##VIDEO ID:g3YqjdDud6k## all right good evening everyone welcome to the meeting of the mayor and Council of Princeton New Jersey it is October 28th 2024 uh Madame clerk could we have the meeting statement please yes mayor adequate notice of this meeting was provided in accordance with the requirements of the open public meetings act including the time date and location of the meeting in addition the agenda and all related materials were posted electronically and made available to the public on Princeton's meeting portal in advance of the meeting thank you uh I'll read the land acknowledgement this evening We Gather today on the land of the Lenny Lenape as members of the Princeton Community we aspire to show appreciation respect and concern for all peoples in our environment we honor the lenapi and other indigenous caretakers of these lands and Waters the elders who lived here before the indigenous today and the generations to come we have roll call please miss Peron lambrose here miss Neer gang here Mr Cohen miss saxs here miss froga here Mr nulan here mayor Freda I am here you have Quorum okay if you'd like to stand and join us in the pledge of allegiance that would be great I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all thank you all right while I'm talking I'm going to be fidgeting with a screen here we have a screen that shows us what the council people are doing so like when it's time to say who's doing what I can just pick them here and not have to look both ways and not see them so sorry I'm going to be trying to turn this thing on uh but while I'm doing that we do have some proclamations and the first Proclamation is for Centurion and Leticia are you starting us on yeah I'm leading I'm leading this one off he starting us sorry I wasn't sure that's fine I'm going to uh make some remarks and turn it over to Leighton who is Leon in the room I saw him you're too good to me thank you okay um so uh thank you for being here tonight to uh honor this incredible organization um I had heard of centurion uh probably many of you have but I had no idea they were actually headquartered in Princeton and once I became aware of that I wanted to be sure the community knew about the incredible work that centurion does I want to thank thank uh Charlie Yedlin for making the introduction uh to the Centurion uh executive director Corey Waldren who hosted uh my colleague Council colleague uh Leon nulan and I and just spent I think a couple hours answering every question uh about their work which had nothing to do with what we're doing tonight but just helped us understand the organization so uh thank you for that um and of course to uh Jim mclusky who were honored to have you join us tonight who founded uh such an amazing organization and has been nurturing it in our midst Centurion is one answer to the question quote what are you going to do to address the wrong that you see in the world in this case the answer is an organization that supports and defends the wrongfully convicted while they are incarcerated and then continues to support them after their release a truly unique and necessary service Leighton thank you Eve you know I um I wrote something down and I was just trying to scramble for it and look for it on my iPhone but I'm going to stop looking for it and I'm just going to talk from the heart uh I spent 24 years as director of special services at Community Education Centers in Newark New Jersey 2 24 years of helping men re-enter Society from an incarcerated State men that could apply for uh residential Community relief services when there were between two and 24 months of uh parole or what the vernacular is maxing out of the system which means that they were ending their system and ending their commitment to the New Jersey Department of Corrections 24 years commuting from Princeton Route One New Jersey turn by actually 13A up in around freom lien Avenue getting to my office 8:30 in the morning working with men all day long that were trying to reenter Society because they had been incarcerated now now keep in mind most of these men were guilty but yet and still they were going to be serving many years in the New Jersey Department of Corrections and many of these men were serving time simply because you know what they had a little bit of cannabis a small ounce or two of cannabis now right now anybody in this room everybody on this Des can go anywhere in the state of New Jersey and buy cannabis cost you a little money you could even have a medical situation and you could get it but you know you will no longer do any time about going to prison here in the state of New Jersey for using cannabis a medicine a medicine that the Lenny Lenape knew an awful lot about not a crime no criminality just a plant a plant that grows everywhere here in the United States of America if you put it in the right type of soil and nutrients think about that for a minute everybody all right now let's fast forward to people that Centurion deals with that are doing time day by day hour by hour minute by minute month by month year by year years by years children at home loved one at homes doing time for a [Music] crime that they did not commit losing half of their lives tons of the times that they could be spending with their families for crimes and and crimes in parentheses because they didn't commit the crimes so I'm sharing all this with you to say for 24 years I dealt with people in the New Jersey Department of Corrections that were trying to remit their lives correct their lives to do something positive with their lives so it gives me great pleasure and this is probably the the greatest acknowledgement we here in Princeton will ever have for the only entity in quite frankly the world that does what these people do they look at people who are committed to the rest of their lives to be jailed up and cried and and locked up for something they did not do God bless you and and and and and it's amazing to me that you're the only people in the world that do this am I emotional you damn right you damn right because this is something great and and and this acknowledgement should not just be knowledge by the city of Princeton the state of New Jersey but the whole wide world should understand the impact of the people that take their time their ability their capabilities and volun that use their time and and and and and spend their time to exonerate people who are in jail like like during time like they can't even get out and spend time with their children and they didn't do what they're accused of doing and they're in jail for it for years these people get people out of jail to have not done their crime and I can't say enough about the love that we should share with you and show you and and and maybe I'm a little emotional I I'll I'll absorb that and own that but damn it this needs to be something to share it on MSNBC and everybody in the rest of the world that should know that work is being done here in Princeton New Jersey and it could very possibly be the only place on planet Earth that helps exonerated people people who have not who are are committed to the rest of their lives to spend their lives in jail and have not done what the law and the judicial system has said they have done and and and and and if it ain't a Time in America to acknowledge with everything else that's going on here in this country that there are people that are being mishandled mistreated disenfranchised and marginalized than I don't know what's going on Centurion you are the bomb you're the root and the world should acknowledge the work that you do I'm done here thank you oh I got to read this all righton why why don't you start us off with the let me do this and and and and and thank you Centurion because nobody does it like you and God bless you for taking on and and and let me just say this Eve and I were there weren't we Eve we were there and we saw the people the real men and women that got their lives back because they were they they were locked up unfortunately it be they didn't even do what they were locked up for doing can you can can anybody here in this in this in in in this Auditorium and manage imagine being locked up for something you didn't do for years okay all right Leon before you start those of you who who want to please put on your I Didn't Do It Hat uh or they didn't do it hat my bad I say I all right I'm back now y'all and I apologize but sometimes you know what emotion takes over and if this ain't important then I ain't Janet nervin Nan son and I am Janet and nvan Nan son here we go Proclamation Office of the mayor Municipality of Princeton Proclamation recognizing Centurion you better believe it whereas in 1983 Jim mclusky founded Centurion in Princeton New Jersey as the first innocence organization in the world with a mission to provide services to vindicate the wrongfully convicted and whereas Centurion takes on the most difficult murder and rape cases from across the country those with no DNA evidence available to prove their clients's innocence and whereas centurion's expert team re investigates the crimes for which their clients were convicted uncovering lost evidence finding new evidence convincing a coerced witness to come forward with the truth overturning false confessions and sometimes even finding the real criminal and whereas one Centurion takes on an individual's case they will not stop fighting for justice until their client is freed no matter how long it takes and whereas Centurion receives more than 1,000 new requests for help from incarcerated individuals each year and whereas centurion's investigated investigative and legal teams manage and average 20 to 25 Active cases from across the country at any given time and whereas centurion's case development team is staffed largely by volunteers from the Princeton area who spend years communicating with inmates to build complete case records and identify viable cases of innocence and whereas on average centurion's clients spent an average of 20 years imprisoned for crimes they had absolutely nothing to do with I'm I'm stepping in for my colleague David who isn't here today whereas Centurion formalized their post-release support program in 2020 to help freed clients build sustainable self-determined lives after their release by connecting them to Community Resources in their area to help them meet their needs and whereas Centurion is currently providing post-release support services to more than 30 individuals across the country and whereas Centurion is the only innocence organization in the country that is committed to comprehensively supporting clients post relief post relase for the remainder of their lives and whereas Centurion has had the longtime support of thousands of generous residents of Princeton and Beyond to support our services and whereas since its founding Centurion has freed 71 innocent individuals from wrongful imprisonment representing accumulative 1500 years of life lost and whereas Centurion will continue to fight for the rightful freedom of innocent individuals who have been victimized by our country's criminal legal system for decades to come and now therefore I more fra mayor of the municipality of Princeton and the Council of Princeton County of Mercer state of New Jersey do hereby recogniz recognize centorian thank you [Applause] [Music] [Music] I think we have a couple of uh people or at least one from Centurion who are gonna thank you so much my name is Corey Waldren I'm the executive director at Centurion and I'm here tonight with Jim mesy our founder um and two of our incredible supporters Charlie and Shelley Yedlin um I want to thank the council Mr Mayor for um the resolution this evening and I would especially like to thank um Eve and Leon for coming and spending time at the office and learning about what we do um I genuinely believe that we all have a role to play in creating a more just Society so the fact that you took such an interest in our work is incredibly meaningful Centurion is the first innocence organization in the world and its roots are deep here in Princeton um this work began right up the road when Jim mclusky was in the Princeton seminary uh and working as a volunteer at the Trenton state so thank you so much for I want to thank all the people of Princeton for all of the generous support they've lended us over the years whether it's volunteers or contributions um or supporting the individuals that we serve when they are released so thank you very much for the recognition this evening we great we really appreciate it great and Jim you're going to speak and then we'll take we'll give you the proclamation we'll take a photo I'm not on the agenda but I have to say something um I've lived in Princeton since 1979 so I have deep roots in this community and I just want to let you know how much tonight and this Proclamation means to me as an individual and of course to the entire Centurion organization so thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking the time and making the effort to offer us this Proclamation I really appreciate it thank you Mr mclusky thank you thank you for the work that you do thank you very much [Applause] it's yours too okay okay again thank you all for that uh we have another Proclamation um I'm going to have a few remarks and then I think I'm just going to uh read the Proclamation all by my my lonesome um just uh in the interest of time it's it's fairly short thank you so uh this one some of you may know is is personal