e e e you hear me or see me you're good Patrick oh good thank you we just haven't started yet hi everybody are we muted yes sir the meeting hasn't started yet good afternoon Patrick did you do a sound check yet I did I think you guys can hear me I e e e e e e everyone we just wanted to give you a heads up we're waiting to have Quorum we were told that our third member is a little bit late so just kind of bear with us no problem trustees it's an excellent opportunity to look at the memo that um that Patrick put together because I know there's a lot going on in that memo so feel free to look it over that way we can answer any questions just don't talk about it with each other I'm unaware of a sir Adam are you talking about the one I presented at the last meeting yeah so right so I don't know if it made it into the package trustees I apologize but the memo that was in the last packet which Patrick is available today to go into as much detail as we want just to make sure everybody understands the moving pieces and and while we're waiting Jill is it possible to to make a copy an extra copy of that memo uh I am I do not have that memo it's not on the agenda it's it was discussed at the meeting uh the only thing that's on this agenda besides the third party is a discussion of the options and costs from the email that was received after that last meeting that I sent that I sent that questions from uh our chairperson to uh Patrick about options that he wanted to consider the only reason it's on this agenda is for them to vote because it may um Patrick will tell us if it costs money to do to um have him do those uh plan out those options that Chad the chairperson wants considered it's only here to price it out and to vote on whether they want to pay for that okay all right I'm I'm putting everybody back on mute good afternoon everybody it is now 4:05 we'd like to call the meeting uh the special call pension board meeting uh to order at 4:05 Miss chill if you'll take roll call please here here uh so now would be the time to read this correct M Jill uh to the members uh you here by noticed a special meeting of the firefighters retirement pension board is hereby called for Tuesday March 19th 202 report 4 p.m. the purpose at 4:05 p.m. uh the purpose of this meeting is to authorize the hiring of the Resource Centers as the pensions third party administrator we will move to the approval of the prior meeting minutes got a chance to review the minutes motion to approve minutes present motion by Mr L I second second by Mr Sant all in favor I motion Carriage unanimous on to the third party administrator the resources Center Mr chair if everybody can hear me I'd be happy to tee up this item than thank you sir if you will sure so the reason why and this is the main reason for today's board meeting and trustees will remember and I'm I'm thinking that most of you if not all of you were at the the regular board meeting uh so your meeting was in the morning and then in the afternoon we met with the pinion Resource Center and three boards met together and and listened to the presentation by Scott Bower who is the founder of the pension resource center and we were a little disappointed not with him but we were hoping to get more responses to the RFP one response was late uh so it was rejected uh another RFP I think uh was also rejected because it was late if I'm remembering correctly so what it boils down to is you had one response so the the trustees kicked the tires and if memory serves all three boards uh meeting together were of the view that it made sense to move forward but it was it was just a joint meeting and it wasn't at that meeting where you would have been able to to vote to retain the pension Resource Center so following that meeting the other two boards met and each of them the police and the general employees voted to retain F to retain the pension Resource Center so two of the boards voted yes and they're moving forward with their contract so now it falls to you because you had your meeting that morning whether or not you want to follow that recommendation so I'm happy to answer any questions Bower you know drove up in order maybe fleu in I'm not sure but he made made himself available he didn't want to do it through a screen he wanted to be there in person to answer any questions and I'll also point out that in a perfect world we would have had Foster and Foster submit an RFP but for various reasons they've been growing quickly and the staff turnover and I give Foster and Foster credit because in addition to being an actuary which is the the vast bulk of what they do is they serve as an actuary uh which is work enough but they also provide administrative services so it would have been possible for them to make a proposal to to be both our actuary and our administrator but their answer was that uh just they had too much work going on and they didn't want to take on new clients unless they thought they had the man power and woman power for it if that makes sense so Foster and Foster made the purposeful decision not to submit an RFP and um you know I give them credit for that because I didn't want to take on new work unless they were adequately staffed so it boils down to the question whether or not you want to use the pension Resource Center which was the only viable option who timely submitted so I'm happy to answer any questions uh you met with them last time and hopefully they answered all your questions but again this is the opportunity and remember that we're we're losing Jill and they've got good you know when I say good they've got big shoes to fill because Jill's been our administrator for a while uh so this way by bringing them on board now that can start that transition process of of working with Jill acquiring records getting up to speed because we want to make the transition as seamless as possible and also notify the members that things are going to be a little bit different hopefully they won't lose any service meaning that they'll still get the excellent quality service but things will be a little bit different when you don't have a full-time person at City Hall who is the administrator instead you'll have a a third party working remotely who will be at City Hall from time to time but basically working out of their regular office so that's my effort to tee up the item and it does require a vote if you want to move forward retaining Foster and Foster as your third party administrator means the resource center the resource center yes sorry yes what did I say did I give another name what did I say Foster and Foster sorry yeah so Foster and Foster is our actuary Foster and Foster did not submit but we're talking about to be clear thank you we're talking about uh the pension Resource Center as the administrator any questions Gentlemen Just One the fee schedule was that a monthly amount the fee schedule is by month and there will be the extra $600 a month added on to that to do the monthly the monthly um uh financial statements bank statements yes financial statements because um that's what's been done in the past that's what I do now as monthly financial statements because they go into what is presented to the commission thank you so in that they'll work together the resource center will work together with Cap City for the two check signing and all of those things that have to happen for payouts and yes and what the resource center will do is give the finance people here the information on a monthly basis to for us to book the transactions into a into our accounting system and Jill if can put you on the spot which I'm apologizing if I'm doing that but I'm wondering did Bower send you any emails to begin the transition process for the other two boards as he start warming up he he is here and uh yes he is uh sent a along with the proposal was a list of items a 75 Day schedule of how to transition from transition them in but he is here and he can speak don't forget to turn on your mic so truste I apologize it's very hard to see and I don't think he's on the screen but rather than me saying anything else uh you might as well listen to Mr Bower who um is an expert with regard to plan Administration just briefly I wanted to say that I'm delighted to be here today I don't take that for granted um two things one is that we haven't begun transition yet we would need to go through the process to finalize agreement ments um with Adam which we would probably do following this meeting and then the second on just a comment from Jill on the maintenance of interm financial statements we would maintain a detailed general ledger for the plans and pass the full detailed general ledger over to the city rather than transactions um so our intent was not to just track transactions as they relate to the retirement plan but to maintain a full detailed general ledger for the plan which should be less work for the finance director I had one more question Mr lenson I just a just because I I am completely clueless as it comes to this is this a standard contract that he's presented us with is there anything that we need to be weird of or something we need to be paying attention to or just pretty standard that is an excellent question so let me spend a minute on it so um what what we're what we're not dealing with is an outside vendor who we've never dealt done business with before so U trustees if you've gone to conferences you may have had the opportunity to to see the the various administrators in Florida and I will tell you that as long as I get the name right the pension Resource Center is the largest planned administrator so in other words this is not a contract that they that they just made special for you this is a a standard contract that's been used know what will vary from City to city is the dollar amount and things of that nature but the underlying legal language the the the boilerplate if you will the standard contract language has been approved and voted on and looked at by attorneys all across the state because it is the standard and and Scott if you want to fill in any details but it's it's the customary contract which is a good thing and it makes the point how we're not Reinventing anything we're not uh you know we're not having to build a better mouse trap because we're using what's worked and I want to say successfully with other plans across the state and and Scott do you want to fill in the details on how that's the standard contract that's been used elsewhere I would simply say that I would do my best to keep the changes that Adam needs to make or send back to me minimal thank you and we do not have yet a contract because this board has not authorized U the hiring so um a contract will be coming there there was a template for it which I would review again before sending to Adam in the full proposal um so you actually do have a copy in the original proposal of the agreement or the proposed agreement just a little curious about the fee schedule is this just is it based on an hourly rate or it's a Rainer rate um I can tell you that we have a really clear working knowledge of the time and the time required to operate one of the plans um I will tell you it most directly relates to the number and the total number of plan members if you want us or you want to know how I arrived at that number um it was a little less than the police plan little bit more or less than the general employees but again it was proportionate to the number plan members and with the administration of every any plan there's just a certain amount of base time that's required in terms of the interaction with the board and so I do review all of the plan provisions and other special things that might relate to the plan I look at things like turnover