##VIDEO ID:DYef95RqqrE## this is our monthly Water and Sewer meeting it's December the 10th we have a quorum so start and um a couple things add to the agenda one after ran excuse me Roman Nole number five and before the penalty of faure to secure SE water connection we're going to add 2025 sewer water rate review get to that I'll hook my computer up and um P has put together sheet spreadsheet that we can in as bottom of line we want to come up with a recommendation to give to council for next week for 2025 B so and uh the second item is to review members terms years and find out um going forward if we need to uh build the open spaces so we'll add that right before before the next meeting on the back page that before Bo item R number 10 and I have a hand out of the summary of the best dates that I can come up with looking at the meeting records in January of each year so so with that I make a motion with those amendments I'll second any comments see none all those in favor signify by saying I I I oppos approved it's a copy of the November 12 minutes there for approval motion there I right motion approve the minutes I'll second it any changes or correction all favor saying I Hey Joe would you make our construction status update sure first with waste treatment plant um construction status we're really kind of dealing with the remaining few remaining punch list items um the most important of which is well let's go through the items I guess in order sorry the first is the pay request a pay request number 32 for $23,170 32 that's for payment of the uh was pumps that'll be installed in the spr next week they have been delivered so we're making payment for them and then also payment for the lab equipment that um for the total yeah uh change order number five was approved last last month by the city the city council and was submitted by the MP to the mpca and then we get to the punch list issues the outstanding issues the contractors working to address uh the most important one is item a the electrical switch gear as you recall we've been waiting on that waiting on that waiting on that and we were supposed to get that I think in October and then maybe November and we got this letter from um Eaton and so on the back side some correspondence a little bit of email correspondence from me yeah um basically the letter says that the electrical switch gear uh won't arrive until the end of December or possibly early January uh we'll see if that indeed happens they've got all kinds of excuses associated with material shortages and labor issues and all the stuff that we've all heard before um the bad part is is you know it's big wire dealing with this switch gear coming into the building and um when it's really cold that wire is hard to deal with and so the contractor is kind of saying if it's really going to come in January they don't want to be there in January to install it and I I can appreciate that um everything is running fine on the temp uh panels that we do have um I don't see a reason to push the issue in January or February um assuming that it does come in January holding back on enough money we are there's a couple $100,000 in just that item sitting there plus all the project so um I don't think it's the contractor's issue I truly do believe it's eaten and the suppli you know the supplier the um we don't have any control of that neither as a contractor but it's still a sore Point obviously um so that is the unfortunate update that looks like it'll probably be March before that actually gets installed assuming that it does come in January or February I guess at this point um other issues um you know the waste activated um flood pumps that go on the spr uh they have been delivered uh they're scheduled to be installed next week in fact all of the punch list items uh here are really scheduled to be addressed next week um based on the contractor's feedback he's trying to line everybody to be out there at the same time so that work can get checked off and addressed [Music] um K any items updates things you want to talk about in that vein I guess you've been a party to the correspondence and you're also out there a lot more than I am yeah I I think I copied on that email yesterday with automatic automatics coming out next week as well so hopefully next week there's some action and and see some of these items fall off the list some automatic systems items won't fall off the list until the switch gears and then the final programming can be done but at least a few of their issues and especially the most recent issues uh with lift station and few other things can be addressed yep um anything else else there or from anybody else you guys want to talk about do you need a the pay request you need a motion on that one the council actually approves it I we all just put it in there kind of as an FYI and if people have questions I'm happy to answer we don't have to approve okay I don't think we have been okay keep moving there so the valark they'll be here next week too that's what I'm told yeah Valor and Kilmer super and those that take care of the last item the hbac yeah and that is uh whv they're the contractor that uh needs to deal with that but that is what I'm understanding is it'll be there too do you know anything different I haven't heard anything from whb but that's what that's what Jason kind of said in that email they're all supposed to be there sure so Jeff's going to be there good um I'll be there you'll be there um he was going to call the electrician make sure he knew when they were going to be there and I think that uh D there Joe the exhaust fan and the power and the motor and the we've been back and forth on that so many times we just needen everybody on site before we walk away from from it again and right I agree hope it's not too much of a serial event one person hopefully not so that's also the signage is there now so stop a put that up the signage is not there they just asked me for some information about the sizes which are they detailed in the plan so they're supposed to be having them manufactured this week so they can install them next week so they just say oroko wastewater treatment plant entry exit and then the no trespassing signs those types of things that go on the perimeter of the fence so minimal minimal type things but things that need to be done super um we do have a people's service operation update Kane I I noticed that uh the report and I the little bit of Correspondence I had with Dan indicates that they were having some phosphorus issues but found out that they had a broken chemical line what's that about yeah so they were the chemical line was broken so they Wen were not feeding chemical where was it going well I think it was running back into that chemical uh manhole there's one chemical manhole I think it was showing itself there okay so is that Alum I think is that the chemical Y is that's for the uh phosphorus phosphorus yes so uh and they re the peoples repaired that that must have been a straightforward the contractor didn't apparently I I yeah I mean if there was an issue they should have fixed it yeah but there's heat trace on a bunch of that too so I assume that it was I don't know I just was questioning it I you know it's it's funny I get a lot of my updates from this update I don't get it firsthand from people so I'm kind of reading between the lines too here well next week let's figure that out absolutely we'll ask get to the bottom of that but it sounds like it's been rectified at this point for what it's worth I know during the tour I think it was the tour um I think they're feeding Alum almost continuously um which I wouldn't expect unless there's unless there was a reason for it they were supposed to get that uh controlled by the flow meter incoming flow meter they were supposed to get chemical Fe bed on that so it'd be reactive it' constantly be yeah it really shouldn't be necessary all day every day even at even at low levels unless there's some other contributing factor with with the you know now you say that though Those sensors in thebr are giving feedback to the chemical I think that's supposed to be automated at this point it is functional it was functional I believe they got that automated but back to my email with Dan and automatic Joe I don't know if Dan ever got that finalized I thought it was final I was under that understanding too and after the weekend alarm and whatnot I we need some clarification with Dan well few things to sort out in advance the next week and if they need to be addressed we get them addressed and the at the end of the day you know if they have to use Alum to mean permit then they have to but um there should be some contributing factor that's causing that that hopefully they could address we weren't definitely weren't doing that earlier in the year so I there's been a kind of a few hiccups or whatever with the operation different things have happened that kind of upset things so and it's a relatively spendy chemical in