##VIDEO ID:9CHPsPZRifY## I feel like I'm very like but maybe that's just the way the chair is [Music] I have yeah all right thank you for coming and welcome to the historic preservation Commission meeting January 9th 2025 pursuant to section 13 of the open public meetings act adequate notice of the time and place of this meeting was given by posting prominently on the official bulletin board in the municipal complex 400 Witherspoon Street a schedule of the regular meetings of the Princeton historic preservation commission for the year 20125 which posting is to be maintained throughout the year and by transmitting a copy of such schedule to the Princeton packet town topics traton times and Comcast cable of New Jersey and by filing a copy thereof with the clerk of Prince New Jersey Elizabeth could you please take the role I have my role list today Miss saterfield just so you know that she's recused herself um Mr shatkin here Miss Howard here Mr endersby I'm here too Miss fredman here Mr Shore present chairperson capazo here thanks everyone for coming today um We are continuing the application of heler Properties LLC the preliminary final major site plan with variances application for historic preservation plan review and we can go into all the addresses but it's a continuation from yesterday there's a YouTube video if you want to see it it's still online and as a courtesy we're going to do a quick summary of what we all reviewed yesterday so I'm going to turn it over to Mr heler and he's going to run through his presentation once again just to refresh um it for everyone thank you uh good evening um I'm happy to do this again and it'll be a short version for those who couldn't be here last night um so I'll I'll just start going going whoops it's not running okay there we go um this shows the four um sets of properties that are involved um in this project and um it just shows you where they are on withi Street there are other properties that we own but they're not part of this presentation uh and these four properties we assembled over the uh over the last 10 years uh through a whole bunch of circumstances um and um this is the next one here yeah okay and uh so anyway that's it and what you see here on the lower um picture is a three uh 3ot uh collage we took a camera and every 3 feet we uh took a picture of the street the way it looks today and then we uh in the upper um line You'll see the the the pieces of property as we drafted them as the way they look today this is our basic goals which is to provide housing at a reasonable cost for the missing middle preserve the character and culture of the neighborhood preserve the diversity in the population provide housing that is in the scale of the neighborhood um and that's a very important thing in terms of the historic importance of the neighborhood provide a sustainable and safe environment provide housing for all ages so that we can have people in their 20s and people in their 70s there increase the sense of community and basically celebrate the history of the black community within the context of the neighborhood uh that was what we set out to do last night this is um this is an interesting drawing it was done in 1874 and they didn't have drones and they didn't have helicopters and what you see here is um you can see the um Nassau Hall and Witherspoon Street I wish this oh there it is there's Nassau Hall and here's withman Street it doesn't quite align with n H the way it in fact does but um you have to give them a lot of credit and what's interesting is back then 1874 this was known as John Street just as it is today known as John Street and what's interesting about this one drawing is that you can see here this is the neighborhood that we're talking about and the rest of it is pretty much Countryside and here's the campus and so this was has always been part of of the campus and part of the center of Princeton there is Nassau Street so um and I think I already mentioned John Street this just shows you the historic um densification if you will of the neighborhood and you can see that except for the um the school that was um that was built here um there's there's very little that was really of a major consequence and here are our properties along here these are the four properties that we're talking about um but you can see that the density over the 105 years or 125 years sorry um it was here here's here's our properties then and you can see that they basically have stayed the same this one we got a little bit denser here um but generally they've been pretty much consistent in terms of their current density um this is just uh some pictures of um of buildings that were on with the spoon Street that's a house and I want to point out one thing that we noticed and and tend to follow through on the shutters were real shutters uh on hinges and um not just decorative things screwed to the wall and um which is also a consistent thing is they used solid Shutters on the first floor and wover Shutters on the upper four and this is Mary Mars's Mary Moss Park uh which is still there today and it was rebuilt uh about 3 years ago and uh our firm helped do that and there's Mary Moss herself and and this was a swimming pool you can see uh with the kids all along it today that's a bunch of sprays in a in a concrete thing uh concrete platform and it's a much safer environment actually next slide um these are other houses along with the SPO Street and this is an interesting one uh you'll see later on in the presentation that there was an italianate uh tendency in the neighborhood to build buildings that were reminiscent of Italy and this is one of and you can see it here this is the original building this became the second building and then um as time went on um that building changed from being italianate to being more like Egyptian and believe it or not I'll take you back for a minute this is uh the original Toto uh building which was expanded out and it actually absorbed uh that porch um the way around is it the one you show before actually says the back one yes one the left to and that is still there the rest so and what you this one here that's good I I've been trying to figure out where that was so that that's good and then this is a a funeral home that was actually on NASA street but it's a it's just shows you the type of buildings and the quality of them at the time and that's part of what we want to bring back in in the buildings that we're going to be doing um 184 withman Street was formerly the Witherspoon school for color children and um some somebody told me last night that that was the wrong thing it was supposed to be um but I think at this point it was the Witherspoon school for col children and uh that's what it looks like today stucko over and this is what it looked like originally um and this is the entire enrollment and Charlie satterfield's grandmother is somewhere in uh in amongst the students here um so and we believe that this uh prep school that was at the corner of Ridge View um no Riverview Riverside Drive and Nassau Street um it was a prep school for boys and it looked very similar in style uh to the um what eventually became the um uh the school and we're planning to actually name this the saterfield um just as we named uh when we did the um uh the school on Quarry Street we named it um the waxwood because it was Dr waxwood Who was the last principal of that school before integration came now Oops I did something wrong here sorry what am I doing wrong here oh there we go um the university gave us a $5,000 Grant and a a graduate student to study the styles that had been developed within this neighborhood at at its time when it was really thriving and it was very much of an Italian uh styling that was going on H well I'll do it this way then there's something wrong yeah just be careful not to touch oh okay am I okay now all right so anyway this is um um the results of of that graduate students work she worked in this in the office all alone because it was during the first year of covid and uh she did all this work by herself and this is uh the type of thing that she uh got it is the the nature of the plans which were classic and then the Italian coloring