e e this is a test of the city of Paca audio system sounds good e e e e e e e e e e all right ladies and Gentlemen let's go ahead and call to order the historic preservation board Workshop of June 27th 2024 let's start if we could Madame city clerk with a reading of the notice of our special thank you to members Alan Sheffield Larry Bon Christopher Hollister Brianna Pierce Patty vot Timothy Jefferson and Alternate Mary Jane Rosa you're notified that special called workshop at the St preservation board is hereby call to commence on June 27 2024 City Hall located at 2011 north2 Street Paca Florida 32177 the workshop is called commence at 3:00 the purpose of the workshop is to cover educational topics to include expanded Ro historic preservation board govern yourselves accordingly Elizabeth V rensburg chair and Lorenzo ago planning director thank you very much I see chaplain mbery is with us today thank you very much sir if you could lead us in the invocation followed by the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America led by Patty V good evening everyone father again we thank you for this opportunity to come together we thank you for this board we thank you for every member we thank you for the wisdom God that you will grant unto your people that we may guide this city in a good direction we pray Lord that your hand will be upon us and bless us keep us Lord I pray for such a time as this we give you glory and honor for all that you do for us it is in Jesus's name we pray amen amen IED aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all thank you Madame city clerk if we could have the roll call please certainly Brianna Pierce present Mr Hollister is not present for the record Larry Beaton is excused for the record Miss vote present Mr Jefferson present Mr Sheffield is not present for the record I believe he was having some card difficulties or what otherwise he had planned to be here but that yes nature had other plans um so but I'm gonna Mark him excuse since it wasn't of his nature if that's okay absolutely um Mary Jane Rosa is absent for the record Jan rburg present thank you so much you have a quorum although it's a workshop thank you so much let's move on to public comments as we know public comments are limited to three minutes and we do not take action on items do we opening public comments we got a shake of the head so we will close those again and move on to discussion um I'd like to begin by saying thank you all for attending um our meetings have uh possibly because of the the nature of what we do uh run a lot later recently than we might have liked for them too and a lot of things have kind of gotten kicked down the road so to speak so I I thought it was important for us to get together today um to address some things that we have not been able to address um and also because so many of us are fairly new to the board I felt that it would be a great time for us to have some uh some refresher information and um some educational material presented to us so um before before we start with discussion item a which is discussion the mission of the historic preservation board um I actually asked for this to be put on the agenda today because I'm I'm sensing um that more and more we are being faced with difficult decisions um and I have um heard applicants say things along the lines of well I I thought they might have been more reasonable about that and I thought it was important to us to know in what our mission is as a historic preservation board and perhaps we might even um like to have our mission put at the top of our agenda to be read to everyone in attendance and all those out in Zoom land I know there's a huge crowd out there um so that people can know what our mission is and e showing you section 5476 of the historic preservation board this um section of the code is what's always provided to the city commission when they are a tasked with appointing a new member to the board um section 5476 states that first establishes the board there's hereby created a historic preservation Board of the city but other than it being established the next paragraph is the purpose of the board the purpose is for the responsibility for carrying out the aims of the article and for preserving and enhancing the character of theoric districts and sites is hereby vested in the storic preservation board so I'm I'm going to just interject here because this is different from your regular meetings um this is your Workshop um that you have called it is incumbent upon you to Workshop um you can certainly lean on staff for guidance but this is your opportunity to uh discuss if the the mission that is codified in the code is not meeting your objectives then you need to voice that so we can uh Circle back to capture your intent but this is your time okay Point well taken and thank you very much um I'm sorry I was operating under the assumption that there was something kind of in a nutshell um what's the code um there is the code and I have circulated this information back in the the fall in terms of what the historic preservation board is capable of doing you have a a long list of objectives I believe that was provided back then um we can certainly Circle back around to that sunny I think it was just a cut and paste right out of the code um so when in doubt the code governs the board I guess the better question is what what is it that you would like to discuss as part of the mission what what is the purpose I'd like to ask some stuff um my problem I shouldn't say problem my challenge go with challenge my challenge thank you better word um is that I find that the codes for the city don't always work with what I see or would hope to be the historic neighborhoods and how we can get the codes or ordinances or whatever the correct terminology is so um can I make it for instance like absolutely like the metal garages I don't see those um being in a historic district there are certain things that visually and and experience-wise in other historic neighborhoods and other cities and states and I've been to a lot of them um I see that it's a a tighter um what they have and what they don't have and what you know how things look and I I don't see that here at all I feel like if I was a stranger and I drove into our historic districts I would not know they were historic only by a sign that says so not by um the properties and um how they're kept up and by some of the stuff I see like the metals sheds and the metal garages and and other things and I would like to see if that's something that we could work on to perfect it more more absolutely if you want to compile you know historic districts can vary the gamut in terms of the criteria right so you look at a place like St Augustine the nation's oldest city has a very extensive um historic preservation guidelines I mean 21 pages to be exact um so if you want that level of detail keep in mind we don't have an internal historian um or anyone with anywhere near the experience that the St Augustine staff has they have an archaeolog yeah archaeologist on staff uh we don't have that so we need to be cognizant of the the practicalities of having a numerous code Provisions but with that being said if there's a list of criteria that you think given the recent cases that you've seen that you want to see codified and code we can get that in there we just need to know what the direction is from the board and and that is my feelings but it's I'm just one person we have a whole board here and I don't know how they feel and and and if we could talk about it and see if we can come up with something together that we agree upon okay Mr Jefferson I agree with you and I think that um signage of course is an easy way people come over here from Augustine or wherever and they drive around looking for nice old houses at Christmas and other times and if we had not every property having a sign but in front of the melon house as an example or The Gables or different properties maybe two or three per street that would give a little rhythm I were up in a small town like this outside Indianapolis and one Saturday morning we heard construction outside of our house and they're putting up a plaque big plaque that's still there and we didn't even know this when we my parents bought the house it was a site of the first log cabin in the county it was the site of the first marriage in the county and so you know some of those little things might be interesting for people and it might who knows we could we could have a little tour self tour it it's something that that I think that we talked about in in and great idea by the way um I I can recall talking about this a few times throughout the years and I it seems to me that it would fall to the homeowner to to purchase the sign but perhaps we would put together some guidelines for the signage um I guess where I was kind of going with it was something that that could be read at the beginning of our meetings just to give um applicants General Public kind of an idea of who we were or who we are and what we are charged with doing um and I just wrote something