##VIDEO ID:fSRTJ5TJyuQ## e e e e e e e e e e e e e okay ready I'm going to call to order the meeting the Planning and Zoning Board today is Tuesday December 10th it is now 105 p.m. please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance the United States of America to the Republic for which stands one nation under God indivisible liberty and justice for all can I have a roll call please chairman Sean Co here member Randy stout here member Lori Simpson here member Michael FZ let the record show that member Michael fres is not pres in today's meeting City attorney Nancy Meyer here perfect thank you all right first all old business um we have board minute minutes from the meeting on 81 funny doesn't feel like it's been that long do have any discussion or conversation regarding those minutes if not I will entertain motion a motion to approve second all favor I me there we go e all right I'll entertain any motions regarding the minutes motion to approve all in favor oh sorry second all in favor all right Miss Nancy right the floor so you can see your packet's a little thick today um what um Matt actually prepared a very nice cover sheet to explain to you why we're doing what we're doing but I'll tell you in a shorter version than the cover sheet tells you that we are reviewing the sign code um the city sign code hasn't been reviewed for almost 20 years it's outdated it's um has portions of it that are no longer allowed for federal law state law a lot of law um one of my colleagues attorney ashenfelder who has done a city sign code reviews for many many cities and towns did this for us he drafted the ordinance um you can see there's a lot of whereas Clauses just kind of explain the history of why sign codes needed to be changed after the federal cases that came out um that made some some pretty substantial changes um obviously feel free to read those but the most important thing we need you to do is start looking at this ordinance um And discussing has been stricken and what has been added um and you should have it in a hopefully it's sprad line so you can see that um and it is pretty substantial so um Mr Cur and I were discussing that maybe today we just want to maybe go an hour um and start with discussing the right page here one second the um section one 212 and 1213 starts on page 23 and go through all of the different signs of specifically listed and see how you feel about what's in there if you want to see something taken out if you want to see something else added and if haven't been an hour and you want to keep going we can if we've been an hour and you want to take a break so you can kind of think about that and come back next time and we'll do the rest of the sections um that might be an a good idea just not to overload you but you can do whatever you want as long as you consider it and make a recommendation to council sure is there someone here familiar with these different types of assigns what they need like activated sign activ sign yeah that be a sign that is because of approach movement sound sign to react whatever it is you kind see those in malls nowadays whereas you walk close to it it you know lights up something it dark and then it will throw out whatever it is next so usually something want snipe signon snipe sign you know what that is that one up never seen that it's a temporary sign attached to an object or structure that's not permitted to be there you're often finding them right away so in my my mind I would see like sometimes all of a sudden as you're driving down the road in the middle of like the median there's just a little sign they're advertising some yeah and this vehicle signs I know there's been controversy about like people getting dilapitated trucks or Vans and having their business sign on it just parking over there and they don't run or move or anything vehicle CER is different than wraps though correct it's different than a vehicle W correct or is the same thing well so there's two different aicle is it is itach to tr probably here as well truck bed has this kind of a aame sign on it is that particular sign or is it a wrapped vehicle say a truck that has the name of the business mainly they they generally refer to it in the for the lad always been in the area it's relatively in like a jeep that says snap real sides yes I was to be more specific I thought just I'll just kind of go there but where there difficulty in that though is there are some businesses especially those that are plaz that are set off roadway if you drive up 19 probably I'm going you'll see a vehicle with that business right right at the edge of and again find how that is I was in one city where we saw that as a sign would be aart there well we can stay there less than eight hours at a time right but if it's driving on the road it's not problem just but it's parked in a location to you know demonstrate that that is location of bus sometimes those are used to skir the actual sign they that instead been those do that and that's not right you have to change your code Cod doesn't press so really is ultimately up to you counil that that's address I know many H for instance right I don't think you're allowed to have point a number 7 and I'm reading this right the ones in Black are on the books now right right but it looks like it says you know anything less than 18 in projecting over a sidewalk is okay that was I interpret that right I would think you can't have anything over this less once it get over 1 why over would be okay my my guess is