##VIDEO ID:9Di8TpPLMAw## e e this is a test of the city of Paka audio system e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e to order we're here for the special call City Commission meeting on August 27th at 6 PM we're going to start with a special call meeting notice please miss CR the Commissioners Tammy mccal Justin Campbell Rufus boram and will Jones you're hereby notified the special called meeting public meeting of the Pet City commission is hereby call to be held on August 27th 2024 at 6 o'clock pm or immediately following the J employees pension board whichever occurs later um the purpose of the meeting is for negotiations with police benevolent Association immediately following the public meeting reference above a closed private executive session of the P City commission will be held at the pl City Hall Annex 205 North Second Street black Florida 32177 the purpose of the session is discussion and Direction collective bargaining negotiation police benevolent Association please govern yourselves accordingly sign Roberto M Cur mayor thank you we're going to start by standing for the invocation by Pastor M and the Pledge of Allegiance by commissioner m good evening everyone father we thank you once again for the opportunity to come together we thank you for how good you have been all day long we pray God that you would give guidance on this board in the meeting to each and individual pray to God for your directions your instructions and for what things we must do to move forward this city pray God that every decision be made be made God For Your Glory we going to thank you and praise you in advance for all that you're doing for us continue to bless the work of our hands as we look to you even the more bless us now God I pray in Jesus name amen amen followed allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all roll call please miss CR thank you so much commissioner Tammy mccal here commissioner Justin Campbell present commissioner will Jones here commissioner Rufus forum is not present for the record but we were expecting that Madame mayor um and yourself present we have Corum in the chambers thank you at this time I'm going to open the floor to public comments public comments are limited to three minutes please and give your city of residents for the record is there anybody here for public comments seeing none we'll close public comments and we'll go on to regular business negotiations with the police benevolent Association Mr Bell or Miss West who's going to stop yes thank you uh mayor um so in response to the the discussion that occurred at the the last uh meeting that we had in reference to the police B evolence contract there was a a request to have an or to provide an opportunity for the representative of the police Union to be able to be present and uh provide uh information concerning the uh requests in the contract and provide an opportunity for the commission bless you the commission to be able to uh ask questions and so that's what was the impetus behind this meeting and so I'd like to defer to the uh attorney who's representing the Union in this case good afternoon everybody is the mic on excuse me good afternoon everybody uh mayor um Commissioners I'm Greg forehand I always get labeled that attorney um I am an attorney I've been an attorney since 97 uh my connection applied because I was a prosecutor here with Joe Boatright back in in the early 2000s uh my son works for the St John's Water Management District here in town um I am the representative Co Coastal Florida PBA for the Paca bargaining unit because I'm the guy that lives just up the road in green Co Springs our office is in Daytona Beach um the reason you see an attorney is not because you need an attorney here but because I'm the close guy that's local to you um I've been doing um public sector labor law since 2013 um I am a rep for all of our local units that are towards the north including nearby St Augustine uh I will tell you initially that when we started negotiations we had started um the members had looked at the St Augustine collective bargaining agreement kind of as a guide for where to go um all that being said let let me tell you why um it it's something that a lot of people go why all of a sudden are you know do we have a union um in this case um there was a strong concern um that the previous mayor um there was an individual I don't know it was before my time but concern that an officer might get let go um fired from his career for reasons that wouldn't justify termination and that's what spurred the desire to to bring a police Union in um I will tell you that your police chief is well-respected um there is no dissension among the ranks concerning him uh he's well-liked and respected I will tell you that in working with a lot of the small police departments like patka I try to view it as more of a of a partnership in a lot of ways um that being said we've come here to negotiate the first contract um here to answer any questions you may have and I would at this time let to let you guys ask me anything you'd like commissioner camel do you have any specific questions of the attorney commissioner Jones yeah I do so Mr foran uh I did ask some of the questions in the past and uh accent of the chief who gave me his thoughts on it uh and I want to say it on the record that I'm Pro police and law enforcement in Ms uh and I was kind of wondering it almost felt like a slap in the face with the benefit packet that the city of Paka offer and I know from experience and visiting other law enforcement agencies around and you probably be able to coner or