from the valuation report so I'm pretty thorough on how I look at it but if you just wanted to Peg it to something you'd count your number of members and you'd come close any further questions I don't have any questions I love being heart right you yep I can't apologize for that but I can tell you again that I don't take it for granted certainly I can understand all right motion to approve if we'll y we'll entertain a motion all right motion to approve author third party administrator Resource Centers I second that motion motion by Mr L and second by Mr suban all in favor I any opposed motion carries unanimous thank you sir if it's still appropriate to make a comment i' just say thank you and that I truly do look forward to working with you appreciate you being here thank you thank you thanks for making a trip if you need to leave we're just going to go on to the next I'm okay for another 10 15 minutes and I'd like to stay if I the board doesn't mind continuity more than welcome uh so the discussion for for options for foster and Foster Mr Patrick good afternoon sir thank you for being here no problem so the um you know like Adam talked about the memo that I did and I explained you know different options going forward you know we could fix the multiplier for the retirees we could fix the multiplier for everybody we could do a share plan um but your items on here are slightly different um you know right now we have a 3.15 multiplier for everybody and the cost is what it is you know it's what it is in the 101223 valuation report but if we wanted to change the multiplier then yes the cost would change so I could do that study for you um our minimum fee would be the $1,545 um and so but with that I could look at both like a 3.2 multiplier and I could look at 7% member contributions right now you have 6% and I could look at that multiplier to be for either for everybody current and future retirees or just future retirees so I really could do like a item study to say okay let's go to 3.25 for future retirees or 3.25 or 3.2 for all retirees current and future and then increasing the member contribution rate if that's what you'd like me to do as Adam said you know there's a lot more to it you know there's other ideas on the table but um for this particular you know what if we want to change the multiplier or the member contribution rate I could do that study for 1545 we have to that that uh that sounds good to me I I am particularly curious about the number at 3.25 to 3.29 um well see if I do 3 25 okay you have 3.15 right now and it's pretty well linear so if I do the 3.25 you know you'll know that if you just add four10 more to that you'll be at 3.29 that way you don't have to pay for a bunch of extra studies I understand I think most of the membership wants that fixed R so when you get hired you know when you retire you're going to get 3 point whatever it is fixed not the fluctuating thing and let everyone I talked to yes I know I know that you know we've got lots of options and and um Joe said you know maybe down the road we could do a a membership meeting you know a workshop with the boards the police and fire boards and the and the members so they could come and understand you know what we're talking about but that would be kind of separate from this study I guess Mr Lon yeah so I wanted to use the word fix because when Patrick began his overview uh he described various options and he said one option is we can fix the multiplier and it it made me chuckle and if anyone was listening or sitting in the room uh they might say fix it well what's broken so I I just want to clarify that when we use the word fix we're not fixing something that uh that you know that's uh mechanical and needs to to be repaired that means putting in place and the reason I'm mentioning it is because I think I heard someone also use the word variable so right now the the multiplier can change from year to year uh which is good and bad it's good in years where it's going up but it's not so good in years where it's going to go down so that's why when we use the word fix we're talking about fix in place in other words make it a a level or a flat multiplier rather than a fluctuating multiplier and and I'm going to be the first one to admit that there are lots of moving pieces here this is It's a complicated conversation and there are no right answers because these are policy decisions where ultimately you know people have to get comfortable with it they have to understand it and uh you know then we have to implement it and it does require an ordinance change so it's not just the trustees and you can't wave a magic wand ultimately it has to go to the City commissioners and to the extent that unions are involved you know the members have to agree to it also uh if something's going to be be bargained or something's going to be waved and just implemented without a Union contract so U that's why I think it makes sense if trustees have questions since we have the actuary feel free to ask those questions and I welcome that opportunity if we want to do a workshop down the road I think that's an excellent suggestion if it was Jill who had that idea because some of this stuff is new some of this stuff doesn't necessarily make sense to the you know to the average reader and uh you know we want to make it as non-complicated as possible and Patrick is very good at doing that trying to to simplify things so that that's my way of saying ask questions if you have questions thank you Patrick would we still need a study if we just said can you tell us where we need to be to give these retirees a fixed income after they retire with the least amount of adjustment expense wise on the city and the plan well yes I mean we can definitely do that I mean that's what majority of our other plans do well almost all of our other plans have a a nonfloating multiplier so that that it's it's um unchanging from the time they're hired to the time they retire and after they retire but but your ordinance your city ordinance right now says that it changes every year based on Actuarial factors so that's what Adam's saying it would have to be negotiated and adopted by the city to make it a fixed or a stable multiplier but I'm sorry is that ordinance was that done to benefit the city well they it was done to to um satisfy the way they thought the law was intended back a long time ago so the idea of the law was you know we're going to collect premium taxes from citizens of Palatka and then we're going to give those premium taxes to the pension plan to provide additional benefits for the firefighter and so the concept with that is well you have a general employee plan here right and they have a two and a half multiplier so we've said okay well let's take that extra premium tax money and determine how much extra multiplier can be can be had above the two and a half that the general employees get um so that that that's why the ordinance is written that way it basically says every year we look at the state monies and we say you know by accumulation of those State monies what multiplier can we pay to the to the current firefighters including the retirees so it had Merit or basis a long time ago but it's not the standard way in Florida of all of our other plans it was kind of unique to patka in in so it that that's what we're saying it could be changed so that you could be like any other plan and then you could share the increases in state monies in the use of like a share plan or something like that but the firefighters would have a fixed multiplier a stable multiplier does that make sense does that answer your question little bit so like gu like Mr livon there's there's a lot of moving pieces here I understand that um so so it's possible you would have another client of similar size and membership as ours that maybe you could model uh after theirs uh correct yeah we could definitely do that you know and and yeah yeah we could do that you know as long as the speak because what's this is going to do if we put if we make it fixed a set multiplier for the retirees and for the active employees what that means is that if the market goes way down well then the city has to put in more contributions right right now if the market goes way down we say oh well now we don't have quite as much accumulated State money so we're going to reduce the the benefits to the retirees to the active employees so right now you know some of the risk you asked is it to benefit the city well the this structure benefits the city in that or this structure right now benefits the city and that if there's investment losses that really gets shared between the city and the members and the members share it in the form of reduced or increased benefits and so it it would be a different structure it wouldn't be wrong or or anything like that and it would be more along the lines of all the other plans in the states So when you say that oh I'm sorry go ahead Mr L so you know if you had a thought I don't want to interrupt the thought and then I'll I can come in oh um so when you say that the city of Paca is unique so how how unique is that how many other folks do you serve that have this type of setup well we have about 200 plans that we deal with in the State of Florida and none of them on once they retire we have no other plans that their benefit fluctuates do you think that has something to do with us being like the fourth poorest city in the state no I really don't I I really think that it just has to do with the fact that a long time ago you know before I even started and I've been here for 26 years before I even started there was an ordinance written and it and like I said it it's it's not that it's a bad concept you know to take the state monies and accumulate them and pay extra benefits to the r to the to the firefighters it's too bad that it's said in the original ordinance that any adjustments would apply to retirees that part they didn't necessarily need to say you know I do have some plans where where the multiplier can or the member contributions can change for active employees to share the risk um but I don't think I have any even that change the multiplier for the active employees but but I don't think it has to do with whether pac's poor or Rich I think it was just something that patka did a long time ago and they've never changed it maybe it's the fact that ala hasn't thought about changing it and other cities have made changes over the years I don't know but I don't think it has anything to do with the Bess or richness of P so we can uh so is this something that all the boards would need to do at one time or I mean you can't we have our own well that's why I think the the workshop idea is good because it's not even the board that makes these decisions you know it's the city that has to change the ordinance and as Adam said if there's unions the unions have to sign off on it also so that's why he's saying let's do a workshop with the boards and the city and the membership all at the same time so that they can people can ask questions and understand it like you're doing right now you know this is a complicated issue that that isn't simple to explain or just put in two sentences yeah yes but for clarification um each board has the right to to to work its uh its plan the way it sees fit correct so we changed our vest from seven to 10 years some years ago there should be no reason why the pension board couldn't fix its multiplier as long as it's negoti and the and the pinion board sees it in agreement yeah but that seven to 10 year vesting or whatever would have been done by city ordinance the the board would have recommended it and gotten the cost and said hey here's something the membership wants or the city