welcome in we're going call the meeting of the Planning Commission for January 25th 2024 to order please stand for the pledge a moment of silence I pled aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all amen seconds did you count can I get a roll call please Stan Schmidt yes Scott Stager yes Mark bowling Maria Mills Bennett here Bo bofam I'm here Lance green here Thomas Jordan here I will uh take a consideration a minut make a motion to approve the minutes I a roll call Stan Schmidt yes Scott Stager yes Mark bowling yes Maria Mills Bennett yes Bo bof yes Lance green yes Thomas Jordan yes hi everyone it's nice to have people last time we were empty um little housekeeping for you tonight we have two agenda items we will be opening those at the same time I will just be reading them to open both agenda items at the same time Planet commission we will make our motions at the end so that they can be voted on separately please when you come up to the podium well first we're going to have a presentation from the city then we'll have a presentation from the client Planning Commission comments and questions and then I will ask for public comment when you come up to the podium please state your name and your address you will have three minutes to speak when the buzzer goes off don't don't look at me cuz you will be done so 3 minutes that's all you get please make sure when you come up to the podium that you have something new to offer the conversation um we don't want a lot of repeat comments but we do take into consideration everything that's said when we are voting that being said M chairman yes quick question before we get going on the the first item for bids uh there's a section there where we are um changing the the the U zoning designation but there's also a policy uh change now does that have to be two items that we have to address we'll open that item but include the policy when we when we make the motion we have to include that policy in our motion not a separate motion no that's all I was asking so know the legal council want to join in and tell us do it um so first agenda item is large scale comprehensive plan Amendment hammock preserve case number cpam m-23 d001 and the second is PUD rezoning and hammock preserve plan unit development master development agreement and conceptual development plan case number p za- 23-7 penny good evening Penelope Cruz planning so the subject property um consists of three Parcels located on the North and South sides of meline Avenue and east of Williamson Boulevard as you can see on the location map these Parcels have been identified as parcel one two and three for ease of discussion um the subject property is currently undeveloped and used for agricultural operations with open pastures forested Uplands forested Wetlands several drainage ditches and ponds in the b19 canal parcel one was previously approved in 2006 for 500 52 unit multif family development named Villa Park parcel 2 was previously approved in 2006 for a 37 unit single family subdivision both of those development plans expired prior prior ten development commencing so the two applications um that are currently under review for the proposed site are the our comprehensive plan amendment of rezoning and and PUD application the First Amendment um the applicant is requesting the comprehensive plan amendment to amend the future land use map to change the future land use designation of 5.2 Acres on parcel one from Urban medium density residential to Commercial and to change the future land use designation on parcel 2 which is an overall 32.4 acre parcel from Suburban residential to 29.9 Acres of that parcel going to Urban medium density residential and 2.5 acres of that partial going going to commercial as was previously mentioned um as part of the comprehensive plan Amendment there is a proposed future land use element text amendment that would limit development so that all the residential units would be required to be clustered on parcel one with a maximum of 873 residential units and also limit the neighborhood commercial uses on parcel 1 and two to 40,000 square ft with no more than 10,000 square feet of that being allowed on parcel 2 the proposed comprehensive plan Amendment does not increase the number of dwelling units allowed on the subject property but it would increase the square footage of commercial uses to allow for the 40,000 square ft um at a designated commercial node so while the commercial uses are generally located at an intersection node according to the applicant the proposed commercial located on the south side of melin Avenue is placed in a location to allow pass by trips for residents who will stop on their way to and from their houses for traditional neighborhood commercial uses to serve that general area the areas surrounding the site including the southeast corner of Williamson Boulevard and mad meline Avenue where commercial uses would typically be located at an intersection node is already developed for residential uses so by providing the neighborhood commercial uses near this node the proposed development will provide for the potential for shorter vehicle trips to existing residents the proposed future land use amendment is compatible with the surrounding area and generally consistent with the goals objectives and policies of the city's comprehensive plan the proposed designations meet the locational criteria of the subject and the subject property is located along an arterial Corridor near the intersection of two arterial roads utility infrastructure already exists in the area and adequate capacity exists for portable water sewer schools and solid ways to accommodate the proposed amendment as for traffic roadway segments above current capacity were identified and as with all development any future site development proposals for the property will be subject to concurrency regulations requiring adequate public facilities be provided or mitigated um at the time actual development is proposed so the second item on the agenda is the request from the applicant to rezone 32.4 Acres from R8 SF to plan unit development and to establish the hammock preserve Master development agreement and conceptual development plan for the overall 149. 2 Acre Site the overall 140 49.2 Acres site um of that 11 16.8 acres is already zoned PUD but it does not have an active Master development agreement for it so if the resoning and the Pud Master development agreement and conceptual development agreement are approved it would set up the development parameters for mixed use project that consists of 873 multif family units clustered onto parcel one which would allow for increased open space preservation of natural areas and drainage on Parcels 2 and three as proposed the multif family buildings on parcel one will be a maximum of 65 ft tall except for any portion of the building located within 100 ft of the Pud boundary in which case those that part of the building would be limited to a 45 ft height it would also allow for 40,000 squ ft of commercial square footage distributed between Parcels 1 and two with a maximum of 10,000 square ft of that south of Madeline Avenue um as proposed the commercial buildings would be a maximum of 45 45 feet in height on parcel one and 25 ft in height in parcel 2 um the proposed neighborhood commercial uses that would be allowed are listed in the master development agreement and they were also listed on page four of the staff report the proposed roadway connections um that are shown in the on the concept plan would um be at mateline Avenue and Williamson Boulevard a driveway stub out to the adjacent vacant commercial property at the northeast corner of meline Avenue in Williamson Boulevard would also be required for um a future internal connection between two the two commercial properties at the time of development and based on the anticipated traffic entering and exiting the proposed PUD a designated left and right turn lanane are anticipated at all driveways onto the site however final design of driveways for the Pud and turn Lanes will be reviewed and approved through vucha County through their driveway permitting process um um as those roadways that those driveways would access are belusa County maintained roadways if you can see here where the the pink is on the graphic on the screen the Pud is set up to comply with the city's parking requirements in the Land Development code for the multif family use and the commercial uses the roadway Network within the Pud would consist of private roads or access drives and the property owner would be required to maintain those roadways the MDA also requires an 8ft wide sidewalk to be constructed along Williamson Boulevard and the north side of meline Avenue a 5ft wide sidewalk along the south side of meline Avenue along with connections into the development and the internal sidewalk Network would also be required for parcel one to connect all the multifam to the commercial development as stated in the master development agreement the Pud would comply with all of the city City's landscape and tree preservation requirements um and at the time of a site plan subm site plan submitt there would be a formal review of that landscaping and tree preservation to verify that compliance the concept plan in the MDA required the minimum 15% of the PD be set aside for protecting existing trees um as well as the minimum 60% of open space and 20% of common open space the MDA also requires a 20ft perimeter landscape buffer adjacent to existing residential subdivisions a 50-ft landscape buffer along Williamson Boulevard and along the east side of parcel 3 which is this long parcel here so this side here and a 35 foot landscape buer along meline Avenue the proposed dimensional requirements for the Pud are generally consistent with those of conventional zoning districts that would allow for the proposed uses in the Pud except for the height which we'll discuss um in a bit so we're going to talk about drainage for a little bit the three Parcels that are current um that are part of the Pud are currently hydraulically connected to the b19 canal and they also assist with the routing of adjacent storm water that flows through the property to the b19 canal currently storm water from parcel one is retained on site in existing wetlands and ponds or it's conveyed by pipes under mateline Avenue to exist to the existing pond on parcel 2 or to the Pelican Bay drainage stitch on the north side of parcel one ultimately just discharging into the b19 canal the pond on parcel 2 holds storm water from parcel 1 and two and along the east side of parcel 2 is the b19 canal but based on the surveys um provided there are no there's no Direct outfall on parcel to to the b19 canal however during uh storm events beyond the 100-year storm event something similar to like an Ian event um there would be Overland drainage from parcel 2 into the b19 canal the b19 canal runs runs along the west side of parcel 3 along with a series of ditches on the parcel 3 that convey storm water from adjacent subdivisions to the b19 canal and based on the survey there's no outfall from parcel 3 to the b19 Canal or under meline Avenue to parcel 2 however since parcel 3 is lower than the surrounding Development Area when the b19 canal overflows its top of Bank water stages onto parcel 3 so those are the current conditions get ahead of myself the proposed um drainage infrastructure which you can kind of see here in the concept plan to the right um would be provided as generally depicted here on this concept plan it's proposed to span the three Parcels which are located within flood zone AE and a designated floodway parcel one would include a network of ponds wetlands and existing drainage canals or ditches that would be designed to treat and attenuate the runoff um and facilitate that water management and mitigation the interconnected ponds on parcel one would treat runoff before discharging into a centralized existing wetland discharging into that Wetland would help maintain the water quality and contribute to the Wetland hydration and it's a new type of um it's a storm water design that we're starting to see a lot more of um in the city and in throughout Florida in addition storm water would be discharged to the Pelican Bay ditch at the North End of parcel 1 which eventually outfalls into the b19 canal the concept plan also includes compensatory storage ponds on parcel 2 2 and three according to the project engineer the compens compensating storage ponds are strategically positioned to mitigate or offset the effects of impacts of development on parcel one and two that require fill to be added within the flood plane that compensating storage ponds are used to balance the loss of flood storage capacity when fill or structures are placed within the flood plane if the Pud is approved formal engineer drawing plans would be required and submitted to the city and go through the city's staff development Review Committee process um and in addition to meeting all the requirements of the Land Development code the storm water system would be required to meet the requirements of the St John's River Water Management District and there could possibly be permitting required through FEMA according to the traffic memo provided by the applicant if the Pud is developed at the maximum density and intensity allowed it would generate fewer pm peak hour trips but more daily trips than if the three Parcels were developed under the maximum residential density currently Allowed by the current future land use designations the distribution of the traffic to and from the site is estimated to split with approximately 55% using Williamson Boulevard 37% going north 18% going south um and about 45% using meline Avenue the staff report included a pretty lengthy list of possible future roadway improvements that may be needed to ensure adequate Transportation facilities as part of the development of the proposed PUD those improvements are listed on page 20 of the staff report they are subject to change based on analysis from a full traffic impact analysis at the time of specific development plan is proposed so it's not an official list of improvements but something that's already being looked at from the planning level at this point um to kind of plan that out before a specific development is approved so the Pud is only includes one uh requested deviation from the Land Development code and that's regarding Building height the Land Development code currently allows a maximum Building height of 45 ft for properties that are zoned with a conventional City multif Family zoning District um or the commercial zoning districts the MDA um has maximum