out quickly so you know please don't throw tomatoes but something along the lines of you know the the purpose of the historic preservation board is to Steward the architecture of properties in our City's historic districts by applying the guidelines of the Secretary of the Interior standards for historic preservation I mean short to the point sure and see yeah and it doesn't conflict with the code so yes that's where my problem is it doesn't it doesn't help us when when we have like the metal garages coming and stuff like that because it doesn't have that in there and that's like to fix that yeah I think that's different though I think what the chair is saying is put admission that would be read at the beginning of each meeting understood that yes and then about the the the the shed you know the metal shed that's something has to be addressed in the code you know you need to provide more certainty to the regulations that the standard that we have you know because they're they vague sometimes yes and how do we do that we need to be more precise you know so we would have to agree on that and say we want to do that and then and then we will prepare some absolutely I will prepare something and bring it back to you okay for discussion I you I after that if you give me the guidance on let let's run with the shed example okay okay no more metal sheds within the historic districts GES okay so that requires ancillary structures how's that um that requires uh a draft ordinance so the code can be efficiently changed so if you give me that idea I will draft something I'll circulate it back to you during one of your plan or board meetings and then you vote on it during that meeting and then it has a first and second hearing at the city commission level and then it gets adopted into our Municipal Code so that's the process okay thank you for clarifying that and I I think we all agree and we're we're all very cognizant of you know that that slippery slope of approving something one time makes it you know able for people to do over and over and over um okay well sir are there different codes for historic district versus just you know Paka Heights or whatever do we have specific codes for the historic district or they just Paka code yeah so you have uh within the historic districts it is a higher bar um you have a higher bar for U because you have the issuance of a certificate of appropriateness um that is not a requirement anywhere else in the city that is only a requirement in the historic districts um so we're we're I think we're running into issues and you can correct me if I'm wrong but I think the problem is is you're following um the department of Interiors guidelines they are guidelines uh they're not set in stone they're very helpful um but I think what I'm hearing is that you want to see something in our code that is not just aspirational guidelines but actual rules something that we can I would like that and I would like to propose that we do that now if possible like well you can't take we ask you no that we ask yes we want to do that and that you would if everybody agreed on that and then yeah I I agree that we we need more I yeah more defined more black and white of what we can and cannot approve because I know a lot of times people say well you approve so and so down the street for that but why won't you approve me for this and then go a couple cases down and then we approve it again so it's not we're not being consistent right and I think that if we had those guidelines in there we would have that consistency and we' be able to say no these are our codes we can't allow this but we can't allow that I think you would notice that it's a historic district more too yeah it'll be more everything looks the same and it doesn't look doesn't have the guidelines in those neighborhoods other than the house being big we have so many beautiful homes in PAC already that are not in historic district it's true right and I think it's important that if we're going to have the historic districts that we should they should be more defined yeah they we should make them as nice as possible I just I just like to point out that those guidelines of the Interior part interior they're there's standard guidelines me they're not standard the guidelines for historic structures they don't talk talk about story districts so if you want to something more specific you will have to go beyond those guidelines yeah and I think that's what we're asking if we possi can what I'm asking but in that let's get started on that process well metal sheds definitely although we all know that a met a metal shed can come and then it can go it really it's not attached to a building in any manner yeah the garage is absolutely um the that are on concrete foundation yes but you know we we have similar issues with with siding all the time where you know the the question is asked well we you know we we don't understand what what the objection is to party board um you know we we run into maybe not as often but we have run into questions about Windows where people have have wanted to know you know what what is the purpose of keeping that historic window I could go on about that for days um anding on the visible side from the street or or whether it's on the back that is absolutely true but you know if if you think about it if if you own said piece of property and you're doing something on the back of the of the building that we can't see what happens if you bought the lot behind you and now there's another road and now all of a sudden you can see the back of the property you know I mean there there's things that that seem to come up over and over and of course our our very favorite which is the after Thea COA that is a good right um so maybe what we should do is put a little bit of thought it you know into are those pretty much the top four the the metal shed garages the siding the windows the after the fact coas yeah yes for me it is I I would like just like to really tighten it up and like do the best that we possibly can I remember years ago when I was renovating the house on Fourth Street and Joff was code enforcement person at the time and boy he had me in tears more times than I can even tell you because I had to do this I had to do this I had to do this and this and he said to me at the time and I you know I was like yeah yeah he said you'll be glad when it's all over with and you have all those permits and all that stuff's done and you know what he was right so it was a hard lesson but I would like to see us tighten it up because it was good when I went to sell it it was good it's being that way it was good for the neighborhood the property value so on absolutely and I mean let's face it you know history is something that you really can't get back can't replace any NOP no okay so just so I understand um the metal shed sighting Windows after the fact coas um I I have noticed that you roofs are an issue every once in a while yes so do you want that included in it I would say include that as well railings railings had a few different spindle issues but after the fact it's one thing to do something and you you either you know projects have a have a life of their own you have do one and you do second thing and the third thing and the fourth thing you can't do four before you do three but when somebody has added something to the structure without any kind of permit from the county and I think one of the issues here is that they're throwing it to us and we're we don't have any teeth to say stop or this portion can go forward or the county can approve certain parts of it you know the county could approve an enclosure or a you know I mean I I do know what you mean and of course you know we we always realize that it can be appealed to the city commission and and hopefully they would take our thoughts into consideration as to why we made that decision but um that doesn't always happen um and and I I totally agree that that when you're we try to be as nice as we possibly can and as accommodating as we possibly can and really in a way that that isn't our job you know our job is kind of to follow the the letter of what we've been given um but it is incredibly difficult to to tell a homeowner you know these these windows that you put in without going through the proper channels are are not something that we think should be on this historic structure that's that's a hard thing to say so I'm I'm in total agreement that you know the more that we have by way of a this is why we say it um this is clearer now this uh this this is what we follow along with as we are making these just determinations I think would be very helpful to us as a board and I think the brochures that we're going to discuss will help with the people buying in the neighborhood to understand that there are all these guidelines before they proceed to start doing things yes one as an example when when uh we put the mini splits in my house the the contractor went to the county and they said no we won't give you a permit and he was busy working on that project and other projects I mean it's