##VIDEO ID:he6lgD3Sgpw## right it is officially 6:30 so welcome everyone we will call to order the city of oroa Planning and Zoning commission agenda commission and meeting for Thursday September 12th 2024 I don't know if there's anybody it looks like out there three online and we will start then with roll call M Kathy BR Rucker chair I'm here commissioner Wendy Phillips Vice chair present commissioner Jim Richards here commissioner Jim Phillips here commissioner Scott Sorenson here commissioner Colleen freed here commissioner John Evans here and we have listed here staff Phil Carlson Phil with us I believe will be place will Hutchings will Hutchings staff Joe Palin and staff Jason Baker is here next on is approval of the agenda for this evening are there any changes or additions to the agenda yeah I would like to add uh if we could add it under as a under new business and move the presentation to B so the a would would be Kirk Barts what was that Kirk Barts Barts b a rtz yes and k r t it's k a k i r k k i r k so Kirk okay thank you okay any other changes there a second oh sorry second second so we have the agenda as amended as proposed all in favor of the agenda any opposed okay agenda is approved then next on is approval of the August 8th 2024 minutes they were in the packet anyone have any changes to the August 8 2024 minutes make a motion to approve I'll second we've got a first and a second all in favor of approval of the August 8th 2024 minutes say I I anyone opposed okay those have been approved we do have sorry the motion and we do have next on the agenda public hearings we do actually have to wait till 6 35 to officially open the public hearing so I'm sorry to disappoint you all you'll have to bear with us for two minutes one of the things with a public hearing because we do have to post it out there we have to publish it in the paper we do have to actually set a specific time with that so we were able to get through everything else fairly quickly tonight so let's hope that's a good sign but with the um public hearing as well when you do we will actually ask for comment at some Point here with the public hearing and if you do want to speak for the public hearing I mentioned before but there is actually slips at the podium that you can fill out if you do wish to speak for or against the applications as they come forward so if you do have a moment and you're thinking you may want to speak certainly feel free to walk up there and grab one now or you can do it then at that time too but the slips will say what is today's date which is September 12th the name of your name your address and the subject that is being presented so we actually have two public hearings that we'll have here today one is a petition for a variance and the other is an easement and drainage vacation at one is at 6:35 and one will be at 6:40 so we're at 6:34 we're getting closer folks you're ramping really well am you're almost there so and I have now officially 6:35 so I will call and open the first public hearing at 6:35 this is the public hearing that's posted for 6:35 p.m. the petition for variance 2202 Avenue Northeast and with the hearing open if there is anyone who would like to speak for or against the petition for variance and we actually have two so far here first I have James is it nobush Nosh and from 142nd Street Northeast chair chair if I may would you like a quick overview of these uh requests before the public uh come up to speak or do you want to hold off on that on the staff report yeah just we certainly could do the staff report I've got it actually scheduled after but oh okay we can wait then yeah let's have James if you want to come forward and James osers 142nd Street Northeast fla noal I have to apologize I can't hardly hear you guys my hearing is that bad anyway I haven't seen a map of this proposal at all I asked the city administrator and he just had a sketch no streets no north south on it whatsoever the issue here is not the build it's the gift this entire property is a water shed brings water from the uh Cemetery right down a lot of times on the street the Cs are not Main M the city doesn't maintain the ditch doesn't maintain the culs the gravel washes in and it comes in my garage at times my shop comes down the street so that ditch what I call a watershed the entire front yard of this house that's built on that corner is a water shed and it's silted in it's filled up with gravel we used to have gravel streets here the snow plow through the gravel right in the ditch and uh from the house South it's called Iowa Street and it's not closed it's a city-owned street the city owns nothing and does nothing to it I dig to ditch out with a shovel I've lived here for 24 years owned a place for 24 years I spray and keep the weeds out so the dog on water can float over the top of all the sil and get down to the river the city engineer needs to go out there and redesign that whole Watershed coming down from the cemetery and then continuing down Iowa Street Iowa Street's about two blocks so that's my complaint I've got at times I've had water come down the street if the grass and the mud are high on the shoulder and it goes in my shop because the city won't take responsibility for the ditches or the streets that have not been closed and now these people by understanding I haven't even seen a a drawing of this as the city administrator and he just had a sketch which show us nothing there's no I want no billing in that Watershed and the Watershed ditch to cut deeper and wider across the street we got the street ditch is plum full of gravel that'd be in front of Jack Khan's house directly across from me he built a stone wall around which acts as another Dam the two existing driveways are just dams nobody cleans them out uh Rebecca Riser used to own that house she had a contractor in their working she got disgusted coming up here to the city trying to get them to clean out the ditch and to cut the trees off the city property that blocked her property her solution she sold the house moved to Rochester but that's the issue the engineers have to do something with the before there's any more building on that Hillside um that's pretty much it that property is not set up there's a lot of acreage up to the hill why would you buy a piece of property shut the garage down that's there then build one on city property right next that's my understanding of where this garage is going there's where's the packet we're supposed to a pack of here where I could look at these guys have a map I guess so that's pretty much it no building until the city engineer fixes that blasted ditch coming down it can't handle water there's culverts on my neighbor across the street that are completely buried you have to take a tire Ender and go down four Ines to get the top of his driveway culvert that's how much dirt it so I thank you for your time thank you next on the list here I have Garrett senson yes 222nd Avenue Northeast correct yeah thanks for having me over uh you could have come over I would have been happy to show you the plans I'm owner of that house I've never met you not familiar with the the water I wish you would have come and spoken with me about this um I've got the drawings and my door is pretty much open you could knock on it at any time I had no idea that that you were having an issue with me wanting to build a garage on my property I would have been happy to speak well city property um my property your proper yes um so I'm not aware of this I've had home for uh two years I don't know about this water that he's speaking of I've never seen water or gravel or anything down there but um I'm applying for a variance because uh when I bought the house uh my contractor uh built uh we turned the Chuck under garage into space for my home business uh and he had done checking and said hey yeah we can build a a garage uh he had spoken with a believe Renee at the city um and then over the last year and a half we ended up getting the land surveyed as as was requested by uh somebody at the city I believe it was sunny at the time uh so we did get the uh survey done uh the reason that I am asking for the variance and I see in this map here that Phil had included in the packet um he's got the driveway yeah that was a mistake on our behalf and I'll speak to that Garrett yeah thank you yeah yeah the reason that um that we put the garage where it is is because I'm trying to make it so that I can also put up uh solar power there I'm a solar designer been into this for 36 years and uh want to have solar at my new place so this is why we chose to put the garage there I did go out uh and measure yesterday or Friday after I spoke on the phone with Phil uh the 10 feet is uh that I've got from the front uh front line is is worst case scenario it looks like we'll have enough room to be as far back as 16 feet and still have room for the 20 ft garage uh and therefore we've got plenty of room from that side uh property line as well or I should say the north property line uh will have more than six feet uh with a 24t wide garage I didn't put it further back and you can see in the uh in the uh I used a soul metric device that I used to measure the so resource uh in order for solar to work um the other two locations that were possible for garage I would have told the solar uh if I would have been Consulting anyone I would have told them please don't get solar it's not going to work for you the last one that you see um is is the one in the proposed location of the garage why I'm asking for the variance because we have good solar resource there it's not going to be shaded by the house and not too bad by trees um so that is why we put it there my contractor unfortunately is uh hiking in Canada right now or he would have been here tonight too and he wants to get the Apparently uh when I spoke with Phil he had asked that we do a uh two scale drawings which we will do uh we just needed to see if the variance was going to be approved first so um I'm not sure at this point if you have if you have questions for for me or I have just a couple sure the garage roof itself is going to be a Gable coming towards the road so it's it's pitching back towards your house and so it's pitching to the South and the west or correct yes to the South and the West okay yes sir so the front of the the front of the garage of the garage doors will be street street face and so you're hoping to capture on that sou side to capture the sun correct is there any reason why you can't put the solar on your house uh that is all shaded by the trees here the back side is the front I just drove by your house it's was still full sun on there yeah this well it'll be great you see it's kind of North facing this if I were if you were a customer of mine asking about solar I would tell you not to put them there because they're only really going to work during the summer there and I'm looking to have them work all year round uh especially with that pitch of roof if the pitch was less then it would work it would work better of course we'd have snow loss but I was up on the roof I did do readings usually when when uh I like to see readings above 65% solar resource those readings were at about 59 on that section of the roof and I could only fit according to the Minnesota fire setback CES because you have to be 18 inches down from the peak as well as have a three-foot walkway on each array plane when it's on a home uh it means that really I'd only get a couple panels there and it wouldn't if you put on that small G yeah and it just wouldn't pay it would it wouldn't be worth it your so reason foreve in the garage is to have a garage but you want know where it's at because you want to put solar on there yeah both and this this location the other location we was possible was up here but of course there's no shade and we would have to do a lot of excav ating same with putting and Phil and I spoke to this as well we talked about the garage over here uh but then we've got more shade and a lot of Excavating because it's uphill and we would have to go over wherever they smash the old septic as well would be there so the shading is is all from the house yeah are you looking at the the first one yep that's the hous is right here MH these are trees uh to the East and this is let's see I can't remember yeah that's Sky number one so that's right back uh right about here and then I did more readings right here that's the second one I see Phil didn't include that there but that reading was uh also low the only reading that we get good for solar is right right in that proposed location again it's it's the house is the issue that's that's causing the the shadowing or is it the hill or Y what you're seeing mostly right there that big chunk right there is the house itself okay in the statement it says that the trees are also shading the area that would be at the 25 foot setback is that correct y yeah trees and