e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e so you're live [Music] exra one missing and she had one for all of us just so you know this is my extra one one I had [Music] home I one with tab Gat Gator thing regular okay okay everybody ready yes sir let's go ahead the commission members Annie Davis Jeremy Davis Tom Dolan Teresa Jackson aler kitchens James Norwood Tiffany Parker blanders Lee Ryan Matt Schuler Audrey wise and Annie SLI alternate you're hereby notified that a special call meeting of the Paca Charter Review Committee is hereby called to be held on May 29th 2024 at 4M at the city hall Annex 2005 North 2 Street Paca Florida 32177 the purpose of the meeting is to review the city's Charter please govern yourselves accordingly CHL here chairperson Sunny CR is our city clerk We Now call this meeting to order roll call please thank you Miss hannie Davis pres Mr Jeremy Davis pres Mr Tom Dolan pres M Teresa Jackson is not present for the record miss aler kitens here Mr James Norwood Miss Tiffany Parker Flanders pres Miss Lee Ron present Mr Matt Schuler present Miss Audrey wise here Annie Vetti is not present for the record and chair T Hill here have for sir thank you now we're going to go through and we will have an introduction of each member uh what we want you to do is briefly introduce yourself give us a little bit of background information um so that we'll have an opportunity to at least know um who we're working with and use that as an opportunity as well for networking U so we will start um to my right we'll start with you Miss Davis I am Annie Davis uh born and raised in the beautiful PAC of Florida uh moved away and move back home happy to be here I'm retired but I have a part-time job at MST Church three days a week don't know how it happened but that's what I'm doing and I show up there three days a week um I think that's good I'm married I have three kids my the kids launch praise God and my husband and I runch uh Jeremy Davis I currently work at the St John's River Water Management District and the IT department I have a focus on like audio visual stuff uh also work at Grace Fellowship doing the same thing um before that I was at the putam County Sheriff's Office for about eight years as a deputy a dispatcher a bay I did a lot of stuff so uh I too was born and raised here in PAC I've been here 35 years about it I'm Dolan I am not a local I grew up in New Jersey I've been blacka for a couple of years I have business in St Augustine um really think blacka has a lot of potential I think the blight and the empty storefronts downtown are something that hopefully with the charter committee we might be able to help me move that along I'm Annie swake I've lived in PKA more than 20 years I um worked for the school system for many years I also worked for the city for a while and now I'm retired and busier as ever with volunte she a southern TW illegal Kit's born and raised in patka 36 years at the P County property PR's office nine years as a PL the City Commissioner uh since 1987 been a constant attendee at the city commission meeting paid or not uh on many many committees too many to mention mostly with the city one with the county the bond oversight committee with the Pu County School District and uh I am a very I don't want to say retired because I'm working now like Miss flick said harder now than when I was paid and I would love to be paid to work but pro bono um I'm terl Hill uh recently unemployed for about 16 months from my other job but I'm a practicing attorney uh here in Paca this year March 25 years B race here in Paca and we just want to continue to serve I'm James n uh born here in Paca over been here over 60 whatever years um I uh worked at Georgia Pacific I was the remember with the Environmental Group uh beer for 45 years uh served on the city commission for 17 years uh um just been involved in the community and just enjoy serving this community my name is Tiffany Parker Flanders I own a salon downtown I'm a hair stylist um my grandfather was a City Commissioner for the city of faka so I'm fairly um established here in the Paca area and uh I just want to see us grow um I'm Lee Ryan my husband and I own Smith products um it's been here for 1946 but um I'm not originally from here I'm married and moved here um but I just you know looking forward to the future black I has and I want to be part of it I'm Matt shuer I was not born here I was born in California I was a Navy brat growing up uh and we ended up Landing in Bost area and so in putam County I've been in the general area and involved in the pat area uh for about 30 non-consecutive years um I worked about just shy of 10 years with the county clerk's office and now I'm employed with the uh property priser office as a field Deputy um and I've just always watched all the commission meetings for the county and for the city and we apologize I Haven quite learned my lesson yet my name is audre wise I was born here I relocated to New Jersey I served in a capacity in New Jersey with a numerous Community um activities as well as served on numerous boards which consists of the planning and the zoning board as well as the historical uh Society I relocated and I feel as though the the desire and the need to use what I have learned to enhance the quality the life of everyone here in Pala and to see and be a part of it growing to what it can possibly be not that it's not good but it can be better anything can and uh I'm willing to share my knowledge and my service to the community with no other motives other than to be a servant thank you and also everyone else in the room announce themselves just so so we can make a record everyone of them Pastor mber all Sarah Daily News s gr city clerk Jane West City attorne also the folks in Zoom land see Mr Bale Chief Shaw assistant chief Nukem and Brett Dennis from the gas Authority and so um again I think there's a a resounding theme of B to see growth in PKA um seing great opportunity coming forward for those of you who've been here for a number of years who aren't necessarily A Paca natives once you drink the water that you are from Palaca officially um and so I you all have contributed in many ways and we're just excited to have this Collective group um to be able to start the next chapter of of how we move Paca forward so thank you everybody and for the next two years hopefully far less than two years and I saw Miss West looking like I'm thinking um that we hope that this process will be seamless and we can finish ahead of schedule by a year and a half and so um that's where we are at this point and so again thank you to everybody and since we have our chaplain here can you open us up with the word sir father again thank you for this day thank you for this opportunity to come together we thank you for this planning board we thank you for these members we thank you for their desires to move this city forward in Direction pray God that you would Crown their head wisdom understanding and all that's necessary to do that we give you praise and glory for all you've done it is in Jesus name we pray amen amen okay has everyone had an opportunity to review the minutes for my March 26 meeting if so I entertain a motion there a motion on Theo a second by Mr wise is there any further discussion question all in favor say I I oppos motion carries unanimously moving on to our general public comment general public comment there is no general public here so at this point we'll open up the public comment just in case comments will be Liv to three minutes no act will be taken on topic of discussion is there anyone here for general public comment see no one we'll close general public comment and move on to our regular business our regular business starts out with a general discussion um and our general discussion uh M West do you want to take that item give give an idea just of we we already had the deadlines um that we discussed at the the last meeting um hopefully you have all had an opportunity at this point to review the basic Charter Provisions um as you probably noted uh most of the charter the bulk of the charter consists of illegal description for the jurisdictional boundaries for the city of fla fortunately we do not have to touch that whatsoever um that can be modified uh by way of ordinance so you don't need to even pay a single lick of attention to all those meets and Bounds descriptions Hough Matt perhaps that um but the the provisions that we do want you to focus on are basically the the rest of the city Charter um and you know ch to defer to you on how you want to guide this discussion but one of the things that we had talked about previously is there there's a lot of substantive information out here and now that we've done these introductions we see that you bring a broad array of expertise and background um to this particular meeting and if there are particular issues that you want to focus in on um perhaps this would be a good idea to discuss the forming of subcommittees where you would report that um I will add that you are welcome to lean in to City staff but we also request that you venture outside uh of just this particular committee and City staff and if you can pull in some expertise from other areas uh that you're familiar with to come and make presentations meet with your subcommittees make presentations to the committee at large all of that is done by other Charter review committees throughout the State of Florida and be welcome you to do it as well I'll be here for any legal questions that you may have about the process but I'll defer to you chair on the substance on how you want to proce thank you um Mr Bill he told me he's having sound issues he's on his phone we're fine we we'll go ahead and move forward so moving into item 2B it's our confirmation of our Char review Focus you've got an overview that you just got from Council as it relates to what we're going to do uh overall as it pertains to where we are um with our Charter review process uh and one of the first things that we we think is a great consideration is the creation of subcommittees and so at this time we want to open up a conversation uh and and so the one of the purposes of creating the subcommittees is as you all know from our first meeting you're governed by sunshine and what Sunshine does it places limitations on our ability to be to communicate with one another because we're the recommending board to the commission um to take action and based on Florida Sunshine Law um in order for that to happen it has to be meetings that are done in the sunshine which means they're publicly noticed and it creates opportunity for others to be able to attend those meetings to hear the conversations but you have the ability to create small subgroups we're thinking three to four people in each subgroup and we can do that um in various capacities you can create smaller groups so that you can have breakout groups of sorts or we can have or we can create groups that that basically begin to take specific items um and address those if we find ourselves in a situation where we begin to have you know longer lengthy lengthier conversations that pertains to certain things that may be there let's just say for example it was the form of government we we want to have and we got varying views then it's an opportunity for us to break out into subgroups with people who have similar thought processes to be able to come back with recommendations versus someone else who think that the current form of government would be the best form so that's that's an example where we are so what are your thought processes thus far about subcommittees as an opportunity for us um within this within this Charter Review Committee can you indicate what we should be thinking of when we think of sub committees can you give a few examples so well so we can so so literally we can take a subcommittee and and each subcommittee can review article two for example and then we can come back with recommendations based upon each subcommittee's meeting on article two um you know or we can go in at there we find that there is a if we find that term limits for example maybe a conversation that comes up with everyone then we can have a subcommittee that specifically deals with language on terms and things of that nature bringing back recommendations to the committee and language or whatever the case may be or if there's an we find out there's a various item that's out there so right now in discussion the sky is the limit in so many ways on on how we we deal with it but we wanted to kind of get a general consensus of what the thoughts were M Davis and I'll come back to you and actually I'm sorry I'll go over here okay so we are a to suggest subcommittees because I was looking at article four um where we're talking about uh voting within the or elections within the city and there are no districts I would like to explore that further and I was just going to suggest yes to so is because we get more work done and can come back to the larger group and and I think a good uh delineation for each group is by article um depending on size you know we may have to combine or not I don't know but I see that we have believe there six well five but not count one but I'm just suggesting that is a good delation one second M K I see absolutely no reason to sub committees we can discuss everything needed right here and I think I'll defer to miss West on this even if we have subcommittees we're still government of the Sunshine Law we cannot talk to each other outside of the subcommittee meeting if we meet at our homes and talk about it then I think we're in trouble okay so I'm glad you brought up that point uh basically subcommittees if they are on a fact finding Mission only and they are acting in an advisory capacity they are not governed by C there are a few very very limited exceptions um obviously with a group like this you're making recommendations in an advisory capacity to the city commission um you are governed by Sunshine but if you do want to break out uh to two three as as the chair mentioned a very small group for fact finding purposes only and a report back to this General committee that would not be governed by S thank you further I would think that if we need fact finding that if we need something well we're not doing the legal description but for instance if we need the legal description we get the property praiser and to talk to us about legal descriptions and his the workers uh if we want to know about something to do with Finance we get the finance director and to talk to us or we could ask somebody like Jared dollar or some Finance person from the community that we want to have information on I don't see why I don't see the reason for breaking into subcommittees to discuss the little picky details and we can discuss this and we still have to discuss it even with the subcommittee is making recommendations we're still discussing it as a a total committee and to me it's just it's it's extra work and it's just duplicate I don't think I don't see any necessary reason for it at this point maybe in the future if we get bed down on something but right now I think if we once if we want information we ask the person to come and talk the whole committee so any responses to that or any and I'll come back to your question I want to make sure we stay on this topic then I go to you now if your topic is pertaining to to this piece then we'll say that so let me go here and I'll come back chair I concur with the subcommittees um I understand the