a thumbs up good morning everyone welcome to the third session of the ESC joint study committee for CTA um my name is Germaine English and I'm the manager in labor relations and I'll be helping to facilitate this meeting um we have everyone present with the exception of Kim Thomasson she was unable to make this meeting so she will not be joining us today but I believe we have everyone else from the committee here so we're going to go ahead and get started this meeting is being recorded and will be um publicized and put out on YouTube after it's done and again this meeting is a joint study it's an opportunity for CTA and management to come together and have some open conversations about things related to ese I am not actually a member of this committee because the committee is indeed full I am simply here to help facilitate so if everyone will take just a brief moment introduce yourselves we'll go ahead and get started and go from there or be it for me to be bashful Gordon loffer classroom Teachers Association president thanks Gordon Kevin mcom director exceptional student education Justin cat CTA executive director Alicia stiger Elementary instructural superintendent for the South Region andelina Gales Schmid Labor Relations consultant for CTA and I am Hazel McFarland I am a support teacher and also a rip for um CTA I'm Lori Barefoot I'm the compensation manager for compensation and employee Information Services hi guys David relli uh ESC teacher Royal Palm School James Thomas principal con middle hey sus armus principal Jonna Leonard high school and on camera is Caitlyn Shaw she's the HR specialist in labor relations she's unable to mute herself because if she does there would be terrible feedback and none of us want to have that um again this is an opportunity for us to have conversation this is not negotiations and I'm actually going to turn it over to the management side um because I think that's where we left off if not um please correct yourself and I'm here to help facilitate in any way possible Kevin that was a for you sure so I um based on my recollection of where we left off uh we were um requesting a proposal from kind of everything that we looked at we were uh hoping to hear a proposal from CTA we we did talk about a lot of different issues around our speech language Pathologists our ese coordinators our uh self contained prek ASD IND and EBD uh compared to our support facilitators and other teachers who do not have a a classroom and are the main teacher of record for a specialized um ESC program so uh I want to pause there to make sure that my summary was inclusive of what everybody else recalls thank you Kevin yeah we um we certainly have some ideas um and we were hoping that that the district side the participants on the committee um would either draw consensus with some of ideas or if they have alternative ideas for us to review and and try to find consensus um but our goal in this final meeting is for the the members of the committee who are on the management side and the CTA side to try to see if there's some common ground so that when we go into negotiations with um actual verbage either side uh that you know we can cite that this committee was on the same page at a minimum fundamentally about the need for addressing this aspect or that aspect of ESC compensation and time that's kind of our yeah and in in reflection of that and um I I believe what we can do is the fundamental aspect of agreeing uh overall of of the groups but the specifics around what we would actually do that's not something I I have kind of the Authority for at this point but I we could definitely um agree on like those fundamental concepts of yes these groups are the ones that we agree would um uh be considered to do something based on everything we've talked about and their additional responsibilities that they require in order to do the functions of their job understood the does the the district members do you guys have any um kind of specific positions you want to lay out that we could we could respond to or agree with or disagree with I I apologize and I don't mean to interrupt any flow of conversation but I just wanted to make sure that everyone saw in the um invite for today the additional information that was provided by the management side in regards to some of the um items follow-up items that CTA requested so I wasn't sure if you all needed to have a moment to talk about that first we definitely appreciate that Lori I think you were the one that gather that information thank you for that um it kind of and I don't know if someone on the management side I don't know if Jermaine you had that handy could share screen just so that it's visible on camera uh that new document but it kind of lays out most specifically the the way in which those dedicated days or extra Duty days for certain ESC Personnel are are implemented in their respective districts I think it was it was some positive information that better informs us then just that some people have extra days because now we know what they look like what the arrang of those days is contingent upon you know whether they're awarded or whether it's the mutual agreement of management and the employee in question um I do think it's good information Jermaine are you able to to share that on the screen or Lori I can present that thank you is this information visible to everyone I think I can make it a little bigger I hope yeah if you can make it a little bigger we can see it I'm not sure if I can do that I'm trying here laori if you want I can try and present it as well yeah I had the same problem on a previous meeting uh could you give that a shot for me please sure that is better is that readable for everyone or do I need to uh bring it up just a little bit more I'm seeing everybody's Good's good okay um so briefly I'll just go through the individual