##VIDEO ID:Mc06BMtVvmk## [Music] [Music] [Music] n [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] oh [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] e I'd like to call the meeting to order please if we'd stand for a moment of silence and the pledge of allegiance aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible liberty and justice for all all right Madame clerk do we have the roll call please here Christopher P here John Moody here Matthew Ms here dler here Richard Chell here sh Charles here and the proof of Publications the items are advertised in the Tampa Bay Times on May 1st 2024 July 10th 2024 and November 6th 2024 and by app certifi and okay thank you all right well I'd like to welcome everybody today we're uh the Planning Commission we're appointed by the County Commissioners and we meet twice monthly we serve as a local planning agency and we hold public hearings and transmit to the board of County Commissioners recommendations on comprehensive plan amendments Land Development code amendments rezonings and conditional use requests Planning Commission is the final decision-making body for special exceptions certain appeals variance requests and certain alternative standard requests however final decisions may be appealed to the board of County Commissioners anyone is in opposition to any Land Development code Amendment resoning conditional use or any item where the Planning Commission makes a recommendation to the board of County Commissioners it'll be important for you to attend the appropriate Board of County Commission meeting for those of you are not familiar with the format of our meetings we have three sections continuances consent and regular items we'll go through them one at a time and it's our custom to if there's been a request from the applicant or from the staff for continuance to grant their request unless there are unusual circumstances the consent items we will go through one at a time as we go through consent if there's something on consent you'd like to have heard uh please raise your hand we'll pull it from consent for to go into the regular items uh once we go through consent any items that remain on consent will be voted on at one time uh regular items will be gone through individually and and uh we'll have an opportunity for anyone to ask questions and to for the applicant to make a presentation applicants will have uh five minutes to make their presentation and anybody who has questions about that application we'll have three minutes to make their questions known and then the applicant will have an opportunity to come back up and try to respond appropriately to those questions um we also have uh time for public comment so if there's anybody here that uh is is here to speak about anything not on today's agenda please let us know and we'll have we'll listen to your uh concerns before we get started it's our policy that if somebody has requested a additional time uh at least 24 hours prior to this meeting in writing uh we typically would Grant some extra time if needed I don't think we have any requests do we Mr chair we don't have any requests okay do we have anybody online we don't have anyone signed up for WebEx for public comment or any items on the agenda okay thank you so before we start the meeting this is a good opportunity to remind you to please uh silent your phones so that they don't ring better do my own too um in the middle of a presentation so is there anybody here that does want to speak to something that's not on today's agenda if there is please raise your hand I don't see anyone okay so if you plan to give testimony today uh would you please stand and raise your right hand and be sworn do you swear affirm the testimony you're about to give is the truth so help you out all right thank you okay uh Liam I think we can begin good afternoon Liam Divine Planning Development economic growth Department um pc1 287 isest it January 23rd 202 at 1:30 p.m. okay so January 23rd 2025 25 at 130 yep okay is the applicant present was there anybody here to speak on this one okay PC2 pde 25786 it is a zoning Amendment companion to pc1 in the name of Lake Shore Boulevard LLC this is also a continuance request to January 23rd 2025 1:30 p.m. in Newport Richie all right again and the afcan is not present is there anyone here to speak on this one okay PC3 pde 25778 3 it is a zoning Amendment um in the name of dijan Gordana vit um and it is a Contin it's a request for continuance to a date uncertain okay is the applicant present anyone here to object okay um for pc4 um I do have some a little housekeeping um there was um an error on the memo for the recommended Committee Action it currently reads continue to December 12th 2024 Planning Commission meeting in 1:30 in Newport Richie it should say Dade City and then also in the background section it currently reads Planning Development economic growth department is requesting the item to be continued December 12th 2024 PC meeting 130 in Newport Richie it should say dat City so this item pc4 pd25 - 7785 it's a zoning Amendment um in the name of New York Avenue Business Park LLC Diagonal Road business park it is a continuance request to December 12th 2024 in date City okay the applicant presid anyone here to object okay that was our last um continu all right so do I hear a motion motion to proove continuance of pc1 and PC2 to January 23rd 25 can't believe we're saying that in Newport Richie PC3 to date uncertain and pc4 to December 1224 in Dade City second have a motion in second further discussion all in favor signify by saying I I oppos like sign motion carries okay pc5 pde 25784 it's a zoning amendment in the name of Rowan Road LLC B industrial it's a change in zoning from po2 professional office District to i1 light Industrial Park District it's located in the Southeast corner of the intersection of Rowan Road and Alderman Lane um containing approximately 1.8 Acres this is coming with a recommendation from approval from Planning Development staff Planning Development and economic growth Department okay is the applicant presid anyone here to object okay pc6 you're sitting as the local planning agency um pde 25- 0046 is a comprehensive plan Amendment C pass 243 Lake Park CPA providing for a comprehensive plan Amendment to the Future land use maps maps 2-15 and sheet number three um changing from Comm commercial to Res 6 residential six dwelling units per gross acre on approximately 2.57 Acres of real property located in the North northwest corner of the intersection of Hudson Avenue and Hicks Road this is coming with a recommendation that you find the proposed amendment consistent with the comprehensive plan and again you're sitting as the local planning agency Mr chair I had some questions for staff on us okay you want to pull it yes please okay if you don't mind us skipping out of order um AP9 on your agenda um is actually the companion mpud for that so I'll read that one into record as well AP9 pde 25779 a zoning amendment in the Lake Park mpud Hudson Avenue Land Company rezoning requests from C2 General commercial zoning district and MPD master plan unit development District to an mpud master plan unit development District to allow for the development of up to 100 single family detach dwellings and Associated infrastructure on approximately 57.4 Acres located in Northwest Pasco County directly north of Hudson Avenue and directly west of Hicks Road and this is coming with a recommendation for approval with conditions all right tap present so Mr chair I don't necessarily want this one pulled but I don't know that you can approve it un consent if you haven't approved the plan Amendment so okay we're going to have to just hear them together okay so I think you need to pull that one too okay so so um pc7 is already a regular item on your agenda um so I will go to ap8 pde 25- 7841 it's a zoning Amendment request in citral Alliance LLC a change in zoning from AC agriculture District in a C2 General commercial District to a AC agricultural district and a C2 General commercial District this is on the south side of Ridge Road approximately A4 Mile East of little road containing 9.92 acres and this is coming with a recommendation for approval all right is the applicant present anyone here to OB see no one you wish to leave it on consent yeah okay our um last consent item ap10 um is a development agreement in Hawks long leaf LLC to design permit construct roadway Widing in exchange for cash reimbursement um West pas on starky Boulevard South of Marsha Drive to the north of vanning Springs North Drive um the file number that I forgot to mention is Ted um teed 25-18 and this is coming with a recommendation for for approval all right applicant present anyone here to object okay um then all the consent items okay do I hear a motion motion to approve the consent agendas pc5 ap8 and ap10 second have a motion and a second any further discussion of the motion not all in favor signify by saying I I I oos like sign okay motion carries okay so so we pulled uh pc6 Mr chair I don't necessarily need a presentation on I just had sent staff some questions okay that I need an answered to um and the first of them relates to the discussion about the trail interconnects to the park which is think it's item three on page five of the agenda um the statement there's a statement there that there's the applicants proposing multiple connections to the park then the MP when I read the mpud it doesn't necessarily require those connections so there's a sort of an internal conflict between the two so if staff could address that all right thank you David Engel I'm the planning and economic development director for Pasco County relative to the question about about the trail interconnection a lack of consistency between the complant amendment and the actual mpud uh we have requested to have an interconnection with the neighborhood park that is adjacent to this property uh at first uh Parks is indicated that they didn't want to pursue an interconnection they had some issues with it but we've had some Dynamic discussions with the Parks and Recreation um Department uh at and commissioner Mariano was engaged with us and Parks is willing to allow an entertaining interconnection uh into the neighborhood park so it's our um proposal to have the LPA sign off on this project today but before it gets to the board um on 12 on 128 at the board's January meeting here in Newport Richie we will have revised and created that interconnection okay so what I'm hearing you say David is that you'll have to amend AP9 the MPD to the to make the interconnect more mandatory is that what I'm hearing yes okay so the bottom line is the complain amendment is correct then there will be in fact connections yes sir but the MPD will have to be modified to reflect that it will okay and is the applicant okay with this because the applicant's gone back and forth and for I feel bad for Barbara on this one because she's been whipsawed on this thing yes Barbara will I 63 27 Grand Boulevard Newport regie 34652 it's very easy because I have the set of documents that show the connections there's two of them and all the conditions that go with it and I have a set of documents that you see today that don't pursuant to a meeting that occurred this morning with commissioner Mariano and uh Keith Wy from natural resources and Parks Mr Engel myself the client that's here we're moving back into the set of documents that have the connections um that's the direction we're going I have to add a little bit of language talk about gating because it's important to the uh parks department that we actually have a gate so that um they don't get comments from the comments in the future um about people coming from the park into the neighborhood the and the neighborhood's upset about that so we're working through some of that language but we're going to go back and to