the house there and then it just wouldn't I wouldn't be putting solar there any other questions at this time thank you yeah thank you now I do have to ask a couple more times so is there anyone else who would like to speak for or against the variance is there anyone else who would like to speak for or against the variance I will just ask one last time is there anyone present who would like to speak for or against the variance and as there's no one at this time I will close that portion the public hearing for this what is the time and the time is 649 we'll move on to the staff report and Phil is not here but we do have will Hutchings yeah uh thank you uh chair Brandt Rucker and members of the planning zoning commission um I am here tonight filling in for Mr Carlson he was unable to make it here uh to be with you this evening but um yeah I I think you've heard some of this so I'll just detail a little bit of this for the Public's benefit so the first of two items I'm here to present on is a front yard setback for that detached garage as you know the applicant is Garen Sorenson uh he is both the applicant and property owner and his requesting your consideration of the variance from the strict application of the required 25 foot front yard set back uh zoning standard for the property located in the R1 District uh this would uh alleviate um uh his his location issues with regards to maintaining solar access to the the solar panels he would like to install on the proposed accessory structure um and is it possible to get um the uh second page of our staff memo up on the screen as well or I just want to show for the public and those who might be watching at home uh where this the structure would be in relationship to lot lines and and ditches and whatnot um as proposed this variants would reduce the setback from the required 25 feet to 10 feet uh for the front right away line the required six foot sidey yard requirement still be met and I'm not going to go into the technical modeling I think Gary did a great job of that I i' i' do it as service if I tried to but um one thing we did want to note is that in our exhibit we acally included an earlier draft we had made where it showed the driveway as a shared access configuration that is no longer the case in talking with the applicant it was always his intention to get access from Second Avenue Northeast now one thing I will note on this is that excuse me um oftentimes when you have a overhead garage door uh in the the amount of Stace distance you want between the the RightWay line or the property line in those garage doors is enough to reasonably fit a vehicle not with the vehicle if it's not parked in the garage or if they have guest over it's not encroaching over top of that RightWay weight line um so the 10 feet would not provide enough space but I'm I'm I'm happy to hear that the applicant believes he has more than 10 feet in front of that ultimately we still support the decision knowing that there's no sidewalks or anything that would impede uh like pedestrian movement if a vehicle was part there um so and then again uh you guys got to see the um the solar U models that were created for this and and we are aware that the the site plan that was submitted is not sufficient as handrawn and not survey ex accurate so um uh prior to approval or prior to the issu of any building permit a site survey that accurately reflects the uh the property conditions in the new in the setback if granted this evening must be provided based on the findings contained in our planning mem we do recommend the the support of the applicants request to the city council for the variance request for a 10-ft front yard set back for a new garage for the property at 2202 Avenue North E A submitted in describing this report with the one following condition the app must submit an accurate Seline before a building permit is issued showing the location in the garage as no closer than 10 feet to the front RightWay line to Second Avenue Northeast and no closer than six feet to the North side Lot line you happy to answer any questions you have questions any Commissioners with questions I have a question [Music] um the request is for approval of a 10- foot setback but the petitioner believes that he can do it at 16 feet why would we approve a 10- foot setback or why are we being asked to approve a 10- foot setback when it could be a greater distance than that if we approve 10 feet then we're locked into that here um commissioner you're absolutely correct um this is new material findings that staff was not aware up until this point uh you are certainly welcome to um recommend the approval as stated you're welcome to recommend denial and create fundings the fact that that basic that support your decision you were also able to amend the uh staff recommendation um you know without an accurate survey I I might indicate a it might be good to have some leeway just in case you know you majored 10 feet I know when I pull a tape major out it starts to curl and I you know lose a foot or lose an inch every you know foot I pull it so it might be wise just to make sure we don't go too low that it's it's once again restriced and you'll be back before this board again but you certainly have the right to to amend our recommendation well you said something about writing findings of fact for denial of the variants um stantech has actually already written those oh did we okay part of this I apologize yeah okay got you can you turn that Volume Up by chance it's really hard to hear him here but is this help at all if I piece closer yes oh yeah that'll help thanks thank you any other questions at this point now I've got a question actually so would this request for variance as it's drafted in the sketch that we have and it sounds like we'd get ultimately a a final draft though would this request if the variance is approved would it impact that water Flowage issue that's a great question that's why I was hoping to be able to show that exhibit up on the screen um there there should be you'll be able to there it doesn't really the only change I can see that would possibly have any impact to flow and I defer to Joe Palin in the room this is the engineer but um ultimately if there's a a secondary access approach for the the new proposed garage um we want to make sure that that's adequately sized to ensure that the the storm water can still continue to flow at the volumes and and the the amounts needed um and then I am not certain I know he had said that the garage that's in the house is no longer a garage it's actually an office space so perhaps the applicant could speak to whether or not he plans to remove the existing uh d way apron uh and have the one for the garage be the one and only for this propos property I I'm just not familiar with this this that much to know if I can answer that one and that was my second question was would this request add a actual second driveway then or would it just have the one driveway a second I was just saying I think there's a couple variances that are that are there that haven't been addressed in this and you know putting in a different another driveway is got to come into the effect too and and also you know if you're you're setting back 16 and what we've got here is is 10 we can't um make a I don't think an accurate accurate uh decision on what's going on here with this without having all the facts that are here for the variant here if I may I I I might defer to the applicant to know if he would be comfortable if the variance request was reduced from 10 to 16 feet uh I just I I I'm always a little leery to make that because it's a a material change at the podium that I I wasn't aware of and B I just you know without a a survey I want to make sure that he doesn't get hamsted and have to come back in a month when he gets that survey done and find that that is not going to work you know but we still recommend approval whether it's 16 or 10 ft one of the concerns that I have about this is that it it sounded like and and maybe I misunderstood this is that you said that at the back of your property there is another place that you could build a garage but that you wouldd have to do more Excavating the issue that I have is that we're currently rewriting city code to bring it more up to date we don't want to be doing things and granting variances that are going to set a precedent throughout the entire city that we would be accused of bias if we Grant something for one person and we don't Grant it for another especially if they've got another location on their property where they can build and the thing that is prohibiting them from wanting to do that is the fact that they would have to do some ex excavation of it you may address that absolutely sure please well a couple things first to to hit on the driveway thing I was under the impression that the current driveway was to be removed in order to make the new driveway for the new garage uh so that was already part of the plan um because they told us we couldn't have two driveways and I didn't want two driveways uh the other thing as far as uh the other location the possibility for the garage was up here which is uphill kind of behind the house um so not only is it more Excavating there's also it's also completely shaded so there's not a chance for for solar up there and it's it would I'd have to come the driveway would have to come here right off the corner of Second Street um and then go all the way around up there U if that drawing is making sense there um in speaking to the 10 or 16 foot uh thing the uh when I had gotten a chance to text with Mike when he was out of one of the mountains he said go for the 10 feet and that's what Phil and I had had spoken about on Friday as well uh for the 10 feet um I mentioned that it looks like we could go up to 16 I'm applying for the 10t variance just because having it further out away from the house and away from covering up any of the windows in the basement which is where the living room is uh would would be nice to not cover up those windows as well so a few a few reasons but I hope I spoke to the the driveway piece uh okay that I this request would not add a permanent second driveway correct this this one's going away the one currently in front of the house um that the coverts will remain that are there there's two big culverts underneath it to allow any water flow I've never seen water in them but um and then there'll be new new culs Under the the new driveway that would come off the garage there so in in the interest of uh saving wow a lot of concrete from having to be bed which will make it so that I just wouldn't do the garage I'd be without a garage because it would just be cost prohibitive as well and not be able to do the solar so any other questions I'm happy to answer what is your bigger priority is it building your garage or having the solar panels it's well I want I want to do both I understand that but if if having a garage on your property because you've converted another garage into an office is that correct correct um um I'm just I'm just struggling in my own head with justifying a variance when you can have a garage which is the necessary part the the solar panels I understand that you your company makes them or you sell them or whatever that situation is but the solar panels are not absolutely necessary for you to be able to build a garage either correct no they're not necessary no okay I'm just I'm just trying to um get inside of your head if I could because it's for me I'm I'm I'm just trying to figure it out yeah and and building it up there means that I can do a $25,000 garage versus 60 to 70,000 up here if I try D because I'm G to have to take down all kinds of trees and stone and it's going to be something else I think uh beyond the more excavation you do and the more you're going to have to pave the worse that water problem will be too so if we think about a watershed issue the more payment he's putting down worse that's going to be but I don't know how to answer the Watershed problem uh without an engineer doing right to have the city engineer advising us yeah but if there was no solar and the garage met the required setbacks there wouldn't be all that extra concrete it was just that was what I was thinking also so the only way it would have to go way to the back is if to have solar back there yeah he said there was no solar back there if you put it way back there you said you could have solar but it would just be the cost would be oh I wouldn't do I wouldn't do solar back there okay yeah I wouldn't recommend anyone solar back there because there's just no solar resource I'd like more information from the engineer maybe an actual survey that would yeah yeah and and again it it's making variances right now for this so somebody else in the city there many people go there's trees there so we we should be able to to put solar someplace else or gr someplace