101 on my clock so um I know your time is precious so we're going to go ahead and get started good morning everyone welcome to the second session of the CTA ese joint study um as per the last negotiated contract I appreciate everyone being here and thank you for your time um if everyone could just take a brief moment introduce yourself so that we know who you are I do want everyone to know that this is being recorded and will be posted on um the district website and on YouTube um afterwards so that anyone can watch and see what we're talking about and my name is Germaine English and I am the manager in labor relations I'm Lori Barefoot manager in compensation and employee Information Services hi everyone go ahead I'm Kim Thomasson the principal at Gove Elementary School Kevin McCormack director ESC Justin cat CTA executive director Gordon long Hofer CTA president Angelina galesi Schmid Labor Relations consultant and guys oh go ahead sorry Hazel McFarland I am an ESC support facilitator and also a member of CTA hi guys David relli ESC teacher at Royal Palm School okay and Caitlyn Shaw is also with us she is the HR specialist for Labor Relations she's unable to mute herself and uh introduce herself because the room she's in would cause a whole bunch of feedback so she's going to um save all of our ears from that and not unmute herself we appreciate that thank you Caitlyn so um um this is our second session there was some information that was shared with um management and CTA in regards to this that was requested from the first session um I'd like to again state that um this committee is actually completely full I am actually not a member of the committee on either side I'm just here to help facilitate and that this is a conversation we are not negotiating anything here at this table we are having an open conversation back and forth as it pertains to ESC and supplements and their salaries and Alicia if you want to unmute yourself really quickly and introduce yourself we'll go ahead and continue from there hi sorry I'm Alicia stiger I'm the elementary one of the elementary instructural superintendents for the South Region and no reason to apologize it happens to the best of us so here we are on a Thursday and I'm going to turn it over to Kevin McCormack our executive director for ESC and Lori Barefoot um compensation as they have worked with these numbers okay I guess I'll start real quick we um followed through with what we had discussed the last time uh lri has done a lot of research um looking at structures for other districts like us um some little bigger some smaller to be able to uh kind of compare where we're at and how we compensate um and provide additional supplements for our um staff who support our s swd subgroups so um I'm gonna go ahead and turn it over to lri because I believe you know that's what we're really all interested in here today to be able to review and ask questions and provide feedback so appreciate everybody's participation in this and um as we go through just to kind of knowing the work that lri has done as as she presents if there are questions let's talk about it because there are aspects um you know that this this document has evolved over time based on the questions in in research and clarification that's been needed to get it to this point I'm gonna try to present here and uh we can let me know let's see there we go that should be it and tell me if everyone can see this coming up all good yes okay um um um of course both sides have seen this um I'll just give a a a quick um summary of what's involved there was a first go round of the draft materials that um I compiled and uh one of the focuses um was of course getting as many of the um the Florida urbans to uh provide their data um not an easy task this time of year given the complexity of ESC and having to tap into the right people let's if I can make this a little bigger I don't know if I can let's see is that better um anyway all one more one more yeah's that better thank you okay I I mean it's as good as it could get I will say it's a it's an extraordinary amount of information um to facilitate everybody's ability to even digest it was kind of why I made every effort to really consolidate it into one sheet so you could see the various categories of where we're looking at your clinical based ESC jobs which are the speech language Pathologists the audiologists and the occupational and physical therapists on the one side and then the larger Group which usually involves 15 to 20 titles or more of es ESC jobs in each of these organizations and then kind of a unique job which I it gets met differently I think in different districts but it's the ESC coordinator who's really kind of the Hands-On site at the schools for making sure that the compliance is there that the the ESC teachers are getting you know the support that they need um ensuring that the school is complying with the with the the directors that come to Kevin's Department from the various reporting entities um and then anything that might have been non specific to ESC in general that I thought would be useful information for the group um what I did do since the last time I shared these data um if something was applicable to the whole teacher population um I pulled it out like for instance if your whatever your if degree supplements were provided in that sort of thing um if it applied to both ESC and nonc teachers um that kind of thought muddied the waters a little bit I wanted to sort of say you know this should hone in for us specifically what the goal of this study and and data Gathering is you know what is unique for the ESC function with respect to the teachers uh for these various agencies uh the last addition that we also have was we were um able to get duball to provide us their information as well so we removed degree supplements we added uh Duval and then we try to encapsulate everything in this one sheet um now if there's anything as we go through our discussion today that we find you need me to elaborate on or or we should look into further uh please let me know and we can have that as an update for our next uh session um and I'm going to guess that CTA had an opportunity to look at this as well as our district management side and I'm hoping maybe you brought questions that I might be able to help with or comments hey Lori um not so much a question but just an observation in kind of some direction as to where we were thinking and these are these are roles or titles that we had we had kind of been circling around or honed in on in the past but I think some of the data that that you were able to you know put on this sheet and gather points to other districts similarly thinking these titles or roles are um above and beyond a stereotypical ESC teacher