Building height for the multifam uses that is 65 ft 100 ft from the boundary within the first 100 ft the MDA limits the maximum Building height to 45 ft which is consistent with what the Land Development code requires but then in the central part of the parcel allows for the height to go up to to 65 ft it also allows for a 45 ft height for commercial uses um in parcel one the commercial use in parcel 2 would be limited to 25t height so that's consistent with with code as well um based on the proposed setbacks in the MDA the current location of existing single family homes adjacent to the Pud um you can see here on this aerial graphic here um So based on that there's no existing single family home that would be closer than over 100 ft to a proposed multif family building with actual separation ranging from 130 ft to 22 25 ft according to the applicant the requested height allows for that clustering of the residential units on parcel one in a manner that allows for that preservation of large tracks of open space and storm water and Parcels 2 and three they proposed an architectural design that would be fully um Fly designed on all sides of the building to focus on functionality sustainability neutral colors and embellishments using the modern Coastal floor architectural style so I did just want to note for the record that the site has been um posted for public notice uh the signs were posted on September 1st 2023 as of um the date that this packet went out on January 19th staff received phone calls or office visits from 32 people uh requesting general information about the amendment um the concerns were generally focused around around density traffic and drainage and all these individuals that contacted the city were added to a list and have been notified of all public hearings the applicant also held a neighborhood meeting on October 2nd 2023 at the Riverside Pavilion and that was attended by approximately 65 people um so you know that was a lot of information so I'm just going to conclude now and just kind of try to summarize it um in a sentence or two as to what the main request is um so if I were to summarize the bottom line of what this request is um the applicant is not requesting to increase density Beyond what's already allowed on the property the main request going through the Pud is to be able to take that existing number of units that's already allowed and cluster it onto parcel one to be able to leave parcel two and three which is where what's adjacent to the existing Port Orange exist neighborhoods to leave those areas as as open space and drainage um and then the next uh request would be to add the 40,000 ft of commercial to an existing designated commercial node um so that is the request that is before you the applicant is here and would like to make a presentation and staff will be here to answer any questions you have as well any questions for Penny Stan I've got some questions with they're kind of in the weed so for right now I'll say no pass Scott good I'm good for now yeah so I've got a couple questions here so on parcel three are we saying they cannot build anything on parcel 3 or is it just saying that that's the plan that they no they cannot they the only thing that would be allowed on parcel 3 would be um preservation and drainage okay can you explain to me how that huge stretch of parcel 3 helps in drainage on Parcels one and two um I'd probably defer to the to the um engineer of record but um as we had generally kind of over went over the overview everything ultimately connects either directly to the b19 canal or through pipes to that north um Pelican Bay ditch and outfalls to b19 Canal so the drainage for all three areas would be designed to outfall to the b19 canal as it currently does okay um in the uh zoning resoning request so there was a list of Transportation Improvement specified MH but I'm confused because it has a whole list of improvements 13 of them and I'm trying to understand was the traffic design were the traffic levels determined based on these already being completed yeah that would be a build build out and this is a comprehensive list it's not a final official list you know that this is based on this preliminary zoning level design at theoretical Max what if the Pud is approved and you know and sight plans come in and say the development is less than what the theoretical taxes you know that that could impact that um also the timing there are some improvements that may already be completed by the time anything gets developed here like there's already um a plan for the widening of Williamson Boulevard um to the the designs are almost done I believe and to start construction in 20 by 2025 so some some of these improvements might already be done when something actually moves forward to development so it's a big comprehensive list of potential projects that could be needed to meet adequate public facilities but it's not an official finalist and it's based on theoretical Max development well and that's what I'm trying to figure out so you've got 13 projects here of turn lanes and widening and a and a and a was the bridge in there I don't remember so are we saying that at maximum build out we'd have to have all 13 of these items complete to match the numbers of for the transportation not necessarily what do this what does this list of 13 mean to me I think when the applicant comes up we'll let the traffic engineer kind of talk about it in a little bit more detail it is a global comprehensive list of it's kind of like a menu well I I I mean that's a nice list understand that do necessarily mean that all of them would be required it might be a combination of a few some might be already done so but I think and it's ultimately going to depend on what the the actual development plans are because they they might not build the maximum of what's proposed in the Pud um but I think the traffic engineer from the development team could probably answer that in a little bit more detail okay and do you want to address the question that I have about how we get how our our our Peak trips change and they go down M five fewer in the morning and a 109 fewer in the evening but then all of a sudden the daily trips jumped 1,200 Vehicles yeah so 1,200 trips I'm sorry I don't understand this math I can answer that okay um so the trip generation rates for multif family is lower than single family so when you're comparing the existing land use to the proposed there's a a pretty big chunk that's going from single family land use to to multif family and so the part of it is that the multif family generation rate is lower the other part of it is that when you're doing AM and PM analysis the um the pass by rates are included as part of that analysis like trips that are just naturally going when you've got mixed uses and and and when you're adding certain uses it's part of their natural trip to oh there's commercial here now so I can stop and get this on the way um so pass by trips are accounted for in the PM but it's not something something that's accounted for in when you do the tabulations for daily so that's why you see the daily is going up but the PM is going down because the daily The Daily doesn't include pass by trips it's just not part of the way the calculations are run interesting I know it's not a that's just that's the answer no I think it's magic actually but that's okay um Bippity bity yeah really and so could could you repeat real quick I maybe everybody else caught it but can you repeat the one slide you had with the road improvements that would be required for the access into parcel one parcel yeah parcel one yes please okay I don't I didn't list the road improvements but I just like labeled them yeah I saw the labels I and that's why I was curious about we're talking additional turn Lanes on meline I believe you said okay and that includes I guess right in from the west and then left in coming from the east on Madeline I mean I nothing's fully designed it's just a list of potential and I get that's where I'm kind of headed is I'm now I'm worried about I got people making left turns into the existing subdivisions now I've got somebody making left turns into a commercial development and left turns into a new development and then there there's I mean there's already an intersection just hold on so pardon there there is a light here yeah we're not seeing that we can't see the slide yet it's not up there yet oh they want the slide push the button oh sorry okay sorry there was a delay uh actually I think it was previous slide was yellow yeah no this one there you go yeah okay yep that's it so we got turned into parcel one and parcel two there at uh on melin is that tentative I mean that's that's a yeah I mean that's just an estimate based on you know we don't know what ultimately at the end of the day vucha county is going to have to it's they're they're the maintaining agency we're just saying based on the number of theoretical maximum trips the code would require turn Lanes got it and the same thing on Williamson on so on the two-lane road there that we currently have we're talking about two access points into parcel one possibly that's what's proposed in the zoning document it still would it would ultimately have to be approved and permitted through Valia County driveway yeah I understand I mean that's always kind of one of the situations we have to deal with we're we're guessing at what they're going to prove the other thing just to I guess to add to that um that thought is um you know previously there was a development approved here and here and if the if if you think about these Parcels not as part of a unified PUD but as you know using the conventional zoning you know somebody could develop this property and have all the access points that are that are allowed by code they could develop this property separately um rather than having it mostly open space and somebody could actually develop this parcel 3 just like Sunset Cove just going right up here and you'd have another cut right here so it's just something to think about it there could be by conventional zoning even more cuts on I understand I know we've been there before with this kind of situation and hopefully Williamson will be widened by the time any of this is even yeah I mean we got good news about that you know not that long ago so yeah sure you're good I'm good for now yeah thanks I appreciate that for now just a quick one is that CTS and swes it varies yeah pipes yeah there's nothing there now where there's a lot of places where there's things par one oh no there's pipes there's there's ditches there's canals there's lots of there's lots of drainage going on right now yeah okay okay me to open your presentation we'll hear presentation from the applicant is this you can figure out I'll figure I'm sure we'll figure it out here let's see all right uh good evening Madam chair members of the commission for the record Mark Watts with the law firm of C Cole uh my address is 231 North Woodland Boulevard D Land from the other other office some cop coal across the the county um I've got a handful of folks here with me this evening um hopefully to answer the questions that You' started to raise and I'm sure that will come up during the course of the conversation tonight um we've got Jessica gal who's also with cob Cole um Chris roelly and Dwight Durant with Zev Cohen and Associates are here to kind of talk about some of the drainage questions that I'm sure not to interrupt you I'm sorry he doesn't get a timer and uh Sans Lasser with Lasser Transportation group our traffic consultant that's working on on it so um Penny did a very thorough con uh presentation so I'm not going to I'm going to do our best to kind of go through our presentation and not repeat some of the stuff that that she's already covered but um but I do want to to talk a little bit about um you this is a project that we've been working on for a number of years now and let me make sure I've got this set up so that I can toggle okay there we go all right so um this is the hammock preserve project is what we're referring to it as and um like I said we've been working on it for several years with um the crossy family who's the the current property owner and you know it's interesting going back and just giving you a little bit of personal history on this um you know the crossy family I think most of you are aware of the length of time they've been in in the Port Orange area and they've worked with the city very successfully the county very successfully to to plan both for development and for the infrastructure that goes along with it um through the years my my personal tie to it I remember being about eight or 10 years old sitting around the table with my dad and you know he was an land use attorney as well and worked on this property called the cousins estate which is what ultimately the crossy family ended up purchasing and he was just talking about the cousins and all this property they had and I thought that's fantastic we have family with land um and little did I know that wasn't my family but um in any event you know the the crossies I think have done something that has been very favorable for the the city of Port Orange um and this area of bluch County for a long time um their history is working with the community and with the um local governments in the area it's to plan not only for what the land will become but also for the infrastructure that is necessary to support it and these are just some of the examples that I wanted to kind of pull back up here of things that that we've worked collaboratively on Through The Years Williamson Boulevard um the extension from bevel down into Port Orange is part of uh comes through the the cross e what was originally the cross se's property uh it was something they worked on with the county and with the city to not only establish the right of way but ultimately construct as well um the U PCA District when I was first coming back to this area in the early 2000s the PCA District was one of the models in the state for how you appropriately plan for the growth and development of your community laying out the mix of uses laying out the infrastructure and the corridors necessary to sustain the development of the property and the provision of the infrastructure at the same time um that's you know as most of you know been very successful most of the land west of of 95 along Williamson Williamson itself uh the employment centers that are there carassi Park um are all part of the planning effort that came from that and now we've are continuing to extend that we have madelin the planned extension eventually of meline across Williamson over I9 5 