we are uh call to order the comprehensive land use planning committee meeting they have uh everyone stand for the Pledge of Allegiance Pledge ALG to the flag the United States of America to the it stands Nation indivisible Justice may have call please excuse me chairman Matthew cobbler here member here member Johnny ER couver here member Denise McKenzie let the record show that member Denise McKenzie is absent from today's meeting thank you uh do we have any comments from the general public when signed up does it appear that anybody wants to speak uh comments from uh the city manager and committee members any member ho I have none the name it's better enough but not on the record and I have no uh comments uh we'll get into uh the first agenda item which is an introduction discussion of the comprehensive land use planning committee um I'm sure everyone here is familiar with what the uh mission of the uh comprehensive land use plan committee is uh but to briefly go over it in the charter the um the charter creates the comprehensive land use plan committee and as a city well let me just read this real quick City shall prepare a comprehensive land use plan which shall be in compliance with General law the club as it were when approved by the council grow and expansion control plan from time to time in accordance with General law or when deemed necessary the council shall appoint a four-person committee to review and modify the clock the city manager shall chair the committee the other three members shall be qualified voters uh further in the uh code it lays out what the powers and authorities are for the comprehensive land use land committee it reads the comprehensive land use plan committee shall provide the planning zoning board and the city council with recommendations regarding the comprehensive land use plan along with perent information to substantiate their recommendations as provided in this chapter Council called us uh forward uh for actually one primary reason but uh there's been kind of an underlying uh issue going on as well that we're going to try to w wrap up committee I put in the agenda only one of those which is the uh discussion primarily of the uh change in the uh land use plan related to the uh the Water overlay District but at the same time there are a number of updates being done by our planner as well which we have and we introduce her in a second um that I thought should gone to this committee but has not gone to this committee and so hopefully we can kind of wrap it all together into one and present it then to I don't know what the time frame we'll talk a little bit about that um in one recommendation then on to the um zoning planing zoning and then on to city council any questions on all all that I just had um has this been recorded by the way it is if we if we turn it off will that this big Echo it it should be well he's got to have it on in order to hear but wh by recing go but I'm trying to turn it down a little turn it down a little bit more yeah oh cool okay so uh let's start first with the uh item goad much better okay thank you let's start uh with item number two which is the uh listed on the topic is Imagine Cody River Landing and I want to introduce Tammy ver of fana Consulting and she is the uh City's consultant as it comes to all these difficult planning issues that this might not have been the best operation here so okay well thank you U let me take my glasses off my name is Tammy Verana and as uh the city manager mentioned my company is ver Consulting and I've been in business for myself for uh almost 17 years and I just to give you a little bit of background I grew up in the area um went to G middle and Gulf High School and my very first planning job was at Pasco County back in the late 80s um I also have supported the city in the past past um on a comprehensive plan I believe it was uh in the early 90s and uh at that time the company I was working with was Wade trim and they were also uh helped the city to EST establish the Waterfront overlay district and at that time I think it was called The Waterfront Intermodal master plan District anyway there was some names that came about and then most recently over the past I think it's 12 or 13 years I've been supporting the city with just as needed typically development review um any sort of zoning amendments and things like that just whatever whatever uh you guys need support with so uh just to give you a little bit of background on myself so um the city manager asked me to put together just sort of a preliminary scope of services to um to engage the community into sort of a vision in a future for the Cody River Landing area and it's been some time since um the the community went through a process like that I think maybe and I don't have all my notes with me I wasn't prepared to to give the whole history but when the city uh the community initially talked about the Waterfront overlay district and and what that what that vision entailed and then you'll see a lot of that um Vision elements that are within the plan that was developed and also the uh Land Development regulations that were established for that the comprehensive plan isn't very I mean there's a little bit on the waterfront overlay District but not not a ton which I think it could be um embellished as we move forward with updating the plan we'll talk about that later so um I understand from you know I I watch your meetings at home that seems like they pop up on the YouTube and I'm like oh why not I'll watch um so I there is an interest in engaging the community uh you know intently for anything because this is their this is their downtown right this is the the center of the community so what we had um just preliminarily put together was that there would be um let me get down here a little bit so I can see um a a community visioning Workshop that would occur over a series of days that the first one would bring everybody together to learn about the the district you know the the data the the trends the uh just all the sort of information that we can put out in front of people so they can really get a sense of what's happening out there what what are the regulations that are that are in place today um has been achieved what hasn't been achieved you know what remains to um to fulfill the initial Vision um at that very first juncture we would have stations that would be set up around a room with the different topics you know could be Transportation it could be land use here could be just different elements that the just to bring the community up to speed about really what's you know because not everybody is really thinking about all these elements all the time they're thinking about how they feel when they go to that what sort of um opportunities are there for them as they you know interact with the area um so we also in included in this a walking tour so that after they leave the the the area where they're looking at the data they could go over and actually be with a um people who who could Point things out to them and say this is this is what we're working with you know these are the the streets and this is you know kind of pointing things out to people that may not always be seeing those different facets um when they're there just you know interact engaging with the or uh enjoying the the property the the the district then the second day would actually be the visioning process get down there um where we would bring everybody together in a room we would recap the first day's activity um some of the um observations that were would be made and then we would look into the day two activities um and that would IND um go over sort of the demographic policy