e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e good afternoon ladies and Gentlemen let's go ahead and call to order the historic preservation board meeting for June 6 2024 we'll begin with the invocation led by chaplain mbery followed by the Pledge of Allegiance which I will ask uh Miss Rosa to please lead us in chap mberry Renee do you hear us might be doing something he's on Madame City Clerk in the interest of time may I ask Mr Sheffield to indeed lead us in the invocation thank you Mr Sheffield e yes madame city clerk the roll call please miss Brianna Pierce is not present for the record Mr Hollister present Mr Beaton is excused for the record Miss vote present Mr Jefferson present uh Mr Sheffield present um Mary Jane Rosa is sitting in for our as our alternate today present and and Madam chair present we have a quorum Madam chair thank you moving on to item D the appeals procedure which I will now read notice any person wishing to appeal any decision made by the planning board with respect to any matter considered at such meeting will need a will need a record of the proceedings and for such purpose may need to ensure that a Verbatim record of the proceedings is made which record includes the testimony and evidence upon which the appeal is to be based Florida statute 286 0105 and also noting that indeed it is the historic preservation board not the planning board moving on to exp parte communication board members anything to share thank you very much let's move on to item two on our agenda the approval of the minutes of the May 2nd 2024 meeting ladies gentlemen your thoughts I move that they be accepted as president thank you Mr Sheffield do we have a second thank you Miss vote all in favor please say I I and opposed excellent the minutes of the May 2nd 2024 historical preservation board meeting are approved moving on to public comments which are not related to agenda items and we ask that they be no longer than 3 minutes um and I don't have my script in front of me so pardon me um if there was something else let me know opening up public comments nonrelated to uh matters before us today seeing no one we will close the public comment section and move on to new business starting with item a HPB 24-13 a certificate of appropriateness for a metal garage Dex gazebo Pavilion for 416 Kirby Street yes ma'am and members of the board my name is Sher farmer I'm a planner with the city of Paca I've not been to a meeting before but you'll get used to seeing my face I hope welcome thank you I'll be presenting 2413 today for the certificate of uh appropriateness uh it is on as you mentioned 416 Kirby Street and the owner Mr Anthony kamacho is present in Chambers today uh we'll start with figure one it is the map of the property from the putham County tax assessor shows the location at the corner of Laurel and Kirby streets uh per the master site file and the cultural Source survey of patka the home is consistent with the frame vernacular style built in 1900 according to the putam county tax sucessor though the master site file dates it uh 1895 to 97 this home demonstrates a skilled Builder due to The Eclectic design and accommodation to Florida's climate the typical home of this period was a 2 to two and a half story frame dwelling with steeply pitched Gables this home exhibits the traditional Victorian color palette which was typically dark and Rich uh as you can see in the images figure two is from Kirby figure three is at the corner of Kirby and Laurel streets and figure four is viewed from Laurel Street the applicant requests a COA to make four improvements one installing a new fire safe garage to the rear of the property two extending the porch to the side and rear of the Home Three constructing a wooden gazebo in his large empty side lot and for installing a pavilion over his driveway figure five shows the structural Dimensions uh of the home as it appears on the putam County tax appraisers website note the opu or the unfinished open porch uh for future reference figure six is the image taken from the Florida Master site files published by the state of Florida department state of division of archives history and Records management and that is so you'll note the presence of and location of the garage structure along the back property the applicant has provided staff with all product information style and colors as you'll see in the following uh pages of your staff report but for project one uh the installation of an accessory building behind the main house the applicant proposes to install a steel structure to replace the current wooden one uh as you can see in the little red square there it is visible uh from the street behind his house because of his hobby uh he uses the structure sometimes for welding so replacing a wooden shed with a steel one makes sense for the safety of his woodf frame home and that of his neighbors the proposed garage replacement is shown in figures 8 9 and 10 here as you see on the screen and the colors match those of the main house so it will be not as obvious from the street as is the current structure the addition of the accessory building to the rear of the property is permissible use under the R1 zoning and it is specifically listed under Section 94-1 141 C2 while building materials for a shed are not explicitly expressed in the patka municipal code guidance from the US Department of the Interior secretary standards for rehabilitation and Illustrated guidelines on sustainability does make recommendations that new construction shall not destroy historic materials uh but that New York new work shall be differentiated from the old and shall be compatible with architectur architectural features pardon me to protect the historical Integrity of the environment they also state that new additions and adjacent or related new construction shall be undertaken in such a manner that if removed in the future the essential form and integr integrity of the historic property would be unimpaired additionally these guidelines recommend installation of periphery structures to be appropriately located at the rear of the property and compatible with the character of the site uh they do not oppose modern updates and materials instead uh just seek respect for the property and the visual impact uh these pictures show uh the owner applicant in his shop uh using a welder um to demonstrate that a metal shed would make a safer work environment the putham County tax assessor website documents a 20x30 detached garage on the furthest rear corner cor of the property and on the property line uh the current structure would sit on a concrete pad uh in the same location and the following images show the location of the pad in relation to the rear side and rear property line fence the fence between the properties of 416 and 420 is not a true indication of the property line and both owners of both properties are aware of this um it's likely due to the fact that both properties were previously owned by the same individual and they just kind of put a fence up somewhere there along the line um however the property line does fall to one side or the other um and they are both aware of that if placed along this line the outside edge of the shed however would not project outside the lines of the main structure um being that this is my first present I do want to ask do I stop here for project one or do I continue on for the whole um COA [Music] request okay project two then is adding a porch to the side and rear of the home uh figure 16 shows uh the uh the view of the main structure from the side um the applicant wishes to create an almost wraparound porch accessible on three sides of the main structure and again we saw that as part of the original uh floor plan uh from the putham County tax assessor site the applicant plans to build it from wood uh but has no plans to paint it at this time uh the side deck view is drawn if you'll scroll down just a little bit the applicant Drew what it would look like from the top and you can see where he has the cinder block columns that you can see in the picture directly above it figure 18 continues and shows this side porch the balls or spindles would be a little bit different he said and he will describe that for you and then uh the next structure again shows the north side of the main structure which adjoins the front porch and the proposed decking this image is the rear and uh exit of the main structure and again he has drawn some um rather precise Renditions of what it would look like from the rear from the top and again from the rear I guess I put that in twice oh no that's from the rear side okay project three would be constructing gazebo the third project on this application is the construction of a gazebo and uh the owner wants to maintain Pleasant sight lines and to limit the visibility of his new structures from the street the Gazebo would be similar to figure 24 and it would be made from the same materials as the proposed decking of the porches it would be centered somewhere on the North side yard and finally erecting a pavilion is Project number four and it would straddle the driveway in an approximate location there denoted by the red brackets uh he said it would be about uh 10 feet I believe or six to 10 feet he can tell you uh from the sidewalk area and it this uh figure 26 is the style of the structure staff has reviewed the application pursuant to the Palaca municipal code and has determined it is generally consistent with pertinent regulations I now uh present myself for your questions if you have [Music] any that is a good question and we did do the math on that and uh likely because of his uh extra side yard there he's in no threat of exceeding his lot coverage uh in fact he abbreviated his driveway uh to maintain a permeable uh structure there he he didn't PID the whole driveway he said because he didn't want to exceed that thank you and apologies my microphone wasn't onam city clerk but my question was as relates to lot coverage and thank you for answering that question I heard thank you ma'am but apparently no one in Zoom world did okay that that was my only question anyone else I have a question we we recently approved another uh metal structure and it had to be so far from property line is this one going to be the same distance from the property line there there are uh setbacks in the code and the owner is aware of them uh he'll have to address that issue because the concrete pad is in existence and uh it is in the same location that the previous structure was on the master site file it was tucked in the corner which uh seems to be what they did uh with historical structures I don't really know any more than that but it is tucked in the corner if you'll look at figure six uh it shows the uh footprint of the main home and then the Garage all the way in the back corner and the home uh directly behind it also had one and when he purchased the property he said it was still there and they were right next to each other and you can uh there are pictures that actually show that believe you can see it on Google Maps unless they've updated thank you Mr Hollister does that answer your question for now should we go ahead and hear from the applicant if so I had one other question oh so sorry please continue the thing the Pavilion you're going to put above the driveway is that going to be tall enough to allow a firet truck and or ambulance in uh you would have to ask Mr kamacho I don't have any measurements for that it's a very good question thank you Mr Hollister if you would let's ask Mr kamacho and and if we could invite him up to come and speak to us okay all right thank you by the way you did great thank you you're welcome good job sorry good afternoon Mr Hollister your name and address for the record kamacho 416 Kirby Street okay question one what do we what what am I answering first well if if you would like to give us any additional details that that you feel would be important to us in a decision- making process please feel free and then um I I believe we do have a couple of questions for you as far as the fire uh the fire truck if um the garage gets approved the second driveway of our property will re be reopened to allow access to get in and out okay I have two driveways in that property so no I I listen I didn't even think about that but you're right so that's one of them and here's the