else you know just because a tree is there um um I I understand what you're trying to do I there's not enough information here for me to to take a look at it especially if you're going to bring the garage back further than 10 but I'd like to have more information that there is on this yeah especially for the drainage part of it looks like there's two properties to the north of you is that correct or is that one property like a gravel alley even Mark just to the north yeah 240 and is there another one just up further that's a few of them maybe is that all one property it's all one yeah Mark and Jess own the whole is it multiple residents I really haven't been up there just one res there just one res there's multiple things around that and ping that garage forward that's not going to obstruct with the view coming in and off the road at all it's pull 10 foot or you know within the 10 ft and it's 10 ft instead of the 25 that is city code sure if I may um hi hi again uh one thing we 100% are making our condition of the approval for the variance um uh with regards to the the site plan and getting that accurate survey as a condition of the building permit if it did not come in and did not meet the the variance that you approved tonight we would not issue that he would be back before the board with a different kind of request so just just to be clear like he he would have to meet whatever you guys are comfortable with if it's 10 feet then it would be have to be 10 feet when it comes in so if we were to change the 10 to 16 or 15 or whatever and it ended up he needed instead of the 15 or 16 we gave if he needed 14 he'd be back here again next month that is correct yeah so if you were to just build the garage and you were not thinking and solar had nothing to do with it would you be able to build that garage within the requirements that are there well I would actually I would still ask for a variance even if I wasn't going to do solar because these like I said the family room is downstairs and if I put the garage back there it's going to completely block all those windows that are down there as well okay and I'd just be looking at the garage wall right it's really a a strange site it's all if you look at it it's all most of it's up all uphill um that's why that location is just going to mean the the least amount of Excavating I did speak with Mark and Jess as well as Jack who lives across the street as well and uh I spoke with Jack just this morning and they all are good with this but I I do I do like what you were talking about as far as the the engineer I I'm not familiar with anything as far as a water shed or anything like that but uh I would definitely want whatever this short driveway would be to have the correct culs or what have you so that water could flow there as same as what's already there I guess but where's the entrance to the fromont part of the house is it where the driveway is the yeah it's right right kind of in the center so you're taking away that whole driveway and putting a driveway over the other side you're not even going to basically have access to the front front door of the house they'll there'll be a right around the garage there there'll be a little there's already a concrete walkway that would go or that I would put in that would go to the door sidewalk if you will from the garage door to the [Music] you discussion up front here right now as I look at it we've got a very for a setback to what it currently is on the books we know we're rewriting all of our code but this is what he's trying to do now with our existing code on top of that it sounds like a side issue is that the city may have an issue with the ditch that's up there in the drainage as it sits and it's that issue exists currently today without the change in the variance or the new garage there won't be a second driveway going and it would remain as the same single driveway but it would be moved and the Culvert would continue to be whatever is recommended by the city engineer to continue to be there yeah we were just uh contractors said we're just removing all the concrete from there and then just receding over over where the concrete was put dirt and then grass over that so the culverts would remain any other discussion um I just have one technical issue that was submitted by stantech and it's on the same page as the findings of fact for denial of the variance at the bottom it talks about the deadline for Council action says the variance application was received on June 12 2024 the applicant has been notified that the city needs more time to process the application and has extended the deadline for final action and additional 60 days to September 11 2024 as Allowed by Minnesota statute 15.99 I believe that the extension would have put it out until October 11th not September 11th is that correct uh William if it was originally I mean I can see on the petition that it was originally submitted September 11th of 23 and then it was resubmitted on June 12th of 24 and yeah that's what the new application deadline ended September 11 that would only be 90 days instead of 120 I just want to be clear what it is that we're looking at because if that September 11 date was correct then all of this would be moot because if the pnz or the council did not address it he would automatically receive his variance and so I want to for the record make sure that the October 11th date is what is stated in this paperwork as opposed to September 11th and that we're all agreed that that is the correct date for the deadline to end yes I'm looking into it right now I'm just got to put in 60 right here and I'll calculate a date um [Music] so that I am coming up with Thursday October 10th our apologies on that mistake chair B the other question I have is if this was submitted on June 12th uh we're now looking at September 12th how come we didn't have that before now to take a look at this um I was not involved in this review request I apologize I can't answer that question I believe uh anytime it's usually held back is because they we're working on getting more information that's necessary to actually have something that's presentable to this this board and and make sure you have at least enough information of what the request is um uh before we we bring something forward or because it was deemed incomplete at the time of a submitt um we wouldn't bring it an incomplete application to you to to to to have to review because you would have any information you need to be able to make a decision I believe if the application was incomplete the clock would not start would it absolutely yeah and so if the application were incomplete would not have started on June 12th that's correct yeah um it sounds like the reason notice was just the city needed more time to process the application I I can't speak to this I apologize maybe Renee or um Jason might know some background I apologize yeah three months is long time for this I is there was we're waiting on getting all the proper stuff St need the proper documentation as you said before so that was the delay with it was work trying to work with and make sure we got they got everything that they needed to be able to present excuse me this is this this happens from time to time it's pretty common that sometimes we're just not having everything ready at the time we needed so uh it's not like the staff is holding it back on purpose or the applicant is um trying to push something through her that's not ready so no I certainly wasn't intending to accuse anybody of anything just yeah yeah no I get you I get you June 12th we had an application submitted that may have been incomplete or partially complete or but we don't know which what date it was fully received by the city and a complete application about here um I mean to St he is paid by the City so it's really when the city when we get everything is when it's complete whether stantech we're slow getting it to stantech that's on us yeah so it's so really isn't I look at it it's they submit it and accepted it and we accepted it and we have so many days to reply and it's on us if we don't have our stuff together absolutely it's on us me the city yeah yeah this is this is a Mis step 90 days is a long time for us to be seen this for the first time so are we clear that it actually runs out in October then that's October 10th is the date that we were given as opposed to September 11th okay so yes and and the the applicant has been properly notified of the additional 60 days so you guys are still in compliance and October 10th would be the date you're shooting for um action by the city commission there may have to be a so we have two choices one is we can take action and recommend something to council or we would have to set up a special Council would have to call and set up a special meeting or we would yeah in order to take action to make it by the time frame required because counc only has one meeting right now and that what is our next beating date 10 October 10th yeah so yes a little bit I guess my question would be when you look at the rules as we have them for granting a variance I mean I I guess what I'm hearing here is I the variance is because you want to put solar on a structure I mean that's really what it comes down to that's the whole thing so does that I mean my thing is i' like just say build it put solar on it because I love solar and I think it'd be great you should be able to do what you want to do but the fact is that if the to have a variance by the rules I don't know if I need a variance because I want to put solar panels on something if that f we are held to a set of rules we can't we can't break the set of rules for graned variances a variance is a request to bend or break the rules but we have a set of rules that is unbendable that we have to comply to to um to Grant a variance and what Scott has stated is fact that according to the state statute I don't believe that we have the ability to Grant this variance at this time yeah what you're looking for is a hardship bling and Zoning Commissioners um that is you know not financially related so so that is correct then what we you would have to find that you find that there is a hardship with this property um we believe staff does believe that there is a hardship that there is really no feasible locations you know the the south side of the lot with the terrain is is really not a feasible location because you would have a weird garage there plus the the trees and and the tuing it further back than the property with the amount of elevation change and the amount of tree canopy back there U would take out a lot of trees uh and and negate the um the benefits that you know you're getting from solar so ultimately staff isn't recommending approval u based on the hardship that um is the site configuration and and current conditions but um certainly you're you're again welcome to to go with the different uh binding um just need to be able to note like that there isn't a hardship present in this case I'm just reading did you say there is or is not there is there is that there is a hardship and so let's solar panels out of the equation still would work look at the garage yeah yes because based on what I'm seeing and what he has here is the property does not there's issues with the property to allow the garage to happen as it is I mean if if you really look at the rules right it it is a hardship based on the property then yeah then that's because the topography being hilly right then that would make sense to but could could the garage be moved if because yes take the solar panels out and could the a hard property could the garage be moved back yeah with additional excavation answer is yes so I think there's there's two things we look at yes it's a hard property it it is a hard ship based on the the Topography of of that property but could it be done yeah that's I guess that's where you have the kind of gray area almost anything can be done it's just a matter of when does it get you know the idea become ludicrous to actually do it and right you know going around the house into a hill and back in the woods I mean could you do it I'm guessing you could right which is really the whole idea of a variance you know yeah I think if if if we the house originally had a garage yeah correct and it's a it was a tuck under I'm assuming yeah there was yeah tuck under at the end of that driveway that's on that so the thought when we removed the garage was the plan then to hopefully build a garage when I when I bought the property my contractor reached out to the city came to the city and spoke with sunny or Renee and then they said all we need to do to to be able to put the garage there and and then we ended up having to get the land surveyed again and because the understanding was when we went to convert that space under that he had already spoken to the city and they said yep we can do the garage um we we said