uh districts that had either um student contact release days within the the school year or if they actually had a duty Day schedule that superseded the typical teacher schedule for their contracts for their various uh unions um I am awaiting a response from Miami D this morning I reached out to their Labor Relations Department regarding um four uh release days that their contract does call for um for specifically um uh those staff that are assigned to IEP and 504 um planning and um writing of those those plans um I did learn uh while I'm awaiting their formal response of how those four release days are decided I did learn that it's only in the event that the site or Center that this would apply to is if they do not already have a dedicated program Specialists and program Specialists are allocated to various schools and sites throughout their District when there are a minimum of 18 um either uh ESC or 504 students um applicable to that site so I believe the intent there is that if there's uh you know limited Administration support from that perspective that the brunt of that work does fall on the individual who's uh you know responsible for those students on that particular site or campus and based knowledge of Miami D's program Specialists it would equate to our ESC contactor ESC coordinator yes yeah yes thank you sir um for Broward the only thing well Brower was the only one that had both a release days function uh and an addition duty duty day function and so for those that allow for two additional release days I'm sorry Gordon did you have a question no oh okay for those that did have two additional release days within the teacher contact year um they've indicated that the principal is the ultimate Authority for approving those days uh they did not indicate whether or not there was any type of conversation or anything that went into that uh my guess is um you know the principal obviously selects days that are um conducive obviously to meeting the obligations of their individual site or campus you know for whatever regulatory reporting or planning needs to occur um Broward was one of the two agencies that did have a duty day calendar for their ESC specialist that exceeds the typical Duty day calendar there um the ESC specialist there is uh the counterpart to our ESC coordinator um and that calendar typically starts a a around one week earlier than the normal teacher calendar each year and then if there are any differences in Duty days um at the end of that contract year those days are tacked onto the end of that um Hillsboro has a 205 calendar for both their audiologist and uh the functions of Occupational or physical therapist um they've indicated that these they they established what they call their health professional salary schedule for 205 Duty days and they've indicated that these jobs are considered diagnosticians and so for that reason they do have an earlier start schedule um it varies a little bit from year to year depending on the actual calendar but this year um their start schedule was six days sooner than the typical teacher schedule uh and then of course that can differ from year to year based on how how the calendar changes and what's agreed upon each year by their uh calendar committee um for Orange County they also have four student contact release days um and they've indicated that uh Mutual discussion and planning takes place between the affected uh teacher um or counselor and that uh once that's mutually agreed upon um it's ultimately um implemented uh with the authority of that school administrator and then uh for panelas pelis was a little bit unique in that they've only been funding this function during the um the intervening covid years where we had different funding mechanisms to support um all sorts of different uh needs on in the various districts you know throughout not only Florida but the country um they were providing two additional days um these would occur outside of the normal work day and the normal calendar um the way they've been administering it is uh each year by May 1st uh said teachers are responsible for submitting the documentation that shows the time hours days worked and then they are subsequently compensated thereafter uh I inquired as to whether or not since this Sunset is this Sunset is impending for the end of June because of the the ending of their eser funding um they indicated that's unknown at this time but whether or not there'll be an appetite or a budget to look into EX extending that as part of their regular General operations and I believe and that's it that's all of the five that had any type of Provisions for either um release days during the student contract year or extra Duty days on the actual calendar and just for the record for our district we have for our ESC contacts or school-based ESC coordinators they receive five extra Duty days based on a referendum funding we received and then if they're halftime ESC contact they would get 2.5 extra Duty days Kevin you said those those um items you just referenced are funded by the referendum I don't think that they're codified in the contract is that something that in the opinion of the committee the management side of the committee that those accommodations are are of value and do help these teachers with regards to their students in the work and it would be a benefit if that were something that the district and CTA did codify I would have my opinion but I would like to hear from the principles who supervise this work uh how do these um how do these extra Duty days work for you James Jesus I mean we use them absolutely we give them to them and uh and they're very valuable right and along the same lines the uh the whole idea of uh of giving the teachers who have iep's release time don't know if I'm breaking any rules but I do that anyway right when we have our teachers who