and a marketing questionnaire so getting some sense of who's in the room you know how they um use the district you know what's going on with the market in the area what types of retail would be appropriate there just we would come up with questions that we would uh start the session off with and then uh there would be some opportunity for people to interact with imagery so a visual preference survey or some type of Graphics to where people could say they could lean towards do do you like this or do you like this do you like this do you like this and then that would be a a quantitative like a ranking process to where you would actually get some numeric you know um indications as to what people's preferences are for the area and then the third day of the workshop would be um coming back with a vision translation so what did we learn on day one and day two and then we would roll that into some scenarios so um based on what the community heard we could show different ways that the input could be translated into uh imagery and that um we would present those uh results indicating the key preferences um providing a shared understanding of what people like for the uh visual preferences of the area and then um so and then we'd give get them together in small groups so that they could look at how the things that they learned about on the previous days could be incorporated into um um a vision for the area and then there would be a third opportunity this would be later after things have been pulled together I actually skipped ahead to that so blank out the area about their synthesis because that that'll take a little bit of time bringing people together saying that um this is what came out of the process what do you think do you think that this conveys what the community's values and preferences are for the area so um so essentially it would be workshopping over three days coming back with a synthesis of the uh information and um getting the The public's input on that final synthesis of the information and then from there the city would do scoping as to what needs to be done to fulfill that Vision including uh but not limited to amending your comprehensive plan to look at what's allowed in the Waterfront area per the future land use map and then also in the Land Development code relative to um you know maximum height and maximum floor area ratios and different sort of development intensity sort of Standards so that is just one way that we came up with but certainly we are open to uh you know the the committee's insights and and familiarity and um expertise and let me just say that we wanted to come in here with an idea so we could discuss an idea um to try to uh to put together kind of what the public believes to be the the the vision for that area but we want your input and saying we need more of this less of that or ask questions of what the vision is for that public input um let me take a step back though good so this process if if ultimately we have to complete a Amendment to the community plan the way this correct me if I'm wrong the way this would work is first this would make a recommendation on the planning then ultimately on to the city council that we needed to make a a change to the uh comprehensive plan then Council would uh agree if if they wanted to say they do uh we would send I think right after they they do the uh legislation the first reading of the legislation it goes on to the state if I'm not mistaken and they have to review it for a certain time yeah so um because it would entail not only a future Landes plan Amendment but also text amendments to your comprehensive plan it would be more um it's not a rigorous review because there's like some layers now with the comp plan amendments so like small scale amendments aren't even required to be sent to the state uh but for text amendments or um higher level like updating your entire comprehensive plan there is a state review process about 60 days so again the thing that we need flush out as part of this and we need to get the public input on is again one of the driving factors is a developer that wants to do a fairly comprehensive change to uh the district and the the two main areas that they would be seeking the city to change their comprehensive plan is in the height restrictions or allowable Heights within that WOD as well as the density um although we don't have exact numbers we have estimates of what they're they're asking for um that's something we have to flush out in terms of what what the community is willing to do there if anything related to a change in the plan going forward and we also thought it might be important that with the different scenarios that might be might evolve through this is to tie sort of what the community benefits would be to having a a different or a refreshed vision in the area so you know what sort of public amenities or um just you know pretty much public amenities what sort of how can this this District be embody the community wants to see out of it you know out of a downtown there's a lot of public space opportunities for you know walking and shopping and um recreating and you know so how could a development scenario help you facilit itate or fund some of those Community amenities that the public wants to see so that might be a a way of looking at you know if when you have this you can afford this or you can partner to get um certain amenities but that is something that certainly how that's rolled out will need to be discussed and you know strategy uh developed my guess is the first step is actually where we'll have to get this engagement so we can start that process because nothing's G to move without this going forward exact the state won't even bother looking at it unless we can say we've gotten input from the uh citizens done all the the back work instead of trying to ran something through that's true um they they want to see the process followed probably more than actually what comes to the modifications of the text they don't you know whatever we want is kind of what we want to a degree yeah but they want to make sure that everyone has had their input and they don't have someone coming in at the back and at the end saying I never had my representation I never had any input and this whole thing's been ramrodded through so first is I agree with this getting a a draft put together and the only reason I'm looking at is because I I have a digitally um the the proposal digitally the concern I have for this proposal and I know you said it's a draft work and copy is um I guess kind of simp simplifying it somewhat you're looking at three separate dates not necessarily full days for this um so ideally it's a workshop event in the evening a shet light I mean the certain we can talk about the services that would be available at that charet but typically a charet allows for sort of people coming and going and not necessarily it's a whole day they might you know maybe some activities are during the day some maybe some are in the evening but you have an opportunity for someone to plug in at somewhere along and not everybody is interested in the the start to the end they want to just come in and hear what's going on but other people may be more Hands-On and they they want to do that walking tour and they want to um touch and feel the data and and supplement the data like to say what what do we have uh what's additional information that we need that will help us make a better decision in this area so this is a little bit more of a um intensive sort of approach that people could plug in how they wanted to but we were trying to figure out a way to make it as meaningful on the early Pro process um as we could