and then the late Victorian coloring and she also discovered these books by Andrew Jackson Downing uh and he was basically telling people how to design uh different houses in different styles from country houses uh to Victorian and then he also uh was giving them color schemes and details on uh on uh cornices and that type of thing it was very interesting now I'm going to take you through what is there today um these are all code issues that are in violation and frankly they cannot be fixed without major renovation of the existing buildings you'll see there's a lot of low ceilings uh the code today is a ceiling has to be at least 7 fo6 in high and uh we have a lot of violations of ceilings stairways have to be at least 36 ft wide or 36 in wide and there are a lot of them that are only 30 or even 24 in wide so this all of this is a collection of everything that's wrong and could not be fixed without major renovation now I'm taking you down into the basement of these buildings you notice they have dirt floors um and they're very low and they're literally dangerous and falling apart and a lot of repair has been done to them but look at the repair the repair is All Temporary it's it's either Jacks like this here or it's uh things that have been thrown up and look at the spacing how tight it is and that just shows how weakened these uh four joists are of above and this is a corner of um 148 Witherspoon Street and it's one of the buildings that was stucko over as most of them were on the street and right here you see a corner board for the siding that we found is underneath that stucco and that's classic there's just so much uh that's been stuccoed if you will oh I'll stay I'll stay away from that I'm sorry okay um now we had a contractor go through and uh talk about things and um he found a lot wrong and uh his recommendation was we should tear everything down and build it new from scratch that's called reconstruction and for those of you who don't know um the uh Williamsburg Village uh was actually a reconstruction done in uh 1937 and uhu and so it's 88 years old today rather than the 3 or 400 years uh old that it should be and that's because it was all torn down and went apart and they came back and reconstructed it um next slide is um preservation standards and guidelines and this is important because this comes this is out of the Princeton master plan but it's almost word for word what the um national uh Park service has done and what we're doing and the reason it's highlighted is we're going to be working in the mode of the restoration um here reconstruction is is is a depiction as it says by means of new construction the form features and detailing of a non Rising site but what we're doing is we are in fact restoring things as opposed to preserving them they're too far gone for that or rehabilitating them they're too far gone for that so we are literally uh picking them up and restoring them uh from scratch we're also doing and this is an important thing we are detailing the windows we've measured every single window on the site and we're doing it in such a way that we can actually imitate these windows and have them be in thermop Pan um as opposed to what we have today which is buildings or Windows which are uh number one single pain number two uh they often have uh screens or storm windows on um on the front of them they have air conditioners hanging out uh of them um and they're just and not wellmaintained at all and we're going back and going getting the original Windows uh when we did the waxwood we actually went to New Hampshire and had a special window dis uh company make those windows exactly the way the historic um pictures of um of the waxwood um I showed them when it was a school and we're doing the same with with the doors these are drawings that we've done of the doors and that's how we're going to get them also replicated now here I'll give you our design proposals what you see above here is the existing condition very similar to that first photo that I showed you and I'll I'll just point out your attention to uh up here above the church there are three buildings in here and then you come down and there's um a a large set of buildings right in here um this building here is actually um um it is has been identified as non-contributing which means it can be torn down and we're tearing it down and replacing it with something that is much more authentic related to the original building that was there um if you go to that that building today and look at it very carefully you can see the ghost of these windows is in the stucco um and so we're we're able to actually imitate exactly the way this building looks in our reconstruction of it and then you come down here and here's the stucco building and there's what we're doing um with the school the original school for colored uh children um on on with the Smith Street so and what you can see also if you look carefully is there's a mass here done in gray shingles and there's a mass here done in gray shingles and we're doing these are the additions on the back of the existing buildings and the same is true here and the same is true here oh this is 204 206 and this is what they will look like uh this building is a uh is currently a bordo um the council has asked us to work out a plan whereby we keep all of the retail spaces as retail spaces this is now a bordo and what we're going to do is uh turn it into a soccer store which is down the street in in our complex and we're going to move the Boro down there because she needs more room and she'll be closer to her market and he wants more foot traffic um at this which is more prevalent at this end of the of Withers Spin Street um this is a site plan uh of it and just to show you what we're doing um and I I didn't bring a pad to sketch it but uh what we're doing is basically taking the existing houses and we're taking the first four and turning it into a um a studio apartment and its access is from the porch on the other hand it has a back door that has access to a carer and that carer has an elevator fire escapes modern stairways uh garbage disposal and a male pickup and so if I believe on the first floor here I'm in a a duplex U that's been modified into a studio and I can have access to all of the amenities of that building on the other hand we we build this carer and that carer serves the second floor units so the the upper part of of the duplex has become its own studio with its own amenity package and this is right here is where there's a Carter um that joins all of these with the elevator the stairway uh the garbage disposal and um and also the the mail drop now um the other thing I want to point out is these are flat roofs which keeps the buildings basically low and they have we're going to have a maximum of solar collectors on the roof we probably have a lot more than is shown here but we're also putting putting in sod roofs which have the advantage of um taking half of any rainfall and and basically using it to water the the roof but what's important is the roof retains half of the rain water and evaporates it out later so this becomes part of the um uh the storm management part and here you can see this is the first four plan how these these houses are are connected uh back into that Corridor and and right now uh there's a whole bunch of old garages here um one story covered with tar paper we're removing all of those and and giving this a lot more uh breathing room and parking and incidentally the code allows us now the new zoning code of allows us to have the first five parking spaces without any um um the first five Apartments without any parking and then it's only one car per unit which makes a lot of sense now the second uh set of blocks is along uh is that over on the left is the Presbyterian church and this is a set of duplexes here and um it at this point which we're doing the same kind of subdivision internally the same here uh we have added a window here uh we could never figure out why it was a blank window but putting a window in here matching all the others uh makes sense in terms of completing the elevation that building look at the blue building over here I'm going to take you there