Jun United States of America stands na indivisible liy and justice m cler i that rooll please Mayor John Eric Hoover here vice mayor Linda Rodriguez here councilman David Mueller here councilwoman Cherokee Samson here councilman Robert Hub here City attorney man Meer here City excuse me city manager Matthew CER thank first up com general public I have no signups anyone like to speak show hands bring it back no yes okay uh next up comments from the city manager pass that to Mr CPP for any comments this evening moving right along comments from the mayor city council I'll start with counc Hub on my right any comments no at the moment Council Mueller councilwoman Samson n vice mayor Rodriguez no thank you I as well have none moving on to council business item number one recreational open burning I will pass it to Mr coer for introduction good evening thank you um so the first item uh kind of stems uh from the standpoint that uh there's been a conversation internal conversation uh between Fire Chief and myself regarding open burning and right now if you could put up the the definition or the uh ordinance please So currently in in the city code that particular section 265 burning is all we have in terms of guidance on open burning within the the city no garbage refu trash or other discarded matter including trees or vegetation shall be burned in an open pit incinerator furnace or other similar incinerating device or directly upon any real property within corporate limits of the city adding time and so in speaking with the the fire chief about this um he uh he indicated that some point in the past the City attorney had uh put an opinion forward that says well this this isn't recreational burning this is other burning this is open burning recreational burning is a different a different animal um unfortunately within the code there isn't really anything that talks about recreational burning that that's that's the ex and if you remember during our our conversations about the RV Park rules and regulations we had that one section that talked about recreational burning and I think at that time there was maybe a brief conversation about well where where should recreational burning happen should it happen in a structure or a pit or whatever and that was kind of really the impetus behind this conversation started with the fire chief So based upon the fact that there really was no regulations around um recreational Burning uh the fire department Fire Chief came up with an internal policy that he gave to his uh firefighters that when the call came that there was an open burning complaint um how they could go out and enforce what was recreational uh burning versus a regular open burning further add to uh this conversation here recently you may have seen that the county has issued a a no burn no open burning [Music] notice notice that's the word notice in for the county of course that's for unincorporated areas it doesn't include the city and we know unfortunately what can happen um with these open burnings recreational as well if they're not uh well maintained and regulated so if all that kind of be in the background uh what we put in your packet is something that I believe is kind of the base of what the fire chief had given to uh his firefighters When A call came in about a recreational uh birding updated a little bit for the things that he felt needs to be in a ordinance if we were to proceed so tonight I guess the questions that have to be answered is one do you want to um allow recreational buring within the city um and not just have it as a policy for the fire chief to decide um and if you do you know is what the fire chief is is putting out there as kind of the basis for that acceptable so we can put it together and bring it back to you as an ordinance if I could get clarification from you um on when the county issues something of that nature like an O band for the county obviously we're part of the county um is there anything that if they issue like that are all those things they don't usurp our Authority within our boundary the most recent one I can tell you I've even read it it doesn't it does not include cities it's just unincorporated County so the city can then issue their own and part of your code lets your city manager declare the emergency based on the fact that the state or county has declared the emergency or if he finds this circumstances of course just the emergency in this city he can do that and within I think it's two business days you guys have to ratify that our resolution so in there no burn it's specifically said unincorporated are they able to just out of curiosity are they able to put out a countywide no burn that would preempt us from I don't I didn't I've not researched that I don't know the answer without looking for sure but I would think there would have to be something that gives them the power to do that per deping what they what issue is you know different things could be could be addressed differently um but I don't Matt M Matt knows he rais I don't know but my position on that would be because we we do have our own Charter and our home role that that we have the Pres unless the state says otherwise and I don't think the state grants that authority to do that not on burning that I've seen right exactly there's no preemption from this yeah interesting I just yeah something like that you would think that we would fall under the county for that because you decided to be your own City you're on your own good enough I guess I didn't know if uh Chief if you wanted to add anything to my very brief and awkward uh introduction no like I said this said came up because the verbiage does have some some basic conflict in the verbiage so we were just trying to either clarify that all the way across the board either you guys not want any burning in the city which makes it really simple uh or do you want to allow people to have campfires and RV sites to have campfires and if so I went through a pretty rigorous list of what the county currently has and I actually added a little more to that it's going include some Churches and ceremonial stuff but um um we kind of have it all laid out either way for you guys to go in either direction that that you want to go we just needing guidance on which way you want to go and me and Mr CER pull a trigger on getting it done for you do a quick Round Table see are you guys on board is there any objection to having recreational boarding nope I we should allow it no but again I think that the verbiage needs to be clear and the Florida Department of um Environmental Protection they have verbiage on their website that we could use you know what I mean and that would keep us in guidelines with State and you know state regulations so Sly everybody agrees we should have recreational burning right okay so now we'll dig into what that means advice to move forward and then I'll put together a very I mean I already have it a very detailed list if you are going to burn in our city this is what you're going to have to comply with and then I'll get this to Mr CER for you guys to put on the agenda and approve way we'll look at what you found for FD and I think you may have said this but I when I was looking through this when the the band came out from the county the counties is quite detailed I think you said you may have followed some of what they had but we can look at theirs too and kind of bring a draft back to you guys yeah this this particular one that I have laid out is even more detailed and stringent than what the county has like I said I also include because we have some churches that that we have had some issues with in the past that do some some Burns so I included things that would be approved for ceremonial burning and that the county doesn't that there's a little more vake so I wanted it to be a little more if we're going to burn in the city I want to make sure that we have all our bases covered so back to my my initial question based on this thing we have here number one States no recreational opening burning will be permitted during State County City burn band so in this case the county issues a burn band we automatically fall under it based on this right you'd still have the city would still have to issue one you we we have to issue our own the county was very specific and unincorporated we have this says that no recreational open burning will be permitted during let me let me say that that again what what this is is a set of a set of thank are you getting now is that what it is set of guidelines the chief thinks are appropriate put into a ordinance the actual draft of the ordinance is going to be going on someone else's short or so it's going to look different than this and we'll we'll flesh out you know those things that are strictly you know City domain issues that we we would do so in that ordinance we wouldn't be deferring to the county I think I understand what Eric saying that number one I would have I thought the same thing put in place I thought the same thing so I understand where he's coming from that's we're saying one thing but this I read this first number one as that language will be different yeah this is basically just a dra it's just a set of a set of guidelines y will educate the final draft of the uh or did you want to spend some time to go through any of these or just do that later um well I would ask if there's anything in here that sticks out to you that you don't want to include or you think needs to be included be helpful now because at some point you're going to have that list to us Yeah the more I have now the better the L time later right get here's some ideas that I have say no recreational burning allowed during a windy condition well what is a winding condition is there sort mile per hour that's that's a threshold that that's left to the discretion of officer because it's just like out in the Gulf it may be windy here but not windy there so also are there any penalties def violating one um to be determined we can refer it to forestry so if you violate the burn ordinance that we have in place we can forward it to forestry and Forestry can handle the follow up and and keep us out of the the litigation part of it unless we wanted to put a violation feet in there then it would fall on Code Enforcement I believe yeah most likely it yeah we typically start off with warnings just warn them and educate them and warn them and educate them and if they're out there burning copper wire and stuff then we just refer it to the state we handle it make them put it out take the evidence refer it to the state division of Forestry and let them their officers follow up right and then item seven when it talks about all commercial make cooking devices gas charcoal electric drills PL smokers and rolling containers must be a minimum of 10 ft from any improved structure um I don't think some of those cords have electric girls have a 10 foot they should get an extension for but it says commercial grade commcial grade and so that's not homeowners and that's an NFPA requirement okay they don't want girls underneath porches and even though a lot of people do put them there but we're not out there policing that but I can't uh I can't not include it when it's an NFPA requirement so when it says commercial made cooking devices somebody that you purchased something you went and purchased you went to Lowe's or Home Depot and purch any Grill basically anything you purchased and so yep you know we have yes we have outdoor kitchens and and we you know that are under yeah we take a step further than that inside our homes we have stoves right so so I guess why why is there so much restriction on a grill smoker actually there's a lot more people make pizza oven and some salt work that's the problem there's homemade ones and that so why that's why the code this was taken right out of nfba word for word what their recommendations are I make up 10 feet it's came right out of the code they're built pretty good with bricks I mean they're pretty so people make some awesome ones but that's why in the county we did the same thing we're like you know some people can't afford to go buy a commercial fire pit so they're like what's wrong with you know putting some rocks on the ground and digging the area out and and there's nothing wrong with that as long as it's surrounded by something non-combustible whether it be a dirt Mound or rocks and it's so that's why we put a size limitation you look at number 10 there's a size limitation of 3 by3 you know what I mean so that's why we that's why that's written that way to keep the sizes small and then allow the people that afford nice commercial fiber pits or this or that to be able to build and create their own I've seen some that were built there I think are nicer than some of the commercial ones but the only difference is they're not you all rated and tested but right well I guess my concern is is that I I've got to believe that most people that have a grill or outdoor kitchen or whatever is in a is in an open roofed structure you would think that that's just not the case that's really I I see so many people who have their girl like right up underneath the tree or right up on their porch underneath a wooden well that's that's that's fine but saying this at least you seen vinyl sighting get melted happens I get that just go to YouTube watch funny of them I mean you can leave the any one of these particular ones want out but I would not alter any of them because they're straight cut and dry out of nfba Florida fire pring Cod I would think grills smokers um you know a turkey fres is a little different obious so you're not going to have that with a awning but a grill has a has a cover that goes over not open flying you're gonna have covered up cooking device similar to stove in the house I don't know why that would you would need that to be Not underneath something right yeah but that's from the I get that fire protection I get not a decision I made so if you as Council decide to leave those out and leave it up to our discretion when we show up you're still going to follow NPA anyway recommendation you know what I mean so but it's it's it's up to you guys if you wanted to leave some of these out and leave it to discretion that's again it's up to you I tried to make it as inclusive allinclusive as could be and cut and dry to where there was no gray areas like we have now now we have a lot of gray areas now I like the addition of all of the specific prohibited materials because it's not in our code and I think that's that's really I really like that it is and and listen reality is most of the time it's not a problem it doesn't really deal with people that were having campfires in their backyard I said we don't go driveing around with measure measuring everybody that's got a barbecue grill but you know it's when we get called there for an issue or barbecue grill catches on fire and burns the house down it is what it is I got a pit in my backyard I got ring this then I got around around it yeah that's perfect I and then all we did we had setback requirements just to make sure that we're not too close to the roof too close to your neighbor or too close to Woods it's up by the water so y oh see that's perfect and that's that's really the intention of what some years weren't here when the original Council had brought this idea up that was the original intention we live by the water and people have decent Siz Lots why can't they have a little campfire and it's been brought up numerous times so you're you're corrected addressing a g all have some shmores safely so again going back to number seven I get this coming out of NFP and you're saying we could we can modify this or not I will not rewrite that no but you can take it out if you don't if you don't want number seven to be in there we take it out but I'm not going to rewrite I'm not going to go against what NFPA you're saying all It's All or Nothing exactly well my concern is is I I go out listen I I get it I get it I know what your concern is there but I I I can't be put in a position to alter it and tweak it so it's either you either have to age the way the it's written in the way nfda and part of fire prevention code wanted it out and leave it to the discretion of us as we come because I can't be put in the position to Al alter that sentence that if you know what I mean well so I guess a question I have in regards NFP because I if that's the case there should be never any cause for a permitting of a outdoor kitchen am I right never any cause for permitting because you could could not meet number seven but there's there's construction involved and and piping involved and a lot more things on his end that are involved for the permitting process other than just the grill itself right but it's going to be within 10 feet of an improvement structure we have someone who would like to Mike Michael FZ 5045 water Side Drive um the code when we're building a structure and he can contend to this when you're building a a fireplace there's a spark arrestor at the top of it which is where they pull the code Disney pulls their code for having the fire screen over top of a fire pit is for directly from the floor to building code on having what type of spark AR resting you have to have in a fireplace um for outdoor kitchens you can't do a cooking appliance in an outdoor kitchen without a hood without an approved fire hood and then that's got be ducted properly to to take that heat away from the thing so I think my take on any of this was kind of like what we talked about in pnz without getting the city to be overly critical and very specific and making the code really really complex it's much easier for the city to to rely on NFPA and fortif Fire Prevention and say that we're going to allow you know allow fire pits of certain sizes with certain regulations with these certain setbacks and as far as Appliance specific things we're going to defer to the NFPA and Florida building code you can write that into Council into our code that you can refer to NEC for electrical you can refer to those things so that you don't have to get super specific in our code you can rely on the national side of things because what's also nice about that is as the code changes or updates you don't have to constantly