pictures of the original garage that was on the property line if anybody wants to actually see this you know please Google 601 there theyd and it's on thank you and if you would please when we're done taking a look everyone let's go ahead and pass those this direction so we can um my my question revolved around um I I wasn't quite certain from reading the application so this is just a point of clarification were you planning to remove that garage and put the metal building in Li of it well I need a metal garage that's wider and that that secondary garage has just been moved to the side it's a portable shed that's been moved to the side to allow construction of this garage if it's approved because I like you said I can't weld or do or work the torch in that current space understood thank you do we have additional questions for the applicant Miss Rosa yes um I'd like to know I'm looking at your drawing um the new metal building is 16.7 feet long and well that might be the old I got to see what you're looking at that might be I just need the size okay of the new building it's going to be 30 which ex this is by 23 be extra 10 foot wider than the original all right so the so the new building is the size it's larger than this dra wider by 10et by 10 feet okay thank you thank you Mr kamacha um we might ask you more questions but at this point um let's go ahead and open up for public comment and seeing then let's close public comment down um it it does strike me that we tend to take um applications with with multiple projects into consideration by kind of pulling things or lumping them together um I would imagine that we have more questions about the the metal building than we necessarily do about the Gazebo the driveway Pavilion and the porch would it be feasible possible ladies and gentlemen if we take the Gazebo the driveway Pavilion and the porch and we discuss those first because they seem relatively um transparent items to me if that's okay what are our thoughts indeed on um approving the Gazebo driveway Pavilion and porch this vote I would like to have a little more explanation on the porch I didn't really understand with the balls and the way your front porch is to begin with well I I wanted to I want more of a visual explanation for this the wraparound porch I'm not going to do the balancers because it's going to aede our view from the street I would like to do the 4x4 hog wire so we can see through the porch but right now it might just a regular standard 2x4 rails for safety but that's what that was about it's going to be constructed of wood like like in the drawings here yeah pressure treated wood decking materials so it's going to look just like a deck it's not going to look like an extension of the original portch that you have on there well it'll be attached to it so it it will have to be AO like a deck like a wood deck that's what you want to call it's going to be on the side yep and in the rear and also in the rear of the building and when you say the side side is it on the side extending from the garage or your your garage that you have your cboard can I see the one photos I don't have my photos on here where I just need to understand a little I'm I'm explain it to you all right that that works right there you see where the pick fence you see where the picket fences at that's all going to be the wraparound porch so I can do it floating deck if you want but that original carport for the original House it's useless to me so it needs to be a wraparound porch where we can sit there and enjoy the view on Laurel and you're saying it's going to come I'm looking all the way to the front which is uh Kirby Street you're saying it's coming out from the front you see where the first pillar is you see where the bucket at yes yes okay depending you are stop where the kayak is at okay enjoy that now I understand y okay all right thank you so basically if you look at figures 19 and 20 um actually figure 19 where you see that that little bit of lattice that is um blocking an opening yes that is where it would start and it would continue to the rear of the property exactly okay and it's only going to be as height as where that red ledger board is we need to actually step down okay so that way it just it's more appealing okay thank you very much Miss vote does that satisfy your question thank you excellent other questions regarding again gazebo driveway civilian and porch Mr shaffield yes just trying to still get a um confirm the visual on the on the wraparound porch so the existing um the existing post that we just looked at can you go back to that that picture uh you're saying those would not be the columns would not be moved I just want to confirm that half my house fall down if that happened well you could I didn't know if you're were going to replace them with something or or so you're you're saying the columns would not be moved that structure would stay and you're saying where the picket fence is that's where you'd end up with adding the wraparound porch then with the uh so you can sit there and have the view now to the far left there because you're the current front part of the porch I think is Stone there if I'm seeing that correct but am I seeing this picture correct are there going to be stairs it'll be a see where that first picket fence right in the middle yes that'll be a probably six foot wide St okay so that that long forward P got you that's what I was confused with this one oh so this post starts there oh okay yeah I'm sorry I got confused yes those are the three columns there I was thinking that far left one was starting with that second one yeah we want to be able to get out the car and then walk straight into our porch and then use it that way got you okay thank you Mr kach certainly Miss have you thought about staining the porch so that it kind of matches with the kind of red wood look you have well my porch is actually Brown and the problem with with coloring it is that when you step in the gray dirt you see nothing but footprint so I have to actually really consider what color I want because either it needs to go back to the light gray so it matches and blends with the footprints or I'm going to be painting it and Wasing it all week long so I have to think about it right now pressure treated if you don't stain it it actually Blends in with the footprints so I have to wait on that to see what actually comes out right and the material on that decking when you say it's going to blend in is it like a I'm H and I said she didn't hear it I'm sorry um like a cedar because that changes it's right now I'm using pressure treated okay thank you all right does any more M Rosa yes I have a question regarding the Pavilion your house is gorgeous The Pavilion is very crude architecturally I mean I realize that it has to support itself but in looking at it it's going to be very visible it's right next to your house and I'm wondering if you couldn't consider adding more detail to this so that it looks similar to the house like instead of using square wood use round so that it looks like the columns that are behind it because if you visualize what it's going to look like from certain portions of the street it's going to block your side porch to a degree and like the corner of the front corner of your house is going to be viewed through this and I just it it looks like a ranch in Montana it it doesn't look like it belongs with your house the Gazo is beautiful and it looks like it belongs with your house so that would be my point with the Pavilion I think it's a great idea to have one I wish I had one at my house but architecturally your house doesn't fit with this structure and before we go too much into this subject Mr kamacho um I'm I'm going to to lean in to M West um the driveway Pavilion is is of course in no way attached to the house um it's completely separate um if the new owner doesn't like it they would simply take it down um it it kind of to me falls into the area of um perhaps this is not our purview um what what you might put in your window box in the way of plannings doesn't really have much to do with us but I'm going to direct that question to miss West right so um the applicant does have to obtain a certificate of appropriateness from HPB for any sort of ancillary structures um on the property so he's going through the right procedure but you're right in terms of the Department of interior standards um this is not exactly applicable in terms of making sure that it aderes to those particular standards for architectural purposes it does thank you and Miss Rosa does that answer your question as well yes thank you thank you um would you like for Mr kamacho to answer yes okay so for the Pavilion it's not going to be the pitch too high for that it was just an example it's actually going to be a lower pitch and it's not going to go above my front porch pitch that construction is crucial for Vines I'm going to be planting Vines there there's a lot of homes here that has makeshift archways on the front area front doors I need mines to be strong enough for Vines okay we we have Beluga iine I think you call them but there's a couple natives here that I want that to be covered with my house has 95% Sun I get a cracked windshield every other we every other year and nothing survives my Plastics are melted so I just need something for the heavy heavy summer days and that Pavilion with the vine covers is going to help me out and two it tracks the birds the FL and and the other animals that can live in there so thank you yeah thank you thank you ladies and gentlemen are we ready to uh move forward with a determination on the Gazebo Pavilion and porch is Mr Sheffield I move that uh we approve uh for the Gazebo uh Pavilion and the porch uh as as presented do we want to make that a plural pches well I I'm considering this the portch as one project that will wraparound okay fair enough piece thank you Mr Sheffield do we have a second I'll second it thank you miss vot any other discussion if not all in favor please say I I and opposed excellent let's move on to the um metal building and we'll open it up again for um questions from the board to Mr kamacha I just one one question certainly um the wood one that you have in the back now of your property that one will be removed and this one will take its place correct not at this time right now right now that that hoses all my landscaping equipment my motorcycles and it's going to take me a while to establish everything that's going to be in that garage from equipment electri electricity and um right now I need it for both storages your ultimate goal shortterm goal is to remove it or Shrink it down so okay and am I correct in assuming that if if the garage was to be taken down it would need for Mr kamacho to come back and and talk to us about that Miss West are you referring to a demolition request yes ma'am I need some clarification pable it's a portable sh it's a it's it's right I can move it four feet anytime I want it's a portable portable okay thank you for clearing that up I I was a bit concerned or not concerned I was a bit confused because I thought that that structure was on the sandborn map no no the original one I showed you on that on that page that was their original one okay okay but they took it down one year before I purchased the house so that's why I'm trying to get it grandfather back into that same location okay thank you thank you for that clarification I don't know if it confused anyone else just me no no it's just it's it's the best place for both set setups certainly uh do we have other questions for Mr kamacho um about the metal building Mr Sheffield well I guess my my concern and and there was right your home is beautiful what you're planning to do here but I guess the pictures that I see represented here really looks totally industrial uh um and uh even though uh the the code may allow for this type of structure there in in terms of how it's going to fit or relate um I'm I'm struggling looking at the pictures that I that I see here as to how it it you can uh help this uh fit in with it because this this is going to be it's not going to be double the size but double the width almost um and so it's going to be a sizable structure uh there bigger than a two-car garage um all all of all of that and so help us with that is it intended to look exactly like like it is here with the