not um with our pension program and that's not not like any other around we are we treat our officers pretty good uh there're going to be a thing or two that you know that they may request that they may want but I was just trying to figure out and you just answered one of the questions the reason why you know I guess that's a fear that's almost like a Fear Factor but other than that if it comes to benefits what are what are the some of the things that they really want or cause them to uh at this be kind of like out of Stell mate I just would like to so we could kind of like be through the chase what is it well let me first explain that it the the driving Factor truly was and predominantly the ability to get what we call just caus in the contract so that nobody could lose their job you know unfairly or poit for political reasons the other thing that I want you to understand um the benefit of whether we have a contract or not of them being union members is when a police officer is involved in a shooting a lot of people don't realize that that officer is immediately under criminal investigation for murder um I I don't know how um your city does it I don't I understand you guys haven't had a shooting incident in a long time but a lot of agencies will bring in FDLE or sometimes the local sheriff's office we represent the officers the minute they're involved in a shooting um we come out we give them support in the middle of the night and we're there to defend them and represent them because they are criminally investigated um that being said um the kind of the the the two little things and I call them little because I see it everywhere that that they said is aside from the job protection um they wanted a take-home cars more range on them for the life of me and I and I'm a former police officer for the life of me I don't know why anybody would want to have a police car in their driveway that being said for new officers it's like the most important thing that they care about and I see it in every agency um we've asked for I think it's 30 um 30 air miles for take-home car um for a lot of these young officers obviously they're police officers they're not not attorneys they're not making a ton of money having a vehicle where they can go to and from work is a is a big financial asset to them and then the other thing that that came up was the the window tinting um this is the only city that I've ever saw where police officers Vehicles weren't window tinted or basically almost required to be window tinted um as a former police officer I will tell you that aside from the fact that it keeps the car cooler in our hot summers it is a safety Factor um I can tell you about two incidents where police officers were killed because somebody walked up to the side of their vehicle while they were looking at their computer and shot and killed the officer with window tinting on the side if a bad person can't see whether or not the officer's looking at them or not they're less likely to do it and then obviously from a patrol standpoint when you're driv driving around with tinted windows people don't know whether you're looking at them or not um but again the driving factor to all this was the getting some insurance that they wouldn't lose their career um unless they did something Justified of them being terminated um I will tell you that the take-home vehicle aspect is going to be one and from what I've seen one of the best ways bang for the buck for a city to recruit new officers um as you may know the city of Jacksonville just said we're going to start our police officers at $65,000 um in the last couple of weeks the city of of uh Jacksonville Beach which is one of the small cities attached to Jacksonville they just raised their officers to 65,000 officers when with experience can start at 69 and within a couple years they're making 73 um Neptune Beach is following following the same tomb um I can tell you that um Atlantic Beach which is one of our units uh in the next I think two days on Thursday they're going to have a vote to do the same thing patka is a great City but like all cities you're not made of money um I think uh the take-home car provision gets you your best recruiting tool for the least amount of money um there is it's unheard of in my lifetime the arms race to pay money to get qualified police officers um I can tell you that St Augustines at $58,000 um and I can also tell you that the the benefit package here um it's it's not it's not one of the best at all but okay there are other cities with much more money there's other cities such as Coco that have utilities monies which are which are great let's talk about our region because you go to Coco that's a tourist town so you know that we can't compete with uh Coco and and here's my take and I that's why I wanted out Union and labor lawyer in here because of course that's not my title but as common sense and we we talk common sense what we can and cannot do you know we're not going to be able to pay $60,000 for as a salary to officers at this time maybe when we continue to grow because our population have remained the same or lower right in in probably the last 10 10 years so when you start talking and selling those kind of points to a Workforce particular Workforce that that's that's kind of like uh that that really causes some of the problem as I see it here on the St um again for giving our officers what they need to do their job going back to both points because I know you could go on and on with examples but you were going to a different region that I didn't want to speak on um we're talking about