[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] sheing well I guess even if you're connecting to it yeah but she doesn't know them I don't know it's not your right away no no I mean the part that you a part of it is connect yes we would know we would need a RightWay permit for that but the CV one I need ask them I don't know how they that's an issue you'll face now that we have all the CBD that's first time I've come across this and we thought about it and we we said to our client well I don't know I this is a little bit a new animal for us we got to go do some research figure out they may not they may just take the position the public roads and you can access them I don't know I are you paying C rest no no because interestingly enough the parel that I have I'm looking at is created it was included in but not included in the of the MP basically the MP the M big the overall property wased and then this property was left out it's included in it's not included it's not included in the CD either yeah the reason I'm raing this with you I don't know if the CDs would take the position that to connect to the road you need to be paying part of the C assessments I don't know the answer to that interesting things yes gotta learn something new every day that is unusual though hey Denise just let me know when you're ready normally a lot of maybe not because there are some commercial tracks pause it I'm like to call the meeting to order we will stand for a moment of silence and the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge aliance to the of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for Adam clerk do we have the roll call please Jamie Gerard here choper here John Moody here Matthew M here here Chris Williams here chairman Charles here and the proof of publication the items for advertised in the T times on April 17th 2024 May 22nd 2024 and June 26 2024 and by of certified mail all right thank you very much could we have the approval of the minutes please motion to approve the minutes from the May 16th and the June 6th meeting second motion and a second any further discussion if not all in favor signify by saying I I oos like sign okay mooving to the instructions for the meeting for those of you who haven't been here or haven't been here in a while um but before we do that anybody that plans to give testimony today if you please stand raise your right hand and be sworn okay thank you so we are the Planning Commission and we're appointed by the board of County Commissioners and we meet twice monthly we serve as a local planning agency and we hold public hearings and transmit to the board of County Commissioners recommendations on comprehensive plan amendments plan development code amendments for res zonings and conditional use requests the Planning Commission Planning Commission is the final decision making body for special exceptions certain appeals variance requests and certain alternative standard requests however final decisions may be appeal to the board of County Commissioners if anyone has an opposition to any comprehensive plan Amendment Land Development code Amendment resoning conditional use or any item where the Planning Commission makes a recommendation to the board of County commissions it's important to you to to attend the appropriate board accounting commission or meeting we have those dates available if you need them those of you not familiar with the for format of the meetings we have three sections continuances consent items and regular items uh we'll go through those and it's our been our policy to if there's been a request from the applicant or the staff or continuance we it's been our custom to approve those requests unless there are extenuating circumstances the uh cons on I'll go through one at a time as I go through there if you have something on on the consent agenda that um you'd like to have discussed today raise your hand we'll pull it from the consent agenda and move it to the regular items uh otherwise uh when we finish going through consent agenda we'll vote on them at one time and uh request for approval for those items then we have the regular items and those items are not placed uh on consent and U they will be heard eded thoroughly here today applicants will be here and they'll make their presentation and the uh anybody in the audience will have a chance to to ask questions so um before we get started um is there anybody here uh to speak to anything that's not on today's agenda okay um and it's been our U it's been u a policy of the board to U for anybody who wants to task for additional time I don't think we've had any requests for additional time have we that is correct Mr chair but we do have this Sor thanks okay yeah I did see you and um so uh we don't have anybody that's requested that for extra time in writing but typically the applicant gets 3 minutes to make their presentation and the respondents uh have three minutes to ask any questions that might come up and the applicant could come back up and try to answer any of those questions that were raised so before we go further and uh because we do have one person here to speak on an item not on today's agenda just say to you to please silence your phones please so they don't go off during the meeting check my own and um other than that I think we're ready okay now I'm legal okay so when you come up if you please give your name and address and I know you've been sworn I saw you I'm just going to record my name and just and push a pun Nancy hawood 34110 a nice place um I you know I wanted to say thank you to y'all for your thoughtfulness and the way you go over each item on the agenda I know sometimes it takes a while but that doesn't matter the way you thinking through each of these is really appreciated by your citizens so thank you thank you also um last night there was a code enforcement meeting that was one of the best presentations i' had seen out of the county and a long time unfortunately there were only six people there and that part might need to be worked on a little bit I would be glad to help if somebody on staff wants that and uh I believe there's one more code enforcement meeting coming up if anybody wants to go to it I think it's in land of lakes also you know sometimes we can use this as a time tonight talk to y'all but to talk to staff and tell them what we like and don't like we don't really have that ability much either so thank you again for what you all do I sincerely need that thank you okay thank you you appreciate you coming all right we'll take all the thank yous we can get right pardon me yeah we'll bring you the microphone if you like do you want us to bring you the microphone um I have caner don't have it but it damaged so sometimes I can't speak a word but I know what it is so don't think I know what it is so yeah thanks would you prefer to sit you can sit if You' like you can sit if you'd like I think I'm okay oh okay I'll take this back then just sitting down I can hold this but yeah there's a microphone right up here microphone right there you can hold on to that podium if you're feeling weak okay we'll catch you hi my name is Susan Shelton uh I live at 4010 on River Road um I was born and raised here because in 1868 my great great great grandpa suar came down there and bought huge land and God has given me eight acres for it and that is what Pres since this what's happened on the River Road that is so concered to me and other people there has been a person who's and I can't remember names all the time and then know the man and everything it's not going to come up but you probably figure uh he he almost put a piece down there all these years it was uh um an not animals he had stuff on all these f his grandpa and everything and now it's he's wanting to sell it or he he has it and he's going to sell it and he wants to put on that first piece he is approximately up to um two and 300 houses right on that on r Road and then also recently he bought another one who is the this part is 24 Acres that that he can barely get catch to that and then the word came back to me that they want 100 houses in there that piece is it's my great great great-grandfather's house and it is so hurting me I mean I know something's going to happen but maybe we could the land we could make it into something with all all these houses maybe you know I may not know a lot things about that but you can have houses maybe but don't want to doing it's terrible and um I um I just think that go ahead you're okay that that God would would be so unhappy to do that and uh I I had I went signed and I went up River Road every single except for three people signed it four people was crying and then the only the four people that wouldn't sign their their land touches that so they hoping that men will buy their so they won't sell that so I didn't but I did that and um the first thing that we had we we had so many people there that they had to go go get chairs that come and another thing is I I all week I've been working on this because they were told that I would be here time one day this week and I this is the third time that I had tried to be that this is the place I supposed to be but I'm not sure this isn't going to have anything to do with it so this probably is the only time but at least you people know what's going and and how it's hurting and um that maybe we can work together and bring it together in a god way and not have all those hundreds of houses and and make it look better than that so I bless yall and thank you so much for helping me thank you thank you for being here yeah for bringing that up is that uh home what how old is that home I'm sorry what how old is that home my grandpa this in 1868 Su um bber Bobby suer yeah that was his uncle mhm was with my grandpa that did all that okay thank you uh just staff question don't we have like a don't we have a I'm sorry I'm just asking them a question don't we have a like a historic element in the county that can might look into that or preservation yes David if you could come forward David Engel thank you David Engel planning director I just want to alert you we had a historic uh oversight committee at one time in the past that was disbanded in about 2011 but uh we're we're working on now uh resurrecting that um we also have a historic planner capability on the planning team now and uh we'd like to start working on creating a registry and also identifying historic home sites and mapping them out and preserving them whever we can that's great yeah that's some of the initiatives we're working on right now okay so is there a someone particular or part of the county that she should be keeping in touch with well I'm going to give her my mobile phone number and she can contact me oh wow okay all right see I don't even have [Laughter] that okay thank you David thanks for coming thank you yeah okay all right I think we're next good afternoon Mr chair Planning Commission members Denise Hernandez planning and economic growth Department um today we're going to start with the walk a walk-on continuance item that item was provided to the Planning Commission members and also to the clerk's office uh what happened on this one is that the applicant posted the property and also sent out notices prior to actually having a date assigned so that's why we're doing this as a walk-on continuance it is Peg 24759 7 it's a zoning amendment in the name of calacas West mpud sr52 limited partnership and is a rezoning from an AC agricultural District to an MPD master planned unit development District to allow for the maximum development of 155 single family detached units 67 single family attached dwelling units 16879 ft of support commercial and 125,000 ft of corporate business park Target industry Light Industry and um the recommendation is to continue this item to the August 8th 2024 Planning Commission meeting at 1:30 p.m. in D City okay do we uh have anybody exaa present anyone here to object Denise I just have a question so given that the hearing today was not fully noticed is the new date going to be fully noticed the new date will be fully noticed yes so new newspaper posting this never got uh put in the newspaper it was just posted and uh notices were sent so there will be new posting and notices will be sent and of course in the paper yes okay thank you all right and this is the only continuance yes it is it's the only continuance item so uh do I have a motion I'll move continuance of Peg 24- 7597 to August 8th day City second second further discussion all in favor opposed okay all right moving on to item PC3 which is Peg 24779 it's a zoning amendment in the name of kapali Edmund ripf it's for a change in zoning from an r1mh single family mobile home district and P1 professional office District to a C1 neighborhood commercial district with a deed restriction limiting the uses to those uses within the C1 District comes to with recommendation of approval okay applicant presid okay anyone here to object okay following item is item pc4 which is peg2 24783 it's a zoning amendment in the name of sa development Partners LLC for change in zoning from a C2 General commercial district and a C3 