have large case loads I'll get them a substitute every once in a while and let them catch up or do their work so I would much prefer for it to be in the language right but we're doing it because they need it you know they have they're teaching five and sometimes six sections and and have uh and have all these case loads so they definitely need the time I I agree with Asus and uh you know the fact that we give our teachers subs or are able to and that kind of thing doesn't mean that's happening at all 180 schools so I I think putting it in the contract is a value and a definite good idea ala do you have uh any input on that yeah just same thing just leaving an elementary school site my ESC contact put in more than the five days to be honest with you there's so much that goes on um and and and same thing you know if my teachers with their case loads if they needed extra time we made it work so anything that we can do to help support them because they are on the go nonstop uh would be helpful especially for those you know I think about those self-contained units Kevin like those are the people that are greeting the kids that you know as soon as the buses roll in and don't want anybody else to cover them because they want to make sure they're starting off their day right and the same thing happens in the afternoon you know they're they're they're the ones that go above and beyond all the time to make sure that their structure of their day and their kids are you know having success from the moment they step on campus I I think we also have to consider for those teachers and particularly for the coordinators the amount of turnover we're experiencing presently and doing something about it because um the ESC coordinator position in many schools is a is a rotating door because people get in it they get exposed to it they see the demands of it probably the same for the self-contained teachers you're referring to as well and they they look to do other things and I cannot blame them so I think there has to be some sort of uh compensation and or or some way to keep keep these strong people in their positions and if we put it in the contract language obviously it strengthens that commitment um i' just like to know from the especially from you Mr armos and Mr Thomas uh with respect to uh the fund source for these extra days that the ESC contacts are using is that something elsewhere in your budget that was already there or is that actually funneled to you specifically uh from a different Source outside of your normal uh site based budget allocation hey Seuss if we're talking about the same thing I think we're we are budgeted an extra number of days for each counselor uh I believe both coordinators I'd have to I think the esaw coordinator gets it as well and that enables us to or enables them to chip away it some of their duties prior to the start of the school year uh back in the day we were scrambling to find ways to pay counselors to come in to assist with scheduling anyway so now this gives us those days uh and I that's how it is right now uh we also get that we also get it with CFS and translation so that they can be here over the summer and assist with registrations things like that and it's big it's really big so then I guess if those days are not used then they just get absorbed back at the end of the year and then reallocated to start the next year I can't even speak to it because we use them but I I'm probably Bravo to you Mr Thomas is yeah probably the same thing I mean we use them so we don't give those days back okay that that that still answers my question because of uh uh in thinking in terms of how something this something like this looks when it goes to the table for any kind of a formal agreement thank you gentlemen very much but it's a good question because I can't guarantee you everybody uses them I I I don't know in my perspective uh Mr loffer yes it gets absorbed back and then reallocated the following year okay and I think Justin had his hand up too yeah thank you first I wanted to thank everybody for the dialogue um I think it a comment was made hit the nail on the head for us that there are um you know discrepancies depending on who the administration is and what school it is that you know if depending on different factors whether it's a newer principle whether it's a a veteran more Savvy principle some schools are taking advantage of all the opportunities that they might be able to ring out of the budget whereas others might be more timid or reluctant to do it and since they're not obligated to do it by virtue of some minimum requirement in the contract yeah you do have you do have schools where there are are Great Lengths being taken to afford as much time or extra time as possible to these these overworked um coordinators and and it just we think that it would go a long way if it were codified and we do appreciate the the supportive comments that seem to Echo that because then it would it would Grant permission to those reluctant or maybe timid administrators who don't want to do something that is happening but isn't referred to in the contract and therefore they can't fall back on well I'm supposed to do this or I'm enabl to do this um we just think that the the uniformed codification of it would help with a lot of the administrators and teachers who aren't being afforded this option and then you could obviously educate all School administrators on the the way in which some of you are are saying you're going about this so that they know that they do have these these options and the ability to help out these teachers Jus yeah I um I think a lot of times though it it it does come down to each individual principal and administrator but also many times it comes down to budget you know at Leonard I have a lot more resources right that I might that I might not have at a smaller