and ultimately able to connect over to um smoka Farms Road so what we're here tonight to talk about is you know what we set as the maximums for uh the development of the property that we're talking about and it's not we're not here asking you to approve construction of all of it right now U that's not the decision that you're we'll ask you to make it's work with us to plan the you what will occur and if you'll look through the materials that you have in your staff presentation and and in the development agreement we're not asking for any exceptions to planning for the traffic planning for the school capacity planning for the storm water all of your existing regulations and all of the processes that follow zoning will be required to go through just like anybody else well and so that sort of gets Mr Jordan to some of your questions about the list which I'm sure we'll talk about in you know more detail as we go forward but those are the types of things will we are required to look at in more detail as we move forward as we ref define the phases of development and things of that nature so I want to just emphasize that you know one of the things we're not here to say is we want to we want to build 873 units and 40,000 square ft of commercial next week um this is a plan that we envision you know being implemented over a 5 to 10 year period so this is something that would occur gradually in phases as we move forward but we think it's a responsible way to develop these particular Parcels so again um just you know most of this has already been covered um there are three Parcels totaling just under 150 acres total within the footprint and right now I'm looking at my notes and I had to skip on all these so I'm going to just kind of skip ahead on some of these and get to this one um so as we've talked about the real reason we're going through the process here here is we think the better approach and we think the approach that's actually supported by the policies in your comprehensive plan is not to continue kind of a Suburban development pattern on all of this I mean you've seen what's around this site you see you know kind of the standard you know residential neighborhoods and everything else and that's good we we we know that that's a good component of our community but your comp plan actually supports a mix of of of types and opportunities within your community and so looking at the location of this and the b19 canal and The prominent location of that adjacent to the property we came up with came to the conclusion and started working with your staff that the appropriate and responsible way to approach this is leave the areas adjacent to the canal undeveloped let them serve storm water uh serve as storm water areas let them serve as areas that can accommodate an overflowing Canal at times if it needs that space uh can have those additional storm water areas there and cluster uh the development on partial one adjacent to that corner of two of your major you know Transportation corridors so with that I'm going to ask oh I've got one more that's an important one too um so this is that plan and I think the thing that jumps out at me when I look at this and when we've had meetings and we've talked about you know kind of what this plan represents and what these colors on this plan represent and Penny mentioned that you know we're required to have at least 60% of the overall property kept in open space when we're going through a PUD process if you look at the colors here and just you kind of keep it down to that level of Simplicity what you see in blue and green are the areas that are storm water or preservation the areas that you're through this approach clustering the development intensity on again we're not increasing that residential intensity at all but we're clustering it in the areas that are yellow so we're taking everything that could cover all of the area that is blue and green and yellow and red and we're putting it just in the areas that are yellow red or there's a little little tiny bit of Orange right down here for a community park and Neighborhood Center type thing for the for the development and so um again I think this is you know kind of along the lines of what your comp plan very specifically encourages to happen particularly at locations like this in in t in the city and I think this is a very responsible way to develop it particularly in the location that you've got with the b19 canal and everything running in the area so with that I'm G to ask Jessica to step up for a minute walk through a little bit of the detail with regard to the actual development criteria and then we'll get into our uh technical experts with the with the storm water and traffic thank you good evening everyone Jessica G Copco Law Firm 149 South Ridgewood Avenue the Daytona office to balance Mark um and Port Orange resident I actually live off of mateline and Clyde so close to my heart here and a really exciting project and I'm going to learn how to use the arrows there we go um so as Mark said we're in the zoning phase here we don't have detailed architectural for what the commercial multif family buildings could look like um but something that was really important during review and discussions with residents and with staff is give us an outline of the quality of development you're hoping to achieve an idea of what it could look like so that when the project comes in we have a measure of we want this caliber we want this quality here are the goals of the development and so this is something our architectural team put together there are two more slides will show you that have a little um bit more realtime examples but this is the vision for the site if you will kind of the Touchstone of how it will be developed and so they've taken a lot of time to put together this Vision book that outlines a coastal feel for the architecture but a simplified building um that has a lot of open space lighting Shadow lines built in and integrated so that we're really protecting and preserving the open space within the community and making that the focal point so you've got some commercial that creates this livable space where you can pop out of the apartments and go grab dinner with a friend um and then you have these wide expanses of green and open areas behind you that you're you're enjoying you've got huge Vistas in the the project so you can see those and appreciate the natural beauty of Florida and so that's the general touchstones we have um this slide I think was in Penny's presentation materials as well that's the general feel the modern Coastal and so this was to give an idea of you know how much glazing are we going to have is there going to be a lot of glass a lot of Windows what what are potential roof lines looking like what materials and color palettes might we see and so those have been outlined here as well you can see very neutral um style architecture that kind of brings up the natural areas around it this is an example of what the commercial areas could look like Penny had some real-time examples from around the community and the staff report that we saw um for what it could look like on both the North and South sides because that South Side is smaller than 10,000 square ft and this again is just kind of the quality that you're looking at in terms of that commercial center um this was also in the staff report it's something that that we put together this is from a a typical perspective shot um looking from the people in this diagram would be on Pelican Bay um so as Penny pointed out that most of the property lines have expansive areas of open space where we are budding existing Port Orange residential communities and so this was kind of the where will we be closest to residential it actually about to Pelican Bay but I think it's a great graphic still it shows you in terms of the existing features the open space and what that view transition looks like like with the height that we're proposing and so we think it it's really helpful to see the scale and impact on surrounding areas um this was also in your packet but we just wanted to highlight it again these are the neighborhood commercial type uses that are proposed um you could see in the materials that not all of the uses that we're proposing are going to be permitted on the south side and so there are certain uses under that lot one only um that you know in a traditional commercial core we think are are good ideas um but we don't want that in that 10,000 square ft and so we worked really closely with staff to kind of narrow down the use list um based on input that we received throughout and then with that I think I will hand it back over to Mark and Chris thank you okay so um again um I want to kind of talk a little bit and get Chris up here to talk a little bit about kind of how we've approached things with regard to storm water because I know that was one of the very important things that came up in our discussions not only with staff but also with um you know the community meeting that we had um but Chris can you kind of walk through the storm water plan and where we are preliminary and again one of the things I want to emphasize we are not at an engineering level of detail yet um so we have a lot you know kind of miles to go before we sleep if you will um with regard to what the final design will look like um but I think you know Chris can kind of give you an idea of what we're thinking at this point in time but based on what we know about the site thanks Mark uh Chris relly Chris Ry was Z con Associates 300 interchangeable V Orman Beach um so um Penny think first of all thanks all that was a great very thorough drainage uh report we're we're not used to that being that thorough so I'm going to try and get a little bit more into the weeds for you all and then that way it's uh you know a little bit more clear for you um so this site as Penny stated is in is in the flood plane so it's in flood plane AE and ah which is the floodway is the ah portion of it basically how we we've we're working with a um a group out of Jacksonville they they work with FEMA they are they do flood studies for FEMA they help FEMA revise the maps and as of right now they are evaluating this site to determine how much compensating storage we really will need but as we stated what is shown in blue and parcel 3 and parcel 2 that will not be developed that will be some form of storm water whether or not we need it or not so we are trying to not only help our site but the overall area as well um to just talk about what what happens in existing um so we have a survey of the site parcel one which is the the large one where the multi multif family will be what happens in parcel one is you know there's a large Wetland there in the middle everything kind of drains to existing ditches there's there's existing ditches on site with with drainage improvements there's there's a few pipes that connect to that um Wetland and then they also connect to the Pelican Bay Canal on the North side there existing ponds on that site that connect they're part of mine Avenue's drainage system which then also connects Neath meline to that large borrow pit there um so just in summary of parcel one the drainage generally flows south to North to that to that Pelican Bay canal and then flows East to the b19 canal now on that connection to the B9 b19 Canal there's a large Weir I don't know if you've been out there but it's a large Weir that's about 10 feet 8 feet higher than the existing uh b19 so it's it's pretty significant higher um so so when you and I I'm going to circle back to your question and that that's significant what I just said there so I'll Circle back to that when we get to parcel 3 um parcel two so as we said it's it's a it's a large B pit there are some on-site wetlands and how that flows is everything flows to those wetlands and then eventually Overland flows to the b19 the borrow pit as we discussed is part of the storm water system for meline as well and then in parcel 3 um so what happens with parcel 3 there are there are drainage ditches that basically connect through it from from either Pelican Bay or from the East um that run in between the parcels you'll see on one of the maps we have kind of arrows pointing where it goes um actually where's the air is at here here we go so here we go so here's how this is this is the proposed connection actually but if you'll see the ones where they're not with our ponds those are some of the drainage canals that flow east to west or west to east that go to the b19 canal they they flow through our property and so we will be maintaining all those connections and and basically what happens is as the b19 canal um stages up within these heavy events they either Overland flow to parcel two they will Overland flow to parcel 3 which is shown here well they Overland flow to the ditches within parcel 3 and then into the adjacent wetlands and Uplands and then within parcel one how it's connected to there is it will overflow to that Weir that we talked about and then into the Pelican base system and then overflow into our site we really are at a high point in this area we've we've looked at some of the elevations and um the parcel one actually is hydraulically connected not only to the B9 but also to the tamoka river it flows underneath Williamson Boulevard through what is the Walker Green property underneath the 95 all the way through tamoka farms and then to tamoka River so it it actually flows both ways there um and so that's that's really what happens during the predevelopment so what so how are we going to do what are we going to do during post so in post development parcel one will consist of basically just a storm water system for parcel one itself um we will treat and inate all the runoff there so basically we're going to capture it we're going to get rid of all the pollutant and then that is going to that is going to overflow to the on-site Wetland that is there and so all the water entering that Wetland will be treated there will be no nutrients well we'll remove the nutrients we're required to remove and it will help hydrate the Wetland we've actually found with St John's that they they like that because it help hydrates it helps with the hydraulic um plants in the area and then that will overflow to the b19 canal as it does now we will match pre-post rates we will not be adding any additional outfall to that to that Canal I'm sorry the Pelican Bay Canal which then goes to the B9 parcel two will consist of a small storm water system for whatever is built as part of the amenity area and the um the commercial node and then the rest of it will be compensating storage so compensating