why they you probably find that the length size arur number that they um I I agree with what you're saying a lot of cities from liability perspective that can't have those type of signs at all over but you get into down situation only signs that really do that allow visibility up down street going to be sign from again in those cities those are permissible there's l engineering has they have a lot of I'm guessing there's language in here somewhere that for safety reasons on a particular sign the city could say it's not safe yeah there there is I think it's at the very end I think it's towards the end it talks about construction and inection okay all right at this time I'm I'm gonna open up to the public just SE yeah you guys are specifically to section 121-3 any questions if there aren't any you guys are good with that list the way it is then obviously I have a personal question you're to ask for number six vehicle signs I would like to see that to be clarified obviously as a business owner who lives in the city owns multiple properties in the cities myself and I have a WRA my business and I know that there one of our other citizens um actually has his business in the city as NH marketing and his truck sits right on bbel it will definitely affect his business we have to figure out how to manage that I mean signage is a very serious pro issue but well let me um maybe back because I think there's there's a couple things that kind happened all together that let us to today you know one is uh obviously City hasn't updated its sign code in many years there was a a fairly important Supreme Court ruling that happened that really changes commity these abilities to do the enforcement and and uh permitting of signs inside the city and and that's something that that unfortunately a lot of communities have gone through and practically every place I've been since that Supreme Court ruling has gone through this very thing I say one of the cities is still working through all the changes they need to make W and we we started that in in 20 2019 right before Co H um and they're still I think they're like halfway through their their chapter on this um and and here's why when when you start updating these you find out how the world has changed dramatically since since this was last done and and technology has changed businesses have changed um you know a lot of communities seen uh their businesses kind of move move from you know these business that been there for a long time really didn't need signage the businesses that are open up now and and it's 100% about being seen in a car driving by sure and and I think that's you know one of the difficulties I've seen Community struggle with in these sign codes is a lot of people have a a very uh uh Antiquated view of science and not understanding what businesses need today to be successful we had uh when I was in uh Lincoln Park we had a McDonald's on it was a six Lane Road that the average speed was moved from 25 miles hour to 45 miles an hour our sign code was based in that area would allow them a sign that would work on a two-lane road going 25 miles an hour small small sign right round base they come in and said well you know these cars are going 45 miles an hour by the time they see McDonald's they have to slam their brakes on you know they came in with you know all the engineering I mean it was impressive a lot you impressive amount of work they showed if if they could be 12 feet up in the air at this size you know it would reduce potential for ad it was really something you look at and say and and when you start thinking about that impact you know again we don't think McDonald's is a big deal everyone knows where McDonald's are except you know sometimes you forget you know I'll be driving a lot it's like I know it's here somewhere I know it's here some not NE McDonald's but know business and next thing you know there it went and and the immediate reaction is what put the brakes on well if you're going 45 miles an hour putting brakes on is really stupid and and so I use that as kind of an example of if you don't change your sign codes to keep up with go with what's going on in your community and really you you need to be looking like every five years with these codes um you know you're going to create not only hardships for businesses but also you're going to start creating uh you know safety risks for the people that are driving and pedestrians and all those those others possibilities so because of of the the Gilbert decision because we haven't looked at it because there is a change in in the world in terms of the businesses that we have you know these all kind of came together and say really we need to take a look at this and and what you have in front of you is really something that addresses one aspect of what I just said and that's just giving us in compliance with Gilbert now I know there's some other things they put in there as we go through this that you know I have questions about because you know one of the things and I was talking with NY about this is you know those those guys that have the sign they spin it and everything those would be prohibited based upon this and and I you know I I really don't have a an opinion whether they're good bad Ori but as a community we have to make a decision whether that's something we want to see right and and if it's something that you know you can live with and and it achieves the goal of what your community could look like then then something that shouldn't be prohibited