for me uh both my kids were diagnosed with postero orthostatic tacac cardia syndrome or pots as it's known which is a form of disautonomia in 2009 it was a life-changing experience for our children and for our family by the fall of that year I had a 13-year-old and a 16-year-old who were too sick to go to school too weak to walk around the block and a variety of medical professionals were telling us it's all in your head it was a multi-year struggle first getting the correct diagnosis and then finding the re the Right medical care and a way back to a normal life way too little is know known about this family of conditions which is also a common development now among long covid sufferers hopefully that additional attention will lead to more research dollars and more familiarity from pediatricians and other Frontline medical professionals who have the ability to diagnose disautonomia sufferers I'm happy to report that both my children have lives and jobs and are contributing members of their communities but that outcome was not foreordained back in 2009 and I hope this Proclamation brings more awareness of this condition to Princeton Proclamation recognizing the month of October 2024 as dis disautonomia Awareness Month in Princeton whereas disautonomia is a group of medical conditions that result in a malfunction of the autonomic nervous system which is responsible for automatic bodily functions such as respiration heart rate blood pressure digestion and temperature control and whereas disautonomia impacts over 70 million people around the world and includes conditions such as postural orthostatic tacac cardia syndrome or pots which affects 1 to 3 million people and one in 100 te in the United States and whereas about 30% of long covid patients meet the criteria for pots or other forms of disautonomia and whereas disautonomia affects people of any age gender race or background including individuals living in Princeton and whereas some forms of disautonomia can be very disabling and can result in Social isolation stress on the families of those impacted and financial hardship and whereas dis autonomia is often challenging to diagnose with an average of four years from sympton onset to confirmation of diagnosis and therefore increased awareness about disautonomia will help patients get diagnosed and treated earlier save lives and Foster support for individuals and families coping with disautonomia in our community community and whereas disautonomia International a 501c3 nonprofit that Advocates on behalf of patients living with dis autonomia encourages communities to celebrate disautonomia Awareness Month each October around the world and whereas we wish to recognize the contributions of the professional medical community patients and family members who were working to educate our residents about disautonomia now therefore be it proclaimed I Eve Neer gang speaking for Mark Freda mayor of Princeton and the Council of Princeton County of Mercer state of New Jersey do hereby proclaim the month of October 2024 as disautonomia awareness month [Music] thank and we have a couple of people who are uh princetonian who would like to speak about some of their experiences so come on up please and then we'll do the same thing we'll uh take a picture with the proclamation thank you thank you thank you even thank you to the council for this Proclamation until the spring of 2023 our daughter was an enthusiastic and en complished student a theater kid and a member of the climbing team following a string of V illnesses she spent this summer unable often to even get out of bed she had trouble walking even short distances and suffered from debilitating headaches and nausea her former pediatrician was stumped but a new better informed one suspected pots clinical testing at Children's Hospital Philadelphia confirmed it pots to provide further contact as Eve has already done is an extreme dysfunction of the autonomic nervous system and in our case characterized by racing heart dizziness deep fatigue and GI symptoms and as you've also said since Co since Co there has been an overwhelming increase in new cases it was helpful to have a diagnosis but it didn't change the devastating effect that the illness continued to have on our daughter she began junior year last fall but her symptoms now including brain fog and near fainting episodes where she appeared to be unconscious which is a bit of a sub of symptoms of sufferers from pots led her to go on medical leave within weeks and subsequently to withdraw from school alog together we embarked on our own journey of how to help her better manage her symptoms culminating this summer in a month at the Intensive Pediatric Rehab Clinic in Rochester Minnesota at the Mayo Clinic in addition to providing a physical reset which has enabled her to return to school for her senior year and we feel very lucky about this relative uh uh Speedy uh helping manage her symptoms we saw up close while we were at Mayo and also Boston Children's Hospital actually how many kids and families are dealing with disautonomia issues and the devastating tool it takes on all of their lives from chronic pain and social isolation for the kids to relationship and financial stressors of course for the parents our daughter's in a better place than a year ago better able to manage her symptoms but still unable to take her former rigorous course load or return to the stage we're hopeful that this Proclamation will help bring greater awareness to the medical and school communities in particular so that it can be better understood Solutions found so that fewer young people and adults will suffer from it in future thank you so much again for this Proclamation thank you hi uh my name is erel and uh before I start thank you to Eve and the council for allowing me to speak tonight um I am a graduate student at Princeton Theological Seminary uh and just this summer I was diagnosed with pots uh which we have already read the full name of um this condition affects many parts of my body but especially my circulatory system um and how the blood flows to my heart and my brain uh this causes many issues including elevated heart rate with any physical activity and fainting or dizziness with any movement even just standing like I am right now uh other symptoms that are common for myself and many others uh with pots are extreme brain fog fatigue body pain digestive issues uh plenty more with that uh this has affected my life in many ways uh but I felt these debilitating effects most in my role as an active father to a young boy and as a graduate student I'm not able to play with my son the same way I used to I've had to change the way I study and I work and sometimes my body and my mind just do not want to work with me Reading Writing cooking dinner or even just a walk with my family are made difficult or even impossible depending on how my symptoms are presenting at times this condition feels like it's too much to handle uh luckily I have friends professors and my family supporting me and uh they've given me more support than I could ever ask for their help not only makes up the deficit created by my disability but they help remind me to be kind to myself and to take the rest and assistance that I need uh and like Eve said uh many people experience a multi-year diagnosis process uh I was lucky to only have to have three hospital stays over the course of about 3 months and I got a diagnosis um but uh for me to find out that I had this I had a friend who suffers from this come to me and say hey I think this is what you you have going on um and luckily I found a doctor that was able to help but the process was lengthy and took a long time and I I missed almost an entire semester of school um bringing more awareness to disautonomia and the conditions under that umbrella can help doctors and patients as well as their loved ones know more about their condition and have to treat it effectively I am glad to see the city of Princeton bringing more attention to this condition and I hope that this can help everyone that suffers from it uh so they can find their new normal and not only survive but also be able to succeed thank you for your time thank you picture PR side some more muscles for this oh does it actually go on top of that oh I didn't realize okay okay thank you for that now we have an award and Michelle you're yeah taking the lead okay um so you know it's really vital for our town to that has the flavor and character and culture it does um to have all of these wonderful homegrown mom and pop uh stores restaurants and tonight it's with great pleasure that I um am going to give an award of recognition along with my colleagues the mayor uh to jam and creps one of our our very young own uh local local uh restaurants and uh I got hungry just just thinking about this uh this commemoration so uh I'll read that in commemoration of their 10th anniversary we would like to recognize jaming crabs for their contributions to the Princeton Community their mission is a celebration of local and Regional Farms wrapped in a crap that highlights the very best locally sourced ingredients they believe that eating local is is a win-win for all their mission at jam and creps is to serve and preserve The Very Best of The Local Harvest throughout all the seasons they work directly with our numerous local farmers and food Artisans Farm sources include local favorites like trun Orchards chick Creek Blue Moon and many others they even serve small world coffee providing a great collaboration between two locally owned and I must say women-owned businesses jam and reps has always been committed to making a difference in how they manage waste and have been a leader in the community to show best practices of how to do it they partner with local resources to compost their food and other waste and we one of the very first in our town to only use compostable paper and plastic takeout products as a locally owned and operated small business they've worked hard building their business to where it is today so we all would like to thank Co co-owners Kathy Clen brbr alond and Kim risk and their dedicated friendly and knowledgeable staff for all their hard work and commitment to our town thank you [Applause] [Music] oh my goodness I thought um I'm going to make this really quick um I want to thank the municipality um on behalf of my business partners um we could not be where we are with all the support you guys have given us we all know Co gave us a run for our money and um the hotel though was it's wonderful to see open uh you guys have been incredibly supportive every time we've come for uh help so thank you for allowing us to continue to grow and be a part of this great Community really appreciated [Applause] s all okay thank you again uh now let's go on to announcements and reports from members of council any announcements Michelle okay um I do uh I would like to at the um the wrap up for the recreation department the wrap-up for the summer youth programs I just like to share with the community um and my colleagues uh some really great information um so first of all the day camp six week long day camp uh saw 554 participants with an average of 92 per week and the travel Camp was 192 participants with 48 per week there's a whole variety of different camps basketball track Sports volleyball skateboard and so on and really important the Bluefish swim um swim and dive lessons uh which is so vital to our community uh but what I'd really like to share uh tonight is some really great statistics in terms of the financial aid program every family and individual that requested assistance received financial assistance there was 27% of all the participants in the day camp receive financial assistance 44% of the participants in the travel Camp also receive financial assistance and this assistance not only through our wonderful Recreation Department which is headed by Evan Morehead in his really Stellar team uh there are partner agencies throughout the town that I'd just like to acknowledge and thank that includes Coco Parker bear Princeton Children's Fund Princeton community housing housing initiatives of Princeton The Greggs Farm Association and send hun hunger packing which provided funding for over 900 lunches for the campers as well as snacks the total subsidy provided by the partners and the recreation department was in excess of $882,000 this past summer so I just wanted to acknowledge and thank all of those great Community um participants and sponsors and um we just have a really Stellar recreation department so we're really fortunate so thank you thank you Eve uh I just have to say Michelle that's phenomenal I did not know that uh and thank you for for sharing that information with us um I have a couple of brief uh announcements um on November 7 Thursday at 12:30 there will be a ribbon cutting for uh the property that we acquired in 2021 the 153 acre property and we'll have information in our newsletter about where to go where to park for that we hope to have a a brief uh walk through some of the woods that uh our Consortium Partners in particular the ridw turtles have been working on um so uh you know I thank my my colleagues in the town for uh spending the money to preserve this and now let's you know get people out there to uh enjoy the property um and just briefly uh the environmental commission I think I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that they had uh tours of uh uh properties of houses