keep changing your like when you buy a grill it's got a sticker on it that nobody ever reads that says don't use this under an overhang mm don't put it near this the reason you guys need to put it in code is so that when insurance comes in after that guy burns the house down because he used it under the overhang it wasn't something that their lawyers can come back against you and say well nothing in the in our building code says I couldn't put it underneath my porch it's better for you to stay away from that INR code and rely on UL in you know NFPA NEC and the floorida building code because then it's like no the the manufacturer spec says don't put it underneath this and don't you do this so putting anything in that detracts from that just sets us up for a problem I mean I think the goal behind this at least it seems like is to let us put fire pits in with some control over where they go in so that because if you don't and you don't put controls in some somebody's going to dig a big hole in the backyard and drag a piece of chain link over top of it and go no what I put fire mesh over it you know I look that's you know trash bags are what we like to burn you know they're going you're just trying to create something that he can enforce so that when he goes out there and they go nothing in the ordinance says that I can't have this and his hands are tied it's better to just lay in my opinion to lay back on NFPA and say okay this is how this is how all of this works um and we're going to put some restrictions on where you can put the fire pit and how big it can be but other than that we're going to stick to UL we're going to stick to that these these building code regulations cuz the the outdoor kitchen thing he's going to be he's got requirements on what you can put in there even a flat top has to have X amount of ventilation it's got to be pulled away from it the backings have to be certain Fire Stop materials nobody builds like that but that's how it's supposed to be um they try to sneak stuff in all the time but that's um that's how it's supposed to be built is with all those pieces in place so thank you thank you makes sense comments on any of this stuff on number 10 the three three I guess that's at NFP as well y they don't have 4x4s well the reason I asked is because I know that they're out there and again how these how the market of stuff if there's a lot of things in there that are out there but at the end of the day again I have to create a guideline that we can go by enforce and that mfp no it's it's followed through NFPA and the and the Florida fire service this is all their recommendations again I didn't make any of this up I took recommendations from people much smarter more involved than I am took those recommendations and put them together in an inclusive document okay he just going to be description anyway at the end of the day I don't go out there with a tape measure you know if they have a 3 by3 and they're burning a Christmas tree it's got 40 foot Flames we got a problem you know what I mean so the the goal isn't to be restrictive the goal is to to make sure that people are being compliant and when they're not compliant we have the ammunition we need to stop it or change it yeah I just I just I just Envision some point down the future a resident calls and says I just got a ticket for my three and a half by three and a half thing like I said I don't walk around with a tape measure you don't long as the people are being reasonable and within you know within regulation for the most part we're going to do what we're going to do we're going to allow them to do what they're doing the only other comments I had on the on the ceremonial fires um the the way this was laid out and again this I know this is just kind of a draft or whatever but it was I think 13 14 definition related and 15 got into what that was just maybe lay that out a little differently but I think that' probably go into the ordinance and and those came about and we got with uh the Florida fire service on those because we had a church that was burning and we went out there and they questioned it and started getting on us about ceremonial fir so we had a turn around on them to show them in W constitutes a ceremonial fire and there is size limitations to those as well so we were just trying to get them being crazy yeah and those size limitations are also from the NFP yeah and the FL fire service y thank you again I didn't make none of those up none of these are my idea I'm a copy and paste guy when I can keep keep it keeps me safe how loose is a ceremonial fire okay that's pretty loose that's like asking them how loose is the speed limit on 19 how far are you willing to go sir don't put me in this I mean I'm celebrating my uh my Thursday well again there's definitions for ceremonial fire they're Improvement structure combustible material fences any overhangs branches they can't be they got to be with a minimum of 100 feet off from public road 150 ft from an occupied building and then above it it talks about with the c monial bonfire either a 3X3 pile but it's got to be less than 8 by8 so we allow you to make a lot bigger more of a bonfire type fire for ceremonial purposes is because some of the churches um you we're talking about what they use them for and if you go to number 13 s fire means fire is used for ceremonies sponsored by educational cultural or institutions so it has to be at a church or a church function that's sponsored so if they're sponsoring one at your house then okay but you're going to have to meet all those setbacks which most of the houses in a p Richie won't meet this those setbacks that's why the Florida fire service more than doubled the setback requirements for that because if you're burning at a church or church property you're burning on acreage so to speak you're not burning at a residential house but that's why they increased all of those numbers would it be I I think it would probably be safe if if they're going to have a bonfire or a ceremonial fire and they have the lot to do it that they should with maybe require permission you one of you guys can go out there and tell them to do some don'ts maybe before that's what I mean at asking for a permit ahead of time so what we do if when we get that if this gets approved then I would forward that to the Florida fire service to make sure that they're aware as well because at the end of the day if they're not in compliance that's who I'm going to call to come out and the state let the state and and get get involved so I can step out of that whole thing and let them be involved in enforcing the state laws and the finding if there's going to be any fines involved a lot of work Gary thank you because it because it has been brought up numerous times over the over the years and especially with the fire that you just fought we need we need to have some parameters so thank you I mean it is a you know a little bit of a slippery slope in a way like I said it's so easy for me to say no burning because then there's no gray area anything you light I'm blowing out you know what I mean but reality is you know people want to enjoy the outdoors so I that's why this whole thing had came up the first time and I'm for it I live in Hudson I burn all the time we have campfires all the time and I think it's a great thing when it's done right but there has to be parameter and there can't be a lot of room in the parameters because people take advantage of that and then we wind up with the situations that we had so anything else on bur no okay moving on item number two any by public like to speak on that okay it number two discussion of flood damage prevention ordinance I'll pass it to Mr C for introduction thank you um Miss council's aware staff has been working to uh try to reduce the cost of flood insurance for res residents in the city um what is being discussed tonight and I'm going to turn most of this over to um Mike and Veronica to handle the the details on this but tonight uh is the discussion of of two topics one is uh making a change from the substant substantial damage from 50% of market value down to 40% and the second thing is lifting the free Bo from one foot to two foot now I'll let them explain what all that means um so I'll let you explain currently we have we're in a flood we're in a flood zone so FEMA puts out a map that says what our base what our base flood elevation is for any construction done here in the city for in let's use an example of 10 foot it also said you have to have not only that but you have at your design elevation which is one foot above that your finished floor for your first living floor is at that 11t area we're looking at moving it to two foot and what that does is it increases that ability if we have a storm come in that is greater than what is expected in a normal and it brings in higher flood um flood Waters and stuff like that it gives us that little extra buffer that's in there right now the last storm Fort Myers and all them had 18 and 20 inch storm surface so if we're at 10 foot your first level was pretty much underneath you know your first living area was pretty much underwater is this going to fix that no you're going to get freak storms but this is giving you that little bit extra to get us out of that area and in doing so it also helps increase our CRS credits which in returns gives all of the residents a discount on their blood insurance no it so it helps us in both ways it helps now keep in mind these are only for new construction homes and for homes that are below the base blood so these these ordinances are making it are are put are becoming more stringent than what femma because we're already compliant with what femma wants but we're making it more stringent with the sea level rise with all of the climate changes that are occurring with all of the storm surges coming in with the hurricane patterns the way they're coming in we're looking at getting inundated with more and more water so by putting these codes it benefits the community on the CRS for the rating system and it also helps those people who are investing into their home to get out of the special flood Hazard area currently right now we have 100 plus homes in a special flood Hazard area I can't tell you exactly because it's confidential exactly what homes are in a repetitive loss area but I can tell you that the city of Port Richie has 100 plus homes in a special flood Hazard area uh in the repetitive loss area um I can tell you in the past 12 years we have raised raed 10 homes through FEMA grants with Pasco County uh assistance we have raised over 10 uh eight eight homes out of the special flood Hazard area um with these types of Grants so there is there is ways to do things but making our codes more stringent is going to help us overall with our CRS points you just give me what what is a special threat area what is that like what is that I mean special flood Hazard area you said I thought you said repetitive loss threat what was the said special flood Hazard area I thinkal FL haard area that like below I mean the special flood Hazard area or is that area that's below base flood elevation you you have more chances and more likelihood of flooding so anything under what 10 foot or 11 foot you said well it depends depends on is that like an a zone so you have different Zone yeah so you have an A AE zone right you have a be Zone and those are the two zones that we will see here plus you have X zones City Hall is an X zone it's not in a flood zone it's high but on our west side and our East Side we have AE zones and we have the E zones your be zones are your high wind velocity zones those are built on pilings those are built more stringent those were built those are built with Breakaway walls to allow the flood waters to come in and the flood waters to go I think wave action is the your linoa your limit of moderate wave action um your AE zones are in a flood zone but they're allowed to be built on fil okay you don't have to build them on py okay okay so your question may be the the program Forerunner that you've allowed the city to purchase is going to help us track this okay okay so this all kind of ties in hand in hand and it's going to help us to track it elevation certificat currently we have online if you do not have an elevation certificate online now today you will have to hire a surveyor to get your elevation for your piece of property okay we can tell you what elevation you need to be at but a surveyor can tell you exactly where your land sits what gr you're at where your home has to be only a surveyor can do that okay and that's only for new construction right so this is only going to affect new construction and homes that are below the base flood elevation they're being lifted that are being lifted there's also programs out there uh FMA has a residential out program FMA also has the elevation lift program through the grants program that we send them so um I so for everybody listening I want you to know that we can get them in touch with the person at Pasco County who does help them and guides them through the process of lifting their homes if they choose to there is money out there from FEMA to help raise these homes out of the special flood Hazard area they are out there it is a process it's not something that happens overnight it is a process there is uh I say prerequisites that they have to meet in order for this job to take place but the city has worked um just sent over to Pasco County three addresses uh for elevation list so it is continuously happen happening and it can happen putting these codes into place will help our CRS point and it's going to help these things because the climate change is going to continue to happen the sea level rise is going to continue to happen and if we don't start making changes are we compliant with FMA guidelines and rules today yes we are we're trying to get ahead of it before they mandate it and so that that's what we're bringing forward as far as the the freeboard same asem now one foot above we are we're one foot above freeboard now currently is to go two foot basically so going a foot higher is going to help those that new construction help that so it doesn't make the road go higher it's not there's not going to be a drainage issue we're still going to have to follow all of that so people think sometimes if they go higher that means the roads higher that means they're putting up more fill that means that they're bringing in and so we're going to have a drainage issued no they're still going to have to bring in a drainage plan they're still going to have to follow all the same guidelines it's just moving it up on foot what's aete BL so raise a foot it's basically it's going be more than the foot and a 8 * 3 is 24 no no I'm talking about the extra foot you're going to go an extra block extra block so you're actually gonna in order to go another foot you can't go a foot you're going to go a foot and a half go they got 12 blocks no you're going to go have to go 12T if you're on ground then it depends on too on Mike FR 5045 water Side Drive okay so I that's what I do for a living for those of you who don't know me that's that's what unified Foundation do so I I've lifted several of the homes we've lifted in the neighborhood I'm in the middle ofing one now on Dedra um so height is not going to be an issue because we're going to excavate under the house anyway and the Footers are going to have to be on Virgin soil so we use usually go in 8 in increments and we will clear by at least that most of the residents in the neighborhood the average through the neighborhood is five through the town is about 5 feet grade right now 5et above navd um which is the national the North American vertical data it's a line that was created to kind of represent mean high tide um so all of these numbers you're talking about are a reference above sea level effective sea level um most people's grade is around 5 ft the closer to the water you get the higher the required elevation from FEMA but Fort Meers com homes that were compliant by 3 feet over the freeboard requirement in Fort Meers took four feet of water in that Storm still in their living first living floor so catastrophic storm we're not going to fix with code right what we can do is we can make it so that those people can afford to have real insurance by lowering the CRS um and I have this conversation all the time up and down the coast right now since all these storms this is all I do all day um the lowering the CRS so it's a it's a scale right lowering the CRS is going to lower the ratings you guys buy a big policy every year to so that FEMA will come in here and help when we have a disaster that policy goes down overall when we do this lower lowering the CRS lowers all the residents purchasable flood insurance this is the first time that we've ever seen the national flood insurance program since Ian Adalia the national flood insurance program up until up until right now has always been the insur of Last Resort like citizens right they they have to take you that is no longer the case if your home has taken more floods now that and if it's had floods that the total payout covers the current 50% of the current taxable value of the structure you have just received the last check that you'll ever get they will not renew you so we are going to be faced with residents that will not be able to get flood insurance on houses that are below the base flood if that if it's already been paid out to that point so if left unchecked if we leave it at 50% you get a lot of people we've had several in in town already that will get the contractor to swing the numbers in the contract after an event to look like it's less than 50% and they'll just put the house back together they get their insurance money they put the house back together his hands are tied because they they handed in a a a certified quote from a contractor that has an affidavit attached to it that says that yeah we're doing all the work under that number and then of course the homeowner pays that guy on on cash afterwards to do all the finish work go you know I'm never going to make it inside three minutes um and then what happens is we end up with a property that if FEMA makes one more change to that or nfip makes more