storage is basically um right now the entire sites are in the flood flood plane what that means is you know when it floods it uses the site as storage so we are the existing sites are using that site of storage but when we fill it in it no longer has that storage so how do we make up for it we dig a larger hole basically so that hole that'll be on parcel two is going to be dug deeper to to make up for that loss of storage parcel 3 same thing so we're going to dig every one of those large um ponds that are shown within the graphic deeper to allow to help for additional storage on site um and so basically whenever the b19 does overflow none of these will be hydraulically connected to our site within parcel 3 this will strictly be for flood compensation to help with the overall community and help with the impacts that we have on our site so as the b19 um stages up it'll overflow those ditches again and then it'll have a much more storage capacity in this area and thank you k you back to Mark and I promise we'll keep everybody close because I'm sure there'll be some questions on that but uh let me ask Sans lassers to come up and I know there were a couple of of comments about traffic we'll probably get into that a little bit more but um we've got a couple slides here that I just wanted Sans to kind of walk through the general idea with regard to the list the menu if you will that we've put together with in working with your staff and um kind of how the process will move forward from here thank you Mark Sans lass president founder of LTG our offices are 1450 West Granada and Orman Beach um we have done more study for this site at this level than you typically do we've actually gone into uh a lot more detail uh that's why you see all these potential improvements here under a maximum development scenario but it is key something that was said ear earlier on is that the peak hour traffic from the uh proposed uses are less than what the traffic would be from the existing uses the question was why are the prr trips less and the daily trips more it has to do with a change in uses we're using different uses and the some uses generate more in other hours of the day than the peak hour and actually that's kind of what you want you want the traffic dispersed hours where it's not a Peak condition and so that's the answer to that question the change in uses are causing trips to go outside the peak hour so they can actually be higher for a whole day but you won't see them in the congested periods and that's kind of what everybody's looking for is we want to minimize the peak hour traffic so that's the answer to that question um again as as said here these are the improvements that were anticipated possibly being needed if we get to that point of development according to this Maxim program and at the same time we've just heard the announcement of Williamson being Forlan so some of these improvements will come off the list but we'll obviously be preparing uh an analysis that'll show what our fair share of all these improvements are and we'll be having to um develop a a proportionate share agreement between the city and the county um to make those improvements there's more slides hello there you go okay touch um sure uh the main thing here is we show the turn Lanes down at the intersection of um meline and Williamson we also show a potential proposed signal up the North End um um along Williamson and just to let you know that is aligned with what's being proposed across the street we are not certain that it's going to even meet the signal warrant criteria but we're aligning it there just in the event that it does meet signal warrant criteria there will always be a potential for the two projects to share and the cost of a traffic signal which aren't cheap uh but uh we don't have an approval for traffic signal right there right now just to let you know it meets the spacing criteria but until the county sees an actual development program coming in here and actual counts and projections they won't really consider a signal but they they do understand that uh you know we're seeing that as a possibility and U there's one more I think this one just touched on the distribution yeah that just shows the distribution and uh again it's 44.8% to um melin to the east to the south towards the um um uh Williamson intersection is the balance um and as you can see as you get to Williamson 37 is going north and 44 uh excuse me 18 is going to the South and it shows peak hour projected volumes on those as well and this is based on using the urban area model that we all use do uses the county uses we all use to make sure that we're looking at traffic flowing in the correct direction from the projects you thank any questions of me at this point Thank yeah I got one Sans sure um in the event the widening of Williamson takes place before this actually uh gets built are they going to go ahead and put the diesel Lanes in at that point or is there going to be added cost to the developer at that point likely added cost to the developer okay so it's in their best interest to it it will be an added cost to the developer anyway the county is not going to pay for that they won't do a price cost share agreement no we like it but you never know I mean it's possible there may be drainage improvements that we can work with together there are all sorts of trading that happens if the developments are going together there's potential for pond storm water mingling and that sort of thing there's all sorts of deals that can be cut okay and I was going to actually repeat that um we you know the county is in design right now for the Williamson widening project and so they are looking for storm water and so you know I think one of the things that we've already had some conversations with them about you know how do we work together with regard to making that happen so there you know there's some possibilities there as as s me Sans mentioned that's really kind of that next step after we know what we're planning for with regard to the access management okay than that kind of gets into what I was going to talk about too is are you guys talking to the county right now as they're laying out their plans for Williamson so they at least know there's a potential for a couple turn Lanes there or something like that so there there's at least you know as you go through the steps uh to make them happy and their Engineers happy yes we are talking directly with them we're actually involved in the traffic sit on redesign as well okay so we are very much talking to them because that's you know that's a big problem in Port Orange we've got so many county and S and state roads buried in the city that anytime you want to do anything well we got to talk to do on that oh we got to go talk to the county on that and it's it's frustrating and I know a lot of us have shared that experience in the past where we're always dealing with another government on this thing well I'll tell you A lot of times our role seems to it almost feels like shuttle shuttle diplomacy right I mean we we know we hear the concerns in the city we you know kind of go back and forth with not only the city but the county um I can tell you that you know as we've been working over the past year year and a half on kind of this plan evolving we've had a number of meetings with the county to talk about not only what they have planned with regard to those those you know that immediate road project with the four laning but also how we could maximize as we move forward that menu of of of improvements how we work collaboratively to maximize the return for the community on improvements to the traffic well hopefully be some savings because they done rather than blocking efficiency is always you know something we we look forward so Tom had a question for you actually I got a couple questions s thanks for coming back up so can you feel a slide up again about uh traffic flow the main traffic flow where you had most everybody going north and not South on Williamson that one there you go yeah thank you so I you guys are smart I know you guys know what you're doing I look at some of the reality that I see and for example dun loton so we had really smart people designed dun Lon Boulevard and the interchange with 95 and put in a U-turn and put in another U-turn and said okay this is going to solve our problems here I live just south of this location um so they put in a a what folks do is they come up they come out of the Pavilion North on Williamson and realize oh I wanted to go south because I want to get back to the to Dun loton in the freeway they end up doing u-turns right in the middle in front of my entrance right in the middle of the road now that they've got a store Center there with a turn lane they go there which is great but people still come up and i' I've beat up Tim over this over and over again and he's he's gone through with traffic analysis and taught me a lot about this how do you engineer for stupidity though you can't build that into your model can you honestly what we have to do is we have to consider all possibilities and we make things as safe as they can but the county would tell you is the reason they're rebuilding Williamson and making it a divided roadway is to limit where people can come out and make turns make a lot of right in right out there will be Provisions for u-turns because when you start controlling traffic and not letting all movements occur you are causing u-turns to occur exactly do has published a document which shows how much safer u-turns are than a full median opening where all movements occur oh I I understand what you're saying there I get it with the u-turns um we're talking about u-turns right in the middle of a two-lane road they just decide to turn but let me ask you this and I I I I guess my question was rhetorical and I don't want to want to you know Beach up on all what people do because you can't engineer that I get it but in reality I'm looking at this you're saying 18% of the people are going south on Williamson that's where all the shopping is that's where dun Lon is that's where everything is and I look at that number I go I don't see 37% going North I see 40 or 50 going south because that's where the stuff is that they need well you're not wrong that 44% that goes east uhuh a significant portion of that then turns South on Clyde Morris so when you add those two together yeah you know that Happ so they they just they want to bypass the pain in on Williamson I will tell you this that the model takes into account how much background traffic there is on the road right and it will adjust because it looks at alternate traff path I get so it actually does a minimum travel path algorithm where it says well this route's a little more loaded we'll we'll send some of the traffic this way so in other words at what point will people avoid a road and go somewhere else and it exactly it does that and that's called the congestion diversion so we're sending half the people are going to go back up Madeline uh about 44% will go to mine to Clyde Morris and then split three ways yep yes yep I got that okay thank you very very much I appreciate it and we do show improvements to on in our plan to to accommodate that it's not as though we're adding that traffic and not showing improvements we are showing improvements I get that I get that yeah and I appreciate didn't mean to be C to you so thank you Lance Lance in in Williamson's upgrades that's coming is is the widening of the overpass part of it no and when is that on the long range plan that has not been determined back when we had uh when we were looking at other things like other funding sources like the half cent sales tax we did have those types of improvements in place but we don't at this point in time have it we show it as a long-term need it's right there as a long-term need we just don't have it as a funded Improvement yet thank you everybody else good yeah all right and so we're happy to stand back up answer any other questions that might uh come up from citizen comment things of that nature and if I could just reserve a couple minutes to respond at the end um of that process as well any other questions for the applicants Dan I sure and that's kind of why I want to put aside some of the stuff and Tom had touched on it owner too when we're looking at the this whole drainage flow um and of course especially since a lot of us got beat up in the last couple storms that's a hot issue and what I think I heard you say is on parcel 3 the long skinny piece yes uh that's basically going to be held open as a water retention area whatever and you've got one of the things I hate about this thing is we get you know these great big plans sure boil down to this and you kind of got to look around at it but it looks like you've got some compensating storage areas and I think what I heard you guys say some of that stuff will actually be dug out so it'll be a deeper Pond there than what currently exists um my question on this is you're still under the restrictions like everybody is you can't let water flow off your property under their neighbor's property so that includes the b19 canal so I'm going to simplify it and and the engineers can jump up and correct me if I oversimplify it from a regulatory standpoint we are allowed to drain into the b19 canal with the same volume and at the same rate in the post-development condition that we do in the pre-development condition so what we have to do when we design our storm water system is we have to do we have to go do that model how does everything function now before we disturb anything on the property and that's going to establish that volume and rate of discharge into the b19 canal like anybody else you have the right for I mean you can't say you know water stops flowing at my boundary right and so people have the right to discharge onto you know their neighbors they can't increase that flow they can't flood their neighbor out but they can continue to flow the way that you know Nature has intended it and or the way that nature has has done over time so when we look at a piece of property like this so when we're looking at parcel 3 for for example here um you know that currently discharges a certain amount into the b19 canal it will be allowed to continue discharging that amount at that rate in the future now what we looked at this when we looked at this um this parcel 3 we had the option of do we replicate the Suburban development pattern the single family houses like you have at Sunset Cove along there and then big do big ponds periodically you know to kind of you know provide that compensating storage or do we take that density