##VIDEO ID:U7VtnnG8ZZA## adequate notice of this meeting was provided in the following ways notice published in the ker news notice posted on the bulletin board of the municipal building notice made available to the Township Clerk notice sent to The Courier News and the Star Ledger will the clerk please call the role mayor Waller president councilwoman kill here miss corkran here Reverend Kenny here Mike Foster here Mr ahed yes here Madam chair here um Mr Baro would you read the open public meeting notice please certainly Madam chair uh this meeting is being conducted through an online meeting platform in keeping with the Department of Community Affair guidelines planning board has tried its best to comply with the up Public's meeting Act and the guidelines in dealing with the uh um online public meeting uh the applicant whose matter will be heard this evening had the login information for the online meeting platform in their notice members of the public who wish to be heard will be afforded an opportunity uh to be heard we just ask that you raise your hand at the appropriate um time frame and we'll do our best to comply with the guidelines and the open public meetings act thank you madam chair thank you if FL can be seen over my right shoulder can we all recite the uh Pledge of Allegiance I pledge allegiance the flag to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all uh can we have this wearing of the Prof of the professionals tonight please certainly um if Mr foot and Mr Clarkin if you could raise your right hand swear any testim get before this board this evening will be the whole truth so you gone I do I do Mr par are there any changes to our agenda tonight Madam chair the only um slight change is item number 12 the River Crest matter will be heard uh with number 11 they're going to just switch places and as I've previously advised Mr canel will be handling um the River Press matter because of a conflict so I will have to recuse myself okay um may I have a motion um from some members of the board to pay the duly audited bills uh r k i make a motion the bill uh can I get a second please okay Pro call please you get that okay I got everybody thank you mayor Waller yes councilwoman kahill yes Miss corkran yes Reverend Kenny yes Mr Foster yes Mr ahamed yes and Madam chair yes item number eight adoption of resolution to memorialize meeting of November 13th oh none We're not gonna do that no no okay move on to item eight I mean item nine adoption of the minutes for the regular meeting of November the 13 out make motion for the adoption November 13 2024 meeting thank you oh a second please I got you D thank you Mayer yes councilwoman kahill yes Miss Corran yes Reverend Kenny yes Mr Foster yes Mr ahamed yes and madam chair yes discussion for one-year extension uh of time for item 22 PB 06/07 Vias and Victor at 1112 Brookside Road lock 8001 lot n Tim Arch sorry uh go ahead Mr B I I was just going to say Madam chair this was a prior approval by the board uh for a subdivision minor subdivision on November 13 2024 uh Mr Arch from Mr pad's office had forwarded a letter ex uh requesting an extension of time um they're running into two issues the first is they have an njde permit that has been filed and they're waiting for um sign off from the de um the second matter is they're purchasing a 10-ft strip of property from Piscataway Township it's my understanding from speaking to Mr Clarken that that should hopefully take place by the end of January as a result of those two items I guess as an abundance of caution they've ex requested an extension of time uh for one year till November 16 2025 Mr pad if you have anything else you want to add to that feel free couldn't have said it better myself so um it's uh it seems to be a reasonable request and if it's the board's pleasure Madame chair um it would be appropriate for a motion to Grant the extension of time okay do I have a motion from the board for to Grant this extension request motion councilwoman kill do I have a second D Coran second roll call please mayor Waller yes councilwoman kahill yes Miss Corr yes Reverend Kenny yes Mr Foster yes Mr mamed yes and Madam chair yes and Madam chair i' have um just to dot my eyes and cross my tees I I did prepare a resolution um confirming the extension of time if the board wants to grant that that's one less thing you have to do it next month's meeting okay do I have a motion to Grant the to propose the resolution to Grant this extension of time uh Madam chair Rend Kenny extend extension of time so move do I have a second I will second the resolution Madam chair roll call please mayor Waller yes councilwoman K yes Miss corkran yes Reverend Kenny yes Mr Foster yes Mr Ahmed yes and Madam chair yes thank you Madame chair since the next matter is um number 12 the River Crest I will step out um and allow Mr canel to take over and I'll come back when it's when it's done and and be ready for snack Innovations okay Mr canel good evening Madam chair and members of planning board uh this is a a discussion of whether or not property located at River Crest Drive and Orchard Street meets the criteria to be determined as a non condemnation area in r in need of Redevelopment I believe you have your your planner here uh Mr Clarkin who performed that study stud who will give you a briefing on his findings I'm for with Mr Mr Clark and you have already been sworn in you want to thank you very much Madame chairwoman uh I believe I'm sharing my screen you are all right so I will get into it so as Mr can so kindly said uh my name is James Clark and foresight planning I prepared this study for this board this is for Block 7305 Lots 1901 20 and 21 um I'm actually going to skip ahead all the way to the end uh because you'll see a nice little map so we can just get some context of where we are in terms of the township so uh if you were going along River Road and you took River Crest drive all the way to the end you would hit River Crest Cabana Club um so as you can see lot but as you can see mostly residential uh surrounding the club you have kakc Middle School you have Martin Luther King uh right next door is a rehab center um and North is the former Ericson site so skipping a back three maybe um I'll kind of give some more context as to um current conditions oh skip too many uh you know just describing these Lots so um as I said lot 19.01.2016 Orchard Street and Lot 21 5170 orchest Street which is about .09 acres um as I said they were they are paper Street lots and were never constructed um and they've really just become a part of the gravel parking lot for the pool um no need for that street ever arose so it just was never constructed and kind of just stayed that way uh this entire study area all three lots is within your r10 residential Zone which as you know is primarily single family residential so during my on-site investigation back at on September 30th of this year um I observed the conditions and as you can imagine the summer swim club was uh shut down for the summer season um so no one was there everything was kind of packed up for this uh for the fall and the winter but um basically what is there today on the parcel is a six Lane 25 yard swimming pool you have a smaller Kitty pool a one-story Cabana Club um a small half story pump house two storage sheds a party 10 a volleyball court basketball court diving board and other accessories tables things of that nature that you would typically find it's such a cool Club so the Cabana Club itself is probably the biggest structure or is the biggest structure on the property uh it has an open air entryway a lifeguard office two bathrooms and a kitchen all found within that one story Cabana Club and it's not more than 2,000 square feet uh the half story pump house is sort of half built into the ground behind the pool it includes all your pumps filters plenty equipment that you would find to operate two pools um that is located there it's pretty small only about 100 square feet um so just as a note uh that in discussions with the president of this swi club uh it was advised that membership has significantly declined in the last few years where really the swim club is not really able to survive economically you know expenses continue to rise as we've all seen um in this economic environment um and total membership fees are declining so at the conclusion of the 2025 s Swim Club season or summer season I should say uh they plan to close down pretty good um and it's my opinion that the state of disrepair substandard and all un wholesome conditions for both the patrons and the workers there may have contributed or did contribute to the decline in membership um and ultimately leading to the decision to close the pool permanently uh we did do some you know due diligence as always no building or zoning records were found for this uh lot though uh however it is in your SE service area and also dual diligence was also done for environmental concerns and uh nothing came up not even Wetlands not one hit for njd so uh no environmental concerns for these three lots uh I think I already went over the surrounding Lane uses on the map so I'm going to skip to the master plan perspective uh which is pretty consistent through all the study studies that I prepare for this board so that you know as you know vac can develop a land is very rare in this Township and this increases opportunities for redevelopment and since this was first developed in 1960 this definitely counts as an older section of the township that is right for redevelopment in my opinion uh so now that I've kind of given some context uh of where we are and what is the current conditions I'm going to show you some photos of what I found when I was there so this first photo is kind of looking at the Cabana Club on the inside so that first door right there is the Lifeguard office there's a middle door for a man's restroom and then uh towards the end was the snack bar such kitchen um this is an outdoor view of the clubhouse and you kind of see the volleyball court as well um so you can see that the construction is original back to when it was first open in 1960 nothing has changed just one story uh center block