not his job to I mean it is but it isn't and so it kind of got lost over here the county put it back over here he came over here and then go you kind of got lost and then it went back to the county because I went over there and said what what's what's the process and so it kind of got lost over there and over here for a while like months so as someone who's gone through that process of I need this guy needs to finish or else he's going to walk and I'm not going to have air conditioning you know so he finished and so that was an after the fact but it was only because of the the relationship between the county and historical the the timeline came into play in other words yeah and and I'm I'm again you know I I I think that that honest mistakes certainly occur yeah um and this sounds to me that something that you know potentially fell through the cracks um I guess what I'm talking about is and I've been on this board for years is you know the the property owners that come to you and say I had no idea I moved to a a historic district nobody told me I moved here I had you know right no clue no clue no clue no clue um and you know you you can say as many times as you want well that was your homework um why didn't you do your homework but it does it puts us in a precarious position and I I do think we try to be as accommodating as we possibly can as a board um but you know it's it's a tough situation to be put in so I think between asking um if we can please look into um tightening up some of our information that we have that we make reference to as we make decisions I think it's a great idea um and I would be happy to I don't know exactly who I would hand the sort of mission statement to so that perhaps we could work on it a bit more but I'm kind of going back to again throwing it out there the mission of the historic preservation board is to Steward the architecture of properties in our City's historic districts by applying the guidelines of the Secretary of interior standards for historic preservation yeah you can hear that out stuff you know okay because I I I do feel like that is something that that I would be very comfortable reading at the beginning of each meeting so that that folks um you know in attendance and in Zoom world would would know that this is this is who we are this is what we are charged with doing and we do take it seriously yeah Madam chair I just want to point out you know to what Mr J suppos referring to about the confusion between what city and the county uh we have a much better coordination with the county today and actually the the count would not issue a permit when they see that is in the story District they will not issue perit unless you know there is a certificate that is sent by the city that you have approved oh that's that has approved so it's a very good coordination now I am thrilled to hear that I really am um I think everybody's getting on the same page yes I agree with you and I and I'm happy about that absolutely we are going the same direction you know they won't issue the permit until until they have that that's encouraging encaging to require if properties in the historic district to require that that's on the MLS listing information could the city say to the MLS the board realtors that are around here we are requiring that if the property is in the historic district that it needs to be on the in itself so the agent knows the customer Z everyone's Z now you know I I think we could ask very nicely but I don't think that we could force the issue so I can tell you having dealt with the fora board of realtors anything that you put on the MLS listing that could potentially detract from the sale um of the property they will object to itly and in fact if you try to do this I can guarantee you next legislative session there will be a ban preempting us from doing yeah I agree with because when I was a realtor I mean I still am even though I'm not practicing um we had brochures back then and when I sold the property I would include you know tell them that well an agent put in the description they put that it's a property is in a historic district many of them do some of them don't but if there were some incentive or some request by the city to say that I don't think we can go well if they make any kind of changes to their home and they require a permit we can also have the brochures at the County office and they can fact but it's also to address the thing that the point where I didn't know hisor District well and and I'm sorry but I would go back to as as a potential new property owner looking into purchasing something do your homework yeah and and a lot of times when you're going into a neighborhood to buy a home if you're looking to buy a historical home you're going to pinpoint which areas are historical or not you're not really going to go into an area go oh I like that house because it's not a historical I mean you're going to know either one or the other yeah you are but the investors aren't I mean I just drove around before the meeting here and you can see I mean there are lots of out ofate plates and you can see on the code enforcement um information out there on the B board there they're not from here well you know and there lots of investors snapping stuff up well and and once again if you're an investor one would think that you would do your homework yeah know the areas exactly not and and I I feel like we're gonna move along from this fairly quickly but um just just to give an example I love my home absolutely adore it um I'm over on Third Street I fell in love with it the moment that I saw it um did I spend time in the neighborhood in the evening no did I look into who the people were who lived around me no um therefore when I bought the house and I realized that that the home directly next door to me was was basically for all intensive purposes a boarding house and there were a lot of issues with noise and horrible things going on whose fault was that well that was my fault I didn't do my homework due diligence I went into it with blinders on and I paid the price all right um do we need some sort of a motion to move ahead you can't make a motion watch oh well there is that okay I I I took notes I I get I I'll have something for you on I don't have to worry today that issue I would request that if there are specific parameters um language from codes from other municipalities that you really like uh and you think would work well if you could just email it to me so I'm not spinning my wheels um I'm going to refer back on many things to St Augustine because I'm very familiar with it I've worked with that historic um Architectural Review Board many many times um so if you could just help me out there I'd appreciate it absolutely thank you so much um and thank you for letting me know that that's how workshops work I don't we don't do a lot of them so this is all about learning um let's move on to discussion Item B a presentation the sunshine dos and don'ts brought To Us by Madam City clerk MH okay good afternoon members of the board and staff thank you so much for the opportunity present to you guys today on the dos and don'ts of the Sunshine Law Madame planning clerk next slide if you would just scroll up just a tiny bit with the little other way there you go perfect all right so I was asked to go over some does and don'ts of the Florida Sunshine Law to go a little bit more in depth than I have in the past when I come before the board to speak about the Sunshine Law in general so the first SL is all the things to do then we'll go into the things not to do which is really just the flip of the things to do right all right do conduct all meetings in the public so that's kind of the biggest tenant of the sunshine law has that all board meetings of a board under the sunshine is in the public do provide reasonable notice to the public of all meetings and in the notice we specify the time and date and location of the meeting so that the public can participate do keep minute maintain detailed minutes of the meetings including discussions and decisions those minutes then become available to the public here's a side note if notes are transmitted between board members they become public record so a lot of times you'll see me or Renee after the meeting trying to find notes that were passed between board members is because they become part of the public record if they have anything to do with the meeting do allow public participation permit the public to attend and participate in the meetings give the board that give the opportunity to members of the public to speak on agenda items so a lot of times you'll hear two places during the meeting where public comment is taken a lot of times this board will open the floor to General Public comment in the beginning just to cover anything that someone may in the audience may want to speak and the purpose of this is to provide um an opportunity for the public to speak in a civil manner that may be something that's not on the agenda and then usually our chair opens up during regular business an an item for the public to speak