##VIDEO ID:0IflFVdgIyQ## [Music] here is the regular council meeting of the mayor and Council Municipal Corporation in the county the meeting will begin at 7:30 on September 11 2022 on the municip 2 consist with the open public meeting after meeting will be open for public comments and shall be in withs and conditions of theode please stand for flag of the United States of America and to the for stands one nation God indivisible with liy and justice for all can I have a moment silence for employee of the DPW that passed away Sean mclinton thank you in conformance with the open public meeting Law Public Law 1975 chapter 231 adequate notice of this meeting setting forth the time date place and purpose of this regular meeting through notice posted on the bulton board and the municipal building mailed to all have requested and paid for same published in Suburban Trends roll call please here here here herec here coun here here okay under the presentations it's my privilege to bring in a new detective deep Fort Chief you want to come up and say [Music] some you want okay i' just like to say um it's an honor to be here tonight um and have um Charan for now to be Detective report um so if you don't know Pete or if you haven't um understand the break up of our department Pete is our SRO so he acted as a patrolman he's been in our schools doing a fantastic job um the SRO position falls under the detective department so he was answering to um Sergeant um and Captain Rodriguez and they approached me um over the course of his work about giving him his gold shield so even though he's already been in the position it is an honor to get your detective Shield um but the work that he's done um I was in instant agreement that he should get it it's an honor to have it um he's really stepped up and helped them do a lot of Investigations and the school itself has generated plenty of Investigations for him to keep it busy um but Pete is just an outstanding officer he has done such an amazing job since scking on that new role so B will be the first SRO that we had that actually receives his gold shield so it's it's an honor somebody bring up r [Music] congratulations so I know making that making the shield and becoming a detective is a big deal for our police department and we're always looking to advance our Police Department you know I'll tell you we have one of the finest police departments around we have a younger group so that's always room for improvement and moving forward and that's a nice thing to see when we're making improvements within within the rank so I thank you all guys thanks for everything thank good congratulations Pete all right you got 10 seconds to get out or you can stay whatever you want nice job job okay can I have a motion to open the meeting for public comments motion councilman venon councilman Cruz all in favor I against anyone from the public like to address anyone from the public like to [Applause] address I don't know if you guys heard me anybody from the public like to address please step up broke oh my goodness it's coming out of your tax dollars a big dinner tonight leave it open I just had a couple of questions on God uh 24 351 ending the salar recycl I had a question on 24 361 confirm some middle City St County tree B and then 24 366 the last one resolution requesting permission for dedication by driver the tree replacement what trees is being replace okay thank thank you anyone else from the public like to address um motion to close the public session so council president D councilwoman kilberg all in favor against all right Mike I'm going to throw them all to you thank you mayor uh 24351 is to amend the salaries for a part-time recycling AIDS uh due to a union agreement issue so uh that brings them up to minimum wage uh I'm sorry above above minimum wage rather uh so that's what that resolution is for uh 24 361 is to confirm our annual Grant submittal to the city green program for all of our uh daffodil bulbs that we plant Every Spring uh as a practice uh the administration likes to get a resolution for every grant that is submitted uh just for tracking purposes I know in the past it perhaps wasn't the case um but that's why that's on the agenda okay and then the last uh resolution is to establish what they call a trust fund uh uh to be able to take in fees for the new tree ordinance uh so it establishes the trust fund account in order to do so uh so moving forward those funds can be used to offset costs for tree planting and tree removals within the burrow so thank you mayor thank you thank you okay motion to approve the following Minutes special close session minutes August 14th 2024 regular meeting minutes August 14th 2024 Clos session meeting minutes August 14th 2024 so moved council president dine second councilwoman kilberg all in favor I I against uh authorizing payment of bills as listed below can I have motion motion councilman bennon second council president line all in favor I I against uh consent agenda does anybody need anything removed hi you do I do yes no you first um I just can you explain a little bit more about 24353 and 24 354 24 353 and 24 354 correct M correct 24 352 352 all right let's accept those three where the mayor coun May coun to remove resolutions for individual action from that now appr the foll on resolutions on the agenda are hereby approve 2443 24- 366 with the removal of 24 352 353 and 354 okay can I have a motion so moved Council pres line councilman Cruz all in favor I against okay L 24 351 um yeah 351 52 52 I'm sorry appointing Employee Solutions LC as difference C to provide H Services somebody had a question about it so that's the whole plan and then the provider that you gave us the comps on is rolled up into that yes so this is the resolution that is required by the state division of pensions and benefits in order to both establish the program and to appoint a consultant to administer the program uh so in this case uh at the request of the governing body I did go out and get an additional quote to administer the difference card program uh the cost was almost double the cost that I originally got from con Connor strong and Buckaloo uh who came in to do the presentation at the last council meeting so it's our recommendation to move forward with Connor strong and Buckaloo to administer the program at half the cost of what I got the quote for um and again this resolution is a formality in order to submit our application to the state division to get approved in order to implement the program that wasn't their original quote they came back after being questioned about their quote and reduced the price the following debt that is correct so the revised price is $651 per employee per month so after being questioned they took $25 a person immediately without further discussion off the top I mean that email came out really early the next morning so did we spend a lot of time having those conversations with any other providers to make sure that we negotiated the best deal because when this was originally presented they were the only people that presented to us at a high price point and then after some pressing we were able to take money off of it had that not happened had I not asked that we would have come in at $90 ahead I did have uh two meetings with uh Trinity brokerage Services uh the second meeting was after the original quote and they did inform me that that was their set rate to to administer the program um I did reach out to two other Risk Managers and they told me that they will not participate in this program uh so this is the price that I got and I'm confident in the price okay I just I hope the next time we're faced with something like this we take the time to make sure that we have those conversations before it comes to this point okay um that was it okay uh 353 354 Lo 11p services for calendar plan year 2025 and 354 is ratifying cbar agreement to refle negotiations agreement between bar local CL for H servic calendar plan year 2025 oh I'm sorry go ahead you got a question I'm I'm this is for the DPW Union and then the clerical is for the DPW Union do we have a clerical down in they're part of the same oh they're all part of the same oh so our clerical here are under this Union agreement yeah so there's two sidebar agreements uh councilwoman Ken uh one is with the DPW Union and one is with the office staff Union uh that's housed here in the burough Hall so both unions have agreed to participate in the program oh okay I wasn't sure okay thank you thank you okay Liz uh 24352 through 24354 yeah can I have a motion I'll make a motion second council president bline councilwoman Kent all in favor I against okay introduction ordinances first reading [Music] second late motion to approve ordinance 24-36 for introduction motion Council venon councilman Cruz all in favor and I have some discussion with sure just general overall just a brief explanation would be fine like why did we change the date thank you mayor uh so this ordinance for introduction is to change the due date for the dog and cat licensing uh the thought process amongst the clerk's office uh and those who implement the program is to stagger the due dates throughout January February March to uh offset the burden of the office staff uh that get inundated with licenses in January so it provides a little bit of time uh to take in the license and to administer the license to the resident and to stagger them throughout the winter um there's no uh impact to any fee um it's just the administrative uh you know uh amendment that we're requesting thank okay can I have a roll call please yes yes yes yes yes yes 2437 ordance amending Andes of employes of St motion to approve ordinance 24-37 for introduction so moved council president dine second councilman venon all in favor can we discuss sorry any discuss yes same thing same question just thank you this this ordinance sets the salary ranges for the new positions of CRS and assistant CRS coordinator that way moving forward if the position was vacant we had a range uh for each position that we know that we can pay those individuals within that range that way we're kind of capped at the range and we're not obligated to pay more should someone else maybe with I don't know higher qualifications come in or or someone else takes on the position they're both capped at the $1250 and the $600 for both respective positions okay so that formalizes adding that as a line item when the ranges come out in January yes okay roll call [Music] please who was that one I'm sorry I we can hear oh I'm sorry yes yes yes yes yes yes second [Music] readings and owner responsility PR injy um motion to open the meeting for public comments on ordinance 24-32 so councilwoman Paul dor second councilwoman kilberg all in favor I against anyone from the public like to address just this motion seeing no one motion to close the public session on ordinance 24-32 so moov council president toine councilman Cruz all in favor I against motion to approve ordinance 24-32 for final adoption motion councilman venon second councilwoman Paul Dory roll call please Chen yes yes yes yes yes yesin 243 and amend General motion to open the meeting for public comments on ordinance 24-33 motion councilman vnon second councilwoman Paul Dory all in favor I against anyone from the public like to address ordinance 24-33 seeing no one can I have a motion to close the public session so moved council president line councilwoman kilberg all in favor I against motion to approve ordinance 24-33 for final adoption council president dine Council woman poori roll call please yes yes yes yes yes yes [Music] 244 ordinance amending and supplementing the Sal R of the employees of the lake in county in the state of Jersey Municipal Court admin motion to open the meeting for public comments on ordinance 24-34 so moved council president the line Second councilwoman Kent all in favor against anyone from the public like to address 24-34 please step up 443 month out just an explanation okay thank you anyone else okay Mike just explain what the the salary range is for that thank you mayor this is for the Municipal Court Administrator uh with a minimum salary range of 50,000 and a maximum of 880,000 and just memorializes our new court administrator hire that was hired at the August council meeting okay thank you motion approve ordinance 24-34 for final adoption so moved council president line councilwoman kilberg roll call please yes yes yes yes yes [Music] yes procedures Lo payment motion to open the meeting for public comments on ordinance 24-35 motion councilman venon second councilwoman kilberg all in favor against anyone from the public like to address 2435 seeing no one motion to close the public session for ordinance 24-35 motion council president toine councilwoman uh alori um all in favor I against motion to approve ordinance 24-35 for final adoption so moved council president line councilman Cruz roll call please yes yes yes yes yes yes thank you all right we're going to jump ahead just because we have someone waiting uh here and we'll come back to our reports after so we're going to jump to uh the workshop start with uh the Redevelopment plan discussion uh our planner is here Kristen um want don't you come on up introduce yourself good evening everybody U my name is Kristen Russell I'm a planner with holers engineering and design and although I'm a new to most or all of you um I actually serve the compon Lakes zoning board planning board and Redevelopment agency so I've been in this room quite a bit even though it wasn't in front of you um I'm just going to go through with you this evening on some kind of education and conversation about what Redevelopment is and how it happens in pton lakes and how we might build forward um I have a quick presentation that's going to give you a bit of background because I'm not sure how familiar each of you are with the process and the powers of Redevelopment um so I'll give you that as kind of a foundation and then we'll talk about how it um takes place in pton lakes and um maybe some recommendations as to how it could be modified or questions from you guys recommendations from you guys for consideration and we can kind of have them back and forth um after I've given you the presentation um so Redevelopment is a power that is granted by the state to municipalities and it is kind of like zoning I'm sorry Krist want just step outside hey guys it's hard toar I'm sorry I don't I don't want to lose what you're saying we want to see if your voice Chris okay you this all is coming they saw you they R they were like this is going to be more um so you're probably all very familiar with the concept that zoning um tells us what we can put on any parcel in town how big it can be what the setbacks need to be and that sort of thing well Redevelopment does the same thing but kind of on a pumped up um version of that um the law that regulates Redevelopment is called the local Redevelopment and Housing law next slide sometimes Redevelopment is used for um revitalizing downtowns sometimes it's used to help um meet your affordable housing needs and anything in between um as I said local Redevelopment and Housing law is what governs Redevelopment um the first step in the process is an area in need study and that is a requirement that we have to look at the parcels that you have designated as being potentially um that your potentially interested in Redevelopment we look at them and we use a set of criteria established by the state to see which of any of those Parcels qualify um sometimes they all do sometimes some of them do and it really depends on a casebase basis what's going on on those Parcels they'll include things like um just use contamination um there's S I forget how many ABC sixish um criteria and you have to meet at least one of them or you can kind of include a parcel if it's necessary though doesn't qualify um I'm not going to get into that too deep right now but in order to take advantage of the benefits of Redevelopment you first have to qualify under these criteria um next slide so the Redevelopment process and I'm going to kind of summarize this whole list on the on the screen is that the governing body instructs the planning board to conduct this area in need study the planning board does the study and then refers back to the governing