##VIDEO ID:ok5KGnuoPlc## stands one nation under God indivisible liy and justice for all okay Madam clerk do we have the roll call please Jimmy Gerard here Christopher P here John Moody here Matthew m here d h here Chris Williams here chairman Charles here and please the proof of publication please the items for advertised in Tampa Bay Times on August 21st 2024 October 2324 November 2724 and December 2524 and byav is certifi all right thank you and uh do we have approval of the minutes motion to approve the minutes from October 17th to November 21st second have a motion and a second any further discussion if not all in favor say I I oppos like sign okay motion carries so I'd like to welcome everyone today and um uh to the U Planning Commission meeting and and uh at this time I'd like to have anybody that plans to get up and give testimony to please stand and raise your right hand and be sworn do you swear testimony to give is thank you so we're the Planning Commission we're appointed by the board of County Commissioners and we meet twice a month we we serve as a local planning agency and we hold public hearings and transmit to the board of County Commissioners our recommend our recommendations on comprehensive plan amendments Land Development code amendments rezonings and conditional use requests Planning Commission is the final decision- making body for special exceptions certain appeals uh variance requests and certain alternative standard requests however final decisions may be appealed to the board of count Commissioners me was in opposition to any comprehensive plan am Amendment Land Development code Amendment rezoning conditional use or any item where the Planning Commission makes a recommendation to the board of County Commissioners be important for you to attend the appropriate County Commission meeting those of you are not familiar with the format of the meetings we have three sections continuances consent items and regular items continuances are items that where the staff or the applicant has requested a continuance for any number of reasons and unless there are unusual circumstances it's our Uh custom to Grant those request for continuances we have consent items those items are items where we've not received any objections from staff or the public and those items are on consent agenda we'll go through the consent agenda items one at a time there's anything we U on that consent agenda that you would like to have heard today please raise your hand when we read the uh continu its number and um we'll be happy to pull it for discussion uh anything that's pulled will go into the regular items and those are items that will be fully discussed today and uh where maybe many of you will be speaking on so uh um we have um I think one request for additional time it's uh typical for for us to um have the uh applicants uh have uh five minutes and U questioners or respondents to have three minutes to ask their questions then the applicant will have an opportunity to come up and respond to those questions so um I think I think we had as I said I think we have one request for extra time right that's correct and um this is I better check myself um May the time when I would suggest that you check your phones or any items you have on you that may provide a a sound uh during the meeting please silence the your phones so that we don't disturb anybody that's speaking and before we start uh the regular meeting do we have anyone here that's here to comment on or ask questions on anything that's not on today's agenda Mr chair we do have one individual signed up Nancy Hazelwood okay so before we start the regular meeting uh Miss Hazelwood would you like to come up speak [Music] Nancy Haywood 34110 a nice place appreciate you all taking your time to be here and look at applications that are coming in and listening to our woes and I've got plenty of them right now um first off I'd like to speak on the northeast rural area plan I want to give you in a nutshell to remind you that it was created at the same time as Pasadena Hills and we were told it was in trade let Pasadena have all that density and we could stay the rural protected area uh but the county seems that letting applications in there not sustainable to the Northeast protected area right now coming before you sooner or later is Evans 80 in an AC let me remind you an EC originally was created for good solid jobs such as medical evidence 0 makes that moery it is high density how are we protected it's right in the middle of Northeast rural Blandon Road Project 19 point something or other Acres they're asking for 10 units on it which should be okay but they want res one all of a sudden you've got res one in the middle of the Northeast Ro area and that is a Suburban density not rural not protecting our area so this is a it's next to it's close to a subdivision that was built in the 60s or the 70s like a head project and they're using that that was grandfathered and I consider those people really lucky to live in the Northeast Ro area plan because we have not much in the way of problems out there or traffic or anything else but they're going to use it as a way to jump off I don't think that that's because of that HUD project is not a reason to start destroying the protected area better yet let's find a way um that we can get out of that since it's Res three there's got to be res one uh they're saying that there's no other land use that they can use but there's got to be something there we do not need res one the middle Northeast r or maybe this is the idea all along to break open the northeas Roo area plan but wait there's more a test well is supposedly for water for the growth in Pasco County is approved is trying to be approved to test water out in the northeas RO area the question is why is it almost on the Hernando County Line and close to the green swamp if is Supply water for the other side of the county that's growing let's re return to EV 80 they have a condition on that plan that says they can't begin until they have County Water and sooner so well guess what utilities is thinking about putting a wastewater treatment plant in the same area do you want to hear more or you want me to go you one more minute okay uh so if the well fills for all a Pasco one would think it' be put closer to the growth instead of having water lines all the way out to the the other side of the county there is no doubt in my mind that this county is using these projects to open up and get rid of the Northeast protected area is it any wonder that people mistrust the county what is the county giv back from this for this crying congestion what about our drinking water since the protective area was in exchange for Pasadena Hills how about taking something from Cadena Hills and giving it back this is the taking the county needs to on start honoring its agreements it's not happening just here it seems to be happening all over the place y'all just voted on getting not saving a rural area last time you were here the count one more thing the County's 2050 plan meeting the number one item that people want to say were rural areas and add to them so what do we do we're getting rid of them more than ever did the county hear us thank you all right thank you m as it would okay Liam excuse me sir did you want us do you have something I'm sorry oh okay Michael pic 9152 Kenton Road Wesley Chapel Florida 3354 four or five first I wanted to just thank you guys for what you do you're not paid near enough and more times and not you're the bad guys and we really do appreciate what you guys do in your service to the county the other thing I wanted to mention was in December I reached out to each commissioner and also director angle and I lead the Pasco connected cities residents group we have over 1100 members and we have a lot of concerns about the connect Ed City I reached out to bring some of our concerns about the connected City development and rezoning to their attention and I want to thank chairwoman sari who sat down with us on Monday and director Engle who has also sat down with us to listen to our concerns we very much appreciate them um some of the concerns that we've wanted to bring forward is in the connected City the majority of the recreational areas and parks and all of the nature trails did not get built they are not in the resoning they did not get past engineering a big portion of the connected City intent is parks open areas green spaces and outdoor Trails a healthier lifestyle those are a big portion of our concerns and they sat down and listened to us commissioner joerger I'm scheduled to meet with her tomorrow so I thank you in advance we both had to reschedule and um just want to thank director Engel and chairwoman starky for taking their time to meet with us thank you thank you appreciate that good afternoon Le Divine Planning Development and economic growth Department um item PC3 which I do have some corrections to read into record um your agenda package um States it's pde 25- 043 4 that should actually read pde 25- z82 um Additionally the um subject line of that agenda item should read as development agreement Hamilton Oaks MPD master plan unit development um amh Development LLC and this will be coming with a request to continue the item to the January 23rd meeting um for Planning Commission at 1:30 in Newport Richie okay all right let's go to the next one okay is is the applicant present by the way anybody here to object okay next pc4 pde 25773 and it is a zoning amendment in the names of EV in the name of Evans county line 80 mpud master plan unit development Evans property Inc this is coming with a request to continue the item to the Planning Commission meeting on February 6 at 1:30 in dat City all right appli pres I would like to know we do have somebody who signed up for public comment on that one James novaro um but this is a continuance item okay um is Mr Navaro here um I have a general comment regarding excuse me one just a minute Mr Navaro if you're going to speak um we just need you to come up to the because it we have to have it on record so we need your we need your name and address but let me just say this before you do speak um if this is going to be continued it'll come up at a different date so it won't it won't be heard for consideration today so if you want to hold your comments until it does come up that's your option but if you speak today you won't be able to speak at the next meeting all right my name is James novaro at 34721 Blandon Road date City mhm my comments I selected uh pc4 or it could be any one of these items on the agenda is pretty General my consideration or my concerns here is that this committee has um in my opinion since I've been here over 35 years has uh open it's like the Wild Wild West when it comes to approving agricultural land for high density residential I live right next door and there's another this young lady here was stating that they're going to uh break up the land uh for uh 10 10 units possibly uh more so my concern is General I'd like to be able to say that uh we all like to enjoy agricultural lands and enjoy animals and chickens and and I have those but since I've been here it's been constant Road traffics coming through I live right on blaton and um hopefully with this new uh members or some of the you guys are new um can do something about the constant uh uh traffic flow and breakup of the lands that we uh appreciate you guys started with the with the uh temp Electric with the uh uh Zone I mean the um solar panels across the street from the college you have these multi-units right next door to me we're going to have another split of 10 and now we got this 300 unit plus another one on uh 34 Acres what's going on why are you why do you guys insist on agree to doing that when you know this area is mostly for agriculture for people to enjoy a different lifestyle that's all I have to say all right thank you very much appreciate your comments yes I think if it's okay with the Planning Commission you should consider those comments as just being general public comment okay because I don't it doesn't feel like he was really speaking to pc4 right I I don't want him to be prohibited from speaking on pc4 okay and I also don't want to have to give the applicant rebuttal because the comments were more General nature so I don't I think you should just construe it as being general public comment okay so for the record then uh Mr Evans for the record then it means what me means is when it does come up for for to be heard you can come up and speak again okay thank you David the next item on the list is pc5 pde 25784 5 it's a special exception request in the name of BDI properties U LLC tle e Wells Road this is coming with a request to continue the item to Planning Commission on February 6th in Dade City at 1:30 I would also note this item will be read vertis in the newspaper okay is the applicant present okay anyone sign up to speak on this one no no one signed up to speak on this one all right is that the last continuance that is the last continuance but pc6 will also be a staff request to continuance if you would like me to read that into record uh okay so pc6 pde 25- 7848 um it's a special exception or request in the name of 52 Properties LLC tropical boat and RV storage 52 this is coming with a request to continue the item to the February 6th meeting in dates at 1:30 p.m. for Planning Commission this item will also be Reed in the newspaper all right thank you applicant presid Mr chair since this one was not advertised as a continuance you should see if there's anybody here that wants to speak to it we can't make the next meeting is the applicant president okay is there anyone here uh here to speak on this one okay all right those are the continuances then that would be your last continuance item okay so we uh have some requests for continuances do I hear a motion motion to approving continuances second okay um any further discussion if not all in favor signify by saying I just to clarify clarify the motion that's to the dates by stated yes correct okay thank you oppos like sign motion carries okay very good pc7 pdde 25-cu 07 it's a conditional use Amendment request in the name of DV Dade LLC Discovery mood and anxiety it's a conditional use amendment to increase the number of beds from 24 to 40 um in an existing Residential Treatment care facility in a ar1 agriculture residential district it's located on the northwest corner of the intersection of Clinton Avenue in windsorwood Boulevard this is coming with a request to approve with conditions all right havean present okay didn't see you back there okay is anyone here to object okay is that the only only item that is your only consent item Mr chair I move to approve the consent agenda second we have a motion and second further discussion of the motion signify by saying I I iOS like sign okay Mr chair p8 will be presented by my colleague Gavin kovi okay good afternoon uh Gavin Kobe Planning Development and economic growth um before we get started I do want to say that we do have an additional exhibit um that we would like to include for the record okay and we also I should say we also have uh printed copies for anyone that may want that exhibit having trouble hearing your back there who is all the people on the back oh are they Gavin is that the surrounding MP exhibits correct that is the surrounding a PD exhibit right while we finish up I am going to get started so this is pte 27615 the tall timers MPD and so this is a a rezoning request from AC agricultural District to a CC connected City master plan unit development and this is for 380 multif family dwelling units and 180,000 ft of non-res residential uses and Associate infrastructure on approximately 38 acres and this is located at the northwest corner of the intersection of Kinton road and tendle road uh here is a location map within the entire County here's a location map within connected city as you can see it's within the community Hub um adjacent to the urban core uh as you can see here we do have the spa development patterns for the community Hub up here it's a little hard to read but I I'll read some of the the the standards within the community Hub it is medium density and intensity Recreation cultural and educational uses Civic multi family and single family residential uh there's prohibited industrial uses and the housing options also include single family detached Courtyard houses and row houses here's a location map for the mpud here's a zoning map which is currently AC and then here is a context map for you so we have the subject site in blue the marada MPD to the north the Kenton MD to the to the South and then to the uh West I'm sorry passive counties of facilities uh and really quickly just a recap on the entitlements in this area uh first we have marata which was approved for 285 single family detached dwelling units uh 1500 single family detached age restricted units 991 multif family dwelling units uh 2,161 single family attached uh 421,000 ft of retail 186,000 ft of office 50,600 ft of medical office uh 50,600 of university hospital and 200 hotel rooms uh to the South the Kinton Mudd was approved for 800 multif family dwelling units uh and 10,286 ft of non-residential and then you can't see this uh on the exhibit but the pascot Town Center was approved for uh to the west of the Pasco County facilities was approved for um 3500 single family uh attached and multif family dwelling units 400,000 ft of retail 725,000 ft of office and 4 million ft of industrial and 300 hotel rooms here is a picture of the master plan which includes the srsa site and the mix use area and then here is The Binding concept plan which includes the mix use buildings uh the office buildings and where the town homes will be located um additionally uh there are 41 required units to be um reloaded within the town home section and there are requirements for vertically integrated apartments with non-residential a minimum of 12,000 ft there was additional language uh between the last PC hearing uh that that pte worked on and included in this one with the applicant and we thought that ensuring that the Mas rating and infrastructure plans for the our safe site be included with the residential to ensure that any Wetland or um flood plane mitigations would be put on the residential side and making sure that plans are are submitted for the entire site so that the non-residential could come in the future and this comes a recommendation of approval with conditions to the board County Commissioners Mr chair I have a question yes um C can you put the binding concept plan back up yes of course so and this comment will not be a shock to you because I read it in other mudds um The Binding concept plan is showing neighborhood parks and condition nine says the neighbor Parks has depicted on the master plan have not been reviewed for Approved consistency with the Land Development code that seems like a problem to me if we're saying that that plan is binding but then we're also saying that we don't know if they comply with complies with the Land Development code or not so now I understand your position is that this binding concept plan doesn't deal with all the aspects of the neighborhood park but clearly it's showing neighborhood park locations and acreages that if we're saying that's binding I don't know how we can say it's binding but then we can change it all at site PL so there's got to be a middle ground if between saying a Conant plan is binding and saying that we're deferring neighborhood park review to the site plan approval so um to me condition n need needs to say something like except for the neighborhood park attributes that are depicted on The Binding concept plan then then that review will current site plan approval but you can't ignore the fact that there are neighborhood parks depicted on this binding concept plan which condition n appears to do so in my opinion I need to be changed to create some exception for the park attributes that are shown on The Binding concept plan absolutely and I I believe we're working through this exact problem through other muds so we could transfer that language that we agree to in that in other muds into this one if that's acceptable to the applicant okay well before we get can we get a motion to fix paragraph condition nine to reflect that change I understand I'm not suggesting that you're need to approve this project I just need to get this issue fixed if we're going to move forward with this mut at all okay so do you need the want to restate the motion that your the motion would be to amend condition n to say that to add a phrase that except for the except for the park attributes depicted on neighbor Park attributes depicted on The Binding concept plan that the neighbor Parks depicted on the master plan have not been reviewed to approve consistency with the inim moment because you're just adding that exception for what's depicted on the mining concept plan okay so move so we have a motion do you have a second I'll second okay all in favor signify by saying I close like sign okay so that's been modified okay anything else thank you any questions can you Gavin can you go back to the you showed the different Spa zones what is staff's such your argument how does staff support that in the mixed use area that this plan meets the objective of the mix of uses that support Recreation uses cultural destinations and educational facilities mixed use areas serving as neighborhood centers so what's on this plan what's shown on this plan that you say you can support that it meets that objective yeah so I would say that the mixed use Center inclusive of the apartments and the non-residential uses could be a potential neighbor Neighborhood Center including um the neighborhood parks as well for the neighborhood I'm not sure I understand can you put the plan back up yeah master plan sorry technical difficulties so if you see that mix use area to the bottom actually it's probably easier to see on this this plane right here the mix use building here is actually intended to bring be brought up to Kinton Road um and align those buildings align that street which is has a 16t um sidewalk on it so people in the neighborhood could access that without actually entering the development people who were on um the actual public roadways On's what's cultural cultural about a mixed use building and a parking lot I I will say say that not every project in every mut isn't going to have every attribute of every thing that's in the community Hub because there's also provision in there for so if this project doesn't include it and the other mpus DS didn't include it then how do we make sure it gets included so we can include it in the future again it's up to negotiations within the MD and what the developer will accept in those negotiations um I would love to include a cultural amenity in every single imp that I do but it's really up to the negotiations that I have with the developer what if they all say no there's really nothing else within the LC that would require me to handle that and something's broken isn't it I think what Mr mood is suggesting is there needs to be an overarching view of all the projects that are going on here to make sure that if this project doesn't include all those elements that that that gets included in some of the projects that are going on and there needs to be accountability for of course of course consist or maybe those need to be in the form of Land Development code requirements so that they're applicable to all and not on a Case byic yes David I I think some of the confusion is that the connected City plan wasn't exactly translated into the underlying zoning So the plan is aspirational provides guidance but the the actual applied Zoning for this area doesn't mandate this these features and these uh components isn't the zoning what we're here doing today this is an mpud which is the zoning right it's to create a new zoning but I'm yeah right well I thought we're here to create that though well yes but I'm just telling you the zone doesn't