change to that we've got a freshly remodeled home that we had to give permits to that is land value it's unsellable because it's uninsurable so the reason that FEMA is pushing and they're giving credits using CRS that's the only way they can kind of try to affect more change than what the the minimum base is is by giving us access to these credits by giving us access to these credits weally damaged if we set it at 40% yes you're going to have homeowners that are going to hit a spot where they simply cannot put their house back together but if you continue to allow them to skirt that by keeping the value higher all you're doing is setting them up for spending that money next year or the the following year the storms aren't going away right I mean we just took four flood events in the last year and only one of them was named the rest of them were afternoon thunderstorms that happen to be on a high tide with a Southwest wind right this is a change that we have to start putting in place and it's we've talked extensively about it I've talked with lots of counties and and municipalities about it it is a scale right you don't want to anger the citizens by going nope can't put your house back together you got to lift it or tear it down or move but you also don't want to let them continue to rebuild or add on or build additions onto houses that are below the base flood because you're just setting up a disaster later and the way the current rules are written when it comes to real estate if a bank forecloses on something or an investor buys a property that they never occupy as the as the occupant then when they go to sign disclosures to resell that property they can line right through the disclosures and say I have no knowledge of any of that I don't know if it's ever been flooded and you got people moving here from out of state that have an maybe even have an out of state realtor they come in the disclosures say that house has never been flooded they don't know the area they're buying these houses and they've been put back together with no permits they didn't take the drywall out they didn't mitigate the flood these are all things that are just setting the city up to have more more and more problems so I think it's a delicate balance a lot of towns madir Beach is a 4 foot freeboard because they do not believe that FEMA is adequate in their assessment of what the water level will be so they have a 4 foot freeboard and in a vzone where where the freeboard limit is the bottom of the lowest structural horizontal member now you you've got 15t columns to get to the first be I beam and then the house is sitting on top of that because they got to be you know that that residence has a 12 foot requirement and now we've got to throw all these extra all this extra freeboard on top of it I don't want to see us go to four foot freeboard because houses start looking weird sticks on little narrow things but I think a two- foot freeboard makes really good sense and the main reason the two- foot freeboard makes really good sense is because even if we build something to compliance so you build a brand new home that's absolutely compliant to today's standard and next year FEMA rewrites the maps and resets the base flood area for that spot where that house is 2 feet up they are compliant to code their flood insurance will be $122,000 a year because they are no longer Insurance compliant to the current FEMA listing so because FEMA is so wishy-washy on how they draw that map it's somebody in Washington DC looking at Satellite data and going sure that's where that line goes right that's 10t over there that's 11t over there having the two foot of freeboard gives our citizens a little more push before they run into that base floodline of where the the insurance is going to change pretty rapidly um the 40% I think is a reasonable push you are going to get citizens that are going to get mad at you um they won't get mad at you until we have another storm event that's when it's going to happen because they're going to get a storm event if they're not someone who's trying to slide in an addition and then that's where you give him the teeth to go nope no we're not you're below the base flood we're not putting you're not putting a 1500 foot addition on the back of this house so we can flood, 1500 more square feet the next time we have a storm but the average in the town is typically we need to go up about seven feet what I tell most people several of people in here I've given quotes to for their houses that are below the base flood by the time you go 6 feet you may as well go up to 9 and park under the house the houses get prettier you don't have stairs and then just fit use unusable space underneath there's lots of different ways we make these houses very pretty they get better architecturally we're putting 2024 compliant concrete structures underneath them and then we're pushing that across the board everywhere to make sure that these things meet all the new codes meet or exceed the new codes um but when you get done lifting one of these houses they're they're a concrete block on slab home sitting on a steel frame on a concrete ground floor parking structure they're way better suited to take a hurricane than any of these any of the new stuff that's out there that's just wood frame that barely meets the the 150 mph wind code so making these these things more these codes a little more stringent but giving him the teeth we they're working with the pnz board and working with you guys to try and rewrite codes to make elevation more amenable than tearing down and building new I mean right now it's $350 to $400 a foot to build a new Waterfront elevated home right elevations are a third of that so that's why we're trying to push this across the board throughout the state and FEMA's been very good we've we've worked with the Pasco County and the City of Port Richie specifically has done more grants than any other county in the state of Florida because your team and the Pasco County team is great at working with homeowners getting the grants ready and getting everything going I'm working with counties statewide right now that don't even have a grant writing program their citizens have no choice they're stuck they can't access the grant programs they can't do any of that so anytime you make these ordinances better in the long run for making sure that every eventually every building is flood compliant you get FEMA's attention you get Florida Department of Emergency Management's attention that you're a county that's working on that you're a city that's working on that and then when someone puts a grant through they go oh that's in Fort Richie yeah and those are the these policies are policies that we wrot that was with the guidance of of two individuals at Florida Department of Emergency Management and so they have to approve everything they have to look over everything they put the verbiage in there and they guide us and help us make write that we don't write that we tell them what our city needs what the community needs um and and and what would benefit the residents what would help in the CRS for the blood insurance but they guide the verbiage they they put all of this together and they also come here every three years and do a driveby of the city and they send us back a report on you know and if there's something that we did that they didn't know about we'll send them the information and stuff like that on some of the properties and stuff like the house of Mike's raising on Deedra that was one that they could know about so now they're asking us because they see that we're trying to take our city out of the flood zone and moving it back up so that they this we've been almost a year working with them on this so we put a lot of time and effort into it and I think it's a benefit for the citizens um in your packet I gave you it'll kind of give you a little idea that's if you kind of look get go to page the third page in there it gives you this is from fma's uh insurance thing in Florida right now there's 597965 flood insurance policies in the state with an average cost of insurance of $958 that's across the entire state if you flip the next page that's Port there's 652 policies in force and this is as of September 30th of 2022 they don't have the new data out yet but there's 652 policies and our average cost of flood insurance is $1,520 so we're already almost doubling the state average just in the city then you flip to the next page it get it breaks it down by county and if you remember if you go down to panel's county which pelis county on their CRS right now is at two we're at seven the lower the number the better discount to our citizens and the more stringent our our Cod are is it penel isn't a two pelis is a two yet their average cost is fairly High still right well you got to go by they're more Coastal than we are more you know bigger homes and things like that but but take a look at that even so with penel having more policies in place we're only $18 behind their average cost for Insurance good um remember too that we have a very limited amount of space here that's vzone so we have a very very limited strip number of of homes that are vzone rated a vzone policy starts at three times the rate of of an azone policy so pelis County that's got tremendous amounts everything on the beach everything within a quarter mile of the beach and everything on the inter Coastal side inside the fingers if you've got more than about about 450 ft of Open Water to your house the likelihood is pretty high that you're in a velocity Zone because there's enough distance there in open water for the wind to build waves less concerned about the winded about is wave action that builds up against the house and then when it washes away it takes sand with it so it undermines the foundation and then it drops and then it drops the foundation and lowers the house so that's why we have to put them on piles and peers and we have to do a whole bunch of extra work to make those stay up when we have that Fort Meers Beach I have clients that we had to put 13t of dirt back in the back in their yards before we could start working on the structure because as the water left the inter Coastal and washed back over Estero Boulevard it cut River it cut Ravines between the houses that were 12 to 13 feet deep one thing the Bedrock one thing the city that he brought up uh one thing that the city did do so we have uh let's use Harbor Point for an example that whole point the the whole area there was VE zone so when FEMA redid their maps in June of 2020 they a lot of ve they took all that out of the ve Zone and they made it AE zone so then we had people starting to develop in there that thought oh well we can just build on fil and not have to build breaking walls not have to do engineered events not have to you know build on piling so it's cheaper for them right what they failed to realize is with us doing that when female did those Maps the city of Port Richie adopted the limo so it and what that says is and that was one of the Cod that was one of the things that we that that we adopted that got us extra CRS points because it made it more restrictive so it it said okay we understand that Vima dropped you to an AE Zone but you still have to build it to the most highest code which is the ve standard because your property falls in the limo action the limit of Moder wave action so we adopted that code specifically to help those residents that are out there building million dooll homes say hey you don't just want to bring in Phill you want to put it on pilings and this is why and so that was another thing that we we adopted to help those homes in that area or anybody in the in the be Zone that dropped to the a zone so it helped them on their flood insurance but they still have to build it to the most restrictive then you flip over to the last the last page that on for 2022 Pasco County paid out well we had 1481 claims in Pasco for a total of$ 73.3 million in claims so I just want to give you guys some numbers of of where we're at even though we're small and don't have a lot of policies right still our citizens on average are paying $18 less than they are in that's huge for some of our some of our residents are paying outage amounts for this stuff and one of the things that is is going on now might be may be to attest to it is Bea is actually going around and auditing down south because of they're spending out all the money and all this stuff and they're continuously putting money into the same houses over and over over and over what they're finding is they're paying out the flood insurance is paying out right FEMA is giving everyone checks and they're not fixing the problem they're pocketing the problem they're trying to do it internally they're trying to not pull permits for it they're trying they're they're trying to circumvent what it's supposed to and the intent of it and so now what we're going to start to see and what we're seeing is now with these audits happening from FMA is that they're driving around every three years they do come on site here they do drive around with us and they want to look at homes that are above the base blood elevation and have turned their bottom floors into living another thing the city of Port Richie did was adopt the non-conversion agreement that says you cannot convert your bottom into living space that was another thing that gave us got us some CRS points for it it it's just putting policies in place to try to keep it you uniform and to try to keep everybody really to keep the the the flood insurance at a at a at a minimal cost um and keep everybody in compliance let me ask you a question because you just brought up something that makes me wonder how effective you could be if flood came through here like happened in with a oh I'm sorry we need to uh relocate to get the out of here need to relocate you can we I make a motion have you're going to have to wait about three more years son anyway um run payout do they share that information with you so you can effectively manage who's doing work and ensure that F on that property unfortunately we tried that with the last hurricane for example we drove around and we saw we took over 300 pictures 300 residents that we know for a fact were flooded they would not allow us in we got access into two or three homes out of every door we knocked on and every person we spoke to FEA went into every one of those houses that got a check guarantee it I'm sure how can we get that information shared at this level so that you can effectively do your job I I don't know how how that is transpired back to us I'm assuming that falls under the repetitive so we have a list we have a list in the office it is confidential I cannot share that it's a list that we get from FEMA for data purposes to see who's had or who's been in a repetitive FL FL in a flood right or who has filed a claim they only going to show up on paper if they filed a claim sure so if they didn't go through FEMA and they went through their insurance it's up to FEMA to get us that data right but once you have the data you know something occurred there there there was a payout right correct we don't get that data right away no but you have it now probably don't you from three years from three years but not from September no I won't get that data for probably another year how is it that they paid the data wrote the check they have an address it mailed or was deposited direct same thing we asked we've asked those questions why are we continuously pay you know we have a congressman sitting down here that we can probably lean on a little bit to get information uh is that something that we can follow up on no um so if I may FEMA has a um let me just pull this up quickly it's an information sharing access agreement so they're they're pretty clear I mean there's all kind like there's there's an entire list here of of how long it takes for you all to request the information what the process is and it's from the the Homeland Security office right so we've asked but we haven't received is that it takes time what's the period we did send an email last I have it here in uh late I want to say November of last year right and we just went to the conference a month ago and along with us there are several counties also and municip waiting for the same information so yes we did put the in the email out to them and we are waiting for them okay so it's basically a a back bur right Mike yeah so uh Cape Coral is dealing with this um Cape Coral took 4 foot of water ubiquitously across every resident and then they rode through Cod code enforcement had to ride through afterwards and of course everybody just ran to Home Depot and started tearing stuff out and got their buddies and started clearing the houses out and started putting stuff back together and code enforcement rode around and started dropping red tags on doors um and telling them to you know you're done I'm shutting it down you got to get out of here which these guys did when they could catch it right when they could catch it what changed is that they were they their hands were tied too what they got what they did down there and I don't know how we go about doing it what they did down there was they went to Army Corp of Engineers which is who rode around and did the initial assessment of everything that got flooded and they had Army Corp of Engineers develop a letter throughout the town of Fort Meers throughout Cape Coral that said that building looks damage that look Building looks like it was structurally damaged you can't move back into it until you provide from us for us a structural letter that says that it's clear and that g that granted code enforcement and FEMA access to all of those dwellings and a requirement that someone go in and inspect them and show what damage was done with pictures and everything else they that's how they set that up down there so I don't know how you guys would have to do it with code with code or how you'd have to do it with by giving him teeth um I know that the non-conversion agreement I was in here when we wrote that um we were very specific about making sure that it didn't violate 14th Amendment to allow him to just walk in and take pictures that he has to show probable cause and he