concerns from our um sketch regarding that but I do believe if we decide to have the subcommittees earmark those items that we would bring to the subcommittee the the items of Interest like you had certain articles that were bought up those items can go into the subcommittees and come back to the body as a whole to go into the meeting take this for discussion and those broad items that require all of us in one spot deal with it accordingly I truly believe within that subcommittee we can get through this um in a way not in speed but to really dissect it by having a small committee and bringing other thoughts back to the committee for a discussion and for as the Sunshine Law we did get the legal um uh interpretation of it so I am in favor of that and extra work that's what I'm here for um I I don't disagree with subcommittees I just think it might be a little premature right now um I don't know how many people have read through the whole Charter I I can't I don't know where article four is Stephanie see one and two it's not your pack the last pack so what you have in this package to I think if if you went to your original material you got the entire Charter but in the packet that you have today for discussion purposes we only addressing articles one and two so so we only have articles one and two in your packets today if you have your original package then you have the entire Charter there okay um but I just don't know if we are at the position where we need to break out into subcommittees yet because limited amount of discussions we've had on our I go to miss back here yeah and with and my my um thinking with subcommittees is the fact that this is our second meeting and we're still asking question as anyone read and we got the information early enough and time goes on and I'm not saying everybody works at a different pace but to that point this document in in my mind breaking out into sub groups to do the work and dive into the details of it and yes we will AB I I believe it makes a more efficient larger group meeting um personally because if I'm going to focus here how do we know when and where we want to have someone to come and provide additional information I think we can go into subgroups come back present some findings even if it's even an overview of an article and potential issues we can decide what the group will come back with for the initial meeting whether it's a summary potential issues and the we have some suggestions that we've received that we want to consider when we're looking at that and then as a group decide where we go so centralized decentralized centralized decentralized ageo question in all businesses do you centralize decentralize which ones affected that's my framework I have another question for the City attorney then a comment uh Miss West what we do we are a public meeting our meetings are open to the public they're recorded the subcommittee the P the public shouldn't they have the same opportunity to talk to the subcommittee or is that a secret meeting so to speak private meeting it can be a private meeting because it wouldn't be bound by Sunshine again it is a fact I wasn't think about sunshine but yeah okay okay and the other thing is if and I don't know how to put this in words exactly but each of usig each of us each of us have ideas uh some of us like we three up here Norwood here Hill and I we were on the city commission uh so we know what works and what doesn't work we know what's good and not good but all of us together bring in various areas of expertise from bureaucracies to uh various uh forms areas of government uh various interests so to have two or three of us break off and have a meeting separately and then come back and bring the same information to the other nine of us and we're all going to discuss the same thing it just seems to me it just seems like and when I say extra work I don't care if we work 24 hours a day seven days a week that's not what I'm talking about I'm talking about duplication of work but I anyway I I just don't think it's necessary but I would go with Mr Dolan at this point I don't think we need to create committees but it's it's good to talk about them and see if we do need to create them and if the vote is to is to create them then let's we'll figure out next time what committees we need how many we need and all that kind of stuff well I'll say it like this kitchen um I saying that said better to have not needed needed not have it I think if you have the ability to have your subcommittees we haven't said exactly at this point how the subcommittees work we may find that it's more efficient for us to have three or four people in a subcommittee and all in each and we break this out into three different committees and so we have three small groups of fact sers and each group has a mission of let's just say article forces that was example we used earlier we all go through and break down article four when we come back we report as committees as to what our thoughts were as to what the pertinent issues were in article four what were the areas of change so now as opposed to having 14 people give a conversation as it pertains to Article 4 the fact finding aspect of it is if we need to go talk to property appraiser and that was something that your subcommittee did then you can bring back the perent information when the issue become comes in place as opposed to us bogging staff down in a lot of ways with with that task because no one's going to know better how to ask your question than you and so and then when the committee reports back you got an opportunity to do that we may find that the opportunity for the Committees to really break out and do some of the stuff doesn't exist but I think if we have that option then it gives us the ability to move forward um and I don't want to be a dead horse at this point um at this time if there aren't there there any more questions or comments as it relates to the issue of subcommittees before we move the agenda yeah I have one more one okay and you're up your will after your fourth comment we're going to stop yeah if I look through this and I would be on the subcommission I wouldn't even know what kind of questions do ask nobody knows right now because we're still starting we're fresh okay it's a clean slate so okay so that's the that's the thing once yeah so so I agree with this gentleman that we start the subc commissions if it really is coming up you know so we're all starting with a clean slate yeah and what we're doing at this point we're going to we're going to make the overall assumption everybody here is going to work and do their homework and read and do all those things and then it's just a matter of making sure that we have information that's necessary to move forward Miss K I have no particular problem with what you just said about committees prior to miss Flick's comment uh however I would say this if subcommittee gets a report and I use the property phaser simply because and he won't be here because we're not dealing with legal descriptions but just as an example if we if we get a bookkeeper or a or the property appraiser or a state senator whoever the subcommittee talks to I respect the subcommittee but I want to hear with my own two ears what the person says because if three people see an auto accident three people are going to report it differently so I want to know and I don't mind that the subcommittee is getting the report but I also want the person to to address us okay any other comments at this time I concur with Mr okay and so here we are we goad U commissioner nor call thanes great but uh I think that we have the opportunity to actually look at the charter itself we know and us three have had the opportunity to work within the charter um that's basically our responsibility but I think we also have the opportunity to start going through the charter and then there going to be different subject matters that come up that we're going to have questions about I think one of the things that I agree with I agree with having the opportunity to break it out into subcommittees uh but [Music] to and and I think we we should I'm in favor either way but I think personally I believe that we probably should be uh uh to start going through the chter and that run into issues or run into uh subject matters that uh that we why we need more information on I think then we probably need to break out into a subcommittee for that particular subject matter M can you share yeah um one idea that I would recommend to to this committee is that if you do break out in subcommittees file minutes the clerk and the clerk can transmit those minutes to the other board members that way in the event you met with someone who has expertise and Miss kitchens use the property praiser as a person with expertise so maybe you met with property praiser come back file minutes with me and I can assonate them to the board then you have to verify and you would also have a record showing that you only participated in fact finding activities rather than making recommendations soorry I see a not well I think we definitely committees definitely have to have minutes that's vital and I agree with that 100% and I but I like what Mr Norwood said uh that we start going through the charter and as we find and we will find things that need further examination I'm sure we will uh because very few of us with maybe three exceptions up here are familiar with the charter uh so I think as as we go through like say we do article one paragraph one or whatever we see something that needs further discussion so then we we get people to volunteer or appoint a subcommittee for that item we need further information of then we go down a little bit further down we find something uh when we get to item four which is probably two meetings from now if we think that needs further discussion or further uh clarification then we get a subcommittee to look at elections meet with the supervisor of elections and find out what the state law is the county law and all that kind of stuff and then bring the information back to us I think that's a splendid idea to go through it and as we find the need for a subcommittee then appoint them and that way I would have no major objection okay and one other thing that I mention this probably doesn't need to be said but I'm say it anyway because I think it's going to have to be said at some point you know because I there's some strong opinions in here in this room uh only thing subcommittees are going to be doing is making recommendations back by the board so you know so if you if you're on a subcommittee and your recommendation is not accepted yeah the board still has the responsibility of making recommendation to the commission and and the subcommittee doesn't stimle the voice of anybody in that committee that may disagree with the masses right there you know their their opinion can still be brought forth in the in the in the coming meeting as well so if there are points of contention we expect that to be raised in your report um so at this time Iain a motion as it pertains to uh the ability for this board to use subcommittees as um as a part of of the work product I move that we do uh create subcommittees as they are needed uh as we go through the charter each item line by line sentence by sentence word by word as we find the need for a charter I mean for a subcommittee then we create them so I agree with create them as needed as we go through the charter so there motion on the floor to use subcommittees as needed that's one of the tools for this committee is there a second second there's a motion on floor in a second is there any further discussion on this motion all in favor say I I oppos motion carries unanimously okay oppose you're oppos yes and I'm going to ask for some consideration so some people may know par the procedure some people may not however when discussion is called I know we already had it I need some help I'm asking for some hesitation between you call for the question that's all even though we had discussion before but people are still required because there was no discussion post motion if that's my request if I might make a suggestion help a that no fine I got I got just just forward I I got it but but I did not uh vote Yes so it's not if you think you're going to have a discussion why don't you just say wait for clarity Miss Davis and Miss Wise desending my motion carries might we know why you are they have so so at this point so at this point just for the sake of if there's any other motions that you that we have at this time as it pertains to the matter of so subcommittees at this time you have an opportunity to raise that motion to be included I motion the chair chair I make a motion that the subcommittees would be put in place and when needed they will be adhered to not wait until we go through the entire thing but to have them in place if in we might need it they will be there that is my motion I we have a motion on the floor is there a second is there a second as it pertains to this motion seen that motion dies for like a second Mr B U just I don't know if it was missed but perhaps if we make sure we call for an affirmative vote a negative vote so this way the two books don't get missed I did I said all in favor again I said I wasn't sure if I I'm just I'm just clarifying for the record I said all in favor and then I said AOS and those that's typically the way I'll do it I'll say all in favor and then when I say oppose and that gives the opportunity for someone else so that we all are familiar with where we are when the motion comes in and I acknowledge the second I will then say is is there any discussion so at that point if you have discussion please speak up because if you don't speak up I will continue with the book Mr chairman yes ma'am might I suggest like uh Miss Davis said sometimes somebody think she thought she wanted to say something but she didn't so if she thought if you think you wanted to say something maybe just say I have a question and then if you don't then you can always say you don't but at least that would give you an opportunity to discuss before the final vote is that a good suggestion I can say this typically when the course is called for if you wait a few minutes and nobody has anything you don't have to call for a question that well that's never been my experience but if that that's fine I I now know I will speak faster yes sir Miss Miss Davis you could have you do have an opportunity to say un do know I'm very familiar I'm just agree I'm good I'm good I will slow down no you don't have to slow down and calling for I will I'll slow down cuz I go fast I will be the first to tell you I go fast and I'll slow down too I appreciate it I go fast all day and all night what we're asking is not I go fast you'll love me at 7even youat o' meeting at 7 o' you'll be like I'm glad right so but I also try to take as much opportunity as I can for a s discussions throughout the process okay so now that we've talked about subcommittees we will now move into is there any more motions ra to subcommittees at this time okay next up our timeline Miss CR um on H I believe it's nine of the agenda packet we'll see a familiar slide to all of you that says important deadlines these are the deadlines from um Miss West's presentation um if we had formed subcommittees um no we didn't but if we had this would have been very important because you would have had to have given your subcommittee a date to report back to you so when those are subcommittees are created