commercial light manufacturing district with a specific use to a C3 commercial light manufacturing District uh with a um voluntarily agreed upon deed restriction that includes the um the voluntarily agreed upon on um restriction to limit those uses to those uses in the C3 District that are consistent with the RO retail office residential also because it's in the connected city um Innovation Zone there's also requirements to within the deed restriction to stub out to the property to the West in order to have that Mobility with um a bike pedestrian golf cart low speed vehicles and uh automobile inter interconnectivity also a connection to the sidewalk that's located on the North portion of the parcel um and it comes to you with a recommendation of approval Denise does deed restrictions address live local as well that's correct yes that's the that when I say limiting those uses to C3 that's a c that's the live local deed restriction that's why fav okay Mr chair have we had a conflict on this one so I won't be able to vote on it very good and so noted um the applicant president anyone here to object know one all right next following item is item pc5 which is Peg 24788 it's a zoning amendment in the name of Dave Mitchell's holding company Mitchell Clinton resoning for a change in zoning from an r1mh single family mobile home district and C2 General commercial District to a C2 General commercial district with a deed restriction that addresses the live local act um and also I do want to mention for housekeeping purposes that on this one uh the deed restriction that was attached on the agend to the um Civic clerk item had like strike through underline we've we going to clean it up and send it back to the clerk's office so that will be the the actual clean version that will be attached and it comes to with a recommendation of approval from the planning and economic economic growth Department all right applicant present the applicant is virtually present okay is anyone here to object okay unless the applicant wishes to speak let's keep moving all right we're going to keep moving pc6 is Peg 24353 and that is a development agreement in the name of DP East mpud master plan unit development py home company LLC this is for a development agreement to design permit and construct improvements to water grass Parkway and Wells Road in exchange for transportation development fee credits uh the parcel the parcels are located generally on the south south of Wells Road on approximately 931 Acres within Villages l and m of The Villages of Pasadena Hills on this item you're sitting as the LPA and we're asking for you to recommend approval of the proposed development agreement to the board of County Commissioners all right any comment from the audience I hear any uh any questions from Das nothing okay next that was the end of your consent so do I have a motion to approve the consent agenda as am amended so moved second okay we have a motion a second for the discussion all in favor of the motion signify by saying I I I can't vote on P do them separate separ that's right it's was pc4 motion my motion I'll amend my motion to exclude pc4 so it's the consent Items PC 3 five and six second okay have a motion on a second and three five and six all in favor say I I those like sign and now we'll have a motion on pc4 motion to approve pc4 on the consent agenda second second second and we've noted that uh there an exclusion on this one um I one of the Commissioners Chris P yes sir and uh so he won't be voting on this one uh all in favor signify by saying I I oppose like sign okay thank you and uh Mr Roberto Bessel will be um presenting item pc7 okay can we uh take a five minute break promised a few people that it might take a little longer on this one so okay be taking a five minute break I'll take 20 minutes just to read I'm going to stop him for reading that whole thing told him he does need Brad I was referring to you Brad I like now that you get a little hot hot not [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] way [Music] I'm not kiding if they can do it halfway they do it 22 doing well how are you good to see my friend were you Ray went last weekend he look like got some but I'm not sure where he went out well she was out long weather okay she went out I appreciate it well yeah took a lot of years for me to be fici was a real good year last year no and this is the first year that they extended to the full it's a long is that the same thing talking oh okay okay all right all right yeah oh you know I'm you're famous see there Infamous that's a better word asir conversation okay Brad you can sit down now look at [Music] that back in order now please thank okay Clark you making this presentation Clark I'm good good afternoon tman board members Roberto devel review department and I have to read the entire section right I don't think you do for this no at this stage you don't have to read the entire section you just do that for the first reading just have to explain it okay all right um do do you guys want a full presentation or just uh here what the changes were for were made probably a full presentation okay yeah all right so uh this is a continuing continuing item from May 16 to today uh July 11th and the uh invasive vegetation removal is uh Amendment 69 uh so we have previously uh met with the interested departments and parties on March 28th and the horon round table on April 17th then we also came to the B of this board on the 16th of May and we also have one-on-one meetings with the board County Commission members uh on May 28th and May 30th and this is a this amendment is consistent with the following comprehensive plan amendments uh chapter next next slide please chapter three uh conservation element which is the entire objective con 1.8 elimination of exotic nuisance plant species and the chapter 7 Transportation element uh policy TR 3.4.4 amination act and control of invasion plant species the uh um agenda on itself it calls out that Within Chapter 48 there's several changes and these sections are amended to required that applications for this approval must include an invasive uh vegetation management plan and management for properity the management plan will not apply to individual single family lots section 46.5 right away use permit uh particularly age uh 4 46.5 58.2 restoration and maintenance standards this requires that permit remove all vegetation in the permited in the permit area and dispos of the vegetation using an appri method to prevent propagation the chapter 400 types and application in chapter 500 zoning um and the to require invasive vegetation management plan Management in perpetuity as well as prohibition of invasive PL from being cultivated and distributed then the next slide is uh for the chapter 600 we have uh an amended uh to make some corrections uh inter internal citations uh on chapter 800 natural cultural resources it's amended to clarify that invasive species are to be removed from ecological corridors on the next slide we have several sections on chapter 900 development standards uh particular Transportation Corridor management section 91.2 f.2 pointb interim uses which is amended to require that maintenance must include an invasive visitation management plan and management during the intern use uh 91.3 access management one particular section uh 91.3 maintenance which is a manded to clarify the maintenance must include an invasive vegetation management plan and management imp perpetuity uh next section 91.4 substandard roadway analysis and mitigation section 91.4 Point e subst submittal information it's amended to require the applications for dis approvals must include uh invasive vegetation management plan and management in perpetuity in compliance with subsection shall be required if it is determined that radway deficiencies are required to be corrected uh along uh next slide please for chapter 900 continued we have uh section 91.6 I'm sorry could you pull that microphone up a bit because you're not that loud all right I'd like to hear you a little bit better okay thank you thank you uh 91.6 uh Street design and dedication requirement section 91.6 D design and construction I maned to require the applicant for this approvals most include an invasive vegetation management plan and management imperity and the next section is uh 91.6 uh and this is 91.6 e.1 roadside design amended to require that all vegetation and Sal uh place in the dedicated RightWay uh be free CLE of invasive registation species then section 91.7 bicycle facility section 91.1 uh. 7 point D construction and section 91.8 pedestrian facilities areed to amended to require that within the boundaries of the limit of construction of these facilities an invasive vegetation management plan and management imp perpetuity is also required and last but not least we're adding a new definition invasive vegetation or invasive plant species it's a new definition for invasive vegetation or invasive plant species as proposed we uh asked for finding uh the board finding this proposal ordinance Amendment consistent with the B County comprehensive plan and recommend approval to the Border County Commission and the next uh hearing will be the BCC first reading on August 6th at 1: p.m. in l City and then the adoption hearing on August 21st uh 130 in newort Rich okay very good um questions from up here sure right guys I have a question I know I sent you a question Roberto and thank you for getting back with me yes sir I'm still struggling with a little bit with the language because you mentioned project area but when I look at for example just one of these sections 43.1 b6e it talks about within the plan under the review maybe that's sufficient but then it says um identify all invasive species blah blah blah and that says located on the Uplands and within Those portions of wetlands where impacts are authorized I just want to verify that if I had a 100 Acre parcel and I'm coming in with a project on 50 of those Acres of that parcel that you're only going to be looking at the 50 acres and not the total Uplands of the entire parcel that that is the intent sir only those sections are portions of the parcel which are being worked on okay or any of course any Wetlands that are impacted but not the entire Wetland system only the where the impacts are right I stated in these all right so Roberto that'd be the same you know when we talked yesterday kind of that's the same concept that we talked about under the operating permits uh related to kind of the bigger sites that the mines for example CU I'm trying to find the there it is so section 404 where we've got language in there that deals with processing areas on sites for extraction of minerals for example in the context of mine but then there's also reference to the operations property so me we discuss this I just want to go in record to discuss that the operations you know what is the definition of the operations property if we're in the context of dealing with the mine where we've got numerous units that already exist on that on that site and applicant comes in for another un to open up another unit understanding that these Rags are are there's no retroactivity it's all forward looking these would be applicable to that forthcoming unit that's coming for permit right it doesn't apply to the entire site that's correct Brad Tipp and uh development review Department uh to answer both of those questions a little bit more succinctly when any project comes in with a site plan they have a a boundary that's shown on their plans so it's up to the applicant where they draw that boundary if they draw that boundary around an entire parcel then yes you would be looking at the entire parcel but if your impact project boundary is a subset of that we would be looking at that subset does that make sense yes may maybe that I guess it so I kind of still strive with that operations property language in there I don't know if there's a better way to define that or if there's a need for for having that the operations property in there um there's something that can be done with that language because I still I still struggle with with that CU I that brings in the idea of retroactivity to me and that you know it is potentially open for the entire site and I'm I'm again I'm thinking more of the the the context of larger mines or landfills that are you know like Chris said hundreds of Acres um obviously in a mind most of the property is nuked anyway and they they do keep it up and and the like from of species I get that but it's I just I think that operations property that needs to be better defined or maybe even strien from the the language and I I would defer to the uh legal legal wording of it the Wordsmith of it to to the county attorney's office okay so we look into that okay the other question I had was on the invasive plant species management plan guidelines and I know we talked about the Phil last time and I think he''s changed it but on page two of that document it says Phill the select back fill shall be clean well-graded material free from debris Pete Roots Seeds of nuisance or exotic species blah blah blah how I mean that's