where we were um a few weeks ago with the documents that even you looked at and the language you looked at regarding the connections and the and the offsite connection to uh their sidewalk within the Veterans Park to our North so so so I guess on that issue you're look when we get to AP9 you're looking for recommendation that we approve it with that modification we just talked about related to the interconnect to the park yes please we there is no meeting um in in December uh in Newport Richie and so we needed to make this meeting so we could do Newport Richie and then we we don't go to the board until it's back in Newport Richie and they're not back in Newport Richie until the 28th of January so we have time to to get all the language acceptable to everybody okay thank you and when Barbara refers to a gate it'll be a fob controlled gate so only the residents can get Ingress and egress to and from so the general public can Meander through their neighborhood they have to use the county sidewalk system okay good deal okay so then my other question related to the analysis the comp plan analysis under 1.8.7 and my question relates to I it's a potential conflict between staff's analysis and some statements that were made in the sheriff's comments related to kind of the tax generation analysis of these of this change um I'll let David Engle kind of weigh in on this but I think the memo I'll let David Engle speak first and then I'll give you my thoughts well well thank you Mr Goldstein so uh flu policy 1.8.6 is a holistic statement and a goal to look at the county at large and try to create more Revenue producing than Revenue consuming development and we do that all the time the question arose over a a piece of property that's in included in this parcel it's a commercial zone property at the moment we're proposing to uh and and asking the board to allow us to integrate that with the residential project before you the reason is is that the area is over entitled right now for C commercial we have a lot of existing commercial in that Hicks Road um Hudson Avenue intersection and because of the traffic congestion and unfortunately generating traffic that would cause a lot of Road improvements we've uh we agree with the applicant in this case so uh just from the standpoint of the big picture uh my office uh had contracted Tampa Bay Regional planning Council to produce a study for the Border County Commissioners about two years ago because we're under entitled for industrial in the in the county and over entitled for commercial and residential so we've embraced that we've been working with that as a a policy uh template and now that we're doing renewing the comp plan and rewriting it now we're going to produce a lot more uh Revenue generating development in the county so that that's that's why we we agreeable to eliminating the C2 and uh we are working forward to creating a more Revenue Centric plan for the county so David I I think the reason I brought this up is because the way this is worded in the memo the comparison is to the vacant land and I'm not sure that's the right comparison to be making on a plan Amendment because if you did that any plan Amendment would show more tax generation to me the comparison should be the existing flu now if your argument is that that c under the existing flu will is unlikely to develop because of the oversaturation and then therefore will never generate the tax revenue that was assumed that is a reasonable argument but that's not what the agenda memo says well that that's that's correct the agenda memo did not address that but from my experience and understanding of this area that property has been sitting vacant for years and um and it could have been commercially developed with the other Parcels in and around that neighborhood so the question is whether that would be developed after that neighborhood exists because there may be some more demand for commercial with the introduction of those extra res well at originally and it was approved and the approvals I think uh good till 2027 uh for 330 tow houses but because of changes of market and preference by the district commissioner we're doing 55 foot wide single family homes so we're actually reducing the intensity from 330 tow houses to 100 single family detached homes so um and there is plenty of commercial there the biggest issue was access to the par and to be clear I'm not trying to question what you're telling me verbally or right you're telling me verbally that the Market's oversaturated for commercial in this area and that by concentrating the commercial at Little Road you may actually have more tax generation at Little Road because you're concentrating the commercial at at little that's how I'm reading between the lines and what you're telling me verbally my only point is that your analysis in the memo doesn't say any of that well you're correct correct and to compound it there's a statement by the Sheriff's Office later that implies the opposite so that's why I'm want to get this reconciled well and I appreciate you doing that because you know frankly I just discovered all this stuff this morning I don't read every every condition of approval or agenda document to that detail but um you're right and we will clean it up okay those are all those were really all my questions thank you any other questions no thanks thank you David okay so we still have to um you still have to make a recommendation on pc6 and it sounds like Mr Engel got the message on how to fix the agenda memo if you want to so we should make motions on PC 6 and n well I would do them separately do P6 pc6 first yeah all right hear a motion to approve so moved well let me back up I'm sorry barbar did you want to say anything about pc6 it's okay okay okay I'll second have a motion in a second any further discussion of the motion all in favor signify by saying I I Mo like sign motion carries pc9 please do we have a motion so moves to be clear that's you're moving approval with the amended condition related to the trail interconnects to the port correct yes sir be negotiated by staff and the applicant after this meeting correct what David said I'll still second that okay and still second it yeah okay we have a motion and second further discussion not all in favor signify by saying I like any motion carries okay where does that leave us Roberto good afternoon chairman members of the plan commission Commissioners Berto real plan Development Department here for p7 it's a mining operating permit and conditional use Amendment request for km mine expansion this is a mining operating permit and a conditional use permit amendment to an existing uh sand and limes lime rock mine with no blasting in AC Agricultural and ar1 agricultural residential dis soning districts uh the Northwest uh Paso County on the south side of the county Line Road approximately 3,200 ft west of the Sun Coast containing about 149. Acres uh would you like to see a presentation yes okay uh was that a maybe or was that a yes yes yes we're having some technical difficulties right now but we'll pull up the PowerPoint in in a moment okay so in the meantime there is a scrier error that we identifi on condition number 38 uh It should read conditions um it should it should reference conditions 56 and 57 not 54 and 55 and I leave we have also received some exper Communications uh from some Commissioners uh Planning Commission and also uh I believe uh BCC Commissioners so those will be a part of the record they're not part of the packet uh in Civic clerk so the expertise will be forwarded to the clerk's office so can we just hold up one second the chair told me that he's going to have to recuse himself on this one so before we take any motions to receive in file if we can just get the chair to hand the gble to Mr gerardi to handle the rest of this [Laughter] item all right so we're back on the presentation so I I but you probably need to take a motion to receive and file this information rece and files or a second yeah yes second motion a second to receive and file all in favor I oppos motion carries thank you um so we have item p7 pd25 uh cu6 which is the operating permit and conditional use Amendment request for K&M Pasco uh we have the proposal for the conditional use Amendment and the operating permit uh this is future land use rest one zoning AC and AR the applican is requesting amending the uh current conditional use permit pd22 cu1 in the name of K&M pass 130 Holdings LLC and the mining operating permit uh again this is on the south side of the County Line Road uh it says here approximately 6,800 feet west of the Sun Coast Parkway so it it depends how you look at because the the mine land does extend on the southern uh on on the boundary of the the mine self but the actual Entrance Road is further to the west and and I can show you that uh again the site location is in the north west portion of the county and and there it is um is this the point so as you can see there's the there's the mine right there uh if you measure from here to here it's a lot closer than if you measure from the actual entrance uh so that's that's where the discrepancy is uh there's the SOS right here uh there's the county line road and that's where we're at and here's the area and the request also includes for adding uh this portion which is the the halmo property this is this is part of this amendment to add that portion of land right here uh which is wooded and this is the existing mine with a conditional use permit there again there's the entrance uh on this parcel right here and there's County Lon Road and the future land use uh rest uh rest one and the soning uh this is the sonning portion of it is AC and a portion is AR so this uh project is uh requesting adding the 20 acre on the western end of the so property M which is again the H parcel create a 100 foot buff from the h parcel and remove the 400 ft setback that was previously required along the existing mine modify the allowable quantities of excavated material which shall not exceed five uh 5.4 million approximately cubic Ys of sand and approximately 14 uh 3 is 14.4 million cubic yards of limestone do do I need to say the the full numbers or or am I okay with that no what okay good uh and this is accumulated for all previous and this proposed conditional use request also they are uh planning to excavate to a death of minus 00 fet navd88 and extend the terms of the mine until December 31st 2050 and update the side development plans to reflect the same and update the conditions of approval approval to reflect uh the same oops all right this is the concept plan again this is the existing uh portion and this is the new ham ham haml property being added and with that uh the recommend approval the conditional use Amendment and the operating permit as requested uh from the plan commission and the plan economic growth Department thank you Roberto thank you Roberto um Mr chairman and Planning Commission David Engel planning and economic development director I just wanted to alert you that staff went out and they they performed an on-site inspection of the mine took detailed photographs and Analysis of the surrounding land use and potential impacts and this is a wet mind so the typical dust and vibration that you would normally associated with the mine was not evident during operations thank you thank you David Rober you didn't one one more one more thing one more thing before you comment I apologize for that sir we we did receive a a uh a person who had concern uh she sent like three different emails and she asked us to uh letter let let let the commission know uh Vicky Brian uh six uh 186 to4 County Line Road uh she she was complaining about the uh vibrations uh shaking my home uh see like an air quit Tri here I I'm a senior and oxygen can't move around much I receive a letter that they want to dig deeper than permitted please