I wasn't going to buy the property if we couldn't turn that tuck under garage and build that because there was no way we were going to spend the 70 to 100,000 to put the garage further back it's just and yes and having a garage right next to it you're within what five six feet from the house to the garage obviously it pies out a little bit it looks like yeah but like you said it's about the same depth as the house so a block obstruct those windows and on that side correct yeah I guess just comes down to individually whether we consider that if we consider that a hardship for the property then it would make sense meet the Vari to do the variance whether we go you 10 12 14 whatever I mean that probably still needs to be determined but granting the variance could happen you I know you made the garage and office okay can you take the office out of there and still use a garage and and uh put your office someplace else well yeah I guess I could but I just spent 30,000 to convert it into living space or business space we have to I mean part of part of that move was also to make the home more efficient but honestly that's not what we're here for to come up with those different things I think we just have to we have to make a recommendation or or we push it back so at this point don't decision what do we have one way or the other we have to tonight propose something one way or the other to council to either do a special meeting or get more information or a proposal a recommendation because what we do is we're a body that creates a recommendation that does go to council for them to approve or deny so they can take what we recommend and approve or deny what we have done as well so with that said well and if I could say something here if October 10th is our next pnz meeting I don't even know how it would be possible to continue this so that we could get the information from the city planner and then have the city council have time to even call an emergency meeting so could put a condition on there about information that has to be provided before approval right mean we can change the condition so that um we can choose how close it can be to the street but we could also add a condition that an engineer be address the Watershed issue right determine if there is one and address it with this particular variance because we know no matter what we do here that we do need to send something back to council that the city and Council somebody needs to take a look at that on top of Commissioners if I may I I would avoid tying um things that are within the right of way to this development request on private property although I I hear what you're saying we need to convey this information to the the commission and we certainly will make sure to do that in uh either the resolution probably outside the resolution but in a memo that goes to the the council so but uh the the stuff that's happening in the public right away should be separate and and not considered as a a rationale for any decision you make on this request tonight and I'm going to say this I don't think we even consider so I mean that that's something that the homeowner wants we have to look at the garage whether it's got solar on it yeah yeah I think that's whatever play part it's just whether we're here to approve the variance for the garage so is there a way then for us to let's say do a approve it with with conditions conditions we can add conditions to you can add conditions yes yeah because that then would take care of well does that extend the timeline no no you can't make a condition to extend the timeline so I mean we should have had that soon us the fact that it took us90 days to receive this has handcuffed us to a great degree right now as drafted from Stant they have one condition that the applicant if we were going to do the approval as they've drafted here page four of there's six pages the applicant will submit an accurate site plan before a building permit is issued showing the location of the garage at no closer than 10 ft to the front right of way line to 2 Avenue Northeast and no closer than 6 ft to the North side Lot line so not so far tonight we've talked about does that 10t get adjusted one way or the other do you leave it at 10 but as drafted by stantech it did say 10 so we could that is condition one there are no other conditions currently drafted by stanch but we do have the commission could draft a second finding in fact to insert there should we want to a second condition you mean yeah I mean I would like to have the setback much more than 10 ft I'm I'm not happy with that 10 ft at all and I would like to have it if we're just looking at the garage and that being the situation that we are you know I I know it might block your window but you know I mean that's i' like to have it it push back and and I'd like to have as close to 25 as we can to keep everything the same as what our code is right now didn't we also just kind of say that putting the garage right next to the side of the house doesn't really make sense I mean it's going to block a little bit of the view but but again you're still going to be at the six feet I don't know how much of that garage is where it's going to be when you move it back I'd like to have another drawing where it was set back at 25 ft to take a look and see what it looks like you know the 10 ft I'm not happy with the 10 ft at all I mean if I'm looking at that um drawing on stex 25 ft takes the rod basically to the edge of the house pretty much which is taking out a whole side of a house in terms of windows so we have to make a decision if the contractor said to go for 10 but you think that it might be able to be done in 16 I mean is 13 or 14 probably doable I I would have to double check from the corner from the corner of the house and see because we just had it surveyed in in January and so when he told me the 10 ft he was gone I had done some preliminary measurements we already shortened the garage by 4 feet we did want to do a 24x 24 garage we shortened it by 4T um in order to try and and and stay as far away from the road as we could to still not cover up Windows um okay so the original request though and the one that stanch did look at was 10 feet right it sounds like maybe there might be some wiggle room in there you got the garage at an angle the way it's here too if you took the garage and squared it out you'd still have some some space that there is between the windows instead of being at the same angle it a little bit sounds like we just have to vot on whether to improve or deny so do I have from someone a motion continue approve or deny and of course you can um change any conditions if you're recommending approval yeah I guess with the with the setback we're just not that's that's the hangup right now I prefer the longer the larger setback but I know requested originally was 10 having some random maybe we can push it back makes me a little more concerned I don't want to have us continually would be whatever you're going to get is what you're going to use yeah I'm not comfortable voting on random at all yeah I think it has to be stated it has to be a stated number yeah well if we deny it then you can come back and ask for uh a variance again that would have all the proper information that would be there to be able to vote on and not have a delay of what there is for the 90 days that we've [Music] missed yeah that really hurt this process did I'm I'm concerned that it's it was turned in then though and the delay is not necessarily due to our resident delay is believe that it is Mr Sorenson's responsibility at all and to have them have to come back and wait for a survey and have to reapply because really it's we got it in June and we didn't should be default yeah in the city learns yeah you know it's it's not his fault that we got it as late as we did can't be operating this way as a city and having that delay that there is with not having come us because when it gets turned into the city is really when it's clock should be stared ticking if we've got an application that's complete at that point that's right clock ticks now if it takes us a while to get it to stch and get things communicated or get documents sent to them that's on the city that is not on that's right and I you know it it shouldn't be on the homeowner we had it earlier than we could say we can't do this as is we have time to change it make it work but came in in September we need to figure it out so there is a hardship there so we almost this is a lessons learn as I'm concerned vote the way that it is I think yes so we've got an option one option is if we're looking at our packets when we're looking at the variant standards after that page there is a page that does have a recommendation from Stant and I can read that one there is also they had findings in fact should we choose to deny but the recommendation that they had on page four of six of the packet that was posted I recommend that the Planning and Zoning commission recommend to the city council approval of the variance request for a 10 feet front setback for a new garage for gett senson at 2202 Avenue Northeast as submitted and described in this report with the following conditions and findings a fact so this is what we had gotten from Phil and there was one condition of approval of variance the applicant will submit an accurate site plan before a building permit is issued showing the location of the garage as no closer than 10 ft to the front right of way line to 2 Avenue Northeast and no closer than 6 feet to the North side Lot line then they did have seven findings of fact for approval of variance the findings of fact act for approval of variant was one Garrett senson owns the property at 222nd Avenue Northeast legally described on the certificate of survey from wsse Massie dated 15224 two the applicant wishes to build a new garage on the property 10 ft from the front lot line with roof mounted solar panels three required setbacks for a new garage in the Oronoco zoning code are 25 ft to the front lot line and 6 feet to the the side Lot line for the only practical location for a garage on that site that will have reasonable solar access is on the north side of the property within 10 ft of the front lot line requesting a variance five solar access on the site has been analyzed by the applicant using accepted industry equipment showing significantly compromised solar access if the garage were placed in a location meeting the required setback with reasonable solar performance at the proposed location six encouraging solar energy is in the public interest and a reasonable factor to consider in a variance request seven the variance request meets the criteria for approving a variance in section 15141 of the oroko zoning code so that is what we had gotten as a draft recommendation we could use from stanch should we want to if anybody were to want to propose that well and I would like to interject something at this point in number four and in number five in the inclusion of their findings of fact it is that it is reasonable for solar access that is not that is that should not be part of this consideration because solar access is not something that's necessary to be able to build a garage that is usable and that a homeowner would have a right to use their property in a way that they desire making solar access part of the reasonable use of a property is not accent but we had already decided that's not really what we're talking about that's what's in that's what the finding says though the only practical location for garage on the site so then from that point that will have re will so are you saying to strike that part of number four but so it would no I'm saying that these are the findings fact that were given to us and I'm taking them literally here commission if I may um the the one thing I'll add to that and and what I believe was philed intent is that you do by right allow solar it's it doesn't need to go through any special use it doesn't have any standards allowed other than like roof mount Heights and and and whatnot clearance from sides but by by right he is permitted to have solar but there is a limitation we didn't say no on that no you're absolutely but that not be the the reason that you have the variance is because he wants to put solar on the top of his roof okay you know I think we're looking at what the building is and and again the amount that there is and so it's it's skewed to to the solar part of it versus the building of the garage we have look at it so if we look at for is the photography is this the only practical location for a garage on the site forget about the solar that is that the only You' got other options it is a narrow lot yeah but but you could still move it back I'm just saying if if if you wanted you could yeah I think there's a difference between is it physically possible yeah or is it does it make sense at all yeah I mean there's