role um and they would include things like case management if someone is quote unquote a case manager um and Kevin might be able to elaborate for me on that a little more as far as you know ESC teachers who have some cases versus a case manager if there's differentials there and then obviously a lot of districts have also focused in on some of the the most complex of the ESC positions or or students they service such as ASD and EBD and self-contained and things like that um which which again you know the whole the whole aspect of of ESC educator is is a difficult one and above and beyond what a typical classroom teacher would probably have to handle but then within the sphere we personally have always viewed that um working with these even more complex um difficulty such as ASD and EBD uh should come with some extra compensation and we see that in the form of some districts like dual and orange providing targeted supplements for people who are willing to to take and stay in those positions that's something also that Kevin might be able to weigh in on is that you know turnover in education is is Big to begin with in ESC it's even bigger and then when you drill down from what we've seen or what we believe you know turnover in those tougher position similarly escalates because it just you know it it can be overwhelming if that's not exactly the passion that you you want to pursue no no one's going to stay in those types of environments with the difficulty and the complexity of the work if they don't want to be there so to fill those vacancies or to to lower the attrition and turnover which is to the benefit of the students obviously um some extra incentive would seem like the only option because it's not like you can make the job that much easier it is inherently a very complex um difficult job for the teachers who stick with it so just some some thoughts thank you I can go ahead and comment to some of that uh just as part of discussion um the case manager role we often see at the secondary level middle and high school uh that case manager often uh receives that role when they're a support facilitator um and in any of the uh principles um Mr Thomas please chime in at any time those teachers not only provide services but they also provide additional case management to make sure that the data is continuously being collected and also the information is included in I'm going to call it the drafted IEP when it's time for the coordinator to bring everybody together and and meet with the formalized IEP team so to your point Justin yes it is a a significant amount of additional work and of course the ESC contacts or coordinators uh they are also a a critical role in that to make sure um one that services are supporting the principal and administration make sure all services are provided and and that we have that extra layer of monitoring that we have the data and information we need to write a compliant IEP um the ASD indd EBD so defined as our self-contained programs um this is something that we've been talking about for years and I know going um way back even with CTA and and talking about um the vacancy rates what we can do to be able to support this group I have um consistently said to anybody even in our um CTA ese meetings that we've had over the years uh this this group of teachers although they do have a smaller student case load the intensity of their role is just so much more when it comes to lesson planning preparing IEPs providing Direct Services pretty much throughout the day and and those Services include all subjects so their prep time is also increased so um that in itself uh are are above and beyond the typical classroom teacher that that we would refer to within the bargaining unit does that help yeah and I guess I had a follow-up question I'm pretty positive I know the answer but I just want to confirm it kind of for for the purposes of our discussion and what might become negotiations as a consequence of of what we what we do here um you know obviously as it relates to the school district and the school district perform performance and the district grade and school grades you know students how the students who are in some of these self-contain classes or all of them you know they their education and the quality of Education they receive and and their results or their scores directly influence school grade and District grade at this point in time correct yes sir it's probably I'm going to estimate seven eight years ago when the state formally ensured that students on access points so uh some of our kids within the autism spectrum all of our kids U within the um category of intellectual disabilities historically yes they didn't count prior to this state coming forward and saying all kids count um at that time is when we and and we've been working on it prior to that but we made sure they had all updated curriculum that we weren't just putting them on a computer program all day and I'm getting the same thing over and over annually uh and and really getting curriculum to teach to the standard because to your point those standards are going to be assessed on the Florida alternative assessment uh so uh yes that is correct it's it's critical for these kids to be able to perform and Achieve um both for them uh for themselves for their school grade and and for the overall District grade thank you Kevin so that's definitely something I wanted to you know a sad reality that we have to pay attention to school grades and school district grades whether we agree with the measurement systems or the the state's interpretation of success or achievement or growth but it is a reality um and it it affects the school district and the the teachers who come and work for the school district parents who choose to relocate move to Palm Beach County and go into our schools with their students so we just wanted to put that out there that it is a reality um to pay mind the fact that in reviewing school grades and the school district grade from from the past year that you know CTA has has kind of come to the conclusion that there are opportunities to gain success in these classrooms with these students which not only benefits them directly obviously but then in turn benefits the district and the perception of the district and and the reality of how our residents view our our services to their their students you know so we just we don't want to make that a focal point but at the same time we do want to make sure that that is a piece of our discussion because keeping teachers in these positions um lowering attrition rewarding them for for a difficult job above and beyond the average instructional Personnel um you know that the benefits are not just the teacher makes some more money the benefits are to the direct