body there's a lot of this back and forth um if the governing body approves it that gives the green light um to the planning board should they choose to to go forward with the Redevelopment plan which would set forth what is essentially zoning um and they write the plan refer it to the governing body it again this back and forth process governing body can adopt it um if they do then there's also a Redevelopment entity in this case the Redevelopment agency is what serves that purpose in pton lakes and they enter into agreements and conversations with developers which is the kind of extra layer that we don't usually have when there's normal development for planning board so the Redevelopment agency makes agreements with this designated developer um in terms of what they're going to get um what they're going to give um and then it still does go through the planning board process of site site plan approval but this extra layer of Redevelopment agency is really a powerful tool next um here are some examples of Redevelopment plans they have in pton Lakes um Dr 1 and dr2 are kind of what you have downtown uh as your I don't remember if they were the originals but let's just let's just say they were the originals and then these other um Redevelopment plans are kind of scattered in that same area um can I just just to bring up so some of the council might not know uh the previous mayor when they set up this this gave every property the opportunity to say if they're in or out initi so some properties were nervous about it and decided to come out and then later on saw what was going on and then asked through the investigation you just brought up to be put back in so that's why there's some properties that are not in it's not just the whole downtown because at the time previous mayor gave them the opportunity to be intera um so the Redevelopment plan which is what is to use the analogy the zoning um governs the development what's in that Redevelopment area it states and objectives it specifies land uses um it can supersede zoning or act as an overlay um it identifies properties to be acquired and applicable that's not necessarily done a whole lot but it is you don't do that at all we don't do part of our deal that we made initially was no eminent domain okay so we can't use it so legally that's a thing and pumpt lakes that is not a thing um and Redevelopment plans generally give you More Design control over what is going to go on that property than traditional zoning next slide so this is kind of a a zoom in of your zoning map um Dr 1 and dr2 are purple is Shades um and then the two stars are also on Redevelopment areas I think I might have missed um something but you get the general idea that all there along wanu Avenue there's a lot of um of Redevelopment areas going on so that's what Redevelopment is um Redevelopment plan challenges I should have said specific to Pumped links um one of the ones that strikes me um is that your dr1 and dr2 Redevelopment areas are folded into the code um there's nothing necessarily wrong with that but it is not not very common often times these Redevelopment plans are separate packets like I have one with me you know it looks like its own document right it's not part of the um of the zoning code um again there's nothing wrong with having it in the zoning code but when when that was done um it didn't come along with these EXT design standards and supplemental goals and um you know a lot of the uh o that comes behind the Redevelopment plan is just not part of it because it was just dropped in the code more or less like a Zone um and so that's one challenge that I know the Redevelopment agency faces um they often I've heard them commenting in their meetings about um the absence of design controls and that's largely a product of the fact that that Redevelopment plan is not its own standal document um so also another challenge that you have is the dr1 and dr2 zones um it's a very big Zone there's nothing at all wrong with having a very big Redevelopment area however the challenge is that when those parcels gradually a developer gradually seeks development here a few Lots over here the next one might be a few Lots over there it's hard to write Redevelopment zoning that would be applicable to everything in any um meaningful way so we can say the front air set back is going to be you know 5 ft and the height is going to be 5 stories or whatever the numbers are um but when a creative developer comes along it doesn't necessarily fit into the generic um guidelines that have been established and therefore it's usually better to extract Parcels on a project by project basis and write Redevelopment specifically for them um there's miles in that that cannot be done with what you have now so when a developer comes along and they have five Parcels in Dr 1 and they say whatever the zoning you have for drra 1 doesn't suit us but we have this really cool idea let's say they have a really cool idea and everybody likes it um it's perfectly legitimate for a new Redevelopment plan to be written for those that subsection of parcels um but until that happens and in the meantime we have kind of more generic um Redevelopment in place for dr1 and dr2 which again there's nothing wrong with it it's it's just there needs to be a willingness to amend the zoning when the time is right um and we could talk about when that would happen why that would happen and so on um I would also say that having this generic Zoning for the broader areas well Redevelopment is sometimes written when a developer approaches a town and says oh I'm interested in this track of land um here's the idea I have in mind and then the town can react by saying oh we we do or we don't like what you have in mind we'll write Redevelopment to fit it or to sort of fit it you know to compromise whatever some of some towns also write the Redevelopment before a developer lands on the scene as a means to attract a a redeveloper so say I'm not I'm not sure that this is specific this is not specific to but say you you really want um to attract more dense development than you already have and so you're going to create a Redevelopment plan and you're going to without a developer in mind already say that it can be higher and more dense than the outline areas and then you might get more developers attention and interest on the parel not saying that's what's happening here but I'm just showing you that there are two ways Redevelopment can be kind of Proactive or reactive again neither of them are wrong it's just two different approaches can I ask a quick question yes when those decisions being made is it solely upon the Redevelopment those elected to that board that make those decisions before it comes to this day as here so I'm just curious like if they're going to make a change I mean I'm assuming I'm not going to speak for everyone I would like to know the reasons why and obviously see the the documentation that they're putting together because it's going to be them ultimately that they're going to Target or cater that to the developer so that would so it's remember how earlier I mentioned that there's a lot of this back and forth between the planning board and the um and you guys and then there's also the Redevelopment agency so as with zoning The Entity that writes the zoning is the planning board and the entity that adopts the zoning is you guys the the when we're talking about Redevelopment that the Redevelopment agency kind of gets themselves involved although they don't have any um specific legal role in in writing or adopting their children I just to be honest with you you know a lot of what's going on and a lot of the Curiosity and the learning that we want behind this is because the assumption is is that they do that they actually have more control over what happens and what is developed through you know whether it's through you know the the amendment or adjustments of documentation or the project plan so I that's a good point at least you're bringing that up explain to me then what what powers that we're hearing that they have within you know we're looking to do pilot projects any new development in town um because that's the impression that I'm getting so so what powers do they have you're ask yes so um well I will say that although the planning board um is the one who grants site plan approval they're generally going to defer to the redevelop the redevelopers will the Redevelopment agency sorry um will have looked through the plans and the site plans concept architecturals first and we generally kind of bless it and the planning board wants to see that blessing um but beyond that the Redevelopment agency has the power to come to um it's called a Redevelopment agreement with the Redevelopment entity um and it's going to be things like um contributions like maybe oh we're GNA let you we're going to zone for this building and we want um the adjacent lot to be a park or something like that like that's really um one of the powers is that they can they can have this sort of Leverage it also gives the powers of pilots and um so if that's needed as a negotiating tool the Redevelopment agency can incorporate a pilot into the redevelopers agreement can you but they they negotiate those things this body needs to approve those things yeah yeah yeah so I just want to make that clarification yeah so and that was perfect thank you because when you said they have the ability to negotiate well we'll zone for this if you do this that's not a decision right that's something that's presented after that that we ultimately decide here yes okay so a lot of what you talking about too I think and maybe you can mention this is the conceptual ideas I think that's what you're talking about that going back and forth kind of yes so uh when a when a developer appears before the Redevelopment agency to try to um demonstrate that they are worthy of being designated they're going to show Concepts they're going to get feedback from the Redevelopment agency um you know although the Redevelopment agency isn't granting site plan approval they really do have the power to decide well to recommend who's going to be the designated developer and if it does and if a developer does not seem to be they don't if they don't have the financial they can't prove the financial ability to see the project through or even if they just seem like really difficult um a Redevelopment agency could deny them that designation so if somebody wanted to build a 14-story building and the read development agency wasn't looking to do that they could in the conceptuals say I don't think the town is looking for something that height yeah and you should take to what we're saying to listen to and come back with a new plan yeah they could and um I I guess a developer could also simultaneously try to have the planning board write that um redevelop like that height limit into a Redevelopment plan but if if you don't have the Redevelopment agency the planning board and the council all on board like it's just not going to happen so in in the opposite example if the Redevelopment agency was presented with a 14 story um request from a developer and they were on board with it at that point the council was not they would still ultimately be able to step in and say correct no corre so to council M Cruz's question we had asked for this because and I don't want to speak I'll speak just for myself but what we're seeing is multiple developers right so we have this big project here that's right on the curb line another developer proposing 14 stories another one that needs an easement this one building looks like this this building is going to look like that our concern is that we're peac mailing this we've asked numerous times and even it's been asked in Redevelopment meetings what's the endgame what's the end Vision what's the end goal where do we stop what are we looking at no one can answer that um so we wanted to revisit the plan to see if we can put some parameters in place or perhaps include some things that must be required we have one building that went up that had no green space and now dogs are going to the bathroom all over the streets so where do we step in and say look this is what we've watched this is what is not working or what's coming down the pike that we don't want to see happen how do we change this so I I will I will answer your question I promise um but all of those things should at some level be guided by your Municipal master plan um or U re examination so some of them might not be mentioned in it but ultimately um the concept of how a talent and grow um should should be in your master plan and should at least serve as a path for those sorts of decisions why don't you explain what a master plan is some people might not oh sorry the master plan is um a vision document that is owned by the planning board they write it and it's in their perview it's in their office they're the keepers of it um and it talks about um the vision for the town the growth the land use circulation um you know historic environmental all you know parks in open space it talks about all of these things and it should be guiding Municipal decisions um about the topics that I just mentioned and done and done by our planner I mean you didn't mention we don't we the planning board's not doing it they're giving the information to the planner the planner is doing it and the planning board is adoped yeah and that includes updated information for capacity on utilities for population for services yes yeah and it's done it's updated every 10 years so has not been correct no it's the last time the the last um reexamination report was probably around 2018 or 2019 yeah that recently okay so with with the understanding that that is should be guiding us um a Redevelopment plan can certainly and should um include things such as requirements for Green Space um it and there's no um there's no reason that that sort of thing can't be added as well as other things that you think would be appropriate parameters now who writes that is the planning board so this body would send a directive to the planning board that you wish for them to amend the Redevelopment plan or Clans um actually you should tell them that you want them to study certain components of these Redevelopment PL the provision of open space um the appropriateness of height um because it it's it's it makes more sense for somebody to actually look at it and study it and say why we're picking five stories instead of 10 stories and not just picking a number out of the air um so ask them to study it to write some amendments if if deemed appropriate then the planning board will hear to make a recommendation back to this body and tell you what they've decided to do and um and then you'll act on it so you mentioned in the beginning that ours is unusual in the sense that it's just dropped into the zoning code and not really designed specifically for what the vision is is now the time to pull that out and say perhaps this should be more more inclusive of what we actually think the whole Vision should be instead of just um I me there's there's a number of ways that it can be done um we had talked about I I had had a conversation with the Redevelopment agency some months ago because they expressed interest in having a design guide um which would be a very comprehensive look at things like facades um and amenities perhaps um in the downtown um I don't know if that's still on their radar um if something excuse me if something like that was written um it could be reference in all of the Redevelopment plans like for design standards look at such and such design guide um in the absence of that the same type of information could be folded into each Redevelopment plan now it could also I suppose be plopped into the zoning code but in terms of yeah it could be pled into the zoning code in terms of some design requirements the they would still lack some of the other content um that we have in these typical Redevelopment plans which talks about goals and objectives the relationship to the master plan which I kind of just give you a quick summary of in the meantime um you know specific parking requirements um that may be unique to a site um you we've had we've had conversations at the Redevelopment agency about the um the site the facts of parking lot which is its own its