has to go through a process and maybe there's a route for us to do that within the ordinance to give him the teeth to be able to go that house had 24 in of water and that house had 24 in of water and I've got an elevation certificate here that shows that you're the same height as those two prove to us that you you didn't take water or show me where the receipts are for the contractor that put this together right that's what they're doing cap Coral right now and they changed the code as of January 1st they changed the the rating that they get to use for how much the value is so if you're going to put it together yourself you and your buddies are going get get together go do it yourself you have to account for your labor in that quote so that they can find out if you were substantially damaged or not now what they're doing is they're going in and saying if you didn't pull a permit to put this house back together and we have pictures that show this road was underwater that house was definitely underwater you have to show me where this was done and it was done and you did the mold mitigation properly and if you can't show me a contractor's bid and and invoices for all the work that was done in here then we get to dictate what value there was on that house and at $84 a square foot which is what the new code is for interior work you Eclipse that 40 or 50% substantial damage limit very rapidly and if it's a double edge right if you can provide that contractor's document to code enforcement then they turn around and call dbpr and go you didn't pull a permit you did $235,000 Worth to work on this house and didn't pull a permit so it's it's a mess in South Florida right now that's why we want to write these ordinances the way we want to write them now we want to get ahead of this to give him the teeth to be able to go through and go no no no no no you know we have to be very upfront during the last event there was a lot of misinformation they had no idea what how much Drive wall can I change how much trim can I change like what's the mitigation procedure what's code and so the homeowners just jumped out there way ahead of him you've got all of them two days later out there trying to figure out how to repair their stuff and he's got one code enforcement guy in him trying to figure out who who got wet and who didn't get wet and try to stay ahead of it so we we definitely need to change the teeth in Code Enforcement when dealing with a storm event and find out what I don't know legally how much teeth you can give him but to give him the ability and cod forcement the ability to go in and go you know you we know this was wet how did you mitigate it you know now if you didn't tear any drywall out and you can show us from a mold mitigation person that they came in here and drilled holes right above the base and they sprayed bleach in there and that's an adequate approved methodology for mold mitigation because you only had three inches of water or something like that that's fine but we need to give him the teeth to be able to do it we don't have code for that right now he's got to kind of fall under the if you won't let me in I can't go in and take pictures I have to guess that you're doing something wrong outside um and maybe it's a way to it's something we can amend in the code to give him that ability to do that because if we don't what ends up happening is FEMA sees that we let somebody put a bunch of people put their stuff back together and they pull back from us they don't want to help us out they don't want to throw grant money at us right now Port Richie is in the focus of fdem and FEMA because we've put a lot of policies in place and we we are doing a lot of Grant lifting we're about to lift three or four right now that are waiting on on changes at the county that have already signed their agreements to lift right here right in town the county is pushing you guys have been this town has been in every single FEMA meeting for the last five years at least one of the houses we're lifting in this town has been up on the big TV and our guy from Pasco County has been in there and on texting me all right they're asking how much that house weigh the blue one on Bay and I'm like okay it was this feing him information so that he can tell the the crowd what's going on fdm is watching fdm and FEMA want a Target space It was supposed to be new sua beach they brought a really crappy contractor in they trashed two houses in the lift process and the city bailed on the program the county wants to get Fe FEMA's looking for a test bed to come in and go where we're going to Grant every home that's below the base flood we want to see every home in this neighborhood we want to show that we can lift an entire neighborhood or an entire town bring it up bring the roads up do every get get it all done this is how you do it because if they can prove that model FEMA's goal is is simple to 10 years from now or 15 years from now to never have to have this conversation again everything that can be lifted is either been lifted or destroyed and rebuilt as a new as a new home so they're going to go they're going to throw buckets of money after a community that's showing that they're trying to become as compliant as they can possibly be there's huge grant money available Lee County pulled 1.4 billion do in hmgp hmgp funds after after Hurricane Ian they're only going to lift 32 houses with that they're going to use less than $10 million in in lift mitigation the rest of that money went into the community and it's all grant money available after a flood because they went in and went nope we going to rewrite every codes we're going to make it we're going to make this place a FEMA showcase that's what we have the opportunity to do here this is the first start but we have the ability to build a showcase here that shows that every time we have the opportunity for him to get a house out of the flood by either condemning it because it's doesn't meet the the substantial damage level or them helping write a grant to some someone who's a fixed income we've got so many ways to pay for that at this point that if you get a grant and you can't figure out how to help pay for that then you didn't do any research I mean we've got their lenders are chomping at the bit to throw loans at people to do these construction loans because FEMA is going to repay it what bank wouldn't do that right they get 7% for six months and then they get their money back that's the an ideal mortgage scenario so there's a ton of ways to do this for the citizens but we have to have legislation in place that makes that work and the more things we can do that make FEMA happy the more likely they are to dump that bucket our Direction um and if they do they were offering they were offering $61 million to that community in newart Beach they were going to lift an entire neighborhood and unfortunately they they let an idiot in be involved in the grant process and they brought in the lowest bidder the lowest lift bidder and that guy came in and he broke two houses and and the city backed out of didn't want to be involved uh we have a great working relationship I'm not pitching my company I'm just saying we have a great working relationship there are good contractors in the state um and the and the county and Dem are excited about seeing this happen that's why we got four grants we got four grants I wrote twice as many Grant applications in penel County they got two so we're doing something right my hope would be that we continue that right cuz it's it is going to be a push like I said we are we going to get some push back from it from citizens the next time he has to say no sorry you met your 40% you know you're 42% of your taxable value I can't let you rebuild this you're going to have to go up right they're going to complain they're going to throw a fit they're going to get mad at him they're going to cuss and throw a fit and and they may sell it's the nature of where we are right now in this environment right there is so much land for sale right now in Fort Meers and in down in Lee County right now that brand beautifully permitted remodeled homes because they were worth $2 million they had the room in the 50% budget to put the house back together they're completely remodeled they're gorgeous on gorgeous canals with a view of the beach they are not sellable nobody's buying them so property values down there are dropping Like a Rock if you want to invest Now's the Time In For Myers you're probably going to get wet you guys want to do it what I'm saying is this will raise our property values every one of these we put in the air lowers the CRS rating and raises the overall property values it raises your tax Bas right these houses are going up now I will push all day long for you guys to work with the county because the state the people who don't live on the water didn't vote for the tax breaks for people who who lift for flood mitigation there would that was on the books what four years ago there was an ordinance that was put up to allow property tax breaks so that you could maintain your housing cap your save our homes cap and you could Elevate the home and not take a big tax penalty in property taxes and of course because most of the state doesn't live on the water it didn't pass now counties are doing it county by county with their property assessors they're trying to pass those rules and I've been talking with Congress people and everything else trying to get that pushed as as much as we can again something that we could talk to them about or you guys could talk about within the tax code for Port Richie right of not letting you know letting keeping a cap on that if they do a flood I have customers that will not do a lift if it's going to mean that like I got a D guy in Davis Island is like no wait dude I've own this house for 30 years you know I pay I pay $6,000 a year in property taxes if I tear this down and I build a brand new one it's going to be $660,000 a year in Texas because it's new construction on Davis Island so he's like no way well I talked to the property appraiser and he went no it's going to go up by the cost of a new of 2200 feet of garage because that's what you're building in it's still the same house it doesn't get a new CEO it's still 1953 it'll be a remodeled 1953 twostory with a sixc car garage downstairs and he'll get a tax bump for the sixc car garage as if you build an addition but it's not going to change his Homestead because the property appraiser is willing to play that to work that game those are things that we have to start considering because the more conducive we make the environment for people to elevate or tear down or use any of the other programs there's a purchase program where the county will purchase the land and tear the house down because it's more costeffective at that point to tear that house down and just resell the land if the house is just not worth a lot there are programs where they will give them money to tear the house down and build a big pretty new thing that's going to get you four times the tax money there's lots of Grant programs available that but all of them lead to me retiring early because there's nothing left in the area that I want and that's the goal right the goal is to get you guys to never deal it I want him to be like hey we got wet yeah we'll go at 9: everybody's safe everybody's on the second floor drinking margaritas because nobody's below Bas flood right nobody's climbing up on their roof because there's 5et of water in their house there's every every customer I have that I've ever lifted a house is like you have no idea what it's like to watch the to to know the storm is coming and sit on the second floor and be like might have to get mulled out of the pool that's the worst thing they're going to have to deal with right so it's peace of mind for the neighborhood it keeps them from having to chase PE you know to rescue people because they're living in a house that's going to get wet right and it we recover so fast after a storm right that and all the rates go down every one of these things we lift the flood insurance is less than a grand you still maintain flood insurance because you have to but it's cheap because you're compliant now so there's this is a golden opportunity right now to stay to paddle ahead of the wave a little bit and be proactive in front of FEMA and let FEMA go wow that's that's the test bed that's how we want to see communities do it right some good press for poor Richie would be good so so just to piggyback on what Mike was saying on the teeth for enforcement right now there's three and I've said this before in other meetings there's three ways I can enter a property open permit permission from the landowner or an administrative warrant and as the City attorney will tell you we applied A administrative warrant to to a resident who had enclosed his bottom floor of his house but the last line in the Florida statute says that is not operable for an administrative warrant on an owner occupied property we know we had the we had the photos the gentleman was renting it out as an apartment we actually went to court and the judge threw it out so we have teeth there and as Mr Mueller will probably know most of our code enforcements that I write are for no permit and I would venture to say just spitballing 80% of those are from the last flood because we drove out the old code enforcement officer and I drove out at four o'clock in the morning when storm kind of Cl calmed down drove around check the road so fire and PD could do their thing and not take a million dollar equipment down flooded roads and then once the light came on one of the firemen and cod and myself drove around and we took over 300 pictures of high water lines on properties gave everything a couple days to to resend Veronica myself and another one of our staff went out and we stopped we went by every property knocked on every single door that we had pictures from and it was less than a handful that allowed us any access at so it it's I understand why a lot of folks don't want to do it I have a reputation but I just want everything be done the right way I want everybody to be safe I want everybody in their home in the city to be safe and and have a quality of life by putting these ordinance in places it's going to help the city on the flood it's going to help the the citizens with their added Insurance costs and eventually we're going to bring this whole city up out of a flood plane and we're not going to hopefully we're not going to have to deal with these issues on the flood as much as we are anymore so that's my little SP one last thing sure every pre-1980 home that I've worked on in the city that went through the 93 or the No Name storm in '93 every single one of them when we've pulled the kitchen out of them in a remodel has had black mold on the wall behind the c the cabinets because they did not claim and they did not mitigate and those people every owner owner of those buildings since those since the 93 storm has been living in a black mold environment and that's what happens when you don't give him the ability to go in and and make people have to mitigate properly they cut Corners they go in they just put some fans up and go man we only took like six inches of water and it was gone in like 10 minutes it's fine drywall Wicks four feet up in less than an hour it's wet it's growing something this is Florida it's growing something so this it's a health hazard these are all all of these things are reasons to get the teeth into this to do this again are we going to anger some citizens when it comes time to telling them that they can't have a permit to get their work done absolutely are they going to be grumpy about it yes 10 years from now will that matter no every house will be in the air or or mitigated and we won't have that problem you're never going to make everybody happy anyway um but it's a safety risk right as a realtor the number of houses that I've gone through that we've lost the deal in Florida because it was improperly mitigated back in the day and now you go in and you run a mold test in these things and they're a disaster and you can't find it they run the it's got a new AC system it's got all new insulation I don't understand how we have any mold and you pull a vanity cabinet away and there's a black Square on the wall the shape of the vanity cabinet where they haven't been able to paint and it's growing in the drywall so just there's more reasons why that giving him some teeth and giving them the ability figuring out a way to give them the ability to make sure this doesn't happen you know will we be will we people be grumpy for a while sure as we go through storms but we will eventually get every single property compliant and then you can raise the roads yeah so you guys have fantastic s job I mean I was on board with this way back half hour 45 minutes ago so no Riner stuff here we we need some some stuff here there now we the couple things I had on it on the teeth where are those the teeth allowing you to do that is that what are we adding to that because I didn't see that I'm not even sure what that is well the The Teeth part about it is I mean I have the ability to do things now I just can't go walk in somebody's house but going out being more we put some stuff in place we've got some stuff from tea as well piggyback on what Michael was talking about about the permit process with somebody come in and say oh I'm only doing this for eight grand FL of building code says that it's basically it my determination of what the value is going to be when we go out and actually meet folks out there we're only looking at the things that are permittable FEMA looks at everything that's going to put that house back to the original pre flood stage so some of the things that we'll go out there and look at like cabinets baseboards interior doors flooring paint those are not permittable items so when I go out there and look at something I'm allowing somebody the ability to make changes to their property bring it back it's not fermented that's the only thing I'm looking when FEMA goes in there looking at the whole scenario I don't know if anybody's done a cabinet job or a kitchen remodel you're looking at anywhere from