as opposed to just saying well we're going to you know and usually we do like three touch points with a community you know like there's we're starting off here's the intro um this is what we're planning on doing and we're going to engage you and then you develop stuff and then you go back to them and say you know based on what we heard from you and that first point the the input stage did we get it right and then you go back and finalize it and then you say this is what we came up with so it's essentially that those three touch points this one just has a little bit more of a rigorous beginning and and and only because we heard that you wanted to have really substantial public engagement on this but certain that's up to interpretation so yeah I mean look I I think the public engagement personally is great and and needed I think again we're a small community um everyone knows the WOD they know the area they they you know we're only what three square miles tops I'm not sure the walking tour is as important for that because they know where the WD you know they know geographically where the W is we could outline the limits of the wods to tell them what we're talking about I think and again two council members you could probably tell me more but the more important part is especially with this upcoming potential development the public needs to be made aware of what some of these changes entail so I happen to know a little bit about the upcoming development I know you know that they're looking to increase the height of the buildings what does that mean to me as a as a resident probably more importantly though they're right now the WOD is8 units per Aker I believe is its current zoning they're looking to substantially increase that what does that mean and what does that look like because if I told you you're going from eight units per acre to 50 units per acre I know what that means you know what that means he may not know what that means in general and that's really the explanation we need to give the resident and and truly it means different things in different contexts correct and and and it's multi so but with the overall impacts I'm in development in as part of my business so I know what different things happen the average citizen does not know right what and and in terms of the The Proposal I think we really need to um spend less time as to what the area is because everyone knows what the area is here but what the area could look like or what these changes entail if I go from and I think it's 75 ft here2 72 ft and they were looking to go to 90 or something like that at one point0 110 so what what does that mean in the grand scheme of thing what what does a 72 foot building look like versus 110 foot building two more floors but what how do how do we explain that to a resident and say well okay yeah do two more floors really impact you maybe maybe not that's the resident's choice but also probably the and to me the more important one is the density that they're going after because that and I think you you know as you alluded to you know coming up with that number is it could mean different things in different context and you know it's just all how you arrange things and you know perhaps it's more of like a visual so we were prep preparing this idea of a visual preference survey to where people could react to different elements I mean it could it could be buildings and it could also be the streetscape you know what's what's the public realm look like in this area because in a lot of cases when you're in an area and the public realm is right you really can't even see the buildings I mean you can if you're across the river and looking this way because that might be of concern to community members but um but really what is the um you know what are the preferences and what are the possibilities in this area because maybe if people see what the possibilities are then maybe it wouldn't be um it wouldn't be such a stretch to change the vision that that's that exists today because right now the vision is for um like a fishing Village or you know like a quain and you know I know I I worked on that earlier plan and um certainly have worked a lot with West Pasco communities and everybody wants to be a small town and just have that sort of feel but then others in other cases you really do get a lot of um especially in a location where you don't really have a downtown you know you have your little your Center there you have some businesses and but I think that is there a want for more in the community for I don't know I mean that's something that would need to be drawn out within these Community meetings and I think the visuals if people can react to visuals as opposed to metrics cuz you know that's abstract you know I even have a hard time understanding you know it has to be like that's why we thought the walking tour would be good because you've been there you know you've gone to eat dinner and you've walked around and you've been there a million times but have you really ever looked at what it could be like you know and that's maybe something that the lay person is just not thinking about the the other problem that many people into I'm familiar with this is even if you walk down the streets if I stuck a 110 foot building 85 foot building whatever the number is next to you they wouldn't be able to comprehend standing on a street what does two 70 I'll say 72 foot buildings look like right next to me and that's where we have to make sure especially if we're looking to increase it we have to make sure everyone understands what their what that looks like at the end end of the day and the impacts overall because now you're actually looking at ladder trucks and and other impacts right to it for fire perspective impact yeah there there is physical impacts there there's infrastructure impacts physical yeah and physical yeah both there there there's there's um uh I lost my train of thought there's uh um totally lost my train there's environmental there's aesthetic there's there there's traffic impacts there all kinds of impacts that the density and the height specifically and probably most directly impact over the course of the city that's fine if everyone wants to go in that direction but they need to understand and part of this committee and I think council's committee and yours and and everybody's is all right if we want to go in this direction this is what you're getting at the end of the day and and make sure we we show that to them as best as possible um the first pass at that is this draft and that's why I'm going into a long- winded explanation because again Le less important everyone knows what we have right now I think a wa personally I think a walking tour of the area they're not going to be able to comprehend what what those impacts of of of even if they were to build it what's currently designed what those impacts are right um and also you know again there there's a reason for density versus height because that gives you square footages at the end of the day the reason you go for square footages is it's the level of what is being built there the the quality of of the the multif family that is going in there versus a business because the the eight units per Acres uh affecting directly your multif family you still have far I believe well above that so that's where you get your retail and your other uh establishments the the the density affects and I'll use for an example if I have an eight-story building and I have eight units per acre and I have an eight-story building on one acre I can put eight units in so that is eight units of very high-end condo type development if I quadruple that to 50 units