student service to the district as a whole and our performance so um we just want wanted to highlight that and make sure that was part of the discussion because the implications aren't just um you know they're doing a tough job they they deserve some more money it's it's far more complex than that so thank you for your responses yeah and if you don't mind me adding to it um u based on what you said of course there's a student achievement aspect which which helps grading but there's also the financial aspect of what these students bring in and and to the credit of of our our ASD teachers and our principles that how our SD programming we've got a good reputation nationally and some internationally we've got families coming here from all over and and not to say that our school system is the only draw but um when they look at options when they're looking at South Florida a lot of families are coming here because of the programs that we're offering and the reputation that they've established for themselves over the years that being said the ASD program continues to grow year after year over the indd and EBD but indd and EBD uh stay stable and should be staying stable for my perspective as far as uh student attrition and and how we're providing and the number of um programs that we're providing throughout the district um that being said they P pull in what we call weighted FTE so these these students based on their level of services and their IEPs draw more money uh based in the more int in the services the more we're providing the more weighted funding we get through State funding so that's also part of the conversation thank you Kevin so those are kind of our initial CTA thoughts and Reflections just based on a a first blush look at the data and thank you Lori for for reaching out and putting in the effort to cble this together from AC Ross the state um so we can kind of compare ourselves to our peers and see what they're doing so we can compete you know and attract and retain the people who who we desperately need in these hardto find positions so just one more comment based on vacancies um we're we're doing better with vacancies now as as we're I think attracting more teachers we're come becoming more competitive with our surrounding counties um just my caution and I say it um whenever I get the opportunity is if we go in the other direction we're going to be in trouble because it's almost like a pay now or pay more later uh scenario because we're required to provide free appropriate public education as a public school system and it's important to be able to make sure that we're we're providing all services to all students and and the major area that I see and and based on looking at this yes we're doing well and we're competitive our speech and language pathologist that's our largest vacancy rate for a specific position um but you also look at what we're paying um and where we're either at or above all of our other peers uh around us and throughout the state so um I truly attribute our vacancy rate to um just a national shortage because you know it's with that specific group we are very competitive if not leading the pack with how we're compensating that group of of Staff the others I think where you know I that's where the conversation would need to go deeper does does anybody else want to weigh in on the the district side okay are we then um could we create a breakout room to to caucus just to touch base with our members um thank you very much Germain e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e hey Caitlyn you can convey to them that uh we're ready anytime they are depending on what they're they're up to and obviously if they're discussing things we're happy to wait hello looks like I'm the only one that made it P hi I think everyone is back yes everyone is back okay hi guys I'm just saying hi I just popped in to see who she's meeting with hi hey Rachel we uh we appreciate uh the time to caucus we just wanted to make sure we we kind of discuss some of what Kev was able to provide us and some insights from the the management side of things um so I know we have another session scheduled um that that's likely to be our final session because this was we typically do two or three and this will be three the next one um so uh we just kind of want to Circle back to and and summarize what we talked about earlier and then also some additional things that we talked about in in our caucus a little bit you know the the attention necessary to these self-contained classes and the and the various and acronym positions that are that are high difficulty High to staff High turnover Etc um looking at the comparables from the other districts um you know the impact on our students the impact on our district um another point that was brought up was is also the impact on the employees in some of these positions these are are not just rigorous positions because of the level of difficulty of providing an education specialized and tailored to students who have very particular needs um but also there is you know and it it's documented and if you ask anybody who works in these self-contained classrooms there is is a a degree of safety and and physical concern that also goes along with these jobs um as it relates to the teachers so that's another aspect of why we feel that you know I I don't want to call it Hazard pay but they are in a in a position that does lead to um a higher frequency of potential injuries um or strikes against the teachers many of whom are you know they're not not that anybody couldn't get injured but these aren't a bunch of 200 and 250 pound people in these classrooms some of these teachers are 100 pound 120 pound teachers so a kid can do a lot of damage and that's something that has led to some of the from members that we've spoken to so we wanted to highlight that as well that you know any additional compensation related to the degree of difficulty isn't just academic difficulty um it also involves a position that sees a a a disproportionate amount of potential physical injury or safety concerns as well that came up in our conversations um another thing that came up was the there's some references in some of these other districts to the additional days of compens ation or Duty days as it relates to doing case manager work or or excessive paperwork um for people who have special titles or special designations in some of these ESC positions um you know as much as we want to make sure that they're they're compensated um you know to to their work um and the commensurate to the difficulty and what they do um no amount of compensation can can buy you more time so in some situations we see these districts are bu you get some extra compensation because we're giving you the authorization to do