provide exact guidance on use of property relative to the plan that's why I said something's broken I'm not disag I'm not pointing blame I'm just saying something's broken okay yeah that mean we have the same issue with schools if we have all these small muds and they I can't extract a school out of there so if we have all these small MPS that come in and they all say no where do we get a school well I mean we figure it out but it's not an easy task and what's the solution well the difference with schools is that at least with schools in Connected City there was a search charge developed to help fund the acquisition of school sites so um I understand Mr William's concern but at least it was addressed agre and and there are some school sites in yes in Connected cities so it's not quite the same level of problem is missing cultural centers now I will tell you that most more recently and this is evidenced at starky the cultural centers of many of these areas tends to be where libraries are located and we tend to our libraries are morphing into sort of Library cultural centers so to me the real breakdown here is why was there not a library plan somewhere in Connected City because that could have that could have functioned as the cultural center for connected City and we have Library impact fee um and has libraries commented it all on these MPS and said hey we'd like to have a library in one of these MPS that could function as the cultural center no not not since I've been processing the connected City imputs we do have a a library at water grass as state you're aware that's they didn't opt into connected City but inside actually water grass is in Bop B terito planning devel Planning Development economic growth awful um there is a library on the outskirts of connected city that has been identified as a need to service this area by the libraries department is on the what amounts to the northeast corner overpass in curly Road in the um in the Old Town Center um it's on it's near eperson but it's the prominade the prominade um which is by the same developer that water grasses so we've worked that out in a recent uh mpud update so so staff's position is that will effectively function as the cultural center for this area based on conversations that I've been included in with libraries uh they needed that particular site to serice this part of the county okay is that answer your question Mr Moody no okay what's what do you recommend I don't oh I just making an observation and I want to hear the rest of the Public's comments but I that was an issue that was brought up during the first airing of this case and I haven't seen any argument to show that the mpud meets the goals and objectives of that Spa Zone within connected City okay maybe when the applicant gets up they'll have some argument for that I don't know uh Terry pitos again Planning Development economic growth from a cultural asset standpoint it's important to note too that within connected City but also I think County white that Parks play an important role in the cultural asset establishment across the county so we do have uh local parks neighborhood parks that the individual ues are required to set up in this case there's two they'd be required to set it up if they were building a regular subdivision the neighborhood parks as a Land Development code requirement and Terry and rebuttal of that I mean we're going to give them credit for the parks here but the the parks they're showing here are less than 50% of what the code requires for par Park area just as they lie today 380 units of 1.7 Acres um connected city does have a varying Parks requirement um the point of the parks requirement in Connected City and smaller Parks is that they're supposed to be amenitized so there is a table that says all the amenities that should be in the park and they get to pick from those amenities well maybe that goes back to you know the point that David brought up earlier was you know we we make a statement about the parks and and the combination of The Binding concept plan versus MPD plan and all that kind of stuff but so has staff reviewed these neighborhood parks to confirm they comply with the connected City Land Development code and at least in terms of acreage the answer is yes I believe the yes the answer is yes okay okay any other questions before we hear the applicant I was just going to make another point to Mr Moody's comment and and and I agree with what David said also I mean what's that forc the school district to do is have to I mean yes we get a search chars but it kind of has it forces us to be a little more proactive and we have to go out and find a land owner who's willing to sell whatever amount of acreage we might need to build a school which is fine we've done that before we continue to do that um vop was nice because they had a more structured approach to do it but in connected cities case maybe the maybe the answer is the county has to be proactive in working with land owners to try to find a library site well what I'm hearing staff say is that the library the primary library site in this area will be at the watergrass the prominy Town Center I guess if that's sufficient to cover that size area I guess that that's that's that's a policy decision for what heing staff say is that that will be the cultural center for this area I'll come I'll come back let the applicant talk and I'll come back to it but I swear I remember some discussion about what the central amenity of connected city was and I don't think it was a library down water grass okay hi hi chairman thank you Shelley Johnson 6400 Madison Street and I have been sworn um I do have my team available virtually today they weren't available at the last meeting um if there's any questions in regards to track traffic we have Libby rodri Elizabeth Rodriguez who is our transportation planner and then we have Eric milberg who is our civil engineer that can answer any engineering questions that come up we are we have been working with stas uh since November to um address some of the concerns and questions that were raised at the last Planning Commission meeting um we are in agreement with the revisions that um were were uh voted on with regards to um condition number n we're good with the revisions to condition number 12 in terms of the luum and we're also good with the um additional language that's been added to condition 50 um but I I think they've gone over that while very while I'll be happy to answer any additional questions on that stuff I know my my uh team is also likewise available to answer any questions of that stuff I do want to get to Mr Moody's point because I do think um I can add to some of that discussion I put up on the the location map you can see connected city um this particular parel is in the northwest corner of the community Hub and if you look where that red star is that's that proper that's the property we're dealing with the three other sides of this particular property are bordered by what is now marada the north Innovative Zone um the urban core which is one of the heavier densities within the connected cities um and that is an adjacency to this property um and then also the business core which is supposed to be more business oriented a little bit heavier in dencity um so this property is kind of at an apex it's in a transition part of the connected cities overall play you know overlay when you look at the individual policies and objectives of conducted City and I've read through it all twice unfortunately and you've looked at the Land Development code and all the implementation procedures or mechanisms that they put in place to you know make those policies come to life the one thing that it continually says over and over again is every single Spa Zone area including this Hub they want mixed use in that Hub so even though it says these are the kinds of things we're looking for because and the reason this is a community hub is because of King lake so I think the idea is around King Lake from a planning perspective you're going to have some Recreation you know Parks nice things like that as you move further away towards the north OVA Zone which is marata as you move further you know away from the lake towards um the the urban core and the business core you know you're you're moving you're you're moving into more more of that mixed juice element so if you were going to put mixed juice on this property in the community Hub you can have mixed juice it literally in every single it says it so many times in the objectives and policies that they want it in every single zone that's why this particular Zone specifically only excludes industrial because they want to encourage this in every single zone so that every Zone has its own sense of place sense of community all that good stuff this particular one which they were mentioning earlier you see the vertical mixed integration the apartment you see the um T not the town home which is in the back but the office uses what there what the intention is along that is when Kenton Avenue is actually built it's going to have that sense of community it's going to have that Corridor the streetscape and that kind of stuff and then you'll have the vertical integrated the apartment with you know retail office whatever under underneath it and then you'll also have the the the site ready service site the um the office site so where this particular property is in the community Hub it's doing exactly actually what the planners have done with the county and and and the beacon team have done exactly what is called for in your comp plan um so you know I think that's important to point out because it gives you a little bit I think you know more of a overall perspective of what this property is doing where it's at why it's being planned this way Mr CH but I will be more than happy to answer any questions so shley this may be a question for your engineer but sure and you know this came up at the last meeting but if we could put the binding concept plan back up let me go back oh no I'm not good with these things hold on a sec I might be able to do it this way there we go so one of the major issues that was raised at our last meeting was you went oh good lord hold on guys on a delay okay I'm sorry the question is if we can ever get it back up there we go is is your engineer confident that given the Wetland and flood plane mitigation constraints on the site that that plan is actually permittable and so I'd like your civil engineer to get up and explain how that's permittable given the Wetland and flood flame mitigation constraints on the site yes and he is available a virtually so Eric milberg he can definitely answer those questions for you I assume he'll need to be sworn if he did not swear in when we swear everybody else then yes he will need to be SW what did you say is you say Derek is that what you said Eric milberg yeah he's the civil engineer on the site Eric if you can speak you are unmuted so you should be able to talk okay can everyone hear me okay yeah yes Eric you um you haven't been sworn so I'd ask you to stand raise your right hand and I'll just trust you on that one and repeat after the the clerk please sure thanks do you or affirm the testimony you're about to give is the truth so help you got I do all right thank you and could you give us your name and address uh my name is Eric melberg I live at um 5224 net Drive um I'm actually Tampa um Tampa Florida 33634 all right thank you ER did you hear the question yeah um so the question was uh how can I am I confident that this layout will work um based on the flood plane patterns um so I've looked into the Watershed model that the site resides in we're in the Cypress Creek Watershed and the only offsite flows that we receive is from the north um so I can accommodate those offsite flows and have the discharge into that into pond one on the North there um I with regard and the the side only outfalls to the southeast um I can I can you know put a series of ppes in there probably very near to that multi path um that mix use building to uh to uh to maintain the existing patters so this concept plan should be you know this is what about the Wetland impacts so these are all category two and category uh Wetlands um we uh you know we will have to mitigate for any kind of wetland imp next uh for Land Development code um so yeah I mean we're the only thing we really can impact is category one nothing out of category one category ones are 100 acres or that's not the situation we have out here um so you know I don't know about everybody else but I'm having a real hard time understanding what you're saying yeah I couldn't hear the last thing you [Music] said um about the how you're dealing with the Wetland impacts if you could repeat that okay slow down a little bit and speak right into whatever you're speaking into sure um so the on-site wetlands are all category two and category three Wetlands um those are allowed to be impact for the P County Land Development code I think it's under chapter uh 803 I think that's the section um so we we we will be allowed to impact those uh Wetlands if we have to mitigate for them um but you know I don't I don't see any issue with impacting these existing viets well let me let me clarify my question it wasn't so much whether the impacts were allowed by the Pasco County L development code the question was really are you confident that the other permanent agencies such as Swift Mud will permit those impacts and if so where where would you mitigate for the impacts uh at all likelihood we would mitigate for the impacts offsite they have mitigation banks that you pay into uh during Swift Mud permitting they're going to make they're going to have their environmental scientists go out and uh ensure that the Wetland limits are uh are are correct um they they typically it depend it depends on the quality of the wetlands if it's a very high quality Wetland that's like s that's that's uh that has a lot of wildlife living in [Applause] there uh ask developer to preserve as much of those as possible I don't believe that's the cas here I think all c um so I don't you're fading out again please can you repeat that I'm sorry I said you're fading out again I don't know if you're getting further away from your Source or what but you need to slow down and speak more clearly okay so the wetlands that are on site are category two and three wetlands um they're low quality mean they're not serving there there's not a lot of wildlife in there um so I don't believe Swift Bud's gonna object to impacting the existing wetlands and your plan is to mitigate for those impacts by offsite mitigation Bank correct that's what I assume we'll end up doing do that conflicts with condition 50 now then they said what mitigations will uh be located within the residential portion of the [Music] mpud no I think what that I don't want to interrupt but what that condition is saying is that none ofation can go into the the site righty site the office building you know where the office square footage is going to go Andor the apartment site which is again along Kenton which will be the vertically integrated it's required to have that um it's it's required to have vertical integration period but then the you know it has to be at least 12,000 squ ft it has to sort of offsite but well that's what that's applying to it's just saying you can't do any of the mitigation on those I think he's technically right it does say if your intent is to locate it either in the residential portion of the NPD or in an off-site mitigation Bank probably should say that right now it just says any mitigation required for these areas should be located within the residential portion of the MPD your engineer is saying that is not your intent that your intent is to locate it in an off-site mitigation bank so if that I hear what you're saying if that's your intent and if everybody's okay with that I don't know if they are we would have to add or offsite mitigation Bank yeah and I'm fine with that I think what we intended when we wrote it was just just to make sure that we were preserving as much upin you know developable AC for ask we're fine with that Mr dutter or whoever wrote this condition staff have an objection if it because you all wrote this condition do they have an objection if it said shall be located within the residential portion of the mpud or an off-site mitigation Bank no PD doesn't have it doesn't have an opposition to that language okay sh is the Wetland exhibit that we're seeing in our the survey is that actually been verified by the war Management District yet is that a formal yes it's a wetland it is a wetland delineation there's a class two on the site and there is a class three on the site um both I guess are fairly low quality we did have Jackie Jordan who's a senior biologist with the county review them and review the Wetland delineation um and she confirmed it's a class two and a class three so but this is for verified Swift survey um I don't know if it's a Swift Mud approved survey but it is a it's a survey it's and this the county uh senior biologist has looked at it as well so Shelley on those lines I mean condition s specifically says the categories will be finalized at the time of Swift mut approval so if they've already been determined and classified I I would when I read the conditions I didn't think they the classifications were say it well typically at this level you don't get this detail I get it but that's not what you just represented represented they had been determined by Jackie to be twos and threes Jackie Jordan yeah she sent an email out that had had looked at the Wetland delineation the survey that was submitted by our surveyor who did the Wetland delineation showing a class two and three submitted those to Jackie Jordan the senior biolog she reviewed them and she made a determine that um I believe she made a determination that a I have it right here if you want me to enter it into the record sh just just to clarify sure Swift doesn't care about classifications of well if Jackie confirmed that was my question did Jackie provide you classification of the wetlands because this says that she didn't yes she actually sent an email that said she classified Wetland a as a category 2 and Wetland D is a category 3 and I can enter the email Jackie online and raising her hand maybe we should hear from Jackie directly yeah obviously yeah all right let's take let's do that Jackie yes have a approved Swift Mud survey it did however expire in July of this year or this past year so I informed them that they will need to have a new updated survey that's valid when they submit their site plan but based off of that survey we did make the determination that they are category two in a category two and a category three well we noted the conditions since we reviewed their application originally and we did not have that delineation at that time so that's why we used our standard the categorization would be determined when we receive that approved um Wetland boundary okay can I answer your question D yeah I David can I ask a question and Shelly maybe it's of you to my understanding of condition of approval number 50 does this condition insinuate that you need to go in and basically get a Swift Mud permit for your the mass rating of the office office building area and the mixed use building area when you attempt to develop the town home proper I think that's exactly staff's intent staff I think staff's intent is that they want to make sure that if this project gets developed that the service ready site in mixed use area are actually become developable up ons because that we heard some testimony at the last meeting that that was the important part of this project to staff and so they didn't want to see it become Wetland mitigation or flood plane area so condition number 50 prevents the developer or a future developer from parceling off what's shown as town homes on this plan and attempting to permit those by themselves without taking care of the wetlands on the two the office and mixed use are yeah I to be clear and I get Patrick up here to clarify I think they could permit the Town Homes at a site from a site plan perspective independent of the the mixed use in Office Buildings but not without making sure that those areas were basically uploads or developable in other words this speaks to massg grading and storm water infrastructure so it doesn't say that they have to get plary sight plan approval for the entire thing at once well how do well then how do they accomplish that is the question I guess I'll get Patrick up here to explain it but I I read it as they're going to have to do a masquerading storm water plan for the entire site not necessarily plary site plan for the entire site is that accurate accurate uh sorry Patrick dutter Planning Development economic growth accurate any you been sworn yeah do I need to be sworn yes sure what guarantees that they finish it finish the mass grading yes well they wouldn't receive a um earthw work permits unless they you know went through the review and approval process um and I think there's certain timelines for work to be completed on mass grading activity and I would think with that condition they probably couldn't move forward with a preliminary plan construction plan whatever for the residential component if that mass grading P piece is not completed okay all right that do it yeah okay so I guess while we're on the subject of condition 50 and I know I'm not going to say whether you all agree or disagree with it but can we get a motion to add the or offsite mitigation Bank to the end of the um second sentence so moved second other discussion all in favor I'm sorry that's the end of the third sentence end of the third sentence other discussion all in favor signifi by saying I I those like sign okay all right uh is anybody here that wants to speak to this you on whoever on the list now free to come forward chairman I may need all 10 minutes Michael pic I'm on record can you put up the um second PowerPoint we didn't use the first one no the other one thank yes ma'am thank you this is the comprehensive plan Amendment for connected CI this is what it was adopted in 2017 this is the Playbook this is the handbook I'm smelling another bait and switch and I'd like to show you why this is what this originally came in as 380 multif family dwelling units 180,000 ft of non-residential uses this is what's actually in it and specifically it says 26 Apartments that's key here this is the school impact analysis which confirms there's going to be a minimum of 190 apartments in this mixed use that's the plan we've looked at it specifically if you look at the pictures to the right here by height design that are included with this plan and this is their other pictures for mixed use our first hiccup here is the community Hub Zone if we look at housing options which this is in the community Hub single family detached Courtyard houses and row houses down here we call them tow houses in the business core in the urban core you can have Apartments there is not to be apartments in the community Hub Zone per your comprehensive plan amendment that was not the intent now I understand LDC does not State a threshold on R3 versus R4 medium to high density so we've got to use some common sense here and we've got to take some intent on the project itself we're not supposed to have apartment in the community Hub I keep hearing the words Recreation recreational and Parks a little side note is we have concluded the county never etched out areas in the connected City or the community hub for the parks and recreational area there's not the Parks and Recreation has been moved east of handcart Road outside the connected city east of Pasadena Hills it's all been moved out to the new super complex there is is not parks there is not Recreation there is not trails in here I'd like to point out here if you look at the open space options for all five districts here the very first word of each of the districts starts with Parks Parks large District park