you may be controlled but not necessarily prohibited and so all those things I think have to be put through that lens and the whole sign code has to be put through that lens what is it that you want your community to look like um when we started this uh in St Clair Shores this this process I gave uh the council members because they the sign code actually is outside of planning it's in in their ordinances outside that so it was strictly the domain of the council and they had a committee that oversaw this and what what we gave them first off was what some cities actually I think some of them may be in hand hand old Florida a couple of them mostly in Texas where all you see are signs I mean when you look down their main drag all you see are large overwhelming signs and the question is is that what you want your City to come you look like or is it something else and and that again is kind of an exaggeration of what happens but it's something that if you're you're not careful you get close proximity to that and and again the problem with these type of of ordinances is once it happens you can't go back right right you know once you allow the sign it's it's there and until it goes down and out of business you're not going to be able to get rid of it so you really have to give a lot of thought on what is It ultimately you want your City to look like and and I think there there could be a methodology to do this you know you need to spend a little bit more time I mean that's that's why I don't think this is going to be a quick and easy thing to do because you got to ask yourself what what is it we want to look like and and don't take the approach that we want to ban signs take the approach we don't want signs because of this reason right and and it can't be I just don't like it or it doesn't look right um you know I go back to you know elevated signs there there could be a lot of reasons why you don't have a lot of elevated signs or you only have a certain height of an elevated sign use science to make that determination right don't just say we don't want it because again I can probably find a reason why an elevated sign is actually St and and a better look for the community than a sign that's on the ground um so I think you know there's there's a lot to ask and and again we will try to do everything we can to try to give you the information we need as you go through that but but I think I wouldn't approach it necessarily from the standpoint of well we want to eliminate signs and and I think again that's why we go back to like the vehicle sign I've seen it so many different ways it's ultimately going going to be a decision you and Council say this is what we are comfortable with within the community so I'm understand to prohibit the vehicle sign is already on the books right so oh we change that to say unregistered or unlicensed Vehicles it really it's it it's going to be a a nightmare to administer if you you try to say you get a permit for that because these these will pop up rapidly and you'll be chasing those down you're never going to catch every single one um you know it's kind of interesting there was I think it was about five or six years ago you saw a lot of uh National Brands uh going out and actually uh doing agreements with individuals to uh rra their cars right you make money off of it you know that that trend went away now it's really just you know you know I use the Mom and Pop Shop concept but that's not what it is but it's more localized now and and it's businesses that know that that they want they want to be seinging everywhere and they drive everywhere and so that's a great way for them to advertise their business when they're going out to dinner somewhere or going to the store um and so it's going to be it's going to be difficult to regulate that but what I think you can do though is is like one Community I talked about you know they put where you know you can't have it parked in front of your business in in a u and I just don't remember I findin what the language is in in a in a a manner that is designed to attract business to or you know so it doesn't act like it's sign right I mean that's that's what you're trying to do and say you can have that but you know that's not for when you you know were there in your office you use it as you know an unpermitted sign anywhere in on the books that situation describing that protects that use of it think we'd have to modify that and we'd have to clarify the difference between a vehicle sign and a vehicle wrap for instance so I agree 100% vehicle signs are usually atrocious looking if there especially the A-frame things they are I mean they serve a purpose when you're driving like when Pasco County was here telling us what was going on that served a purpose but to see that every day driving through our neighborhood just because a business owner decided he want to do that would be so it actually grabbed attention due to the fact that we don't have in the city yeah people stopped to actually see what it was so it did its job so um and like even that like number 10 the inflatable signs of devices it's those crazy you know yeah the waving guys and stuff like that like and I think this just like like you're saying it's May a problem for staff I thought personally I thought that would be acceptable but only for like a new business I think of Chamber of Commerce for instance right a new business opened the and said what we're trying to attract attention can we get a permit to run that for two