do we move it away from the canal and do we make that Canal someplace where we can dig some areas for the water to go not only for the benefit of our project because we are filling up that other area where the development will occur but we're digging it down to provide not only the compensating storage we need but excess for the entire Basin and we felt like that was you know I said in the beginning we felt like this was a much more responsible way to look at these three parcels and that's the primary reason why instead of developing them to put people in the path of that in the future and and we we've talked about this at the neighborhood meeting we're showing ponds there in reality what you're doing is going into those blue areas and you're scraping down a couple feet you're not digging you know giant ponds or anything like that but you're scraping down a couple feet it'll likely come back and populate as you know kind of like a wetland area there'll be natural vegetation in there but when that you know Canal Rises when there's a need for that flood water to go someplace we've now created a place for it to go adjacent to it and so we got to make sure that nothing goes into the Neighbors on the I guess it's east side correct so we're going to be able to hold it on our property everything that they have and and that was one of the things that Chris pointed out if you see where we've got these break points there are these places where you have either either flow or easements or you know some connection from the neighborhood to the to the east to The Grove and and the other uh I'm forgetting the top the one up on the north um across that that parcel to the canal so so we're maintaining that flow as well we can't cut that off and create a dam you know now the b19 itself is owned by the county it is and they're responsible for the maintenance it is they're responsible for that that's the one thing I always look at is like I've got a canal in my backyard I've been in my spot now for 35 years I've never seen the city come through and do maintenance and we've had a lot of discussion on maintenance of canals and that kind of stuff so is the county going to and you can't answer this I'm sure is the county going to have to take a look at at the condition of the b19 now well it's pretty much wide open I mean right now they could get in there and they could do whatever they needed to and it's not going to hurt anything because you're not going to do too much to it but is is that something that we're kind of suggesting hey guys this would be a good time to take a look at this it it will but you know it's a funny way that the county does things too um so we have to get a use permit from them to connect into their Canal just like we do to connect into their Road and when they you know it's funny how those conditions in the use permit work when you come in and say hey we're going to be connecting in to your Canal they say great as a condition of your connection you can maintain it as well or that section and we we just had that experience um just to the north of here the new Amazon facility that's going in next to the airport we did the same thing Chris designed a storm water system it doesn't increase the rate or the or the um volume of water going into that Canal but it put it it took it from an Overland flow to a point right we're going to come out here now and they said great build it and then you can maintain it um now I will say they do occasionally I have a brother-in-law whose job it is to Wade through those canals and maintain them he he claims to love it um but um you know it they do have a maintenance program but you don't see it that often there's a lot of canals so what they do is they they typically as we're improving or doing connections into it they will likely say you get to help maintain parts of it now too and would that also tie into what's the one on the north side of parel w of the pelic Pelican Bay it's a little different because that one is not I don't think that's County there's no County maintenance on that Pelican Bay one so that one is really sort of a large Open Water essentially um so the maintenance is probably at that Weir and I think it's probably one of the master HOAs that has a has the maintenance Authority on that we are we have a continuing right to drain into it again because it's where we drain now um we just can't increase it we can't raise their their water levels and things of that nature the rate of discharge the volume of discharge has to stay consistent so just one further question then so when I go back to parcel 3 and I look at these compensation storage areas is that compensating also for water coming off of parcels 1 and two so it's so if you can imagine so um parcel one just to get technical so parcel one has an elevation the flood of elevation is 28 and so that means that within a 100-year storm the the water rises up to about elevation 28 the existing ground is around 27 so there's only about a foot of storage there so what we're going to do with these other pawns is we're going to dig them down four or five feet to make up for that storage that we're going to be filling so so look at so and we have a my question then is so we've got a clear path for that water to come off of parcel one especially since it's just a a slight Point we've got a way for water to flow out of there out of using the b19 or no it'll so our storm water discharge will still as as as U Mark said the rates will be the same as leaving our site but in a flood event that parcel 3 will serve as a compensating storage area that will for any um go ahead but let me get to the point that I think M you're you're asking and that I that is are we piping storm water from parcel one to parcel three the answer to that is no right but if you look at if you look at the two slides and it's kind of hard when you see them let me go back to the one where you well you get that you know on the on the thing I've got you've got one little point where they make connection and so if you look at this all right right and if you you know I think the the thing that Chris said when he was talking about this overall design is that we've got a floodway and we've got got flood plane area that that all exist you know kind of on this property and what we ultimately want to do as you're doing anywhere in town is you take anything that's that's in a flood plane or anything like that and you elevate where you're going to build out of the flood plane when you do that if I put a cubic foot a cubic foot of of soil in the flood plane I have to dig a cubic foot hole someplace else right and so where you see the yellow and the red here where we're clustering that development to occur we're building that up and so so that storage is more horizontal where's we going to go vertical and we'll still be holding on the wetlands on the middle of of one one and then potentially anything could flow East I guess it is onto three to take advantage of this compensated it'll flow through the Pelican Bay Canal to the b19 and then if it's a large event then it would flow into three could flow on it could come up over you know the b19 and come in there but but what we're doing is providing it a place to go and so the the design here is to concentrate where you're building up away from the canal right and to concentrate where you're digging down to provide that volume next to the canal that's the super simple lawyer version of I think how we're designing and the one benefit of um this site and being in the flood plane in the flood way is that you know normally we just do a storm water calculations where we just look at our site and just in isolation let's look at our site make sure we we are taking care of ourselves but in this one we have to look at the whole Global Neighborhood so we're doing a full flood study from FEMA we are getting their model of the are area plugging this site in to make sure that we don't affect anybody around us within the whole flood Basin so just on the wild card and something we really can't control as my understanding is on the other side of of Clyde Morris there's a new development also being planned is that drainage part of the consideration that FEA does for you know what impact our well so it depends who go who goes in first so if we're in first then they have to account for us if we go in first and they or if they go in first then we have to count for them so in in your design are you kind of assuming that you're going to be in first um I I don't know about that development okay but it it just depends when the FEMA model is updated so we pull from FEMA their model of the whole area and then modify it and ultimately that's based on where the permit is so again we're we're talking at the zoning level now so we don't have an active permit that's in exactly so if their permit goes in before ours and then we come in and say we're going to be doing this in the area they're going to say well you need to take into account this that's happening there so and that's similar to the traffic I mean we have to look at traffic the same way and look at kind of the cumulative things going around within the the vicinity all right I think I've got my main questions answered I'll defer Scott uh no I'm good thank you for all the question help we'll keep them they're all um first of all I plud you guys on making sure there's compensating balances on you know uh two and three my question is on on two two um the pond that were're talking about you're you're going to dig that pond how deep are you digging that pond and is that pond going to be or is the fill from that pond going over to uh yes most likely yeah that'll be a full wet Pond and by digging that pond the side will balance between the two um we we don't have numbers yet you know we haven't got the design yet so I'm not sure there is an existing B pit there too so it's it looks bigger than it is you know we're just expanding that pawn okay and uh there's a weird between uh parcel 2 and the b19 canal correct uh we have actually not found a direct discharge it just if it stages up high enough it basically just over lands overflows over the bank and so it's it's sloping towards the canal now yes okay so we don't or the whoever goes in there and develops it isn't going to make it slope down they're just going to keep the natural Contour in place right okay so am I am I getting what you're saying is partial 3 are you going to dig ponds on partial 3 so it'll be I'm going to put the tree hugger in me on this one it's it's wooded it's not it is it is so there's no yeah there's no ponds out there now there's it's natural been natural for however long and yep I know it's low but are we digging so if you look at the concept um you could see the pockets where we kind of carve out some areas those are where the nice trees are we have saved those nice trees along with I know it's it's a really small scale but it's 50 foot buffer along the Eastern side so we're saving 50 foot of trees along the east side and then I the west side is it's greater than 50 ft actually is what we're saving because that pink shade in there is actually part of the parcel as well so we are the plan is to dig down in some areas deep we don't know where or just scrape down in some areas so we are going to respect some of the trees but then there are some areas that it will be a full wet Pond really because if we need it might we might need it for fill basically so if we if we need it for fill or we need it for extra storage we might dig down further um or there might be areas where we just scrape down really Mark can you move a different SL I think we're talking about parcel one you're talking about three right you're talking because I mean I find it's a natural and I thought and all along since I've been following the project I thought it was you were just kind of doing this as good graces into the calculations MH not necessarily tampering with the land and and the tree hugger in me is like you know if the land could stay natural for you know because there's let's think about it man we're we're just moving animals and everything else out and now if we're going to go in there and quote shape this and and and dig it and and tear down trees and make ponds I didn't anticipate that but because each parcel already because parcel one's already kind of you're already carrying parcel one's water on parcel one correct you're creating more water retention on two I get three is really a a three is just a number so so I think one of the things that and Chris said this when when he first got up and started talking about kind of the the concept from the storm water standpoint right now we've got a lot of calculation to do one of the things that the PD um commits us to doing is that floodway study um we've got to work with your staff and the the consultant that's coming out of Jacksonville and FEMA to really model everything and So based on that this is this is showing conceptual the intent with regard to three is to preserve the large areas of trees the larger trees things of that nature that's why you see you know we do have some of the information about where are the you know specimens or the larger trees and so that's what you see these little bump outs are you know is where we know yeah that's where we know there's a tree that we want to make sure that we're not taking out because it's a larger tree it's a significant one the rest of it the you know the general idea is go in here as little as as possible as little as possible to make sure that you're providing enough compensating storage based on the floodway study you know we B I mean so you're basing this on what may or may not be dumped into the Pelican Bay or dumped into the b19 and and if it was to rise and obviously that's water is going to creep back up onto parcel 3 is what we're getting at but in reality we're going to be that particular piece of parcel is going to only catch what comes from the north it's not going to catch what's coming from the south or because it's all going to so the these are going to be only effective if if we have an event from and it's flooding us from the north yes so so that's this goes back to the the Weir conversation about how the wear is a little bit higher than the um than the the ditch itself yeah I get that so we're so these these will be lower than that Weir so as this stages up it's not going to get over the Weir to get to parcel what is parcel one which was the storage that was there because it's going to flow into parcel 3 and stay there so it'll keep it at a lower elevation come water coming from the North or water coming from the West as it backs up