still not really enforcable is it or how how concerned about that first question I have is where in 43.6 does it talk about select Phil there's no reference to select Phill in 4036 so this actual verbage uh we asked or I asked several Engineers uh I asked Swift Mud I asked other Engineers out of state and went to conference uh not related to invasive species but where I I run into a lot of friends and engineers and uh this actual language is what I got from swimon this is this is my question I said where in 4036 does it refer to select Phill where is there a requirement for select Phill again these statement right here there's there's two parts it says pertaining to LDC 40 3.6 yes because we're making reference to the section SE development code we took it out and this is the FI section so there's the fill and then it just it it's not it's Ty to fill it's not there's no ref I have 4036 in front of me and there is not one reference to select fill in 43.6 nor any requirement to use select 43.6 is the section and but he he's referring to select fill versus just regular the language to select fill there's no reference in 4036 to select Phill there's no place in that section of the Land Development code that references Andor requires select fill it just talks about fill so what is Select fill well and I'll beg to differ with the staff over what select Phill is Department of Transportation has a definition and this is an ordinance that deals with invasive species not geohazards not not the geotechnical that's the geotechnical engineers job here what what's really going on here is that we talked about actually I think we were concerned that the last version of this order ordinance contained requirements as to pertaining to the fill permit that all fill be certified to be free of seeds of invasive species and so what staff has chosen to do is to delete that well we're not going to alter the fill permit of this the section we're just going to slip in this definition here in the guidelines and try to enforce it in a backdoor Manner and again just you're correct that's why we're trying to do and if it doesn't work it is a lot easier to change in this manual than if we were to adopt it in the Land Development code so if if we identify that there's the problem the problem is our concern was that there's no way when I go to buy dirt I have no way to verify whether or not it contains seeds spores ryom of invasive species there's no readily available test for that what am I supposed to do go get a sample of dirt and send it off to some biological Lab at some University to try to determine that I was explaining to other Commissioners we had a discussion they don't do it either right okay commission good afternoon Keith Wy director of parks recreation natural resources uh in discussing this with with the planning team we had actually recommended to make a more generic term just that the fill should be free of new new nuance and exotic species because we we also I think are a tad bit concerned at what tests would actually produce this result right and and I know I wasn't at the last meeting but I know there was a concern about cost burden to applicants and things like that I think that you need to reference that there should be um the intent of the material should be at a minimum you know clean of exotic species and nuisance species I think that's the goal uh quite honestly trying to determine have you purchased dirt before have I purchased dirt person no I mean through projects the construction but I do right so what do you recomend and when I go to the mine that Chris just referenced I can assure you they don't have any documents down there that talk about whether or not the dirt they're selling out of their mind has any seeds or spores or risom from invasive species ex okay that's not common there's no readily available place for those mine owners or mine operators to go have that kind of determination made I'm not dealing with rocket scientists on a construction site that that drive dump trucks to a mine and get dirt and dump it on a construction site they're not biologists they're not environmental scientists they don't have access to a university quality laboratory so this seems to me to be just a bit of ridiculous environment or requirement the the issue is here is whether or not an invasive species grows okay they have no way to control what's in that dirt right and you when you have something that's spread by windborn seeds and ryom that are microscopic how how can one reasonably ever expect to to know or be able to control that I don't disagree with you so so I was just going to say so you know we understand the intent but we but I just don't see how Phil is practical to be able to do that I think it was maybe it was John last time I mean if we have a management plan to to take care of the invasive species if if something does Sprout up then that management plan is going to take care of it correct so our concern or my concern at least from the school district's perspective is the cost of anything if somebody were to come out and say well have you checked this fill to make sure it's voided no I mean it's not we we try to obtain clean clean fill but there's no documents saying this and I think that you know Mr Williams I feel like that's kind of the intent of what the team was trying to capture here maybe Mr Moody to your point maybe too far into the realm of of um uh difficulty into you know making an ATT test so if there's a way that we can agree on some terminology that honestly would allow us to maintain I got two concerns one the staff just when I when I suggested that this was a backd door way to go around what our concerns were the last time one he just got up and admitted yes that that is the intent well that that's not a professional way to act here well the second problem that I have is this is a ordinance that deals with invasive species now all of a sudden I'm getting into the size of rocks claws Pete who this is the geotechnical ordinance there's a whole section of our code that deals with geotechnical requirements and geohazards and I don't think any of the staff that worked on this is a geologist or a geotechnical engineer and I'll tell you right now this definition of Select fill is not that of the Florida Department of Transportation some somebody told you an organic content of 2% I can tell you that they allow more three times more yeah I think the reference what does that have to do with organ what does that have to do with invasive species has nothing to do with invasive species Fair Point again I agree with you I defer to Mr Goldstein is through this process are we able to modify the proposed language to either strike or make recommendations to change you you can agree to strike that whole Phill section I mean and I was just to follow up on Mr Moody's question and your response I know that you don't personally buy Phil but the parks department certainly yes builds parks where they need to acquire fill are you confident that this this paragraph is not going to drive up your cost of acqu the parks Department's cost of acquiring fill it's I don't think it's a cost issue I think it's a it's a probability issue right I don't think that there is a test out there that would kind of get you to this answer so again I think the re if there was it' be cost yes correct send my scientists out how to do that we we use that I think exactly what what Mr Williams stated we use the clean fill definition or the the intent of whatever clean fill is supposed to mean so I think if we can agree that that's really what we're trying to accomplish here and get some proposed language I can tell you Swift mud's language and no Engineers language all of a sudden included roots and seeds of nuisance or exotic species I've been an engineer for 30 years and I know what the definition of Select Phil is and there's a definition in the fdot spe ification book there's a definition in the ashto manual if you want to look it up and I can assure you it doesn't talk about a nuis exotic spe is is that a definition that we should be looking at or are we talking about POS one I don't think we should be looking at it at all I understand what the concern is all of a s what I don't want is all of a sudden I got a regulation where now somebody's trying to redefine what select fill material is so or Define it in the first place well yeah you should be concerned about that because your county roadway contracts require the importation of Select fill material and I think you're going to get a big surprise in the cost of the fill material if all of a sudden you want to change the definition through the back door I guess the other concern ke and why I'm suggested you maybe just need to strike it entirely is I mean you could have a parking lot where the entire all the fill is entirely covered with pavement so there's no possible way that invasive species going to get through go up through the pavement so what what is the point of this if this is about invasive species I don't know what the point is of the requirement if it's entirely paid parking lot all all I can continue to support is to say that at least my team's recommendation was to to was to modify this section and strike it so I think that that that would be my recommendation to the committee and if anyone wants to entertain that so let me ask this question so the ordinance seeks to impose these requirements for investigating whether there are invasive species presence present in different various applications it might make some sense to me where we have development plans construction plans right of way permits I'm trying to find the relevance why why would somebody submitting a substandard roadway evaluation need to do an invasive species survey in fact there's a definition in the Land Development code and the substandard roadway section of what constitutes substandard roadway conditions and a substandard roadway evaluation is simply that an evaluation it doesn't authorize the construction of anything so why would somebody need to submit an inace invasive species survey to you to have substandard roadway conditions evaluated and I'll ask the same for the access management permit what does a driveway location have to do with invasive species Chris do you have something Chris what no oh thought I guess ke I want to get back to that question because I valid question I know I expressed that to staff yesterday but I want to I'm want to come back go back up to like 10,000 fet here for a second how how did we get to this whole development of this invasive plant species management plan and the whole requirement for the preparation and submittal of a plan the the I mean you're assigning a responsibility not only to the development Community but also to your staff which I can't imagine what your staff's going to grow to I mean you're you're going to become a manager of a manager of a manager of a department that's going to become ungodly big to review all these plans that are required to be submitted in perpetuity yeah I how how do we get to if the if I understand the goal correctly here is to try to mitigate invasive species that are running rampant throughout the county okay other counties and municipalities throughout the state and throughout the country handle that with other types of modifications and requirements to when when you submit development plans you remove certain species on a targeted list off of your site right I mean I don't know a single person that wants to or or purposely puts invasive species on their property they're more than willing to take them out and to manage them where they can but in some ways in some applications I mean take kogan grass my understanding is kogan grass is very difficult to even manage and and almost impossible to eradicate yeah so my my question really and I'll go back to it is how did we get to this enforcement or this this trying to this imposition of development of this invasive plant species management plan so just in I'll just be pretty concise on it I mean it's best management practices so if you're going to require some kind of Regulation that's going to um cause someone to submit something you have to at least make sure that it makes sense and that you can follow up on it in terms of the scope of responsibility Mr gerardi I would disagree with you I think this is pretty pretty uh uh pretty easy thing to actually accomplish in terms of a one-page management plan that you would submit um through an application process and in terms of scope of work for staff I already have a team of five that actually review applications that they're in there doing Wetland line jurisdictions and setting other other things like that in the field already so I it's I think we need to be talking about the reality of what we would end up seeing you're saying a onepage management plan just the requirements for the management plan are more than one page so and I I'll just I'll continue so s or eight other jurisdictions also have something similar right which ones are those so I mean Newport Richie Hernandez City of Tampa Temple Terrace hillsbor County pelis County manate one