just kind of keeping your your deadlines in mind because ultimately we have to take everything back to the commission by a certain date any questions moving the agenda forward recommendations regarding Charter article one and two so again as relates to to article one article one is in your packet it's marked Article One deals specifically with our meets and Bs so and so again and and just to reiterate what council said it can be done by ordinance U so all our annexations and resoning are done through ordinance and that's the way we we deal specifically with that any questions as it pertains to what you've read in article one no question but I'd like a comment yes ma'am because I did work as a deep worker for 36 years in the property president's office and I dealt with a lot of meets and Bounds a huge Miller turpentine uh d came through and working with Guaranty Title and me it took us three months to go through the legal description it wasn't near as long as this there's 82 pages of legal description I counted them last night maybe a couple more I'm going oh my Lord I could go through this and check it item by item and it would take me probably three years so this is I'm glad Miss West recommended we leave it be done by ordinance it's not my recommendation State yeah I'm glad because you know about buying off more you can shoe that would get you miss the comment that's all okay so no com no other any other comments from article well I just have a question about this does this ever change or is this kind of SE it changes regularly through annexations and rezoning U so as we Annex property in it meets and balance change and so you're so it's an Ever moving document to like for I think that's the easiest way to describe it the so at this point oh okay so at this point with no recommendations for article one um I'll entertain a motion to article one as it is approve second article one as written it's a motion on the floor Mr Norwood second by Davis any unreadiness at this point any discussion seeing all in favor say I I oppose same sign passage unanimously mayor Hill just for the sake of everyone we've tabbed um page 142 which begins um from article two okay moving in article two um Mr I think for the sake of everyone in doomland who may come on board with us are you able to share it turn your screen um I would I can but it'll take me just a second I'm not connected it's all okay I big do you guys want it article start with article two article two starts out with the city manager plan uh commission manager plan uh commission's created members the terms of office of election U and so it tells us that we're going to have a five member commission okay so as we go through article two anyone have any questions or suggestions as it relates to having a five member commission and what the composition is what does it based on it's if you look at section 21 that we have up here we got a five member the commission is composed of five persons who are elected at large one of whom shall be the mayor so you have five Commissioners and the mayor in that five is a mayor commissioner that is the form of government that we have um where the city manager handles day-to-day operation and so said commission and mayor she'll hold office beginning the first Monday in January next after the election is here in provided and then it talks about the election year 1947 as to the number of Commissioners five is very typical in the State of Florida for this size of a population post be this size it can vary from seven to n but five is the most typ difficult for population so uh apparently a lot of people want to see grow so if you grow a lot then you might add another suit commissioner or two so so to give you examples uh dat only has seven most communities have five throughout the state of Florida Jacksonville has 19 wow so um and so five is a common theme throughout the state there are some smaller communities that have seven um but I think in most cases you know five is what you're going to see the masses throughout the flto cities in particular that's what they have um so miss kitens uh yes five is a very workable number for any committee or group when it gets larger than that it becomes rather unwieldy this is no C no aspiration on this uh Charter commission but the more people you get in it the harder it is to get things done uh the city commission prior to 1923 probably had more Commissioners and in 1923 they decided to do this form of government which is absolutely the best form of government for a city commission and it is the majority City commission form of government all through the state and our our Charter has been updated it's recent is a couple of years ago just hasn't gone through word for word but I think we have a very good form of commission and I think the city manager commission is good that means we have a city commission and then the manager runs a city for the Commissioners so the commissions don't have to micromanage or they're not supposed to micromanage rather uh the various departments in the city that's the city manager runs the Departments the city commission it can deal with the laws and passing laws and that type of stuff uh as far as the mayor commissioner goes that's a splendid idea you definitely don't want a Comm a mayor separate from the commission because then you run the chance for having a dictatorial type thing or some it's just not good and if you want to see how bad a multi huge commission is look at duall County I so y'all watch the news look at duall County I think we're very good with the commissioner mayor former commissioner manager mayor commissioner and I think it should stay this way it's worked old say it ain't broke don't fix it it works and if we get 50,000 people black it's still going to work uh it's not the number of people it's the quality that you have if you get a bunch of anyway I think I think we're fine with this and in my opinion we can move on to whatever the next issue is okay commission I'm Mr chair one of the things that I believe that we have the opportunity to do is to explore all of our options and uh and there are I think what two maybe three forms of government out there and I think if we even if we explored the strong May option uh it would give us a track record B at least looking at it and saying that this is how we arrived at the uh uh this is how we arrived at the decision we made to go back with the city uh uh the Cent the current phone with the city manager and the uh and the commission Mr chairman I'll go M first I'll come back to you yes I agree so one of the things I want to say and that I personally appreciate is the experience of the former commission and the for what I am going to ask and to continue giving us the history so we do understand but to Mr Norwood's Point Let's understand other options to say because we're here to vet and to show that continuously this is the best form of government for our city so so and so go to miss kitens but as we as as I transition to miss kitens I want you also to reflect back on Miss West's presentation when we initially started where she talked about the various forms you have the presentation in your in inside of your package your initial package which kind of gives you the various forms and then I'll have Miss West expound just a little bit if you don't mind on the various forms and some of the hybrids and then I will share some ex what those are Miss kchen oh yes I all I wanted to reiterate was perhaps we need to get Miss tempton from the league of cities to come back and do the presentation again explaining explain about the various forms of city government which ones were affected which ones weren't which ones weren't for our size of the city so anybody that missed that or wasn't paying attention maybe she can come back and explain it but I think she at the end she said that we have the option we have the option to go to do something wrong right and I don't I don't I'm not advocating we chain I don't think I'm I'm advocating that we just take a look at it and see she gave us an overview of what anywh here somebody can go watch on YouTube right press play again yeah so so the question at this point for everyone is so so that we can refresh your recollection just a little more um Miss CR is going to pull up that piece of the slot of that presentation so you'll have that is there anyone else who has any conversation as it relates to the form of government and the composition of the commission at this point Mr do I have a question just about and it's probably going to come up throughout all the different sections but the laws that are cited at the bottom yes is there anything to and probably M West is have stat um for all the different statutes is there a way to vet ones that are no longer active in the state I'm sorry um sorry people um so to answer Mr Dolan's question when you look at the city's um Charter when it says laws of Florida Chapter that is the city's original charter right and as you progress Through The Years you can see every single time that section of Charter was amended perfect thank you so that's just a a background thanks I have a question I thought that the charter was not reviewed for about 100 years it has not been completely Rewritten for 100 years if you look I'm sorry if this is to TMI but if you look back at the original section of article one you'll see in section one that the existing municip IP ality of the city of Paka and the county of putam State of Florida B and is hereby abolished the reason why that was done in 19 23 was because it was found that the charter of 1887 was illegal so they literally the charter Review Committee at the time and you may recall I I brought out the book to show you guys because it was found to be illegal they literally had as a committee to make a recommendation to completely scratch the Old Charter and they started from scratch so all really it's I believe every single section of the charter will say it began with the charter of 1923 and when you guys just just to give you guys a historic moment that you may have not realized you just did when you just approved article one of the charter you were agreeing that you're not scrapping this Charter you are moving forward and just amending portions of this Charter and also if you look at section 21 that we're on right now you'll see references to 2005 and 2008 so it kind of gives you that update yes ma'am Mr I just want to point a clarification to the point I just made I'm not saying in the moment that we're reviewing the chter read these things maybe I should say drop a pen and maybe that's individual homework to go back and see if you want to understand and see if you want to introduce revisting something I'm not saying every time we bring something up but maybe that's drop a pin and that may be something you want to look at I I just want to be clear it was that's understood from everybody I think I think your point was made talked about making stuff no one of the things that one of the reasons we're bringing this up is so everyone will have their memory refreshed yes and then if there's there's a need for additional dialogue as it pertains to that aspect we'll go through it a general question Miss West Miss West off hand do we happen to know I know we brought up earlier about the number of Commissioners and the uh do we have to know a a General populace range for uh five or is that g is that covered in the presentation the for of cities does have data along those lines that part of it was in ly Tipton's umk you can you enlarge it yeah thank you the reason why I asked that is actually is perhaps we may want to consider something along the lines of uh uh including including something in their Charter to say that whenever the City's population grows to x amount of uh of people then the commission can can change to maybe add an additional commissioner and then the mayor would be there just to settlement ties or something something something along those I'm necessarily have that specific one of the things in our in our scope of work we're going to do is set a time to have the charter reviewed on a timely basis and I think that would cover C it every 5 10 15 whatever years we decide all we decide needs to be able R VI that we cover it so and and and and I guess one of the things when you leave a contingency in place is used is it always becomes subject to interpretation and so that's where some of the issues come in so a good way to deal with a lot of it is to make sure that in order to change certain aspects um you or you don't want to necessar have the target point that you have before and kind of be playing out you want to make sure that you at least say if this is going if this happens then we'll go back and reates the will of the people and then you're and then at that point it can be done through referendum as it relates because you've got cities with hundreds of thousands of people that will have a five person commission um and you have you got cities that were the resounding most people in the State of Florida have gone to a commission manager St governmenta was one of the earliest forms of that government but you will see places like we has a strong mayor and and so and although you usually see that in like your 10 most populous communities uh you will see smaller communities that have hybrids of of that or you'll have some folks that will have a mayor protim they'll have a mayor and a mayor Pro Tim and you got some cities that would even have an elected clerk when we start going through other stuff and so those are the various things that are out there if you look at this the screen right now then you will see uh examples of communities and the forms of governments that they have with their population beside it Mr Mayor by some history in the 20s FL had a population of over 14,000 it's right it's been as high as over 14,000 it's been as low as under 9,000 so I think the fact that the charter will be reviewed on a regular basis now will catch any fluctuation if it's needed and we'd have to have like 50 or 60 or 100,000 to need more Commissioners but I think based on our past history pacus uh Paca population fluctuates so I think the fact that we're going to look at changing reviewing the chart on a regular basis now instead of waiting like 20 odd years or whatever I think that will catch it but I also think that it's where we are that if you have a suggestion just bring it forth and it's something we can all talk about we're just I'm just one opinion at this point anyway else have any opinions as it relates to Mr Schuler's suggestion any other thoughts or comments as it relates to where we are um counselor if you want to chime in on the forms of government or if you think we started I mean uh I would encourage you if you have questions about this to review the of leer City's presentation uh you do have two basic forms of government the the commission form where basically the there is no C know the Commissioners actively engage in the daytoday operations of the city um so they deal with HR they deal with Finance um and there there is no one person that is tasked with managing all of those administrative components um by contrast there is the commission manager form of government which we have here in Paka where we hire a city manager who is if you look at the city of pac's organizational chart all the department heads report up the chain to the city manager and then city manager the the commissioner rely on the city manager to administer the day-to-day