me please rise for silent invocation followed by the Pledge of Allegiance amen I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands God indivisible with liy and justice for all let's play ball clerk call the role councilman fley here councilman grubs here councilman Bastion here vice mayor sner here mayor Bernette here all at present we have a full Quorum welcome back uh Reed glad to see you I know that it was not the easiest for you to get back in time but uh you had plenty of extra time time in airports to read through all this so uh uh we're glad that you're here I'm glad to be seen with that item discussion item item Forest fiscal year 2024 2025 operating fund budgets capital outlay and capital Improvement programs Wayne who do you have presenting on this I'm going to do the presentation tonight uh we do have John and finance staff is here that worked on the budget as well as all the department heads so depending on the level of questions that you have we can bring them up to answer those but I'll do the overall from there get the power on TV all right so what I'm going to start with the presentation's got basically three components so the first one is just the background when we sat down as a department staff to put together the budget these are the directions that that we were providing to the Departments as they put it together the middle part is the details of the budget itself and then we conclude with the setting the max millage item at the end so starting off on that this is these are the priorities we've talked about years they're sort of our strategic pillars we've used for a long time the only thing that's different about this is I did had resilience as a standalone because particularly since the two hurricanes we've we've really made a priority of being sure that our community is stronger and easier better better suited to withstand recover from and minimize the impacts of natural disasters but not just them as well cyber attacks and other things so there's a lot of emphasis in the budget on protecting this community and being prepared for whatever may come um the text in here just as a couple different ways to look at it uh we did tell them there was no direction from Council starting this year in the budget to reduce any service level so it's designed as maintain all service levels and all functions that we have and then in some areas improve the service level so where we have infrastructure deficiencies meaning either old and dated infrastructure needs to be upgraded whether it's pipes small pipes older pipes uh old LIF stations or areas that don't have uh storm water that were built prior to certain storm water regulations the other point we made was we be aware that we're reaching build out here as a community and we will not have the the luxury of say like where Daytona Beach is now where they've got a tremendous amount of new development Revenue coming in we're not going to have that so we need to be building budgets looking over the next 5 to 10 years expecting flattening revenue streams as we go forward um the bottom part of that slide gets out just a couple of the big things we also have to deal with uh you've seen this before the pattern of of salaries and benefits and their percentage of the total cost uh every year we deal with insurance cost and inflation cost the Ben this year we're predicting an insurance renewal cost that that goes up and down from year to year we expect this to be a typical year not overly High not overly low the inflation number we projected which is way nicer than it had been the last couple years where we were up as high as the 9 89% so that's come back down and last fall we updated the fees for a number of our services so that's provided a little bit more flexibility with revenue and those funds another way to look at it and I just put this quote in here it focuses on the budgets being driven by uh proactive maintenance of what we own taking care of what we have uh you've probably seen that in other communities the last thing you want to be is one of those headline cities where you have major failures in infrastructure because you didn't address it until it actually became an emergency and the same thing with the people the the two components I think that that I told them is take care of our infrastructure be sure that we're proactive we do not want to defer maintenance on infrastructure and the people here uh are critical to us the way everything gets done we're a service oriented organization what gets done gets done by the 500 people that work for the city of Port Orange so uh we actually if you look at the culture over the last several years and I I've got this next slide gets into a lot of details of that um we have one of the strongest sets of employees we've had in all the time I've been around so I started back in ' 07 we are now down to about 10 vacancies Citywide essentially zero in the police department we have people in training so we were we have a been a made a huge difference uh we have employees who are geared to finding ways to do things better um there I'll tell you over the multiple years I've worked in government there are there there places that have employees who will see something that doesn't work well that's not functioning well walk past it and go can't wait to see that blow up Management's face and and that's a terrible thing to have the the employees of Port Orange walk past that and go I know I can do this better I'll go tell them I can do it better and this is the list of things that they've done this year I think one of the things when we were putting this together because I wanted to make sure it was clear to everyone that our employees don't just sit here and go it's time for the new budget what do we do to pay for stuff with inflationary costs let's raise taxes they are trying to find ways to lower costs do more with less we see this coming from Council all the time that you guys bring the same thing to the table we don't expect you to just keep doing the same thing we expect you to find improvements some of these are are major cost savings so the the switch over to Tyler is about $300,000 a year cheaper than the prior software was it's a more functional produ product more people have so it fits our needs better uh we just had the Dayton Beach Shores switch over to paying electronically that's about 3030 $40,000 a year in savings and and credit card fees that we were paying for them one of the things that's in there with the utility department so they we have we spent a lot of money on material chemicals and things to treat our water and to treat our waste water and however much of that use that's a lot of money to do we we in the past had had a consultant on board sort of an older computer product that helped mix these all together to get to the requirement so that we had the the federal standard Quality Water and we now have in-house people who are experts at putting this together think about them they're like expert chefs they they can build the best model of water at the least amount of materials needed so they are saving us hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in chemical cost to keep our water clean and and safe uh that that is a lot the price of the goods that they were putting in that we that we pay for have skyrocketed through inflation recently and we haven't had to increase the cost because all we're using so much less that we've been able to absorb the increases in costs without going up that same group of people we do in-house testing of our nutrient loads that was something the state originally said we don't let people do that and our guys were so good and so persistent they went out and said why not we think we can that saves Us close to 50 Grand a year there there's a number of things in here when we were up in Tallahassee earlier in the year um the governor's office asking for legislative Appropriations as budget staff just let us know legislative Appropriations is probably not the future for for getting a lot of money we've done really well recently but you saw this year a ton of things got vetoed throughout the region the the staff said look we have put money in multiple places out there that don't subject you to the State political process of going through the legislative appropriation budget vetos go get the money where it is and so our guys have gone out there and done Master plans that make us Grant eligible for all this money so we've got the 15 million for the sewer plant upgrade already we've got I think it's 100 200,000 for a a vulnerability assessment which will make us eligible for all the sustainability dollars throughout so having these things on board means we get to leverage our dollars throughout the state well let's face it too the $15 million that we got for a utility system from the state we wouldn't have gotten that money if we weren't very good at operating or uh how we take care of our water in the first place because the state doesn't like to reward failure failing you know they they they certainly like to see systems that work and work well and I'm very proud that we have