if you have 30% build your project and try to keep net 30%, um, and, and keep reducing heat islands may not just necessarily be trees. It could be, you know, hardscape, things like that. Mm-Hmm. Also, you had a, um, one thing every eight years you have to evaluate your comp plan. It's called an ear evaluation and rep appraisal report. Seven years, every seven years. Yes. You go back and look at it and see how you're meeting obligations. And it also gives you an opportunity to, to do some updates. Uh, back in around 2011, they passed legislation that all the comprehensive, all the comprehensive plans had to have a green, uh, Greenhouse gas Emission greenhouse. Well, uh, uh, an element on that. And, and then as soon as they adopted that law, people were putting out best management practices, and they were adopting their code that you had to do energy star buildings and golds lead certified. And, and then it was very costly, and it wasn't working the way they thought. So they repealed that requirement. And so it's, uh, you don't want to put a lot of information and a lot of policy and objectives that o over you over the over time, or you, it's, they're too hard to implement. So what we're doing is we're introducing that in this, in our 20 year plan. And then what we would, I would say we would wanna do, we can look at that, we can look at some policies, but you wanna really look and see how things are changing, uh, emerging technologies. And then when you get to that seven year ear, you can say, we have now in our comprehensive plan, we look at resiliency, we look at those things, how are we doing? What can we do better? But you want to kind of shy away from doing very specific things that are kind of, you know, you see on the internet now, because that might not be lasting in, you Know. No, I, I agree with that. But as we build Mm-Hmm. The city, like, again, I, I put the example of the, uh, wide, um, sidewalks, which is now a trend so people can Mm-Hmm. It's a more walkable city. People can go out from one place to the other, meet, meet your community, et cetera. Um, but then as we build that, uh, looking for making sure that we take into account how to prepare ourselves for 20 years from now when those temperatures are going to be higher Mm-Hmm. So we're not just creating up pavements that Right. Everybody will be able to. Right. Enjoy. If I can, uh, ginger corless, when we're actually going through the objectives and the policies, actually throughout the comp plan elements, you'll be starting to see the, uh, looking to those best practices that Mike was speaking to. Um, we are all very pro, pro. Your staff has this unbelievable amount of knowledge and professionalism, but we also recognize what we can also achieve. So we are writing into those objectives, and in those policy, those opportunities or where we can take a look, how we can provide shade, provide how we can provide sitting areas, how can we can provide our parks, um, making sure that we're doing it in a green sensitive manner. So we are writing those things in there, uh, to be able to achieve those. Same thing as when we're looking at our parks of looking at rain gardens versus as swale, how can we treat our environment, our public infrastructure in a ma a manner that really teaches others by looking at what we're doing of what can be done. And I think that you're gonna be seeing through the land development code, additional guidance when it comes to development from, uh, LID or low intensity development type of standards to other components. So you're gonna be seeing that. Uh, but we also recognize we have to look at that fiscal responsibility at the same time. So we have this balance that we have to do. Yeah. And I think things in the knowledge now are, are really able for us as a city to start doing those things. And a lot of those things are actually things that we've actually done and just not recognize. And we need to be able to show those and to celebrate those. And, and that's why I was saying, if I don't see anything in the goals and objectives, if we're providing that vision, maybe it's something that, because I understand balancing fiscal responsibility and those objectives, but if right now there's fiscal responsibility not the objective, and there's not a balance, what We've done is a vision for the comp plan is what this comp plan's supposed to do. We do not technically are not saying this is the vision of the, you know, the city, so to speak. But I do think that that vision kinda states what we're trying to do through this guidance and this governance components with that. So you're just, Yeah. So for example, um, it won't be just in the conservation. It could also be in parks, creating those connections and making them, uh, and dealing with people of all abilities and ages. Mm-Hmm. A half mile walk for a senior, a senior citizen or a child is much further perspective wise than a half mile walk for, you know, myself and Miranda, I'm Glad you changed it to yourself. I am over the 50 hump, so I, I guess I'm, I'm there. Um, but some aspect of that, for example, is to place a bench so that the senior can can look at taking that walk and they know that I have a place to sit down and rest. Then the next step could be, oh, we need to shade that bench. Or maybe we can plant, there's a stretch of a half a mile here, no bench, no shade, proper tree there. You know, those are the things, it's not going to be spelled out to that level of specificity in the goals and objectives, but the objectives could be provide, you know, the ability to, to walk safely. Interesting. The vision, if you look at the vision, Okay. The vision for the