as it come as it backs up from the south so you know it's going there's a point discharge with the b19 when it gets down to the Spruce Creek and it's it's as Spruce Creek Rises the water slowly backs up right and then that's when it starts to get that Overland flow yeah I mean again I I get it but and re the reality is that that parcel three does no no good for this piece of property and it's only is only generating compensating storage for any event that would happen from the north um Lance they will they're they're all hydraulically connected in the predevelopment condition uh by way of pipes and Overland flow when it I'm sorry Dwight Durant Zev and Associates uh 300 Interchange Boulevard Orman Beach um they're all hydraulically connected female will make sure that that happens the county will make sure that happens and your staff will make sure that that that is all true and in post- development that will happen too these are all three of these Parcels are right next to each other so um an improvement done on one will help all three so it's not it's not whether the water comes from the North or from the south the water actually rises in these large events so we have to look at it from two perspectives one the Water Rising and so if you have a bathtub and you put your grand child in it it's going to rise right well if you catch water and put your grandchild in it and don't let that water go in it's not going to rise anymore as the the first condition if you if you know what I mean so so the water is so close to each other it's not like it's we're a mile away and we're going to benefit people a mile away and we're going to impact people here so you have the rising water and then you have the flood we have the flow way there so we have to make sure that we we don't impede the flow so part of the b19 canal problem Upstream of this is a result of the water not getting through the canal faster so widening it will make sure that that drainage is improved in the overall sense because it is all hydraulically connected and and the way we get our volume out of it is this the stuff that you see with the trees there's dirt there there's dirt where water can't go if we can find a place to take that dirt out where water can go then it makes it it prepares it in the future for um a later storm another trick that we can do to improve drainage and I think that if you probably look and see where every were flooded in Port Orange when we had the catastrophic event a couple weeks a couple years ago there were areas that didn't have storm water management done they were done prior to permitting so when the permitting occurs Improvement occurs we do we design for a 100-year storm but we don't always get a 100-year storm sometimes we get more but usually all those events we're in a better situation because we're designed for something bigger so when when these improvements are done it does benefit uh everywhere are we making the b19 canal wider next to this essentially yes yes the ditch itself or or the canal the canal itself so the county controls it and and so it's it's half canal and and and half um patrol ditch I mean a patrol road for them to maintain uh it could be wider and it would it would perform better but then they couldn't maintain it and it and it's fairly well maintained but is that what we're proposing and then we have property outside of that that we're going to combine in with all of that and make it all work together okay and so what we've done and again we're not we don't have all the landscape any tree we take out we will have to compensate for either plant something or or or whatever we don't get a free ride out of that so uh from the tree hugger part in you uh it's all made whole and quite honestly honestly those trees when they're flooded and there's a lot of erosion and there's they're not that's what I'm Tre is is it a delineated Wetland or or yes it is there are some wetlands in there and uh we're working with the Water Management District right now to define those we've actually have our so two soil our soil scientists and theirs fighting over you know what's a wetland only for the purpose of not saving the wetlands because they are so degraded but it's determine what the mitigation value is going to be right I mean on a scale 1 to 10 there's nothing over there that that I'm hearing now is over a three okay and so they're they're they're stressed they're stressed by the canals and the ditches that go through there right now that are currently draining it trying to get ready what I was going to say was another trick that we do is that what Chris was alluding to is that water in the Pelican Bay Canal is backed up I mean it's got a lot of my golf balls in there and it just it just has it's it's uh there's so much more capacity in there if we for instance lower L the Weir one foot and lowered all that water then it's ready for the next storm I mean that's how we manage storm water We Don't Make It Rain less we have to put the water someplace and so we have 8et to work with there to to try to draw it down and be ready none of this has been calculated and worked out and approved we have to do all that and uh we won't get approval by any of the agencies I just mentioned with without completely demonstrating to them that we've done that so hopefully that's a a long-winded explanation of what yeah that's what I'm looking for I mean because again the the least amount of impact we could do to the property obviously to me is this going to be a better fit even though because I think we're just using it for numbers we're just using it for for square footages and calculations and I don't think it's that big but if we're widening the ditch down there and we're creating the the capacity for for more stream is what I'm looking at I'm just looking at water moving you know what I mean right and and so I don't think you're going to get a lot off of the Pelican Bay ditch unless the property to the West is any do you know if any of the property to the West can drain that way or is it all got to go to TOA Bas W Willi the Walker's green it goes the other way it does yes so from Williamson West is going west pretty much okay yes um so so we learned early and that's why it took so long to get to where we are today uh from staff they gave us some really good advice on the backs of the homes there along that Canal we needed to stay away from them so we dedicated a huge buffer that we won't touch to do anything and then uh we were able to convince the kassis and their representatives that this was the right thing to do they could have like it was said they could have put a road and a bunch of houses in there and made everybody mad or it would have taken a whole lot of process and a whole lot of skin off his back to get to where we're proposing to go to today okay so all right so on uh I'll going back to you now know the boss is already yeah so uh but but on lot two though we are digging the pond bigger and we are digging the pond deeper yes well the existing Pond is already pretty deep so we're just going to dig expand it basically okay all right I'm good with those guys thanks Tom no I'm good than I just have one question so am I correct in saying let's say this development is done finished everybody's moved in living their best lives you you are the ones that are going to ultimately possibly be responsible for maintaining these parcels and wetlands and and drain points correct so um we have to have you know the one of the things that's required is when you build a storm water system there has to be a permanent maintenance entity a lot of times that can be a a PO like a Property Owners Association or an HOA some sometimes it's a CDD um but you have to transfer that permit so you construct it and then somebody has to to be left with the permit and the responsibility for maintenance the bag and the and the enforcement so you know there there's enforcement rights to come back and say you're not maintaining it up to up to par and so you know you know it'll be you know the land owner the you know the entity that they set up will be responsible for maintaining the storm water now Port Orange generally also says when you're coming through and developing here you want an emergency you know maintenance right and the ability to come back and lean us if we don't do it um so that's the way your codes are set up and I think that's a very smart way of doing things but um you've got the authority to do it if you need to but the responsibility is on the landowner the the association that ultimately owns it just like every other like every other neighborhood that you have typically the association or a CDD and the of like um you know the Pioneer Trail CDD um owns and maintains the the ponds and the lakes and things of that nature you know I thought I heard him say when you asked him that question I thought I heard you say yes Mark Watts will be out there with a sh absolutely I've got this I've got this brother-in-law that works for the county it was the brother-in-law that's make sure I was clear on that that's right okay I know a lot of bit awesome if I can just have a couple minutes come back up and answer any of the questions might come up from the public i' appreciate it thank you commissioner comments start with Stan right now we're good Scott also good thanks for everybody else for guys answered a lot of my questions thank you B interes but uh I'll just listen for a bit I'm going to listen to the public first Tom my my primary comment is my concern with the traffic Generation Um I think a lot of the water retention and drainage issues have been addressed really well but my big concern is traffic that's a comment so go forward I think one of my biggest comments is I don't know when we would ever have the opportunity again to have somebody come in here and go you know what we understand all these problems and we're going to help you fix them by doing these things and going out of their way to do it the way we would rather than do it nobody ever does that for us so thanks for that part um if we're good I will start accepting public comments please keep it to 3 minute minimum and if you have nothing additional to add to the conversation that hasn't already be said please withstand anybody who's going first please state your name and address any evening all Dennis Hoffman bro viw Lane Fort Orange I have a comment about the traffic issue I like Thomas is uh relating to coming out of gr viw Lane onto madin the curve in the road there almost well I can say it creates a problem that's going to cause an accident and that's where it is now that's without this proposed 865 more houses down the road that I would equate that to about 4 to 500 extra cars in a day H it's an average um during the presentation we had from the uh provider couple months ago they had mentioned that Williamson was going to be four lane north to Bevel from Williamson South it's still going to remain two lanes that's going to be a big bottleneck right there I'll tell you that right now even though there is a traffic light there um I have a question about the 65 foot uh tall buildings that would be about four stories maybe five stories currently I I believe only in Port Orange where they're uh developing now on Clyde on Clyde Mars they're only two stories I don't think I've seen a three story building there just wanted to make that point out I think five stories is a little bit ridiculous for this area so thank you very much and that was my time appreciate thank you so much thank you for anybody else Robert commission members Robert rehagen 1425 Dex Drive North Port Orange um there a little confusion I heard I heard the one gentleman say that they had talked to karassi people out of putting in a a road and houses on parcel fre And yet when commissioner Jordan asked uh Penny about uh whether they were making that uh that parcel three uh without houses was it because they chose to or because they had to and she told them they had to and so I I'm not I I could find no discussion of what kind of agreements were made to permit the creation of ditches across parcel three to drain Sunset Oaks and the Groves but I would suggest to you that when they did that when the city permitted that they essentially created a conservation easement for all of uh parcel 3 and so I would suggest that by creating that easement that conservation easement they have essentially eliminated the uh theoretical number of units that could be built on that property and made it zero so I think that they're claiming to put in 8 73 units I think they have to reduce that number of units by the number of units that would have been put been able to be put on partial three so that in my calculation comes to around 200 units so I don't think they should be permitted to have a theoretical limit of 873 I think they have to reduce it by the number of units that were originally thought to be uh theoretically possible on partiel 3 and also that 7.7 Acres of of uh commercial that that would have been houses too and those houses have to be removed so I think they have to reduce the number of theoretical units significantly before you uh approve this thank you thank you if I'm not mistaken just to answer Robert's one question Penny the uh the comment that penny made was based on if this is approved is that correct not if it's it's not they can't build that's part of the agreement that we will be making tonight anyone else from the audience hi hi Lisa Hutchinson 3883 Long Grove Lane um I went to the general meeting that they had back in October and again for me I've lived in the Groves for 30 years now and um my biggest thing is about the traffic as well I typically because of where my house sits um I usually go to the east to go out to meline okay um there's times now that I'm not understanding how they're going to improve that intersection with any kind of widening because there's nowhere to go and you you have the traffic coming out of the pin's shopping center the left turn lane people come into the oncoming turn lane cuz the the left light doesn't uh turn arrow doesn't always go so the traffic is so far back you can't get out my concern is that there is no way to widen Clyde Morris and Madeline's intersection to accommodate the traffic that may come from this and I know if they go to 873 we can say if there's one person with one car 873 more cars but if there's two and three and four bedroom units we could be up to 3,000 more cars and we still have Hawks Mill that's being built and I don't know how many units in Hawks mill on Clyde moris so we don't really nobody's given those numbers we don't know that so that is a really big