Elementary School and those kind of things so a lot of times it comes down to not necessarily the principal doesn't want to do something or doesn't feel the need but a lot of times it just comes down to money I mean if we don't have it we can't get it done so you know a place like Leonard you know we've got a you know we've got other resources and and so we can you know our budget is a little bigger and that kind of stuff so but yes if it gets into the contract and it gets funded that's really good we appreciate that and I think that you know we we always try to especially with regards to the ESC discussions that we've had over the the past few years try to point out that it's a it's a common if not pretty Universal refrain from ESC teachers especially those who have uh more difficult exceptionalities to try to move forward or case managers and and and handle a lot more paperwork that you know obviously everyone in every job wants to have more compensation or have more time to do their job that's you know that's not some secret but the universal position of a lot of these ESC teachers is that they feel that the inability to have more time or have more contract days hinders their potential to do their job with Fidelity that's the common refrain we hear is that you know they're given 100% but 100% would go further if they had extra days to do it and and absent those extra days codified in the contract or otherwise you know you're relying on people to to make a a personal decision about a work life balance that at some point and it it goes for a lot of jobs in the in the education industry you could only creep so much of your personal life to try to do better for the students before you you you tip over and you can't give anymore and at that point these ESC teachers are indicating that they're giving everything and then some and it still isn't enough so I don't want to spin wheels here but you know these extra days dedicated and and guaranteed in some fashion um we think would do a lot for the ability of the work and the quality of the work to improve for the students which is the that is the ultimate goal Beyond just getting them more time or getting them additional compensation is that their product and they're proud of what they do and what they do is insanely difficult compared to teachers who have the the luxury of not having exceptionalities to handle and and accommodate so they just they feel they need this to be better and and they it's painful to hear them talk about feeling that they're not as good as they could be so we see this as a critical way to get them to to boost their morale to be able to do better work to able to do more work um to ultimately help the kids well and I think the ripple effect is massive too because we don't compensate probably as much as we should you have shortages and the teachers were talking about that are in the positions are picking up extra case loads and extra classes and extra everything when they already have chall more challenging assignments to begin with so the ripple effect is massive so I think this has a direct impact and a very very like almost a lagging indicator impact in that we might get more people in these positions and there's less uh pressure and less Challenge on those currently in them thank you James so just to to try to tie tie a bow around this one it based on what we've heard and we certainly agree that it would be worthwhile for the district and the CTA negotiations teams to pursue some sort of cific of these days in the contract um so that all schools their budgets their administrators could feel comfortable and be able to Bear some sort of uniform implementation of this that's that's kind of what I'm I'm feeling from this I don't want to put any additional words in anybody's mouth but it seems like we're on the same page that this is a worthwhile item to try to codify to open its accessibility and funding to as many if not all schools I'm hearing the same the only thing I want to add to that is the current funding source to my knowledge is referendum funding and I just bring that up because you all have been in negotiations for a while and and typically it's um from my knowledge um when we're putting something in the contract they like to make sure that it's long-term money and in referendum money is typically uh short term between you know uh when it's authorized and and possibly reauthorized so I'm just putting that out there understood and we appreciate that Kevin um I guess the so you know this kind of at least for for me it seems to have kind of substant addressed each Sid's fundamental view of of additional days SL relase days and funding for that um we also our other big issue was trying to potentially get additional funding for a supplement um you know akin to the differentiated pay for the those most difficult situation or hard to staff position such as EBD um and and indd or ASD and IND um where as best you guys can I guess it for some of these it really depends on the principle in your school site the programs you have because some schools are have a large population of students with these C categories where do you guys stand on potentially identifying whether it's those or other specialized es positions in the bargaining unit to try to put a little extra incentive for people to either go into those positions or or stay in them because I think a lot of times we hear I could attest to that there are ESC teachers who are happy to be teaching ESC they've got their degree and their credentials but there's obviously a wide gap between different ESC positions and the difficulty level and the work required um and a lot of times people who even are in ESC by choice and they want to do it they get into some of those tougher positions and they're like you know what I I don't know if I can handle this level of it I just