##VIDEO ID:NSxdQk976T4## test test test you can hear itting for me I also have it on here too that's cop in compliance with the open public meetings law a notification of this meeting has been sent to our official newspapers and other Publications circulated in the Barrow Vol toan and notice has been posted on the bulton board of borrow Hall please note all meetings are video taped and posted on the website fire exits are located at the main entrance of the council chambers and in the rear of the council chambers everybody please stand to salute the flag I pled aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands indivisible andice a roll call Pres here here Arrow here Mr Eller here Mr here mran M Mr prer here yes we we have a quum okay make sure all right um like to see if there's an opportunity to open the meeting to the public for non agenda items anybody with a motion motion all in favor anybody in the public have anything that they want to talk about that's not on our agenda for today seeing none motion to close second all in favor all right um imagining no environmental commission report tonight Council the aison report Christine thank you Mr President um few things going on Town some really wonderful things in October um first of all last night the ultan firefighters and ultan EMS hosted their annual safety night um last night the firehouse and at the uh M headquarters um October is a busy month there's a lot going on around town uh to attend and enjoy in addition the mayor's wellness program continues with its speaker series on Thursday October 17th at the ultan library at 7:00 p.m. on the topic of Eating Disorders on Saturday October 19th our annual superhero 5K will once again be hitting the streets of ultan in support of our police fire and EMS First Responders please consider running or walking an event or just come out and say thanks as they pass by all donations help each organization provide oldan with their essential Services we recognize ultan as breast cancer awareness month and on the 10th which is tomorrow I believe we recognize World mental health day please keep everyone in your thoughts and prayers as they deal with these debilitating health conditions on Sunday October 20th ultan will be celebrating its 130th birthday we're having a party at the firehouse from 2 to 4:30 so please join us as we celebrate the town's birthday and lastly our Halloween festivities will be taking place on Saturday October 26th at Oaks Park starting off with the Ann annual ragamuffin parade and the day will continue with everyone enjoying a hay ride getting lost in the hay maze and all the games that will be available finishing off the day we will have a double feature movie night and this is all at Oaks Park on Saturday the 26th uh and lastly um from the mayor and Council I just wanted to update um the planning board on uh the recent decision regarding 244 Alan Road proposed Memory Care Facility I believe you've all read the mayor's letter so I won't read the the whole thing but um on September 16th mayor and council meeting uh a majority of the council in a four to do four to2 vote uh believe that the best option for residents of volan was to negotiate a settlement with the developer the settlement would include the subdivision and deeding to the burrow of 1.7 Acres of property containing the environmentally sensitive wetlands and the Vernal pool the historic building as pre previously agreed and we would relocate the Burrow's portion of the property um and that's that's my update from mayor and Council we don't know when they're going to get started on that do we we do not and aside from the subdivision do we know if um it's the same plan that we had originally approved or is it would have to be otherwise they coming back here it's they approved so they approved the the original application that was what the resolution was to approve the original application as it stood to hear that and there's and just as one aside that there was a lot of things that were brought up over the many months and you you all know this uh but one of the concerns was about the construction phase for the residents of that area with um interference with school traffic so uh we are told that our construction officials and police can mandate certain construction routes and work hours that will remove that congestion and interference with school traffic that's one of the things that uh would be a stipulation that's great thank you thanks for the update anything else that's it was enough right you had l so good stuff okay um construction official report everybody should have had that in their package uh burrow engineer report not seeing a burrow engineer I guess we don't have an update um Financial secretary report don't look at me it's it's out of nature I know I know so in our total budget um out of budget is 13625 and out of escrow 50 $5 5,651 25 for a grand total of $695 7.50 we have a motion motion all in favor I approved okay minutes uh minutes were published for the September 11th meeting everybody should have a copy of that does anybody have any comments about those minutes seeing none can anybody make a motion motion second all in favor great okay anybody have any new business as a plan see man this is great we're flying along okay any old business that we should talk about I don't see anything listed here but you never know we're good all right Communications anything the only thing you guys might want to discuss since you're all together as a group is the October 30th meeting okay yeah yeah that's a good point I didn't know if we actually had that on the agenda or not hopefully half of us are at the World Series that night I'm certainly I certainly some of us will be at the World Series we got to be positive about it a lot a lot depends on tonight too so I gotta win tonight um so yeah we've um encountered and some people in this room have probably heard it before we've encountered a lot of applications and so we uh did a survey of um the planning board and we have at least eight people I'm one of them and I'm tentative so seven and a half people who can make a planning board meeting on October 8th so uher 30 October 30th thank you October 30th um that would have been yesterday that would have that would have been yesterday yes back in time so October 30th so um unless some somebody has an objection to it I don't know if we have to vote on that we have to give the secretary authorization to advertise the special meeting okay and get the applicant notice that the ones were hearing that right they have to provide the requisite notice to all parties okay how know and whatever applications we have I don't know which ones they are right we'll have to there's a big stack of them apparently so figure it out after tonight maybe two or three at the most 7 o'clock start correct of course 7 o' so right now we'll say it's on and then we'll take care of the notifications regarding that the only other thing I want to talk about before we we move on to Applications is I want everybody to give a round of applause to Diane absolutely than you so much retirement from the ultan planning board and so we all wish her the best she was wonderful and a great partner to work with thank you for everything it was wonderful working with congratulations all righty I had no resolutions or ordinances so we're going to jump right into applications so before we do that um there's a slight adjustment to the uh agenda we are going to see 50 15 Lindy plays first um and then Colonial Colonial in and Sanger have agreed to swap so five Parker Place is going to go second we're we're told it's going to be done in by 5 to 10 minutes and uh and then we'll we'll have more time for um Colonial manner or whatever it's go so uh with that let's start with um 15 Lindy place I down correct yes it's a a d4 variant so uh class one and class three participate I understand the notices are in order for the board has jurisdiction to proceed I'm going to swear both of you in as well as Mr Zabo our planner you swear or affirm that the testimony will give this Prine sh be you done I do let the record reflect that Mr Zabo has been sworn can I get your names please Conrad shamala oh your last name uh s z y m a l a okay and then Megan the last name m e g a n yes and last name s z y m a l a okay very good thank you okay yeah so tell us the situation all right so uh so basically what we're looking to do is um it is essentially an addition onto the back of our existing house now we say it's an addition but there's actually already a structure there so overall the outline of the house would would not be changing substantially other than you know the roof line changing slightly for for the additional uh second floor so right now what it is is a enclosed porch um we bought the house about a year and a half ago last February of 23 um but my understanding is it was a deck and at some point they built over the deck made it an enclosed port um so it is a a room although it's not heated um so I don't think it counts towards the livable space that what depicted as a deck on the plan uh so I think the deck is an actual deck it's to the to the right the overhang uh to the right of that on the plan so it says sorry excuse me quick I think I'm I think I actually need to recuse myself you with I'm just looking at it quick this one it's the overhang okay so with the area where the overhang is where the addition would go uh that's right so so basically we would we would take out that enclosed porch and build over that and basically make it a a fold so that it's more than the deck would be made the deck uh the plans are to take the deck down eventually and make a patio but it would be what are we talking about now the deck staying or going uh it's going as part of the plans It Go De is being REM another question for you I don't know if you know this or John knows this but because the deck was then enclosed even though it wasn't ventilated or heated does that end up counting a square footage that wasn't there yes Mr chairman uh by definition um the the the deck is to be removed so it's irrelevant but when you put roofs on things then and attach it to a principal building it becomes comes part of the F but In fairness to the applicant didn't know that you you could take into consideration the fact that it was you know a an open area then it's being enclosed other factors that you can consider also is that they're not exceeding the impervious or building coverage right so these are things and the the setbacks are generally conforming except for the rear yard but these are all things you can consider in in your deliberations right and and one other you don't have any paid professional right it's just you're doing the presentation okay want to make sure I think we need to Mark the survey you want to Mark the survey as A1 yes please you should probably on your copy of the survey just mark it a we also have architectural plans JMA Architects a two yep and there's a picture of the enclosed deck actually on that second cop on that second page of the architectural plans you can see the first image is enclosed deck uh anything else that you want want to tell us um so yeah so so so that's basically you know what we're looking to do so one thing I want to highlight right uh right now the on the application that the VAR for the the far is I think uh 30 33.6% right so the thing about that is uh it includes uh additional space on the proposed second floor that where because of how the r Line's going to be constructed will'll have uh a ceiling that's below 7 ft okay so per my understanding of the kind of definition of livable space anything below 7 ft isn't counted towards that livable space uh number isn't isn't that a new bedroom yes then it's counted it's counted because no no so I'm not but I'm not saying the whole thing okay oh I see where the just that's not there'll be part of the bedroom that's below so that square footage is about 286 ft so if you were to take that out of the original proposed new square footage it brings us down to about 278 Square ft of livable space that would bring our far it would still be in excess of the 28% you know that's required far but it would only be about 29.6 so only slightly over okay we have to be clear we can't have any estimates the architect plan says the