I called the M pit on County Line Road two different times because they uh they was shaking my home vibrating like earthquake trimmers both uh times they had stopped I can leave in fear of uh to the unknown if sink holes open up as well I don't even know the county want to risk the unknown as well they won't give up they need to buy an airquake monitor put in myard to provide it and their expense that my yard does not shake or vibrate like Earth trimmers because it does and am enable to go to the meeting can you forward my email who in charge so my concern be heard please help me I enclose the pick of the letter thank you Vicky ran uh the second email the same person similar issue the manager came to my home today have a nice he's a nice person but I but it really don't stop the fear of me living next to Minds every day is really scary to the unknown if a sinkle opens up or even scary sinkle might open up just walk in my yard it takes it makes me feel sick mentally please uh put you in my spot and you I'm sure feel the same way as me please please put this in consideration and not let them expand dig deeper please let my voice be heard for consideration the meeting is November 21st at 1:30 at the West government building thank you bigy Ryan 18 18624 County Line Road and my address thank you and the third communication similar hi my name is Vicky Ryan I live at 18624 County Line Road I'm in oxygen I'm well I have had a hard time going to the bathroom I'm not able to make it uh to the meeting please consider my statement it is scary for me to live next to a mine I'm scared of The Gnome which affects me mentally they had shook my home for a couple days like earthquake Tremors uh and other times both times I call Pasco mines and they stop I wored just to walk in my yard is my yard going to open and so uh shallow one swallow one of us please put yourself in my my living situation as you be scar to I am I am against the mind to expand and dig deeper uh for the fear of my family and safy fear of the unknown wondering what mine had already done damage to the underground activities cause from them mining there is so many land has not won living why can they buy land in one of those areas we are so we are on Social Security we recently got mortgage payoff we don't want to sell Coit won't be enough and we don't want another mortgage payment toally crazy live here 30 years I only for neighbor get herir up uh and do his neighbor doesn't even care as long as he makes these millions please take my email to the core hearings for consideration and allow my email to be heard thank you Vicky bran uh with that said we went before you leave that um did she want us to her statement to received and filed or did it read uh she just said um take for consideration allow my email to be heard they're part of the agenda right it's part of the they're part of the agenda it's in the agenda I didn't realize it was already in there okay then my other question to you was did you tell her that she could attend virtually she said she couldn't attend because of her health concern if she was she aware that she could attend virtually I did not tell her that and I don't know that she was aware of that but I did go and pay visit with her and I told her that we were going to well bring this up when it goes to the board if she contacts you again if you could just let her know that that's an option for her to attend virtually that's one of the reasons we have virtual setup is somebody has a health condition they can't attend they can attend virtually okay we we'll do that if she's technologically able to yeah again as we pay this High visit uh the operation for K&M does not have a um does not have a vibrate vibratory operations so uh we we talk to km and they can expound more of what was what happened at the time um so anyways those that was the only comment the negative comment that we received can you thank you you didn't talk about the vision Road and I was confused in reading the memo about the vision Road where is that so the vision Road for this permit uh request will not be touched it'll remain at the same location and the vision Road it's uh it comes in on rby road which is right here uhhuh it it turns a little bit it goes north on the on their property right just uh east of the halmo property it goes back actually goes back and then he goes up can we pull up the uh the Pasco mapper please that way we make sure that we so iess I guess it's supposed to connect to Lindon Road right yes yeah drive it does come up make a jog go through the mine then make a jog back wait let me pull a Pasco that way we can make sure that we you I don't know that the what you're going to see on Pasco mapper is going to follow the exact alignment you're seeing on the plan but they do have the ability to a vision road to modify the alignment for the other side well so that's going to go to my question why can't we just route the vision Road around the mine rather than through it I will let the applicant uh talk about that it just it seems to me that even though it's a private mining operation it's a public resource we need the material for the construction of the development projects we approve new roadways we need Lime Rock we need sand and it just seems like we're wasting part of that property already to create a raised Road bed and slopes all the way down when we could use that material you know when this place is mined out someone else is going to want to open another mine somewhere else because I don't see the demand for sand or lime rock going anywhere anytime soon so why not maximize the use I thought maybe if it was critical that the road go straight or something but you're already showing me it goes and makes a turn comes over here makes a turn and comes back why not just turn it over to the edge of the property and go around the mine so that we could maximize the use of the mine and get get all the materials out before we have you know that that just extends the life of the mine I was under the impression it was going straight as well until I saw that so makes sense if it goes north just I think it does go straight till it gets to the halmo parcel but we'll let well that's why I couldn't tell when I looked at the plans how this was supposed to work it comes in from rby Road I sorry we can't see that from here and then uh and then it yogs to the West yeah it's on right it say roadway W Mr chairman the County engineer is here and can address these questions thank great yes thanks David yeah I see dotted line so so but that would tend to indicate that it would go along the western boundary of what you're calling is that the halmo parcel on the eastern boundary on the eastern boundary what would stop it from going further west and then coming up and joging back to the east you already got a change in alignment East and West anyways what would be the difference do you want to go ahead and address that sure good afternoon Nick uren County engineer you're suggesting that the road should just travel along the southern and then western boundary of the proposed mining operation to its northwest corner and then come back east on the Northern boundary yeah is there something that would stop us from doing that or candidly the alignment that I've that I've been presented with in our comp plan is a difficult alignment to construct for a through Road in its current alignment um what we've chosen to do with this application is to say that the least amount of work needed at this point in time to evaluate Alternatives is to just write the conditions to accommodate the future corridor as shown in the comp plan I I think the applicant would be amendable to saying if we can come up with an alternative the question operable question would be who is the we in that sentence because I don't want the applicant to say hey I want to move a road and I have to run around and do a route study for a road I I don't know what the my question isn't for the applicant the applicant hasn't been up yet but that my question would be for you would the county would your department be a minimal to doing that it just a real additional sure your question is would a realigned quarter with additional 90 Dee bends in it function similarly or provide a similar public purpose probably yes okay we already as you noted we already have two 90° bends in the corridor right and your suggestion would be to add two more so that we could shift it further west I I want to make the caveat that the two 90 degree bends make the road a less than ideal Corridor to construct and use already and adding more problems to it doesn't necessarily make it so substantially less useful but it it does make it a little more complicated to construct well does the county already have right away like south of the mine for the vision Road in other words I'm seeing all these streets that go up and down North and South and they all look like they're spaced roughly equidistant apart what would stop us from just moving the vision Road over to the next block instead of the one that it's at they all go to the same street to the South yeah and then you're back to 29 and then you're back to the just instead of one and to me it's a vision Road it' be one thing if we go out and bought and acquired right away and or if there were plans that have been produced already but and like I said in my line of thinking and that doesn't mean the rest of the board thinks like me but it just seems I'm just trying to figure out how can we just this is a type of project that no matter where you put it there's always going to be somebody that doesn't want it there right if mines sewage treatment plants landfills these are things that Society has needs for but are not desirable to be in anybody's backyard anywhere so they got to be somewhere so I'm trying to figure out how do we get the best use out of the property and extend its life because eventually you're going to have more of these that proliferate to which there will be objections so why not try to maximize the use of the resource you have but so I we probably need to let the applicant speak to this I don't know I think to them the big loss is probably just the the ability to mine wherever that road would be I I mean because in the all the birming around it well yes but I mean they really don't need to install any of that until they're done mining anyway so I mean it's to me the real loss to them is the loss of the ability to excavate where that road would be so I don't know that moving it to the edge of the property it may help I don't know I mean sure you got to you got a this with the plan showed you'd be digging a pit it'll have slopes and then you're going to have this road it's got slopes so you're losing all of that area which could potentially be mined one slope instead of two right yeah to go around the to go around the property like I said I would understand if we already had purchased a corridor and there were the right of way was in place and there were plans but right now it's a conceptual a line on a piece of paper somewhere that it just doesn't seem and and I know normally when we come in with MPS the applicants give the right away for the vision Road and they agree to construct portions of the vision Road and that's kind of the normal thing but it just seems in this case it's something that inhibits the public benefit to the mind and the Public's benefit is that we have these materials available for our own local roadway you know the C the County's the one of the biggest purchasers of these materials so I yeah I I still think we need to let the appli because they've created plans based on where they're showing it today I just don't know if they're going to be willing to move it again so but let's let's I have to move this down after Nick was speaking got me by a few inches Clark hobby hobby and hobby PA 109 North breast Street Tampa Florida