that had green and environmental sustainability features that was at the end of September and um on the 19th of October the uh videos that were done of those houses were shown at the public library thank you Kim and the rest of the library staff for making that happen and there was a very uh energetic discussion about what individuals can do to make their homes more uh energy efficient and uh more resilient um so hopefully the environmental commission will do that again next year again the actual tour of the houses and then a series of videos and and discussion with experts about how uh people who are not Architects can take steps like that so thanks thank you Eve any other Council and Leticia yes thank you uh I just want to announce that our Princeton Human Services Department is in the process of conducting uh their annual Holiday Drive D this uh will be the 26th year that uh Human Services has been fulfilling holiday wishes for children in our community uh last year they had over 350 applications and uh they're in need of uh donors uh wishing to uh participate uh fulfill the wishes of uh children and our community uh the forum for uh donors who wish to participate is available on the human services website and uh they need to uh be uh turned in by Friday November 15th uh for more information you can um contact our human services department at 609 68820 55 thank you thank you lcia other Council announcements or reports Laden thank you Mark my message to all of Princeton in this delightful Halloween season Thanksgiving season Christmas season is to be local shop local and be about not Amazon and not shopping online but take a walk around the town of Princeton the people that here they care about you they love you they own businesses here they have put their lives and their Lively stock and all that they have their heart and their soul into keeping us aware and and and building businesses here in Princeton support them shop local be local spend your dollars locally forget Amazon and everything else spend your money here Spread Your Love here be local spend local adapt to local environment thank you thanks Leon other Michelle I just remembered um tomorrow at 4:00 the police department I always does a wonderful job of sponsoring a trunk Retreat right here at 400 Witherspoon so just dress your little ones up and bring them over you might even get scared by a few of us uh mayor and council members uh you never know so we might just surprise you watch out watch out for a warlock that's right and I just want to say too um please be safe on Halloween I it does get a little crowded in the center of town so please um just be aware of your surroundings and um enjoy and be safe thank you all right any other Council announcements or reports all right we have a public hearing on uh resolution 24 3111 311 sorry uh resolution of the mayor and Council of Princeton confirming final assessments for local improvements pursuant to ordinance 2018 4 sanitary sewer improvements on Lynden Lane and Spruce Street could someone make a motion in a second so we could discuss that thank you Leon's got the motion Michelle's got the second Council comments and questions first and then we'll jump to the public anybody up here with a question or comment Dean do you want to take us kind of summarize yes I can do that thank you mayor I'm sorry can I can I just say one thing I don't know if this was corrected in the in the council agenda but the the meeting date of the meeting at which this was discussed was incorrect it got was corrected okay thank you Reena never mind um in 2018 Council adopted ordinance two 2018-4 which established a preliminary assessment in the amount of $471,000 um over $11 property ities within the limits of the lyen lane and Spruce Street Improvement project this assessment was for sanitary sewer lateral repairs on private property um when we got into the construction project and began the closed circuit TV inspection of the laterals uh we found that a majority of the laterals did not require any replace M on private property um typically in the assessment itself that it's made up of a few different items of work one is the CCTV inspection two is um a cleanout on private property as well as replacing Su Sewer Lateral piping on private property um our estimated prices when we created the prelimin AR estimate was were higher than what the bid prices came from the contractor so in terms of the CCTV inspection price um it was about $120 per property and instead of including that price in the assessment for 101 properties we recommend as part of this process that um Council absorb that cost cost as part of the project rather than having it as an assessment on the properties this is because the cost to assess over 10 years um is quite frankly more than the amount that is paid for the CCTV inspection so what this final assessment um comes up with is that there are 10 tax slots to receive an assessment and that is based on the work that was completed on each of those properties the properties include 10 Spruce Street 20 Spruce Street 26 Spruce Street 42 Spruce Street 7375 Moran Avenue 4347 Spruce Street 70 Spruce Street 74 Spruce Street 7678 Spruce Street and 82 Spruce Street the total amount to be assessed um is $8,600 quite a bit less than the $471,000 that was initially um estimated and the individual assessments per property range from $429 70 up to $1,289 oh sorry Jim reminded me that there is a lower one at $85 94 cents um so with that I can answer any questions you might have so all these assessments are for work done on private property minus the cost of the uh video videoing of the inside of the pipes correct yes um Princeton when we have these projects we do pay for the cost of replacing laterals and putting cleanouts in within the right of way even though the entire lateral is owned by the property owner okay and the property owners have the option of paying this off over two months right away or over the 10 years correct they can pay over 10 years um or immediately when the invoice comes but to be clear if they do choose the 10year option and then decide to pay early the full amount of the interest would be due with that payment you don't shortcut the 10 years of Interest by paying early unless you pay initially at receiving the invoice we're very tough okay any Council questions or comments at this point before we open up to the public okay anybody in the room that wants to speak to this just come up to the microphone and all all right nobody in the room uh anybody on Zoom that wants to speak to this just raise your hand okay nobody on Zoom either all right we're g to close the public hearing and uh is this a regular Vote or a roll call vote okay Miss Peron lambrose yes Miss Neer gang yes Mr Cohen Miss saxs yes yes Miss froga yes Mr nulan yes Carri thank you thank you for anyone that's either here in the room or on Zoom that came for this next up is public comments for items not on the agenda so if there's anybody that wants to make a comment again for something not on the agenda this is the time to do that and if you have something we'll ask you to stay your name and address and you'll have three minutes to make whatever comment that is anybody in the room that has a com I'm sorry what I miss oh okay stand by for comments not on the agenda a staff announcement that one time I didn't ask learned my lesson sorry thank you mayor I I just wanted to remind um the public that we do have a public information center in this room on October 30th at 6:00 p.m. it's also being held virtually uh we will be discussing the storm water utility feasibility study there will be a presentation by our consultant um and then uh Q&A session that's available and key topics to be discussed include storm water utility Concepts uh our compliance requirements for our storm water system and then benefits of an improved storm water management program and one other announcement on November 9th we have sh shredfest um had to get this in because the next council meeting is not till the 12th so we have a shredfest from 10:00 a.m. to 2: p.m. at Westminster choir College parking lot uh sustainable Princeton will be joining us again uh to upcycle different items so please check out our website for the list of things that are accepted thank you I'm sorry which date did you say that was I'm trying to put it on my calendar while you were talking tonight November 9th 9th thank you 10 am to 2: p.m. 10 to 2 okay that's it for announcements all right let's jump back to public comments not on the agenda anybody have come on up to the microphone we'll figure it out all right so I had my name's Lori heage and I'm here actually because I have some comments about parking but I think parking's also on the agenda so Lori if we we corresponded so this has to do with the uh parking around the high school do do you think or or not really it's not I mean it's related but I had a personal issue related to parking that came up in the context of you are now talking about parking so I can sit down and wait or well we going into it we are going to be talking about parking around the high school so if you think that that's that's going to tie into that we can wait but if you're going to keep it separate from that now would be the time to do that so um I'll dive in I uh I was corresponding with Eve about parking on Walnut Lane so I live on Hickory Court and there is parking on Walnut on either side of Hickory Court which there are no sight lines it I so I've been living there for over 25 years when we first moved in students would get their permits and they would start to park March April but of course now the the parking has just exploded so we have visitors we have students excuse me you you cannot get out of Hickory Court so I was writing to uh sergeant strobo asking him what could we do and he said really you have to start with an ordinance from the council there's nothing I can do so I am here appealing to you to try to do something about the sight lines um Walnut Lane is actually a mess uh I don't there are a lot of new drivers students frustrated parents who who are trying to drop their kids off uh people using the football field visitors people using uh sports facilities at the middle school the the gym exercise programs it is so busy and crowded if you could just find a way to reduce the parking where there are residences we could at least get out of our court what I end up doing is just um going slowly into Walnut but most people think that I'm ignoring them and they so there have been some very ugly encounters because they don't realize from our end we simply can't see so you creep up into Walnut Lane and people think you're just ignoring them and you're going to plow into them it's an ugly situation so I appeal to you to take a look at it especially in the context of parking in general in our neighborhood okay thank you anybody else in the room that has anything for comment not on the agenda okay is there anybody on Zoom that has a comment for something not on the agenda all right seeing none we'll close that part of the meeting and now we have a presentation uh related to Hines Plaza concept plan okay okay joining us this evening is James robado with um arterial Princeton Council had awarded a professional service agreement with arterial to prepare a concept plan for um a refresh of Hines Plaza which was originally constructed in opened I think in back in approximately 2004 so with that I'll turn it over to James all right thank you uh So the plan would be to uh briefly introduce the the project and then happy to take any questions microphone closer yes okay got it uh okay so this just slide represents the the process the schedule and and sort of where we are and and next steps so as you could see we've gone through a number of uh things here site visits stakeholder meetings uh steering committee workshops to arrive at uh this evening so this evening the council presentation in October of 2024 and what I'd like to do is just briefly touch on the organizational structure of the plaza uh the main point that I'd like to mention about this is that it was based on the feedback we received along with our own observations uh the current structure of the plaza no longer matches the demands that are placed upon the plaza from a daily basis day-to-day use uh but more importantly the the various programmatic events that take place here so this slide um just represents a few of the options uh that we came up with we're not going to focus on them this evening but we worked with the steering committee to arrive at a preferred reorganization of the plaza uh and unfortunately one of the things you'll notice on this slide is the existing trees themselves are in Decline and and really have reached the end of their lifespan uh so each of the options includes the reor reorganization of trees as well so this is the preferred diagram and a couple things that I'd like to note on this diagram that will help as we move through the the design itself um the plaza itself extends to the edge of Witherspoon Street uh giving the plaza a more prominent presence on Witherspoon Street as well as essentially expanding the usable space which we'll point out later in a bird's eyee uh perspective where uh that idea may make more sense as you could see a better visual uh in order to better accommodate a variety of events and programming that takes place in the plaza the trees are grouped together um to open up the