plan. Yeah. There, This, this states a lot right here. Mm-Hmm. Yep. You see those buzz words. We keep saying the vibrant, the attractive, economically sustainable. We want to thrive at the same time as we are speaking to the diverse and compact and, and quality development, the complimentary land uses. So when we spend a lot of time looking at this vision statement, because we're taking this one statement and taking this book and trying to say, here's what we're doing, and I think this says a lot of what you were speaking to. Yeah. And then the details will be in the code. And you don't want to have policies that are so stringent that they have to do a request, a text amendment, which has to go to the state to do, to change. But certainly write your thought down. So when you, you get to this mm-Hmm. You can say, uh, what about this buzzword? What about this concept? Does it fit in a goal, objective, or policy? Mm-Hmm. And if it, if we can put it in the objective, or if it's a policy, how do we facilitate that object? Write those down. Mm-Hmm. In the, in the code itself. Yep. Mr. Forges, you had, Um, just more comments than, than question, um, density. In your opinion, are we underdeveloped as a city? Are we underdeveloped as a c? Are We Underdeveloped? Underdeveloped? Do You have anything? Well, I mean, we, we increasing My personal opinion. Yeah. My, my personal opinion as a planner, um, the best way for a community, a municipality, again, municipalities, you gotta think of it as a business as well, is to maximize resources. So when you go to what makes a city successful, right? It's a vibrant, active, daytime, nighttime, downtown, but you don't expect to see the downtown atmosphere in the peripheral of the city. So, are we underdeveloped? Maybe yes. Maybe no, but it's context based. So in our, our main downtown where we've invested all this infrastructure, four units an acre for me would be underdeveloped because okay, you, you, you get more bang for your investment bucks if you have more people utilizing it. And, and, you know, adding to the tax revenue. And if I can add something and density when we is not just putting out, you know, the vertical elements, but if we don't provide this compact development, we can't have those open spaces. Right? Right. We can't maintain that greenery. We can't maintain those things that we're really trying to do. Hence why having that compact development, we're able to actually maximize the resources that we have. Mm-Hmm. But also protect our resources that we value so much. Right. Uh, you'll see a lot of communities in Europe as well is now movements through America to where we're trying to have a more village type of center component cluster development, so that we're able to stave our, our natural resources and actually help create community. Right. It'll be nice, right? If you, for example, horizon West, not to throw Orange County up into the atmosphere, but if you're living in Horizon or just anywhere west, maybe Midwest west, I don't know, you wouldn't necessarily want to live where, if you wanted anything at all, you have to drive to it, right? You want to, especially our younger generation, you they'd want to live in a location where they can walk down the street, say hello to their friends, go have a cup of coffee, run some errands, do whatever, um, and then maybe work in the area, maybe drive to work in the, or take the bike to get to work, what have you. Um, those types of improvements are like little, little nodes. So I wouldn't expect the downtown o Coe to be in Arden Park in the middle of Arden Park. Um, but at Arden Park, if you're in the center, you'd have to get out and drive to wherever you wanna go, even if it's just to go, you know, buy something. The closest would be Publix or something like that. But wouldn't it be great if you're living in a little village where you can take a little short bicycle pedestrian trip to, to get some, some basic community, neighborhood, um, uh, resources. Okay. I'm, I'm, again, I'm all for the increased density because I do believe that with a low density, you can have less investors that wanna come in because there's not a density for them to come in and thrive. Let me, real, real quick, I'm sorry. I totally did not mean to, to interrupt you. No, please. I failed to mention that we are currently right alongside this is updating our land development code where, 'cause when people think of high density, they think of big ugly apartment buildings and all that stuff. But depending on, and what our code we are consulting with that is you could have a multifamily development when you're driving down the street. It looks just like a really nice McMansion. So it really depends on the architecture, the scale, the design, the environment around it, where you can sort of dis not disguise density, but mix it into the context without actually calling it out as high density. 