own set of challenges um and the the plan also goes through some general Provisions about the relationship with the zoning ordinance the duration of the plan how how it's implemented and that sort of thing so all of that would still be lacking if we kept dr1 and dr2 in the zoning code and insert Ed some design standards however it might be a um what you're suggesting still might be a a quick fix to get us moving forward in a way that you're comfortable with um if if if fully extracting them and writing new documents is either too time consuming or too costly could you speak to a little bit about a builder's remedy lawsuit so people understand what that is with the affordable housing no no just in general sobody so in other words we can't tell someone we don't if he's not in the Redevelopment Zone the planning board can't just say you can't build that we don't want that here well that's the case with any sort of um if if if a project is compliant with the zoning you just in general cannot tell somebody that they cannot build it just because um you don't want it you don't like it outside of a Redevelopment anywhere anywhere um so if they fit within our parameters of zoning they are to build that project they are could be purple could be yellow could be no Window Control mechanism is to increase the parameters which is why it is um you you would desire to have these more robust design requirements and a Redevelopment plan because if you don't regul say you wish that the building was brick and stone and they come in with a vinyl siding building if you're plan does it tell them that that's not allowed you you can't just make it up and now you might find a developer who's willing to compromise on and and that's happens a lot and that's great but if if you're butt and heads at the end of the day you can't deny a project because you didn't like but Redevelopment can't say that right they could tell them we want brick no she's saying if it's not written into the they can I'm pretty certain they can tell them we we we're suggesting we want bricks they can include that in of their negotiations um but if um yeah I mean I now I understand what you're asking it can be discussed as part of the negotiations but if it is not discussed then and it is not in the plan and down the road that comes up then you've lost your chance but the opening comment was you can't tell them what they can't they can't build it as long as it's within zoning period I think he's referring to the use the use if it meets the bulk standards standards you can't deny a project because it's conforming under the zoning code we're we're never really questioning use though we're looking at size Visual and that's what we're lacking we have no parameters around facade design or right and that that's where the Redevelopment plan is is lacking right and and I'm I'm going to jump in now um I you know from what we have you know we've our Redevelopment plan is basically a zoning code over a zoning code at this point so really what the existing plan lacks is like you said it it's missing that that broader set of planning principles the goals and objectives of what we're trying to accomplish um I think that there's at least you know from what I hear a desire and necessity to and even from it's been communicating from the planning board and the Redevelopment agency of creating some kind of design guidelines associated with it so that we're not just looking at each part each project necessarily and to your point you're right because the capid dagly project has different B parameters than the Baskin property that is substantially deeper so the the setbacks applying those setbacks on one project doesn't make sense on the other I don't think that we need to get into a new Redevelopment plan to establish those kind of bulk standards across the way they can stay as is they can be rescinded whatever it is and then that can be left up to the planning board and the Redevelopment agency to kind of work at project by project but generally I think what this Redevelopment plan does need is sort of that those guiding principles of what we're trying to accomplish and then kind of back into the specific projects from there so I think we do need to to to reexamine the Redevelopment plan in the dr1 and dr2 Zone not to the point of we're we're applying new kind of of planning requ regulations Associated but really the broader Vision that we were lacking from the beginning you want if I understand you correctly you're are pretty satisfied with the standards that exist but they're they're just not um comprehensive enough it's not even a matter of satisfaction with the standards that exist I I think this the standards that exist don't reflect what the projects come in parcel by parcel or project by project anyway so there really isn't there doesn't seem to be like they end having to be massaged regardless C had to be massaged everything's got to be worked out in different respects they're okay because you expect that as developers come in we will treat each each site we will revisit each site that's correct and and you know we I think beyond the Redevelopment plan we can leave it to the Redevelopment agency and the planning board to work out those details on a project Pro basis but it needs we need something to address you know open space in the downtown um amenity space um again how much development are we looking for what are the heights whether are the vistas what what do the buildings look like those kind of things sounds like adding more robust specifics protects us yeah now I will say that the Redevelopment plans including dr1 and dr2 do address hyped so um I don't know what your position is on that but that is an existing standard it's five stories now I I don't know what each and every one of yeah it depends on the Zone but I I think if if anything that needs to be looked at with with respect to height it might be and I think the Basin concept kind of brought it to to light is a deeper property would have a significant different kind of visual impact depending on the location of the development of the Street then it would just saying well it's a six building and it applies regardless of the parcel and the depth of the parcel and things like that I think that what perhaps what would work um is since you're acknowledging that as each project comes along it would need to be Revisited the broader guidelines that could exist until that time or simultaneously would really just address rather than a um numerical height uh a vision in terms of um overall picture yeah a broad picture as to our the the the the character of downtown is midrise or or whatever and and the particular dimensions and size of any particular development site May um provide a sliding scale as to what that lot can accommodate I agree with that yeah yeah and having that articulated in advance of being approached for that spot helps us kind of yeah so so part of the discussion that and I appreciate everything you're mentioning today uh is the fact that I I think and you know this because you're at all these meetings we we go through many conceptuals before we get actually to a project and those conceptuals change by the requirements that the board and public are putting on the developer at that time where it's just talking back and forth nothing nothing in paper they're hearing responses and getting a feel for how they think the development agency is going to vote they're never going to you know I've had developers say I want to know how they're going to vote that's not how it works you got to present it you got to hear what the audience is saying you got to hear what the Redevelopment saying what the council is saying what planning board is saying and make a decision do I go forward with this or do I change it and that's where the whole conceptual back and forth things and did I miss something there got it are all the areas that are included in our Redevelopment plan still make sense to be included or are they actually in some cases stopping moving forward there was an issue I think with a building that a tenant that was looking to occupy a building and what he was looking to put in um he couldn't get it approved because it didn't fit the Redevelopment model and it's all the way out on Hamburg turnpik Corridor which isn't really residential facing to anything and he walked away and now the building's still vacant so I'm not sure well they could still build without a pilot they could still present right are there well it was um I don't I have to look up the specifics but are there areas included in this that maybe just don't make sense to have them in there anymore uh I I can't answer that on the top of my head do we I can't I can't think of a downside I mean I can't think of any particular property that would be like really doesn't make any sense it can keep this in the Redevelopment Zone um off the top of my head there's no down to me there's no down siding in having to maximizing the amount of properties at the very least in the Redevelopment Zone um the mistake happened back in 2009 where we allowed Marcels to opt in and opt out but that's the so that and going to your point that's important because those people who opted out now see what's going on and now they want to opt in and that sends another layer that we have to send through the whole investigation and go to the planning board are you looking to do that also no well no so initially when we gave them the opportunity to be in or out a lot of some property set out yeah because they were scared they were scared but now they want to be in but now that they're not in the Redevelopment zone They then have to apply to be put into the Redevelopment Zone and which is what we're running into now we have groups saying we want to be put in well you should have been put in initially but okay now we have to go through well what I'm saying is that if you have a batch of people who want to be put in it's better to do that in yes we talked about that yes so would an example of that be like the M AB section where they wanted to put large partment up that they needed to be included at that point well they don't I mean they don't again it's you know at that point it's it's non-contagious to the existing Redevelopment Zone they could request that you know again uh they could go to the council say that we want to have an area in need of Redevelopment study made which I think is what they started except they had just made improvements so it kind of defeats the purpose of saying this is underutilized property when you've just made improvements on it and then you know whatever reason if it did become an area need of Redevelopment then you develop a Redevelopment plan but again that's site specific to that location okay um you can do that we can do that anywhere if we want to I mean we've done that in very discreete properties in the past we can do it for that location in mon Avenue if we decided we could do it in the DPW Yard should the DPW Yard move so what's in there now doesn't need be change that in your opinion what we have included it's no I mean in terms of parcels no I don't think you know I I don't think again we don't need to reexamine the the parcels that are in there or not at this point I think it's just a matter of taking what the Redevelopment plan is lacking and sort of giving an opportunity to to find that broader vision of what we are trying to accomplish and every read so that there's a little bit more symmetry in what's happening right so the projects start to look a little bit more like there's an actual end game like it makes sense and the buildings have I'm not saying they have to be identical but there should at least be some type of a right and that and that and and to that point I mean I think at least a provide some guidance on here are the materials we want here are the colors we want here are the facades here's the you know the transparency of the window treatments things like that you're allowing dogs you have to have Gardens something so how do we what are our next steps then how do we make just interject real quick what you're describing is an awful lot like the design guide that the Redevelopment agency has already expressed interest in they're looking at that already so I think that um but I think you need to make it part of the re plan because that it can be either a separate document or it can be kind of like an addendum to a Redevelopment plan it doesn't like the con however it's adopted or inserted is same content um so it's interesting that it seems like you guys actually might want the same thing that the Redevelopment agency wants which is a clear set of parameters now whether you're the parameters you're envisioning are the same as the parameters they're envisioning I don't know but um but at least everybody seems to want some more robust rules and that came from the membership of the Redevelopment agency I know they had internal discussions about just some of the things that they're bringing up here and that's why they want to move forward with trying to get some some of this put into the Redevelopment um now although it was the Redevelopment I think this although it was the Redevelopment agency that expressed interest to me on this topic earlier in the year I'm not sure if they did or did not understand that it's actually the planning board who um would write that language and that you are the body that would adopt it and they would merely be using it as a kind of a reference so we can go back and forth and share some things that we would like to see included of course so let's say you guys decide that you wanted to do something like this you would have Shu the planning board to undertake the project the planning board will do so and then and then present you with with what they and I think Michael didn't they the planning board reach out at one point to ask for some money to start this process yes but it was after the budget was right it was a bigger number yeah and who works with them on that okay me or my my team so we can work with you with them to make sure that we don't have even be I mean this if if you guys decided to go forward this go forward with this um you know it could be we could we could design um like design the implementation or or the the construction of the document as you see fit so if you you wanted to have two people from this board two people from the planning board two people from Redevelopment agency to kind of work together with me or my team to make sure we're touching all of the issues um we could do that and I want to remind the board too that we do have a new Redevelopment Direct director who is much more involved in the process of just what we're talking about now he just was he just started this month so he's going to jump on this too a little bit and try to get some information for us and he's going to come to meetings just like she's doing here to present to us his ideas of what he thinks should be going on and then and then he'll have to go to the planning board meeting as well right okay so there any other questions for her thank you it was very very educational is this a start this is a first discussion I mean we're this is just talking about about it right now yeah yeah we're just talking there's no voting there's no you guys if you guys wanted to um you know speak to Michael about the budget when when there's funds available to pursue the project and then you would direct the planning board accordingly you would direct me accordingly and this takes time it's the conversation started in the beginning of the year and now we're almost you know to the fourth quarter of this year um before a lot more projects come through for approval or get presented I think it would be good to start working on some of this oh this is just a discussion now we can talk about that in session um okay thank you so much you're welcome thank you all right Mike you got the next two I think we just finish might as well just finish thank you mayor uh so the next item on the agenda is uh what we're calling sidewalk assessments um so uh we have a new burrow engineer this year and we have a lot of road projects coming up that we're working on and the topic of sidewalks and aprons came up amongst our amongst our designs of all of our road road resurfacing projects and our engineer