parks and Parks a neighborhood swing set inside a townhouse Community is not parks for the master plan that is for the individuals in the 164 tow houses and the een Apartments 216 and the latest one that's for those people to go out in the backyard and have a swing set that is not parks for the connected City that's my first issue here I'd like you to consider the second is this site plan the access and egress to this is going to be based off of where utilities is brought in which is based off the aiel and the Kenton muds it's going to be Kenton Road coming in from the south you have a two-lane dirt road from mckendry all the way out to almost goo of unpaved area everybody traveling west to the interstate all the service vehicles coming in from our town center and distribution center everybody traveling in and out to the etertainment is going to be traveling a two-lane dirt road everybody traveling to the east to come to dat City in San Antonio is going to be traveling a two-lane dirt road this road cannot handle it even though Kenton roog will be the access and agress to this project natural resources and conservation natural resources serve as a significant asset to a community a wetland serve as a natural flood control resource and house a diverse ecosystem for animal and plant life when I left on Monday morning to meet with staff I drove past this property there was a bald eagle in a tree that told me we're fighting the right fight and this is ridiculous at this point this site plan does not have any Wetlands listed in it there is no Wetlands that are protected here's your topo map that's been submitted with the site application all of those pretty colors for everybody standing behind me are all Wetlands this is a cattle bottom this is a basin where the West the North and the East drain into it and this becomes a watershed now what's unique about this survey right here is if you look at where the pretty purple stops it's almost as if the water doesn't go anywhere but I'd like you to see some different maps that might tell a different story here here is your flood maps from GIS and even Google's smart enough to say there's a lake in the middle of this you're going to put tow houses in 180,000 Square ft of office space on that portion of the lake this flood map comes from the gis with too this is the aerial so everybody can see where the water holds if you look well this is a pretty picture with the bus station in the urban core too but if you look here these flood planes all come out to the southwestern corner of this property this was pictures a month after the hurricane where they're all still holding water and if you look at the GIS mapping here I had to take a snippet from the computer but underneath that envelope on the bottom left there you can see that blue continues down past where their survey is that's important because it continues down that's the east side of the county land and there's a swa there so even though the topo map doesn't show it underneath all of those trees they're nice and healthy because they get plenty of water into the soil there's a sale that goes north and south on the west side of Tindle Road there this map you can see the Swale comes all the way back down to Tindle Road and where it crosses and where it crosses there you can see the top of map shows 101 ft this is that road this is that road and you can see your marker for your underground water discharge you can't refute the water that's sitting right there it took a Jeep to get through there now as we back out a little bit you you're going to see that this also back feeds the class one Wetlands that's on in that portion right there this if you look at the picture on the left where it says Kenton Roode you can see that class one extends South where it says fussel drive this is Lakeside Estates those are all homes in there they were almost flooded out with these storms this is a zoom in of Lake s side Estates you can see how close the homes are to the flood area this is the topo map there was homes within 6 in of flooding out this summer because of the discharge that starts at this parcel of land that's all of the flooded areas Class 2 class three this is what it backfields and that to the right is the road we're talking about this is where we're putting progress progress this is where it back feeds to that's Kenton Road Kenton Road had three fet of water on it the water shed starts on this parcel whether or not the current maps show it the east side of the county-owned land there has a North South Swell that allows all the water to get off of this property if that land is taking water from the West the North and the East it has to hold it to allow it through permeable surface to get down into the ground if it is shedding the all of the water that's supposed to land on that parcel that water is going to end up in lak side States gentlemen the community Hub is not designed for a Apartments it is not designed for vertical integration the community Hub is the center point of the entire connected City to have parks recreation and a place people want to live every resoning project so far has turned into another subdivision with a play set for the people that live in it there is no amenities the community cannot get to King Lake the two fancy swimming pools have turned into payto playay operations where the developer is taking the money from it they're not amenities we can't use them there is not a single park there is not a single recreational area there is not a single amenity that's in the connected City that's accessible to the community Hub if the Town Center builds it into its plan west of mckendry fantastic but so far I've heard entertainment is the best we can do for amenities how can we get kids off of their phones and tablets and off of the video games in front of their TVs if they can't go out here and have some open space to run away run around what happens when we take slices of grass around Retention Ponds and we call them Parks what happens is the CDD for liability reasons has to signs up no fishing and no swimming so you don't get eaten by alligators the problem is when the boys try to get out in these neighborhoods and they try to go put a line in the water and catch a bass or do something away from technology HOA Nazis run out there and say this is private property you can't be here so we cannot take slivers of grass through the community call them Parks when we all know the boys aren't allowed to go play on we've got to have some space to be a community that's the very definition of every one of these districts is to have Parks have a healthier lifestyle thank you thank you any question Mr can I ask uh Mr Engler or Mr petus a question yes Mr Engle or Mr petus well if we get the compl back up there that it was referred to with the different uses come on up and wait yeah he just he's going to ask a question first before you start we get a there was a slide that was shown by the pr speaker that had various uses by district and it had the parks language in it if you go back there you go so my question for planning department is when the parks master plan was developed and the park impa fee was a park impa fee that went to this Commission um and I realized this commission voted against it but but it was ultimately adopted by the board but that Parks master plan did not include a district Park in Connected City so my question is so there really is no funding source to develop a large District park in Connected City and my understanding is a lot of the connected City Impact fees are actually going to the vop Super Park and the staff's plan was that the vop super Park would become the district park for both Bop and connected City my question to planning is when that all of that happened probably after this connected City plane was developed why didn't we go in and fix this reference that says there's going to be a large District park in the community Hub Zone if that was never the parks departments intent or planning departments intent because I it's a it's a legitimate point I mean every other zone is just say Parks which presumably are neighborhood parks forever reason this one says large District park that may have been the original intent but the parks department never developed a funding plan or master plan to actually put a district Park in Connected City so when that happened why didn't we go in and fix this reference in Connected City or does that need to happen still onario pitos playing development economic growth um I don't know why well I can't speak exactly to why the comprehensive plan for connected city was not updated with regard to the large distri District park reference um I think it may have to do with the fact that it's aspirational in a sense that one could still be established but also one was being sent to vop so in in some sense the large District park is being established it's just not within the connected City geography now the reference is under the Community Hub Zone I get that and you could run a comprehensive plan amendment to make that change but the net effect is still that the large District park that was envisioned aspirationally within the connected City comprehensive plan is now in the vop superar I get that but my concern is it becomes misleading to the residents of connected CI City if we're saying that the community Hub zone is going to have a large District park when we all know that the parks department has not developed any plan funding plan any plan whatsoever to develop a district Park in Connected City and that they're funding all the money in this area to the vop super Park and my my my recollection is that part of the reason that connected City and V were required to have this entire golf cart network of you know INF structure was so that anybody can take a golf cart to this large District park in the and that was going to be the in fact some of the connected City money um roadway money went to V to build the road to the super Park so I my question really is when the board took all of those actions adopted a master plan for Parks didn't include a parking connected City final all the money to the vop super park for this area and it just seems like at that point we should have said that's not happening anymore in Connected City let's take it out of the plan sure because to me becomes it becomes misleading to the residence of connected City because it is a very valid point that every other zone is just saying parks and that one says large that does imply that they're going to get something different in the community Hub Zone than just noral neighborhood parks so sure I think at this point it's because of other board actions it's probably too late to get a large District park and and there's no funding source identified for it I'm not sure that ever could happen in Connected City anymore but we shouldn't continue to have references in the plan as if it's going to understood okay Terry could you also speak to what the gentleman brought up before about um the use of Apartments within the community Hub Zone even though that's I understand this is aspirational so so the connected City compan plan doesn't identify the specific um dwelling units per gross acre ranges similar to the rest of the comprehensive plan the overall comprehensive plan will say three dwelling units per gross acre and a was three so on and so forth in Connected City the comprehensive plan was more uh flexible it identifies medium density and intensity what is medium density intensity that has been um debated over the years with connected City uh the some of the industry standards identify medium density to be on the order of 12 to 18 units 12 units per gross acre that's medium Suburban density essentially uh here in Pasco County that's traditionally been viewed as more on a higher end of the density Spectrum um so when connected city was put forward uh medium density was identified you could get a 12 unit per acre project and uh read it as medium density uh if we were to take the mo the more um common approach password County specific common approach uh medium density would probably read as eight dwelling unites per gross acre which would be which could be interpreted as town home density so to to follow up on that question so when it says housing options in this plan is it your position that those are just one of many options they're they don't preclude other options I'm sorry okay so the point was made that under the Community H Zone it lists specifically list single family detached Courtyard houses and row houses okay as housing options correct are you basically saying that those are options but they don't preclude other options correct right as long as those other options were medium density and intensity is that what you're say yeah because Courtyard houses they there isn't a prescribed density to a form of multif family which is a courtyard house you can often get a courtyard house to fit in at equ this why is the word aart specifically excluded it's included in the business core Zone and the urban core Zone it specifically says Apartments because density and housing community density and housing options are two different things so we you know we we understand it's medium density based on the density line item at the top but the housing options you know that again that's that's it's kind of like having large District park when we know there's not going to be one there it's it's kind of misleading for people to think okay these are going to be the type of building types that we're going to expect in this area and then to have a completely different building type that's not listed in there I think that that's the issue I understand it may fit within that Medium density option but you know um in theory if that's the case and you can have you something in the north Innovation Zone that's mostly supposed to be single family you can end up with Apartments there as well because all of your uh property is taken up by Wetland impacts and you have to you know you can still be within the lower density by having a one apartment building on a big piece of land that's taken by Wetland so I guess the other question Terry is did staff ever consider if if staff's argument is this is effectively an extension of the urban core which I understand it's immediately adjacent to it was there any thought about just amending your Urban core map to include the the srsa and the mixed use areas part of make it part of the urban core where high density departments are specifically allowed I think that that was the intent of when the original interpretation when this project first was born um in terms of amending the actual map I don't think we've ever considered moving the urban core onto this onto the subject parcel to cover the mixed use areas but I think that was probably some of the original interpretation that this was a boundary area between Community Hub and the urban Corp in mixed use doesn't necessarily mean vertically integrated mixed use it just has to be a mix of uses although the particular conditions of this MPD I think does require to be vertically integ for this particular I'm I agree with you in general but I think this particular MPD and is that for traffic reasons I'll let Gavin explain why they required it but I believe there is a requirement that this mixed use be vertically sorry Gavin Kobe Planning Development and economic growth it's not for traffic reasons they studied normal Apartments if they would have studied the mixed use Apartments they would have gotten a lower trip generation so they did do a conservative estimate with just regular apartments in terms of the virally integrated Apartments reason it's just a design standard for the the extension of that uran core but that goes to my point which is well and it also matches the the roadway Network that's prescribed in the MRP so I guess that's really the root of my question is if you were mandating a form that was consistent with Urban core why not just amend the comp plan to make the that the Western portion of this project part of the urban core I guess we just never thought about it we just thought as a as an extension throughout the through the MD resoning process but I get your point Gavin I'm just I I mean it seems like you have a little bit of a comp consistency issue here if I mean I I understand Terry's argument but you're you're demanding a form that's very consistent with what Urban core is showing but you're not actually making an urban core Patrick you going to help save gin on this I mean in hindsight it probably would have made sense to label Parcels in these transition areas as transitional as a separate transitional parcel so I understand the transition between the two zones yeah and and as I mentioned earlier um the road that's going through here is an urban urban road with a 16t sidewalk so to have one side not be fronted and the other side fronted or having Frontage with apartments or retail um isn't really something that would make sense yeah I think the bigger issue is is holding this out to the public as this is what it's going to be and going oh we we're just kidding we really we're going to do it this way because this makes more sense you know that's we this is the effort of being transparent to to the citizens of pass G well let me ask let me ter let me ask you a and Gavin a question how much work would it be for staff to initiate a complant amendment to number one fix this District park issue so we're not telling the world there's going to be a district Park in the community Hub Zone and also fixing this either adding Apartments community Hub if that's your position or extending the urban core Zone to include the or how about let's get them a park well that raises a different issue which which the Commissioners have the ability to to direct where funding goes they they can make the decision whether they're going to send money over to some vop super park or if they want to put a a park in Connected City but the public got sold to park so what I'm hearing the suggestion is is well here let's just change the documents to make it all better now rather than actually fix the [Music] under committee I don't disagree with you if we had money to do so the the issue is that the parks master plan that was adopted by our board and I realize this well then they can go fix that document it would likely require them to increase the impact fee which which can be done I'm not saying that it can't be done I'm just saying that that that's more than just a um we're going to add a park to you it's I don't want to promise these folks a park and then have no money to build well we don't have the ability to promise them a park I'm just suggesting that maybe if the problem is that there's no Park let's not just doctor the comp plan to make the park go away in the comp plan that's what the public got sold let's figure out how to get a park and unfortunately that's not the planning commission's perview doe but right right all I'm saying is we need the parks department to weigh in as to how much of an impact increase that would cause to add a district Park in this location I have no idea without running that by our parks department and our impact Fe consultant cuz the decision because I what I don't want to do is just say oh there's a park we're going to promise them a park and they never allocate any money to do it cuz that's an empty Promise Too again that's not in the the Planning Commission doesn't have the power to promise a park I'm just making the suggestion that maybe that's something the commission should take up and discuss rather than prodding the staff all just to make Mr Moody I don't disagree that's an option but I guess where I'm going with the suggestion is maybe this application is premature until we fix the comp plan to have it mirror whatever it is the board wants to see in Connected City in terms of parks and apartments and and the boundaries of the urban core maybe we need to have the compl mirror what the board really wants to see in Connected City got it before we start approving more reone that are that may not match that well I'm not going to disagree with you about that and then you're actually jumping ahead to something I was saving for later so I'll ask the question now and we got a couple of the land use attorneys in the audience too because I'd like to ask them that have been involved in Connected City if I can provide an answer to Mr Goldstein Mr chairman go ahead G then so on the question of the making a comprehensive plan Amendment um I do want to go back into history a little bit with connected City and notes a few things um one connected city was identified as a place where flexibility would be key in terms of the development review process um the north Innovation Zone and the South Innovation Zone include everon or marada and erson respectively in each of those muds particularly marada and erson are places where there are Apartments um although these densities in the in the table up there will indicate lower density and intensity lower to medium density and intensity in each of these the I want to draw attention to common uses where it says that residential uses and mixed uses shall be provided in all zones and furthermore in the document it also talks about what mix use areas ought to have mixed use neighborhood centers um are something that have uh been in that are something that have defined uh what the mixed use areas of Kut City ought to be in this particular case as I'm sort of researching this on the Fly and kind of going back in the notes Here I think what the initial interpretation was by the Special Districts manager at the time was that um mixed use es would be allowed in the community Hub Zone uh and the answer to that was to provide vertically integrated mixed use buildings so they would mix the commercial land use or the non-residential land use with the higher intensity residential similar in concept to what had taken place in the North and South Innovation zones so there has been some precedent in other parts of connected City where that's where that's been sort of laid out in that manner which probably influenced how this was being U organized initially but to answer David's question yes we could go back and do a comprehensive plan Amendment although the common uses uh section of this table seems to cover the existence of mixed use in all zones so I guess it does say in community Hub and their predominant uses it does List multif family as a use it just OD that the down on the housing option section it didn't include apartments that Mr Moody's point and I think others point is that why did we specifically put apartments in business Corps and urban Corps and not the other three if that was if our intent was to allow apartments in those other three I mean I I'm interpreting the comprehensive plan and the author of this section of the comprehensive plan but to me it appears that these areas were identifying particular Standalone forms versus mixed use forms okay it's not my job to interpret the comp I'll defer to others on that but it seems to me at a minimum if you're not intending to provide a large District park in the community Hub Zone that needs to be removed from the comp and we could take a look at that um going forward I just I would note too that this area was previously served by and currently is being served by the was a district Park that exists at on over I understand the serving part of it ter the concern on is that it says there's going to be a large District park in the community Hub Zone not outside of it so says there's going to be recreational areas associated with the light and so to clarify what you said before David the the BCC has already um allocated funding from some of these impact fees towards v v and I realize some of may not have been here when we the park impact Fe came to the Planning Commission I don't remember if you were on the Planning Commission or not um it was different about the last Park imp back the update is that it was a plan-based fee in the sense that it was a fee