there's been several things that have been you know uh late to be discovered right so weeks go by months go by all of a sudden hey this valve was open right so we weren't wasting we you know we were just essentially Recycling and there there's multiple things like that and I think this chemical line was they thought they were feeding everything looked good but they were not feeding so kind of back to the drawing board and so these lines are from the where the chemical building is at the north side of the SBR up into the SBR something right and they're in conduit they're buried in conduit with a heat Trace line to keep that liquid that Alum kind of gets uh thick I guess and it won't flow so it needs to be heated are all the chemicals temperature wrapped or heat wrapped just the alen right is that that's not all of it either I mean the parts of it that are buried deeper they're not wrapped but is that why the phosphorus was so high in October it could be so I hope it's not a temperature related issue there will be some of that though as as the temperature of the waste water decreases biology slows down and you have to compensate for that um usually you you bulk up your the amount of biology you have in the process because they're not working as hard so you need more of them um other things like that seasonal changes can cause upsets orle State's flow is pretty consistent 347,000 Gall September [Music] October close yeah some fluctuation I guess and I don't know what their occupancy rate is what's a continuous 80% 90% whatever they've given me the same number of occupancy since we started in April well they get build on their occupancy um as you know part of the eru factor so they have no incentive to tell you the truth right now they're getting built for 180 erus but the usage number that's metered in our metering B so that number should be coming out of our of our equipment yeah well and if the usage isn't going up it's likely that their connections isn't going up at least significantly their average monthly usage since we started April 1 uh 83,000 that's their average okay just a side note there all right Wastewater flows cane um do you think you could look up the flow coming out of the uh Two Sisters Restaurant I can and the only reason I bring that up is we're supposed to monitor that for the first six months you know and and potentially adjust their um and Sack calculation based on the [Music] eru yeah happen to think to pull that all right next item is f jald we do have a small carut for Fitzgerald as well toing 8,486 187 that's mostly for um the uh Lift Station electrical upgrades uh at Riverbend Estates uh they got done that equipment came in and was installed um trip restoration you know nothing's happening really on that till next next year um the airvac release manholes I think uh the three new uh valve seats were installed that were actually delivered uh there are two more that are on back order and will be shipped here later and installed um I would think they'd be here soon but I haven't heard anything about that specifically I think Fitzgerald will install them as soon as weather is reasonable or when the weather is reasonable put that in any new issues on that Kane um no I just think uh we need to suck out some of the water that's in them in the manholes and then we need to start just monitoring weekly every other week and just kind of rate our progress if we do have issues or if there starts to be an issued and we went back and looked at the ones with the new new softer seats is that working those are working yes well that's a good sign yes we are going to do some internal Plumbing on those uh as far as venting those down so if they do have liquid hopefully they'll go into a barrel or something to catch it so we we talked with that Adam uh rep on that so it sounds like we're able to do that uh smell at lift station one I haven't heard anything haven't heard a word later probably won't this time of year SC uh and then I guess the second item is the gas service in River Park any additional information on that gas service damage and sounds like the gas company denied any responsibility for that correct correct so the npl the gas company uh there was a new law state law federal law pipeline law that went into effect in 2012 and since this was constructed in 2005 or six when River Park was built uh that's kind of the hang up there they're they're only liable after 2012 uh before that they didn't have to Daylight utilities they didn't have to verify depths but since that new pipeline law went into effect after 2012 that's when their responsibility or their takes over so essentially from 2006 when the gas line was put in in the development and the sewer was put in until 2016 when they built the house there's 10 years there of who knows what happened was it the gas company was it I mean so they're they're not taking any responsibility for it uh I did receive the bill from go per septic I want to say that was 700 in change so pretty reasonable pretty reasonable fix uh I did reach out to the homeowners and since they contacted uh the jeder company on their own uh after talking with City staff we decided that the homeowner is responsible for that bill that jedar bill and the city would be responsible for the go for septic the actual repair of the sewer service so pretty minimal expenses got I think everyone got lucky on this one could have been firers so that was that was the gas company though that that we didn't deal directly with npl did we as far as communicating with yes yep yep I I contacted npl directly and and explained what happened and um so now because they would have been working on behalf of the developer not the gas company right or how does that how does that usually work they had to been working for the gas company correct they couldn't just install it unless they had a permit for the city to install it so it's got to come from the gas company so now what they do is they actually uh they actually uh send robots down the sewers and up the laterals and they uh GPS and locate all those services and uh they offered that service to us they they can do that for us in the future so something to think about if we ever wanted to take on a neighborhood like River Park Riverwood Hills Cedar Woodlands some of those neighborhoods that are some unknowns right right now I guess if we got a a a sewer locate in one of those neighborhoods I wouldn't be able to locate it but that's typical of sewer too I mean usually you're not going that deep you're not usually so we will have we do have all that sewer has been televised and cleaned as part of the project and we are mapping that in conjunction with the record plans and so you'll ultimately get that you know you'll get at least 2D mapping on it you won't get the third dimension right but uh that'll help locate it absolutely and we've been using some of that already from the televised uh I've got those uh files so when uh it comes time to looking for where that that Y is on the main or where that that t is you know we can measure that out manhole to manhole and that gets us in the neighborhood right now kind of where it goes from there on the property is guess or you know elevation and so yeah for the $700 it's not worth putting up too much of a stink but but if it were through a main for example and the cost was significant I I think we go to the actual gas utility right I'm surprised that they don't have some liability it's their their fault well they didn't we haven't just established that they just said it's not their fault every good contractor says that I mean and for the $700 it's not really worth fting it but because there been 10 times that but I guess that' be the only recourses to contact the gas company if you really wanted to but again it's you it's not going to be a quick easy painless deal you probably waste more time than it's worth but which get a response if any if if you get one yeah and you know in the future too if if we did want to go the extra mile if Public Works did or if the city wanted to advise this you know going into the house uh getting into the cleanout and shoving down a locator through the cleanout out to the street you know that's another option we have uh but now we're inside homes and we're it just opens up maybe some liability y but it is an option I don't think you want to go there unless you really got a problem oh yeah I think the best course is have goer or whoever do the work and if it's our fault we pay for it yeah and that's one we talked about last month too is is uh defining where those utilities and the homeowners uh start and stop so hopefully this winter we've got some time to discuss and Define and move forward so one quick question when you televise the line from manhole to manhole on your laterals yeah between the two do you actually know where the private take off that T we know where the service T's are yep right it usually has a like running total of how many feet you are from the