operations of the city the commission manager form of government is a very effective and recommended by the I I guess by I guess as a I guess in a poll of sorts Who U has are there any thoughts on whether we should explore other forms of government is there anyone who thinks that who believes that we need to explore other forms of government and report back I don't think we need to if you think about it for one sec well for three seconds you got five Commissioners all of them are hold down fulltime jobs the city commission business is not their top priority as one of them stated I had an important meeting to go to when you left the commission meeting and you want all five people how would any five bosses can you imagine having to get five people to tell the city streets people when they can close the street to tell the uh the uh the city planning director they they have to check with five individuals separately can't check with them together that's Sunshine Law and that would be that's like having five bosses the old thing twoo many cooks spoil AB broth we got a perfect form of government it's worked in other cities we were the first city that ENT entered produ this uh but it's a it's perfect you got the city manager reports to the commission if they have a problem they clean his clock about it works very well so what form of government gives five people that vote commission the commission the commission form no no I think what she said question I have a question how many people is needed for a quum with the commission majority three give okay so no matter and if would have like six Commissioners or seven you need problem even number okay actually it would be nice you TI every time yes sir I kind of agree with Miss kitens um that I can't imagine what the transition to implementing that form of government would take because now we have commissioner with unexpired terms that they have to roll out the mayor's term has to roll out then we have to figure out how to implement a brand new I just I I think there's valid uses for the other commissions but kind of if it ain't broke don't fix it this seems to work for pactic 20s through the chair I think this discussion is very enlightening um I feel as though with our Menace that's going to be taken by my secretary with the discussion that we just had will let the residents of this city know that we have discussed alternate other means of government and that if and when the situation changes in the view of our next review of the our Charter it can be Revisited and look back on our discussion and see what our mindset was what our intent was so the constituents of this town will be relieved or want to change it in a later dat um you discuss the third Point government yeah I think that we need to make sure that we go through all forms of government as a discussion I do just what she said so when the citizens would know that we look at all of them form the third form is the strong men one more go me I mean yeah uh if the if Council can give us y oh sure so basically your mayor is making all and will as a great example um mayor Jamie Watts makes all the administrative decisions now keep in mind Waka is a significantly smaller population base um and also significantly smaller in terms of its geographical jurisdictional boundaries but that that is another option but also you also will have the mayor will also well you will have it's a strong mayor uh Council uh city council former government where the mayor will have VTO as well as the council will have VTO Powers as well I mean I think we should talk about all of those things so that uh the uh our citizens would know that we looked at every area and this is the best form of government for black so that's all that's all I want so you also have a I want to show that track record you also have a hybrid which where you'll have a commission of five you'll have a mayor who sits in a in he who sits in a day-to-day operational type he he has really joint he's got joint powers where he works as part of the executive uh but he doesn't have voting power unless there's unless it's necessary in a as a tiebreaker right and did you still have managers that operate in some of those functions in the same in those same capacities and so you'll end up with a system looks very much like ours where you give enhanced powers to a mayor who sits basically as a bridge between day-to-day operations and so that's one of the things that you have so miss kitens and you see that nework cities I would go back to what I said previously about our current commission if you have a strong mayor who's going to be running everything that mayor must be a mayor and not hold down another full-time job I have observed the city commission personally on a personal level since 1987 due to something that happened to me that I was not aware of because I was too stupid to go and look at it in person uh from that time on I I watch the city commission uh and everything has worked very good with the city commission but in all those years I'm not bragging I'm not saying who or what in all those years I've only seen one commissioner who made the city commission their top priority and did not hold down another job while they were commissioner uh there there's been some Commissioners that that had full-time jobs and they they made the commission more or less their priority that's not the case now uh and you've got to have you don't want a boss so to speak that's got another job and in patka it's almost impossible to find someone who doesn't have to work to be an elected official U but also I think we have even because we're doing the charter review right so if we decided we want to look at a strong mayor and whatnot we can actually put those requirements in to where he would have he could have no other job uh but the mayor's job as well I think we have an opportunity to actually just bet all of this out and once we bet it come back and come back with a recommendation to the uh if we break out in the subcommittee and do it great but if we do it as a group as a whole we can come back and make that recommendation back to the commission that this is the same one we're want just one second Mr Bell has it has his hand raised yes are you able to hear me okay Mr Mayor yes we can hear you okay so the difference that I as I understand it sitting on the I committee that uh promulgates the council manager former government or commission manager former government across the country the difference between uh the three forms of government that you've mentioned is where the executive Authority lies one does the executive Authority lie with the mayor as the chief administrative officer does it lie with the commission as a commission former government or does it lie with the manager as an appointee of the commission so that that's really the factor that distinguishes the three different types of government and and in each of those you have to make a determination of how much you want to compensate if the mayor if it's a strong mayor and the executive Authority lies there then it's a typically a full-time job if it's a commission run form of government where the commission shares the executive responsibility then they are compensated accordingly as either full-time positions or uh more than um a side job it's a part-time position or three quar time tradition or if it resides with the uh the manager and the council manager former government so the compensation is going to be different based on where the executive Authority lies in each of those situations and of course in each of those situations you have variations like with the commissioner uh manager form of government you could have a direct elected mayor or you could have the mayor be selected from those Commissioners that are are elected as a chairperson of the commission so those are obviously different variations on the same thing and then those and when typically when selected they serve for one year terms or one or two year terms and then it rotates or they're reelected kind of like what the County Commission does here locally so the same way in some communities the same way that the chair of the County Commission is selected from his peers uh on an annual basis as some communities do that with their mayor pain city is a good example of that and so they've had years that for continuous uh for ninee terms and longer but they every year they have to be selected as chair yes ma'am that's correct I agree uh with a little bit of what Mr Norwood said however you got the same problem if you have a commissioner okay write it into the charter that the Comm that the mayor has to have that's their only job no other job then that should be the way with all the Commissioners that's going to be problematic because everybody in pacco works at one or the other and getting somebody that doesn't work full-time or even part-time to be a full-time commissioner or a mayor is going to be a financial nightmare for the city we can't afford to pay that much money to them and then you're not going to find somebody that can do that we the former government we have now is good we need to stay with it I will stand by that you are lot to people I think who agree with you my question would be to City Lake PL smaller cities that use these other venues what kind of stff do they have because we have pretty large staff in the city of black so could one person manage all those department heads while being mayor that's kind of my question to the group is would that be too much for a particular person if we're using I I think it it happens no differently than it does with a manager but that person has to be committed part full time to it because if you you know if you're trying to do it part time it's not going to work but it's not going to be a S Pen for and I think I think that's the point that was being made earlier is there an appetite for statistics is it what go ahead um just I did some quick counting of the 411 cities within the State of Florida 275 are city manager forms of government 54 are strong mayor forms of government and of course I could do more statistic accounts about week mayor and council president but that's good and and and those from M they're probably from larger cities right um I can show you guys the stop if you allow me that's all I wanted is have that discussion this kitchen you go ahead if you want to see how well and I use that sarcastically if you didn't catch it a mayor strong mayor for of government works read the newspaper articles about W talk to the W citizens how much they like it I know that's all I have to say on that right now I don't like name you're being typically it's larger cities or counties Miss typically it's large or very small to use so miss kitens is aggressive and and that's just that's just so so just as a point of information that's just how she talks I I sat on the so that for I think there's sometimes a personality check that has to be done so we've sat on board she's passionate but I I don't think she in no way means any harm by you just got to once you're hit her for next two years you'll realize that but she's just she's going to be passionate I like to say I love the passion it's wonderful but can we stop repeating the same things over and over again I mean we've been here an hour and got nothing accomplished we're halfway through the agenda yeah we'll get trust me we won't be long I have a question though if I name Mr chair are we also going to discuss a term limits we are going to get to that oh so and and and I'm intentionally doing this for right now so you can go through this so let's go Miss Miss CR thanks um and this is a really really large spreadsheet with a lot of data but to to summarize what I filtered it down to I filtered it down to the form of government with Council strong mayor as you can see you know population's like 108 137 you kind of work your way up to you know a few in the three 4,000 range and then you start getting back to 112,000 to 120 so it's typically a little small or really big based upon the that provided by FL Le aties thank you okay so we have we've got information that we have we've had a discussion as it pertains to the form of government at this point um and we've had a suggestion um about looking at various forms of government is there any consideration for that or is there and if there's not then we'll move the agenda everyone okay with the current former government yes i' like to make a motion yes sir um approve continuing to use the commission city manager form of government the city of black second second motion FL second is there any discussion yes commissioner this is what I this is actually what I wanted I wanted us to have have a discussion and bring it to a vote and that way we would know how why we arrived and how we arrived at the motion that we actually arrived at so uh that's all I want to say St I like to motion to also in we continue with person well I my motion was to continue as existing the motion is to continue with the current form of government as well as the current number of members is there question so there's so at this point question is being called before we do that is there any further discussion seeing none all in favor say I I oos motion carries unanimously now moving on to Mr chairman yes sir can we have the record reflect that there was a robust conversation concerning the different forms of government if you speak to miss CR we can yeah over so she is she is documented the entire conversation sir great thank you moving on to moving on to the next part of section 21 when we talk about elections and we're talking about terms so there an article in section 21 it talks about our terms the terms of the terms changed significantly uh in the last few years we went to elections every even year every two years dur an even number of years before you would have elections annually um and you had staggered terms so now we're back to every two years your Commissioners are your Commissioners and your commissioner are elected on two elected for four years there are no term limits so you can run in perpetuity Miss Brown was here for 36 years for example uh uh both of the people to either side of me serve for approximately a decade plus and I serve two terms so any conversation as it relates to the first election cycle let's talk about election do we want any conversation about the fouryear terms that currently exist I have a question so as I'm reading this I want to make sure I understand the election cycle so in 2024 I know we're electing commission groups one and three is that a true statement so what we have is you've got three you got three Commissioners who are elected during midterm midterm elections and then you've got two you got two commiss who are elected during presidential years that's probably the simplest way to explain it yes okay I don't need to say what correct so I want to make sure I understand so if elections are every two years and four years oh I every so that staggers it so that you it stagers it so that you so that you never end up in in in that position where it turns around any comments concerns or questions as it pertains to I I didn't have one comment maybe question the paragraph above um so after the election regular after the regular election held in 2005 what why is that paragraph necessary because it seems like we've sort of Chang Chang Chang a lot to 205 changed the reason of that is in uh I think it was in 2004 the city voted to have their elections held at the same time as the