that was developed to develop a discrete set of parks like they actually listed all the parks that would be developed using that fee so unless they're going unless the board wants to remove one of the parks on the list and build this one instead they'd have to raise the park impact fee to build additional Parks because the fee was developed to create to build that specific list so to build a park here and I'm not disagreeing with Mr M that is a possibility but we'd either have to get rid of a park that was already promised to somebody else in the county or increase the impact fee both of which are options I'm not saying they can't be done but that's probably above your pay grade that's that would be up to the board the point is if the board's going to go with the the master plan that was already adopted and the impact fee that was already adopted it would not allow us to fund a district Park in connected we'd have to amend that it's not as simple as just saying we're going to give them a park right we'd have to amend our Park master plan and amend our impact which is which is a possibility um but I don't think the parks department has any intention of absent board Direction I don't think the parks department has any intention of pursuing that because they're already getting enough grief as it is for their current impact fee some of that grief came from this planning commit commission by the way mhm I remember that one so I'm not sure this Planning Commission would be too receptive about a park impact for increase given the way you all treated the last increase yeah well I sort of you know as hard as it might be to swallow I sort of agree with uh commissioner Moody because um you know I'm never in favor of promising something not delivering it and you know de baate and switch routine is never a good thing you know I think in in some fashion it's incumbent upon the county to come up with an idea or a way to to resolve this issue I mean I'm thinking where I live if they had promised to part in my development that I could take a golf cart to or whatever and suddenly they never developed it I wouldn't be too happy about it and uh even if they developed it in 5 miles away in some other area and the called in my Park I wouldn't be happy about it so you know sometimes we have to pay for our sins in some way to to to make it right and right now I feel like it's not right there's other ways to fund Parks or to acquire land for Parks other than through impact these even if it's at a technical level not against the comp plan you know from a 30,000 foot view what most citizens see it's it is kind of it does look like a bait switch even if it's not technically a bait switch so that's I mean I don't know what money we can take from where I don't that's not my expertise but I do know that we have things like bed taxes we have lots of money in bed taxes that we collect every year you know maybe some of that money can be moved I'll be clear yeah to be clear I that would be difficult um that that is a restricted Revenue source that can be used for tourism and a tourism as a tourism funding source it has to be primarily usable by tourists those from outside someone have negotiated with all of the developers and connected City to put up the land for a park no different than they put up land for rights of ways and roadways and that that that takes somebody being on the wall but so so the answer is yes and in fact that that was exactly what happened in V all right in V they did do negotiate with the developers that all the developers would pay sir charge on their park impact fee they would go to fund the super Park in vop this is I can't tell you all the reasons that occur but that did not occur in connected City okay it is what it is I I understand that this just going to be a bigger discussion for the board maybe Mr two wants to speak to it he can he was involved when he was here when I was here too so he was to add to it I'm I'm welcome to he's welcome to speak up too Joel did you want to speak Joel yeah and I think there was another fellow back there I wanted to speak uh Yes actually I don't want to miss on been waiting patiently yeah come sit up front here where we can I won't lose track of you here thank you uh Joel to 4700 rid viw Road Palm Harbor Florida and I have been sworn um I do have another question and comment on this particular mwd but on on the question about the district Park solely because I was a consultant obviously for the vop p and the connected City speciaal area plan um and I'm not I'm not here to say that the decisions were right or wrong but to give you some of the history on that uh originally when the special area plan for NE city was done you're exactly correct you're reading what the original contemplation was was that a district parked site would hopefully be located from a willing property owner and it would be purchased to provide your standard 80 acre District park that was at the beginning by the time we got to the point of the county adopting the financial plan for connected City and saying how are we going to fund the roads the utilities the schools the parks by that time the county had already acquired I believe the second phase of the vop super park it was acquired in three phases and just so you understand the the the concept behind what the board was thinking at the time to my knowledge is your standard District parks 80 acres your standard Regional Park is 160 Acres this vop park is about 240 acres so it literally was three times the size of a standard Park so the board was hearing from the parks department that well it takes a lot of money just to acquire the land and more importantly we have zero funding to build Park facilities the parks department had multiple Park Properties but no money to develop any of them and so obviously to the citizen citizenry they were worthless until they had facilities so the financial decision that was made as Mr Goldstein points out is at the point that we were trying to do the funding for connected City and the park impact fees a conscious decision was made that yes they recognized that connected City contemplated a district Park in the minds of the board they were voting to approve that District park they weren't not providing it they were saying we're going to commit funding from connected City to supplement funding from vop it still has taken tens of millions of dollars more in County funding to actually finish the acquisition of the super Park and more importantly to construct the improvements which are now funded in in the works so you're probably correct when those decisions and now those RW public meetings I mean they were they were publish connected city meetings where this subject was discussed numerous times and I'm not saying anyone here was there or not there but this was publicly discussed at length uh and all of that Collective funding was put on one large Park and part of the other rationale was we've required this alternative vehicle Network we we've required this connected trail system we're connecting connected City to vopa so the idea was that they would also make it relatively easy and functional for these people to use it even though as the chairman points out it is 3 4 miles to the east but any park of that size is typically more than 3 or 4 miles away from the area that it serves in the county so it wasn't that it was an unusual arrangement in hindsight probably that plan should have been amended to acknowledge that that Park element was being met through a Cooperative funding of the super Park site in order to actually get it constructed so that's the history and again I'm not saying that was a good or bad decision but it it was one that was consciously made and the belief was that they would be providing that need and that promise uh although admittedly clearly outside the GE Geographic boundary of connected City so I believe that was the board's you know expressed public intent and I I was at those meetings and obviously participated in that process for what it's worth all right thank you Mr Jo I appreciate that update yeah do do you want me to go ahead and address my I have a couple questions on this particular Zing this is public comments so yeah go ahead okay and again these comments are I'm also the consultant for Pasco Town Center for columnar Holdings uh the large Town Center to the west of this and really this is certainly not an objection my client would never object to another project but I have a couple questions if we could go to The Binding concept plan again um we just did an economic development agreement an amendment that Mr Engel and Mr Goldstein are familiar with and I just want to be sure I understand what this how this road Network relates um I believe that future tend will ride away on the north side of this project is the future realignment attendo that in fact heads West and comes directly into the center of that town center at Pasco Town Center which essentially is providing the Town Center for connected City that otherwise hasn't been provided um so I just want to be sure I understand because as Mr Engel knows uh right now that's an offsite uh unconstructed uncommitted obligation so I'm I'm curious as to how this access and this road Network ties into that in the big picture uh because my client has to construct all of our onsite roadway network but is not responsible for that offsite segment of Tindle headed east so you know it looks to me like I haven't read these conditions but I assume that this owner is going to provide their southern one half of that future right away but I'm assuming there's no construction obligation in here for that segment and I just want to be sure that that interpretation is correct but you're correct about the construction obligation there is no con the this Project's construction obligation is mostly Kinton Road and to the South okay their their representation to the county was that Kinton would be their primary access not Tindle okay so I just want to make sure and this particularly is to you Mr Goldstein and Mr Engel you know that the County's comfortable with that and that you're getting the RightWay because we all know we're going to have to buy some RightWay off site there so I I assume you're getting what you can get here with a dedication I'm going to need staff to come up and confirm this but the S the intent was that we were getting the right way we need for Tindle road for the ultimate view pH cross-section okay that's needed I mean connect the city cross-section for this needed for Tindle but all let staff confirm yeah I just don't the only reason I'm bringing up is I don't want this to buy a you know where in that offsite Missing Link we call it for that East Tindle segment uh to get to our town center I understand the point but it's if we didn't get the right way we need for Tindle I need staff to tell me that yep so in the Bing concept you can see the pink highlighter color uh it does say 71 ft of wideway dedication on there so that's half the RightWay for the tenel road what is where's the other what's the northern half coming from it might be from marata marata is located on the other side I believe I can double check their dedication I think ultimately what Mr two was asking is between these two projects are we getting all the RightWay we need for t for the future conveyance of for the future construction of Tindle I was asking whether the hand out M could this gives you a better idea of how our town center relates to that Road Extension I'm just trying to understand how the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle will fit Mr chairman why the map is being put up I just wanted to give you an overview on Pasco Town Center Pasco County is obligated to secure the RightWay pay for the design and facil the that missing link that we're talking about right but I think Mr what M two is asking David is did we make life easier on oursel by getting all the right right away we need for Tindle from this project and presumably the project a question Mr Goldstein I'm just giving the commission you know just kind of broad context of what we're talking about and you know you're absolutely correct every every inch of RightWay we can through dedication will make the project was expensive to us cuz there's no question that condition 24 requires and edicate 71 ft along the north boundry of for feuture Tindle Road and they have to accommodate the necessary drainage for um that road I believe I that was my concern I didn't have the conditions so yeah it's condition 24 Joel it does require them to dedicate 71 feet along the North Boundary for future Tindle and provide accommodate the drainage for future Tindle as well okay what I don't know um this is the reason I asked the question of the staff is is that sufficient [Music] to is that right away combined with whatever we're getting from Rod is sufficient to for that segment of T yes we we have the right away from marada 71 ft from that 71 ft from this one that'll make for 142 okay okay great is that true for the whole Mara project all the way out going east excuse me Mr chair I do just want to note um on record that we do have one person signed up for public comment virtually Tera Castro however all your other items today nobody has signed us signed up virtually for this on this topic you only have one individual for this item yes okay and we haven't finished getting regular public uh to answer Mr P this question um at least from Pasco mappa at the moment there does seem to be a gap in front of the Remington mpud which is at goo Road um I didn't have to research that specifically right now uh to the West we have the 71 ft from marada and to the east of Goo Road um there is marada constructed so um for that one little segment I'd have to research it further so I don't have the answer to that right now okay I would assume that that would have been part of the conditions when Mara was approved to uh get that right of way okay you want to come up now sure thank you for being patient Jason Baker uh I've been sworn in 8422 sand and drive all right talking about this topic here um on the parks on that tail in if you actually read the comprehensive plan for the connected City Pages 62 63 64 65 are pretty elaborative as far as the parks and what was going to be built and what was expected they call it a premier Park so it's not just on a table that's that's all I'm going to say about the parks I'm going to Echo uh Mr Michael's comments regarding the apartments you know we already went through the tables I don't believe it fits if you read the LDC you can read 522.com water and civil engineering comments um the two ponds Pond one Pond two get about 10 acres of storm water what did Eric use for design calculations on those ponds was it a 100-year 24-hour rain event do we know that that's I want to get a a confirmation on that from from the civil engineer um also if you look at the Wetland survey that's provided in this mpud proposal um note number 40 uh note number 11 actually States they didn't even do a wet uh limit survey they were using the data from a May 9th 2019 survey from another firm so now we're proposing somebody else's work to the board so how are we going to go forward with you know a survey that you didn't even really do you're just reamping it and then number two in 2019 Mara wasn't there erson wasn't there half a dozen of these muts in the area weren't even around so I'm sure the Wetland you know conditions on the ground are a lot different today if you were redo actually do a wetland limitation survey again today um and then also if you go through the connected City's uh comprehensive plan under table 4.2 there's language that states quote all Spa zones shall include strategies related to Wastewater recycling storm water capture and reuse so my question is for this particular um mpud we have about 10 acres of storm Pond what are we doing doing or how is this project going to reuse storm water and support this initiative in the comprehensive plan thank you all right thank you very much do we have somebody from staff to help answer some of those questions well be clear I don't know the staff can answer the engineering question that that was directed to the applicants engineer well I'm just wondering if he's here your engineer virtually okay he spoke before so while it's a the subject is on our minds let's see if we can get an answer yes yes okay um survey that was done by now now I'm losing you again so I don't know if you're moving around or what but just try to be consistent okay um with regards to the Wetland survey that was done by DC Johnson we they they were subcontracted to uh to determine the Wetland delineations uh we're not a licensed surveyor firm we're not like stealing somebody else's work and restamping it um and he is correct that we will need to get another Wetland survey prior to to getting a swi permit those Wetland delineations are uh they expired back in July 2024 um but you know I don't expect to change signicantly with regards to sizing um without I don't have GE we have but we will be analyzing the 25 uh 25 year 24 hours sorry I just I heard 25 year 24 2 to me it's just not sufficient the communication here so um I I only understood about half of what you said Eric well I think that's on his end because we've had plenty of people speak on WebEx and we've understood them perfectly fine so I don't know what's going on so it's not a sufficient answer in my my my mind because I don't understand what you're saying so I'm sure if I don't nobody else does either so um better keep talking and I'll tell you okay so with regards to the Wetland survey that was uh we will slow down survey slow down okay thank you with regards to the Wetland survey we will that's better with regards to the Wetland survey we will be ordering another one prior to receiving our Swift Mud permit and that Swift Mud permit to starting construction storm [Music] analysises 25 24hour storm event as well as the 100y year 24hour storm event I haven't started a deep dive into the drainage analysis because I do not have geotechnical information for the site we typically do not order the geotechnical information until the PED plan is approved okay why didn't you say that time okay is anything else you want to add to that you have anything you want to add to that um yeah I just wanted to comments the address a comment that um that those are compline policies um I'm not familiar with the stormw LDC section of for connected City because I don't usually review that so I'd have to do some research and get back for that okay well I can I ask him a question yes of course say he intends to run the 25 year 24hour event and the 100e 24hour event are you designing the project for the 25e event or the 100-year event in other words are you designing this as an open Basin project or a closed Basin project the C Watershed which is an open Basin wed that wated model is what determines the theme of blood elevation I will be referencing that heavily during my gr design and I will revive that to incorporate development okay thank stor will be included in that analysis yeah but I understand but for instance our regulations if this is an open Basin only make you mitigate for post-development versus pre-development flows for a 25-year event if it's a closed Basin then we need to mitigate for the volume for the hundred-year event but you're telling me this is a you're telling me this is an open Basin I don't know I'm going to ask the gentleman that just spoke if he has an opinion on the matter as well but I understand thank you Jason Baker again I've been sworn in um the only followup comment those are exactly my questions Mr Moody is you know are we going to use a 25 year for the design of the 100 year um I will also point out in the County's comprehensive plan section 5.1.4 table 10.4 uh under item buildings D if you're going to have uh employment SLS service centers uh you have to do the 100 plus oneyear storm for a 24-hour rain event that's what it calls for that's in the in the County's comprehensive plan so it kind of defaults you to the 100e plus one no well that regards the elevation of the building I'm more concerned about the storm the gentleman Mr poorak showed pictures of a flooded site it's this engineer's contention that this water has an outlet it has some place to go what I want to know is does this site drain or does it hold water like a bowl yeah I would agree with I saw a flood plane map that makes it look like it holds water like a bowl other than some man-made little ditch that goes down and under the street and that was a cent my question does that ultimately get to King Lake it actually goes towards me I live in Lake stop stop I understand the clerk cannot pick up everybody speaking from the audience so we need to have one speaker here and one speaker at the podium right thank you you've answered my question thank you all right thank you very much all right and who's next speaker anybody else have questions let you come up and get up to the front here so you can get a jump on it my name is David Torino I live at 9350 Kenton Road of already this war in uh traffic traffic is terrible coming down Elum Road when you turn on the Canton I try to get the county to get that straightened out so you can turn off faster because there's a bunch of holes there they're not going to touch it so you take a chance of getting killed on that road all the time because people go 60 M hour down that road it's a 30 mph road now you're talking about putting all these apartments in all these was supposed to be single family homes let's be honest they just want to dump it all on us I had to have 12 acres to build my house he's got 12 acres most probably everybody that lives on that Lake got 12 acres now you want to stick a big apartment building so I can look at it and talking about Watershed let's talk about it my land I bought it I mow it every year every year I mow my property my property has been flooded ever since they started the Lagoon that's a long time you know why because they're dumping up all the water on my land my land was for flooding only when the Hurricanes came it went through 3 months later dry a bone my land you can't even dig a hole anymore you guys are killing me and now they want to start a new development right across the road from me they're going to build that up too they're going to end up flooding these guys I know they will because the water's got to go somewhere they've already flooded me you seen that nice picture of that that road where where all that water was me guys you're not right somebody told me I wouldn't get a drop of water is a commissioner Other M comes out there somebody dropped the ball the guy that come out the that developed the the prop he said man I can help you you know what happened the developers told him to shut his mouth that's what happened guys got you got to think before you're doing the stuff you're killing us and as far as Parks let's talk about Parks we're going to be on the other side of all this beautiful stuff like the parts they sold when they were developing eperson Ranch not for us there're nothing there for us I'm an older person I got to go way down to the park down there instead of having to park my own Community y'all you give me a dirt road you give me 12 acres to build on and then you tell me you're going to do all this on the side of me and you're going to kill me does that seem fair I mean I was all right with single family homes you guys are you're overdoing it okay thank you yes ma'am the some already yes and I'm not sworn so okay do you swear or testimony you're about to help me so help me God thanks thank you one of the things that I was thinking about as we were talking through this that I think has kind of gotten lost in the mishos is that this project was actually sort of like a demonstration project for the entire State and I know the legislature is about to have a report card on the connected city project project as a model and I think it is really um shortsighted to then say oh