structure moving on um you can kind of see just this is is more off to the side of the Cabana Club um but the first picture or that I think shows some of the UN wholesome conditions right here is a picture of the woman's restroom which lacks proper Ada access and I'm pretty sure the layout does not meet building code you know when this was built it was you know the building codes weren't the same as they are today and just the layout and the footprint um me may not meet code which makes it un wholesome in my opinion uh here's a picture of the life Guard Office which as you can see is very small it definitely could not serve all the staff members that were hired during the summer season as there's only one desk um and not really enough room for everyone that needs uh work in space um this is the curb um or entryway sidewalk I should say from the gravel parking lot and as you can see just not graded properly for Ada access um just another lack of improvements that have not occurred since it was really open it's just a view of the gravel parking area that was never improved this is another picture of the men's room um as you can see no Ada stall um very tight quarters probably does not me building code if it uh were to be inspected today this is a view uh actually kind of looking North that's the Party 10 I mentioned and then this is the first picture of the kitchen SL snack bar um you can see the hot water heater under there um and the small ventilation fan that I don't think Whi codes uh standards today for a modern kitchen um and then you you can kind of see the tight Quarters here all the storage space the three fridges and it's actually blocking a window um which is another lack of um outside access um this is just a y view area you can see the pump house in the back and those are the two pools um closer view of the tent and the shed um um and then another thing is the pump house was also built originally in 1960 and it has not had major improvements so um I think that in itself is substandard uh to today's requirements and then a few other photos of the other shed towards the rear um definitely too close to the property line and some inadequate storage um and I think yeah that's pretty much it so um now on to applying the statutory criteria So based on these conditions is my opinion that in these criteria a which is uh the buildings are showing conditions that are in a state of disrepair substandard unsafe um and have UNH wholesome guest and working conditions that have left in their current state is unsafe to the health safety and Welfare of the public um there's substandard structures that have not been improved as I said very small compact unsafe spaces no Ada access um and the Lifeguard office is not large enough to handle uh all the staff levels but also more importantly just ventilation and lack of air conditioning on these very hot summer days as they get hotter is definitely of a safety concern um as I said the restrooms and the kitchen definitely seem or are showing lack of ADA access and ventilation concerns um and so overall I think that lot of the Redevelopment code or um law I should say now criteria e is more concerned with um two primary factors that have to be met in order for the properties to meet the criteria so the first is diverse ownership um or diverse ownership a title that discourages undertaking improvements and I think this is not sure why that skipped ahead but um I definitely think that's the case here um as the two paper Lots paper Street lots that I mentioned are owned by the township sorry I jump around um so that's one owner and then the riverest Cabana Club is the private owner of the actual pool so this diverse ownership of the respective properties has been an impediment impediment to land assemblage um and hinders Redevelopment of all three lots into a more modern and better use so sorry was there a question um so yeah so by creating a single parcel um in would possibly create one owner for the V uh for the Redevelopment process um and put us in more productive use than currently exists today um and then sorry um I was talking about diversity of ownership and the other is lack of um proper utilization of the Lots uh which I also went into um you know it's definitely have note that neither of the paper streets have ever had a need for either the township because there was just no need for Access for a new neighborhood and also um it's never been developed by private Capital either as there's been no need for those two small paper lots and the pool so with those two portions of the criteria being met I think that criteria e of the local Redevelopment and Housing law applies to all three study law areas or study Lots I should say um and I think designating them as such would open up more opportunities for land assemblage and Redevelopment to reverse the negative conditions um and then finally criteria H as you know is the Smart planning criteria um I think redeveloping this would be a really great opportunity for infill um on a small scale that would Advance smart growth proper principles such as a walkable community near schools and Recreation Parks um and it would provote development in an area of existing infrastructure given that the residential neighborhood is already there you have proper access roads and Sewer Service and all those important infrastructure needs for such a small scale infill so I find that the study area also meets the age criteria so in summation I recommend that this board and the township Council designate the study area an area in need of Redevelopment based on the fact that block 7305 Lot 19 .01 meets criteria a and that lots 19.12 and 21 meets criteria e and H um if we move forward with that we'll be able to prepare a Redevelopment plan that would also go before this board um and hopefully reverse the stagnant conditions that I've shown in this report um so it's my recommendation that we designate the study area as a non-c condemnation area in need of Redevelopment so with that I can take some questions thank you could you take uh your exhibit down thank you members of the board do you have any questions of Mr um Clarken at this time regarding his testimony Madam chair it's councilwoman kahill U Mr Clarken um I was regoing I was relooking through your report um did I see and I apologize now I can't exactly find it did I see a space where it's the recommend for um an area of Redevelopment but without a suggested use or am I wrong on that yeah usually in need of Redevelopment studies do not suggest a use um I just think um possible uses could be residential in nature um given the location to schools Parks Etc on a small scale infill okay very good thank you so much any other members of the board have questions then I think we should open it up to the public for any questions that they may have on this um testimony uh members of the public anyone in the public wishing to make a comment on um this testimony by Mr um Clarken regarding the Redevelopment um this area in need of Redevelopment no one chairwoman thank you close to the public at this point Madam chair if there's no more discussion uh if you if the board uh agrees with Mr Clark's findings then you would entertain a motion uh to find this area to be in need of Redevelopment on a non-c condemnation basis would someone like to make that motion Madam chair don't cor and I will make that motion thank you get do I have a second Reverend Kenny I'll second that motion thank you roll call please mayor Waller yes councilwoman K yes Miss corkran yes Reverend Kenny yes Mr Foster yes Mr hammed yes and Madam chair yes uh Madam chair in anticipation of that vote this evening I have prepared a resolution which is before you recognizing uh that finding thank you Mr canel um would a member of the board like to propose this resolution or Rec this resolution move this resolution I should say and can I so move this resolution uh as an area in need of uh an area of Redevelopment do I have a second please thank you roll call Mayor Waller yes councilwoman kahill yes Miss Corrin yes Reverend Kenny yes Mr Foster yes Mr ahed yes and Madam chair yes that concludes my service to the board this evening have a good evening everyone I'll return you to Mr Barlo thank you very muchy thank you see you tomorrow Jim thank you Jim um item number 11 snack Innovations 41 eel Road 21 PB 3637 V and Victor amendment to Prior uh approved in reference to the mezzanine Space Mr Kevin Morris attorney thank you good evening madam and women members of the board my name is Kevin Morse attorney Woodbridge New Jersey appearing on behalf of the applicant snack Innovations Incorporated subject properties at 41 e Road West in Piscataway uh the board's familiar with the site uh snack Innovations uh produces manufactures healthy snacks uh been conducting business in the municipality at that location for a number of years the business is doing well it continued to grow and we appeared before this board back in 2022 and received site plan and bulk variant approval for the applicant to uh construct a substantial addition to its existing facility at the property for warehouse uh area and office space uh part of that approval included uh a variance for 57 parking spaces the approval was memorialized by a resolution dated February 9th of 2022 now subsequent to the approval the applicant had switched its uh engineer to a project engineer switched its architect and over the last two years has been constructing and has uh for all intents and purposes finished a really beautiful addition and nice sight improvements but with the switching uh of the architect some confusion ensued and uh the applicant constructed a 2,984 foot mezanine within the approved Warehouse area you know the architect was under a misapprehension that mezanine space in aare warehous does not constitute Flor space I can tell you in some municipalities that is the case that is not the case in wridge Township but in any event 2900 uh 2984 square feet of mezzanine that was not approved uh was constructed in the existing approved building now that mezzanine area would require parking at one uh parking space for every 500 square feet 5.97 a total