you got it so we avoided all having to settle a lot of times with them because you because of the litigation or or you end up usually towns are forced to because again John correct me if I'm wrong towns never win on us okay we have about as much chance yeah of winning in Superior Court as someone else has of winning in a jury in the hand but those are those are the those are the old rules those are the old rules they're gone what's important to understand is that there are significant deadlines the that the burough faces as a result of the Amendments and 18th is the first one first one and they're trip wires for litigation and for losing your protections right now the first deadline and I had these discussions with the governing body and with Anna uh the first deadlines are really reporting deadlines un residential development and that's due uh June 18th but there's no penalty I mean there's nothing you know what the statute doesn't say you file it with the pro yeah I'm had a meeting at affordable housing committee a meeting this morning a neighboring Town yeah and they were all asking the question you know said we're going to send it to the governor I said well send it not only to the governor send it to the Senate President and de I would you could do that I our recommendation is you send it to the commissioner of DCA and then that the commissioner of DCA say that I doesn't but but if DCA is the reporting agency that has to come up with the numbers what's the deadline what's the 18th FL the Department of Community the State Department of Community Affairs so how they select the members no no no they're they're they're State staff they're they're staff people they're employees career bureaucrats career bureaucrats Mike got a question for the 600 municipalities in New Jersey yes individ no well Urban Aid communities are EX uh but every every they're going to have to come up with numbers for the entire State yeah I mean there are numbers out there that's renan group the obligation will be will be based upon the Jacobson decision and reading's uh determinations and methodologies which are consistent with the what what the what the Supreme Court has has accepted um and we've been using Jacobson's numers so what seran came up with was basically what he they saw as numbers that would come out of Jacobson's methodology they are and numbers we're unfortunately this this these amendments this amendment is just going to ask a it's just going to invite in litigation we're going to end up in situations where we're going to have a number a developer going to have a number we're going to be back into court arguing what number is right I mean will the DCA get numbers out by October 20 I heard and there's no penalty for them if they don't I heard last week that they were interviewing firm to help them get developed in numbers now it's May right it's May what happens if they don't if they don't hit the October 20th deadline there's no the way I read the statute and I'll defer to Mr Igan there's no penalty to DCA but we still have to adhere to the adhere to the number if they give the number uh can you imagine end of December you'll still have to do it by January 31st right and and can you legisl to extend can you imagine old depan would have to this is how the numbers are generated you have to get a number for the entire State break it down by region housing regions and then distribute it to all the mun eligible municipalities you're going to counties in our region right so how do you do that we can we come up with numbers but you know they're going to get challenged um so these are these are going to be this is the uphill battle I I made the governing body aware of the deadlines they're aware of the law they know what's going on um they're already working on this I encouraged the government body to start now yeah I've recommended to my town committee let's let's start the the uh form right three three members of the governing body so you don't have a forum and three members of the planning board and start meeting with your planner and and your special counsel or your attorney you can do that without even having the number from yes absolutely absolutely you have to have to be ready on on October here's what what we would recommend the process be exactly form the subcommittee that Mr Regan for just mentioned let's do a vacant land assessment let's update that because that's still valid let's know and then let's start talking about where the the build where the housing may or may not go where You're vulnerable Where You're vulnerable at this point you know you're built up yeah I've been thinking in one of my towns and I'm not going to mention the town obviously but how vulnerable they really are I and I'm thinking maybe we do nothing well here's the caveat to that and and and a danger it's a risk there's a risk it's a you know what you're referring to is risk assessment that's exactly right what's your risk if you have 20 if you have 100 acres in your community that's vacant you're at big risk if you have no acreage you may opt to say you know what we're not going to participate in this however under Section 62 of the land use law you have to have a housing element to protect your zoning so you adopt theing element and you and you wait for somebody to sue you if it happens that's what we could work on between now and then I mean you're you're fortunate I know it was probably some of the developments that have occurred here like Pearson and others have been