per acre my square footage is a minimum there of only 1100 square feet or whatever in that area that's a lower end residential unit just by its near square footage does the does the do the people understand what they're getting by raising their either raising their height restrictions Andor keeping their height restrictions the same and raising the densities the units get smaller better for a developer because he he gets a better return on his investment but is that the is that the quality of the unit you want in your Prime area downtown that's something they have to look at as well and understand what they're getting mhm so there's a lot to this change overall that we generally have to lay out it's fine if they want it but they got to understand what they want so let me add bit to this so when you talk about the walking tour and that you tell me I should take them down there with and that first day activity could just be taken away if you think that there's a lot of familiarity well yeah so I guess what I was getting at is you know I don't like like atdd says you know take them down they're they're familiar with it you're not going to be able to put virtual buildings up so they can you know kind of see what they're doing but you could do that in a virtual environment and I don't know if if this an option or not but you know they do have virtual goggles or whatever that you can walk through something I don't know if that's something you guys do or not but even even not that just on the screen kind of a guided tour that you guys have put together a fly by if you will to kind of give them a feel that they're kind of seeing what it's going to be like or or or similar areas that have that you know Safety Harbor probably has something very similar already intact what does safety Harbors look like with this similar density and and just a visual representation of what they're getting not necessarily even to the Waterfront overlay if I take you to Tampa I mean Tampa's very has a lot of areas eore city has a lot of areas of where that's trying to go maybe just even a a video tour of that area and say this is where it's going is this what you want here in Waterfront H and I think that that that's a good point and also I think bring you're almost bringing the walking tour inside by using logistically you're going to I mean yeah I don't know how many people gonna show up for this in different times of day it'd be tough to do that I have any value be honest with you yeah I don't know if you want to you wooden walk from here to there but um but it would be something where you could Point things out and you certainly could Point things out on a screen and it just wouldn't be the same impact of like seeing how much is out there versus like what you visual what you remember from the last time you were there in this particular context but certainly that first day if there's not as enough value or think people won't participate or they don't need to do that we could take that one uh away and then incorporate sort of the context um presentation in the body of the the second day and I think what you mentioned too sorry to point it's my bad habit um that's the worst thing I have um I think about in Safety Harbor because I have like we do have one development in downtown that seems to uh I've looked at all the uh the metrics of it and you know it's a nice development it has commercial and office like retail office and it has apartments on the back and it's on one acre so so you can kind of visualize well one acre well this is one acre in the Waterfront District and or the Cody Cody River Landing and perhaps you could think about that development being plopped down and that helps me I'm not a I'm not an urban designer or a physical planner I'm more of a policy planner but we may want to get some expertise inhouse to help sort of um you know Bridge these two things together so I'm a public involvement specialist and a policy planner um but I'm not an architect and I think an architect might be able to and even put the graphics as you're saying together um for the scenarios and I like to I like the current state taking well you start off with here's this slate maybe a drone fly over whatever here's what we're looking at and kind of focus on an area like say the old trailer park lot that big area there here's what it is now here's the footprint and then you take whatever your model is you kind of overlay that so if we did something like this this is would it look like and feel like kind of it gives you a sense of scale of what what could fit there and also what the character of it and how it relates potentially to um the rest of the district because there's a lot of different Parcels out there and how they all fit together um is going to be important but that's you know how you work that into your regulations is like a Next Step but you know it's good to be thinking ahead as to what you would do another another question I had um because obviously this this comprehensive land use Plan update encompasses much more than just the WD that's just a piece of it right so is this an IT approach that we can because obviously time is of the essence on the WD portion of it is it okay to focus on that make any updates to that and then come back and look at other sections of the city as well or do you have to do it all at once or how's that work you don't have to do it all at once um there is a an update an they called an evaluation and appraisal report and then you identify it used to be a much more rigorous or more involved process where you did a visioning like I did it in Newport Richie back in the middle 2000s I guess and you know we we did a major issues visioning and so we came up with five or six things that we were going to focus on in updating the comp plan and we went through that but the state took that requirement away now all the cities have to do and counties is to say where don't you match the statute so it's a very quick process we do need to do that that type of an update within I think we need to have it in by July it sooner would be better I think just to but um that was the other piece that I thought we could wrap into this that's the work order that Amy had put together for those other elements based upon that review that we yeah the review but you can update your comprehensive plan There's No Limit anymore there used to be two times a year but now there's no limit so you could um address that because that's easy that piece that it's in front of you um I mean there's some things to do but it's not I don't think it's a big Community decision point this is a statutory thing requirement that we got to do it every seven years seven years every seven years and we're due for that right so we have to we have to do something it's not a lot I think you know maybe in the past it was just a couple of things that you had to do this one has a water supply facilities work plan that's a little bit more more involved um the uh Peril of flood which I'm working on that now and actually at your next meeting I'd like to present those preliminary ideas for the Peril of flood policies just to get your thoughts on that before we send it off to the state um those would actually be incorporated in this uh Janu or excuse me June July submitt based on that statutory requirement but for your Grant under the vulnerability assessment the state de P wants to just look at your preliminary uh parallel flood policy so it doesn't have to be adopted just as like this is what we're kind of tracking to um to update so there's a lot of different layers here but if you want to go into a more indepth update of your comprehensive plan because it it's