got to be financial hardship too yeah you know so when you look at the topographic characteristics of the site is that really the best most feasible location yeah it sounds like from what they had looked at that yes it is it is so so I think that's what we're the only practical location for garage on the site is on the north side of the property within 10t of the front lot line requiring a variance so that is what we're going to be voting on I guess so finding four would be the only practical location for garage on the site and then you would strike that will have a reasonable solar access but then continue it is on the north side of the property within 10 ft of the front lot line requiring a variance right and then you would strike number five and number six when we're talking solar yeah y I would take everything out about the solar that doesn't really have anything to do with it so we would still as drafted conditions of approval would still be the same for number one findings of fact one two and three would remain exactly as drafted by Phil yep number four you would revise and you would strike that will have reasonable solar access but keep the rest of it so for would read the only practical location or a garage on the site is on the north side of the property within 10 ft of the front lot line requiring a variance yes you would strike number five you would strike number six and then number seven would be renumbered as a number five yes is that what I'm hearing that is what I would do yes is there a condition require um regarding the 10 foot setback that is being that in there yeah because if I'd like to push it back further because otherwise we're opening it up as a president that there is till we get everything set i'm concern though also that we're going off we have no concrete survey off that and then yeah we haven't seen what what it is elevation either so we have think that kind of comes back to us not having time through if we had time and we did our part the way that it should have been done we could say uh we need more we need to discuss we need to change it because we Dr ball I think we got to go one way another we do yeah we've had it since June I think it's our responsibility I say you know we did we did hear from the homeowner that they could go 16 ft recomendation you know I I waiting for discussion to be over I would put conditions if it's if it's recommended for approval what is the condition you would put Jim pardon what is the condition you would put the the condition that that I would put is that it the setback is further than 10 ft that it's you know we heard the homeowner say at least you know they could get it to 16 feet um possibly possibly that's my concern is the possibly there right well but I think we put it as a condition and if the condition can't be met it can't happen there's nothing in here on the driveway either okay and so that's not a part of it the driveway order to put a second driveway in you'd have to come back to us we've already we've already had a variance for somebody who needed a second driveway so we know there's only going to be one driveway just but I would like to have that in here too that that that would have been removed from this so I'd like to hear from the construction worker in the group John is that 16 foot only based off of the solar yet though or could it be 25 with or could it be slightly more 25 sounds like that's going to push it back too far into the house to obstruct Vision it be taking solar out can it be pushed back somewhere in between there can we push it back to 18 we push it back to 20 I don't we don't know that and I don't know that you do at the moment either you know so is there a number that were comfortable with I know that's the million dooll question right now knowing that the clock is ticking on us and it's on the city to we don't really have enough information but we have to make a decision tonight because we've had it yeah yeah I think we you know everybody's got to V how they see it but I mean we don't have time to make changes so if I may you know the the applicant the the new information came forward tonight about the 16 beat but the applicant did come back to the podium and attest that their request that they're making is for that 10 feet so uh that could maybe help you guys just decide is that that's what they're asking and you get to decide whether you feel that that's worthy or you want to deny that I think we've had the request for 10 feet since June and it wasn't until suddenly September 12th here that we finally hear a different number and uh everything that we've done up until this point has been looked at as if it's 10 feet and we've not said one yeah word differently to our applicant since that time to our resident of the city yeah if we would have done our part correctly I would feel different about it but because we did not if whenever this discussion is done be ready to make a motion right I don't necessarily agree to recommend it I don't as it is in the amount of information but this is not the homeowners all yeah no yep you know that's that's my feeling but I I think if if there is a recommendation then we we we have to put some done with discussion yeah anybody have anything else be here all night and I will make a recommen recommendation to can I ask one quick question here to will will could we do a condition that if upon final survey uh 10 feet can't or if we do a x feet cannot be achieved that we are comfortable with whatever is that is there a way to draft that kind of condition um so you're saying you would like to say okay you're okay with 10 feet but if you can get away with 16 we prefer that I I I I can't think of a way that you would structure that because if you're Grant You' be reducing the variance to a set low amount and that would be permissible up up to that point so um yeah you would really need to just set with the step back you're you're uh comfortable with or go with what the applicant is requesting okay that that was what I was thinking I just thought might as well try since we got you on the line here to just throw you on the spot and drive the bus right away I like these yeah yeah you guys are doing a great job with sticking within the confines too of the uh the board of adjustment duties so I appreciate that all right Scott you were talking sorry I if we're done having conversation I would be know we got more yeah I mean I'd like to put it in a condition to have a minimum of 16 ft that there is for a set I'd like to have it at at 20 you know to be closer but at a minimum of 16 well I think you have to let Scott put his I hav made it never got it out yet we're still in the discussion we still in discussion so somebody else could still do it so no number proposed yet right so let's say that that's how it goes and we let's say we change it to 16 or 13 or whatever what has to happen after that to make that the way that it needs to be is there enough but they can't come back because we don't have enough time for that yeah our Runway is gone because of our own fault it's the city on the city is the number I would change the number but we can't because we dropped the ball right so it's all or nothing yeah well we can still put the the condition in absolutely we could put the condition in there um but it we couldn't put the condition in there upon such and such and such survey it would because we don't have that kind of time we're just going to have to pick the number we just we're going to have to pick the number and go with it I myself looking at since we've had this since June and until tonight we haven't heard and they haven't heard anything different when comfortable with pen it's not I'm not happy with it no but I'm comfortable with it that's but I think at this point it's really on us as the city and we need to look at what's happening in our own process and that's besides the fact here that's not anything to do with what the applicant or resident in town did that's on the city they followed our process so if if I'm understanding that what you're referring to at this point is leaving this without the condition other than what it states here the 10- foot setback as because of the fact that it took 90 days to get this application from the office to the planning and zoning and all the conversations it sounds like that have happened and offline yeah that I've not been part of to well and and I will make a statement at this moment that had it not been for the 90day delay I would vote know for the granting of this variance but because on our end we literally burned 90 days right yeah that I feel that that that gives us very little choice at this point unfortunately because I don't like a 10- foot setback for the garage period I don't like the precedent it's going to set for the city the one thing that that we will have uh maneuverability in and the ability to to distinguish this particular situation from others is when we receive the paperwork in a timely manner nobody will be able to say to us that we are showing bias to one resident of the city and that we are not granting the same thing to another person because hopefully we're going to be getting things in a more timely manner and questions like this could be figured out prior yes so I this is this does not make me happy at all I I would put the condition in I would make a recommendation with the 16 foot setback condition I would agree with that based on what we heard I just asked that I'm not sure how it works if we say that's the new condition and that's not how it was in in the paperwork do we have time to do whatever needs to be done to make that official but I think I just that just becomes part of your recommendation to the city councils sir a motion to approve with this condition of a 16 foot setback and that would be the motion we would be voting on that would be the recommendation that's going to the city council and then they would be responsible for making the final decision yeah I just I I mean that's what I want to do or even less than that but the fact that we're throwing this change in because we dropped the ball and now we're changing his numbers I I mean I I but I love the 16 yeah we know we think it's the 11th hour here okay let's let's so so make I make a recommendation that we approve it as is yeah minus the changes in the number four five and six but otherwise are you off we will make the motion to approve the variance with the adjustments in the findings the findings of fact so what I have right now to make sure I've got this correct we have a motion to send this to council to approve the variance with the condition of approval of variance as drafted using the 10 foot yes as it is as it is and then the findings of fact number one two and three as drafted for approval number four would read the only practical location for a garage on the site is on the north side of the property within 10 feet of the front lot line requiring a variance strike number five strike number six and then the final one that was number seven becomes renumbered as five yes and so that would be your motion to send to council is there a second okay everybody fighting over this one go ahead who was first i' second that thank you okay so we have a first and a second any last discussion on this all in favor of approval to send this to council for approval I I I I anyone oppose n okay so it does get approved this does go to council Council meets official on next Tuesday and at that point they will approve or deny what we've sent them and then we'll know based on that if you just go to the city and fill up get what you need to get at there one way or the other all right thank you we are going to take a three minute break so I can go grab my water here and then we will start the next public heing but if anybody's here for that one that also gives you the ability to scoot should you not want to hang out for the next our agenda for the evening so it is now 7:51 let's take three four minutes here yes somebody [Music] somebody all right [Music] [Music] and before we start our next public hearing we will have again we've got slips at the podium so if anybody wants to speak for or against the next application that's on our public hearing list please feel free to fill that one of the slips out and it will include just our date name of the speaker address and our subject they're in the podium we will ask you as actually you're the applicant well no okay thank you it's interesting when I bought the acreage my uh realtor the five acres my realtor contacted me after I bought the place and informed me that my neighbor's shed was over onto my property my Goodman but we ended up having to do the resurvey and he bought that little spot of yeah remember yeah I remember that so I've run into a few things since moving here in appreciate you appreciate your work today and if we can build it at 14 we will but you know um yes we're happy