wants and and here's the cost and you know we're recommending you you take this into consideration but then the city is ultimately the one who would change the vesting provision certain so in effect we're just bottom line if we if we try to move forward with this kind of change that we'd be asking the city to take on more risk depending I mean if we do a share plan then then the risk is still born some by the members because if the state money goes down then the members get less into the share plan so there there's still some risk sharing that can be done it just wouldn't be exactly the same as it is right now can I ask a question are we able to go to public comment in this case yes we'll open the floor to public comment yes ma'am oh I can't she he just open the floor he did okay so my question is the real goal is that the uh you know that the retirees do not experience fluctuation right once they retire isn't that our primary goal and then our secondary goal is that our active participants do not have too much variation between the time they start and actually move into retirement so it's such a a goal even achievable P because I think that's what the real call is here well it's it's very it's very achievable I mean you were with the City of Quincy right before this yeah their multiplier doesn't fluctuate right right so I mean it's doable because 200 other cities are doing exact same method so right it's very attainable exactly and I think that's what I wanted all of us to understand that what you're asking for is achievable and uh Patrick is correct that he probably will most definitely have to do the study because what he has to do is give us some options so that on our side the city Side we can chill possibly do some projections you know okay just wanted to make sure my mind was correctly thank you anyone else for public comment seeing none we'll close public comment thank you now would be the time to vote for the study if there are no further [Music] questions you got more questions um trusty as I can give some additional I don't want to call it Insight but additional color or commentary if you want yes please so repeating a lot of what we said at the prior board meeting there there are lots of moving pieces and there's no right answer and ultimately the pension board can make recommendations and the pension board can uh you know guide the conversation but it's not the pension board's decision it requires an ordinance and it requires uh you know labor and management to to be together on the same page so that's why thinking it through and looking at it and getting various eyes is a worthwhile process so another point is that there is no right answer and that's why one of the first comments I made earlier is there's nothing that's broken it's worked for years and if you wanted to leave it alone because that's always an option is you always have the option of leaving things the way they are and attorneys call that the status quo so you can leave it alone but you heard some of the the goals that were announced by someone who was speaking in public comment and if one of the goals is to to put in place or to fix the multiplier so that retirees don't have the possibility the risk of their benit it going down then that's something that that Patrick can work with you to do and to put in place an ordinance that would would lock down in place the the retiree multiplier uh and everything has advantages and disadvantages and I I like the word risk because that's something actuaries talk about and the city has to understand that and the trustees should understand that also that there are pros and cons and one of the pros of the way things have been done is that the multiplier could increase over time and it did increase over time but at the same time there's the possibility in the future the multiplier could go down and and that's one of the advantages and disadvantages so and then when actuary talks about risks uh you know the the possibility is that if you do lock down the multiplier uh that's why there is risk potentially for the city in bad years over time I I think Pat Patrick can describe these are manageable risks but from any year any given year there could be more risks for the city and that's why the share plan methodology where um the multiplier doesn't change but the share balances the share allocations can change that's something which I think has become very common the last couple years is to is to share risk in the share plan so you'd be sharing your premium tax money but also sharing risk in the share plan so some of these terms we don't throw around every day and these may be new terms for some of us so it's important that we understand it that we ask the actuary questions again we'd love to discuss this at a future Workshop making sure that labor and management understand the the various pros and cons and getting back to the you know the the idea that was put on the table which is the additional study Patrick do you want to summarize what that study does and what the study doesn't do that way they can decide if they think it's constructive to vote on it today or maybe they want to pull it and and consider it later but just to summarize for everybody what that proposal was or any other propos it's a it's a that right now right you know we talked about how this multiplier fluctuates but right now it's 3.15 where the current retirees and the current active firefighters and so this study would say okay if we want to change that right now um to a different multiplier the city's cost is going to change and so I could do that study to say what that's going to do to the city's costs but it isn't really fixing or or addressing the issues that we have you know the other issues that we're talking about you know right now if we just change the multiplier right now depending on how the ordinance is written if the ordinance is written let's change the multiplier and and put it as a fixed multiplier then then you would fix your you would address the issue of floating multiplier but ideally they could just increase the multiplier right now and still have it fluctuate every year so is that what you meant Adam so so just for clarification if it's okay um if you got if it's if it's all right I would really Patrick like to know what a fixed set rate multiplier I don't know what the I'll try and say this the correct way what a fixed set rate multiplier 3.25 costs totally city right the total cost of a 3 25 fixed set multiplier for active and retirees correct I understand I understand and and the finance director is there and if we if we if I do the study right now and right now the cost for the city for next year is is um I don't have it in front of me but let's say it's 25% of payroll well if I do the study and it goes to 30% of payroll and we in that ordinance when they make that change to the multiplier if they delete that section of the ordinance that says every year the multiplier is going to change based on Actuarial factors then then you have the permanent long-term cost of the current benefits because that that's what I do in the valuation every year so yes I can do that for you um so yes I can but like I said then once we give this to the city and say hey we want this 3.25 multiplier for all the current retirees and the active employees and we don't want it to fluctuate anymore you know then then it would be up to the city to decide if they want to do that yeah yes yeah I think we understand I but they can't they don't have anything to operate on if they don't have that solid information yes I see what you're saying definitely I can do this within you know four weeks at the latest if you guys approve it today if we were going to do a workshop would it be better to do a workshop before or after this study we can do it afterwards because I mean I think Jill has a lot going on and so it almost seems like it's better to do a workshop after there's a new administrator you know that that type of thing anyway so I have another question so say we went and we fixed the multiply to 3.25 then on the good years when it would have been 3.35 where would that money go does the city get to keep it right that's where the risk is on the city and as Adam said sometimes that's positive and sometimes that's negative so if we have a great year in the Investments then the city's funding requirements are going to go down if we have a bad year on the Investments the city funding requirements are going to go up and and so the the the risk of Investments is going to be all on the city but as Adam said if you look at the multi the history of the multiplier for the fire fighters it's generally gone up so you know we've generally had good invest returns you know over the long term I averaged it over the last 20 years I want to say it was like 3.26 something over 20 years was the average that's talking so the other but so yeah so you're those no longer would the the multiplier change unless it was negotiated you know no longer would it change it would be 3.25 and then every time I come every year and present that valuation report I'll say oh we had good experience we had bad experience now the city's costs are going to go up or they're going to go down and so it's it's that's that's the way it works for all of our other plans in Florida you know and that's that's what would happen so the risk can be good or bad for the city it's more volatile you know the city's costs are going to go up and down more significantly because now we can't pass any of that on to the members benefits their retirees benefits or the active employees the Patrick your study would be geared just towards the firefighters or just well it really is looking at the overall cost of providing a 3.25 multiplier whether that comes from the city or the members it doesn't much matter matter um it's a fixed cost and and it's based on the 101 2023 valuation you know based on the assets that were in the plan at that time the membership that was in the plan at that time here's the long-term cost of providing a 3.25 multiplier and and then in the future you know things aren't going to always happen exactly as we expect so then all of a sudden oh we didn't get our 7 and a qu% investment return so now the you know somebody has to make up that money so it'll come in the form of increased City contributions or reduced City contributions if we beat the Assumption so it's it's the long-term cost as of right now um for that benefit structure 3.25 multiplier let's say and and right now the members contribute um 6% and so you know if they want if that cost goes from if that cost goes up by 1% of pay and the members want to increase their contribution from 6% to 7% then the city wouldn't have to have any increase for this multiplier Improvement does that make sense well um when I do this study it's going to say the total required contribution to the plan is X percentage of payroll and then I'm going to say okay that's what it is right now based on the 3.15 multiplier and then I'm going to say let's make it a 3.25 multiplier well now instead of the cost being x% of payroll it's y% of payroll it's you know slightly higher and and so that increased cost can be borne either by the city or the member the member could increase their contributions to pay for that multiplier increase or the city could increase their contributions to pay for it okay I was yeah maybe I didn't state that question too simply so what I was asking is the study that you do and the cost of that study is that something all three boards should contribute to to have done or or is it just particular to each board well this would be I mean all three board well the general employees don't have to do this right they they they don't