yes Sonic can you get open that email I sent you please thank you in in 1899 you can buy steel garages for pennies you can go to stears ro box and and other places to buy these garages these steel garages are available at the homes they were trucked in horsed in trained in and everything else y if you go further down Sunny please you'll actually see the construction and everything else is almost exactly exactly what we're purchasing today with the exception is that crimping technology for the metal has been more approved scoll down just a little bit more there you go that's basically a one good setup with the ass they use Whitten doors please keep scrolling same setup same frame in the inside the difference is is the criming technology for the steel and if you go further down you might have to hit a link I'm not sure if I attached it yeah uh no keep going further down I'll show you keep going okay that uh I'm sorry one more down it's probably the last it's the last paragraph there you go that blue link right there this city has glorified to steel buildings in its area oh sorry this city has glorified the steel buildings okay one person steel building because it was the first car in the neighborhood in 1931 we have five steel buildings in Palaca just in the in the in the in the one block radius of here so it is historically the reason why we stopped using steel building it was because of the War World War II when metal was precious that's when they went back to Wood because wood was cheaper but now the technology changed if you keep scrolling down please you will see all types of Steel garages at older errors 1928 so it's going to fit but Mr Mr kachu that's that's not my no no I I say if you go to some of the earlier pictures that you started out in the presentation um I'm sorry now is gonna have to have you come out and and and reshare because some of those initial pictures those three four first three or four pictures that they showed that would be an amazing fit the way that was designed I know the inner structure is still and all all that but the um the exterior of those buildings of those steel garages were were absolutely wonderful and so when I look at this one compared to that that's where I I get lost in in asking well can we see something like this or go to the another one before I saw one that looked something like oh there was another one there that was that was absolutely beautiful or something like like this but something that more fit as opposed to what I'm I'm seeing here which is plain practical it's PL today and so are you just or are you going to add L later on I will beautify it myself okay I will put little things up like extra Vines little knickknack and like that but right now we got to work on my budget not your budget not nobody else's budget but right now we have concern my budget it's not the budget isn't the question right now no Mr what you're saying and I'm not here to argue or anything like that I'm just saying this is the price I got this is the standard plain chain what I can afford you know well I'm just saying I'm sorry didn't realize that let's let's use Emily so Emily yeah eventually I like to you know put little signs and stuff like that and make it into something little vintage but there's no reason to put that in the board now that's years from now can I ask a question excuse me Mr sheeld goad um the door I think the door is the issue on that because it's like a just a onear garage is there a big difference in price between it being a split door where it it looks more like yes like that $5,000 difference for for a door yes $5,000 wow and if that's if I'm going to do myself you want wouldn't one both five uh doors like that fireproof $5,000 thank you Mr thank you Miss vot um and and I know at a time like this we're we're all thinking probably um back to other metal sheds that have been approved and the the concept of um if this is allowed then that is allowed and I'm I don't know um all right again thank you Mr kamacho um understanding that that the uh the building is sitting on a a slab Landscaping obviously is going to be a little more little more difficult but but I think certainly you know some big pots with plants oh I'm definitely goingon to Do potted trees I'm just not there yet got once everything is done then I'll get into the Landscaping certainly and and once again um you know understanding that that this building is not attached to the structure it is temporary in nature etc etc um kind of like my my thoughts on the um driveway Pavilion nothing detrimental is happening to the house also with this being added this also with the steel garage is not a permanent structure it is bolted to the concrete but say I want to take it with me or the previous owner does not want it it's simple as just removing the bolts and taking it out it's only secure because of the Hurricanes thank you ladies gentlemen where are we leaning I think I talk too much sometime on the uh up here but I'm I'm still struggling and what I what I always try to do with this I try to find a way to make it work for the homeowners I really do but if there was some way we could understand that commitment level we're not trying trying to get into your pocket we're trying to deal with uh what is being approved and the consistency of the the the uh the look um um because one of the things we did previously we insisted upon um how the the exterior was going to be accented what what things were going to be added so that it was not going to have an an industrial look to it um and I want to be consistent with that because I think something like that a commitment um still allows for your practical ability to go through and use this in the way you need to for your hobby and in and everything else it's just my my my concern is just trying to uh meet a little bit or compromise together here to to get this so it doesn't have this rough Steel feel or or or look that's my concern Mr Sheffield um May I make a suggestion that might Aid the board um and thank you Miss West you read my mind I was just getting ready to say oh well go ahead go ahead oh no as far as saying Miss West could you guide us oh yeah so um it sounds like what I'm hearing from the board is primarily the uh door to the shed that is giving the appearance of the Industrial look uh perhaps the applicant would be amenable to uh painting the door in a manner that would reflect the sort of pain um imagery that you took note of on that first image even even that level of of of commitment because the same thing we did the before the Endor or what it's going to look like from the the the street not that it has to be um uh the Fireproof uh pull apart doors because that's going to be move I I wouldn't want those doors for my my I'd rather have a rollup but that's a very good idea in terms of the Aesthetics to be able to have something when it is down that it looks like it it was one of those that you had uh depicted in in in your presentation there I mean I can fabricate exterior folding doors but I can't be put on a time schedule like once the garage has been put up I need six months to put that on there because again you got to you're dealing with my budget okay so if you tell me hey Mr kamacho it'll be approved when you got you got let's say two years to give us barn doors then that's a little bit better than doing it tomorrow after it's put up and understanding Mr kamacha you you're not on of time constraint with the COA no I I appreciate it you know but again I would fabricate my metal doors myself why it's empty but I need to run my welders and my electricity and that's Way Long down the line you know what I I don't know that we were in the question fish still but I guess we're going for it in in what would you be what would your ask be now that you've heard from us in terms of our concern what would you propose uh and what would that ask be uh for approval now and that a time frame of x to get it to what stage what would because in order for us to approve something we've gota we we ask people for drawings the design all all of that other type of stuff um uh and so we we we always try to be as flexible as possible but what what would you be willing to make this well right now the the the the garage is colored exactly as my house white W window frame white door red accents red accents gray all the way above okay the only thing I can do and if and to me it don't make any sense is to literally put out a false cover for a door okay something swingable you won't even see this door from the streets first of all the other house that was approved didn't have this uh didn't have to change their doors the Walkers there there there's they had a little small wooden facade at it which is okay for for their Aesthetics but this front door you're not really going to see it from where it's going to be located between the Gazebo The Vines and everything else I mean I could put fake windows in there if you want like I can literally window frame a mirror so it looks like a house window and and do it that way so but you got to give me time and budget or you can just paint the door to make it look like you know just paint them to make it look like a door you don't have to put sliding doors in or anything just paint the door to make it look like a door I mean I can do I can do that if the boards are happy with me painting a the the roll up to make them look like a garage door I can do that I love the the color I appreciate that and that's that's all that that that that I would I would be asking so that it mirrors and looks and resembles your your home and maybe there are a couple two windows on the side there I don't know but then that big door is really the the the distractor there and if that was painted so that it it it uh was a facade if you will of of open I have no problem with that one the reason there's no windows there is because of the privacy and the noise level for the neb and stuff like that so I appreciate that part I can definitely do the painted facade I mean it personally strikes me as a little bit disney-esque this ask um but if it satisfies the board perhaps Mr Sheffield you would like to make it into a motion all right um thank you for your Co Co operation and flexibility in this first of all before I even make the motion but I like to move that um the um accessory building uh behind the main house be approved as submitted however we would add a painted facade that would have the front rolling door uh resemble um a double opening Barn Door uh and um two windows painted on the side or is that fake Windows fake yeah yeah no we're not installing yeah yeah fake Windows um and maintaining the the the uh colors we see consistent with your own that are been yes sorry I always mess up these motions go ahead no it was a great motion could you also add painted and or magnetic take a look oh okay all righty well painted and or magntic magnetic if I can say the word thank you m and I thought I was Thrifty look at Janea 21 bucks yeah there we go thank you Mr Sheffield do we have a second I'd like to make a comment um Mr kamacho your house is beautiful and I've watched all the work that you have done on it I think you have a good eye and good taste and I'm personally never okay with steel sheds but we don't have the ordinances and thing now not to have that so based on that and based on my past visual reputation of what you've done I feel confident that you will make it look good so I would make a second to it well thank you thank you very much Miss vot and well said thank you um we have a motion in a second do we have further discussion amongst the board if not all in favor please say I I and opposed excellent thank you Mr may I have one copy for the record [Music] please than thank you sir congatulations thank you so much moving on in our agenda under new business uh Item B HPB 24-17 this is a certificate of appropriateness for several exterior and interior improvements to 208 Main Street and we will now hear from City staff excuse me sir with with the backpack is that your cup underneath there or okay should we introduce him Jane before he runs out I'm so sorry um yes uh members of the historic preservation board this is our legal intern uh Joe help me out with your last name please thank you and he'll be with us for the next six weeks you can find him in my office if you want to say hi okay