neighboring counties surrounding municipalities the way we are um you mentioned Jacksonville and you mentioned uh maybe s Austine I believe it's probably St Augustine Beach I don't know but those areas let's say St Augustine because I know they're within 30 nautical air miles right guess what if if the salary 60,000 We're not gonna get those guys anyway so I don't care if we let them take it home and uh ride around town $60,000 in your pocket is going to be the car to just be taken home for gas so you that that's not a that's not a to me logical a reason to to to choose a take car versus what goes home and I could actually buy groceries with and so that's what you're saying those those officers and I would too uniform officer wants wants that money going home um I just think when when I'm not going to say I'm Pro Union but I am for how we can negotiate and make this a winwin for them understanding this city size uh our tax base that's very important but when we bring a union in the union saying well guess what you guys aren't getting the sh the fair share of your pie and which they are for the size of our city I we could probably do better but stuff like take take home car I could see some some cons to that and I don't know do we have a uh any representative on our side that that's GNA talk our points that we kind of like bought out I'm just asking because I thought that's what you said earlier because I don't want to sound like I'm the attorney yes um we have uh met internally and the City attorney is here present to speak to some of the uh issues concerning the contract and we also have uh a labor attorney on uh Zoom that's available to respond to any questions that you might have as well um um Chief Shaw is also here in the audience s Miss W this question because I remember Miss West saying this when we talked about the aeronautical miles we were kind of like unsure how far that reaches so we were asked to okay 30 30 a nautical miles is that correct term 30 a miles I a miles yes sir 30 a miles which it wasn't clearly defined so if we go oh yeah that's that's a good point which it really wasn't defined I don't think that's fair to bring that to the board as we thinking 30 miles and we don't know exactly how far that is I would like before we uh really get that thorough consideration that we actually know exactly how far that is that the officers will be taking the cars out reason why is because I think our officers work 10 or 12 hour shifts so for example if an officer work all night long get off at 6:00 a.m. after working exhausting shift because I know they work hard and it's it's a struggle to stay up all night you've been a form officer you know that and so now you have almost an hour drive home that brings about liabilities for an exhausted or uh tired officer to drive um could be distractions deer on the road stuff like that so there those are liabilities that concerns me with the length of the drive and stuff of that nature so uh the amount of times that they're behind the wheel of a car going back and forth to work which as long as they're in that car the liability lies on that individual or the city I'm asking I'm asking you you would have to go to case law um however U we did ask for there's a provision in the contract and in statute for there to be Insurance um I have always advised officers in the past to have an insurance riter on their own policy and the reason was the previous Doctrine under the law is usually you've got What's called the dangerous instrument ality rule which is if you own a vehicle if you're the registered owner and somebody driving it gets in a crash you're responsible because you own the vehicle but there was a superior Doctrine in the law that said you can't sue the government essentially and there were cases where police officers who were off duty going home in the car because they weren't engaged in business at that time got into a crash uh they got sued and in the particular case I'm I'm I'm talking about I I can't provide you the name they also tried to sue the city because officers don't have any money you can't you can get a judgment against them but that's worthless and they sued the city and the court said no you know you can't sue you can't sue the government in that situation so um that being said we do have a provision asking for insurance um and again we went through the negotiations so understand we didn't ask for more money than as far as pay than what the city was offering um we thought that was that was fair and essentially the the two things we asked for again was was the the mileage and we can provide it an exact map if need be basically you can go on um some of these websites like Google Earth and just put in 30 miles from a point and it will give you precisely uh I can tell you another Alterna native way of doing that which happens in some contracts is they spell out actual roads um no further north than this road no further south than that road so we're flexible on how you do it the idea of the the 30 map miles was a obviously it does help the officers but B um it it is for somebody who's who's close if the difference is they get a take-home car or they don't it can mean the difference between you getting the officer or not so did you did you prepare and bring that map to show us because that's what we're negotiating right um did I bring that map no sir but I can provide that um that never came up in negotiations it was never asked I mean it's a it's a fairly um standard practice to pull up a map and do do arrange miles air miles I could understand I understand it's a difference so I would