plaza which you can see um in that Central space there that that's created this provides opportunities for sitting in the shade during the the warmer months but also in the Sun during cooler months uh or on cooler days the number of fixed elements is limited that was something that we heard loud and clear that movable Furniture is you know the uh the most important thing so that again uh the events can be accommodated the Alle of trees along the Eastern side align with the door of the community room of the library with a 20ft uh designated space for outdoor dining on the right where Christine's and the Witherspoon Grill are another goal that we show here was to better integrate the existing pergola into the plaza as well as utilizing it for public art uh two more points uh the next was to really provide a more prominent uh Gateway sort of seating feature that displays the namesake of the plaza if you you know think about the instagrammable moment or place that is uh created you know here we wanted to feature that something that can be used um you know for seating but also just more prominently display the namesake of the of the plaza uh also a seating platform that can be used for seating on a daily basis but double as a stage for events excuse me mayor is is it possible during this presentation for you to like use a pointer and designate like can you see this on your screens is everyone foll that okay all right okay thank you sure I had planned on it but I wasn't using it um okay and then and the final thing was really to to take any of the existing sculpture and plaques and reuse them in some way shape or form so that they get reincorporated into the plaza okay so with that as a basis I'd like to just look then at the design uh and and just a reminder that this is concept so the D details and the elements really would be further vetted during a schematic design process so the next couple of slides are going to contain Furniture materials and some of the ideas that we've incorporated into the design which will then cover afterwards which hopefully it'll help as you get a reference point for what we're looking at when it comes to the design itself so on this slide um you could see the materials that we're proposing the perimeter of the plaza which you could see these two images on the bottom um and the the the light blue area that was on the the diagram in the previous slide shows the Witherspoon pavement treatment being used to really incorporate what was done on Witherspoon uh into the plaza so it's used along the edges of the buildings that go to the Spring Street um garage entrances uh and then the infill paving which is the center of the plaza are what you see at the top here the options 1 two and three and again like I mentioned this is concept so we provided a few different options um of different types of pavers that that could be used uh the steering committee did prefer option one a bit of a larger paver um but again those things can be vetted as we as we move through the process uh this next slide shows a Furniture pette which combines a more sophisticated pette with a series of featured elements that we'll cover briefly in the next few slides but you can see uh what we're proposing for bike racks uh trash and recycling recepticles tables and chairs uh umbrellas and lighting so these images give a better visual of some of the furniture that we mentioned uh when speaking about the reorganization of the plaza so up the picture in the upper left here this Gateway feature bench this is the idea of taking the the name of the plaza and having it displayed a little bit more prominently providing seating but also being that um instagrammable moment this this same picture we have pictures of it where you know there's a wedding party standing on it you know taking a picture or you know somebody who's visiting uh the the the city you know taking a selfie of that space the picture in the upper right is just an example of the uh seating platform which on a day-to-day basis you can see in this picture people are just sitting along the edges of it um but it could also then be used as a stage when there are events um it's something that you can then easily put electrical hookups in uh if if power is necessary for whatever the uh event is and then the three images at the bottom represent just one idea of movable sculptural seating uh that could be used in the plaza that when it's not being s in it it's fun and engaging and and colorful but also doubles as uh seats those are actually located um an example of those on Division Street in Somerville so if you wanted to drive over there and sit in them you you could try it out okay so this slide looks at the existing pergola and how we could renovate it to utilize it more as a a public art piece and also better integrated into the plaza make sure I got my mouse here okay so a couple of the things that we would like to do is thin out the Wisteria that is along the top and along the columns uh the really it acts as a barrier to uh the stores behind it um and and it's a bit it can be Wisteria can be a bit unruly but also um uh it's really nice when it flowers so we don't want to get rid of it but thinning it out exposing some more of the structure um The Columns as you could see here using the columns and wrapping them in some type of um WP that can be utilized as art so here we're just showing example and and we're just showing arbitrary colors uh the patterning on there is actually the pattern from the gates themselves um so we just use that just to communicate the idea that this can be an art component this this sort of wrap of the columns and up here you could see some different images of examples of what um what those column wraps could be uh also if you can notice on this column here and I know that this is this is sort of set in the middle of nowhere but we'll see how it applies this green projecting sign here we we included here as a signage that would better um Point people in the direction of the two stores that um are on the Plaza on this on this side right now it's it's hard to see where they are and notice where they are so we were looking at incorporating some kind of signage to make them more visible and again electrical hookups could be incorporated there there are a few but more can be incorporated uh into this pergola and the structure itself and then finally uh providing seating underneath of the pergola so a a variety of seating as you can see here these cube benches which are stacked and people can sit on those in different ways um and then swing seats here you can see uh and and some examples of where that has been done so here is a plan view of how these elements are laid out so just for orientation sake on the left is Witherspoon Street the library is at the top of the screen uh the Witherspoon Grill and christines are are located here Spring Street Garage uh and Spring Street is at the bottom of the page so um a couple things that I'd like to point out and then we'll look at some perspective images which will maybe make this a little bit more clear but the perimeter Paving that we mentioned that take on that that Witherspoon paver and and carry it through you can see here at the bottom this is Witherspoon Street bringing those pavers along the perimeter um to the the entrance to the garage and then around to Spring Street uh and then also at the top as you can you can see here and then the infill paving um that highlights the plaza itself being larger pavers in the Middle with with a distinct pattern uh and again the bringing the the entire Plaza the pavement Edge right to Witherspoon street so right up to the curb where we have uh a planted buffer that could be some kind of green infrastructure some kind of planting there that buffers the pl a little bit from the street uh within that um planted buffer if if so desired there could be located uh there could be um ballards or or larger Boulders if there was a concern over safety but typically in a Plaza in a situation like this a raised curb is is considered effective but again we have that planted buffer there could be more done there uh if so desired uh the only fixed elements in the plaza I'll point out um which you can see labeled in Orange would be this uh platform seating stage located here and it's located right in front of the blank wall of the library so um on either side is the the you know the main entrance to the library here and then the community doors here um so we didn't want to block the entrances and and exits from the library and the rooms there um and then this Gateway feature bench here which you can see everything else is movable so everything else tables and chairs umbrellas are are movable and not fixed um and obviously the pergola is fixed and and the seating underneath of it uh the other thing I'd like to just point out while we're here is um these bike racks that are located um at the edge of Witherspoon Street and then also um up here towards the uh garage entrance and then off the page we have another slide to show this um the reloc located Gates I'm just oops didn't mean to do that um which I'm highlighting with the mouse right now so putting those in in a more prominent um place especially as you cross uh the street to get to um to get to the plaza or as you're coming down you see them as well so this is a diagram just showing what some of those improvements at the entry points uh of the plaza could be so this is coming out of the Spring Street Garage if you if you park on this side um carrying those Witherspoon papers around and potentially having an engraved Granite pav that speaks to Hines Plaza in some way shape or form uh to really Mark and denote uh the entrance and the and the beginning of that Plaza uh and then potentially uh some kind of signage wayf finding kiosk that could be located there that gives information that information can be you know anything from institutions and destinations in town to to local businesses that kind of thing and then similar treatment when you go to the Spring Street side um bringing those pavers around bringing the engra uh engraved Granite pavers and then uh new bike racks to again uh have a consistent entrance so this is a aerial perspective uh this is Witherspoon Street you can see the library in the background here the Spring Street um buildings uh on the on the right side here so I'll I'll just point out a few things uh here you can see the the planted buffer uh on the edge of of Spring Street you can see the relocated Gates uh Spring Street Witherspoon Street um you can see the relocated Gates here um benches along uh along this Edge and then here's that uh sort of feature bench again the design of that is something that can can obviously change but uh just the idea of having something that really announces the name of the plaza very visible and that could incorporate the plaques that are currently in the paving now um bringing them up so that you can actually see them uh a little bit more prominently and then in the background here you can see the the seating platform uh which is located again in front of that blank wall on either side of the doors into the library this sculptural seating which again can there's a million things that can be where showing these tulip chairs these are also movable um and then tables and chairs in the middle one of the one of the important things we felt uh when we were looking at this was really opening up a space where when these events occur when tents are set up when different things are are put into the plaza the plaza can accommodate it right now the trees and the location of them really prohibit and limit uh what you're able to do so we wanted to provide the the trees and the canopy but in a way that still allowed more flexibility to the plaza um you can see these tall um poles here are area lights that would light up the plaza um and then located throughout the plaza would be trash and recycling um receptacles uh and then you could see the pergola here on on the right I'm just going to go to a different view maybe I should have done this before but this just makes the trees a little bit more transparent so you could really see what's going on so you can see where the light fixtures are you can see the two fixed elements the these um benches and and the seating platform and then just how much more space you gain that you could program this is the again the same view and what we're highlighting here is a a modular suspended pavement system that would be utilized to really give a better condition to the trees and when when we plant them um really we're trying to make sure that uh the soil that the trees are in isn't compacted that really is what affects the health uh of of the tree and the longevity of the tree so this system would help um uh make sure that there's a cavity that can handle the soil and and it wouldn't get compacted so this view drops down onto Witherspoon street so you get a better view of one of you know the crossing across Withers Street the relocated um Gates bike rack the pergola with the projecting signage um pointing out the two retail establishments there uh the seating that gets incorporated into the pergola with the uh artwork um you can see the movable tables and chairs with with the umbrellas in the background um this Gateway feature here again highlighting the namesake of the plaza we'll step we step back into the plaza Mo now we're looking straight at the library on the right