has suggested that the governing body you know maybe take another look at Andor make a decision as to whether or not we should be replacing sidewalks as part of our road resurfacing projects um the burrow code obviously dictates that the sidewalks are the maintenance responsibility of the homeowner however uh you know when repaving a neighborhood it becomes unsightly when when you're putting down fresh asphalt and the sidewalks are all deteriorated Endor unsafe Endor cracking Etc um so there's different ways that you can replace the sidewalk with projects one of them being we could just pay for it which obviously becomes a large expense that I would not recommend um the other Avenue to do so is to assess the homeowner with a special assessment and they would be assessed with the Improvement in front of their property uh For That Sidewalk so I just wanted to kind of rehash the topic so what happened is Mike and I and the engineers met we got all this information and and we both said to us ourselves let's throw it to the council and see how they feel about doing this because this is going to come back you know this is telling residents they're going to have to pay more money or pay more in taxes to pay ourselves or they just pay outright and do it without our our saying so that's why let's have a little discussion on how you guys feel and I I would thank you I just want to add um if a resident has an unsafe apron or the curb is cracking there might be some special instances where we have to replace a section of sidewalk or we have to replace a curb that's AB buding the apron Etc um so that's why you saw some peace mealing on Lincoln AB last year um so I think we just wanted wanted to rehash and kind of make a final decision are we doing this or are we not doing this so we can move forward and the Ln a project was the one that's that started a lot of these conversation because we got calls no no no so what happened and it wasn't Michael who was a different administrator at the time made her made their own judgments yes we'll replace these sidewalks but didn't do it for everybody so you have residents that are there 30 years never got their sidewalk done you got a resident that just moved in last year and you got a brand new sidewalk i w over there so people got very angry with that and I got lots and lots of calls over that so we want to kind of get a idea of how we move forward with the whole thing I'm confused we're sending people out to assess properties to tell people they have to fix their sidewalks no so this and I'll let Dave answer in a minute but this is a special assessment whereas the resident would get a special tax bill just for the Improvement in front of their property in this case the replacement of the sidewalk so the engineer would have to do a calculation and figure out how much each property uh would cost to replace the sidewalk and then they would be special build for that Improvement in addition to their property taxes I mean are the sidewalks that and I'll let they so each resident is no longer doing their own work someone correct in this case if the if the engineer is is looking at the sidewalk and recommending that the side based on the sidewalk condition the burrow replace that sidewalk that's while you can and um that so he would include that in the project and you would based upon the engineer's calculation you would assess each property in order to the extent that property has been approved with that new sidewalk now let's just back up a minute you you are every municipality can shift maintenance responsibilities to the property owner for the public sidewalk in front of their their house however you are not able to shift liability for the sidewalks condition so if someone if the sidewalk is in bad shape and someone chips and hurts themselves they can sue the burrow and the Burrow's insurance will respond to it and if they can meet these five criteria in the Tor claims act you know that the burrow had notice actual or constructive notice of the condition it's a dangerous condition I was H as a result of the dangerous condition um they will succeed so you can the courts have said you can shift maintenance responsibility to Property Owners but you can't shift liability for the public sidewalk except in one instance which is where some action of the property owner themselves has created that condition in other words yeah they yeah or or or the more typical one is the property owner plants a tree out there and that raises it's not a town tree it's the property owners tree and it raises a slab so just something worth thinking about because if I I don't know what the condition of the sidewalk is but you as the municipality need to be concerned about its condition because ultimately you're responsible you're you're legally responsible on the event someone's injured as a result of so this is a big deal I'm just going to tell you this is a big deal because a lot of the sidewalks in pton are very old and in bad shape a lot of them are pulling up a lot of them are breaking apart a lot of them are not even there anymore so if we decide to assess I'm guessing there'll be some angry residents they don't want to pay it okay we can't afford to do all the sidewalks ourselves it would just be too much money so we have to have kind of talk about it a little bit and how would this assessment work because what if someone can't afford it I mean you know you do have older residents who are on fixed incomes and that's you know we're talking a lot of money depending on the size of their property absolutely you see this a lot with sewers projects so if the municipality was putting in a sewer line you know unfortunately those residents would be assessed for the Improvement cost um and it's the same case here um but again I thought the engineer and I just wanted to rehash the topic and kind of get a feeling as to if it's even something that we would consider so what does everybody think about that not right now I need a lot more information that's not going to so there's a couple things is as much as it would have been you know Lincoln fully paved with brand new sidewalks lining the entire length would have been nice and same thing with Daws and maple there's there's there's what a road actually is is is serves as and there's what a sidewalk actually serves as and getting away from well the road looks really good and the sidewalk really looks really good brand new and everything like that that's the Aesthetics but road is supposed to function a certain way a sidewalk supposed to function a certain way so unless the sidewalks are in such a boring condition that they actually do represent a hazard I don't think we should be car blanch replacing the entire length of a sidewalk and then assessing the property well that's my first question what determines whether or not is it just like a little crack so now we have to fix it or is it well I mean it sounds like this would be like full on all sidewalks get replaced I don't think that's a good idea because I I just think that that's it puts it puts a burden on the homeowner for a sidewalk that otherwise is fully functional just because we're happen to be going through an P now if if it's a situation where if the situation where where you know I could go to the code maintenance officer and say this sidewalk is not the code it's a it's a tripping Hazard there's things like that then that becomes the opportunity I think at that point to say okay in the field we do need to make this sidewalk replacement we are going to place a special assessment on the homeowner because they're going to have to do it anyways and we're probably saving them money by doing it um by having a contractor without having a mobilization fee and and everything else house rather than putting it on the homeowner finding them giving the notice of violation and then forcing them to go find so where we see it a lot just everybody knows when someone goes to sell their home they got to get a CO from the building department the building department goes there and says your sidewalks are a mess you need to repair your sidewalks they didn't even think about sidewalks until somebody got there and said your sidewalks AR this so I I I do agree with what Eric saying I mean that's a good compromise in the fact that if they're in bad shape they have to be fixed it's a danger we're going to get sued if they're not fixed place now is if there's a sidewalk that's you know like 6 in gap and it's like a giant step we notice the property owner the and then then there there supposed then then they they're supposed to fix it while otherwise they're subject to fines okay so there is enforcement so can't we just send someone from our building department out to do scan of the town and start noticing people that are we could but what Eric is saying is we have our team there already it's going to save us and their money if they decide they want to do it now because that's part of the group being there to send it out separately it's going to cost more money does this cost us more money by doing it which way just doing it this way using our own people the way we do it now or by having someone come out I I mean it we I in my opinion with our building department we have limited hours to go and scan the town for sidewalk so we we're we're we're we're basically reactive we're reactive to complaints we're reactive to people saying I tripped on the sidewalk things like that at the very least I mean we still should be doing that in some respects but as a project by project basis when we're repaving the roadway I think we do have the opportunity to address any problematic areas at that project location but I don't think we should do the whole CC okay so at the project location not someone out going out to the whole town no no no no we're not we're not we're not saying okay now we're going to SP to do everybody else feel what's that I'm with what council yeah I guess I mean I agree with Council kilber the only conc Council woman kilberg I thing is the pricing obviously for some of those that aren fixed income but either way they're going to have to if if it's a bad enough sidewalk fixed income or not they got to fix it I mean I'll be honest with you they probably won't and if it's they they are but the fine is generally probably cheaper and I can tell you right now if it's been there 10 years 15 years already they haven't done anything and guarantee you they're not going to do it anymore here's the problem and I agree with you but the problem is they haven't been fine so those fins escalate as time goes on they could be up to $1,000 if they don't and I agree but I think you know it should be taken Case by case has to be Case by case basis we have to look at it we have to look at the homeowners position where they are they're 80 years old 85 whatever and they're on a fixed income and clearly not I don't agree with that because they're on a fixed income now and then they sell their house and then a new property owner comes in 25 a young couple and now they've got a sidewalk they should have been place because we felt bad about all we're talking about now is hypothetical these are all HP I know that's why that's why you have to consider all hypotheticals all I'm saying is is that in those considerations we need to take that I I think we need to take property do at the point when they're selling it they're going to be made well aware at the point of them selling it they are their house is probably paid off by then so yeah they're probably going to sell their house they're probably not going to are we paving are we we're repaving the whole length of Jo's Highway like I mean so can we just go I mean can I just go out I want to see it I want to see what we're talking about like I want to go look at the sidewalk example sidewalk this okay and somebody's walking with their small child they trip over that sidewalk they get hurt and break their arm they sue but I want to see how many of them are like that like I want to go see I want to go see how many sidewalks are like that a we're only talking about only talking about doing road project so we're not talking about no no I know that so we're talking about the whole length of do Highway no no no an example say they're going to PVE uh my my Street West lenx okay and my sidewalk is fine it stays the next sidewalk is torn up they're going to be assessed now with arog suggesting because their sidewalk is a mess and they got the team there ready to fix them yes okay but we the burrow need to put the money out first we have to put the money up front and and hope that they actually pay us back in a timely fashion Street that's another problem bad sidewalk good sidewalk good sidewalk bad bad good and now fixed not fixed fixed not in the end but there's but again it's you're looking at fixed as new if there's nothing wrong with a sidewalk it doesn't need to be fixed so it doesn't need to be new I guess it's going to come down to how do we what's classifi fight look like brand new new no no but I'm say going to ER Point does that look worse no who cares what it looks like that's my point who cares what it looks like the function of a sidewalk is to be able to walk on a side so our attorney is telling me our attorney is telling me it's an inch and a half he what I'm saying is from Council M the line is that yes you know what constitutes are replacing it has to be in really bad shape we're not talking about Minor CL that we're going to go out there out of has to be out of so what I see is most of them that I see in town are not out of code they're they're and those are not the ones we've been talking about replacing this is only going to be part of a road project a road resurfacing project and they're going to be there evaluating obviously the sidewalks all I'm saying is is that if it does turn out that during that real project wherever that is and you're going to find these owners and they're going to look at this and they're going to have no idea what this is they be well do you have op any idea what this is you do you can hire your what if you assess me and my cousin does sidewalks and he's not going to charge me why do I have to pay all this extra money if I have someone in my I give him the option if we're assessing we have to put up the money and it would be part of the overall project no but what she's saying is can you give them the opt they do it or we do it one or the other it becomes a timeline issue now you're negotiating with people it could delay a project everybody knows something if I know someone my family is going to do this for free you're making me pay for something my biggest issue is putting the money my largest issue is putting the money out up front because that's you're talking to a lot of people so understand how a road job works we put a lot of money no I understand that but we're now putting it for sidewalks as well it's a small fraction of what a road job how much is a road jobn uh Lincoln AB 900,000 so you sidewalks would be you know 50,000 60,000 I mean I understand I mean like I said I think it's just so we're just trying to get a feeling of what what people all right we'll start with e e on the back what do you think what's the what's the cost of a sidewalk for 5 I couldn't tell you I don't know I would tell you that the average 75 foot width lot is about $3,000 then that's from our burrow engineer an opportunity that we split the cost or offer a caseby casee basis if it if it comes you can't you can't start saying we'll do yours or not yours I think what's going to end up happening is is that once we do encounter the very first residents that are going to receive a bill because it's out of code it's gonna you know it's happening now that happens right now well I mean yeah but now it's going to be part of the road Services project like it's not whether or not they just have to randomly oh it is a benefit but I'm saying if they Haven going to the point if they haven't paid for it already and again I don't know the dollar or not they're going to have to pay for it now where they weren't planning on it and they're going to receive you know you know a bill from the burrow this is what happens we have a handful of people here maybe a portion are going to watch this video 98% of the town are not going to have any in this and this is