on each agenda item just to ensure that they're being heard do ensure accessibility so a lot of times at the bottom of a public notice that you may read it'll say please contact the city clerk's office at least 24 hours before the meeting to ensure that reasonable accommodations are being made for those with accessibility this is actually a federal law the 88 Americans with Disabilities Act law and as you can tell we usually have most of our meetings in in this building and we have a ramp in the back so we we do try to make reasonable accommodations I'm going to I'm gonna mention that we recently had a request for additional pillows in the chamber I didn't want anyone to say that I was violating the American with with Disabilities Act so we made sure there's some additional pillows out there wow I feel powerful I think reasonable right you need some comfort okay we'll buy you some that's that's that's reasonable right and of course if it wasn't reasonable then then we could we maybe could say hey that's that's above and beyond our budget or that's above and beyond you know so try to make reasonable accommodations so the flip side of that the don'ts don't hold private meetings avoid public discussions outside of the public view don't use undisclosed communication channels so if there's an email a text or other communication between the board members about a matter to become before the board that would become public record we say to refrain doing that because of the the requirement of the Sunshine Law that all Communications between the board need to be in the public obviously emails and text messages would not be in the public view um don't ignore Quorum rules don't hold unofficial meetings without public notice right the do was do hold public meetings under public notice now the know is not not do it and as it constitutes an official meeting under the law don't restrict access to the records so that would mean that if you do email or text someone maybe maybe there was a situation where you had no idea they were going to come before the stor preservation board right and you exchanged a text with someone it's okay it happens you didn't know it was going to come before the board but once it does become before the board we would disclose that we wouldn't delete it and try to cover it up we would just disclose it hey this happened it was innocent and disclose it and move along don't avoid public input do not prevent public participation from the meetings right so the do was do allow public input so the doist don't restrain them from giving public input because and going back to what I initially said public input is the foundation of the law don't and here's the one for staff don't conduct polls outside of the meeting and it's for you guys too A lot of times especially when when you get into more situations and more controversial or more heated topics um there may become a desire and it's okay in in some states other than Florida it's just not okay in Florida and other states that follow the Sunshine Law to want to poll board members hey before we bring this before you we want to know kind of what your thoughts on this is but that can easily come into hey how are you going to vote on this topic so there's a fine line between hey can can you give me some of your thoughts to hey how are you going to to vote on that topic because that would be a violation of the Sunshine Law so before I move on to the next slide any questions on the dos and don'ts good refresher I think for some of you guys so move along in the presentation the next slide is on panel yeah anything I go oh please and then I don't hold private meetings so I think that means that as we're walking to the car we shouldn't talk about what just happened if there's a chance that it would come back before you no and there is a chance it can come back before you as you guys have recently seen with appeals it's possible that a property owner will appeal your decision it go to the commission for appeal and the commission remand it back to you so it's very well likely and there's a I think it's correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the P the pill is 15 case they have opportunity to appeal So within that 15-day window I would say don't discuss it amongst yourselves after that 15-day window then you might be okay how about something like this the sighting that's not new new sighting for the back of the house you know when we had a discussion as a group about that there was some I think someone sat in his chair who was okay with having the sighting and the back be different as I was I think actually Larry Beaton was so that is a big topic it's not a specific topic so can we have a discussion about what might be acceptable for Windows or sighting or things in in the I I I would say no honestly no because you're you're actually about to instruct me to draft an ordinance that we're going to have you vote on uh to bring up to the city Commission when yeah now we're going to vote on them but I mean you know a few months ago that's if if it's an issue that is reasonable to come before this board for a vote then no when and doubt no so when and doubt when yeah um and I mean it it is hard to do especially in a small community and it's even harder to do because so many of us are friends and you know and that and that's what goes back to if it accidentally happens because human don't try to hide that happen just was at Walmart and somebody came up to me and started talking and it's like I said I'm sorry you feel that way it's I she was just saying she didn't agree with something we did and I'm sorry sorry you feel that way but we as a board made that decision so is that talking out of school no because she doesn't serve on the board no okay yeah it's it's just among board MERS yeah the wa D sorry in in referring you back to previous presentations we've given in the past the the major tenant of the Sunshine Law and I'm sorry for any of you who may not be religious on this board but uh there's a quote that the Florida Le of cities uses is where two or more board members are gathered there the Sunshine Law is in the midst so if you are talking with someone who's not a member of the board there's not two or more of you present okay so you can talk to Jane do about it you just can't talk to Elizabeth Ben rburg okay um now the only caveat to that that I would raise red flags is if Jane Doe then goes around and talks to the other board members and uses what you said as a conduit then you'd run into issues so don't use Jane do as your conduit hey go tell Brianna that I said this can't do that then you get in trouble but yeah two or more board members is the rule of thumb so a new neighbor of mine being friendly how you blah blah blah thank you so much for buying the house you're going to fix it up oh yes I'm going to fix it up is that do you know that you need to get a a permit to do this work no I didn't know I said oh well you need to you need to contact the city and go get an application so that kind of that's information that's not saying yeah and I I see that you would have no problem with that Tim what and and matter of fact I think that's a good thing now when said neighbor came before us you would then and please correct me if I'm wrong say I would like to share exart communication that I had with the applicant he's my next door neighbor I encouraged him to talk to City staff City okay exactly it's it's it's more along the lines of okay well here's here's a ridiculous example um about a week ago you sent me a text asking if we were going to have the workshop and my immediate response was that's a sunny question uhhuh um well that's a sunny question she's she not over here anymore she moved I'm not in my seat but but again but my my take on the Sunshine Law is you know you and I talk about other things what type of wine we like what type of movies we're binge watching we just leave any topic of anything that could you called the meeting you called the meeting and she as the corresponding but I would person still air on the safe side and besides that I'm not the one that puts together the Corum the room and yeah does does that make sense I'm just I'm always going to air on this out of caution well so I have to ask you about any meeting that's coming and is can I add something to the agenda or do we have a are we having that meeting I mean I was bugging you for a week it's like are we having the meeting yeah the planning department has been coordinating a lot of the agendas of this board lately um but that being said staff welcomes communication between us and the board we we we love this board and we're here to serve this board and and to try to to make the Sunshine Law easier for you guys because no one is born knowing what the sunshine law says um and it takes years of understanding of what's a do and a don't so we we get all of that and we deal with it on a daily basis because we have multiple boards that we we so of course I didn't know what the procedure was so now I know any question you get it yeah well we no we get ready I'm a Senor