of six spaces we have a parking variance for 57 spaces so uh there was no parking on site available for the mezzanine area that's the bad news the good news is part of the original approval called for the applicant to construct 1,000 square fet of additional office space area now that office space area at 1 for20 uh square feet would would equate to five spaces so uh the applicant the construction is done they're Desperately Seeking to get a TCO and and conduct their business operations so the solution we propose for you is the applicant is prepared to forego the construction of the 1,000 square 1,000 foot of office space if we do that because it hasn't been constructed yet uh that frees up five parking spaces we need one additional space for the mezzanine area it's inside the approved building and that additional space can be achieved by simply striping a space in the constructed and approved parking area there'll be no amendments or physical construction necessary to put this face in and thus no increase in impervious coverage so that's how we get to the six spces uh and the applicant understands should the board look favorably on adjusting the approval uh to accommodate this that if in the future the uh applicant seeks to construct that 1,000 s foot office space or any other improvements that they would have to come back to the board because that would trigger a requirement to get an amended site plan approval this is really an adjustment to an existing approval but this uh solution today that we propose Keeps Us in parity with the 57 parking spaces that were approved and will allow the applet to go forward and get its uh operations underway in its beautiful new facility and to enjoy the benefit of substantial investment it has made in the scway business Community to make healthy snacks for all of us so that's our request I submitted a letter uh to that effect with two sketches the uh sketch set equipment mezzanine it's really just a warehouse mezzanine that's how the architect labeled it um but it's simply Warehouse area and we request that you look favorably upon this request to accommodate the adjustment and again we maintain parity required parking and no changes to the uh existing constructed approved site plan Madam chair if I may just just briefly this is one of those cases where really little little dominous changes the staff can can handle those inhouse and and and deal with them this isn't a full-blown change that would require Mr Morris to come back for an amended site plan with experts and things like that it kind of in a gray area I think it's a little bit bigger than the staff can just you know do in-house on their own and that's why Mr Morris uh is in front as he indicates it doesn't change the the proposed change would keep the parking where it is M Mr Morris I just had one question for clarification just so I have it in my own head in the prior resolution on on page two paragraph 4 the applicant had proposed 1420 square foot office mezzanine oh that was that was existing that okay so you're not it's not that you added to that it's just a new section with 2984 correct okay because I was saying if you were just adding the 1500 it it might even make it more dominous correct correct okay okay so it's a new construction right within the warehouse okay right so again Madam chair this is more for the board to consider Mr Morris's um request um and if the board feels it's a that the slight change is appropriate um I think uh just a a motion approving the change would be appropriate and that would give the staff the ability to um inspect and and issue the you know Co I guess is what Miss cork can speak to that is the hold up right they came in for a zoning permit which was denied because this wasn't part of the original approval so if the board does look favorably upon this then the applicant can reapply for their zoning permit and then the construction official and his Department can finish the review Jingle Bells I'm going to apologize that is my clock I will turn take invaded by jingle bille this I thought I thought I was in Disney World for a moment I'm sorry you do but staff staff has no issue with this um oh okay so okay board members is it does everyone agree or have any questions Miss Cel anyone hearing no questions on the board uh would someone like to propose a resolution or motion motion this cochan Madame chair I will make the motion that um the there that this matter be approved that they can construct the 2,984 foot mezanine um and they will add the additional parking space as Mr Morris has indicated and with the understanding that if they do add that office space later they'll have to come back before the board for S perfect do I have a second second motion R Kenny I second thank you roll call please mayor Waller yes councilwoman kahill yes Miss corkran yes Reverend canny yes Mr Foster yes Mr Ahmed yes Madam chair yes thank you I thank you ladies and gentlemen uh my last planning board meeting for the year so the best to all for happy holidays and a blessed New Year and same to you same to you Kevin thank care Kev thank you for switching that prior matter also much appreciate um item number 13 24 pb1 189v is in Victor gwl for Corporate Place LLC preliminary and final site plan in both variants good afternoon Madam chair members of the board afterno David pad from Bob Smith and Associates uh for the applicant gwl for corporate LLC um property is at for Corporate Place block 50001 lot 2.02 in the li5 zone uh this is a continuation hearing uh we had the first hearing on November 13 2024 it was a preliminary final sight plan with bulk variances to remove an existing office space and Patio area from an existing warehouse and construct 13 truck loading spaces 11 tractor trailer storage spaces with 219 parking spaces a bio retention Basin and some other site improvements as well um we requested two bulk variances for a minimum rear yard setback uh where 50 ft is required and 49.62 ft is existing and for off street parking we're 286 space are required and 219 spaces are proposed with 8 EV charging spaces um the applicant at the prior hearing agreed to install the fiber optic conduits excuse me along the property Frontage eliminating that variance and also install fencing around the proposed bio retention Basin also eliminating that variance um I believe testimony was completed on November 13 2024 but the board uh decided to postpone the vote if so the applicant can provide a written letter from the uh current tenant who was a bit difficult stating that the tenant will vacate at the end of January 2025 such written confirmation has been provided to the board's professionals and it was submitted prior to this hearing um tonight I have all of the uh applicants professionals available um I don't have any direct questions for any of the witnesses but they are available if the board should have any questions and with that I'll leave it to the board members of the board do you have any questions of the witnesses that appeared previous in our previous meeting they're available for your questioning M Madam chair if I may jump in um I I guess Miss corkrin I guess what do we exact I remember when we left off the last one what assurances if we approved this tonight that this is actually gonna I guess they won't be able to pull building permits or anything like that correct I I did I just want to say I did go back out to the site today um and quite frankly there's just trailers all over that property you cannot circulate that site um I think it is extremely important that we do condition if the board looks favorably upon this that there' be a condition that no zoning permits no building permits can be granted until all these violations have been addressed and until the tenant has leave left the premises and and if I can just follow up on that may my understanding is the and Dawn correct me if I'm wrong The Code Enforcer also went out um and inspected it and and absent the trailers he felt that there had been significant Improvement to the site in terms of the other items that were of concern to the board and the board's Professionals in the past it's those trailers and I guess I don't want to speak for the applicant but I assume the trailers will go when the tenant goes but I would certainly uh urge the board as a condition of any approval to put that nothing will be issued in terms of building permits zoning permits anything of that nature until um the tenant has vacated and those items have been remediated and we and again Mr pad's correct the letter was submitted from the tenant indicating the target date for the vacation is there a Target a stated Target date yes 13125 Madam chair that will be incorporated in the motion if the board uh acts favorably I would suggest that a condition of approval be that you know that and that nothing will they can have their resolution they're just not going to move forward until um the the municipality is satisfied that the the site has been remediated appropriately and I think that would be a fair compromise Mr pad do you have any objection to that oh no we anticipated this would be a condition of the approval I spoke to the applicant earlier today and they completely understand they want the tenant out of there as much as you do uh should we open to the public um you should again Madam real chair real quickly members of the public this is a continuation of a previous um application uh before the board did our previous meeting on November the 13th um if anyone in the public would like to ask any questions about this application would you please s raise your hands and indicate your question did you have a question no Madam chair uh close to the public okay board members would someone like to make a motion just I should have put this on the record and I apologize and I didn't mean to cut you off the Record should reflect that while Mr Atkins was present for the last hearing he is not present today so he would not be voting Mr Foster who was not present at the last hearing um but is present this evening um has reviewed the transcript of the hearings and has uh signed the appropriate document indicating he is fully familiar