now that's what it looked like with an elegant stairway going up and and what we've done is turned it into a duplex here and then on at the bottom floor there's a terrible apartment which we're creating a new sunken entry Plaza here into that unit and off the bedroom we're creating another small suen area um at at this point and then we're putting uh planting soong here and where the the little restaurant uh is now we were proposing a much larger restaurant which would be here and another store uh or commercial property here what's important about this building is this is the one we're building new from scratch and this is exactly what the original building looked like in terms of its fenestration but this building is now at grade there's a terrible stairway there that has different hype risers and is actually sitting in in the right of way and is not handicap accessible which all these buildings are supposed to be and so we're taking it and dropping this building down to street level so you can walk in um to tell you the truth we've had two people fall off the stairs here and into the street and it's cost us $150,000 in just settlement with them uh for from that fall um over on Quarry Street there's there's one house there um which um we're going to restore uh and and make it look like this and it has a parking area for two cars and then you notice this here that's uh something that Shirley uh saterfield has been advocating and it's a basically the first uh community garden to be going in and uh it's here and what you're also looking at is that's the big building with 20 new units in it and then there's another five or six units in in the rest of it so there's a total I think of about 20 25 building uh 25 units in there um now this is um this is a site plan of that and you can see you go in here and there's the parking and there's the little house on Quarry Street and there's the U community garden and then here we have the usual array of um of um of solar collectors and sod roof and then here we have a rooftop um Gathering Spot for the occupants of that building so they can have a party or a barbecue there and this shows um the four plan and the way this duplex operates and um and basically everything I've already told you I'm trying to move along here now this shows uh the buildings that we are tearing down or removing are all dotted and what we're adding is shown in Gray and this is the um um the school uh which is being converted um in into Apartments it's been converted into Apartments and we're extending that with more apartments and the reaction of people last night um H did I do something wrong okay anyway I want to point out one other thing which is oh I think I was okay a looks like a flood now is it my CU is do in there or what oh you get a repeat of the whole thing to him I'm sorry about that okay now I want to go back one here and explain something you see this little single family house here that's what it looked like originally and Our intention is to put the porch back into its original condition right now it's a glass in porch and um and that's what we plan to do and and completely restore it and it's an affordable unit for a family you see the parking uh here uh what we based on our hearing last night uh what we're doing is we're taking a bike stand that was there and we're putting a bike stand here uh closer to the sidewalk and and equal distant frankly to the entrance to this building which is the back underneath the a parking area and that lets these cars get up and out of sight which is an important factor uh because it this is a family occupied building uh we are stacking uh the two cars in there as opposed to it being a garage and here you see what it looks like today and what it's going to look like in the end and you you notice how we've used a very quiet gray siding on here and the next slide is showing you the side elevation and there was a reaction last night to this looking quote like an office building and so we're replacing all these walls with landscaping and we are breaking the scale of this down into into the scale of the housing on the streets and so we'll be back when we get to the planning board with a redesigned version of this we're going to have windows that are scaled like this and we're also going to break this down so that each one of these are more the scale of a house and maybe we'll have a secondary material maybe this actual siding here as as part of the breakdown of this into in this is going to look at the end of the day like three new houses um as opposed to um the big building that it looks like today and the windows are going to be scaled more like these windows so we're working on that right now based on the input that we got last night so come to the planning board and you'll see it and this is the original uh building the usual array of uh sod roof and U and um the uh um excuse me the uh uh um the S roof and the the solar panels um and this is what the building looks like on the first floor plan and what we've done here is it we've torn this part down and are replacing it with two stairways and an elevator so that the people who come into the entrance here can take an elevator and get into this uh new building here but they can also get off and get into this the original building there and the stairways Also Serve um each of those buildings next slide and here you see the addition that we're doing and this is the original building I have to tell you these build these rooms in here since it was an old school it has 12T ceilings and those 12T ceilings enable us to put in a new br br brand new bathroom and then a sleeping Loft on top of that bathroom and and yet it's still a 12T high ceiling so the living part where the kitchen is and everything else is uh feels very good because even though it's very tiny it's actually very tall and uh you don't feel that at all that 12T ceiling gives this great Advantage the 12T ceiling incidentally comes from it being originally a schoolhouse house and they didn't have air conditioning and so they had to um make the ceilings High just to get rid of the hot air um the other thing that we're doing here on all of the buildings is we're air conditioning them completely and we are putting all new Plumbing in and all new kitchens in and so even though we're densifying it we're uh enhancing it and we're also putting sprinklers into all the buildings so that there will be a sufficient fire protection this is the last project um this is 204 and 206 um with the SPO Street and there was right here on Lidle there was a a a 4ft Edition that went out and was built into the right of way so the sidewalk had to go around it totally illegal uh We've removed that and we're restoring this building and then behind it we're building another um addition done in a very quiet brick and a siding this color toning here is to go with the original uh color toning of the house and we're doing the same thing that I just described on the previous lot of we're breaking this down and so it's going to look like three houses and it's going to have all Landscaping along here so that you won't be looking into the garage um but what we have down here is is the appropriate number of parking spaces and an entrance that takes you in and here you see the the carers serving this building and um and the fact of the matter look at this Ridge and look at this here if you go over across the street and look up you will hard you will have a hard time even seeing the height of this building and yet we're dropping the height of all these buildings by about 8 18 in and this is uh showing that unit um we don't have a sod roof on this one but we have a lot of lawn that we're keeping and um and you you you come in here and there's a stairway uh that serves uh it's a double stairway that serves um the upper floors of the new edition and then this is and it also serves the back of this building uh which as I said before has its entrance on the porch um and this is shows you what's new and what's old and there's no demolition or there the only demolition here is you see how the sidewalk came and went around that funny little addition um which actually had a bathroom and a