uh total would be 2364 you're saying that's not the amount uh it should say it on the plans it says I'm looking at it yes so we're referring to 2364 that would be that would be the total but if you look if you read there below there about two lines below uh is where it talks about the the 7 ft or less and if you take out 286 or the 2364 minus the 2 68 what two sorry minus what 268 268 there at the bottom brings you to 278 Square ft on the proposed plan and so that's what I'm referencing um so even though you're presenting it as a 33.6% f you're saying it really is more like a 29% F in accordance with our exactly because of the slope ceilings and and and the amount of space that would be below where the ceilings are are you know below 7 feet John is that an appropriate way to calculate it have you seen it done that way before not exactly but but that's not what the applicant is profer the applicant if I could put words in their mouth is profer that yes it's a bedroom y yes uh it's attached it's in there but if you take out it's just it's an argument that the f is not as bad as as it would appear because normally we don't count anything over 7 ft um the reason we would count here is because of the percentage of floor area that's above 7t otherwise they wouldn't get a building permit because you have to have 7t clearance so so it's it's it's a mitigating consideration if the bo wants to pick it up so it's 26 it's 2364 minus 268 something like that yeah yep that's right minus 2 2868 and and let me let me just remind the board of the statutory criteria um it's not under the strict D1 which is the med standard uh this standard is more relaxed under the Coventry uh standard that was established under the case law that I cite in my report which goes into Randol town center and basically they connected those because what what the Court's saying is yeah it's his use variance but that's really not the way to look at it treat it more like a bulk because the presumption is that the use is permitted in the zone and the and the standard really is can the site accommodate the deviation in F right and then that's why I said you can consider the setbacks the building coverages the impervious with none of which they're exceeding visually it's in the back in the back it's in the back what the board you can take all that can the site accommodate the deviation and with all those other factors that I cited and those are things you can consider there's also another factor I you haven't mentioned it yet at least if you did I missed it and I apologize is that the property is only about 7,000 very very undersized I didn't want to read as that be that's important that's I think the Board needs to hear that IID Mr chairman but I I've never accepted that argument because the F building coverage and impervious is all tied to thought size which so it's proportional it is and which is wise of the that's why you know they downplayed that but it is a consideration because it's severely undersized but you got to live with the smaller lot you can't blow it out yeah right and but I so I never accepted that argument really it's fair in my opinion and I think just to go back again you know that is yes it's an undersized lot so you know typically in you know standard you know Japan is what uh 10,000 square ft right or or an r10 yes yeah where ours is about 7,000 just roughly 7,000 um so it is undersized odd-sized lot and again I think the main point is that visually someone mentioned it visually this is in the back it's not changing visually you know substantially to what it is now because the structure already is there you know we don't count it towards theable space currently but the structure is there and the roof line will change a little bit but again it's not going to be a materially it's not materially going to look different U than it does right now so what you're seeking is an F varant for 278 Square ft uh 2364 technically yes now what does that count 20 that comes to 29.6 29.6 just in excess of the 28 and just for what it's worth you know we did a little research and just looking up some of the other properties around you know that neighborhood and and on that street and there was I think one property that at some point um they must have done construction and I think you know by my calculations uh the F there is about 36.6% how did you find that out for the um tax assessment tax assessment you went to the property record C the assess we have it here we have those as well if anyone wants to see any of them but um yeah we not that we're looking to get any of the Neighbors in trouble that help with the negative CR but you know what Mr chairman this is a good good thing to know because you want to know how the proposed application fits in with the neighborhood I always asked for this information and it's always skirted and they actually looked at it what is that address uh 16 Lindy so it's actually right across neighborhood and what's the what's the FI there so by my again now I'm just using the way I calculated it was taking the total livable space uh from the tax assessor over the square footage of their lot so I don't know if that's exactly how you calculate okay approxim and that came out to 36.6% that looks like a small lot too mhm yeah that lot was about um actually smaller 5,000 ft 5,200 us at one time many years ago probably and again I'm sure they got a variant could you give me the block and laot which to 16 lendy uh yes if I got the record card I'll have the block block number is 28001 lot 22 block 22 2 22 22 20 blck 22 yes lot no no lot 22 lot 22 lock 2801 okay good thank you and then just one other point and again this is not you know everything else from from looking at most of the surrounding addressing within around our area nothing else popped out with a with you know a far in excess of of the allowable but just as a point of reference the average um you know total livable space for all the the houses around us is about 2250 so again compare that to that 2078 number we're still basically average in terms of just total livable area anything else you want to present to us sorry anything else you'd like to present to us um So currently yeah so so I I think that that just goes back to our our point that that right now if you were to calculate the uh the far for the house inclusive of the enclosed porch uh it's 28 uh sorry 20.5 28.5 so we're technically over so technically it is over 2007 yeah so you're only proposing 71 square fet more yes exactly that's that's the difference 71 s feet okay you know typically for this type of application we would see an architect we would see a lawyer we would see a planner but it's it's it's insignificant I know I know that's just you know professional sport you did hire an architect obviously he prepared us he helped us with this okay I've got all right anything else on your end I think that's it for those are the main points so all right we're going to run around the board with questions we'll start with uh Mr zabber our planning official a planning consultant uh no I I I I don't have any comments nothing else nothing that's not already presented in my report thank you all right Tom I have nothing uh no nothing I think you answered all my questions because I just jumped right in let me just take a look though yeah everything I've discussed already I just have one basic question what Mr future chair so basically you're going to take the deck decks and the some porch off the back of the house they would be demolished demolished yep build a new Foundation under yep the sun porch uh build a great room build the master bedroom yep and that's it that's it y okay heating air conditioning lighting you know no that's going to be the new mechanical access room be a little more complicated than how you described I assume but yes that'll be it okay just one question is the future patio taken into account in the lot coverage calculation CU I don't see a breakdown of the lot coverage the patio but I don't yeah so it does say future patio on the plans um says it on likeed first floor plan future patio on the bottom left but is there any evidence that it's in the calculations for that's what that's that's kind of my question yeah minimum it shouldn't trigger a variance it wouldn't yeah yeah I think I don't think it triggers a variance because they they're still under uh building uh impervious coverage it's still under it okay that's fine but it's a good point and and I maybe there could be a reference to to that in the resolution that says that that should be verified by the building inspector yeah why don't we do that time of building permission time of building per when that gets done yeah so do you understand the point so if this if it does get approved tonight there'll be something in the resolution that says you have to confirm that that's the lot coverage is conforming the your architect do you don't have to come back to the board correct as long as it's under the impervious covered so when you building permit so I I do see if you look at the on the plan the top right where we have all the you know what's required existing proposed is what you're talking about the max improved lot coverage correct yeah so that normally that would have incl including including it yeah should have but you I stand corrected it's shows in the foot y it's is existing but it's a good point I me because normally we get a breakdown it was one of the things that wasn't added on the plan that was incomplete for yeah there's no patio there right now so so I think it is inclusive there but why don't we make that part of the resolution anyway just to confirm that conditioned by construction official confirm that yeah there's no harm in doing black T just conforming right y anything else thinking no I'm good thank you Mr ban question uh future potential have you what kind of material we going to use uh probably stone patio and again I I don't think the it wouldn't be any much bigger than the current deck that's there so same for the most part what the also you mentioned you did some calculation for the neighborhood yep so I so the average we took the just the total livable area from all of the different um you know from the tax assessor yep and the average of of the of the uh properties that we looked at was 2250 that includes uh uh some not only uh addresses on Lindy place but also Amelia Drive and and a couple uh in the area but that yeah question Mr Kramer uh actually I have no questions I visited the site and reviewed the plans listened to the testimony I have no questions great thank you okay so assuming that there's nothing else we have to open the meeting to the public for any comments questions comments or questions so anybody want to make a motion motion second to open it to the public all in favor I I okay great do anybody from the public have any comments about the application that was presented uh for 15 Lindy Place comments or questions seeing none motion second all in favor I okay uh anything else you want to present to us um I think that was it for today y okay does anybody have any other comments or questions before a motion is made I I want to compliment you on the research that you did and made it easier for us to understand and U welcome to the talent thank you well she actually grew up here so she she's not new I've lived here my whole life and well 21 years also appreciate the honesty you weren't trying to hide anything from us so all right anybody prepared to make a motion make a motion wait a minute game game let's go I make a motion that we approve the application as our career you what was the question what is your profession you did like a lot of research so looks like oh he's a numbers guy I work yeah I work in accounting he looks like a numbers guy good job thank you take two can we get can make the motion we accept the application as submitted and with the stipulation of the coverage coverage a few other things anybody second that I second it all righty roll call yes Mr yes Mr John yes yes Mr yes yes Mr crer yes congratulations all right thank you very much that may be the new record for certainly yes right that might be that might be a new record for f very much be a resol congratulations good luck yeah the resolution will be prepared by Bob and then at the next meeting you don't have