have the fluctuating multiplier so it's really only the police officers and firefighters that have this issue and so the police officers might want to look at changing their multiplier also but that would be a whole separate St study so that that would come from that board so really it would be from this board or from the city if the city you know is interested they could pay for it but but the the cost is really distinct for this board because I'm looking at this valuation and these members and your assets which is totally different from the police officers so this so the city ordinance we have that they're talking about changing just pertains to the firefighters and the police officers have the exact same type of language police would have to one yeah okay okay that's but like right now the police officers have a 3.05% benefit AC cral rate and the firefighters have 3.15% benefit AC cral rate so you guys have different benefits but you both have the same general structure sure that you know every year have to look at how much the state monies can buy and provide an extra multiplier for either the police officers or the firefighters you guys have the same structure as far as that goes but you don't have the exact same benefits okay yeah that's fine that's what I need to know kind of we can do our own thing that's all and then if I may ask one more question this study Patrick will look a little rough in comparison because we're at the lowest multiplier we've experienced in a pretty long time so of course the percent of payroll is going to look higher than it than it normally would right I mean the the cost of the overall plan is higher because we had investment losses in 2022 so yeah the Baseline higher so if we increase the multiplier that's going to go up a little bit more sure but that's fine because this sa is going to average out over the years so it's okay I think the I mean my personal feelings having had mother and father work here in putam county for some 40 years is uh the key is to get these guys when they retire to a fixed income where you can budget and plan around that without any fluctuations and I think that uh once folks put their time in that uh it's the city's responsibility um you know to to make sure they're taken care of that way uh I just think it it it just you know I don't know of a lot of people that have a fluctuating retirement check every month that that just seems odd to me um and I could be you know showing my age but we don't like it either that's why we're yeah I couldn't imagine not knowing if I'm going to get $500 or $600 this month and I'm I'm trying to live off my retirement income that that would be hard to do and hard to manage so uh I I I would say let's get the study done and then we use that material as a workshop is that in the form of a motion uh yes sir so moved I second all in favor I right motion carries unanimously thank you Mr Patrick I appreciate it no problem and so basically from this point forward then I'll do this study the board will get the study and and can share it with whoever they want to share it with and and then at some point down the road after we do the study you know maybe we'll try to set up a workshop and you guys could talk about the work shop at your next regular meeting in in June you know you could say okay you know let's plan a workshop for you know down the road does that sound like where we're at think so yes yes sir how long been four weeks so are you clear um Patrick what the study is going to show or what I'm I know what I'm I know what I'm going to show I'm going to show a 3.25 multiplier instead of 3.15 and I'm going to show the cost of that and I'm going to show the cost of it if we just do um uh future retirees or if we do both current and future retirees and then I'm going to show also what if the members want to go up by one percent what does that do that sounds great y Mr levenson thank you so what I would add trustees and there's no right answer is that to keep momentum going forward and one of the topics that came up is you know who who do we share the study with and nothing here is confidential it's all public information so my view would be that uh there's no harm and you could always give advantages and disadvantages but in my mind there's no harm in letting this sharing it petrick with the city and uh also when trustees get it you can't talk about it with each other because of the sunshine law but you could absolutely share it with other folks on the labor side of the table or management uh so that way and this is I think the next follow-up question which is do we want to begin the process of U of scheduling that that joint workshop and it's really not for General employees as we talked about it's for police and fire and I think it'll be useful for for police by the way to see that study because they may want to borrow from it and and build on it in a way so it will be very interesting to see police like about it or don't like about it so so that's my observation is that uh to Jill and to the finance department do we think that are there possible dates looking forward to the next uh you know two months from now or so when we might want to try to meet up again or do you want to do the workshop at around the time of the next meeting or do you want to wait till the next meeting before you try to schedule the workshop well here's here's an idea too um you know is that we're also going to have this transition to a new administrator and and so maybe we want to do it around that time so that Scott I don't know if he's still in the room but no you know he could come up and and visit too with the membership you know all at the same time and that way that might be even more productive because this doesn't have to be done the multiplier is already set in stone for 101 2024 so there there's not an urgent to this I mean obviously we want to get it changed or or addressed but I think we could wait like even three or four months from now and and that way the board can talk about it at their next meeting you know and say hey let's try to set up a workshop and it could be more towards the end of the fiscal year that makes sense so we can schedule that at our next meeting five M makes sense to me Mr L ad one more question if we meet with labor can um Mr suden and I be there together or do we need to attend that separately to explain to the to the labor union so trustees that is an excellent question and I'm really glad you asked it and and my perspective is it's better to be safe to be conservative rather than to unne necessarily uh create perception issues so the answer is you could in theory be in the room together but what it does is it opens you up to the criticism that you're violating the Sunshine Law why are you in the room together and that that's why it's a trap for the uny meaning that the Sunshine Law if you're not hypervigilant you know people can always make assertions that you inadvertently did it or purposely did it so that's why my preference would be you know individually meet with labor individually meet with management but don't do it together because uh there's really nothing to be gained just meet individually and the other thing is uh you can't use another person as a conduit to communicate with each other right so you know if you're meeting with the city manager or meeting with a union official it doesn't matter you know don't uh don't make it seem as if you're asking the union official to communicate with another trustee or using the manager to communicate with another trustee which is why the workshop is a perfect you know fulm or a perfect uh you know launching pad to have these conversations because gets noticed as a board meeting and you can talk all day long at a board meeting or at a workshop and share information so so that's my answer is feel free to share the report that comes down from the study that comes out of Patrick uh feel free if if anyone wants to ask you questions that's great but just be careful that there's no perception that two trustees are talking with each other behind the scenes or otherwise does that make sense yes sir thank you thank you um p can you provide us with a email letter or something just stating what you're doing and that cost sure I can email Joe okay thank you any further questions from the board when is next the next meeting is June 4th at the normal 10:00 a.m. the other boards will be meeting earlier because of the demands in this room but you're going to be meeting at your regular time any other business a motion to adjust motion to adjourn Motion in second all in favor thank you guys you thanks guys I appreciate it have a great evening too thanks everybody bye now --------- e e test one two three e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e ready are we on at being 1:30 on March 19th 2024 we're going to commence the proceedings before the special magistrate for code enforcement for the city of patka by way of introduction my name is Ron Brown I am an attorney licensed in the State of Florida and pursuant to city code and state statute I've been appointed by the city commission for the city of St Augustine to serve a special magistrate and to preside over today's proceedings this is not a formal cour of law we are not bound by the formal Rules of Evidence or the formal rules of civil procedures you might find in a court of law state statutes however do require that we follow the basic rules of fairness and due process make sure that everyone has an opportunity to be heard and to present all evidence and testimony they may have ask any questions they may have and make any statements they wish to make and we'll make sure that that occurs it is as I said it's not a formal court of law the proceeding will be that the city will make a presentation regarding the alleged violation and the facts and testimony and evidence that they have to support that violation we do have some cases today where we're looking at a u second review of certain cases where there's uh a claim by the city that it's appropriate to impose a lean on the property for unpaid fines and lack of compliance and we'll take a look at those to see whether or not there has indeed been no compliance since the date of the order requiring that compliance and finding the violation um we normally take the cases in the order in which they appear on the agenda however we make an exception for those who are present and we'll take the case in the order of their appearance and so we'll be calling those cases in the order of the persons who have arrived in the order in which they arve however all of the testimony by state law is required to be what is called substantial and competent that means that's testimony that an average person would find appropriate to make a reasonable conclusion and it's something that the courts look at when they take a look at the types of proceedings on review that testimony must be sworn so I'm going to ask all those persons who will be testifying today please stand and take a oath if you are respondent yeah you're going to be here one of the land owners and I'll I'll ask you identify yourselves when you come up and then and ask whether youve taken the oath but at this time I like everyone here to take a notes let record show that we have three code enforcement officers and three respondents in the room raise your right hand please pleas do you saw me swear or from the testimony you should give today should be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth let the records show that all have answered in the affirmative I don't know if you really need to raise your right hand or actually need to raise your hand at all but it is important that you uh affirm the oath and