County elections because it cost extra money to have the city to pay for an extra election and because of they they had to fit with this County election so that gave an extra year and that's why that that sentence was necessary why you see the threee ter yeah okay and after thats most most Community seeing ele Mr chair yes sir uh it appears that based on the way that it's set up now um you would always have the maral election on an off Year from the uh presidential election that's the midterm coming so the midterm so the midterm election has three Commissioners um who are engaged in that in in those elections so you've got your even number Commissioners um and then that's the way it works and can I ask one and three in this cyle only two who which seat one and three right and it's then it's two4 in mayor two during midterm and we kind of left that uh the mayor with those two Commissioners just to encourage V to turn out dur the the midm midm and you got good continuity that way you don't have an EMP commission right exactly it works can I ask a question are we going to discuss also the limits how many times can run right yes I so so so first of all as it relates to our current form any concerns with where we are as far as the election Cycles Mr um chair I move that we continue with the current second motion for second is there any un readiness seeing none question call all in favor say I oppos motion carries yes sir Mr B uh just one consideration you may end up because uh of the two that are elected consistent with the presidential election you may end up with the current setup and I'm not advocating one or the other but just for consideration purposes where you have Council persons who have a greater turnout during a presid presidential election and actually are elected by a greater number of people than uh in the meral election we have that so it's not a ma I so thank you yes ma'am I would like to Simply make the comment to address Mr Bill who appears to be another member of our commission here and yes I attack it that's what I am I like think I'm a sty but the mayor said I'm ex- mayor said I'm so I don't care that's me um shoot I forgot on anyway yes we address that and uh given the turnout in putner County and in the whole United States there's a few more people turn out to vote in the in the presidential election that's true but if you look at how many vote in the city election at the same time it's still disal so it doesn't really make any difference you have in the last two City elections you had 4,661 registered City voters who did not vote so it does it that barely changes when the presidential election comes along they'll vote with President they won't vote for City Commissioner so that's moot may I get some guidance on whether or not the committee would like to direct St to clean up the language given that you have a lot of language that kind of accounts the history it doesn't really language has some some contradictory aspect to it so I'll take a stab by can we do that by consensus but Mr Mayor I think we need to make sure that we keep a copy of this in archives she'll actually miss W will actually bring us back the recommended language for approval and so if we can you want to we'll do that for the next meeting and I'd like to see the history kit but just clean it up that's why I said let's put that in in our okay let's put it in the minutes term limits so right now there are no term limits y any thoughts on term limits Miss K let you start out I am very very very conflicted on term limits they talked about Congress we got it for the president I'm not necessarily sure that we need it for the president of the United States that I've never decided on that uh on the one hand you get people in and let's talk get Commissioners the first two years you're in Comm in the commission you know nothing basically it takes you a while to learn a little bit so I think once you get a commissioner on there that learns if they're a good Comm you need to keep them however it's a a bad commissioner you need to get rid of them but they're up for election every four years so why do you need term Li if the public wants them to go back in good bad or and different let the it's the voice of the people should be heard if they want to vote them back in fine if they don't want to vote them back in they want to vote them out so I say no term limits on the city commission any other conversation on term limits I believe term there should be term limits on two terms yeah I I just think for for change of new ideas and new minds I I understand longevity and length of service and it has immense valuable contributions to the community but just because you're not on a board anymore doesn't mean you have to stop contributing there's also ways to continue once You're Not Elected position and I I just think that term limits have a uh a purpose um Mr chair I would like to get from you um the three of your experience and I am I concur with what Miss kitchen and the reason is because there needs to be some level of continuity without again election speaked but when laws are enacted and it goes to the staff to implement what is that typical lag period And the reason I'm asking asking the question is because and it it may be more than 40 years I guess it depends on the project however if decisions have been made laws have been put in place decisions have been made it has gone out to V and whatever the city has to do to do a project for example and we get in a new group and in in in one year we're electing three potentially new people and those changes could come about and would we really be making effective change with term limits potentially if we get new people in with a majority votes to overturn work in progress or CH that I'm just putting that out for consideration M kin uh I understand what you said and that is a consideration as is Mr Dolan's suggestion there is a learning curve for almost everybody if you haven't already attended City commission and been involved in city government like committees and various things there's a learning curve as to what the process is a lot of Commissioners run and they've never even been set foot in City Hall but uh that's neither here NE there at this point uh I don't think again I think the elections every what you got every every it's staggered every four years they go out of office or they don't go out of office that again that's the will of the people if they think they're stupid they don't want don't want to office vote them out or if you don't like the color of their hair whatever vote them out but the other problem is if you do have term limits so you you you throw three out next year we can't get people to run for City commission hardly people don't want to run very few people want to run you can't get them for City committees so if you have a term limit and say two of them go out what if you get no nobody to run then you got an issue I mean seriously what if nobody wants to run you have to consider that too so I think again the voice of the people when you have the election every four years and it's say we got an election this year if you don't like them vote for the new folks you got you got an election next they're running again next year the next group is vote out if you don't like I'm getting it's the voice of the people and I think that takes of it than thank so any other comments wise look like you're about to say something the chair our democracy enable us to make that decision by often and we do it by the bot I strongly believe that um I understand the significance of asking and discussing adding a limitation on whatever but our democracy is built on that ability to be able to critique and to voice our opinion at the ble that's my statement any other comments as it relates to ter I'll say this go go ahead come say I just to respond to Miss Davis request thank you very I will will tell you uh the first turn is a learning curve huge learning curve not only you're trying to learn how to govern if you're learning trying to learn parliamentary procedure you're trying to learn uh operate within the Char within the Char trying to learn how to deal with State Statute trying to learn how to deal how it just it's just a huge learning curve and I will tell you that when I look at the state that does have term limits and I look at what those limits have done uh to the representation that the type of repres representation we currently have and whatnot I would not not recommend term Ms okay so contrary to commissioner Norwood I'm a proponent of term limits I think the risk and it's been said in local elections and and I didn't get that until until actually sit the SE the risk in local elections particularly in very small community where you some people who may be some people who may possess greater skill sets or work experience that or perceive greater skill sets um who may be willing to come in and and work most of those people were not going to come in for the salaries that government workers get um so so when these guys were there you basically got $1,000 a month as Commissioners and the mayor got $1,000 more you were not and while I got rich doing it at 16,000 starting now that um the reality of it is to attract professionals who who aren't willing to sacrifice of themselves who may have skill sets in finance or other areas sometimes you're not going to it takes a special person I think to want to do this um really for for the amount of money that you get doing it and so what I see even as a proponent for term limits is if you don't allow people to serve continuously if that's the will of the of the of the voters then you're going to find yourself scrambling to find somebody to fill a seat and that somebody may not necessarily be the somebody that we need to move forward when we talk about the conversation of having three people being elected at one time I came with that group but and and so let's just say somewhere in the future you end up with you have three people who everybody doesn't want there and they in essence have done something contrary to what the voters want to see in the community then it may be time for a change you don't know but you know luckily for us all our transitions have been smooth and we've had caring people come out but I I think when you sometimes change is good for communities particularly when you start looking at what's going to the growth the inevitable growth that's going to happen in this community change may be a good thing but also I think there's a foundation of people in this community who are just disengaged and so with that process you're you're hard pressed to find these folks on ballots you know this skill set isn't always on the ballot you're sometimes having to pull teeth to find somebody who you can pass the torch to and in most cases you haven't been able to do so so you find folks staying when they really want to retire um um on the on the ballot because they don't have any you know anyone else there and so I think that's the other piece of what happens in a small town you know if we were somewhere else I think it'd be a lot different but I think you just don't have the heart for people don't have the heart to serve in the same way um particularly and and sometimes take the beat down that you take sitting in the chair so for those of you who are proponents of ter limits what are your suggested ter limits m chair oh no Mr Mr Bell no yes so I I I mean we really appreciate your input but other than while we're deliberating I'm not going to ask for a whole bunch of it but so and that's not a knock on you but I want to make sure that the committee gets an opportunity to use all of his exhaustive remedies so I'll go ahead you can comment right now but um I want to make sure that you're not you're you're you're not going to be the aate for today I understand that I just want to make sure that with the the noise that I have in the background that the committee has an opportunity to consider the difference between absolute uh term limits and um the uh alternative which is to uh eliminate the potential for consistency consist assant uh service so you can also as an alternate say that there's a term limit of three terms and then you have to take a break for two years that possibility is there since you are the uh at the pleasure of the committee not going to use uh districts if everyone is elected at large you have the option of uh doing a temporary stay as opposed to a permanent ter okay and thank you we appreciate that good information any any other concerns um from the board as a whole of race term Li I'm ready to make a move if you're ready I'm ready [Music] for I move that we uh keep the current term limit what question she asked a question I didn't he my question was um for those who were who were proponents of ter do you maybe the question is do you have um suggested term limits my my my recommendation even though I'm a proponent of term limits right now is keep it like it is okay only because I don't think that the state of where we are puts us in a position to do anything different and to answer your question on my behalf um I I don't think that using continuity and lack of candidates is enough of a reason to to eliminate the discussion of term limits I think eight years would be a fair number of years in office but clearly there's not an appetite for that but Mr Mayor I mean chairman call I will I would just say that I agree with Miss Kites and I agree with uh part of what you said as well the citizens will have that opportunity to limit the terms um of anybody that's in office are running for office um so that would do away with uh anybody staying too long or anybody not being wanted and that type of thing uh the city the city did the citizen did V me out of office so they're on ter already but I me okay and so Mr dou is on point yeah uh Miss W said it perfectly this is a democracy the voice of the people must be heard it's heard in The Ballot Box if they really get upset with people or they like somebody else better they vot they V you out of office we three were voted out of office no problem it's the will of the people is that a motion I move that we keep the current term limits for the city commission and commission mayor second second huh to keep the current term limits yes there are no no ter Li current ter ter terms of off we're keeping terms if they exist so there's Mo FL in a second is there any further discussion see none all in favor say I oppose got two two NOS motion carries motion pass and noted for the record Mr I believe left for the afternoon's there what's R Ryan Ryan groups you can call me Sunni at the oh we look at whether we're going to do at larg lar we're talking group groups it used to be uh different we used to I guess run by different groups but it was always a Citywide election and does it really I guess my question would be does groups even serve a purpose yeah what Somebody explain I've been asking question since I came to Clark and I actually met with the supervisor of elections because we have this very question we have these District labels and that there is zero correlation between the districts um for the city of pla it is functioning at large so this gives this committee an opportunity if you you have the districts they they exist but you need to be able to determine whether or not you want the electorate to vote at large or just for their District representative and obviously there are pros and cons um to to both methodologies in one in case you have um those