one second hold on please fando because I I pulled up I pulled up five different municipalities around here pelis Hillsboro Sarasota I went to leyon County I mean none of them had this so that's that's why I'm asking so it's Newport Richie Fernando and they're and they're in I mean obviously they're it's not everything's not the same but in terms of the response you brought you brought up the intent so in terms of the response to what we're trying to do we have a comp plan policy right in the comp plan that says we have to control manage invas of exotic species we were directed by the BCC to come up with some kind of plan okay so that's what you see before you is how we got there and and so also how you get there is is developing an integrated Pest Management plan to address it this could be something that an app I think Mr Moody brought up this could be kind of a one anddone thing I mean this could could be something is developed you identify it which could be identified on a very simple map with a few sentences and then it's over and done with there's no per management and per you know perpetuity there's no long-term maintenance you're asking for them to record deed restrictions that they're going to deal with this in the middle of annual reports reports right and again you have to start somewhere it's in the development guidelines of which as I understand from the planning team can be easily modified um well don't we get it right the first time why are we going to come back and modify it get it right the first time and that's not a true statement because that's actually Incorporated in the language of the ordinance so I can tell you from the perspective of our neighbors to the south I mean so yes they they do look at that but you know their speeches is basically limited Mela Brazilian PE and Australian P they required reporting never gets done there you said required reporting there is required reporting but it never gets done and it's never followed up on so I mean if we're talking about the intent right yeah Mr J's Point again teams tasked with developing a program what you see is what we've put together so let me ask this question so this is 9055 it's already in Our Land Development code plantings classified as prohibited invasive no use invasive and high risk in the central zone in the quote assessment of non-native plants in Florida's natural area perod page of the University of Florida IUS site shall be prohibited invasive species located within the area of the project proposed to be developed are required to be removed ongoing maintenance to prevent the establishment of prohibitive invasive species is required this is already part of our Land Development code so the question that I have is what are we doing to enfor we you're proposing a new law we already have a law in the book why you just enforce the Old Law well and I think without some kind of guideline to actually do that how do you get to that point well it's a simple the invasive species on that page are prohibited and ongoing maintenance to prevent the establishment of prohibitive invasive species is required I've heard multiple times multiple times that there's kogan grass in front of Mara I drove by there on the way there today there's not only kogan grass there's luigia ruana and there's Brazilian pepper has anybody gone and asked the people at marada to please remove the invasive species it's already part of the law so it's already part of the law they have an approved landscape plan all you had to do was send code enforcement but let me ask that how if we if we approve this ordinance or the Commissioners approve this ordinance who's going to enforce it so I guess that question is back to me so we already have a team that reviews the natural resources side of the application process with an inspection team we think that what we're asking today would not cause an increase in Staffing or responsibility outside of just adding that what are code enforc officers trained to recognize Bas species no no they're not so then somebody's going to have to pay to train them right the natural re if you just let me finish I'll explain so the natural resources team has inspectors that can actually do this already trained do the work so we because there's because there's no guidelines on how to actually pursue enforcement that's the issue at hand Denise if someone violates the code how do we enforce a violation there are procedures and civil citation and there procedures for that I don't understand what problem com on so well I mean yes we have the ability to enforce violations of our only devel code what I don't because I don't know if we have anybody from code force from here I don't know if we've attempted to enforce the existing code and had issues with enforcing the existing code and maybe Keith knows if we no no no we have not data we don't have anyone trained and we don't have the actual guidelines and I think that was a part of this piece was to to kind of get that cleared up with with with not the intent to put an immense burden on the applicant quite honestly you are putting an immense burden you're asking an HOA and a CD to maintain the removal of and control of invasive species in perpetuity and then submit a report to youn on an annual basis and I'm having a hard time you know if for 30 years I've been getting permits from the Water Management District and the Water Management District permits require that every couple of years that a professional engineer go out and inspect that system so I have people that call my office and they get they've gotten this computer generated notice from the Water Management District saying that they need to get an inspection done and they're all in a panic you know what I tell them the district has like a 100,000 permits relax they'll get to you in about 40 years before they figure out you haven't submitted the inspection report that's the problem they require an inspection report and because they have so many permits throughout the district there's no possible way for them to keep up with that and that's what I want to know so you're going to do this with every site plan every HOA every CDD you're going to need 10 departments from Sunday just to collect process review and do whatever they're going to do with the reports and at some point you're going to have so many reports you're going to need a whole building just to house them in a separate place and you won't even know what reports you got so there is the possibility that you can talk about sunsetting the the the uh Management in perpetuity assuming that the site is clean of exotic species that's additional language that you can put in there but I don't think um I I did this for Hillsboro County for 5 years and I was one person so uh in addition to having other responsibilities so I don't think it's is great uh a responsibility I can tell you that I get permits in Hillsboro County and no one's ever asked me to submit an invasive species evaluation or survey in 30 years either and I do it in penis County too and I'm familiar with their habitat management permit got to get one on every project but nobody makes me go out and every identify and provide GPS locations and color photographs of kogan grass or Brazilian Air potatoes or anything ask a simple question what problems do these invasive species cause what what what's the big deal um I mean quite honestly it's it's more of like a natural plant Community resiliency issue uh from a larger perspective so it's this is a programmatic approach by the county so um Public Works has their program where they try to attempt to do what they can within the rways parks and naal resources does what they can on Parks and naal resources and conservation lands and this is the other piece quite honestly the actual fourth or fifth piece to this would be private property and back in the day today the federal government and the state governments used to have like a wild wildlife habitat incentive program where they would fund um certain large land owners they would they would cost share the maintenance unfortunately those programs are no longer uh funded but so this isn't the only piece of the puzzle it's just it's just one piece and but what I the question I'm asking is what problems do these invasive species create that are so intense and so damaging that we have to spend this much time and this much effort and this much money to deal with it oh it's just competition with the natural environment I mean that's you know I mean I I I go places in where we used to have Australian pines I think they're on your list and the the government goes out there and just poisons them all I mean it looks terrible I don't understand it and it's they're very good about holding that they're usually in Beach type areas and they hold the sand together now s s washes away you don't have a beach anymore I mean it's to me this is this is just Overkill I I did a on the fwc's website about the invasive different invasive species plant species and there you know there's some that that compete with natural um fun species of plants as well as animals and they can damage the habitat of certain animals and things like that I guess a good example of it is the um when you're going along the road you see the the vines that covered all the trees all trees you know so that's a good example of the Bas of species but that being said it doesn't mean that U you know it's as widespread as maybe uh it's been being made out to me the other the other thing is I had met with staff on this and I've still never gotten an answer to the question in our current code the section that I read this refers to a document from the univers Unity of Florida Institute food and agricultural Sciences to determine these invasive species and this proposed ordinance demands that we use the list published by the Florida invasive species [Music] Council why the inconsistency what's the pro and when I asked staff about it they said well we want to use the Fisk list but I don't see a proposal here to change the list that's already on the books what's the necessity in this ordinance to use the Fisk list and then the other thing that I would say is just exactly who is the Fisk cuz I looked at their website and they're basically a bunch of self-appointed self-anointed quote experts nobody's the governor didn't appoint them the electorate did not elect them these are just some people that got together and decided they're the ultimate authority of who should decide what's invasive and what's not and at least the list that's in the the code currently is somewhat of a state organization well where do we want to go with this Mr chair you do have some folks here that have signed up to speak on the matter okay yeah I just wanted to are any other questions from just one for me if if you know we're talking about the the burden of an annual report is is an initial report or an initial plan submitt enough to give you all the sort of methodology to enforce you think like if you have a onetime plan and they've got to maintain per that plan in perpetuity you've got a document that allows you to enforce do they necessarily need to report every year what would be what would be the intention I guess for enforcing you get the initial plan they identify species are we is Staff going to go out and verify that they identified all the species through an inspection that's the intent but in some cases you you you know it could just be a letter of not it doesn't have to be a full-blown second third or fourth report let me take that question a little bit further so this proposed ordinance applies to RightWay permits and at my request and I appreciate this staff They removed any imposition of this this requirement on Residential Properties but I don't think you guys understand the total magnitude or scope of RightWay permits so Frontier Communications decides it wants to come in and put Fiber Optic internet service in the neighborhood and they go and they go to the public works department and apply for a RightWay permit to directional drill conduits so now does Frontier Communications have to hire an environmental scientist and a biologist to go out and first identify if there are any based on the language of this ordinance they'd have to they'd have to go out and identify invasive species before they can get their permit they have nothing to do with these species they're there to drill directional drill a conduit which means they're going to dig a hole this big for the drill Rod to go in and they're going to drill a dig a hole this big on the other end of the drill shot to pull the conduit back and all of a sudden they've got to go out and pay some PhD to come out and determine whether or not there are invasive species out there this just doesn't seem reasonable okay on the reporting side I'd offer too I mean if we're going to if that is going to be a requirement that goes forward you already went down this pass you know have the requirement Sunset and I would agree with that whether that be on a years's basis or even looking at you know what we do in the Wetland side where you monitoring their success criteria that