controversial you're happy they're off the table yeah you should be because because you would be facing greater density under this statute to be 20 to 30 units per record and I don't know what Pearson is Pearson is nowhere near it's like 12 units they on a townhouse part I mean we Weis Nichols done we we were fortunate that we intervened in that that whole process of the purchase with the protect projected purchaser the contingent purchaser we didn't want that P that entity who's purchasing the property to become an intervenor because we knew once it got before judge farington and fair share got their hands on it and they became interveners the the density there would easily have doubled and the only way to go there with the doubling you see what the town houses take up into you're going up you're going up just like the apartment building that the the multi family building and the the height the height requirements don't apply do whatever want off the window so the whole point of this process is to control it so that you have a a defensible plan for numbers and you can defend it yeah and that way on October 20th the next day you you know what your number is and you you you have a strategy right as opposed to waiting till Christmas I I agree but you have to but the problem and this is another example of an unfunded mandate the towns are going to have to spend the money and they're going to have to do the analysis and and protect yourself you know but I was asked an interesting question Monday Night by a council person who said on a scale of 1 to 10 what's our risk you like what what and not not what what is our risk but where do we stand with other communities i i i opine that you know six or seven you know you're fully built you've made progress towards your third third round but you still have an outstanding obligation out there and I know that the third round exactly and I know that there are a couple properties here we got to talk about not tonight that might be vulnerable to potential it may be and so maybe we address those now this is how we segue into the re-exam part of the reexamination subcommittee and and the planning board can can do this would be to start thinking about housing and where do we want to put it and make those kind of recommendations in the document and the recommendation can also be we amend our land use element at the same time to address these issues um but I wouldn't go as far as amending the land use element until we've had a conversation with the subcommittee with the council to talk about um housing and whether this is something that would work but it it's the planning work you're going to do on the Rea is going to inform the housing element yeah it'll be like the foundational document I think so and and and there's nothing wrong with the planning board saying you know here are potential areas that we think are appropriate for affordable housing if they exist I'm I'm not making any judgment this is not about you know what I think now for what the BR should do I'm talking process so what you were alluding to before regarding the timing of our reexamination and this deadline of January 31st that's why it's it's fortuitous for us right yeah it's it's it's kind of coinciding together so that the work you're doing can inform the housing that has to be done so you're not duplicating the effort it's all happening and as I indicated to you previously Mr chairman you know new statistics are coming out the American survey is coming out with new stuff and we can get to work we were just awarded the contract so the way I I I see this proceeding is we're going to do some background work we'll do mapping we'll update the statistics we'll show you where developments occurred where the areas have changed if any and then we can form the subcommittee and start talking about the policies and recommendations uh for going forward Not A lot's going to change you have an established land use pattern you're a a single family community with a commercial center and with affordable housing in locations that are designated by your housing plan there's not much more to change we did a pretty thorough job the last time around with policies what I would review with the subcommittee which will eventually make its way to the full board is here are the changes demographically that has occurred in your community which will be basically the growth that's happened over here and that's about it you know um demographically there hasn't been that much I'm not I can't imagine major shifts in population other than what we've encouraged through our housing plan as a result of Mount laurl so a lot of the policies that we just need a subcommittee to look at these things talk about other issues reaffirm or modify what's in the docum yeah and all the heads together we'll look at what properties you may be vulnerable right you don't have a lot of vacant Office Buildings what's the what's the process for doing that for identifying the vulnerable properties like you we Well we I'm going to do we're going to do a vacant land assessment uh and and we're going to look at land use as part of the re-exam and any underutilized property because you probably don't really have it well that's the other caveat to the to the amendments to the fair housing act it's now you're now required to look at property communities that take a vacant land assessment and create an RDP are required to now look at properties that may redevelop don't don't don't I would just everyone