guess what we forgot to make a bunch of changes and yeah you guys go ahead and talk about that as a model that other counties can then follow that model but we're just going to go ahead and change almost half of what we talked about in terms of how this rolls out and what we designate as different portions of those connected cities so while it's easy for for us to look at oh yeah let's just make quick Solutions I think that there are larger implications to what you're doing that should be considered as well and so I hope you'll take those things to heart and really look at what's going on I also think that um we have a problem with vigilance in our County and a lot of things get permitted and then we just sort of out of sight out of mind and we don't pay attention to whether or not those things are being implemented as you all ask for them to be and we have a large problem of that ongoing both at the county level and in our municipalities so I would encourage you to maybe look at putting in some guard rails as we go forward and move into how we are going to continue to develop this County thank you all right thank you very much Nancy Haywood 34110 a nice place Mr Moody you're on the right track I think you all do need to go ahead and give these people their park this goes along with what I was saying earlier you're up here approving things that the developers are not doing so therefore we are losing you shouldn't be they shouldn't you shouldn't be approving things and then letting the developers do something else completely you're you're taking away from the people again how can we trust our government if it's proving lies basically thank you okay yes David Mr chairman and Planning Commission I I didn't want to bring it up today because it's uh the cart would be ahead of the horse but we are having internal leadership discussions and providing a part in this area I don't have any official capacity to make an announcement but I don't want the public nor the Planning Commission to think that we're just sitting on our hands we are we are working on something right now very good thank you David okay who's next anybody said they WebEx Mr chair we do have somebody on WebEx you would like to take them next Tera Castro you should be able to unmute yourself and speak well go ahead let me try to um sorry I've been feeling kind of under the weather so I'm would best be home than to be in your presence but I do appreciate you giving me the time what I hear on this meeting today is a bunch of do excuse me Tara have you been sworn no okay let's get care of that do you swear or the testimony you're about to give the truth so you yes okay thank you and your address is what 26445 Lawrence Avenue in Wesley Chapel Florida 33544 okay so first of all thank you continue thank you today just watching this meeting it's definitely a dog and pony show of who's running this government in our County just a disgusting makes me frustrated I want to touch on a few things I only got a few minutes but I want to bring your attention to the document from the Pasco County impact study that was submitted with this plan did you see at the bottom where it says the percent of of the school and at the 20 we were over Max Capacity in 2023 to 202 4 for the elementary 152% middle school was [Music] 138% in Wesley Capital High School 127% they want to add more and their ment it appears their mentality is just a few percent more won't matter again it boils down to the money and the greed and not anything else about the infrastructure is this really fair to Max the kids out at the Builder's Revenue talk about infrastructure the roads we already touched on that we can't handle it however it makes me wonder what type of traffic impact stud is being used who's reading this who's understanding it the number of fatalities here in Pasco County just in the last month that should have Bren you guys up the roads can't handle it when was the last fire station School proposed to you guys I haven't seen one of those requests come across for planning where are those impact fees going do we need an independent investigation or an audit wouldn't it be nice to have a fire station that could service these places in a more timely fashion than 20130 minutes wouldn't it be nice where schools can handle the increase in population expansion of growth definitely not no 20 120% again the planning and development thought of the app and they don't think of the infrastructure they're these guys in planning and development are making calls and are they are they or are they being bullied by these lawyers and these Builders to approve and to send them up but the bottom line is you guys are the ones that are looking foolish in our eyes because you're the ones that are approving all these and these guys are the same people that think we're playing apps that they can push on a picture and it's GNA just move here this is the dog and pony show we got going on here in Pasco I just also want to touch one more thing the layout does not I'm sorry sorry but the infrastructure I'm just going to go the infrastructure needs to be prior to any more buildings and if you've also watched the story on channel 13 just last week it about the housing market being oversaturated now you're going to add more home in my house has valued more than 50% in the last few years and you're going to add more homes is this the live life act that's supposed to depreciate my values and sure help my taxes go down you guys have a good day thanks so much for taking me okay uh Chris do you have any comments about the schools sure so uh this current school year we just opened Kirkland Ranch K8 MH which is helping the uh capacity out in the Wesley Chapel area uh it's actually a magnet K8 so it's pulling from that whole area and has reduced the overcrowding at watergrass elementary wesle Chapel Elementary some at waitman middle take a couple years for that to um come to full fruition mhm uh certainly that hasn't fixed the whole problem but um we are currently looking at you know what the next High School um will be in the area um where we the good thing is we have quite a bit of land that we've already secured MH and so we we continue to work through uh where that uh high school capacity will be uh We've added um capacity to West sepher Hills Elementary which we're in the process of currently Remodeling and so probably in the next couple years we'll be doing a rezoning to help help uh balance some of those populations out M between West Seer Woodland Elementary probably New River Elementary uh which is in the Wesley Chapel area as well as Chester Taylor and so yeah I think that's uh where we are certainly not always timely where we where we meet it exactly and we don't have any overc capacity but um you know a lot of folks may not realize but back prior to the penny for Pasco in 2003 2004 almost every school in Pasco County was overc capacity MH and um we had some schools that were double their capacity and certainly we haven't fixed everything but currently overall if you take all of our schools together we are operating at 80 to 90% of capacity mhm um and it also might be surprising that we only grew by about 200 students in the entire County this year I mean certainly we see growth going on but it has not resulted in the number of students certainly we have schools in in high growth areas that are growing but um overall countywide yeah um it's a bit surprising so yeah that's shocking yeah yes but anyway to answer the question we we um again Kirkland Ranch K is the newest school there which has provided some relief but we're working on what the next schools will be in there okay good deal okay so it's uh not as bleak a picture as it was painted yeah okay thank you thank you very much I know you guys do a good job over there thank you so and as uh David mentioned um in addition to the impact fee both in uh connected City and vop there is an additional Sur search charge to help us um acquire land and make those improvements right okay so there was no one else in need to speak yes sir speak yes SCH you need need to come up to the front here so we need you yet you haven't been sworn you SAR yes okay any we need your name and address I'm Charles car c y my address is 16033 wards court date City 335 two three of them and Incorporated thank this being up to schools I'm a substitute teacher here often go to waitman Middle it's been there I believe 30 years you believe it or not it's had 11 portables for 30 years still has 11 Portables that are falling apart the county is ignoring District this school and and I understand that the high school at The Wire Grass Ranch has 700 students in Portables at high school alone the school situation is out of control and overcrowded we need to do something about it but those are two schools that I'm familiar with also sub to K8 which is a real very nice school and they don't have eighth graders yet so they have room to expand that's a very nice school but what about W in the middle thank you okay thank you gr any comment sure just in addition to that um waitman middle has had some relief with the K8 will again no eighth grade this year so as those students move up it'll get an additional we don't believe that'll be um totally uh under capacity with that so we are actually meeting later this month to talk about the possibility of adding Wings to some schools you mentioned Wire Grass Ranch High we have over the years reduced that um boundary by building new schools such as Cypress Creek um and have reduced that capacity but it's still over capacity so we're again as I mentioned earlier we're looking at another High School in that area to help solve that problem Andor build a wing are we able to do anything about improving the Portables or well what's the situation there we have Portables all across the county um sometimes we don't once we provide some relief we don't automatically remove those Portables unless we need them elsewhere um none of our our maintenance department does a very good job of maintaining them and so if there is a problem at a portable the principal needs to report and our maintenance department will go out and fix them okay um accordingly we don't we don't we're not going to have our students in spaces that aren't kept up to date or at least kept in good working order okay I need to okay stim yes I do my name is Don Lea and my address is 8342 fussel Drive uh west of CH Florida 33545 live over in Lakeside of States what we're talking about I have just one clarifying question to ask in that as it relates to the Tall Timbers mpud and that is with the Canton road construction in that that's been identified as the main Ingress and egress for the Tall Timbers mud I believe and if so is the Kenton road construction development going to go all the way down and extend beyond Elum all the way to overpass as is shown in the road overviews and the reason why I asked that is because Elum road which I live on fussel it's right off of elim elim has turned into a highway and and it's you know it's a two-lane road that's really not engineered to handle that so my question is are we going to get some relief by having kanton road built properly and extend it all all your coms that's it all right thank you uh Terry pto's Planning Development economic growth with regard to Kenton Road there are projects that are going to build Kenton uh All the Way South to overpass there's a couple of muds um the road is currently under design at the moment uh and we are working on having the developer um of the Kenton mpud also construct the segment that is between Elum and overpass uh the existing Kenton Road both on the south end which would be on the east or west side of Kenton and the existing Kenton Road that will be on the North End which will be on the W east side of Kenton um will continue to exist and provide Frontage Road access to the residents that are along King Lake along the front or along the north leg of Kenton and the residents that are uh just north of the Elum Road Elum Kenton intersection area on the west side so they they should continue to have access um through the frontage roads that'll be there so Terry just to clarify the answer to the question because I'm looking at the conditions of approval this project at Ply and Kenton MPD are required to build it to Elum according to the conditions I think the question was from elim to overpass cuz those three mpds do not appear to be responsible for constructing it south of Elum I think I think he's asking about the gap between um Elum and overpass which which I'm reading these conditions do not this Mudd and Kenton and ailly are not responsible for that South going south of Elum that's currently being being worked into the Kenton da for the Kenton mpud development to build the py between elim and overpass okay so that's a upcoming yes so we're going to figure out a away Kenton MP to extend it south of elim yes on that all right as that Gap I just want to make sure because if somebody only read these conditions they would not know that right because that we've been working on it this last literally this last three weeks okay all right does that answer your question okay all right was anybody else okay pardon me no we don't break rules here all right we could go on and on forever if I did that so you know everybody want a third chance you do need to give the opin rebuttal one once we've heard from the public so I think we've done that Miss applicant thank you Shelley Johnson again 6400 Madison Street and I have been sworn and I have been listening to all the comments um I know that um our civil engineer is on the phone and would like to respond to some of the storm water questions and comments and the discussion that just um was going on um outside of the fact that you know obviously this is an open Basin and it's going to be designed um in accordance with Swift Mud and County regulations in order to get permits um but he can you know add whatever additional you know information questions there are to that um I did want to focus traffic um this development won't go in unless Kenton Avenue is developed because there's no access unless Kenton Avenue goes in whether it be they they ultimately build it or um you know the three M PDS participate and get it built um Tindle not proposed as an access for this site it it is being realigned to the north um as Joel was asking about a little bit earlier and you know that's going to create that that East West connection over to marada and um and further west the other way um I did want to focus a little bit about the community Hub because I did hear several times comments um from the residents saying that apartments are not permitted in the community Hub if you look at the actual um schedule of uses that was had been up for a while um this afternoon it specifically does permit multif family um which is apartment and town home attached which is what we are proposing hosing um the apartment is vertically integrated use John had asked if that was required it's pursuant to condition 49 it is required to be vertically integrated so it's not just going to be a bunch of Apartments it's going to be apartments with uses underneath such as home occupations um you know entrepreneurship the type of things that you know connected city is trying to encourage through job growth that's really what connected city is is pushing for um so those will be vertically integrated they're not just going to be your standard you know Standalone Apartments um and some of that vertical integration you'll you know in the conditions of approval it actually requires that a minimum of 12,000 Square ft of that um vertical integration space whether it be office or retail actually serve offsite um it can't serve on-site so um the conversions the conversions you know are in accordance with the the comp plan they actually permit um only conversions from residential to retail or office and and and not a conversion back again going to that you know job growth element um I did just want to quote a couple policies because I do think it's important again to reiterate that what is being proposed I understand you know there's some confusion with regards to how it's set out and identified in the um you know in some sections of the of the plan um with regards to the park and all that I've listened all that but it it does permit what we are doing the goals and objectives do permit it um we are permitted to do the mixed use the vertical integration the multif family the apartment the town home those are all permitted uses under the under the current comp plan for connected cities policy L do 4.5 which is the land use and design section of connected cities um asks that there be encourage it's supposed to encourage flexibility and promote a mix of uses in all of the zones um and it is you know it's it specifically says you should establish a performance-based zoning for the connected cities overlay um policy lud 4.6 which is again the land use and design policy for connected City says provide mixed use areas within all Spa zones of connected City not just one um and that's why when you look at that and I understand the confusion but when you look at that list the only prohibited use on that list is industrial that's the only thing you cannot do in community Hub right now um outside of that you know what we're doing is permitted so I just kind of wanted to clear that up for the record I don't again I don't know if my um civil engineer wants to comment any further on the storm water but we're here to answer any further questions do you excuse me we don't speak from the floor I got a few questions I don't know if they're for you or for staff but I'll go through them here as we go through the approval conditions approval condition 16 and 17 what I heard you say was is that Kenton Road would be constructed as part of this project prior to any units is that correct so it has the standard condition that the rest of the mpds have on it which is the only access to the site is going to be through Kenton Avenue so in order for this development to go Kent Avenue is going to have to be in the way it's set up right now through the various MPD conditions and the development agreement that they're working on for the Kenton MPD which is south of this site the goal is all three of the developments actually participate in in putting in that road from um you know all the way down to overpasses they just discussed um but this site specifically says that if those sites don't come in and they don't build that road you know you're going to build the whole thing um and that's what our conditions call for so I guess my question there's a or they can shall construct or Bond as part of the language yeah the standard language so so if you Bond the improvements how are you getting access to your development yeah I mean at the end of the day my question because it's the standard it's the standard I mean that's the standard condition at the end of the day this this couldn't be I mean it is it is the standard condition that you've see in all of the mpds that because it's it's prior to their plat so yeah it's prior to plat it's not a common when they get their plat approval that they're bonding they're doing the construction of the infrastructure sort of after they've gotten their plat approval pursuant into a bond that's not an uncommon scenario okay they can't sell the Bots without right right okay um my next one and again this is questions I don't know if this is for you or for staff but in condition 18 where it talks about the signal and the warrant study and if not warranted and it starts to talk about proportionate share is is that proportionate share for this project is that determined or is that to be determined when does that get determined it just looks like it's pretty open-ended condition that was my question well I mean it's prior or concurrent with issuing the third the three the building permit for the 301st dwelling unit um yeah they'll have to do a conduct a signal warrant study to see if it's warranted to have an actual signal at Kenton and elim I follow that and it says if the signal is warranted you'll construct it if it's not already there right but if it's not warranted you're going to be responsible to pay proportionate share funds to the county I mean what is that standard that that was proportionate share funds aren't established and and why why do we have to wait um I can I can ask Mr C if he wants to weigh in on that but I suspect it is because there's two other developments that access that signal and so their proportion share is going to be dependent on the proportion sure of the other two but are already approved right yeah I I don't know why there's not I have seen this condition where there's a specific amount inserted but that being said I don't okay if you if you calculated it today but the time the signal is built it may cost twice that yeah I'm not saying dollars I'm saying percent I mean Oh you mean the percentage percentage okay I'll ask some point if the applicant's comfortable with it it just seems like it's an open-ended condition well and you could get to the end and they say you're % well I think staff is Rel usually fair about this I mean I think they do do the percentages based on we've never we've never had major disputes about proportion to share okay but if Mr clear wants to weigh in on that I'm happy to have him add to what I just said David said it correctly warranted then we will you know have a uh claws in there we can do that at time of site plan as well when the Traer is because they're still supposed to do an access management analysis when they come in for a site plan so the study that they did which is a timing and phasing study at time of zoning it really um it's not the finality so the finality is when they do an access management other things may come up at that time which they will be responsible for but if it's not warranted at that 301st trigger then yes we do assign a percentage based on the number of trips that each of those projects generate okay all right um again Essen you're probably the one to answer this anyways condition 24 talks about RightWay dedication where is the RightWay for the Kenton portion adjacent to this project come from there 114 ft of RightWay where does that come from because that's outside of the limits of your property correct yeah and I just don't I don't see it identified on the maps I do have our transportation planner also available if she wants to answer that question uh I can also answer that really quickly it's coming from the the facility site on the west uh we talked to them prior to this imput even coming to public hearing and they agreed that they would dedicate the full portion for that road okay all right the next question condition 49 item C in the mixed use standards there's language in there it says the maximum setback from the proposed Canton Road and Timber Road shall be 10 ft it's talking about the apartment buildings so that's saying the building setback for those apartment buildings can be no more than 10 ft yes um that is correct like I mentioned earlier this is an urban typical that has a 16t sidewalk on it so we want to get those building as close as possible so that office ground floor is fronting actually on Kinton for people to walk in Access the I mean I know we we're starting to get into the weeds here in nuds and I get it there's binding concept plan The Binding concept plan also includes it shows a 10-ft landscape buffer has that been determined that that's the landscape buffer required adjacent to that road um my question and where I'm going with that is I would think that would probably be a 15ft buffer on that road so this this condition is going to cause a problem it could correct it could we could do an alternative standard for the Landscaping to make sure that or a variation for an mut to remove that right now but then that would allow for the building to go when you go back to the binding concept plan The Binding concept plan shows the building much further away than 10 ft