with the facts of the case and he would be entitled to vote so he's eligible to vote okay yes Madam chair so I just wanted to put that on the record thank you thank you would someone like to make a motion incorporating all of a discussion that we've had conditions Reverend Kenny I'll make a motion that we go forward with this application uh pending uh the conditions are met uh as I had stated before uh this is the reason why we're having this discussion again tonight because of the cleanup it wasn't completed and the applicant wasn't ready to move but according to this date uh if the complies with everything I uh make a recation that we approve who I have a second Madam chair who's that whose name is that who's making that second okay Mr Mr Barlo Mr Barlo will uh enumerate all the in the conditions I'm sorry madam chair you will enumerate the conditions they will be set forth in the resolution 100% Madam chair everything that's been agreed to on the record I will incorporate into the resolution for next month thank you roll call please mayor Waller yes councilwoman kahill yes Miss corkran yes Reverend Kenny yes Mr Foster yes Mr ahamed yes and Madam chair yes thank you thank you Madame chair and members have a great night happy holiday holid happy holidays take care item number 14 lrn properties LLC bulk variants and minor subdivision 24 PB 89z sorry I have a problem Mr Wy you were there um yes this is an application for a minor subdivision that would permit us to uh renovate an existing house which has a lot of uh deficiencies as an older home uh and it also would project that on the adjacent subdivided lot a new single family home would be erected uh tonight we have our uh site engineer our uh architect as well as our U planner uh we also have uh the principal of lrn properties who actually this is her family's property uh if they could have testify if there becomes certain questions uh with the application so without further Ado I'd like to start with uh Les Walker our engineer Mr Walker if you could state your name spell your last name for the record and give us your professional address sir sure uh Lesley l l e Walker w l k r um my addresses Meridian engineering located at 1199 anoy Avenue uh Suite 1D in Edison New Jersey if you raise your right hand you swear the testimony give before this board will be the whole truth I do your witness Mr Wy uh yes uh Mr Walker could you describe the existing condition on the property Mr Wy can you just uh qualify him first oh yes I'm sorry you correct so what licenses do you possess with the state of New Jersey I am a licensed professional engineer and have been uh for over 20 years and my license is a good standing and you were this I've been in front of this board before I have a a master's and a bachelor's degree from Ruckers University in civil engineering testified through throughout the state probably you know for for the last 20 plus years um all through middlex County Somerset hun in and then further north and south um on a more limited basis but I have been in front of this board uh previously and I'd like to be deemed as an expert in engineering he's accepted thank you uh could you describe uh to the board what the existing conditions are of the property at 60 North nor the drive sure um let me pull up share my screen what I'm going to share is a colored rendering of the the proposed site but you can see the surrounding uh improvements um on that plan um walk there Mr Walker Mr Wy will'll Mark that as A1 and then any other exhibits you're going to utilize A2 A3 Etc yeah this is the only one it hasn't been been submitted um to to the board as a whole I did send it over to miss qurin and uh Miss Buckley earlier this evening y um on the the site is known as lot 1.01 in Block 3805 60 Normandy Drive in the township of scataway the irregularly shaped lot has approximately 15,480 kind of two overlapping triangles um with the one further to the West being the larger of the two triangles um it has Frontage on Normandy uh to the North Hancock to the west and a and a very small less than one foot long um odd Frontage on on Bristol um that that is creates a a an existing condition variance um it has an existing single family home um on uh where where one of the the the two homes shown in the plan here is the one further down the page on the right um there's an existing home there um it uh it's if if you're familiar with the site if you've taken a driveby you know you can tell that it's a it's an older home the first floor actually you step down one step when you go into the home from from the grade you step down um and and the the lower level you it has like squatty Windows because it's it's got low ceilings um so it's it's definitely a a a home that needs a little bit of love um there are a handful of existing trees on the site generally along the streets and the rest of the the site um outside of the home the driveway and the you know is is grass right now um you see on the on the plan um the uh we're proposing uh two homes a subdivided lot that would create a lot um to to build a second home and then some some modifications additions deletions um on the the existing home that that we will uh get through in testimony here um the the improvements shown along Normandy Drive um on this plan are um uh from a Remington berck plan that they prepared for the township the township is um looking to undergo Capital Improvements so long Normandy um maybe in in conjunction with a a warehouse that's going to be coming in the neighborhood um I I believe it's already been approved um but there's Remington vernick's plan is incorporated into into our site plan here um and then we show some some additional um improvements um that the applicant would make um outside of of those uh those Normandy Drive and intersection Handcock improvements um that that the app would would have to go on under goale um so as I said we're we're seeking to subdivide minor subdivision just to to create kind of really two triangle Lots instead of one double triangle um each each um home the new home and then the the modification of the existing home would would end up having uh four bedrooms and a two-car garage um the uh uh Lot B is the smaller of the two triangles again at the bottom on the existing home that that lot is the smaller of the two it would have approximately 5,812 square feet um the architect will cover in detail that the changes that at home but generally removing the first story uh uh the uh portion in the back of the the the first story Edition in the back um I looked at historic maps and uh it goes goes back at least 25 years and then after that the the older Maps get kind of grainy um but there's an there's an an addition one story Edition in the back of the existing house that actually um is over the property line by um 2.8 feet I believe it is onto lot 5.01 um and that's been there for many many years um but this with this with the modifications to that home um we'd be looking to demolish that part have it removed and have it um um off of the adjacent property correct that situation um the um we'd be removing they they're going to remove the Second Story uh raise the ceilings on the lower level raise the floor I I I spoke earlier about the the floor when you first walk into the house is is actually a step down raising that floor up to a reasonable so that you're not stepping down you're stepping up into the the the the home and then um raise that the ceiling so you have regular height ceilings and um then adding a second story with a new Second Story with um you know three bedrooms um so to to get to the the fourth bedroom one of those bedrooms would be on the first floor and that's that's for an aging parent that the applicant is um is taken care of um they are uh they'll also be adding a garage and um a small front forch to give the the front of the house some character the second lot on the the top here is um that lot is is 9,596 square feet um and it's a it's a new construction four bedroom uh uh two-car garage home um and uh um you know the architect will get into specifics on that but again both are four bedrooms and uh two car garage um in addition to the frontage improvements on on Normandy I said we you know the applicants going to be installing sidewalks curbs and Road widening to get to the full 15 foot half width cartway on on the the the applicant side of Hancock um and then with a taper at the end um sidewalk uh driveway opening you know all those Street trees both nor and Hancock um for grading and drainage um the site generally drains from the south to the north towards Normandy um the per the the township requirements we are we've we've designed dry Wells that will handle three inches of of um runoff from their roof areas U during during you know a fairly substantial storm um to to put those and drywalls in the ground and then um once those are filled it's a simple you know bypass at at the down spot at the house and it'll run over the grass just like probably uh just about every house in that neighborhood currently does um with the exception that that thieves will have dry Wells to accommodate that first um bit of water that comes off the roof um the there sanitary gas water there are all available in the road um the the improvements to Normandy by the township are in include incorporating a storm sewer that does not currently exist along that street with the exception of one small um great Inlet up at the the intersection of hanok and Normandy but um there are several inlets and pipes right along our property Frontage um that that the the town is going to be installing and then we are also including the FI required fiber optic twin conduit along Normandy and Hancock Frontage lighting and Landscaping really there's there's no lighting other than traditional um residential lighting you know a light by the garage a light at each U external um doorway um and and that's really it for lighting um we are pro yeah proposing six foot uh PVC fence vinyl fence um to infill um where needed U there are there are existing fences um around the back back sides and these and sides of the properties and just wherever there's a gap or or um it's