to come but at the next meeting we'll vote on the resolution but it's usually a matter of course okay okay thank you much that's the night welcome okay one down as we discussed we are going to leap over to excuse me five Parker Place par you can go home night this par Place par are where this hearing started last month on September 11th you did anybody miss that meeting that's here tonight and that might be voting if we do vote I missed that meeting did you last meeting did you listen to any of the recordings how do we handle that well is everyone else eligible from last month and then we got the transcripts in our email as well I know but who was here last month who was here yeah here one two 3 Danny you're raising ah hand no I was not four five okay six six are eligible to vote you know why I'm asking the question absolutely there seven me seven members will be eligible to vote but only six are eligible because of the absence from last month and you need five out of six to get a deance that's why I'm asking all these questions why don't you see how the meeting goes and you decide decide whether you want what I was going to ask probably a good idea appreciate it got to go 5 to six that's my Ted Williams analogy Ted that's right last day 1941 1941 right I had1 46 because we're watching the next game I speaking about that okay all right good evening Mr chairman members of the board Dean St of the law firm of feraro and St on behalf of the applicant Mr Sir uh as was stated we did start the application last month on September 11th and uh we got a lot of feedback from the board uh we went back and discussed it as a group collectively and our client did decide to reduce the floor area ratio and liable area from the 22.6% that we were originally seeking to what was prefire uh 20.68 so match it looking to match what was uh there prior to their family experiencing a fire in their home uh so I have we did provide the revised architectural drawing I have Mr he'll walk us through that and we'll walk you through and the prior F on the prior point was 23.9 um no 22.6 was what was originally sold original plan correct and we reduced it to 20.68 which was is identical to the prior home that was that's correct destroyed in the five y all right okay Mr Zakon Mr Zakon was previously sworn and I think we want to Mark the revised plan yes um I believe we said we are at plan date at 9:30 and I think it's 8:10 let just check to be sure yes A10 will be the revised architectural plan very good thank you okay so was previously what we did as a response to meeting the F and lowering it we looked at the North elevation construction and the East Elevation and we eliminated uh part of the proposed uh structure to ruce that area so that area on the North elevation is save not only in the first but also on the second what page you on sorry we're on A1 I'm looking at and also look at the side FL plan [Applause] A2 that's helpful areas in this side over here North elevation eliminating that rejection you may recall that previously we were in question for flat elevation flat wall as since then we've eliminated that U addition and made it conform to the existing Foundation we also took the board's advice and made that rear wall and the um East Side to be flush uh which affected um the kitchen size as well as the family room dining s so with that we were able to achieve the fa fa off the kitchen and the dining area is that what you kitchen and din yeah we've also um maintained the existing two-car garage that's a big part of the F calculation and it subsequently it affected the proposed space on the second floor over the garage can you remind everybody how that weird calculation worked and how by going to two cars it significantly help f as soon as you you go exceed the carage requirement go to three cars that additional area of that additional car was thrown into the F go be above 400t per right the the purpose behind that I think was to prevent people from taking advantage of the exclusion and blowing out garages and having five car garages underneath so I I great that's where that's coming from the existing garage as it is will remain no change we've also um reduced the height of the attic and and the total area total height of the building came down to 6'1 6'1 so it's no longer considered that habitable space 6 ft in that's correct and that's indicated and there'll be no floor up there right we had discussed that last time Flor Flor well there there's there's an attic but it's shown as 6'1 um refer to uh a11 the draing a11 for that Dimension and the windows are just aesthetic it's aesthetic anything else that was done on the square footage um let's see what we have on square footage pict in the one yards area B requirements coverage for area ratio we've covered um MoDOT area um just looking for that number but we don't we don't have any ulk variances related to the L exactly sell Varian is to far right correct and um I guess was existing condition yeah well that's which I think was previously approved with what appears to be a prior the twostory space spanned by the brid that's still there that's correct also we eliminated the proposed Shed from the plan that's correct now how did that impact the numbers well it it didn't impact the numbers it was just an issue raised by the board at the last meeting I I think that um it impact perhaps coverage of of the site but um in talking to the owners it involved um additional construction Foundation structure and that that was expect itself so we eliminated that with the agreement with the [Music] owners corre and again just to we've just said it though but we definitely don't we don't have any lot coverage issue normally with f that's kind of part and part so you like limit that that's correct um all right if the board has any questions of Mr zakone uh let's start let's start um John no questions I think that the applicant has addressed the concerns that were expressed by the board at the last hearing the question again goes back to can the site accommodate the deviations uh it's hard to argue this is a mcmansion when they're really restoring what was there and they made concessions in terms of the size of of the house including reducing the garage uh it still exceeds 400 ft but it's a two-car garage that was there so I you know I really don't have any other comment okay all right thank you Tom I have wasn't here oh you can still ask questions I'm I'm a little confused by the windows in the Attic was that a normal design feature my normal attics atcts can have and should have light it's an aesthetic as well as a functional requirement it's an add that's it and that was something we did talk about at the last meeting we were concerned about it because at that time the height of it was higher than I forget what the number was but the board correctly brought that up as an issue as a result we brought the height of the attic lower and subsequently the the windows became shorter as well I think that would have actually and I could be wrong remind me please correct me he said that actually that would have ended up making it more square footage oh yeah so it would have been would have been calculated in yeah exactly which is why 8,000 squ ft correct so that there was a lot of concern of the board and so you you address that as well um anything else no I I mean I've seen the have house it's a shame that it caught fire it is a very big house making it bigger wouldn't really have changed right so I'm glad you came back to the original square foot agree um you answer my questions as I went along so that's it for me Mr Lessie um one I want to uh thank you for accommodating our recommendations and reducing the square footage um just got a couple questions on the second second floor from the front door to the back that's all two stories except for the bridge going across on sheet A3 A3 correct that's correct it's all open it's all open and then the glass elevator Glass Elevator comes up from and then goes through to the attic that's cor it doesn't it stops at the second floor it stops at the second floor it's going to be a a a draw down storage like a a trapo through the attic or there's stairs I yeah I think we show that in yeah it's there's no the drawing yeah but it's a pull down attic access pull down attic access so there's no stairs to it it's just storage under 7 ft so the only access then is the attic stairs the pull down pull down not a and then that so the elevator doesn't go up to the okay and then on sheet he 11 uh I appreciate the explanation what the uh attic windows on the right yes are not centered over the windows on the bottom I'm a little disappointed about well um take heart okay you know we we looked at it we're aware of the fact that it doesn't line up de constructivist architecture there can can see it all way I just know that you're perfect in what you you do and I just didn't know if that was uh close to it if not perfect okay close to it all right I'll let you slide no more further questions thank you and no more further mistakes Mr Allen have no questions thank I don't have any question L Mr ban good looks like you like the windows that's what counts I suppose myself the architect and the owners like the window all right anything else on CER Mr Kramer uh just just a clarification under your uh bar notes you have indicated here does not include excess garage square footage are you referring an excess garage you insuring to the the existing garage exceeds the 400 read that to the the to 400 existing garage place so it's going to remain a same so that area not is not considered I think with John what they're saying is in the original application because it was a three car garage the excessive square footage was adding extra square footage to the F so they went back to the two-car garage and so they were clarifying that for us thank you thank you anything else sir you're good okay so what variance you were asking for the F variance of 5.68 20.68 the reason the applicant if I may 20.6 correct but the home was destroyed more than 50% which would require us my my my report covers that uh when you have complete destruction it's almost like a vacant law and you have to treat it like a vacant law that's why they're here okay anything else from Mr zakone uh nothing from Mr Z okay so we have to open up the meeting to the public for questions to Mr zakone only about his testimony anybody have a motion motion second all in favor okay does anybody from the public have any comments or questions from Mr zakone regarding his testimony regarding the architecture of the building seeing none motion close second all in favor okay Mr Stamos any other professionals I do have the planner okay to very briefly sure testify Mr Vince Mr Vince he was previously sworn and qualified okay [Applause] pup thank you Mr re uh Mr Vince obviously you've had a chance to review the revised uh drawing submitted yes and you obiously you heard the testimony um your professional opinion obviously with this reduction does it affect the uh negative criteria and the the legal criteria for for the granting of the variances No in fact it improves the circumstances um there's no substantial detriment to the public because uh basically the building in terms of the floor area ratio is exactly what's there today um so there wouldn't be a change uh the proposal does reduce the uh footprint of the building so from the street uh in terms of the width it's going to be uh narrower um there is a slight height narrow than what what the original house was yeah because uh there used to be this one story Wing off to the the left side of the house and that's being reduced so um the narrow the house is going to appear narrower from the street uh there is a slight height increase we're going from about 30 ft to 33 ft but uh 35 is allowed so we are less than what's Allowed by The Zone and uh the 3 ft I don't think that's going to be perceivable um so I don't see any substantial detriment on the public good or the intent of the Zone plan the zoning ordinance um pretty much putting backwards there now Mr obviously the the home has the property has accommodated um yes the home with that with the existing deviation and it will continue what's the size of the lot sorry hand um it's 31,6 189 squ ft this an r25 yes okay keep going sorry no um