manle right you zero it out when you enter and Y once that that robot or that camera starts it just starts ticking away feet and so you 150 ft or whatever it is put an x on the road and there's our T and good information find the bathroom in the basement yeah iBall it exactly all right um anything else with B Jerald oh that truck sitting out there on Second Avenue do they know that one window is busted out the right side mirror in front the one that flips open I'll I'll contact Luke or Joe and let him know been busting for quite a while but I don't know what's in there maybe tacos they call it the taco truck Taco special so there's tacos in there yeah okay okay next item um St Tech Wastewater project construction services budget shift and did you want to cover that want a rate review that your sewer water rate view I thought that was before that's going to do that right after that oh okay yeah um yeah I am putting together a letter to the city requesting that we are authorized to ship some budget from the wastewater treatment facility construction service budget to the sanitary sewer collection treatment facility budget we've got lots of budget in the wastewater treatment facility project and we're down to about $20,000 in the sanitary sewer collection system budget we don't have a lot of work remaining in e there but we do have you know record plans and followup and project close out and things like that and so um we'll need some of that extra budget in the sewer collection project and you know there's lots of justification for that you know the projects we've provided services for about a year longer than we expected to and uh we've done some additional things like the river bend Estates sanary sewer system and related Construction Services with that and you know a whole host of smaller things but really I and I'm not asking for additional budget I'm just looking to shift budget from one to the other and at the end of the day we're still going to be under so that's what I was hoping so do you want a motion to recommend to council to shift that I think that would be appropriate one question I have is well I make a motion to recommend to council that we approve shifting $50,000 from the wastewater treatment plant project to the sanitary sewer collection treatment project to cover remaining project cost close out and record plan work for second I'll I good okay he said you had a question yeah I had a question so um at the end when we get all the work done on nether the treatment but whatever is left on that project what happens to those dollars well you're they just go away I mean if we don't we we bill on an hourly basis if you don't use it you don't use it you don't pay for it no bucket that well toay so what happens is we submit an invoice to the city the city submits the invoice to PFA and they essentially borrow borrow the money to you through your at this point because the grant dollars are all gone through the drink clean water revolving Loan Fund and then you pay it off over the next 30 years so that's that's kind of how that works okay so if you know if if we're under budget we're under budget that's great it just decreases that yeah Lo proportionately yeah okay any other comments none all those favor signif I by saying I I I post approved make sure that gets on the council agenda I'm pretty sure it is I do have to draft that letter yet I'll get that to Jason probably tomorrow okay it is on the agenda I gave that as an agenda item so I'm pretty sure another thing that would be good I think just for Council awareness is to include this letter from eaten we can attach it to the minutes maybe just so people know all right so next item is our sewer discussion for water and sewer computer up fill that spreadsheet culations J hope I don't lose you e Ryland I just sent you a new a new spreadsheet let's try that new one if you open up your outlook this might be a little easier more refined all right uh what i g to do first water sure that's an easy one do this go away okay so this first screen here uh yeah br's making it figger you can see the uh column B and C those are the 2024 water rates residential non-residential uh so the green is your basee rate for eru uh the blue is your usage rates and so if you go to the those uh columns d and e Ryland right there the green the green highlighted and you put in say 5% put in a five there and enter in so that that shows you kind of the what the impact is for residential accounts now uh I just threw 5% out uh but if we did a 5% increase on the eru the base charge uh the state search charge stays the same well 2 stays the same but you come up with a new amount for your base rate dollar more 25 to 26 yep a dollar more there 5% and then so if you go to your usage rates down to is that is that bottom is that total base rate supposed to be the sum of the numbers above it again Dylan I guess so are did these three numbers added together equal this number okay they kind of do though so they do yeah but they don't hear uh because 81 and five stay the same they do don't they why doesn't that uh can you can you move your cursor down to this box please Ryland yeah the 26.99 that's correct so yeah you take D4 * 1 plus D4 * D3 so it's just a okay so you're you're adding this 5% to some of these you're adding the 5% just you just add it to the 2017 just to the facility charge not the state Sur charge not well to okay you just add it to the facility charge okay so last year Ryland did we do a for per raise is that um I want to say it was 5% last year I don't think it was five I don't think it was low as three or three and a half no sewer we talked about 5% and 3% on water kind of the that's how we said looked at our wax sack charges so maybe maybe maybe one of my questions to the committee and ultimately the council is you know how do we want to structure our rates if it if the the expenditures for the water utility are 500,000 right we want to take 500,000 in we want to break even right we want to cover our expenses but is there how much of a a buffer do we want to add to that I know we can't we can't overcharge we can't say we want to throw 20% on top of that you know the PFA there's rules there we can't gouge well but I would suggest that you start building a reserve to yes do maintenance or Capital Improvements you know you're going to want to pull a well you're going to have some maintenance there you you know potentially someday you might want to expand that 300,000 gallon tank to a 500,000 gallon tank um those things cost money and if you're building a reserve to complete Capital Improvements that's perfectly acceptable to do that uh proactively through the rate structure right so and I would encourage that because some of those costs are coming I mean some of those things are are going to happen you know even replacing hydrants um things like that water meters there's there's going to be Capital costs and to project some of those and start building them into your rate structure makes a whole lot of sense so so this is just so let's just yeah so the 5% for the base rate but if we I say we should look at a 5% then for the usage rate too then or is it can it be less than or should more I would just say the same as a conversation piece if you put 5% there Island so that changes all of your your tiered rates you know under 5,000 is lower 5 to 10 is a little higher 10 to 15's a little higher and then at the bottom there you you know we're combining your base rate plus your usage and you're kind of seeing what that that change is and then that net effect the yellow down below that's times uh 450 users or whatever I put there 442 442 erus at 3,000 gallons a month a 5% increase on both usage and rates NSA 8,000 in change so is your usage really that low 3,000 gallons a month if even if you can include all the irrigation and all that just average that Joe that the 442 users divided by what we're what we're metering in our November meeting I think the water rate average for what was the packet was 3,500 gallons per average per user could be I think we're between three to 5,000 uh if you average it out now there's there's 20 to 30 out there right now that are less than 100 per month right but then there's 20 to 30 that are 10,000 plus so if you go the average route I think you're between that three and 5,000 so was $18 is an annual that would be the the difference yep so you're paying an extra what is it $153 per month times 12 months it's $18 extra a year at 3,000 gallons okay I just want to make sure that was not a monthly change no you you took it times 12 okay all right in your formula yep I didn't I didn't do the formula for the non-residential just because the majority of our meters are residential but you can tell they pay a little bit more the non-residential accounts I guess back to your original thing though what do we need to cover our expenses and build the reserve so what does that yellow number need to be to cover all our expenses for next year