to see you but we'd be happy to not have to see you again no you know at the end of the day we want to make the town work and do what we can and me too that's the whole not not your fault that this thing was delayed for 90 90 days that's all us I'm glad that Mike Mike Goodman who was the I don't know how his shed ended up getting built onto my property he didn't know about it either uh at the time but uh I had met him about 10 or 11 years ago and then I went up there and it ended up being Mike and it was just a great interaction so we were together we went in on the survey so that we could get it done right fig yeah I remember that oh really that was that one worked great it was that was simple there it is yeah now as far as the this this drainage piece that that he speaking we'll figure that's not necessarily A pnz but we can send that one back to F in the city to take a look at so because if there's something there I want that yeah oh no obvious don't blame me at all that is an issue so that's something that will forward back it's not necessarily anything we do through our pnz but it's absolutely something I'm concern to bring up to the [Music] city hang around all right folks we've had our couple minutes now and I've gotten to have my water so I thank you all for that at this point we have another public hearing posted for 640 p.m. or shortly thereafter so that just means we cannot start before 6:40 and at this point it is 7:55 so I will open the public hearing for the easement and drainage vacate at 13 1976 Riverwood Court Southwest and with that I will say also that this is actually my neighbor and I live in this culdesac so I'm certainly more than happy to run the public hearing but if you all would prefer I can turn this running of this one over to our vice chair as well so it's no difference to me anybody has concerns one way or the other I'm completely fine with you being able to remain you're nonbi you thank you absolutely I try to be I'm good with you with that if everybody's comfortable with that or if anybody no we're fine okay we're gonna move on 7:55 were officially open so at this time we are open for public comments and our public hearing if there is anyone who would like to speak for or against the application for the easement and draining vacate 1376 Riverwood Court Southwest I do have to say this three times so I've said it once if there's anyone that would like to speak for or against the application please speak up if there is anyone that would like to speak for or against the application please speak up and with that may I ask a question PD did you want to speak um yeah sorry that was you guys have questions on it that's where I Pi my place so yes I this is where you get to present your plan and if you would just state your name and address 6 Riverwood Court Southwest um asking for your recommendation for a pickle ball court and a vacated drainage and utility easement um I had Mr Palin come out and visit my site just to understand the the function of the easement and and my placement of the court because because of the grade in my backyard so would be on the backend lot line and then my grade dips down then flattens out again um the court location up close to our house would would cause more drainage issues or drainage issues where where it sits now it wouldn't adversely affect any of my neighbors Mr Palin agreed that the drainage of the utility easement was not uh ofen question or concern um so we came up with vacating 20 ft of the 30 ft to allow my placement of the court and that covers most of it un there's any questions thank you we have other questions we'll ask you after we close the public hearing thank you last round if anyone would like to speak for or against the application and with that I will close the public hearing at 7:58 any discussion staff report on this the first I can certainly go through that for you planning zoning Commissioners can you hear me better now um yeah okay yeah my mic wasn't actually working so I was wearing a headset for the whole first half of the meeting for no reason whatsoever so I apologize for the audio issues um Todd weting he's the owner of 1376 Riverwood Court uh near the western edge of the city has requested a uh drainage and utility easement vacation to be able to construct a 35x 60t sport court within the portion of the rear yard that is partially encumbered with a 30ft wide drainage and utility easement just a little bit of background for you um of course your drainage and utility easements are routinely required around all your residential losss usually they're around 5 feet on the side yard 10 feet wide or more in the front and rear yards uh for whatever reason and I can't answer the uh history on this one but the river bend States plat provided a 30 foot wide rear yard easement um however what I can say is that um as applicant noted I did meet with city engineer Joe Palin they took a on-site visit to look at this request and weigh an on a copy of a a memo was included in your packet from uh city engineer whan and which he details the findings of the site visit excuse me his recommendation and the conditions one second here uh planning staff have reviewed the memo the recommendation the condition and with that uh all end by saying that based on the planings contained in the planning memo we recommend your recommendation in support of the applicants request of the city council for vacation the North 20 ft of the 30 ft wide your engine utility eement on the property at 1376 Riverwood Court uh also known and legally described as lot two block One River Benda states with uh the following conditions and findings the fact um for conditions on this one for the easement vacation uh it we would ensure that the sport court is to be constructed at least 10 ft off the property un line from the rear and 5 ft off the side property line so it's not to encroaching the remaining draining utility easements surrounding the lot uh if there are any above ground permanent structures that are proposed in conjunction with the sport court like a basketball hoop or light PS those structures are to be located outside the rear inside yard seac requirements including Ora soning code um so you can have them just not in any easement that would be remaining and that that easement vacations will be recorded allstead County on the applicant's property uh happy to answer any questions you have um the findings of fact are outlined in the SC memo that you received thank you thing that really stuck out for me in this is that this easement is 30 feet wide and that the city routinely requires drainage and utility easements of five feet on sidey yards and 10 feet on backyards and so that answers pretty much all the questions that I would have yeah yeah and who knows at the time of the plotting there might have been some drainage concerned that they were trying to overcompensate for I just like I said I don't have the historical knowledge on it but what I can say is that your our city engineer has has taken a look at it and is comfortable with this release I make a motion to approve the variant second any discussion all in favor I any opposed I I read the motion I second I first second motion passes so this will go to city council for approval our recommendation and they meet next week on Tuesday thank you so that is our final public hearing for tonight we do next have under new business Kirk Barts is next on the agenda and you want to go ahead and take the FL thank you for working me in um part of the reason I'm here is to answer the questions that you've gone through and discuss trying to be proactive with this and knowing what I can do I'm looking at um I'm my name is Kirk bars I am my dad owned property on the west side of T 12:15 West Center Street um was the old Ken over that way um I'm looking at splitting the property the front five acres five or six give or take I've Got A current survey of the property and I'm looking at there we've got a pin placement with that survey and I'm looking at splitting off from certain pin to the center line of First Street down there um to just so you could have the access off of First Street to both pieces of property and that would be the split would be [Music] improved my my biggest concern there is with the current survey that I've got for the property I went back to the surveyor looking at where we would like to make that Division and he doesn't have he doesn't have anywhere that shows where that Center Line of First Street is which I can do so I I I kind of back to the beginning I submitted this submitted this paperwork last week and I knew it wasn't going to be done I knew getting it to the planning and zoning committee wasn't going to happen in time to get approved tonight but it's in the process and so I'm just trying to be proactive and getting any answers that I may need to make sure that it's we don't end up in a situation so if I back up so you own land at 12:15 west5 West Street and you submitted an application the last week in September here to split to the city to the city and turned everything in yes okay no I did that I did so at this point it'll go through stantech and they're going to review to see if we even have to depending on what your request is we may or may not have to have a public hearing next month it's going to depend on their review of what your request is okay so it sounds like with the parcel you have you're just looking to do with paperwork turned in a split at yeah it's you it's large enough with the setbacks and everything that I can see I don't see why it would not need a split approval you know it's roughly 38 acres okay ask okay and I'm looking at splitting like the front s which there's access from the road off of Center Street for that that parcel but then I'm also just to be for future use I figured that Center that First Street Center Line and having access to both of those properties from that street for future would make sense so that's why I kind of chose to split it there and it's if you're basic when I submitted to the city this is my current plot it's basically going to be a line from this point here on an angle to the center line of First Street and that's what's now I I did one question I have is my I completed the application to the best of my ability with the current plot map and and it says but it you know they want all the actual numbers and everything as far as what that property split would be so I went back to the surveyor to try and get that but like I say he could have not I guess if I don't if I don't get approval for the split I'm looking at another couple thousand to get it surveyed to get it to get that decided and so I'd like I mean I would like to get the approval for the split before I spend more money to that makes sense do that yeah so so at this point thank you for letting us know that you've turned in an application um we'll look forward to finding out what we get back from our zoning support which is our company that we work with that will review applications between our employees at the city when you turn in the application they will lean on them if they need other expertise to figure that out to determine is it something you fill on the paperwork and they can just sign off or if it's something that needs to necessarily come back to us because you've already turned it in should it need a public hearing then you would be on our next months and you're saying it may not just because it meets our Zing Cod and and I I like this way the approach on coming to us and and explaining what you're going to do so that's a heads up which is what we like what it is my dad passed away in 21 and so I've been the last couple years been trying to clean the property up and I have personal representative of the property and we're looking at probably moving on eventually but I'm just I know my dad when he was alive he had talked about maybe splitting roughly this area done too but I started with trying to get a current plant map and surveyed and everything so I could so when I do get to the point of trying to sell a property I've got current information when everything potential buyers so thanks for coming it's good to see how things work looking forward to next any other questions or anything you can answer for me or anything I need to do besides just wait for that we're right with you waiting so we will all find out together whether we see you next month for a public hearing or whether we just get you at the end of our meeting where they tell us what zoning applications and questions have come through for the month as just part of the standard report from the city because it may not require some things do some things don't so everything in the city starts with hey I have an idea and depending on what it is you may go to this you may go to the par it's all been a learning C curve for me I kind of learn all of us appreciate your time and thank you for