that's it the the proof of a D4 density variance is that the lot can accommodate any problems associated with the increased floor area ratio and uh certainly it can because it's been doing that um prior to the fire okay there no issues prior to the fire fire with the house and the property accommodating not that I'm aware of I mean it's a rather large driveway uh they do have a garage okay um meets all the setbacks okay uh anything else no no we will open up the meeting to the board and and to our professionals Mr Zabo any questions colag no no questions okay I think we covered what needs to be covered in front of the and you have a memo too that summarize I think we marked that at least I hope we did well he sent an upic don't but oober yeah why don't we mark it just so we have it for the record I don't know if we Mark I wrote to one and I wrote in second memorandum on the revised plan I just want to see if we Mark the original one which I don't think we did no we did was marked as B2 so let's mark the revised one at P3 very good Mr all right Tom uh no uh everything was answered okay Bob I know you weren't here at the last meeting but any questions I do have one question and it may have may have gone away um the original discussion a couple meetings ago a neighbor came and was con concerned about water runoff um taking this back to the original building size does that negate that or is there still potential um water that's a good question we we had any public whatsoever no we did we had a we had a I actually remember the man he he said he was happy for their blessings to be able to rebuild but he had concerns that the new original plan could create water he had the property right next to them and he had some concerns about that um so um the grading is basically being maintained on this property and uh all the roof is to be collected and piped into uh seepage pits so um it's going to be equal to or better than what it is today okay because Mr scrable I'm looking back at it Tom scrable did have storm water management comments I don't know he's not here here but I don't know he he did he wants to know um if we were just matching uh if cuz at first we were increasing the footprint and he said that he wanted us to not just store the increase because that's how Mark Martins had already originally done the plans um and he was showing that there was a uh we were required to store like 500 gallons based on the increase but um I did the calculations backwards and uh we were storing a the entire roof area for a 2in storm okay and then I believe uh Mr scrable said he was satisfied I mean he's not here to confirm that well we work we could as a condition we going to be standard condition we will make sure he's as to any storm waterer management conditioned by approval of B J okay okay that's all I have oh good one thanks again you've been answering my questions as I go along because I'm like a four-year-old I think so anyway Mr alessie all right I I picked on Mr Sone so I'm going to pick on you okay and he's perfect this is just like being at home it's like being home um powered today because he's wearing shoes so I just want you to first I I I feel uncomfortable like bre out hes um the driveway in the front the circular half circular uh why are we keeping it uh because the owner likes it and it does conform with the ordinance and um it was proposing to do as minimal site work as possible he's just trying to rebuild his home and uh kind of keep what he had Che AC that I think so okay no more further questions yeah okay okay nothing okay I any questions mran yeah just to follow up what you said the pained area is going to look it's going to you keeping exactly the way it is right now uh it was going to follow what uh Mr Martins had on the plan and matching the existing yes with the uh exception of squaring off some of the uh the driveway towards the home there a portion of the driveway was about to get reconstructed directly outside the garage because he was raising the grade up so portion of the driveway will get reconstructed just to blend the grade and access the garage that was factored into the calculations for impervious yes and we're well below so uh we're proposing on this plan about 36% and we're allowed 40 okay Mr Kramer no questions all righty um anything else from the the planner all right I'm going to open the meeting to the public for any comments or questions to Mr Vince uh anybody have a motion motion second all in favor does anybody from the public have any comments from Mr Vince about his testimony regarding the planning and I guess the engineering um for this property seeing none motion second all in favor all all righty Mr Stamos any other professionals that you'd like to present to us no no other direct would you like to Sure provide any more very briefly I want to thank you for your time and your consideration and input obviously we heard you [Music] um I know the f is important issue so we did uh bring it down to what was existing uh again our clients suffered a fire unfortunately which none of us ever want to experience that and uh they're anxious to them trekking back and forth from Leonia with their kids for school so we're certainly anxious to uh proceed and come back to where you know they're forever home here in oldp so we hope you do uh act favorably upon the application and Grant the request of barrance so knowing that we only have six members that are eligible to vote are you comfortable with us voting tonight uh yes okay right before we do that I just do I do want to thank you for addressing our comments you you heard I mean you said it and I just want to be clear f is a big deal to us in the community and so I appreciate that all right does anybody have a motion to make regarding this application I make a motion we approve the application with a 500w essay from the homeowners why they're keeping the draft um I make a motion that we accept the application as submitted and again thank you for for cating the F anybody make a second to that second you can I don't think you can no you can Mr trying to move it all I second all right roll call yes only six members Jennifer can vote yes yes yes yes yes Cramer yes congratulations all right thank you very much we can probably do three or four more applications for oh whoa whoa whoa whoa whoae on the 30 TR oh thinking of the World Series guys I'm thinking of the World Series especially now my wife my daughters are there fire depart you know all oh yeah I'm starting to learn the beginning of theame and so he and his wife built the house and they weren't even moved in in the sun back like I got be crazy right and he was older he was in his 40s by so they put their house up the sale you don't go and decided they were going to but the house wasn't oh you running the show price December of we need we need like one of those Buzz callers to 1999 we moved in June 1st because they needed to Live While the house was being now what do you have next looked at their old house in country sire I didn't realize it I'm not I had just redone did a family room basement over like I'm they just found me in a parking lot all right he bought me a drink so they lived in a no just just see okay let's bring the second session to order thank you Mr chairman members of the board Matthew pizy on behalf of the applicant this is the continued application of the all Japan manner this application was last before the board on September 11th of this year at that time we had conclusion testimony from our architect engineer and our traffic engineer for discussion this evening is testimony from Mike Morel Matt Mar excuse me see to my right who was going to handle the acoustical conversation for us this evening and Paul Keys our landscape architect as the board is aware part of the application is proposing outdoor ceremonies in a limited fashion in a northwest corner of the property as part of the application and package there is in a coal wall assembly 8ot high wall to the north 8ot high wall to the west and a 12T high wall to the South that closes the patio area that we had discussion on through our site engineer Mr morela is going to talk to us about the impacts of that s continuation wall as well as the impacts of the house audio system and having a sound limiter on the in house audio system and what impacts there would be from a sound uh perspective on adjacent properties and then Mr Keys will discuss some of the modified Landscaping additional Landscaping that being proposed along the Norther L property line including a landscaping area approximate to the circular driveway that's designed to help Shield vehicle lights from our Northerly property uh a Norther neighbor excuse so U first off is Mr Morel and then we would when he concludes his testimony have Mr Keys swearing Mr Melo you swear or affirm that the testimonial given his pring shall be S God s God and for the rec that your full name please spell your last name certainly Matthew murell m r l I'm employed with the firm Lewis goodfriend and Associates in Chester New Jersey Mr acting chair of Mr Mel has previously qualified an acoustic As an acoustical engineer before other boards I rep represent he probably doesn't remember oh I remember my fail mon okay I recommend he to De qualify without any additional testimony okay we accept your recommendation okay thank you Mr Co any questions Mr Morel can you tell the board your involvement with the application certainly uh we were asked to evaluate um the potential noise impact of the outdoor um area of this site um with respect to the the neighboring residential property line now to do that um we to undertook several tasks the first thing I want to describe is the limiting noise regulation with respect to this this application and the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection has a noise regulation that stipulates during the daytime hours which is 7:00 a.m. to 10: p.m. which is when this proposed operation would take place no the sound level cannot exceed 65 DBA at the residential receiving property line now in this case the receiving property line the emitter property line is the same so I'm just going to refer to it as the property line now during that uh also if there were things to occur after 10 p.m. then the the noise regulation would be 50 DBA but we're not proposing anything after 1000 p.m. so 65 DBA is the noise regulation for the D that we're looking at in order to evaluate what sound would be in this area we had to perform an acoustical model we modeled two different types of operations the first would be we modeled Amplified music or voices um and to do that we used a sound modeling package software called sound plan which is a universally accepted program um where we enter the noise sources and where they're going to be located and with respect to loudspeakers we put two loudspeakers on the inside where the alter side would be facing away from the property line we modeled those sound speak those speakers and then we also put in approximately 300 or 296 people and I'll deal with them in one second as Mr capy stated we're recommending that this sound system have what's called a limiter put in it so if anybody's ever driven cars you know what a governor is it maximizes the speed a limiter does the same thing for speakers so basically anything that gets plugged into the speakers has to go through this box and this box is set so the sound level coming out of the speakers can never exceed 75 DBA at 3 fet the reason we use that number is because for twofold one is anything much louder than 75 at 3 feet really gets to the point where it's too loud and if anyone's ever been to a wedding that's too loud and the music's too loud we don't want that but more importantly at 75 DBA with the barriers um that we'll discuss in a second we know we'll meet 65 DBA on the opposite side which is the code the second piece are we took 296 now obviously since we can't put 300 people there now and say okay everybody start talking we use the same modeling software we took all all of them at a conversational speech level so we call it normal speech which is about 58 DBA 3 ft I'm actually probably talking a little bit louder than 58 DBA that's about normal conversation in an outdoor environment and then we took it as if it was at the end of the ceremony everybody yells