Point person I usually as long as y'all are okay with me you know directing you to the right staff member every day I'm gonna send you an email and I would welcome that I I I appreciate like I I think I've told you guys in the past and I just keep saying it I appreciate what you guys do it's hard to set them on this Das and then see your friends and neighbors you know come to you with those questions like you're mentioning hey what about that sighting I I I didn't like that you guys decided that one because you guys have the tough decisions and that's one thing that staff or at least the department heads maybe not the city manager but the department heads we we don't have the ability to make make decisions like the board and the commission does so you guys as those appointed officials wear that hat of decision making um and we realize that it's a very difficult po to wear and we're we're glad to support you guys and I I think before you move on um at the bottom of don't conduct polls outside of meetings you mentioned sidebar conversations is that like for example if we're on camera before the meeting begins and we're all talking about our week I mean does is there what where are you going with that matters that are to come before the board no sidebar so this me this this meeting is called to order at a certain time and it's adjourned at a certain time sidebars could be maybe someone has their microphone muted and they're whispering and so and so's ear I don't like that project or I I think that's an amazing project be sure you vote on that that's where where I was going with sidebars those is because all the public has the right to to participate in the meeting and hear what you're saying so if you're purposely avoiding the public hearing you it would be a violation of the Sunshine Law it's kind of like those conversations where maybe eliz's talking and do that little backside whisper thing and the other Communications around was really trying to be communicated yeah yeah okay and and once again I I did moral to the story don't yeah just don't well and some of us have been on City boards for years and others of us you know this is kind of new to us I just I thought it was important that we all understood yeah no no notes no sidebars no Whispering no yeah about matters to come before you now if it's hey I love your dress you just look beautiful today or hey that's a great tie of course those whispers are fine because that's you guys building Rapport amongst you guys and working as a cohesive unit unit so when I when we say sidebars matters to come before you did I cover your questions Mr Jefferson perfect permission to move along uh yeah next page all right so next page so I was asked to go a little bit more in depth on penalties what happens if you don't violate if you do violate the Sunshine Law what are the teeth behind the law um this is something that in the past we actually have not covered with the majority of our boards the reason being we usually spend the majority of our time talking about what to do what not to do so this gets a little bit more in depth on well what happens if you violate the law so I went to two sources to create this slide I went to the Florida Sunshine manual and also I went to the city code now the sunshine manual I've tried to send it to you guys usually when someone gets appointed to the board and then when you're reappointed to the board I try to send you guys that link to the sunshine manual it does change periodically every year with different case law things like that that's added to it but usually the link doesn't change and if you Google Sunshine Law 2024 it should take you to the attorney general's website and that's where the electronic version is found so under this Florida Sunshine Law it say says a few bullet points of things that would take place one thing is that decisions taken at meetings may be voidable so say someone is doing that whispering or having that backdoor meeting if the applicant chooses to sue the city or or appeal to the City Commissioner the decision can be that the that the decision of the board was null and void because actions were taken that was out of the public view another thing could be removal from office and that's kind of you'll see when we touch base on the code about that a knowing violation so here comes kind of into back to what I was telling you guys knowingly violating the Sunshine Law and it just hey I'm a new board member I'm so sorry I made an accident are two different things and you can see some of that under the case law in Florida a knowing violation is punishable as a second degree misdemeanor which includes imprisonment up to 60 days and or fines of $500 whereas intentional violations may be punishable by a f of up to $500 this is kind of going back to the was their ill intent behind the communication or was it just an accident a lot of times judges will look at that and Jane can kind of speak more on that if needed another thing that can happen is attorney's fees can be awarded so say maybe an applicant had a subcontractor coming out and was and was doing work maybe they they're doing the work and all this is going going on kind of in the metal um that the judge in the case may decide hey all of this was voidable by that person having that sidebar conversation we're throwing it all out and we're also awarding attorney's fees because it was that much of malicious intent so turning to the city's code we talked a minute about the sunshine law says that there can be removal from office this is actually codified in section 5476 D3 the city commission may remove members for Just Cause like I said a minute ago staff we're not decision makers we in in no way shape or form um tell the commission who to appoint or who not to appoint or who to remove but you guys need to understand and it is staff's obligation to tell you guys that if you do willingly violate the law and the city commission becomes aware of that they can remove you for cause and that cause would be violation of the Sunshine Law yes sir I happen to be on the phone today with two mls's they're two Jacksonville the Northeast u f I forget neifar and Augustine has its own board of realtors and Mos could I contact someone at those offices and ask about putting in something in the listing because that's that's the way to do it to know that people it's like like we give notice you give notice to meetings that's sort of like our giving people notice they were coming to buy here are you asking if that violates Sunshine Law no I'm asking if I thought I'm sorry I thought we were finished with Sunshine not not what yeah okay but going back I'm back on the other one yeah I want to talk that I W to ask for permission from the board if I can contact the MLS All right well I tell you what let's let's let Sunny wrap up oh okay all right so I hate talking about penalties but I was asked to provide to you guys what the what the sunshine manual and the code says about the penalties so that kind of summarizes what I had to say any questions regarding penalties I hope we never get to that point so this is why the presentation usually doesn't go this far in depth because usually I just drill it in your heads the sunshine lot two or more you know don't talk you know you're good um but that if we actually had to talk about the teeth of the law that's what's before you on that slide is the teeth of the law thank you very much do we have questions no thank you thank you for going in depth and I appreciate it listen you do this you're get punished 60 days yeah not not not good let's not do that all right I'll turn it back over to Madam chair thank you s 59 nights thank you um Jane help us on Mr Jefferson's question if he wants to contact them fine go for it at least ask you know they have information okay I don't think you need the board's permission to do that it's inquir then I will there you go all right um are we ready to move along I was gonna say yes ma'am think it would be helpful like if you did a quarterly mailing just to your area um the North and South um I know when we moved here we looked at a house in the historic district and we were lucky enough to have a realtor who was willing to explain to us the procedures I had absolutely no idea that there was that kind of red tape involved I just always wanted an older home it it's blue well thank you and I I tell you what maybe we should um why don't we bring that to um the section of the agenda where we talk about possible great uses for that brochure where'd like to get okay thank you very much though and that was not me limiting public input by the way just so you know I'm teasing you all right moving down to um discussion item c um we thought to change the time of our historic preservation regular meeting um and this again is an item that I thought would be something we should talk about um so I ask to be included in this Workshop um as I mentioned earlier as we all know as board members uh lately our meetings have gotten longer and longer um this causes items which we would like to address which are on the agenda