weeks but then again that becomes a pering issue code enforcement's got to do with it when I drove by it's been three and a half weeks it's still sitting there yeah if we don't have it it doesn't it's not an issue but well the reality though is like those inflatable signs they happen though FEA flags all that stuff you see them all the time you know the the best best sign codes that I've seen are ones that proper education and uh training has been given to the businesses um because then they know right they know what is permissible what isn't permissible right um and again I think uh as part of this once once the the code is in the adoption process we really need to think about how we're going to you know provide that education to to all the businesses in the city because again you could change all this and make things legal and illegal we're still going to be here where there are a lot of legal signs in in the community and it's going to happen and the best way to prevent it is to get people to come in and talk to us before they start their business so we can we can educate them on what what is permissible well that's that's going to be a staff issue too right so that's the other side of it years ago when Denis was still there Lori knows it's because it was first personally affected her I had a sign on Limestone that was a 4 by8 sign because it was a development we were doing Lori end up buying the property herself it's because of back to her house but I I got a red tag on a sign real estate sign and I said well show me the code where they could they couldn't show me in the code where it was illegal sign so instead I drove around the city and found 32 other instances and brought it city council go this is the same exact thing everybody else what are we doing and they said just run it until you sell your property then take it down I'm like well it wasn't going to stay there anyway it point it wasn't me that called Lori wanted the property cheaper so she got yeah this this this you know again it's it's not just here and it's not going to be just here uh sign codes are are one of the worst things to to implement and enforce wherever you're at because there's always someone going to be pushing the limit there's you know the philosophy better to ask forgiveness than permission and and again the places that are doing it right has spent years you know with discipline with education to get to where they're at and and so again first step is getting the codee that you want um then really the fund begins because it's then about educating and enforcing and and it'll take years what about grandfather SS are we gonna is that an issue about but we'll deal with that later we'll deal with it as it's in already in there there's a provision talks about if it's there now it's fine but once it's kind like anything we talk about once it's it's moved or damage destroyed Beyond 50% it doesn't come back okay cool yeah there's there's uh I mean that that language it's kind of an interesting language they had in there that after it was adopted they never I don't think they really did anything with it they just left the signs there when really the language is that at a certain point in time you had to transition in the sign and they just I don't think ever did that fortunately so number 15 is another interesting one window signs which in agregate cover more than 25% of the total window surface similar thing window Pur it's a 50% coverage and I know that there are many businesses in town that have have it or had had it in the past um I know that one of my clients actually in Newport Richie they made them come cut it off his windows even though it had been there for five years because it was um and he literally had to cut it back and it didn't even advertis his business it was just a an homage to Veterans which was even fun I thought it was even funnier because they did it during around Veterans Day so um they made them cut it all out so that's another one I think we have to clation on what that is and what we're allowed to what we suggest is okay acceptable it may be advantageous to have somebody from a sign industry come in here and have a conversation too about what's the newest trends and I said maybe it's advantageous to get someone from the sign industry to come in here and discuss what the newest trends are sure these changes we make sure that we're up to dat yeah so I would agree I mean some of them it's pretty obvious we don't want science swinging around and flying around else besides the fact live water but I think you know there there are a number of issues with with signage and windows and again you can travel around the city and see buildings where every window is is concealed by some type of signage and and you know the I I think trait or the the thought you have to kind of balance is you know safety versus the ability to do you know advertising your business um again in more traditional downtowns when when you see Windows all covered in Sage you're probably not looking at an active downtown correct um and so one of the things they they would say in downtown Redevelopment is you know you want Windows to be windows that way you can see in and and it creates one a a comfort for the P you know the pedestrians go by they're not worried that there's going to be something lurking around the next corner or the next Doorway to jump out it and also it allows the police when they're doing their patrols to see into the building right now balance on that is that again that