like to because you're asking for 30 a mile so it is a difference between the 30 a miles and road miles I corre yes sir oh yeah it it could be it could be quite a big difference yes sir yep um and that being said in negotiations that's what we're asking for if the city says no we'd rather live with with something else some other thing we're open to it okay any additional question I think I asked the clarity so I just I would like to see that and know yes sir uh the distance that would actually help make this decisions yes so mil will Encompass commissioner mcal do you have any questions um it was asked and answered um my concern is is the mileage and you know the in being in the line of duty afterward going home the safety so it was asked an answer but I I do want to know about the the mileage what he's asking and if Commissioners if you recall um Chief Shaw did provide a graph um during one of our previous meetings basically breaking down every employees's name whether they were in admin or field training on call 247 sergeant and uh broke it down into whether or not they had to take vehicle uh mapped out the distance in road miles which commissioner Jones as you've noted is different from Air Miles uh there were three that exceeded um the 30 miles within road miles calculation but within the distance in air miles that folded in the entire force um just barely on some of them but it it encompassed the entire force which is why I believe you had to ask for the air miles um I can have this uh Miss CR if you don't have accessibility to this chart that was provided I can make a copy real quick and I circulated to the commission if you don't happen to have that you like that yes please I don't have mine with me and with that said um that was the one point uh the other two points were the um just cause for termination and tinted windows and are those two issues things we have any issue with or any discussion about I want to go back to the 30 miles she said what pulled in the entire force was it the air miles or yeah the the air miles um road miles will always be a a shorter distance than Air Miles because roads because they curve and you make turns 30 miles circle is always going to be more than 30 miles road so is she saying the air miles allow for more officers to take cars home the air miles allows for all the current officers to take um Vehicles home which is as she pointed out in the negotiations that was our goal was to to go look all of our current officers let's at least let them um be able to take their vehicle home so that's that's where that came up with and at this point there are three offices that fall into that category is that what you just said Mr B yes and there's a potential for four okay yes so so we talking reasion just so that I know what you're talking about what what departments are in your region that you represent right now um I Coastal Florida PBA we're we're owned Lock Stock and Barrel by Florida PBA Florida PBA is I believe their Highway Patrol their Department of Corrections and there are numerous other agencies throughout the state my area with Coastal Florida PBA um We've Got U Fernandina Beach Atlantic Beach um St Augustine um some of the Flagler County Sheriff's the Corrections Officers um it's the coastal counties from Fernandina all the way as far south is Fort Pierce um the only ones kind of Inland are you here at patka and alsoo which is where the University of Central Florida is um uh Daytona Beach Police Department um is one of them um there's there's little bargaining units in a many different agencies but in this area um patka the Corrections Officers and TD Police Department police departments um city of Holly Hill patka police depart I mean um St Augustine Police Department are the two closest along with Daytona Beach and then everything else is further north or south from that now with those we did get a uh some statistics and how some other municipalities made this program work and you mentioned it you mentioned about insurance that officers have to get a rou with their own private insurance company and have insurance on their two and from the work some agencies have the officers pay a monthly uh stifen they pay the city stifen I haven't heard any of those kind of proposals in your presentation um did you I thought that was provided T us before again that's my first time speaking to him yeah it it's done differently everywhere and you're correct many agencies will say if you're within X number of miles it's free some of them will say if you live in the jurisdiction you can ride it around anytime other agencies say you can only take it to and from work other ones say you know you can take it to and from work if you're within X miles if you're outside that then you pay extra stien um to do it that's that's that's a fairly common way that that some places do it um it there there's Untold ways you can always go to um a Google Search Coastal Florida police Evan Association right on our website we list all of the contracts for the different agencies we represent you can see how it's done in all of those agencies any additional questions I just want to admit this publicly this is my first uh negotiation to be in with a union and have say so and at this point uh in any kind of negotiation I like to see it and know exactly what we're negotiating uh a negotiation to me is not a proposal an exception uh there's some working room and you even mentioned that there's working room with it so that's why I'm asking you these questions of what the proposal is okay we it's basically two things or three and I haven't seen any