a 2020 plan right now which means that it it didn't expire but the Horizon Is 2020 so you probably want to push that out to you know 20 30 probably 2040 to do like a um a 10 year plan at least a 10 years has to be at least 10 years but it could be more um but you I know that you're updating your community redevelopment plan right now you're probably going to get a lot of good information from that that would fit within your comprehensive plan somehow so I think a lot of your heavy lifting is probably going to happen in that community redevelopment plan that we can ironically though a lot of this actually intertwines back with what we're you know because if this the first thing meaning the that actually significantly influences this plan from your water supply your transportation plan and then it flips back to the CRA plan because then once if that's redeveloped that actually gets pulled out of the CRA there's no way the state would ever allow that to stay in the CRA now the CRA basically becomes Grant and Grant in that little area and a little bit of the Southside and that's it that's your CRA so you know you're having a lot of and the reason I'm saying this is you know you're having the upcoming CRA discussions based off of an idea of a sum coming in if this goes through which amends this the a fund coming in go down but is it true that it would have to come out I mean it hasn't been achieved yet it's only till after when you go to do your renewal if you if there's another CRA I know that they always get to the end and you decide if they're going to have you have you had your renewal like they're usually 30 renewal I don't think the renewal is been done yet but I mean from a planning perspective 2032 is when it's to be renewed yeah but in reality though from a planning perspective just looking at what the council's looking at a lot of it is intertwined because the development goes through look if these people don't do it and all of those changes somebody's going to do it it it's right right just the growth of the a matter of what of The Who and the what yeah exactly the vision so all that comes out though is is the end result and that significantly impacts your CRA so this goes through do you really want to have the planning of the CRA that's going to have to change in three years anyway theoretically well yeah I'm here just to make things nice and easy for everybody about the the CRA plan and and that's tracking through and certainly I I think there's one public engagement event for that CRA plan so yeah I mean you enough to it's not intensive enough to really like focus on that District but I think it could open the door to Future discussions on the district I mean and you're right everything fits together and that's always the conundrum that we're in was like oh but that plan is going to be adopted in three years and but you just have to yeah start you know you gota you gotta some you got to start somewhere start somewhere that's what we kind of all I mean I kind of in my mind I'm thinking relative to the comp plan and the statutory requirements and the overall update and the CRA plan I kind of have a sense on how those would work together but this Waterfront piece is a little bit more of a you know it's it's it's a big B step for the community so I think you need to have a lot of attention it's the single biggest impact this city will ever see yep yep what's the What's the statutory deadline July something I think we have to have them in um I think it's July 5th if I ever recall is it is it feasible to to touch up what needs to be touched up I guess with with this stuff here and look the WD and what everever changes Ian it that process coincide with us or we need to do this kind of separate stream and then come back you can do them concurrently easily yeah you could do them you could do them concurrently I think um but you may not May yeah it may you may process them with different I'll say like staff reports like this is what's going through and you know you you bring it to your Planning and Zoning Board and city council and it get but maybe at the same time there's also another amendment pack the packages are going together at the same time so they don't have to be we they could yeah we could get this done and then turn say in July if that's the date and then turn around and amend in August if you had an applicant that was coming in to amend the future you had two applicants for the future land use map they could both go at the same time just two packages that go you know they they track together but the um because the state would probably be looking at different things with the a bigger land use plan Amendment and text amendments for the comp plan and you know and as you mentioned before they'll um they'll scrutinize it and it's not so much the public engagement as it is impact so can can the roads handle it can the do pipes handle it what are the environmental impacts and they're looking more at Regional or Statewide impacts they're not really so micro focused on every little thing as they've been in the past but certainly you know dot is going to want to make sure that US1 19 is still flowing well and um that you know just that there's going to be your your basic level of service standards are going to be able to continue to be met um and that you're there's not any major environmental impacts I mean the biggest thing that he that that would affect is the the sanitary in the in the water 19 will handle almost anything it's large enough yeah it it's the individual City level those how does Pasco County sewage adopt this right and that again that flows right back to your densities well in the development when they put that plan together there's impact fees and stuff to to modify those both on the city level on the county level now there's a lot of cities and and counties that well cities more usually that'll come back and say you know what we do not have the capacity to take your development right now you're done come back to us in two to three years and and you know the developer will be sitting there with his impact fees but his impact fees are are calculated based off of the size of the development not necessarily what the city needs so let's say for instance to make all of our developments go through and and we we we blow out everything in the city and we want to be a little mini Tampa if Pasco County has to build a new sanitary sewage treatment plan you could pay all the impact fees in the world it five years before you get a sanitary sewage fee or sanitary sewage plant built and operational minimum you can't get a certificate of occupancy until you have the services in place they won't even issue the permit because you have to get a a usually they call it a notice of um notice of capacity from the from the local jurisdiction that says yes we can at as looking right now yes we can take this development you don't get that you won't even get a build of permit so you don't even get approval to go through a building permit in my mind not field P obviously but you know normally you don't necessarily have um large overc capacity so that stuff come in and fill that normally this the stuff is coming in being developed and you have to catch up to what you need right so in our case whatever this density would be for for this particular project we may need an additional weld if you know addition Super Capacity whatever bigger pipe size as part of that development I would think that would be that would that would go together that that infrastructure upgrade with with the project itself we wouldn't just they wouldn't build it and we'd be okay with it if we ar okay with it we would they