mindset I just told you was you know early late 1990s early 20 thousands you know businesses today are totally different and and when you're in Florida especially you have the the sun penetration going in and some of the older buildings that don't necessarily have energy efficient Windows having you know some type of tip to it or or whatever that material is called makes sense um but again you know what is that balance uh that needs to be struck so it's you know Fair equ and and creates the community you want to see down the RO number Commercial science that mean offsite of of the business that the sign is for correct yeah so where where sometimes where you see this happen is uh again in a downtown area where there's a vacant lot maybe two businesses down or two Parcels down and that's where they decide to put their sign because you can't put it any place else and that would be an offr sign so that would be you know not permissible under under the current code or the way this is written you know another way that that's been done also I've seen where uh people will paint a sign on the corner of the building that's you know at at an intersection and it's for a business two or three uh doors down again that would be an off premise time so I see one kind of uh going back to where uh you had Randy had brought about the uh that 7D where it allows 18 inches of a sign uh when you go down to uh 28 it says prohibits any sign in or over a public RightWay so there's kind of conflict right there some some downtowns public rideway goes right to the face of the building still want to know about I didn't get ask I didn't get to talk to him he's been sick I I want to know about2 a lot of really nice communities don't have these big build boards all over the place they only allow nice signs it makes a nicer Community I hear some people that come from nicer areas they say I can't believe how many boy or sons are around here there are a few I'm not on a billboard you can going insult all the I'm not on any buses either so you can um these dilapitated trucks that are just being used as a sign and they don't run or anything I remember about 20 years ago Hooters had a very provocative sign that made national attention that was the goal for marketing they got their marketing attention but it was pretty provocative right here in Port Richie and in Clearwater clew asked him to take it down but I don't I don't know that there's a any kind of stipulation on what can on the sign you can't regulate content there's abity law if it's considered obene which is that is referenced in here um 36 36 um so if it if it meets the qualification to be OB you can regulate it but other than that um you can't regulate it and also this is an assign but in pis County 30 years ago and end up down there they had these girls with fish nut stockings and high heill shoes selling hot dogs and it was causing all kinds of accidents so they outlawed that but it was causing a lot of accidents on us19 the uh when when you go through this based upon Gilbert the Gilbert decision what you want to ask yourself is three things that you can you can legislate time place and manner that's it and so if it doesn't fall in one of those categories can't can't put a put it in the cup which is always the because you know you want to get into the content right that's a lot of places we'll try by you know we want you want the city to look a certain way so we don't want neon signs but unless there's a a legitimate reason that you can put to from a you know again I can't think of any as an example for neon SCI you know that really becomes a matter of the content that you know you can get into the lighting I guess to a certain degree but the problem with the lighting is you have a lot of lit signs around here to begin with which is another thing you need to be thinking about as well is this is you know our sign code related to uh those LEDs because again this is 200 28 whatever it was this was last updated so probably really didn't take in a lot of good as relates to LED lights just one I think they're not committed in the Waterfront overl District I'm not not I think only certain type allow there LED sides yeah number 34 that'sit these guys are out there in front of the business SP the sign that's what that would do I like that go the 80s to Tire the he has like a his own Facebook page people follow him on Facebook it's like a big deal I'm a friend are you he's F he's been up for years and I'll say the the some of the stuff in red um attorney ashenfelder added because of how many different communities he's done this with these are kind of the main things they asked for that doesn't mean you have to keep them right they probably don't have that gemen in their community so they don't understand the importance honestly never pulled into any business that he's advertised I just don't K I would I would throw out there maybe in terms of a little bit of process on this I think it would be good to engage the public and businesses into this as well I just gonna ask you have we pulled anyone for regarding this yeah I mean I think and and I don't have a good answer best way to do that um I think at at a very minimum to try to get businesses interested in it you know we do you know some type of alerts to them or send something out to try to let them know that you're as long as I want make sure you're okay with this um because signs are one of those things where you can get people very atate very quickly uh but you know to get them