is Christine's and the Witherspoon Grill uh this is showing that uh 20ft uh designated outdoor dining space um and this Alay of trees with movable tables and chairs underneath to take advantage of the shade um and then to the left you see again that blank wall and the and the um seating platform in front of it um yeah I'm so sorry to interrupt but okay these these trees all just look so amazing these are like and the last picture showed trees all the way to the top of the apartment building I mean like these are are these new trees you're going to plant that are this amazing propos prop new trees and oh go ahead and in addition to the so you're going to keep the trees we have no so you're getting rid of all the trees we have correct yes so those trees like I mentioned in the beginning the existing trees the the the town arborist has inspected them the health of them they're in Decline and have reached the end of their lifespan so unfortunately they're not they're not uh we can't keep them um it wouldn't make much sense as the you could you could see the canopy is already starting to um you know go away basically because the trees are flagging um so they would be all new trees and Michelle is the shade tree Commission on board with this um we'll talk to them about it but obviously it's going to be the same situation I mean if they don't have the um cells underneath and they don't have the sub you know whatever the substrat is that they need um they can't you know they can't survive and and this is this is a problem I think that we're becoming more aware of and that's why when we build this like the last slide showed we can build this infrastructure to really give them the health that they need CU these would be gorgeous and nice and full and if you look at the ones that are there now they're not very full so can we I'm sorry yeah why don't we finish the presentation I'm Clos then we'll ask all the questions I just was just was wondering I like I didn't remember the trees looking like that right um and and then just the last rendering we we kind of move over into the into the plot and looking looking at the library entrance here you see the sculptural seating uh that could be used you know as an outdoor reading room that kind of thing uh the stage here uh that could be used for events on a daily basis people uh just sitting on it and and using it um and that's it so I was I was close oh very good I was trying to hit the 15minute mark thanks I yeah we we'll we'll just run down the the row I know I've got 13 multi-part questions myself but so um thank you I I just want to point out some of the some of the advantages I really like extending it all the way out to the curb where when you're walking through you're walking down wither spoon you're actually walking in the plaza it's just it's an integrated feeling and it just opens things up and gives a lot more space I love the flexibility I also really like the walkway all the way around and the walk around through the LA um and all of the shad that that would give um for dining uh both against the building but also all the tables that could be placed under there um I like cleaning out the Wisteria um and opening that pergola area up and then you know I just want to mention to you know I think that we really went with this design recommendation because it integrates the library where the library can have like their community room if it's open air they can open their doors and come right out if they're having an event it just integrates and flows and that little seating area could be like people you know picking up a book and reading so it has a really nice feel to it but also I think naturally um up against uh having that platform stage there which is not very high it's just like a bench people can sit on um but it can also be a stage and that's where naturally we've had we always have our stage there I mean all the events so um I think they've done a great job of integrating all these elements so um uh yeah that's my my comment from right now okay uh thanks your presentation answered a lot of my questions so I'll cut down from what was it 18 and a half to to nine or so um so you know one of my concerns was at the plaques you know it clearly had been labeled as Hines Plaza but I'm thrilled to know that the plaques will be reused because it's not enough to just have the name we need to you know emphasize who who the plaza is named after um so I would I have I would urge you to uh confer directly with uh the library if possible about where the outdoor stage is and it it seems that could be somewhat flexible and just make sure with them that that is not something that will uh disrupt their programming on the other side um I don't know under what category uh this is but um there are massive numbers of birds that nest in that uh pergola in the wisteria and I guess I don't know if we bring in the Animal control officer or something like that is there a better time of year to prune that back so that we're not whatever I don't know what species they are but so we're minimizing the you know there may be nests in there in the spring just I I'm not this is not my area of expertise but just to consult with uh with with somebody about that whether it's aabon or the Animal control officer about how do we minimize the the damage on the the bird population there um so again this may some of my uh questions again that the flexibility on the on the Plaza I think which you've emphasized over and over again which was not clear from when I was looking at this by myself so I really appreciate that because I think that is uh you know really something so many different events are held there so many not only the library but other organizations uh use that as well so that flexibility is key and I think we have to be really careful about where the trees are planted that they don't interfere with uh you know a couple of big events that set up tents there and I know you specifically mentioned that and obviously I'm not in a position to judge you know the the lines of the tent based on on these drawings but just to uh make sure that the the trees don't interfere with you know our ability to to use the Plaza the way we are now um so just to confirm de or Jim is 20 feet the agreed upon extension for Witherspoon G Grill and christines is that what their contract 20 8 in but it's not a contract yet it has to come back to council yeah I I would say on that though the original thought was that we would not grant that much but it was felt on based on the existing trees that it made sense to extend to the 20 feet 8 Ines and the last discussion we had as a group it was more like 18 and 1/2 ft but that created a dead area between the little fence they have up and the trees so anyway since this is still a concept plan we can still play with it so whether I would say it's about 20 ft because it might be a little less or it might be a few inches more but okay all right uh thanks so these may be um elements that uh again we we are this is maybe premature to bring it up but I had a couple of concerns uh I wanted to be sure that there was at least as much seating as there currently is hopefully more so there's more excellent I did not I did not count the little chairs um and um also concerned about shade uh you had mentioned that you know obviously climate change and everything so I see shade um you know on the right with the larger tables but I wonder if there's some uh provision for adding more shade in the central part of the plaza that um looks like uh would not get uh very much I know there'll be shade around uh I mean there'll be trees around the uh the umbrella area but um I I don't know how uh possible it is to have uh shade available for the smaller tables or some of the smaller tables but if that is in the realm of the possible um I think again looking 10 20 years into the future we're probably going to going to want that because obviously it doesn't never rain again so we just need protection from the Sun um again I don't know how final a design is but there's a lot of orange in here well Orange Is the university color I think that that is not necessary we want to you know highlight just representational so okay excellent excellent um you know I then went and looked at our seon well it does have green and orange but maybe more green and you know maybe the libraryies red could be represented in some way so um and um again this may be two one major thing and one minor thing so what kinds of Provisions are we making for storm water runoff is there going to be any I know we we have the uh the the plantings on the side but what since we're redoing the plaza we might as well incorporate elements that will prevent pooling on there and I I don't know if you mentioned that and I I just didn't uh hear it or or if it hasn't been mentioned but um I think that that is uh something that you know that is imperative to make sure that the uh you know the plaza is is functional and the final really really small thing is that uh I think everybody knows this but we do not actually have public recycling containers because people do not actually know how to recycle uh so just want to make sure that you know I know that's a very minor detail but we need a lot of uh trash receptacles I love that the ones you showed were covered um we do have I hate to mention this but we do have rats in that area so whatever we can do to make those uh trash cans secure um and adequate so that they're not overflowing would be uh really great so that's all my comments thank you sort of a hodge podge no great am I allowed to respond to sure any of them um well just I think the storm water management one was the one that I wanted to just quickly respond to um so this Central infill Paving area again it's concept but we would we would recommend that that if this were um done as a permeable Paving set um then that any of that storm water can be taken into those silver cells which would uh obviously manage the storm water runoff but then also feed those trees so you're going to have trees that are much much more successful because you know right now what's happening is you have a tree grate it's got a couple areas where maybe some water could get through but that that ground gets so compacted that those trees aren't getting the water that they need so that was taken into consideration sorry I realized one thing I forgot I don't know if you've talked to the farmers market organization um I think and Michelle you're probably there more off more often than than I am I'm just wondering if some of the things we're thinking about for under the pergola might interfere with where those tables are but no actually I I think that I think that the um this would be a better setup for the farmers market and any of the tenting like you were asking for more shade but the idea of having the trees kind of more on the outskirts would then allow for things to be more centralized right now that's kind of a mish mash in between trees they manage but um this would give you know more more room so I I think it gives more flexibility actually yeah and we're trying to take advantage of the pergola which does provide some great shade and and provide more seating underneath of it so okay um I know the library did send us a list and there's a representative from the library here this evening but we'll make sure we send you the written list also just so you have it for reference yeah I have it sorry you got it already I do have it yeah okay cool good uh one of the one of the main things I'm worried about is safety and I I'm not a fan of thinking that a race curb is enough to stop an automobile from going onto the plaza because it actually isn't I mean we've had a it's been years but a car a driver had a medical incident hop the curb and ended up smashing into the uh into the building on the other side of the plaza uh coming off a whole fish street so I think we need to look at the um the rain Gardens and everything else and whatever's behind them and all of that has to be chosen installed in such a way that we're actually protecting people on The Plaza uh I think the most dangerous areas are going to be where the ramps are because that you know people are crazy and if I'm going to drive a car onto that Plaza I'm picking one of those ramps and driving right up there so anyway I think we need to pay a lot more attention as to how to make the plaza um as uh anti-car proof as possible um the Landscaping I I think the two rows of trees by the restaurants is is not going to work because over time the two rows of trees are too close together the trees are going to grow into each other and they're going to to infect each other's health and the trees are going to start to die and then we're going to wonder why we have so many trees that are so close together so I think we need to look at that a little better um you know we really got to look at what are those trees how large are they going to be 15 years down the road as opposed to day one I know everybody likes the trees on day one to look pretty and isn't that great but got a plan for the future as opposed to how they look on day one I the pergula I just think is such a wall to the couple businesses behind them and I don't know how I don't think a sign there on that column is going to achieve what we need to achieve to engage those stores with the plaza anyway just a personal opinion so if there's more we could do there you know to me if I'm looking over