needed to to infill we're going to continue the same fence that's there and just um just put in new panels where needed um in the the backyard of Normandy which which or the backyard of of lot a which is the new home at the top um that backyard actually faces Normandy and and anywhere along the backyard there and then anywhere where there's aoke or something in a a front or sidey yard and we are proposing a 4ot picket style fence um with with some Landscaping along the bottom of it um so in addition to the the six Street trees we're also proposing eight evergreen trees and then um like I said along the fences along the foundations of the homes that the front the front that are homes um we're doing in proposing 119 shrubs and um that that will pretty it up nice and and make give it a good curve appeal so um as noted in the the township reports um there are a number of variances uh required um for this application um so minimum lot area required is 10,000 square fet um lot a as I said is 9,596 square fet and Lot B is 5,812 square ft um the planner will get into it but there are numerous other um Lots in the neighborhood that are substandard in size um minimum Frontage um this is an existing condition um down at Bristol where I where I mentioned there's like 64 feet of Frontage actually around the corner on the Bristol um that's an existing condition we can't do anything about minimum lot dep where 100 100 feet is required um lot a right here in the in the the tightest part of the two triangles um has a lot depth of 55.8 n feet um again that's that's existing today and it'll remain um no change um it just it just becomes a variance because we're changing the configuration of the Lots um lot um B um because of U you know the way the lot depth is measured um that'll actually have a dep of 76.5 square F feet um again it's it's just a it's a function of the shape of the lot U minimum front yard setbacks for lot a um the new home we are showing uh proposing to 25 feet or 35 feet is required on Hancock and 24 and A5 ft in the back um along Normandy um Lot B the existing home home the existing home is is right now it's it's less than 10 feet off of the the right of way um with the addition of a small porch to to provide a little bit of character on the front of the house um that goes down to 6.7 feet um so that's a a variance that that exists today but we're making it a three feet tighter than than it currently is sidey yard uh again with the with the addition of the garage um for the existing home um the side yard um from the garage um uh to the the side property line along lot uh 8.01 is 5.7 feet where 10 ft is required minimum rear yard for again for the existing home um I mentioned before it's 2.8 feet over the property line so so it's a negative 2.8 feet um setback um with the with the removal of that portion of the building um it would bring it back onto to the the applicant side of the line and it would be 1.2 feet off the property line I mean that's that's the that's the the location of the existing twostory portion of the house so it's not moving moving the line expanding the the house in that corner it's just that's after we take off the the one story Edition that um encroaches on to lot 5.01 that's where the corner of the existing structure is um finally finally maximum lot coverage um we're fine on lot a but Lot B the again the existing home with modifications um the we are at 28.8% where 20% maximum is um required in the ordinance um we we were um under a a previous version of the plan we've submitted this is our fourth submission of these plans under uh during the the U the workshop meeting at it was um suggested that we add a garage um we added a two-p par garage and that's what um caused us to go over that 20% and at the time the discussion was that that the the lot coverage VI uh variance violation would be um more um amendable to the board than than having a no garage on the home um so U there are two existing non-conformities that are being um eliminated um by the the application as well there's a shed in the back of the existing home and non-conformities for side and rear yard setbacks to that shed um are being eliminated so in summary on the the variances there are 10 bulk variances required six are created by the proposed development three are non-conforming conditions due to the irregular shape of the parcel um one is an existing non-conforming condition that we're improving that's that's the the rear setback on lot lot B and then we have two existing U two existing violations that are being U eliminated corrected um I can stop or I can roll right into the the township professional letters I just want to add just one thing in terms of the parking standards we now meet both rsis standards as well I'm sorry yes that that's correct two for for a four-bedroom house two and a half um parking spaces required with a with a two-car garage and a um minimum 20 foot wide um driveway that that equates in in the residential site Improvement standards that's three and a half spaces so two required three and a half provided um for each lot so so we meet the parking standard for for both Lots so then let's do the review of the reports okay so as I said that we we've already submitted we've submitted four times gotten feedback from professionals or at the uh at the workshop meeting um and um the uh letter came back from um CME um this morning um and there's only one minor um note correction that that is noted um in that letter and and we have no problem taking care of that um the Delaware and RAR Engineers um letter um that came in November 13th of this year excuse me Mr Walker Mr Walker just with the CME report what's the one item it was a it was a a note in the a a number in the bulk table we actually had a side yard I believe a lot depth indicated for lot a um that was um less than what um the the um the town planner measured it as so so they had say say our number was 71 uh feet it's really like 75 feet so we're going to make that correction it's it's um it's it's um in our favor and um yeah we agree to make that that change um the Charlie's letter from Delaware and R and Engineers really had nothing we agree to everything that's in his letter um you know as I said we we've submitted on several occasions and um there's there's only you know General General comments about U you know if a a pre-construction meeting is required and stuff like that so all boiler plate stuff that that we have no problem with um the um the uh division of engineering Planning and Development Meo memo dated June 25th revised December 9th of this year um the only the only question and I already kind of covered it um we're okay with everything um number four com uh was a comment about the lot B on the existing home um parcel being um 28.8% um maximum coverage um where 20% is allowed and there was suggestion that we should reduce the garage or reduce the house or something to to get it more in line um that was that was a you know again that was that was a a a matter of discussion at the the workshop meeting and that's why um the house looked the way it does today because we went back and updated it per um recommendations during that meeting um but everything else we have no problem I'm complying with I just wanted to to put that one on record Madam chair can I jump in I I just want to let the counselor for the applicant and the professionals know in the 30 years that I've been involved in planning this town i' we've never approved anything in this magnitude of um with the oversized coverage you have a a lot it's a 10,000 squ foot Zone you only have the existing house and I know the property very well 5,800 square feet you're asking for almost 28% overcoverage we've never ever approved anything like that 28% is what's required and and or 20% is what's required and we're at 28 I know over we've never ever approved anything at 28% my advice is go back slice that living space to new with in half and then maybe do a onear garage and then it'll substantially down you got to remember that house sits right on the road it's an older house it sits right on the road you're you're potentially going to have a brand new lot next door and I know that the property is irregularly shaped and it's challenging but you know you can't have everything here I mean I just I've I've never seen it I know this is unusual application but you know 30 plus years we've never approved anything with this much overcoverage and Madame chair if I may this is D Corin the staff has consistently expressed Our concern about the size of these dwellings about the coverage yes we did suggest that a garage be added to the home but that was also under the with the understanding that the home would be reduced in size that being said um I do have one question with regard to the calculation of the 28.8% building coverage did that also include the proposed covered porch I would have to go back and look at that I believe that it did but I would have to go back and review that that's just something that I I wanted to bring up I was running the numbers this afternoon and I I don't believe it it did I you know again you can correct me but I think the coverage may even be slightly higher um you know I I if I may also add and I'm concerned about the there's I believe on one of the houses there's uh access points to the basement from the outside um very concerned about that also concerned about two front inches I just don't want this turning into a rooming house in the neighborhood and then it becomes an enforcement action I this has Council let me finish this has the writing of that now I know that maybe the the owners whoever will say no we're gonna live there but I've seen funnier things when applicants say that and then about two years later they end up selling the property we would be willing to have a restrictive covenant oh I could guarantee you you will be having one okay but you know to to this would alert any potential buyers that look this is a single family house yeah but here here's part of the problem even though there's a covenant the problem is comes an enforcement action with complaints we've seen that around town now that some of