make sure that you under all right we're going to take the case in the order in which again uh the respondents have appeared today that being the case the first case is going to be case 2022 uh 20 property located at 101 Madison Lane Avenue Paca Florida owner of record appears to be The Heirs of Anna ham in care of Virginia ham and ma'am are you Virginia ham I'm Ronda ham um Virginia she passed away okay your name is Rhonda Ronda ham okay and you're a relative of that's my Auntie I'm I'm our niece is it Anna or Anna Anna Anna yeah but but um she she she was my auntie right all right but you're a relative how are you related to Anna um she's my great grandmother okay your great grandmother do you live on the property um not since the 90s sir okay but you are here and you have taken the oath correct yes sir all right so what's gonna happen were you here before in the previous hearing this the first time yeah I thought you were I thought you were very good all right then you know how this works Mr Green's going to go through the uh City's presentation to see what this is and basically where they are today there were three violations that we found uh looks like [Music] um what was the last hearing Mr Green um um Janice M came that's my mom well I'm sorry 616 2022 it's been too long two after where has this been since then would it come up for um L yeah yeah because according to the record it look like it's accumulated almost $39,000 in fine yes sir is there a reason why I took that long to bring it back you can bring it back after three months yes sir we had a uh we had a couple more that we was dealing with before we got to that one and when we redid the hours count that's when we realized the account was at$ 30,000 and your reason I bring that up is I don't want to put the city in position I don't want to be put in a position leling a find that some Court down the road may find to be excessive because it's a lot and so you're saying was just time needed yes to resolve this all right just so you know what we're dealing with all right the three original violations back in 2022 we're having to do with prohibited conditions and public nuisances a violation 30- 32b doing rect or der property left on the property and this is mostly personal property is that correct Mr Green yes sir and then section 30-32 A1 prohibited conditions and public nuisances trash and debris and section 30-32 A2 of the city code prohibited conditions and public nuisances overgrown grass and brush and is have any of those violations been corrected Mr Green no sir all right you're going to tell us about that yes sir right you got some photographs for us yes sir do the photographs actually represent the condition of property date in which you took them yes sir and you took these photographs personally yes sir let me ask in terms of due process if I may um to the respondent who's present how did you get notice of this today um it it came in my my post office box and your post office box is box 992 poac that's my mom's but I I use it too but but I got another one um it's 531 all right so you did get notice of this yes sir got here okay and Mr Green you sent them to both addresses is that correct no sir I didn't have that address I had this address we had now 992 that's with um the tax collector and the property appraiser did somebody else sender can can y'all put it in in my um P box but okay I'm sorry making sure she got the right address I'm concerned about due process on these things because they need to know yes the the the property pres has um M car Virginia ham and that's PO Box 992 and the tax collector also had the same address whatever happened in before to make sure she's got notied make sure we continue doing that yes I noted for the record that her PO Box is 531 good thank you and just for the record this a property praiser continues to carry the property title In The Name Of The Heirs of anah ham which means she has passed away and there's been no probate of the estate and no subsequent title has been determined in any error uh sir um How much would it cost to put in my mom's name I'm just telling you here's here's the way this works the city is required by state law law to send this to the owner of record at the address of record as maintained by the property appraiser and tax collector of of platinum County that's who they go with and they believe those two agencies believe that the owner or The Heirs of anah ham at pox 992 PKA 32178 which means that the ownership of the property according to that at least has not been transferred as a result of any kind of probate proceeding to any heirs or anyone else right um well my mom she's the last um Heir um but she didn't transform it over into her name um how how would we we go back doing that CU you're going to need to get legal counsel for that there is a procedure you can follow for that okay but that's going to probably require a lawyer part to get it in in appr Probate proceeding probably is not a complex probate proceeding but it's not something we can do here oh okay just so you know I'm just trying to make sure we got the right people in front of us but you're sir that's where we are all right Mr Green now we're talking about the photographs and there were three violations now you can see the photographs up there posting okay and show us what you have it is picture one from from January 24 2022 and you can see him up here also and this is the reference to wreck and darl lake property trash and debris not talking about the house itself but you're talking about the debris around the house yes the trash and debris around the house and also the structure that's dere and Rick all right and this photo was taken on January 24th 2022 okay this was the original yes sir all right and this is picture one seat which was taken March 15 2024 so there's been okay here's what one at a time record let him you'll get plenty of chance let him speak and then he'll let you talk okay go ahead and tell me so is this worse than it was in um yes sir 22 yes sir can just give us a brief description for the record how it's worse um the back wall has fallen in and the side wall has fallen out and more of grass and brushes growing over the the the so this the remnants of the house and the debris in the yard both need to be removed is that correct yes sir does that require permit yes sir please go forward next and this is picture taken January 24 2022 W and D poty with trash in debr and then today this is 2C this picture was taken March 15 2024 wck and deav the Propet trash and debris right this picture and so hold on re and der just so I understand that section of the statute want distinguish between the personal property and the building said said aband it looked like it was sled abandoned property includes but not limited to wct or der property been left behind when it appears that the for R is not intend to come back pick it up or use it um positions left in the house position left out side of structure vessels Vehicles Etc we're not talking about that yet are we you're talking about the house but the house isn't by that definition abandoned property property but examples include possessions left in a house outside of structure Vehicles vessels Left Behind the Side Road period of time not to see 10 days that's what you cited right no sir I abandoned the abandoned abandoned property was the house dest stru it's being burnt down it's wreck and it's D quot says yes sir doesn't say that right you want to add something to that no let me do a little homework right Qui I you want to make sure we're clear talking about the same thing yeah the house is you've got situations where you've got trashing debris and overgrown grass and brush but it should have been D stru may I please ask anyone that's gonna speak to speak into the microphone what yeah it should have been dar stru Ure instead of property uh when we first cited it so we would definitely move home with the trash and debris and the uh the the other two cases that he already CED all right that makes more sense in terms of what we're dealing with just make sure they match up all right so what you're going for in these initial set of photographs with the condition of the structure itself and the collapse of the structure it looks like after a fire correct yes yes one all right then there's trash and debris and yard yes sir in violation 3032 A1 all which needs to be removed and you have to have a permit for rest of the house structure correct yes sir please look forward this is the overgrown grass this was taken January 24 2022 okay next overgrown grass March 15 2024 right that's anything else no sir all right and the total fines to date are what $ 38,9 25 and that was at $25 per violation per day $75 a day yes sir it has mounted and you were not here at the first year were no sir are you didn't think you were so you just found out about this and came today or yes sir are you appointed by the family to come no I just I got I got the papers okay well let me give you an update just where you are with this what has happened is that there was a previous hear concerning this house and unless you've got something that contradicts or defense provides a defense for why the house in the condition why you don't have to clean it up City's got a position that was determined at a previous hearing about a year and a half ago that that the structure is needs to be demolished and all the debris needs to be removed and the vegetation needs to be mowed and taken down it hasn't happened how result of that that $75 a day fines have occurred okay um how much will it cost for the city to to tear it down um or or they can't that is something you'll have to discuss with with them I don't have the authority to make that determination they can under the law complete what's called an abatement I don't know if that's what they're asking for today they're asking for the recordation of a lean on the property for the amount of the acced fines and the fines that may AC after today's dat and that'll be recorded on the public records and the properties ever sold that lean's going to have to be satisi paid now the city commission can reduce that lean if you apply to them for that okay once that lean is put into play after today only the city commission can reduce that amount of money trust me when I tell you the only reason the city brings these things is that they want to see some compliance they want to see the property improved and the problem solved on the property I'm not really here to necessarily find somebody they want to get some results in terms of making something happen but the city could eventually end up owning it the city could eventually you know have the cost of knocking it down themselves if that's what they determined to do that's something the law allows to do today the only thing they're asking for is the recordation of a lean that abatement process can come later it'll be back here again sorry so okay yes it's something that can happen but you have to be aware that those costs are going to be lean on the property also at the city where they address and those are going to have to be paid back okay sir um can you put all that in paperwork so I'll so I'll know what to do I'm not oh I'm going to give you an order that tells you what what's going to happen next okay you need to make contact with Mr Green over here and let him know how you can contact him and he can contact you to resolve all of that okay all right um you've got the hearing you can get a a copy of the hearing if you want but basically where you are is that and again you're not technically the owner of the property you may be someone who can be the owner of the property if the probate proceeding is completed