to come in and maybe have some type of public engagement with that so they come in talk about you know what they think Cod needs and changes or improvements that can be done perhaps the soon to be newest member could help facilitate that connection and talk to the people that he has connections with it would be advantageous to have a an open form kind of discussion Workshop yeah because there's a lot of clarity that needs to go into a lot of these I mean some of it's very basic obviously right but then again you have 18 pole sides yeah that's a what's difference between a poll sign and a monument sign you I mean obviously a monument sign has two sides to it I mean there's multiple I mean there yeah man of the center regarding the um I'm going to ask a directed question to you regarding Chamber of Commerce is it a is it common when you a company opens a new business in a city or any any City for a matter that matter is does a chamber get directly involved with them and helping them decide and design and Implement signage we uh we offer them variety of services I mean everything from there's no there's no everything from incorporation how what kind of corporate system have can catch if you catch him now right yeah should okay you guys hear me all right yeah so yes if they ask us but we've got so many vagaries on what we're doing here a good example U that I bring up I personally end up having is I use the same material material that the sign company or the printing company NeXT store to the City Hall did for my sign when we started the Chamber of Commerce mine was white it has preparated holes in it the coverage was not over 25% for the sign part but the material that's used to help act as a sunscreen well today first day we put the sign up I got hit with $1,000 fine and was told I had to destroy my sign I asked why because I went out and took pictures of 56 signs right in front of all of here and say uh please explain to me why all of a sudden my brand new sign had to be destroyed that I just paid $300 for yet the one right next door is allow and the response I heard from was well the old city manager told me not to do anything with those so we had a lot of effect selective enforcement going on when it comes to the signs signs are such an integral part of every business you talk about vehicle signs and now we don't want the guy to park in front of his company what the sign will show up um is actually just on 19th are we going to be talking about up and down every other Road from Washington to Grand and if where we going to park some of these vehicles it's just you've got vehicle signs listed here we have inflatable signs well right now if you were to go for tax season Liberty Taxes has an inflatable Liberty that they use to try and attack detention right over here our new Thai restaurant has a chef dra like this to find it but that signs not on the public right away it's way back in front of their building so are we going to be a little more clarifying as to where the placement of that inflatable sign is if it's going to be up against your building is it okay if it's out on the street it's not or are we going to eliminate those completely the window sign with 25% what is that coverage is that the information on the sign cannot be over 25% or the whole position of the sign cannot be over 25% and if that's the case boy we're going to have to go out and do a whole lot of work out here well your holiday signs is people go the things on the on their Windows right like the restaurant pay a whole Christmas Seasons or season on the whole thing you got bull signs in here but what is a bull sign is that what you're going to have if you're a barber and you got a barber pole out front or is that any sign that is held up with a pole it's not definitive portable we have spent a lot of money and a lot of energy trying to generate activities here we now have the Community Markets once a month we started we had 24 we were up to 50 we expect to have 100 people over here at our Waterfront Park but according to this I cannot put a portable sign out front to tell people we have an activity back on our part because our park is not visible from us19 so trying to get people in there based on this we cannot do that uh a business has to generate traffic it has to generate a branding and identity and the more restrictive we are the more difficult it's going to be for these businesses to survive so we just ask that you take into consideration the needs of the business people if it's under TR I understand but we now have all kinds of digital signs I mean we've got Billboards that change their face about every 20 seconds and they've got a new sign coming up there we've got new Signs Now that constantly have messages on an LED basis that run across the windows none of that is addressed in any of our signage here um one of the reasons I was really concerned about talking about this is as a businessman as a business person as a real estate broker uh these are all important factors to whether or not we're going to have any kind of traffic and if we don't have successful businesses we're going to have vacant stores and buildings like we have one here you can't put a sign on a roof I can't tell you in how many cities we have roof signs where it says what it is US 19 um uh tractor whatever and it's easier for visibility but also for anybody in the helicopter that has to look at it or anybody that's looking at it from up here to try and find out where it is can we be more specific