with building up reserves so that we can do things you look at our audit reports for the last couple years in the past we've done like three and a half 3% maybe it was four last year I don't remember but we're still not positive and that's but they recognize when we when Smith and schaer do our audits they recognize that there's depreciations and changes but you want to make sure trying to that line because that's what P pafa watches they want to make sure you're charging so get they get some security that they're getting money back so oh so 5% maybe something we need to consider um it's a modest dollar $18 a year for 3,000 gallons so do do we know what that deficit was though or had most recent it was in our you remember I don't remember I guess that's where I'm going it's like does it need to be 6% does it need to be 8% like we shouldn't be in a deficit situation that's not a good position for the city to be in and another thing to consider is you've added a lot of users over the last year that aren't necessarily accounted in last year's audit so things should improve like the businesses they pay higher well and just all the you know you added 100 100 connections just the water side over the last year and so they wouldn't have shown up in the previous audit depending on what the audit showed and the forecast from that we may not need a rate increase at all I I think that's unlikely but without kind of knowing what that deficit is well in knowing that you want to build a cash Reserve to be able to implement some Capital Improvements I I would not not do an increase you know what I mean to build up faster than you want then you know yeah Joe are you talking about the 600 602 accounts yes yeah so I think one of those is at a deficit of like a negative 150,000 approximately the other is at2 250 right now well the audit is from what showed in 2023 so but that's um yeah which is why um Mr bubani you know I recommended with the 425 account was supposed to help with those until we got some footing under us got a couple years under us of of flow and and increased usage and incre in rates to help offset those deficits well let's leave it at five for a second and let's just go look at sewer yeah come back to this Jason for your question I don't think those audit reports the PowerPoint that Andrew gave us in August was that in the packet or not was that a handout I don't recall it might have been a handout there was a lot of pages in there what s there was a lot of pages in there I don't recall you know what it said for those two specific accounts off top of my head I think it was just a hand out which is what they typically do so and that's a year behind right Ryland that that last was for 2023 so on the sewer rate page here uh Ryland uh same thing uh sell C2 you can enter in a a percent change and you can see the the effect it has on the rates and your monthly bills the five come over from the water no you can you can change that completely separate so let's just talk about 5% um Bas rate went up and nickel so yeah when you go down to row 12 column D you start to see that change you know 3,000 gallons you're looking at a186 difference 5,000 gallons 239 9 and then the next column that's times 12 so that's your annual change and then of course so that's okay this is a total sewer bill base and usage base and usage yep $2 over 12 months what's the what's the reasoning for only changing the usage rate and not the base rate I I changed them both have them both at 5% are you saying don't do that no no no no um I thought when we were Oh no you're right you're right I'm sorry we're on sewer now maybe yeah no even on the water side I was they were they were separate they're separate you could adjust them independently but we correct played with 5% okay so my understanding Dylan is if we adjust the base rate we're affecting everyone the person who doesn't spend their water meter or the person that is 100,000 a month right that base rate's going to get everyone now which is which um you know when you're talking about cost increases things like labor rates chemical costs maybe not chemical costs um but some of those costs um you know are or should be equally distributed some not so much but right they should be based on usage but um well I think we're we're more than annual average rate of inflation for 2024 so at least not losing ground in that regard so I think that's good um and if we are in a deficit um I think you know that's appropriate well we don't know we don't know yeah I just because they're starting up and still adding and yeah at some point I think partial year having a audit SL rate study would be warranted so that we know what those rates really should be so that we can so that if something breaks we can pay to fix it we can we can plan for the Capital Improvements without having to borrow 70 plus% of the money so explain the total effect again so the total effect Ryland that yellow cell at the bottom there that's the city of Oro plus Oakwood Meadows times their Rus right so uh average flow at oid Metals is 83,000 per month so with a 5% increase you'll see uh 4,800 uh cell e26 there that's for oid Metals that's a 5% increase for both base and usage and then uh sell E31 there's an $18,000 increase for oroko so we've got 442 erus at 3,000 uh gallons per month average so that 23,000 is Oakwood Meadows plus oroko gives you that 23,000 Oak Meadows is the the new name for oroko yes yes so the 23,000 is that that's a total for the year of a 5% increase to the city yep we'd see a 5% we'd see 23,000 5% usage and base Joe how much do you think seem like a lot well how much you think it costs to have a a rate study done to for the the two Enterprise funds and depends on how detailed you want your rate study it they they can be end of $50,000 I suppose you know just off the top of my head it depends on how detailed of an analys you want you know you you and do a pretty straightforward one mikeon probably do a pretty straightforward one for next to nothing um where things get a little more complicated as you start building in your CIP into that and you know yeah should have real dollars attached to those Capital Improvements and things like that but um I don't I don't know that I would do a rate study quite yet I think that in a few years it's good idea I think making sure that the utilities have the money to do the rate study oh yeah yeah is that I think we're at that point though right to make sure that we build up a $30,000 cushion with the expectation that we're going to have to do a rate study so we can really get these forecast so when this rate goes up you do it to both residents and non residents right you have two fees for resident and non-resident uh residential and non-residential that's a business for the water yep so but right now we don't have any percentage in for the non-residential we we do you can you can add that it's just not factored in you know there's 20 some non-residential accounts right so I just did there zero right but we would increase those too you wouldn't just suck the residents because non-residential is using it too y i just Ed by the amount of erus we have total and most of the um additional properties served have already connected right the vast majority or we still going to have a lot of sewer and water Connections in the spring we're we're gonna have a quite a few uh I bet you we've got uh 50 to 60 sewers and about 50 Waters so we may not have a really good picture on revenues until 2026 that's more than I I thought we were closer I thought we had more connection maybe water is only I got that wrong it was 10 less than 10 10 are facing the deadline RI water only yep 10 are facing that November deadline I mean I can support a 5% increase but I I think uh with the expectation that at some point we're going to have to do more than just you know well you know it's an extra 20 bucks a year for most Property Owners we need to make sure covering expenses oh yeah close the deficits um and build up that or at least I don't know what build up but establish some cash Reserve R you put 5% in a non just want to see how much things go up I'm residential E3 and E10 just curious what that 8,000 goes up to you how much like I say that's just the residential like I say it's just factoring the residential the 20 or so non-residential ones I think they pay just slightly higher rate so it's not a huge amount so I guess what I'm missing here you guys is how big is the loan right do we owe a million dollars do we ow 1010 million right that's going to factor into how aggressive we're going to be and then also if it so back to my original question was do you want the base rates to pay the loan off and usage to supplement future Capital Improvements right you could look at it that way say everyone shuts their faucets off right they're all going to conserve water we still want to be able to pay off our water and sewer loans with the base rates right I'd say that's the most important one yeah it