probably 12 to $60,000 just for that well if your house is only $200,000 and you're doing a kitchen and a bathroom you've exceeded your 50% that's because FEMA is going in there and taking your cabinets you're flooring and everything else I'm not looking at that am I looking to go in there and beat everybody to death no but I know what things cost and building code gives me the ability to either use ICC which is the International Code Council that has a an algorithm that will figure the square footage and what works being done in there and it'll spit out what it's supposed to be or I have another me it's called RS mean it's a book that the department bought me that I can go through there and basically tell you everything that's being done and that's what it is I cannot by law ask for a signed contract from a contractor I can't do that so my biggest problem that I have with owner Builder now is they don't want to do the labor part about it they say well I got this fence for 75 bucks good for you but the price of your permit is based on the total job cost this material this amount of Labor this is what it is on the enforcement side of it I I have that in place now if I go out and I see that you're not doing anything that that is permitted work you're getting a code violation and you're going to go Court you're going to pay you're going to pay a triple fee on your permit that's the enforcement side on that doesn't here though you're not nothing in here get you more access than you have no no no no no no it doesn't all we're doing is right now is we're changing the cumulative from being a year stretching it out five years we're changing it from 50% 40% that's basically saying that you can spend $40,000 on your1 ,000 house over this 5year period instead of doing 40,000 year after year after year after year so couple question on those those couple data points so let's talk about the the 50 to 40% first I see there CRS rating points that are involved in that let's say we go 50 to 49 50 to 48 is that the further you go down more points you get or is if you're just below if you get a certain block of points below FEMA any point below FEMA you get a x amount of points so it doesn't matter how if we go to 10 you don't get any more points for that there's there's you have a certain amount of points for this line item so and it's based on whoever that auditor is and it'll fall within their I don't know how the whole algorithm gets done based on it but if we drop just based on what you have right now we have the potential of 490 points just on these items right now which right now we are only 211 points from dropping one class from a seven to a six that will give our residents an additional 5% discount we're 711 points from dropping two so we're at 490 potential just by making these ordinance changes now plus when you guys giving us the okay to get on with 4Runner that's going to add more points to that add on top of that 490 as well as we're in the process of having all of our maps and stuff put through GIS there's additional points on that so we have a potential of our next cycle to drop two classes again and I get all that but my very specific question is if we go 50 to 49 or 50 to 40 there is zero difference in the benefit from a point perspective from a point perspective you're correct corre so the only the only difference from going for 49 to 40 is the inability for a person to it's lowering their threshold to be able to do things correct um so which adds to that point of citizens are angry right and you know so do we really want to reduce it for no tangible Point benefit below 49 I mean I 100% agree 200% agree we go better 49 whatever it is but where do we draw that line because the the closer we get to zero the less somebody has an ability to do that and well like you was saying earlier was when you go we start we had talked about this and we had said you know what what is the differences between 40 to 48 40 to 45 and what are the differences what we what could potentially happen is they start to circumvent and they start to say okay like what we're seeing now at the 50% we're starting to see people do things under that 50% that we know is exceeds that 50% but they've got their contractors that write up these reports that say and that's what so if you make the margin so close they're going to still try to do that if you widen it a little bit even if you drop it to 45 versus 40 it gives us a little bit more of a leadway and it kind of restricts direct them from being able to do that well it's all relative to the amount of damage that correct happens right everything going to be right and and remember this is only going to affect the people below base flood and the new construction right and and another thing I want to bring up too this is also that that percentage is cumul it's not a onetime event right it's cumulative over well well that's what we're looking at doing because right now we're at 50% one year so if you have a $200,000 house you can do a $100,000 worth of improvements every year cor give you an idea of some of the surrounding areas I'm going to mess this up ferdinanda beach is it is right now in their ordinance is a two- foot free board and 30% every year madira Beach is a 4 foot a free board and they're 50% through 10 years so it's cumulative over 10 years and they have a special occasion in there if you've had two flood events you can't go past the two flood events if you had two flood events in that time Newport Richie our neighbor is 50% in five years so they're cumulate they took away the one year and went to five years simal County 50% over five years Pasco County is still at 49% with one year but like we were talking with them the majority of Pasco Count's not in a flood zone the municipalities that fall within Pasco County are so well I say the coastal areas and stuff so Pasco really doesn't really affect them by changing that because most of the municipalities have their own ordinances so it doesn't affect them I included them because we like to throw Pasco and Newport together but a lot of the counties are a lot more stringent than we are and and I agree it doesn't have to be 40% it could be 45 it could be 48 it could be I wouldn't go the 49 like what Veronica was kind of talking about you're 1% you know you're talking 10 grand you know so let's take that away move it back 45 but put the cumulative in there what's what's the FEMA timeline is that a year that's their on on on the the cumulativeness of it I don't think it says so whether we go one five there's no CRS right I just based on the 50% right on theirs I didn't see a cumulative on there is it 50% for one rating and Below 50 is another is that's a step if you get better basically you get a block of points the further you go down the better you're score right so that's that's contrary to what I asked I'm sorry so if we go to 49 or we go to 40 it's the same it's the same I thought you meant on the CRS thing I'm sorry I'm sorry yeah as far as I know and that's why I revert to Veronica she's more on the CRS s it's under my my understanding she can prove me wrong is it's based on the way that they break the points down when they do the our fiveyear cycle visits on our audits it could be more it could be the same I don't have that answer that's why I you say it doesn't matter it stays the same uh I I don't have a a clear answer to that I don't want to answer to that I would want to know that before we make any decision on how what that number is if we because in my mind if we aren't getting any tangible benefit from it we're really penalizing people that are trying to repair their homes within that percentage so there's a really good document from Columbia Law School from the national resources defense Council and it talks about breaking the cycle of flood rebuild repeat because that's the point of this the point isn't to penalize citizens it's to potentially save their lives like if they're just if it's flooding and they're rebuilding and then it floods and they rebuild and it floods and they rebuild and they continue that process what if one time it floods and they die what how is that well what if they climb up top of the city hall jump and kill themselves I mean well that's you're G's here here's my point here you got to be careful that you don't force an elderly person that lives in these homes if they get to the point where they reach this threshold they can't fix their home and they're out right so but the point is to make sure that potential lives are saved right we don't want what if for what if what happened to Fort Meers happens here that could be way worse for us that that that could result in a loss of lives that that you and I can't even think about and you can't say like oh well if somebody jumps off which is outrageous um this is about prevention of those kinds of thing which is also what by the way suicide prevention is right well you put people in the street too that's a bad thing too what I'm saying is is don't in reality we all live here in this FL I live on Green Street in a in a house that could be flooded and if I don't evacuate that I could lose my life I mean that's it's a choice that I make by living here right so I don't need the government to tell me I can't live here you follow me so all I'm saying is I'm all about making these guidelines stringent so that we don't get into that cycle but if the only benefit that the city gains is getting somebody out of their home faster well no the benefit is saving our citizens lives I I I don't think the goal is to get better the house I I I I don't think I I know that's not the goal no that's not the goal so it's like this is The Balancing Act I was talking about right so it's it's there's a balance between wanting to serve the citizens and not having them have undue Strife when they have't already had an event right okay you guys just got flooded you just lost everything and how aggressively we want to never have them have that event again right over over over a period of time right so this all ultimately stems back to you can thank Louisiana for the 50% right that that is a community that just kept getting flooded and they keep rebuilding and they keep getting flooded and they keep rebuilding and it if we don't do anything now it's not just going to be a scenario where prior to this set of storms it was just going to be a scenario of people are going to keep getting wet houses are going to keep getting done and they're little floods so we're not losing lives we hav a had of Fort Meers right this this was a near Miss I mean it was still 100 miles offshore and we got wet what you're dealing with though is that you're creating consistent property loss over time which costs everything more money over a tremendous amount of time and you're just delaying the inevitable of these houses being demolished and turned into something new over you're stretching it out over a tremendous amount of time by allowing them to do that so I agree that we don't want to go crazy um I think there's probably a balance in there because 40% and 5 years the next flood of we're not putting any houses back together like they're all vacant you know but to your to both of your point right no we don't want to kick someone who's in fixed income who's lived here for a really long time out but we also in the interest of CI the citizens we don't let someone who doesn't want to climb stairs build a brand new home that doesn't have any because we have ordinances the Florida building code exists for Life Safety purposes right the idea is to build something that's safe for people to live in so there's a really delicate balance between how aggressively we want to elevate every home in the town and how do we serve our citizens by not forcing them out of their homes but like we just saw in Fort Meers like you hear the adage all the time there's a cost that comes with living on the water right that right now we pay that cost with taxes you know we pay a much higher property tax for the benefit of living on the pretty water insurance is high because we live on really pretty water but that's where the change is right now because of the environment we're in they are if we allow them to rebuild we're going to let them throw 200,000 just short of the 50% rule because the contractor now he can't ask the contractor for a signed contract but every municipality down south right now is requiring an affidavit signed by the general contractor that says that all of the work is on this cost sheet is what they're is they're getting getting paid this much money to do all of that work and you have to put 100% of everything on that sheet and the homeowner has to sign it in front of a notary that every dime that's this is all of the money it will take to get the house back to that and if they violate that they're violating a not a signed legal document right and that little bit of causes the contractors to be like I'm not touching that like I'm not going to jail because you don't want to cover the 50% rule give so to there's probably a balance in here maybe it's 45% and two years whatever is a balance between better CRS ratings and slightly more aggressive codes to so that we don't keep putting because the reality is is that when a lot of these people get wet out here they're not staying an Investor's buying these houses up off these people because they're tired of getting wet they're not going to live in it again so a tremendous number of the houses that got wet got sold very rapidly to people that were investors that are just going to turn around and if we don't have teeth in there to give him the ability to stop them they're just going to roll in and bandaid it back up and sell it again so it's it's a balance between serving the citizens but not allowing them to keep putting themselves I mean that's what why we have government right is so that people don't keep getting themselves in the same exact spot right we've got to crosswalk because everybody should be smart enough to walk across the street where it makes sense but we still have laws there because they don't they run across the street and play Frogger so we have to play this game of how much how aggressively can we adjust the city so that we don't ever deal with it again versus how much if we could talk a little bit more about the the uh those numbers you mentioned about just doing fixing a new kitchen right and and let's take a what's our Medan home price 25300 400 Medi Med I went to my investigator she'll look up but remember you're not talking about total price so she's probably not going to get structure value structure assessed structural value minus the land minus the land so say you got a 275,000 three easy math right $400,000 piece of property and 200 of that's the land right the tax assessor got 200 on the building % you get 50% of the building 00,000 worth of work you can do right now there are things that he doesn't have to include in that under normal circumstances like he said under normal building circumstances where you're repairing a home not after an event it's just him putting you know it's like okay that roof is permittable but there's even Realms in that it's repair or it's maintenance I don't have to include that in that rating in that cumulative rating over time time he has the leeway to do that already when we have a storm event it becomes a completely different thing because now it's a FEMA rating thing and it's called substantial damage if the building takes more than 50% of the structural value to put it back to pre-storm condition everything included then at that point is deemed substantially damaged and has to be brought up because it's below flood zone in a special flood Hazard it falls under FEMA purview of now it falls it's out of building code's hands it's under the FEMA code of it the entire structure has to be brought up to code and the biggest element of bringing the entire structure up to code is getting it to flood compliant height how does that play into like pools that stuff doesn't matter it's not the it's the living for living space all that other stuff doesn't count so and flood insurance doesn't cover any of that stuff anyway right right but if the value of that goes into that equation I'll say ca accessory structures doesn't does that's what I'm saying so just so so structure for to understand the process so let's say there we have a $300,000 home okay that's that's the living structure not the lot or anything so $300,000 currently once they get above $150,000 they can't fix right um so to if I come in and this is just during a storm event right so if I just replaced my kitchen and let's say it cost me $100,000 I just I really went crazy in my kitchen I'm still zero so that that's included okay so so basically I've already used up $100,000 in my kitchen if I get storm event I'm at 50,000 and I'm done and in these communities that are 30% over 5 years or the one that's 50% over 10 years if you do a roof and an AC unit and a kitchen remodel or anything over the course of 10 years you could get an afternoon rainstorm and take enough damage that you're not getting a permit you cannot live in it again but the reason for the teeth of that the reason FEMA has that code put in place is because sorry the reason they have those codes in place is very specifically because they don't want people to continue living below the base flood they don't want to continue Fe keep in mind these are houses new construction and houses that areow blood elevation the goal is to get them right get once they're above then you spend as much money you can spend as much money as you want somewhere in the conversation so far I'll just stay if they if FEMA pays somebody out two times or a specific number of times three times then at that point FEMA will say if it gets flooded a fourth time that's it we're done so up until now there's been no limit so up until now FEMA would just keep paying and paying and paying every year Congress had to pass a rule last year last term that capped nfip the national flood insurance program's flood policies at $112,000 a year $1,000 a month on top of your mortgage for your flood insurance because the premiums were going above that they were 23 $24,000 on houses that were really expensive and in mega high risk