one of the best uh functioning Water Systems if not the county at very least the entire region and we have a because of the people that run it it doesn't run itself absolutely those are the kind of people that come up with these ideas so so when we come in and you've you've probably read to the end of the story already so you know what we put in front of you is a budget based off the same millage rate 4999 which provides about 2 million a little over2 million more dollars in general fund Revenue that's not because we didn't do anything to lower our cost it's because there the the the things we've put in there exceed that savings that they did and I'll I'll go through and explain how we got to that but I just thought it was important there's a number of things on here one of the things we we will do this year to do better is instead of putting them together for you at the budget when these ideas come up we'll bring them into an actual council meeting and let them let the department head present to you what we've done to do things better so you'll be able to hear and see the improvements because they're they're constantly out there coming up with these ideas some of you have heard me tell you what my regular meetings I have with the department heads they come get me and take me to their places so we go out to the sewer plant we go to the fire training Tower we go out to our Parks uh i' sat in on the police accreditation meetings they they bring me out to their places and show me what they what the ideas they have to do better so I expect this to keep going government has certain core competencies of the things that we do well things like Public Safety water sewer things like that one of the natural core competencies of government is not necessarily commun communicating our message and we've got people in place now that I think can do that effectively and really the more we tell people and inform people and you know not just the the the simple things uh you know certainly Port Orange University is a part of that but uh just on a regular basis being able to bring good news to counil because when you bring it to us there are a lot of people that pay attention and I really appreciate the uh uh the uh emphasis on that moving forward the one thing I forgot I didn't put the note clear enough that the in addition to this there are some things down here that didn't have necessarily monetary impacts but they have respect and credibility impacts to show that you've got quality people here one that's not on here those because recently that the the tragedy at Sugar Mill Elementary where we had the accident the police officers if you've been able to watch our police officers who serve in that area work in the motor unit and and their efforts to find ways to make things safer between them and our public work staff all the amount of time that's gone in but I've sat in meetings and watch people who are enforcement based sit there with school people and and use their experience in enforcement to tell them this is how to make your road safer and they really care like watch watching somebody you know you go speeding you're going to get in trouble you probably won't see the nice version of that officer but when it comes to how do you make the school is a safer place they pay attention and they have provided concrete ideas on how to do things better so we start moving forward with that again it's so most of it on here is monetary benefits but there are a lot of things that they do to build credibility and respect fact in the community I think you just gave a preview of next month's Council so so this is the part of the presentation that's all about the numbers uh the big P starting big picture going through overall to funds and then to the more traditional ways you look at it the the budget is put together at that millage rates 169 about $170 million the uh last year's budget was about $185 so this actually $15 million lower as an overall budget uh some of that is due to the to we had Capital dollars put in there that that show up one time and then end up in the funds but they don't show up each year so we had put aside some money last year for City Hall we have Grant funds and other capital projects so that's why the total is a little lower you probably saw that the state a few years ago there was a tremendous infusion of federal money at the state and and their state budget went up once the federal money went away the budget dropped and you know there was a lot of conversation about how they saved billions of dollars in the state budget but what they really did is not have Federal money added to their budget to spend we we kind of had something here is the the number is substantially lower than last year as a whole principally because those were onetime funds that that have now moved on the general fund itself at 61 last year was about 58 so it's a little over two 2.4 or so more U the operating millage rate for that that's that's tonight proposed is4 9999 and our Geo Bond millage rate is the 01720 associated with that the bottom part of this just shows you some of the bigger components of it the capital Improvement program $28 Million worth of construction projects coming up in the upcoming year about $6 Million worth of outlay which is mostly Fleet and and repairs and work on buildings the 28 million you'll see there there's a some of the enhancements are tied to the capital project process as we go forward this breaks down the budget by fund it's kind of more of a finance way to show things in funding Cycles if you want me to stop I'll go over them but I'll kind of move through the fund version and get to the more specifics uh what the main thing on just want to see is that the Enterprise funds are actually larger than the general fund when it comes to overall expenditures is this is detail of the funds broke down by all the things that were underneath those larger categories and what the dollars are um the these are it's by fund it's harder to explain the changes because their Capital goes in and one year like water sewer we had like eight or nine projects last year this year we only have four so it's substantially down one of the funds had major Grant dollars in there so it was up now it's down down uh we had FEMA money going into one of the funds so it it's it's a thing that the finance staff and John wants to give you the theory of fund accounting and all the funds you can but it it it's not as easy to understand why these go because they're affected by so many different things here here's the smaller version this is the the smaller ones that cost less than the big ones they have uh C's building departments fund is in here same thing is the others the general funds what most people spend a lot of time talking about this is where we get our money from so this breaks it down by the sources uh there's nothing different here than you've seen a lot of you are veteran council members so you've probably seen this slide or something like it multiple times the ratios are fairly similar here the amount that's taxes compared to the the intergovernmental transfers are actually fairly significant as the number two influx of where we get Revenue at over 7 million so you can see why that becomes so important and as we struggle when we're trying to tell you exactly how much money we have because the state's budget starts July 1 and they don't often finalize all these exact numbers to us they don't really have to until some of them could be as late as August before we get them last year we were fortunate we got most of them in mid July but a $300,000 hit there is a is a substantial impact to our our operation so that's important to know where the money comes from and then I just took this and broke down the property tax and this is where the the where the tax money comes from as that bigger piece of that other pod again this is the same thing that you've seen year after year the dominant is residential have a fair balance with commercial because of the larger shopping centers that we have in the area the 70% of our homes are homesteaded so that that we actually there's a substantially reduction and the amount of total money we get off of that much residential because of the protections that are provided to our homeowners from taxes going up wa can I you for just one second um as far as the intergovernmental Revenue funds do do we is there anything anything that we're still waiting on or is all of that I don't think we have any of them yet we're projecting you have two so everything is projections based on we're projecting flat so we I'm sorry we're projecting fairly flat projecting flat but we don't have the definitive numbers do you remember about what how long ago what it seemed like it took a while last year too mid August yeah mid August so we won't see those numbers definitively for a while and and then it's hard to take with the state yeah okay okay this is how we spend the money in the general fund looking at it by operating not not by department but by what it spend on the stuff so it people similar to the other one same ratios you've seen in in Prior