allowing me to no we appreciate the thank you thank you we watch for the app all right thank you all right that is a on new business moving on on to our B Linda King presentation thank you for your patience and waiting and uh yeah absolutely uh commissioner my commissioner my name is Craig Britton I'm a civil engineer with woodf and I'm here representing l king and the developers on this proposed development um here so we did include a uh a concept map I don't know if this was sent out if not if you're okay with it I can excellent so we would have gotten it in our packet and it would have been posted on the packet that's on the city website excellent okay I have extras if anybody wants one of yeah so what this would consist of is a um Highway commercial development So currently um and it's located on Minnesota Avenue on the south end just north of 100 Street and it would um it would include both properties and um so the or the reason that I'm here tonight is to uh introduce the project to you get some feedback um no application has been submitted yet we have met with staff we met with the Eda uh to review the concept and um and again that's why I'm here tonight and with the developers here to uh present this to you so uh the the west side of Minnesota Avenue uh so that's where say the grocery store and gas station is shown uh that it's um and I should back up that this property is currently not within the city limits so the city limits borders correct yep y so the city limits is just on the North End of the property uh so it involves the two properties one on the west side of Minnesota Avenue and the land land use designation for that uh area is Highway commercial um and the uh land use um designation on the east side includes on the lower third excuse me the southern third uh is pedestrian oriented commercial and then the uh Northern 2third of it is multif family residential so the um uh the application would include um not only the annexation but also a land use Amendment uh to include all of this property as Highway commercial um and that would be very consistent with the existing land use plan um all along Minnesota Avenue uh the majority of the properties um along Minnesota Avenue all the way up to Third Street um includ INE either Highway commercial um historic business downtown um and so it would be consistent with that entire segment of Minnesota Avenue um but what's being proposed is um a number of different uses within this development um and those are all listed in the code but um some of the um some of the users that they've been talking to include uh say a dental office a chiropractic office uh some office uses um Gas and Grocery and Bank you know things that financial institutions things that uh uh the community could um uh could use and benefit from um we do have on the um I mentioned that um that multifam residential designation for the land use plant that includes about 36 Acres of that parcel on the east side um however uh close to 9 Acres of that is is really undevelopable we have the Ravine that runs through the center of that property on the North side um and then we have designated some areas for storm water treatment as well because that will be a requirement of the development um so that would remove like I said close to nine acres um and uh we talk to staff and and throwing out some ideas of uh potentially putting that into um some sort of conservation easement so that would be um um that would be um that wouldn't be able to be developed would remain as wooded area and um in that so um so that would leave about 27 acres for development on that on that east side of Minnesota Avenue [Music] um um so I again just wanted to uhh present the uh the concept here for you tonight and gather any feedback that that you may have so uh when we when we put the full development um application together that we incorporate some of the input the only com thanks for coming yeah yeah the only comment that I would have that I'm looking at down the road too is is um the amount of traffic that's going to be coming into that area um down Minnesota Avenue off of a 100 and and looking at that I think it might be uh advantageous to look for maybe a roundabout that's there to make it more accessible to do it because the amount of traffic that you have right now and that' just be adding that much more traffic there is to that area um and I know where you have the roads coming off uh just to maybe look at at having you know rightand turn Lanes off of that to be able to get that traffic off to the side going whichever direction that they're going you know because that's that's going to be a major problem that we have and you know inviting more industry or commercial in this area you want to be able to have that access for for that so that's already been discussed but okay you're engineer and we AG to it and basically everything that he asked for okay we agreed to okay you know that was just one of the things as we do this let's do it the right way and and plan in advance instead of after the fact yep and so um like Linda mentioned the the turn Lanes had been discussed so that would be incorporated into to into the development uh the roundabout at 100th Street um we didn't really talk about that we didn't know uh we don't feel like a signal would be warranted there um but um um and then so we never we didn't really um discuss too much about the round yeah well right now we've got 2500 cars that are going up and down there every day and then that would be that much additional that you're looking at so I think it's definitely warranted to take a look at a roundabout and and I think that that's part of County too that that would be able to help with that but to look at that as you address that into it see if we get some County money for that I think that would help the whole city this would be aned into the city though before yeah okay then I think we should be looking at at that now on County wouldn't be have anything to it well it would for the County Road off of aund because that that's 12 and and 112 we own the road like we do we have to look at that with what it is again I haven't got into the township stuff we'd have to look at the orderly annexation agreement and determine that with the county in the township but whatever the case is I know when we've looked at other applications that have come from traffic is always a concern that we look at so it's you know is there adequate space for a turning lane left to turning lane right just making sure that especially if we're looking looking more commercial here also it's that the loading docks the unloading making sure you've got room for the larger trucks that would be coming through and servicing the different businesses that the roads can handle the weight of those trucks yep yep making sure that the road bed is the correct depth U making sure emergency vehicles can get through uh and then city services making sure all the city services that are adequate not necessarily come up on too many applications here at least in the last couple years since I've been on it but other zonings I've been out we've also talked about you know when you look at the green space that you've got on there are there any specific Wildlife corridors that's come up previously um I've heard just different things like that as well just to conserve what you can if you're going to leave that space if there's anything specific back there already and you're already going to leave some of it you know are there things that you can do to move but I'll say I appreciate you coming in advance to talk us right way we like and then the other thing I just throw out there is just make sure that as you start to work on this involve the neighbors to the north to the east to the South to the West as much as you can I think people will be excited to have some different services available in town but we just want to make sure people are aware of it and uh I appreciate you coming so we get some awareness of this as well because till it showed up in our packet this was the first at least that I had seen of it so I appreciate it I have a question if you could refresh my memory it was a lot of information you know without having ever heard of it so this this land that is to the east of Minnesota Avenue that is going to be commercial space and the land to the West is going to be for um for is it is it higher density residential like multif family resal so I'm sorry I said did I not say East yeah I'm sorry I've got my directions mixed up to the West thank you is the commercial to the east is the residential can you describe again how many acres in that East portion and what is it that you're wanting to put in there yeah so again on the West Side that's all designated um as Highway commercial based on the land use plan on the east side um that there is approximately 36 Acres that are currently designated as high dens or um multif Family residential uh but we would propos to amend that uh land use designation to all highway commercial so this would be um the both sides so the east side and the West Side would all be Highway commercial designation as it would be zoned so this whole parcel as you see it here at some form would have listed some of these business ideas that are listed yeah oh it would all be business on both sides got it okay thank you no residential components thank you for that clarification yep y can I mention something we are also going to have Architectural Review the high traffic stuff will be on the west side of Minnesota Avenue and the daycare the Chiropractic the dentist banks on the east side that kind of thing and there is on most of it in natural buffer on the back side of that property uh how many acres yeah so there's a you know we're not going to take down the trees and the big hill and Y and there would be required buffer yard in between the residential and the and the commercial and uh um and then again that's one of the areas too we looked at that uh conservation easement to preserve that so that way that could not be taken down in the future um and uh um above that residential area um closely so um and I do want to mention too we do have a name for it and the in the packet you'll see the or noal commercial development but Linda asked me to present this as Gold Rush Crossings so Gold Rush Crossing nice wasn't that wasn't my and so as you see that yeah this the or the concept here too again we um we placed a few few of the um permitted uses within that uh Highway commercial District um and and we didn't include um um buildings on each of the Lots because the intent here is to um subdivide these into smaller Parcels where if there was a user that wanted an acre and a half instead of a half acre or an acre they could combine some of the Lots so it it leaves a lot of flexibility in the development um for for different types of uses but as Linda said the um the plan is to have the um higher traffic users over on the on the west side of the um Minnesota Avenue there then I do see just with the gas station were you intending that to be more like a passenger or would it be also the diesel truck stop more more of a truck stop yep on the gas station be a truck stop kind of curious it won't be a full pledge correct yeah yeah we just don't have enough room there okay that's what I was wondering I stop the trucks from coming in right no but I'm just you know thinking about that they're looking at five yeah but like the grocery store and that kind of thing it's so high traffic and semis have to deliver the product right that is all going on the West Side um my full name is Linda Vandal King I've lived here all my life I live 3 miles west on 100 Street in New hman Township I've lived there for 55 years and then I lived down bandal road before that in Rochester and we will have strict requirements No Junk uh you can't see the garbage disposal that has to be all included en closed will have Architectural Review on all the buildings Etc so we are trying to make this so it is things that city of or no me thank you we appreciate the sneak peek so we look forward to hearing more after the sneak peek that we got tonight so you know no PO shs nothing like that very good thank you moving on to Old business or no we had another a minute I waited for everybody to talk and they missed a few things I can't find my sheet though that I F out oh yeah but I'll fill out another one um something uh some things that they missed is Linda bandal King mentioned she's a bandal and uh and your name I'm sorry oh I'm sorry Joe suin uh or no okay um and she uh devel uh bandal Hills if you've ever heard of that subdivision that's over by 60 fish treat and quick trip that that entire uh housing subdivision and stuff over there if you if you know where that is um but there's a long list of uh names and businesses that I have and just to name a few more is uh I believe 90% of the business business that I