the covenants and it becomes an enforcement action with with the the employees from the property maintenance doing this I mean I just rather no as far as I'm concerned no basement Ingress outside that's a non-starter and there's going to be some other things are gonna have to change on it you remember the applicant is proposing on an very irregularly shaped a lot a lot of overcoverage here excessive stuff I get what they're trying to do but you know they got to work with the town and to me that's where they live planning wise I don't know I got a problem with this and if I may just also keep in mind I know the architect is still going to come on but I again correct me if I'm wrong but we also have a bedroom in the attic for each of these dwellings um let me see do we have that has that has rooming house written all over it and I believe one has two utility rooms and I was going it thank you Tom the one on proposed lob B there's a utility room on the first floor but then in the basement it also shows a proposed laundry SL utility room I mean what is in that utility room what exactly is in that in that bump out on the first floor well when the when the architect comes on then then he'll be able to cover that but that's that's an existing U that's part of the existing house but he'll be able to address that one and we're just bringing it and again I'm we're just bringing it up because if there's if there's very minimal in that room very well can be converted into a second kitchen and then when now we have the father's Suite we have a kitchen we have a bathroom and again it really is setting itself up to be more than a single family dwelling I I I I'd be honest with you counselor I think your your your client needs to go back and revamp these plans um because this board as long as I've been on the planning board or we've never ever approved something like this on this small of a lot well uh I think what I'll if I can indulge the board uh I'd like to talk to my client for brief recess of yeah I mean if you want to thing but I mean I don't want to waste the time whether she wants to listen I Mr Wy I I want I want to work with the applican here but the thing is is that this is this is pretty intense for that small piece of property I know it's a challenging property I'm well I know I know the property in that area very well I get it I understand it's not easy you could speak with your client so yeah let me speak my client and then I can advise supp board whether we would come back whether we want to go ahead uh with the rest of the application and uh just ask for a recess for about five minutes and I'll F I'm just alerting my client that I'll be calling her by phone so uh she should have that on so I can speak to her Pride okay all right thank you very much just make sure you you mute yourself um Mr Barlo um yes sir depend upon what he wants to do with his client I mean do do we take all the testimony from all the their their experts or you know I mean practically speaking I If he if he comes back and they're going to redo the plans then it would make sense not to hear the rest of the witnesses because that would change potentially the planning testimony well that's I don't I don't want wasting time agreed but if he if he comes back and he indicates he wants to persevere then I mean just so the board members know the uh town is under engineering designed for Normandy Drive now the reconstructed from bakeland Avenue all the way down to the dead end where the um CRI the cricket Fields parking lot is so we should but let's let's hold off on on any discussions until Mr Wy comes back e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e see Mr Wy back and Mr Barlo pctv is recording they're live so they're asking what's how much longer if we know I I would ask the one person who could tell us but he's not here so they need to put in some you know elevator music like sounds like Jeopardy yeah oh Mr Wy is back okay wonderful okay let me just find the mayor hold on one second us and just give us one second Mr Wy just give us one second to make sure everybody gets back on all right most importantly Miss Buckley indispensable but muted thank you I got it okay coming back now all right th this is what we would like to do we'd like to have the architect testify as to why uh this proposal is as big as a board is it's expressing and um because there are certain unique features as to this existing building uh and we can go through the process to discuss what we can knock down and I'm talk to my client I mean she's willing to consider you know reductions but she's been I guess through this process for almost two years now and um I think if you can he from the board hey you don't need this you don't need that that would help a redesign and help the process I would keep the planner off today because again I think I suspect the outcome after the architect would be substantially different that his testimony couldn't work uh but that's how I proposed to do it if the board's got no objection to going on that approach M Mr uh um Mr uh Madam chair I don't have a problem listening to architect but I got to tell you if this would be the application tonight I don't think it's going to be successful I I I've told my client that I think she understands that I mean I'm not I we're we're here to work with your client but it's just but the the difficulty and I'm not blaming anyone here it's my clients is uh is novel to this whole process no I I understand that she's been at it for two years she's you know redone the plans about four times at this point I realize there's still problems or issues that the board has uh but I thought that if I can go in this direction where she can hear directly from the board about why she designed some of these things well could be cut off uh and make it more conforming uh to the ordinance okay well then do you want to call your architect let's we're agreed that we're probably we're not going to finish this evening then Mr Wy we won't call for a vote you can bring your planner back let's hear from the architect in terms of what what he is able to do and if he can get to 20% or and he'll let us know okay uh who is your architect Mr Regal uh if you could uh okay sir if you could state your name spell your last name for the record and give us your professional address yes I am uh Reginald P I am um I live at 209 Concord Place North Brunswick New Jersey um I graduated from Howard University before you give me your qualifications let me swear you in you raise your hand you swear the testimony give before this board will be the whole truth yes now Mr Wy will go over your qualifications okay you could give me your educational background I I graduated at from Howard University with a bachelor's degree and I have a li standing license since 2000 and in good standing since 2009 and have you ever provided testimony to planning boards and zoning boards state of New Jersey I have uh Madam chairman I like him to be deemed as an expert in architecture I think you're muted Madam chair does he have any other degrees other than a bachelor's I do not can you tell us a little bit more about your testimony in the state of New Jersey I have test ified in um in Newark on a few of their boards um and that's primarily it you're testifying tonight as a planner no as an AR as an architect yeah we have a plan but no planning testimony will be given tonight I've also given testimony in Neptune I'm sorry your architectural license is in good standing in the state of New Jersey sir yes okay well you you can testify as an as an architect as a licensed architect yes so um I I may not be able to speak as eloquently as Les Walker but please forgive me and and allow me to just give the best I can um moving forward my client um owns this property I think you've heard a lot from Les and I I believe his testimony to be as accurate as possible and we worked a lot together um the current property um that my client owns um deems to be a little bit inadequate for her for her and her family um she has a rather large family um so she's really um the the the matriarch of the family is really kind of taking charge and trying to develop this strictly for her family so she brought me on to to um come up with these plans um she knew based on what I advise her that you know this is an odd lot um and the size of the the the the existing house and where it's located on the property is already non-conforming and I said that we're gonna have to go for some variances if you really want to pursue um um doing an addition on existing property um not and and also based on the setbacks and everything in the zoning even adding um a new house on the the new Pro on the on the divided lot which is lot a so just to discuss about Lot B um which is the existing house uh the existing house as Les described it um is the main entrance you come in you got to step down um it's really right off the Front Street um you step down uh that's where the living room and then you enter into the kitchen the kitchen is already down there as well and then there's utility um closet with the laundry um then there you step up a couple of steps in the back and the rear which is um primarily uh like a a den um and then it leads out into the to the backyard um if I may I will share my screen just to kind of uh give give more context to what I'm I'm I'm trying to describe so and and this is the main entry we come in down Mr Bar's aspect this would be uh A2 okay and if you could just describe the exhibit briefly Mr P for the record what I'm showing is uh just a Google map um view of just the existing house and the size of the house on the lot as it stands right now um what I was describing was in this front portion here is the um and and I if I may I will go I will show as exhibit the next exhibit um sure sir which is the existing plan which indicates the um existing living room which is by dissected by the um a stair leading up to the second floor um this is where the existing kitchen is this is where the utility closet is and the and their laundry room current um this is where they back den area is as well couple steps up and then on the second floor there there