years uh the transfers we try to put some examples on the chart there so you can see examples of the where where general fund money is transferred to but generally again the same same ratios that you've seen in the past uh here's the department version this is the one most people look at uh our our big expend and Public Safety have always been in that era of close to 50% the then you've got your public works and and public and parks that are the other large one and then all the rest of the Departments are fairly small what we did here this year they they were all told as we talked about earlier to be a carry forward budget uh 0 to 3% was allowed for inflationary impacts to gas prices and the and the various items that they have in their operating budget and and so that's the the ratios are the same there slightly higher numbers and I I'll get to where the specifics where the the 2 million from the extra Revenue that comes from not from from using the existing millage rate um the Enterprise funds here again similar breakdown utilities being the biggest the special Revenue funds are smaller but similar revenues there grant money uh we put examples down there to see where we get our grant money from we do pretty well with the the Statewide money for transportation project so that actually ends up being a pretty good Revenue source for us uh and then this moving on to the capital Improvement so we did this back at the beginning of June went through it in detail uh these are the two big expenditures in there 28 million of construction projects and then the outlay for the the other pieces of equipment I I put a summary sheet here of the notable projects we have the PowerPoint if if you want to get into that if we end up in too much of a a debate on the millage rate there's about uh 5.5 million do of these projects are general fund and you have about $3 million of the outlay that's general fund so when you're looking at the B major components outside of our people you got about over $8 million of this stuff that we spend general fund dollars on there's some pretty important and notable projects in there including building the improvements to the Cambridge Canal um a lot of these we we went through so you can see the resilience Focus the utility upgrade f Focus the parks focus in there that even with a with a Parks bond out there we have always committed to and spent money maintaining our parks and upgrading them along the way the the bond ends up being building more capacity but we do take care of our parks and you see these kind of things every year I I put the bottom part in there is prior year funding because a lot of times people forget like what about this project did what happened to it but it was funded in a prior year but this year you'll see activity on it so that's what those are um I think there's there probably be some discussion about the city hall elevator because that came up that night so just to give you a brief on that because it we had we had budgeted about $400,000 for that Project based off of preliminary conversations and discussions we hadn't reached the point of contracts or detail and as it came up there was some pretty good concern amongst the council members do we really want to put that kind of money into an elevator when whether we whether whatever happens with City Hall it's going to be some form of a major renovation those elev are not going to stay they're old old technology old Hydraulics as we started pushing back on the elevator conversation and trying to get a good price Council I think the majority of the council members said we're not paying $400,000 to fix two elevators for three years so we were trying to find a way to logistically have an elevator functioning at all times so because we have there's no way to get upstairs ADA Compliant if there's stairs you if you're Mobility impaired you can't get there we have employees who would have to move back downstairs and we have customers we'd have to serve we'd have to kind of rework the building so as we started talking about it uh the Public Works staff and and Robin spent some time with the elevator people and and through good hard work on their part they were able to get us a price estimate to do both elevators for 190 so we we if we push down that and do that that means we don't have to worry about the lack of it and then the extra money that was in the budget can go back into the fund balance and you might be able to you can either reallocate it or you can use it to do something with your millage if you'd like to but based on that conversation we had not reached the point of actually pushing hard to get a contract it's not like they were going to pay 400,000 that was a budget estimate from conversations but once we told them we don't need an elevator to be 25 years we need an elevator to be three then that helped build it so that's that just letting you know I don't want to these other projects are far more sub substantial and significant to the community but that one has a change from when we talked about it in June good change these are the service enhancements for employees and a couple of extra uh funding expenses uh the two Community Service uh officers were talked about these are the civilian police department employees that will direct traffic at the two elementary schools where we have the greatest congestion and and so those are those are there general fund the the two management level positions I would say so the the em S Division Chief was an existing position the fire department had that in the past it went away with budget cuts in Prior years uh we have reached the point with having an ambulance now though that it the chain of command the span of control it's a very complex job we are part of the county system so there's a lot of requirements to main compliant with them uh they control the doctors they control the paperwork the data it it is the mass vast majority of what we do are medical calls uh our ambulance our transport has the most calls for service of any Municipal transport in the entire County so it is the busiest transport in the County Municipal not all the county ones but against all the cities that have them and and it also this person would be responsible for all the training all the handling of the the quartermaster what medicine do we have on the ambulance what equipment do we have on the ambulance it's reached a point where running it with the chief and a couple of other people is probably not the most efficient way and we and certain things may suffer they currently we we end up making about a million dollars in Revenue off running the transport we have been spending a little around the 800,000 Mark in the past couple years we've done oneof expenditures like buying a second set of bunker gear so it wasn't like we were spending that as ongoing so what they've requested to do this year is fill this position permanently and it'll still be the same expense that we're spending on the ambulance it'll still be about 850,000 but it'll be instead of it being a one-off purchase it'll be an ongoing cost of a personnel move but it would be funded by that Revenue that last year we bought bunker gear I think we put some money into the pension out of it one year too so instead of going with one off purchases for that extra money it would be ongoing Personnel the engineering position so you saw we do $28 million of of capital projects we we had typically we had a little lull during covid where we Dro down to doing fewer but we typically do somewhere between 23 24 $30 million of capital Port Orange had a history of of sort of dispersing Capital Management to all the Departments and there were there were very hardworking good people who tried their best to manage construction projects but it's not what they do for a living the these departments don't it was not the most effective way to run construction we when we created the engineering division we Consolidated most of the capital under engineering so there there are a ton of projects that that engineering is managing right now and I one of the things I've been fortun to do most of my career is is supervise some form of Capital project and if you get $10 million worth of a building You're Building or a $8 million pipe the money that you can save or the money you lose if you manage it incorrectly where you get bids aren't right because you didn't put together the documents correctly you get uh you get change orders cost overruns delays uh we have had capital in the past and and you can see this if you buy an air condition supposed to last 30 years nobody knows how to take care of it because it wasn't done scoped correctly you have to replace the the air conditioner in 20 years with a 30-year life you have roofs designed for 30 years you're replacing them in 20 years you the the cost of having this person assist Juno and and those of you who work with him you can you've seen his work ethic and his nobody he wouldn't ask for help if it wasn't something that wasn't critical for us to do the amount of construction that we're running you will save way more than $115,000 a year