have been sworn uh just let me speak just generally first just for a sec um so we've been operating this mine uh my client bat Kali and his partners for about 10 years now it was approved about 15 years ago and um we are I believe the only mine in the county that mines Limestone and lime rock that doesn't blast and so I think as a result of that and some other good neighbor policies we've had you really don't see a lot of Citizen objection uh Mr Byron had concerns that I believe were caused entirely about um couple of years ago we had to resurface our pave Drive coming in there and they used a VI vibratory compactor and I think it did some shaking a couple of days and I think that's what got her worked up but we have sound and vibration experts here and and we can answer any questions about that but I'm convinced that's not a real issue as to the uh the the is issue that Mr Moody's raising we would of course love to have the vision road mve to our western boundary instead of bisecting the mine it really does inhibit the amount of volume we can extract from the mine and it would make the mining process a lot more difficult however I did work this out with the County engineer in advance and I understand his concerns and I'm willing to honor what we agreed to I think what I would suggest is if maybe we add condition to the approval subject to Nick's approval that would say something like if the county through a route study or another approval of the County engineer determines that the road can be rerouted to the western boundary we can modify our mining plan and our conditions of approval on a non-substantial staff approved basis to move the vision Road over to the western boundary that would help us tremendously and hopefully that would leave uh the County engineer with what he needs to make sure that the road could get built if it ever is built that sound I appreciate your I want to try I mean we I shook hands with Nick so I don't want to pull the rug out from under them but it would help us tremendously to move the the road if it's possible yeah and that's just the way I see it too it just trying to get the maximum benefit out of something that I know is may or may not happen next right yeah could be a very long time out before that Vision Road happens for the commissioner to be clear I think what we're suggesting is if someone were to do a study in the future that determined that an alternative alignment was as beneficial to the public transportation system to the roadway Network as this Corridor then these folks would be allowed to utilize that alternative alignment once it is for established through the proper channels without having to go through a substantial administrative process to modify their approved plans I have no objection to that what's the Nick what's the process to do such a study a route study well and that's where I started down the path of the important question is who's the Wii doing it if the applicant really wanted to move the road they could have done the route study for us presented content for our consideration and then we could have interacted with that content as a part of this application but I don't want to be placed in a position of having to do that study for them in response to a mining application I understand your position but if they were to present you with a study then that's something you would give consideration to certainly okay we we have criteria for studies and if they wanted to perform a study compliant with the criteria and submit that for our consideration we would absolutely interact with them on that point that way you wouldn't be beholden to to when the county would decide to do this route study if they ever decide to do it in the future so if you feel like it helps your mining operation tremendously then you can have the impetus to go and and conduct that route study yourself that would be great from our perspective again you know I I I I shook hands with Nick and I want to honor what his concerns were and so as long as I'm doing that but we have a a possibility to make a better mouse trap somewhere down the road that would be great for our clients cuz we do know we lose a tremendous amount of volume leaving the road and the RightWay and the birming up against it so we would love to have the possibility to do that other than that we don't have an I know the chairman hasn't called for public uh comment but if there aren't any other comments I'll answer any questions you might have and I'm happy to step aside and ask if there are any other comments from the public anything else from up here yeah IAM I was gonna ask Richard go ahead this is there there has been no route study for this fion road has there correct no no there has not and that's why I so what happens in this scenario it's more or less like a marker line on the map and it's not really set at this point the one of the questions that Mr uh Moody raised it's really a valid one is to my knowledge the four roadways that are south of the mine don't have any public RightWay so if there's ever actually going to be a vision Road there there's going to have to be RightWay acquired by the count at some point so in my mind it's a fairly speculative road but I also understand the purpose of the highway Vision map is for the county to maintain its options in case these kinds of roads are needed over time so that answers the question of there is no timeline essentially for that for that road at at this time not to my knowledge I have not heard anything the only thing I've heard that's occurring is I believe Hernando county is pursuing uh putting in a signal at Lyon that is a major intersection on the north side of County Line Ro there's no question about that okay so just by way of background I think our vision Network that's adopted in our climate plan I believe is based on a buildout plan of like 2060 or 2065 yeah it's the lrtp 2065 plan so what they what they do for for everyone's benefit is they take all of the potential entitlements could be built out in the entire of the entirety of the county and they try to create a roadway Network that could distribute all the trips so there's probably a lot of roads that won't get built that are on the highway Vision map over over you know intermediate period of time for sure yeah would hate for it to hurt your mining operations off of something that might not materialize ever and if it does it might be 30 years down the road well we we'd love to be able to work with Nick and his team and maybe do our own route study and if we can move it that's great is a separate condition required for that or they just have that right No Matter What by the code well I think I think I think conditions are so specific that I think we probably need to add a the type of condition I was talking about Mr JY because right now they're very specifically telling me what the condition I have to leave along this particular location so I think we probably do need the ability to have a non-substantial modification approved at the staff level um that would allow the the RightWay and the uh to be removed at to the western boundary after conducting your own route study right would we need to draft that condition today with our approval or can that be something that devel before staff and the output into to drafted after this meeting like we did with the park condition earlier David and with Roberto and Nick on it very good okay Clark just real quick just to confirm for the record again so miss Bryan's comments are regarding two different times I'm looking at a letter specifically so you're you're saying on the record that that was the vibr compactors that you're using that is my understanding from my client that that was solely a result of us resurfacing the entry Road and by the way that where she lives is approximately 800 feet from the closest portion of the mine itself and I don't think there's been any allegation that the actual mining activity caused any vibration or Noise exceedances We interestingly we we had an update to our nors study done and and Jeff straw with geosonics is here uh about that in case there were any questions but we don't even without any noise attenuation through birming or trees or anything else we don't exceed the daytime or nighttime levels during daily operations during the day so it we don't go over the noise level so has there been any vibration monitoring down on the north side of that I'm not aware that we've had like a Perpetual monitoring up there I think this was a one-time event and I understand it probably scared her because those vibrators when they're when they're using uh them to compact roadway beds can you know be a little bit disconcerting but we've been out to meet with her several times now we have a good on-site mind manager and I'm confident it won't happen again okay my knowledge drag lines don't really create vibration no absolutely not but I'm just saying just kind of head off the head off the issue potentially in the in the you said it's a drag line operation yeah I that's I don't I don't believe down I don't believe the drag line grading the vibration I don't I don't see that happen but it's a it is a drag line mine right right okay all right thank you very much thank you so can I ask Nick another question J Nick he has a question for Nick I think okay the question has to do with the a route study when we're looking at a as Clark referred to at a marker line on a map what level of information is needed to justify one route over another what are the like the considerations that go into that generally speaking you want to minimize adverse impacts and ensure that the selected alternative for the corridor meets the functional purpose of the corridor so when you know we were we were just speaking on the side if if the alternative alignments are completely contained within the mining operations boundary but but relegated to its perimeter and they get back to the alignment in our comp plan without prior to going off site then that becomes a very simple answer there's only one impacted part property they like the alternative better we find that the alternative is compliant with our expectations for the corridor it gets to be a very easy yes when the question starts to involve adjacent parcels and increasing impacts to some at while decreasing impacts to others that's when we get into more stringent criteria for the evaluation of the impacts and the benefits of the Alternatives just trying to get a feel for it all right thank you very good thank you Nick all right is there anybody uh here to give public comment on this item okay seeing none anything El from up here or motion what item are we this p7 p7 I move approval of p7 with the condition uh modification to the condition that we discussed that would allow for the future study uh route study and a non-substantial modific substantial modification correct y I would second that right is a motion a second any further discussion all in favor I I oppose motion carries yeah let the record the very good and also I didn't vote either because it's not aard residential project because he's not interested he doesn't think there's going to be any kids coming out of the M I don't think so not mining any children might even though they are digging it's not going to affect schools huh let the record reflect that I'm uh proudly handling this gavel back to Chairman [Laughter] gray put the hammer down literally yeah Mr Jeremy can we take a quick five minute break before the sheriff speaks because take a 5 minute recess 5 minute break [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] a [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] e shff you ready good good to go yes we're good to I appreciate there it is very good so um chriso 8661 citizens Drive I didn't make sure I get the right address um I want to thank you all very much I I know a few of you had saw