it's very conservative it's very conservative if all all of us who have water and sewer pay a a higher base rate that covers the loan payment and all of our usage than supplements or funds beyond that right I I'm not a money guy honestly but generally speaking in my head base rates should cover fixed costs variable costs that vary with the demand on the system should be covered by usage rates um and things like your plant investment fee your water access charges those should be used to cover Capital costs either U recoup those those retroactively to pay off loans or build up the reserves to pay for future improvements but that's probably oversimplified honestly there there's so here's some real numbers uh people's Services is charging us 225,000 per year the city is also contributing $75,000 in wages for sewer just sewer right now so just wages the city Jason's time Rene's time my Public Works time uh and people's 300,000 no utilities yet so if you throw in utilities and you throw in chemical and you throw in the the bare bone Lo on what that sewer utility needs let's just say 320,000 350,000 right would your base rates cover that 350,000 or would they cover just a portion of those expenditures I think a rate study would give us a better I mean honestly you don't want to listen to me on this stuff I mean I I could be leading I think there's a need for rate study I don't think it's right yet just because not everybody's hooked up yeah historical cash flow have nothing that's why there was 150,000 put into our the CIP fund into our cash Val cash flow analysis to give us that buffer until we do get to a steady three four years from now whatever the number is but do we we should have an idea 2024 what did we pull in in our account right cuz we collected that so if we're having to spend $350,000 what did we collect obviously we didn't have sewer the whole year but water and stuff like are we cover I heard is the deficit going to get bigger or we're not covering ourselves like yeah and then we have 50 more users or whatever it is you know we should have a ballpark to get us there based on our current rates and then if we add another 5% or whatever what it only adds a little bit extra but you know does it that's what I want to know is like how are we covering but I need to I I haven't heard yet is what are those magic numbers that we need to hit and what are we pulling in right now the other part of the equation that we haven't talked about um is the whack and Sack and if uh funds that do come to the city um through develop and then the connections that come with that development and the x-r usage so they all bring in you know those fees are significant and they do come back to the utility and they help the utility pay uh not only for operation maintenance but principal and interest payments on your bone so it's uh there's there's a number of things to consider there typically I mean the simple cash flow I think that was maybe in the facility plan kind of set a lot of that basic structure right it did it did yeah Mike's got a you know like Bonnie's got he can model this I just sent you a couple messages um picture messages of stuff that Mike bubani talked about that we've kind of talked about as well and I think you've got the Excel spreadsheet somewhere um but it kind of gives a breakdown of possible expected expenses and revenues for both the water and sewer accounts yes did you get those messages yep so uh expenses for water would be 300,000 and expenses for sewer is around 700,000 correct so if we use those two numbers as ballpark expenditures expenses so just just so everybody understands looking at what we're kind of looking at here under the expenses you have rough estimates for utilities at 15,000 maintenance at 50,000 engineering at 10,000 equipment at 50,000 chemicals at 50,000 um then there's Bond principles so principal amounts on the bonds of 348,000 um and I believe those are from 2022 and then the interest the bond interest is 114 348 and then transfers out to general fund to support salaries of 75,000 that's for the sewer um expenses for the water again 15,000 for utilities 30,000 maintenance 10,000 engineering 25,000 equipment 25 chemicals you have two Bond principal payments for 105,000 from 2009 and 2022 and bond interest of 13,270 from 2009 and 222 and then another transfer out for salaries of 75,000 so those were those were from Mike bubani as kind of you know estimates of What expenses might cost um those were quick quick estimates um he also caning on there it shows the what the expected revenues would be potentially or could be or what we might shoot for um but I don't know how that would break down with your numbers you'd have to put that into your calculations for the base fees and the uh volumetric fees as well as any other development fees or special assessments did he propose what those fees should be to cover these 3700 um no he didn't propose anything um like I said he put numbers into the revenue side but it's he just let me see here for a second yeah we just plugged in numbers as to kind of what you would need to do as far as to help cover the cost to make it an even balance of Revenue and expenses um so you know like it's really going to depend on you know what what rate you're looking at to be able to meet those so and again Kane's got these numbers in the picture there so for the sewer you know he put in here budgeted $122,000 brought in for volumetric fees 163,000 brought in for base fees um estate sales stuff from oroco Estates 34,000 development fees 10,000 special assessments from oroo States and local special assessments of 252,000 um and then investment earnings of 5,000 and then it also had 126,000 from General Capital fund to increase um to help cover the costs for the year so that's that 425 account so bring it in from from there that we're bringing in on the other side in the 100 fund to help cover the sewer the water um their volumetric fees was about 157,000 base fees was 100,000 development fee 10,000 special assessments or local assessments was about 53,723 so I hear all the big numbers and I don't I can't grasp this what we're talking about here 23,000 that's change right change that's just so I I think you know this this spreadsheet really looks at it kind of from the bottom the the user perspective right for me I think it would be helpful looking at the the net fund you know how much are we spending how much are we bringing in um and then you know using that information say okay well we need to raise rates by or we need to collect a million dollars okay now what does that do to our rates if we adjust our rates to get to a million dollars well that's a 35% increase well that's not practical right but you you forecast on that and you incrementally work to get there U but I I I would approach it that way is this something that we need to tonight I don't think we can I don't think we have all the good information I appreciate what Jason shared with us but I don't think we have it for us to work with I guess no and my my thought was to get you guys thinking about it because we'll have one more meeting before the January meeting when we set the fine schedule and I wanted to try to get this going to make sure that you know it wasn't pushed on last minute in January to try and do anything um but to try maybe set a base give Kane a number to start to work with and Kane and I can sit down and then plug and play with that estimated number to bring back to January um to to show what that would do that was my thought so maybe where I struggle with it guys is I hear this $47 million phase 1A Water and Sewer improvements project right and we know some of it a portion of it was covered in grant money but there is the city's portion left right so the unknown here to me is what is that number it's old and it's it's we need to pay it back within 30 years but we also need to start making a reserve right so those are the unknowns for me so when I look at this 5% I don't know if I'm standing in a pothole or if I'm standing in a volcano right I don't know how like Dylan said should do we need to increase 35% to to start making that I don't know so and that's one thing I'd like to just get the right information at my hands at the city's hands and then maybe this would be something that water and sewer could review maybe quarterly to say hey here's the payment back to PFA here's what we owe here's the projections this is a Mike bubani presentation I mean Mike's our guy for this maybe we could invite him to the water and sewer meeting and get water and sewer to buy in on it and then that of course goes to council and well you know with this we've only got three quarters of a year correct yep so maybe after the first of the year one January that before Water and Sewer meeting we can we'll have our expenses and revenue and everything going into January so we have that 75% of a year if that's even enough projection for him to work with um it gives a flavor for how that