often times to get moved off to the next agenda for the next meeting which is equally long um it's part of the reason why we're here in a workshop today so another thing um that that comes to the front of my mind is that that thought of keeping City staff here past five o'clock if we don't have to do that why would we so I was going to um see how the rest of the board felt about maybe perhaps moving our meetings from five o'clock down to or pardon me from four o'clock down to 3 o'clock which really would allow us all the time that we need two hours is definitely plenty and it would not keep City staff um from being here you know past their I don't believe they have an expiration date but you know what I mean you do okay yeah I have a problem with that I have a job that I have to be at I mean or take leave um is there a way if items are not presented at a meeting we could do another meeting within that same month or something like that something where we can break it up and maybe have two meetings a month instead of just the I know I know I mean it's just the thing is I mean I guess maybe I'm unlike some I'm not self-employed I have a job job like a nine-o-five job job not saying that none of y'all don't have jobs but it's harder for me to take off time than I mean today it was almost like pulling teeth because I didn't read the attachment that was on the email of what time the board was meeting it just says Hey see it on the 27th I didn't see the time so I had to make a lot of arrangements at my office to try to get here in that time and literally I came in like four minutes before it started so that's just my concern about moving it up the only input I would add is these are volunteer boards um and it is going to be hard to recruit and you guys are missing some critical members of your board you're missing a banner and you're missing an attorney um so to the extent that those volunteers also have 9 to5 jobs it would be hard to fill those roles looking toward a compromise how about the uh the concept of continuing to have our monthly meetings at 4 o'clock as we have done and then um just going ahead and scheduling a quarterly Workshop to try to um take care of items that need to be moved forward on if we couldn't get to them on the agenda they appeared on do do you mean regular items or not regular no I mean I mean items such as today okay yeah um certainly not hold a workshop because we're speaking to an applicant about you know a project that requires a COA absolutely not just you know if if we have things that continue to fall through the cracks maybe try even twice a year to get together in a workshop of some function to to say well like today for example how many how many months have we've been going back and forth about the brochure a year yeah July is a year long time right so so items that are not necessarily need to be voted on have quarterly meetings kind of like our Refresh on Sunshine line kind of like what we're having today Refreshers um presentations I also would like to say that based on our conversation earlier with the stor the ordinances and stuff I think once we get all that straightened out and get it defined I don't think our conversations will be as long because it'll be more cut and dry because here it is okay we were I was struggling with a lot of that so yeah I think it will eliminate that all right so we we all feel that we could give the applicant and the public and anyone with any concerns the amount of time that they need to feel comfortable um that that we have heard them um but we could on our own part streamline ourselves a bit yeah okay I mean that that to me would be the perfect world scenario what about repeat um applications when they come back to us and I feel that when we get a repeat and they haven't done any change to their application but that's not very courteous or professional and here we're having to say it over and over again to do an applicant and it seems like it's happened more than once but maybe there's a way we can look at the reapplication if you call it that and nothing has really changed we just say no we we deny it don't go into reasons why and oh we're revisiting this and revisiting that it's like okay well well should you know what I'm saying we taking a long time on some of these some of these applications it does definitely feel like we're taking a long time because yeah we are taking a long time um I think I think if we ask an applicant to come back to us with further information that's one thing um but I I feel like as well there there are certainly parts of an application that we while we may feel strongly about this and we need more information this we we don't have a problem with it so I think it's it's on to us to to help the applicate keep kind of the the process going well if an applicate do they have any correspondence after our meeting with them and they're going come back next month is there any correspondence between month to month like so a week before our our next our second meeting with them maybe the someone on City staff getting in touch with the appli Chang your application have you done your homework have you done which we've asked you to do because sometimes it seems like they we're just doing it all over again we usually have contact with the applicant you know when the it continue and there are things that they need to address yeah uh staff usually calls them to see where they are with it most of the time we don't get respond back yeah so I was just seeing how we could tighten the meetings up a little bit I gotta all right um so I am sensing that we are not doing anything we're just going to uh be hopeful that our meetings could be a little more streamlined and we'll keep them at four o'clock as we do and then if we need to have a workshop for the the purposes of continuing education or moving items along um we will ask uh seems we're talking about times um just a reminder that our next meeting July 11th we have a city commission meeting too so our meeting might be a little bit short we might have to finish the meeting by five o'clock all right so we have one hour to begin and that'll be great training won't it yeah go ahead and say I won't be here at that meeting gonna be out of town I'm sorry please accept my absence oh okay actually are you hearing that yeah because I had said that I wouldn't be here because it was my birthday but then I haven't gotten any better offers so I was thinking coming um but that would mean that that you potentially have might I have a yeah you may not have a quorum all right well we will deal with that when we get to it yes all right are we ready to move on to discussion Item B our Infamous historic District's brochure um as you can all see on about page I'm gonna say eight no maybe seven I take it back it is not numbered it's more or less page 10 how about that um we we have been kicking this around quite a bit um it has changed considerably since we first looked at it I I believe that that everything that was on on my pretty please list um has gone into this um of course I wasn't privy to everyone else's list um because we all turned ours in separately but has everyone had a chance to have a look at this um because I would just mention one thing um I believe these will be printed in-house they're not going to a printer is that correct come on up Peter I think that's really at the direction of the board and what you want to do in City staff I guess where I was going with that is we're not going to print off like 20,000 of these I mean these can be changed if you know down the line we see something that needs to be again it's what you want and what the planning department wants this is wonderful start using it let's get her done get her done and and if you know three months or six months somebody oh what about this then we can change it okay I'd like to just know what the people's ideas on where they're going to get districted well we had certainly talked about um area Realtors we had certainly um I believe we spoke about the Chamber of Commerce um Title Company title title companies yeah yeah um what about the people that already are in the historic neighborhood I know you're not supposed to put stuff in people's mailboxes I know well I mean I I think that these first shures could definitely be um we could ask if the South historic district um neighborhood association would like a short stack of them um I I personally I think that anybody that would like a short stack of these we should give it to them but I think that we can you know Target and and I would be happy to volunteer to jump in the car with Peter when they're printed and help him get them out we can certainly do that I mean if we print them in house printing stuff on our city color copy cost 10 cents a 10 cents a page 10 10 cents a page and if it goes out you know I more yeah and this is not really um a mailable piece at the moment this is something you know in the future we could make it mailable um but but I I think we can yeah I don't think we're supposed to do that but I I think they look great Peter I think you've