there and I see a swinging bench a swinging bench a bench on the ground level and whatever by the time I get to where the stores are in my mind I've already seen a wall so I I I fear that we are not going to address add the concerns that those businesses have had ever since we built the plaza um I'll Echo Eve on the whole shade thing I think we've created a very large hot area in the middle of the plaza the scattered trees that we have now I think are a better option for shade because you get more shade through a larger area of the plaza we're going to have a very hot area in the center of that Plaza and I can see people moving those chairs and tables out of there trying to find somehow to get under the trees or closer to the trees uh so anyway I rethink the tree plan myself uh let's see here and then slide 11 showed a cluster I said a cluster of tents am I correct or am I just seeing um I think you're referring to the umbrellas that are here maybe okay so knowing that we going to worry about the umbrell is not blowing away on a windy day so I assume there's going to be some heavy weight at the bottom they're going to be attached to that some somehow how easily are we going to be able to move those tables and umbrellas again just a thought MH I know for my umbrella I have on my patio in my backyard I got 100 pound weight at the bottom of it not real easy to move trust me um the struct uh the sculptural seating I am a polite way to put it not a fan of that at all a it's fixed which I know you said hey maybe fixed furnish Furnishing isn't the way to go I would definitely say it isn't um no he he said that it was not fixed the sculptural seating so the the up here the sculptural seating is not fixed the only two fixed items are the the stage here and then this sort of bench here if they're not fixed how do they stand up I'll show you the picture you see these large plates yeah that's how they stand up so in Somerville you all right those AR bolts around the corn around like the circle at the base those aren't bolts so in this image on the left those are bolted B to the ground the image on the right they're not bolted to the ground so if you go to Somerville you can see that it's plates and you can move them okay all right I'd be concerned about the weight but I'd also say I think that's a pretty much stage photo where people are told to smile because I can't believe that those seats are comfortable but I'll go to Somerville one day and I'll let you know um The Umbrellas shown at the restaurant seating are just for illustrative purposes the restaurants would be providing all that furniture not us right okay thanks um and jumping on the whole trash recycling thing it is amazing that people can't figure out the word recycle means recycle so they fill trash into the recycling things but my my gut is that the recycl the trash recycling containers are too small uh there's a lot of people that use this Plaza and a lot of people eat there and they just create a lot of trash so I think we need to have a robust uh system for trash there uh very happy to hear the infill paving the steering committee thought the larger papers make the most sense I would agree definitely not brick and not the smaller ones the larger the better uh I think hopefully a little easier to keep clean perimeter Paving extending it down the sides nice idea same color different color is there a way to do a a delays over it or do something because obviously we're having a problem keeping the the current pay caving all up and down weather spoon Street clean so I don't want to I prefer us not to extend the same problem onto both sides of H Plaza sorry different color or different something something that complements it maybe not exactly the same but and then and I'm sorry and overall let me just say this I I really appreciate the whole effort here and I appreciate that we're thinking about redoing the plaza because it obviously needs a refresh so thank you for all the ideas and unfortunately it's easier for me with my facilities background to go Jesus what the heck are we thinking about this that and the other thing but overall thank you thank you thank you appreciate it thank you yeah man um but I would say this the lighting I'm really concerned that the lighting poles appear to be right on the edges of trees and as the trees grow I'm concerned that the lighting is going to not really be effective uh over time I'm almost done the orange tables seem was too small to me because people that come there seem to like eat people are spreading out or people have got their laptops out and papers so I think all the small tables are not that advantageous uh possibly and then I would just Echo well maybe it hasn't been said yet I know it's on the libraries list bike racks bike racks bike racks I I mean the amount of people that bike there so there's got to be a balance between we don't want bikes left there for a month at a time versus just people that are there each day need places to put their bikes other than that thank you very much for listening to me I appreciate your time thank you next I just going to run down the yeah go ahead if you got stuff and we'll just keep on I I was just going to say Mark I think you have a future as a as a design consultant yeah I I I ditto I I actually agree with all of that and my first thought was security uh and I thought it was actually um consider you know I thought it was sort of U um diur these days when you're designing a plaza that you have to have some security barriers to make sure that people don't drive in with a with a big bomb in the back of their truck and blow up your Plaza um maybe that hasn't made its way out to the suburbs yet but I'm sure it will soon so I think we should have it some something because I have no doubt that I mean we we most of the uh demonstrations that happen in in Central in the Central Jersey and larger area now are all at Hines Plaza and I and I do think um you know the times that we're in uh would warrant us building in some sort of security barrier barrier there in an aesthetically pleasing way um uh I agree I'm embarrassed to say mark that I actually did not know there were any businesses entrances there behind the pergola so clearly something needs to be done there um I agree about the trees need to be better spread out um the I agree about the different color on the perimeter lighting good point I also was thinking the tables seem very small and also agree on more bike racks and and um sorry I'm plagiarizing everything you said Mark but I I don't have anything I just more than that other than yes thank you I'm I'm really excited I it's unfortunate that on our watch it seems that so we so many of the trees are ending their life cycle and and I just have one question like until the tree how long will it be until the trees look as beautiful as they do in some of these pictures so you know you could take one of the uh methods you could choose is if you do the silver cells or the modular suspended Paving system you could come in with a larger tree because you're you're bringing in new soil so you can start off with a larger tree that's more mature so you're not waiting a long time uh for it to reach a height and and it you know get where you'd want it to be to make an impact in the plaza so that would be great yeah thank you just those are a lot more expensive sorry the bigger trees are a lot more expens there's a cost yeah but few obviously but thank you so uh I don't have uh too many I'm sure that you will take into consideration the comments you heard and look forward to seeing um a a new uh uh another presentation of taking into consideration those comments I just had an observation that uh I I'm not sure if it was already done I didn't see it in the presentation whether the movement of the gates uh whether you consulted with uh individuals in the community who were instrumental in having those Gates erected uh that would surely saterfield comes to mind uh because something that stands out to me regarding those Gates one um you know I think I know I personally would be concerned about whether having um the trash cans next to those Gates might be uh disrespectful of the what those uh Gates represent and also because uh I know in in years past it's been an issue uh when we have seen uh the gates being used as bike racks which is again disrespectful and so having them next to the bike racks might invite some more um more of that so it's just something that I think I I would would like to be taken into consideration not just input from if it wasn't already done input from uh members of the community who are instrumental in having those uh Gates placed in honor of Mr Hines but also uh take into consideration what's NE what's going to be next to them that's all thank you L yeah uh my colleague just said it let's be clear and I have been in these meetings in the steering committee and every one of these meetings I have made it a point Michelle to talk about that this is the Albert Hines Plaza but we've been here for 20 or 30 minutes talking about the Albert Hines Plaza we've heard about the pergola uh the trees we've heard about everything with the exception of the gates with the exception of this is the Albert hin Plaza with the exception of the entrance to the alah plaza with the exception of this Plaza was named after alah hin because it was in respect to the history of the African-American community in Princeton no when we going to talk about that no no I it's rare that I do this but the gates were mentioned it was talked about the Gates still being there and I thought it was mentioned that the plaques were still going to be there it was with all du respect mayor it was softly mentioned but but that I'll take softly mentioned with all due respect but this is the Albert hin Plaza yep am I wrong or am am I right okay so so what about the gates what about the entrance can somebody talk to me about how we're going to recognize and anoint Albert Hines and African-American history in Princeton when we do this redo of his Plaza that's named after him can I hear a little bit more about that sure yeah I I I apologize I didn't think I softly mentioned it I I I mentioned the relocation of the gates to a hopefully more of a prominent location the plaques in a more prominent location this uh feature bench here displaying the name of the plaza uh and having those plaques on them so they come off the ground and are more visible um at the at the two entrances um from the garage and the Spring Street side locating the name uh in the paving here so that again it's it's called to mind that on on these entrances to the uh to the plaza um and you know even though it was just representational um the art wraps that we showed are the quilts from the the the gates we used just to communicate that this should be public art um so that calls into remembrance uh Albert Hines the namesake of the plaza so uh those are some of the things that I had uh tried to point out so hopefully that's a little more clear now I I I can spend more time on no I I thank you for that explanation sure but again you know this is the alheim plaza and if if we are going to do our due diligence in Princeton we have already named this Plaza the Albert Hines Plaza and if we're going to do a presentation about a redo of this Plaza then first and foremost should really be the acknowledgment of the plaza and who it was named after and why it was named after that individual and and and I think that's important and what I want to see is is much more I I want to see this Plaza scream about the history of African-Americans in this town cuz that's why we named it after Albert Hines that's what I would like to see thank you than Le um okay I I have a couple comments all right go ahead a couple comments and just to wrap up I I think to your point and you know we we kind of SK we did skim over and say you know there's public art opportunity here there's public art opportunity here we talked about the gates but you know that public art opportunity is an opportunity to make this scream about the about Albert hin so I mean I think that we can't Define that now but we are working on a public art program I think this timing and tying into that could really be brilliant I mean you know there's the WAP there's the wall there's a lot of opportunity here you know for for more creative minds than mine and maybe um you know others so um so I think that we definitely should pursue that um I I just I wanted just to wrap up a couple of the points though so that we have a little bit of clarity for for for James and staff of what next steps would be um I certainly think a lot of good points were brought up uh we should talk to the police Department about the security issues and what we can do there absolutely great uh great point I think we need to talk further with our arborist and look at the trees and make sure we're not planting too close together um because you know it's nice to have the shade areas but we don't you know we need to make sure we understand you know maybe they can only go to a certain height they need to be trimmed they need to stay you know they they can only go so far I will mention too that I've already been talking to the pbac about helping us with bike racks because we have two types of bike racks we want transient visitor bike racks that are out here in the front but we need to also figure out bike parking for those tenants and people that are longer term parking