should be thinking about we have Pro buildings on property but if those buildings sell were exposed like buy state that's a an absolute exposure by State's on my list of concerns regarding the re-examination but it sounds like it could be at risk also for affordable hous there a couple properties demolished let's get the information before we get into discussing vulnerabilities yeah comp I have a question I'm sorry um are any towns still actively disputing this with the state I know sadle River was at one point they would still fighting about R three you're still fighting I think Alpine we represent both I I don't we don't I don't we don't we're not involved in angle with Cliffs but uh I don't know where they are but they're mess can the towns consider banding together exactly what I no it's not going to help look I was I was asked at one meeting you know would it be helpful if we waited for the legislature to do something or should we take our chances in court and just fight this and my resp resp was well what has the legislature done for you lately anyway when was the last time they stepped in and helped the municipality you can answer your own question yeah the courts you're not going to get relief at the courts who do and and the question I I pose is who do who do they answer to who's they don't answer to you they don't even answer to the legislature who do they answer to the New Jersey Supreme Court who created the Mount Laurel Doctrine the New Jersey Supreme Court who invalidated COA the New Jersey who to them the visages that are now designated to handle affordable housing and the pressure that the court put on them was get it settled get it settled get it settle can you go to the Supreme Court over and above that no because a state Mount Laurel is a state constitution basis the US Supreme Court will not pass on a state constitution are we are we the only state that has this this affordable much I mean New York has some minor things the in the in entire United States New Jersey might be one one the only state that has this affordable housing affordable housing I will tell you that affordable housing is an issue why can't New Jersey go to the Supreme Court if we're being let's say prejudiced against by our own Supreme Court you don't have standing because it's your Constitution issue which is committed to the discretion of the state supreme court yeah you don't have standing Federal Constitution I will tell you people in different states are being hand L differently by their own Supreme Court that's come you take a case I'm trying to throw you a case you know like I'm handing you if you had a different Governor okay there I'm going to say it okay things would be different listen affordable housing is a nationwide issue and states are now looking at it there are State initiatives to promote affordable housing it varies no one has gone to the extreme that we have in terms of creating this formalized process but it it don't I don't want to uh mislead you to think that nothing's being done in the rest of the country no it's an issue because people have to have a place where they can live and work our children need a place to stay yeah it's nowhere near as comprehensive it's just not as comprehensive but those efforts are happening sorry I'm interrupting make the argument that this is enabling predatory behavior for developers everybody agrees with that no question of course they get 80% market and return for 20% or 4 irony of of what the state's trying to create is protective housing for everybody we're Beyond those arguments we beyond those arguments with all due respect years ago yeah 40 we're Beyond those arguments insane uh and and and what we have to focus on is how do we get through it because that argument that ship sailed a long timeo and that's and that's before sat in developers offices where they said we know the game we're we this is a town that you know we we're going to go to them and we're going to do 300 units they're going to take us back they're going to say okay they just did in W with Lake they they fought by the train station for Broadway development yeah they kicked it back now the town permitted 40 units instead of 100 I mean I've seen it a million times everybody Jersey they play this game the strategy is the least amount of land it's insane I could say the amount of land goes down amount of developable land goes down when the housing obligation goes up doesn't that make sense it be an old argument but it's a Rel it's a relevant argument look I as a planner I will tell you ethically yeah we need to promote some level of affordable housing I agree with that I don't object to that I object to how it's being the plan itself John 20% of the to let's say 20% of a total bu building envelope or 802 but it's gone though if the number is 200 we need what 12 ma correct I'm trying to figure that after accounts want to bail me out but it's more than a thousand units there are some unit there's there's limits that are set in the statute that that you can't surpass in terms of increasing your housing stock um it's no longer 8020 anymore they did away with the credits right they actually took away credits you no longer are eligible for 50 uh for credits for rentals the emphasis the emphasis is on partnering for with nonprofits group homes and 100% the problem with the 100% minely sponsored projects is you're on the hook for it if a developer you hook up with a developer that does 100% affordables And they're out there there