are met right and it's released I mean we could do something like that I mean I I agree with what Mr Moody and Mr jardy said I I don't think you understand and I appreciate that you did this for pburg County but I think the burden that you're creating is is I think it's far more than you're you're considering okay yeah I mean I I personally I mean I if the language that that John read is in is in the is in your development code already to me it's an Enforcement issue of that code and I don't see the need to develop this whole these whole plan guidelines so that's I'm just I'm really opposed to the whole plan guidelines and how they just broad sweep every single type of of plan submittal that's out there Jamie I want to try to give you a little insight I think where the plan guidelines came from is a meeting that I had with staff when they were meeting with us individually one of the things that I had suggested was that for by way of example the Water Management District presumes that if you retain or filter the first half inch of runoff over a project that you're presumed to have met the state water quality standard and what I asked staff to do was develop something that was a presumptive criteria if you do these things you are presumed to have met your invasive species burden I don't know whether they misunderstood me what we're getting here is if you submit me a giant report like this you'll be presumed to have met the burden of satisfying the report requirement the other question I'd have of staff is and and I find this actually interesting because nowhere in here does it actually suggest how one might get rid of these invasive species and I'd like to ask the county people so it says that I have to in my invasive species management plan tell you how I'm going to dispose of it and make sure that it's done in a manner where there's it's not going to propagate so I'm going to take it to the county land Phil over on Hayes Road now it's your invasive species what are you doing to do going to do to make sure it doesn't propagate how how do how do you do that I think you're speaking in extremes quite honestly and at this point I that's what the thing said I don't um if I take it to the landfill what do they do to make sure it doesn't propagate I have no further comments unless anyone has a direct question to me of what's been presented so well I think we need to listen to questions from the public and then try to come up offer some solutions you know anything from we don't want to do this to some something in between um because we need to get to a result here so Roberto you started all this now Mr chair the first person I have registered to speak is Jennifer SEI and it's going uh going to be followed by Cheryl magalon and Sharon holding and then Ralph bugelli okay so we got have your name and address please yes I know the drill thank you Mr Cay you're welcome Jennifer cinii 25605 UPA Blossom Lane Wes of Chapel Florida and before you start her time I've been working with Jennifer since I don't know how long 2004 five no we have known each other and been acquainted with each other I don't recall ever working with you elap elap that was yeah many many many years ago and you were not a part of that yes I committee but I do recall having conversations with you so that means what I was going to say is relevant which is I go back three decades and I've been participating in Pasco County issues for many years my most proud accomplishment was getting the environmental lands program in 2000 and then funding it with a penny for Pasco in 2004 I have a penny Pasco uh buddy here on your committee we worked our buddies off um to through three pennies and I've worked on all of those campaigns I now am serving on the board of directors of the Tampa Bay Conservancy which is a uh local Land Trust which um Works to preserve important ecosystems in the Tampa Bay Area through fee simple purchase and also through conservation easements um I watched your May discussion and I'm hearing the same discussion today that I heard in May uh as a matter of fact it's a little bit louder and a little bit more vociferous than it was in May so you've obviously been churning this over um over time well so have I because I was really surprised to hear how much into detail you wanted to get when most of the detail will be handled during the individual site development application work and to me that's quite clear but obviously it's where you all have gotten stuck so we do need to work on getting out of that rut because to me it sounded like y'all were missing the forest for the trees I would like to point out and I won't read it to you because it was in the presentation the conservation easement I'm sorry the conservation element of the comprehensive plan requires that an invasive planning mechanism be implemented that's what we're trying to do today so to answer the question a little less emotively invasive plants are deadly in Invaders they grow fast aggressively they climb to the TR top of trees they cover entire Forest floors they build hugely dense root systems they smother estuaries they smother fish hatcheries they kill our native plants and thus kill our our native species so remember two things while you continue this difficult process remember the G pardon me go for tortoises and remember pollen aters a pine Flatwoods that is choked out with soda apple is going to starve your gopher tortoises goer tortoises are commensal with at least 300 other species that means they are a keystone species of important to over 300 species we need to keep the gopher tortoise we don't need to starve them and then the other thing I want to say is every farmer has problems with pollination these days it's gotten so bad that they rent pollinators something they never had to do decades ago and the reason being is that native pollinators need native plants to feed and to breed without them Farmers have problems overall and I think Mr gerardi you said let's look at the overall P picture Mr pool you may have said the same thing Mr Gray I hope I answered your question about why invasive species are so important to control but overall picture it's time for us to do this we are required by the comp plan and it's never too late some of you have even said it's overwhelming it's too late it's never too late to do the right thing so pardon me I want to ask you to recommend this ordinance in some form to the County Commissioners and I wish you luck on figuring out your issues thank you thank you thank you thank you Jennifer for all your work all these all these decades I really appreciate it hello my name is Cheryl Malon and my address is 3120 Flat Rock place in land of lakes and again my name is Cheryl maon I am a 25e resident of landal lakes residing in Lake padet I'm an active member of the Nature Coast chapter of the Florida Native Plant Society and my subject today is going to be category one invasive species known as the air potato the air potato is a heart-shaped Vine that can grow extremely quickly roughly even 8 in a day it typically climbs to the tops of trees and has a tendency to take over native plants this Vine self seeds freely from the bull bill bull bills they're like a potato to take over native plants the vine it's uh the vine self seeds freely this exotic Vine from Asia can quickly take over a natural area and smother native vegetation it can form a solid canopy off lights and it it cuts off lights to plants below and all resulting in the decrease or removal of the wildlife habitat now if I could bring your attention to a new Housing Development the towns at Lake Thomas developed by lenir it is located on us41 between Aaron cut off and Connerton the development resides on us41 and it backs up to residences on Little Lake Thomas Big Lake Thomas and a wooded Conservation Area it is worthwhile noting that lenar is still in the process of selling these units prior to the development being clearcut it was home to pasture hosting primarily cows and at that present time air potato existed on that property however since the clearcut and the completion of almost 200 Town Homes the air potato vine is still present and made worse because it was not handled correctly possibly contaminated equipment or throwing of the seeds during the clearing and mowing operation proper removal of the plants would per would have prevented the spread and establishment of more destructive air potato vines I recently observed the air potato vine behind the development at extreme Heights although the development's landscape is attractive the vine is making its way through the rear common areas and encroaching on property lines this is the result of improper clearing and virtually no regard for the development itself and neighboring areas in closing I encourage the Planning Commission to consider and approve the amendment discussed today and my time is up thank you thank you for coming appreciate that good afternoon my name is Sharon Holden 11705 Mayo Cemetery Rog in San Antonio I have lived in Pascal County for over 30 years and have been an active member of the Native Plant Society for 20 I am here to show support for changes to the Land Development code regarding invasive species for 11 years I volunteered at Warner boy Salt Spring State Park in West Pasco spending a good deal of my time working with with others to remove areas overwhelmed by invasives almost creating dead zones such as Brazilian pepper air potato and Caesar whe all the while knowing that on the other side with the fence line in the surrounding properties were stands of those same invasives loaded with berries and seeds and potatoes I am aware of the time and money spent by government agencies to try and control invasives after the fact I've lived in San Antonio in East Pasco now for 2 years and along State Road 52 I've watched as large areas of kogan grass grow and spread on my own property I am removing Dent stands of camper trees and coral aricha to allow native plants to return native plants provide for our wild birds and animals like nothing else can as they have evolved together I worry about what our County will look like in the future if we don't act now I believe that whatever can be done should be done as soon as possible to curtail the damages from invasives to our communities we should plan and act now thank you for your time thank you very much good afternoon my name is Ralph boilly I'm uh resident of Landa Lakes uh 2947 calano drive and I I'm here I'm part of the Native Plant Society um I just want to point out that when I first came here from Michigan about 8 years ago uh my my home was a brand new home everything was leveled before they built and uh when I did get my house landscaped it was it was completely done with non-native plants I didn't have any hummingbirds any butterflies any bees or anything like that I found it kind of strange coming to Florida but uh since joining the Native Plant Society I realized that uh I started putting some plants in and I started getting hummingbirds and these sort of things and so that made me ever more interested in finding out more about how to you know propagate these plants and also learned about invasive species these invasive species uh I as a matter of fact I had one in the back my backyard it was a rattlebox plant it's from Asia and India and so um I've been trying to get rid of it and I have but you have to identify it first and then start to you know pull it out and I was having some success uh one of the other things we did some walks on our tours to some of the Native parks around here or Natural Parks and we found out that there were uh uh the Caesar plant which is another evasive species these are the kind of things that uh take over the natural plants and they uh eliminate some of the birds and bees and and other uh nonnative species will prevent them from from feeding on those typ type of plant um I I really think that any effort you do to improve the elimination of non or invasive species I think is a great thing I know you've got some real problems on how to handle that but I think you can come up with something that would be beneficial when you find finally do your ordinance and so uh one one thing I have in addition to this is that when you do clearcuts like this you've gotten rid of a lot of native plants if there was a way that you could get builders that when they do their plans for the common area or something like that it'd be nice to put native plants in their place to help restore some of the ones that they've knocked out during their development period uh so thank you for your your efforts in this area thank you very much for your time Mr chair that was the last person who signed up to speak so I'm not sure if you want to okay is there anyone else that would like to speak that did not sign up I don't see any volunteers okay all right so uh so I I do have a question Roberto and Keith or both one or both of them come on up Keith you take a beating get you so I I I want to follow up on a question that commission that Mr Moody raised which is 95.2 E5 um I'm trying to figure out why that section is inadequate to address the issue and it because