that could be more like in the garage or in the um Alleyways um so we are going to work on that uh they've created a little subp group and so we're going to uh work on that area and um you know so really a lot of good good things um you know mixing the size of tables and the types of chairs and all that I think you know we can we can look at all that it's all you know it's all doable um but I I think it's really good and of course let's talk to the library and make sure that we um you know everybody's on the same page so great thank you Kim I know that we have the written list from the library but you're here do you want to come up make comments in addition to what was already been said and just when you get to the microphone just identify yourself for the records over the minutes we know who you are uh good evening everyone my name is Kim Dorman um I'm here I I live on Patton Avenue in Princeton and I thank you all for all of your comments and feedback and for the work that you've done to uh try and reimagine what uh hein's Plaza could look like my first reaction is that the public is losing considerable public space as we have been since uh covid uh which you know I understand I guess like I like outdoor seating I don't eat in restaurants if they don't provide outdoor seating so I appreciate that uh both Witherspoon and uh Christine's offer that but it is coming over public space uh what seems to me you I couldn't really understand the whole Plaza do do we need to put the timer on I don't want to overgo I couldn't understand the design of how you had all the trees until somebody pointed out that it's symmetrical if you're looking at it from Griggs lot parking lot it just didn't really make sense to me they seem to be sort of put in the middle of nowhere I sort of think of that La of trees as the Privacy barrier now and that's even losing more space on the Plaza privacy barrier for the uh restaurants it's got an LA that goes to Nowhere although I do recognize it goes towards the community room those doors are mostly closed um so it doesn't make sense to me um I the stage as somebody who you know I'm not speaking on behalf of the library the library who submitted comments um but it's somebody who does work in the area who lives in town is on that Plaza almost every day um and who sees the various uses of the plaza that is stage is going to be a big inhibitor uh nice things I can say I have a few more things um Kim what was the I'm sorry I if you could just speak a little louder your comments are excellent but I can't hear everything and what was the last comment get very very close to the to the mic the just the last comment I didn't hear that uh what was my last comment oh the stage as somebody who spends a lot of time on the Plaza and spends a lot of time working on the Plaza it's going to inhibit the work the library does which I'm not I said I'm not speaking on behalf of the library but also I just don't see it as being useful um for other uses really uh at least as a stage if more seating area okay it's going to inhibit our use or other uses but um I like the green spots that you have although as they've pointed out they might not be safe um there's a sense that the plaza is being extended but really it's just visually because you can't use the sidewalk space um so we're just narrowing the usable space in the center that's going to be very hot um and then I did also want to say that I do think there is a lost opportunity to celebrate water here and to recognize the land I think I've mentioned this before um this was brought to us in our collaborations with um an upcoming event with the Muny Stockbridge Muny um coming in and there's like real interest in the fact that there has been water there and then how how can like where the garage is and how can we recognize that um and I learned today actually that when it was originally conceived that there was pipes I believe according to Pat mcavan our building manager pipes that went from the garage to water the trees um so I don't know if there is some way that we can just recognize the past history of the land um I think that that would be nice and the other thing that I like are these swings um uh and I did want to call out uh just I was reminded of it when Leighton and every Laticia were mentioning Albert Hines and I know that you did mention it in your thing I appreciated that you had moved the gates um I do think that Shirley saterfield and others should be brought into the conversation since there was a lot of thought put into the placement of those um but there is the plaque that is currently on the ground I'm not sure if it's in one or two places two two places on the Plaza um I was at I think I've said this before at a conference in Camden and someone said oh yeah I took my students to see those plaques on Hines Plaza and we all notice that they're on the ground so princ donian can walk on them and I was like oh so if we are doing something about the sign I'd like to propose that it not be on the ground I think I'll close my comments there the rest have been submitted um from the library um but I would I would like to not lose so much space for the public it's not just for the library is what I kept pointing out thank Kim okay any other questions or comments yeah I'd like to comment on first I want to thank Kim dorm and my pal for being here and for speaking up tonight and I would like to revisit and rethink the whole uh issue of paying homage to the lening of napi and days ago with the water that was really on Spring Street and if and I and I you know this ain't coming out from the clear blue because I have had a talk with Deana about this if there is some way where we as a Municipality of Princeton could dig down right in the where people are sitting in in Hines Plaza there is water underneath of there and I don't know if it's possible or not but if we could pay amage to the Lenny lenapi and and the water that is underneath of Spring Street which really speaks to all of our Collective history wouldn't that be a magnificent thing and also ackn colge uh Albert Hines to really drill down on our history as uniqu as unique as it is with everything that we have here in Princeton I don't know if that's possible but again if we're going to be redeveloping all of Hines Plaza is it it all everything should be on the table everything should be looked at for us to do the best job that we can for the next 50 years here in Princeton we shouldn't sleep on the opportunities that exist here to recognize our deep and unique history both in Indian American history and in African American history thank you thanks L okay oh e just really quick I mean if I'm not mistaken the other two diagrams uh not the the one that is uh is called uh engaging the library but the other two uh do have a a water feature and I it looks like it says flush fountain that was something that we had discussed early on but looking at cost and maintenance and that kind of thing it had it had uh been discussed that maybe it's you know cost prohibitive I hear you okay we could always look at it we could always look at what the I mean we're pumping water out from under the garage or around the garage every day but maybe we can uh put a sprinkler on the end of that and uh it can water the trees just broken okay I think we're we've covered everything we need to cover on this one it works is there I I don't know I can't on my screen I can't see the before um all right anybody in the room that wants to add a comment to this that's pretty much you Eric no okay great just in case anybody on Zoom I can't um Adam can you see on Zoom if anybody has a hand up I can't there is a hand we do have one hand all right let's bring Felicia in hi can you hear me oh yes we can just just Felicia if you just identify yourself for the minutes sure Felicia Spitz uh five Haslet Avenue um I'm actually going to put my political hat on and say one of the things I was concerned about is um it appears that we would lose our standard tabling location um which we do annually um and I know that we're not the only organization that that tables in the plaza but um if some consideration could be put toward maintaining space for activity like that um I know we would certainly appreciate it that's all thank you thank you okay let's just work our way down the line pretty quick I think Michael is next Michaela yep go ahead sorry yes Michael Floyd 64 Harris Road um I agree with some of the other comments regarding uh the hot spots cated whatever but the only new comment I have I have a concern about the uh uh the benches that are proposed to be added and whether they might be too low for a lot of the population that uses um the plaset itself so you know a lot of times those benches are lower than a regular chair height y that's my concern thank you Michael good point okay uh next is Jennifer who can speak officially for the library hi can you hear me yes we can uh Jennifer pulski executive director um of the library I don't want to take up too much time thank you all for your comments and for including the library in your design um so prominently we really appreciate that and I thank himim for offering uh her remarks um I just want to clarify a few things um one we we mentioned the sculptural seating and the cluster of trees um they they they appear to be in the design as they they may be obscuring the the sight line a bit from Witherspoon street so if someone's trying to find the library it appears that it may be blocking signage and blocking that front door uh quite a bit um and you know of course we want to make sure there's no accessibility issues there um in regards to the sculpture seating I I was thinking with Mark was saying is that how are they not going to fall down I trust you I will go to Somerville and sit in them also but I do know is from a practical standpoint when when things happen out in the Plaza Library staff have to go out and maintain it a bit and and that concerns me with umbrellas you know we don't have umbrellas now and if we did someone would have to store them and put them up and put them down and so there are some practical things we'd have to talk about um but we we are a bit concerned about the the sight line and people finding the library because it is a destination we have almost 2,000 people a day coming um and we want them to be able to to locate it um I also want to mention in regards to events um one uh as Kim mentioned the reduction of the plaza I I do appreciate that you thought about the tenting of some of our various events um but we have to remember that you know for instance our children's book Festival we take up the entire Plaza now so that means that the restaurants actually move their tables for us so um with that in mind thinking about it that way uh cuz that is the how it used to be and we still do have uh events that we would we like to use the entire Plaza and we can fill the entire Plaza up with visitors and we wouldn't be able to do those events at all with this current design or they'd be significantly shrunken um considering the the two rows of trees as pretty as they look um so that's one thing um and I just wanted to lastly just mention about the stage and again that sounds it's such a lovely thought to put the stage there and from a seating perspective it might be nice but I do think it may be a bit of an obstacle uh the library has a stage that we app portable one that we bring out um so that we have the maximum flexibility with our programs um but I'm thinking of something like dancing Under the Stars which brings hundreds of people to the plaza for four months out of the year on Friday night and um that stage would be in the way and and some of the other features so um I'd love to continue the conversation um thank you for uh listening to uh our feedback we appreciate it thanks Jennifer okay we've worked our way through all the comments thanks again you're welcome thank you can I say one more thing oh I'm sorry am I yeah go um so I just also um you know I wanted to Echo my Michael's concerns like about accessibility it really didn't look like um people who need things with armchairs to stand up are going to be able to use the space and a lot of people it just none of the furniture from what I could see seemed that accessible um also as somebody who spends a lot of time moving the furniture around on the Plaza for a variety of reasons um you know like lifting those chairs all the sculp cural chairs and and just you know I sometimes find that designers think everything looks great but you're not the one who's like picking it up and moving it multiple time so I'm just curious like how movable is movable um and those were my last two comments thanks thanks K okay I think we've exhausted it so thank you very much for your thank you your listening to us and your patience appreciate it thank you thank you all right looks like we have two work session items the first is a work session for the removal and replacement of Nassau Street kiosk boy oh boy you really picked the good ones this is one where everyone will agree immediately I think you guys are raring to go now right here we go okay just get me into the presentation okay did you get a back up I don't know what happened to my screen okay well you may have to look at my screen this way CU I may not be able to do the slideshow let's try one more time technolog is great when it works all right well here we go close enough good evening um thank you for