going to be a very big surprise have said residents I'm not saying no I I do understand why we need to do that I'm not disagreeing with that I'm just saying I think we need to figure out a way either to communicate this or um figure out a way on a caseby Case basis that nobody wants to hear right but it's Unique situ everybody's in unique your point I get lots of calls just by what you're saying I'm selling my house nothing wrong inspector came out he won't give me a CO because my sidewalk is no good they tell me I have to replace the sidewalk and they're yelling at me and I said look I don't R the building department you got to follow what they say um so you know I'm in the back of their mind they know they have a bad cycle they just IGN I don't really care absolutely absolutely but you guys decide I that's why I didn't [Music] make yeah we're not doing everybody I don't have a sidewalk and I don't want a sidewalk lucky I am lucky but but we looking at the tow houses they need sidewalks you they need sidewalks the tow well we pay for our own sidewalks yeah okay so you pay for for your own sidewalk but have enough it's to to me the hall owner is responsible for their sidewalk whether if they're putting a road in it's got nothing like like it's got nothing to do with your sidewalk maybe you know the only question I would have is and people would question the curving curving is ours the curving is ours okay so that's I know that comes up a lot because a lot of curvs prac my own my own curving in front of my house is lifted 5 C Ines from the tree that's St right okay when they do my road whenever that's going to be that'll be that'll be that's ours no I don't think that we should get into the business of sidewalk I I don't want to see that so what does that mean you don't want them to do it when they do a road job and just do it on their own just do it on their own whatever it is now no just keep it I'm a yes as on an Asda basis I'm not now I'm not okay with no all right you got your answer SS like a no so just for clarification move moving forward we will replace absolutely no sidewalks as part of any road job correct that what we're saying right I didn't mean to Spur theb but our engineer was asking me because we're under a time frame issue with do Highway and he needs to present his proposal to me and he was asking am I including sidewalks am I including on an as needed basis and really it's not my authority to make that let me ask you this because you've been in a couple towns what are a couple other towns what do you know I know for a fact that bloom Dale and Butler do replace all the sidewalks and assess all the property owners um that I haven't looked at any other towns but we could certainly bring it up again in the future but for this project and in the near future we will not tocl sidewalks all right just keep in mind that doesn't mean if an inspector goes out and sees your sidewalk is bed of course he's going to ride a ticket and you're going to fix it with the fun it's still going to happen somebody is is trying to budget for something and they know they're selling a house in 3 years and they have to replace their sidewalks and they're trying you know they're budgeting for it they're ready to take this on and now we will do this project and now we stop with with this and all of a sudden they weren't ready for it they I mean I just I don't know I don't want to all right let's move on Park permits is this easier I hope thank you maam uh the clerk's office is in receipt of a Park permit from the uh pton Lakes High School Board of Education uh the board and the volunteer group that submitted the application uh requested two things of this governing body to potentially consider uh given last year this governing body adopted the new Park permit requirements uh so the first thing that was requested from the Board of Ed is that all Board of Ed sponsored events uh the Park permit fee would be waved the burrow attorney has weighed in and classified the Board of Ed uh under the municipal family so that they would they would be eligible for the waiver however this may lead to issues with other nonprofit groups requesting the same consideration so we just have to take that into account here and then the other change that we would present in an ordinance is to Grant a Certificate of Insurance that's valid for one year for the group so for instance the Board of Education takes out 10 permits per year as written they have to get 10 certificate of insurances for each event that they take out the permit for the amendment for consideration would be blanket certificate valid for the whole year so we just wanted to present those two options to talking about there're also groups that want to use our properties that are not so where do they form to this whole premise pay their Fe I would think right off the top they're paying out of town right out of town unless it was education even if voiceout Tru from Wayne okay you know we're saying they're out they pay and sorry to add really quick the ordinance States right now that burrow sponsored events are exempt from the FEI sure which they should be all right so now we're talking about in town groups that want to use some all they in town so I would think they're considered resent I don't think we should put an insurance waiver on certain nonprofit groups that support the town at all so what what we're talking about we're talking about like Women's Club rotary fee waiver I don't think you you're just talking about a fee waiver not the insurance waiver okay the first item was the fee wav so I think the Girl Scouts here's the problem with that and I agree and I'm agreeing with what we want to do but there's got to be a line dra of what group considers a be waiver as a boat club that has boats on the weight I thought you said a 501c3 is that how we're selling 501c that's what I'm bringing forth to you well I thought it would be anyone that's in so like if you said the Elks the Elks are it's Pompton leak so I would think that they wouldn't have to pay for it V Club is not a nonprofit talking about I don't even know who has a boat club I didn't even know there was a boat club yeah so 501c is fine 501c is fine if we're going to use that as the judge um but anything that doesn't have a 501c but is a nonprofit group in town I mean a volunteer group in town that theoretically have to pay yeah like who they are nonprofit but they stay on their own property I don't that so that means the property they're not yeah but they live in town those those people live in town I thought you were a resident of the Town according to what we're saying they'd have to be but I thought said if you're a resident of town you I don't believe so they are so that's what I'm trying to get at there are groups that are not going to fall under that category yes Girl Scout Boy Scouts being yes but those are also I mean Girl Scouts and boy scouts but we can't I mean I know but it puts us in a pickle it does you know the exception of one can't make an you know I believe the suggestion from the burrow attorney is to not Grant any further waivers and to include the border of V under the municipal family yeah that's what about like fire first aid sponsor we on an independent basis when consider coming this counil can wave with you yeah so we can do that right yes however now you're opening up a can of worms the next group's going to say I why do they get it bright line rule okay I'm just okay I'm just going to throw out there you know like I'll use I'm just picking up Girl Scouts do a lot of events they they do um we going to charge Scout in Scout in that's what we're saying by the way that's what I'm saying Scouts are in what what does that mean mean it's waved no you can't CU you can't pick well then why aren't we waving it for p up right that's exactly right has own own they can use other they might need it for other reason what do we do Scouts now for like when they use first deal for the full festival and they take the we they've been paying every year they they pay how much how much is it how much is it we're talking $25 an hour an hour hour depend on how many people yes it there's a tiered structure in the code what's the maximum for a 4our event 125 for an outof Town business 12 what's what's the maximum for 4our event for in town for in town $45 okay what did you say only for mdle school only for yeah I'm going to go with these and that's our suggestion anybody comments on it right line rules just it is you can't pick and choose one of the other pick yeah yeah I'm going with the attorne all got your thank you mayor so just to confirm we'll have an ordinance amending uh the Park permit ordinance to include a Certificate of Insurance that's valid for a year so that would be the one change yeah okay thank you okay okay so now let's go back to the agenda under my report uh we'll start with Pon day another huge success very nice uh turnout uh I got to thank Karen Murphy and her family Mike shakat Steve big bernardet Dan Black Lisa right here from was on the recck as liaison you know these are people that went to the meetings every week and and really put it together it was a nice event we sold out every spot we had the most food vendors we've ever had at 35 and all the food vendors were pretty happy at the end of the day of what what came came out of it the fireworks were outstanding um I had a lot of compliments a lot of people coming up to me saying I can't believe how long the fireworks lasted and they did a great job you know I you know happened to see the mayor of Oakland there and he was there talking he said you guys really do a nice festival and remember it's all done by volunteers nobody's paid to put the Pompton day together so that's a big deal that's a big deal and uh you know we you all got a copy of what was made and lost so we made some money for recreation which is a good thing um and at the end of the day it's a nice nice event so thank you to everybody involved thank you to all the volunteers I'm not going to name them our fire department was there all day police omem everybody was there helping out we had no issues we had no disputes we had no fights the police weren't involved in anything so it was all and all except for a little rain in the very beginning was an all and all great day um I attended the VFW golf outing yesterday always a fun event I attended a shade tree meeting that we discussed the new ordinances that were putting in place about uh on property trees and I think there was some good conversation there I think we worked out our situations and we were with the uh arborist who who has a good grip on what he has to do he's done this in other towns we'll see how this goes again going back like Bobby said this is a learning curve people are not going to be happy with this with this ORD let me just try that so it's we're going to have to get it out there get it education and get it out there I had my first application oh did we had our first application look at that um we had a meeting with the radio station I think more will follow with that in the next month um I did a couple weddings uh we had a couple me meetings about some Personnel changes in the police department and the uh um DPW uh unfortunately like I mentioned in the beginning we lost a young DPW employee I think he was only 24 or 25 he had an accident um it's sad to see such a young man in his prime of life you know pulled like that um and that is my report council president L thank you mayor um I just want to reiterate uh your comments on pton day um thank you to all the volunteers that that show up our vendor our Public Works that are there police that are there um pton day is sort of The Unofficial end to the summer and the beginning of the school year it's always funny to walk up and down the street and you run into to your neighbors it's like you haven't seen in in months because everybody's been running around to the summer so it's it's a really great day I I love I love pton day and every year just feels it just feels like a a great day um thank you to Liz I know especially um and to our fire department for the 911 ceremony um again it's important that we do this every single year um it was funny CU I was I Serena came with me and I was you know we were talking about she's like oh I you know I don't know if I want to go I was like you should go it's a day of remembrance except for a younger Generations it's not a day of remembrance it's it's well and I made the point actually you know for her it's a history lesson but it is a a day of Remembrance in the collective identity of being an American and I made that point of saying you might not have been alive but part of who you are as an American is recognizing the importance of this day so as long as we continue to recognize this day and the importance of the day and how it affects us going forward I think that is remembering what it is to be an American um and I and I again I think the burrow and everybody that puts it together this important ceremony no matter if it seems like one year there's less people showing up than there has but the importance of it still maintains um uh last month I attended the planning board um there was one application from Viola water which is on Legion Street they were doing upgrades to their pump system on the exterior that was um unanimously approved by the planning board uh the regularly scheduled meeting for the planning board on September 17th has been cancelled so they won't be meeting until October um the MUA had their meeting last month I just want to let people know that the fall hydrant flushing uh program will begin on Monday September 23rd hydrant flushing will be performed during the hours of 12:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m. to cause the least inconvenience to our customers it should be noted that customers may experience a temporary discolor discoloration in their water or drop in water pressure during the program again as I've mentioned before you turn on your water following the hydrant flushing that comes out disc discovered just run the cold water for a little bit it should clear up um and then at the MUA meeting uh the superintendent just went through um a number of projects that they are doing uh they're looking at areation uh upgrading their areation system they're performing a treatment plant evaluation and then they have to develop a water Asset Management Plan update all of those have started and there are a number of projects that they have through the new New Jersey infrastructure Bank uh looking at projects going full capital projects uh in the future including a water main upgrade on Ringwood Avenue a water main upgrade on Pompton Avenue and hamlock Avenue and then replacing the north hump station and that concludes my report thank you and again I forgot to thank Liz and's office staff for uh the 91 911 ceremonies they put it together every year they do a great job they contact everybody so thank you for reminding me um thank you Liz for everything you did with that uh councilwoman Paul Dory thank you um congratulations to detective Forte thank you Liz I saw you running around it's it's amazing every year really is thank you I like home this year too um Pompton day was a huge success so thank you to everyone that worked so hard to put that together uh right before Pompton day the Elks held a carnival this year which was really well received by the town very busy and I do want to take a minute to give a special thank you councilman Cruz for volunteering an hour of his time uh councilman Cruz sat in the dunk tank Carnival so I appreciate that thank you well I was wrinkled when I left were you oh yes did you get d a lot oh yes okay good I appreciate it thank you um and then also the eles asked if I would just let everyone know that they are having uh and I'm going to share this with the Coalition also as the parent LS on I have some things to give you for them too they are starting to get really involved with their drug programs they're they're say no to drug programs they have some essays coming out through the schools but they do have a walk coming up that they've invited us to so maybe we can get the coition on board with this um November 3rd at 10:00 at the eles they do a el walk out on drugs is that your own copy I I'll give it to you