done a wonderful job um you know of course I'm not going to say it's upside down because that's you printed it like this for a reason um but I I think at the moment this this looks really good and it's exactly I believe what we wanted to happen I think as as you said there it's a fluid document you can change it on the fly as long as you know so we can change things I know we we we um Loreno and I talked about changing a couple of the photographs out uh which we can do we can as just something we can do month to month if we want to very easily yeah if you justify that justify the yes because I was reading character you know and historic the I is something like that is that possible we could do that yes yeah we certainly could do that the reason I'm laughing is Miss CR and I have a ongoing discussion about justification versus um ragged right but yes are we happy with this can we get some printed and we'll start getting them out there there's a couple of typos I'd like to address with Mr Willet if that's okay with the board absolutely I have a question is there a way that we can not to be too picky but pick better pictures yeah I'm not a fan of all of not a fan of that I mean you got a power line you got I mean it's not it's not depicting our historic as I was referring to Len and I were discussing changing exactly that photograph yeah so and yes I'm sure the typos and other care for the photo item I don't I mean there's I mean the one that Patty and I had um put the information together I mean was there no photos from that one that you could use I well actually have the I have the whole package here we we we can use whatever photograph you like us to use it's just I mean it just doesn't look very professional professional and friendly it's all I'm I'm not trust me I I don't take anything personally it's it's all subjective okay and we just I wanted to put a picture of the same Mark church I had a few shots of that and I was talking with Peter maybe we can s that picture with it got to use more yeah there's a I mean there's a lot of pictures that we could use I mean we can even use the Bron Holland House one of the older ones without the fence not a current photo the issue is that we we had to choose photographs we had R to and I took that photograph so we have rights to that so we have to choose we'll find a photograph that we have rights to to use yeah I'm sure there's plenty I mean yes out there that we could use that I'm sure the city has posted even on their page about the is in the historical society and stuff like that I do love the Ladies down here those we actually have rights to that because because those are those are actually historical photographs that a gentleman in the Panhandle colorizes his name is Bill price and they're all out of copyright they're all historic those photographs are from and yeah those photographs are from the Florida m project some of the Florida State archives and Mr Price gentleman his hobby is to is to colorize them so that's it's a right right fre photograph all right so we'll get the uh front photograph changed and then uh the Ty address yep and the we okay to just go ahead and start the distribution I think so yes I think it's time right yeah let's start yeah let's start with a few many houses are in the North and South you got what 60 something on the North side and is it 200 200 yeah 220 maybe so 300 yeah all right um moving that well we'll handle that okay all right let's move on to our final point of discussion this is item e um this is discussion as to options to protect the facades of buildings in the central business district um a memo from Mr Jefferson um I wouldn't call it a memo an email um asking what the options to protect the facades of historic uh buildings in the business district would be um who am I looking because he asked a direct question of staff is that something that staff is going to advise us of or should we work sh more along the lines of what we think should happen I'm not really sure where to go with this yeah I would think that Mr Jefferson tell us you know exactly what the what the purpose is I had a historic property in Vermont and I found out through the N the state preservation historic board what I forget what trust that you can actually sell the facade easement and that way it's protected so I own own this building I sell the easement the next buyer knows that they have this easement just like an easement to get through the property so that's why I use the word facade in there because in my mind it's like that would be wonderful if we could get somebody to buy up some important facades but if that's not going to happen we still I think because the business district is in the middle of the historic district the we need to have some cooperation about what's going on with the facades not inside the facades well I think the code is very spec there are very specific standards for design standards in our code for that District I think what's happening is and I and correct me if I'm wrong and it's hearsay but I was told that the downtown buildings are do not if they want to knock them down they can knock them down they're not protected in any way shape or form they don't come before us at all because like you know the SO gas station was knocked down I'm I'm hearing other buildings are getting ready to be knocked down so there's like anybody can do anything they want am I wrong about that well I'm not sure that they can do anything they want but we do have specific stand design standards in the code for renovations for alterations and for new development Redevelopment and I think I put in your packages and you can see don't know if know that because no I don't think I've ever seen anybody come well they they don't come to us because the downtown the the CBD is not a historic district yeah do they come before the the city planning department and say we're going to tear this down no the gas station fell down they were devastated by what happened Mr trano explained it they said that the the when they pulled the windows out the roof fell in that the windows were actually supporting the roof and they had no idea and so that was uh they're going to rebuild it so that it looks exactly like it did um and that that will actually be coming before you even so so many things I didn't know they said they allow the fire department to yeah I'm sorry that was what we were just saying they they would not come before us not no no no they will not come before the no we come before the planning board planning board so really the the only way to my mind that that this could be quote unquote fixed if indeed it's broken would be for the central business district to become a historic district in which case they would come before us however um what what the property owners in the central business district are going to say about you know another level of governance so to speak um wow has that been asked of the business district I believe it has yes you all have the um historic resource survey that was um done back in the 1980s where that particular I emailed it to all of you so I know you have it um where that particular area was surveyed um the business owners there the property owners have to be amendable to being within the perview of a historic district as much as you guys love being in a historic district there are downsides and they do see it as additional regulation they may not be in favor of being included in the historic district that's why you have a portion of the north historic district is not in the North historic district because those Property Owners didn't want you guys telling them what they could do with their property and and here we're referring to of course the mahand Park area behind the Bon mahand house well if I may ask this question if I may ask this question what uh what are the uh the boundaries um for that downtown historic district with the planning board can they just knock down any buildings they want to knock down you know what what are the guidelines for them that you tell them I'm not sure that there is any guidelin for demolition of existing buildings but there are guidelines uh design guideline standards for alteration repairs and it's very very specific if you look in your package you know goes from Onis and canopy tells you exactly what type of canopies how uh balconies so if they knock the building exium yeah to knock the building if I may if they knocked the building down and then they wanted to rebuild another one let's say then they would follow what you're saying there the facade and and the awnings and so on and so forth to follow come they want to demolish and I don't think there is any any provision in this particular standard for the Demolition and I would like to ask the attorney what what is that like because that downtown area is crucial to the city of Paka to me and and the joining of the historic districts and that's white people would come here you know not go to Walmart so that is completely out of this board's jurisdiction okay if that is something you want to pursue you're going to need to