at loud level of about 78 DBA and that's loud and we said we're going to model everyone talking at either normal or loud speech at the same time and even those sound levels were below the 65 dbaa level even though the noise regulation has excuse me 14 specific exemptions to the noise regulation emergency generators aircraft cars on public roadways and the unamplified human voice for obvious reasons because if the unamplified human voice was subject to the noise regulation then every ball field play Park parking lot and so forth we'd be evaluating noise so the unamplified human voice is not subject to the code but even if it were the sound level would be at the maximum sound level everybody yelling at one time would be 66 DBA only one decel over the code and even that would only be at one point on the property line right on the other side of the barrier now the other question we were able to answer is you know how loud is 65 EBA relative to what exists out there currently so we visited the site on November 27th 2023 W that was a long time ago we did measurements on the site from about noon to about 700 p.m. let me just make sure I have that time right yep 700 p.m. and during that time we put a sound level me on the property line we measured continuously and the average sound level ranged from about 44 to about 50 DBA now this is in the middle of winter so there's no leaves on the trees the only background noise you have is what exists out there currently there was nothing going on on this site so the average sound level averages around 50 dbaa 44 to the DBA if there was an event there um During the period of time as I said already we expect sound levels with the barrier at the North property line to be between 49 and 50 59 dbaa that's with Amplified music and lowlevel speech so we believe based upon the application or based upon the noise control and what we're recommending is a noise barrier on the inside of the existing hedge R of 8T High along the north property line 8T High along the west side of it and then 12 foot high along the southern side so basically we're going to box this thing in with an acoustical barrier it's a solid PVC type barrier that has acoustical treatment on the inside and with that barrier and the proposed operations during daytime hours we expect to meet the daytime code in also all scenarios now I'm happy to answer any questions you may have just you mentioned on the noise bar 8 foot high on on two sides yes sir what were the two sides north and west okay and 12 on the south yes sir thank you and that's of the enclosed area not of the property line Matt if I can just ask you just followup question so part of what you're discussing with the board this evening comes from your report of January 5th of this year is that correct yes want to mark that I'm sorry want to mark it yes is A8 please A8 and this report was prepared by your office is that correct under my direction yes thank you is there a an exhibit attach that report that gradually depicts sound waves and how they reverberate out from the property and how things are impacted by virtue of the proposed sound barrier that we've been discussing sure at the end of the prop at the end of the report on page 10 11 and 12 you have figures four and five and six what we have on those are the results of the sound plan model um on figure four we have the calculation of the sound um without any barriers and with a barrier and that's the Amplified music so on the bottom of those two figures you'll see a green line that kind of surrounds the Northwest and south side of the enclosed area on that chart you'll see that the sound level just with Amplified music is below 65 DBA along the northern property line or the black line when we go into figures five and six figures F figure five is with loud speech no barrier and with a barrier and that's the scenario where I said if everyone all approximately 300 people were to yell at one time which is really difficult to do but let's just say the Mets win everybody yells that at that moment in time you'll have a sound level that we predict to be only one or two DB above the daytime code even though the human voice is not accept is not subject to limits of the noise regulation and then the last chart um is with normal speech with and without a barrier and as you can imagine the normal speech being significantly quieter will be well below the limits of the code in all scenarios Matt the difference between 65 and 66 how much of an appreciable impact uh virtually none in order to have some appreciable difference in sound you have to start to get to about a 3 dcel increase or decrease in sound so if you were to put headphones on and gradually Turn Up the Music until the point where you say okay I can hear it's definitely louder now that's about a 3 deel increase if you get to the point where it's almost double that's about a 10 deel increase so a 1 deel increase is really a barely percept level if we were to focus for a moment on figure five on the the bottom of sheet 11 and the sound map that you have there can you just read for the board the sound levels as it pertains to the midpoint of the lot to the north and just kind of basically give some sound levels off property so the neighborhood can appreciate how sound is impacting their Lots so the the the point just north of this area as it's closest to the area where we're going to be producing the sound would be the loudest and that would be about 66 DBA and if you think of it as a pebble in a pond and you and the the waves propagate out spherically that's the way sound does on these Maps when it doesn't get nice concentric circles is when something intervenes a barrier a building a burm something of that nature um and then you can see that as the S on the opposite side of the sound Barry on the on the westand side at that property line you're going to be approximately 10 DB down at about 55 BBA because of the added distance and the barrier on the south property line you have sound levels that are going to be between 50 and 55 DBA again added distance also you have behind a barrier as you get further out towards the house um to the northeast of this area the closest house you have sound levels at the house that would be just over 60 DBA about 60 61 and again that's a worst case scenario with the Speakers Going at 75 DBA and people talking at normal conversation level at the loud voices I'm sorry on on schedule five correct is it fure five yes I'm sorry loud loud voices thank you Mr Mor no further questions Mr Mr Co we has Mr Cool up no board members Bo MERS board members first okay and professionals um let's start with uh questions from the board Mr Zabo just one you talked to um the voice and I recognize it's unregulated really you first amendment issues all that what about music I mean typically when you have an outdoor ceremony you do have a violin or you might have a a a record going I mean I've been to a number of and i' I've been an efficient at a number of outdoor ceremonies and there's always music how does that play into the to the calculations so the way we accounted for that is that the with the speakers that are there there'll be a central system um it's my understanding that the venue will not allow anyone to bring in any external amplification system so if you have instruments playing a quartet a quintet that does not have a microphone those sound levels will not be near 75 DBA if there is something that requires amplification whether it's singing or a DJ or whatever it is we're going to use this limiting device which means no no matter what you do through the speakers it's not going to exceed six excuse me 75 DBA 3 ft and we can basically hardwire that in so it doesn't matter you can turn your amp up to 11 but as it comes out of the speaker it's only going to be limited to 75 DBA that's how we account for that got it okay that's important I board should know that thank you Mr Young yeah and talking about the sound barrier M um what is the life expectancy of of one of these sound barriers is there is there maintenance required in the upkeep of it we've recommended a PVC type bile or vinyl fencing kind of barrier um so it's thicker it has um acoustical treatment on the inside and perforated and it's encapsulated so it doesn't the thought doesn't fall out um but it's no different than having a normal vinl fence that's about the the shelf life of these things okay right Mr scaa the um the governor the hardware that uh reduced is the sound how is that how is how do they connect to that is it going to be the standard can somebody come in and adjust it to a higher level or is it a a fixed not able to be touched as far as um changing the level of sound no that's a good question so what normally happens is um you have um if you ever seen like a mixing board which are those things that everybody can plug into that all the slides on it everyone plugs into the mixer and then between the mixer and the amps or the speakers is this limiting switch the limiter can't be touched it can't it's when you when you set this the the um when you set the the sound level for it it's a specific knob that is then used with a screwdriver so you can't just go and turn the limiter up without having to go through and physically have to go into the limiter so you can have to open it up to get at the and the purpose of that is so that you can take the volume on the board and slip it all up to 11 but it still will not go through the limiter Unless somehow somebody comes in and does what they're they're saying that the the venue is not going to permit which is what they're not going to allow anyone to have an external system if you have an external system that goes around it sure but the idea is to have a central system everybody plugs into one end it goes through this limiter the limiter is not able to be modified either turns on or turns off and that's all anyone can touch and then the sound level coming out will be limited to 75 this is very typical used um in many venues it's used a lot when you have multif family in New York City when you have uh music in one area have residents above this is a very common practice device used okay that's all I have I have um I had the uh honor of being clonal Manor about 10 days ago my uh orological equipment is my ears I went outside was about 20 ft from the fountain towards the souths side um barely heard the music next to the Fountain and after 40 minutes outside I heard two trains so I don't know what the DBA is at that point in time um I can only speak for residents on the Cameron court side um not the Deerborn driver side there was maybe 30 people on the patio smoking laughing could barely hear them so I know this is about sound and stuff I don't know what the issue is on the camera court side that's why I went up on my own did the the research also the restaurant was there before the residence actually even before Caron Court was built the restaurant was there going back to Ed nella's I believe it's so calleded Ed andella's man or something um so I'm having I I appreciate the report but I'm just having a tough time I didn't go on the Cameron Court property because it's private property but on the colonial manner property I barely heard noises so I don't know what's going to extend beyond your barrier so and my concern was even more as a House multipan Road it looked like stallock 13 with the all coming by so that would bother me more than the than the noise so I just wanted to get that out there that I did hear it on my own and don't hear much noise well with the additional barriers it would be less than than what you've heard so if you didn't hear a whole lot it's going to be less than a whole lot okay I have no more questions there a question for you then was that an inside or outside party I don't think I'm allowed to ask that question uh I was at an inside party but I went outside and and I know that the applicant is going to build two vestibules I guess I can call that sound vestibules from those two outside doors at one it has to close so the party was going on inside and I was outside and could barely hear the DJ and the 300 people talking or the 30 people on the on the deck of smoking lounge and then I also sat there and thought well it's only going to be Thursday Friday and Saturday and sometimes there's not