but right now this estate owns the property theate of Anna and that lean going to go against that property in that name the city U again has some options that they can work with you on in terms of how you address this okay but that's the solution either whether the the owners do it or whether the city does it is that the structure is going to have to be demolished and all that debris removed that's going to take a permit from the city and the grass is going to have to be mowed which can be done without a permit but that's what they're looking for okay and it still cost us 75 bucks a day every day it's not done okay so well work I you're going like that hear this today but it's it's what it is right now and you have you talked with Mr Green before or Mr cutro um I've I've talked to him I don't know this guy well okay you will he's the one he's the one who brought these claims against the property oh okay all right so you need to make you he'll love to talk with you I am sure about it so that's where this is right now so if you and the family want to save the property the immediate problem is how do you get a place cleaned off and perhaps you can then go to the city commission and say I'd like to get the you know the amount of the lean reduced I've taken care of all this not going to be inexpensive I know I know I got I got some money coming though so um okay I'll leave that to you it's that but that's where this is right now and again City really doesn't want your money as much as they want to see the problem solved yes sir okay and you're the second person here um and trying to address this situation was no one here the first time no sir I don't think so no okay you're first person here is come okay okay but again it's something it's a family issue really that you need to take a look at with all of them I know how many other people are well um my family the are my cousins and they don't want to get involved with it so it's either me or me well you might you might find that a lot of your family might be involved in in the a situation resolve the property so nonetheless um that's where this is right now okay it's it's a situation is going to require probably require a lawyer on your part to solve the title and it's going to require some some Ingenuity it's going to require some money okay um right here it say on the CL the the tax collector it says um different amounts and the last one is $617 which are you looking at the U this this piece of paper here I think I'm able to land value oh that's you're looking at the tax bill yeah that's a difference yes sir so um when when I pay that well those are taxes that are due the county on the property and just looking at it for what it may be worth to you I don't think they're even valuing the structure of that just taxes on the land yeah oh okay they've got the property the taxable value of $155,100 which undoubtedly is the value of the land perhaps even reduced a little bit by the cost of trying to clear it off oh okay but those taxes just so you know and I'm not your attorney those taxes eventually might result in what's called a tax certificate sale the county will put that on on a auction to see if anybody wants to bid on it and somebody might sometimes do that if nobody bids on it it'll go back to the County eventually somebody however could get a deed for the property with value of the taxes if they're not paid but that's something you need to investigate as to whether that's a good idea or not yes my first time up here but um get it yes yes sir I am I'm I'm I'm gonna pay that and well here's what I want you to do you might want to check with some legal counsel first and stay in t with Mr Green about what you're doing need to be done okay sir right now what you're going to do there going to be a letter um we're going to find the violation uh is appropriate of 30 32b 332 A1 and 332 A2 concerning the um der property the house as well as the traction debris the ilum grass and brush uh we're going to find that those continue and that it's appropriate to enter order allowing the city to impose a lean on the property and record that lean on the public record that's going to go to the address of Rec and the other address that Mr Green and Mr C cutright have for you okay so you know um but be aware if nothing is done um it may come back for an order allowing the city to foreclose or to evate the property which would just create more cost okay okay sir all right you Mr Green need to change some information about how to stay in touch with each other okay okay all right thank you thank you for coming today you're welcome sir so weay T okay thank you all right next case is going to be a new case case number 2023 162 propy located at 1420 Washington Street yes sir and the owner of record is Kimberly Edwards is that correct yes sir and Miss Edwards is that you you can come forward can I come you may come on and just identify yourselves with the record please I'm Kim Edwards thank you for coming and you sir I'm her brother-in-law Alis SE Walker Jr and both of you took the oath prior to your appearance today is that correct yes okay that's the record show both indicated that they have um this is the case of first impression the city's got a duty at this point to show that there's a violation they have claimed it looks like four violations is that right yes V green 30-16 69 building fronts inside the budding streets of public areas that there's rotten and weakened wood and deteriorating walls on the side of the building that faces the public RightWay which is Washington Street is that correct yes sir it's just not a corner not corner lot no sir 30- 171 regarding Windows is that there are broken windows uh in the home 30-32 prohibited conditions and public nuisances that there's trash and debris in the property and 30-32 prohibited conditions and public nuisances that the screens are in disappear is that correct yes sir all right and just for the record on due process we have your address Miss Edwards at 401 well Street Paca 32177 is that correct 401 Wells Avenue what's that well Avenue I think that's well it's the same you know the property praiser for some reason thinks it's a street well on the side it says but it's an did you get the letter from the city I got one okay the latest one and you did sign a green card and you are here thank you for coming today I know this is sometimes difficult for people all right this is mainly about a dilapidated building correct Mr Green no sir it's a house a house okay which is a building but it's a house it's a it's a building that's a house all it's not levitated though okay all right we have due process satisfied uh you have some demonstrative evidence did you take the photographs you're about to show us yes sir and do the photographs actually represent the condition of proper and date in which you took yes sir all right what's going to happen Mr Green's going to show you some photographs of the property he's going to explain uh orally what some of the violations are uh for each photograph yes sir and this is first one is the notice of hearing posting yes sir so you posted it also in addition to the loty yes sir anybody living in this house Miss Edwards no okay it's abandoned vacant just vacant okay all right Mr Green please proceed okay this is picture 1A um this picture September 18th 2023 it's showing the broken wonders that's the front yard that's facing Washington Street that's picture one B take it March 15 2024 that's the same say same same elevation same one I haven't seen jealousy Windows like that in a long time right this is picture 2A taken September 18th 2023 showing the trash on debris on the side of the house and so what we're talking about here is man-made debris yes sir not talking about vegetation at this point we're just talking about the man-made objects in the yard scattered around you can see these from Washington Street yes sir this is picture 2B taken March 15 2024 they got rid of some of the trash in the bre but still have some in the rear of the house that you can see again it's the man-made yes sir okay this is picture 3A this is taken from 15th Street um it's taken September 18th 2023 of the trash and debris you can can see the property from 15th Street yes 15th Street so it's on a corner yes it's not a corner house but it's there's one house in between that house and that house and if you walk down 15th Street you can see the backyard but you're still on the public right away with this okay okay back up back up so is this a collapsed shed or building or something I think they think they tore it down and never came back and picked up the trash and debris so looking at what's the city's position the man-made objects on the lower right as well as the structure yes sir all the all okay that's all a violation yes sir okay next and it's picture two 3B taken on March 15 2024 this is the same po up yes sir next this is 4 a showing the screening and disrepair this was taken September 18th 2023 okay next and this is the same screening taking 3:15 22 and 24 right anything else that's the um take pict taking September 18 22358 the rotten weaken wood now this is on the roof on the Washington Foundation this going the entrance going inside the house uh and the the s in front of the house and you can see this from Washington Street yes sir you were standing in Washington when you took this photo yes sir okay so what needs to be done the the wood sofit under the roof yes need to replace what's underneath that um the first L the second l in between the two it looks like there's a piece of wood just underneath the roof and then there's another is there another wood underneath that yes yes sir yes sir so wood needs to be replaced both those socks need to be replaced okay next this is for 5B same elevation same picture taken March 15 2024 same elevation yes sir so like there two roof lines there there there's a roof line on the top and then a secondary roof line underneath it yes they have a roof over when they first walk in the house the entrance and then they have another piece of roof over that these are soft is on two separate roof lines yes sir okay next this is U further down on if you facing the houses on the right side if you're walking down Wasing the street going west you can see that house you can see that rotten weaking wood on the soet and this was taken September 18 2023 okay this is a close-up picture of it taken March 15 2024 this picture 6B and this is 3169 yes sir they do not have to have a permit to replace the soet um if it's just um um just just a percentage of it but if it's all around the whole house then have to have a permit and this is the deteriorating wall seven taking wall is that it's um stuck over the gray material that heed to build the houses out of the W yes okay and this is taken September 18th 2 and three so what needs to be done to bring that into code according to the city they could place uh more Stu but that's compatible to the rest wall or they just need to patch it and repair they could patch it the is compatible with the rest of the structure okay next and the 7B just taking March 15 2024 it's a clearer day clear clearer picture basically need to patch the ear underneath the window yes sir under the middle window that's an unusual stucko application haven't seen that in all right next that's it that's it and none of this requires a permit long did not repair all the softw no can you still get gy Windows no I don't I don't think so you may to get the sles maybe seen those in years May to get the sles from another house all right so none this requires per so what I'm what I'm hearing from the city is we have this siding repair of stuck underneath the window we have some broken jealousy