I can get a bunch more um and then we I'll share it online too I have more uh information in the parfum there some other things coming up um I attended the bid meeting I signed the bills and DPW has a reminder that on the 10th and the south side and the 11th on the north side of October leaf and brush pickup will begin for the fall um I do and I I'm going to wait for the burough administrator's report but I have some questions about these notice violations that came through and one request of Liz that I would like to [Music] make that um can we change the format of the agenda packets is it possible for you to a few of us were talking instead of scrolling through you know hundreds of papers can we uh break it out into separate PDFs if bills are one PDF and then the agenda the resolutions and the supporting documents are one the B administrators report is already a separate one uh and then the minutes also so that we can just kind of open the attachment that we need instead of scrolling does that make it easier for you yes it does all right so I don't want to make it harder for you if it's easier it's certainly easier a few of us tell me what get is that what we said five different attachments then so I'm looking for one I don't have to just click on minutes instead of what page was that 140 thank you I I'll get here okay and I'll try and we can adjust it as how as long as it's easier for you okay then that is my report okay thank you uh councilman Benny I have no report ma'am thank you you have no report councilman Cruz thank you manam um I attended the uh Board of adjustments meeting on August 27th um very strong report for them they just had one resolution boa 2404 for Tilcon New York um the purpose for this was to uh let's see a building was to proposed building was to enable the maintenance to Ser electrical equipment inside a building and protect the from the elements um this is going to be, 1600t electrical Barn accessory structure along the interstate 27 South qu and that was approved by the board um and that's the only item that I have for the uh Board of dra adjustments could you could you just pass on to the board thank you thank them for all the help they gave us here oh absolutely you know they they really were helpful bathrooms and water and janitors and uh the next is for the board of P Port you had a part then I could not attend um but they did send a few items to uh discuss here during the meeting um they had 2024 food licenses were approved by K spiz and sa Toria and a new business they had resolution 2422 accepting the resignation of Jen deie from the B P Lakes protocol forec December 31st 2024 and that also applies to Black Smith also subit letter designation so there will be two positions they open uh with the V of and let's see oh uh and from the correspondence uh several Anonymous complaints were brought in roosters and [Music] chickens so that they in favor of roosters and chickens no no not at all uh I look like the roosters uh were removed I'm not going to mention obious C the address and the anonymous complaint stated that the chickens were attracting rats so was that was the that was to the health department that was to the health that's for the health department so the uh The Roosters were removed but but I think it's still on vable to check this at this point and finally the last one is going to be for the Board of Education that I attended yesterday uh the Board of Education this is really cool so they accepted a grant for the UniFi Champions Grant in the amount of $4,000 for the Special Olympics and that's going to be utilized at the pumpin Lakes High School uh back to school night um it's going to happen September 12th for Lakeside which is a Thursday September 19th for Lincoln and September 18th for Lennox um the school also received a computer science grant for a new program called Esports now you would think I was involved in technology I would know what this is right so this is all about gaming against enhancing the computer science program um by applying theory and practice in the area of computer programming towards theme design so this is awesome of course just a a lot technology the ground was also used to uh fund a trip to Bank of America New York City for the girls code again this is also looking towards computer science as well and let's see so the last item that I have just cuz I'm pretty sure everybody's been curious is all the work that's being done at late side in the front obviously um the front entrance so that's in preparation for the Vester bubles that are going to be uh going out to bit this month and it's going you're going to see that across all the schools uh the camera systems are up and operational the new ones at Lakeside I think if you guys have not noticed they're on the very corner and they're very big so those are the new ones and the communication systems from my understanding are also up and running the rest of the schools are still ping so to complete those projects and thank you uh councilwoman Ken okay thank you mayor um my deepest sympathies to the DPW uh Sean mcclinton's family that was a very tragic loss he was a very nice young man and um very sad to hear that I was away but U my did be sympathy on that um I was away for a couple weeks on vacation but I did get a phone call from our police our mayor I mean Michael our admin Ator Michael gelli and from the police department regarding the a a um rescue on pton lakes of our one of our contractors that actually treats the lake uh evidently he's been out there many many times but this time the lake was very low and it got caught his boat got caught on some kind of a structure that there was some type of a bridge AB it that was buried and he didn't know and he really could not get his boat off so we had to jump off and they they um and they they had to save them and then they had to go back the next day and they actually got very hard but they got the the boat the U the vendor's boat out with our new Rescue uh equipment now way back there was some issues I know and people complained about the cost of this type of equipment rescue equipment but I have to say I mean it if all you need is to save one life that's all you need and that paid for that just pays for itself so I want to thank the police department and um the the the uh the patrolman that did rescue and and get the boat off that was a big deal and I want to want to thank our our our rescue squad on that um I also want thank Liz on the U the 911 ceremony it always brings tears to my eyes and we need to do that every year mayor I will support that every year uh I I wasn't here for that Pompton day but looking at all the pictures that looked like an amazing event and kudos to the p and day um committee they did a great job again and congratulations to Peter Fort for his promotion he's a very nice young man I've known him for years since he was a kid and these are the kind of of folks that we want to keep in our Police Department um shat Tre commission also met and I know they're ready and and willing to uh continue on with their program with the with the tree pruning and um removal when required Okay so we've been very busy we've been very busy with that um any questions on the applications for the private applications for the private property should go to Liz if there's any questions on that because that is going to be a whole other issue and um one of my new pet projects which I am was told tonight that the uh the PBA is agreed to remove the old ugly soda machine that's been broken for two years and they will they going going to take that away and I even believe they might help us with paying for some of the display case that we're looking to to purchase so uh I can't tell you how happy I am that they' there such a cooperation on this and it'll look beautiful when we're done and the front vestibule from of the of the um the municipal building will look much nicer and the police will have an appropriate display case for their their trophies so I'm very happy to report that they said they're work hopefully they're going to get this thing done in a month or so they just need somebody to move this big old machine can we get the DPW to help that okay so I I'll I'll I'll let der know and that was my report okay thank you councilwoman kilberg okay I'm going to start by doing my motion because I'm going to apologize ahead of time I have a lot to say um okay uh I make a motion to approve let's see to hold the 25th Annual class car show and close WQ a from 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. street closure between Pompton and leide ab police fire first aid to be notified on the following request okay they don't have a date on that though why is there no date on that I think it's oober no is it October 13th is that the car Liz do you know if there's a date on that [Music] yes oh through no uh we actually have to get permission from the town well there's a whole 13th I just put it on here the road is coming from the to all right keep it as keep it as a motion and there is a whole bunch of there is a whole bunch of um that all go for the same thing the Chamber of Commerce to contact Police Department in St Mary's Church to coordinate traffic control Certificate of Insurance to be provided to the buau to hang a banner on WQ AB advertising the 25th Annual classic car show from September 15 2024 through October 22nd 2024 contact the SE County engineering department for a permission to use um the pon hold parking lot during the 25th Annual classic car show can I have a second second Council paor all in favor I against okay I have more okay a motion to approve the request to wave burrow application fees for the lake Dale Girl Scouts for the use of hersfield Park on September 20th 2024 and October 27th 2024 this is interesting yes so we said no I said no we said no we've said no no mayor if I may sure I believe that this specific example was through the Board of Education and that it did fall under the umbrella of the municipal family perfect sold me I'm in sold me wait can you explain that I'm just asking mentioned earlier about so does will our Girl Scouts then fall under the board of educ this is this is the lake uh what is this so Girl Scouts yeah L side Girl Scout I I could be misunderstanding and I'll defer to Liz but I believe that this was the high school band no it's the full Festival Okay so inance thank you no scouts okay so my question is if the scouts are a part of school right their events are held at school not they're not a part [Music] of separate not helping me I understand this is why I whole conversation let's be honest okay hang on hang on and and I know that there's the discussion we we passed this ordinance last year okay the only person that can say that they weren't fully aware that we were going to charge groups including nonprofits is Lisa we all saw this ordinance we all voted in favor of it okay now we're have to implement it that's it that's it that's what it is it's unfortunate but that's what it is not not no we are not so uh uh you you made a can I have a second so there would be no second on this I don't think unless somebody wants to make this I okay now I got to do a roll call [Music] please wait a minute what are we doing rooll for the Girl Scouts waving of the feet but we already decided that we're not doing that been W so what about the bo Scouts thanks you guys want get no know have a hard time with it are the group that's in [Music] 10 all right what just just tell me what I'm voting on you're voting to wave the fee for the Girl Scouts after you voted not to wave fees for any nonprofit that's not a for1 not that's because that's what our attorney yes recommended correct okay well oh my goodness gone through the board of that Michael no this was a separate issue a separate issue okay well I don't want the Girl Scouts to pay I mean I he just I know we just did but uh but I'm I'm not happy about that I'm I'm not happy about it you got a vote it's a roll call $45 it's a case by case basis that's all I said you said we can't do that not Case by case no I mean I understand it into into I [Music] know it's more correct oh okay what's the price we're looking at here yeah got doing this every single time then we can just go back and change the ordinance we already voted on what yeah I think maybe we should revisit the ordinance but we can't right now cuz we're in unless you have to vot table someone tables this right now you have to vote so we can vote Yes or No Yes you wave or no you don't no you're voting no to not wave for the Girl Scouts no hundreds of to to to wave so that's yes oh that's what I'm saying how how do we I'm voting no and not because of the Girl Scouts but because we just passed an ordinance it's a complete contradiction yourone somehow so that's unnecessary okay we passed an ordinance and I'm not going to sit here and be a hypocrite and contradict myself my daughter was a girl scout too okay council president no no any comments for that are you good now want to throw comments you look tired you got a lot of extra activities going on now I got keep track so there's how's Church a yes no a yes you or no and a no right you're going to choke me out did you just say on the record that you're going to choke me out all right guys stop uh perhaps I would like to hear that on the recording because that was definitely a threat and that needs to be addressed okay Lisa you are the breaking Bo right now on yes yes you it's a yes we're waiting the we're waiting the feast on the okay so I am so I I'm fine with waving fees but I I have to agree with Council woman poor we we no I we pass an ordinance to to you can't go back after you pass an ordinance unless you change the ordinance and say we're going to do it on a case-by Case basis I think we should revisit the ordinance and I wasn't here when the ordinance was passed I think we need to revisit it what but we did it just now what do you mean we just agreed upon it just now Workshop yeah we agreed upon everything we just we just I wasn't okay have a yes we just did a vot it's a yes it's a yes right now so this passes I'm going to say this what we're going to pass it this time and I agree we should we need to revisit the ordinance again a full discussion everyone knows what we're talking about come prepared for it you understand it doesn't involve the groups that we're talking about so you all know all this coming in you all kind of heard that before and we went went the right direction but now we're changing that it looks like well honestly I mean we were not we were talking about fishermen coming in and making we actually said yeah we were talking about all that way back when we wrote that so we weren't talking about the the kids no we did say we brought them up first you know we said means when the ordinance was original oh I I don't all right so that's where we are it's passed right now and then we'll have to read address sorry have a lot all right so all right we'll be contacting you though all right wait a second I have a yes I do have a report was that it so you can see who's app yeah okay all right now I have a motion to approve a request from the Pompton Lakes Riverdale first aid Squad to hold the tag style fundraiser on October 13th 2024 between the hours of 9:00 a.m to 5:00 p.m. rain date October 20th 2024 at the intersection of Hamburg Turnpike and Ramapo AV police have approved a traffic control plan ANSI certified traffic vest to be worn uh positioned in yellow no travel portion roadway behind traffic barrels Bay County Board of uh County Commissioners has been notified can I have a second second council president line all in favor I against and now you have a report okay yes don't talk about the ordinance I will not um I attended the recreation meeting um we have pickle ball adults September 10th to October 15th 5:30 to 7 um let's see we have women's get fit Monday and Wednesday September 16th to November 20th at the Lincoln School gym Halloween hunt September October 20th 700 p.m. hersfield Park rain date um October 21st did I say September you did say sep it's October 20th um breakfast with Santa Saturday December 14th 2024 at the Pompton Lakes Elks um there's two seatings 8:30 and 10:30 um and then there's pickle ball Saturday November 2nd To December 7th at the Lincoln School gym for