make that request through one of the City commissioners to have that place um on a city commission agenda in order to reconsider um any provision that this board has no ability to this is just a question we had but we didn't know so that would be two options with you Jane right one it would be like two options one would be to extend the perview of the St District to include that and the other one would be to expand the story District to inove those those portion the property owners would need to be in favor of the expansion to you're basically the way they view it is you're infringing on their property rights um so unless they're amount the majority is amendable that's not going to happen so or you go go before the commission and that or the commission and have some you know additional requirements for that particular downtown district when it comes to Demolition and new constructure or hope or hope and or hope and pray that new business owners want to try to preserve the downtown look right is there a code enforcement of that area SS code enforcement you know we see of course it does yeah so if there's a building with with no broken broken windows and things like that is there a code violation put on that property owner uh if we're made aware of it absolutely okay I'm new to town you know so I see buildings that are neglected and um and on the board they've come before us to say we want to tear them down because they're so bad off well if you had neglected them they wouldn't be so far off you know so I think I see some of that on on St St John's Avenue too case in point 720 St John's ad you may know it is the facade with nothing in it um we just negotiated a lean reduction they had tens of thousands of dollars um in leans on that particular property if you have a question of any property Patty knows this because she calls me all the time sorry I don't mind ever I really don't helpful thank you call me and just give me the address I need I can't work without an address if you want to know if there's a code violation on a particular address anywhere in the city call me I can look it up I can let you know the second part of that question is what is the code violation they get a letter and then what happens sure so there's a notice of violation and they have an opportunity to bring it into compliance if it's still not in compliance by I forget what their time frame is 30 days 30 days then they uh agenda it for a special magistrate hearing um our special magistrate here is an attorney named Ron Brown and he works through the docket of all the code violations um and he usually gives them an opportunity sometimes as much as 120 days to bring the property into compliance if they fail to do so lean goes on the property and that is part of the blight to Bright initiative that the city's been undertaking I have filed multiple foreclosures on um any lean that is not homesteaded within the city of Palaca moving forward with those foreclosures many in the historic so a lean in what amount of dollar amount it accumulates on a per DM basis it's usually $25 per violation we've got leans uh some of them are over $400,000 well violations per day violation day per day for violation and so but of course the the thing to remember is that City doesn't necessarily want the property they just want the property to come into compliance right and so per day so it's been a 100 days just for easy M that's $2500 and then it's it's uh 200 days and it's a year it's two years so it's $25 $25 is there a point where they ever have to pay or only when they sell when they sell or when I bring a foreclosure action okay so maybe they could pay that with their tax bill here's your tax bill and here's your your lean yeah I I think this might be something else that is completely out of our realm um however having said that um I I have been for some time um attending the special magistrates meetings um if I don't believe it would be a problem because they are publicly noticed if another board member were to come to a special magistrate meeting just to kind of get an understanding of the whole thing um Mr Brown is strongly encourage it and if you can't come in person AB all available on YouTube but you can't speak yeah but it it it is eye opening another thing that that I found out um which surprised me frankly is that there are homes um in Paca which have been sorely in need of um help and attention for years that the homeowners were not able to get anyone to for lack of a better word take them seriously and help them with these issues um when you know when they are then under code forcement you know now they've got violations um there have been cases when they've been able to get the help that they need um because of it and you know when it's a homestead the original Tiff money that we bought years ago was to address the code enforcement issues first it did and those were the first people that got the money and then it went by how much money you made the least amount all the way up till it got even but I thought that was really a good program because it did address that and get those areas done but I think it's changed yeah that particular program hasn't been offered in some time yeah it hasn't but we do have a new Grant available um and it's ends in September you can find information on the city's website but it's a grant building um for building improvements and if you want to contact Jade bags here at the city uh it's a matching Grant so you need to provide some of the funds but putham County also has one has some sort of program because my neighbor I thought it was through the tip but it wasn't it's a public um County yeah ship [Music] program uh one other question here so if a property is in the North or South historic district and they've gone through the process and they're doing the work is there a system of checking back with them did they really do or did they put something on the back of the house is there any you know checking and and again I would say that in going to the magistrates meetings there's always an update um given by um the well that's that's the that other topic I'm I'm switching topics I guess again well I was driving around today before I came here and so okay so so new topic from now on you have to State your topic before you pose your question all right new topic I went by the uh is this kind of going back to when we approve something and we ask them to within melon house so they're doing work on the melon house I see today driving by so that made me think oh are they tearing that off or are they fixing the roof I wasn't quite sure so I stopped and watched for a while it looked to me like they were repairing the roof if we don't watch they could you know in that case they could do something that was not approved by the board so is there a system in place whether that's wouldn't that wouldn't that be caught by the well if there is a building the building official yeah if there if there has been a building permit to do that work then the county will inspect okay they get regular inspections you know and and that was a question I had during one of our meetings for instance like the gate at one of the properties they were had a metal gate up and we asked them that's fine to have temporarily until you get your new gate we give you a limitation of three months but when I asked the question do we have anybody to follow up with it right the answer is no yeah I mean we don't they the city doesn't have that Staffing to go and make sure they check everything and then I also asked if they could just come back to us after three months and give us an update and that too I don't think was plausible yeah we are limited with resources it's just a reality we're going to have to contend with I can give you a brief update on melon house um their Lan was $144,000 we filed the Foreclosure action back in November we're having a settlement meeting on July 17th it's internal with lawyers um but they have new violations that they've been noticed on for that particular property as well all right thank you very much everyone much appreciated thank you board members for taking time out of your day and leaving your job sh um anything else to come before us otherwise I'd be looking for a motion to Aur just want to say thank you I like I like being able to have the discussion absolutely this is very very helpful and it does eliminate the length of our regular board meetings because I know we do get into some conversations at the end and it just kind of snowballs so I like I do like these workshops and it does I would like to have a day um don't forget to please leave the binder but that doesn't mean that you cannot remove PES thank you very much all those wonderful pages in the back with all sorts of information let's take those home with us yeah take the pages but not the binder got to Le the yeah you'll you'll be frisked on the way out but you can take whatever you want the way of paper when is the next magistrate meeting uh the third Tuesday 130 I have my finger on I thought the meeting was a j well now it is and we are adjourned by