wouldn't build it that would be the the the driving force that would actually make those modifications it to a degree yes you are correct but it it's where does it where does it end so you put on a new development this new development would need new new water lines new sewer lines probably new pump stations all of that within the city that would that would say yes but okay so it goes to a pump station that's in the city then the pump station pumps to this Pump Station that's out of the city can that line support the upgrade can that pump station now support the can then it goes to the uh uh the treatment plan itself can the sewage treatment plan the developer is not going to pay for all the upgrades all the way to the sewage treatment plan including the sewage treatment plan the county will just say no there's no capacity and then it stops all the way back to here so let's say this just a further explain this so let's say the capacity of the city we can handle that or whatever that you know they're coming in so instead of what six inch pipes we need eight it's F down or whatever that is and that all gets taken care of during the development whatever as we hand that that off um obviously part of that planning process I would think goes beyond just the city don't they don't they have to work with the county too because that's where the county as well right because the state comes in and says well you know you're amending your comprehensive land use committee because now you want to put in the WD District super dense 12,000 unit condo complex that's where the we're and I'm now I'm pointing at you but that's where uh she said that the the city or the state reviews all of this because they say well wait a minute now city of Port Richie wants to put in 12,000 units can the whole area just support this or is this silly and that's and that's the EV that's what you would need to demonstrate as the city and also the adjacent local governments the county and Newport Richie would also be one of those reviewing agencies because there's a whole that's where the amendment to the comprehensive right plan use that's where it all comes sure so so once you have the vision that the community's preference for this area you can start to pencil that out to see well can we achieve that what is it going to cost you know from the public side you know what sort of um participation could be by the private side you know there's all that and you're probably more in a position to think about some of like how those things all get hashed out because it really is kind of it's a negotiation right between your development you know and the the public um expenditures but but from a policy perspective we'd have to look at what are the impacts and it's at the top of whatever it is you're asking for as far as your density and intensity what is the impact of that future land use category um density intensity on your ability to meet your level of service standards in our analysis do we look outside the city for this this is take this is just within our boundary right it is but we submit it then then they look at it right yeah but but of a I mean again we're kind of diverging for a development of that size you would actually have to address the the developer at least in the city should mandate that there's a sign off from hint hint um the adjacent County uh services to make sure so they have to go through County you would should have to go through County approval because it's their utilities also supporting that of the city and there is an interlocal agreement that all the local governments um share their development proposals with each other so that they can weigh in anything that might be extra jurisdictional impact um and again I don't know the the size of this development on it's substantial from what I saw so especially through all those phases so it would impact your overall comprehensive plan and that's why I keep circling back you kind of got to take yes you can put it through but if you put through yeah we're not touching our comprehensive plan that much and tweak tweak tweak tweak tweak tweak oh by the way here's all this and now we got to go back through and then put this back through again and it it's a massive well I think in in the timing of this so these things will be going on simultaneously I think we would be in a position before the July uh information has to go to have a pretty good understanding from The public's perspective what where this is kind of going right yeah we got to get it we got to get their impact and you know even the the water supply facilities work plan would be an opportunity too to think about because you're going to be looking at your system what your water supply is you know what are the what's the projected population or or water usually usually the demand is based on your population but it incorporates your non non-residential uses as well but how are your plans for the future affecting your ability to provide water so that's probably that's also a good opportunity that this is happening at the same time I believe we're bumping up against our capacity at this point from our your water use plan not on the water we're still good yeah oh good well that's a positive that's that's what I was told but we don't you know have a master plan for that in the system analysis so reserve the right to change to verify and that would need to be really evaluated too because if there is a substantial uh impact let's you can't syn any more Wells I believe I don't know for that for sure but one you have to verify if you can or you can't if you can't sync and you're at your capacity you're now buying water what does that look like to the citizens and when they're if we're buying water theoretically our water rates may go up I don't know it's more expensive it is more expensive to purchase it than than pump it so and the reason I'm bringing that up is that needs to be brought up because once once they vote on it and it goes through that's great if you want to see the grow your property values will likely go up that's the bonus is that in the Citizen's interest um because there's going to be negatives to it Oh They'll be Chang I won't say negative there'll be changes it won't be the sleepy little [Music] city I'm just scrolling through the WOD goals from that 2002 plan and there were five main goals to enhance and Revitalize the city's economic focal point to improve physical image to protect the natural environment allow a variety of commercial uses and improve internal compatibility and function I'm not sure what that fifth one means but the first four would be impact well the internal compatibility I think are land uses because you know back in the day and probably still there's probably some uses that aren't like totally compatible with the vision and then the function how those all work together because that's important too in a in a district especially one that you want to be walkable and so that's just on as side your best path forward is to sign get both of these executed with so start this you're running out of that's why we're here today have a um and I guess we'll have to work on the visual preference aspect of the elements that we show and how we go about finding those the images so if you have a a variet if you have any ideas on um other districts or other downtowns that you think could offer different uh scale that the community could react to I mean um you mentioned Safety Harbor as one but again there's several like I mean eore city has that density and what they're looking for not necessarily on the water but they have several areas yeah that again there's so much that's been built in the last