windows we have some screens that need to be repaired and we have looks like three instances where wooden soet on the roof needs to be repaired none of which requires a permit correct yes right I the cities brought this to me and said these are violations and there there seems to be some deterioration to them any responses or questions you have uh we completely concur with what Mr Green saw and first question that I have is it possible for this home to be sold as is this is my sister-in-law and I'm willing to purchase that house and take it out of her hands uh will will a purchase at this point be possible well I can tell you I don't have authority to to make any decisions along those line I'll tell you this it's probably always possible to sell it there is in this country absolutely a constitutional protection that says you can always sell your property may not be able to use it but you can sell it in terms of what's going on whether someone will buy it buy at a price that's acceptable to you I can't tell you right that's something as to what how much time that's going to take and whether the cities got the patience for that that's up to the city in terms of how much how much time they want to give on this we give 90 days okay okay you think you can sell at 90 yeah we're gonna try to do a quick sale uh some kind of quick deep sale out to find out how what all that entails what but uh that's what's Mya at the same time while we doing that right I try to take control of the property we correct those deficiencies that you see at the same time well again the city isn't trying to get you to sell your property they're not trying to do anything but see if they get some compliance with the Cod they just want to get it fixed 90 days um just make sure we've is had enough time to get they don't need a permit but you're going to have to get a contractor and and some work done on those uh if that satisfactory with everyone that's satisfactory with me I don't have a problem with it the thing to be aware of is that on the 91st day there's going to be a 70 be a $100 day fine kick in is $25 per violation per day like I said City doesn't want the money they want compliance just so you know right so is it possible Mr Green to pick it out to 120 oh 90 is you you mind that yeah we can give you 120 I sure appreciate it because like I say and I just be brief with this we is anticipating her brother coming back he was gone to take care but he uh he wind up with some serious health issues where he's been in the nursing home twice right so he is no longer uh able to help me do what we got to do so therefore that 120 uh days should give me a enough time to get finances together and things together to get it uh that's going to be July 17th okay this year okay there's not going to be I'm going to find that there's a violation of the three provisions and I'll announce that in a moment but just so you're aware it give you 120 days which is a very generous time frame until July 17th there'll be no fine that occurs until July 18th sir but it can start on July 18th yes sir you need to make sure you stay in touch with Mr Green and keep him up to date on what the compliance is okay because even you get partial compliance you can knock down some of those fines from acre 20 you know yes sir so it's it's it's a definite advantage to keep imp posted as to what kind of progress you're making what your outcome is and so forth because it'll be up to them to determine whether there's compliance or not and whether it comes back okay whether the fine start but important thing is you don't want to come up on July 17 not haven't had any contact with and then suddenly 100 bucks a day starts kicking in because they really don't want that they want compliance that's all they're really looking at right if you have any other questions no sir sir there's nothing restricting the sale of that based on your your Finance okay good appreciate it don't have the only thing you were here earlier for say case where there was a lean imposed on the property if it gets to that point then yeah that can in yes POS a difficulty with a sale all right uh based on the evidence of testimony presented we going to find a violation 30-1 169 of the city code building fronts and sides of budding streets of public areas the public public Street being Washington Street a residential property was rotten and weakened wood on three areas of sopit um that need to be replaced and does not require permit U there are a violation of 30- 171 due broken jealousy Windows which at least need to be replaced is that correct yes sir and if you can find the jalousies um if not you may have to go with a different window or you could board them up would that be yes it do um violation of 30-32 prohibited conditions and public nuisances this is basically trash and debris in the yard that's being made uh and 30-32 screening and disrepair you got one screen that needs to be all right we enter order finding the violations and find that it's appropriate to have 120 days until July 17 2024 for compliance in the event of non-compliance a fine of $100 per day that's $25 per violation per day in the event there is not compliance um hopefully we won't get to that you'll get an order in the mail at the address of record and make sure we get that and please stay in touch with Mr Green regarding all this okay definitely will thank you for coming thank you thank I have question the Does it show the value please use a microphone does it show is what the tax collector has as the assess value and the taxable value which can be different depending whether there are any exemptions the tax collector tax collector has it looks like wow with the putam county general fund which there are different exemptions that are G uh looks like it's between 78 and $98,000 that's how they're taxing it and they and not to get into the Weeds on just how the tax code works but there are different taxable values depending on what jurisdiction is taxing right two three four there's seven different jurisdictions putting taxes on this property and um and the values for those taxes range from 98 780 to 787 250 that's what the property appraiser has it could be more or less you know what somebody else might be willing to pay for it but nonetheless that's how it's assist okay okay thank you so much hang on he man I think I got you got the right one yeah I got the wrong one hang on a minute M Edwards I didn't tell him WR one okay you gave the wrong number but the number I was looking at I already opened the other pH yeah I was like this is not the same okay I'm straight all right next case is going to be case number 20238 property located at 19 see 119 aelia Circle yes sir in patka owner of record is John Keith Robinson Miss low this is your case yes sir let me uh just inquire is John Keith Robinson present or anyone representing John Keith Robinson hey seeing and hearing a one miss L tell me about her attempts to contact Mr Robinson yes sir I had good communication after our first magistrate hearing and um he was able to pull a permit and then something happened he hasn't um responded back to anything the neighbors said they haven't seen him and no work has been done to the property and the permit has expired did he attend the first heing no sir he didn't but he did come down a few days after and we discussed it with you yes sir with me did he indicate a desire to try to he wanted to try um those were his best words and then I told him at this point what he needed to do was try to get a permit if he wanted to fix his up because he would have to the permit expired if he was doing the work just for our due process due diligence it appears the address of record for Mr Robinson is 623 Georgia Avenue Hinesville Georgia 31313 is that correct that's correct and we sent a certified letter did you get a green card back on me not for this not for this one but I have in the past okay doesn't look like it was signed correct correct not yet sir all right and you posted the property accordance with State Statute yes sir I and you have your Affidavit of service and posting in the record correct correct sir all right and this is the case of second impression seeking a imposition of a lean is that correct yes sir and we had alleged violations of bound violations excuse me of 30-32 a due to preib conditions of public nuisances overgrown grass trashing debris paint deterioration tree growth is that correct that's correct sir and 30-1 169 of the city code building fronts and sides of buding streets and public areas rotten and weakened wood and deteriorated structure yes sir correct that's correct and the street front is AA circle isah circle all right all right and we had a hearing when um excuse me our first hearing was it was back in May um 32123 May 22nd 2023 correct it's been a year right yes sir this photo was taken um January 27th 2023 it was the first photo 1A of the det take all the photos you going to show us today's demonstrative evidence yes sir I did and do the photos accurately represent the condition of the property on date which you took from that's correct all right please proceed yes sir this one again um 1 a19 isaa Circle this uh photo was taken January 27th 2023 deteriorating structure it's uh deteriorating on the right the roof and the outside structure walls are gone so V was looking at to the right of the white door yes sir and it's just opened yes sir open and those are studs yes sir The Roof Is Gone the roof is gone how has that Chang from a year ago um really nothing has changed if you go to photograph 1B so this one here was taken on March 15 2024 the deteri structure um for the second hearing this is visible from AA Circle you could just see where the walls deteriorated a little bit more on the outside this Photograph here is going to be 2A it was taken on January 27th 2023 of the overgrown grass and the broken tree limbs in the property okay and if you go to the next slide please this is going to be 2B um the grass has actually gotten worse and there's a few more tree limbs um that has fallen for um so this was taken on March 15 2024 the overgrown grass tree limbs uh second hearing visible from AA Circle roadway this is reference to 30 days 32A yes sir the gorgeous oak tree there think old all right next that's it sir all right so there's been no improvement and the conditions there's been no effort to address the violations and conditions have actually worsened in both the condition of the structure and the vegetation overgrowth in the yard is that correct that is correct sir right and What's the total amount of fines as of today that have approved as of today sir it is at um 15,000 and that was acing at the rate of $50 a day $50 a day sir right last call for John Keith Robinson or any representing John Keith Robinson having found the due process has been satisfied attempt to contact the um respondent at the address of Greer as well as by posting I have respondent has not appeared to make any response to the complaints either at the previous hearing or at this hearing and finding that the violations of section-1 30-1 169 and 30- 32A have not only continued but have actually worsened uh in the the years since the finding of violation was determined that find an appropriate to enter an order allowing the City attorney to file a lean against the subject's property and to be reported in the public records as of today's date the to drawing to 15,000 that's a $155,000 even yes sir 15 even all right five shall continue to acrew at the rate of $25 per day per violation until the satisfaction of compliance 25 or 50 it's $25 per day for violation yes sir there was two violations I missed that part Mr Brown sorry don't panic is that you circle