it does clearly require ongoing maintenance to prevent the establishment of prohibited invasive species is the concern that it doesn't identify who has to do it I'm just trying to figure out what the problem is with the existing code so is that underneath the landscap Landscaping section David it's in the landscape except it's in the Landscaping section of the code it refers to planted material so I think like the actual enforcement is just tied to things that you would plant and then the I think what we're all talking about I probably should have had them speak before me because they did a great job talking about um you know the impact on exotic species but um we're talking about the existing condition of undeveloped pieces of land unless Mr Moody interprets it differently no it well I don't I just read plain English it says invasive species located within the area of the project proposed to be developed are required to be removed ongoing maintenance to prevent the establishment of prohibited invasive species is required and furthermore 802.3 F4 States invasive or exotic species located within a project area shall be removed period I again I I can't speak for everybody up here I don't want anybody to misunderstand that I do understand that the management and removal of exotic and invasive species is is terribly important I I see it I understand that my my problem is more the mechanism we're choosing to go and the route we're choosing to go with forcing this management plan with all of these requirements reporting requirements this tremendous burden that's getting placed not only on the development Community but on the HOAs the cdds on County staff that's where my rub is it's not on the requirement for the removal of evasive species so so I I wasn't really finished with my question I'm sorry um yeah can interrupt it [Laughter] so because I'm trying to help staff I'm I'm trying to figure out is there something because I asked our codee enforcement attorneys if we've ever cited anybody for violating the section and the answer I got was no all right so but I don't know if there's a reason for that in other words I don't know if somebody looked at this our code enforcement team like did they not get a complaint about it and so they they're they never went to investigate an invasive species or did they did our code enforcement team look at this section and say I can't I can't cite anybody for that because of X Y or Z and so I'm trying to figure out what is what is it that's stopping us from I mean I'm assuming somebody on your team not you but Roberto I'm some somebody looked at the section five and and concluded that it's inadequate cuz that's why you came up with this other enforcement scheme so what was it that was inadequate about section cuz this the section Mr J doesn't deal with on goinging maintenance so so if this was just about plantings I don't think that the section Mr J cited would be sufficient but E5 actually talks about ongoing maintenance which is T is driving it your need for this reporting requirement and so is there a problem with that sentence that is causing staff to not enforce this today so David originally when I when I was tasked with uh invasive species and look into it I did look at the different sections and and the com plan and anything that was related to invasive species I didine that section and and I you know made my suggestions we have we have this we have sufficiency on this elements I don't have that document with me uh and I was s by management and said no we we need something more strict we need something to follow you know the guidance from the BCC we need something that aligns more what we are being requested and that's what prompted changing into all these other elements in the sections and subsections I mean one potential issue with L lence is it doesn't say who has to maintain it I I I mean but I don't know if that was the reason why you well would be those who are who that section is applicable to right but I'm I mean I I don't know because I mean where you might have an issue is if you went to site the subsequent owner where the subsequent owner says that was the developer responsibility it wasn't my responsibility so now that could easily be fixed if by identifying who is responsible for this ongoing maintenance but that would have been adding five words not the whole thing so but I but maybe an amendment to that section well but I I that's why I'm asking is did anybody was there any discussion of just amending E5 to cure whatever the potential enforcement issues are with the existing because one could argue and I agree with Jennifer seeing that our con plan requires us to do this but one could argue that E5 already complies with the comp plan so but obviously we for whatever reason we haven't enforced it to date that leads me to believe there's some problem with the existing code that which is causing us to not cite people for it but I don't know what it is right so David I can't little late in the game in terms of the development of of the new ordinance but um I do know that we without without any clear guidelines it's difficult for any you know I'm just thinking of like Wetland infractions and how we got to that part in terms of working with code enforcement question I was just asking Brad is could without the creation of a new ordinance because I'm hearing what everyone's saying could we develop something that is a little lighter in a development guideline tied to the section of the code that you're referencing David um taking all the comments and stuff like that we've that we've heard and um still give some directions though because you might have an LDC section that says all this shall be removed we still need to give a little bit of direction on what that means does it need to be you know PhD level you know geology reports kind of stuff but I do think we need some kind of simplistic guideline to at least give the applicant so uh and I think any applicant would want clear Direction on what that would be so I guess the question I'm asking maybe the planning team or David you if we have an LDC section that is sufficient to be the mechanism to require the enforcement action can we develop a very lighter similar guideline you know document that would go in the development guidelines manual so are you suggesting that it's the existing code isn't clear about what ongoing maintenance means it's not there's no there's no specific criteria there for what that means and so you want there's no reference to the to the species in question I mean there there needs to be something well there is a reference to species there is that is there but if what you're saying is that it doesn't Define what removal is or it doesn't Define what ongoing maintenance is or how in terms and things like that I mean I guess species def find this invasive high- risk in a central zone on the assessment of non-native plants in Florida's natural areas page of University of Florida Institute of food and agriculture science manual to the def their obligation is you just have to read the four words after it it says ongoing maintenance to prevent the establishment of prohibited invasive species is required that's your burden so I think what staff would need is some guidance to how do you actually Implement what well personally I like the direction that you're moving now to me it makes a lot more sense because you know it you're you're dealing with the real problem you're not creating a monster cu the root root of David's question and that's my question what's stopping someone from going out to the and that's a great example the town homes of Lake Thomas today and citing them and telling them that they need to get rid of air potato I think clear Direction on how to do that I I honestly just to be I'm not understanding that what do you mean clear Direction on how to do what direction is itbe area maybe um team of responsibility area of accountability I'm I'm you know not exactly sure probably where the problem is the ordinance is how do we enforce it you point so I'm I'm just confused and I'm not trying to be argumentative by asking this question I go in and I design and permit a subdivision which includes a landscape plan under 905 in the Land Development code so I'm subject and if I removed trees or whatever the 806 section that Jamie cited I don't so I have an a permit that's I'm subject to all of these requirements I don't understand where the difficulty comes in from by staff to enforce the code no different than the zoning code uh I got a guy coming to my visit me tomorrow who got a site for parking semi trucks on his property staff goes out and sees semi trucks they don't have an approved site plan you site them here you've got an approved landscape plan you're in violation because you allowed these invasive species to propagate could be for code enforcement officers Yeah question for Mr Moody so are you so in the in the post-development scenario of the land you're saying that Authority would rest underneath that section of the code that's tied to the Landscaping plan and that's why I keep going back to this is not about in our landscape section of the code and this is interesting because I know there are actually Active cases going on right now you're required to maintain your Landscaping so for instance I'm personally aware of Code Enforcement cases where Code Enforcement Officers go down State Road 54 with approved landscape plans and they say oh look there was supposed to be a live oak tree there and a l oak tree there and a row of Viburnum shrubs over there and there's three shrubs missing and that shrubs missing and then they give them a citation for $500 for each tree or shrub that's missing so they're still enforcing that plan so 9052 E5 already addresses IT addresses stuff that already exists IT addresses the prohibition against planting anything and it also addressed U stuff that may exist in the future future management so IT addresses all that good so does that again don't have the code in front of me D I mean it's let me ask David a quick question does that cover all the applications that the board wanted us to consider it Well it Well assuming we're not doing making this retroactive and that it's only governing which was I think staff's intent was that it was only dealing with those projects that submitted a landscape plan right um so so if they submitted a landscape plan this already says that they can't plant invasives they have to remove invasives and they have to have ongoing maintenance to prevent the establishment of prohibited invasive species so that was the root of my question is what is there something deficient about that code section that is that is and it's I'm trying to be objective here because my code Force some attorneys have said they've never they've never seen a site for this so that leads me to believe that there's a reason for that I don't know I'm trying to get what is the underlying reason why we haven't cited anybody for violating this code section if I had to speculate it's the how to piece and I get that it's easy to send a citation that's easy but the how do you take care of that after the fact and is that mulching on site is that herbicide treatment is you know all the various things so Keith you've just hit on what my biggest problem with this proposal is and I said this during the first hearing kogan grass was introduced to the United States in the 1920s it's been here for a hundred years our greatest scientists our universities our US Department of Agriculture our Florida Department of Agriculture and consumer service nobody has figured out how to get get rid of it now I'm not saying we shouldn't try to get rid of it or that I want it around I don't but at the end of the day you can't tell me how to get rid of it the county staff can't tell me how to get rid of it and all of a sudden I'm going to make the land developer it's now Lenard's problem to figure out how to get rid of it and you know lenar buys a site that's covered with air potato they clear it it comes back lard didn't introduce the air potato it was there and they got rid of most of it it's coming back maybe they should be doing something to manage it I'm not saying they shouldn't be but you can't tell me how to manage it the staff can't tell us what to do with it so how do you expect the development Community or the the guy let me be careful with my words here the guy who does the directional drilling for Frontier Communications or Spectrum to figure out how to get rid of it I I think that's I think that's kind of a m point because we're we're being directed to do something and I think that no one's saying that we're going to eradicate so Keith what I'm hearing you say is that the existing code doesn't provide enough detail as to how you do that ongoing maintenance so my question is could something just could a sentence be added saying the development review manual will contain the permitted ongoing maintenance techniques yes so d and then you just have the development review manual identify permissible maintenance yes and that goes back to the original request I made of staff can you please