about how much coverage that signage is or or what form that sign takes in there and how does it hurt anybody certainly doesn't hurt your visibility if somebody is willing to spend all the money that's put their sign up on their roof I don't see where that's really an impediment to the general public what does it have to do with the wind maybe it's a depends on sign of you're just talking about writing something on the sh shingles of the roof it's different than having like a big glass sign up on the top of the building that could be um you know detrimental during a hurricane to to other businesses or other people well as a contractor based on the angle of the roof the visibility of any kind of roof sign is going to be there obviously uh it's matter what your pitch is and how visible it's going to be and how identifiable it is but as Matt said it's these small little Monument signs that are up there we've at the busiest Highway in the State of Florida how are you going to see what you're looking for if we're going to make it difficult for anybody in a vehicle going through four lanes six Lanes of traffic to try and identify where they're trying to lead to it's uh it's very restrictive I always think of roof signs I always think of like Fenway Park see all all the people on the private residences have paid Coca-Cola paid to put a sign on their on their roof that kind of thing like that I understand that yeah they just pointed out Hooters has a sign if you look at their roof all across the front it says Hooters right that's so anybody on the water can look at it and if we look at what this says there and violation two they need to go remove that sign and that's an integral part to their business would that impact their business it might especially with the waterbor clients that they're going to get who come up on their boat and how does it harm the general public that Hooters has a sign up there I've personally used it in aerial photography showing waterburn houses relation to where the house it's funny oh there it is and they can see it on on the picture on the a aerial shop so I don't know I I think my suggestion is we have to do some kind of Workshop invite some businesses in some people have some as a forum and let them know this is not we're not trying to be accused wrong yours is right we don't want to do that at all invite them and ask them their need structures what they're utilizing currently to get through with their business and what they'd like to see changed if possible is there verbiage in here that's not that's so so uh Antiquated it doesn't make any sense to them or is it so ambiguous that they just do whatever the hell they want I mean I think that's kind of where we're at right so I think this is a good start like you said this was definitely not gonna be a one yeah that coming in I think lot there's anotherone as bad as seaw walls there's another component to this that as he was speaking um I realized we probably need to get you so the the definitions you there are definitions of these things that are in this code right so like a PO sign what's the definition of a pole sign according to our definitions the pole sign means a sign independent support from any building that is mounted on free couldn't read that word gra glasses on freestanding poles or other supports so that the bottom edge of the sign face is 8T or more above grade which is 30 signs in our in our in our community yeah once again Hooters you know I mean catches I mean there's multiple of them like that so so I think one of the things we need to do probably is go through the definitions and pull out all the sign definitions that affect the sign code and get those for you as well so you're not kind to scrolling through those we you have them all because again you can you can say something is not permissible but if you can't Define what it is somewhere it it's it's relevant and it would be even advantageous for the board themselves this but to go through and find the ones that are like that if we know of the one that's in the city currently for instance the poll sign bring a picture so we can see it talk about it so and then Define what's the reasoning why do we want do we to strike this because of that fact um obviously we're not going to make Hooters change their sign that is definition of a PO sign I would think but based off what you're saying so um but that's a grandfather didn't sign exactly right so that's the same thing but yeah there's a lot of lot of there's a lot here all right so I wanted to make one comment though understand it's important business I had a huge battle with pelis County about my business sign for many years um but we also need to think about the future of how our community is going to look you know we want to create Prett and desirable community and all these Billboards up there I know they're going to be baned forther than in but maybe we should consider not having allowing anymore because they they really don't make a community look good and most of those advertising on the big Billboards are not for people that are local businesses here just something to I want to hear the business side of it and then also consider how how it's going to make our community look better Agreed 100% I mean I just noticed I just saw on the news yesterday um Tampa General the en you know the popul Jan of the Tri County Area is considered the number one place to start a new business in the country currently so there's that much new businesses growth get