welcome welcome welcome don't run away you can stay he wants to run he wants to run no pressure we'll see you later okay Mr Jeep uh all right good afternoon uh members of the board um this is as you said before HPB case HPB 2417 a COA application for certificate of appropriateness for exterior and interior improvements this uh case here was a really good history lesson um and I do want to give uh a lot of credit to Mr Bob Taylor Who's with us today he's going to stand up here in a moment and give you all a presentation kind of look at this as more of a more of an introduction uh so this is a certificate of appropriateness for the structure at 208 Main Street which is adjacent right I mean it's directly next to the historic structure uh the St Mark's Episcopal Church at 200 Main Street uh of course goes by the name the the James house I will in a well if you can see there in figure one uh as a reference of where exactly that is of course it's just steps away from City Hall uh the former James house at 208 Main Street was constructed sometime between 1882 and 1884 as cited uh by the city's original sandborn maps and a report prepared on the behalf of St Mark's episc Episcopal Church by Mr Taylor um AIA uh the report uh Mr Taylor gave me was fantastic resource it was 110 pages and that's why I would like to mention that's the reason why it's not attached to your agenda but if you guys are interested in looking at it I'm sure Mr Taylor would be happy to provide it and we could provide it as well it's it's it's it really is a fascinating piece of pla history according to Mr Taylor the house was cared for and occupied for most of its useful life until it fell into disrepair sometime in the 1990s I'm sure he'll correct me on that if that's wrong but the church considered relocating the building in the past and for you know I think financial reasons it was found to be untenable the structure is historically significant to patka as the James house derives its name from Robert James listed as the property owner around 1910 and I'll let him uh tell you a little bit more about that in a minute uh so you can see Miss cran has had figures one and two up there figure two shows um kind of the current condition of where that's at from I think that's the street view from Main Street figure three is from the rear current view as well and then I have an undated photo here and I should include from that uh packet of photos that that I sent around pulled from there undated photo of of what the house looked like um quite a while ago with the porches and the picket fence and everything it's uh no longer there analysis on this so I guess the the important part the applicant has proposed exterior extensive exterior Restorations to the building including uh foundation wall and roof framing exterior siding doors and windows and extensive work to the interior which includes um additions such as restrooms and a cust room and improvements such as new Plumbing mechanical and electrical systems fixtures new flooring ceiling and wall finishes just really quickly there are findings of fact uh the application has been deemed complete and the restoration of the subject structure will preserve an important historic building for the city of Paka and with that I'd be happy to take your questions or we can go into the applicants um presentation actually I should mention too some of the renderings there are in appendix a should be following the staff report um figures one through four kind of give you a a look of what it may look like so thank you for your [Music] time I had a couple of questions I'd just like to start off with sure and if it's something that you can't answer Mr then we can certainly ask Mr Taylor um I noticed on the application for the COA um and I have a feeling this box was just checked by mistake under descript destion of requested work um it goes into porch Edition doors maintenance etc etc and it also ticks the box for relocation not to my knowledge I don't believe there's any plan to yeah that it was a surprise to me when you had pointed it out and I there's there's been no conversation of moving the I didn't think so but when I was going through my packet the past couple of days I was thinking to myself you know let let's just make sure we look at everything of course that would be a de yes um also it looked as though on some of the renderings um it was going with like a board and Baton to match St Marks but there's also the section um in here where we have some some um product specifications for um not only drop siding or Dutch lap but we also have another one for um bevel lap sighting so I was just wondering is It bordon Baton or are we looking at more of the the sighting that I think would originally have been on the house I'll let the architect I'll let the architect answer that one but you'll be leaving us soon and I'm to ask you lots of questions I know I know ladies gentlemen do we have other questions from Mr Chief or should we hear from the applicant great thank you sir thank you appreciate it Mr Taylor it's good to see you sir come on up and if you would your name and address for the record thank you Mr hbur uh my name is Bob Taylor 261 West River Road patka Florida thank you very much for allowing us to make this presentation today to answer your question it's basically a drop siding around the perimeter of the building except for the very front um and that's the novelty sighting or 105 sighting which occurs on the Chevron portion of the building a very front if you look at that um even the existing picture you can see the novelty sighting or the 105 sighting and all we're trying to do is replicate what was actually there beg your pardon than you oh okay didn't as it turns out I didn't say thank you for that clarification thank other questions very good um if you would uh why don't you go back to the black and white photograph uh the 1920 photograph that one right there and if you can make that bigger Sunny that would be great okay um what we have chosen to do is to try to make U the house look like it looked and this is about 1920 and you'll notice on the left side of the house there's it's like a casement door and uh on our renderings we've replicated that in the cas door notice at the top it's not a shutter or Louver that's there it's actually a window so that's what we're trying to do is restore and replicate what it looked like back in the 1920s a little different era perhaps just a little bit after that the front porch was added and it's interesting as I looked at the sandborn maps which I have I'm kind of getting off the script here so be with me you can see that about 1915 right after Robert James purchased the house is when it went through a major renovation Edition and I think that's when he put the porch on the front he did that very nice room in the back which is um Cypress siding and has a very nice Grill Wood Grill that was looks like handcrafted and there's a wind SE the Cypress wind Street and some of those are shown in that 110 P report that Mr rburg refers to um and I have the copies of the sandborn maps that we got from the University of Florida that shows basically from 1885 to 1941 so it shows you how the house was developed and simply stated we're trying to pick an ear which turn is about 1920 and make it look similar to that okay further questions if I may um we provided this information and deta detailed our chitectural construction documents which show and describe what it currently looks like and what we're proposing it to be the 3D renderings that we've included that Sunny has shown US helped to provide more effective views of what we would like for it to be in the completion our intent is to restore and reuse existing doors windows siding and trim and replace damaged or missing products with materials and products of like kind we plan to rebuild the front porch to replicate the picture from the 1920s and colors and new materials will be selected to reflect that period near the end of March this past March we presented these documents to the Department of his historical resources as required by a task of the grant that the church has received and they approved them as submitted so that was the third phase of our submission and we're preparing for the fourth and Final Phase at the end of this month uh shortly after that presentation to the historic resources board uh I met with Leo won Don peckam and the Fire Marshall to receive their comments and critique pertaining to our approach to preserve and restore the building because it's historic there's some things that they the code does allow us to do but structurally we felt that it was imperative to restore and repair the foundations and provide lateral stiffness for the roof and walls and um and structural elements so at this point my wife Dr Dian Taylor has produced a historical Narrative of the James house which I think you got the benefit of and I'd like to ask Diane to come and present that to you and then I'll have a remark at closing thank you Mr Taylor just as a point of reference Mrs Taylor is is that what you submitted your card for or did you that's right okay yes yeah Madam chair I believe it's up to you if you want to allow her to speak as as the applicant or not or if you want me to start a timer I mean I I wow a timer just seems awfully hard that's what I told him before the meeting I I told him you probably wouldn't even need a speaker card because of them they're technically together I just I my my question was you know I will be opening this up for a public comment I didn't know if if if you were part of it or this is well that was my fault I probably shouldn't have filled that out if I was part of the agenda absolutely no problem and please carry on without a timer well I think I can do it in three minutes well if you've been practicing then let's do it um my name is Diane Taylor and I leave at live at 261 West River Road in patka and you probably received a little brochure earlier this week um that's called why do we call 208 Main Street the James house and that's because since 1910 when Robert James bought the house it was probably known as the James house but then in 2002 when St Marks Episcopal Church acquired the property nobody knew what the James where the name came from the people in the church didn't know the name even today the people who have redone and and purchased the hotel James didn't know the James story so I thought it was important that we know it today because as Mr Chief said it's a fascinating history in 2018 I was tasked with writing a research on the buildings there at St Mark's Episcopal and of course the first step because I was new to Palatka my first step was to contact Larry Beaton the historian Emeritus for putham County and sure enough Larry knew exactly why it was called the James house that in 1903 Robert James had a very popular Cafe on 100 Lemon Street which is now St John's Avenue but it was the hot spot in town and he was famous for his fried oysters and for he had a truck farm so he would grow the vegetables himself so everything was fresh and he catered events and he was popular for the theater parties at the patka Opera House next door so he had quite a grand reputation and then in 1916 Dr George Welch here in town decided to build a luxury hotel in downtown patka and he secured the services of an architect from Jacksonville Henry James Clau who was a protege of Frank Lloyd Wright in the prairie style so clo came and Drew this three story hotel with all the amenities of New York City because Dr Welch wanted it to be a Fifth Avenue Palace and sure enough it was a beautiful structure and an interesting aside is that in 1929 kutho was again invited back to patka because one of our wealthy winter residents was James Ross melon of the melon banking family and so he wanted to build a prairie style library in the memory of his wife so he secured clo to do that and that's our beautiful larer art center now um but then um uh the um sorry I was train of thought oh I know here so when the hotel was built Robert James came down and signed a 10-year lease for a restaurant in the new hotel and so Dr Welch was so thrilled he named the hotel the hotel James so that's the origin of the name of the hotel but um the rest of the story is really fascinating ownership of lot 7 block nine in the original Paca track that became named 208 