District Representatives more of a Holden to their constituent base U by contrast uh and large you guys can always talk about this you have a a broader platform of constituents to speak to about broader City issues yes'am um several years ago I think the county did it twice uh the county has different districts and it's at large and that works very well because that means each commissioner is is under the authority of everybody in the county several years ago back I think it was in the 80s maybe the county decided in their wisdom we're going to go to single District single District elections that went down about like the Titanic but a bit faster uh that was a bomb like it had in the previous years because you got one you got one little District electing one commissioner and a prime example was the one from Ed locking at that time forgot his name at this point uh but uh he was very unpopular uh there was no the the the County Citizens had no control over him only the little portion he represented and in the city and the county by the way is seven times the size of the city and it can work in the county you don't want to have me representing four blocks Mr Hill representing four blocks Mr Norwood you want us you want the city cut up like that that's ridiculous it's unworkable now as far as the I know we got the D that says you know like group one group two group three the only purpose that it serves now is it helps you know which commission is really in which which time right now we got group one and three running that labels a two for this time then the next time we got the other three I would suggest keeping the labels so so that we can discern who's running at which time and don't try to do as the individuals because that that is that would be a that would be a nightmare was a nightmare both times the county did it and for the little city school district it it's going to be horrible and the school district when a single District also I mean it has not worked with the voters because then you you want your elected officials to be answerable to everybody now I know in Congress by the Constitution you elect your Commissioners and your I mean your representatives and your Senators a certain way however they are all responsible to the entire people when the city commission and other small commissions they're not responsible the entire people I'd only be responsible for the people in the Hill area maybe Mr Hill may be the area the people downtown and that that would not work I don't think you have a commission that can even vote come to a come to a decision that way you want them all to be respons responsible to everybody there's a pro there is there a come yes ma' I start I'll start here I come back to you D I disagree I feel like um with the what we have going on now with the groups then um all of the Commissioners or the mayor you know they all live in the downtown area um and so they they're not out in and I'm just using the downtown area as an example I'm not I don't know where anybody lives um I I don't feel like there is a a good representation of each area in within the community um I I just feel like districts are are important now whether the entire Community should be able to vote per District that's a whole different topic of discussion in my opinion um I feel like we should have two different we should discuss whether want districts and if we decide we want districts then we should discuss who votes for those districts so that's a pro for looking at single member districts which is the term that you have as it relates to what's in place Mr Davis um yes so I did have a follow question on Miss kitchen so um when you're saying that the um Thee the Commissioners if they were from specific spefic districts they would only be beholden to the constituents of that District what exactly does that entail so when they're you know acting as a commission right to say they're not responsible for the whole city I guess I just don't understand what that means well in in relation to the county which was the direct question it would apply to the city the County Commissioners at that the few time the two times and it bom both times with the voters and everybody else the the interlocking person that area West putam he was only responsible for West putham he didn't care if it affected the rest of putam County he would vote against it if it was for West putham the people from the qu City person same thing the East Paca person same thing the Paca person same thing and I think the other one was like Bost here I forgot exactly where they boss we anyway the F the Commissioners each one to stay in office and to to meet what they to get back in office and stay elected they had to do what Their voters wanted so if if if for the entire County somebody wanted something and if it didn't help Ed lock interlockin was going to say no if it didn't help Bost Bost was going to say no and you have a divided commission that way and as to the city uh it's first of all the whole commission doesn't live downtown at all example example they they and I've knowen commission Commissioners for years many of them and none of them ever lived in one area uh you can live in any area of the city you want and run for city election but uh you you need you need people to we got only 10 L about 10,000 people in the city of Paca and five th five people in the 2,000 people and each commissioner would represent like 2,000 people roughly and you cannot it's like a a a a team of mules that's not right um You can't have a country divided against itself you got five Commissioners each one represents you got one represent downtown you got one representing the north histor one representing the South one representing the hill areas one representing the north side they are not to be in agreement if it doesn't agree with their part of the town but if everybody's voting for them then you have a better chance of having a good outcome for everybody M Davis I agree with Miss Flanders here's the thing what I'm gonna ask us to do is step outside of the box and look at the outcom work we currently have at large um council members right and the reality is every part of this city is not being considered I think we can all agree on that and if not I'm going to ask you to get out of your neighborhood because that is true the other thing that I've experienced this is my observation is that it depends on who's doing what and where and who owes whom what as to what comes up in one commission meeting for example we were talking about adding lights to Han briyan Park and updating Hank Bryan Park which is a city park what I don't understand is that when we're talking about updating city parks I'm not saying they have to be equal because each City Park needs something differently but if we can't update all city parks so whatever is needed then we're doing our city of disservice I'm only using Parts as an example another point I want to make is even though we're all voting for everybody I have not seen city um sign it for voting but for County they're they are on Main Streets they're in certain areas there are parts of town that don't even see a sign as if they're not coming to vote and nobody wants their vote the point I'm trying to make is we have a situation what opportunity do we have in setting up this Charter to ensure that whether we're at large or single District that the entire city has representation and I think that's the point Miss Flanders is making and if not that's certainly the point I'm making definitely the point I make um I I hear the comments that this sketchin was making and I understand them totally uh however if we decided to do the districts if for instance the suggestion that you made that one person cannot get anything pass on any it requires the majority so I'm saying that this is our time to make a difference for those who do not have a voice and if we are going to remain in a box what's the purpose of this committee I agree we have to see where people are and let them know that we're willing to make this next 20 years or 50 years different from the last and just like Sunny showed us what it was the old Charter what are they going to say about us 10 years from now when we had the opportunity to try it not necessarily saying it's going to work but if it does it we could tweak that thing and get it done a different way but for this time this committee is in place to make a difference we're not just here doing lip service we want to bring something to the table that is new and invaded and if it doesn't work it doesn't work and we also know what we can go back to but I am totally agree that there are parts of these districts that feel as though they do not have a voice regardless of what people might say that is a reality and I think that we should look at all aspect maybe this is something for the subcommittee I don't know but I do know it behoove us to take this moment seriously because it will reflect what we will be in the near future that's my comment m k um when the county decided to go to individual District's representation the County Commission nor committee made that decision that was put on a referendum of the ballot the voters decided to do that when they saw how badly it bombed they started complaining immediately in appearing commission meetings at the next election they got another referendum and they got it thrown off the ballot as to the parks I understand what Miss Davis is talking about I to have been a bit uh taken back by all the improvements in unnecessary Han Bryan Park but I might point out there's been more improvements in Booker park with more money spent and they did the they did a grant at Hank Bryan Park they piggy banked off the booker Park there's only three parks in the city that are big the Riverfront Park which is for everybody in Scott grants Hank Bryan Park is for everybody but the perception is that it's not but it really is uh and then Booker Park which consists of a lot of Sports fields which the mayor helped Institute the sports program back in the city prob before my mayor thank you uh so can you all the parks the and that's not the perception Booker park for everyone I just Booker park has had more money put in it than Han Brian Park is and Hank Brian I protested them doing the restrooms it's a stupid idea at Hank Brian Park but what they're trying to do is they're trying to the current commission is trying to treat everybody equally with the parks uh but if if the voters is decide to go to single districts and they they will regret it uh but you're not I know what you're wanting but it's not going to work that way because if you got when you got 10,000 people in the city you're going to have the districts divided up maybe not in the racial way that you want it divide it up it's be an issue can I say something Mr chair yeah but but not before I ask this question what do you mean that in the racial way you're not going to have one representative for the north side of black one representative of the north side of the South this hill area it's going to be divided up somebody's going to get they're going to divide the political map up and I don't think you're going to have a cohesive operation that's going to help everybody and the point is to make sure that certain underprivileged communities or under I I don't think slander point I'm no no the the comment came I I got this i got this I was talking to Miss Davis that's fine but I'm responding for Miss Davis right now I the com that Miss Davis made was as to miss flanders's comment as to underrepresented communities when I'm thinking about what Miss Flanders is saying my mindset goes to the fact that what we always talk about in the city of Paca and meetings is CRA districts that's correct and we talk about the north side we don't talk about Ring Hills we don't talk about the outline areas and so you have people who live in areas close to Francis are Cal Francis they live in areas out Lundy Road they live in other places that we we we literally don't have a bunch of conversations about them one because we're not mandated by CRA projects and some other places and that's where the struggles come in I even went so far as to say hey Commissioners we're going to put money in your budget for your geographical District that's defined so that you and it's also defined by police districts which are very similar so that you can start to do programs in those areas and that turned into at large programs as opposed to perspective programs what the county had what the county has done and it's an example in other communities do the same thing even though they have at large elections they also in their districts they require you to live in the geographical District true and that's what the County's done this far the county used uh they use boundary lines from as it related to the prior election their ability to to draw boundaries to to be able to draw people into certain districts but you can say I want you to live in district one I want you to live in District Two or wherever you're going to live and the mayor be and at large elected official um and and that way you have a person who physically lives in each one of the the four corners of the city that you know and as the city expands we get back into the other conversation that may be something for a charter to look at but I think where we are and from this conversation because I I and I don't want anybody to assume that there are interior motives as to why the conversation takes place at this point what I want us to do is to use these opportunities and that's why we had that dialogue early on so that when we get to places like this we can say it's time to set up subcommittee to talk about it because and we can and we can set our subcommittees up in such a way that we can all draw from we can draw information from one another and be able to bring it back with those VI because I don't think that your perception or your view can be deemed wrong I think it may be I think it may be premature until you hear something that triggers it but I also think that your perception is right and I think that there there are people in this community who are not receiving the same benefit for their dollar that other folks are because it's perceive that those those communities are doing okay Mr Hill you nailed it I have no problem with what if I think it's a splendid idea for the districts to be set up and you have to live in the district that you represent but it be all County All County voting but you have to live in the district you represent I think in that work in the city I have no problem with that I'm go he and I'm coming back to you I just want to make one comment I I don't think that it's prudent to think that there is any sort of racial decisions when it comes to this conversation as I wanted to make a point that me and Miss Davis are neighbors we live in the same area and I live in a neighborhood and I think that us being represented in our neighborhood in our area would be beneficial that's right so I just want to make that com building come the north side now for over 22 years and I live in the District but I have never seen good representation for the north side for after let's say fourth or fifth Street when there are no historic homes anymore it has being such a sad situation for a lot of people for decades and I have never seen any real good representation for these people so that's just and that's why I am part of this because I really really would like to see improv in the after going which