provide a plan which is presumptive in nature okay if I do a b and c I am presumed to have met my burden to control this species if you tell me I need to burn it I need to poison it I need to grind it up and bring it to the Landfield just tell me what it is I need to do because all of the ex all the scientific experts in the world haven't figured out how to get rid of this either yeah so but but I think would be helpful and I think you're basically saying could could we create a safe harbor yes provision that says because that's the problem I see with the existing code and I asked for code enforcement attorney I don't have a response yet but if we had to enforce this in court I don't know that it would be it may be difficult for us to I can see a defendant saying well I don't know what ongoing meain to revent the doed I mean they can argue that our code is ambiguous and it's it's unenforcable because it doesn't say what the maintenance activities are so I think what Keith is saying is he wants to create guidelines for maintenance to prohibit these invasive species to be clear I want to help do that I don't know if I necessarily I want to be raising the banner on this but but again just to be clear that's a an establishment of to control air potato you do ABC to do this you do D and F it's not developer the HOA will come up with a plan on how they're going to manage it well you could refer to that manual this code right right but I mean they could put the manual is my my biggest heartburn I want that manual like gone I mean you could put all of those techniqu maintenance techniques in the code but it's going to make the code longer was development guide and the guidelines the references but our guidelines get put into the development review manual that's where we put them let's just think the best management practices the reference and that's that's the source so that that is rad development review that is the essential function of the development review manual it's simply for business procedures and reference materials different things like that not necess neily specific elements that would it is easier to amend the development say say some scientist comes up with some miracle for getting rid of kogan grass it's easier to amend the development review manual to add that technique into the manual then to amend the Land Development code so you could also the development manual or a couple sentences in the LDC could talk about the formatting of how this notice would be sent to the county you can always refer to the bmps through other organizations necessarily you don't need to create there's nothing we don't need to recreate the wheel I think Mr Moody's pointed out very clearly that people have been discussing this for a really long time what we're trying to do as all of the puzzle pieces here is quite honestly figure out how the applicants and the development Industry future land owners help us kind of figure this out so um I don't know really what the next step is I mean I'd be happy to work with the planning team on trying to clean up the guideline and make it a little more leaner and to address the concerns that I've heard today well but I think depends on what staff and the Planning Commission want to do but I mean if you if you if staff is okay with just adding a sentence to five that says that the permitted ongoing maintenance activities are set forth in the development review manual I mean that's a fairly simple change to the code and then you would then bring you know you bring those techniques into the man into the manual that's a very different change that's adding one sentence which is very different than what's before the Planning Commission today and would that then make it enforceable to code enforcement it would make I person again I'm not the code enforcement attorney but I think if there was objective criteria for maintenance outlin in that manual outlined in the manual it would make it easier for us toite people and enforce it because now you've got objective maintenance sorted Mr Moody's point this is sa this is the safe if you do these things you will have deemed to have met our [Music] code yeah I like that and and just to be clear we will do like you said that would be by reference in the manual because we're not going to spell out 100 Pages for stuff we're going to reference the best management practice at such and such a lot of this right so yeah so you know that will have the Cod am the LDC amendment is literally one sentence yes for this but I think you then would move all of your your maintenance requirements into the development review manual and that's where it's it you put them yeah now what it does get rid of to be clear if you go if you're willing to go in this direction is it gets rid of any reporting requirement and or plan requirement I I think again I think you got to start with at least putting you know uh you have a comp plan policy with nothing at least with not clear enough direction to County staff to to implement something so I think that's going in the right direction at the end of I mean I I I'm just again this is not my decision I'm not the policy maker but maybe you should if you tried that first where you create objective criteria in your development review manual and then you try to enforce it go ahead and start citing people for violating it and then if that's insuff efficient then you come back with something more substantive and say we tried we tried to do what Mr Moody suggested and it failed for the following reasons and so we have to do something more so stringent yeah so just kind of going back in history with Wetland infractions so the recommendation from the county attorney's office at the time was was to develop something in the LDC specifically that we can lean on to for enforcement but um as long as as long as it's enforcable I think we can actually you know at least take a stab at what you suggested well reading again I'm not conferred with all my code enforcement attorneys but my looking at five as is I think the the problematic sentence is the last sentence okay because it I'm not entirely sure whether a judge would say that's objective criteria for what is ongoing maintenance for to prevent the establishment of prohibited invas species because that could be many different things and then you got to battle the experts in the in the in court about the defendant calls an expert and says well I tried these things and it didn't work and then we call on that we so I think there probably is some Merit even that would help our code enforcement attorneys if there's objective maintenance criteria that says this is what we deem to be okay in terms of Maintenance so and I'm assuming you can come up with that because that was your intent yes um so do you have a language you want to recommend for the ordinance well I mean I guess the question really is I don't know what staff and Planning Commission want to do because that that's a very different ordinance from what's before you today what's before you today creates more of a plan and Reporting type requirement to deal with this issue the discussion we just had is more of beefing up the language that allows us to use code enforcement well if I can read the board I think that's the direction that so so I don't know whether staff would prefer that this be continued or staff would prefer that if if I could speak to that I think that uh probably the best thing to do in this situation is is if you do not like the way this ordinance was going that you would recommend denial of this ordinance to the board with the recommendation of the alternative that we just talked about the and it's change then we can take both forward and let the board work through which one they feel is best that's really up to the Planning Commission I I can't tell you what to do this is your now now it's a policy decision for you all as to what well I'd like to I'd like to I'm sorry we don't speak from the we don't speak on the floor she asking to speak she put her name on the list did you have your name on the list I did not I'm ma'am you can can't speak from the floor first of all if the chair is willing to let you speak you need to come to the podium but I don't know if the chair is okay yeah I'll let you speak this is very out of character so I app don't speak until you get to the microphone my name is Eva Bailey I live at 8915 qu Run Drive Wesley Chapel Florida and um this terrifies me I want that to be official so I'm not going to sound professional but I'm just listening to the conversation about requiring a developer to um monitor something and send a report in when they monitor that thing to show that they're doing what they say they're going to do is not a foreign thing to developers when they have to impact a wetland have to impact a wetland and then they have to recreate it somewhere else on their property to mitigate for that impact they have to plant a certain plant a certain size they have to then maintain that site to remove nuisance plants nobody tells them how to do it they just have to have nuisance plants below a certain percent cover so they pay people to do that and my company was one of those people um to do that so they maintain those plants they make sure they survive they make sure they get to a certain height they make sure they get to a certain cover the desirable native plants and that they keep the cover of nuisance plants below a certain small percentage so that site is successful and they have to do that until they are released from that monitoring now supposedly they have to do it imp perpetuity but as you say um when they're released who has time to go look at that again so many of these mitigation areas may become overrun by nuisance plants but still on the book books they have to still meet those success criteria and this is something developers have been having to do for a long long time and now it's as if asking a developer to report and maintain something is like a foreign thing I mean how could you ask us to do that well they've been having to do this kind of thing forever it will cost them some money yes absolutely and every person who buys a house in that development will probably pay a few dollars more because of it but nuisance plan really are something that need to be addressed in this County all over the state um the with Luchi came and laid a power pole on the side of the road in my neighborhood in preparation for putting it up and a few months later there was a line of kogan grass on the RightWay never had had C grass there before so that pole was probably laying in a field of cogon grass before they moved it they didn't know there you know there's nobody overseeing or making them make sure they weren't moving kogan grass excuse me to my neighborhood but they did and now I watch it March down the road and I've seen places out in the mining areas that are just solid kogan grass and and it's not just kogan grass but I'm just saying with some oversight and with some care that kind of movement of nuisance plants would not be as bad as it is now so education and and getting this kind of uh reporting and and um causing people to um excuse me thank you um to keep an keep watch on this and report on it I mean we're saying that what the County's doing now you've got an you've got a a code now and it's not working so to go back and say just use the code but wait a minute that's not working so just I don't think we're not we're not saying go back and use the code we're saying make itjust to the code but your 3 minutes is up and I can I ask appreciate the yeah go ahead quickly so are you aware that in the proposed ordinance there's no obligation for the developer to go into a wetland on site unless it's being impacted but non-impacted Wetlands to go in and remove nuisance and exotic species I did hear those words yes so that's so that actually contradicts just what you just said this ordinance I'm not saying I'm not saying you're wrong I'm very familiar with Wetland mitigation and the requirements to maintain and monitor and report back to the Water Management District but the staff's proposed ordinance actually doesn't even require them to go into the existing wetlands and remove Exotics and nuisance species which I was shocked frankly when I read that I think the I think the Keith Wy uh director of parks recreation National resource the purpose for that is there's already a permited function in place that addresses that Mr Moody so no reason to be duplicative yeah thank you so thank you for allowing me to okay so I do want to make one more comment and again it's up to Planning Commission about whether you go with what's before you or some modified version of E5 but if staff's intent is to not enforce this against individual residential lot owners which your current which your provision says the the ordinance before us says that you will not right then that would probably I said E5 the addition could be one sentence it probably needs to be two sentences if you're not going to enforce E5 against individual residential lawn owners we absolutely have to make sure that that's in there that's correct because E5 as