e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e celebration on March 14th 2024 commissioner Campbell and I are going to pass out the certificates and announce the students of the month and take some photos after jelenia bir [Music] congratulations Dax hay children's reading Center chter School Gman Garcia Hill Crest Academy Drew Haden James a long Elementary pendra l Kelly Smith Elementary and I may mispronounce this so forgive me Bruce Palos melon Learning Center pre Marcus will Marcus Wilson Mel and learning center k for 12 shantania Williams MOS Elementary sorry if I mispronounce your [Music] name de Maria Passmore Paca Junior Senior High Penelope Wells P Baptist Academy Autumn J Pam Academy of Arts and Sciences thank you everybody um we're going to take a group photo you want to do it with your we want to do it with the instructors teachers first if they can come up please you want to do the if we can get one quick photo with Commissioners and students together come on closer that's e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e meeting is about to come to order we're going to start with the invocation led by Chaplan malberry and then a pledge of allegiance led by commissioner boram please stand good evening everyone father again we thank you for another day thank you for your love and your kindness certainly for the multitude of your tender mercy God we thank you for how you blessed us all day long brought us together again for another session pray God that you will bless the leadership of this dasis we ask God for the wisdom that necessary do the business of this city we pray God for our city we pray God that you would look on us and help us develop a strategy God that we might be able to affect this city in a positive way God that your glory will be revealed in all we do it is in Jesus name we pray thank God Amen alance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all roll call Miss CR please thank you so much commissioner Tammy mccal is not present at this time for the record commissioner Justin Campbell present commissioner will Jones pres commissioner Rufus boram present mayor Robbie CA present we have a quorum in the chambers Madam am thank you move on to approval of minutes from February 22nd 202 24 do we have a motion so move second second all in favor I I any opposition thank you we're going to move on to public recognitions and presentations our first Proclamation is Florida government Finance professionals week March 18th through the 22nd Miss CR joining us Madame mayor we do have members of the wh of the um Finance professional Roberta MCA mayor of the city of Paka together with the members of the Paca City commission do hereby endorse and proclaim the week of March 28th sorry March 18th to March 22nd 2024 as Government Finance professionals week within the city of Paka and we extend all of our appreciation to all government Finance professionals throughout the state and here in the city of Paka for their hard work dedication and Leadership have a motion so move second okay so um you know just to mention uh finances the heartbeat of any organization if you do not know where your money is you're kind of lost and probably won't make it so therefore 1907 uh there was an institution created and it ended up being called the governmental Finance organ officials Association we are members of that as we stand for sound fiscal viability for the city of Taca thank you my B my know up here our next Proclamation is for women's History Month M FR thank you again um Madame mayor together with us today are members of the Paca Women's Club Roberto MCA mayor of the city Palaca together with the members of the Palaca City commission do hereby endorse and proclaim the month of March in 2024 as women's History Month in the city of Palaca and we urge all citizens to pay tribute to the remarkable women who have shaped our past present and future to continue CH championing gender equality diversity and inclusion ensuring a brighter and more Equitable for future for all thank you Mo do we have a motion so move all in favor I I any opposition thank you all right okay thank you so much for this Proclamation um I am Aaron Hughes president-elect of the Women's Club uh gfwc Paka Women's Club and I'm actually joined here with our uh District 4 director Elizabeth Van rensburg and our club president Lucy May um receiving this Proclamation for women's History Month acknowledges the extraordinary journey and contributions of women everywhere this month serves as a reminder of the resilience strength and determination demonstrated by women throughout history often in the face of adversity and systemic barriers may this Proclamation serve as a catalyst for ongoing dialogue action and advocacy in support of women's rights and empowerment and let us unite in our commitment to amplify women's voices dismantling stereotypes and fostering environments where all individuals regardless of gender can reach their full potential um at gfwc we have a a saying a motto of sorts that says unity and diversity so uh we appreciate you acknowledging this month and its importance thank you and you forgot your Proclamation our next Proclamation is a memorium of Florida state senator Betty s h Miss CR thank you Madame mayor thank you so much H former vice mayor Mary Lawson Brown for being with us today um Madame mayor I present to you and to the commission a proclamation in memorium of Senator Betty asor be proclaimed within the city of Paca that we honor the memory of Senator Betty asendorf and recognize her exceptional exceptional contributions to the city of Paka and the State of Florida we extend our sincere condolences to her family including her husband King holzendorf Jr her children grandchildren friends and all who mourn their her loss with the assurance that Senator holen dorf's impact on our community will continue to reverberate for generations to come thank you do we have a motion to approve second all in favor any opposition thank you um Betty H and do was a terrific woman she was a friend of mine so I feel like I can talk about her a little bit for a long time when she first ran it was I think in 1988 she became a state representative and went on to be a um State uh a senator and the senator she was looked out not only for Jacksonville but she looked out for Paka and Ola puam County for a while she had us in her District but they redistrict and we as a out there representative for us but if there was anything we ever needed if we needed back up to get grants if we needed money if we needed help and she took my famous car rides I don't know if you all know about it but anybody who came to time and had money got in my car and I took them all the places I thought that we had done really well with grants and monies and then I said here's my hand we we need something well we took her around my youngest son and I and when we got to book a field and Auditorium we told her the history of it and most of you all would not know it but it was the focal part place for Central Academy their basketball games were played inside their football and and baseball games were played outside and so it was a focus for it but not only that have young lady with me con constant belon Snider her dad was one you see on the on the mirror her Granddad that played The Cotton Club in New York and he was friends with count B say Duke Ellington some some of y'all old enough to know who I'm talking about when they got they played the chilling circuit and when they got there when they got in the area what they did was they'd come here and got to be the place to come to and that old Auditorium got to be the place to have it as it got old they tore it down but when Betty saw the place and I told her the history about it she said what can I do I said we always can use money she went back and put us in the budget and we got $50,000 to upgrade that Park um the facility you see out there now if you ride is what the the community got together and decided they wanted there she made me promise her that she they would put lights so kids could play later and longer and fix the basketball courts the last time she was in our area she invited me to lunch with somebody who and I can't remember what river group but they came to talk about draining put uh the dam and the that that's been a source spot for a long time and she knew that uh I had had gone up and talked to Governor Lon child she got me an appointment to do one-on-one with him to let him know why puam County needed to keep that Dam and what it meant to this town and we talked to this lady and when we left I don't think she did anything with the lady to to drain the to push the draining of the dam so she really was in our corner and she was always a lady always looking out for us and I'm Thank you very much for doing this and I'm ask uh my city commission to probably name that Pavilion after her we should have done it sooner I don't know why we didn't but I think she should be in our community so young women this is women's month would know what women what women can do I'm not some needed money and she was with we're going to move on to city manager and administrative reports covid sidewalks update remove sections is that thank you madam mayor and there are many things things I would love to say about um the honor and privilege that I have to serve in this role and things that I would like to update about how remarkably welcoming the community has been and the fact that moving in people have come from all over my street and welcomed me and uh brought pies and and the like um but in deference to the number of things that we have on the agenda here I'm going to defer talking about those things and those types of updates so that we can get to the business at hand here and so I would like to ask uh to come up to give us a soft uh software I mean a sidewalk update um the assistant city manager Mr Griffith thank you Mr B Sunny can it's not in the PowerPoint it's in the agenda packet Miss grants thank you thank you so Commissioners um I think you're all aware we have a Department of Economic Opportunity now known as the Department of Commerce grant for covid related sidewalk improvements throughout portions of the city and as CR is getting an image up on the screen as part of the environmental review uh we were given notice that the sidewalks that are depicted in yellow highlighter are within a distance buffer from a fuel storage facility and they're no longer eligible for grant program funds so there will be a public hearing most likely at your next available meeting uh where we notice the public about the removal of these sidewalks from the grant scope and we will be able to proceed with the remainder of the scope of work at this time we're being advised by the granting agency and the grant administrator to go ahead and app properti for the remainder of the work and as we near the end of that phase we can look at adding additional areas back in So at the public hearing that will be an opportunity to identify some optional alternate areas any questions anybody any questions yes I go commission so so the question is U the sections that's in in yellow those are the ones that's going to be removed and so once it's confirmed um and other areas identify it will account for those sections that the yellow sections that we're not going to lose right yeah it may not be a um an equal linear footage replacement based upon where the bids come back when we go to construction um but those areas if we desire to replace those with the wider sidewalks we'll need to identify local funds at a later date could you enlarge that pigon or or give us the identify I want a disclaimer it's my first time seeing additions to the um packet wasn't able to get them I came up here wasn't available okay if you scroll up Miss CR there actually um up up not down thank you there you go these are the segments that were removed 15 and kind of heard about P this the reason again please so these sidewalks are within a required buffer area to a fuel Farm facility so there's a fuel storage facility at the corner of North 11th and Washington Street and the grant funds cannot be utilized within that buffer zone so I think it's key to point out if you don't mind yes sir uh that the grant funds cannot be used for that based on this requirement however that doesn't mean that we can't you utilize other funds to address those issues any additional questions commission B yes I just like to um I guess get ask for the additional funds what it would cost for the areas that's going to be removed to see if we have another like a mechanism to uh fund those sources since it's already costed out so if we do it at some later point the price point might be much higher so um as we got this defined in this I like to see what other funding sources we have so what we can complete all of that work that's been already planned out already so that would be my suggestion thank you anything else commission just to point out that all these locations locations are on the north side of Reed Street uh number one and number two we have already started some work on sidewalks um on the south side of Reed Street doing the 8 foot sidewalks the ones that we've already started where is that funding where would that funding come from where did it come from excuse me so we have not started any of the 8ot sidewalk construction at all so on South 8th Street what was that sidewalk construction what part what program was that from that was from a USDA fund for a downtown uh project downtown project yes sir any additional questions so at your public hearing uh we'll have some uh additional funding areas that you can look at and we'll bring back the budget uh so you'll have an idea of what you need to be looking to allocate to do this project thank you thank you um update on Hank Ryan Pac Mr McMillan good evening commission D McMillan Public Works director um I believe I'd sent a presentation to Sunny um she's got some pictures for us pull it up but at brief um we've got an ETA for the lighting improvements for the park uh we have an an anticipated installation date at or around September from fpnl um they're procuring those materials now it's on [Music] order and go to the second slide [Music] Sun that was the previous one so yep that one um so those lights at the blue points throughout the part should be installed at are around September U will come back with a more refined timeline as they get a delivery date confirmed from their supplier you go to the next slide please um so we've installed the exercise equipment and A Accessible pad around that equipment uh we are awaiting the uh installation of some fencing to delineate the area um and protect it of a fall zone off the back side of the equipment at the top of the hill and um we have received the bid the sole bid for Design Services for the single occupancy restroom at the park so I was not able to get that on the commission meeting tonight but um I do want to take a little bit of time to vet that contractor a little bit but their proposed cost was about $39,000 39,500 um for Design Services for that restroom so at the next meeting we should have uh an item for you to consider so mayor yes go ahead commissioner so with the design are we taking in consideration the request that I made at the previous commission meeting with regards to to relocating where it it's tentative tentatively going to a more visible location um for those that may be utilizing the restro yes sir so th this this bid was for the services so essentially they would work with us to come up with a design and location that we felt would be the best application for the park U most likely the discussion with with the request that was made and in consideration for lighting as well and AD and Ada concerns uh at the park thank I have a question yes thank um can you go back I I have um a print out here if you would like so on on the fencing and I noticed where they had the exercise equipment so is it recommended where the recommendation came from with fening within that area because it's going to be a it's going to stop the free flowing within the park you see might blue well um if you allow me to approach I'll I'll give you this picture real quick so that top picture there that's at the top of the hill where there was previously I believe a settling tank so at the back edge of that there's a drop off of three to four feet that's the area we're trying to fence off just to keep you know exercising you get you active we we just don't want to have that line ability so just around that edge correct oh I get yeah I did have a question about you go e at this point would be it's probably an appropriate time to have a workshop at the Jenkins Community Center specifically for discussing the department of state project update because we're getting ready to commence a lot of the larger trades uh as well as future rentals uh be it for actual programming or be it to additional nonprofits or community members and the building program um and the naming discussion so if you're agreeable to it we would probably look out in the next month or so and find uh an agreeable time uh to hold a workshop I'm in agreement anybody in agree with that I think it's so are there any current lease agreements currently no negative all right so it won't be until we have that Workshop thank you that's yes that's the intent yes if I could Madame mayor the I I think it's important to distinguish between moving forward with the uh work required in order to do the roof uh the it work and the hbac separate from a programmatic plan this allows us to be able to use the work that we're talking allows us to be able to utilize the building but it does not define what the programmatic plan is for how we're going to use the building and so the idea of having a workshop in order to clarify what uh commission's interests are and um desires are for the programming of that facility is is what we're talking about uh I think that will be helpful for giving staff Direction moving forward now we have had some interest in uh leasing various areas temporarily uh until programmatic plan uh is in place but we have not executed any of those plans um for any short-term leases we would ask for um the direction of commission on any leasing be it short term one month or two months or three months before we move forward with anything on that do we have anything that's pending as far as anyone who've expressed interest of that um because I know in our previous meetings we have um expressed the interest of making sure that we get that building occupied not only occupied um with our staff but making that building building uh user friendly um we know what transpired and we feel like if that would have been occupied that would not have transpired or could have possibly waved that so we're looking to make sure that in the event that we can go ahead and start getting some occupancy um I'm interested in making it go for it's set for so long it's time to bring some life to that building outside of our staff so the answer to your question would be yes we have had uh individuals Express uh entities express interest in doing so we have not executed like I said uh to commissioner Jones anything as of yet and before we move forward with that we'd like to get additional direction from the commission any additional questions Mr thank you what I do have a question what additional information would you request from us uh because if you don't request it we don't know what you sure so what we would want to know is for what period of time um would you consider uh acceptable are we talking about long-term short short term if we're talking about short term what term uh you would like us to to look at um is the interest in having Advanced payment payment up front versus payment as you go um those types of particulars uh uh our direction that we would seek um what spaces would we want to potentially have available for leasing um if it's everything that we have then that's great or if there are particular areas that you would like us to follow focus on then that's again the direction that we would like to receive commissioner B yes I just think um we need to get that in wrting in terms of what what you're requesting from us so that we'll have a a clear idea as to what we need to be thinking about and how we sh how we're shaping that also I mean it will also uh think about the people who may want to occupy those spaces is that uh you know we we don't want to continue get the same uh en or type of entity uh taking up multiple um spaces so we need to understand and know the people who are interested in getting those um spots that's available and um then that'll help provide whatever services or programs that um we may put time frames on as and and allow for use of Happ so that's just my suggestion sure and and we can put that together and and likely have that in our next meeting um giving that additional direction to staff uh would be helpful I mean ultimately the leasing of the facility at least on a short-term basis is an administrative function that my office would be responsible for but I want to make sure whatever direction that we go in uh is aligned with the interests and and desires of the commission mayor I think um kind of piggybacking off of what uh commissioner borm stated if we are um made to know who is Avail who wants to occupy those spaces it probably would give us a better idea of how we want to set the terms you may have a big you may have an organization or someone that may want to be longterm and you may have someone that is looking for a smaller space so I think that kind of stuff should be tied into what it is that they desire to do in the facility and how long they would like to be in the facility of course we're looking for longevity but in the event that they're looking for a short-term space I think that should be made an option as well so I don't want to limit us um to a Time certain if there's flexibility in there for us and I I appreciate that that that would be great direction to have um so as we pull it together and look for direction at our next meeting those are items that we would ask for the commission to weigh in on uh so that we know how to move forward I would be disinclined to indicate the uh the names of specific uh entities but we can talk in terms of the parameters of how long for what purpose uh what function they serve and what they're uh as I mentioned the longevity of I mean if they're interested their names need to come before us it's I mean it's not going to change the fact if we know who they are who we know who I mean they're looking to occupy we want to make sure those that are looking to occupy that facility they are trustworthy and all of those and if we just get what kind of services they're providing that that may do them an injustice I mean that may do us an injustice by not knowing who they are so I want to make sure I want to if you're looking for direction my direction would be to diverge their names well I can appreciate that and uh I will say on a professional level I understand but again at the request if you're looking for direction and we're looking to make sure that those people who occupy occupy that facility is in with a good standing again even if they're at that meeting we want to make sure we know who anybody can put on paper and look good but we want to make sure that those who occupy are vetted from so I would again recommend the name and sure and I'm sorry go ahead he's let go ahead you please go ahead you are