kitchen in it which is means it was probably installed when we started to have indoor bathrooms and that completes presentation in a hurry and it wasn't probably fast enough oh thank you so much so um we were uh discussing uh deliberating um our reaction to the proposal and we had gotten um comments from the board and from the public but I want to give an opportunity if there are people in the audience who didn't get a chance yesterday to speak if anyone here today would like to speak at public comment um you're welcome to now oh come on and we'll swear you in yes uh good evening I'm Tony vaselli sorry can you just raise your right hand we have to swear you in do you swear that the testimony you're about to give this evening is the whole truth to the best of your knowledge I do thank you I just like to make make a favorable comment uh I'm also a owner of some rental units and have to endure numerous inspections and revisions usually for pretty mundane things so I just find it unbelievable that these units he's talking about now are are still rentable or occupied they really should be knocked down the amount of effort that he's putting into improving the property is is is uh fascinating and I totally support it and to me trying to save them is going to be incredibly expensive uh every property that he's redesigned is 1,000 times nicer than what we have Mr feli could you spell your last name please V is in Victor a s s e l l i thank you thank you y uh do you swear that the testimony you're about to give this evening is the whole truth to the best of your knowledge yes I do Wilma Solomon I live at uh 41 TR place um this is a procedural question that I'm just ignorant about um I did review a report that Elizabeth Kim put together I'm really not knowledgeable about this whole world at all but I want to acknowledge that I mean they seemed like tremendous amount of work that just went into that proposal and uh into your uh I guess uh review of it and and um you had a number of recommendations and I'm just curious were those are those recommendations now going to be part of revising this um project um or what and oh okay and the other thing and related to that so whatever you decide now so you send that on to the planning board saying basically we approve this in part but these are recommendations for changes is that how you is that what you do yeah so we we uh come up with a memo um that goes to the planning board with our recommendations and um and then there's more deliberation at the planning board there's more public comment there's also more emphasis on traffic on storm water right on garbage collection on a lot of other logistical things but so we're primarily just looking at the impact on the sto historic fabric right I understand that I just wondered whether your recommendations are part will be part of that yes so we're yes we're because they're beyond what the public spoke about yesterday yeah so we we yeah we have and we did discuss some of that yesterday but we'll continue to today all right um the other thing is um I know you're going to tell me this has nothing to do with historical preservation commission I understand that um but um I I I'm I'm hoping that um the consideration of the people who live there and people who will move in there um is um it's cognizant of the need to retain the character as a workingclass neighborhood okay and that people who are there now um which I'm not 100% sure of exactly what's going to happen with them but um I have been assured that they will be uh taken care of in Terms of where they will go when they have to leave these properties um and whether or not they get an opportunity to then have a preference in returning I'm still not sure about that again the planning board really is going to be the forum for the for that whole discussion is right I know I just as a member I just thought public comment is public comment but thank you I really appreciate it I know you've been working on this for a very very long time really acknowledge all the work and effort um the Goodwill that I is behind it um my dear friend sister Shirley I know has been involved and looking forward to seeing the the result and that it and that it truly does contribute to our community and allow people to remain here and also to move in and be an active part of the town and there are people there are people here who live there now I believe yeah and I guess Mr Hillary wants to address your comment Wilma could you just spell your last name for me s o l o m o n just like okay want to make sure thank you like the king I did Ice my three minutes probably but thank you for me sure no problem um Bob did you want to say anything no I just wanted to say that we have met with each one of the current tenants and arranged of a plan for them to go forward oh excellent all right well that's good to know you repeat what he said uh that he has met with each of the tenants and arranged for a plan to go forward okay great thank you and we're providing funds to enable that and they are providing funds to enable that good to know all right are there other anyone else public comment come on up hi hi uh do you swear that the testimony you're about to give this evening is the whole truth to the best of your knowledge I do thank you um thank you for uh allowing me to speak again today um I was hoping that you would have read the letter uh I submitted prior to the meeting last night but I understand that was not the case um so I'm a little confused um you I understand the commission may determine that my comments are not pertinent or part of your purview but unless I make the comments how would you know or um so I've been told first to read the letter or attempt to read the letter but that I may not be allowed to so I'm not sure um the comments do address aspects of affordable housing I could skip over those comments if you don't think this is pertinent but again I I do I'm trying to address uh the impact of this plan on the current residents of these homes as well as the neighborhood in general and I think that given the Mandate of this commission to protect the character culture and history of the neighborhood that you should not ignore the impact that this is having on the people who make the character the history and the culture of this neighborhood and they're right here and they will tell you that they don't know what's going to happen they haven't been told that they haven't nothing has been explained would you care to hear them can they speak they speak Spanish only and I'm been interpreting for them and I will be willing to do so um if you want a couple minutes also I really encourage you to um contact the planning board um I I intend to do so yeah um because again um what we're looking at is primarily the architectural impact but if if you want the kids to come on up and say a couple things that's fine can you raise your right hand do you swear that the testimony you're about to give this evening is the whole truth to the best of your knowled yes could you provide his name and spell it uh delc s d e l space c i d Del okay um my concern is uh what's going to happen with the children in school how much time are we going to have once this is approved um I think that is up to the uh applicant so I mean maybe maybe there could be another meeting between the applicant and the neighborhood just to make sure people understand and maybe that can happen soon his name I'll make sure that he's contacted because yes we spoke about how we're going to be relocated and how they're going to help help us but we never spoke about the children children are all part of uh how can this how will this affect them I I think that's a that's a subject matter for a meeting between the the residents and also to contact the school district there may be a for when you have to be temporarily removed leaving your children in the school so I would recommend contacting the school as well well the thing is we've heard so many things from different people we don't know who to believe well this is the applicant so he's charge he's so you can believe what he says okay okay okay all right gracias do you swear that the testimony you're about to give this