three years it's just wherever you go there's like whole new and and since the the developer is driving not this one but the other one maybe they can make a little path to work with their architect because their architect does that kind of stuff all day long right and just find some suggestions because he he had um um areas that he was thinking of when they were putting the design together and so start working with that so they can start displaying what they're going to you know to the citizens I think that was their intent to to work with us I'm sure yeah they offered to uh help in any way they could to uh you know get get this completed so yeah I'm sure they're going to be extraordinarily helpful as much as they can again we have to make our separation right right make sure we maintain distance but they can suggest what they were thinking of so we can suggest it to the cstem absolutely nothing wrong with that I think trans you know transparency is your friend you know at this point which you understand well not that I mean as as things come up they're I think they're willing to to tweak to there's going to be tweaks what what you saw is not what's going to go through ultimately I'll guar I'll virtually guarantee it because it never I've yet to see an initial uh concept go through unimpeded right it will be the first time in my 25 year career but and I had this note to ask after conversation but this is a good I think part to get into it is is their value in having them come to a committee meeting talked about what their plans are we can maybe have this conversation with them related to preparing some of the visuals potentially for for our uh our public engagement I mean for this part for the for the comprehensive the total comprehensive there is probably no need for for their individual part again it can't hurt to work with them I don't know if you want them there yet you may want to talk with your attorney on it because then does that become a public hearing on the development right um I don't know that answer uh I've never shown up to something like that before but that doesn't necessarily mean anything um but you do have to make sure that you know if it's coming up on upcoming a genda items what's that delineation and is there a delineation before that but they can provide assistance as to what they were thinking of in what direction and what does that look like in what comparable areas so it can be displayed for public review if they you know if they Public's even in because you and may put it up and our citizens say no I want that sleepy little old area and that's all I care about and there's massive about in which case that kind of kills the rest of it fairly quickly hey just to clarify something relative to the density um the future land use category and the commercial mixed use which is the line share of the area is 18 units per acre but you mentioned at eight is that on the W that there was since it falls under category that falls to eight un well I'm looking I could be wrong I'm looking at the WOD zoning and but I don't see any and was pointing out the standards I don't see maybe it is 18 it's been a while since I looked at it but I will tell you just own info so it's 18 units per acre per the land use category and a 6 F so that's pretty low that's very low it's very low what's oh the floor area ratio how much building you can put on your property so if you have a 1 acre parcel You're Building footprint plus it's improvements can be 6 Acres so you could be one acre and 60% of that could be building footprint or you could do two stories and you could only be using 30% of your footprint so you can you can go tall and that's one of the potential advantages to going a little taller is that you could have more land area for public amenities Green Space and things like that um and then also well then parkings a whole whole other situation so that's that is the citizens really need to understand is that original I didn't even realize that was that low that 66 is quite low um that is not a dense area at all um so they would actually I'm surprised they haven't even talked to you about ratio yet I'm I'm sure it's all been evaluated and I mean they know that something pictures I saw they had it oh no no I think they're thinking that the comp plan would need to be amended oh okay support yeah because they were pretty much curb to curb from what I saw yeah so yeah that that citizens really need to understand that that I think will look nothing like it does I think a good strategy might be to look at some of those different locations that have sort of a character that would be conducive to a Down down toown District of this size and look at different building Heights you know what's on a on a parcel almost like I keep referring back to the zeph or not Zephyr Hills Safety Harbor one because I have looked at that one site and evaluated you know what the f and the um density iseler tell them you know here's downtown safy yeah here's here's or even like districts of of St Petersburg yeah whatever and and as another one here's what is also being proposed by the developer where does it fall in these I have no idea where it falls but at least that gives people something to look at and compare to well we talked about like a four like four scenarios that would start with what's envisioned there today under the 6 and 18 units per acre all the way to you know what this maximum might be which which it might be this ask right but then then there's in between maybe two more yeah that we kind of and it's something to react to and say well we like this one but not maybe a little less or we like this one but a little bit you know so it's something that maybe you could do the sliding scale of what's appropriate for Port Richie um and maybe the community could grasp you know that even at 18 units per acre that isn't super dense that's a higher end multi yeah another thing about residential too is would you uding to with the square footages you know density you know one unit can be a giant unit or it could be a tiny unit and you go for it and and I guess that's a matter of of how much square footage do you want to seed over to residential in this District or you know because I don't know if residential was initially discussed was it it was okay okay they're looking for Fairly drawings I saw no today day in Your Vision oh was was residential no was all commercial no it was a mix I mean the future land use does allow for a mix but I didn't know that the WD was all commercial down there maybe it did right now it's all commercial that's what she ask no I thought what the initial Vision was for is what she asked is the initial Vision a mixed use commercial an yeah that that's what it was Z the zoning didn't allow for that zoning allows for to this is the Waterfront overlay District uh zoning that's the 18 units that I was to this is Waterfront this is zoning to allow for a variety of commercial uses including recreational aquatic activities eating establishments and Specialty retail to allow the conversion of the Waterfront into an attractive destination um I don't I don't believe it mentions residential change you got to change everything for because I thought that properties that were purchased and demolished was convert from residential to commercial so they couldn't be residential they they were a single family residence which falls under an R1 the reason they were demolished is an R1 does not is a non-conforming completely in that District so if there was multifam there four units plus that would fall under a a commercial aspect multifam but that doesn't I mean does what so there does need to be a little bit