having somebody that's trained to manage these projects the cost of mistakes in capital at $28 million level is big and having somebody that's qualified so i' support this and and and ask them to to leave this in here because I thought that was a fair cost you can see it's split funded it only hits the general fund to 10% most of what he's doing is water sewer and storm water so it's a minimal impact to the general fund but it's a critical impact to our construction process as we go forward and then the two at the bottom uh we talked about this before so in the past we had not been able to execute well on sidewalk repairs and street sweeping the the new leadership team came in and immediately brought us higher quality people to work with and we took our budget which has always been tied to just what the gas tax gives us and so we've never we've never subsidized that with any Port Orange money we spent all of that money in less than six months this year so you guys were were good and and gave us a little extra to keep going so what we've put in this budget is another 350,000 so it's the the reason I put the arrows is that's 200,000 more than what was in there last year and 150,000 more that was in there last year for those twoo so this is the bulk these last two slides of the difference in the budget when it comes to actual things so some of them are under the Enterprises so you don't see them in the $2 million a little over 2 million in the general fund going up to the current millage but some of them you can see where the general fund is so it's your your capital projects that 5 million 53 of capital the 3 million of outlay and then these these positions here that's what you get for the extra $2 million and the general fund so as we start talking about it if you have questions I just want to make sure that that you you knew what we were doing and requesting so that's supposed to be street sweeping not Street repaving it is Street repaving it it's we it is repaving yeah so we did five miles this year alone hadn't done any in like 18 months prior to that and so this this will help us finish off the major streets and and it appeared to be a major Community concern so those were the two that we Ed to recommend to you that you put more in okay almost done with the talking before we get to the millage that we're required to show you the debt so the top one is existing debt I think I don't know if we've given it to you this well before but it's really well put together because it shows what we owe how much we pay and what year it's going to be paid off so you see eastport's almost done we got about three I think it's three of the utility ones there that are getting close to being retired uh and then the bottom is new debt these are replacement pieces of equipment we talked about back in June being bought with the debt model so it ends up being cheaper to the city to purchase them that way so you you see what you're doing moving forward in in your debt model Wayne when you uh retire debt from uh cras like Eastport does that free up dollars that can be used for infrastructure in that area so that you don't have to go to the general fund for those kind that's correct we for Eastport is now already making more money than we have to pay off on the debt so there's already a little pile being built so anytime there's a CIP project or anything we want to do in the Eastport CRA we now have CRA dollars to use we don't have to use and we have more going forward so for example like sidewalk repair done in that area could be used with those funds correct and then if we sell the Riverwalk property we'll pay off that debt then you'll have some money to do stuff in Riverwalk as well but that's what cras are supposed to be for they weren't supposed to to be debt retirement as much as they are to generate we're getting there we've been saddled with that that debt for a couple decades now so that's that's good news we don't I don't have a lot of detail on this but I I thought it was important to at least say in upcoming years because some of you will be around for this uh these these are not in this year's budget but it's it's when we told them what do you thinking about 5 10 15 years out what are you thinking about next year there's more commitment to Public Safety uh the parks Bond project the bond gets approved in a in a month uh we'll be looking at these projects showing up in in in CIP what we do a city hall and then we got to upgrade finish the upgrade of the wastewater treatment plant going forward so there's no detail to these it's just a look ahead to be aware that if you're sitting here next year at this time you'll probably see some of those now Wayne at school resource officer versus what you talked about just a minute ago with community service officers can you explain if those are different so so the community service officers are civilian police employees that direct traffic uh the school resource officer is an actual officer that would be assigned to the school they have asked us for help in the middle schools particularly uh to assist in that and we've seen some value in it so Manny and I still have to work out the the details of what and how to do it but we believe it's valuable enough to have considered in the next year upcoming budget I just want to make sure there's a clarification between what those two things are thank you so on to Max millage uh this is the we we do this pie every year based off the typical house and and the wedge that's the cities we're about 28% of your you presidents get the letter here's your tax bill we're about 28% of that bill going forward we'd be the same with this millage rate this year U This Is Us compared to everybody this is last year's millage because we we have not heard what every City's doing about four or five have reported I have a meeting with all the city managers tomorrow we may get a little bit more information of the ones that I've heard from they're all either staying the same Deltona is proposing to go up to Barry is proposing to go to roll back everybody else is staying at the millage that they're at so we would it looks like we'll end up staying in the same position on the totem pole uh it looks for our standpoint we provide a a really good value to our residents to live here to we have consistently been in the least Village rates in the county and we provide very high level service it's it's a challenge it's an extreme Challenge rarely does being the cheapest equate to being the best if you're buying El ronics cars food you usually don't think by paying less you're going to get better but Port Orange we have figured out ways to get there it's harder to do that whole list of improvements that you've seen and the help that you guys have brought to us with your suggestions on how to be better has has been how we've been able to do this but without the people doing it it's hard to be that low on the village rate and provide the service we do and yet we still do I think that our residents this is a great City I can't find any major flaws with it I I think we really have done a good job as an organization providing that service to our people well I think we also need to remember that uh whenever we do this we owe our businesses a great debt of gratitude because most of our residents who've been here a while understand that uh with through their homestead exemption they're capped their increase is only going to go up so much because of that save our homes exemption our businesses don't have such a cap so they uh they take it on the chin and they continue to invest in us so it's good to to have that balance between residents and businesses not just so that the businesses serve our residents but uh when it comes to the tax bill uh we have that balanced approach and that does help keep us on the low end of the millage rate so whatever we do knowing that our residents have that cap to protect them at the end of the day we need to thank our businesses particularly our small businesses who have to figure it out this is what we put in the PowerPoint you got we we built one that's got more depth that was by 05 this is by a 0.025 so it gives you a little bit more Choice as you go through it so if it's okay with you I'll leave this one here as you discuss and the John I and all the staff are are here to answer any questions you have on any part of this or anything as you go forward with the millage item first last first last don't you uh I tell you what we're going to certainly uh let's do this let's work this way and then work this way uh questions of staff and comments on where we are militate and the like I'd kind of like to first of all get all the questions of Staff out there but as we go please I I want us all to comment on where we what our opinion is on what we should be doing with our military uh uh as we go so that all of us can absorb that as we go Scott why don't you open up um okay thank you Wayne just as a as a a matter of note that I think would be helpful as we move through the budget process in the beginning of the the um the presentation a lot a lot of the pages here like just I'm