want to get out and go back to a a you know a lower stress version of it so where's where's your team on trying to possibly support additional supplements for what could be a mutually identified set of es positions that we want to get people in and keep them in because they're the more hard to staff of the esc's so when we talk about hard to staff we're talking about uh ESC autistic uh ESC EBD ESC IND and then ESC prek those are our our top positions that have historically had the highest vacancies now we do have a lot of vacancies in all es positions I want to go out and say that the ve positions there are technically more ve positions vacant but I do have to say that there are many more ve positions allocated which increases the vacancy rate and um so I'm not sure the percentage at the moment but um and unless the principles on the group want to add something else to the group I would say autism indd e BD and prek those are our hardest to fill uh and sorry I didn't raise my hand um Kevin um the ohh or which is it the one the operationally defiant I think I mean when we say EBD I always think that includes that but I don't know does okay it does yes and and I do just kind of in conversation with uh Mr amas um we do have other issues with vacancies with Deen heart a hearing and VI with Mr Thomas's and like but those are they're so unique and there's such a critical shortage nationally of those specific ones which is why um they wouldn't necessarily be included our V our vacancy rate percentage wise uh probably isn't much higher um in those groups than the others those are just very specific unique programs we we definitely appreciate that so generically or fundamentally speaking if the district was able to allocate additional funds from the budget to provide some sort of enhanced stipend or compensation the the management side of of this committee sees that as a worthwhile Endeavor to pursue based on the vacancies and and programming needs um I would safely say um that that we would agree that if it were to be addressed those would be the errors to be addressed okay yeah we we certainly feel that way based on feedback from our from our teachers and and the hope would be to as we said to get people in the door for these positions try it out and maybe the addition compensation in our view might be the breaking point between you know what I can I can give this another year and stick it out and maybe I grow to to truly enjoy it versus viewing it is a very difficult job that I might not want to sustain um so it goes to the heart of Recruitment and Retention um it you know people will people already bend over backwards in in any given position in this district from administrators down to the classroom and everything in between um it doesn't take a lot to tip some appreciation and then that boost their morale and willingness to continue serving in in more difficult or tough to to maintain positions Jesus uh agreed those those tougher jobs the I all those and they're even more unsafe I mean you know you got kids who act out and that kind of stuff but let's not sleep on the subject Area Teachers either because all the time I get people who are certified in ESC and in their subject area and you know they don't they don't want to have anything to do with ESC and I can't get them to to take some you know some direct instruction courses classes and that kind of thing so yes absolutely those are the tougher jobs and we have to do that but I don't want to sleep on just all of them really in the sense of of uh the fact that it's hard to get them to you know it's hard to get a a math teacher who's also ESC certified who wants to just do ESC math or even take a section of it thank you for that that you know that brings up a good point that we do see more than any other scenario where a teacher says you know what if I drop my certification in this area it's always ESC because they they get it on there for one reason or another they have multiple search so they can do multiple subject areas and jobs and if they get assigned an ESC position and it it it doesn't you know it's not to their to their liking we tell them that you know you can obviously be assigned to anything that on your certification and they and inevitably they come to us we don't tell them obviously to drop anything but you know they we don't lie to them we tell them the truth and they see that that's a pathway to get out of ESC when they put it on their certification for a reason and it's a shame to see people kind of they do that for their own personal reasons which are are Theirs to to have but we see people kind of intentionally withdraw themselves from eligibility which is obviously not good for them not good for the students and so that I I appreciate that you brought that point up you also brought up another point that you know would I guess would be a a third issue that we wouldn't mind delving into potentially in negotiations and that is um some effort to put in the contract some enhanced safety or um consequences of injuries or safety concerns for ESC teachers that that is a major fact factor that some of these teachers you know if they go in they're willing to do the job and then something happens where they're struck or or any number of potential physical injuries or assaults that's enough to tip them out of the industry in its entirety people quit the profession once they're assaulted or they feel like they're unsafe because that's obviously precious to them maintaining their health physical or mental so we we wouldn't mind looking at other districts um or coming up with our own language to provide enhanced safety or Services resulting from injury for these employees they just it's it's a part of their job that most teachers outside of isolated or anecdotal incidents really don't even think about but these teachers go into work