of primer as to what the vision is and what the standards say to say this is what you can do today in this area and this is what you've achieved so far and this is what remains to be achieved and then talking about these different scenarios and so that people can understand well today residential component is not included what you can do though is you know what's what are the benefits to having residential in this District or what's what are the pros and cons of the different land Juice mix that you would have out there in some cases when you've got residential in a district people can live and work and play Within that one spot and they don't have to add to the the traffic but then if you're limited you know is or you have a parking scheme in mind where maybe Park that all that's going to go on parking garages there's no way around have to do yeah but where where are the park the buildings that you're building okay under okay well that's why that's why raising the the again we're kind of getting ahead of ourselves a little bit raising the building height restrictions you kind of need it for the parking garages because you don't have depending on what densities you got to park them somewhere we can't you can't keep parking them in the Open Fields that you are so it's got to go in a park a p Podium parking garage right and your building goes on top of it so you need a higher building to allow it could be like what new P Richie has a parking structure and a circulator the only people who put are putting in parking garages are governments cuz everything else is very expensive on 30 years and who knows what's going to be happening in 30 years with Transportation so yeah about that parking that you're putting on the like the pedestal parking though isn't that yeah that but that's part of the building and and that's owned by the the the the condo owner so technically when they buy their unit they also buy the parking space at $3,000 dollar a space so the developer actually makes money on the parking garage and or on the parking garage Mak money on the the unit themselves yeah on a sale basis if you go there's other criteria to that as well but for the city to put in a parking garage to support the developer would be absolutely asset yeah I don't don't quote me on this but I want to say that they had parking plans fact I think they were new technology type parking plan or something that like that carvana stuff where you oh yeah okay but anyway um I mean there's a lot of things that on a Podium so to kind of wrap back to where we need to be so with with the um scoping for this do you feel that you have enough from this dialogue to put something together to get us there for the ow yeah I think I'll go back and based on what I've heard I'll revise the scope and then you guys are going to meet again in two weeks February late February yeah why so then we can also talk about the Peril of flood preliminary Peril of flood policy thinking I was thinking uh at the towards the end of February to the beginning of March so and you were I think also I'll do is is um because I'll I'll put hours to this this time having a sense of where where you guys want to go but um would you like me to look into like getting an architect or an urban I mean just to like a a side scope or if we need it um I know that you've been working with heirs and there's a he there's an architect there that I work with his name is Benoy uh panic and so maybe I know I don't think he's done work for you in the Waterfront District but he's yeah there National firm so he's I mean it might be good just to reach out and Yeah find out what what that partnership will look like yeah so I think just would be good to consider yep so I was thinking the week of the 26th February 26 well it doesn't have to be the 26 yes February 26 could be the 29th let's do the 29th that's a Thursday yep the 29th yeah what time six did our uh fourth did she ever get back in terms of what 21st I think right 2 time of the day I mean is is this a good time of the day for everyone what's ever more convenient for you guys works I get paid by the minute what workday 45 4 45 45 425 start at 4:00 oh 425 um yeah that probably works for me I mean just depends but I mean we may have to shift around it works for me on the 29th I say that I don't have my work schedule in front of me but it that should be fine are you available then I am okay what time 4 4 p.m. and this won't this won't be the uh developer coming your original TS have that no I you know one of the things I'll do is is Amy is reaching out to get you know uh what the cost for someone else to partner to do some of that drawing I'll reach out to the developer and speak to them see what what what they can provide to us because they've done a significant amount of work already that could you reused to some degree actually yeah I mean I think it just would be supplemental if you needed it if if we ran into something where it was like Hey wouldn't it be good if we had this product to help with the the workshops or the visual preference survey or and that's what I'm thinking of as in the visual piece if if we're going to be doing more you know in this in this room virtually they may be willing to help uh it is something they theoretically would have to do if they were going before Tampa they would have to do a lot of these um visioning boards and and that sort of thing to but they probably wouldn't be giving you all the yeah they would be giving you but they but they would have an idea of what they used for their conceptual process so they can get you 80% there on really yeah we're just talking about massing what does the massing look like and I would think that um a significant part of this too would be the besides the building means it's everything else that the community may you know have uh thoughts around like the public spaces is going to be a huge quality you know what the walking environment is the public space is you know I know that there was I don't know has there been a talk about a a river walk or some sort of a yes feels like over the years that I mean that would be terrific um but some stuff like that that I think would be of probably equal importance to the community are somewhat of equal importance because that's where that's where they're going to be uh if unless you're living or you're owning a business out there the general public is going to want places that public places you know the the public realm it's got to be nice and that's that's my understanding that's a big part of the project is to maintain that I some of the developers are they live in a city I mean so it's not like they're coming from just putting up some buildings and yeah yeah they actually live here community so sure yeah they're they're creating a place this is placemaking right it's not just a development it's it's not a vision or whatever this is place place which is probably not normal right developers normally developing their own areas I that's that's just kind of a unique well like Water Street and they came in and I mean they totally transformed the whole place from Soup To Nuts so it's sometimes if if you have um enough control of properties then you can you can do that sort of thing well awesome well sorry I didn't have a presentation I didn't know what the of this was going to be but I would have usually brainstorming slides or something to guard me thank you okay thank you thank you very much anything [Music] else um the motion make it's not what do you mean don't get a motion anymore I don't get the motion to return why not it's not it's a committee there's no motions no now go ahead and Jour okay where J go back in the