just trying to give you an example page nine 10 stuff like that if we can always see a comparative to previous year and have that number so we can try to you know especially once we get the budget books those things are are very thick but for it would be helpful I think for us to see okay in this particular line so to speak this was what it was for 2023 or 2024 so forth and going for it so just a a notation on that if we can as we do that that'll be helpful for all of us I think and let me go back to the page here give I'm spending police I'm spending 6.3 million in this budget and last year we spent 15.8 and I know most of that is Personnel uh but as a point of comparison line by line I tend to agree with that I think it just have just it's just helpful for us to try to see that um what so what was our carryover from last year's budget at the end what did we carry over to reserve funds John I'll answer those okay i' have to go get the ACT actually tell I'd like that I have other questions to ask if you we'll be we'll be here there's we'll be here um so so with with with that I I guess what I'm asking the next question is going to be where are we currently with this budget and what do we see Anticipation by by the end of the year and I know that there's a lot of variables there we got a long way to go to get to the end of the year but I'd kind of like to see where that's at and also get an update on where are we with our total Reserve funds at this moment in time um I know we as a policy we we we more than exceed the gfoa recommendations on those but I think that you know year by year that as we go through the budget process it's important for us to know where we're at and then be able to make decisions as to whether or not we want to be more aggressive utilizing some of that to get some things off of our plate especially with capital uh you know Capital Improvement stuff that's onetime expenditures and things like that so that's kind of what I was looking for from John to be able to have as we go through some of this he has an estimate of the carry forward because we wouldd have to have it to get the total budget for this year for this year yeah do we any you know I don't know if you know off the top of your head when he comes back we'll well let's wait we'll wait maybe you want to go to somebody else mayor for right now Drew well I want to hear some of those other figures too so yeah like there but I uh appreciate the presentation as it is uh designed and you know looking at the added millit rate scenarios helps so uh clearly what are we at it the current millit rate is 2 million over but in a $169 million budget I mean that's pretty much the cost of the the inflation or the CPI right or probably it's a little less than that the percent like eight and we were about three and a half or so on inflation okay so yeah so from general fund I mean you're that's 8% of the general fund it's much lower number off the the full City budget yeah you're right it's much closer to Total to so also kind of keep in mind when it comes to salaries we're playing catchup so oh we and so if the salary increases seem to be higher than CPI now yeah that's just because we're playing catchup trying to take care of employees and and we have another round coming yes absolutely so okay you good for the moment yes okay Tracy what you got waiting for John's answers so then I can expand upon those off of what Scott asked okay I will just throw this out there too when we're talking about fund balance carryover when we are in a good position with reserves we can take a look at allocation of some of that if it has not been done already but I would prefer we take a look at those things for onetime Capital because if you start allocating those kind of things for recurring expenses you can get in trouble really really fast I think what you were getting as is maybe pick off a couple project maybe we can go back to that slide when John comes back because I think that's probably a discussion that all of us want to have is let's look at because let's look at that to see do we have some stuff in our Reserve funds that we can check off and start immediately moving these numbers back we want to spend more on Paving we want to spend yeah we want to spend more on Paving because catchup we want to spend more on sidewalks CU we're still play paying catchup but maybe this is uh some potential Reed uh Wayne as far as Tyler goes are we fully implemented into that now or where where are we in that process we we're HR Finance are are active and live we've still got to do utility building I think there's a couple of other elements out there the majority of the the day-to-day operations so the financial operations are in there as well as all of our HR do we know when it will be complete next year is January so we really won't so we really won't see those savings entirely well if we will because it's the work we're not paying work day we're paying Tyler so at the end of I think we've made the last workday payment all right so those savings it was a difference yeah okay he gave me a chart that has the differences in the funds the reason that we didn't put funds in there because like I was telling you they're they're there's a couple of them like one of them is 70% difference because we had FEMA payments so the one that was other required funds is 70% lower because our FEMA payments are gone so when you start looking at year to year typically what council's asked for is show me the Departments and how do the Departments change but not so much when they're clustered together by fund because you have these huge swings and you spend a lot of time talking about why is that 78% lower one of them 78% higher because we got a bunch of grant money that we put in there so we all the money that we got from the state and so you you see these extreme swings that that are fund based but typically councils want to know is the police department 200,000 more than it was last year or 100,000 that that's where we normally see them in that list none of them were more than 3% higher than they were last year because that was the cap we put on them so some of them are zero some of them flattened out but they're somewhere between zero and 3% of what they were last year by Department because we we stop that the increases that's why we're showing you the CIP that the capital is where you saw the the larger changes and projects was going back to Vice mayor's comments on you don't have to pay for that out of general fund you don't you if you have reserves if you feel comfortable at that level you could offset the one-time cost for Capital out of reserves if you would like to do something like that um I also know that our tax levy we generally reflect that at 95% of projections and that is to be conservative I know at times well at times just about every year I've seen that that'll will come in uh I think last year was 96.4 so I mean there there is some room and I understand we I could take 96.4% of this number but I also know that this number is not firm numbers until we have them in August so when we set the max millage rate just like in every year we've done in years past we're saying this is the most that will go but we're not done we're going to be sharpening our pencils we're going to be looking for ways to because uh if we end up at the end of the day exactly where we are today at the max millage rate we haven't tried John what you got for us uh yes sir um as reported by our Auditors um as part of the audit our total assigned un assigned fund balance at 93023 was 24.2 Million that's a little um under 39% of the what is that number again um $4.2 million so that's just a um hair under 39% and that's as of 93023 so that doesn't include the carryover from that previous budget year no no that is the carryover with the carryover that is with the carryover do we know what the carryover number is for 2023 what that number was um about two and a half that's another question so i' have to go get this year's budget and I so let me just speak for everybody I for just a second we don't want to put you on the spot brother if you need a break you got to go we can take breaks we're good this is this is important stuff so I can tell you in this year's budget fiscal year 25 we have used $3.2 million in that prior year appropriation um to fund the various programs services that um are part of that whether it's the sidewalk Street resurfacing some of done thata budget resolution yes sir some of our um capital projects for Parks streets Etc that was already hold those thoughts hold those thoughts for just one second I got to back you up for just a second walk me back through this a second so the Auditors reported 24.2 million as of September 30th of 23 that's correct which puts us at 39% just under yes sir okay that's the same date I I guess in my brain that's the end of last the fiscal year last year usually the usually the carryover so are they backing up the carryover calculations because normally that happens after the end of the year right cuz we're still closing things out audit it and then but they go back to that