any parties uh on one of those days as opposed to Alternative now I know on my street I get a garbage truck every day um depends on who the people down the block have so if you're looking at 5 days a week as opposed to two or three days on the weekend I think the noise level for that couple of hours and a 15minute wedding ceremony is is the lesser of all evils is that because on the property I could barely hear anything from inside like I said I heard the train in Norwood twice and the water fountain so and nobody's doing an outside wedding ceremony at 10:00 at night and nobody's having parties either outside so that's that was going to ask I believe from last time you guys were here was the uh there would be no no parties or anything outside other than the ceremonies the cere which everything would take place inside to your point yes and I believe the weddings outside have been taking place since at least before 2000 um that I have no problem with I went back and checked the records and thanks to Jackie martinet what they're proposing is just having this area for services and then events inside that's in front of me sure yeah than that I'm good we're done okay thank you Mr Lotus valuable information thank you Mr leie um just wanted to ask one question was there any testing done like physical sound testing during an event not the modeling side but any kind of metering just to see hey no the only testing we did was to establish what the Baseline is so we had something to compare it to but that wasn't during an event correct we did not test during event can you guesstimate what the decb might have been I mean how how much are we reducing if you will here by even I don't know because they don't have events outside but I mean we can what I can do is is give you an estimate of about an eight or 8 decel reduction from just the barriers so we we modeled with the wall without with the barrier without the barrier um and it was about an 8 decel reduction and now when you do that um I don't have the report in front of me but are you doing that in a 2d um what's the elevation what's the height that you're taking that sound level is it ear height of an average it is person so we we set the elevation for the source and the receiver and in this case it's nice because the human voice the mouth and the ear are pretty much at the same height so we set we took our slice at about 5 and 1 12 ft okay when we do it the model actually does it in three dimensions but we kind of just take a slice at it and present that and then you're able to see at the 8 foot what that DVA is right because we modeled like I said it does it in three dimension three dimension so X Y and Z so when we put an 8T high or a 12T High barrier in between the source and receiver it does those calculations at all the heights but then when we get our results we just kind of take a slice out of that at ear height at about five five ft I'm just thinking if there are any other houses on across the street that are higher that might get more of that noise with the barrier coming up but I think we're the hous good there across Orangeburg Road are lower are lower okay I would say the one on karon court is the highest at the end of Karen court is the highest on that side and I believe 16 deborn drive I'm not too sure the numbers maybe the highest on that side okay makes sense good that's it for me thank you Mr ban 61 Deb that you said it's the worst case scenario 66 [Applause] [Music] exactly the the 66 DVA which was the highest sound level that we predict is with the the loud voices so all 296 people yelling at one time and the speak on and yep everything is once at the loud again if that were to happen it would be for seconds you know hooray kind of thing um but that's the 66 and it's right on the property line right behind the barrier on the North property line right behind the barrier so as you get further away from that point those sound levels drop off so by at the house to the north we expect sound levels about 60 DBA that's with with the sound barrier or with the sound barrier if it was no sound barrier would be another give or take yeah between 6 and 8 DB higher Che Mr Kramer yeah I have no particular questions with with regard to this professional but U I will have some comments that will Encompass the sound the sound system uh but I'll withold those until just before we uh make a motion okay Mr Co I'm sure has questions yeah motion's open I got a followup question oh I'm sorry yeah uh the season make a difference if it's a winter [Applause] when um in this scenario not likely because there's not um a large amount of vegetation between the site and the receiver if we were if we had a large well they're there for visual screening um but from a noise standpoint because the distance is relatively short between the Sound Source and the receiver um a row of trees or two rows of trees isn't going to do a whole lot acoustically um it will benefit the residents from a visual screening but we have a a landscape architect after me and also did as a reminded November December January February March right we need a motion to open to the public for questions of Mr murel we have a motion to open the public questions for Mr Morell so moved second second and I think Mr Cole has a few questions don't we need a roll call no no okay if you don't mind I'll stand here I don't want to talk over Mr Mor that's perfect it makes it easier for me to turn um mran as a preliminary matter um I do want to State a just an objection on the record um Mr alie's comments that League went beyond uh the impartial nature of the the board and we're more probative and opinionated than I think was Mr [Music] [Applause] I [Music] [Applause] [Music] h [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] good y okay yeah Mr Mela just a step back a second um my question was whether or not or or was to just clarify what's depicted on page 12 the two graphs there no Bearer and wi Bearer those are what would be if there's an ceremony without any noise amplification is that correct yes just normal conversational speech of almost 300 people okay and what does that reflect as we look at the northeastern property as those lines of those lines go out how how loud would that be at the the bar at the at the northeastern property there at the property or at the building at the at the property okay at the property we predict sound levels of just about 50 DBA without a barrier about 40 by pbaa with bar and when we go back to the amplification models that you depict um we'll start we'll just work backwards on the loud assuming everyone gets really Rowdy and it's very robust ceremony what levels do those hit at the property line and then also at the building to the Northeast there so again you're now we're talking about I'm assuming figure five on page 11 that's the loud speech unamplified with no barrier at the property line of about 65 DBA in the nor easterly Direction about 60 DBA in North easterly Direction at the structure at the house excuse me and then if we go one more page back in your report page 10 if you could just give those numbers one more time certainly um without a barrier you have a sound level of approximately 67 that's Amplified music with regular level speech and with a barrier of about 60 or 61 and the house um without a barrier of about 57 and with a barrier of about 50 so sorry to jump around on you again if we could go back to page 12 as I look at that graph a lot of it shows a lot of 40s a lot of green areas is that correct yes okay so what ultimately you're proposing here is that with or without barriers you're going to increase that noise level by about 30% no from 40 to 60 Debs the existing sound levels the the existing sound levels are 55 to 68 we're predicting sound levels even at the worst case scenario of 65 or 66 the existing sound levels with events outside or without events outside the existing sound levels we didn't measure the existing sound levels of an event you asked me what we predicted with a without a barrier I don't know what the existing sound levels are during an event theoretically if we were to have an event with no barrier the sound levels would be somewhere between 50 to um 605 depending on what scenario we're talking about um with a barrier as I said would be somewhere between about 6 to 8 DB lower than that the existing sound levels that I've quoted the maximum sound levels being 55 to 68 average 44 to 50 that's what just standing out there in the middle of the afternoon from noon to 700 p.m. okay and again I I'm I'm just going up of your sure graph here on page 12 where I see the 40 45 those are with the normal speech so I'm wondering if I'm sitting out there and there's no event there's nothing going on at the manner I can hear the birds actually chirping what is that sound level is that 40 as representing your graph where where I step away from the property line I look at the other properties in that area let me just be clear these in this chart Pages 10 11 and 12 11 12 and 13 those are predicted levels during some type of activities occurring the sound levels that we measured in November are in your your scenario standing out there listening to the birds that's what we did we measured the sound level at the property line with nothing going on and as I said those sound levels range from 44 to 50 GBA average 55 to 68 maximum what we have here are predicted sound levels if there was to be an event in that corner where them went out of barrier human voice loud human voice and Amplified so your predicted sound levels are lower than what you had tested so I'm I'm showing 40s and 45s along that property line and you're saying that it's up to the 50s so I'm I'm kind of missing that connection here where I I if that's what you're predicting how is it lower than what you tested because the sound level fluctuates at the property line so if you were to have something occurring while the sound level when there was no cars no trucks no airplanes no train horns then the sound level would be these predicted if the am ENT exceeds these numbers and because the ambient isn't constant we have to kind of give those ranges so I predicted let's say we were to turn ultap pan off that's what we have here not influenc in the ambient so when you have to kind of lay the two numbers next to each other they are comparable okay so what percentage increase will this actually cause the neighbors well it's difficult to say percentage because unfortunately Acoustics is a logarithmic so um what I can tell you is that we expect the sound levels that exist out there from the maximum sound levels of 55 to 68 the worst case scenario I I predicted was 66 DBA and that's right at the property line so at the house to the Northeast we expect sound levels that are within the average sound levels we measured in November now that's not to say if the ambient goes down and there's no cars or trucks and there happens to be the moment in time when something goes through the speakers that it might not be it might sound more or five or 6 DB or maybe even 8 DB louder but because the sound levels fluctuate and go up and down that type of worst case scenario would have to occur for something of that nature just kind of an opening question if you were in that property to the Northeast would you be able to hear the ceremony with or without the sound barriers I'm sure at some point if the ambient was to go down you would be able to hear it yes okay are you aware that this this property previously applied to have outdoor ceremonies and was denied that application it was not were you actually aware that they were stopped from making that application because they applied for it a previous time were denied that given other baren relief it's not we had discussed or I'm sorry you had discussed um time limitations on these events are you aware what time these events actually end I believe the outo I believe the applicant stip stipulated that nothing would occur Outdoors after 10 uh after 10: p.m. okay are you aware what time the indoor ceremonies ever and I am not okay I was only asked to evaluate the outdoor have you ever been Mar made aware of any noise complaints that have emanated from this property uh for indoor ceremonies I was made aware yesterday that there was a noise complaint but I'm not sure when it