happening here and we want to be part of that things like the new project where the waterf overlay district is there G be multiple businesses going in there there's a lot of things like that but I think my personal take list and come back to it and the next step would be to do a forum and a workshop with with the public obviously in January we can't do it before the holidays obviously or whatever we have time we ask the Chamber of Commerce to notify their members ask we'd be more than happy we represent right now uh about 70 businesses locally here at what we're doing and we've got a meeting to try and recruit some more starting the first of year providing them with a lot of of the elements that we hope small businesses can survive and signage is so important I mean we've got some major projects coming up that this needs to be defined really good uh if the project over here where gildogs is goes in and we're talking about a nice shopping area and we're really going to have to make sure sure that we have it defined so they understand what they can do and what they can do especially right there on US 19 uh I notice like when we go through the river like in Tate's Place uh is Marino and he uses a floating uh TI Tiki Hut out there and with an ad on it I don't see anything in here at all uh about floating signs you know wasn't anything we ever covered so nobody can talk about it there was something in there about signs up River yeah I believe there is there's one in here says you can't put it on sea walls and except for those notifications right but um is that considered a vehicle Sonic is is a tiki hut considered a vehicle I mean our definition are not real clear just like when I had to remove my sign or pay a f and I look at everybody else's and it's the same one that means that the building official is going to interpret the what he wants and enforce it the way he wants and there was no Clarity and nobody could tell me okay uh well that's different the preperation as long as the coverage of solid coverage is not over 25% we thought we were okay and if we go to the eyeglass place right over across the street their entire windows are covered with signs of couples standing there has nothing to do with signage is that Decor or is that signage is that just a window covering or because it doesn't have a name on it it just has people is that not a sign uh you know I think it's confusing for businesses Dave Miller 5439 blueo Drive uh I like your idea about pulling the businesses in here certainly that gets um what they're got a taste for what they foresee going on one mechanism to do that I believe we got btrs and potential emails for all these businesses and if we don't we should have uh that would be a quick and easy way to bring attention to that possibly uh you know rallying some kind of for for workshop and uh make some Community awareness especially those business that actually have licenses in the community thanks thank you and I'll make a formal request for Nick to be here from in marketing the answer sign questions do so I I'll ask Nick who has the who has the building next to Walgreens he has any marketing I'll make sure that he's here that day to answer questions about signs and I think I mean because I question with wraps too the thing is like he was saying I know people that wrapped their I had my last boat was wrapped my business snap Realty was right on the side of my boat I didn't wrap my new boat because I don't want people bother me when my boat but it's I mean it's it's there's a lot of clarification needs to happen okay all right so do we need a motion to the table are we good so sest so suggestion is my suggestion about Randy and Laur thoughts is we table for the time being have a open forw Workshop invite some businesses here I will personally go out and invite some business we ask the chamber if they'll show up mat say on a timing perspective so I know in January uh I believe there is a rezoning this comeing before you so that'll be at 5:30 do you do you want to do that form for your February meeting or do you want it to be a special you want do I'm okay with doing in January just as one of our day times like at one o' you could the the your meeting in on January 16th is at 6 because it is a resoning we could meet in the afternoon for the workshop now I don't know about businesses you think that would would be better workshop at night so they can come at night I don't know I don't know Come Day business yeah that might be hard for them so might do another evening meeting for the workshop I'm okay with the one so you well let me let me work from the perspective you're willing to do a special meeting in the evening and uh I'll sit down with Ashley and start looking out I would say after the first couple weeks of January people go home from the holidays on when's there there reason on January 16th 16 you said six 16 yeah that's fine just F you guys go through your schedule and figure out what works best for yall and then have Ashley kick it out to us and if it has to wait till February th but okay I have no I would rather get to the bottom of it quickly going into 2025 yeah I would I would say that it probably does make a lot of sense to advertise anything out to the businesses until after the first of the year sure so um they realistically probably February February yeah yeah that's fine okay in that case I need a is there anything else any old business discuss I will entertain a motion to adjourn a second all in favor I right thanks guys