more information you can call Karen um at 973 839 4167 I have more and then I attend uh I attended the Pompton day meeting um leading up to Pompton day um we had some early rain but otherwise the event was it was wonderful I mean it it turned out to be a beautiful day um we all the spots were sold out we had a lot of vendors um it was very nice it was a it was a beautiful day um and I have some winners here so the Pompton day Raffle winners um first place with was Kathy santer second was Chris wer third was Trudy a problem with that one too I I'm trying to read someone's handwriting so it's a little hard guio I think um we had 198 runners or SL walkers for the 5K uh 23 children fish at for the fishing derby first place was Elena orano second was carara Davidson and third was Zoe L lahan um we had eight competed in the kayak race um the plr r y Punt Pass um and kick uh was cancelled due to the rain we had 40 um plr LL for the Home Run Derby 30 plrsa for the Red Bull soccer shootout 14 PL R yo um basketball shootout eight for the jiujitsu cup top Jiu-Jitsu six team six teams competed for the fir truck Pole and uh the winners were the Jenning family uh says they beat the Girl Scouts that's sad um Applebee's uh stuffed the bus was very successful uh Pompton Lakes wreck uh 400 goldfish winners um what are she has a few here upwa Cardinal Clash um I don't know what that wrestling yeah oh oh maybe that's why I didn't understand what that was um I they had interviews and photos how nice um Jack's petting zoo uh was you know kid and family friend friendly um the vendors were so at 31 food vendors you said that and then Lakeside School and the and the Pompton Lakes um Lakeside Middle School were open uh dunk tank we had principal Scott wisi Lyla Cruz Aiden vuta and Veta and Ava Veta AJ pcel and David faric um and I think U you know just oh she's thanking the volunteers and the businesses and the ads and the Pompton Lakes Els and the Board of Education and many more that was from Karen um and I myself would like to thank Karen Steve bag Danny black Mike shakan and everyone who helped on the Pompton Day committee because they really worked very hard and it was very successful I'd like to thank all the vendors the police Fire EMS um and the Jennings family for they for 40 plus years run the 5K run and it was a great turnout um and uh oh congratulations to detective Forte and um i' like i' like to thank Liz and everyone who made the 911 ceremony so nice it really was nice it's touching um and then I just had a couple of questions um I I sat I listened to the Redevelopment meeting and in that meeting they said that although they all okay so I'm trying to understand all of this and they say so they set forth the Redevelopment plan and they suggest the pilot and all of that but it's our job to implement that or fine if so if to approve that to approve it not to implement to approve it well okay so the C is it that the cjm building the one that they just got their permits and they started clearing out so if they don't clear that out like if they don't do it in such a that's our job no that would be Redevelopment recommend to us or to the administration really it wouldn't be out of our hands it would be the administration to pull the pilot but that's not what they to pull the pilot I'm not sure do we okay they said it was our it was our responsibility I just wanted to make sure of that because then we need to keep an eye on well no but so let's understand what that means they can just put do a little bit of work and that carries them for for 60 days so they they're going to do it they're going to finish this there's no question in my mind they're going to do that but we did put pressure on them to start for the 60 days and that's why they started they they have time now that's not like every day they have to be out there working crazy to do this I would hope but I would hope he he's losing money every day he doesn't do it so he's he's got to do it yeah but you're that is correct we would we make the decision so it's it's the council that makes that decision okay but they they fell within just so we get straight they did fall within their parameters they did what they were supposed to do within the 60 days yes no I know they they had so many days to to start work after their permits and they started that I just wanted to know if they how many days they had after that and to make sure that we were really responsible for keeping an eye on that not the Redevelopment agency well s would the building department would reach out to us talk to Michael they haven't done anything um and then I had just a question I know I emailed you Michael about the letters the answer the you know 10day I was just wondering what was what you know if something there was a response sent and what that response was if you can forward it to us and um I did see something on I did notice something on the bill list I wanted to ask you about um there's two charges one is for pay County Community College and the other one is for Ruckers and I wanted to know if they were like college classes or if they're just courses like is that a course that you're take that someone's taking [Music] in my report I'll I'll address it I have to find it okay that's it my report thank you for your report uh attorney two brief things man um one is that uh michaelo a supplemental assessment that has received from The Joint Insurance Fund that Carl was formerly a member of the middle sex County Municipal joint Insurance Fund and my understanding is that they've been uh sing supplemental assessments to the burrow over the past year or two and the burrow is and the burrow is is one of 50 Public entities that's been receiving supplemental assessments and there's some question as to whether the assessment is really claims related or whether it's mismanagement of the of the joint Insurance Fund and so I did a little digging I saw that uh what I was familiar with the business administrator all the other towns that has a significantly higher uh supplemental assessment and I spoke to their attorney and there is a um there's a cohort of of comities M St that have thrown their lot together and then TR defense agreement I just got that today so I'm going to go through that I'm going to talk to Michel and what I may recommend is that we talk about that CL session uh at the the next meeting we chose a couple years ago not to be any oh number one number one yeah just you know there may be strength in numbers but I don't know but but I will uh you know I'll have more to say about that in close second um second is um like you Michael included me on the circulating the notice the violations and so I took the look I just asked Michael to send me the contractor's agreement um and there's an indeni for that agreement so I suggested to the engine here that we talk about you know what you know who's responsible for what here um and that's something also that we may have a play s next I that meeting has yet happen I I supp to tell we we just exchanged theils uh yesterday so we can get together next week like go through that so sounds good okay Min for thank you mayor uh if you uh are not aware uh we had a restriping uh issue down at the pond hole with 26-30 Lakeside a which is owned by a business owner in town uh when we resurfaced the pond hole many years ago uh the business owner was claiming that we took two parking spots away from her when we restriped the ponle uh I had the burrow engineer look into it over the past few months he did confirm that that we did take away the two spots um and just this past week uh as part of the Howard Street improvements project uh we were able to restripe a section of her property uh to give her back the two spots that we took away from her so that has been completed and you can go down and take a look at the new uh striping exhibit that was done uh so we're H happy that that was uh finished and then the last thing I have for tonight uh is yes we did receive seven notice of violations from the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection uh we did have a 10-day window of response to the D um our burough engineer Tom barate did request a extension to them uh we were granted the extension of addition an additional 10 days and we are setting up a meeting with the DP to discuss further uh some more to come on that topic thank you do you want to answer L's concerns oh yes uh my apologies uh the first class with the fa County Community College is with a continuing education class for the building department for a an inspector and then the course with Ruckers is for a continuing ed class in the uh finance department thank you any questions from the administration no okay have a motion to open the meeting for public comments council president dine Council woman paor all in favor I against anyone public like to address a lot of Happ I I'm here I literally came right from I been mad at you guys before you all know that I've been disappointed before I've never been the way I I want you to understand one what the cost are going that are turny don't know don't make TOS then and I have two kids usually on the familys shareed do share uncertainy we a lot of hats I know how things work I understand following rules as any of my leaders how much I they to follow our Council ruls you set this policy in place over the europeo I have jumped in every hoop you have set up every grop you sent out a whole harmless agreement that I looked at and said I need a laer to interpret this I am not comfortable signing this I'm a landscape architect I'm not a la sent it up to council I hadie I followed the rules I followed all of the rules every time last year you at PE for a fall festival for a welcome backfire I want you to understand the fees you wav because right now you're mighty money Cy towards a service organization $60 per hour that is what is on the prit $60 per hour a 4our event involving 100 girls running events for the community open to the community okay back the full Festival is you're not from this community how one will be take last [Music] year har field every trip sets up a some little C thing they make little B W costes to goap when they have all with prop it's a f for the servicing so we can provide service to the girls because if he are not forar this to anything friend not all of our girls families can afford to pay 60 70100 $200 for camping weend for them we W fundraiser so that we can give these girls opportunities sometimes these are the opportunities they get that LE to C that we to the county and that's what we're talking about theal schs is what our whole festival we need the car for about 10 hours so you're not talking about $45 house because you're talking about [Music] $600 that's a lot of money and even putting that aside okay rules are rules we don't care that it's girls we don't care that it's students we don't care that it's Girl Scouts rules are rules right right rules are rules so what about what about grow or services Service events in the Park Community Service events in the park do my girls have to pay to clean up litter on a trail do my girls have to pay to install a little Free Library you have two of them in this town because of my girls to 96380 and sold a little Library which they had maintained it was vandalized twice they paid for repairs the maintenance of it has not cost borrow a red scent but you know what the books are always gone and new books go in because that helps Community literacy but you want my girls to pay $60 an hour to install something like that if did saing at Lakeside Park in fact you truth that did that I know you a summer we program it was free of charge free of charge two Saturdays dur the summer when they ready go to little kids great experiments for the girls they had to plan they had to learn it was fantastic you want them to pay $60 an hour each of those events you blocked out 2 hours for the event itself half an hour for clean up half an hour for set for $180 for two events are $260 they supposed to pay so what to read stories to younger children to encourage literacy your community to ins Soul physical lasting things you may not be familiar with the Bron silver and golden Wars that all Scout a higher service ofs golden war of he par to evil Scout but the goal War has entire hours required of it and he's actually more rhous process the last piece of the puzzle on all of those Awards well it's for Middle School silver uh bronze sorry bronze for fourth and fifth grade start young silver for Middle School gold for High School the last piece of that is that it must be sustainable it must carry on to the community after the girl has aged out in graduated you don't want those incom LS anymore I guess because my girls cannot afford to do those projects if they have to pay to use public places in this town I I'm I'm disgusted I'm so disappointed I have never been this disappointed in I don't know if I have ever been this angry with all of you I appreciate the questions asked I appreciate voting to leave I appreciate continuing to Value these girls I really do and you know I appreciate with you were a girl you should know the programs you should know what they do the examples you gave have nothing with you but I my five minutes I think the five minutes where are we just okay up so you got a couple minutes okay I'm going to apply Bo Scouts te I have to tell the people Scout who I just signed off on paperwork for that he in addition to the fundraising he's going to build two chios explorers with Mars now Greenway it's already been approved he's put a hell of a lot of work into that he's got a hund and cover R his materials the world isn't paying for any of this you're not paying you're not paying for the lumber you're not paying for the labor you are getting something for nothing from these Scout groups you are getting service from these Scout groups and it's said you want to take from [Applause] them this is not an ordinary nonprofit that is doing service somewhere else and then coming in these are kids who are working in these places that you want to now charge them to be when do you ever charge someone to do service in their in in space where they are I I don't understand how you can say that this is the same as every other I really don't and I don't understand how you give be so want as to think that it is and don't think that this is a I mean will just have to pull out doing things in Poli this is how it has to be if you have to charge us to be there and we can't afford to be there we can't afford to be there um it's really unfortunate I don't know okay I I'll answer it the thank you anyone else from the part want to address Step Up Howard Street um first have a quick question about the agenda we have an agenda that was posted for the public decision are you supposed to deviate from that agenda without in with the rest of the council as you did tonight normally I would think as a former councilman we can hold the council and see you like to mediate from the agenda which you did have you Redevelopment ladyes speak first and that's great walk at the agenda's detail here that was posted so um that I had a problem with but my big problem is with the seven notices of violation in Stand now I'd like to know Michael if you have that letter your possession into your because I'll tell you what in that letter D which I it states that burough was going to take responsibility for all the work that was done on private property okay we received I believe four notices of violation and private property owners received free okay I want to know if you guys voted to clean up somebody else's mess who made a mistake and did damage to other people's property and caused us to get a notice of violation and we're sending information to the engineer and the D from our engineer without any discussion okay with this discovering mind and that's what I want to know that any of you discussed this before that letter was sent because that letter clearly states that the burrow has taking responsibility for that and I got a problem with that it taxpayer should not have to pay for damage that somebody else did we hired that guy to do Straight planing we didn't hire him to run a soil mining operation behind the hardware store okay and it was brought to your attention by me over 6 months ago I came in and I