first sure and so if if they are willing to be recognized and that would be great but I would say since this is an administrative function your concerns are are extremely valid concerns but that is the weight that you put on my office to make sure that they execute that the weight that we put on your office to know who wants to occupy a facility that we own yes yes on an administrative level maybe you can ask them and if they really don't want to reveal their name maybe they just don't really want to lease and that that might just ask them as a courtesy if they're willing to share that inform absolutely how are we giving a court to to someone to reveal their names of a facility that we want to occupy that we on it's not making sense to me commissioner Jones um my ask is simple what I like to uh point out ahead of this thing is for folk that have a business in the city whether they have to uh rent or lease at a facility for example they have a cook shop on St John's Avenue and they have to pay Market rents I don't want someone to be able to come to Jenkins middle school and rent a space or less and sell a product so that's what we're going to run into when you start we need to have perimeters stating that's not what we're here for right it's a community center but it would hurt a competitor that is actually paying Market rents if we allow someone else to come and occupy the community center and sell a product for less or they over head is less selling the same product so that correct in that entrepreneurial spirit I think we need to actually consider those things so I just want to say that M PA yes I think we have to um there's a number of things that we really need to consider as it relates to who's coming in and whatever whatever background because we're going to have youth there we're going to have maybe some El we we just need to know basic you know basically that everything is properly Ved in that um those people who are occupying those spaces are not uh putting people other people in Jeopardy in any in any way whether safety or whatever else it may be so I think we just probably need to have a a a quick Workshop as it relates to that so we can has some of those things out and um so that's what I would kind of recommend we can do something along those lines we can hash it out that's what I was suggesting we wait and discuss all these particulars at a workshop instead of trying to eying it out at this time and moment for the sake of expediency in this agenda and if it is the direction of the commission not to uh to lease unless they are willing to divulge and if they're not willing to divulge then they wouldn't be eligible if that is the preference of commission so any additional questions discussion thank you I'm now going to open the floor to public comment these are general public comments this is not agenda specific spefic um and so I first have Miss kitchens alra kitchens 1027 South 12th Street Paca Florida I read the headlines in today's Paca daily news about Mr Bill I was I was I don't know if he requested his GPS removed or he had it removed but he had secur uh concerns about him and his safety of him and his family I would point out to the commission to remind you that previous city manager Don Holmes who was also the previous Attorney At a GPS located on his city- owned vehicle he was in way more danger than Mr Bell as a presumably former police officer is because Mr uh Holmes was with the State's Attorney's office he was a prosecuting attorney and he Pro for 11 years he prosecuted criminals he got many many threats during his time and if he felt safe I don't see any reason to have Mr Bell's GPS removed however I would suggest this to make it equal to everybody in the city staff if you do agree with Mr Bell's GPS to be removed and stay removed then I would request respectively that you remove all the other GS uh locators on all the other City staff members thank you thank you um Miss Duke yes please give you a name and address for the Reon keep it to minutes I'm Vicky Duke I'm with I'm at 105 Carriage Terrace pela Florida and I'm with the Art League um we I'm here just to highlight a few things um in the past in the recent past when we had a lease with the city we um we got the community to help us out with the issues that were going on with the house and not only did we see that we got it tinted but we paid to have someone replace the rotted wood that was on the side of the house where the air conditioners were and we had it paint that part painted we e e e e e e e e e e e e have the author and photographer for a the book spires in the sun about the um Carpenter Gothic Episcopal churches in Northeast Florida uh which of course you know we also have buildings that are carpenter Gothic that are not Episcopal but they did a lot of research on them and took pictures in where other towns are celebrating having one of these churches we actually have two we have St Mark's Episcopal downtown and we also have St I'm sorry St Mary's Episcopal Church which is on uh St John's Avenue and a lot of people get that confused because there's a St John's uh Avenue St Mary's Church up in Green Cove but we have our very own so uh with a you know great deal of History so everyone is invited thank you is there anybody here for public comment the things that are not on the agenda please give your name and address for the record and fill out a yellow card afterward Gale powers5 Stewart Road East platka I'm here just to let you know about the Tillman house that we got a copy from Eddie cutright of the violation from the code and VI code and violations um and we're correcting things as much as we can the S vines that were on the side of the house were sprayed and cut the sign has been replaced with a uh new sign um we have a contractor that's working with us to work on the support So wood supports and um painting them and we are reattaching ing the trim um that's all that we're able to do we're not capable of painting the house or the siding that replacing the siding that's rotted but I apologize that we weren't at other meetings with the CRA but we weren't aware we are aware now and we will do our best to take care of things thank you thank you is there anybody else for public comment seeing none we'll close public comment I want to commission staff response to any concerns issues yes ma'am ma'am what's your name again with you mention about your okay we've got it thank you G powers okay and U just want to reach out okay I'm sorry Mr Mr B yeah okay thank you we're going to move on to the consent agenda um I had a request to pull a and d is there any other items to be pulled e any other [Music] items and you got three there together h h i and J we just want to get some clarification some clarification I'm sorry did you say i h i and J they I think they all kind together I don't think J was included then okay H and I you said H and I so at this point G yeah we have a if I'm correct d e g h i corre make I'll make a motion that we accept the consent agenda excluding items a b e g h and I second we have Motion in second all in favor I I any opposition thank you a name Mr Griffin thank you mayor Sunny do we have the capability of putting the PowerPoint up or no if not that's okay um you want the the the one with everything yes ma'am hold on Commissioners uh you also have this uh in front of you so if you will go to page six starting on slide 11 thank you sonny would you like me to read the caption please resolution number 2024 r45 a resolution authorizing the execution of Florida Department of Environmental Protection Grant agreement LPA 0602 for pable water Mainline replacement in the amount of 7 million in providing for scrier SS thank you um so M CR if you can get that PowerPoint up again so Commissioners there are three areas that were referen than this Appropriations request uh generally uh they are the Northeast Northwest and a small section AB budding the Wilson Cypress Mills site so we've got some slides here to depict those areas the first is the Northeast um as you can see we've drawn a red box generally around that where that area is sunic can advance the next slide Mr Griffin just for reference if you could kind of identify those streets in those areas everybody don't know what we're supp in Cyprus just for the I'll do my best that would be a long list and maybe this this area will help um so as you can see on this area this comes straight from the plan set so anything that you see a black box around is an area that we will be working so generally Main Street from First Street all the way to nor 11th North 11th Street some of the East West Roads uh Bronson Eagle Street Washington uh as well as Madison and Olive and the north south runs between Reed and Main Street this will complete all the water lines in that area as you can see we already completed in 2017 the historic district any questions about this area no next slide please the next area is what we generally refer to as the Northwest area so this is bounded by the railroad tracks Reg Street and then going out to the Paca Housing Authority uh to the west and then to the railroad tracks or Wetland to the north next slide please all right and again on this aial you can see some areas that were completed in the 1990s with other Community Development block grant um funds but the areas depicted with the black boxes are where we will be working again the the major areas here are Madison Street Bronson Street um North 20th Street and what looks to be Washington Excuse me yes and ocean the third area is Wilson Cypress Mills and it's a lot simpler uh it is a short leg of waterline that we have not completed on River Street mainly because as you know there's been a lot of discussion about this site for some time now and we don't know the exact configuration of the intersecting roadways which will affect the valves as well as the hydrant location so we'll have a couple of years to execute this project and this will be a phase that we push out into a a later year any questions you have any questions M Jones I'm glad you identified those areas because it wasn't identified in the cap here is uh a um and as for as the prioritizing do you have a plan of what would be done first so right now uh the grant agreement is in front of you uh the engineering is done for the Northeast and Northwest area it's been done for some time your Grant admin staff is already in the process of having conversations with the grant tour the Florida dep Department of Environmental Protection about transmitting those documents for approval so that we can move quick to the procurement phase uh verbally they've said there's not going to be a requirement for an environmental review so we're expecting sometime probably before summer to be able to put both of those areas out to bid that is the Northeast and Northwest any additional questions that be over a year from now could be in construction this calendar year commissioner are there any plans for any go ahead I'm sorry all you go ahead and complete your that's all I have for your not for that area B are there any overlapping areas that we had already um planned out before because some of those are hitting in some of those other areas that we've um set aside funds for from the arpa funds so are any of those areas overlapping could be overlapping with this particular project here so there's significant overlap and that's part of the reason that we're advancing the construction as fast as we are because the water lines go beneath the surface and then you have funds associated with raise and Co sidewalks and a couple other Grant projects which are going to do more of what we would call site restoration work so there is some overlap this project does help the budget for the raise program because it was anticip ipated that was there was going to be an excess of about a million dollars of portable work within that area so this is freeing up some money when you will have a conversation at a later date once we select an engineer for the raise project to talk about how to allocate those dollars to additional work items such as Street resurfacing Street reconstruction storm water repairs sanitary repairs and sidewalks I do have an addition um Vice former VI vice mayor Brown I along with another group we walked those areas of North 14th 15th Street um as she gave a tour and questions came up that I couldn't answer so I'm glad that we just brought that back up we did work with the Community Development block gr on South 14th 15th Street when can we expect that work to come over to the north side because it's pass du so I because she's in audience I wanted to make sure we could say it today and U kind of put that information out there yeah so we have secured funding from the Department of Economic Opportunity now known as the Department of Commerce uh under some of their mitigation funding for North 14th and North 15th and some of those intersecting East West roadways right now we're still in the environmental review it's getting ready to close out as soon as that happens we'll move from a 60% design set to a 100% we'll have to come back before the commission uh before we go out to bid just to give you an update but we're probably well over six months from actually procuring a Contractor on that project any commission C have any questions okay thank you um any questions um I do have a public um for a public comment I'm sorry go ahead Mr Bill can you discuss what I asked you in reference to the raise project I don't know that was part of the slide presentation we can so there is a depiction of the rais project area Miss currence could you put it up or I could just it's the last slide I please no it's not the last slide anymore it's number 18 yeah yep there you go so this is the ray project area in addition to this there are some Transportation Hub improvements uh that are conceived of so we will still be extending the platform there'll be additional parking improvements and some sidewalk connectivity and lighting improvements associated with the the Transportation Hub but every road that you see here um The Narrative the description to the federal government when we secured this funding was that there would be some level of streetscape work and it depends on the condition of the road and the priority that the commission sets once we get to that stage in the project so you could have reconstruction could be a resurfacing could be just sidewalk replacement could be Landscaping the corridor uh could be infrastructure improvements and repairs or any combination thereof depending on the condition and the priority that you set well as we put money in the budget to resurface some of those streets that's highlighted um and I thought we put it out for bid or at least try to find out what how much that would cost scope of work so what do we have on that yep Mr McMillan M CR if you'd bring that slideshow back up go down to the next slide down one more so as we previously approved with chw we've begun the initial geotechnical work um for some of the the streets that were selected within that area um so what that would do and what you authorized was the completion of some preliminary estimates for that for them to come back with proposals at a later date for a final design so to date we've completed the vendor has completed site visits GE technical fieldwork and right now they're preparing a draft for our review and they'll be conducting qaqc on that with discussions with us um you should be seeing at least a work product on that on the meeting at the 11th um there is another slide I believe further down in this program is craned maybe it's further up I there was a nice little road map regardless of that we're in the first stage of the actual resurfacing program there so there's plenty of time for us to be able to either select um different areas or or if there's other overlap that we want to kind of Advance or pull back we can um again you'll have a multitude of opportunities to select um or or change um directives all right and that money is coming from the OPA Farm I believe it was better place better place and and arpa and how much what's that total we going to spend over there believed remaining after the first execution of $71,000 is about $320,000 remaining are we going to rep place any of that $400,000 that we put on St John's Avenue project are we gonna did we talk about that commission um well was $800,000 in that project in the beginning and then we were told by the county that we we obligated to put some money into the St John's Avenue project to to complete it our portion but we never talked about replacing or reallocating the additional 400,000 back from whether it's better place or Opera um so I'm asking the commission at this point are we going to consider that bringing it that this 200 as we saw we had $250,000 uh allocated last fiscal year for Road res servicing and that just was enough to hit some intersections there was no significant work completed over there and so I don't think 400,000 is going to be a significant either and you know that too right roads are expensive so so what I'm saying is um we could put those projects up there and say we identified the roads but without the funding it's not going to happen so I'm asking commissioner mayor are we going to consider allocating more funding to make that happen and make it a significant project or just to say we did it or we started work over that what's the pleasure are we talking about can we can we explore that let me let me just say can we explore that commission commissioner B um before we allocate anything we just do we have the numbers do we have the complete numbers on what we currently have is already allocated alloc I mean it was it was it cost it was costed out right so right now on the 11th you should have estimates for the selections that were made in the four zones throughout the city for probable costs so that road resurfacing project so I think before we start allocating it we need to understand and know what the what the cost is going to be because if the money is not going to go far you you we need to make sure that we put the Monies to where we're going to get the the the best bank for the buck in terms of um impact to the area so we need to know what the numbers are so we can say okay well hey we want to allocate those funds and that would be my my suggestion go ahead okay anything further well never mind thank you Miss kitchens alra kitchens 1027 South 12th Street belac of Florida well I feel like I'm in the old bait and switch game here to quote from your memo under the item about the $7 million Grant awarded to replace potable water mains within the city specifically the development of Wilson Cyprus site and the downtown area 100% Grant founded funded what I heard tonight about it mostly being on all of those other areas I was going to point out that commissioner Jones always talks about how the north side is not taken care of and when I read this saying it's going to be specifically for the Wilson Cypress site here is your packet and that states it it is not made up the Wilson Cyprus site let me continue with what I was going to do in the first place I will digress slightly I heard Mr uh Griffith I think it was or maybe Mr Bill said a short water line on River Street and they're unsure of the intersection roadways well folks I can take you out there and I can tell you every intersection roadway I can tell you right now where the intersection Road intersection roadways are from 1876 to today I have no question about it so that doesn't wash with me pardon the pun anyway grant money should be spent on the city of Paca citizens number one waterline replacement like the all the projects you saw with the exception of one on River Street and then assuming this is referring to the Old Wilson Cyprus Mill site and not the Florida Furniture site with the exception of maybe one or two acres this is all River swamp consisting of over 300 ft of river water with no bottom and maybe a couple of feet a couple of Acres with a couple with a little bit of leaf debris floating on top of it the former owner John Turner a surveyor told me there was maybe two acres that you might be able to put something on up by the old Waterworks everything else you can't build on also the Wilson Cyprus site is in the 100-year flood plane as is the Wetland swamp Running From Wilson Cyprus all the way to Lundy that a private entity tried a few months ago to have the city get back from the state so they can enlarge their not so secret plans to put their massive harmful Cypress cve development that includes old Florida furniture and wi Wilson Cypress sites I asked an employer of the W River Water Management what happens when you fill in part of a 100-year flood plan he said it causes other places along the river to flood okay spending a part of this grant money and it's stated here that it's for especially for Wilson Cy this should be spent for the existing citizens of patka with the problems that Mr Jones always points out on the North side there's line water lines that haven't been finished and I was happy to see that this is including a lot of it but to include even a tiny bit of it for the advantage of a private developer for his personal gain and believe me if you don't know it at a f future time I'll give you a lecture on why residential brings nothing into a city and it takes a lot out so please think about this make sure what this grant money is going to be spent on that it is going to be spent where it's needed and not to further a developers money-making scheme on the city of Paca thank you thank you okay is there anybody else for public comment on item a consent agenda with that said do we have motion to approve well just one thing no I I mean I did see the specifically on there so if if that is uh that's the case we need to get clarification because I I saw that and I spoke with the city manager on that particular thing so just need some clarification before we move to a vote that's Mr yes uh thank you Madame mayor so that was not correct as it was stated and published before it has been modified and I asked uh the Mr Griffith the assistant city manager to clarify that in his presentation with regard to the Cypress Wilson the Wilson Cypress area so if you want to go on further and that's an accurate statement so it was just characterized wrong uh in the packet W specifically and uh just for reference when we write these Grant narratives um they're usually broadly descriptive so when we refer to downtown we're talking about generally everything from mosle to the river um and I will note uh this is kind of good news I think everybody knows this we've achieved well over 20 miles but these three areas are the last three puzzle pieces to complete all the water lines if you draw a line north and south from Mosley and extend to the river so everything between those two lines of demarcation will have been replaced since 1990 thank you all right thanks for the clarification I just want to make sure that the ER errors and Omission we will I guess consider that as error errors in Omission which would be correct thank you any additional comments questions do have a motion to approve motion motion to approve second all in favor I any opposition thank you on to item D Miss France the resolution please please Madame mayor presenting to you resolution 2024 r48 a resolution of the city Commission of the city of plaque authorizing the issuance of the issuers public and Improvement Revenue note series 2024 and principal amount not to