Main Street the first occupants of course were the indigenous people who lived here and their Village was right here in the settlement of patka and the name of the their settlement was Pita which meant Crossing it was the shortest place from the East side to the Paca side to get over the huge River but the next owner was Dr Nehemiah brush who was a physician and a land specula TST from New York City he bought 12200 Acres that was patka but he sold it to judge Isaac Bronson who we know now built his Sunny Point mansion and it's now called the Bronson M Holland House but interesting when Bronson was a US Congressman he sponsored the bill that made Florida estate in 1845 so Bronson sold the house in 1853 to Colonel Thomas hunt hunt was the deputy um General quartermaster for President James Madison and he was with the Army in the War of 1812 in the three seminol wars in the Mexican Mexican-American war and when he sold the property he sold it in 1869 to Captain Charles steans steans had been in the war between the states and he was wounded and imprisoned and paroled and he came to patka in the winter in the summertime and he was the organist for the church and contributed to the city and um voted in the city of Paca and went to Fort Meyers and became their Treasurer and city clerk then stean sold it to Mary Hart and Mary was the daughter of hubard Hart Who was the steamboat booat entrepreneur and hotel venue um uh Extravaganza that was the nent tourist industry in patka so then um Larry Beaton reported that he and then Mary sold the house I'm sorry to William Wilkerson Toler who is an English Barrister and he was practicing at the Queen's bench in England and he was also certified to practice before The Supreme Court in Hong Kong so Larry thinks that he's the one that built the house because the house was constructed in 1882 to 1884 and Larry found it on the bird's eye view of patka the little house is right next to the sanctuary the St March Sanctuary so then um Toler sold the house to as Willard who was the tax collector here and Willard was also the cashier at Dr Welch's Bank he now he opened a bank so um the story concludes again with Robert James purchasing the property in 1910 but the story of the people who own the house is just as rich as the lovely little house that we propose to restore now so thank you thank you very much Mrs Taylor I think it's significant to highlight that Diane has recently applied to the the historic preservation State of Florida for a $500,000 Grant to perform the construction and restoration of this building so please help us uh with that effort and hopefully that will come to and and again I have the copies of the Sanford uh Sanford sandboard maps from 1885 to 1941 I'd be happy to pass these to you 1910 1950 where Robert James had purchased the the James house you'll notice that's when the house got really big so obviously he was um prosperous and was able to make those Restorations and improvements and lastly on behalf of St Mark's episcop church I would appeal to you to approve these plans and I'll stand for questions um if if no one Minds um question for you Mr Taylor on I guess what would be our page 61 of 120 which is actually um your architectural rendering a1.1 um there's a small colored section that represents um The View as you look through the front door and it looks to me like that is the woodwork that I remember with such amazing Nostalgia from years and years ago that was inside the James house are you talking about the document the 110 page document no I was talking about um do you see what I mean Sunny um it page 60 of 120 and then the next page is it the agenda packet or not it's that thing where is that where do that say Mr where oh it's the 116 page Oh I thought the 116 page document wasn't in the agenda no that's it's page 61 of of our agenda packet okay yep yeah okay that looks like the structural sections it's the part in the lower left corner okay grow one more collar yeah yeah that that is the the turn scroll work that was that is correct that's what what I did I took a picture of PDF it and stuck it on the drawings that's exactly what I am so thrilled that that is still there isn't that interesting and it's in excellent condition are there coford ceilings I remember there were coford ceilings in there coford ceilings the coford ceilings I could not uh see any evidence of those so the ceilings in the spaces will be flat um there are different heights in the first two Gathering rooms the ceiling height is about 11 and a 12 feet 11.4 feet in the rear portion where I call it Gathering Room number two the ceiling height is about 10 fo8 but they're they're flat I couldn't see any evidence of conference alens okay I thank you I thought I recalled seeing those a long time ago so I could be wrong um Mr Jefferson what what's the timeline on this uh ration we will finish uh and submit the drawings at the end of this month the U DHR has basically three or four months to make their recommendations assuming we get approved by the DHR it would go to the legislature and then the legislator legislature would vote on funding next year so at the end of June 2025 we'll know whether or not we've gotten the Grant and we think it would take roughly a year and a few months to do the construction yes sir Mr Hollister um the uh handicap ramp yes that's not historic you know it's very interesting when you look at the Secretary of interior guidelines it says that you need to provide for Access for handicapp accessibility when you look at the Historical preservation requirements in chapter 12 of the existing building code it says you know there's sensitivity to handicapped accessibility and you don't necessarily have to do handicapped accessibility things when you look at the code with reference to handicapped accessibility it says it's essential that you do it and when you look at um the Florida Statutes about churches churches are exempt from handicapped accessibility two require two do not because everybody's getting old older we felt like that it was a good idea to provide it and we put it on the rear and kind of behind the porch not necessarily to hide it but certainly we didn't want to take away from the architecture thank you does that answer your question Mr Hollister yeah other questions I oh I I was just going to say speaking purely just from myself I am so excited i' I've lived in my house around the corner for going on 20 years and have just hoped that one day something wonderful would happen so we do too Elizabeth and you know uh part of this Grant application we solicited and obtained over a dozen letters from Community leaders state and local leaders um Bobby Payne Robbie Carrera um several people had given us letters of support which I think go a long way with the DHR in considering these Grant applications excellent absolutely Mr Sheffield sir on uh if we could go to uh I guess looking at the drawings and I I've in the packet I was able to read it uh on my uh laptop but not not here a1.2 A 1 point2 okay yeah um because I I I noticed because most of the language in here uh really speaks to like materials um actually uh taking things off and um uh and reusing them uh and uh whoops no if you if you go I'm sorry is that I think you got the right one yeah but where the A1 has the windows a12 is that's it okay there you go um but box two on this and I don't I know you can't see it but I just remember from reviewing this says that the the windows with the square two associated with it were going to be replicas and the the ones were actually going to be so what do you mean in terms of the materials uh as far as them being replicas some of the windows that are in the building like the very front picture let's see uh some of the windows that are in the building are not period Windows they were replacement windows when you look at the 1920 photo remember I pointed out that Cas door um I'm going to take that window out that doesn't belong and put in a casement door okay so that was our intent if and there's a like eight windows that are period and we're going to do everything we can to save them there's a couple of ramifications here that theyve been painted with Le base paint and the putty on the window is uh a M it contains asbest so our our uh practice here is to take the windows literally out of the building take them to a shop remove these environmental hazards and then Prime them and paint them and put them back in right so eight of those windows will be restored and repaired there's another like four or five windows that are just they're not period they're not acceptable and I found two manufacturers gelwin and kobby make a wood window yeah that is what I'm calling a replica a window okay very similar in design okay and um so I think once it's all painted and put back in place most people will say those were second of course that that's what I was really trying to get clarified whether that replica was going to be the wood window because I know uh they they are available uh from that standpoint so that's the intent and that that is our intent yes okay excellent um at at this point shall we go ahead and oh I was going to open up to public comment but yes Miss Rosa question moving forward um if you need someone to go to t you and then declare communication no but actually it would be after this hearing is over and I'm I'm certain that I agree with you thank you thank you very much all right shall we go ahead and open up to uh public comment let's do that anybody would like to come and speak on this if not let's go ahead and close public comment you know if if if I don't open it then I I get a little board up in the air that says yes yes yes pink lettering yeah absolutely uh ladies Gentlemen of the board do we do we have more questions are we um needing to re address Mr chap or are we are we potentially moving forward on a on a motion I'd like to make a motion to approve it um like Elizabeth I'm 27 years and lived in the north side for about 15 years and did some homes over there so I'm really really pleased to see it to see such a good job that you're going to do and the time that you're going to take and I like the idea of the grant that you're seeking and doing all that and like a leader for maybe people in the future other places so thank you yes ma'am we have a motion to approve this um COA do we have a second I second the motion thank you Miss Rosa all right we have a motion in a second do we have further discussion amongst the board if not all in favor please say I I and opposed excellent thank you so much and we'll we'll all be keeping an eye and cheering you on thank you thank you very much um ladies gentlemen does anyone need to take a quick break or are we okay to keep going okay all right let's go ahead and move on to our final um item C which is HPB case 23-38 which is a COA for a series of exterior improvements and a closure of rear porch at 120 South 6th Street all right uh good afternoon again um I'm hoping the third times the charm on this this is uh this is the last time I'll be presenting the board to to any of the boards here and I'd love to get this uh squared away this evening again as you said this is HPB 2338 um again this is a quick update we presented a couple times before I know I did include the staff report the original staff report in there I'm not going to kind of dwell on those details again uh this is an after theact application for for a certificate of appropriateness for work done to and historic structure um we all know I think where 120 South 6 Street is I know Mr carpon I think is on the line on Zoom to address the board with with any questions you may have uh the application was reviewed by the historic preservation board at the April 4th and May 2nd 2024 meetings at the beest of the board uh this item was continued both times to gather more information and to come up with I think a few more answers and a few more items and I hope we've answered those uh today there's a number of things in the agenda um that I'll point to um just really quickly I reached out to the applicant on May 16th he replied with I guess the most important details here that we have are the list of construction materials that I have written down here and and Miss CR I apologize if the page numbers are off but I do have the construction materials from Pages 89 to 98 as well as a series of photos