in the road because there's a line there for a 10t landscape buffer so that's that's where that question was coming from I think there's some conflict there okay how do I mean is there a way to resolve that I mean do we need to propose some kind of I mean my understanding and I haven't looked at it in detail is that the the typical suction that and and the way it's been laid out is in accordance with whatever the connected City design standard is for the roads I mean if there's an issue with regards to something on The Binding plan versus getting continued you know whatever the the commission's decision is today obviously we you know we'll take a look at that you know before the board of County Commissioners and address it to make sure there's not any conflict but we probably need to figure out what St inent is do they do they want a landcap 15ot landscape buffer from this road Mr J's point is if you have a 15ot landscape buffer it's almost impossible for you to have a 10 foot set set or maximum set back so we Planning Commission could direct one of the two change yeah but I don't know what staff's intent is I mean again if you want to put up the binding concept plan The Binding concept plan does show a land 10- foot landscape buffer so maybe that's the intent but then again it shows that building significantly behind there's a significant space between that 10-ft landscape buffer in that building that real tiny print there to the left side of the building says 10- foot landscape buffer so my engineer mind wants to say that that building is for 40 ft if if it's the scale yeah it's not showing right up against the landscape off I'm sorry I was talking to Patrick for a second so um can we just give a quick recap to yeah to the to the left side of the mixed use building there mhm there's some real fine print that you cannot read at this scale it says if you zoom in it says 10-ft landscape buffer is the intent to provide a 10-ft landscape buffer on that parcel it is not the intent of that is that's not the intent that's not the intent the the intent is to bring the the buildings as close up to the road and sidewalk as possible okay that in the typical for the K Road if if this project was to come in what would be the landscape buffer required on that parcel uh so just connected city has its own Land Development code and it has its own buffering requirements whereas our uh regular code is an ABCDE e f g buffer connected city is 1 12 3 4 um and I can't pinpoint off the top of my head what those are just because you know bouncing back and forth between them um but I think generally what the feeli they're going for here is a more walkable Street as opposed to you know most of our basic Land Development code talks about is separating uses right we our regular code is Suburban it talks about okay between residential and Commercial we want a certain buffer to prevent these from really interacting with each other uh this intent again is to bring the building Clos to the frontage uh have it more walkable so a 10t or 15t or or a an intense landscape buffer doesn't get us there so I think the intent is to not necessarily have a buffer that you would normally expect in a Suburban environment so sounds like the correction is that to remove that from the the landscape buffer needs to be removed from The Binding concept plate sure where is it say that it's in it's a real fine print a real small print there to the left of the building doesn't that say 10 foot landcap says 10t building setback is that what that says okay I thought it said 10 foot landscape buffer when you zoom in it gets blurry that's why well I mean if if that's the max why isn't the building shown on that line can't be any further back than that why isn't that building showing on that line on the binding concept plan because it's The Binding concept plan is intended to be a general layout I think if if they came in for actal engineer plans we' ask them to bring that as close as possible well you that contradicts the first word of that sentence yeah so so Bing binding concept so and I had this fight with staff about The Binding concept plan um because in my mind binding means binding their mind is mean something slightly less than binding but umon but I think Planning Commission could if you want to approve this and I don't know if you do or not you could impose you could you could approve with a direction that the building be moved to match the setback to to to to the to the limits of the setback line I'm fine with that and I understand the intent I just wanted to make sure w're creating conflicts that's all so I'm okay with it but I mean staff okay that The Binding concept plan doesn't show what the conditions reflect as a it's it's a concept right and you're bound to the concept there are thresholds that we can make uh uh adjustments to at the preliminary site plan stage to make sure that the final site plan once it's been fully engineered is true to the concept plan that's being demonstrated at the public hearings kind of like the comp plan but not withstanding that if Planning Commission wants to approve this with a requirement that that building be moved you have that authority to make that party recommendation I don't care I just feel like there's I feel like there's varying definitions being thrown around for a binding concept plan and what is to include there those terms are so so okay that's all I have that's the issue John you next I don't have any more questions Matt just just one for the for the engineer you mentioned you know 25 year 100e storm had done Geotech what assumptions did you make to size those ponds for this concept plan yeah is your engineer available Eric are you still there he was on my BS here can you hear me yes thank you so the p question did you hear the question Eric yes the question was why the ponds were placed they are placed the ponds are located at the existing Wetland locations we feel it's best Eric Eric Eric stop that wasn't the question the question was what is assumptions did you make I think you want to repeat the question yeah the question was what assumptions did you make to determine the overall size of those pawns the sizing of the pawns isn't final it's a preliminary concept without having Geotech I can't finalize preliminary concept why isn't it 5 Acres it's 5.17 it seems like that some math in there probably what the cat we Quantified the pond areas if it's just if it's that's just the area that was left there that's what I'm wondering is just what how we got to some Assumption of size of it's where that came from the the pawns were maximized uh to create to to provide the most amount of uh runoff storage um they are not final they were placed in their given locations because that's where the Wetland limits are roughly they're subject to change there was no deep thought there there's no magical formula that I created to determine the pond sizes okay does that create an issue with our bindings like plan again well this goes back to the issue of yeah I mean there's a so there's there's a condition that deals with the binding concept plan I think it's condition 70 which talks about the fact that staff can approve deviations from The Binding concept plan as long as the substan of intent purpose is achieved so I think that's what sta is referring to is that they can approve small deviations from that plan based on Final engineering so that's probably why they would argue that you know the building being 10t they can fix that when site plans come in or the size of the pawns as long as this General layout is achieved Okay you Okay Matt yep that good okay anything else from up here DK Chris Chris all right nothing further is there motion just gave gamble back you want to make [Laughter] one you didn't ask it too good time let me just tell you where I'm at with it we'll talk maybe maybe we'll make a motion what I see is a special planning area referring to Connected City that got done on a piece by piece by piece basis rather than a regionalized planning exercise and in the overall scheme of things I think the Mark was missed all that being said I don't think you can punish the applicant for the sins of the past and I see that a lot in government sometimes too I think we need to be real careful I know there's going to be discussions this year about storm water regulations and I've watched this in pelis county and if they're listening when when pelis County's 99% developed telling the last 1% of the undeveloped land owners that they need to Triple the amount of storm water retention on their project isn't going to solve the sins of the past so I don't think denying this project is going to solve the problems the the overall large scale planning problems of connected cities and I don't know how you fix those I have a question for d I gave a little bit of thought before I came here about that connected city has its own Land Development code can that Land Development code be tweaked changed fixed to come back and address things like District parks and trails is is is that doable is that doable at this point in time or is it too far gone so a landel code can be amended there's no question you process land amendments all the time the issue you have is making them retroactive to projects that have already been approved now if they only have a zoning approval right and that's what I'm talking about um and they haven't don't have if they have a site plan approval it's probably too late at that point to be changing their regulations um if they only have a zoning approval yes in theory you could amend the regulations where you do have some issues though and we saw this when we did the car wash changes is that what happens when you have an mped that has something that's in it that is contrary to your new regulations and then you get to reconcile that conflict so um but that aside as a general rule you can amend you can make your land development regulations more stringent than maybe what the zoning originally permitted if that makes sense does that open up the county for lawsuits from those who have already been entitled that's a difficult question for me to answer I mean the the Harris act does does have does create a potential cause of action when you basically you know take away somebody's uses um but there's you know I don't think that case law is developed enough for me to say definitively to you that that it's going to result in liability just because you change your regulations it it's a it's a case by casee scenario and I can't really answer that until I saw the actual regulation that we were changing has applied to a particular piece of property but even if it did did the Harris act has a mechanism where the property owner can submit a request to the county and say what you've done in this new regulation is enormously burdened by entitlements and we can then we have an opportunity to address it fix it give them a variance give them something to address that potential impact if they don't like what we propose then they can sue us so there the haris ACT is a process where we can try to address this situations you're talking about okay so as a general rule I don't I don't think the county should not do new Land Development regulations out of fear of liability where where you have the the biggest risk of a harat claim is when you basically down Zone somebody's property in other words you say your property was entitled to 30 units and we're now giving you one okay that that's probably the clearest case of a haris Act dimunition but where you get into things like new parking regulations or new stor water regulations that's less that's let me tell you where what I'm thinking where I'm going to go in Connected City this is a special Planet area and although we've developed a special connected City Land Development code maybe connected city is where a form based code would have made more sense here we are arguing about whether a building should be up on the street whether a a mixed use should be vertically integrated in other words what the form of development should look like instead of our text based Land Development code which is more applicable to our run-of-the-mill Suburban development which this wasn't intended to be my thinking and I'm sure well I can safely say it Mr tw's left the building so he won't attack me on the way out of the building but he waiting he'll just get me next meeting that's um seems to me like maybe there needs to be a moratorium in Connected City while we figure out how to fix the Land Development code to better achieve the ultimate goals of connected City all that being said when it comes to this case I find no reason to deny it just because the goals of connected City have not been achieved I don't think it's this applicant's fault that those goals haven't been achieved they're they're surrounded by other much much larger approved MP UDS which I don't know whether it was the Planning Commission the County Commission the planning staff wasn't paying attention didn't achieve all of these objectives but I don't think we're going to fix the problems of connected City by denying this application so I will make the move the motion to approve this application and then when we're done I'd like to make a second motion can I assume the motion is with the prior amendments that we made to the commissions yes that would include all the prior amendments that we had during this discussion and my second motion won't have anything to do with this case can you have a second let me ask a question about the conditions real quick we and I'll defer to you all who do more site development than I do we changed condition 50 that last sentence we changed any flood plane storm water compensation and or Wetland mitigation required can be off site can they can you do flood plan mitigation off site well to be clear the change we made was as it say shall be located within the residential portion of the MPD or an offsite mitigation bank so it's either it's or so I have seen instances where flood plane mitigation has been done off site however the Water Management District is very particular about that issue in that the mitigation Could Happen offsite but it needs to be in the same hydrologic water shed because the mitigation in another Watershed isn't going to mitigate F fill in this watered that's a rare occurrence does it happen yes I think combination of the two I think what the intent of condition 50 is is that the service ready site area needs to be ped ready you need to be able to build it and if that means they've got a nextx 10 Town Homes out of their Town Home Development to make that storm water Pond accommodate additional flood plane compensation then that's what they need to do and I'm satisfied with condition 50 yeah as long as it says both that makes sense so I think the motion we added an or to that but could it be an Andor could could be a combination of two to have some mitigation on site as well as some credit added to the you want to change it to Andor or I think wasn't the motion or I think the motion was over the gramar where you wanted to say Andor I don't think that's in end of the world if you wanted I don't remember who made that motion but if you want to remake the motion to say Andor an off-site mitigation area I will happily amend my motion to include can we get a second for that amend yes I think I second I having a hard time following what's going already motion on the floor wasn't seconded yet no no this was that was for the the motion to approve the project this was earlier we made the motion to amend that language he's going back saying the motion that I put on the floor I am willing to amend in what Mr he's amending a prior motion he made previously all right this is a sub motion yeah so we have a motion and a sub motion second uh all in favor did get a second yeah I second so to be clear I was a motion to just amend condition 15 now yes now back to your original motion say and or get to the point here okay back to your now we have let's go back to his original motion which is to approve the project as amended previously right and then we were looking for the second and I think Matt had a question question Matt did you get the answer you I did okay so are you seconding the motion Matt no do we have a second then I'll second the motion because I think we need to move on with this motion we have to come to a way to solve this problem and I think your next motion if I can just assume that your next motion is going to have to be have to deal with the you know you know amending that the issues the issues that we talked about so so we have a motion we have a second any further discussion yeah I guess first I mean I John I I completely agree I mean I to to put the burden on this property owner and this developer to fix prior sins is is not fair my problem with this one is is I think there's a lot of things that are outlined in the land use that are not necessarily met with what's oppos here in the zoning that that's that's my opposition and that's why I'm I'm that's why I didn't second the motion in the first place so okay any other discussion on the motion okay so we have a motion in a second no further discussion all in favor of the motion signify by saying I I okay roll call Jamie gerardy Nay Christopher P hi John Moody hi Matthew Ms n Derek pet hi Chris Williams hi chairman Charles Gray nay uh the motion carried 4 to three okay all right your next motion John I'd move to recommend to the Board of Commissioners that there be a moratorium imposed in Connected City for one year while we figure out how to implement Land Development regulations that better achieve the goals I'll second that okay we have a motion in a second all in favor signify by saying I can I just get can I get a Clarity on the motion because I is it a recommendation to is it a moratorium on new rezonings in Connected City or complete moratorium no I want to change the Land Development codes so that would be a moratorium on development in Connected City so so that would include site plan approvals site plan approval building permits yes sir everything yes while we fix the Land Development let's have a yeah so so really what we're recommending that the board adopt a moratorium right okay just in Connected City in Connected City cor yeah yeah okay can we have a roll call vote please Jamie Gerard nay Christopher P hi John Moody hi Matthew Ms hi derekl hi Chris Williams hi chairman Charles Ray hi so David Engel and Terry you're goingon to have to figure out how to best convey that recommendation to the board count of Commissioners they're probably listening well I I don't know if you're going to have to just do an agenda item to the board because I I'm not sure it makes sense to tie it to this particular application because it sounds like the concern is beyond this particular application no it would and I need a little bit of clarity and definition as to what the more term constitutes is it future site plan submittals this I I just that's the question I just asked the me the motion was a complete moratorium it it was new rezonings new site plans new building permits any further development in Connect City but it wouldn't affect what was already Perman no it would that's why I asked the question what I'm trying to get at is that I think we need a year pause since more are limited to a year for somebody to go back and fix the Land Development code have workshops fix the Land Development code as it as it affects connected City it has its own special Land Development code to address the issues I think the public has legitimate concerns we've got this whole issue of District parks and whether there was trails that were supposed to be there and you know there needs to be some clarity no I I understand that but I understand Mr engel's reservation I can explain it a little better okay so by you applying it to everything including building permits that means that even poor Mrs Smith who happened to buy a lot in Mara who was about to to build her home is not going to be able to get a building permit because of that moratorium so historically the board has not applied moratoriums to that late stage of development where you have sort of innocent third parties that are not the developer that are now being held up because of that moratorium okay well I had an additional question Mr Goldstein so is this for opted in projects or projects have are opted out for example pas Town centers is in the connected City employment area they didn't opt in and they just put in the problem see Mr angle there in lies the problem they put in1 we're going to have a special planning area but you can maybe be in it and you can maybe not be wait a second that I think that's not the context of the question the context of my question is they already installed in Reliance on their approvals $100 million worth of road infrastructure and their in process building a building you're going telling me that they should Hal that all that construction well that was a re that was a recommendation to the board they can choose to go with the recommendation or they can choose not to go with the recommendation and those are things that I'm sure all of the property owners in Connected City will be coming out there squawking them at squawking about him at but I also hear a lot of residents out here complaining that they got sold they got sold a pretty picture and they didn't get it they're not getting a park they're not getting these nice buildings we got a big Distribution Center coming so and I just wanted to clarify this this is your motion okay so you could and you all voted I just wanted to make sure that Mr engle's on the same page about what the motion entails so the motion is a complete moratorium within the connected City special planning area for a period of time for us to develop new Land Development regulations is that that's that's what you moved my intent was that we don't process any site plan approvals we don't do any more rezonings okay that's why I asked you the question because there's a big difference between no I am not trying to stop Mrs Smith who's already bought a lot in marada marada is done it's or it's a done deal okay so probably you need to remake your motion you want a moratorium on new zonings and site plan approvals within the connected City Planning area until we've developed these Land Development regulations is that more accurate that would be a more accurate statement yes okay let's do let's do that as a new motion so move okay I second it I second it before I'll second that okay um motions made any further discussion of the motion not all in favor signify by saying I I oos like sign n all right motion carries that was Mr J it was yes quick question the motion that was done previously does that need to be do we do we to revote to resend that one let's do a motion to Res to resend Mr M prior motion resend my previous motion I second in favor you are you good now Mo car yeah yes we were sending the prior one thank you okay so getting back to my original question Mr Engle or Mr PTO is this something you would just put on as like a separate agenda item to the board well I'm going to discuss that with the County Administrator first is how we're going to present it what you all do with the recommendation is up to you and the County administrator or you could say we don't agree with it but since they made a motion I think you need to present it to the board somehow no no I I agree okay regardless of my feelings about it I'm going to present it so once the clerk issues a draft um record of this meeting and has a precise language in that motion I'm going to present it to the County Administrator and ask how I can convey okay play on the tape roll the tapes well I think it should be probably some like a regular discussion item for the board so they don't but you put it however you and the County Administrator decideed but as long as it gets to the board somehow that's why Denise here okay I think we're done with that item right yeah okay you leaving okay Liam is there one more