way yeah is going in the River Way um this is just a suggestion that perhaps we can come back to this another time because we've already spent couple of hours on section 21 or an hour on section 21 for two different votes and we're dealing with two references to groups or three references to groups that I don't know if everybody understood what differences between group and District when we started I'd like to know if they're drawn or if now we're getting into legislative matter and if Department of Elections needs to come in well I don't think the department election is going to control it the city controls its own the B the area supervisor of election for plon County controls our election our district but oh so go all the way through it's in the conference room in the left she conference room um can I pause to go show the bathroom this a good conference have a time we got we're gonna have one we can we can time limit by motion and we can always reconvene but so we're going to be in recess for for let been recess for about five minutes and I'll give you time to stretch your legs I don't want to be on WN I know that we're supposed to Che the date and time I'm missing Bible this we're recess Sun for five thank you I'll mute okay e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e we we're gonna go ahead and Rec for those of you our five minute 10 minute break is just uh reconvene thank you M Davis I can help you I move that we move the at large to discussion at large discussion to um no we got interrupted the bathroom break so we'll go back sorry we'll go back Mr Dolan then we'll come back to you Mr um again I was just wondering as part of discussion if this is something that we want to put off to either subcommittees or uh just table it to the next meeting because it it seems like a lot more than just dealing with a couple sentences because we're talking about putting a legislative map pack practically for districts right I think that that's where the motion was headed seemed like um sorry so if you so let's take let's take Miss Davis's motion at this time I think that's where we're going I move that we move the ad large discussion to subcommittee to do some fact finding and report that second motion so there's a motion on the floor to move it to subcommittees is there any further discussion on this motion see none all in favor say i i oppos n motion carries now now I will now we can divide we need to divide into subcommittees and so what's our what we have 11 members on this do you need do you need several subcommittees or one subcommittee come back come back I would advise one for this topic okay still one sub commmittee for this topic learning volunteers and the C the topic is single clarify the topic please again it's going to be districts single districts Ops number Miss Wise Miss Flanders Mr Davis anyone else volunteer to be on this committee what's the number that's let's go four on this committee we've got three we got one more Mr Schuler so there we there we go with the committee at this point but let's yeah Mr may make make it clear of what the sub commmittee is doing in that way because because this committee may come you may come back we may not accept so this committee is going to bring us back the differences between single member districts versus at large and there are also Blended and Blended districts so they'll bring us back uh the variations of of how districts are how how elected officials are set out based upon atar election versus versus single member districts or residency requirements uh I would just mention that the sheet of data that I have doesn't include this um but I'm happy to refer the committee to my contacts at the league or provide the data that I do have to the committee if they want like a list of the 41 municipalities so just feel free to reach out to me and I'll try to answer your questions or direct to someone who can and if you also have any additional if the committee also has any additional research requests then you have Florida League the other Florida League of cities that can do that as well as Miss CR can do it through the clerk Association some the other places also you can go to the supervisor of election we do have experience with that here in this committee is there a timeline for the committee to bring the information subcommittee to bring the information back or they'll bring the report back for the next meeting the next meeting which we're doing every other month right right oh okay that work give time you'll find that the supervisor of elections is extremely accting very so in your subcommittee we would ask that U you designate an individual to take to take not take to take minutes as well as someone who's going to act as a chair for the committee are we doing that now yes should we do that now you can we can do it you can do your in your committee meeting and just bring back for them who the chair our committee meeting um after we bring our information together we can meet where to bring our inform I can speak to you guys based upon options if you guys decide on the date I can tell you the city facilities that would be available on that date or refer you to a department head that could tell you about the facility yes sir Mr K I'd like to add to that to this committee if you could if this committee would consider doing this as well to look at Commissioners resident requirements as well because you know it's when you start looking at District representation and that kind of thing it's also should should include residen requir that's under Section 22 right I'm looking that's Point that's why I'm asking for that committee to actually look at that as well in there why they're looking at uh looking at uh the districts and that kind of thing I think that's a part that should be part of that disc part of that discussion as well I think a bit much for I think if they want for think about it again but I think that's a bit much more if they're consider check okay but if they're considering going to districts I think a part of that discussion has to be that the that the commission you live in the district district you got they have they have to live in the district that's I'm saying but my is but but my point is I know it's by law I get that but my point is it needs to be a part part of that discussion as well okay and it's been a part of our discussion yeah already yeah so so we've got those you've got those areas yes ma'am um I just want to make sure that um we all are on the same page our information that we're doing to col will be brought back to this board to review no decision no opinions in this it's just strictly information it's for information purposes you have the ability to make a recommendation to this body based on the information that you have as your subcommittee correct yeah no no recomendation I mean again Mr chair if this body wants to make a government in the sunshine subcommittee I'm willing to work with you guys post an agenda you would post minutes to the public you would make your meeting public but that's got to be something that this committee would decide to do all right then no recomendations would it be fair to or better to describe the subcommittee as a research committee perhaps of a sub that we're not necessarily I like that do we name the the different committees not is I I think we're we we've shown that just going so and let me just go and say this the purpose of this exercise today is so that you get an opportunity to see just how in depth you can go with these conversations with 11 of us in the room um and how the tool of being able to use sub committees and provide certain information U and it keeps us from saying you know having back a conversation where we get seven comments and some of the comments are very similar um so but the comments are you just dropped something the comments are something for the comments are healthy um I think I think the commentary today has been extremely healthy while it may and sometimes may at times have been a bit redundant in nature but I think to hear from everyone has been important for us today and I think it's been and it also gives us a gauge as to how long it could really take us to go through some of this stuff and so while we haven't covered more than a a true page of information today we've actually covered some very important topics and I think that's one of the pieces so as we transition further and what I want us to do is is not to belabor today I think this is a good we're almost at a good stopping point and then we can start to go over the remainder of of what we've got when we come back and um but there's another piece in here that talks about we'll see it in a couple different places it talks about when officials take office and it says on the first Monday in January many of our other boards take office like within two weeks of their election they get sworn in one of the reasons we have the residency requirement in my opinion is because after that election the next vote was to create residency um a residential requirement in Paca and that happened within the twoe period of transition whether and and I'll say whether it was done based on whatever considerations you had three new people coming in but a residential requirement place for elections with uh one at that time it started out as onee residential requirement and then it went to six months well I didn't live in the city when I ran I didn't move I moved in the city in the middle of my election so but regardless of it you know had we taken office two weeks after that election like the school board and the county does it may not have come up it may have it may not I I don't have I didn't have an issue with it either way but it was something that happened but what happens when you have that you have your transition in place and you have people who aren't as great of sports for lack of any other term who decide to do things that are malicious and neighbor or something that could set you back and you know I think that your transition period doesn't need to be two months because that's that's a long time to get things done the other part of it is your swearing in ceremony it has to be at 7:30 at night on the first Monday of January and for me it was tortured to have to be out there all that time and so those are those are things that are done by Charter and it can't be changed unless it's already Rend M Mr may I mean chair my uh I guess my my thoughts thing goes to in order to qualify to get on the bot should they have a residential should there be should they live in the city limits a part of their qualifications I don't think anybody else should be do what I did that's that's qualified to be qualify to be an election without being a resident I think you should be a city resident for a solid year before you can run on the on the election and I found out and you all may know this but I was a gas last year was been when M I try try to say mayor when Mr Hill chairman Hill uh was up for re-election I think it was uh one of the times he was up for re-election uh his opponent registered to vote with a city address on Ocean Street the man signed Homestead and legally lived on West River Road but the city ordinance said you have to just you when you take office you have to be a city resident but what I found out that really floored me was this I found out from the supervisor of elections you don't have to live where you register to vote that's a state law we can't change that but I think we must say when it comes when it we come to picking residency you have to have been a resident of the city of Pac for one year now if you own property and you sign Homestead that's a good sign that you're a resident registering the vote doesn't say you're a resident you could you could live in dur Jackson on register vote Ocean Street so and I was a Gess when I heard that's a state election law and I haven't talked to the legislator that be changed that should be one of the suggestion that's on the table for us to have a discussion about it you take a vote on it cing but my my point that I'm making is that we should have you know we should explore all those and I think my for me personally if you want to run for the city commission you all already live in the city exactly not to have that opportunity to move in the cityes per to that and that's where I'm at right now okay so are we there already because understanding was the chair was still on when you take office 21 Mr nor just suggested that the committee the subcommittee research committee uh put a residency requirement that you had to live in the district if they go with District you have to live in the district you're running from yeah that's what that up part that sub committe resp as we so so for the purposes of where we are as we we're still on the the section of we're on my comment was based on section 21 but I I don't think you can address it in totality without addressing section 22 I also think that this is a good place for another subcommittee and so and so but I but because I think what happens is this and this is something Miss Grant can attach to and speaking with the supervisor of elections we who certifies residency the supervisor elections only certifies whether your your address on your voter registration card is in your city the city does not have an ordinance that goes directly to the that gives the clerk a directive to certify the candidates to to to basically to vet the candidates to make sure that they're providing proof of residency and so that owners and that so that's been aoid in so many ways based after the residential requirement came into place and I think that when we look it needs to be shed up for when a person runs for office in in the city of Paca if we're going to have a residency requirement then that requirement then in my opinion that requirement has to be set forth with a specific time and with specific with specific standards that are going to be adhered to but I also think that we have to look at when when we transition in the office because right now as it relates to residency and transitioning in office the only thing we have is language that says that that the commissioner must live in the city limits of palaka in order to take off when at the time of taking office and so that's the that's the thought process so any additional comments concerns or motions as it pertains to this matter Mr Mayor I don't think we need subcommittee for that one and the reason I don't think we need subcommittee for that one because I think most of us will agree that there's it makes no sense really to wait two months to swear a person in if the citizens have voted them to represent to rep to represent us um so for this following along that's section 24 oh that's section 24 okay SK yeah no so section 24 and section so like I said before the language in section 21 leads to what's in 22 and 24 they all tie in together and so language 21 so we don't have duplicative sections here clean that up have section 24 pertain directly to when the person gets sworn inen to January in SE 21 is that okay so I like because I did read the whole thing um and I felt like article four also addressed this in the elections in the elections um so I feel like it's it's really all over the place even into article 4 section 46 you can incorporate and and reference previous sections in nor when you get to that right we we are going to have to do some significant edits deletions on article four I think as we come to a conclusion on what we want to present