in the staff report provided by the applicant and of course our wonderful public information officer as well Peter went out there from Pages 99 to 118 and took several photos with the Drone and so I'm going to leave it at that and I I'd be happy to answer questions again or uh hand it off to Mr carpon as well so what what was requested as far as additional information at the May HPB meeting um that are are you satisfied um with the results with the materials with the Drone footage etc etc I am hesitantly satisfied with all of the materials that are that have been provided I think we have plenty of photos here um it just depends on what you're what you're asking and I'll I'll do my best to do my best to answer but the applicant has been forthcoming and has been uh compliant and helpful in in getting everything in for this meeting it it seemed to me and and please correct me if I'm wrong because unfortunately I could not be at the last meeting and thank you Mr Sheffield for stepping in um but it seemed to me that the major sticking point that was encountered at that meeting with the board was the fact that the uh new columns were indeed Square as opposed to rounded um to match the rounded columns on the original part of the structure uh my question to you is one of am I understanding correctly that the Secretary of the Interior um standards her guide the guidelines are if it's it's old leave it the way it is as much as you possibly can so those rounded columns should never go anywhere but if it is indeed brand new don't try to replicate what is old instead make it easy to differentiate between the old and indeed the new I that is good guidance I I'm not sure if that's what u i I can't I can't answer that for sure and I I would probably just defer to the City attorney on the secretary's standards because there's a lot there miss I I actually do not specifically recall that in the department of interior's Standards however I am familiar with um maybe I should have Miss farmer comp um let me just read what she has so conveniently highlighted new additions exterior alterations are related new construction shall not destroy historic materials that characterize the property the new work shall be differentiated and I think this is the point that you're going to from the old and shall be compatible with massing size scale and Architectural features to protect the historic Integrity of the property and its environment uh going on new additions and adjacent or related new construction shall be undertaken in such a manner that if removed in the future the essential form and integrity of the historic property and its environment would be unimpaired um my my understanding is that it is perfectly acceptable and indeed welcome to have architectural styles that U distinguish the different historical eras so you don't have to be matchy matchy the difference um in the columns for example would denote a different time period that you could easily assess visually thank you is matchy matchy the Latin term yes that that is the tech excellent okay Disney I'm writing Disney ask yes touche I just wanted to kind of throw that out there and moving along Miss Rosa scale and size look at the photograph it's not Ming it's not appropriate scale and it's not appropriate yo so please do not direct that to me you can direct that to your fellow board members I I read the department of interior standards and I direct it to the board I think we should look at the photographs of what was built and the important thing that uh we have been reminded of is the co massing scale and size uh I think the photograph tells you this is not appropriate massing scale and size it is not good in any point of massing scale inside I think that's the point we need to make thank you chair the only other thing that I would add since you weren't at the last meeting is yes the columns were up for discussion but also there were um significant questions on the addition and that is why we had our p go out to take these additional photographs you can see that he spent um a considerable amount of time trying to capture the dimensions um and the the details of that addition in the back of the property I was here when the addition was discussed initially and um it's kind of hidden by the side porch which I think is the feature which is most distinct and now looking at the addition to the house an appropriate time to speak with the applicant um yeah I I think if he's on the line be great to uh get his take on it thank you Mr Carpenter are you here with us sir yes ma'am okay um if if you would like to just generally start with any additional details that you would like to let us know based on the new information that we have in front of us and then um I am guessing we have some questions for you sir um I don't have anything to add I can start with the questions all right um Miss Rosa would you like to start us out ma'am you okay do we have other questions for Mr carpent yes Mr shaffield hi Mr carpin thank you um thank you for the additional photos uh because yeah we we prior to this we could not see or have an understanding of um what the rear Edition uh how uh how that looked and what was made up uh there I'm I'm making sure I'm trying to understand or look at the windows um and maybe it's not going to be as critical of of a point because they're in the exact rear you can't see them from the street or but the the the windows I'm looking at on page it's 114 of 120 that shows the the uh the rear back because I when we had talked before we were uh we were talking about where the were the windows that were there um uh not to use the ma the the the Latin term matchy matchy but did that actually were they cons consistent with the other windows in the in the house and by this picture of the ones in the rear it doesn't look as though they are what type of Windows are are are those because it it does they look totally different than any uh of the windows on on on the house are these wood or are these it's it's composite wood it's composite and wood trimmed okay and okay um that that was just my my point of clarification did you were you able to find out whether because another point that was raised was whether you needed uh stairs uh and then therefore would there be railings added to this application on the side port did did you find out whether the height of that porch required you to have a step and therefore would present to us the railing you were planning to put up in association with that it it doesn't require it's not greater than 12 in um it's a little less um the front porch is actually taller than the side uh porch okay but the all righty but the front porsch does have the railing and yeah they don't actually well that's going to be a code issue ultimately and if if they require require you to put stairs there then we're going to have to revisit the addition of the railing that's what I was trying to avoid go ahead I'm sorry that was my question those were my question so he will need to secure a permit from the puam county building department and if this U Side Porch um I forget the exact amount I do think it's 12 but um if it is greater than that um is not going to receive the permit without a railing but he cannot apply for the permit until we move him forward with the COA yeah this has been a bit of a tortured um process with this particular property because um all of the changes that have been made to the structure have not received a permit um from putam County and and receiving a COA the reason is is because the building department in putam County when they recognize the property is within a historic district they kick it over to our planning department to ensure that COA is obtained before they do their final uh permitting so that is where we have been held up um so no they do not have permits for any of the construction let me see I'm sure that in the past at some point this must have happened before I mean this this can't be the the first time anyone has ever attempted to get a permit without of COA been denied not issued a permit yet carried forward um but it it really does put everyone in a horribly precarious position because we would certainly not condone moving forward without a COA but here it is and it's been done and hypothetically just hypothetically what if our board was to say we don't like the rear windows we don't like the massing the size we don't like these things and we're not excited to approve them what would happen then hypothetically because that seems to be an awfully drastic thing so hypothetically um you are permitted to deny the COA um so that on the basis of whatever criteria that you find I would suggest that you have um that criteria set forth so the applicant understands what is expected um moving forward because they are going to hopefully proceed with completing this project but certainly you can deny the COA and they would need to um alter the structure in a manner that is in compliance with your criteria or alternately they could just take it on to the city commission that's right an appeal to your decision to deny it and take it to the city commission and if memory serves us there's a very real possibility it would just bounce right back to us yeah um you know Mr day sir no no no it's not the saving of the day the the the third thing and I forgot to mention was you know the the when we spoke before you know you you would definitely I least to my my recollection confirm that the siding you were continuing that same thing all around the house and so the side there but when I look at the very back unless the picture is failing me in figure four that just looks flat there's no it is not consistent with the rest of the house so those were my couple things the the whether we're going to need a railing the windows were inconsistent and then the back wasn't so I I forgot about about the other one oh I see what you mean um so it's was that because before we we we talked about it I I thought you were carrying that around the whole house as opposed to leaving it off of this side Mr carbon did we did we lose you sir yeah um it's what I said yes it's the same exciting but the side of the back of the house is not you can't see it it's it's 13 or 3/4 I forgot what it is uh Birchwood so um it's still wood product that's the that's the same sighting as what's like if you look at P figure three if you look at figure three where I mean Cedar sighting one board is $25 for cedar boards I mean if you want and that's a 8 foot so if you want to put Cedar throughout the entire house I mean it would cost probably mean $30,000 I'm not asking for that I I thought I I'm sorry if I'm not being clear sir I I'm just there's it just looks like there's different material that's used if you look at figure three for instance just looking at that corner it looks like there's different material on the on the right side versus uh when you go to the around to the back there's totally different material there or might not seeing it one side is horizontal and fig looks like it's vertical yeah I I'm and maybe it's hard for to see in this picture but it definitely looks different it's not the same which is what I thought we had confirmed before that was my only third if I'm understanding you Mr Sheffield the back windows on that back building it looks like there is no siding at all it just looks like flat wood that is yes that's what it yeah that it's the same is itting like the rest of the house if you see if you look at the sfet it basically is the same material as the sfet and that's that's what it is not material is it the same is it siding like like it's not tongue and groove but it's siding not the same material but the same look of siding it looks like it's a flat piece of wood yeah it's yeah yeah it that's what it is it's one flat piece of wood yes well should match it should match the profile on the side of the house you can't because suddenly you're going from something which is a horizontal profile to something that's entirely flat if you were you see the if you look at the P if you were to like s it it would look really bad because you would get really small like cuts um on the front if you go back to the front the the if you go up to the previous picture in the front yeah if you look at that if you where it it starts because of the pitch you would get really small cuts and it wouldn't look