item we do have another item and I believe it is P9 which is a discussion on Accessory dwelling units thank you I don't know if you want to take a 5 minute recess or minute recess okay yeah let's take a five minute recess please he I [Music] [Music] [Music] I [Music] fig for [Music] [Music] [Music] the and so we'll be [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] about accessory dwell units and the new ordinance that we plan on moving for with relatively soon uh in the last Planning Commission in dve City there was a govern plan amendment that was moving forward to help support that which I believe all of you supported um more detail discussion on access Cod that's we're here I will also [Music] say so uh here to answer any questions um have you G have time to per uh the current draft coordinance and if so uh any questions you like to try and help answer for any discussion pleas invite me to specifically [Music] cover it's being removed yeah so uh this version that you are seeing is based off the work we probably did a week ago in that week uh there are some changes that you don't see here but there is a condition there about architectural controls and all that kind of stuff um we're going to remove that in its entir from ads and the architectural controls in terms of our our current MPD of approval [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] yeah so we could potentially that but the reason haven't touched yet still piece in terms of dimensional standards you can apply foral exception dimensional standards so let's say you know our current is 900 for a someone to do 1200 they could apply special exception one so one a through D are set in stone for just outright you're allowed to do it but if you want a not if you want special exception yes you can get above 900 square feet by special exception if the situation is appropriate as being so by the plan [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] noty like but fix Val [Music] [Music] found so that doesn't necessarily or some type of sure yeah and again building code is generally not where I know most about so maybe some official howal [Music] [Music] [Music] okay all right thank you for catching [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] the [Music] May question there I don't think we were planning on having any sort of Transportation analysis tied to the Adu so that's probably something we weren't intending to look at and then uh in terms of storm water and that type of thing um you know any any structure over 500 square feet when it's uh going through permitting already it's required to have some sort of plan shown building department so if it were in an area that would impact water department that could [Music] help now I go in and I go into an ex and let me use the one example to Timber Oaks Basin of special concern or since Mr borac is here at the tank Lake one so we go in and we start building accessory dwelling units in the tank Lake Basin of special concern and now I've created a bunch of storm water runoff 92.2k or whatever the section that requires the grading plan doesn't require somebody provide a storm water management analysis and a retention Pond and designed to the 25e 24hour storm it makes them grade to sight so that they don't create an adverse offsite immediate off-site impact to their neighbor or something and so that was one of my concerns when we had the comp plan discussion last time about adus and especially with them not counting towards density because like I said when the reason that we the reason that we limit density and we look at density in the area is because density has impacts which are associated with it storm water being one of them mhm and I'm fine with how we voted before but I think David brings up a good point I think there needs to be some evaluation of whether the infrastructure of an area is problematic to supporting adus and I'm not suggesting that every Adu applicant should have to come in and do some sort of concurrency analysis it should be that our County staff should identify areas where we have perhaps severely substandard infrastructure that isn't capable of supporting adus like for instance we have a street where we have known low water pressure problems and a 2-in water line maybe that's not the place we want to go add adus whereas any standard subdivision with 8 in water lines running up and down the streets that are capable of supplying fire hydrants water is not a concern sure understood and uh can I just add you under because okay your introductory clause does say adus are not appropriate in every situation due to existing sidey constraints and limitations imposed by these standards so you're sort of recognizing that there could be areas where they're not appropriate yes but then the substan of Standards don't necessarily prohibit them in areas where they may not be appropriate so I think that's just intended provide Clarity that uh when we say that is if you can follow these standards you're generally okay it's just for those people that can't follow those standards we want them to know it's just this location isn't right because of these standards below and I'm looking at your standards and I this is why ultimately the root of my question which is if somebody's adding an Adu on a known substandard flooded Road MH is stff okay allowing that so and I will I think maybe something to help too uh something uh that a lot of people uh bring up when we kind of bring this idea forward to them utilities is is a great example um you know what's the difference between this and an addition to your home right we don't go in and look at every single situation where someone's adding another room to their home and because this in the uh a certain Basin we say you can't as far am i as far as I'm aware that you can't do it so um you know like utilities when we said utilities you know is this going to be an issue with you they said it's another room on a house we don't care if it's attached detached above it's just another room um it's how a lot of people look at it so and I'm not saying no and we I'm not saying we can't look into those things but um I just I I worry about uh coming up with a regulation that would account for all of those potential situations if position is your position is that if it's a 900t addition of any com basically sure a barn uh an addition to your bedroom equivalent of adding a couple rooms and you're not going to necessarily infrastructure impact sure and that's why we're again one of the reasons to handle the density issue is we're we're trying to limit the size of them to 900 square fet uh I believe when the 900 number uh came up previously when that was developed that was something fairly small it's not the size you're not going to have your three-bedroom home you're not going to have kids and as big of an impact on drive through Jasmine Lakes you go through Jasmine Lakes uh you what those houses are they're 900 square ft sure and people did raise families in those and I get a kick out of this I'm actually looking at the introductory statement in the intent and purpose the missing middle housing type our problem with housing types is we don't have any entry level housing types all right it's not that we're missing the middle housing type sure I don't disagree 900 square ft for an Adu is more than generous and I can tell you that there are a lot of families who raise their entire families in 900 square fet or less sure this is really a policy isor I'm not trying to weigh in one way or the other I'm just asking you what your response is if we get a neighbor saying why did you allow an additional Adu on my substandard flooded Road I wanted to know what your response your response is it's the equivalent of add a bedroom sure well how big's a bedroom I'm sorry how big's a bedroom um I don't know off the top of my head I I I've seen different floor PL I mean 10 15 10 by 10 that's 100 150 square ft that's not 900 square ft sure the reason the code wants a drainage plan at 500 square fet is because there is impacts MH right Mr Po yeah we're just trying to um of course as as we do uh balance opinions and preferences to find a good middle ground um we've landed on 900 uh could that potentially go lower sure could it go higher absolutely but currently staff's position is 900 um and you know just based off of don't get me wrong I'm not opposed to it being 900 or 12200 or 2400 MH what I this goes back to the statements that I made during the initial the the comp plan Amendment portion of this these things are not impact L they do have impact they do and there has to be some way of evaluating whether or not their impact is negligible or require some sort of mitigative Strate strategy sure you just start doing this you know I know all the I don't know if there's anybody enough people in Timber Oaks that are here listening to me but Timber Oaks Basin of special concern was never a concern when I was growing up you know when it became a concern became a concern when everybody in Timber Oaks decided to take their 900 squ ft retirement house add another bedroom add a swimming pool widen the driveway to three cars wide I don't want any green grass to mow around my retirement home so now I'm going to put asphalt down and White Rock on top of it just like they did in all the ones in holiday and then we wonder where all the storm water came from they could they continue to do it to the eles sure and this is a this is a a recipe to add to that I'm not saying this is a disaster and I will tell you I support adus but I think there has to be some method of evaluating whether or not they have some impact on the infrastructure and if all of a sudden everybody in the neighborhood decides to have an Adu what am I doing with double the amount of cars in the neighborhood we've already got people complaining about traffic problems there may be a solution I mean it depends on what staff wants to do but I mean in theory you could give some delegated authority to the County Administrator doesn't need to say that in areas with known infrastructure deficiencies that they have the authority to require a special exception for the approval of the Adu I mean you kind of do this a little bit with um I've seen it done with MPS and substantial non-substantial deviations to amendments to mpds there's a catch all at the end of the MPD criteria for what substantial amendment that says that if the County Administrator doesn't need determines it's substantial it's substantial there's some delegated authority to say hey this is a problem I want to get this to go to the board and so I think you in theory could do something similar with this and say give the County Administrator some delegated authority that if there's a known infrastructure deficiency that they have the authority to say that even an Adu under 900 fet requires a special exception to be approved wouldn't we need criteria to Define define what is substandard like in this instance wouldn't we need to know what that is because I might have a different opinion I think that would be helpful I mean you could say no you know I think it would be helpful is maybe if you consult with the other departments Public Works utilities and get some input from them as to where they have known issues now perhaps they have plans to correct issues but if there are areas where there is like I said constant low water pressure problems or sewage pumping stations that are continuously a problem sure for them that maybe maybe it's not good to flood that area with adus until those things can be corrected okay yeah we can and just so you know we we have talked to quite a few departments haven't asked that specific question um but we can definitely Circle back and do that but to answer your question here I don't have a problem if you want to itemize the potential infrastructure deficiency such as you know water pressure you know flooding firefighting water supply I mean water supply I mean I we kind of all know what those things are because I guess those are the same kinds of things that have caused Planning Commission to deny resoning in the past sure um Timber Oaks is a perfect example because we denied the resoning because of the those roads were floody MH um so I I don't where I disagree slightly with Mr Mo I know you have to identify every geographic area of the county where there's no deficiencies but I think if you give the County Administrator design authority to say this one's a problem because of the infrastructure I think it needs to go through the special exception process that probably addresses at least a large part I like your thinking David the the question I have have is more one of practice so they come down I assume if someone wants to build an Adu they go down and they fill out a building permit application that's correct so how does the guy at the that takes in the application at the building department counter know whether or not there was a a known infrastructure problem does that you have to create some other review process building permits get reviewed by zoning right uh there is a team in the building department that looks at zoning issues yes so yes so it's not the zoning department that reviews it it's the building department yeah there there people in bed in the building department that specialize and looking at setbacks and all that kind of stuff and if there's something that they can't handle they'll reach out to the zoning team with planning pdeg to help assist well is there a way Patrick I mean because we have training B is a special concern and we have um criteria for when a road is substandard I mean we have criteria in our code about certain problematic areas of the county or problematic infrastructure deficiencies sure is there a way to tie it to to those sort of objective standards about a substandard road or sub or you know transation of special concern or um I've seen other code references to known flooded flooding areas too I we can look into to that to see if that is something that we can add to this code to to solve issue um we can definitely look into it those are those are all things you can identify up front too right I'm just trying to think is there something that we could point to that it'd be easier for a zoning technician to say hey here this one's maap this one's any map transation of special concern I need to go see whether this one needs a special exception or not I need to go ask Terry almost like another layer on the MPP or something like that is there is there and taking something yeah again I I think it's we would need to identify what those criteria are that make something appropriate important ad Adu location in that area or not again we could do that um but you know just to paint a bigger picture too um because and hearing the last Planning Commission um there are concerns about we're going to be seeing a whole lot of adus in the county pop up um we actually reached out to our neighbors that actually have adus on the books and ask them numbers you know what are you what are you looking at um so uh penel County in the last year roughly 100 uh Hillsboro between 150 and 200 um countywide countywide pulk I think it was 50 Su how long have they been on those rules been on the books um I don't know for each one obviously they've all adopted their ordinances at different times per year numbers per year per total per year per year I'd argue the the areas where the will pop up in Pas would be areas that might have the issues that we're we're talking about what I would tell you is this that's the one who did it legally sure because I can tell you right now and you drive you want to drive in my neighborhood there's a lot of adus out there that may not may or may not fit the definition of this code and there's a lot of ones that are unpermitted well you and you ra that's not endemic just to my neighborhood I can tell you it's all over the place yeah you rais a very good point that's something that the building department deals with on a daily basis is you know the definition of what a dwelling unit is has is cut so thinly that basically as long as you don't have a certain electrical um service and you don't have cabinets then you're not an Adu but people always go in and at them anyways after the fact so at least this gives our ad years of path to citizenship so that's that's a good way to look at I don't think it's that hard to figure out when somebody has a Ted Shed and they put in a window Banger air conditioner and there's lights on and you can see the pipes coming out the back headed to the septic tank that that's an Adu sure but that goes back to what I was going to mention that's what I was I mentioned before too was is there you know I understand there's our neighbors adjacent to us that have implemented these recently do we have any data um you know more of an aggregate level from other municipalities maybe not even in Florida they've had these rules on the books for a lot longer and just to see what kind of impact because I think all the concerns around here about impacts infrastructure uh if these become widespread so the question would be how widespread and historically speaking in thises that have approve these how widespread did they truly become and before hit a saturation level um I don't know if you know that answer but but I don't have specific numbers off the top of my head but from what I gather it's negligible right if if it were such a concern in all of these counties they would be updating their ordinances to say oh we got a problem we got to change this and get rid of this okay so excellent on the whole it's negligible and it might be a large impact on the uh micro level but on the macro level you're saying it's it's negligible based on I I mean both I mean I I again there's a barrier entry of of cost adus aren't cheap to do going through the pering process costs money to do um and then having the appropriate size land to do it um you know we we just don't foresee uh thousands of adus being applied for so then how are we meeting your goals and objectives of providing additional housing and providing the missing middle and all of this other good every every drop in the bucket is another layer added so this is one way to get to where we need are there other policies that we absolutely want to adopt to increase housing stock absolutely only anticipated to be a small number initially sure and why don't we test the temperature of the water first and why don't we just do them all by special exception so that we can gon gon rather conditional use so that we can figure out so that we can hear these things figure out where neighbors have objections where neighbors don't have objections where these things become problems if we're only expecting a few a year well then that's just a few more special exception cases we hear and then we're not fully committed to something and have to go back just like we talked about with connected City now to try to fix something that's broken that may increase the barrier of Entry to even doing this the first place then we go back to the people that are doing them on permanent which they're doing I don't think this is going to stop them from doing this unman you also just scared Liam to death too by just saying that just you know I mean look I I was involved in the creation of some of our infrastructural regulations and I almost hate saying this but maybe it's not the end the world if we have another ad want a I mean to me the real issue I'm worried about is flooding I mean because permeable because if somebody puts an Adu in a in a flood prone area that's more people we going to rescue it's more people that we may have to buy out if we have to buy out the lot because it's flooded the feem has to come in I mean well David is there a provision against them putting a pool U no a pool in a flood prone area is there a provision against that because maybe maybe the triggers the size and also to clarify too they have to meet a building coat so if it theoretically had to be elevated it has to be elevated I understand but it's just I don't think you're understanding the point that every time every time I add another impervious surface I'm adding more runoff I'm adding more storm water that has to go somewhere and if I'm in a bowl it doesn't go anywhere yeah but I'm just saying we I I recall that we have mapped known flooded areas in our County what is wrong with saying if they're in one of those mapped known flooded areas that it requires a special exception nothing great we can do correct I agree we can do that we can establish I'm going to use the word Loosely like overlays such as that that can control where adus can occur you can also control the type of Adu that takes place based on where they are so for example if if storm water drainage is a concerned perhaps only adus that fit on existing uh no no adding new impervious service area they're only on the existing let's say above the garage right already there they don't they don't expand the footprint you can do things like that too so like in if if the drainage of special concern example that we're talking about here um is illustrative of the of the situation we could say only adus that have that sit on the existing footprint can occur here now if if we have other concerns such as um you know flooding flood rescue situations maybe there's something more that we can uh research and develop Terry I'm not suggesting you need to come up with every special exception condition in the code all I'm saying is and I think that Mr Moody is saying too is there should be some trigger where that particular Adu goes through a process where we can look at what conditions do we need to impose on it to make sure it's not exacerbating the flooding in the area so if we've got mapped areas of known trans special Curr or known flooded areas I'm pretty sure I've seen these Maps before um maybe we just say if you're on one of those maps not withstanding all this if you're on one of those Maps you need a special exception of I would think one of them would be density right that's the most obvious that you know the more the more dense then the more impact an ad you would have well per per acre it's counterintuitive I understand the the drainage utility issues those are val valid issues the question on density however is kind of counterintuitive usually the higher the more densi you increase the more B you get for your infrastructure dollars meaning you have less infrastructure on the ground serving more people so it's an inverted relationship with regard to density what we're talking about here is low density Suburban environments that are going to add an Adu so much of the literature such as from the ARP for example they'll refer to that as being more efficient use of the Suburban infrastructure that's already in place because an Adu up to a certain dwelling or aduw size um actually has less impact on the infrastructure than say brand new house on a 50 by 120 fo block um so there's a lot of there's a lot of things that we could take into account but I'm not sure that density is I I was just thinking you know if you have 5 acre lots you had a 900 foot Adu that's going you know for every let's say 20% of those 5 acre lots at an Adu that's a lot different than 20% of the lots of quarter acre lots that are having Adu in terms of storm water and things like that infrastructure maybe that might make sense yeah and I think that there could be utility provision that you have to get utility approval storm water management is infrastructure okay right what what I would tell you Terry is just speaking from General civil engineering practice when I go into a neighborhood a modern neighborhood not one that was built in this not one that was built in Pascal County in the 60s or early 70s the water lines are sized for the fire flow okay the amount we drink off the water line is really irrelevant it's the amount of those water lines are sized to provide the flow needed for the fire hydrants so there's very little impact to pable water there are some older neighborhoods