'cause for, for, for some, it might be a stigma that high density is apartments and those people, um, but it may be an opportunity for housing that those people, that's what they want. Um, or that's what they don't have a choice for. I've worked with a gentleman before who's retired from two careers. He prefers an apartment and he's, he's, he joined my team in another jurisdiction in the last five years of his, his career life. Um, and he has lived in the 3000 square foot home in other states, and he wants to live in an apartment. So just because it's a rental doesn't necessarily mean that it's, it's, it's bad. It's just another housing opportunity for our residents. Um, so yeah, density can look like one acre, lots. Density is one of the things that killed, that helped to kill farming in the United States. A hundred acre farms chopped up into single acre lots. That was something that I had to deal with when I was a planner for Jackson County, one of the biggest counties, land area wise in the state of Florida. But the farming area there was just being destroyed by developments coming in, loading zero residential, four units an acre, quarter acre loss, just a half acre loss, just killing the farming industry in that county. So it can, density doesn't have to be something that's ugly, it's just how it's designed. And we are putting in code standards that's going to make that number of units that housing establishment fit into the context. Because you could walk by an office building, it looks like a house, but it's actually an office building. Okay. Alright. Okay. Does anybody else have any questions? I just, I have one question. Um, in one of the slides you mentioned that you plan on doubling the, um, they needed to double the parks, uh, to go into like a half a mile to two mile to walk. Okay. Um, do we have the city, the space to be able to do that? Yes. Actually remember, um, when we speak to the parks and they go into the park, i, I, I can speak all day about parks where rec and open space. So good, good. I Play her elements almost done all that long. Um, but, but, but when we take a look at, you're not just looking at our city parks, but we're gonna be looking at our developments because we wanna make sure that there's opportunities for people to recreate both publicly and privately from the standpoint. Therefore, in our private developments, having those recreational and open space elements, they're gonna make that a higher quality development. Right? Right. That they're providing those services for the people that live there Themselves in that. So yes. Apartment. So one of the things I'm actually recommending that we look at is that a resident, this is a national movement and it's being done throughout the nation, is a 10 minute walk that a resident should be able to reach a park within a 10 minute walk. Now that's usually about a half a mile. So we are looking at those, but then we're not saying those have to be city parks. Correct. And when you're gonna start finding, as a community grows with parks and recreation, you have to have that private element. But then the public element starts becoming this, this resource of collection of facilities, both what I call passive or natural or resource based. And that is activity based. Are those things that are manmade. So yes, I think we can do it. Um, I think you, we have to look at it a little outside in the normal box that I'm not saying every city park is gonna be within a half a mile walk. It's not gonna happen. But we can achieve the recreation. One of the things about recreation, I'm gonna say this here, so I want you to think about that, is Covid actually did a great thing for the field of parks and recreation and open space. 'cause where do people go? Where do people want to go Outside to the parks, Outside the parks? And that is so important to a community. We lose that, those, those open space areas, those parks, those areas that we can either stroll by ourselves are, are kind of socialize. 'cause socialize is extremely important part of wellness. And again, I can talk about this all day. So yes, I think with a plan and guidance we can achieve that. What else? Um, I was just hoping, um, referring back to chapter number two, um, mm-Hmm. Just some more clarification on the, I believe it's called the live here grow here. Mm-Hmm. Yes. Um, so this, this is all a little bit new here 'cause of course we didn't see this PowerPoint. Um, D did, does that go off or does that happen to tie in, um, to the, to the live local act? Any, no, no, that's, that's completely Sentence. Absolutely not. It's anything different. We, we came up with this concept before, before the live local act came out. Okay. Perfect. Perfect. Then. Um, the, the goal here is, and it's, it's a, a program that we are looking to create, um, for O coa, where we want o coa to be the place where everybody wants to come. Um, which of course drives, you know, population numbers. Mm-Hmm. But we wanted to grow in a sustainable way. We want people, or even like our young people, you know, koi High School beats my son's high school and football too many times. Um, so Koi is known for sports and recreation. td was it TN XL T in xl. So ACO is known for recreation, um, it's sports program, things like that. Um, we also, we also have a good number of parks and resources. Um, we're con we got the West Orange trail running through us. So we want at the, at the least, you know, consider we have generations of people who live here, born and raised, um, their kids, their grandkids. It would be nice if we can keep our population and it would be nice if once our kids graduate, um, go off to college, gain that knowledge, come back and bring those highways jobs here and, and grow here. But That also means as we get more gray hair, We need a place for that to go. We Also need a place for, you know, for us to grow old here. So growing means all different things and providing for different parts of our community. Mm-Hmm. Because it's very important that we do come together as one. Alright. Anybody else? That was a great presentation. Thank you very much. Yes, thank you. You're welcome. Appreciate it. All right, next up. Uh, old businesses. None. New businesses. None. Miscellaneous project status with Mr. Rumor. Any questions on, uh, developments that you've seen going on or want to know any? Uh, we've, we've got, um, uh, there are the Regency project on the west