the budget presentation uh back in the spring and so you're trying to get me here and um apologize conflicts but you know I appreciate the invitation uh so give you a little bit of background what's going on with you know how growth impacts us what we see um you know we have a quick PowerPoint presentation to go through uh talk about some of the things with residential growth and I will always admit you know I'm not anti-g growth um I'm always about planning that to me is the biggest thing is plan plan plan that's what we do storm comes that's how we plan out the Sheriff's Office operation we're constantly planning planning planning and so as you go through the planning process there's things that you know we hope we can talk about today that would assist you all uh for questions and answers so we are involved in the prea process um one of the things you know we talk about so we are seeing a reduction in property crime which is good but the big thing for us is when you do approve residential property um you know plans you know things that we put in the prea process that are not binding we would hope that you all would fulfill and say look we need these things uh you know gates gates make a big difference I can tell you people come from out of this County to lift door handles in this County the problem is people leave their doors unlocked uh people leave guns in their car and we've caught people in the past on uh jail calls say to each other hey if you go to this neighborhood Target Rich environment that's where you should go you get guns you get this like they tell people this is the neighbors you should go so the more gates you put up the more tag readers out there the more it assists us moving forward the other one too is even not just when any apartment complex is built or residential communities built but even during the process when developers are building that is critical for us I can't tell you how many calls we get because there is a developer who's building a major project but literally every night something's being stolen literally every night it's washers gone dryers gone this gone and you know it adds up for us because even though we know take a report and everything but we want to catch these people because you know unfortunately it ends up you know it keeps getting passed on to the consumer so those things do add up and services calls for services keep piling up on us the one thing we also look at is the ratio and everything we put up there is through FDLE a lot of the numbers but you know if a th000 units are going to go through the process you know US Census says that for a th000 units there's going to be 2.4 people per unit so we would then say okay the average what the national average is supposed to be is two deputies per thousand so that's what we'll come back in the pre-approval hey this is just so the County Commission understands it's about 2,000 I mean two deputies for a th000 residents so why does this impact Us in Pasco County we are 63rd out of 67 deputies per thousand that's the Florida Department of Law Enforcement numbers 63rd out of 67 deputies per thousand and I'll explain a little bit further how it shows towards other counties the um part of it too is we know that you know we've heard from people say well you know you may approve 1,000 units but that doesn't mean the developer is going to you know build 1,000 units maybe you only build 500 but I'll show you we can't just sit there and wait until the certificates are given out and CER certificate oceny is there I'll show you what we call lag time and if you just wait till that moment where okay that person moved in now we're going to start giving you money for deputies there's at least a 2.8 a two years eight months process to hire somebody we just don't go off Street and say hey this is great we're going to go hire five people what's good original little let's just pick five people up that's not how we do things we can't do things that way so we have to base things off of when the numbers come in and say there's a thousand that got approved we have to start planning off of that so I'm going to start going through some of these um slides and please questions as we go along please let me know and we'll push forward so pasal Sheriff's Office we served the seventh largest population in the state of Florida out of 67 so this is where it's pretty staggering when you see the numbers so Pasco County 545,000 that's the sheriff's office we believe that the cities are roughly 8% of the population we are first responder and we have jurisdiction throughout the entire County including the cities but we're we're jurisdiction over first responding to about 92% but look at panel's County so when you look at penel County it's roughly 300 and I need glasses 395,000 people so 395,000 because you have to take in consideration they have St Petersburg Tarpon Springs clearw Largo we can keep going through they have municipalities we have Newport Richie Port Richie date City and uper Hills and I will stand here and I will be the I'll cheerlead for them to Annex as much as they want keep annexing because the more they Annex the more they have to keep highering dep you know officers and you know it's less pressure on the sheriff's office so I'm a big fan of them annexing areas and so that's where you know for us standpoint you know we see other comparing counties but we're up there with the highest ones but I go back to it we're 63 out of 67 deputies per thousand this is just shows the population the disparity and growth So within Pasco County the Top Line shows our population growth the bottom line shows the deputy growth that difference keeps growing that's the issue we're talking about our ratio of deputies per thousand keeps dropping because the population growth is growing so fast we just can't keep up with the number of deputies we were in 2019 1.08 deputies per thousand in 2022 or one Deputy per thousand you said the ideal ratio is two two that's that's the ideal that everybody tries to strive for we're just striving for 1.3 um I I could show you numbers if we get 1.3 would it be you know equivalent if we were equivalent to pelis County we'd have over 4 499 more deputies if we were equivalent to penel County penel County's law enforcement budget is $450 million That's not including the ja order Hope Center ours is roughly 170 million so that's right that's where you show the discrepancies it also goes back to the fact that you know I saw was it Ern young did a study within Pasco County that 85% of our Revenue that I mean 85% of tax B 85% of our tax base is based off a residential uh I can I I can't imagine what a what their healthy ratio is but you know from a county standpoint when we're basing our whole economy off 85% for residential we're showing that you know we need to start diversifying more into the business into the industry commercial we need to start figuring out different ways because here's the other side of it everything there's always a pattern in life history always repeats itself we're going to have another Cal there will be a downturn some point sometimes there will be a downturn when it's Bas off for residential again we're going to be hurting and that's the type of things that you know we look at from the Sheriff's Office standpoint saying keep planning ahead what are we looking at and that we saw that 85% was resident based taxes that's not good the other part too is the reason why I say that is the US Department of Agriculture has a study out there for every $1 that comes in for residential it actually costs the county a13 so we may get a dollar residential but it costs us a dollar3 for services so we're losing 13 cents on every dollar residential that is a major issue that we're looking at saying you know we need we need a little bit more diversity in the county but those are things that are going to keep pushing that we are concerned about so this is the lag time so somebody moves into Pasco County say somebody actually they move into an apartment they mo well par but they move into a new townhouse in 2024 by the time they actually pay their taxes it's not until January of 2025 so then in January 2025 pays the taxes it gets collected it goes to the County Commission the County Commission says in October 2025 okay Sheriff's Office here's your money start hiring people for deputies okay great thank you then by the time we actually get them higher trained you know go through the entire process you're looking at October of 2026 so between February 202024 and October of 2026 you're looking at you know over 2 years and eight months of basically we're providing services and we don't have enough deputies that's why you keep seeing that discrepancy and the amount of deputies per thousand ratio this is the other thing too and I said before property crimes are going down absolutely and you know kudos to our deputies God has blessed us with a phenomenal team but what doesn't get captured in the crime numbers are the threats so these are School threats over the past several years last year we had 340 340 School threats let me I'll just very briefly tell you what happens in a school threat I'll give you an example golf middle school golf middle school in one week I think had three four possibly five I don't know if it was that many but had four in one week we get a school threat at at golf middle we have to send a whole bunch of deputies where they're all they're running lights and Sirens we send several dogs because we're searching to school looking for guns because they said oh somebody had a somebody said they had a backpack had a gun in the backpack we are sending the calvary we go out there there could be 20 30 deputies that were pulling off calls we're pulling from all over the place I remember I was there I was at golf middle school as that was going on another call came in at Sunlake and so now we're pulling deputies from all over the county trying to get now we have two locations School threats going on and basically all the other calls for service which I'll show starts add pying up but this is the issue that we deal with this is not coming it's not you know it's not listed as oh there's a you know we arrested somebody we barely can make arrest because so many of these crimes are just comes through an anonymous tip line kids know they know the process how to get through but these are the things that keep going on and let me tell you so far this year we're trending 190 School threats it's it went through the roof the only reason that 190 is 190 is because we basically they had a month off from school with hurricanes so when you take all those hurricane days if you didn't have that that number would be almost matching a full year last year so that's what I just keep saying these are things that you know this is law enforcement this is what we deal with this is not even talking about all the mental health issues that we're dealing with the people that run away the people that are uh attempting to commit suicide those are things that we're consistently getting called to so these are our zones these zones haven't you know it's one basically one Deputy per Zone our population in Yankee 2 has grown tremendously Zulu 4 I and so I will tell you early 2013 2014 I sat with each other our commissioners at the time when Zulu 4 used to be cow pastures and I said look you know growth is coming we have to plan for growth this is no different than what the schools have to deal with I mean we have to deal with growth well unfortunately growth came but the support for Public Safety didn't follow or match it so that's the issue that we're dealing with right now is the fact that we're just outnumbered out there and you're dealing with amount of growth now I know somebody will say well why don't you just make one of the ID units in Holiday area why don't you you know increase that but then you