handful that we work with if they decide we you know in mid project we can't do it we're going bankrupt thank you Bob well part of that process you have to adopt the resolution committing to bond committing to bond for the balance and you're now in the housing business so that's why a lot of towns shy away from 100% municipally sponsor but that's what the statute is pushing for remember Mount Laurel the original concept was and this this is the point I try to get across you are not responsible to build let's say you have an obligation of 100 units the municipality of ultan does not have to physically build the 100 what you cannot do is use zoning as a mechanism to keep out different housing types have to provide a realistic opportunity through zoning and other mechanisms because what what what what was happening was towns would take would create 5 acre zones that's it well I can't afford you know an Estate in Bernardsville and so you know th this is the Genesis of it you cannot use zoning and that was always really the law that you know that's called exclusionary zoning it was always in the zoning um theory that you can't do that what the what the what the New Jersey Supreme Court did was they made it a constitutional right now I Mr rean do tell me is there somewhere in the Constitution that says you're titled to fourble no okay that's how they chief justice wenson took phrases in the state constitution correct they created it is like so what land is that risk what what land creates a risk for us I don't want to talk about that right now the town prop I don't really want to talk about that let let's keep that in committee I think we have to let Mr Z have to be you're ready for a closed session it doesn't have to it can't I don't think our well subcommittees don't have to be public but at some point the minutes I don't like the idea of talking about specific sites at this point it's too early or even a public we're just giving people a list we start to put together the subcommittee for that as well well that's well the governing body would probably take the lead on that I would create a subcomittee with the for the re-exam we will look at affordable housing issues and we will then dovetail with the governing body okay that's a good segue into the reexamination cover some of that we need a subcommittee yeah we have a subcommittee um okay the the timing of the process you said you going to get some data what do you think the timing of that is well we' we've been awarded the contract um as of Monday and we can start working on it right away I should have some kind of a draft to you within the next month or so and then we could start having subcommittee meetings and then we think it's a four to six month process you were thinking maybe maybe three I I'm I'll try to you know do we want to make sure that it it overlaps with the potential of an October 20th yes deadline yes um one of the big concerns we had as planners is how we meeting these deadlines and if you don't see the real deadlines happen once DCA comes out with their number everything between that is planning work for us and administrative reports to DCA once the DCA numbers come out there are the trip wires yeah and and really what you should is act way before January 31 yeah I I before the holiday I I I don't know the our we were pulling our hair fighting this thing through the um league and we were League of municipalities and the uh conference of New Jersey Mayors and we presented a bunch of stuff and it fell basically on Def they made some changes to the statute but the Amendments but not it's still the deadlines are are frightening to us because and it's constant every next June you have to have your housing El and I don't I don't know how these how the courts and the court is going to the I talked about two entities it's going to be dca's like doing the numbers they're doing the planning stuff I suppose and the reports then the the administrative office of the courts the a is going to handle special judges right they're going to the AOC is going to handle the approvals and the adjudications of disputes I think alternative dispute resolution yeah it's it's it's so they're going so it's still within the courts which is why I'm saying it's a hybrid DCA is going to come out with numbers like in the old days with COA except it's it was COA but DCA was the staff to COA DCA hired ruers to do the numbers it's going to be DCA and then it's going to still stay with the courts because they're going to adjudicate these things so as part of the reexamination subcommittee it's been eight years since we did it I don't remember we didn't do it by committee last time we didn't have a subcommittee at all no uh I put together a document um I comp I I I compared it to your master plans I created policies affirm affirm I mean you know there's a whole process and I'll do that with the subcommittee again this is what we so I would encourage everyone on the board to read the re-exam that we last adopted last time yeah and then we'll work off of that document and the public is there an opportunity for the public to be a part of this as well or is that is that Comm is that well when we do a reexamination report you you have to have a public hearing no I'm thinking about actually as part of a subcommittee is that common or you you could uh the housing subcommittees that the some towns have formed include um members of the governing body planning board they can include a citizen but you are all citizens you're