exceed 3 million to finance acquisition and construction of a new Public Works building providing that the note shall be limited obligation of the assure payable from non adum revenues budgeted appropriated and deposited as provided here in providing for an effective date and providing for scers thank you Miss cot okay good evening mayor and commissioner so City man to all that's here uh the 3 million is uh for the purchase and the renovation of a building we uh we are we have secured the financing it's a a loan Revenue proceeds at 5.08% interest 20-year term our first payment will not be this year we make no payment at all this year uh the first payment will be October 2024 and the maximum annual Debt Service would be 244,000 however our first year it's only going to be 123,000 so of that 3 million the cost of the issuance of the loan itself was 39,500 and so $2,959 500 is actually going to be used for the purchase and the renovations um the breakout of how the 3 million we we do have a presentation as well but the breakout is that uh architectural cost is 227,000 the building purchase which we've completed is 1,624 th000 surveying is 10,000 and then the improvements be estimated at a mil 91 1, 91,000 so together that gives you an idea of what the $3 million uh is expected to be spended on and then uh just to give a little perspective um I believe the inclusion of the $3 million in the budget has been for the past maybe two three years but particularly in August 17 2023 it was discussed at length per the minutes uh to approve this $3 million in the budget uh October 12 2023 resolution r250 authorized the purchase of the building and the property also October 26 um the general ledger uh numbers were identified that we anticipated to receive $3 million loan proceeds and then to begin spending on the capital asset itself Mr McMillan you have any questions as to the improvements for the site itself I can speak to this you have any renderings and show the public what we're going to be getting what are we going to get for that 3 milon well we do have a presentation if s could pull it up um for the new site no not as of yet but we do have the sorry I've got a ling cough but we have a uh a a I guess a site plan and in actual full renderings for the previous site across the street and our goal now um is to work with and actually in the next item um our our consultant pasero to transition that original program and plan um to the new site and that they're actually fairly similar in in layout and design for our needs sizes have changed a little bit but um you know covered space for for material storage and and office spaces are are very similar size so just so I could be clear because from the last past week I heard of the loan the loan payment I know we made a down payment of one point I thought of 1.6 for the land purchase is that correct I'm go back to miss cter could I ask her yes sir we what we did we did actually purchase the land in the building and 1.6 yes sir so we at 3 million m 3 million the money that we already had we got it out of reserves and what right what we did because we could not extend the uh purchase we tried to extend it to the actual date we anticipated receiving the funds from the bank but they would not extend so what we did was we moved money temporarily uh from reserves just to close that deal because we could not extend the purch okay so the loan and the allocation is one and the same just 3 million it's not the 3 million plus the loan of that's correct that's correct the 1.6 million is included in that three mil so want to make that clear and I wanted to be on the record yes sir you're welcome thank you any additional questions of Mr McMillan or miss Connie I'm not starting don't have any any renderings at all of something we he we do have can if we the problem is this machine had slideshow okay so the other show them that so we're moving from that location so that's going to be additional additional cost because if we purchase the land in the building so we're going to be moving from that location over to another another location no sir the the the site that was purchased will be the site that would be utilized as the Public Works facility we had programmed and designed already the site across the street and so what we'll be doing is taking the programming our space needs and allocations that we developed for that at 60% drawings that was in the presentation that you had that can't get up on the screen right now um and again it's it's fairly similar in its layout to what we had already designed in that we have a large Warehouse in an office space and that if we could see the aerial um the site that we had procured has a 100 by 150 warehouse and a 100 by well 50 by 100 office space or another Warehouse we can convert to office spaces so again our our goal is to take that original design for the site across the street and translate it into a renovation program for the the property that we have purchased okay you done any any question commissioner and that $3 million is the cap we're not spending anything over that3 million dollar for that facility you're going to be bow tied with it right correct that's what you've approved all right okay may I say something more uh I'd like to mention the fact that the bond Council for this uh you know for this purchase it's also here she drove all the way from Miami to be certain that everything is done correctly if the commission permit I'd like her to at least come up and Miss uh J you droveo that way please have her come up yes five hours um good evening my name is jool Linda Herring and I'm with the law firm of Bryant Miller Olive pa um we have five offices in the State of Florida and and U my practice specifically is Public Finance helping local government e for the next 30 years for a three million uh $300 million Bond and then the city uh to get extra money for the fire department put a fire fee on us so my I want confirmation from the city commission that this money is not going to be put on our tax bills either on a bond issue on our tax bills or our water bills and that it's not going to be put as an extra fee in other words I want confirmation that know that I or any citizen of plaque is not going to have to pay for this in any way shap perform with our utilities increasing or our taxes and that's all I want to know thank you thank you on up Mr Good Question Miss kitchen thank you address that thank you hello again so no your um loan will be repaid from non atalm revenues so that's any legally available non- avalor revenues that you have it would exclude property taxes the only way that you could use property taxes to pay this if you would have had a referendum and the residents would have voted um to approve this project so no no property taxes will be used for the repayment of this thank you um do we have motion let's just leave it at that motion please second second all in favor I any opposition thank you on to E Madame mayor may we have a quick recess to sign this loan please yes I'm sorry I forgot a quick recess you all have to sign the paperwork too your name on the loan I'm that vot yes you canot vote e hey stop Loki looking the screen weirdo Sean your mic is on e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e now we're really starting item that's 49 correct Madam mayor a resolution of the city of pacque authorizing the execu of pastro Associates work order number 202 2410 for the owner representative services for Public Works facility project and an amount not exceed 22,900 and providing for scrier errors again so this is a work order for passerone and Associates to act as our owner's representative for the design and then following construction process for the public works facility their scope of work in the design phase is to assist with coordinating between our ourselves and the awarded contractor Sher um for Progress drawings contract documents value engineering um and taking again that 60% program and and concept they did for the site across the street and translating that into a renovation scope for us um for actual construction additionally they'll be following us into project Administration during construction which they will attend pre-construction meeting um field reports field inp C in developing punch lists and also reviewing payment applications from the contractor shouldn't have been including in that $3 million that is why is it broken out into the 229 that would have been under the miscellaneous for that $3 million breakdown Madame mayor it requires uh commission approval for us to execute that work order under that $3 million cap have any questions any discussion yes well what I like to see if if if there's anything that's tied to other things as it relates to tied to I like to see it um in a way that we can identify what's tied to what because where it broken out like this is is it's just a separate item and it doesn't kind of make sense in my head absolutely we too on uh page 161 I just asked Miss CR to bring it up okay under architectural engineering there's the 22,900 right so again we're seeing it here I like to just see them tied together tied together because it make better sense I don't like the Hun and pet I got you so I just want you to know that we did at least put it there but we'll do like you say appreciate it thank you any other discussion questions Mo second Mo second fav I any opposition thank you on to G thank you Madame mayor resolution 2024 R51 resolution of the city Commission of the city of Paca Florida authorizing execution of Florida Department of Environmental Protection Grant agreement number LPA 0354 puru Mainline Replacements and manhold repairs in the amount of 4,515 531 and providing for scrier errors so this is an FD grant for approximately $4.5 million 100% Grant funded for the replacement and repair of sanitary sewer remains and manholes throughout the entire city have any questions of Mr McMillan I did due to due to the lack of activity again on the North side can we start over there that's my request when you start his work we definitely would identify projects within that area yes sir they answer we start over there as priority um and I say that there because there have been U just such a delay of the time that work have been completed over there we've identified some areas where um we are getting claims for vehicles being damaged because of the potholes and a lot of it is around the manholes that are caving in that area um so we know the travesty on St John's Avenue um it just hadn't been publicized I hate to say it in this meeting really uh but this is the only way I can get some traction they're over there you've seen them with me and others we've been over there I just request that we start doing some work over there first and city manager I I am I'm requesting that and U Can we see to that that we start at least some of that work over there absolutely and and staff will tell you that I've been beating that drum since I walked in the door of the necessity to be able to show the work being done thank you addition questions discussion motion so move second all in favor any opposition thank you H and this is resol ution 2024 r52 a resolution of the city Commission of the city of Palaca Florida awarding and authorizing the execution of a proposal for sanitary sewer lining under continuing Services contract with Atlantic pipe services for an amount not to exceed $1 19,43 A7 and providing for scrier SS so this is tied to item G that $4.5 million Grant this is to line the sanitary sewer under St John's Avenue from Mosley to Fourth um our goal is to get this work completed before we do resurfacing so we don't have any imprinting on the new surface of the road um we've got reconstruction and we've got to complete excavation as a part of these repairs as well so we don't want to dig up a newly surfaced Road and that work is ongoing right now at the county any questions motion to approve second all in favor any opposition thank you I thank you this is resol resolution number 2024 R53 a resolution of the city Commission of the city of Palaca Florida authorizing the execution of a proposal for manhole lining under continuing contract Service serves contract sorry Tong t with the landing pipe services for an amount not to exceed 65848 62 and awarding a continuing Services contract with L pipe services for wet and manhole lining via Cooperative purchasing agreement and providing prescrip servers so again this is tied to that $4.5 million Grant um there are two items act well two actions that will happen with this resolution and that the first one is awarding this work uh in the same space on St John's Avenue to address the lining of those manholes additionally it would be approving A continuing Services contract to allow us to affect repairs in the rest of the city potentially on the North side uh more immediate without having to go out to bid for every single instance right so that would allow us to expedite this and again you've previously awarded A continuing Services contract under Cooper purchasing for sanitary sewer lining so with the same company we can affect all repairs or at least lining services to a sanitary sore system um by just bringing these items to you without having to go to bid any additional questions so move second all in favor mayor yes if I may I have a request um is it possible that we can reconsider the agenda and make an amendment and to bring item 8e up for um discussion at this time as we know we have a room full of individuals that are here um with regards to that and I think we have some that have traveled from out of town to be here and I would want to go ahead and see if that's something that we can bring to a resolve or at least here at this time something yes I would like to see it moved up if at all possible with this something else because I know even with this I've had some concerns with um the technology and it's my understanding that um technology is a part of some of the presentation so we may even have to take in consideration however I'm looking listening or leaning to councils of both parties to see what they recommend Kevin Shau representing marks on good evening Kevin Shau I'm the attorney representing the appellant St Marks with regard to their appeal of the historic board's decision and I believe believe I'm ready to proceed I do have some images I would like to present I believe we can do it if we basically uh play nicely with the technology I think Miss CR will be able to to make that happen and from there it's just a a PowerPoint presentation that's not image dependent at all so people would just have to enjoy the sound of my voice instead of seeing text up on the screen thank you Miss West Commissioners we're also ready to roll um here we have our expert uh Paul Weaver who came in from St Augustine and our other expert Larry Beaton however um our presentations we each have a PowerPoint presentation and they are somewhat image dependent um so if we are having technological issues I am concerned that that might impair the ability for the city to defend against this um appeal so that that's my only concern we're ready to go okay thank you so with that said um we'll alter the agenda we'll move on to the appeal of the city's issuance of certificate of appropriateness 23-26 for 312 North 2 Street patka and we will start with expart disclosures if we have any commissioner Campbell expart disclosures you I have known I've not communicated with anyone regarding this matter commissioner Jones I have had emails sent to my city email and phone calls uh what concern citizens on both sides of this issue do you need me to disclose indidual that they're not they're not one of the attorneys yes um for expart disclosures you do have to disclose the individuals that you spoke to um regarding the pending matter for cause a Judicial hearing and it looks like we're having significant AV issues now may I be allowed to restart my computer Madame mayor um yeah I guess so that no I do make I guess is that the risk going to take of losing everything though I've already lost everything so e e e e e e e e and uh I had a conversation with the church member Larry um and I and that's it checking this email have to disclose our emails who sent them that's all you need to disclose I got to go back next time I'll know to have them all available here um Miss Tammy shean think I received um something from Mr Larry but I did not respond back to any anybody understood um just looking through my email real quick um other than that I think that that that did it for my uh emails coming in regarding that particular thing if I if there's anything else I find later I for that too and with my search one of I'm sorry I I at one other with just a text [Music] from um Reverend flag and that's and I never responded back to any any of the requests I just readed that's all I have I have the same as commissioner borne that's all that's all I have um that I that I know I have at this point okay thank you yeah I can I get a status update on where we are with okay all right it looks like we're ready to roll um Miss CR if you can please swear in all witnesses that will be testifying I received that email from you as well miss West I have one witness that will we can swear in all Witnesses now and then when Mr beon takes the stand we'll go ahead and swear him in so if everyone who on testifying uh during this qu judicial hearing if you could please stand please rise raise your right hand and repeat after me I state your name I call do solemnly swear to tell the truth do Sol swear to tell the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth nothing but the truth so help you God so help you God thank you everyone thank you please um we're going into staff presentation background mayor mayor may I ask for a point of clar clarification those who are sworn in are those individuals part of public comment as well should they have been sworn in or just those who plan to testify those that plan to testify public comments mad mayor Commissioners for the record my name is Lorenzo ago and the plan director of the city uh what is in front of you is an appeal of the historic preservation board decision to deny the certificate of appropriateness for the demolition of historic structure let me just give you a little bit of the background the the property in question is located at 312 North 2 Street which is owned by the Pisco Church the P the church submitted an application for a certificate of appropriateness for the demolition of the existing stor structure on August 11 2023 the application was reviewed by staff and was considered by the stor preservation board at a duly notice public meeting on November 2nd 2023 after consideration of the staff report the presentation by the applicant and the public testimony the historic preservation board denied the certificate of abiess for the proposed demolition since then the pisal church has filed timely appeal of the historic preservation board decision on November 16 2023 and the item is in front of you for your consideration okay we're following a hearing template that has been provided um after the staff presentation we'll now move on to the appellant case and chief and the uh pent has 45 minutes thank you very much attorney West good evening mayor uh council members Mr manager Council uh members of the public my name is Kevin shaugh I'm here this evening representing St Marks in their appeal I'm going to ask that Miss CR go ahead and I'm G to fire up my laptop just so it's on standby in the event we lose main tower I'll be on auxillary with that being said if Miss CR I would like for everybody to to get a visual just for a moment of what we're talking about I think we all well most people in the room probably know that this building we're talking about it's about block and a half that direction down the street this is a little bit of a video number one the number one I think it's at the very top okay there you perfect there you go and if you just like enlarge that people can see it I can get out of their way somebody tell me if I'm in their way n okay don't mess with it I know I know no cross your fingers all right this is the condition I believe this is photos from 2021 when these photos were taken um and at the end of my presentation I'm going to get verification from my my witnesses that what I'm presenting to you is accurate and correct to the best of everyone's knowledge okay so that is the video or the small video of images now I would like for Miss CR to open the um there's item number three which was the agenda and report from the historic planning board's uh meeting and then we're going to look at some uh still images here for just a minute and once she has that open the first thing I'd like for you to do is take it to page number 48 if you could you and for the uh for the Commissioners I provided with this package of information an index hopefully you've received that that basically identifies these these items okay this image if you could blow that up just a little bit this is an actual photo from 1870 and that is the actual building that we are referring to as the old rectory I want everyone to notice that is not what that building looks like today not just in its condition but in actually what it looks like from outside the building you'll notice there's a large porch uh along the the front there on the second floor and you also notice the the angle of the roof line if you would and Miss CR if you would now move to page 41 and then this is a drawing rendering and it appears to me to be the similar to the photo that we saw and this drawing is attributed to 1884 uh and I believe that's still that same structure at that time of course through time things have changed okay Miss CR at this point if you would just go to page 131 of that document and then just slowly scroll through there's a number of still photos that I believe uh would be helpful for everyone to see and you can go a little bit faster it's it's kind of overwhelming in a in a way all right so this was all uh okay slow for a moment there just so we can see the import of what's on the inside of that structure right this moment okay keep going if you would all right and I I'm saying all right I'm just being agreeable I'm not telling you to stop sorry and I would like for you yeah and if you I think next comes up some chimneys and I just really want to see well there's some fire places all right and then we're up in the attic here momentarily and you'll see where we have some chimneys that I think are you see the the side of the okay here I just want everybody to see where the chimney has the dark mark and then the redder brick above it I think everybody can see that yes okay keep scrolling if you would and you'll notice that in some of these other photos as well uh such as like that one in the very middle scroll back down a little bit or up whichever Mr Griffith would tell you to do sorry the other way the other way the other the other way the other way the other way the other way that way St okay all right I think we get the idea that there is a clear line or demarcation on those chimneys and that's there for a very very important reason that I'm going to highlight here in just a minute okay I think that's probably sufficient for our purposes here this evening if you would go ahead and bring up my PowerPoint I would appreciate that and then I'm just going to I I apologize it's not going to be a bunch of pretty pictures it's just going to be text but what I've tried to do here is because of the