concessions or any proposals even from I mean I guess our attorney I don't know did we did we rebutt anything or we just here's what's on the table we take it or no I'm um I can tell you that there are quite a few things um that we asked for um and again what the way the way it happened was when got voted in okay we've got to do a contract and looked at the St August for ask contract were numerous things that that they asked for and the city said no um I will tell you that negotiations were cordial but the city had no problem telling no to us um and the bottom line is this under good old chapter 447 if we can't agree on a term or condition of employment the last step is you the city Commission getting to say this is how it's going to be for the next year so you know we we did go back and forth we have for more than the 30 miles originally when it for example on the on the on the the the mileage we asked for a joining counties well that's huge they said no surprise surprise I mean it's it's classic negotiation where sometimes we'll ask for more than we know we'll get knowing that they're going to come back and we something where we can all live and they said no to adjoining counties yes sir they said no to adjoining counties because it's it's too big an area when you consider if you do that if you do it yeah it's and I I didn't even think about just how far if you go to the farthest point in the joining County that's a lot oh the farthest point because I was going to say yeah every county line is within 10 30 miles oh I'm G to say yeah we we didn't ask for it anywhere within the county we asked for the adjoining counties now some places like Fernandina Beach although you won't see it in the contract because it was done in what we call anou we negotiated because they came to us and said hey we want a bigger area what they wanted to do was be able to recruit more of people from Jacksonville Sheriff's Office so they go anybody who's in the adjoining County um of of basically anybody in Nassau County which is where they're at um and then I think like 50 miles into from the police department so 30 miles is is like I said it's kind of a Norm from what I've seen but again it is done differently in several different dur stations I have question okay commission questions how do we want to proceed that any further discussion Miss West how we have at this point okay so okay Mr Bill I was simply going to say that uh if there were no other questions no other comments uh from the union representative that was the primary purpose and objective of I was going to ask for adjournment of the meeting in a second since I was waiting for the silence to ensue which it did um do we have a motion to adjourn Madame mayor before we adjourn may I ask if the executive session is still needed yes I go ahead M go we'll have to go if there is no objection no further negotiation on the contract then the commission is going to go into executive session um without public comment and without any sort of negotiation to well do you guys want to before you do that um because I did ask specific ask a specific ask about sh me exactly where 30 miles end and what we're talking about we talking about air mile um and we can't we can't go ahead and approve anything without that can that be pulled up pretty easily Miss I I mean I have Google Earth up I'm so sorry that I don't know how to do the air miles but if someone will walk me through it or wants to come over and take the mouse they can do it that's exactly a suggestion I'm not I'm not saying it yet go ahead we can always have one more negotiation session and what you can do is in your in your shade meeting you can ad them what you want them to do and we can come to the table with a you know a map specific or like I said or you may give them advice of hey we want it to be within these you know streets or whatever we can go to negotiate one more time reach an agreement we'll sign sign it there and then yes later I thank you very much for thank thank you for thank so do we want to adjourn this meeting going into executive session to make those kind of requests basically motion to are we adjourning or are we doing this I'm sorry if you're doing this then you're not adjourning right okay sorry because we gotta go next door for the executive session right I understand so let's do this first that's fine I think there was listening to suggestion I guess because nobody we coming back so you can do that do that be prepare for the next time I move that wej this meeting second we have a motion of second all in favor and as far as the executive session is concerned are we going to wait for this data and then go to Executive sessions we need to make a decision do you want to say save any let me do a few things and we'll next why we moving for the executive session do you want me to answer that or you want yes please okay um well this meeting is a Jour can I technically answer to the entire board okay um this is a public meeting of the city commission so we as your staff would anticipate there being multiple members of the public being here CU public meetings we anticipate the public being here so in discussions with the mayor and the manager and and the City attorney we felt it best that if there's multiple members of the public that we not kick them out of the building considering it is a public building and that it's easier to move the city commission to another site than to move our public but then given that we don't have anybody I guess that we don't right so can I end the YouTube now please and because meeting is a Jour thank you yes e e e e