was but there was uh in during at some point during the previous [Applause] [Music] [Music] testimony thank you I don't believe I have any more questions thank anybody else in the public questions anybody in the uh public have any questions please step forward state your name spell your last name address Charles magio 30 de Drive New Jersey um I am a resident and a neighbor and uh and I'm I'm a simple resident I don't really know a lot about this so I just want to make sure I I want to get this right and I may ask you to repeat things that you already testified on but I just want to make sure I understand it the first question is this sound barrier location um was there any consideration to make it go further down Karen court so that it actually prevented sound or not prev mitigated sound from getting to the house on Karen Court which again I see from the decb it's not needed but certainly would help the situation has has any consideration been done to do that I assume you're referring to and I apologize because I'm not you're talking about the north I I want to point yeah I don't know I don't know either I think that's North but to go to here let's say no there was Noth any reason why there was no consideration to it CU that that that neighbor has been very vocal about the noise they probably not I don't know if they if they had filed the complaint or not but I know that they've been very vocal about this issue so that's first question um and go a second one did I answer it not really but I mean I I I'd like to know why a consideration wasn't done to extend the sound barrier to where there's a house as opposed to their backyard we we evaluated and we thought this what was practically necessary okay second question is um you testify that you did not do any sound studies of an existing event so why was that considering that that is the Crux of this whole issue the complaints that the neighbors are making concern with the board is that these outdoor events are causing excessive noise I heard you T we hav we haven't had since this application's been filed we the last time we had an outdoor event was actually two or three uh last Friday I believe or last Friday or Saturday other than that incident there has not been an outdoor event since the while the application's been pending so if if there happened to have been an event with bag pipes over this past weekend that was indoors and not outdoors I I apologize but I have absolutely no idea okay if there was an event with bag pipes Outdoors what kind of deciel levels would come from that right yeah it's over 100 Deb no AB it actually is um I it I have no other questions thank you oh I mean if you want to offer expert witness testimony but I'm going to tell you a dag pite is not 100 DB can you tell us your opinion about what you think that the B pipe is and where that comes from I have no idea where he comes 100 DB comes from in a bag pipe I don't know any musical instrument except for maybe an electric guitar if you're standing that there you have limit on speakers which is a great idea and we appreciate that but they are acoustical probably going to have to swear you win if you're going to get test although this is really not the time for Testimony you can swe man okay no objection no objection do you swear or affirm that the testimony will give is pring other to I do there are there are sounds coming they're emanating from the from the uh ceremony area as a resident I can tell you that I can tell you I heard all these sounds over the weekend that were very loud they drowned out music that some of us were playing in our backyard that's how loud it was if the concern of all the neighbors is regarding noise for outdoor ceremonies that's what should be studied not speech Outdoors not music indoors it should be the spe speech outdoor it should be music Outdoors unamplified music can be louder than Amplified music if there's a limiter on the on the speaker and if and and we can argue all day about a bag pipe I'm just using that as an example simply because we heard bag pipes over the weekend and that was very louage so I guess so we can debate all we want but that was it just for clarity and I think M Mel was clear about it we did study Amplified sound out side as well as unamplified voices so and we did not have a actual test case as part of the report because we have not had with the exception of what Mr maio discussed a moment ago we have not had any outside ceremonies while the application been pending before the board any other questions from members of the public anyone else in the public have a question of acoustical engineer I'm sorry I just have follow question agree um I Mr I do have one question um looking at the plans on the southide of property or the applicant proposed a 12T wall sound very and on the North and western side it was an 8ot complicated barrier that's not good I didn't hear anything about the basis of why it would be 12 versus 8T and the impact that it might have on join properties I just wanted to us certainly um we have basically because of the topographical um situation where that the way the houses are some are higher some are lower um in order to keep the sound levels where we wanted them to be below the code within the ambient the taller wall was needed on the south side that was all it was just it's just a geometric and topographical reasons so the top of the fence are roughly the same not quite but it's almost the same and there just a followup question if you were to put a 12T high fence on the North side or the west side would that reduce noise storage I'd have to model it I mean there is in any noise barrier design there's a diminishing return you know you get to a point where you can just keep going up um I don't know where that is um but it's possible we could get a little more reduction um by going higher but that's not what we model okay I have a couple of follow-up questions normal sound at the property line with ultap pan turned on is what the average sound level over the period of time we measured from noon to 7:00 p.m. ranged from 44 to 50 DBA the maximum sound levels that occurred during those periods of time so when the truck goes by when the airplane goes by when the train horn goes off range from 55 to 68 DVA and what's the law allow 65 TVA but the ambient the the cars the trucks the trains the airplanes that's not subject to it so it's there's kind of two two ways to look at it what's the increase in sound and what's the code compliance issue but the code is 65 DBA for Amplified right for Amplified music and with the sound barrier at 8 ft what will it be with Amplified music um at 75 DBA with the barrier we predict 61 DBA the highest and that's right behind the wall to the north as you get further away in all directions the sound level drops off where at the nearest home to the Northeast it's about 50 51 dbaa and that's below what the law allows at 65 correct okay and that's just the Northeast side which is camera Court correct if we were to go to the South and the Southwest the numbers are even lower than that they get into the 45 to 50 DBA range same scenario Amplified music 75 DBA and um low voices and that's the opposite side of the proposed wedding ceremony site yes so the driveway side the driveway side okay yes okay the 65 uh the limit limit is that sustain you know uh limit or it can go up like for few minutes no it it it's it's akin to a speed limit um it's it's the sound level that cannot be exceeded like the wind you know you have sustained wind and then you have it's it's easier for a piece of a mechanical equipment cuz mechanical equipment when it's on produces a steady sound level and it's much easier to visualize when we talk about human voices or music or or anything like that the sound level goes up and down um so what we try to predict is the maximum sound level as the noise goes up and down so we're looking at the maximum sound levels as it bounces around um compared to the 65 DBA code so you're to be clear I know we said it your expectation is that at no point during any party Serv anything is it really going to exceed 65 DBA the music yeah there there might be a point when you have some can't count for the harah the what you know the cheer whatever there might be a point when you have some people that are either not in the seaing area or just outside and they raise their voices that will exceed it um but that would be the only scenario and that's not subject to the code but the reason we have 75 DBA on the limiter is that anything that plugs into that limiter is not going to exceed 65 DBA in your experience what would what is something like that with that crowd size how loud could it get for those couple of seconds or that you know minute a without a barrier it could get to be 70 or so some DBA at that property line which is why we're predicting 66 and that's a maximum of everyone yelling her out one time thank you is there is there um a increased benefit based on distance of where you put the these barriers closer or further away does that help reduce it um we we really don't have a lot of room to play with in this case because that's not my question my question is could it be reduced the sound the sound could have be muffled reduced even more if the barrier was moved further out or closer in that was my question typically the closer to the noise Source the more the higher performance you're going to get out of a barrier okay and where are the barriers positioned in relationship to the patio right up against the edge of it okay the Northerly wall is right up against the proposed Bridal area and there's no Landscaping in between it it's right at the physical end there is currently Landscaping along the northern property line that I understand although I haven't witnessed it personally um is higher than 8 ft but that's that's that's Landscaping on the outside of the sound attenuation wall right okay it's on the other side of the wall on the resident side would a burn also help in the area of concern that Mr maio brought up would an additional burn if was added would that help I don't believe there's enough room in there to put a burm cuz typically for every one foot we go up on a burm we have to go 3 ft out at the base there's really not enough space to put a burm on this property line any other board members have questions any member of the public questions of Mr Mela just right here okay you have another witness just give me one second one second Mr please I icis first truly an amazing accomplished gr did they play in London according to what I was listening to the way may have been around was so I don't thank you [Music] okay raise right hand swear best I can these guys the testimony will give it this proed shall be off God yes I do for the I can State your full name please and spell your last name Paul Keys 44 Courtland T New Jersey [Applause] 07670 thank you Mr keing can you give the board the benefit of your qualifications please sure I can have education wise associate greate from Burton Community College in ornamental horiculture I've been teaching in that program for 36 years I an undergraduate from Ruckers University environmental planning and design with a minor in urban studies from the University of arino I have a master's in Environmental Studies with a concentration environmental public policy and a concentration education from Monclair State University in the New Jersey school of conservation in Stoke St Forest New Jersey and and professionally I've run a landscape design and construction business for 36 years I've operated a licensed landscape architecture business in the state of New Jersey for 18 years and uh I've testified before this board on this property prior and numerous other boards before the county and the state I think we can accept this qualifications as a landscape architect thank you thank you Mr re Mr Keys would you have uh propped up on the chair for can you identify that for please the A9 yes please what do we name A9 sure now what are we calling this so a landscape plan okay so can you give us the date please sure the date on this is the revision was 729 24K I'm sorry before you testify to the plan can you tell the board if you had an opportunity to visit the site numerous SES you familiar with the existing landscape evening yes I am as far as the