the amount of information I've just tried to distill everything down as best as I could to be the what I consider we consider St Marks considers the relevant points uh with regard to the old rectory building that's perfect there we go so this is the appeal of the decision of the historic preservation board's November 2nd denial of requests for certificate of appropriateness for demolition if you go ahead and advance for me okay and as staff said said this was filed on August 11th the hearing was set for August 5th the staff report came out the morning of August 5th and that is the first I believe St Mark's re realized there was a recommendation to deny and so in looking at what the staff recommendation had said uh which basically was some things were saying that there wasn't enough information or there was no information presented on certain items so in response Mr Taylor Bob Taylor provided lots and lots of documentation and therefore we have a very large packet for this this proceeding and and so did the historic preservation board but I think some of it was very relevant information so he provided that information but in that report on October 5th what was raised was the idea of demolition by neglect a lack of engineering studies no proposed use of the property was submitted and funding is available from state and local grants that's what the staff said and that's therefore that was kind of their basis I believe for recommending a denial please continue uh in response to those comments St Mark's hand delivers additional documents prior to the meeting and then because of the size of the information it was okay we need to table this and roll it back to November the 2 which they did the updated staff report for November the 2 alleges that only one of the 13 additional documents addresses the issue of salvageability and points to the zebon report from 2011 okay if you go ahead and continue there I would I would I would posit to you that that's the only report that uses that particular term but there all these documents are going toward the state of the the condition of the building and therefore whether it would be feasible or not to try to salvage this building the council for City instructed the board the applicant has the burden to show I'm sorry if you back back up okay it's okay it was a cough injected uh slide change that's fine uh that de uh it's the burden to show that the change Demolition is supported by competent substantial evidence so that's the burden on St Mark show us competent substantial evidence supporting this the basis of the recommendation from the staff to deny was said the only indication of salvageability for this parcel is given in the zebon report from 2011 many historic district codes have a provision regarding demolition by neglect and city of Palaca code proper maintenance of structures is required and staff quotes the code section and opines that this directive addresses the concept of demolition by neglect staff States as a nonprofit St Mark's eligible to apply for various grants if you'll continue uh that the removal of the structure will be detrimental to the historic and Architectural character of the north historic district in consideration of pla code the zabon report from 2011 noted the need for the comprehensive restoration to be completed it also regarded the property as salvageable and noted it should be evaluated further those are in quotes because that's directly lifted from the staff report and then staff recommended denial right at the hearing on November the 5th uh Mr Taylor who is an architect for the last 50 years and he's a member of St Marks he's he presented into his testimony that the full report on the um old rectory shows damage caused by years of deterioration impacts of invasive repairs cut joist and studs termite infestation incorrectly extended walls missing structural headers and deficient Construction Incorporated from its very beginning in the late 19th and earli 20th centuries please continue okay and pointing to the zabon report uh there were it was an that was commissioned because it was commissioned to support an application in 2012 by St Marks in which they were asking to demolish three buildings on their campus and they had Mr zabon come and do this entire report and he assessed all five buildings on the property including the old rectory and the conclusions and recommendations regarding the rectory was that based on our site observations the contents of this report preliminary analysis and my past experience it's our opinion that although the rectory building is salvageable the cost of the needed repairs may become costly and should be evaluated further and then in its overall summary that report which is in your packet says with the exception of the rectory building the buildings on the St Mark's property are in generally good condition for their age or in salvageable state next Please Mr Taylor uh responding to this statement about demolition by neglect said well St Marks I took a little bit of offence I would imagine to do that kind of uh statement uh said St Marks is the steward of the greatest number of historic properties in Palaca the 1853 Sanctuary the Parish Hall the James house cottage and the St Mark's academy uh building as well as the old recory more than $500,000 has been expended by St Marks in restoration repairs since 2017 2017 being an important year that's when hurricane Irma hit the area please continue okay responding to the uh lack of engineering studies there are three engineering reports were submitted three architectural evaluations and the city planner evaluation Mr Thad Crow was provided next please uh responding to the issue about uh Public Funding being available St Mark's church has endeavored to secure funding through a variety of Grants 2014 there was a discussion with the city of Palaca and the Paca North historic district I'm sorry please back up it's okay 20 uh 2017 applied for special category grant for the parish house denied 2018 application small matching Grant uh was denied 2019 application for a small matching Grant to do an assessment of the old rectory and the James uh house was awarded and in 2021 the application for the James house was awarded I believe was $50,000 to assist please continue okay in 2013 which is following the zabon report saying there needed to be additional research done on that building a local contractor gave St Marks an estimate opinion that to restore the building would cost about $700,000 in 2017 hurricane Irma came along and did not improve the situation emergency repairs had to be affected just to keep the building from falling down there were photos and and testimon in there where there were chains actually strung around girdling the building to hold the walls together and hold it up 2019 St Marks asked Alpha Foundation come and take a look at the structure get a proposal restore the peers beams deteriorated Floy Jo floor joist and construct proper foundations the request was declined because they said it was deemed economically not feasible they didn't even want to come and do the assessment next slide please then uh Mr Taylor pointed out in the zabon report this is direct quote from the the South Wall is not attached to Interior support the second floor addition area shows signs of rotting and much of the wall framing along the west side was poorly constructed and needs to be replaced the porch at the front of the building and the main entry was inadequately tied to the existing structure and is unsafe for use the foundation beam and isolated pad and Pier foundations along the 40 feet west side of the building near the existing porch was repaired inadequately and in need of replacement the porch in this area was rotted and generally poor condition the sighting of the building was rotted in some areas remember this is 2011 next please the old rectory has not been used in 20 years has become a dangerous structure St Mark's Episcopal is a modest congregation only about 35 families has the expenses of five buildings 700,000 to a million dollars for St Mark's Church to restore the old rectory is an undue economic hardship that was his direct testimony at the hearing he then said the proposed use of the property is as a community park as a prayer Labyrinth meditation area uh open Green Space uh for the public to enjoy in said St Marks is focusing its resources on transformation of the deteriorated structure to a garden park refurbishing the James house cottage uh with a 50,000 Grant award from the state division of historic resources please continue uh Mr Taylor then said we've replaced four of the five roofs on St Mark at significant expense and we're still wrestling with FMA to get reimbursed for money that costs above beyond what the insurance paid this is a result of Hurricane Irma again the office and classroom complex now need a roof we have a proposal for 50 Grand it would be important to allocate the funds to a facility that's usable rather than one that might look like a postcard next please okay here is your pla municipal code and when you're looking at criteria for decisions on a certificate of appropriateness when it deals with a proposed demolition Dem ol specifically here's what you have in the case of a proposed demolition of an existing structure that the removal of such structure will not be detrimental to the historical and Architectural character to the district okay well I'll tell you that's what the city's position and their experts are going to say that's going to be detrimental to the historical and Architectural character of The District that's their position and I I respect that but or that balancing the interest of the city in preserving the Integrity of the district and the interest of the owner of the property approval of the plans for demolition is required by considerations of reasonable Justice and Equity that's what we're here to present tonight reasonable considerations of reasonable Justice and Equity is what St Marks is asking for you to do at the conclusion we had eight individuals spoke at the hearing seven supported or did not object to the proposed demolition of the building one spoke out to point to point out if you remove a historic B Building from a historic district it is detrimental because the historic districts are based on the number of historic buildings in the district when you reduce the number of buildings then does cause a problem for the historic district and then they thought that additional grants opportunities may be available and yes that piece of logic is is very true if you if it's based on the number of buildings and you remove a building it will have an effect on the district but we have to go back to that uh Equity idea reasonable uh Equity if you go next there was board discussion at which board member Mary Jane Rosa who is a member of St Mark she spoke and said look I'm not an architect but I'm a student of architecture for quite some time and I'm a firm believer we should try to save important buildings but this building is not architecturally important sometime I believe 1915 1917 someone who is living in the house decided to do some major architectural damage to the facade of the building the building has none of its original character which would make it an important building in the district and she's speaking from an architectural standpoint historically there may be importance to the building but architecturally is her point and next so when you're asking the church to save this what are we asking them to save that's a great question because when the building was originally designed before it was even originally constructed there were additions and changes and modifications then move along into the 1917 early 1920s there was apparently a big fire at that time they decided Well since we have to replace the roof anyways let's just go ahead and raise the the ceilings on the second floor by three feet so they just like added on some extensions changed the whole roof line added to the chimneys Etc then apparently at that time is when they put those columns in the pediment the big what you go down the street and see that's when that was added so when you're asking what I'm sorry one more moment this is not a beautiful Ed edifice it's not historically correct and it's actually bastardized in its design thank you and again these are I'm just pulling it straight from the hearing transcript uh board member uh Mr Beaton recognized he said the challenge for either a private owner or a nonprofit to maintain historic buildings in today's economy is tremendous that is a true statement and it's a recognition of the burden that we're dealing with here on the other hand I have to look at the history of this structure in my opinion based on being involved with these cases for many many years and based on that I have to support the recommendation of City staff to deny the certificate of appropriateness please continue now I would just say that that as a basis is difficult for me as the attorney coming in to look at it to re to recognize what was the balancing of the equities here right it's kind of it's kind of vague when it comes to trying to figure out what's the balancing of equities here the motion to deny was made seconded no further discussion it was passed we had two members opposed and five Mo it passed five to two so that led to this appeal uh appeal file by testimony and documentary evidence provided by St Marks they met the burden of showing the change the demolition is supported by competent substantial evidence denial denial of the application was based upon recommendation by staff and uh board member Beaton look at the history of the structure and my opinion based on being involved with these cases for many many years I'm I'm praising the technology don't get me wrong I I understand it's a little slow that's good the evidence uh provided shows the building is not architecturally important there was an addition made to the rectory before the original plan of 1870 was completed and alterations were made raising the roof apparently simultaneously the second floors at the West Side may have been stimulated by a fire suspected to occurred in the in the 1920s that's also when they added the Georgian columns additional modifications in the 1960s as Miss Ros has stated so when you're asking the church to save this what are we asking them to save at what point in history are we saying this is what we want it to look like next please okay so we filed the appeal and when I go through the code and I look okay well who makes up this who makes up the board well it says whenever possible okay so it's not mandatory but whenever possible with preference given to Property Owners within the designated historic district the members of the board shall include an architect property owner within the north Historic District South historic district represented the Historical Society a contractor a real estate broker and attorney well as I look at the members of the board I see we have property owners in the North and South historic district we have the Historical Society represented we have real estate brokers and we have a contractor I believe who has a a contractor for installing commercial pools but we don't have an architect on the panel nor do we have an attorney and I would suggest to you that missing that kind of representation on the board leads to a somewhat myopic or stilted view when you're trying to balance the equities of property rights or you're trying to look at is this an architecturally significant structure next slide please so then we start addressing these various um uh items raised by the staff recommendation this idea of a demolition by neglect that was a term presented by the staff and then they cited to the your code in addressing the concept of demolition by neglect but that term is not mentioned anywhere in the code nor is a definition or elements of what that might be provided in fact the code requires proper maintenance of structures does not of itself form the basis for denying a c certificate for demolition a property owner may have a duty under the code to maintain their property there are circumstances such as here where the property owner may not have the ability excit with regard to the issue of salvageability um the staff referenced the zabuni report from 2011 saying the property is salvageable and noted it should be evaluated further as I pointed out the report actually states that although the rectory building is salvageable the cost of the needed repairs may become costly and should be evaluated further and with the exception of the rectory building the buildings on the St Mark's property are in generally good condition for their age and are in a salvageable state so the language in the zabon report regarding the other buildings makes it clear the old rectory was in the worst condition and that attempts to salvage it may be cost prohibitive next please okay in response to the 2011 zabon report recommendation the property should be evaluated further it was that's exactly what St Marks did they went and got a cost estimate what would it cost to salvage this building uh the local contractor at the time gave an estimate of about $700,000 now following the denial by the historic preservation Board St Marks went and obtained an updated itemized cost estimate from Anis construction company for 1,27 $1,334 60 and that I believe that estimate was in your package that I provided to you so that's what it is in today's dollars uh and back to the idea of salvageable that that's really an ill-defined term if I may say uh you know the the Titan submarine that went down to see the Titanic and imploded they salvaged pieces of that thing but it's like to what end uh I think what we're talking about is a salvage to be completely restored to some previous historical Point uh the evidence Pro provided about financial assistance eligibility shows same Marx has applied continues to apply for Grants and other funding it also shows that St Marx is a small congregation limited funds available uh in order to maintain and restore all five buildings on their property subsequent to the denial the the church's 2024 budget was adopted you have a copy of that provided as well the total anticipated operation income for 2024 is $175,500 so that's telling you what the cost is compared to what the resource is at the present time uh their idea for a GU a garden park you know in order to maintain they can't maintain all five of these buildings on the property and and as a point of fact of those five buildings the church is from 1850 the parishes Hall is from 1880 the White House or the James house is for 1882 and the rectory is from 1880 and then the education building is 1965 so you've got four buildings from basically the 1880s or earlier they're saying this one we we can't handle it uh St Marks has prioritized those buildings that are truly historic and architecturally important as a result the old rectory already in severe disrepair in 2011 following hurricane Irma has become a danger and should be removed and they as a church they want to provide a community park and a prayer Labyrinth and then his testimony he went into all the other uh Community works the church does feeding the hungry people providing food Etc which is you know part of their mission as a church uh next slide please okay so because they are a church that raises a whole new issue here right all what I just said is if they were just a basic private land owner that's the kind of balancing of the equities you'd need to do but here specifically they are a church an federal statute the protection of religious exercise and land use and by institutionalized persons and attorneys and like to throw around things like Rupa or something like that we're going to call it the religious exercise of land use act it's a federal law and it's a protection of land use as a religious exercise and here's part of it I provided the entirety of the ACT to you in your packet no government shall impose or Implement a land use regulation in a manner that imposes is a substantial burden on the religious exercise of a person including a religious assembly or institution unless the government demonstrates that imposition of the burden on that person assembly or institution is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest and is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest so your code talks about the Ci's interest this UPS the game to say it has to be a compelling governmental interest and needs to be least restrictive means of furthering that the chapter also says it may require a government to incur expenses in its own operations to avoid imposing a substantial burden on religious exercise next slide please I know I'm I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel you'll see it soon too so there is a case uh that I provided that I think uh is very instructive and informative for this particular circumstance we have in front of us now the village of West dund First United Methodist Church 2017 state of Illinois now the village sought to force repair the church sought demolition of a building and replacement with a parking lot because they needed a place for people to be able to park the building was one of the 65 buildings in the surrounding area comprising the dunean township historic district most of which were added to the National register of historic places in 1975 and this has an important little footnote a national register listing places no obligations on private property owners nor does it restrict the use treatment transfer or disposition of private property this the old recory building is not on the uh register of historic places some of the other buildings around here are including the main church building but even if it were that would not be dispositive saying you can't do something because of that designation the Illinois appell court overturned the trial court decision that had dismissed the church's counter complaint against the village stating claims under the religious land use act next slide please the evidence at trial revealed that the building was a wreck okay I think we have a comparable situation here or comparable if you want to say it that way the church alleged that not withstanding The Village's efforts to force the church to repair the building The Village's continued denial of a demolition permit constituted a substantial burden on the church's free exercise of its religion in violation of the ACT the church alleged the significant cost to repair the building would potentially ruin the church and then they cited to this other case uh Roman Catholic bishop of Springfield versus City of Springfield that says that a burden does not need to be disabling to be substantial under this act so it doesn't we don't have to show St Marks have to show that says you're gonna we're gonna have to like close the church down it just needs to be a substantial burden that doesn't have to be disabling next slide [Music] please okay now the village said well hey this doesn't apply because the building's presently vacant it's not inhabit it's uninhabitable it's not being used for a purpose of a religious exercise well the the appell cour said no The Village you're wrong the ACT protects the use building or conversion of real property for the purpose of religious exercise and that includes any exercise of religion whether or not compelled by or Central to a system of religious belief from government enforcement of a land use regulation next please in short the