evening is the whole truth to the best of your knowledge see yes could you provide your name and spell it please a Andre Andrea [Music] Andrea I'm a little confused [Music] because we've heard uh different comments that were that we're going to be helped they're going to find us alternate housing and others that say that they're not going to do anything [Music] as a family with my uh partner and my son uh we are under stress not knowing whe whether it's going to be uh when this is going to happen uh and they they telling us different things e but if they're going to be uh renovating these homes uh why don't they um speak with uh people who are building homes around Princeton and uh find us a place to go everybody that uh together okay if if you could say um I think there will be another meeting between Mr Mr hillier's group and the people who live there to make sure people understand the plan right now we don't know when this will happen because we have not approved it and we are still after this meeting it's not approved it has to go to another place for another decision so after it is approved then we'll know a lot more yes but there's a lot of families living in this homes now I think that yesterday was said that it was mostly single man but there's a lot of families with children who will one day be contributing citizens right so we I know nothing will happen in January and probably not in February I don't know and so there would be a meeting at that time to discuss but right now we we don't we don't know exactly and maybe you can give an idea later this yeah we this this meeting is just about historic architecture in the historic district more specifics about the project such as a timeline Etc that is for the planning board and for after if the project is even approved um I think Bob if we get their phone number and name that you will contact them directly would be would that be okay because we we we have reput talked to every tenant at this point and so um if I can get their names I'll contact them thank foring because according to the chairwoman this is one of the few uh bodies in Princeton that meets in person so this might be really the only place that people felt they could could come and find information El did you want to say something com I think all of us in Princeton are very aware and if not should be aware that this whole situation was played out a 100 years ago with the development of Palmer Square and that the grievance of grievances of many of the people who actually live in this area the W Jackson area were affected by that or their families were affected by it and with that in mind I'm sure we definitely don't want to see that that hurt that personal hurt um replayed again and so I think everybody here is with you in wanting to make sure that those concerns are met as soon as possible so we would like the contact information okay thank you okay thank you uh so would you like me to uh read this letter so that it it's part of the record okay okay um as you review the plan that will be presented tonight we urge you and is signed by a number of individuals um we urge you to weigh the impact it would have on the current residence of the properties under consideration and on the neighborhood in general we understand that as the historic preservation commission your focus is on the past but it should not be at the expense of the present the buildings in questions contain so-called naturally occurring affordable housing units uh and are the home to low and middle inome households pain rents at the low end of the market but unsubsidized by any government programs as African-Americans and previous waves of Irish and Italian immigrants did before them these families settled in Princeton over the past two and three decades as part of the influx of workingclass Latino immigrants who have filled the lines of essential workers serving the rest of us as Cooks nannies gardeners and Masons during Princeton's more recent history it's paradoxical that this plan proposes to turn the existing cluster of 34 homes plus four commercial establishments serving the local community into an architecturally stunning high-end Enclave that will decrease missing midle housing raise the average cost of housing in the downtown area of Princeton and increase tax Assessments in the in the neighborhood this would exactly contradict the intended purpose both of the Princeton jackon historical district designation and the affordable housing overlay zoning as well as the goals of the recently updated Princeton master plan we would be trading 34 homes currently accessible to low and middle income families for 15 income restricted units to which the current tenants would have no right to to return it will represent a net loss of 19 units at the cost of creating 55 market rate units which based on prevailing Market rates would be accessible only to high income individuals what worse according to the architectural plans roughly half of these units would be very small Lofts or Studios and under size two and three bedroom units specifically designed for occupancy of one to three people per unit with a handful of exceptions the new housing will attract the kind of transient single adult employees uh or academics adding to the ongoing steady and irrevocable gentrification of this neighborhood that historic historically has been a refuge to workingclass princetonian um I'll skip over the issues uh regarding the size of the affordable housing units which appear to be out of compliance with the most recently adopted housing affordability controls um I'll also skip of this paragraph about the new legislation that provides for two for one credit um when converting from Market rent to affordable housing um the priston master plan recommend more housing density in the downtown area but subject to not unduly altering the neighborhood fabric the Witherspoon Jackson historic district ordinance recognizes that this is a neighborhood that has historical architectural and cultural significance to the Princeton Community we need to look Beyond shatters and paint and consider the impact on the people it is the cultural significance the very fabric of this neighborhood that is at risk if this plan were to go through without further consideration thank you thank you all right thank you okay come on upk I swear do you swear that the testimony you're about to give this evening is the whole truth to the best of your knowledge yes I do thank you my name is doer Hammond I live on Le Avenue and I just want to say that um I share a lot of the concerns that Maria has brought up um I realize that there's probably not a way to address all of them in the current project but um it was mentioned at the beginning that we need to keep the a reasonable cost for the missing middle and diversity in the neighborhood I also hope where this project through the things that are U by the additional um units that are being provided does provide for both the missing middle and the working class not just uh the missing middle and that there are sufficient units to do that I too worry about the fact that I realize these places have to be upgraded have to be worked on it's going to be expensive and I realize there cost considerations very substantial ones to do it but I also want to try to keep as much affordable housing again for uh the working class as well as the missing middle um the other thing directly involved with what you're talking about um are the bulk I worry about the bulk that's being done there again if it gets us more units and especially if it gets us more affordable and missing middle units um I'm for that um I do think that the designs to me are a little bit kind of U Stark uh where they show up behind the buildings and in some of the views it's true for example in the last development uh that's closer to Lial street that if you look in front of the building itself you cannot see the top of the new building and back if you're on the left hand side though you look down you see a big building um again that may be necessary I think some sort of setbacks might help maybe some windows I don't know um you know it may make it look so It Isn't So Bleak on that level