zones they they the Fe 2.0 R and and by the way those numbers he's got that from 2022 are pre the FEMA the FEMA 2.0 rating system okay my house is so is very flood compliant I have 17 1 12 ft to get to my first living floor above mean high tide we're not likely to get wet on our living floor FEMA 2.0 rating system wanted $7,500 a year for my flood insurance now I told him he was crazy and then he had needed to re reassess things because that system's super broken the FEMA 2.0 rating system but those numbers aren't even actively reflecting where we are now because they what they snuck in when they snuck in a $12,000 cap on the nfv premiums was they snuck in a caveat in there that said that if because we can no longer charge you for whatever the risk might be we also don't have to take you so if your risk is so high that $122,000 does not cover the premium and we've paid out enough to reach 50% of the value of your structure we will not renew your policy period you're not getting renewed so how does that work when um you have to have FL Insurance because private insurance is now so the nfip was built originally because when Congress passed the rule that said FDIC back mortgages had to have flood insurance there was no private flood insurance available in most of the coastal communities there nobody was willing to write a policy because all these houses are ground level and they're highrisk so the NF P was built at that point because we need we wrote a law that said you had to have it and then we had to make a way for you to have it the government never wanted to be an insurance that's why five years ago the nfip was on the on the chopping block to not get funded they were going to do away with the nfip program because after the biger waters Act was passed 10 years ago the biger waters act changed the way the rules were and all the subsidies started going away and all the insurance rates started going through the roof when all of that was done all of a sudden it was attracted enough because the NFI the lowest guy in the industry sets the price for the industry so when the nfip started jacking their rates up to get closer to actuary Lloyds of London and all these private insurers were like well well yeah we'll take that sure we'll take $10,000 premiums from everybody in that neighborhood how often are they really going to get wet and then everybody got into flood again and the nfip Congress went well why it's a$1 199 billion loss every year the national flood insurance program because FEMA pays Disaster Recovery funds out of the same bucket that they pay pre the premium bucket that they pay for recovery for people who are insured it's a loss so they the Congress wants the nfip to go away because it's it's a loss every year it's a mega loss every year right now because of the way this environment is working because flood private flood insurance doesn't have a $122,000 cap on it the nfip can tell you no because there is someone who will write you it may be 30,000 a year and now you're seeing mortgage companies and I knew it was going to happen after Ian you're seeing mortgage companies that have just figured out that they're writing $750 or million dollar mortgages on houses that only have $250,000 worth of flood coverage homeowners doesn't touch it if it just gets wet so you get a $250,000 check you need to do $700,000 worth of repairs on the house and he won't let you and now you're sitting in a house that's been flooded to the roof line all your stuff is gone your mortgage holder has your $250,000 flood insurance check and they're telling you as soon as you can find a contractor who will put the house back together we'll we'll pay him I got a ton of clients that are stuck in that spot right now so now the mortgage companies are going no now you have to have flood insurance and you have to have additional flood you have to buy an additional flood policy to cover the cost of the mortgage and places like Lloyds of London and State Farm and all state are going sure it's $45,000 a year because your house is below the base flood you're high risk so this is it's not just just a question now of do we want to continue perpetuating the cycle if we don't start getting these people forcing these people to build up and get out of this every opportunity we get to do it they're going to hit a spot where they can't ensure the house no matter what we won't be the one that tells them they can't be in the house they're simply not going to be able to buy them their mortgage holders going to tell them to get out well after so many claims what was what's the claim amount right now the claim amount is 50% of the structural value of the of the building so when they go through to reassess you if you're below base flood and you have and you take an event when they go to renew you if your if the $112,000 cap doesn't meet the risk the actuary risk of what you should be at then they're going to look at how many claims you've had and if you're in a repetitive loss area and you're high risk and they can't get an adequate premium out of you they will not renew you and so in that case they're out you're either getting private insurance well if you have a mortgage for one and they take away your flood insurance they call the note call the note right or you well then or they'll go get you flood insurance so that's what the mortgage companies are doing it's like oh no we'll go get your flood insurance Lloyds of London said $24,000 a year of course they you can't pay that then who can pay that mortgage right so they're gonna get out it this this is awful right they're going to be leaving these houses anyway right one way or another because the environment the real environment is changing and the insurance climate the insurance environment is changing very rapidly so we have to play a balance game between how aggressively do we let the want to stop them from continuing to rebuild in a flood zone with the compassion of not trying to kick people out into the street but also getting this wrapped up as rapidly as we can so that we don't keep dealing with it and people don't just keep dealing with it yeah so I don't want to see anybody kicked out of their house and I don't want to see people not be able to rebuild their house why I got into this industry in the first place because it was the cheapest way to keep people keep their houses but all of this but there's Grand programs that you very El that literally gave me chills when you said that we could be the Showcase yeah I really like that I I really did get physical chills I was like that would be really cool but so there are options for these people that you you know might get kicked out but there are options to get them even prior to an event correct grants these grants are granted even so there are options for these people there's both kinds of obviously we're doing this team over here plus you know the rest of the team that's with them is doing a real great job in in educating our citizens for this program so I commend you guys and whoever you know the rest of you guys for doing that when we reach fdm for guidance on this they jumped right on it yeah because kind of piggyback what Mike was saying they're interested yeah and just to give you a little Insight this is the death stop manual for substantial Improvement and it says right here the purpose of the substantial Improvement substantial damage requirements is to protect the property owner's investment and safety and over time to reduce the total number of buildings that are exposed to flood damage thus reducing the burden on taxpayers through the payment of Disaster Assistance that's why they're making things as stringent as they are and by us putting this in there we as a city and myself as a building official and Veronica is my plug plane we're not going and saying we want you out of your house right like Mr fr said the insurance companies are going to tell you that the mortgage companies are going to tell you that but we're trying to put things in place so this don't happen right so some of these folks can and and it's Not Gon to hit everybody some people are just not going to be able to do it you know eventually you're yourself we can guide them to to the grants to the different programs that are out there for funding purposes there there are other aves okay so the nrdc they released a report that it actually talks about how the threshold actually does give credit um they said few communities utilize uh communities FEMA data has identified 25 communities receiving credit for less than a 50% threshold and 32 communities receiving credit for a regulatory threshold that is no more than 25% um so that I think that definitely does play into the 40% so I mean if the nrdc is putting out this data I mean it's an official government organization they get credit for what was the other thing of 25 20 32 communities FEA identified 32 communities receiving credit for a regulatory threshold that is no more 25% so it might be a 20 maybe in once you get to 25 or it maybe we that's something that they'll just need to see where that slide is we need be very specific on what what a benefit we get for that because while while as things move forward Insurance makes it difficult all what I don't want to be the first in line to push people out either if there's no benefit for it's not pushing people out it's it's making sure that their homes are are are safe I can't believe that that giving him we're giving him guidance right that's what this ordinance does this ordinance gives him guidance he has a he's got this is why we don't have robots do it all right I mean he's still The Compassion behind the statement so we set the statement at 40% and he goes in and he looks at everything and he he has the ability to look to go in and go you know all right this is really really close you know this is close you know this is we're not we can exclude this we can exclude this right he has that ability to do that again he can exclude what he can ex well there's things within the code that he can exclude that are things that are cosmetic like he said FEMA when FEMA writes that number so like Lee County adopted the FEMA version of it which is like want an assessment of the knickknacks that you're planning on buying that were in here pre- storm that were damaged they're all going they throw everything in they throw everything in he can simply go in and go paint I don't care about the paint on a normal on normal remodel Improvement or something like that but if in a in a matter of an advent no all bets are off all that because that all has to be traed through F Goa yeah so but he has the ability he it's on him to especially for people who want are pulling a homeowner's permit to try and put it back together themselves they're going in there and they're going I can do it for eight bucks and he's going guideline says that it's going to cost you $80,000 and he can find there's a middle in there right he gets some leeway on okay we're putting it back to pre-storm damage well brand new cabinets have a higher value than pre-storm cabinets had so there's an assessment for okay well you're yeah you have to pay that to put these new cabinets in but there's some deterioration you know he can play that game to keep compassion in the in the city in the in things that go in but it also gives him the ability that when an investor comes in here and goes I can do it for eight bucks he can go no you're not yeah I get it no you can buy it you can LIF you know but you're going to lift it you're going to put all new windows in it you're going to make it's going to be a compliant home when we're done you know because like like he was reading the goal here is not just we don't want to kick people out we don't want to create ordinances that can't that prevent people from living here we also have a requirement to make sure that again government's here to make sure people don't make bad decisions sometimes here to help huh said I'm here to help there's a lot of people that just went in and dropped a 100 Grand into putting their house back together that may wash away next year y right I've got there people all over the place that are dropping one of the things that people can do and this is something that they'll still have the ability to do your ta everybody's taxable value thank God everybody's taxable value because the property appraiser is a little light usually your taxable value is not what your house is worth right right it's usually a lot lower you have the right that comes in to go get a private appraiser to give you a private appraisal of what that house is actually work pre- storm what that house was worth pre- storm yeah so that's interesting concept there too how does that play into because honestly anybody who's Homestead their house is grows exponentially pretty much right such waterfront property and all that but it's very very protective think 3% Max a year so obviously whatever values out there is very suppressed it could be extremely suppressed correct so you have the ability to go in and go no no my house is worth this is happening in Fort Meers all you can get a private appraisal that says no the house is worth $1.7 million it's a double-edged sort if you hand the property appraise or a document that says your house is worth $1.7 million he'll give you a permit to put the house back together guess what next year's tax bill is going to look like yeah and they adjust that so that falls outside to save your home so if you wrong he will absolutely push that bar up where it belongs right so there's a d there's a c there's a double edge and we do that now we've had several residents who have come in who have exceeded or was really close to the being right over the threshold and we've offered them that and they have come by yeah and they met the threshold having the private appraisals done we've had several those happen so everybody wants to work with trying to keep these people where they are and give them the ability to do this and but that's one of those things where you go you shouldn't you should lift it and they go no no I'm putting my house back together and like okay but you're going to have to it's going to hurt because it's going to cost you 300 Grand to put your house back together and you're going to have to prove that you can and that's kind of our way of going look we tried to lead you away from the fire and you just wanted to jump into it anyway this community's already got a bunch of people out there that just put a lot of money into these to a lot of ground floor homes and the reality is it's a dice roll you know I tell clients all the time I'm like hurricane SE season is very simple it's you pull a pin on a grenade June 1st and you set it in a glass and you put it on the front porch and you hope it never goes off and then in November you put the pen back in it and you put it back in the box it's coming right it our job as city council also to prepare what is right and the government and all of the organizations that do all of the research to make sure that we keep the citizens safe which is one of our top priorities it is financially even sometimes right don't put $300,000 in this it's going to get wet next year no no I'm going to put it back together I hear a lot I tried to rebuild my house I tried to elevate it twice and I had twice 1994 qualified decided to not give me the funds to do it then and then in 2019 I went through a whole bunch of expense having architect draw plans I came in and talked to Dallas what required to build the house the code went back to FEA show this is what we're going to do I got a letter from them where I was approved for at least a minimum $150,000 towards a new structure right so I went to demo my house and get a permit and then they told me that they gave the money to somebody up by the expressway so it is the grant program is house still sits there so I've been trying right for several years to do that and uh well and I have people in the grant program we got four this year two of them were people that I wrote in the 2021 cycle which is what this is these are 2021 that are coming in this year and two of them were people that I wrote in 2018 and 2019 and they kept getting rolled because they they will Pasco County will qualify 35 40 people and then they'll rank them as the highest risk and then they wait to see what fdm gives them for a budget every year that's why I'm saying that we do have the possibility to try to get on the radar more for them to th fdm cuz FEMA gets a big list and they go through everything for FMA and for hmgp and they and Congress goes we're going to throw $61 billion at flood mitigation this year and then it gets divied up to the states that all asked for money and then the state department fdem decides where it's going to go fdem is not going to like Hillsboro County is huge they have way more Waterfront than we than Pasco County will ever have and way more money Davis Island all those places down there they went into hmgp this after the storm hit when they opened it which is hasard mitigation grant program that's what happens after a storm they applied for hmgp money they got $700,000 to fix their traffic lights they didn't even open the program to their citizens at all I'm trying to write two FMA grants and Swift Current grants over there for them right now and Hillsboro County simply doesn't want to be involved their citizens have no choice Miami Dade does not have a flood coordinator that will write a grant program Palm Beach County does not have one these are multi-billion dollar counties when it comes to their water front we have the ability to set the bar I got a question for you have a family here in for qualifi 2500t house fdm qualifies it to have their house have you lift it and uh they have say a 98 12 pitch roof M tall roof 10 foot ceilings and you go to elevated it to the current fous standards the house qualifies but with the new standards the roof two heights over the maximum structure elevation so that's when we get in with the p& Z so if it's say it's a two it would have to be a two-story structure to exceed the maximum Building height it would already have to be a two-story structure because we can get 35 ft right now and that's to mean High our code is to mean roof line