are in actuality this is one one bedroom so it's one two three bedrooms as you see they're relatively undersized um as as it stands that's the extent of the existing um so as we move on I can show you what we we we did for the for what we our addition as it stands in the gray box is the existing um layout um this is an existing utility room which has the uh water boiler um and the furnace that stuff that's in there electric um is existing here um there what we were going to do is remove that stair um create a stair up to just this level to match the new level um and then this is the Father's street she she needs she she has an elder father that she wants to take care of so she's just giving him a nice bedroom of his own with access to the kitchen that um kitchen that we're created right he has a bathroom his own bathroom and bed closet entry with a little bit of a foyer so it doesn't open up and to and and and um the the outdoor elements entering into his living living quarters um so they would share the kitchen um my client would live in this particular dwelling um so we would have a kitchen here living room and then um below is a small wreck room uh with a a laundry and I I indicated utility I understand um I Heard the that there you know there's two utility rooms but in some cases when you're increasing the size you like to have a place where you could have dual um um Heating and Cooling and then you want to provide so this may not necessarily be a utility but quite frankly it would just be a laundry in the W that's all we would do there um as Les testified there we are creating a two-car garage um we tried to keep the the footprint as as um true to what an actual garage would have to be um and the requirements were to H have it at least 20 by 24 that's why you see it carved into this into the living area space um there's really minimal amount of space here that we could add based on the size of the lot um so I'll say on the on the floor above we wanted we wanted to add um uh couple more bedrooms so this now we were able to add a nice gracious primary Suite with a nice primary bath um a walk-in closet and then we have an office bedroom and then we utilize the the half story for um another separate bedroom to make it the fourth bedroom all right so um and that is property that is property b um property a Mr P before you go on to that I guess the where we the concern is the lot coverage based on the size of the additions to the house on Lot B so and I and I think Mr W Wy pford uh how can we make the house smaller so that we have less lot coverage and and Tom if I may I I know um the architect just said that the garage you know it's a twocc car garage and just for the record the zoning coordinates requires that the garage be 12 feet by 20 feet with no obstructions so that is why one of the comments in the report was perhaps we could look at a onecar garage maybe that's where we could cut some of this coverage um yeah I think the only issue there of course I guess it's also a functional number of bedrooms but uh uh you know it looks like we would only be able to provide two cars uh off Street you know for one car garage plus the driveway and driveway is a little tight but um you know so is so that's the issue there I think and that's with the base on the four bedrooms right so was there any consideration to eliminating one of the bedrooms then I mean do you need the attic with the bedroom and the and the bathroom um uh and that was one of the things that we were going over with our client and the client really needs um the the space I mean that that's a big part of what is is needed for her to function and live there with the size family that she has well well if I can ask this and I'm not sure that it's the question for you but has the do your client give any consideration to perhaps moving into the new dwelling so that she has the four bedrooms a new dwelling that way this home doesn't need so much renovation it doesn't need the four bedrooms it doesn't need the two-car garage doesn't need the two separate entries I mean has any consideration been given to that oh there has been consideration but I believe the amount of um people that she's trying to accommodate requires her to have that that amount um and she would prefer to live in this this dwelling versus the new dwelling um but that is something that can be a consideration and we can have that conversation with herat Madam chair if I may too this is councilwoman Cahill um I think you're muted now councilwoman I'm muted so sorry sorry am I muted here no you're good okay um with regard to the fourth bedroom why not make that the office space without the bathroom and just make the office space that's on that second level that bedroom you're looking if you could go to the second floor you already have um a a a primary bath and a secondary bath why not make that office the bedroom and they share one bath I have three bedrooms you have one you have a powder room a full bath downstairs the powder room downstairs a full bath upstairs another full bath on that second floor why not make the office um on that third level without a bath room we can take that into consideration I don't know if that saves space but I know there was yeah so there no it's not gonna save the space I you know and actually to be honest with it's not as big a deal but when you're talking um I think you know the concern we have in this town of course is um as the mayor mentioned you know a lot of folks do get the deed restrictions um those covenants and then in at the end we're we as a Township are still paying to chase um when the house gets sold the the new owners um you know sometimes claiming ignorance sometimes putting locks on doors um and that was really more what I was speaking to so actually just ignore that but something to consider yeah I mean you know the thought process behind the design is really to make the best quality of space for the the the um folks that are going to live here possible um and make him as comfortable for her her family that that's gonna live there okay yeah I certainly it's just quality of space I mean I think the the office was a little bit small and shy of space that you know um she wanted to allocate for one of the one of her family members Mr P I I certainly understand her concerns and I appreciate you have a client you're trying to address her wishes and her concerns the the problem is there's a zoning table and a zoning ordinance and for to by creating this two lot subdivision you're expanding a house on a small lot so the the the issue that I get that we're looking for some clarification Direction suggestions is how do you make this smaller so that you have you know if you wanted to build this house on a 10,000 foot lot God bless you it'd be great but you have a 5900 5800 square foot lot which means the house should be smaller not bigger so I understand what you designed and why designed it but what we're trying to get some clarification is you could design something smaller correct and then it would yes I could and I I don't believe it would meet her needs okay well she's got if if if there's no the feeling I'm getting if there's no attempt to modify y the proposed structure and as a result the application is denied she's living in that house the way it is so and you know what and we quite understand that and the the purpose of us being here is to get approval and we will make whatever modifications that the Board needs us to make well but but we don't want to make them for you we're asking for some direction if you made it a onecar garage that certainly save money and I I recognize that would probably sacrifice a bedroom and sacrifice a bedroom if you made it a three-bedroom onecar garage I would it would seem putting aside what she what the applicant would want is it doable but I'm not an architect so I don't know if you it would appear to me you could design that she may not want that but you could design that correct I can I can yes again also and I'm sorry this is John Corin keep in mind you know the covered porch that comes into play with the building calculation as well so I don't even as we when Mr Walker was given his testimony I don't know whether that was even included in the building coverage calculations so just something again something to keep in mind yeah well look you know and obviously the cover porch is an optional feature of course of course it adds to uh you know curve appeal uh Aesthetics and Aesthetics good awesome Mr Wy but but it might it might kick us over the uh 20% that's Mr Wy I've also seen a lot of cover porches after a couple years being closed in illegally right but but you could have a restriction I'm not saying that this would happen in this case but it happens quite frequently Mr how how many square feet is the proposed house on Lot B as you designed it um according to I think less has that number oh all right um I I took a look at um Les Walker again um I took a look at the the possibility of Shaving down the garage to a onec car garage now with it bumped into the house to allow for the door um you could really only shave off maybe eight feet so you you'd save about 160 square feet um and that would get our number from down to around 26% and we're at 28.8 that would get us down to 26% but still not the 20% that um that is required and that's just going to a onear garage with a um with a driveway that provide for another parking space outside and unless it could you and that's still including you said that bump right so could you technically like tighten up that living dining room area and then we could we we were trying to work as best as we could with the existing structure without having to demo if you if you you look at this we're we're really trying to work within the confines of the existing structure trying to manage that aspect of it um as best we could to to minimize amount of construction cost um associated with with the work um and just by creating an addition but certainly this can all be relooked at and re you know thought out um based on what the client um is willing to to do if we eliminated the bump out what would we be uh reducing the footprint by what