fits into his original cash flow and see how far we're off on track all the troops whatever it takes but yeah I think it's because Mike bubani said initially Ryland we need to take money from the CIP fund absolutely and put into the W into the sewer fund to start paying that that loan on to supplement that correct so in 2025 I take it that means we're going to take money out of CIP and transfer for into sewer right same in 2026 and a possible few years here get more homes on more units yep I just I you know going through the budget meetings there's all these wants and needs of the city streets and Roads Parks fire everyone needs everyone wants right but I feel like they don't understand that we've already committed this 100 or 150 every year to help out with the sewer fund so is it possible that Mike before the next meeting can put something together to say what should our Revenue based on three4 of this year here's our Revenue give a I would recommend you guys at a rate increase of X Y or Z on on these so that you guys get it closer if we can't get to all of it if he's already saying we're going to have to use something supplemental but then give us a plan like a multi-year plan so if you 5% this year 6% 7% we'll get to a point where now we're building up Reserve covering our expenses paying off the loan so and if I understand correctly those that money that is transferred into the Enterprise fund should get paid back to the general fund it's not a gift it's correct eventually your sewer becomes a a money maker nobody is all it's like but you do pay it back yeah you pay back it's not set up like that so I don't think we the thought process was is that we are supplementing the city is supplementing supplementing the BFA loan for the Wastewater project with general tax revenue to the tune of you know1 or $150,000 for the next four five years then it stops um and the thought process there is you know we reconstructed three or four miles of Street in conjunction with the project many of those streets needed to be reconstructed and so um the cost to reconstruct those streets far exceeds the cost that this of the CIP supplement into the Wastewater fund okay and so the general tax lbby typically pays for Street rehab or Street reconstruction and so that was the thought process that was used it shouldn't be viewed as general tax levy funds supporting the Enterprise that's not paying for services and work that was performed right all right I just want to make sure that it's not looked at like that right and so there is another just a little bit more information for everybody so there is a detailed projection a cash flow projection for the Wastewater project that goes out 30 years right and so that's predicated on estimates of construction cost project costs um it has projections and how much development we're going to see and what the rates are um you know all of that's changed a little bit right our project costs are a little under what we thought they were going to be big picture um the erus that are going to be developed over the next year five years 20 years 50 years there I guess right and so we we don't know what that's going to look like and that has a pretty significant impact on the bottom line and then the other thing that's built into that is usage rates and revenue and an annual increase and I think we projected three or 5% onto that so there's a lot of variables uh within that cash flow projection I think a lot of them are changing yet you know the final project costs this final loan amounts haven't been establish yet um you don't have all the users connected um you know the private development picture is evolving um and you know what we can expect out of that I think those estimates can kind of continue to change too so there's no perfect way to do this but you do have Mike has a very detailed good cash flow statement and or cash flow projection for both utilities sewer and water um and he you know can put CIP improvements and expenditures within that um he has that tool I would continue to refine that and amend that um whether it's pertinent to do it now or next year my two senses I think there's too many variables right now that are changing so I would probably wait I think you got a three or 5% built in for utility rates I think I'd probably stick to at least a 5% um you know I don't think even if he went to 10% it doesn't really move the needle compared to the other variables it just doesn't matter that much so if you projected a 5% increase It Go with a 5% increase and then I would start to look at things more carefully as the number of variables within the projection solidifies yes part of me the only concern I have is I don't want to get to a where then all of a sudden we have to raise like 35% one year because that would not be some residents that would be very detrimental to it yeah right so if we're going to do something we should do a nice slow gradual something that it's more in Pace that people can afford as opposed to have to make a 35% increase because we're in a hole and we got to pay something back so that's where I think I if this year isn't the year to do it because we have so many un more users to hook on we don't have a full year that's fine and we're already budgeting at 3 to 5% 5% is a minimal impact based on this calculation sheet so that for vast majority of people it shouldn't be an issue yeah but keep us in the ballpark where we can cover our expenses but then I think we do need Mike to have a detailed use his information if he's got all this data so that we can make sure that those rates are set appropriately and we don't find ourselves in a huge deficit where then you got to make a huge increase or we defold on a loan the PFA and others wouldn't want that right and I I don't think we need to review everything quarterly honestly my my experience has been typically you do a full-blown rate study every three years you go with it for three years and then you reassess and are you ahead of the curve or behind and then you tweak for the next I think that's what a lot of people r or water rate yeah said the race for six years but they got a mature system too right yeah and and a lot of history to understand the costs and things like that so and I do think the development impact is significant on that bottom line if it doesn't happen if it doesn't happen de rates have to cover for that cost does happen then you're on track and his cash flow analysis he was very conservative with 10 homes a year he was but you know how many homes are we going to get this year so like with River B we did 17 that we weren't aware of all helps oh is it I'm sure there's a lot of startup cost in the first part of this year that are are not normal either expenses you think with like chemical startup and I think there was some but I think you know in the big picture you know you've got some things working for you in terms of construction costs and project costs being slightly lower than you know they big numbers uh compared to you know $10,000 for chemicals or something like that it just what do you think it's having a conversation with with Mike after the first year just sharing our expenditures Revenue where we're at it's just a very it's not a 20,000 foot level but a 10,000 foot level is to say Hey you know are we are we doing okay or we just missed it completely and or way off and gives him some indication but maybe he would prefer to see a one year full year before spending the dollars to figure it out yeah well he's not doing it for free either so no that's what I meant spending doll but right now we don't we don't know what we don't know and well we know quite a bit it's just that we don't know what we don't know everything right you know we don't know what the final construction costs are you know we know within a few percent but you know so but we you could absolutely do that you just have to project all those numbers and then next year you have to project them again or finalize them again but I I know that Mike bubani when I've talked with him about this since I started he's always reiterated the same thing that you know it's going to take a couple years before the city can really get a a good Baseline of where they're at and be able to do solid projections and kind of to go with what Joe is saying is yeah we're not done yet and he's said the same thing the Project's got to finish we've got to get a you know a full year under our belt to really see where we're at and then the second full year of is where we start to see the trends and and patterns start to emerge and and really see start to see that so it is going to take a couple years with that we should consider you know the the minimal increases it'll be something Kane and I might be able to work on to put together something where it shows what would 5% 7% or 10% look like and and have those numbers but you know it's it's one of those things that it's going to take time and even Mike bubani is gonna say that thanks so