concern for me because meline is is the main thorough fa because not as many people go down William run as they used I mean people use William run but there's so many more people cutting from you talk about that cut through people go down long grve to avoid meline so they don't get a speeding ticket so they fly down our street to go around so I'm just saying it creates this whole Quagmire and that I just want to say traffic is my biggest concern there people in our neighborhood won't be able to get out right or left and and Clyde Morris in that back up there it that's my biggest thing and the second thing I just wanted to mention was I'm not sure I understand why we have to have 873 Apartment Homes I don't understand why we can't have single family development I don't know how it benefits us to have this massive density packed on too because I kind of think it's kind of nice to live where there's still some land and sea trees and things of that nature and I am concerned about the five story thing I don't know that I was looking all around even up by LPGA where everything's crazy all four stories or less so those are my thoughts thank you for listening thank you so much thank anyone else good evening everyone I'm Barry pek I live at 5648 Bald Eagle Drive 3 2128 uh coming a little bit late in on the conversations and the thought processes and all the work that these folks have done but a simple answer a simple question probably a complex answer if nothing happens to that site what occurs you don't want to know you could try me it's they can build anything that's already ready to Zone what they're doing is better than what somebody else could come in and do for and who would be the they anybody else who bought the property but they would have to come through the same process that you're going through now well no because they no because they're trying to change the process to make it better which shouldn't be this hard honestly okay uh in terms of sustainability and concurrence I think the the um the planning document talks about so many years out like 20 30 40 years out well I'm I'm going to look like 30 4 40 years down okay from from now and with this project which I believe one gentleman said it would go through a full growth 5 to 10 years it's not a an overnight thing so there you got this project and then you're going to have this project and we know we're going to have this project and at what point are we able to sustain and maintain and concur when all these things are happening and sometimes there's some you know some stuff just gets a little too filled in the grocery basket and it falls out and it gets destroyed and it loses its value and that's my concern that if we are looking just the next 5 to 10 just the next 10 to 20 anything past that it's kind of hard to undo what's already been done and so my concern would be to give thought to not just this project but other projects to take away the sustainability and the ability to keep the the standards of living that we're used to and that we like and that we we uh expect to continue thank you thank you hi Anita Norwood 30 888 Long Grove Lane um I've been in the Grove just as long as Lisa so it's a wonderful Community I love it I moved from Daytona to this area my biggest concern also is the traffic along that stretch of meline cuz even right now it's crazy um I literally was coming out of that Plaza today and almost got hit by somebody because cars are everywhere and I don't know if they're going to um have any plans for expanding that road to make it better for more traffic or not but right now it's already crazy and like other people had mentioned um the wild animals the trees it's quiet I can sit on my porch in the morning I don't hear cars I don't hear anything all that's getting taken away and population is just crazy so again like that gentleman just said maybe I don't know when there's a stopping point but that's just several concerns and the storm water drainage is a big one my house sits on the canal right in between colony and the wood floods every single time there's a terrible terrible rainstorm they have to run that pump thing whatever that is I don't know where that water goes but I've seen it up over our side and our lands like this compared to them so where just all you know it's too much thank you thank you I just want to make a quick statement um and you guys can disagree with me if you want but I think something that a lot of residents don't understand and honestly I didn't understand for years is we are kind of left with the decisions that have been made throughout the years and we're trying to take these type of properties that are being sold and do doing something better with them than what's already approved so sometimes it's a matter of the lesser of two evils right I remember us doing the storage unit on Williamson and Lance and I lived down there and we weren't thrilled with that but it was so much better than what would have gone had we not approved the storage unit so sometimes you have to take the better option out of what would be if you didn't so so just something to think about do you want to come up and address okay I think Jessica and I just both have a couple things we just wanted to respond to Jessica did you want to talk about the mateline and and uh the comment about meline and the improvements of the intersection yeah um for the record again Jessica G cob4 nights after Avenue Dayton Beach Florida tried to say it faster each time um I I want to say I understand um where the residents are coming from because I live behind the ill spoken of but I think it's fine Hawk Mill um I live on Stillwood which is right off of mine and Clyde right behind the neighborhood market so they're building in my backyard right and as a development attorney I did tell my husband we can't be upset about that U and so when they came through I think when you talk about impact on neighborhoods and things like that that is a traditional zoning classification I think it is a pewd approved long ago um but when you see where that butts up to the Vikings and then my neighborhood there's a fence there's 20 ft and then there's three stories and so the visual impact of that which again not terrible their fencing is nice they have Nice Landscaping but it's there um is much different than when you have 100 feet away 200 feet away 300 feet away the visual impact of four stories at that scale which is kind of what Mark is showing there and I I want to reiterate I too would be angry if tomorrow 863 homes were created and put onto the matal line that we have today that I use every single day um that's not what we're proposing we're proposing improvements a long intensive review to see what improvements are needed specifically for our site but then for the overall community that I think will create improvements that will benefit my commute when I go to the Farmers Market on Saturday or when I go over to one Daytona to the north um Foxdale versus copper line you know I'm living this intersection every single day I I go to Pines too often and so I understand what they're saying and I do think that right now it could not handle that and we know that and so moving forward it is not what here is here now versus what we're proposing to add to it it's how we make it better to accommodate what they we currently need and what we're adding to it as well no I think that those are really a lot of the great points that that that I was going to cover I mean I think you know I said at the beginning we're not here today asking you to give us an approval to say go build that now it is what are what's going to occur there versus what's there now and how do we work together to plan for the infrastructure and everything else that needs to be upgraded to accommodate that as we go through phase by phase but I you know it's interesting when you sometimes you you spend so much time like really really kind of thinking okay what are the words I'm going to use what are the words I'm going to use to kind of you know come to this at the end and say Here's why I think you should approve it and I was looking through the comp plan today and it occurred to me that I wasn't going to use my words I was going to use yours um you know when I looked through the the future land use element in your comp plan again today and a lot of this is you see these same things quoted throughout our application and some of the materials we we um uh we submitted to to staff but the thing that jumped out at me there's a statement in there that you know at the time the comp plan last update which I think was about 10 or 10 or so years ago um the city was 80% built out at that time and so goal four in your comprehensive plan residential development and neighborhoods that's the title to it and I was reading through it and I as I read it I was like this is what we're doing objective one create residential land use pattern that accommodates a diverse housing uh mix that meets lifestyle and socioeconomic needs of the city not just single family but having that mix right having the the availability of of multiple different choices policy 4.1.1 residential land uses shall be established at a variety of densities in order to create a wide range of housing choices and costs the variety should be reflected on the on the future land use map the next policy 4.1.2 uh new neighborhoods should be created to have defined centers and edges within a quarter mile of the edge neighborhood centers shall include Central gathering places in the form of parks Civic Lawns neighborhood commercial nodes and other amenities next one and I won't read all these word for word but the city will encourage developers to pursue creative alternatives to Conventional Suburban development patterns including innov Innovative housing designs clustering conservation subdivision designs well-connected grid Street networks context sensitive Street configurations uh and compact mixed use development next one uh City shall encourage uh residential land uses and developments that have a greater potential to support mass transit within designated public transportation corridors with priority given to developments that will bring the greatest increase to Transit ridership the single greatest thing you can do to increase Transit ridership ridership is put density in the right locations along your your transportation corridors uh and finally mitigate the visual and physical impacts of multif family development with architectural and Landscape treatment standards and that picture came to mind you're not seeing it you're seeing me gesturing to a screen but um it's that really pretty picture of the you know the what it looks like when you have a couple hundred feet of separation between where you're placing that clustered density and where the adjacent Suburban residential density is as a I read through that and I was like it's a pretty good summary of what we're here asking you to approve tonight um those policies if you follow them you know one after the other really is a pretty good description of what we've worked with your staff and and you know our technical staff um to put together as a plan here so we'd ask for your support and recommendation this evening obviously there's a there's a lot of questions still to be answered and we're not asking for any shortcut through the analysis and through the process to answer those questions there's going to be more traffic review there's going to be more definition of what those specific improvements are what gets widened what intersections get improved what we end up paying for how we work with the county to maximize what they're doing and what we're doing to benefit everybody but we have to start it with what are we designing to accommodate how are we going to put these 873 units there are they going to be the single family mix of single family and multif family now that actually generates higher traffic is it multif family with some mixed use commercial in there that helps shorten trips and alleviate some of those trips that can be avoided by walking next door to get coffee next to your community so um we think that this is a a really well thought out plan I appreciate your time and everybody's patience this evening and the time they gave us back in October as well um we actually one of the things that I said wrong at that meeting was we were going to have five story buildings and everybody's like we don't have that anywhere in Port Orange I was wrong it was four um I just got carried away with the moment but um in any event I I did want to clear that up for the record that four is what we're looking for and those are the only the ones on the interior of that site so with that I appreciate your time and and patience and consideration this evening you have any more questions that come up our whole teams here thank you so much okay any other last commissioner comments before we make a motion that Mark B no I I have to kind of concur with what your words um a few minutes ago about the options you know if we don't do this if we this isn't approved what's the likelihood of something less desirable in that area and any way you look at it there's going to be traffic and there's going to be a requirement for mitigation um I I think it's a good plan personally Lance I've um I've been on the fence about this one for a while I think overall as a whole I think the concept of the project is good I I'm okay with putting the development in one area and keeping Greener space in other locations um again I I kind of like I like the model of it and I don't have a problem with with the actual project I don't have a problem with the drainage I have a problem with again and and I'm going to listen to to this man say okay where are we going to be 25 years we can't have a vision for today or five years we got to have Vision 25 years is where we got to go and right now what we're seeing is we're seeing the maturity of the vision that was 25 years ago and now unfortunately the infrastructure is not kept up with that vision and now that infrastructure is behind okay I don't know how we could ever put another car on Williamson until I would know when's the overpass going to be widened I don't care about the the the Williamson being widened to Bev road that doesn't help this project period so I don't have I have a problem put another car on meline to Clyde Morris that road is already to me a failure so putting putting another car on this without knowing when you know and again 25e Vision maybe that bridge will be wider maybe we'll have another meline to to mocha Farms or some way to to get around this because right now meline is a failure period so