side of McGuire over along the turnpike. Uh, where to, I mean, uh, where, uh, old Winter Garden Road terminates, they are, we were told today that's moving forward. They want to have their construction meeting. And so that will provide some retail and some more rooftops in the area. Um, we are, uh, finished up a couple of projects that were under construction. Uh, for a while. We had the warehouse down here on Blueford. That's finalized. Everything's checked off. And we also had it for the Hampton Inn, uh, hotel on State Road 50. We are anticipating any day now that they will start construction on the Cambria Hotel over in the CRA. They're working on it, uh, which is over there behind the A, B, C and seven 11 and all that stuff. So there's gonna be a hotel there. Yes. And that's okay. Yep. What The kids with the roundabout, right? Yeah. Behind the OBOB kids that's on Bluford. Yeah. With the roundabout and everything. Uh, the city will be constructing the roundabout as part of the Bluford Avenue Street. CRA. Yeah. The CRA has is taking that on as a project. So at Main Street and Blueford, there will be a roundabout in the future. Yeah. Uh, any updates on the owners of, uh, what they call city center? Has that made Any? Yep. Nothing. Nothing. Okay. No. Cool. All Wawa's broken ground Wawa's Broken ground siding. Yes. You got metal up In the air. It's gonna be, I can't believe how quick they've put the metal up. It's not, it's easy, man. Anybody got anything else for, uh, staff? Is it pickleball people coming back? Yes. They will be coming back or they, they have, yes. They submitted a revised plan under, yep. Do you want to take a few minutes to talk about what happened, uh, about the live local stuff that was talked about at the last commission meeting? You want to give a just a quick few minutes on it? Just some high levels. Like I check out the mic. I've got so much going on with that. I don't wanna misspeak. Uh, Do you want me to, uh, talk about that a little bit? Uh, our live local ordinance was approved Yes, yes, Yes. Unanimously by the city commission. And I gave a presentation explaining what the live local act requires. A local governments, uh, for example, density is measured municipality wide. And so if, if, um, high density residential allows 16 units an acre, a qualifying live local ACT project, uh, is entitled to 16 units an acre height is measured at the highest of either three stories or the highest building within a one mile radius of where you are in our ordinance. Uh, we determine that we ought to measure that one mile in human terms and not as the crow flies because we are, in fact, humans. We get into a, a, a car, a motor vehicle, and we drive from one place to the other, and we will actually measure it in accordance with, uh, in the traveled lanes of the city. We set forth in our ordinance, the zoning districts in which live local projects can be built. They're C one through C3, and then I one and I two, uh, there was a developer who came in and wanted to do a live local act projects, uh, on PUD zoned property. And the city came to the conclusion that PUD zoning is not appropriate under the live local act. And I gave a whole presentation why, in fact, uh, it is not appropriate, including, uh, a, an effort, uh, in the Florida legislature to open up the, uh, zoning classifications that arguably could include PE UD zoning and that effort died. Uh, anything else, Mike? No. Just kind of some of the fuzzy gray areas of the local act. This kind of set the, the parameters and kind of reminds the developers that, you know, the live local act gives you the administrative right. In those zoning districts to have a project, but you still are bound by our land development code, uh, policies and, and such. So, Oh, see, I was under the impression they can basically develop anywhere. Okay. So when C3 and IC one to C3, and I Right. I one and I two, and because, and because the developer's still bound by all the laws and regulations of the city, they must adhere to our landscaping standards. They must adhere to our aesthetic standards, uh, everything. And in fact, uh, preliminary and final site and plan approvals still will require a public hearing. Cool. The, the other, um, limitation that we have in our ordinance is that if they can't utilize densities or heights that were given to another project based on, um, conditions of approval or bonuses or things that have been negotiated by the city, There's gonna be some other items, some other items coming up in future agendas as well. Okay. Is, is, is, are you ever gonna see anything where we set setbacks, side setbacks, or any of those type of ordinances where you put different setback, uh, requirements for projects like that? Uh, in our land development code update, we will be adjusting setbacks. So for instance, um, on traditional setbacks in your traditional residential zonings, uh, with the traditional setbacks, open space, stormwater requirements, roads, sidewalks, drainage, you don't ever achieve four units an acre at best. 3.5, 3.2, 3.3. So if we're gonna be looking at being able to go to five dwelling units an acre, we wanna look at, uh, that, that form in, in, in the context of more urban areas. That does, we don't need a seven and a half foot side setback. A 25 foot front setback. Yes. We are gonna be looking at and promo, uh, proposing, uh, new setbacks for zoning districts, which would be lower in a sense. Yeah. In many cases it'll be lower. Mm-Hmm. Increase density, increased density. Great. That's Great. Good question. Thank you. Yep. Anybody else? Alright. In that case, we'll, uh, we'll call it adjourned. Thank you. Think that that's.