to the commission on the different on the different sections within the article I think then it gives you gives whoever's going to clean that up the language give them segue into cleaning it up that language or section 21 so just so we're we stay stay on track and we've got it as it relates so section 21 says that said Commissioners and mayor shall hold office beginning on the 1 Monday in January next after the election is herein provided in the manner in a manner of the following so I think we have to address it then then it goes through language from 1947 so that's where we start right right so then as we go to section 22 section 22 talks about uh IT addresses the bond which is a whole separate issue yes and so the $5,000 bond is something that um has come up um and it came up and so when you look at the bond issue it says members of the city commission shall be residents of the city of Paca and shall have the qualifications of electors the mayor and each other commissioner shall furnish a shity bond and such sum as shall be prescribed by ordinance but not less than $5,000 payable to the city of Paca said bond to be approved by the City attorney the city commission shall be judge of the election you might want to have language in there about for the yeah that was my question because the bond isn't paid for at this time by by the elected offici by the Commissioners or the mayor nor is a bond for the city manager yeah that was my question right and so any any concerns or anything that we think we need to be modified from there is that common practice chair for the State of Florida some most places require you to have a bond and typically if you have the if you have insurance where you're elected it's paying for by the city so what exactly does this bom do what does it protect or know won't do much you for hour chair of the next line of that paragraph is question what commission shall be judge of the election and qualifications of its own members so what we we start by the election that's what that that's what actually means so M CR I do not claim to be an elections expert but I can tell you what presently is my understanding of what happens the canvasing board of the supervisor Elections office canvases the elections once the canvasing board has completed their duties and the supervisor of elections feels completely comfortable he certified the election results it comes to me to place on the record in the city commission to to read it um for the city commission for the city commission to essentially accept the report I I I I do not have any experience of a commissioner at that time giving an objection to know what that process would look like and that's not a conversation that I have personally had with supervisor it says right for exploitation um and given the current state of affairs the I would strongly recommend cling this language up if you do want some sort of certification process be very specific and how you want that to look like that's the reason it and come back at the next meeting that's the reason why you got to clear what all what all the qualifications is for even running for City commission and know because you can have somebody elected and not might not be bondable right why would you be I think there's a criteria for you live in the city you don't live in the city or you be like some of the other cities and have somebody elected who's not electable whatever right that's what we're finding right and so the reality of it is the vetting process has had um some some some gaps in it based on because we have historically relied on the super visor election to do things that most cities would have their own would have their own processes in place to do and that was one of the things that me and Miss France discussed um after she became actually before she became clerk uh we began to discuss it because there was there were some controls that were not in place and I think it's it would be prudent upon us here when we talk about how we can impact the future of this community those are places where we can do that and something that's simple as what we see in that paragraph has lasting impacts and it has needs far more teeth than what it has yes chairman could we this West to clean that up and word it in a proper way so where it has better teeth exploited she's you know we we can but I don't think that that responsibility should be placed on this West that's responsibility is placed on this body and I think what Miss West's job is is she's the editor and she's the person who provides legal guidance as to whether what we're doing is legal or not and so I I think that and this is just my opinion I want you guys to chime in I think it's our it's our responsibility here to to bring that information forth so that we can have you know a real discussion about what's in place and where we should go I was asking for her to edit it she's already edited the first part but the 48 49 part this was just editing this part but there's a difference between editing and writing and this is well she's going to reward it isn't that but we're going to change some things we got to make some decisions judging the election I'm going talk about that part but there's a difference between her cleaning up language and doing the sites for where you where you're referencing various ctions so referencing what's in article 4 compared to what's in section 21 or 22 is far different than actually we're going to we're basically going to have to rewrite 22 yes and come up with our own stuff and we can look at so for informational purposes we could have a committee that comes back and they look at various they look at various Charters throughout of what the common language is based upon what the league says and they're saying hey here's something that other communities are using and we found that this is pretty common language for what's in place so what's the motion what's the motion who's made the motion motion I said I I I took this me too that we mve to subcommittee already got2 21 I came back and I asked and combin with section four that's a whole different I came back and I asked to Also let's make section 22 a part of that subcommittee because I don't think that you can actually talk about uh the items that you're going to talk about in section 21 with without including uh uh uh SE uh SE section 22 but now they're talking about combining section 22 with article four that's a whole different B that's another one but also section 24 also deals with this so that's why at some point we got to start we got to actually take these things one by one and actually uh come to some type of conclusion so whoever starts cleaning up the language don't have to clean it up every time we move so just for my clarification I I have the I have named it with your advice Mr Scher the district research subcommittee which is tasked with um examining the pros and cons of at large or Special Districts which will include the residency requirements to live in the district that is part of a the analysis for a special district or in that large District you have to look at that residency requirement that is separate from section 2 2 there is overlap admittedly but I think there are some other issues within section 22 regarding the bond regarding least the judge of election and qualifications that require a completely different analysis from special or atlarge distri yeah it's the perfect place so I'll entertain a motion uh for the creation of sub for Section 22 subcommittee which also includes uh the time to the time in which we an elector takes an elect takes office I'll entertain motion so so so there's a motion in place is there a second there's a second by Miss Wise is there any further discussion on this motion all in favor say I I oppos motion carries now at this time I will take volunteers for Section 22 I volunteer so miss kitchens Mr Dolan Miss Davis an need a four and so we got Norwood and so yes so that covers that that that that covers it I think this is a wonderful spot for us yeah to I it's a wonderful stopping point for us for today um we've had healthy conversations any comments concerns suggestions before we set our next meeting thank you for the binders any anything else Miss CR next meeting date next meeting yes um if we would please have a conversation on the next meeting date also like your feedback on uh the room versus the city commission Chambers like your feedback on uh the use of Zoom like your feedback on all of that you want that mail or an email I mean I would like for this committee to decide it I personally prefer here it gets a chance to stuff and inste hands looks like like the tenses will be here um hope we don't get a room full of public we have big ISS and if I was a Gambling Man I would say it won't happen no if I was a gambling I would say it might happen uh M CR informed me that in this room if more than one people's speaking and the recording doesn't pick it up it's garble this has to be a clear recording these are public meetings that the public must be able to attend it's got to be a clear recording so I just point that out Mr CR pointed that out to me and if we're going to continue to meet in this room which I guess we are I would suggest the air condition be turned down a little bit cooler because I am hot I've been hot during the whole meeting and that's got nothing to do with aggression I'm just hot I've been hot ever since menopause bring you one of those little fans I've got one iot to bring the rest of us are not hot so we so we got that next meeting date we have a suggest thanks I'm trying to pull it up at the Mr chair sir we move thir the third Thurs of the mon sir yes sir also just hold up for one second we're almost also procedurally I think we probably need to wait the cheer recognizes Us in order to speak that's the way that we're going to uh be clear on tape and and clear to one another because we have so many different things going on at one time so but I I think and my my request is is that everybody waits for the cheer to give them the floor in order to speak Mr chair yes ma'am I have the floor yes I suggest the third Thursday of August that's the 15th there's no City commission conflict there's no church conflict and I think that would be a good uh Thursday the second is is not good Thursday because City commission might be meeting I second Su was motion everybody can you check your schedule can you check your schedule and see where we are in August 8:15 yes yes August 15 you've only got one commission meeting in August right when is it sun commission meeting I didn't know I think they're going to be at they'll be at Florida Le of cities right yeah we have the commissioner are you GNA be there so just go pass it Go pass it so on August 15th um City staff and the commission will be at the lady and so my brother 16th I sign up it's always the same well 16th is good we City St well we need her and we to see attorney but I want to do a Friday sure Mr Bill so what day are we picking the 16th or what I meanes we so we're gone Thursday coming back when's your next meeting on third in August when's your meeting in August my meeting in August I believe is e it's it's the eth okay we 22nd maybe yeah 22nd be good that gives us almost right two months yeah no that's what we're trying to yeah August 22nd is that what we've decided on we're trying we're trying to see I like so what whether do we move not August we're just talking about August the 22nd for our next meeting we haven't said our regular date and time yet there's cont say you say there oh yeah well until 5 o' oh question have or are we GNA have any that start after five for members of the public good question do couple of things one I want to say we agre to this room without having all information so I heard that there's a potential for garble comments if we are not so give us direction we look at recording yeah from listening to tree committee meetings that have occurred in this room if multiple people are talking at the same time because you all are only using the room microphone it will sound garble if you have three or four people talking members of the public and I'm not calling you out Sarah just talking in general if you have members of the public sitting in the corner and they're talking at the same time you're talking it's picking up members of the public as well whereas in the commission Chambers I can tell you guys hey turn off the podium so you don't get the public talking at in your background um and that's just something you weigh out if you think that not a whole bunch of Public's going to come or or that you guys can maintain just one or you know one speaker talking at the same time maintain the Forum this room is perfectly F the recording will be okay it just depends upon can you maintain Forum can you maintain the public um maintain the quum and and that's the the job we can share to maintain theum it'll be hard to here but if you guys want to use one microphone where the person's turning on the microphone talk keep in mind the downside with commission Chambers is I don't have enough microphones for you all so you're sharing microphones and Reaching Across the other one to turn on the microphone so there's a downside there and of course on the dice you guys are kind of squeezed in um here of course I'm kind of limited as to camera and I'm in my head thinking how I would I could get something to try to turn the camera um as an option I can bring my stand from next door and I can look into that um if you guys all want to be on camera but [Music] um of course in the commission Chambers depending on where you said I know and Miss Miss Davis you sat with me in the commission last time so that camera doesn't turn all the way that angle so I have no problem being on camera I don't prefer it but I don't not prefer it because this is a public meeting and when you volunteer for a committee you're goingon to be publicized so that's that goes with the territory so I don't care either way about that I just want to make sure the public can have a full view of our meeting and know what's going on who said what because it's very important I mean as you can see I turned on the captions because I wanted to watch and make sure that it was picking up everyone and you can see the captions that are coming across is it picking up the what's being said with all that being said what who prefers to be in this room by show hands there we go okay thank you now to how are we on the date of the 22nd and if we can't everybody get on second I'm not Ava leh me any preference on meeting time before leave it at 4 or who wants to doership but them on August 8 oh on August not August 22nd I can pull the business inton session leadership in plam is what I have for the 22nd um not 22 28th I mean are you referring to the Chamber of Comm yeah um if you'll give me a second I'm happy to double check the email I have from it's on the 8th and it's on 2 second I'm looking you're right well and your meeting starts when 1 one until 5 so if we move that meeting in August till 5 o' that would end the conflict basic you might be five or six minutes late you do four hours of meeting is this going to be a five o' that we're is it's going to be a normal thing CU if it's going to be a normal thing then I'm going to if we can just do it we can go ahead and make it at 4 o four o' everybody good the next meting yes we is there anything else before this committee if not I entertain a motion to adjourn move by consensus we thank you all thank you