have on my list are local businesses they're not franchises or big big people coming in to answer somebody's question about a gas station truck stop if you look at the prelim prelim map uh you'll see the gas station kind of on the in the middle on the highway side and that's more for Frontage for a gas station SLG Grocery and you know coffee and everything else that they have nowadays on those gas stations if we go to more of a truck stop you'll probably go more to where the I think the grocery store is on that map so it's right off of 100 Street so if you do have a semi or trucks and stuff like that they're not going to go back in they're going to be up front so that's just a possibility uh depending on that uh we have uh done a lot of research we've looked into uh what does oroko uh want and need as far as things that we don't have in our city and uh we wrote down a community center as a possibility we wrote down Senior Center as a possibility and something that came up many times was a daycare center uh as three other possibilities besides uh what we heard tonight as far as grocery at bank and so forth um any questions for me as far as the real estate section goes I don't think so thank you thank you yeah is there anyone else before I H move on all right well thank you I appreciate you guys coming through and uh like I said giving us a sneak peek of what you're thinking at least and we look forward to seeing what you finally put down on an application someday next we've got own business so we next have our WSB project update you so WSB is the company that is working on rewriting our zoning I did hear from them they did get a lot of feedback from the surveys they were surprised by the amount of surveys they had over 60 last when I talked them a few weeks ago so they did say with that many surveys coming through between that they had people that came up to them they were here for gold rush they were also here for was it night out that the amount of feedback they've got gotten from the community is amazing so excellent the Outreach that we did the fact that we had I still have a website out there where information's available they were very pleased and what they're trying to do is read through and make sure if there is feedback from that they do want to make sure the look and feel of what our residents of town have and want is Incorporated in reflective of the proposed code so what we are looking at right now is there's going to be another Zoom meeting of the steering committee that will look at this draft and the date on September 30th September 30th so that Zoom meeting will be available and open to anybody if they want to log on and look at it and we'll make sure that information is out there in the City calendar or out on the website someplace there but we will have that available and for those of you who are on steering looking forward to seeing you all in Zoom or if you just want to hop on and listen and anybody out there as well please feel free so what we are hoping is that this will be reflective of what the future of oronoko is going to need because we know there are developers that are looking to do stuff here and we're a great community so everybody wants to hang out can you say um but we want to make sure we're doing it right yeah and that's the piece is we want to make sure that we continue to push forward on this but that we are doing it and make sure making sure that we're reflec of what we really really need to have for our residents so questions on on WSB so and we we heard in city council that um they the code is ready to be reviewed and and as we understand it's or the ordinances it's customary to have have uh you know your city engineers and and others look at it um and I I would hope it comes back to here back here first for us to review it and make any additions or or you know any updates we're going to be doing a full review of whatever this draft is so just if if you're on the steering committee or not does not mean you get out of getting to read all this so it's going to be great fun great great fun um but no it will absolutely be coming through here um my guess right now is that we'll come close to our time frame it may be off by a mon is my best guess at this point but we'll know more at that meeting for sure but the we will have homework to do before that meeting so I'm hoping it's a discussion and not a what's in it it will be a we've read it and at least at that steering committee for the September 30th meeting a draft you want us to have read the draft before we arrive at the meeting some of it okay just want to know what the expectations soon we can get it too the sooner we can the better off we're all going to be I thought you were being funny well I'm that too yeah but as much as we can do and if we end up getting to the meeting and we all end up have lots of questions and maybe it does get pushed out but I'd prefer as much as we can to keep this rolling forward when are we going to receive the draft that we're expected to read before the a good question and I will find out okay our late night reading yeah so I will find out and it I know it might be in sections so it may not be the full we'll see what we've got I do know with that that it's industry standard is what I've been told that when you do have a rewrite to the extent that we're doing that you may send it to your existing pnz support is just say do you want to take a look at this and it's usually standard and customary to just say yep or NOP or you know but I did talk to them and they will they actually uh WSB does have Engineering Services on as well within their organization so they are also doing a review of it from their side as well oh good probably the one thing we may want to do is maybe check with somebody at Le minnona cities to see if there's somebody up there that would want to take a review of it because I think that might be good to just have an outside perspective so and that is something they ordinarily are able to do so I don't know if what there might be gr of cost wise on that but that would probably be something we can talk about at the steering committee if we want a steering to have a recommendation to come back here to have League of Minnesota cities maybe take a look at it too just the better we can have this the more clear it is the easier it is for everybody out there in our city to understand what do you need to do I mean truly our code should take care of 95% of the requests that come through and we should not see them at pnz other than at the end of our meeting of here's what came through this last month another 5% yeah we might see come through maybe not even five let's go with 2% yeah we're missing some detail in our code yeah so okay anyway I just like to make sure we have the draft as soon as possible because that is GNA be some reading Pages it was 600 and we're hoping to bring it down even with pictures so it's it's going to be an illustrative code which means more Graphics which is so much easier to understand any other questions on have USB then we go into our monthly incoming zoning apps and questions how many are watching the ey works right now you can track of that I am not I have I haven't looked at it for probably two weeks or three weeks now good to kind of stay on top of something that I watch and take a look at I think it's it's very good it helps out yeah it's definitely a good thing I have you from the city Side are there any applications or any other questions or concerns that have been coming up on the zoning side no I'll speak to the first public hearing of you know it's one of those we have communication going back to July 31st with the resident um and there was waiting to get clarification back so there was a lot of Prior communication before then this wasn't just that we dropped the ball this was trying to get all the information um with that I will say there is clean up that needs to be done with the process overall um so that's something we'll look into more and I'm going to talk with our St counterparts and see what's going on and and just see I can get clarification where that got dropped and how got dropped and get that fixed so but I do think that we need to as a city have a standing process because there's not one as to what information needs to be collected for what if we're going to do a variance are going to do this what what should they have before we say I'm not even going to touch your application you can try and turn in but we're not going to take it until we have a and C so and so that clock never starts then right we don't get into those predicaments and I think there's a difference between an incomplete appli appliation and a complete application too it's the other piece of it sometimes difference between what incomplete and complete that's one on like as City staff I don't know what necessarily is complete because I'm not a owner I don't know you know know those exact things so it's one of those and we don't have a checklist right now as a city that's something they've never had and that's usually we take it in send it out and go look at this is it complete or not and that takes time to do and then if it's not then it's a game of back and forth trying to get it get it completed so and there was back and forth at the end of July trying to get it completed and I had no other communication I was looking through my emails where you guys were talking about it there was no other Communications after July 31st uh one way or the other hearing back from the gentleman um that I was part of me like that I was included on the email so that's why I'm going to dig a little bit more see if there was more that might have happened but I just think we need to have that and would be nice to you know as for Planning and Zoning if you can give us guidance to yeah these are the steps well and what we've talked about is with this new code one of the requests was we want to look at our documentation and have checklists so when somebody hasn't request I want to do ABC here's the application and here's the checklist of information you need to include I mean that should be reasonable with what our new code is that that's the end result that we've asked for and and I I think there's opportunity to automate things um more opportunity than resource but um I think there's opportunity to automate applications and the automation to be able to determine if something's full or if something's complete or not complete and and and there' be time stamps you know systematically and instead of counting on staff to touch something you know let let the automation and touch it and you know Jason gets a notification that hey some couple things are in your box to take a look at your electronic box or whatever there's there's opportunity and I know we've talked about software different software programs and whatnot um but take time just on the general zoning stuff too my angle is once we've got the code updated is also try and make it for the staff in the cities because there is training included in our proposal that will be provided to all of us on the new code but if we have the top 20 questions that come to the city for pnz stuff right whether it's whatever it might be I want to put in a pool or I thinking of putting more shrubs in do I need to do anything you know some of it might be we don't even need to know some of it might be here's your permit some of it might be you got a more in-depth application but if we can narrow it down to the top 20 that come through to the office and they can look up here's my question here's the answer and here's your packet of information yeah I mean that will help the city out a lot and all of our residents and what we can do is at the end of each month are there new new ones that get added to that list but we start with the top 10 20 and grow that information the ey works is is pretty good when you go through that and there's a lot of information that's in there you know and staying on top of it so it's a whole lot more detail than what you get on this piece of paper you know so yeah take a look and watch it's there's a lot of stuff that's there that's available and I'll say too I I think there's there's opportunity and and I I would help I'd work with you Jason Renee and whoever so once once our new code our code is all updated is is to use you know overlay it with with AI so our our residents can go out and type in a question and allow AI to answer it looking at our code taking them to where it is in the code um there's it'll be searchable yeah it's it's not it's not real difficult we'll get there well I showed it to you so so that's that's we did so for those and I don't know if this was included the permit report on the in our packet I don't think it was that's why they got left they were y so s minutes well this will get added I make a motion oh yeah favor I oos all right thank you all and 839 yes [Music] first thank you