date with the number we don't know that number several months later correct they back that up and and zero line that out okay that's what I wanted to know and so that's at about 39% I got on that what number are you using to project carryover for this fiscal year we're in now I we have quite a few expenditures that don't hit until the end of September Debt Service Etc so at this point in time I'm not projecting any carry forward okay so we're expecting zero some of it is we in the past remember we we were allocating salary savings yeah to do projects and and we're down like I said down to 10 vacancies police is is full through training and we've I think some of you have told that story we we had a payroll of over 500 people for the first time ever of our 500 employees so we benefit of of the department heads the the good Chiefs that have kept their people their Department's full and the HR people now that are here but we don't have Sal the benefit of not having salary savings is we got good employees but we don't have as much extra money so we've removed all salary savings projections from this budget there's there is no salary Savings in next year's proposed budget okay okay and John one more question in regards that you said we're 24.2 million approximately 39% minus the 3 million or so that you said we appropriated this year so that that drops that 39% probably closer to the 35 3 that's correct 6 range with everything that we've done the last few years and um your auditor made sure to point this out in 20 U 21 we were at 59.5% of reserves 22 46.8% of reserves and we were 40.8 before based on last year's budget numbers so we're at 39% based on next year's budget we've utilized the significant amount of that to well I think what you're alluding to is and typically speaking when we have a budget overage at the end of the year because we've managed our money properly yeah we that money will sit there and then we go into a budget cycle and decide how to spend it next year so you got an overage last year and you're we're figuring out how to spend it next year we had issues we needed taken care of now because of hurricanes because of Roads not being taken care of sidewalks not being taken care of we took a lot of that money and spent it this year because the need exists now so what we've normally done where you see money that's left over from last year you can allocate towards next year some of it's there but a lot of it was already spent by this Council through budget resolution to go take care of those needs right now because our people were ready to do it and they did it well I just want to make sure we don't keep ratcheting that down as we go along because absolutely you're knocking down those numbers slowly but surely and then all of a sudden we're going to wake up one day and we're under 30% we're going to be like whoa you know he he won't support transferring the money if it's going to put us below the department that's what I mean we don't want to get there so we got to maintain a comfortable absolutely for maintaining a 30 to 35% Reserve because what we had after major hurricanes two years ago was weeks of recovery and I go to Florida Le of cities talking to cities that had to borrow money that went months into recovery and and I think we're still in that recovery from a couple years ago I think what what I heard you guys asking just make sure we're answering your questions correctly is that so we we do have reserves even with those expenditures above what you've considered safe the 30% or so range so there's there's an amount of money that we expect to have in reserves that could be used without putting you in trouble where we have what we have different now than in the past is we have executed way better on the budget you gave us so I've worked in places where if you showed up and spent 85% of your budget you get yelled at why did we budget for that why did we tax people for that if you can't if you have it you should be doing something for your people with it and and we were not we were not executing the capital under the prior group we are now executing the capital in fact the reason for the sidewalks is we we told these guys execute and they spent everything we had in sidewalk repairs in the first six months of the year uh putting people like this in charge of your construction projects got your construction projects done so what they're looking at is okay we're now we're spending everything we've got the employees are here so we don't have that's where your money left over at the end of year is unfinished construction and and vacancies and staff and we're just not going to we're not going to transfer as much over this year we're going to execute your budget a lot better which from a from a public standpoint is a good thing we we what we have taken in as Revenue we have spent on Services back for them instead of sitting on it and putting it away uh but we still maintain revenues or Reserves at a level that's safe for us if we get a double hurricane again and to the point where there may be as you guys guys talk a possibility for you to do take some of that money and maybe do one of the projects with it or something okay is that correct John yes sir the our policy is a 30 to 35% fund balance so that means based on next year's budget our fund balance is supposed to be$ 18.4 to$ 21.4 million this year alone we've had four major or two major items that come up that we've utilized this fund balance of the 20 um 4 million City Center um Parks Parks you know the the whole pdh vac and additional money for streets and sidewalks so to truly tell you where we are from that 24.2 to make sure that we're within that Target I would need some time to go through and look at the um that's fine and that's the challenge that I want to give to staff tonight I think that's where Scott's going with it when his initial comments is we've got dollars out there that we can use for things now that instead of sitting and waiting and then they become available uh and we know what they are next year we want to be able to get things done now you're talking about spending more on sidewalks spending more on Paving and that's a source of funding that's available to us now and if we don't have to increase the millage rate as much uh whatever that might be and even if there's some more things that need to be done we we have I I'm all for it whatever makes a difference in this community with infrastructure bring it to us let's let's do it let's talk about it but uh what I would like is Council has set a Max millage tonight that makes sense knowing that we have this ability uh and and likely we have similar conversations every year and Wayne and his staff always go back every year and sharpen their pencils a little bit this might be a big difference this might be a little difference but whatever it is uh it would be nice if we can uh uh see what that is and push the needle a little bit and actually get more things done all right so John do you have the do you know what the carry over was for last year what that amount was um I have it here but I would have to go and look at the detail of everything that it was so I need 20 minutes and I apologize because I probably should have given you more heads up on that I I thought it was maybe a little bit easier to to identify that tell you what we've used because so let me just so here here's here's where I why I'm asking this a couple million doll when I got on City Council in 2014 we had a a large history of extremely high Reserve funds correct every year the auditor stands before us and gives us that number the gfoa recommendation of about 16.8 is that right about 16.8 16.6 16% that's what the gfoa recommends we as a council enacted a working policy to say Hey listen we shouldn't we don't need Reserve funds up in the 50 percentiles cuz many times we were way over 50s so in 2020 in 2014 we enacted this working policy and said you know what we're a Coastal Community how do we feel about we'll just double the gfoa recommendation so about 32% is was the concept and the idea but it seemed like and by the way I applaud the department heads and the and the city staff I truly do to to be able to put put together a working budget every year and come in under the budget that's fabulous that helps us get more done for the city every year is a little different right the econom is different inflation's different whatever all those variables are there's differences every year and that's our job as the elected body to say hey this is one of those years we can get more done this is one of those years we tighten the belt so forth and so on so what the reason I'm asking you these questions and I hope you know truly that I'm not trying to put you on the spot is in my mind I'm trying to better understand where were we last year where are we in our current year budget are we in trouble are the department heads doing a good job are we I know you I know it's a safe thing for you to say that you don't anticipate any carryover but the history for the last 10 years has been that there will be carryover funds there will be some and I