what do we P if you want to do your study after the first year and we'll we'll decide at our January meeting if if you feel any better with a five or seven or whatever the number is so let's just do that and we for go having the Mike babani conversation because we don't want we just have too many unknowns until we get a full year like we're talking about I don't think it's worthy of his time our time and and uh we come to AUD time we'll come to audit time and just say well we did what we thought we could do if it wasn't good enough so change our attitude and I I will check in with Mike I can talk with him for a little bit and he's not going to charge me um so I can talk with him for half hour and um he's been real good about that with me as I'm learning these processes and these things of not billing me um and to call them with questions so you know if I put something together and say hey can you spend 15 minutes looking at this with me real quick and see if we're on track he'll do that um so I'll try to get that done before January your guys's January meeting okay that'd be great thanks Jason questions we'll move on um probably in process the penalty favor to secure the staff had that discussion we're working through that Jason and I in control next item is the cyber security service plan I do not have an update from them uh hopefully something here first of the year next item was our Cedar Woodlands the station we're gonna think about getting a generator receptacle on that cedar Woodlands yeah uh in process uh one thing about that station is if it does fail it will overflow onto the ground it won't back up into basements which is a permit violation but relatively limited liability correct not saying we should walk away from it but that that is something unique about that design so well and depending on how that's configured too the panels are old you know not I guess I haven't even seen I don't remember what it looks like but I can't imagine it's an impressive it's not impressive at all no so it it may require something more than just a a generator receptacle it may require a little bit more refurbish refurbishing and repairing replacing so maybe you want to do that all at once you know you maybe you just want to see how it operates over the next year and and we got it we got it fixed now so there's two pumps working and they're working the way they should so you know we bought ourselves some time here I think the um the electrical utility will probably want you to um they don't they don't typically like you know people plugging generators onto the grid so they'll probably have to be a separate thre position switch for that correct yep which because it's separate it could be outside of the control upgrade so I don't I don't know that there's much value in necessarily pursuing both together um I think I think if one presents itself before the other then be fine you know the river bed uh lift station uh I should show you that Dylan that's uh because we kept the old gear and just replaced or added a a generator switch a three position switch so you talk about the reposition is that something that we have on all of other stations for that purpose of yes so it's uh how do I say it utility power on the top or bottom and then off in the middle and then generator power in the see you never have utility power and uh generator grid power or generator power at the same time so it's it's here or there nothing in between disconnects One Source before Recon the hey before start of next discussion I was going to bring in the maps or a couple of the maps come about phase 1B and we talk about the 2030 time frame and those were all when um npca was down here for the uh one of our was a sign off Cory back in September but he made the comment about are you starting to plan for NPC are you starting to present plan to present something to the npca about phase 1B in 2030 it's on the Forefront of their mind we've been telling them every you know the whole time we've been talking through a facility plan so I think it's something that we need to start talking about and um I know Joe did you have any kick off ideas or how do we where do we start with our phase one being now the plants in place yeah you know we have some um configurations and ideas in terms of you know we know how those areas are going to be served it was addressed within the facility plan to some extent um previously and let me pull the sheets i' have oh yeah yeah got a MTH these are a couple Pages out of the Feast of building talked about users and if you look at the um some of those at the top of the chart There's a summary of those different areas a d e h k p and M and some of these have been taken care of like um K has been taken care of this River Bend M has been taken care of with cedar Woodland Cedar Point two sisters those are taken care of um e all but one user has been taken care of e which is along West Center Street that was the opt in option for those folks right yes but there's a larger area of e there too that uh is not in to the West oh yeah yeah oh the yeah the blue e yeah maybe that's what e is talking about so I'm assuming that one property that decided not to opt in when that phase 1B is executed the option goes away right they they they would just automatically be part of the project so you know there area is a d e h and P really that need to be served again a d e h and p and p is currently in the township right but it's surrounded by city so at some point that Kath subdivision would have to be annexed into the city yes um and so we we know some information um you know part of the process you know one of the first steps is really advancing the project and getting on the project priority list you know so there's there's two k areas as well a larger red outlin and a smaller blue outline are both of those areas you mentioned both those are in they're both covered yes they're phas one the red K was Phase 1 a Riverwood Hills K blue was by petition okay same with M blue over by gas and go I think that there's a letter i over the Hamilton property so it's neither yeah but that's not something we need to serveice necessarily it was just uh well we know what happen but not part of our plan is there any value or opportunity to use some of those leftover engineering funds from this project to design or do some preliminary design for the next project um yeah there'd be great value basically it's a you know they're giving you money at 1% for 30 years um what's the worst that can happen they say no I guess it wouldn't hurt to ask project well it isn't it isn't it's it's not part of the phase 1A project and that's what know the loan dollars are really predicated on but I didn't think they would allow us to use the loan dollars for um River Benda States improvements and they did so all they can say is all they can say is no so that that's a good idea honestly I mean that would help out with some feasibility studies and soil borings or something maybe I don't know right well you know the process is really you know you probably want to get on the project party list and probably want to do a facility plan for that specific area that updates costs and um then it's a it's a matter of funding it looking for opportunities to fund it you know and there's there's lots of work in between now and then I mean we in order to score well on the project party list there's steps to take you know we we would want to yeah identify areas that are substandard and so like in the downtown area here the very first step we did back in 2013 was to apply for these Community assessment grants and evaluate on-site systems well I don't think we're going to find a lot of failing systems uh on the west side but we might in the cat area um I think uh you know just understanding what is there you know even in those Community Systems on the West Side some of them are 30 years old we don't know what condition they're in and doing some investigation in that and you know using that information to you know improve our project party list scoring makes sense so would it be appropriate to ask the authority who controls that money if that would be an appropriate use or a portion of it understanding that we still we don't want to spend a bunch of it on a bunch of predesigned work and then end up short on project management but I uh I think that that's a pretty good idea honestly now it' be good time for that cuz you know none of the projects have been closed out and we're in a in a favorable position in terms of our overall budget and you know I think the PCA wants to see those next phases implemented and maybe maybe you know like I said what's the worst that could happen if they just say no and then if they do say no then you you start to look for other funding sources maybe we we try to tap into that Community um small communities grant program again and see if we can do a small um commun assessment report to evaluate that and that'll help feed into our um application for the project