is that the subdivision no it kind it's just a circle around um they consider themselves a subdivision but there's houses on each side of the road and it just circles around if you go off of fern or Ivy Street off of St John's you go straight down Ivy Street and it's the Circle Road okay all right next case is case number 23 43 property located at 618 North 19th Street poy owner is the estate of Sarah Johnson and this is also Cas seeking imposition of a lean is that correct SL that's correct sir right looking for anyone who is a representative and Heir uh of the estate of Sarah Johnson is seeing and hearing no one miss L what efforts have we made to try to contact one of The Heirs of Sarah Jones yes sir I have tried um even before the first magistrate hearing which was on April 18th um still could not contact anyone um a lady a neighbor across in front of the house she had a number for Mr Thomas and when we tried it it said no longer in service and that was the only contact she ever had for the property owner I've mailed several Letters Out out um asking for contact I've tried to find them and as of to date still no contact with the property owner the address of record is the state of Sarah Johnson in care of Willie Latson lsom 6801 Northwest Fifth Street imp Plantation Florida 33317 correct that is correct and that's the official address on the property appraiser and Tax Collector's roles yes sir that's correct did you send certified letter to that address I did Sir did it come back with a signed Green Card the original Green Card when first 15-day compliance a year ago did come back but nothing since and no contact was made right and did you post the proper in accordance with State Statute yes sir I did and posted here at City Hall yes sir I did and your affidavit is included in the record correct sir all right so we have two alleged violations we found violations on um have 30-1 169 building fronts and side of buding streets or public areas deteriorating structure no windows and fire damage at 30-32 a the city code prohibited conditions and public nuisances overgrown grass tree limbs broken tree limbs on the property correct that's correct sir all right can you show me what the condition is today yes sir are the photographs you're about to show us did you take these I did Sir and do the ACT represent the condition of the property and date in which you took them that's correct all right please proceed so this Photograph here was taking um this was the first one back in was taken on March 13th excuse me March 1st 20123 um 618 North 19th Street um 1A that was the condition of the property and this is seen from which Street 19 North 19th Street 19th Street okay so if you go to 1B Ben can we go to one thank you so if you go to 1B the same angle um this was taken on March 15 2024 the same angle um you can see where the building has to De deteriorated even more so the deterioration is the roof the siding doorways it it was a a fire structure okay um and then over the years just not any any anything being done to it it's just falling so some of the roof is Fallen the walls are now falling in right so it's gotten worse in the last year yes sir next please yes sir the view from 19th Street North 19th Street yes sir so this was taken on March 1st 20123 um excessive growth grass and weeds and brush um you can barely even see what's left of the structure when you look at the main main View and then if you go to 2B this is uh the same view um it's actually gotten a little thicker um this was taken on March 15 2024 visible from North 19th Street again we're looking basically here at the overgrown vegetation yes sir is there actually any roofing material on that roof or is that just like underlayment it's like plywood there's a tiny bit of 10 left but most of it um the 10 is blew off and it's it's in the property so that's just the wooden underlayment yes sir okay next that's going to be all the photos all right so the conditions of property basically deteriorated in the last year yes sir the vegetation has actually grown up higher and thicker in the last year yes sir had no contact with anyone representing the property no sir and we posted ordance with code and due process is satisfied yes sir with the total amount of leans as a lean fines as of today are what the total fines today is $10,700 how do y'all get these to come out even okay so it's acre at the rate of $50 a day $50 a day yes sir all right based on the evidence and testimony presented uh we're going to find that the violations of 30-1 169 of the city code building fronts and sides of buing streets of public areas due to deteriorating structure fire damage wood damage roof damage window damage uh structures open and accessible and deteriorating further than the last year as continued and violations of section 30-32 A prohibited conditions and public mut overgrown grass tree limbs and broken tree limbs on the property and not only had the problem not been Abad in the last year uh the vegetation has continued to grow and is now thicker and higher than previously based on those circumstances we're going to find appropriate to enter an order um authorizing the City attorney to finally lean on the subject property in pursuant with the requirements of for statutes 169 16209 total fines as of today's date total $10,700 fines at the rate $25 per day per violation shall continue to acre until satisfied or Abad yes sir final case appears to be case 2023 34 um owner of record The Heirs of Ella m brown property located at 1019 Washington Street in patka this is the case of second impression um city is requesting an order authorizing the filing of a lean against the subject property Mr Green yes sir let me let me ask first is anyone here who is an heir of Ella m brown specifically an a Ella m brown or FMA Collins anyone here I anyone here representing the estate of ell and brown or anyone here who is thel M Collins or representing the molls you seeing and hear any one just make sure we got our due process down the address of record appears to be 5938 Norton Street Columbus Georgia 31907 is that correct yes sir and that's the official address of record on the bar phaser and Tax Collector's roles yes sir okay and you sent the certified letter did you get a green card back no sir [Music] um I did not see where the Postal Service gave any notations on the return of the certified letter no sir get contact with um call anyone who's an heir of the estate we on 36224 um Allison Collins calls and she say she was finalizing probate on the house okay did you say anything about trying to repair the no sir property or clear the property no sir and when was that on 36 of this year yes sir just when he got this last notice and you posted the property for with State Statute yes sir and you have your rid devit of posting in the file is that correct yes yes sir all right there were six violations is that correct 30-32 A1 prohibited conditions in public nuisances Roofing and disrepair section 30- 32 A1 of the city code prohibitive conditions and public nuisances trash and debris section 30-32 A2 prohibitive conditions and public nuisances overgrown grass and brush section 30-32 A1 privity conditions and public nues finishing a disrepair 30171 broken windows and 30- 213 unsecured entryways presume that's windows and doorways is that corre yes well sir yes the front door and the garage and the short answer is anything been done with the property to address any of the alleged violations no sir and do you have some photographs that shows regarding the condition of the property yes sir and did you take these photographs personally yes sir and do the actly represent the conditions of property on date in which you took them yes sir all right please proceed next picture this picture one this was taken to 2023 show an unsecured entryway the front door is wide open where it's not a door there so anybody can just walk in all right so there's no door there at all no sir and this is 1 c 3 T taking 3:15 22 and 4 four the vegetation grow up and you can barely see but the doors there still no door there this still unsecured entryway yes sir right and this is on picture two it's taking o um O2 2023 unsecure entryways um this is where the fire department cut inside the house to put the fire out it was a fire at the structure yes sir this is just an opening in the side of the house it's a garage door garage door is open yes sir okay P two SE taken March 15 2024 just look just darker so what is this a picture of the door the same one as the previous photo yes sir the garage door being open yes sir just vegetation R open It's Kind it's Shady now even more can you get into the rest of the house from that door yes sir next this is picture um three taking two 23 um Ro and disappear all right this is a ASB sh roof yes sir disrepair is what the pop the top of the house we they have the line that holds the roof down it's popped open it's burnt okay I'm looking at the the dark area the roof been basically opened it's a gap next this is uh taking 315 24 3C and the so on again where the Gap is all right was that the same condition as it was during a previous hearing yes sir has it gotten worse yes sir in what way um just coming down for it this way the wood is getting rotten now the to and the paning under the tile rotten okay next and this is pigil 4 taking 2223 broken one is in reference to 30- 171 yes sir right did that condition also previously present yes right next this is um p 4 C this taking 315 224 is in same condition is with a broken window yes sir this is picture 5 taking 2223 overgrown Gra pass is the front of the house right and this is T 5 SE taking 315 2024 overgrown grass it's gotten worse right this picture see more of the overgrown grass taking 2 20 2 23 and 3:15 2024 picture 6 SE overgrown grass see fencing and disrepair this taking two 23 this is the front of the house and this is picture 7c taking 315 2024 V in disrepair and this is eight all taking two 2023 trash and debris we're talking about just the man-made material that outside the structure yes sir okay and this picture AC taking March 15th for same trash and debris just the trees and the other stuff will covering it up right making it darker right anything else no sir has there been any sign in your observation of any work done to improve any of the violations in the last year no sir right what the total amount of fines that's acrw as today oh 3,750 right last call for um an heir of Ella m brown anyone representing an air of Ella m brown or thma Collins specifically or anyone representing thma Collins seeing and hearing one and finding that due process has been satisfied in accordance with the notice provision of chapter 162 for of statutes and finding that the six violations of 30- 32A A1 prohibited conditions and public nuisances Roofing and disrepair continue of 30-32 A1 prohibited conditions in public nuances trash and debris man-made trash and debris on the propy continue section 30-32 A2 prohibited conditions in public nuisances overgrown grass and brush continue section 30-32 a11 Reed conditions in public nuisances fencing and disrepair continued section 30171 broken windows um continue and 30- 213 unsecured entryways continue fined appropriate to enter an order allowing the City attorney to uh file a lean against the property in accordance with provisions of section 16209 for to statutes as of today's date the total findes AC are 30 [Music] $3,750 $3,750 fine shall continue to acre at the rate of $25 per day per violation there six of those to be $150 a day for all of them until satisfaction or compliance that being the end of our agenda we are going to adjourn the proceedings with before the special magistrate at [Music] 234