um I do uh commend all the efforts on the historical parts of it and I think you've done a great job a lot of work to develop all that that's all excellent um but I and to keep the fronts looking good restoring them really wonderful uh but again I want to make sure that the it both helps the neighborhood out and does not reduce um the affordability of the neighborhood to do it it maybe the only thing we have to do we have to do a lot of that but still I want to make sure that it's in line with uh trying to keep as much affordable and missing middle in the neighborhood as possible thank you thank you um are there any others who'd like to speak tonight if not I'm going to close the public comment all right let's get back to our deliberations um we had talked about the different points in Elizabeth's memo that we supported we also talked about uh things we wanted the applicant to look at and we do have a memo and maybe um Tara do you want to kind of summarize what what we what you recorded from our conversation so based on um last evening's meeting and perhaps supplemented by tonight uh these were the uh recommendations that would be conveyed to the planning board via the um the commission's memo of endorsement of the project the first is to review the massing of the new buildings in relation to the side streets and neighboring properties and part of that the commission would recommend that the planning board would um require the applicant to provide some elevations to the neighboring properties on the side streets and some information concerning the use and the development on those properties uh the second was to consider reducing the ceiling Heights of the new residential buildings the applicant had discussed during last night's hearing that maybe there was a way to reduce the ceiling Heights between 6 and 8 in because they were proposed to be um uh over you know close to 8 feet a little over 8 feet in each of the in each of the units third was to uh review the structural reports to be provided by the applicant in order to determine whether the demolition proposed meets the standards of the ah7 Zone the commission has now received those reports so the commission can look at those um in relation to their own um their own ordinances that to make sure that the buildings proposed to be demolished do meet the standards and then also just recommend that the planning board as part of their review make sure that those um those demolitions meet the standards set forth in the ah7 zone because the ah7 zone does provide um a requirement for retention of buildings where were feasible uh and then there was the General comply with the tech technical comments from the historic preservation officer has set forth in her January 8th memo uh those included reducing the height of the proposed privacy privacy fencing and installing supplemental Landscaping uh requiring wooden instead of vinyl fencing uh revising the archaeological monitoring plan um requiring exterior lighting to be in a warm War mer Spectrum no greater than 2700 is Kelvin I was I always get that one wrong um providing a 10-ft setback for site three which is to be known as Douglas Hall from Quarry Street from the Quarry Street right of way and providing additional Landscaping within such setback uh removing or lowering the height of the brick wall on site three to be known as Douglas Hall I think the applicant tonight um discussed as part of the supplement Al presentation that that was a consideration to replace that with Landscaping uh revise the elevations of 184 Witherspoon to be accurate uh require Landscaping in front of the fence between the parking lot and the community garden on site two and then additional recommendations from the commission were to require coordination with a subcommittee appointed by the by the commission on the building Restorations those members will be endersby and fredman and then require the applicant to consult with the Witherspoon Jackson historical and Cultural Society with regard to the naming of the buildings and to review the Landscaping plans in detail and update for consistency with um with the presentation at the uh commission meetings thank you and thank you for putting that together so quickly it's really great um yes Elizabeth um I did forget one other thing when I was VI that um which had to do with the variants the setback variants uh one for the buffer and one for the parking I think that we had talked about that yesterday and the other was if the HPC was comfortable talking about the property on 114 116 which was that front porch with Mr hiler had talked about tonight again that um they wanted to be able to restore to the original open porch but because of the H ah7 ordinance that they wouldn't be able to do that without going for a use variance but isn't isn't aren't they doing putting the soccer store in that one or we're talking about the enclosed porch itself yeah okay so so I mean I think there was a conflict with keeping commercial on the street I but what Mr hiler said that he was happy to keep it commercial but retain the front porch oh okay so that the soccer store would have a front porch yeah oh okay they be changing location okay I got it okay so 22 situ yeah right and and obviously that's just a recommendation that HPC can make as far as maybe considering modifying the ordinance to allow these type of changes because they would have to go I mean I talked to to Dan Weissman the landu engineer he says it's a use change because they're allowing you to put housing in according to h07 so it meets a certain criteria which means retaining the primary facing structure so if it's something that doesn't require demolition due to structural issues but they want to restore it to the appropriate historic um original character of it obviously that's what HPC wants and the applicant also wanted it but because of the way the ordinance is written he's not allowed to do it without going for use VAR and if he goes used Vance that means he has to go for Avance for everything that is under the h07 which means all of the housing all the parking and that's not really acceptable I just want to it's because that one that has that that enclosed I'm going call a strange enclosed porch it is it does look a little odd on the street with all the open porches but because they're going to move the soccer store from because they wanted to take out the enclosure and make it a open porch which was the original design of it and then that requires a use variance because there will residential on the first floor no because they're they're not retaining it's so weird it doesn't come easy the way the ah7 ordinance is written it says that you can't change the facades from the at the time the front faades at the time the ordinance was adopted well that strange little store was even though it's illegal was there at the time the ordinance was adopted and through a very I think strict interpretation of the ordinance if we vary from that the zoning the planning office has determined that we would need a use VAR right and I think that should be explained at the planning board because I don't think that is a positive thing in the overlay right so I think that that might be important to include in the memo that's like what I was asking if we could include that should KCK yeah a common sense that's perfect a common sense claw should kick in in the overlay yeah let's like not be stupid about this I have the the bullet point list open on my computer so I can kind of type in so then we have a copy and paste so this is that building is 114 to 116 wither spoon what the building um yeah okay I think it's 114 116 just 114 okay just 114 so would it be safe to say then that the HPC um the HBC would prefer to see that porch return to its historically accurate open porch which was the intent of the applicant all along however he does not desire to go for a use variance yeah without having to deal with without having to get a use variance yeah okay I will see if I can word that a little bit better but as long as I have the general gist of what we want here a question the archaological um um uh investigation is mentioned here and we haven't heard about that I'm I'm