already citizens you're class fours your class three you know you're already citizens so mayor and Council and plany board members have some knowledge of it just bring someone from What fields it would complicate the process but the public needs to be informed I should also note then um Monday night I think you guys know Senator H's hosting like kind of like a town hall type of thing about affordable housing this coming Monday this coming Monday the 13th at the firehouse at 7 I me right yes so that's something I think the public should be aware of it's out there but it's not out I don't think that people really know that and she's coming she's been very helpful you know for our area it's interesting that a legislator who did the right thing on the vote as opposed to people who just voted party line and threw this right stick stuck at the municipalities good I was and and the other two people from distri 39 Monday 7 this up coming is it open for just town or is it like being promoted at a larger scale not that we want a bunch of people maybe we do I mean well she represents 23 towns so anybody I guess my point is is it the town set this up or she set it up and she's made an announcement through her committee to invite you know her whole jurisdiction I I think from from what I understand it's it's open to to anyone but it's it's being ho hosted and UL man that she's coming to talk to our town about it but of course someone from another town could come not going to everybody's welcome yeah yeah um but I I think people should know about that because that's where people can to get the most information before they come in September and you know complain to us about something that's going on that they should start at Square One start complaining to her first or get some answers from her about you could you could complain to her but it's it's more it makes you feel better if it's cathartic she's in the minority that's already on our side so yeah fundraiser of the other clowns I um I was remiss I I will provide Diane to distribute to the board uh the time frames and the synopsis of the of the statute so you have a better understanding of what's going on I provided it we we we went right to the governing bodies because for God's sake I mean they're the ones that don't have to Grapple with this immediately they have to provide the funding for all of this and we got to make them aware expensive very and there's going to be litigation I'm I I I'm convinced going to be litigation Sherry so we have a subcommittee formed Mr chairman what's that we have a subcommittee we have we put together a subcommittee uh it's going to be myself uh councilman Boyce Nikki and Mike aarion okay and uh that's not to dismiss anybody else on the sub on the board one of people right and I thought it would be good would be helpful to have a bunch of people some diverse I will I will get started on on drafting and then we'll set up meetings for uh the subcommittee and we we can what was what is the pleasure of the subcommittee you want to meet it in the evenings during I mean you all work so I imagine it'll be evening meetings maybe what we'll do is we'll set up an email amongst the four we could do Zoom too I can I'm game for I'm game for that and I'm certainly game for evenings but I think we need to meet like a week or two before this meeting so that we can have an informed discussion which I guess is a week or two after this meeting too so yeah okay so my preference is is uh I mean I I like Zoom because it's it's convenient and I can share screens and maps and you don't have to strain your eyes to see boards uh and we could have free free discussions but we just got to keep good notes uh minutes because these These are subcommittee minutes that we need to maintain zoom zoom works fine record Zoom meetings you can record them exactly so that says record the one that says record yeah you hit the record button yeah so we'll establish once you have the once you're ready to start meeting with s commit we'll establish a time to meet and we certainly you know yeah work on that that's a good way to do it yes all righty anything else before we move on and no you're going to be busy this year going to be busy you're going to be busy awesome news very excited about all right any other Communications before we go to the next item on the agenda dang I don't see anything else all right so next we have resolutions we have the kodish is that memorialized as a variant granted by the board last month um involveed a 6ot fence with a portion of the fence um being six feet from the building to the property line of Charles place where where there is a 3-ft l so Vance was required in the board of and this was submitted to everybody so you had the opportunity to review it does anybody have any comments for Bob about it can we make a motion to approve it motion to approve second roll call somebody down there yes Mr Sure Mr yes yes Mr ER yes Mr ban yes Mr krer yes I have photos in my file for this did you get on the kodash application did you get them yes I I thought I might have the only set no she's provided very good okay thank you all right looking since there's no application anymore we have to open the meeting to the public for non-agenda items anybody want to make a motion make a motion second all in favor that there's nobody there make a motion second all in favor anything else before we adjourn motion to adjourn motion to adjourn second all in favor everybody have a great one campaign and