good that's why I decided to use the the flat wood if that's what you're referring to and the same sof the whole house has the same sof that's not where I'm speaking to um well I'm saying that and the back of the house is the same that and the back of the house decided to use yeah it looks like it's upstairs and downstairs so the whole back of the house is Flatwood all right so ladies and gentlemen what we have at the moment it it sounds to me like we we have an objection to the windows on the back of the property being in in our estimation not matchy matchy and also the fact that we were led to believe that the new sighting would be sighting as opposed to just Flatwood um do we have other issues at this stage M yes I have a question about the side porch um I'm looking at it structurally and I'm wondering did you have an architect or an engineer tell you that that's what you needed to hold the roof it's not holding the Second Story there's nothing above it except the porch roof and if you look at this these are major pieces of structure holding up something which doesn't look to me although I'm not an engineer like they need to be that big or that many so who designed this yeah I have an engineer so the if you're talking about the rafters it's standard 2x6 material that's that's that's no not the rafters the actual columns The Columns yes so it's 4x4 wrapped in 1 by 12s so they're 4x4 materials wrapped You Don't See the post that goes down but they're wrapped it goes why did you why did you choose to do it that way it's very heavy I mean if you look at the front of your house which is gorgeous the way it was done is light what do you mean by heavy I'm I'm just talking about a visual effect if you look at these even if they were painted white right now they would still look very cumbersome compared to the rest of the historic structure and I'm not talking about replicating it I'm just talking about using another vernacular other than the round traditional column these are very large for spanning and you're now telling me that they're bigger than they need to be to actually support the roof is that what you're telling me I don't I disagree with you I I think it looks I think it looks good I mean it's a matter of opinion but I disagree with you I mean it's not if you probably need to go look at the property I mean pictures doesn't always like reflect it accurate to me it fits the size um the design fit the size of the the roof and the pitch I mean there's many properties that they go with a either a 10 x10 column or 12 x 12 column for for smaller size porches okay of course it is an opinion and you're in entitled to yours and I'm entitled to mine if you are indeed an engineer uh why is it that you never applied for building permission your house I said I had an engineer design that I didn't say I was an engineer okay and he did not tell you that you were required by law miss m res I think at this point we we have literally driven it home to this applicant that he should have gotten the COA before he attempted to get the permit and not getting either is just not a happy moment um however at this point I feel as though we we basically have some options um one option would be to approve as presented and let this applicant move forward to the hurdle of getting the permitting sorted out which which would catch items such as stairs necessary railings necessary etc etc um that's option one option two we could deny it and then he could appeal it to the city commission and we could see what happened from there option number three is to tell him to please come back and try again in July um those are our options as I see it am I incorrect it it truly is what what what would the applicant do if he comes back change change the their plans or I I don't know but I'm I'm saying that that in in order for us to move forward we we do have three options approve it deny it or table it to the next meeting unless I'm not understanding correctly you you could approve with conditions um so for example I'm just pulling this out of my hat but um the windows uh if you do not think that they need your standards you could require that they be replaced with um historical looking Windows okay and and I'm sorry I should have mentioned approve with let let's pick the parts of of the project that we do have problems with and and let's try to come to some kind of a decision can I ask a question please certain thank you to Jan if we approve for the certificate of appropriateness we're just if I understand understand it I don't understand it so I want to make sure I do um we're just approving the fact of that we're saying okay we're going to give him a certificate of appropriateness and but we're not approving the fact that they you know the windows are not correct and the that he didn't pull permits or any of that we're just saying okay we're going to give you a certificate of appropriateness and now building and zoning and all of that will handle those issues that we have problems with no have condition so for example let's go with the windows for example these windows quite possibly meet code Florida building code which is different than the standards that you have uh before you which are the Secretary of interior um standards so if the the windows meet for's building code they will get their permit they're just that's it does that make yes absolutely now I understand okay I have Madam shair will you finish yes I thank you thank you all right um I'm I'm just struggling from the standpoint of because I I just believe a a because if I look at the picture that's that's up right now um I'm still thinking you're because it to me it was a simple ask to say make sure you double check uh as far as the height of the porch and whether um stairs or railing would be required and you come back next month and that would have shown willingness to really uh work with us and comply um and uh so I'm struggling a bit because when I look at this board the board that's going across uh there that's probably at least eight inches if not 10 right up underneath the portrait then you've got the the slight uh supporting there that I know is at another six to8 um you know if you add those up that's going to exceed the the 12 so I'm what I'm struggling with here is is the the willingness to to work with us because believe me I we're trying to work with you on on this so um a condition of of mind would we would need to appoint out in our uh certificate of appropriateness the um the possible need for a a railing and that that be uh uh they he'd have to come back for approval of uh of that so this would put that in circle but I'm I was disappointed when I when I got the pictures of the back because I I I I I really thought that we you had confirmed that the paneling was going all the way around I could honestly this I'm only one vote here I could honestly say okay the windows don't exactly match the rest of but it's at the very rear of the home and you cannot see it but the there just seems to be a continued pattern here of I don't see the the steps to to to help comply with what we're requesting and I'm I'm struggling with with that thank you other comments Miss Rosa yes um we're usually very strict when people come to us I and I don't vote at all these meetings but I come to most of them and this is one of the oldest homs in patka and quite frankly if we allow this to just be as it is I think we're we're setting a precedent for other things to come to us which are not as they should should be and then we've opened a can of worms I believe do we agree that that the the opportunity would be to put conditions on the approval for the COA and those conditions would be sighting to match would be windows are those are there other issues I I I would agree that we should put this forward because we're really at that point now we're going to the commission and appealing coming back is just there's just to me no point in it so I think that we should do it with conditions and each condition needs to be talked about and shortly talked about it and say exactly so we don't miss anything and then I would be willing to go forward on that anybody else Mr Jefferson I I think that the back could be a Bor and Baton and that would be easier for the homeowner than putting new sighing or putting sighting over that if you think of a the kitchen entrance of a home that might have been you know a little different in the back the windows I totally do not care for at all so maybe we can help him here and he helps us in in another section Mr Hollister um minute issue but uh the cans the lights on the on the place that's not historic at all no from the rear it doesn't look like a historic home at all that's what was is troubling me but uh the can lights yeah think we need to make a list look on page 120 Mr Jefferson yeah I believe Miss vote is making a list I'm writing down things that I okay have been said and I think that's fantastic um because I I feel like that might help us to to move forward um my recollection the windows the sighting um as Mr Hollister just pointed out um lights the can lights we didn't we hadn't come up with a conclusion on the columns in reference to she was saying size and mass and so on so we have to decide if that's something um I'd like to point out if you look at page 109 of 120 which is the side view of the porch I don't understand the relationship of why you have two columns two columns a big space then three then two then you turn the corner and there two more in the front I mean it's this elevation is not pretty and kind of nonsensical I mean I could just sell the house because all you guys are doing right now is just beating on everything to be quite honest I'm just demotivated I could spend my money somewhere else I mean it it doesn't matter at this point to me I'll just sell the house I won't do anything to it somebody else could deal with this [Music] problem okay hey we wow Miss West got anything for us look you know after after the fact permitting is never fun right um yeah we we talked about this like five times I told you I bought the house not knowing it was a historic process and I tell you I mean this has been the worst County to work with I mean I've built houses before I did a lot of different things but this this is unbelievable like this process it's not a good one not a good experience don't think I will buy another property in Florida I don't live in Florida so I don't think I would buy anything around putting them County for certain this has been a nightmare okay yeah if I look if all the things you guys pointed out I could I can point out 10 homes that has the same exact thing in the same areas I mean I could point out people have vinyl windows I could point out people have square columns homes are collapsing I mean it's just nonsense if you're finished for the moment sir um Miss West I believe you so in furtherance of what uh Miss vot is trying to accomplish here in terms of going forward with issuing a COA perhaps you'd like to break it down in terms of subject matter um with your proposed conditions as As you move forward to issue this so for example you know your siding issue your windows um and whatever conditions you attach so you can move forward on the issuance Miss vote Yes I have a a list here and and people can on the board can decide um I want to work with you I think some of the work that you've done is is nice I'm I'm happy that you're investing here and you and you want to do that I'm in agreement with you that there are a lot of houses that don't look very good and have a lot of problems and what we're attempting to do is to try to make things better and um make the neighborhood better and stuff which was is good for your property and investment and so on and so forth so I apologize if it seems like we're nitpicking we're just trying to get it right and work with you so if you'd be a little patient a little bit more we're trying to get there I know that I am all right Miss vot I'm going to borrow your list um number one was the can lights number two was the rear windows number three was um you have sighting in back but actually Mr Sheffield pointed out we we have citing um concerns all around and then uh fourth was the columns as relates to the amount of columns and anything else I was just listenting that people were saying so are we seeing anything are we seeing