church owns the building it wants to use the building and the land for a particular purpose but the village is allegedly standing in the church's way Congress mandated the act because construed quote in favor of a broad protection of religious exercise and in our view this case which again is only at the pleading stage presents the precise sort of situation that the Act was designed to cover next slide and I believe this is the final slide how's that so here's our prayer for Relief and I like that that's what attorneys say at the in their filings this is our prayer for relief and as St Marks this is our prayer for Relief given the competent substantial evidence that St Marks has provided regarding the architectural insignificance of the building the significant cost for its repair the priority of restoration and preservation of other more significant buildings on its campus and the substantial burden on the church's free exercise of its religion in removing the dangerous structure and providing a community park and prayer Labyrinth we ask the Commissioners to overturn the decision of this historic preservation board approved the application for certificate of appropriateness for demolition that was filed on August the 11th of 2023 now that is the end of my PowerPoint it is almost the end of my presentation it's very close am I close 14 minutes oh this that's amazing that's amazing I don't know you should told me that Jane okay so what I um subsequent to turning in this information I actually have uh an it can be provided to you this is a copy of the um the the proposal the the estimate for demolition of the structure uh $1,450 basically provide labor equipment dumpsters demolish and remove the structure I would say that is the least restrictive means of dealing with this piece of property is allow for the demolition to occur and I I I can hand these or however you want me to provide these to you um what was that number again $1,450 the demo now additionally and I'll pass these along uh we obtain from the mow and Associates Consulting Engineers and Project funding Specialists regarding the structural design of repairs and restoration on that structure Mr Taylor after reviewing the documents you provided and and seeing all this stuff and they give two pages worth of bullet point observations on the condition and circumstances of the building buing before they say given these findings mow and Associates Inc humbly declines to submit a proposal to design repairs for this structure we believe that the structure may be reasonably Beyond repair or Salvage that's what ntow associates basically said in response to trying to do our due diligence and find out well okay you know what what would it take and how would we deal with it and then finally what I have here is an estimate provided by Laro hous movers and Suns Incorporated and this is an estimate to move the building and they say we feel the two-story house can't be moved and possibly with the two fireplaces to move it to a new location will require tree limbs to be cut to allow approximately 33 foot wide by approximately 36 foot high house to pass there would be power lines power PS telephone lines cable TV lines signal lights that would have to be removed to allow the house to pass owner to pay all cost okay but to actually you know do the deal put it up on jacket up and and move it it would be $17,000 if they give another option just in case you were interested they could also cut the top section off make the loaded height approximately 20 foot high still tree lenss utility lines Etc if this method is used you'd have to hire a contractor demo the tops of fireplaces cut the tops section loose but we all put it all back together and restore Salvage it uh rebuild it uh we would install gr of Steel beams Etc an additional $70,000 to our price above so $17,000 or $177,000 to move the building and I would submit to you that in the event that it's decided that the city or or any other entity is really seriously interested in in in salvaging this building and restore it um there is caddy corner across the the Street intersection is the Bronson M Holland L grounds right there it's within 100 feet of where the building currently stands it would still be in its almost exact same location it's pretty near uh and you know then whoever has it could could basically take care of dealing with the building and to that end I already received uh authority to offer this is the key to the old rectory and I'm happy to provide it to anyone whether it's the city or another organization that would like to accept the donated gift of the structure and is willing to pay for it to be moved we we we're here to to offer that possibility as an option and with that uh I would just call my my Witnesses Mr Taylor you can just stand right there and and Father John and just say Mr lar was sworn in as well and I think you are all at the hearing and I just want to make sure that everything that I presented this evening is a an accurate and correct representation of basically the here history of the structure and of the hearing that you had at the historic preservation board and and all of these estimates that we provide is that true information did in the church leure Adam mayor may I ask that he take a microphone if he's gonna speak Bob Taylor 261 West River Road we did find in the church's letter Ledger back in 1921 that the church hired a carpenter to do some repairs on the uh old recory and again in 1926 to do some additional repairs so we may have alluded to what 1915 or 1917 so I think maybe a more correct date would be 21 and 26 that that's it thank you for the correction uh and with that I think we will um sit down and allow the city to present their their argument thank you thank you the city would like to cross-examine Mr Taylor please good evening Mr Taylor good evening do you recognize the document that I've just handed to you looks like a master site pile for 312 nor Second Street um can you take a look at the very first page what what is the date on the top of that document it's highlighted for your convenience uh it looks like 389 and if you scroll down to the bottom highlight where it states the condition of the building what does it say excellent and if you will now turn these pages are not numbered this is a if you turn to the March 19th update for the historic structure form for 312 North 2 Street let me make sure we're on the same page is that it no not yet further back it helps when things have page numbers yes good okay so do you recognize this portion of the document yes and how do you recognize it I authored it and the date of this was in 2019 do you see where it notes the condition at the top see let me get on the same page go back to where you were that's the old one this is the new condition it says deteriorated okay and if you'll please read the narrative description building has suffered from rain water infiltration neglect exposure thermites and age most plaster and wood laugh removed exterior doors and windows in poor conditions no Plumbing mechanical or electrical remains except remnants the house has a new metal roof and you note that uh the building when you wrote this report that the condition has deteriorated did you note that it was ruinous ma'am ruinous which is the next worst thing on this list I don't think so and you note that the building suffered from neglect who was the owner of the building at this time the church if you'll move down to the opinion of resource significance where it asks does the uh building appear to meet the criteria for National register listing individually what did you check yes and when it asks does it appear to meet the criteria for National register listing as part of a district what did you check yes and could you please read the narrative right under that building has long history in connection with the Episcopal Church of Florida Builder and occupants represent leadership roles in faith-based Outreach from early beginnings of putham County history and what areas of historic significance did you note below religion architecture exploration settlement social and humanitarian thank you no further questions may I respond um only if uh your attorney chooses to redirect okay do that right now here um okay so Mr Taylor um can you tell me what this document is it's uh Master site pile it's on pages 150 through 151 of the agenda items for this preservation board yes it's just a more recent Master site file document and what is the year on this one um yeah it looks like 7 it looks like July 29th 2021 okay and at this point in time can you tell us what the nature of the the um what the condition of the building was identified numerous construction Elements which show uh sequential expansion of the building which has modified been added to uh three to four times and can I ask you was there some reasoning behind why your previous uh report and assessment uh basically we pointing out these these features uh that said it had significance the report that we produced was intended to be as factual as possible about the conditions of the building and if you read the report you'll see that there's a lot of things that are described in there to talk about its insignificant construction from its beginning and how it's been damaged and cut and modified and structurally deficient the priest at the time the director at the time father Bob Marsh wanted to save the building I am an architect and I felt I was commissioned to assist in that endeavor and if that helped I thought that that was a fair assess could it be saved yeah I guess it could be saved if you had enough money and enough time and was this kind of an assessment done in order to try to obtain grant funding yes and so basically in was it always the intention of St Marks to destroy this building or was it at some point their intention to try to save if they could well again father father Bob Marsh wanted to try to save the building did you take those steps to try to save the building uh filling out the master site file yes thank you very no questions other than to note that there is a vacancy on the historic preservation board for an AR thank you Miss am I questions thank you um Kevin are you resting your case in Chief yes okay yeah uh sorry I I'll be a little FAL we rest I didn't mean to make you work um we okay Jane West with the uh city um if Sunny if you could possibly pull up my PowerPoint presentation if I may I'm gonna try to attempt to let the zoom people see it don't mess it up I'm opening one thing at a time I need to set time set a time clock so you're not timing yourself I I would greatly appreciate that 45 minutes yes ma'am thank you okay so um within your agenda packet you have the city of palak's historic research survey we're going to go into depth uh with our expert witness Paul Weaver by the way we do have stipulations as to the expertise for all of the witnesses opposing Council and I have agreed to their expertise in advance uh next slide please the recommendations from the historic survey and this survey was done to establish the north south and downtown historic districts it's a pretty lengthy document but it you'll find it quite insightful it quote no single building in the historic district may be significant by itself but together the structures create a harmonious scene in such cases it is often necessary to preserve the individual elements to maintain Harmony of all next slide please older buildings give a community distinctiveness setting it apart from other cities in a modern era of franchised archit chitecture many Florida towns have become indistinguishable one from another this is the basis for why we established the historic districts next slide please Paka Bose one of Florida's largest concentration of 19 century architecture enhancing the historic context will draw attention to the city and create an attractive and distinctive Urban environment that will be a spur for future growth the establishment of these historic district was intended to be an economic driver at the time the districts were established next slide please the rehabilitation of older buildings is a labor intensive occupation that contributes to the economic well-being of the community preservation feeds upon itself once a few buildings in the neighborhood are rehabilitated the effort will expand and we are seeing this happening currently next slide please you heard from opposing Council sorry did you have something yes I just wanted to interrupt you for a second to see if you could go to the podium possibly um actually no I'm comfortable here thank you um the next slide pertains to the balancing test uh required by the code uh next slide please Paca Municipal Code 54-79 opposing Council already went into this it's a fairly lengthy section of the code but if we boil it down next slide please it comes down to this the interest of the City and preserving the Integrity of the historic districts that you established 40 years ago versus the interest of the owner now the only interest that you have heard tonight is that it is financially burdensome for the owner and that is absolutely a very legitimate burden however we have a nonprofit entity here that is uniquely positioned to secure grant funding and we will go into that with our expert witness next slide please the city of Paca staff report at the time was drafted by our previous planning director Lisa Walsh demolition of a historic structure obviously means no component of the structure would exist erasing its historic or architectural value and destabilizing the Integrity of the entire District it essentially is death by a thousand paper cuts the city next slide please the city of kaka staff report noted that the owner of this structure and other historic structures on the property it's a nonprofit they are eligible to apply for various grants for Technical and financial assistance through the Florida Department Florida Department of State Division of historic resources and other agencies and further the removal of this structure would be detrimental the historic and Architectural character of the north historic district next slide please demolition by neglect you heard this referen before um it is required in our code that you have proper maintenance of structures and neither the owner of nor the person in charge of a structure within a historic district shall permit such structure to fall into a state of disrepair which may result in the deterioration of exterior apperences or architectural features so as to produce or tend to produce in the Judgment of the board a detrimental effect upon the character of The District as a whole or the life and character of the structure in question and that directive addresses the concept of demolition by neglect according to the staff report next slide please this is the property when the historic district for the north historic district was established back in 1981 next slide please 2009 this is the property in 2009 next slide please and this is the property in 2023 next slide please now is Rupa applicable um so a party claiming that a government action constitutes a violation of Rupa Bears the initial burden so it is the burden of the appellant here it is the burden of St Marks to show that a regulation constitutes a substantial burden on their exercise of religion and that's according to Westgate Tabernacle versus versus Palm Beach County a 2009 case next slide please so the question is is the city's denial of the demolition request an act that forbids the religious members of St Marks from engaging in conduct that their religion requires no absolutely not an applicable case law here is Warner versus the city of boa Ron 2004 the boa rone case next slide please oh thank you stated that the Florida Supreme Court held that the city of boa raton's prohibition on vertical grave markers did not violate the Florida version of fupa next slide please the Westgate Tabernacle case Palm Beach County did not violate Rupa when it required a conditional use permit for a Church's operation of a homeless shelter the code did not substantially burden the exercise of religion likewise the request um that this building not be demolished and the request that it be made into a garden that is not going to substantially burden the exercise of religion the church failed to show that running a homeless shelter at its specific location was fundamental to its religious exercise next slide please the Illinois case and you will note that Council for St Marks did not site to any Florida case law went all the way to Illinois to find case law there for this particular ular case the case law out of Illinois has no precedential value in Florida the church intended to use the land for a parking lot for its congregation the Court held that sufficient parking is fundamental to a church St Marks intends to demolish a historic building and replace it with the garden there is no case law supporting the position that a garden is fundamental to a church next slide please staff recommended denial of a certificate of appropriateness um for this um historic preservation board application and that is what the historic preservation board ultimately decided they denied the request for Demolition and at this time I would like to go ahead and call Mr Paul Weaver be able slides yes um Miss CR can you queue up his PowerPoint presentation thank you please tell me one second to close out of yours yeah yeah please don't run more than one thing at once we'll crash and burn I know I'm so scared if I I can just verbally absolutely so let's let's start with the how you came to know this particular property well it's kind of a homecoming for me if you look at the um this is the cover of the uh survey report I am Paul Weaver now I'm the president of historic property Associates we go back uh but we can do the next slide you can see a little bit the the staff here I was just a a a lowly employee of the company at that time and I really believe it or not I got my start uh working here in Pat and it was a really uh uh exciting project and we did uh the uh uh the staff report we actually came and made a presentation before the city commission I I started think maybe I should have brought the slide SL show that we did then because it was less technologically challenging but let me move to the next slide and then what has been discussed somewhat tonight is um uh the other product was the uh National register nomination and let me give you really I think if I recall correctly the compelling city interest in this uh and this is what we told the commission that time uh patka is a gym it was the gym city is uh Miss West has pointed out so much about the history of this community but a beautiful setting on the St John's river The Ravines h a very interesting history and very important historic buildings and that was recognized um shortly thereafter in the early 1980s by the designation not not only the north area but the South area so let's go to the next slide and this is what we saw in 1981 um I might mention a few things the building has changed over time well who's made those changes it's been owned by St Mark's church since 1874 and the building it it as it appears in 1981 let's go to the next slide here it is essentially the same there have been some alterations if I can get mine won't show on it won't show anyway I'll point out the basic mass of the building the Symmetry the windows the materials this this building was built by first by local labor Artisans uh using Cyprus long Le feline all of those features are still intact and you might not like it I think it's I think it's still a handsome building and my feeling is it certainly was the alterations were done within the period of significance and they were done by the church so they they uh they embody the history of of this building within the period of significance of the historic district that's an important part of it and this historic district runs the period of significance is roughly from about 1865 to 1930 so everything that you've heard been said uh the the alterations that were done by the church within the period of significance so this is what we considered uh when we evaluated this building and I did a thorough check and I was the one that found Mr Taylor among others agreed with us it was historically and architecturally significant uh let's go to uh the next slide so we talked about statistics is it just it's just another building no this is really one of the landmark buildings in the district and this is a district application and it's called out uh truste ship of the pla track succeeded on Judge Bronson's death death to James Bert who was to become the dominant figure in pacus phenomenal growth after the Civil War he was the original owner of the building next slide again these are from the nominations uh from the nomination calling out um uh really the individual significance of this particular building and one thing I think while I'm at it uh Council for the appellant mentioned that it's not listed in the National register for historic places it is it's part of a district and it has all the that doesn't have the individual recognition but it has all the incentives and protection of a building that was individually listed again this is from uh the national register District nomination item 7 page one pointing out the significance of the architecture partly it's significant because it's basically the first building up there and also for the later editions it's overall style I mentioned the quality of architecture next page just before you go to the next page this one line if you could refer to that for an understanding of the architectural significance the Georgian yes it's the Georgian Revival style and that is it's kind of a a a a classical Revival style that was uh popular in the United States it it refers to the I think we talked about King George that period but around 1876 with the Centennial of the United States a lot of the colonial buildings were popularized so this particular style again G again be became popular and so that was the the style that it was associated with this particular building thank you again um it's a contributing building with the within the district it's called out here 312 North 2 Street next slide again St Mark's rectory georgean Revival 1865 a very very early building one of the earliest in pla so next slide significance James Bert uh basically the founder of the of pla one of the first Mayors very important next slide and I just wanted to read put a few of the documentation this is his obituary and uh it's says Judge James Burton skipped down to look thus has passed away one of pla's oldest and mo most influential citizens long identified with the history of town so it has incredible historical significance next slide and these are some of the his accomplishment but if you look at the area I've highlighted with the arrows um he was a Founder BAS basically of North pla including new town uh one of the accomplishments that he did during his lifetime next slide and here's a here's a a slide of the area that uh judge Bert developed um in the the mid 19th century next Slide the second owner was Helen putam who was the Widow of Judge Benjamin putam putam County pretty important next slide and then of course it's been since 1874 I think the appellant has put all sorts of information on the record about how important this church is next slide this is a complex of State at least Statewide significance and this rectory I think is a an integral part part of it again not just an average