so you got a monster roof it's still here so we draw from Eve to Peak we draw a midline in our building code that's how our building code reads so it's from base flood elevation to mean roof mean roof middle you get 35 ft you can get a lot of house in there CU remember your base flood is somewhere in the middle the garage how high the property is I guess right but if the property is really high then I'd only need to go up 3T you got 10t ceilings that's not going to be two house unless you got six foot living area well but remember that that height that you have to elevate to is above the mean high tide line it's above navd so if you have a 9t or 10ft elevation on the building or on the property and I only have to go to 12 I only need 3T to the first living floor so if they want to elevate their house to 9 ft so they can have a parking garage on it you said the maximum Height's too high you can only have five feet on your so right now I'm writing that I've been helping write that code in Treasure Island they're rewriting their code to say that they can violate the maximum Building height because they're raising grade theirs is above grade but like I mean my house is my house is three stories high and it's 10 it's 10t ceilings in the garage and 12T per floor I have two living floors above that and a roof deck and I don't exceed the mean height the mean height requirement and I'm in an elevation 11 on Miller's byou so I needed to go 6 and 1/2 ft above the grade I was at 5 feet I need at the at the time when we built it so but I went to 10 because I wanted 10 foot ceilings in the garage so I have 10ft ceilings twoot box dresses 12T ceilings twoot box trusses 12ft ceilings and we and my mean right at the line feet at 35 feet above base flood you don't you don't measure it from the grade you don't measure from grade you measure from base flood measure from that base flood 5T and I my base flood and the freeboard put me I I was already starting my zero was starting eight feet up so I'm sorry so can I get back to this so what are you asking for you're asking for direction for what to do this is very this is very important and very a lot of great information but we've got another large topic to um look at here soor no you're fine I you you have I I have learned a lot and I appreciate everything that you have said so I truly do yeah thanks for coming weal of information for sure yes what we be requesting is Council direct the City attorney to put into the proper format to amend the city codes does it need to be a motion or does it Direction well I think the two- foot freeboard is a kind of no-brainer right I don't know that's my opinion on that very quickly same thing again if a block is eight right a foot is what FEMA has we really can't go a foot above that we're going to go a foot we're be well it's and a half be a foot and a half so we're really above that is there any point difference if we and they also but you're already right I mean that's the constr piece of it that I exp so it's buil into the but remember that you may be starting at five or 5.3 feet or 6.2 like there's no there's a the ground is variable right by in you know in anything so yeah I wouldn't worry about I wouldn't worry about the increments on that because a lot of times you're building to block Heights right so so it's it's it's one foot or two foot which we choose to do above the mean flood L above the base flood yeah so I mean you could be here below or you could be here correct so it's just the two foot above the base we're adding a foot we already we already have already so I so so we so do we agree on two foot for the free board yes no maybe yes and then what the next thing we're looking we're looking at the which the substantial damage we're at 50% right now so what's everybody's idea yeah so I want to clarify something for you all because I sense that you you felt I was being irrational or whatever so I'm all about safety right it's strictly questions because whatever we set that threshold there will come a time when it forces that person to make a decision that they may not be able to make that's going to happen already well I get that and the reality is is that none of us are safe now so if that was the if that was the total goal we don't need to set at 40 we just set at zero if you have an event raise it follow me so what you know there's a balance as he you stated is it 40 is it 45 is it 30 is it 20 I don't know what that is but the closer it gets to zero the less ability give to a homeowner to fix their property so what's your suggestion well so obviously if there's a if there's a a bigger CRS benefit the lower we go that trans well unless we get to 25 I don't know if it if it's based on no it says here that FEA data identifies 25 communities receiving credit for less than a 50% threshold right less than 50% is that 49 48 40 is it it doesn't say that that that's if you are below 50 you get credit I right totally get that but how far below 50 do you get any more credit if you don't all we're doing is bringing that threshold lower so that this person can't put money in their current home without raising and that's prais on a a property appraisal not actual if they decide to do that right so there's a lot of things in play there they can monkey with that but I get that again it does make it more difficult for homeowners to be able to do it the less it is right but the whole point of this is for a safer home to be raised so but and I looked through FEMA's website and I also look through the the um the desktop there um the the book on substantial Improvement it doesn't it it doesn't give you a timing or does it say these are the points that you'll G you'll gain points CRS points if you're below if you're more stringent than what FEMA says that's all it says it doesn't direct you as to what percentage like I said one of uh our co-workers uh are we reached out to fadina f Anda Beach and they're at 30% why because they're more Coastal so they're making it more stringent to keep that from happening so that's really up to you there's nothing I can do a little bit more research and find out and talk and and see I already sent a couple emails um to fdem as well to see if they can guide me on that but I haven't seen anything so I would be more inclin to to to not go as low as 40 45 I think be a good compromise I say that's I was asking what was your what was your suggestion I mean 45 45 would probably be better than 40 obviously and then you know every year are you still gonna keep it to the year year two year again is there if there's no if there's no benefit from a CRS perspective I would I would keep it the same how does fale look at it does does he obviously 10 don't just look at it from a CRS credit stand Point what we were talking about as well don't just look at CRS points yes that's one caveat okay but you also have to look at if we keep it at one year you're doing 45% this year 45% this year 45% this year 45% if FEMA is paying out all these years you're eventually GNA be pushed out by FEMA or by your insurance company because they're not going to do it any but it's not your government pushing you out well govern but but but even though you put it at the 45 what we're doing now is you can also go in and get another appraisal the cost of your property is going to increase and it's going to be more than what's on the property appraisers now to kind of come off of this a little bit in the current building code in existing codes we we live in a in a high windborne debris area it is in your code that you have to have either storm shutters you have to have impact rated glass under existing codes Under the existing building code if you want to go into you know Miss Linda if you want to go and change the windows out in your house and they are not impact rated right now you can change 25% of your windows say you have 12 you can change three of your windows this year to regular single pan glass don't have to do anything next year you can do the same thing within four years you're going to have all your windows replaced in your house and not one of them is impact rated so the first storm you get that's going to Chuck somebody's fence board through it is going to blow a hole in your house those winds are going to come in and lift your roof right off the house same kind of different scenario here if we keep allowing folks to keep sinking thousands and thousands and thousands of their money into this house they're eventually going to run out they're not going to have that ability to do it anymore and I want to reiterate because is on record I'm not about throwing anybody out of their house nobody is I want everybody to be safe I want everybody to regain their investment on their property and not have to walk away from it correct we have a couple of those in the city now that are in this particular right situation and I feel bad for them but it it's out of my hands I can't do anything were they aware of it when they did it uh were they told they aware when they pulled the permit because they had to get a permit to do whatever they no they they have enough damage on their property now that it exceeds their levels and they don't have the money to go in and redo it insurance companies are dropping them mortgage company is going to pull a note on one of them yeah this is a double-edged sword and that's that's all we're trying to say where do we want to be do we want to be the bad guy in this scenario or do we want to try to ease up on on this safety Point definitely drop it below 50 but do we want to go as far as 40 or hold 4 should be a year because you or maybe people need to make that decision themselves I think you're on the right path you know 45 splits it 50 we're at 40 it easier to measure that and you don't have to go five years go three years right I was going to say two or three years yeah what did you you gave a couple examples of the time frame and Newport Richie was one of them I think five years there five or two yeah Pasco go and read those again uh 49 Fern Beach is 30% every year w madira beach is 50% through 10 years unless you have two flood events and then you're done is 50% in five years 7 seminal county is 50% in five years Pasco County is 49 in one but like I said most of the flood issues is individual right cities so it really doesn't matter to Fasco that much because the cities are going to be eating that New Port Richie and Port Richie is the bulk of the floods and see and that's they're at 49% in five years yeah and we're probably realistically more vulnerable than they are and I just want to confirm with you that that does not consider repetitive cumulative repair work or cumulative damage over time right it does that no the percentage it says the there are two critical shortcomings of the current FEMA SI SD definition and one of those is that the regulatory definitions of substantial Improvement and substantial damage do not consider repetitive cumulative repair work or cumulative damage over time and that's from the nrdc which again is a so explain what exactly we're that's saying damage damage we're talking about time frame right so in in this case the 40 this use our current 50% one year if if it's 50% this year the clock resets next year if it's 50 if it's 50% now we get in it and we have another event within the year then you're over so what what is that saying about the cumulative not explain that there's two different pieces substantial Improvement and substantial damage are different things so substantial Improvement is I want to build an addition there's been no event right I want to build an I want to build an add addition typically most municipalities read that as we're going to be cumulative on substantial Improvement so over the course substantial substantial Improvement within building code because Florida building code has its own thresholds not ignoring the flood Hazard substantial Improvement is a place where he can go well you've done you've done a lot of stuff over the last five years no you know you now you've now you've made this a one million dollar house in a flood zone so is that in in the event thing what really matters that's substantial damage substantial damage so does is that up to the city's discretion whether we include substantial improvements in that no no Fe FEMA is GNA take whatever it is based on that on the event event yeah so but they're still going to track repetitive loss right they're still going to track the repetitive loss different pieces that's different though yeah they're different pieces repetitive loss is going to go for insurance I do a re remodel right not event a remodel and let's say I reached my 50% yep and then there's event two things can 50% or the event so though you already use your 50% you're done no so FEMA is not going to look at the remodel for the substantial damage cuz what they're looking at is at the day before the event what was the value of the structure and what's it going to co get cost to get it back to that thing but what you're saying is you look at it from the fact of is you won't issue anything so once I get to that remind I'm at that 50% and I want to I want to add something that takes me above that you say no you can't do anything else you got to raise your home well and the substantial Improvement side has a you typically the way they run it runs is because a lot of people we go that's fine I'll just do phase one and phase two no you have to complete a project and then you have 12 12 calendar it's from that day of completion of the permit you have 12 months before you can pull the next right next permit to do another whatever and you get out of that depending on where that is but so there are two different things there substantial damage is just looking at the that event no cumulative now it's read different by every municipality Cape Coral had a fiveyear look back on anything and they had to go into a special session and resend it so they Cape Coral and Lee County both pulled back their fiveyear and said we're not going to look at anything because it was pretty much going to dump everybody in the entire town out of their house so again you're we're not carving these on tablets right you guys in the event of an event like that if we have a catastrophic level 12T storm surge and you guys want to revamp the way he he he enforces things you can right but just understand that if you're if you're getting CRS ratings for the things that you've changed and you roll them back later you're going to have issues with your you know your CRS rating is going to jump way way way back up if you have to roll them back later so I think again it's it's the it's the scales in reality is say you do a remodel or whatever and and eventually you raise that that becomes your right in the ideal you get up before ideally you put it up before do that because you could be Investing For not well and so a lot of times that's a solution right in some places before there's a storm you have I have clients that call me all the time that are like I really want to put an addition on the house and they won't let me because it would exceed the 50% rule for in the flood Hazard Zone but I can lift their existing home and then build new footprint on the back of it in new structure and then we can go through and build all the addition that they want on top of that afterwards because the building official is like I'm not I don't care what you're doing you're out of the flood zone sounds great right and so that's a big deal that's the other part of lifting things and why you try to make codes better is because lifting things you don't have to go through and change all the windows and do all that stuff people that pop the top off and build a new structure on top of it they have to put all new everything in right so we want to make we want to make it as easy as possible for people to elevate and get out of the flood zone but we also want to put enough teeth in the code to make them have to so they don't just keep doing it and again the bigger problem is not it it's typically not the little lady who's on a fixed income that guy happened to get wet he's not going to go in there and try and throw that lady out he's going to find every rule he possibly can to let her be able to stay in her home but we want the teeth in the code to be able to allow him to tell the investor that just came in and bought six flooded homes you're not putting them back together right you're putting them in the year so I mean I'm okay with the one year I guess I'm okay with two years as well I don't know if I want to grow that out because again it becomes especially since it's we're already below 50 the longer time frame you stretch it out the less you're able to do 5% of people that make an improvement at 45% you're going to put in addition close a fortune make a bedroom out you're going to spend $150,000 house you're going to spend $65,000 in close that bedroom are you going to do it again next year not likely you might never do it again but probably be five years before you make any kind of improvement like that again if you even do it so the time frame is not that big of an issue I don't think as far as improvements the 45% is depending on the shape and what you want to do 45% is a bigger issue by doing all of this we're we're keeping our residents safe as well as ourselves and we're also decreasing the amount of money that all of the residents will pay for their home insurance home owners and flood insurance right by doing that so but by by but we have but we have programs in place with the grant program obviously are using them very well um we have advocates for that program I I think the two foot free board we've agreed on that I think going three years we can change it if if we get to a ma major event as he just said we can change it and as a council and and say no um but using the example that Mike gave I could go and change Windows a couple at a time and then I'm still not going to be safe so what's the whole point I mean the whole point is to keep we as the government as the council our job is to keep them safe not to kick them out of the house but to keep them safe we're not making people do this this is if there's a vent or if they want to do more more things that's our job um we have