any way that we can move forward with some recommendations of how to go about this Mr Jefferson suggested that bordon baton on the back I'm not suggesting that I'm just putting it out here for discussion so we get started all right in in the interest of moving forward um and creating a compromise in areas where we where we feel that we can does anyone else have an objection to the board and Baton style of siding on the rear of the house okay no one no one has an objection or no one's yeah okay well I I would say that perhaps that is a place to start um and perhaps since Mr Jefferson you put it out there perhaps you would like to make a motion as to I'd like to make a motion that we approve that section of the house on the condition that a boron baton design be incorporated in any area the back of the house that is not the clapboard okay do we have a second second thank you Mr Sheffield we have a motion and a second um and let's go ahead and repeat that motion Sunny thank you motion by Mr Jefferson to approve that section of the house on the condition that a board and Boton design be incorporated in any area on the back of the house that is not clapboard thank you any further discussion if not let's go ahead and all in favor say I I I and opposed okay we've gotten through that motion pass unanimous Mo sorry I guess that was um let's move to um let's move to can lights um is there some kind of a lens that could be not really put over a can light I mean it would be a question of taking lights out and coming up with some other type of light that would be more aesthetically pretty pleasing better suited to the period of the home you're really not going to see a lot of lights underneath those areas on historic homes um so I don't know where where are we going with that that's fixed CU he's I'm okay with the lights can lights I I'd leave the lights it's it's not what we would approve but I don't know how he he he go gets around that one yeah all right if if we are okay with something do we necessarily need to make a motion or do we just keep going miss West okay let let's move on to um let's move on to the rear windows how are we feeling about those I I would say just personally um I have more of an issue with the rear windows than I do with the columns I don't know if that helps anybody just just knowing kind of how I feel about it um but Mr Sheffield um I I I too um was more concerned about the windows than than the columns um however I'm trying to give you know some leeway in that they will not be seen I'm trying to think in my mind it looks like they won't be seen except by the person in the back of him they would not be seen driving by the home from the front of the home or the other side if these same Windows had been put on the side where the new portch it I would I there would be no way I'd be uh but even with if they're in they're back there no one else is going to see them and we're really trying to work with it I I wouldn't force the issue on the on the Windows would be my um deal all right other board members what are what are thoughts on the rear windows please does that open up in the future for anybody doing the same on the windows that would be my that I and I I hear you uh my only concern and I I hear you that's that's that's that's a valid that's a valid concern I mean yes when we set a precedent we set a precedent we could argue all day that this was a a huge case of of extenuating circumstances that we don't normally have before us and and then the homeowner threatened to leave town and never come back um but it does it does indeed establish a precedent um we we can't tell the next person that that we don't care for their Windows um and as you all know um and I don't mean that to as you all know um as as I believe most people know um I'm not I'm not a big advocate of oh well it's the back of the house um you know that's just never been something we we've talked about items in the past well well you can't see it um to me it's it's still the structure and the structure um is the most important thing Mr Chef no point well taken so where does that leave us on the Windows um do can we do a little bit of a straw poll is that possible who's who's okay with the not really okay that that doesn't really help us I would say that at this point someone um would need to make a motion about the windows and see if we can get a second and see we we can move forward Mr Mr Jefferson I just did a little drawing on uh figure four since there are eight skinny Windows if they were replaced by four windows that looked a little more period that would be a an easier pill to swallow it from a construction standpoint page 100 I gotcha still not not actually well no I'm saying replace them but you could replace them with four Windows each one of those U they're not Millions but support are are necessary there don't need to be eight Windows there you could put four you know without ripping out the whole thing just take out four supports and put in new windows all right well you looks like you you might be getting some head nod so would you like to go ahead and make that into a motion Mr Jefferson I I make a motion that we approve the back of the house if the eight windows are adjusted so that there are four windows that are more in keeping with the period home okay we have a motion do we have a second I second the motion thank you um Miss CR would you mind giving us read motion motion by Mr Jefferson to approve the back of the house if the windows are adjusted so that there are four Windows more in keeping with the period of the home any discussion all right um Madame city clerk I'm going to ask for a roll call vote on this thank you Mr Hollister yes thank you Miss vote sorry it's taking me a moment um I'm patient yes thank you Mr sheffel yes Miss Rosa yes did I say Mr Jefferson sorry I supposed to call you last but I think I skipped him because he made the motion Mr Jefferson yes thank you sorry um and chair van rburg no the motion passed with chair van rbur descending thank you let's move now to the um to the issue uh or our thoughts or hopefully moving forward in some sort of way on the columns Mr Jefferson I think that the three call colums on the Oak Street side break the symmetry of that porch and my question is can that be adjusted so the the the columns on the that side of the house are the same not knowing what the supports are does each column have a 4x4 that is boxed in or was that just a third one put for some other reason so that's a a question I guess to the homeowner Mr Carpenter are you still with us at this point um I'm GNA get off the call you guys can make a decision I'm going to sell the house I'm not doing anything else to it so if you guys deny it knock yourselves out I'll put it to list tomorrow next week whatever I'm just this is not a process I want to deal with somebody else could take on this this this process I'm I'm not investing not a penny more in this property so if I could leave excuse myself you guys can make a decision on your own of course you can sir okay thank you I'm going to advise that you deny the ca Madam Madam chair there is a motion on the floor he'll need to retract his motion bring us back to point please the motion that's um wait a minute I thought we had just started dealing with the columns you're right I thought I had Mr Jefferson motioned and then I went dot dot dot sorry okay um thank you uh we do not have a motion on the table however um it has come to our advisement from our City Attorney Jane West that how how how can I ask sure because if if if what would can and and I'm so sorry but can we adjourn for one minute just let me run to the bathroom Recess Recess okay let sorry let's just re e e e e e e e all right thank you very much for allowing that short recess um I think we all needed to to just get stuff done there um okay coming back to the meeting um Miss West had a suggestion um so let let's move back to that and uh here we sure and and let just explain my reasoning a little bit um I picked up on the fact that the board was hesitant to deny the COA despite the fact that I feel like many of you were leaning towards that direction and the reason you are hesitant to do a denial is because in your past recent experience that goes up to the city commission and it just gets remanded back and it's very circular and I understand that concern given the applicants uh with uh withdrawal from even participating um in in this discussion um it is my opinion if he moves forward with his threat to sell the property that um I think you're in a comfortable position moving forward on any potential appeal um so if it is your inclination initially to deny the COA then I suggest you move forward with that inclination um um it does not look like you have the cooperation of the applicant to even answer basic questions um for example the third column on the board let let me ask you this um would that nullify the decisions that we have made that I felt like we we made with a lot of us being very uncomfortable making them would it nullify those just an outright denial of the entire COA well that has been put out there for our consideration so at this point um if someone would like to go that direction yes Miss vote I'd make a motion to deny the COA we have a motion to deny and we have a second thank you Mr Hollister um discussion amongst the board if not let's go ahead and do a roll call again if we could Madam city clerk Mr Hollister no okay so that would be yes that would be us yes go it Miss vote Yes Mr Jeffrey yes Mr Sheffield yes Miss Rosa yes chair van rensburg yes motion passed unanimously thank you um seeing ladies and gentlemen as it is now 10 6 um we do have there it [Laughter] is it's like a g we we do have a couple other things on the agenda um and I have one I have a feeling one of them is ordinance number 1409 which I don't believe any of us has have had a moment to take a look at so I would suggest that we take this information home with us study it and revisit this um at the next meeting so if you were in agreement with me let's make a motion to um yeah to are we just looking for feedback I'm not and we this was it looks like a disc pardon me a discussion that Mr uh Jefferson um initiated requesting um options to protect the facades of buildings in the business district that that's looks like a response to me but but I would say since none of us have had time to really look at this and also given the fact that it is actually now nearly 6:15 um and we're keeping folks who have been here since very early this morning here very um that that we talk about this next month I'll make motion to do that put it to next month I'll second the motion thank you we have a motion and we have a second to table discussion of this item to the July meeting all in favor please say I I I and opposed the second thing that we had to discuss um was another um another uho well basically to discusses the brochure that we have been working on um the last time we talked about this yeah it's it's upside down I'm sure they won't print it like that um the last time we spoke about this we gave quite a list um to City staff matter of fact I believe we all kind of separately went to the city staff with our thoughts about the vure um again hoping that that the July meeting is is shorter um I would like some time personally to be able to digest this as opposed to just say it looks good so once again yes ma'am motion for us to go over July meeting thank you we have a motion and a second any discussion all in favor please say I I I think that wraps us up ladies and gentlemen and I believe Mr Hollister um would like to make a motion to adjourn put that come on Mr Hollister Madame chair Madame chair before you adjourn the meeting I would like to the opportunity to um Cas his last meeting with the board today didn't you know we have a party yeah we just have to adjourn the meeting and then we I want to put on the record unit teasing that you know we we want to thank Casey for all his contributions you know and I hope he had a experience you know taking back to [Applause] school thank you we we will seriously miss you right he's he's leaving he's going to go and and get all of his many various degrees and then he's going to uh take over the world right excellent ladies gentlemen we have a motion to adjourn all in favor please say I we are adjourned