building a really really outstanding uh building in the context of pla next slide and again a little bit more evidence uh where you see the arrow Judge James Bert was one of the founding members of St Marks and was the secretary treasurer of the church at the time it was founding again a very very I think important Association Next slide so this this building has entitlements um and we've talked a lot about Grant I'd be happy to write their grant for them maybe they're just not getting good grant writing because they could get an awful lot of money I think towards uh preserving this this building um and that's something if the building's demolished that endowment is going to go away they could sell it to a private individual there's federal tax credits so there are entitlements that go with this historic designation that are going to go away if it becomes a garden or if a new building is going to be constructed there last slide and it can do you believe in miracles yeah we do in St Augustine St Benedict the mo school that was a gon or twoo but somebody The Sisters of St Joseph came in and preserved that building and that building was in a lot worse condition than this one was so that's my presentation I know Miss Wes if you've got some questions for me sure you addressed a lot of the historic significance of the building but did it have architectural significance as well it did and I think I've pointed out the basic building is still there and there have been significant additions that I think were taken into account not only by us but I think Mr Taylor in his evaluation said it he thought it was individually eligible for the national register that's part of any building uh a building that was built at that time probably had an outdoor kitchen didn't have indoor plumbing uh it's been retrofitted for air conditioning and electricity and an awful lot of things and there have been some changes to it which are done by the church and and part of the history of it and I think you know it's not perfect but I think it's a it's a it's certainly an attractive building and again I've looked at it our Consulting team back in 1981 looked at it other people have looked at it including Mr Taylor and found it to be architecturally and historically significant and you heard um Council for the appellant mention uh relocating the building uh within the historic district do you have an opinion on that well I do and always the best case scenario is a building because of its setting be preserved in place certain things would be lost in the move the foundations possibly the chimney but a move is if there's no other uh prutin I guess in feasible alternative is sort of the langues that that is used uh that could be a possibility and I will point this out one of The Proud accomplishments that I had here when I did my research is I was the one that found Fort Shannon documented Fort Shannon uh officers barracks and it was originally down in front of the uh holiday in and it was moved to the same park so the thing that's important about that is I think it's coordinated probably with the Florida shipo the state historic preservation officer office so that if it did if it was moved the setting would be appropriate and it could still maintain its El ibility is a contributing structure to the district so that I think is is a is a possibility again the the the preference is always preservation in place but I think it could be done so that uh it wouldn't lose its historic status okay thank you um no further questions at this time I would like to call excuse me Mr you want to cross can I redirect you want to do that now or at the close what I don't no we we have a we have a template that I'm following yeah no worries so am I excused you're excused um and the city would now like to call Mr Larry Beaton Madame mayor if I may swear in Mr Beaton where he is and if you find appropriate I have a handheld mic I can offer Mr beon so okay so that he can sit back down once I swear him in if that's it's okay Mr Beaton thank you for Rising for me if you would please raise your right hand and repeat after me I Larry Beaton I Larry Beaton do solemnly swear do solemnly swear to tell the truth the whole truth to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the and nothing but the truth so help you God so help me God thank you Mr be you may have a seat sir thank you thank you Mr Beaton what is your role on the historic preservation board I'm the representative from the putton County Historical Society is called for in the ordinance and have you been recognized by the city of Paka for being a historian for putam County uh for the city of Paca yes the honorary historian for the city of Paca okay and you currently serve on the historic board correct yes and did you make the most to deny the request for demolition um that was applied for by St Marks yes I did and why did you do that well primarily I see my role on the board as having a historic reflection on the buildings that are under consideration um I had researched the history of this building as much as I was able to locate and found as the gentleman uh alluded to a very rich history of this building not only for the church itself but the the entire city and I think it uh it's it's I mean I just uh the more you searched it the more information you found about Connections to putam County uh the connection with the putam in in addition to the BS it's it was very significant and several of the ministers who lived in the house went on to be very famous people in the Episcopal church so I'd love to I want to research more of that because I found that part so interesting I just ran out of time I understand do you have concerns about the demolition of this building the impact that it would have on the Integrity of the north historic district I really do um I I feel like it's an important contributing building to the north historic district and also the city of black in general um prior to my service on the historic preservation board the person that I replace was Clint Snider who was one of the founders of the Conley Snider mural committee prior to the establishment of the historic districts and the historic preservation board he told me that over 50 buildings in Bela that were over a hundred years old were demolished and so I see the role of the historic preservation board and the and the role of the city of Pac in preserving the historic districts as an important key to the future of colactive thank you no further questions uh and the city will rest its case now okay then now I get ask now go for it all right good evening sir how are you doing tonight how should I come to the mic and uh yeah I can give me the mic that'll work it I'll be very brief I I don't want to peek at your name I'm an open book I'm an open book so I noticed uh that during your your the side presentation you showed pictures that were of the old rectory but then you also really honed in on pictures of the actual main church building am I correct yes okay I also included that because I thought it's a part of that very very important I would consider it Statewide context okay and I agree with that now my question to you is a hypothetical if you only had the ability to save one which would you pick I am going to object on the records okay there's a hypothetical you don't have to answer but I know the answer you see that's like Solomon's child yes well I don't know there's a stepchild on the one end of the corner and then there's the preferred child on the other is what I would say um are you aware that that there is no Foundation actual foundation on that building uh I've looked at the pictures and I know it's a distress building that there's some very serious interior and I I assume structural structural problems so if you knew that it was actually on peers and those the the peers are actually deteriorated would that uh further you know enhance your opinion about the ability to move the structure well I think the benefit with this particular building is it's not a slab on grade building for example it is something that's raised so my experience is and again Fort Shannon offic Barracks I think was an example that was a rais peer building so a mover would be able to get I guess beams or whatever underneath it and would be able to I I I would agree with that okay thank you I I appreciate that and I have no further questions for you and I only have one question for Mr Beaton so uh Mr Beaton you said that Mr Snyder Clinton Snyder had had told you that there were over I think you said 50 buildings that were over 100 years old had been demolished is that is that a correct statement my memory is correct in what you said yes all right did you ever have any any ability to to get a list or any kind of um more of a documentation from Mr Snyder or that was that was basically local knowledge that was handed down to you basically from Mr Snyder oh sorry technology M testing one two three um I think without you have to repeat the question I I think uh what you're asking is do I have knowledge of any of the buildings that uh were demolished during or like a list is there a list is anybody have you ever actually had a chance to compile a list or no sir I have not personally compiled a list okay that's all I was asking thank you very much I appreciate that okay um just following along the template now um both parties have rested and now it goes to public comment um speakers are limited to three minutes each per usual I bet you do so miss [Laughter] kit algal kitchens 1027 South 12th Street Paca Florida and I've spoken at every meeting from the planning board the uh City commission that's been held concerning the demolition of this building since probably at least 10 or 15 years this has been going on and what I heard one of the people that spoke said it was since 2012 so it's been 22 years I would point out also I have the information of the houses that were removed by the city or burnt down I have a copy of Mr Clyde Middleton seniors in 195 52 aerial photograph of the city of patka I counted 39 buildings that had been removed from downtown Paca historic buildings in the 1880s from that photograph you can look at the photograph you can look at the current photograph and anybody can tell what buildings have been removed plus I'm familiar with them I can walk you down the street and show you where they were and tell you what they were now that being said I just want to point out under Mr Char Mr charau did a very good uh uh job of representing what I said uh I'm the one the one who spoke out and I said this and then uh Mr leaper also said the same thing if you remove a historic building from a historic district it is detrimental because the historic districts are based on the number of historic buildings in the district when you remove the number of buildings in then then it does cause a problem for the historic district and I too thought that in fact I know there are additional grants because the only grants that I heard Mr Taylor mentioned were one or two and I know being a member of the Historical Society living in a historical house and trying to find grants I know there's a lot more available and Mr leaper brought him out and as far as Equity I thought about that um the equity of the church that's very important the church is one entity if a corporation owns a parcel of land that's one entity it's not the members of the church is the entity the church is an entity so the equity of the one entity compared to the 60 to 100 other individual ENT entities in the historic district because if the dist if the district goes away or it gets diminished any then all those other owners are gonna have a problem they'll be out of the district but they won't have the benefits so I think you have to consider the equity of the in church as one individual owner and compare it to all the others which probably is between 60 and 100 thank you very much thank you mayor Commissioners good evening Phil lirry um 6052 Silver Lake Drive patka um P the record since it's on record um I'm former planning zoning and building director for the county and also had the pleasure to serve as a Paca City Commissioner and I was actually on the Commission in 2011 and 2012 when this this whole issue was brought up and former uh planning and development director Thad Crow was adamantly in support of demolition of the building and he and I had worked together and have been colleagues over the years and you know the fact of the matter is is that um the demolition this building will actually enhance the blight to Bright program that the city has and you know I grew up a block from the old Furniture Factory down there which is a historical was a historical you know after it been now depleted to nothing the Wilson cyers company the fact of the matter is you can't save everything and certainly not with a church that's budget $135,000 a year I can't imagine that the city would want to spend $700,000 rehabbing a building when you could build 120 habitat houses for $700,000 we have a significant need this is not St John's County we have 500 plus students in our school system that are homeless homeless 500 out of 10,000 students we have so much need for things in our community to waste money on something that I can tell you you don't have to be uh an expert in engineer or construction what and I bet none of the the historical board walked got looked to the inside of that building you know it's just the most um egregious thing that that could be put on a church congregation and all of you understand the situation that we're in the final thing I'll tell you is that you know over your term you make hundreds of difficult decisions I understand that I set where you are but let me tell you this this is not one of them this should be an easy decision thank you thank you Mary Jane Rosa 317 Madison Street I'm in the north historic district I'm also a member of St Mark's church because I love architecture and I'll tell you a little bit about where I come from and what I've done I went there um to attend a service because I wanted to see the inside of the church it's it's magnificent for those of you who have not gone please go and look at the church I st I'm now a congregant of the church but I'm here to tell you a little about about why I voted to have the building removed my background is that I was a vice president of a major Hotel company in the United States I'm originally from Boston I am an interior designer not an architect but I have worked on many Hotel projects um one of the ones that I'm proudest of is adaptive reuse of full city block of what used to be a department store the original facade was from 1820 and it was restored we got Federal grant money it was an incredible project we turned it into sorry we turned it into a 350 room hotel which now employs 400 people that we actually trained to work at the hotel because we got money from HUD to put people to work and uh I'm very proud we saved a building which had been vacated for 15 years the city owned it for a dollar the city's now making money because we did this you can't always have adaptive reuse and I realized that there is a history to this building and I'm the one who said it's bastardized architecture because yes people added on to it but unfortunately when they did it's not as beautiful as the original building and I understand it was under the aaces of the church but I also understand that that's the kind of thing that happens consistently it's very hard to find an old building and keep it and in this case I ask you to be sensitive to the cost also if this building is removed you're actually going to see more of the beauty of what's behind it on the corner because it's on the corner and when you drive down the street it's going to open everything so I agree that um it's a very hard decision um but I wanted to address you and let you know why I voted um it wasn't because I belonged to the church it's because I have studied architecture for years and um this is a changed building from what is in the rest of the neighborhood I am in the neighborhood so thank you hi my name is John Davis I am the director of St Marks I am a fairly new member uh to this community I've only been the Rector for seven months and so I've kind of been following this uh process as we've gone through that the thing I can say is that St Marks has been a substantial member of this community for over 170 years and uh it has been a really in a sense we I talk a lot about this it's one of my sort of passions it's really a thin place in this community and we talk about thin place from Celtic spirituality where the distance between Heaven and Earth gets very thin and you CS Lewis would call it a place where you feel the the weight of God's presence when it comes to the Mob house and our desire to remove it it comes down to an issue of stewardship what can we really do with this piece of property what can we do with this building there are many technical reasons for it to be removed and there's folks that have spoken to that already uh we are the stewards of this property in its whole all of those buildings uh We've re we've rebuilt after Hurricane Irma and right now we've identified over $100,000 of deferred maintenance that needs to be addressed a roof on the uh classroom building and other things that we have to do in terms of just to maintain that that property we begun a process to restore the James house on Main Street and um we as far as getting some grants for that work but the work before us is substantial and costly and we're committed to seeing those things that we have uh to completion the mob house is not essential to our operation and to restore it would be an unnecessary burden on this congregation St Marks has been and will be a significant and historical part of the pka Community not just by our buildings and property but by the ministry that we bring to serve and to give others to Bear witness to the love of God in Christ and should the Lord T we will continue that Ministry for another 170 Years thank you rever flag still here would you ask R flag to go next please I'm sorry how many additional speaker cards do you have good evening honorable mayor Commissioners thank you so much for your attention I know that the hour is well spent as the pastor Mount tab First Baptist Church next month will be 33 years when I became the pastor of Mount Taber in 1991 we were situated at 9113 Reed Street we never intended to leave Historic downtown Paca because of the situation and the circumstances concerning our facility it was astronomical to fix it we had had back in 1993 a quote of up to a half a million dollars to do the necessary repairs on that facility and we were told by the officials of the city of Palaca even after investing that amount in that facility that they could not guarantee us a certificate of occupancy to continue to Worship in that facility that facility we did everything that we knew to do to try to Salvage that facility and it was just too much I empathize with St Mark's Episcopal Church I recognize their value I recognize the value of historic but I also recognize that everything that is um of age some of it is ancient some of it is antique and some of it is dilapidated and we have to be able to recognize where that line is and I don't think that it is appropriate for the city of Paca to take a position by any means necessary to save it unless the city is contributing to the fund thank you for your attention hi my name is Jeanie pierce my address is 115 Walton Road in East patka I um have had the privilege of restoring two homes here in patka that I co-own um one in the South historic district and one in the north historic district which is adjacent to this property the church has been a great neighbor to us um I know a lot of the members of the church and I consider them my friends um it's not a um we restored the house next door it was vacant for 23 years it was an eyesore in the neighborhood and it was not a job that was um it was not cheaply done I mean it was an expensive Endeavor on our part and um I understand their position but I am opposed to having a park next door to the property that I co on I think that would be not be beneficial to our neighborhood we're in a little honey hole there it's what we call it anyway and um I just don't I I'm opposed to opening that property up to a park I think that would just be an invitation for vagrants homeless people totally opposed thank you Laura France 415 mahand Park Pac Florida I'm a parishioner at St Mark's church and I'm here just to and I'm Reverend flag's actually writing on my book that has been notes so give me a second um well they're very short notes so thank you all right um it was said earlier tonight that St Mark's Church is the outstanding building in the context of Paca and it really isn't the house that we are in question of demolishing I feel like the burden of the decision by the historic preservation board is unfair and intolerant and I would ask this board to think about reversing their decision and giving us an opportunity to make a place on that site of our property in which we have been very good stewards of our community we open our church up to our community and have spent much time and effort off the backs of our parishioners and it is a very small congregation to do what we can with that property to make it great for those around us not just the parishioners but those in our community and having this house as part of our complex to continue to try to maintain or restore is um a very big burden that is not fair to ask of our prisioners thank you hi my name is Tammy shean I live at 28 Madison Street Palaca Florida I'm right behind um St Mark's Episcopal Church I actually live in the Bert James Bert house my house was built 1864 I've been there for a little over 25 years um it does take money it does take a lot of money a lot of effort a lot of love and a lot of passion to keep up a historic building or a house when I moved in that building did not look the way it does I have watched over the course of time I've watched them pull sighting off and leave siding off for months and months and I couldn't understand why they were leaving this to the weather so that being said I I have seen neglect with it I've seen it firsthand um my husband and I have put a lot of money time and effort into our home you invited each one of you all are invited to come to my home our home and I will show you what we have done with our house it's beautiful we're very proud of it but it does take a lot of effort it wasn't something to be just thrown away um you do have to pay attention to what you have and you have to take care of it with anything um that is that old um I am not supportive of a garden there um we really watch security is a big issue that bothers me um let's just say we have had issues in the past so that bothers me the upkeep of the garden is it going to get too much for these uh ladies and gentlemen to keep up is the financial aspect of it going to be too much are they going to need to put a a parking lot there maybe one day um excuse me um yes they do a lot of programs for a lot of different um uh people they have done a lot of good but as neighbors we have been very patient they have fed the homeless they have had the Boy Scouts there they have had the Girl Scouts there they encroach on our parking area which is very narrow um after we had our water lines redone they narrowed our street so we've been very patient with them on that so I feel like we've been good neighbors and do know a lot