and I get that helps us get capital projects D the only exception to that is if something has gone wrong and I haven't seen it anything in your quarterly budget briefings to show that hey we're in trouble revenues didn't come in and expenses are super high over here and we're we're going to we're going to fall short this year we're going to have to save ourselves out of Reserve so I'm not hearing that I don't see that so that's why I'm trying to get some of these numbers and get some ideas and I get that we don't have all the information like it's it's a huge thing I know we I just feel like it was Deja Vu we were up here talking about the intergovernmental funds you know here we are in a municipal government trying to make respons decisions we don't even know what those State numbers are yet we we're projecting flat so I can tell you the two that we've gotten one was high one was low there were zero there you go right so I I mean you know so and I'm not trying to be you know um one of your projections was lower um no no we got the state revenue in one was high one was low they netted to zero so it was a net increase right so and I'm not trying to you know be standoffish on this cuz I was very clear when I said unassigned assigned fund balance we have um restricted and committed fund balance you know so you know again I'm reading right off of what the auditor presented we're talking about it's 36 and like I said I can tell you right now that since we adopted the budget last year we've yall have approved budget Amendments of just under $9 million in Prior year Appropriations for various things that were carryovers Etc so that's why I just to make sure that I'm answering answering your question properly between what was restricted committed assigned as that tell you exactly what I think this speaks to the importance of what Scott already said about having last year's numbers side by side in the presentation which this is actually still my favorite uh PowerPoint that's been presented in my time on Council as far as having a lot of great detail but so I shouldn't have or not that I shouldn't have to ask the question but it would be easier if I could look next to intergovernmental Revenue here on this slide on page 11 and see what that number was last year cuz I'm understanding now that number is flat from last year is there any chance at all that number goes down I've only seen that occur one time in my career and that was in 2020 after Co hit okay due to the municipal sales tax revenue that shared by the state when that plummeted that's the only time it it typically goes up with CPI you know so you know I've always been asked to keep it flat when I'm sitting standing before you during this meeting and then bringing what the true number might come in in mid August when I come into the first public and I have no issue that because the last thing that I want to do from my seat is to sit here and set a Max millage that puts us in a bad position to where we don't have the revenue and then we have to make cuts to things we don't want to make cuts to so I have no issue with that approach um I just it's important to know what we did last year and this year what we're looking at side by side for sure and some of the intergovernmental Revenue last year in the general fund was also you know prior year hurricane money so you know because that's intergovernmental so you know we had you know these last two years due to Hurricane Ian and nle I mean that just creates you know an extra level of um fun when doing a you know comparison of budgets by the way first of all don't mention the HW we don't want to we don't want to hear the HW in jinx this but keep in mind what we're talking about now and setting a Max millage rate is based on the information we have we will accumulate a lot more information in August and our first reading uh of the budget is September 4th on the note of information if I may M um I know 70% of our homes are homesteaded um another slide that I would like to see is a breakdown of residential income um Revenue from properties that are homesteaded versus ones that aren't versus commercial um I think that's important to have that breakdown as to how much of our revenues that come in actual dollars not not percentages not you know Parcels but actual dollars I'd like to have that information I'd also be very curious just to know how many Parcels paid no uh tax because I know that Wayne's brought up we have a few of those in the city and I I don't know what that number number is I know I've seen it once before in a presentation I'd like to see that again as well well there are various reasons for that though I understand that is not something that I get standard I would have to request that from the property appraiser directly which isn't an issue you'd probably be getting last year's numbers not this year's projections because I don't think they'd have those numbers that's correct they don't have everything finalized yet well and and if that's not but all the same give us those numbers will give us a general idea if you remember I got something very similar to that last yeah all right so so help us go back and do some basic math here for a second can you go back to the part of the presentation that shows us or Wayne maybe maybe if it's you that wants to do it that shows us our one-time Capital expenditures that we're trying to produce out of this proposed budget next slide I think you said it was around five a little over five million 5.3 million my estimate out of that by just going down through the list that was in the PowerPoint about 5.3 million or general fund and the top the outlay is about 3 million okay and those are those are onetime correct deals non okay so God I hope Cambridge Canal is one time all right 5.3 million and John if we if if I know this is this is uh probably putting you on the spot with with those numbers but like if if we want to take another let's say 650,000 out of current Reserve funds does that put us in any Jeopardy of not being in our policy I mean that's where I would need to go and again we've used the 9 million see which pocket it came out of I mean if if we took a million dollars out where would we be they know I mean those are those are some numbers go right off the cuff the answer is no okay because that would take us at 36.4 n million um just down to 37 so I'm well within the range that I gave you of 18.4 to 21.4 okay so 18.4 in reserves puts us at what percent 30 30% you said oh yeah 30 I already did that math I'm getting ready to do yes 30% I already did that all right okay and so is help us so so I think we see the intent I if you can say do you want the what what level of Reserve are you comfortable with right I'll get him to go back and calculate what the difference is between what we expect to have and where you're comfortable and that'll be the amount of money we can say we can pull that and pay for some of these projects with it and then that you can take from millage if you would prefer well I would not I mean so my thought Council this is just for us is look the residents are getting hammered with home insurance rate increases inflation sucks sometimes we've got to look at things that maybe we wouldn't ordinarily do without getting ourselves in trouble I think we may be in a position where we can do that this year with these onetime expenditures the gfoa and the Auditors recommend 16.8 I'm not I'm not advocating to go anywhere close to that by the way that's what Orman stays at as a practice just so you know that is their and many times I think they've actually been under that but that's their practice so I'm not advocating us to do that I certainly am not advocating that but we have a working policy it is a flexible policy it is our policy we know what the gfoa recommendation is that keeps us in a good decision-making process and so all I'm asking for here is an idea from staff give us give us some ideas that are that are somewhat flexible comfortable might be out of the norm because of the current economic situation that our residents are in this year we we we think that there's we there's a very strong likelihood that Federal politics change in the recent months to come that things things change we know that we see that I mean presidential races have economic impacts on all of us including the municipality so um we don't know what those are going to be but for right now in this moment in time I want to have these discussions with our one-time expenditures because that's an appropriate thing to do that that's what that money is there for to give us those kind of flexibilities especially with our onetime purchases the mayor said it perfectly these aren't even discussions to have with reoccurring cost absolutely not there's where you get into real trouble and that's not what I'm looking to do so and we are definitely not looking to not do any of these things because they're all important they're all important and and I and I can't stress enough we delayed some of these things way too long I really appreciate Wayne that you listed in here all of the things our staff has done to