bump out John there's a utility uh room uh on what's the first floor reie is that that that existing utility room off of the father Suite is that something that could go away or that's something that that's where all the it could go to the basement I imagine it it could go away we just have to reroute the utilities that's all it it's certainly expens but it's and that's what 7 and A2 by 17 7 and A2 by 12 foot I'm sorry my eyes are going sorry Le so just just under 100 square feet there so that you know you're looking at another 1% so now you're down around 25% I know I I know um or at least I I seem to recall that so she she's um you know caring for her Elder father that's that's room reason for the first bedroom uh first floor bedroom um and then it's you know her and her husband and in two older Sons so you know the idea of of three bedrooms really doesn't really doesn't function when you have two older boys I I believe I have I have four children in a B level and my kids are miserable half the time because it worked when they were young and could share rooms but they're not happy as they get older sharing Mr Wy this is the mayor again can I can I ask what's what's the client's intention with the other new lot is going to live there are they selling yes yes that's what she has other relatives living there planning to live there planning to live there it it seems like her a more practical approach would be to design the house she needs yeah design the new house as she needs on the conforming lot exactly and leave the old small house without the all the additions that's exactly what I was saying before Tom maybe there has to be consideration to maybe moving I just moving into and then just making this other one giving it a few updates and make it maybe a little bit more marketable or maybe it' be more appropriate for the other family members yeah I mean I think the main thing would be to remove the the part where the house goes on to the other lot obviously that condition needs to be corrected but then she can design you know with the father's suite and everything look we're all we all have parents that are getting older we're caring for people I I don't think anybody doesn't appreciate that but it may be designed the new house with all those amenities that she wants and as dawn said make slight adjustments to the existing home it's just a thought I mean as the mayor indicated the the board would like to to work with the applicant but the applicant has to work with the board understood is there any other comments from board members what was that from the board members any other comments from board members because we like to you know uh see what all the concerns are and uh see Reverend Kenny Reverend Kenny I'd just like to make a comment if you went to that other house you could go up instead of going out and spreading out or being too close to the the road line you can you can build up and add at that other bedroom up not in that first structure where we are now but you can go up and in that second house and and just remodify the old the older house that we're having problem with and maybe that would solve the problem if you talk to her about doing that on the the new home construction head in the upper bedroom and the utility up another level regie isn't that a isn't the existing house two stories I mean they're they're under under like low ceilings but it's it's already two stories the the existing house is is two stories um unfortunately the the the ground floor again is like six foot 10 ciling height which is probably the minimum you can have usually is seven really it should be seven as the minimum but existing wise it is very very low okay that's only my suggestion we're over over the height and there's nothing else I could see all there any other chair if I may Madam chair um so did you know Dawn I just want to say this in terms of like the the the third floor Edition I mean that to me is less worrisome than you know the the the expanse sort of like you know the footprint meaning the garage you know how close it is to neighbors all that stuff okay right so I mean I think that um it's less about that and more about giving that space on your you know backyard setback and your sidey yard setbacks um you can still accomplish then the bedrooms um with trying to figure that that out although I guess I heard Mr Walker saying even the one car garage doesn't give back much um with that so da what is it and I know we're not Architects so is it really this additional utility space next to the father Suite or is isn't that already existing though that is existing already existing removed it give us roughly about 1% reduction the uh the uh slicing you know putting the one car garage gives us another 2% so we're at 25% making those two changes uh it's just that other changes are more difficult because uh they would effectively reduce the uh you know footprint of the existing book and Gabrielle that that's what I think Tom and I were trying to get at maybe this house just doesn't meet the needs of their client maybe the the better option is for them to design the new home on proposed lot a that can meet all of those needs needs and then just maybe kind of make some renovation to this existing dwelling without having to do the addition perhaps or doing a very small addition maybe not having that father Suite maybe doing a onecar garage maybe dropping the utilities to the basement reduce you know eliminating the cover porch maybe they can get so much closer to the 20% if they don't have to try to okay so the covered the covered porch is included in that calculation I still don't know to tell you the truth well not sure they're going to rework the numbers don't if there's a if there's a roof it counts right and if there's no roof if it's just a stoop it doesn't count correct so anything that's cover anything beyond 18 in left in that um in that coverage so we could eliminate the roof potentially to to save um what what is the you know we're we're kind of shooting in the dark here I mean I obviously 20% is the ultimate goal but what is a palatable number that would would get us an approval and and you know we're at 28.8% right now what is what is the the number that that gets us where we need to b i me I don't I don't know I don't know I don't even want to answer that question yeah I mean you know the fact is is that probably 99% of the towns in this town are are in compliance you know maybe even more a higher percentage than that so so then the answer is 20% I I just you know to give regie marching orders to go back and make modifications to the house you know we need to you need to at least know what we're our goal is the problem is as you know this is a very unique piece of property and very under normal circumstances it's close to the road and right there and I understand what the client's trying to do but you know it's it's exacerbating the non-conforming use of it based or non-conforming footprint so to speak I mean you're taking a lot that conforms to the the lot requirements and now you're creating these as we stay in our s two undersized Lots you're creating all these bulk variances I don't know I don't know how you come up with the number I um I would say get to as close to 20% as you possibly again all right I think that's uh you that's giving us some guidance my client will have to make some Mr Wy we're we're gonna we're going to try the work work work of your client and we as as Mr Bary said we all understand we all have relatives that are getting older and some some are living with her you know we we got that this is not an un unusual thing now I look I understand the min principal's perspective uh but it like I said my client uh doesn't have a lot of experience in development and this has all come as a surprise to her uh and she's made what she thinks are concessions on her part but uh her expectations were too high to begin with I guess is how I would express it um but we'll we'll uh uh we'll make some decisions uh you know within the next month or so and decide what we're going to do from there I realize that there may be a question whether we should carry it or um or if this is such a major change we have to give new notices of well Mr Mr Barlo can I make a suggestion I say we put them on for next month just so they don't have to re notice or anything and all right well I appreciate that they want to carry then they can ask for us to carry it I would agree 100% and Mr Wy since what the board members suggestions are proposing are is a lessening of the variance relief that might be sought right I certainly don't think you need to R notice anybody that's on the meeting I will make an announcement this matter is not going to be voted on this evening it's going to be carried to to the January meeting which is January 8th January 8th 8th so if you're here for that you wouldn't get any any new um notice Mr P if you could unshare your screen sure and Tom just one thing our meeting meetings in January are going to start at 7 pm not 7:30 correct 7 o'clock um so if you're here don't come at 7:30 come at 7 but Madam chair because uh it was a notice for this evening and there has been testimony if there's anybody from you should open it to the public just if they have any questions and they may have comments that that may members of the public um if you have any questions regarding this application would you indicate by show a show of hands or wave of hands no one Madam chair thank you close to the public so Mr Wy with your consent we'll carry this to the January 8th meeting at 7 o'clock all right going to be new plans please get them uh into the board's professionals as as quickly as you can and if you have if you need more time I I can imagine that the board would look favorably because as I said I think the board wants to work with you to see if if this can can happen all right thank you very much have a good holiday okay you well good night everyone there motion to there a motion we have paid the bills um is there a motion to adjourn I'll make that motion Madam chair thank you happy holidays everyone holiday happy birthday to the mayor's wife I hope oh happy birthday