stated on the record that you're doing a great job on the CRS that I don't think we get any points for filling in the river and then when I read the minutes it wasn't in the minutes what I said about the river but it was congratulations on a good job with the CRS and I still congratulate you for that but the damage you're doing here it's a big mistake and these taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for somebody else's mistake either you go after his insurance company or you go after your own insurance company because you hire but you didn't hire them to work on other people's property so I would be very concerned that if you people didn't have any any conversation whatsoever on a public record of sending down a letter stating that you're going to repair people's property that someone else dids damage to that's a problem for me thank you thank you anyone else public address some of I originally came to just asked a question about uh enforcement of parking laws because I still see it you still see it on uh public property and if you look at corner ofand and L see people Park walk fence line the school and it's turned into a m mess luckily hasn't rained in a while so uh it's not so bad right now but that should probably be addressed along with all the other parking on lawns and in public areas um then it's a problem in uh not so much in tall but where where Ed was talking about on the other side of L Avenue there's all kinds of parking there leaving abandoned cars um so I think that uh I don't see the enforcement I don't know what you guys are doing you could address that here or you can just take it and decide to take a look and drive around and see it now while I was sitting through this very long meeting I noticed two other things that were concerning the uh presentation of the planner was talking about the vision of the downtown now the vision of the downtown isn't just like the bulk requirements and the setbacks but how many ultimately how many units do you want downtown so when you set the standards of Redevelopment you have to say Okay we want 600 units because the way I see the development happening it's all very peaceful so you could end up with if you don't pay attention you can end up with say 20 100 unit buildings now that's maybe a bit of an exaggeration but you could piece KN your way to a much larger development that you see how many square feet of commercial property do you want or how many square feet of retail so when you're looking at the uh and you don't have to address this I just want you to think about it when you are looking at the new development plan this should be the consideration ultimately how big of a development do you want to have there and then the last thing is I sat through a whole discussion about sidewalks now the question you guys are having a discussion without understanding the scope so you need to know how many lineal feet of SC sidewalks that are in disrepair how many are good so you can understand the cost of what you're talking about they was Zero facts presented and you spent 25 minutes talking about it which is just too long to sit here and listen to so I think you really need to change what you're doing when you have a discussion about this have some real facts so you know what you're talking about and then with regards to assessments listen it's tough if somebody can't afford it but there are ways to handle that you can do an assessment over time so it's not just you know hit a guy with a $3,000 Bill hit him with a $300 a month Bill we sell property then you collect that and you know you'll always collect you laugh money but you have the first lean ahead of everybody cuz you're a public you're a Publican your lean comes ahead of the mortgage your lean comes ahead of everybody so I think that there's some sort of understanding you need to understand about leans and fines and also you know what the scope of the work is before you make any kind of decisions and you apparently made a decision without understanding the scope that's why thank you anyone else from the public like to address well I might as well raise my hand um on a good note I agree with you on I have friends and relatives that come down just to see it really great um he was talking about side through the shry commission that I've been on for the last 12 years or so i r across side side vision for um talking about Conant theine as it doesn't matter if there's new slabs or all slabs what happened when I did The Heading C access on each end of mon I talked to the engineer who's walking wrong and I said are you going to replace sidewalk he says no we don't do that we just doing it in the end okay so I left I came back on six of my slabs were missing so I said you just told me you don't do sidewalk he says well when we do the handicap we have to walk the sidewalk because of some slabs High some slabs are high and if his wheelchair access way provide it then they have to re why don't you tell me that anyway so my sidewalk new one old one new one old one since said it doesn't matter but it's in front of my house and it looks reg but this is the way you're talking about assessing the homeowner over a period of time like the gentleman just said you're assessing him for something he doesn't even know the sidewalks are in the burrow right as well listen the attorney he was talking about legally the homeowner has to maintain this land trouble to sow R but if there's a liability someone gets hurt this is what said then the town's responsible now the town's responsible for an issue that the homeowner maintains how does that how do we figure that how do we figure that out so um also the mayor who was talking about the curs using my experience with shakry and one Calk issues there is an ordinance the number right up hand in our bar off that the curb is the responsibility of the homeowner also we had a discussion when you were talking about your curve let you change the ORD you're going to have to pay for the curve also now you understand in road projects like you're talking on cross iway a lot of the curs are replaced then um when I went across sidewalk issues a lot of the homeowners say it's the Barrow tree that left the sidewalk which is the issue and they're not going to replace or fix the sidewalk for the trees have two locations in that where I took the trees down and a year later they still haven't sidewalk so the sidewalk issues it's going to be it's a big issue to [Music] um yeah is the is the responsibility part is umcl the ordinance um and Kevin Bo was our he had also said may be M to address this is when they're doing a complete Road Project like you're going to do on Jo that in that project you can BL Tru know if you're aware of that we can do that um speaking with the councilman goine last year he had said that D highway is an area that do um up on Mrs venon south end of town do the stre so maybe in that project we can get some trees planted on Highway we can do it all the thank you thank you anyone else like to address the council seeing no one have a motion close the public session second council president D councilman Cruz all in favor yes m v I hear you I understand what you're saying completely um and and it and this is why we're going to re re visit this whole ordinance because the problem is if we just say non uh 401c 501c groups that does leave some groups like The Girl Scouts and boy scouts out I understand that but on the same token you have to and I know you understand this that doesn't stop another group who says I want to play Frisbee football and it's a club in town that we want to use the property so you know it goes both ways but I do believe what you're saying we have to figure out a way to get the girl couns and voice coun and I think most of this Council by the way agrees with that I I just think going back to councilman Bin's point and councilman Paul dory's point this is what we voted on a year ago okay if this is what we voted on and you said it yourself you have to follow the rules then we do have to follow the rules now that doesn't mean we can't change the rules okay and we can move forward and see how that goes and the reason I was a little hesitant about what happened tonight is because we just had and you weren't here for this we just had the discussion and then we changed what we just decided so we we can't really do that you can't if we have to change it because it doesn't work the ordinance committee is going to rewrite an ordinance we're going to revisit it we're going to get some intake from people on how to make this work and try to get the groups in but you got to remember there are going to be groups that say on the Snowman Building Group and we want it for six hours and we built snowman on in DEC December they're not from they may be some from town but they're not a group like the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts so we have to distinguish between those two groups so I think the job of the ordinance committee is going to be to try to figure out a compromise to make that work right now fees are away for you so it's a good thing okay hopefully Bobby will start to look at this and address it and hopefully in the next couple meetings we'll we'll come up with a solution okay Mr M I apologize if I H I apologize I don't know if I want just move things well well no one objected so yeah so that that answers that question uh about the property of the DPW I mean d we are still in the beginning stages of this I hear what you're saying I hear about the stone I hear about the insurance those are not things that are not off the table we are going to have that discussion and we're going to sit with the administration and the DP and figure out what's going on about who's working on private property I can't really address that I don't think and some of the council here can respond if they want did we ever discuss working on private property I don't remember that we did um but that might have been a b administrator before Michael that made that decision which is what my guess was it was a bur Administration that made that decision on their own and if it falls under the uh threshold of bid he's allowed to do that so I don't know what those numbers are and I don't know if we're going to address the private property or not those are all discussions we're going to have and Michael I'll let you add anything you want to add about that um going forward we're in the beginning phases of this this is not as you know because you've done this before this is not the first rodal we've had the DP and these concerns and it seems to always work itself out by compromise between D and us us doing what we're supposed to do and the D telling us what we're supposed to do about the private property that's a discussion and if it has to it will come to the council to decide if we're going to go on prate prop so that's what I have with that uh Mr seon you brought up a lot of great points um but I will tell you school parking is school parking we have no jurisdiction on school so I know what you're talking about the property there that's up the school to address private property unless they have a and I am 100% in agreement with you I I told you this last time if cars are parked on grass and up on blocks they need to be ticketed I have no no in between the problem with that is someone has to call in and report that it's all just has to be it's going to be anonymous call and just say this is the address that house has and I'm going to tell you I've done it I have made this because I I don't like it either um about parking on and in private property and behind the fuger stor things that's all private property they're under unless they're breaking some type of law like leaking oil or something like that that's private property there's nothing we can do about that um you also mentioned about the meeting so I don't know if you understand completely we voted just recently to add a workshop a workshop is a discussion there's no real decisions made like is our administrators asking for a feeling of what we feel we're not voting yes or no on really a yes or no concept on anything it's that's why it takes so long it's a discussion that was a long discussion and having a Redevelopment before that was a long discussion I've asked numerous times to try to reduce our workshops a little bit because we don't want to spend an hour just on Workshop but what you said does make some sense um and this goes for Mr Hinton also I knew the sidewalk thing was going to be a concern there there's no question I've done this long enough no one's going to be happy with that decision one way or the other but at the end of the day we do have to somehow fix our sidewalks too because they are unsafe so if we can save some money to the homeowner this is my own personal opinion by H H having it done while they're there it's going to save them a little money they can go out on their own and do it it's going to cost them more money but I understand there's some older residents that maybe can't afford it right now but if they ever want to sell that property they're going to have to fix the C so either way they're going to have to fix the C and don't we all want that side effects I I would think we all want better sidey now Mr hit you me you brought up a point and again I agree with you that I asked the same questions are you replacing any of my slabs they said no they came in and put the handicap accessible and then all of a sudden there's three slabs replaced they said same thing they told you they measured it they used some parameter and they said well this says that this has to be replaced well then you should have just told me right from the beginning that this was going to be replaced because I got the same situation I've got a bright white sidewalk and then my old dirty sidewalk last 20 years it does stick out I'm agreeing with M the council president that a sidewalks a sidewalk if it's wider if it's brown it's still a sidewalk right and that's what it's supposed to be you're supposed to walk on it it's supposed to be safe and you're not supposed to have any issues with that so again that was a discussion in a workshop we're going to have many more discussions I am sure about the sidewalks just like the trees you know I'm not a fan of this whole private property tree thing um we I think we've worked a compromise out right now that hopefully help some of the residents but at the end of the day it's education just like M Cruz was saying we're going to have to educate the public sidewalks private property six people that are sitting here and the seven people that watch it on channel 77 isn't mostly in town so we do it's going to be an education process to make that happen uh I miss anything handicap planting trees Mike can you look into planed trees when we do road work that's that's fine the assessment I forgot which 20 joh brought it up I you know I'm leaning toward my personal opinion is leaning towards an assessment but a small assessment like someone mentioned we do a small number and make them pay it over 10 years or whatever it is so it's not a big number and everybody wins they get a brand new sidewalk we get a brand new sidewalk and it's cost me very little money but again that's going to be a discussion this and how we handle that that's what I have um I know okay okay uh where are we motion no um anybody have Pro to the floor oh I just wanted to ask Michael which I I apologize Mr pav off he came uh last month I believe and he was concerned about the storm drain not being repaired do you have any updates thank you councilwoman and apologies for the voice I just have a little cold um yes we did go on site last month uh with the burrow engineer uh to look at the conditions and the engineer is working on a final construction document that we can present to the governing body uh hopefully over the over the fall okay but we're in constant communication with him okay uh regard regarding the project and that that's important okay thank you any other proos for okay motion to adjourn into we have a closed session yes motion to adjourn into close session I thank everyone for coming counc president in closed session we discussed the negotiation uh negotiation a motion to return return second kilberg councilman venon all in favor against okay that's it we're done