of these ladies and gentlemen that go to this church it is not anything personal but as as if you look at who lives right there we live right there Ranna myself there's only about four or five homes right there we live there we see what goes on we're not living across the city we're not living in St Augustine we're not living blocks away it affects me it affects my husband it affects our family so thank you for your time okay um May no you may not you are a witness he he cannot also testify and then make public comment um the appellant attorney is now entitled to a rebuttal and summation Council okay okay um in closing uh or summation as you may want to put it um first I would like to point out that the case law that was um cited the Florida case law that was cited by my esteemed colleague Miss Jane West she's talking about the these Florida cases and if you listen to what they were dealing with it was uh oh it's not an undue burden that you can't erect vertical headstones it's it's not an undue burden that you can't house the homeless well if you notice those are restrictions from doing something those are not requirements for paying an an amount of money that is basically debilitating to the church and so it is the actual requirement of the salvaging or re reconstructing or rebuilding uh of the building that would be the substantial financial burden uh and that would be our position um there's a there is a cost to rebuilding the rectory it's it's as we said over one and a quarter million dollars according to the quote it doesn't include asbest lead-based paint issues doesn't include um issues of bringing it up to code with regard to accessibility Ada accessibility with regard to access to the second floor needing a possibly needing an exterior uh elevator uh those kind of items there um so I wanted to just really reiterate uh those points and um at the end of the day the mission of the church is basically doing God's work and what is that it's taking care of your neighbors taking care of those who are less fortunate than you um the expense that goes into not just maintaining one building or two buildings or three buildings but five buildings it has it's been a long-term financial burden on this church and it's just basically come to the point where it is no longer sustainable and I think we can all say we like old things as the older I get the the more I like old things anybody who knows my my my wife gay knows I like old things it's high quality she's got high quality um we'll ride [Laughter] together um but uh that being said you know the the the issue here is resources and the fact that the church simply doesn't have the resources and with that being said I I would suggest that you know the offer with the key was not ingest it was done for effect but it's not ingest so if anyone is interested in ownership of the building that offer remains open okay and that does it for the appeal so now this matter goes back to the commission if you'll take a look at your template um Commissioners you have a couple of options here your voting options are one affirm the decision of the historic preservation board approving of the certificate of appropriation that denied the request for demolition provide findings of fact and conclusions of law basically the demolition request is denied option two overturn the decision of the historic preservation board approving of the certificate of appropriation um appropriation appropriateness exactly thank you um provide for findings of fact and conclusions of law that would allow for the demolition to be permitted or finally remand the matter back to the historic preservation board to reconsider the issue with specific guidance on what sections of the code require additional evidence Andor testimony to justify the issuance of a certificate of appropriateness so those are your options I should advise you that the appellant has the ability as I indicated at the beginning to appeal um your decision if it does not go in their favor um and that would go to Circuit Court any questions before you commence deliberations okay no questions all right it's all you I would like to make a motion just to uh remand it back to the historic preservation board with some specific with specific guidance as it relates to um the decisions that need to be made in order so that's my suggestion is that a motion that's my motion to option three of mam May is your mic on probably I'm so sorry motion died due to lack of second sure so you uh affirm the decision of the historic preservation board they voted to deny the certificate of appropriateness for demolition so that would basically prohibit demolition that's option one or you can overturn option two is you can overturn the decision of your historic preservation board on the issuance of the certificate of appropriateness and that would allow for demolition to be permitted they can move forward I'm in favor for overt tury a second we have a motion in a second to overturn preservation board's decision all in favor I I opposed nay motion pass three to one we're gonna take a break again do you want to look straight through andish we have another we have more items on the agenda we have more items on the agenda yeah that's what I'm saying l a she have CH little SL ch you can we carry on with this meeting okay don't hey it is what it is I wish they would have waited for one more missed it by that much but get people back but I did want to wasn't so we're g to start up we have to keep going with the meeting folks okay good job okay we're going to go back to our regular meeting we're at regular business discussion Direction adopt resolution 2024 off 59 for Police Department Rook good evening again commission D McMillan go ahead Mr McMillan sorry um so uh recently we've closed on bids to re-roof or recot the police department roof as you are aware um this item has come up before you several times um they have had an actively leaking gr for some time um we've received bids from uh multiple vendors and we'd like to present to you two of the lowest most responsive bids for two different options while recommending one and actual our recommendation would be for the lowest qualified re-roof option of $117,000 approximately um there is a coding option for approximately $888,888 th000 difference in price between the two but when you look at the overall cost of ownership and maintenance and eventual replacement of the roofing system um and that if you were to coat that roof you would eventually have to replace it anyways within 15 years uh whereas if you were to re-roof it now you would have a 30 to 40y year lifespan in that so the the overall cost of Maintenance and ownership at the 15-year Mark is actually 66% less if you were to re-roof it today so this allows us to to I guess have more longevity and get more money or more value for the dollars that we do spend anybody have a questions any questions from excuse me so how do we mam mayor yes we do have two resolutions uh prepared okay so if uh the commission decides to go with one over the other we can move that particular motion based on what Mr McMillan the information Mr McMillan gave us on each of those options is which option would we like to go forward so that resolution can be read the regroup the regroup option seem to be is that the one Gonna Save Us the 66% in the long term correct yeah so let's go ahead and pull the trigger on that one I move that we um can I read thanks sorry um so I'm reading to you resolution number 2024 r59 it's B to re roof a resolution of the city of Paca Florida awarding ICB 202 323 City pla TD re roof to Armstrong roofing for an amount not to exceed [Music] $17,300 that but if we have to remove say additional air conditioning curbing or replace something like that when they they remove the roofing material we just don't want to have to have uh a reapprovals 17,000 extra it's $10,000 extra so 10 okay what well anybody want to make a motion to it's right It's 301 and that contingency is held on both items just as a safety net essentially if we do encounter unforeseen in either the coding or in the re-roofing but but they have went up there and inspected so they should know what it costs I mean given this cost estimate so how's the 10,000 I I don't really get that one see something without fully removing every component on the roof we we just want to have a cushion for any unforeseen when someone come to my house to re roof my my roof it can't be a $10,000 unforeseen I mean well of course that's still a different size roof however you want expect 10,000 I wouldn't but we don't want to expect those to stay the 66% uh for later cost and it's going to last longer than the silicone yes sir I moved to to go ahead and go along with real second we have a motion to Second all in favor I any opposition thank you thank you I don't want to drag this meeting out but I feel like I have to add um an issue that's been raised um by the community and it's request from Mr Bell to have um the GPS system disconnected from the city vehicle Mr Bill did ask me on the 27th of February met if that was possible and I said at that time I certainly couldn't make that decision alone and also would have to check policies um and then I saw in the article to the paper today that in fact it has been disconnected um and I don't know if anybody else on this commission provided authorization to do that we can't provide authorization I know we can't I'm just checking because then Who provided authorization to have that disconnected uh he's the city manager that's a day-to-day operation then also an opposition of City policy no that was an error in the uh pla daily newspapers Artic so pause and I want to make sure that we're clear is this an emergency item that we need to address because it's not that's at the discretion of the board that's what I'm trying to make sure because we're deviating well that was just a discussion I know as soon as we get to commission and at the end of the meeting everybody dashes out here so there is no opportunity to bring the discussion up further if we want to call an emergency that's fine I just want to make sure that it's properly okay thank you I can't make a motion but we have other business I know we do if we want to wait till after the a business mayor you can make a motion if you pass the gra if you're trying to make a motion but we just I'm just a tad bit confused how if we're deviating and this is an emergency item I will like to make sure that it's done properly if not let us conclude and if that's something that you want to bring up bring it up not against having the conversation but again we have other business that was not listed as a part of the agenda item and I just want to make sure that if this is something that we are going to bring up I want to know proper protocol to ensure that we are you give me that again it's at the discretion of the board if you deem it an emergency if you don't you can uh make sure that it's set for the agenda on the 28th I believe for discussion purposes next meeting is the 28th thank you and if that's the pleasure of the board we want to wait and put it on the next agenda that's fine we could address it but we need to officially accept it as a emergency item as we do other things in the past I just want direction from the attorney to say yes or no if we need to make this an emergency item to address because again we're putting this before other items that are listed but this was not listed and any other time we want to bring anything before the commission that's not been listed that we just make sure that it's an emergency item and this or if this was going to be a discussion at the commissioner's comment so I just want to make sure that we're following protocol for this that we've done in the past right if you're going to make this an emergency item you to consider and take action on you will have to make the motion to have it an emergency item placed on the agenda now or if you deem it to be an emergency right now or alternatively you can have it placed on the next agenda March 28th I'll make a motion that we finish with that's fine we can finish with the public go right to public hearing stand um public hearing first resolution M CR thank you madam mayor I'm presenting to you resolution number 2024 r57 page 335 of the agenda packet a resolution of the city of pank authorizing acceptance of the final plot of the zilia place phase two and authorizing all required signatures on behalf of the city of Pac and providing for scrier erors and I'll just make note in the packet I know it's way too tiny to read so we did place at each station a bigger plat for you to see and if that's still not big enough he has a myar that he can pass around because I couldn't read it myself second mayor Commissioners uh this is a request for a final plot for a three sub for a three lot subdivision it's located in the North side of Kelly Smith School Road between brown Lake Road and gay Lane and the intention of the African is to build three single family homes uh the preliminary PL of the project was approved by the planning board on September 5th 2023 and the final PL application was received by staff on November 14 2023 the application has been reviewed by staff and the planning board the planning board voted to approve the final PL with conditions at the February 6 2024 Meeting those condition has been addressed by the applicant and and satisfied and corrected the plat the final plat and the the proposed subdivision meets the requirements of the code the minimum 6,000 sare ft for R1 zoning and also the minimum 60 foot width of the lot uh the application is in conform with the county code I mean the city code and also with the Florida Statutes and is in and is consistent with the pimar pl staff is recommending a motion to approve the final PL application as it is stipulated in the in the resolution thank you is the applicant here Madame mayor um the applicant is present um via zoom and if I may mention she's the applicant on item a and Item B it's Toby McAn okay um does the applicant have anything they want to say about this request um I'm available if there's any questions does anybody have any questions with the applicant yeah but not excuse me no no no yet okay um I'm going to open the floor for public hearing on a is there anybody here for public hearing seeing none close public hearing um sure have did that Jan excuse me West do we have a motion to approve motion to approve second all in favor I any opposition thank you on to um B adopt resolution 2024 58 Miss CR thank you again um presenting to you items B which is resolution of the city of fla for authorizing acceptance of the final plat of the Ivy Street and and of authorizing all required signat on behalf of the city of Paka Florida and providing for scers airs thank you may commission this is a very similar uh final plat application the one you just voted on is also for a subdivision of a three lot he's located on the west side of Ivy Street just south of St John's Avenue and the intention of of the applicant is also to develop single family home three single family homes uh the pr preliminary PL for the project was approved by the planning board on the same day on September 5th 2023 uh the final application was received by staff November 14 2023 and the application was reviewed by staff and the planning board and the planning board approved at their February 6 2024 B unal to approve the final plat the proposed subdivision the ls meet the development standards for the request R2 zoning which is a minimum of 7500 square feet for each lot and a minimum 70 foot lot width the uh the plat is in conform with our code and with the Florida statues and is uh consistent with the preliminary approval of the plat thank you staff recommend a motion to approve does anybody have any questions of the applicant um we do have a request for public comment ma could you please come up and give you name and address for the Geraldine Littlefield Geraldine Littlefield Jarvis uh 2719 St John's Avenue um at the planning last planning meeting they said they were gonna have a swail on they added that I just want to make sure that it came to this meeting a sale maybe the applicant can can address that I'm not aware of the soil request for a soil Lisa was here at at last yeah I was not at that okay well it should be in the documentation that there is a sale is for the water they build it on their side of the property it's for water for drainage well and it was supposed to be added for the final one is what I understood so I just want to make sure it was added yeah there were condition attached the to the planning board approval there were some conditions that were attached to it and they been satisfied by the applicant in the final plat um so it has if it was there listed it was addressed it w well it was supposed to be added that's all I know and I don't know if I just want that's why I'm here to make sure that it is on the final one okay maybe we can refer to the applicant okay I think that um we will have to check that and get back to you and make sure it was is that okay yes yes thank you thank you um can I ask a question um the Swale was it on Kelly Smith School Road no this is no Ivy Street Ivy it's Ivy Street okay all right okay thank you thank you so my question is with this particular thing if we're voting to approve it do we need to table for a Time certain or how can we determine if that can't hear me I'm asking for clarification if we're to vote on this tonight and the provision that you spoke about was supposed to be added how can we verify if it's added or do we need to table this to a Time certain yeah I think it would be helpful to have perhaps the applicant speak yeah mad very I was going to suggest that maybe the applicant can can answer the question M mugan can you answer that question that was presented about the Swale yes um I was not told that there needed to be added a Swale to the plat that was not part of the conditions that I was given from Lisa that was at the last planning meeting I would wait the recommendation that we have this matter looked into second a motion a second to have this looked into further and and see so any discussion public comments yeah it's obvious that U Lua is no longer here so it's gonna revert back to you to look into that yeah make sure is included I I have reviewed the the the file I didn't see any reference to the Swale uh but anyway but are those meetings recorded but if you want to to be Contin with the next meeting then we we can continue doing it okay you can't do that sorry come up Miss Miss kitchens alary kitchens 1027 South 12th Street Palaca you may now fill out the blank card I left with you um I was at the meeting Lisa did indeed the reason they had to uh they at the first meeting they had to the the planning board either postponed it or tabled it to the next meeting because Lisa felt that there needed to be a Swale around the subdivision uh there's a low area basically a swamp area that used to be a pond and every time it rains it fills up it's to the west side of this prop property the developer built up these Lots about 2 feet high and the joining property owners were concerned about the runoff flooding their property and Miss uh Lisa did indeed recommend the the developer put a swell around the subdivision and I thought that it was to be added to the plaid and I thought it had be done been done I was at the meeting and I also spoke to Lisa after the meeting I am a witness to that as would be the video we had a we had public comment Clos public comment we had a motion and a second and discussion and then we opened it up for public comment again which is a little out of order okay it doesn't matter I the recommendation that we still have this matter looked into going to move it to the next meeting further investigation was that the motion I wasn't even listening because yes that was the original that was the original motion to table this item yes motions to table this item we have a second all in favor what dat Madam mayor next meeting to the next meeting thank you thank any n thank you motion pass unanimously see ordinance 20241 thank you thank you Madame May and I'm doing this old school actually flipping to the page forgive me good evening sorry BR no worries all right sorry ordinance number 20241 an ordinance of the city of black Florida amending appendex a the Fe schedule of the municipal code of the city plaque as it pertains to fees and other Char charges relating to chapter 86 utilities providing for cability providing for an effective dat providing for n BR Dennis blacka gas Authority I'm here for the reading and any questions questions for Mr Dennis here to read is this no any discussion on this item okay thank you anybody here for public comment say number close public comment we have a motion to approve I second motion second all in favor I any opposition thank you ordinance we're going to D ordinance 20242 orance you just read 20222 um from page 354 of the agenda packet an ordinance of the city pacque amending the tree protection ordinance to afford greater protection for trees and residential zonings prohibiting invasive trees to be used as replacement trees providing for scers errors and providing for an effective date thank you Miss Grace oh Miss Grace is here for public comment Madame mayor no no no tree committee yeah I'm the only one okay we were gonna have the tree committee speak during public comment but that's staff was presenting the item does anybody want to speak to this topic and if not I I certainly can this um ordinance was the result of the tree committee convening and requesting how they could uh go about affording more protection to residential areas with tree canopies um when I looked at our existing tree protection ordinance for some reason it Exempted residential zoning from the tree protection ordinance um so the pre tree protection ordinance that you have currently in place protects tree canopies in every zoning District except residential and so the change that was made was to delete those exemptions so you have consistent application through all zoning districts in the city and this Falls in line with what most municipalities in the State of Florida practice they they have those protective measures the other um thing that the tree committee wanted was and you'll see this at the very end the addition of the replacement trees shall not include species that have been identified as invasive species they felt that that was important so those are the the two changes to the tree protection ordinance and we have Miss Nicole Grace who is a member of the tree committee here to answer any questions that you might have does anybody have any questions in Miss Grace apparently not I'm going open the floor to public comment we have M kitchens public comment still illegal kitchens 1027 South 12th Street Paca Florida and while may I uh apologize for speaking out of turn the previous uh item I was over I was ignored for my public comment on item number seven and not called up so anyway I want to know does this residential tree ordinance apply to developers who are doing residential subdivisions residential plots and building residential houses or does this only apply to me and you all the individual people number one yes finish public comment well okay the other comment is this I know exactly why the residential was Exempted previous commissions did not want the blowback from the public when John Q public wants to cut down an oak tree on his house and have to get