party list and you know that's usually done in June or July I think isn't it the PPL is due the applications are due in March or April oh really the 2025 project PRI list came out today or there was an update yeah that was the final in uh intended use plan for 2025 the I not the P yeah so it's the second step of the PPL the IEP yeah the uh the general consensus among the folks I work with is not to expect any real changes in the way that some of those programs have been funded things like um you know the backlog of pro projects that have been approved but unfunded is probably going to grow the point source implementation grants not going to bulk those caps up at all um so the legislature kind of hurt the state and those programs badly because I've got communities that are on the on the iup for the clean water and drinking water revolving Loan Fund for 2025 they've got projects that are underd designed they will be built they should be funded through that program but there was no bonding Bill and so the state didn't push money through the bonding bill into that so they didn't get a federal match and now there's no money and so everybody that is on the I for those programs for next year it's just sorry there's no money and so that could have been us here and what would we you know that would have totally screwed us and there's cities that they're totally getting screwed and it's not their fault Ming deviled didn't didn't pass so I would expect there's going to be a lot of people trying to fight for whatever money sources of funding are available for that kind of stuff so getting started early is probably valuable yeah [Music] yeah well what you want to ask letter of support from us or whatever the case may be but we can sure provide whatever you need but yeah yeah I'll just kind of I'll put put it out there and if there is any interest maybe might take a council resolution or you know yeah that's letter from them before Jason and and the may you know might take some of that but I think it's a good idea that's could be couple hundred thousand well again you don't want somebody probably or argued well we could keep it on the I mean it's money we're going have to pay for it's just better Phase 1 a people paying on that loan to use that money for phase 1B it's just such a big Advantage when you know you're borrowing money at 1% over 30 years you just it's it's do that yeah I wish I could do that too well that's that's maybe the first thing to do is just see what kind of response you get and then go to plan B after that I guess so assess survey have any idea how much that would cost or what's that that assessment survey think we have to you know the the uh the Township area I you know I've never heard of I mean it's more from an npca to look at them versus annexing I I don't think they're excited about but or maybe they are I don't know but that's just I got the impression they weren't but well at some point um you know they're surrounded by City they utilize City Services they drive on city streets they go to City Parks they you know they should be annexed into the city in my opinion very legit okay all right last item um awareness in January we'll be taking a different approach of our water and SE never had bylaws and so that's one issue that we're going to approach and there's bylaws out there PNC has them Parks Trails have them and um so it's something that water and sewer we need to put together a couple things one is our a set of bylaws and with that bylaws um identify president vice president secretary with term limits or with terms L length of terms I guess I should say it's something we haven't done and it's something that really as a committee standing committee is something we should be looking at so that's going to be our emphasis in the January February time frame so so what I looked at I just went to looked at January of 2018 19 and kind of there were some maybe people that came in within that you have a better date of when you started but those are the dates that I saw I started out this committee back a couple years after I moved here and that was in 97 you've been here for a long time right just a little after joh long as I can remember yeah been on this forever 1997 actually official email voted on this committee January of 2018 is when I got voted on this on the sewer and water 18 or 19 18 18 okay what year did you say in in December 2017 emailed Sandy about joining this group and planning I was just looking at all my emails you want IDE uh this is as good as I I could probably figure it out closer but it's one I did this about five minutes till six so I did it really quick so I didn't spend a whole lot of time on Joe I thought was in February of 2020 I was in February 2015 John was April of 2024 so what we plan to do now um at this meeting um Paul has indicated that he is resigning from the committee due to business um travel in 2025 so um I make a motion we approve to council Paul Jan's resignation I don't want to say grudgingly but we sure do miss your input that's for sure I'll second we off you can get out you didn't know that huh no that's not how it works I didn't want to hurt you for Quorum next year so that's why so so what we plan to do in in uh January then is to um in our particular case we would now is there anybody else are you good for another year or so sure best Tuesday night of the month right here Ross you you've been on a long time but I've been around a while longer I got to get my water and sewer hooked up yet first so well give us some thought we'll come back first year and identify so what we'll be doing is we'll be posting on the city website openings in our water and sewer committee is is the plan so with that we also need to in January identify who we should continue with or who we should have as president vice president secretary and and the length of terms whether it's two years or you know be longer or less but that's get more feedback from Jason on that too but that's what we plan to do in January so tell you planning and zoning had threee terms for its committee members sorry for our bylaws planning and zoning was threeyear tournament that you two years is kind of short just because you have turnover and you finally get to know what you're doing so kind of want to have some you don't want to make it super long you're like you know Ross 1997 till now but but but you also don't want it too short yeah it's good balance and then you try to have staggered the other thing I'd recommend that you try to do is stagger it so you don't have all new people coming on at one time oh Ryland yes may of 2018 oh May 2018 thank [Music] you so like the Pres either one of the presidents 321 or one two3 or ideas just to Stagg all right so we'll post for two openings you let me know it was some thought but um I'll be around for a while yet who knows I might tip over next week so we can call in from heaven you know that's okay uh I don't know if I get time off talk to St Peter okay so we leave you on for now sure let me know let me know please all right all in favor Paul's resignation sign saying I I post leave us go right now yeah go go don't let the door slab you on the way out all right um I think that's it for the evening good meeting good discussion that I make a motion to meeting adjourn I'll second live thank you so 18 to 24 so six years right feel like yesterday doesn't it by times amazing how many n years yeah happens question on the property that you said was P that's not the cities you have to Annex it first you can do how what is the process of annexing into the city like what is that like how do you do that anation process yeah like do they get the vote on it like how does that work oh I think it's got to be a council action I I don't know it'd be a good question because they're not petitioning for annexation right it would be a we trying curious how does that work like we have orary annexation agreement that's between between the township and the city we've had that since 2015 okay comes up for a 10e review in 2025 originally was in 20 2009 I think is when it started so is it like a timed thing or is it just based on needs like when like in this case it's you said surrounded by there's no or if all four sides are touching you you have to anex there's nothing it's all up to the owner now we don't want the domain is the other off of way but that's not really we don't think about that but it's really a petition by the owner to join with them and I don't know if they have any type of HOA or in the township there it's all individual sewers but one common water system is it one common so if that water system I have issues or I thought there was multiple smaller systems there on the water side you think it's just one I'm pretty sure it's just one there's no shut offs so when they when it comes time for uh fixing a leak or repairing something they shut the well off everybody and they and they dig a a trench along the property until they find a water line and