make Yankee 2 smaller those items zones never it's not like people left and migrated out a holiday to go there's still population growth there so these are the type of things we're facing I we now we're trying to evaluate it but until we can get a subst a substantial amount of more deputies we're not going to be able to push forward so that's the one thing that we're dealing with when you look at these zones and I can tell you the Yankee zones out in Wesley Chapel it's taking almost twice as long to travel to calls for service there than it is in uh in the Zulu zones or Ida zones and the reason why they literally sit in traffic the whole time unless they have to go run lights and Sirens which still can take 20 minutes it's the traffic over there is absolutely tremendous so this is what I was just talking about where calls for service can stack up so this is a Wednesday afternoon this is the one that we provided the Commissioners and that's why I provide you the same exact one this is February 28th this is 2:40 in the afternoon with all the calls going on we're still holding 32 calls we're holding at the time you know mental health calls were going on domestics were going on in the middle of the afternoon 32 calls were holding and so yes we do try to um put our deputies out in certain hours to make sure that you know hey when the higher volume comes in but this is 2:40 in the afternoon this isn't 5 six o'clock at night this is right in the middle of midday so that's the very quick short presentation the only thing I I request is that when the pre-approval process comes through and you see recommendations for the Sheriff's Office to say hey look security Fe features Gates cameras those type of things please strongly recommend them um because that does make a difference it does make a difference in the morning when deputies get the call and they say oh we had this one street that got hit by 15 cars got hit that's 15 reports and yes we use um desk officers as much as we can but there's a lot of times we do have to send deputies out to scenes and these are these take a lot of our workload up so so do you regularly make such suggestions on because we get these staff meor memorandums for each of these cases and I have never seen anything in there I've seen your standard statement that you don't oppose development and you talk about the lag time for hiring deputies and the need but I've never never once seen a recommendation for Gates or cameras or I can tell you why there's a disconnect here because I think the sheriff is talking about a preop on a site plan which typically you you're not seeing the site plan approvals come you're seeing a zoning approval you're seeing the plan amendments you're seeing the the also the macro level stage the types of comments the sheriff's talking about are you know Gates security cameras securing the site that's typically would be something you'd see at a preapp for a site plan yeah but I do preapps for site plans and I can't ever recall and I don't know I'll ask Jane I can't ever recall anybody from the sheriff's department being in there and commenting so I can bring forward Colonel Sor so Colonel Sor I'm not saying you don't I'm no no because he he used to do the process I'll let Colonel sbor come up um because he used to do them and now it's um major ireri but no no I I I get in so I'll let the colonel explain when when he was on there what he was doing colon Sor on behalf of the sheriff's office so um the the form that you're talking about uh that's where they're contained um we typically don't uh make those Sim recommendations on larger scale Residential Properties we focus primarily on the multif family and the town home properties where there's a centralized Association of some sort uh we ask that they be gated we ask that there be outdoor lighting we ask for the lprs and so is this happening at the site plan process or that because I mean I do site plan preapps and so approvals and I've never seen never seen it come through in one of the zonings certainly when they send it out to all the various entities for for commentary um and it goes into uh I may pronounce it wrong a Kella or Cella which whichever system that it uses we don't have direct access into a Cella we send that uh that response that has that same generic response if you get to the bottom paragraph of that because we don't we don't do a form you know it's a form letter that then gets filled in and you should have seen on that same letter the math that the sheriff is talking about where this will provide you know 700 new residential units which is going to equate to 700 x 2.4 um where we'll have to account for that in future buds or equates to this number of Deputy sheriffs right I see that statement a lot in the in the resoning reports but I've never seen any specific things like that for the gates or the Cameron that interests me and you know is it appropriate to get those at the Zone well I was seen I was actually going to come up with a better suggestion which is why don't we put these in the code I mean if if you're having to recur if you're having to make this comment on almost every application correct that you want Gates security cameras to me the better place to deal with that would just put it in our Land Development code and then staff will just apply it as part of our Land Development code it's not it's not just on a Case by question is the legality that would help us tremendously because the meetings that Mr Moody is talking about I used to attend virtually um it it came to a point where uh particularly on the days that they're scheduled it take it it was taking up a large portion of my day and uh and the the times that I attended those meetings uh in uh digitally right personally but digitally um and I made those recommendations to the developer the one and only question that would get asked after all of my recommendations wasn't to me but about me and it was are those binding recommendations or are those just like hey you guys would prefer it I said well those are those are preferences and I would try and make the case that um Not only would building that Community keep uh help the sheriff's office but it would make your community more desirable for the folks that are going to live there and they said okay and and that became very obvious that since it was a non-binding recommendation that nobody really cared what I had to say and so attending those at at at Great cost during my day when I had other things to do became a fous Endeavor so we started including those I think what needs to happen is you probably need to get with our planning department um Mr Engle sitting right there um and coordinate we have an ordinance development team that works on making changes to Our Land Development code and then those changes to land vment code make their way to this body yep and then they make a recommendation to the board so but it all starts with working with staff to get those those requirements into the Land Development code you also mentioned wanting better security security of the sites while they're under construction that's something we could also address in the land evelopment code so it seems to me rather than just trying to you attending all these meetings and making nonbinding suggestions if you want some meaningful impact let's get it in the code and yeah that sounds fantastic to me Mr Goldstein I I don't think that we have any issue working forward on that at all um that would be a a tremendous um level of efficiency that we've yet to achieve and and so I we want to do everything we can to help the other question David I have yeah I would let me just make one cave out though so I I do think we can work on a lot of what you suggested I will say though that there are probably some roadways in the county that's our planning staff are not going to want to be gated you know there's certain collectors and arterials that that certainly function for through traffic that we do can't I so for clarity we actually didn't part of the reason Mr Moody probably hasn't seen them is we don't we don't even really we didn't we never really added those recommendations to um your residentials so your conon and your places like that we're we're we were largely focused on the multif family um here for multif family entitlements the tow houses and the apartment and wonder so we understand that when you've got those residential communities and folks that are coming off of main roads and and places like the meal points where you have a metal Point Boulevard that passes all the way through it you're not going to want to put um unnecessary um blockades to to regular traffic um so totally agree with everything you're saying and don't have any issue with that at all I'm sorry Mr M go ahead so I'm hearing the need for being able to get the deputies hired trained the the Staffing when it comes to impact fees we charge a fire combat fee so the question that I have is typically impact fees are applied for things that bring new capacity not General operation and maintenance the question is can an impact fee be developed for the sheriff I mean if you like you said th units and that's going to have 2.4 people per unit and he needs two more deputies if we want development to pay for itself is it appropriate to assess an impact fee for the sheriff but I don't then this goes to my question about om andm versus new capacity I'm trying to figure out how well I was ask going to ask the sheriff a question related to that which is when he puts a new Deputy on the road how much of that cost of that new Deputy is salary versus equipment in other words and one time cost because the one time Capital cost to to fund the car the police vehicle the equipment the guns the the the the uniforms those can all be funded with impact fees um what about one time cost like training and no it's got to be a capital cost it's got to be a fixed cost okay same kind of things that we fund with a penny for Pasco it's got to be a fixed Capital cost so to answer your question we don't have a currently have a law enforcement impact fee we do have a fire rescue impact fee but even the fire rescue impact fee can only fund Capital that's so that's what that's the nature of the question if there were if if the board were to adopt a law enforcement impact fee what could those monies be used for so it would be it would be Capital so now interestingly I know the sheriff doesn't run the jail anymore but you could actually use it to expan your jail as well so um so there wasn't the reason I know all this is cuz this probably predates the sheriff but back in 2004 we developed the fire rescue impact fee there was going to be a law enforcement impact fee that was going to fund the very cost that I just talked about Capital cost for the sheriff use it to expand the jail I don't want to go into all the various reasons why it didn't happen but it just didn't happen and so unfortunately because it didn't we could have been collecting revenues since 2004 that could have been used for expanding the jail used for some of the sheriff's Capital cost is not going to fund his salaries but at Le it but if you had an impact fee it might at least help you know it's less money that youd have to worry about in term right so what I'm getting at is so we have growth we get new apartment units we get new single family detached that's ADV valorum Revenue a portion of which goes to his Department to fund salaries and that but impact fees can be used for these Capital costs and that's what I'm trying to figure out how much of that is actually like I said a percentage so I mean to me the best model in our county is what we do for fire rescue okay because fire rescue has an impact fee to cover its capital costs and then it has an mstu to deal with all of its operational costs salaries now I know the board has had some discussions with the sheriff