reminded Mr Hines for instance used to talk about when he was working at The Livery Stables where Palmer square is now he said those two P maple trees in front of the post office that's where the Livery stable was I'm interested I know a lot of these buildings were were uh um wagon houses and and storehouses and whatever it would be interesting because as you look at that map and you see how much that one strong that one area between John and Witherspoon was developed to the exclusion of so many of the other areas around it more information would be very helpful and is that who is responsible for Archaeology is there has a firm been selected or how what's was Hunter right you use Hunter research right that was the report that we received and I assume that you'd be continuing with them is that correct say that again Hunter research Hunter research Richard Hunter archaeologist you retained right yes yeah and yeah they'll be doing the monitoring when okay so so you would contract with them so we had a a em a couple of cases when utilities are going down King's Highway and whatever right and then we've had a few people stop by once a week and kind of scuff thing you know their shoes and it's not I just want to make sure that there's a little bit more scrutiny right and that we don't get loads and loads of pottery um because that's happened before I I think the one thing that they spoke about the concern is the properties that were adjacent to the two churches um that they were they weren't sure if they were going to have monitoring burial grounds that's in Elizabeth's mammo and we agre to that so we so we're just recommending to you know use the protocols for an archaeological monitor right but and then I just wanted to share that there is some small headstones on the AMC church so they might want to just take that into consideration all right all right do any members have suggestions or uh questions about the points that Tara has brought up tonight and if yeah yes well the one thing that was brought up several times last night and just brought up again is the the notion that there are so many of the single units and we understand there are a lot of individuals who are going to need places to live within this the community but I I am curious about like that one house next to the school is going to be an independent house how many other situations are exist within this plan that address the fact that you're going to have families with three or four kids for instance and it and those individual units don't satisfy that that that sector of the community well there's a number of units that are coming online in Princeton that are affordable um I don't know if the housing office would be involved with this as well as um human services so I think we would want to ask the planning board to um maybe have some kind of Le on to deal with with the issue of the current families living in in the area that they have um a place in the community um available to them good this is kind of beyond the purview of this I commission we're we're we really understood the the situation and we're just recommending um I think we can say although beyond the purview of the historic preservation commission we want to advise the planning board that these this was brought up at our meeting it will probably get brought up at your meeting that you do it that way that works yeah so we will be continuing this this discussion yeah Elizabeth um so there was one question I had when Bob was doing his presentation today so I don't remember if he said it yesterday or I missed it but um Bob you talked about 150 with a spoon Street which is the one that you're totally demolishing and you're bringing it so it's going to be so you had mentioned that it's non-contributing but it actually is contributing it's just not on that list I think but it is a contributing and when it's non-contributing it does you know just FYI just when it's non-contributing doesn't mean that you can automatically demolish it HPC still reviews for for anything I we made a pretty compelling case as to why it should be demolished I thought well I think we'll probably look at the um the structural reports right that'll probably address it but I just wanted to make that clear and also 188 Witherspoon Street was the one that was actually non-contributing and what I wrote in the report is I think that's an error because it clearly states it's probably one of we not taking it down anyway right but just for the record I just wanted to know that that was the one that was listed as non-contributing but I think that's an error because it clearly the only thing that they did was they it I think that's the one that has enclosed porch and that's reversible but otherwise the the building itself you know pretty much retains its original character okay so as far as what we need to say to the planning board are there any other suggestions or comments questions David I was going over some of the details and I'm trying to understand the um the sketches that are made for the doorway on um I think it's 114 it says existing SL proposed and I can't tell what's what that label means I think it's on sheet a515f oh yeah 151a does that mean it's they're going to be replicated yes okay David that means they're going to be replicated I then then I don't understand the labeling um so that the existing and the proposed will match identically then why are they being changed well it's just showing that the existing looks like this but I guess maybe the materials are sub are damaged and there needs to be uh well I guess that's the we'd like some more information on that all right so I guess when because that goes back to a comment Elizabeth made also in her remarks why are all the Torches being totally rebuilt yeah when when um so so you're asking why isn't it restored rather than replicated right cuz there everything's falling apart I mean right so I think um these are diagram s of the existing doors and if they have to be replicated this is a drawing for them but on the other hand it was also required that we show the existing I I'm not sure I can't say where this came from but that we actually draw every one of the existing windows and doors right that is and we sent out a crew for six weeks measuring every single window and and documenting it I see so it's going to be a field call as to whether it's good enough to restore or or there needs to be a replacement we we think all the windows need to be restored the doors were not quite so sure about you mean replaced yeah not rest replaced not rest I think the drawings call for insert windows on all of the existing right so that's what they're proposing so again obviously we always ask for the existing propose so we know what differential Dimensions there are correct but your comment said why are we replacing all of it was there anything that could be repaired mostly a lot of the windows there you don't want to restore them because they're crummy aluminum windows we're actually bringing it back to how it was historically what's there now is right awful and actually my question was about the doors from walking by this summer and reading the the posted notes that this building's going to have restoration done some of the doors look like they were still very solid um I didn't open any I think I think it's a field decision I mean if to the extent that the door and Bob you know kicked me if I get this wrong but to the extent that the doors can be restored they will be to the extent that they're rotted or they just cannot be then they'll be replicated okay can we put that in the memo um um I think we can do that so we do have a recommendation that they be required to work with that subcommittee of the HPC on the restoration so we can put specifically in there with regard to front porches doors and windows they're all right now they're proposed to be replicated rather than restored however such decision will be made in the field and in consultation with that subcommittee that sounds good to me okay good it's good to clarify that's great you know cuz that was that's what people want it's just sort of a clear understanding are there other points that that anyone feels needs to