to look at the 3,000 residents and all of our residents I no long I I also do not want to kick anybody out I'm staying in my house forever um I personally think you know we just saw a presentation from the Port Authority that showed what could happen and to operate and believe that that couldn't happen in my opinion is very shortsighted actually it will happen I would I would vent to say it will happen at some point when could be tomorrow could be 100 years from now but I think that we September and twice in December well like I said the sooner we can get these houses elevated the better if we have an opportunity to do that we need to move as fast as we can moving looking at becoming a model City to do that I think that has a lot of benefits it's realistic let me finish and for me when I saw that presentation and I saw the entire byou completely underwater I'm sorry I think that a two foot thing a 40% I think that this kind of we don't want that to happen and we don't want our citizens to be underwater and we don't want them to potentially die which is way worse than having to fight insurance companies or having to get you all to help them look for Grants that's peas compared to them potentially losing their lives because we might not have prepared for an event that could possibly happen well the best preparation for an event like that is to people to listen to what the officials here are saying get the hell out because there wasn't that kind of evacuation that should have occurred and people should have actually been moving in that direction and did nothing and a lot of people can't you know just because a a thing says oh well everybody has to get out what about people who have no car what about people who are too elderly and can't move I mean wasn't an old man who was rescued After the flood was in so we have been in communication with Pasco County through Emergency Management where they do have buses in place now and the last storm I myself had gotten in one of the trucks and drove around and knocked on people's doors and asked if there was anybody disabled or handicap or on oxygen or they needed because there is Pasco County does have a system in place for that and um this is really good because we would like to get more workshops and more literature more education out there to the public to so that they are aware that it does exist there are things out there that we can let them know about that they may not be aware of but there there is to bring that because there are a lot of citizens that don't drive elderly and there is something in place for that where they will come and pick them up so there are different Avenues there's a lot more happening today than there was five years ago and there's a lot more things in place I'm glad we're having this conversation because when my neighborhood was flooded everybody came out and helped one another and this is a good way to build community relationships with your neighbors so that you do you should know everybody around you and if somebody does have a need to'd be able to somehow address it and communicate that so I don't know what we can do but I I'd like to see some kind of program where we where we all work together to build that kind of relationship he had one of his guys with FEA doing a presentation M was you guys could do a video like that a presentation some of his videos of him actually elevating houses and the results and present the benefits of what we're trying to do to the citizens up mail out so they just click on this link on their TV or the computer and they watch that video and explains to them what we're doing and how they can benefit from this long video this is educational one the bottom line we had time sounds like we're all in agreement that one year maybe we should be more um strict than that five years I think we sounds like it's too much I heard three I heard two so why we where you at on the time frame two three it doesn't matter me because give me one three two I'm at two 45 45 I'm with three 45% oh yeah 45 I think we already agre 45 I didn't agree with that I didn't well I think we had consensus at 45 we we and you can argue this again remember that this is Direction next topic we can get so sound we we we had a consensus on 45 maybe not total agreement um so you said 45 and two or three 45 and three three two two three three three you'll see something in teacher one one of question I'd like that do you know if you go from one to two to three if there's any incremental benefit or not I I I don't know we're going to reach out and we'll try and have that my guess is that there is not a so somewhere yeah but definitely below 45 I mean 40 50 50 get something and it doesn't appear that there is any from one year to whatever and that's what I kind of looked at earlier is right now based on just what I have right there's a potential of 490 points now does it say if I go to 49 we get six points we go to 48 we get seven it doesn't give me that right it doesn't break that down we have to reach out to one of the iso re not going to get break that down for us improvements that often right okay there any other questions on that I think that's good next up is item number three discussion on the storage use of the commercial and Industrial zoning districts I'll pass that to Mr C thanks Mike so uh conversation number three of this um at the last meeting we we talked quite a bit about the definitions I think maybe changing a little bit of the focus tonight away from the definitions and maybe going to the second piece that uh I had brought up as a a secondary question which is do you want to allow outdoor storage in commercial three commercial two or actually commercial three areas that's probably a a better conversation to have because I think again definitions are very malleable and and you know can be changed going forward but really the the policy piece that I think needs to be addressed is that do you want to allow open storage in uh C3 and if I if I may jump in to add to that um remember this is this is kind of a directional this is going to go to pnz um for your code that's what should happen so we kind of need direction so yes the definitions are something that definitely there's some conversation to still have about them should we get there but right now it's just do you want like Mr CER said do you want this where do you want it do you not want it so we can get it to pnz and start working that process so as we had a lot of discussion on this in the last council meeting and I I I felt like that we were mostly in agreement so I just I'll just ask where you at on um outdoor storage in in a commercial three for or against I'm for it if it's done right okay yeah I'm forward as well I'm forward if it's done right with certain stipulations sure right yeah how you [Music] feel in the C3 I I'll uh I just doesn't make us look good on on our main Cor so I kind of have a problem with that okay so I'm not again I'm not I'm not for sure um and so with that sounds like we consist Source C3 a couple on the I don't know if you need any more but on the if it's done right if we could elaborate a little on that would well I I think they you can have outdoor storage um in a commercial area 500 ft from residential area what I'm CAU about the whole for anything is a whole another conversation okay well then I mean yeah it's got to be done right as far as would and the reason time I asked that so if if we're talking about outdoor storage versus a um something else we have see fre uh are you saying that the buffering should be different from an outdoor storage than it would be from just another use like a car well well yeah well need to be car lots need to have some guidelines too I see cars parked all over the place there's there's there's a buffering between you talking about residential and Commercial right right so there's a and maybe again I think we need to look at that separately um because that's I've seen outdoor storages done really nice and it's not expensive it's not a big deal but it's presented as it it follows line with the other structur and businesses on the road in the area just by putting a face up painting windows and bushes and putting bushes in the front it looks like a regular building or a regular business but it's got a sliding gate it opens and you can pull in and out it's it's storage box we can do this I I I knew that the buffers are a big point you made last time we can look at that what buffers we you know look at it and see so when it comes back we'll have those answers it's already addressed in another section or we need to add it to the section so but I think we understand the the concerns you had I will I will bring up one thing that's a little different from that um on the definition of outdoor storage yarden lot it's and this is this is the definition that we had in the industrial Zone correct the the indici sized piece is what was in yes currently in there which is what's up what I'm focus on so provided that such outdoor storage yard should not be located closer than 25t to any public Street or closer than 75 ft to any portion of a lot located within a residential district so I I'm assuming um that that may be somewhat more strict than the buffering I'd like to see what the difference between that is the reason it's called out is is probably because it's more strict I would guess imagine so be nice to see what that is let me just say that buffering is a different concept than what that's that's not talking about buffering I was talking about distance buffering well dist High solid I I understand what you're saying but again buffering has you know planning zoning Works matter and so buffering is not necessarily a distance away buffering is what you put in between uses trees so so that's that's why in in this particular definition it's called out that way because you wouldn't find in a buffering section of the code that uses have to be a certain distance apart what they would say is you would have to have a wall that's six foot tall or you have to have certain types of trees so buffering is is you know not a distance per se usually it's in in you know some of the special uh parts of the code that go along with with zoning that starts talking about what those buffers or what those distances between uh uses need to be so understand what you're saying right but just it means something different we both make sense yes and I want to say too that anytime you have commercial abing residential there's normally some kind of wall solid fencing requirement which I I wonder why that's called out here other than the fact that in they want it if it's in industrial they they want it actually enclosed it doesn't matter about their well I think is it residential yeah I think they're they're trying they're trying to set a you know this is trying to set a a tone of what a resident would be looking at if you were because you know what what I think this is anticipating is you have this side of the street is residential this side of the street is is commercial and so what is that residential you know piece going to be looking at so it's going a little bit more than just again not buffering because you know there is a distance you know behind it well 75 feet is a lot yeah yeah as an example over there by the Apple 6 property that property is only about 150 feet wide so that's half their property is and and so with this keep in mind that right now the only place you have outdoor storage yard lot is in an industrial use so again they're they're trying to make it more strict so you have that Industrial quote quote unquote use further away and protected from a a residential I really think that when we look at this as it relates to a commercial use that we're probably going to have to change what those distances are just because the size of the Lots yeah so so understand that that applying outdoor storage yard and lot to a C3 may have a different definition especially on those those distances and we going to discuss it after zoning gets done with it yeah I I really think that that's that's where you know as staff we should probably balance a lot of these ideas off of them to get you know their take on it to make that recommendation to you and on so that was the one thing we need to to get direction on is C3 having outdoor storage and so the only other part of this is if these definitions are good right I would I would say not necessarily um I think and of course that's the man in charge but um if we if we know the direction is that there is there is a desire in C3 I think it goes to Planning and Zoning with that direction and they begin that process and it obviously comes to you and you can change or agree to what they've done but I think Planning and Zoning is the place that that starts your direction your direction is you want out outdoor storage and C3 let them figure out what to do with that but these definitions you don't need those I think at this point planning zoning does that okay do they but the city manager may want something different so so I think again these are starting points um and and once it gets to pnz they're probably going to change there is my guess or they're going to say they're great um either way um but I think the only the only issue I see is that you know none of these contemplate being in a C3 the the outdoor storage yard lot so we're g to have to look at that a little bit differently than what's currently there well the one had concerns with is the general story establishment it says usually consists of a large en closed structure right so that would be you know if it usually consists that doesn't necessar mean it has to right and I think the current interpretation as it has to right so that was one thing I point out there and another issue I I saw with bulk storage yard it's a storage of large quantities raw materials of bulk Goods again what's large quantity I use the um example of a landscaping place where you go get rock mulch different things you know you might have a certain amount of mulch certain amount of this rocks or amount of this rock you know what's a large quantity that that point would be a landscaping right but again it's I so that wouldn't count as a bul store so when you say bul storeage you're just talking about where the stuff is stored not at a business right so that so the ancillary use of that lot for landscaping would include storage of materials that they use within their the pipe manufacturing company over on Leo kid they got all those pipes stacked up inside their Fen in area that's bulk storage guess was just a large quantity what what maybe a large quantity M might be different from me might be different da so I don't the problem more than a whe would be the problem the problem is that there is no clear definition or clear quantity that you can put in there because then you know if you say more than a yard of of material right and maybe it's fine way it is I'm just pointing that out that it's it's interpretation which we're trying to avoid is definitions um I had both materials highlighted in you have a comment yeah I think that those are are conversations for another time because like they said this has to go to PMZ and then it has to come before us on that one particular issue our code is something that is so much more larger and broader the issues that are with it and personally I think that help with that but um I I think that we should we should send it over to pnz the one piece of it see what they do because they're probably going to change everything anyway um and then move forward of there we got to take little pieces at a time and all I'm saying is is that if we don't if there's a couple things we need to discuss now before we send to them so they have a little Direction get back we're have the same discussion so that's I can point out now or I can point out when it comes back from pnz I'd rather i' rather them be U focused on hey this was highlighted as an issue let's talk about this otherwise they might glance to it and sounds okay and then I got to ask the question again when it comes back to counsel so and that's the only thing I'm saying on bul materials like finish that so outdoor storage yard and lot says bul materials but it also um you have a bulk storage yard which is for the storage of ram Show's old bulk hoods so I don't know if we need to metal those together or make one exclusive just observation anybody have anything on one one other thing I I noticed we have this Zing called waterfront commercial zoning District C2 that predominantly pertains to the WOD however there are C2 outside of the WOD so is that something that we've not defined C2 is a waterfront zoning there's other zoning called C2 that's not in the Waterfront District well the WD is a is a special area right that has C2 and C3 C2 C3 yeah and C2 can you can have C2 outside of that area like a marina right right but what if you have a C2 outside of the Waterfront overlay District then you go by the C2 zoning rues then you go by this rule whatever was in C2 okay yeah even though it says the purpose is to attract and designate those uses for services appropriate directly related to Marine and water oriented activities well if it's across town and it's not on the water is this a conflict I don't know I just think we have C2 in our area that it shouldn't be C2 no yeah maybe that's the case too maybe it shouldn't be C2 C2 is only going to be there then if there's C2 in other areas on like for example on 19 there's three three properties I found that are C2 and there's C3 all around it so maybe those are misclassified I don't know I'm just ouring code or was that based upon what the counties I'm looking at the county records so if the county records aren't what I should be looking at I don't know where do I think there is some issues yeah yeah yeah well in fact we do you guys realize we actually have two airports in this city zoned as airports don't see any Sunset Marina and America Marina zoned as airports I think those are topics for another discussion I I I don't disagree but I'm going to get to the bottom of we're confident of that is is there any other questions on book of flight is there any other questions no I a motion motion to adjourn second most second all in favor by saying I iour