about potentially doing an mstu for law enforcement um but I think the logical combination with that would be an impact fee so that the taxpayers are not funding the entire cost of growth right well the I mean the whole theory behind the impact fees is that growth has to pay development has to pay for itself so it the development is spurring the need for the additional deputies the additional equipment it would seem to me that that might be appropriate so so Sheriff along this line of speaking what percentage of that 2.8 years um would you say is attributed so of all the cost of that Deputy over the 2.8 years right what percentage of that is fixed Capital cost and what percentage is salary so I can give you General General salary and benefits uh is roughly 85% of our budget so out of that the you know basically you're looking at but within that first few years though it's front loed with so your vehicles your vehicle is basically your first like your vehicle and your equipment but this all gets a this gets replaced over time anyway your vehicle gets replaced after a couple years so where the money would probably go towards with an impact fee is uh technology so we try to utilize technology as much as possible and so that's why if that would you know under law if we were able to use it for technology that that is where we would get our biggest B for our buck because then we can shift the money that we're spending on technology uh in our in our general budget towards other operating uh expenses so yeah the one thing about the mstu and one thing Mr GOI made made a good point this is and I'll tell you I say this publicly to the Commissioners too this is my concern of creating a mstu right away for the Sheriff's Office this is our budget right now where we are and and look I go back to I told the county commissioner I had a meeting with one of our commissioners on Friday I said look I get it there's no money anywhere when 85% of our when 85% of the money coming into Pasco County is from residential and we're losing 19 cents on every dollar from a business standpoint that's we're we're all losing so I get it if the commission had the money like we do they do in pelis or Hillsboro and you had ports and airports and hotels on the beaches all this you're bringing that tax revenue in it's much different it's not that way in Pasco we're a heavily residential community and we're losing 19 cents on a dollar my concern of an mstu is if we are at this this is where we're at now this is where we need to be and you're going to try to create this with an mstu right away that will probably be one of the largest increases in taxes in Pas school history that we would ever see so my thing is we would have to prioritize what the needs are first try to bring up the budget for the sheriff's office before you go to the MST you because if not you're just going to create a all you're doing is filling that Gap with the mstu which in today's day and the the you know when people are struggling right now that would be one of the largest tax increases ever in this County and I would be I would say no until we get until we start prioritizing some things I think that would not work out well but going back to the impact fee discussion it seems like a logical First Step because even if it's only 15% of your costs it's 15% of the costs that are not being passed on the msdu to the taxpayers so I mean and I I I think it's probably more than that in the first two 2.8 years over time it becomes 85% so idea so I mean fire rescue is right in the middle of doing an impact Fe study they have a consultant working on it have you had any is it possible you could have a starter dialogue with M with JJ and absolutely love be part of about getting a study done for law enforcement for the impact fee absolutely we'd love to be a part of that conversation there's a lot that you know especially us and fire rescue are trying to do together now and so this would help us and well I think it might also help the county because we have a jail that at some point is going to have to be expanded again and if we're not accumulating Revenue um I don't worry I lived there for 12 years I know i' I've been crying that River for a long time I don't have to cry anymore yeah so I'm just saying you're one of the few people that live there voluntarily for 12 years I I live that one are there try be careful how I phrase this question but are when it comes to residential and non-residential development are there different types that demand more or less of your resource I think you were inferring that the non-residential probably doesn't need as much Sheriff's Department resources so for instance is there any difference between single family detached in town homes or versus Apartments so it's a great question it's funny because I go to I go to presentations and I hear people just talk about the county in general like I'm sick of seeing car washes and storage units I'm like I love them I said they pay taxes and calls L I drive by all the time like these are great at 2 o'clock in the morning they're not they're not saying Sheriff's Office you know we got this fight in progress It's like there's nobody there um so the the answer is it depends on the population so we go to million dooll single family houses with domestic disputes we go to apartment comp complexes that have section eights with domestic disputes the only difference is the the density so if the density is very tight yeah we're going to go there more often because there's more people there so then so then the density the number of deputies you need per capita it's just a matter of okay if we're going to approve a large multifam development it's just that you need more deputies to cover that additional density yes sir okay well can I add to that conversation though is that you also have to look to fully answer your question you also have to look at the type of residential in terms of what is its tax generation because part of what the sheriff is bringing up is the loss of tax revenue on residential there are certain forms of residential that because of Homestead exemptions because I mean they're there's probably in in general paying us less taxes than what they're consuming in services so there are you know for example you get a mixed use residential project where it's got commercial on the bottom residential on top it's probably generating more taxes and it's consuming and services because the whole building is generating substantial tax revenue that may not be the case for a single family standard single family home that's paying Homestead getting homestead exemption and everything else so you to me when you're looking I understand the sheriff's looking a density but you also have to look at what is the tax generation of that unit and there are some forms of residential that are generating more taxes to the county than others not because of anything the county created because the state legislature has created certain exemptions for certain types of residential that they don't create for other types of residential and so it affects our our tax revenue yeah that was that was a couple of things I was going to bring up because you have to the dollar 13 of cost per dollar worth of tax revenue brought in that's kind of an average across all residential so when we're trying to do planning we probably would want to see what that data looks like for a single family development versus a town home versus a multi CO2 yeah yeah and then the other thing too is um because you mentioned 2.4 residents per unit uh that that calculation will vary as well across those different property types so it may be a different number in single family versus town home and multif family so that would be something else that we'd have to take consider and when you figure those calculations out you know the taxes may be better but the the need for the deputies may be better um may be larger as well so it might wash no that's that so that number we got from the US Census is a 2.4 I could tell you go into houses there's a lot more families that are living together in houses than 2.4 you're getting multigenerational that are kids are not moving out of their houses grandparents are moving in and you can go into two families living in the same house that's data part of the Bieber study that UF does in terms of the avalor P generation no the yeah yeah the the res number of people per dwelling unit we have data on residents per dwelling unit because we do it for impact fee purposes so bu property type yes um and I don't have in front of me I mean Richard you remember what you're yeah but I mean it it's a little bit different because we have element or you know school age kids as far as adults but it's not ex you know cuz like for for single family homes for an elementary kid it's 018 mrle do you remember like on average what our occupancy is per home or residents per home 2.54 that's pretty close off our number a little bit but that's across all dwelling unit types correct that's according to the standards in the uh American Community survey 20 22 so is there a variation between uh that number between dwelling unit types right multif family obvious has less per household than single family but the blend is 2.54 so that's why I'm saying it would be good to know the breakdown of those things when it comes to trying to figure out the impact on law enforcement going forward we're doing that now we're revising our comprehensive plan and it would be a great time to entertain a discussion with the Sheriff's Office okay no and I appreciate that it's I give you all credit because I think it's been 30 years since that's been updated so we appreciate that's great that it's going to be updated we'd love to be a part of it we told the commission we want to be a part of it because that is a big part the one thing too is also just to keep in mind and I honestly appreciate you all this is the first time that's ever come up to bring us involved with the impact fees so thank you all very much um we want to be involved in that um we we need bodies like for fire department they need fir houses that's the big thing for them they because they stay there for us we're constantly on the street patrolling it's a different model so that's what to say but if we can use use that impact fee for other like technology Aviation drone those type of things that are making us more efficient then we'll be you know the more efficient we are the better we can hopefully get deputies to caller service handles caller service and um you know I'm sure that's going to depend on what the statute allows for that the the last question I had I'm going to I would say in general yeah I think you can I think if it's a capital cost with their technology I mean I can tell you libraries uses it for books so if libraries use it for books you I think we can find a way that you could use it for technology so the last question I had and and like I said I'll shut up and this is probably better to David as well so do we have data because I would assume the empirical data is there do we have data on the average number of units that are have been built over time versus what was entitled we don't have that data across the county but I'll give you an example vop is running at a 60% % of entitlement run rate right now and we use that as a benchmark because it's similar to the muds that we're approving because that would be something I mean the data has got to be there if we look back historically now obviously it's just a prediction but that could be helpful as well because then we can look at you know okay if we know that there's a 60% flowr rate on whatever we approve in entitlements then that can help us on those calculations as well and and help the sheriff's office so that he can better plan for when he needs the the deputies but you know we've been hopefully we're going to get