be clarified or are we pretty satisfied with this and if so if is there someone who'd like to move to uh I guess endorse the memo that Tara's been reading that we would send this on to the planning board I I feel that this is a a project that addresses so many issues trying to accomplish a lot of goals and I think it's I think it's an admirable job and I I if we have the memo as we've talked about our concerns um yeah I support the letter thank you and Freda did you second that thank you all right we're going to have a vote yeah Mr shatkin yes Miss Howard yes Mr endersby yes Miss fredman yes Mr Shore yes chairperson capazo yes thank you so much for coming in for a beautiful presentation thanks to the commission members for being thoughtful and considerate and uh we thank our attorney Tara for putting this together so quickly and huge thanks to Elizabeth Kim for putting this report together which was a monster and I think kept her up way too long so we appreciate everybody's efforts um and we hope we'll see you guys at the planning board uh which is on Zoom so you can watch it from home and uh I think it's on the 23rd is that right is that right okay that's correct so I'll be there and I'll be um explaining and so will Elizabeth so everyone will will be there to support this I'd like to thank you all for your patience and for going through all the complications with us well we appreciate you too all right um is there anything other other business we got to do we got to do the subcommittees real quick okay what I don't even know what it says do we who do we need on what subcommittee so we need to fill a position in the Kings Highway we need to fill a position in the Princeton Battlefield State Park expansion and we need the ordinance revision and demolitions and master I think Master Plan update is we could probably take that for now right a quick question oh well actually I think we do have some revisions on that but um I gather by the blue highlighting that we've lost Tom pile on the commission that's correct do we have do we have any additions that are not here we have um we we still have uh positions for alternates Julie didn't did you tell the mayor about the one applicant that that we had talk about that we thought was a good in um that was not Bob right is Bob available it was it was someone who had historic preservation education remember we had three that we looked at great so we still haven't reached out to anyone I don't think I think that the mayor was looking for the list because they did the appointment the other day so let's Circle back okay we'll Circle back but we are looking for an alternate or two we have all our full members two alter we just need an alternate and by the way Charlotte is now a full member not so you have to vote congrats okay and so I guess we should still keep the Master Plan update because there are things that are coming back that still need to be tweaked so we are short of one person on that um and also the princ well let's see no that's it those are the ones that we we need some additional members so the kings highway right now is Julie and David for which one for King's Highway King's Highway okay who else wants to do that one r i mean David do you want to do that because you live on the King's Highway I think I'm already on it with you no she's saying it's me and Al oh I be yeah I would like to yeah okay Elizabeth David wants to do it he's already on there Oh I thought you said me and El were on there oh no no David and Julie okay sorry who else who else wants to do that one I'll call you Charlotte you want to do that one okay okay so Charlotte's willing to do King's Highway great okay and then the second one is the Princeton Battlefield State Park oh the battlefield actually is in is very active interpretive and Princeton sign and there will be a visitor center there eventually right am I already on that one do you want to I don't know you might have a conflict I I practically live on it yeah I I'm okay with you being on it your and your jacket is there anything going on with any of these yeah the battlefield there is yeah Battlefield definitely there is there's a lot going on anyone for that one for the battlefield yes um it's D David you're on it I guess he's already on it and Roger's on it and Roger on it okay well I I could be on it because I um I'm involved with the Quaker Meeting right next door okay then the um the other one is the ordinance revisions and demolitions El so Roger and David are on that El do you want to be on that no no how about Charlotte demolitions and ordinance revisions I could do that Freda fra said she'll do it and then we need one other person for the Master Plan update just it okay well then Char Charlotte can do that oh my go thank you charlot your new fulltime job I know that's it all right that's it okay okay so does anyone want to approve the revised subcommittee list okay Al second Charlotte all in favor say I I opposed motion carried not theing house in ctage has appeared on this list for we could take that off I think I mean it's busy yeah it's running yeah are we still keeping Valley Road School what's that are we still keeping the Valley Road school I think we could leave it on there and okay see what happens um Roger did you want anyone else on your public education committee is Charlotte on that with you okay they're doing a great job definitely oh you know what that one was Roger yours was a website did you want anyone else on that okay our Ian's been helping with with that so that's been very helpful yeah I'd like to see some what kind of mapping good user friendly ma okay so the map is up there it's the only one we have is the official one and you can blow it up when you have it on there sta all at yes so we also have a GIS that we've been working on to be able to go on there and you can actually put your address or your lot in block and then it'll bring you to your property or you know someone is interested in purchasing or have any questions they can do that and it'll pop up to say what zone it's in whether it's in the historic district but they've been working on that for a while but all right do we have any other order business items okay exting missing they don't put any Easter because I think when they built when they made it it was at a scale so yeah I try to get that on there it's difficult yes yeah we can ask all right so our next meeting is when early I think it's like February 3rd all right February 3rd and can you just give us a heads up what we might expect well right now we don't have anyone on that agenda I think it was February 3rd yeah we don't have anyone on the agenda for now okay so if we don't have any agenda but it it is only the 9th yeah it's pretty early okay anyway is at 5 or 4 all meetings are at 5: now in this room that's I think that's one of the reasons that we had it on the third because uh the 7th is a holiday and I believe that the commiss the the council had it on the 10th so we didn't have much of a choice it was either the third or the 24th and I think that the 24th was problematic for I don't remember why but all right I have one concern that is Charlotte and I are going to be on the sub committe committee reviewing what we've been doing here for last couple of days I'm leaving and it looks to me like there going to be a lot of issues that we didn't necessarily anticipate I I don't think they're going to be starting until like actual construction for a while yes so I I thought this was they got to go to planning board in the 23rd all the doors window three years I I think it's going to be couple of months they're going to have planning board they're going to have to get the findings effects a month afterwards and then um they'll probably have to update their drawings okay and I'd send it to by email so is there a motion to adjourn so we could let Tara get off please okay all right Al has a motion is there a second second okay David seconds all in favor say I I okay you're free thank you so much and we didn't make an announcement again that Tara St Angelo is hpc's new conflict attorney so sorry that we didn't make that publicly and yet yesterday's meeting so in any case but welcome and