proposals relative to the circular driveway and some other elements relative to expansion of the building you're familiar with that yes thank you can you take us to the Landscaping how we're going to address some of the new improvements sure let's talk about existing conditions right now first when you come in the driveway there's a series of flowering trees uh on the buffer uh along the outside you have an existing uh dense Spruce buffer um the this part of the spruce buffer is at grade level this part of the buffer of spruce is on a burm which is about 3 or 4 ft High you have numerous existing shade trees in canopy which are represented by these lines on this property line and these black dots in here um this around this patio here or this little area this Fountain area is a mixed flower garden with some Evergreens and some Spruce in there and then you have an existing Evergreen barrier that runs along the back patio where they're going to have ceremonies um those plants range from 12 ft to 8 ft in height and as far as the L scamping that exists along in the South can you give us a description of that on the south barrier you have a Evergreen hedge along that a dense Evergreen ARB body hedge all along that driveway and how high would about 8 to 10 ft to maintain well thank you as far as what we're proposing so the proposed landscape plan kind of build Zone what we have here um very little planted around the existing trees for obvious reasons um on the circular area here we have uh in this area here we're adding six flowering trees snow goose cherries 15 20t in height white flower in the spring no disease uh nice flowering trees some boxwood underneath and some decorative plantings in the middle um on the uh edge of this turnaround area here we're going to have a series of flowering trees am laners at 15t height underneath that we're going to be planting SLE orals coming and at 4 4 1/2 ft height uh those skip Laurels can grow to about 16 ft in height uh which I have in my own yard basically we keep them trimmed and um deer resistant behind that we have an additional layer of spruce going to plug up some of the holes in the existing Spruce barrier so you're going to have a really nice densely planted burm there that BM comes up a couple of feet so those trees are up behind uh ground and then what you see in this hatch Mark all along here is pandra so you have Spruce Laurel pandra the existing Spruce the existing trees and then an existing 6t wood fence behind that so you have layered plantings for this turnaround car um I did a quick little old school sketch of what a car would look like right through here based on the Contours of the elevations and here's your car height your lights again you know an SUV might even be up in here a little bit more even a little bit higher this is the height of planting height of planting this tree will get higher over time this will get higher over time your sight I wonder if we could have public get a view of this because he's sure sure sure you stand we have we don't have any that would be helpful because then the board can see it yeah it's okay you want bring the chair over so can everybody see that you want to use the chair pull oh put chair hold this all the time music it's going to go quick your to come through here this is actually the curve it drops down and then comes back up on that with the 6ot B over here so I tried to show how the lights would really be first intercepted by these plantings then the second layer new planings and then the existing planings were T off this height this is exact to scale 6' fence on the other side that land drops down another foot on the other side of that so it's kind of an easy way to demonstrate how the plings are going to really down as far as if you could putli back to the second page Paul please the imagery on the bottom of that second sheet can you explain that you know this again this is the amlan here this is the Hedge you're looking right here this way right onto it so have the existing hedge and then this is the tree line behind that and those are the exact trees CU we use a mount to identify and the the intention of that those plantings at the midpoint closes to the proposed circular driveway is to Shield lights as they circulate yeah counterclockwise it's a Cher too which is very dense Lea thick leathery Leaf flowers in the spring dear resistant and as far as when we get into the fall and winter season can you talk Evergreen we have layers of Evergreen here we have one layer two layers three layers and then so have three layers of Evergreens and material in there as well thank you Paul I don't have any further questions Mr board members questions all right we're going to take questions from the board Mr Zabo in terms of landscaping we found the Landscaping we reviewed the landscaping and everything that has been described does ACT to buffer and screen as much as can be expected under the circumstances and we find the planting is acceptable and the species acceptable um mostly uh Native and and non-invasive plants which is what we encourage so I have no other comments really but we did look at it thank you Mr Young uh no questions if I remember right um the height of the entrance will accommodate an actual bus or some bus level size I don't remember how many passenger bus but are those lights also going to be covered by the trees yeah I mean most car lights headlights truck lights you know dot restricts the heights of headlights and cars to a certain height those are the lights that are going to project out headlights lights on top of a bus or delivery trucker really indicator lights marker lights not really reflecting a lot of light so yes I would think that even a bus Mini Bus delivery truck would also be knocked out by that okay no other questions so the headlights on the bus are basically the same height as an SUV yeah or fire truck or anything else you know SUVs have gotten up a little bit you know they've gotten up there a little but it'll still cover but over time everything's going to grow these chars are going to grow like we oh I didn't so other than the other trees other than the Evergreens do those leaves come down in the fall yeah we have um some deciduous trees flowering trees obviously have a little Variety in landscape every part you know our Landscapes now evolv into very self- sustaining not but we even a lot of everen ground cover because we want all links on the property so we want low maintenance we want healthy plants but the key if when the leaves drop the evergreens are still going to protect the lights yeah and you know you know Char it's got a thick leathery I don't know I'm a city kid that's it m got nothing thank you I don't have any questions thanks ask we have a three ordinance that was pass recently are your all the plants are in compliance I don't believe I'm removing any trees so I don't think you're planting new trees right that's only designed for mitigation the tree ordinance deals with required mitigation okay not new not these are just these are plantings uh not respons planting supplemental plan also new Section 8 a I guess you're showing like 30 how many years it will take to get those are [Applause] existing Mr Kramer no questions Mr open to the public for questions open to the public for questions char yeah sorry I just have to take a look at the M second make sure I'm midle between Mr Keys um I note on your landscape plan it does not depict where the sound bar is will be located is that correct that is correct okay and how would that and sorry to reference this how would that impact this level right here if I point to what is the northern part of the property line it appears that the we when a straight line is they indicate that the sounds would be right next to the ceremony area it would then impact some of that Landscaping have you a that this is right here is annual planting so if that fence is if it's right up against there against the patio it's not going to impact the existing plan as a matter of fact I think it enhances the area for ceremonies and with additional plantings in front of it could be very attractive but it's not dep picked on that plan is it no I'm not a sound expert so I wouldn't I'm just saying the not to down no it's not but I'm not the expert on that that would be on Harry's plan or and in terms of your expertise you did indicate the light spillage is that part of your expertise as a landscape it's not my expertise my experience okay when you looked at this um and I don't see any of the plans that depict where the adjacent property is did you look at how the turning radius would actually impact have the properties located here or here right here as they turn out of the well again we have interesting very extensive barrier going around the entire property of existing vegetation that's pretty dense and then another 6 that then canopies of trees on the adjacent properties and planting only adjacent properties this property right here is pretty heavily wooded this not so much so we beat have you gone to Ken Court yeah okay and you have you seen a cars coming in out that parking lot from in court uh no I go during the okay right so you have I don't look at landcap but as you talk about light it would be relevant to see I'm telling you based on my experience of 40 years I think this is going to the best to mitigate the lights com off across okay you don't have any personal experience having gone to Caren court and seen whether or not that's actually case like I said I don't have a reason to go Caren court and there's no right I only go during the day on the landscape design yeah I'm just trying to make sure I understand the scope of your testimony and what you did or did not experience I'm not really understanding the question but that's okay all thank you any other questions from members of the public of the landscape [Applause] architect any additional question the board busy next we don't have any further witnesses to you Mr you guys don't even see my mouth move do you when I do that good thank you for your time thank you okay we don't have any additional nothing further we have one witness remaining which is planner our planner David spatz who will testify the next available meeting do we know when that will be right now the application hasn't been scheduled for a follow-up date so depending on what the board's agenda permits well I'm trying to prevent you from having to do another notice uh let me just I know that um it was mentioned that there was an October 30th date um if I can just take a brief recess just to see if Mr spat is available that even give him call we don't know what else we have that night not yet do we want to just carry to the why don't we carry it to October 30th and see where we go it may not get hurt on October 30th understood um depending if we have three or four other applications you're probably not going to make it although if you just have one more witness but that could take a while because I expect there'll be a lot of questions of the planter yeah Mr I do want to bring to the board attention I will be calling my clients as witnesses as well to present testimony if it's that here in our another one um just want to make sure that we have that as well you'll have ample time yeah I don't think it's going to take too long for them to testify but I I just want to put that out there you have any any Witnesses aside from your clients or you don't ask for Witnesses so we'll take we'll carry to 10:30 without further notice and then we'll I'll I'll speak to the board secretary regarding what the agenda looks like members of the public this uh hearing will be carried to October 30th without any additional notice thank you all have a good evening thank you thank you public opportunity to speak yes need a motion yes open to the public for any item not on the agenda need a motion to open the meeting to any item to public for any item on the agenda move second second favor I anybody seeing none motion to close moved second second all in favor I I guess we'll see everybody October 30th Mo meeting and work on the next meeting October 30th 2024 motion to adjourn so moved second second all favor have a good night I bye how are you the chairman I didn't say anything about the sneakers and no socks these Areo now I'm starting to get