to a more normalized Market I think the post covid growth when we saw a rapid increase in population these people moved down from the northern states and all into our air that caused this rapid population explosion but we don't have that same phenomena going on there's still growth going on but we don't have the the pandemic push that was going on doesn't mean we shouldn't adopt best practices though no no I agree but hopefully he can get some data so that in a more normalized market then it helps him plan for when he needs these resources you know the human resources and the equipment available I would have think that flow through shouldn't matter what the market looks like it's probably a you know sheriff in the 80s and 90s um there are a lot of people from all over the world buying properties here homes residences and they come and spend you know six or eight weeks here and then use it like an Airbnb the rest of the time and of course they don't get homestead exemption the county and their wisdom got rid of that ability to do that and of course now we've reverted I think more to an economy based upon everybody having Homestead exemption or what I call low income rental and uh you know and I think that has had a dramatic negative impact on our economy because not only do you um decrease the number of homes that are paying full boat on the on the value of their home but you also tend to depress the amount of people that are coming in for holidays spending money have money to spend and you know and when we we had properties like that the owners had to maintain their property or otherwise it could it wouldn't rent because there were people coming here and paying $1,000 a week to stay in a home with a pool and that'd be nice and uh now there's no justification to do that they just let the Home Run go to seed you know and it it's it falls down to the lowest common denominator so I think the county did a very bad thing when they got rid of the ability to do those short-term rentals um properties were better maintained values remained up and you were getting a higher uh volume of people with money to spend and which is resulted in more revenue for the sheriff's department and for everybody so I mean I think if we look that right now the percentage of homes in Pasco that are occupied and have homestead exemption I think would be dramatically more than were in the 80s and 90s and and I think that's going to that will no no doubt create a loss of Revenue and it's interesting as you're saying thinking we're in another seismic shift because what we're going to see west of 19 uh because of these two storms is going to be a seismic shift in Pasco County and it'll be interesting to see which way it starts moving towards but yeah it's it's it's devastating what happened but that's what you said that that was a seismic shift and we're about to enter a new one and and that's what I'm just talking about is going to have an impact on that because if I mean a lot of those homes are you know they're going to fall under the 50% rule where you know if the value of the home to replace it or rebuild it is more than 50% you have to knock it down and start all over again so what do you end up with you end up with somebody that had a $200,000 mortgage on their home and the home is no longer there so all I really have is a lot to sell so the only people you're going to sell it to to make anything out of it are people that have enough money to come in and actually buy the lot pay off the mortgage and build a new home and build it much nicer much higher and much and create much more tax value you or if you don't do something to help to to to encourage those type of people to come here you can end up with a vacant lot and again no no tax revenue right so you know I think the county needs to really think about how they're going to address those issues because people are going to be devastated if they can't afford to rebuild their home and there's going to be a lot of those you know because unfortunately most people do have mortgages MH and you know if your home's gone you don't have nothing you have nothing to fall back on you still have to pay off your mortgage and so you know I think these These are the kind of things that people need to think about and address before they um do something like the county did before and just heart blanch get rid of people that that are willing to come here and spend their money have a second home on the water a nice one and it could make a huge difference in the economy you're right you're exactly right on that could a law enforcement impact fee be zoned like we do Mobility fee rates that there's different rates throughout the county in other words so for instance the sheriff's probably not seeing rapid growth in holiday in Hudson well it is in Hudson now but he's seeing a lot of rapid growth in Wesley Chapel and so that impact fee money can be directed for deputies in that particular what was it your can I mean you could do it by zones but my only slight concern with that is that Sheriff's right they don't they don't have fixed locations like fire rescue does I mean they when you put a police car on the road it's traveling all over the county and so um or a gun or or a uniform or our jails serves the whole County I mean so I it it's not confined to it's it's going to be hard to say that the payment of a fee for his police cars don't benefit the whole County I mean because typically you do those zones when there's a benefit the reason Mobility fee does it is because typically people tend to drive in the same area of the county when they live there I'm not sure that his infrastructure costs you know if he buys a drone it's probably used countywide I I don't think he's going to limit it to just you know one piece of the county so um it can be done but for that particular type of infrastructure my problem that recommendation would be that they not do that because it unduly restricts where he can spend his money I don't want to tell the sheriff you can only use your drone in Wesley Chapel I I just don't think that's going to work no us it my neighborhood for good reason actually future and said we're on the we're ahead of the curve but we actually come up with plans that you know with the drones you there's certain locations you can actually fly ahead of the call for service figure out what's going on but you know and then basically make it safer for the citizens make it safer for the deputies and what we're also doing is a long run trying to reduce helicopter costs the helicopter flights cost extreme amount of money compared to drones and so that's something as we move over time there are there are certain uses for the for the helicopters you know whether it's repelling down pulling somebody out of of the flooded situation for tactical situations or for Pursuit um there are times but majority of the time we can use a drone and those those type of things for an impact fee to be used towards that that makes us more efficient we save on gas dollars on a helicopter and then we can roll that back into deputies and by the way even fire rescue which is more location specific because they're sometimes responding to calls throughout the count County you know if they get a large fire they're calling in multiple stations so even though even that we don't do it by by geography well we appreciate being involved in the impact Fe study that great suggestion thank you very much and code thing yeah I think you should talk to David Engles team about getting some of that codified so that I you know I don't want to see you have to send somebody to every pre meeting and make a suggestion every time that isn't even being followed so already approached the uh Sheriff's team and we're going to setting up a meeting now right well and right and the uh you know the reason I was bringing up the whole the ratio thing is because you know we see something similar to that with schools right so we say this project is likely going to generate X number of children there's no reason why we couldn't figure out the numbers to be able to figure out all right this Project's going to likely generate the need for 3.6 deputies well and the benefit of an impact P study is it'll look at all that yeah we will have concrete data on how many deputies an apartment complex generates or a single family home that'd be great because that's what I would love to see on a memo you know on a but that's the other thing that's why I'm encouraging them to go down the impact for because then we'll have better data on the impact even though if it's only paying for the capital part of it it'll still let you know hey how much how many deputies does a single family home generator an apartment complex or or a Walmart whatever it is the impact who looks at that and your big need is in that first 2.8 years that's where you're that's where you're kind of behind the eightball because but once you hit the 2.8 years and tax revenues come online and you can kind of fund that from that point forward in theory you should be able to we we can but it goes back to that one screen where the population's still out growing sure we need to you're always playing catch playing catchup just from what I hear I mean just seeing the number of entitlements we give I never realized until today basically with his numbers every time we approve 400 apartment units he needs a deputy that that that happens on a routine basis every meeting here it seems like yeah what's what's the cost of a deputy uh roughly to start off roughly $200,000 and so I can tell you last year in the first six months how many was it yeah there was 40,000 entitlements so and then was back my 80 deputies yeah so that would have been 80 deputies in a six- Monon period last year and and what's your average annual cost per Deputy for benefits and salary that's so that starting off we always do from the starting off the problem is after that it's hard to get rati Deputy with two years on is going to be different than four years on yeah that's true so that's that's that's the hard part of getting that but we always say to start off is roughly $200,000 a year but that's what I said we at 40,000 were approved and there would have been 80 deputies yeah I just feel like the impact thing would still be pretty useful because in that first 2.8 years you're going to be front loaded with capital cost and then it's going to become more salary impact fee as we collected at Co the sheriff's pointing out with the taxes it's like there's that twoyear lag before we right really collect the taxes so that accelerates the time in which at least with the capital part we'd get that closer to when he needs it yeah David I just wanted to ask a question I think you mentioned so this would be residential and Commercial too correct I think the impact fee should look at both I understand the sheriff has less needs in the commercial right but you still get calls but I can tell you the fire rescue pays the commercial pays the fire rescue impact for currently yeah I'm sure he gets calls for service at Walmart Yeah couple times a day I appreciate it all God bless you thank you all very much have a great day thank you sh all right Liam anything else nope that's it I just want to wish everybody um Happy Thanksgiving since I won't see you before then Happy Thanksgiving than you you too thank you Liam you too thank you foration sorry what was that thank you for that 10minute presentation yeah well Mr chair i' like to move to a journ have a second discussion all in favor Happy Thanksgiving everyone [Music] [Music] [Music] where lakes and rivers creating an unhealthy environment for fish water foul and other Aquatic drains are meant for clean rainwater most other discharges are illegal charge please contact Pasco County Department of Public Works at 727 8 3 43611 n 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