some extra time of work um we discussed in our caucus about you know what would that look like we don't know exactly maybe that's a question I don't know if Lorie we could ask her to find out these extra days of compensation for case managers or other designations on this sheet that are identified are you able to ask follow-up questions to those districts to ask them how they handle that is that extra Duty days at different points in the year which which you know theoretically might mean like Saturdays or is this something where it was brought up in our caucus by Hazel that you know many of the platforms for completing some of the paperwork for ESC students um fortunately is done through online software that can clock and log your time and your activity so you know if if you wanted to do the extra work on a a Monday night from 7 pm to 10 p.m you could log those three hours and that could lead to a day's worth or two extra days worth of uh compensation for the the workload that you can't complete during the duty days so we just wanted to find out what those extra days look like in reality versus just you get paid for two extra days of work to do more work um that was a question that came up that we didn't have an answer to and we definitely think we better inform the possibility of looking at that as an option how extra days you know present themselves to the teachers who might become eligible absolutely so thank you for that Lori um just a quick comment to that Justin if you don't mind um we have the ability to monitor usage in edpl if that if we need hard data um we can we can get that data if needed and the only other thing is the I and I know we're not going to use it but the injury and Hazard to the job I'm I'm sure David and his colleagues at Royal Palm school could speak to that significantly that is something we consistently work with our risk management department on and make sure we have the proper um you know um gear um and safety equipment to be able to try to keep staff as safe as safe as possible based on that understood thank you Kevin um so you know our goal is kind of as we said at the onset of this meeting was to try to kind of focus more specifically on the the duties or the job titles that are just kind of exceptionally exceptional within the ESC profession um and that's what we're trying to to do by looking more specifically at the duties and and the difficulty level and and the turn over and attrition rate so um you know we we'd love to hear any thoughts from the the district side on this I know we're not here to negotiate but we certainly would like you know either now or at the next meeting to get a feeling for whether or not you know the things we're saying and Kevin to some degree I don't want to put words in his mouth but has has kind of alluded to the fact that you know he he sees some of the things we're saying as well um as possibly Meritus of of some consideration and extra compensation or extra work time and Duty days um but we'd love to know prior to going into negotiation I know the my perception to the point to these committees is definitely if we find common ground to to walk into negotiations shoulder-to-shoulder with a concept that both sides see Merit in and then negotiate the fine details and and we'd kind of like to to hopefully by the conclusion of next meeting have a an idea that there is some common ground between us so that neither side goes in with something wholly unexpected um you know that the other side hasn't contemplated you know so of just a thought about what could come in the next meeting as far as coming together if there's the possibility of some common belief that the things we saying or anything you want to um contribute that your side things needs to be done can be discussed before those negotiations but we do appreciate everybody's time and everyone's support um we know everyone knows that this is an area of need as evidenced by the fact that all these districts do have supplements and special considerations for teachers any other position in in you know instructional Personnel you don't see seven eight n 10 different supplements or considerations for time for uh a standard instructional classroom teacher but for ESC you do see a a wide range of concerns that have led to consideration for time and compensation and things like that so we appreciate everybody's time today and Justin the only other thing I'd like to mention and and and depending on where this goes because there's other ways that um what I'm about to say impacts the current bargaining is um we have teachers that are in ese positions uh that in function aren't doing that work so uh and that happens more at the secondary level middle and high school definitely not at the elementary school because they don't have enough at that level but um just kind of throwing it out there so if it's brought up in the future it's it's not foreign to you and I know I'm bringing on kind of more responsibility for my shop but if there's a way for us to be able to verify and I'm just going to bring up the thousand dollar that they get now but to verify that their function is actually not just their job code but their function is providing ESC Services um I think that's important both fiscally for us uh as a system but also to truly respect those that are doing that job and make sure they're the ones that get compensated for it and not just those that are you know um in the ve position but teaching Civics all day or Advanced biology all day so um just a a comment I want to put out there just so it's not foreign to you all if I bring it up in the future understood understood we we would we would welcome any data that um that better displays those who are eligible should be eligible maybe should not be eligible that that is a a fair question so we we see no no problem in in looking into Data to better understand the populations that we're discussing it also helps me and US focus on using staff to truly focus on student achievement because the more teachers allocated to truly support these students the better outcomes we're going to get understood okay I think that that might be it from our side unless does anyone else on cta's team have anything to to add in conclusion for today all right is there anything for the management side okay well I love holding these meetings because I feel like we really get the opportunity to have some conversation back and forth and really get a good understanding of where everybody is I appreciate your time and your dedication to this work and we look forward to seeing everybody at our next session which I think is May 23r give me a thumbs up Caitlyn yes thumbs up I got it all right May 23rd we'll see you all then virtually and everyone have a great day thank you e e