written in theory would allow Mr Moody to call code enforcement on his neighbor if they had a single blade of C grass and he would too that was no I I I disagree with that because when a developer submits a landscape plan Associated he's not designing the Landscaping on every individual lot for instance at marada they're going to provide a landscape plan for their grand entrance with all the fancy fountains and all of that but they're not designing the Landscaping on Mr Gray's L yeah all I'm saying is that I think it would be helpful to not just clarify y the Safe Harbor issue but also clarify who we're going to enforce against if this is really developers HOAs and cdds it probably needs to come out and say that right as opposed to yes we we may need to actually one sentence is probably going to turn into a little paragraph but uh you know we also have the situation where we don't want to preempt an HOA or a CDD from dealing with a problem within their own subdivision um just because the county is saying that it's not going to within our jurisdiction we're not going to do it so like we may not want to go after an individual residential law I understand your point but arguably the residential LD is within the plan that was under review I not actually against what you're suggesting I would actually be supportive of what you're suggesting D yes okay so we can do that I did have one additional question there uh as far as procedurally are you are we going to need to R notice that that if that change is made and this goes to the with that is that a notice issue or well first of all your title gets a lot shorter um's that save a tree so but um I think we I prefer that you that you redo a notice for the board hearings I don't know that you need to re notice so this would go forward as a recommendation Of Denial on the same notice with an alternative recommendation I mean I guess one problem is as long as your title is I'm not sure you actually said you were amending E5 correct so that wasn't the intent so then you probably do need to to do a new notice the one the one section of the code you were not amending was the one we're talking about amending so yes he probably would need to Reen notice that okay so based on Planning Commission making an alternative recommendation we but but I'll be clear you can just Ren notice that for the board hearing it doesn't have to be you don't have to but it depends on what you all want to do I I'm not sure whether the consensus is this is just going to move on to the board or if the consensus is that you all want to continue this and have this come back to the Planning Commission that's not my call I I think a big component of this is enforceability which is really outside of our purview anyway so that's something the board is going to have to take up yeah I think that that I agree I I think that this probably should move forward one way or the other uh I don't know the continue is going to really gain much ground on it so I my personal preference would be to continue it so that we we can come back look at the proposal for an amended section 9005 and hopefully have some consensus amongst all of the parties and stakeholders I I hate to go to the board with a denial a recommendation of denial like that I think it's important that we have consensus and agreement yeah I tend to agree with that too so anyway I think we've heard everything we need to hear right can we are we at a point where we can make a motion how long would it take to come back with some alternative proposal that deals with Section 9005 rather than all these other rather than the proposal that's been placed on the table today I think that's the direction we want to go yeah you're not having to throw the baby out with the bath water with all the work that's been done obviously a lot of other stuff could move to that we do believe from what we've heard today that these are two very drastically different approaches so I I think that that we should move forward to the board with both um and if the Planning Commission doesn't agree with the ordinance change that we' suggested that that you make that clear by denying making a recommendation of denial of that ordinance with the alternative recommendation uh that David's book about that you guys seem to to be in agreement on and and we can move those both of those paths we do alternative recommendations all the time coming through this commission to uh the board of County Commissioners so I I don't think that's an issue it just keeps it moving BR the only potential issue would be that what are you going to notice going to the board I mean because the problem I mean let's just say the board agrees the Planning Commission if you don't notice a version of an ordinance that says you're amending E5 you kind of tied the board's hands they would have no ability to adopt the Planning Commission version of the ordinance wouldn't have been noticed so we could re notice for the board meeting specifically for the board meeting with the new information from the Planning Commission to noce both honestly I I really like the way John you the idea you have to come back and get a consensus that we can go to without money in the water and I just think that's the way to go you you get the public and everybody on board staff with what we finally decide if that's what the commission wants to do how long would that take could could it be done in another month or so to to what extent do we as the county team have a right to request this not go that way is there any we we feel that that's that's not really the right direction to take on us so well are you demanding that the Planning Commission vote on this ordinance I don't know what you're asking I know in in a traditional application that that the applicant can make that request that it be voted upon and moved forward but uh is that something what we want to do is continue it that's what that's what we want to do we don't want to vote on it right now CU we don't think we have all the what's the reason why you don't want to continue Brad is it a timing issue the board just wants something to get to them or it it seems like this is a this is a fairly simple change that's been requested by you guys and then it is uh you know a more complex ordinance that you know we feel is more in line with best practices so it's a decision that we don't want to make in this particular manner uh through this it is a policy decision that was said you know does the which way does the board want to go with that it really is we will present two very clear options but the only I guess the only I mean I guess I understand what you're saying we're just saying we'd like to see what the alternative option is that's going to be given to the board and we're not going to know what that is if you take just our denial and the recommendation for alternative language yeah but I think they're saying they don't want to take an alternative to the board well no I don't think that's what I heard them say I thought I heard them say they they want to take our recommendation of denial for this one but here's what we did recommend approval for well we don't know what we recommended approval for right but as as David outlined I mean it doesn't seem like we're trying like the alternative solution isn't really complicated I mean I think um procedurally I don't know how we how we do that quickly but we're talking about maybe at the most two or three sentences to the existing LDC correct so then I me should we not continue it for two weeks and you come back to the next Planning Commission meeting with the language rep Rich I'm surprised David hasn't already written it to be honest I sitting there I don't know what's going on David I probably could but but what I can't write what I can't write is what you would do in the development REM manual no and and so with that being the full package that you that I prefer to see it personally yeah cuz that's as I as I understood it that's more on the enforcement side of it we're just trying to get the we're trying to actually create the the mechanism to implement through a very simple modification to the LDC at this as the alter so Keith the reason I'm I'm struggling here is I don't know what staff is really want to do because you're saying somewhat something somewhat different than what Brad is saying but it sounds like what Brad is saying is he just wants to plany commission to vote this up or down and then make an alternative recommendation so so as I understood Brad he he's he's saying that obviously the ordinance presented today would be a denial and then we're all we're talking about voting on recommended language that would modify the other section of the code that we did not initially include in the notice so in order to do that we got to come up the with the language today yes sir as I yeah I mean the the no we don't I mean yeah I we've done this and I've we've done this before the addition to the LDC would be fairly simple but I guess the question is but I don't know I this is up to the Planning Commission I can't tell them what to do I don't know if they're comfortable moving that alternative forward if there's they don't have the language that's going to go in the manual the Safe Harbor language it's going to go in the manual so the the the issue with that is the development review manual is not a commission approved document in and of itself it's procedural it's based on business practices and other things so it's kind of a we want to see the changes to the Land Development code I I understand we don't approve what goes in the development manual but there's in order for you to do that there needs to be a change to the Land Development code which we do review and make a recommendation about and that's the three sentences three sent David was talking about that we can probably well I'd like the recommendation for continuance do we have on yeah it's up to you all I mean if you're asking whether I'm capable of drafting the three sentences I'm starting to feel like this is getting trying to be stuffed down our throat and I don't like that feeling you know I think we need I am capable of drafting three sentences to add to you5 between now and the board meeting I'm also capable of drafting it between now and the continued item too so this is really up to you all what you want to do I I can't can't tell you listen I'm I'm I'm going to tell you right now and I'm with Mr grg and I'm as a sitting planning commissioner who volunteers my time twice a month and you know what since the day I've been appointed I haven't missed one of these meetings I have put hours and hours and hours and I am tired of this this is you what you want to do is exactly what you wanted to do here with the development manual and the parking ordinance in other words you don't give a rats behind about what the planning commission's opinion or recommend is we're just going to you guys do this and we're going to go out and do our own thing well I'm sure the Commissioners are listening they're hearing what the planning commission's purview is today and I want to move to continue it for 60 days you have a second John what the 60 days just to give them adequate time to give them adequate time to revise the code as per our discussion bring back something that we can all have consensus on I'm willing to make that 30 days or two weeks I don't care I can second but I can second yeah you can second I mean I I could I could support that I think 60 days is a long time I don't think they need that long and I think the board wants to hear something and I understand they want to get to on October prior to October I don't necessarily politically agree with it but I'll play along with with that so what accept I I'll second the motion for 30 days the only question I have for staff is can you can you get a new notice for the E5 change done we for 30 days yes you can yes we can okay we need somebody said 2 weeks I wasn't sure if you could still do it in we couldn't do we couldn't do two weeks but we could certainly do 30 days yes okay okay so we have is there a date Planning Commission meeting date that's next planning the 30day from now approximately Planning Commission meeting date is August 8th 2024 1:30 here in Dave City so move Brad did you need to say something before there's a vote you give you gave me the finger there's no camera for the record can you clarify which finger looking at we all saw it we all saw it looking at date I know we have good one right September 17th is the the budget meeting for uh the board that this would kind of push us into that agenda range which could be a problem so um but I think 30 days for here pushes us to what what date for Planning Commission 88 88 okay so that way I guess the 30 days was 88 is a recommendation okay so we have a motion and second any further discussion on the motion if not all in favor signify by saying I oppose like sign motion carries you have a question from the clerk's office yes I just wanted to confirm it was Mr Moody that yes okay that it Denise can we go on motion Jared that's up to you and the plan Commission neor by okay [Music] [Music]