find savings these are Big number savings and these always help but that's what's expected you know so kudos to them for sure keep up the good work on that always be looking for that I can't stress the importance of that enough that's awesome that allows us to do more for our residents do more for our employees and that's really what we want to do but we're going to squeeze every drop out of it that we possibly ever can so so as a course of action we need to come to a consensus on the max millage tonight knowing that we've got a lot of questions that need answered would we be able to have at least have the information for us uh by the August 6th council meeting a lot of these things are just reference points you have the information are you going to be capable of functioning here on your ankle um so if you're asking to postpone this meeting until no not no Max I said at all just making sure because it's due August 4th no if he whatever they said tonight we'll set a Max mill rate tonight but what I'm talking about is uh we're looking for opportunities improve on that and and and get things done so we've asked questions obviously we don't have all that information uh maybe we can share that as part as the city manager comments at the August 6th meeting and then we have our workshop at the end of August uh I think we can get you the information well before the six if you'd like to talk about only is John's having a little doctor thing and I just wanted to make sure he would be here to help answer questions on August 6 I think you I can be here August 6 okay and if you do that instead I don't want to wait for the information but I do want to have an opportunity to talk about it uh just to make sure that we've all processed it uh the August 6th agenda is relatively light there's some second reading items and you have the uh the the one time the the temporary use down at Riverwalk for the food truck court is probably the only discussion item there's consent items and then there's second readings and that so it's not it's not an overly heavy item if you'd like us to do it on the six if you'd rather us wait till the workshop we can do that too whatever no I just want make sure we have the information by the 6 so if we have any questions about that information we can run through them real quick on the 6th but then we'll have that to be able to process because we also know that no matter what you give us information wise staff's still got a lot of work to do before uh the next workshop at the end of the month we can get you that ahead of time we'll put an item on the agenda just called budget discussion and let you tell us direction from there very good any other comments or questions on the uh uh topic of uh budget right now before we move on to the next item well mayor like you know that we're trying to give him things to do and everything and we never really were clear are we staying in our 30 to 35% parameter for the reserves because I'd like to be at the upper end of that not the low end I I think we well that's where we've got to have the answer but my intention is to be on the upper end as well we got to know what those numbers are before we can CU it the old saving for a rainy day our rainy days are coming and we can't predict if we're going to have a hurricane or not I mean we are for me personally forever it's worth I I share with Drew I want to be no lower than 33% like like that that's a third of the budget and that's a pretty hard line with me as far as being willing and again we are we we all unanimously seem to understand one time expenses here yeah I get that um so can we do that work tonight I mean are we not able to get some of those answers in work tonight they just left because I gave them exactly what you asked so they're working on it as we speak okay so as a goal let's see what we can do at the 33% unincumbered Mark yep okay and let bring that information back to us on August 6th or before so that we can discuss on August 6th so we can't get that tonight is what you're saying that's what we're saying okay yeah I I need to make sure that when I tell you a number that I didn't put something in the wrong pot because then that will sway the percentage Yeah I want to see the 35 number not 33 Okay and we can discuss that yeah all right with that uh on the topic of the budget would anyone here care to speak to the item there being none we will move on to item five item five in the budget the recommended motion is to approve the maximum operating millage rate uh first reading will occur on September 4th at 5:30 p.m. final hearing of the budget September 18th at 5:30 p.m. uh with that the recommendation of staff is at 4.99 N9 and I would entertain a motion at this point I'll motion to set the max millage rate at 4 9999 there a second guys that's a that's a Max that's a Max can I get a second we don't know it's kind of hard to say we're going to cut so much as a dollar until we know it's available correct that's the problem yeah and that's that's more my concern uh yeah I'll second it we have a motion proper second the item is open on the floor for discussion to set the maximum mill rate at 4.99 99 which is 8.38% above roll back comments questions counsel I I had one more comment I was going to make when we're still doing the budget I'll make it now because it's still all this applies to each other you know Wayne's first slide here that he had on his presentation talks about not having a reduction in service which none of us want none of us want to reduce services but when you add two community service officers when you add a division Chief an engineer manager when you do additional sidewalk repairs that's not keeping the same level of service that's improving the services and I think residents in Port Orange I think from from the what I hear from the feedback I get they don't mind as long as they feel like they're getting something for what they're paying for right and so while the budget is higher this year we've seen staff come up with great Innovations and and a lot of them you know self- started right we've seen the money that's been put to use be put to use in really wise ways and efficient ways and then we're getting asked for additional things to provide additional services to our residents at least for me anytime I want to know I'm getting something for what I'm paying for um I I'm not going to support a$ 499999 as a final millage especially what we discussed today because I think Scott's brought up a great Point we've already found $200,000 in the elevator which you is something I felt very strongly about um but I will support the max because I trust that staff's going to go back and and they're going to find answers to those you found $200,000 in an I didn't find it no actually Tom and Robin found it I just suggested we don't fix both of them and they found a way to fix both of them for half the cost so there you go that's why we keep asking questions Tracy what you got now I have to agree with Council and what councilman Foley just said I mean we we set the max as the Max and we hope that everybody will come back numbers coming from the state that are better than being flat and that we can drive this down we we usually have and usually will we have done that in the past and I think that we were all agreed on that absolutely we we're just starting Scott no I I don't have anything else group no I I'm I'm good okay anyone from the public on setting the max millage rate at 4.99 N9 anyone like to speak come on back to us final comments councel there being none call the rooll councilman Foley yes councilman grubs yes councilman Bastion yes vice mayor sner no mayor Bernett no pass 32 just want to remind everybody we are going to have another workshop at the end of August uh but the actual budget hearings will occur on September 4th that is a a Wednesday and SE September 18th also a Wednesday both of those times at 5:30 here in city council chambers Wayne any other business I thought wanted the dates up this just to make sure that I'm posting for the trim notice also the um Geo bond millit rate of the. 1720 and can you move it all the way forward to the last slide that shows the dates yes sir we you need a motion on the go Bond yes please okay can see that can I see that number1 720 is that the motion you're about to make Drew yeah I I'll motion to keep it at our current rate at at the proposed rate of7 yes second we have a motion proper second on the go Bond Council comments anyone here care to speak to the item none back to us final comments call the rooll councilman poy yes councilman grubs yes councilman Bastion yes vice mayor skner yes mayor Bernett yes 5 upcoming meeting CRA budgets uh will be incorporated in the council meeting on Tuesday August 6th at 6:30 uh as mentioned before the public hearings September 4th and September 18th here at 5:30 we'll start an hour uh earlier than we normally do for Council meetings on both of those and like I said those are Standalone meetings and they will be held here on on Wednesdays any other business come before us this evening not all right we'll see you all next week for