in some cases every day expecting to have to physically kind of defend themselves if the situation arises and and and they know that it's not in many cases the child's fault it's a manifestation of their exception ity so it's not about saying you know that certain kids are more dangerous than others it's about saying that certain employees need enhanced protections because of the tendency for certain exceptionalities to manifest in physical um you know outbursts Kevin so when we've become aware and request of Comm in we have provided PPE through collaboration with uh risk management a lot of in and that's the part I know I can speak to the other part of that is it's it's more of a when something happens and there it's a workman's comp issue so that's something that I typically don't get involved with on the employee end we try to be more proactive when we know we have an aggressive student uh when we know there's potential risk for injury we try to uh get the PPE to prevent injury from happening uh so um the other thing I want to mention while I have the microphone is um these groups that we're talking about in a kind of agreeing upon uh fundamentally that would need to be addressed in order to retain and attract um that's on the program side of things because I can't speak for finance obviously and and how that would impact but that would be something I would expect CTA would propose as you get into negotiations with with the school district uh in these upcoming months I just had to put that out for the record obviously thank you Kevin um so at this time unless there's any more kind of input anyone wants to give um we wouldn't mind caucusing for a couple minutes and then coming back all right I see the breakout room thank you all very much again we we appreciate the conversation so far we think it's it's moving in the right direction in our view e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e if you can give us just a moment um Kevin had to take a quick call while we were in caucus it looks like he was just wrapping up and he'll be right back in thank you e e e e e e e e okay um it looks like Kevin's back um I that so uh we just wanted to talk a little bit amongst ourselves to kind of to put a punctuation mark on this and first of all thank everyone obviously for for participating and contributing in the committee um it's it's a topic that we've been bringing up for a couple years there's been certainly some movement on it um you know in support of the district's acknowledgement of of tough conditions and need for doing more for ESC teachers to recruit and retain um we think that the conversation today gave us a pretty clear picture of the direction to move in obviously it'll be up to the negotiation teams to figure out the the precise Direction but you know we think we're both moving in the same direction which is key to finding some consensus at the negotiation table to get something locked in for an agreement so um we we're happy to to to make clear to the district that you know we do intend to bring some proposals relative to the the topics we we talked about today uh specifically identifying either opportunities for contractually codified extra Duty days or extra release days um and the corresponding funding obviously to enable principles to be able to actually utilize it uh the identification of the harder to staff uh positions within the ESC Sphere for potential additional differentiated pay supplements um and then lastly but certainly not least um looking at ways to en enhance uh security slash safety protocols and uh the response and the consequence of a safety issue that arises um those are the three things that we're kind of trying to focus on so we don't get too broad in our efforts once we get to the negotiations table as an aside from that Kevin we might reach out to you just to get a a better understanding from the administrative side on the PPE and the processes and how employees could go about doing that because we do know from from you know accounts from our members that depending on the site you're at some sites have feel they have easier access and some sites feel they have tougher access and that just might be a matter of not those employees not understanding processes so the more we know the more we can communicate to them and and hopefully if they feel they don't have access you know get them access to what the district is already affording um at other at other sites so we do thank you um for that potential opportunity moving forward as well sounds good thank you Kevin I think that's that's what we got today from the CTA side well I appreciate you all leaning in into this work I appreciate the conversation the attention to those staff members who are servicing uh the service with uh the the students with some of the most needs in our district so uh this is the first time in my career that uh we've had this kind of conversation and uh truly appreciate uh all the administrative staff as well as CTA that has engaged in this conversation and look forward to uh seeing you all again and continuing this work uh as we continue to work on student achievement and of course taking care of uh the teachers and professionals who are making that happen thank you Kevin again we appreciate everybody's time today and thank you everyone for uh participating this will actually end our CTA ESC joint study commission as required under the current CBA we appreciate your time um these sessions are always fabulous for me as well gives me a really good opportunity to hear from everyone and we appreciate you being on these calls and we went 5 minutes over I'm sorry about that but if I could give you five minutes back in your day I totally would so I appreciate your time and I hope everyone has a great holiday weekend be safe out there thank you bye be sure to hydrate it's hot e e