a permit for it and get the and get approval it was done as a matter of uh trying to make sure that you didn't have basically a civil war in the city of pacco uh and as far as invasive trees goes I have a big issue with that on one on one point only well two points number one I think it's called a Chinese Yaro and those things blow everywhere they grow in your yard you can't help they get there you got to cut them down cutting down trees cost a lot of money to the thousands of dollars and the other thing is camper trees are listed as invasive trees they have been in the State of Florida since the early 1800s if not earlier as a major uh production for camper so I object to the camper trees if they are still on the list is being called an invasive tree thank you okay I can address all three of those points um this uh protective measure would apply to all that was the whole point is to make it consistent so it applies to individual single family homes residential subdivisions developers if it's residential it this is going to apply it removes those exemptions um second there may have been a Civil War in the past but things have changed the Florida legislature enacted a preemption uh basically severely limiting the ability for local governments to regulate um the removal of trees so what has to be done now is you have to um get a certified Arborist to basically indicate that a tree is dangerous you submit that and boom you get your permit we can't do anything more than that so it's a very low bar already and finally as to the invasive section that is only if you are replacing a tree that you have removed under the tree protection ordinance it is not requiring that you remove your invasive species that you currently have in your yard thank you is there any discussion well okay I I have to agree with Miss Kens on um you know you have a tree it's almost like an act of Congress to cut one down and um getting the arborus and I'm on I was on that tree committee but getting the arborus come in and the cost that you associated with the getting these trees cut down and it could be for various reasons it could be a dangerous tree um it was a old oak tree that a neighbor called about and it took a lot of money and it took um resources that they didn't have to get actually it turned out to be a city problem because it was actually on the city property um but they they incurred more cost because nobody wanted to actually take ownership of the the tree um so I I I I I can relate what Miss kitchen is saying uh about these trees and if you're you're talking about overhanging like in the street I I kind of gota conf I'm confused on what you talking about by the you said canopy tree canopy what do you mean about it just the the the trees just a tree period so go ahead go ahead we we can't really regulate um any sort of removal of uh trees that are affecting a ride of way again we were preempted by the state legislature a few years ago so it's a very low bar in terms of um if you have an oak tree in your yard for example that you want to remove because let's say it's not a live oak it's a Laurel Oak or Water Oak that is not as good of a species and has a limited lifespan you get an arborist to come out say that it's decaying dangerous um that it might be a potential hazard in a hurricane and you can remove the tree that simple so what if what if someone have um Street Cheese healthy but it's uh deteriorating their roof because right now insurance companies are canceling people left and right due to stuff like that which that's a cost in itself but that tree is healthy that would be permissible as well again it's a very very low bar what we're seeing now the reason the tree committee um asked me to draft this language is because we are starting we are a tree City but which is why we have the tree Committee in order to have that certification we are seeing widespread destruction of pak's tree canopy right now especially in residential areas we just had a clear cutting on Edgemore and Mosley uh to make way for a subdivision and we couldn't do anything about it because because of this ordinance tying our hands y we don't want to impede development and grow but the word well anyway let's not go into that um no but this is what we're talking about right well except that wouldn't impede if doing things the right way does it necessarily impede growth people want a yard with tree canopy they don't necessarily want this vacant field U most people I know when they buy a new house so so let me ask this question attorney uh what would we have done differently in that location orley if if we act at this ordinance sure so um the property owner for those trees of of significance they would have to come to the city with a certified arborous letter saying that it was a dangerous tree or that it was somehow impeding structures my understanding is that it was a completely vacant lot so that wouldn't be applicable and then we would have to make that determination for the issuance of the so who so who what a city goes out and certify that kind of stuff so it's the same for all the other zoning districts the The Entity within the city and I believe it falls within the planning department uh that views it for commercial properties or all the other properties it would be the same process we're just no longer having the exemption for residential zone I'm asking that process because I don't know it so can you tell me did you planning department what do you do what's the process you mean when do you got am I asking a question pardon me so you mean when do you identify a significant Tree on a property who goes out and looks at that significant tree we have someone trying to put up a subdivision in the Lots where it's plenty of trees but mostly small right go ahead it does go to the planning department right they have to they have to submit a a survey a tree survey first and identify the trees that could be protected and then based on that then uh either they they remove the tree they have to remove the tree because of the construction but they have to replace those tree sometime it's one to one or one to two so we're not currently doing that now oh yeah we are wow that's part of the the standard for development I want to know okay but but but someone down line Miss like as Miss kitten said it was exempt for that reason in the past a hardship so I believe when it was exempt in the past was predated the legislature's preemption and so that's why it was causing such an uproar is my understanding of of the timing of all of this but now things have changed we have very limited ability to regulate the the removal of trees so this is this is kind of the bare minimum we can't actually do anything more than this we can't impose fines or anything like that c I have a question it may be posed to Jonathan um Jonathan has this letter been required for years or in the past like what's been the requirement or anything than other than residential yes uh but as our current ordinance provides resid Cal property is exempt commissioner Bor I think it's been miss miss West um she did um expound on it is that orderan well the state legislator did preempt all cities in I think 22 or 23 from um regulating any tree removals thank you so any further discussion do we have a motion motion to approve second all in favor I any opposition nay thank you motion pass three to one thank you given the time I'm going to request that if if the group is okay with that adding my discussion point to the next agenda do so the community hears the facts behind it I I think it's an emergency item you could okay it today that's fine Le I'm fine with that I didn't okay got a motion and second all in favoring it thank you any opposition no okay okay um as I mentioned Mr Bell did ask me when we met on February 27th I believe whether it was okay for the GPS system to be disconnected in the vehicle City Vehicle that's assigned to him and I didn't couldn't make that call obviously it would need the PO commission's approval if that was the case if I was going to make that call I can't make it insolation um and I wanted to look at the policies um and with that I I proceeded to try to look up all that information in the meantime apparently and I don't know when that happened the GPS device was disconnected um again I was asking how that decision was reached and who made that decision and I was just curious and the community's curious about how that happened I also would like uh if we can just add questions so that we and kind of roll through it I do have questions um with regards to um if previous city managers had the device on their vehicles when was the device added to this vehicle and who advised that it should be added to the the to the vehicle um those are my questions okay and who was able to answer those questions is no no no yeah and also who monitors it who who approved it who approved it who monit it so again what are the questions the original question was mayor's question yes who approved well my original question was who authorized disconnecting the GPS I can't answer that question there I can respond to that okay thank you Mr B so my original conversation I indicated to uh with you I indicated uh that I intended to remove the item and I asked if you had uh any specific objections to it uh but I did not ask for permission to remove it I indicated that I uh intended to remove it and so um at that time I indicated that my intention to remove it was BAS based on what the contract says and what the vehicle policy says and so um if you reference what was reported in the newspaper what was reported in the newspaper was inaccurate um and there should be a correction to it but if you actually go to the policy itself uh the vehicle policy says that the city manager vehicle and the commission vehicle um are effectively Exempted from uh the vehicle policy and it specifically refers to the vehicle policy uh for the city manager's vehicle uh to be governed by the contract and so if you go to my contract my contract but says clearly that it is for public and for private use so if if I could ask um the city clerk to bring up the Personnel policy um we can take a look at what the vehicle policy says and as she's bringing that up based on the vehicle policy when it came to my attention that the vehicle that I was given had a tracking system on it I felt as though that was uh a danger to my uh safety and my family safety and as has been mentioned before I am a former officer and I still do receive threats as a result of the work that I did uh so that was one of my concerns but also it was uh based on the expectation of privacy which is effectively what we talk about when we uh prevent putting cameras in two restrooms the expectation of privacy is there my contract stipulates that it's for public and private use and based on that as well as the vehicle policy um and which begins on page 115 but the specific reference is on page 118 uh the last paragraph where it says city manager and commission Vehicles would you read that Miss uh Grant City Manager commission Vehicles guidelines for use and operation of C Vehicles assigned to the city manager shall be governed by the contract from employment between the city and the city manager which shall supersede these guidelines in addition certain provisions of these guidelines may not be apply to the use by a City Commissioner of any vehicle designated for City commission use correct facing is weird sorry that's okay and so if you go to my contract I don't believe I don't know if you have a copy of that there but it does stipulate in the contract close out of one thing at one time I'm so sorry I'm so afraid of beeping and craziness right quite okay and the contract says if I'm reading it correctly city manager is required to be on call for 24 hours service which we set in recognition thereof the city shall provide maintain Ure and fuel a late model vehicle for city manager City business and personal use all personal use will be reported according to IRS regulations of the city managers W2 um but to kind of go to commissioner Campbell's question about whether previous city managers had device installed do we know the answer to that question uh the device was installed on the Traverse during the time when um city manager holes was with the city okay and so he used the vehicle with a device install yes ma'am thank you what was your other questions commissioner cam did he have a vehicle prior to that being installed no sir okay who authorized the installation of the tracker even at the time of mrol it came about after some discussion with the commission regarding vehicle tent and GPS tracking and at that time the majority of City vehicles uh had GPS trackers installed shortly thereafter so I will also note that there is a concern with regard to other vehicles that um operate within the city uh and their ability to be able to do their work so there probably needs to be a um review of the uh vehicle Pro policy specifically in the police department with regard to the uh reporting of information but if I'm recall correctly we had an extensive conversation regards to these policies and if these policies at that time were um and I'm talking that we've had these discussions um and I if I recall I do remember that the city manager and um commission Vehicles were omitted um I'm I mean I'm not for it or against it however I I do have some reservations with regards to um if it was taken to the mayor it should have been T brought to the commission as a whole if that was your intent to do so um just as a courtesy to the commission I had no reculation of it until last evening um but I do think that if you gave the mayor the courtesy the commission should have had the same courtesy um so that we would have been able to discuss this instead of it being introduced to us in the newspaper so I do feel that that is um for lack of better words to slap in the face but other than that um I mean if others did not have it I I was just more concerned of who authorized that it go on there the reason why it was authorized and why we didn't get the courtesy of knowing that it was going to be deactivated and so I can respond to that uh the conversation that I had with the mayor at the time was in our one-on-one and so as part of the one-on-one I had indicated to the mayor like I said that that was the intent um it was my intent to discuss that in the one-on-one conversations and so it was not intended to be a slap in the face or or any disrespect um however um it was my intent to have that conversation there in the one-on ones and realizing uh in the interum that uh it was a safety issue for myself and for my family I felt it was appropriate to um administratively address the issue of the tracking device Mr B I have I have a possible solution Maybe just I like to at least throw out here in terms of um even if uh tracking device but the city I think we might be able to just offer uh a a stip in every month for three or $400 for rental vehicle so it not only will it take out the tracking piece but it'll also probably remove some liability as it relates to um um city manager driving a city's vehicle so you I think we can do two things if we consider this that's just an a suggestion anybody else have any comments I think a policy would do better than uh adding more money throwing money at this um and I just create parameters um of the use um I I I can't say how that policy was supposed to be interpreted or utilized and we created however I think in the spirit of it it probably was created to say that the city manager could use the car for he don't have to just come to work to go home with it he could utilize the car throughout the community or what have you uh as he see fit um traveling uh and my concern would be passengers in the car uh would it be any coverage would it be any liability with any passengers in the vehicle because of course he's covered he or she is covered um but if we want to put parameters on it that's something that we could do as a commission um rental car that's that's a little farfetch for me to to go along with that that's giving them another giving them another vehicle um and then be paying another expense so we already have a car so U but I think the question hadn't been who put them who put the device on uh and then why that vehicle and um just how we want to proceed going forth are we is that what we want to do as a commission or is the commission consensus that we don't want to have that vehicle along with the commissioner vehicle TR I think it the I know I remember I guess the time frame we were talking about certain Vehicles having those tracking devices now um what I did here uh I don't know if uh that was correct but you said that the city manager Don Holmes was utilizing the vehicle with a tracking device yes sir do all the other City vehicles have tracking devices I guess and how many does have them you know no okay I'm just asking for CL not all just a tad Bic concern as to I'm still the answer the we're still not getting the answer of what who authorized or what authorized and it's just a general question like yeah so if I wasn't clear before I apologize following those discussions at a public commission meeting there were conversations with the city manager at the time Don Holmes and that was the authorization that was given to put the trackers on the majority of City Vehicles there were those related to Public Safety there's some Public Safety vehicles that do not have the trackers on them okay so I I would be just for the sake of time because I don't feel like we're going to resolve this on this evening and I think there was an a resolution or a recommendation that we do take in consideration other vehicles um so I would make this at the request to all let us dive into this a little bit more in another setting um I do believe that the hour has has been very well spent and we know that we've previously talked about making decisions we've been in here for some of us since 5 5:30 um the hour now is 10:30 um which is quite a deal and I think this is a matter that is does not just affect the city manager he is one proponent of this and it may affect others so just in good faith and good conscience and a clear mind um I would like to have this conversation another time I agree well we I think we need to give Direct as well before we break this meeting I think we need to give clear direction as to what we going to reconvene back to I mean I think in in my opinion I mean giving direction I would like to hear what's being proposed by the parties who the tracking devices would affect who don't currently have them or who have them I would like to actually see a list of PE list of um vehicles that have the tracking devices um I would like to see that but as far as Direction I mean that's I'm open to that's that was the you know just giv them that information as well as also uh looking at okay from a policy standpoint who who makes those decisions in terms of um adding or removing because I mean that because it's in the policy I think that's a but I think that particular thing is a day-to- DAT operation now things that affect the city manager being that that's our hire I feel that we should make that direction well and speaking on that as hire so how did the fact that he had a GPS on his car and the locations where he have been get to the newspaper if he reports the we I don't I don't know I mean I don't know yeah I mean somebody know and and and and here it is I I want to say this and I I can close it out um I I agree with commissioner borm about dissemination of information the mayor with all due respect is the chair of this board but we all should have the same information coming from you city manager uh about what's going on because that had been a problem in the past I think and I think that we definitely don't want that again we all need the same information uh with any concerns U and and maybe we could have avoided this by kind of like beating it to the newspaper and I think the given climate of a lot of different things we have to be mindful of that as well um but again in order for us to make this good decision I would make the recommendation that we end this meeting and that we go home reest and do you want a motion to adour well we had another thing as well well I mean um um we had a comment from um asku Vickers regarding uh a issue as it related to uh an accident that happened that I had no knowledge that a an officer was involved with so need a little bit more clarification around some of these things as it relates to um issues in the city that we learn about through other people Chief sh sure as it pertains to Mr vicker's statements um some accurate some very inaccurate um I'll start with first yes there was a individual who worked for the police department at the time involved in an accident on St John's Avenue that resulted in the DUI the DUI was done by FHP it was done and called in by the patrol supervisor at the time he did fact hit the vehicle and then go behind um the police department to notify the officers that he hit the vehicle uh the the distance that he traveled wasn't very far and and with his notification um didn't necessarily um lead to the fact that he was attempting to in any manner avoid um the accident or the responsibility he participated in all the acts that that needed to be participated in he was then um once notification was made that that the incident occurred he was then put on administrative leave and an IIA uh follow um once the IIA was complete uh the determination then as you know for disciplinary process must then come to the City Commissioner as a recommendation the IIA completed recommendation was for termination he once the IIA was completed he then resigned he has resigned from the police department all of the documentation has been turned over to HR as well as the city manager those files was provided to them um once the uh the investigation was completed um he does not no longer work with the department and as it uh was stated um incorrectly his background had no other DUIs in this was his first DUI and I can add add to that that um commission was immediately notified when this uh uh event took place right but we we were notifi notifi but we also was promised that we would get a followup and and that's and I and I sent a followup to you and an email that's correct regarding that particular thing that I after I heard that I want to understand and know better what what was the result and uh I think timely information is important in in my opinion timely information is super important and I will say that uh the chief uh was diligent in getting uh the report to me and I am still in the process of reviewing that report obviously the chief was uh made aware of it based on the uh uh Internal Affairs investigation what status is I didn't feel it was appropriate to make remarks until I finished the review of the report and that's why you haven't been updated because I'm not in a position to do that having not completed the review of the report but the chief uh evidently has information immediately available to him thank you but my only rebuttal to that is that if if that if is it appears that the individual who was in that act is no longer with the city I think you know in terms of reviewing reviewing that I don't know what we'll be looking for at that time but um I think communicating to the commission is super important M um we had we've had these issues before where we still learning things and that is not um acceptable in my opinion thank you e e