that I can think of in holiday and Hudson that have very small lines without fire protection where that could potentially be a problem gravity sewer systems probably adding an Adu is not much of a problem pump stations it can be a problem a pump station is designed for a certain number of units to discharge to it and it is not designed with additional volume inside that station to handle additional flows so if we have if you take an older neighborhood oh let's say like Embassy Hills or Regency Park and I start putting a bunch of adus in there I could very quickly overwhelm sewage pump undersized sewage pumping stations that were never designed to accommodate that adding additional storm water runoff in an area where we have open Drainage Systems in the big scheme of things probably doesn't too much but in the smaller scale does for instance when you see that grate in the parking lot or that opening in the curb that lets the storm water flow in there's only so much capacity that that opening has I start adding a bunch more and that's what a lot of people saw during Milton there's a lot of people that weren't in flood zones that flooded basically because your storm sewers the storm sewer inlets do not have the capacity to take in that much water that fast so that backs up so I think there is some concern over the the storm water but I'm with David maybe in just identifying the more problem neighborhoods get with utilities get with public works and storm water to identify the problem areas and make them special Exceptions there I don't want to make a I don't want to make Miss Jones go through a concurrency analysis to build the na you by any means I me so maybe between now and the time this gets to the bunny commission for real um you can just have a conversation with utilities storm water Public Works and say okay what are the areas of the county that you are just so problematic you don't even want to you don't want to add any additional residential units to it and see if they can come up with some description of what that is and then you just say in your code if you're in one of those areas sewer water flows or you know known flooded areas um that you need a special exception to get the 0 year approval and I would ask that that discussion not only include Public Works and utilities but speak with the sheriff's department well additional as well as fire and U one more question to that point um so in your um analysis of looking at other adus um traditionally this was for extended family I I guess you seeing most of these used for extended family in other words is there um has there been any significant impact to the schools extra extra children probably address that a little bit um we had this conversation when we did the school upate and I think if they're around that 900 foot level or they have an impact there's no question but we're the code says we're going to assess them the multi family rate which that should address their impact okay I think it says does it say the multif family or the single family I thought it said single family if it's 900 under it's going to be multi so on um 2 okay what does it say 2 e says that A reduced oh I'm sorry no not 2 e 3 e 3 3 can you put up three I don't School impact fees at a reduced rate the reduced rate for school impact fees is the multif family rate oh is that what that means yes okay I mean we could probably write that in just to make it clear but it's yeah i' like make it the difference is that Mobility has a special rate for ad use oh okay for schools when it came through you probably remember this discussion Chris but we we we assessed it the multi family rate and that's fine so yes it has an impact it when it's a lower impact than it would be for a single family home so the assessing at the multi basically addresses the and and Derek I asked the same question because I mean obviously if an an mpud all of a sudden every one of those houses started doing adus it'd be a huge concern but assuming that um that's something we need to keep an eye on but assuming that they don't generate lots of those then we'd be okay but if again well that's why I wonder what the actual impact is because I figured you look at empirical data of other municipalities that have these adus and I would assume most of the adus are being used for extended family it's not for kids right right right so there I'm sure there's some but it's a lesser impact than it would be of even multif family is my guess but I didn't know if there was that data that was out there I don't know that they have when we discussed this for schools and we talked to Carson I don't know has data specific to adus but it may be that the Adu imp fact is even lesser than an apartment that's what I I just prise we don't have the data so the closest rate we could assign it was multi family right which is fair Patrick let me ask this this a kind of complicated question somebody lives in Beacon woods and they come to the building department and say I want want to close in my garage and put in a kitchen and a bathroom so that my mother-in-law can live in there mhm and it's against the deed restrictions in the neighborhood sure does the D question which one takes prence well we have language clearly I understand deed restrictions are a civil matter but I could see where all of a sudden we could start clogging up a bunch of Courts if the building department isn't on its toes to say hey isn't that a deed restricted neighborhood you need to come back here with a letter from your HOA or something like that I mean we generally do not enforce private restrictions I I don't know whether the building department is asking for any proof of approval from whatever eacha would have to approve it do you know Patrick whether we do this I I don't know but I Pro I doubt they are I mean it's understand they they are tasked with enforcing Our Land Development regulations and the Florida building code that's a big job for them as it is I mean they it's it's going to be difficult for them to then say Oh and we're going to enforce some private D restrictions that nothing to do I agree with you I don't think the county should be in the business that's a civil matter and I've heard Jeff say it before that you know those are civil matters and that's not our issue as the county but I think if all of this gets [Music] approved there needs to be very good communication with the public that just because our zoning code may allow for an Adu that doesn't mean you're off the hook with your HOA sure um and I can hear Elizabeth Blair in the back of my head right now saying look at this line um but uh we actually have that included in the in the text um in the last sentence of B we say in addition individual restrictive covenants May prohibit adus so we have it in the language already that's your secret version is it not in yours oh okay yeah where is that where is it that's the version he said version they've been working on in the last yeah so when I had this uploaded was I think before I went to ODT got some additional good feedback um so yeah there there is a oh wait yeah it's there right there um in addition individual restrictive covenant May prohibit ad use so in in that one yes it's still there and of okay and of B yeah so we've warned people that it could we've warn them do we need a definition for ad some CU like this is a 2B when a garage is converted to an Adu mhm garage or I mean what makes it an Adu yeah and that's probably my fault for not including that we have a an appendix definition um I just didn't include it in this document so I can tell you from we get lots of calls there's lots of people that get themselves in trouble if you go down to the building department and you have a single family home the minute you want to add another stove another another way to cook in there other than a microwave of it M somewhere but you want to add a place for an appliance like a stove or a range that's their or all of a sudden I want to add a bunch of 220 volt Outlets inside my garage then that's their cue to figure out hey wait a minute look at them let's see if they're trying to close in the garage and make an apartment out of it that's usually the dead giveaways yep Patrick along the lines I got a couple different questions okay so obviously my mind's going in the wrong direction here but adus I think of like an Adu is like somebody has a garage and they want to build out upstairs sure okay now they probably run across issues there if they're going to do that for detach garage build out upstairs they probably run into problems with a 900 square F feet but the way this is written in 2B when a garage is converted to an Adu what what's the County's position how are they going to look at that if somebody builds out upstairs above the garage clearly you don't want to CL take out the garage door yeah oh yeah I think it's just the unit itself I I think so it be the upstairs only the upstairs only 900 yeah it's not the entire structure the garage is still being used as a garage it's garage we wouldn't expect them to take that garage door off unless it was being used as a living as the living quarter and then I guess along those same lines in they 2 [Music] e what is an example of when an Adu is located within a single family dwelling is that just if somebody has a separate door going into like a garage if they take the garage door okay yep okay so I wasn't here there'll be a bunch of people that get a surprise when they have to turn that partition wall into a firewall and it run it all the way to the roof and it's not as it's not as simple as the zoning code may I wasn't here last time but I know I met with Denise and I don't know if you were involved in that meaning or but um so what are the thoughts on okay I'm living next door to somebody now they're going to build in their backyard they're going to build an Adu and now that kind of impacts my view sure I mean how do we yeah so we are um some places make exceptions for setbacks so some places for adus let's say you have your principal building setbacks and let's say from the side it's 20 ft or something like that some municipalities and local governments will say for an Adu you know what we'll let you go a little bit closer to that property line um we are not planning on doing that um our setbacks for adus are going to be the setback as the primary whatever I mean your neighbor is coming in with the assumption that I'm not going to see a home within 20 ft of me we want to hold true to that so we are using the primary setbacks to count for 80 so they they do have to use the principal structure setep back not the accessory structure step back okay so here's a question so I have a single family detached home and I decide I want to build build a detached garage that's an accessory structure mhm and I build it 5T from my property line is by the supplemental RS in the zoning code yep can I then turn that into an Adu so Liam thank you very much for that support um so that uh setback provision is within the section that we allow for special exception so if you wanted to have a lesser side setback like if you wanted to take your current garage that's within 5 ft and you want to put an Adu on top of it you will come in for a special exception and at the planning commission's discretion could theoretically approve it um but if they don't come in for a special exception no okay so at least you would get notice Chris get to come down here expects the school system Chris the other thing I would say is that keep in mind that somebody could just expand their house yes than and as long as they're in the setbacks the setbacks in the height and everything else there's not much that's allowed today yeah so that's that's basically the answer they could have built their house and been in that right right been in that space already Yes gotcha understood I know that's up to the chair this is not this is not an action item so we can I think I'm timing I think Patrick said he has seven minutes left on his battery no I'm just you can come up I'm just kidding Nancy yeah come up to the podium though so we can get it we'll take public comment that's fine just keep it at three minutes please can I stepped in a couple minutes some of this I think you already touched on um I Michael poor come on record I did swear um just quick couple of things I've been investing in real estate for probably 25 years now I don't have the engineering uh background you guys do with specs on it but there was a couple of things that I just wanted to mention maybe it works into your discussion maybe it doesn't first off um I think a lot of this comes down to intent instead of specific application when we're talking about a large uh seems like a single-minded document like this um to Mr Moody's point a 20 X5 master bedroom a 10x10 kitchen and a 10 by9 bath is 490 Square ft if it really is for a family member I'm not sure how much bigger that needs to be just wanted to throw that out there so it seems like a lot of this is proactive versus reactive we're being reactive to current issues in the county so we're trying to be proactive but we're possibly maybe being a little bit too reactive in the situation potentially I see three different style adus being put up here in one one uh wave here but maybe we need to look at garage adus additions to homes and detached as separate categories and the reason I say that is would a freestanding Adu potentially benefit from having a minimum lot size the if it was freestanding should it be allowed to be placed in a current flood zone even if it's AE or otherwise um should a density cap I didn't see if there was a cap on the uh number of adus but is there a density cap on the adus per parcel specifically parcel size to prevent somebody with five or 10 acres from putting 10 adus on their property potentially a regist ation process so that we can track known impact utilities storm water schools so that we can still monitor for the impact of the area potentially there's a way You' know better than I but what if it was an Adu based Co what I mean by that is maybe these could be attached to homesteaded properties only to prevent the investors from turning them into three or four rental units so if it was like an Adu Co on the unit if you move and sell the property the next person could use it as an office space but if they want somebody to live in it full-time it would have to be homesteaded to them and that keeps the property owner they in tracking use of the property um Revenue basis is an item that does concern me and maybe a public Workshop to hear from interest parties that want to do this in the future can provide some examples of how they would apply it before a single document uh gets put into place over all of those different projects thank you he brings up a good point and you know I kind of glossed over this I think there was a some language in here that if you subdivided it then the Adu would then become a principal structure yeah uh it's uh and I'm sorry I didn't get all I was trying to write down as fast as I could um I didn't get all of them so if there's something I didn't address let me know um so yeah there's language in there that basically that you know what often times I would assume is going to happen someone's going to have their primary structure and then they're going to build an Adu and then 15 years down the road they're going to want to sell that Adu we're just putting language in there that says you need to follow the subdivision process if you're going to do that so that's what that language is and what stops me from condominium ising it I don't know but we don't regulate condos currently anyways I think there's actually there's actually a case law that says that even if they condo they still have to meet our Land Development regulations they can't create a a lot that would violate our well cond not a lot you own your you own your three dimensional space that's that's tow houses town houses are fee simple where we own the land under the lot they may have common walls but in a condominium it's common owners ship of the building it's one ownership of the building but you have ownership rights to your interior space that's different and but it's essentially the same thing what's the I mean what so what's the issue they wouldn't be permitted another condum is a backd door way to subdivide and sell property I see Denise back there yes and what's so I think you should have language in there that you can't go turn these things into housing co-ops or Condominiums either okay we can look into that okay um some of the other ones I I I sort of picked up I think um one was you know what stops someone from adding multiple adus to the site we have language in here that you can only have one Adu per parcel um in terms of tracking adus uh the when we're going over this with the building department um they're planning on creating a new record type for adus um to help track accessory dwelling unit so right now the record type to submit a new home is called resue um they're going to probably create a new record type for adus to help better track adus and which will help out U Mr Williams there um trying to figure how much of an impact this is having on uh the school board so I think uh that's what the building departments plan is there I know there are other questions I'm sorry if I I missed them um if anyone remembers them I can try and answer them but well I do want to be clear because a couple of times folks have made comments today that this is for family members and there's nothing in this code that restricts it to being for family members and that is very problematic to have to regulate um well but it does say that if you want to use them for vacation rentals that you do need to go through the conditional use process that's that's different but if somebody wants to rent it to their friend versus their family member we are not going to regulate that I don't know how you would well I agree with you that I'm just saying that i' I've heard that statement a couple times that this the intent of this is for your mother-in-law or your sister but regulating whether some it's your sister using it or your sister's best friend is not easy to regulate and so it's not there's nothing in these regulations requires well but one of the things he brought up was doing it on you had to have Homestead on the property in order to limit an investor from having multiple rentals on one property uh on one property or multiple properties on one property because investor goes out and buys one house investor buys one house adds an Adu and then he rents out the house and he rents out the Adu you have 10 houses you can effectively have 20 units just like that yeah that's a good question that's a good question for Mr Wells if you have an Abu do you get to claim homestead over the Adu I wouldn't know yeah Le what if scenarios I mean keep in mind everybody I mean obviously this all of a sudden that could be a problem for him sure yeah there there there are tons of different variations and restrictions that are added to adus different communities have different things that they're concerned about um is this theoretically something that could be added to ours sure but right now our current stance was definitely more less restrictive in terms of not necessarily monitoring who is residing in that Adu or or anything like that with the exception of the vacation rental um that's just currently what we're at remember this is a Land Development code we're not trying to regulate how something is taxed in Our Land Development code so Mr Wells alerts us this is a problem we can see if there's something he wants us to change it'll be his problem it won't be our but it's a general rule if they're not homesteaded they're going to be paying us more taxes yeah so I'm not sure that's the end of the world used to live on a lot that had a what matter to an accessory dwelling unit and they figured it out yeah and they didn't hom up the whole thing portion so Denise Hernandez Code Compliance or code yeah Code Compliance department so I just wanted to mention that we do have a a scheduled meeting to speak to someone at the Property Appraiser's office to discuss some of these items because we do want to make sure that they are putting that on their tax roles and everything else um so so that is something that is going to happen U shortly thank you Denise glad you're here Nancy did you want to come up too Nancy Haywood 34110 nice place state city um so I was looking at a and I was wondering um encourage infill development is that open space that worries me I'm of course I'm thinking about how would this affect the rural protected area and how it would be used out there I know in Tampa I saw where they did these um as a a little subdivision and I was wondering about that too so anyways those are just a couple of my thoughts thank you okay just to answer the last question uh tiny subdivisions this uh adus couldn't be tiny subdivisions I think you're probably thinking about like a tiny home Community or something like that um this would just be an accessory structure to a single family home lot um and again I well the first question again was um um INF devel INF INF sure yeah not necess well I mean I guess theoretically you are filling in open space not necessarily if you're on top of an existing garage um but yeah some parts of the can uh the county trying to get additional density where we need it uh that type of thing um so like I said I think this goes back to judging from other local governments um we don't expect to see an overwhelming amount of these so we think the impact is going to be relative very very minimal probably not noticeable to Mr Moody's Point uh people are basically already doing this already they're just not including a uh 200 amp electrical unit and they're using a microwave instead you know so um you know get and they're not paying us the impact fees and they're not paying us the impact fees um so yeah Patrick do you have an idea or is there a timeline for this to come back to the Planning Commission for approval um I am going to be taking it to a horizontal Round Table whenever the next I think that's next week yes and horizontal is my last step and then I am currently working on creating the agenda to officially get this on the Planning Commission agenda um so I am trying to move as fast as I can can uh like you said we'll have those other conversations with some of those other departments maybe add to the special exception they'll maybe some tweaks along the way but I Envision what you see is not changing drastically um so soon okay so just one request I one I appreciate you acknowledging that there could be restrictive covenants over a neighborhood that prevent a the other thing I've been following the Facebook discussion on adus there are a lot of people who are of the impression I'm not saying it's the right impression the mistaken impression that allowing adus means that they're going to be able to park an RV in their yard and rent that out too or a travel trailer mhm that's not the way I read the ordinance I don't believe that's the intent of this ordinance fixed foundation so but yes we'll so if you'll work on that language to make sure that that's very clear that you can't do that right and and you know the building official needs to make it clear you know camping trailers are for temporary camping they're not meant to be living units that's why we have ability very good all right thanks did anybody else anybody have anything else okay motion to adjourn motion to adjourn is there a second second all in favor I oppos motion carries [Music] [Music] Pasco County waterways and Wildlife depend on you to keep them healthy excess fertilizer grass clippings trash oils and pet waste wash into gutters and storm drains when it rains storm water carries these pollutants directly into our lakes and rivers creating an unhealthy environment for for fish water foul and other Aquatic animals storm drains are meant for clean rainwater most other discharges are illegal