as a project I don't have a problem with the project at all I like the concept I just don't know how we put another car on the road in that section without knowing what is the future of the of the bridge and what's the future of Williamson that's all I have Tom yeah I you know Lanson I think a lot of like in this area I I it's a great project it really is it's good project I think it's well designed well thought out you're putting parcels and and and the and the combination is in the right places um unfortunately and and and we look at we look out 10 years that's our job is to look out 10 years and and what what could happen and what this town what this city can look like in the future um and I'm frustrated because we we have to sit here and you have to sit there the the residents have to sit there and hope hope that 13 different projects get done to handle traffic and it's already a problem we know that and gee we hope as you said we hope there a bridge gets built and Sans is absolutely right we had we had a sales tax opportunity increased to raise money to fix these things and in my opinion it was it was marketed wrong but let's be honest if if somebody came to you and said I'll tell you what it'll cost you 20 bucks a year and we'll fix Madeline between Williamson and and and Clyde Morris guaranteed that's where this money will go you'd say I love that idea and if they said it was going to go specifically to Williamson from meline to Dun Len or meline to Dun we're not going to go north if they said that and said look it'll cost you 30 bucks extra a year you'd say I could afford that and if I knew I was going to get traffic on Williamson fixed man that would be worth it if they came to you and said it's going to cost you each $50,000 for your portion of new bridge you might hold off on that one I get that but that's really a solution you got to be willing to spend the money to fix the problems that we have you can't just let the road sit there and go well I hope the developers put in enough money for this fair share project because that money is going to have to sit there in a pot right he's going to put an X number of dollars into a pot it says it's going to fix Clyde Morris and it's going to fix madelin and it's going to fix uh Williamson but that money is not enough to do all those right away so that money has to go into a pot where other people other developers put money into that pot and eventually we get enough money from state and federal that we can then fix it but you're looking 10 years down the road so he can say we're going to put money into a fair share pot but it doesn't mean it's going to be fixed as soon as these folks start building right we know that my overall opinion is I said a lot here I sorry my overall opinion is a great project and what could be built there right now without have them having to come to us for permission is is is not any better and it could be worse because it's going to be straight zoning you just don't know what you're going to get but in good conscience I am so frustrated when I have to to vote and say G I think it's good to put another 1,82 trips on meline and and Clyde Morris and Williamson and that frustrates me and I I get your issues but I you also got to look at our issues and say what's the better choice here to to put in this in this parcel that's my comment I I I agree with you I mean traffic is the one thing I hear about the most from people um and so it's it's definitely an issue um traffic and drainage of course which are two things you guys are going above and beyond to address um but I but I truly do feel like with this project we are looking more ahead than 10 years ago they looked ahead I feel like this board is so much better at looking ahead than the board 10 20 years ago was because including including l no just because because we've had to deal with these situations so much we are trying to get better at looking ahead I feel like this project is looking more ahead than many of the projects we've had come before us and maybe not as head as we want it to be but better than we've had so is is now a good time to tell them they should remember this conversation when the parks and wreck Bond Bond come up for vote cuz when that you you're going to have the same problem when that Bond comes up for vote want you to increase your tax um okay so real quickly yes you know I I share your frustration the problem that we have is that these are governmental bodies we don't control we're talking about the State Department of Transportation we're talking about some County money and then we're talking about a whole new development that's across the way that again is not part of Port Orange The Walker preser thing is so you're looking at you know we're kind of on the far end of this thing and we're trying to control what we can control but there's other stuff around there that we have no say onol there there's nothing we can do you got to go talk to Daytona Beach you got to go talk to the county you got to go talk to the state um the bridge is going to be a nightmare and it'll I would be stunned if they get that overpast six and 10 years because they don't know where the money's coming from um you know if we had the sales tax that'd be great but right now there were all kinds of people jumping up and down yeah we defeated the money grab and again it was because it was poorly marketed uh it was thrown together too fast they didn't think it through and didn't present it well that never got done because now here we are we don't have any funding everyone talks about what about gas tax well the problem you have with gas tax is as gas tax is pennies per gallon and as your cars get more efficient you have less dollars going into the pot even with more cars coming down here it's not the growth that you had plus you've got cost of that stuff going through the roof and that's something that's you know Road costs and things like that are totally separated from the Consumer Price Index because that's not the thing that the consumer buys we don't go out and buy a truckload of asphalt or we don't go out and buy a bunch of Engineers to put this stuff together so you know we we've got stuff that we're dealing with but we don't control and that's the hard part about this stff and as far as what the future is that whole thing is again we're dealing with the Port Orange Planning and Zoning commission so we're looking at what it's our land use rules and that kind of stuff those things were set up they get periodically reviewed and these guys are trying to work inside the rules to give us the best thing that they can so when you're sitting there as a citizen it gets frustrating because you feel like well nothing's moving well a lot of it can't because it it has to go through to you know the whole Planning Commission uh or the the whole zoning uh review that has to go through State commission you know you get all kinds of different things going on there so it gets a little bit frustrating but I think as we've said this is a good project that's doing much better than what we could have had if we'd let it alone I really like the way they're trying to work with the drainage uh the transportation we're we're you know we don't we can't control the stuff that we'd love to on that so we're kind of stuck so now no we're but we're still not Orlando so that's good yeah great Lo Angeles whatever yeah and it it's it's it gets frustrating there's absolutely no doubt about it so that I just want to throw that in if there's nothing else I will entertain a motion we have to open these separately and vote on the first one first so just again yes and remember when you make the motion to add the policy make a motion to go ahead that was my question so are you we we don't separate the policy out we can put the policy added into the first motion and you're sure that's going to make everybody happy with I've seen the yeah well that's why I keep asking because I've seen these things kind of come back and on a different board we had to come back and have and revote yes you can't approve without the approv right correct all right just want to make sure that good counselor just make sure you add the motion you or you add the policy policy make a motion to approve case number cpam m-231 uh including the policy recommendation add Fu element policy on uh density limits second call the rooll please Stan Schmidt yes Scott Stager yes Mark bowling yes Maria Mills Bennett yes B Bill Fey yes Lance green no Thomas Jordan no motion passes I'll entertain a motion for the next case make a motion to approve case number pza a-23 z007 wasn't anything on that was it no second call the rooll please Stan Smith yes Scott Stager yes Mark bowling yes Maria Mills Bennett yes Bo bofam yes Lance green no Thomas Jordan no motion passes um because I know everybody's um interested in carrying through with it following this project through Penelope Cruise planning um this both these items will be scheduled for first reading at City City Council on March the 5th that's all I have you will be notified by email too if you're on my list thank you all righty then other business commissioner comments nothing uh I just say listen these things are tough uh all these projects are difficult uh I understand the traffic issue I I really do I avoid I will acknowledge that I have used meline more than once in an effort to not use dun Len uh so I'm I'm a cause of some of your headache and I apologize for that in advance um that that issue at dun loton there is a it's a nightmare um it is way too complicated to address at this panel we we're not at that level and the fact that we have at least four entities that control roads in our Marketplace W it's it's a challenge I think all we can do is continue to advocate for making those changes to lean in uh when you see those sales tax issues come up make sure that you find out what they're really talking about and um hold your elected officials accountable if they're going to take your money make sure they're spending it in the right place and if you do that in all likelihood you'll see more people who are willing to invest in these projects going forward but right now we're in a place where the dollars don't exist the applicants have the right to do the things that they're doing in fact could sprawl that out quite a bit more I like the idea of density and building up a little bit more it protects things that you guys have been talking about trees Open Spaces green spaces that's where you're seeing more of the people in the country going let's pull them together let's build up instead of out and let's create parks and make these things better um tough decisions I understand why you guys voted against I just wanted to say thanks for this project I think it's the better use of the land mark I'm good B Lance no Tom yeah know it's interesting say you mentioned about you know not wanting Apartments you prefer to have single family hes I think that was Miss Hutchinson right yeah did you bring that up I live in an apartment uh we sold a house six years ago and I'm so glad I did I have no maintenance I don't have to pay for roof I don't have to pay for for homeowners insurance or wind insurance I got a guy that cuts the lawn that you know he's already included I got the pool I got the gym I love it and what's interesting is the mix in our apartment complex is probably 30% students who go to Palmer or uh or Embry Riddle and uh 30% of just folks that live in apartments uh you know middle middleaged so to speak or younger and then there's old people like us and we don't want houses we don't want to have to do that stuff anymore so there is and if they wouldn't be building apartments there wasn't a market for it right that's what it comes down to nobody's going to put up a commercial building or an apartment complex if they don't think they can make money or pretty sure they can't they can make money at it so but staff does a great job here for the city of Port Orange you guys have no idea how much work they put in for all these projects so uh I know they're very good at communicating with the public and communicating with the with the developers and staff so thanks a lot appreciate all the folks things you folks do and FYI why we're talking about developments outside of our city that are going to ultimately affect our city we make way better decisions than they do so way better decisions so be thankful for that uh staff comments oh come on Tim you gotta have something to [Laughter] say any last public comments Dwight Durant Orman Beach uh 286 Booth Road I'm talking as a citizen now that's lived here for probably 35 years and been in this building a lot in front of your dad and I just to to to add a little positive to what the things that you're saying um it's not all just a grab out there and I'll use this project as an example um you've already proved it so I'm not selling anything um uh the crossy started planning 25 years in advance they are responsible for Williamson uh mateline and New Yorktown and we're this close I think to having enough money for Yorktown to be extended we've already designed it it's ready um it's on the Shelf so this project may be the one that the impact fees bring to get that road built that will um hopefully alleviate some of the issues you're seeing on D so it's not uh the process is working somewhat it just started late um I was here in the same Chambers getting the Groves approved uh and Town Park approved hearing the same comments uh and and fortunately they were approved and and you have citizens that that live here as a result of that so I think you're my dad was super mad about the Groves yes my dad was sitting here mad about the growes right we see it for instance on Walmarts all the time you know when Walmarts come in oh no we can't have that well go try to say you're going to buy the Walmart tear it down and plant pine trees you'll have this place packed wait a minute I use Walmart no you can't do that so um I hear that and and all these concerns are valid concerns uh your citizens live here we're coming here and we're going to change something that they sue but I I will give you our commitment that we'll do our best not to provide any adverse impact to them so thank you is your town is that within the three mile radius of of this intersection it could be applied to that yes I think so yes so this whole Corridor is is of Interest too so make a huge difference absolutely there's there's unintended benefits that you know development does bring we've been waiting on Yorktown a long time we've designed it twice for you already we're ready thank you so much anybody else motion to a journ move