having this work session tonight as a part of the nasau streetcape project we will be impacting the existing kiosks on NASA Street at Washington or at the van dender intersection and the Witherspoon intersection um so we are looking for for feedback from Council right now I can't get my slide to advance um just a minute bear with me please okay here we go sorry about that um so the original kiosks were built as phone booths and newspaper vending boxes back in the late 1980s and you want to bring the phone booth back we do not what it is kind of a clever idea with the newspaper boxes I have to say um but currently they are home to many various different Flyers uh Public Works comes through once a month and removes all of the Flyers and does any necessary repairs to the kiosks at that time I think it's been a few years since we've done any major work at the kiosks um so with the NASA Street skate project which is to replace all of the sidewalk material um under the kiosks we need some feedback from Council the first question is does council support the removal of the existing kiosks to allow us to do the nasau streetscape sidewalk work next year okay so we'll answer that question first correct okay well we you know what I'm sorry we're going to start at this end this time and work our way down there we go sorry I'll speak into the mic I'm going to listen to what the rest of my colleagues have to say I I think I expressed my opinions a few years ago and um I'm going to and I'm I'm open to um EV to my opinions evolving I'll just say that I was opposed to removing them a few years ago but um I'm going to listen to what everybody else has to say I think the one at with uspon and N all needs to to go it's too narrow there it interferes with people walking on the sidewalk the one at vaner and Nassau I am actually more in favor of having something there and not removing it totally I'm personally in favor of removing them I guess the concern is do we owe it to the is this a are we in some way suppressing free speech I know some of what's posted is commercial some of it is more about events going on I just um I guess I I'd like to hear my my colleagues weigh in on whether are we diminishing community in some way by getting rid of this as a way to promote and exchange events uh going on I mean I think they're hideously ugly and I'd love to move to a a digital display the digital display of course is then under our control and it ceases to be a place for the public to interact so I guess kind of like like Mia I'd like to hear what what others uh have to say about that and I never have any strong opinions of on this uh yes absolutely we should remove them um they are an eyesore they're a mess after storms there's paper all over over they're not even environmentally friendly because of the paper that's used up um and I do think that there are electronic kiosk um options that will allow for the information of events and and and things that are happening in town that the a lot of it and I look at it all the time a lot of what's on there is already up on the internet I mean you can find this information it'll be much more environmentally friendly and you know we we have that information those information resources so but I think the first step is to say yes let's remove them and then secondly let's see what the options are for something electronic okay I'm sorry hand up mayor we have an obligation to provide affordable housing to people in Princeton by based on the uh affordable housing language that judge Jacobson approved we we are not obligated to give people a uh a kiosk in our downtown area to make a mockery and a and and and create you havoc and and and paperwork all over the place for people to get the word out for their individual efforts and and and and and interest they there there's all kinds of ways that they can do that with social media that is not our obligation and we need not create a havoc and and in a eyesore in our downtown area where people got to walk through and step over trash that that is other people's uh agendas is is it's let's get rid of it and and let's don't take a lot of time to do it I I'd prefer to discuss this for two hours myself yeah right no I'm with you l i I didn't know that we were also responding to question two but I did say yes remove them but I would like to see some options of how we could replace them with something that's more modern functional and can um inform us our community as to uh events taking place okay can I okay I think we're I think we're I think we're good can I can I just say one thing oh I'm sorry I'm Sor and I and I I know that I just want to say like we're not going to talk tonight about what's going to be replaced but there is with the existing kiosk the free Marketplace of ideas and anyone can post there is a you know I am sort of a free speech absolutist and and the public is free to express their opinions on those on the kiosk once we remove it and we go to an electronic option the government is in charge of who can express what idea and this this is what concerns me and I know that we didn't want to get into that tonight because for sure we would be here for two hours but I just want to say that it's not an um it's not an innocuous value-free decision that we're making by removing them we're we're basically making the decision for we as the government to decide who is who can express what we and and that's a big we're then going to have to embark on on that which you know does have serious implications so I just want us to acknowledge this is not a totally value neutral free decision that's what I said but Mia said it's so much better no I actually thought you said it much better than I did but maybe we just built on one another so um anyway just let's acknowledge that that's what we're doing and we have some big decisions about how we will then handle what replaces it unless it just doesn't have any messaging at all it just why don't we so let let let me ask you this based on what appears to be most people being okay okay with these things disappearing I assume they will not actually disappear until you come back with some here are some alternates and once we see the alternates then we'd be in a better position to make a final decision is that a safe assumption that's two questions as Jim just pointed out and as as I've put in this presentation the first question is can we literally remove what is there so that we can construct sidewalk improvements this next question question two is do you support replacing the kiosks in some form whether it's digital whether it's still analog whether it's a combination of the two do you support putting something back and then I think that begs the question later on does it have to be in those locations as the mayor alluded to so so the first question really is to allow for construction can we remove what's there well in view of leighton's request that we do not spend two hours on this which I wholeheartedly agree with I would say it's hard to and people can jump and tell me I'm nuts but I think it's hard to give you a steadfast yes or no on the first one without knowing what the alternates are to replace it without knowing what what happens if we build the streetcape around the one say at van dender in Nassau is the concrete under there in such bad shape that it's going to fall into the Earth three days after we finish the Nassau Street streetscapes and we don't have the answers to the questions we asked the last time we talked about the nassal street Scapes so I would be hard to understand that this decision has to be made tonight because we don't have the answers to those other questions I just referred to and we need those before the project can go to go forward I think that's pretty damn accurate based on what we said the last time go ahead Michelle I'm surprised you're making it more complicated because I think that the the first question is to remove them and whether or not we replace them would be a second question that we we bring back when we have more information and some presentations I mean there's a lot of electronic kiosk options there's a lot of options in what kind of content that they would have and there's a lot of options of where they would be I'm not even sure that the corner of Witherspoon in nassa isn't conducive to having anything there it's already overcrowded I think so I mean I think for tonight's purposes it's 9:15 I think that engineering um is bringing us that danan is bringing us a question and number one is I just don't there's no value to have keeping what we have there it's a mess let's say I say let's say yes to that and let's have a followup with some other options for what we may or may not do right but it's not cond it's not contingent on keeping them or not keeping them if we're not going to keep them okay but let's look at this from a practical point of view you're not going to construct anything if you think you might put something back because you're going to have to know what you're going to construct and whether you need conduit or whatever to go under the sidewalk in order to do it so even if they were to be removed you can't do that streetcape work until you know what you're putting in well so I this is kind of a I don't know it's kind of like a game we're playing here so well I I'll just say that because I did some research with you know Dean and staff and also with experienced Princeton on kiosks and you can pop them in pretty much anywhere that you can you know put electricity so it's not like I don't think one's conducive to the other yeah and in terms of the infrastructure that's needed um if it's not part of the bid set that goes out in January for construction it can be an add-on um a change order to the contract or we know that yes we want a kiosk and we want it to have like uh electricity and um internet capability then that's already built in that can be built into the contract documents and then the location is TBD all right so so we could we could have a provision for that in the contract documents um if I can why don't we just go through the questions maybe because well I'm going to say this cuz I think since seeing the discussion we're having on the first question I'd rather then have a motion in a second and we actually vote on it okay because this is not this is not an official action of the body this is all we're rendering opinions and now somebody's going to take action based on a bunch of opinions and we didn't actually vote on it so I want to tie this vote this body down so nobody comes back later and says because we haven't talked about the whole free speech thing I don't think we need to worry about it at all but a couple I make a motion that we uh that we remove the two existing kiosks there you go you got the second Michelle okay any I hope not any other I mean I hope not any other further questions mayor any other further questions I'm having a little difficulty hearing can you tell me what just yeah the motion was to remove both kios both existing kios the one at Nassau and Weatherspoon and the one at nassal and vaner okay and we're voting on that now yeah yeah I was just going to make sure there was no other comments or questions first okay there are none okay I'm going to be surprised by this how many are in favor of that that's so amazing how you guys were just worried about free speech and now you just like get rid of okay the motion passes that question is done that we needed to I just want to be clear we just voted to remove those but we have not voted on what if anything we will replace them with correct not yet yes so we're all fine with that because next question does council support replacing the kiosks in some form we can't answer that I I mean how can you I that then we're getting into the two-hour discussion yeah no no she no she's not asking what do you want to replace it with but will you consider replacing it with something you might say no or you might say show me the 10 options and I'll pick one of them yeah okay so let's do it again I'm sorry Eve are you making another motion no no go ahead ahead okay go Ahad you have a question you want no I was just going to say I mean let's just let's just take can we can't we table that to just say that we're going to bring that back with some options I mean we don't even know where we would want them because if we say replace them then we're saying we're going to replace them and I'm not in favor of replacing it Nassau and Witherspoon I don't think that's a good I don't think that's what the question to like do we want something that we can convey information yes can we well I we don't know Eve because if it depends we might have it depends on who's in control of that information and the way in which it's conveyed I mean I think we're really going to get ourselves into trouble if we try to reach an agreement on question two we just successfully reached consensus on question one and that was difficult enough I think we are really overreaching di do you need an answer to question to tonight not tonight very tomorrow okay the lon they were asking do we need an do we have to answer question number two which was would we um possibly be in favor of replacing the current koses with some other form of kiosk in the future and the answer is we don't have to answer it tonight so you can render an opinion or we could just move on you but you decide what you want to do there you go all I all I know is I'm in favor of getting rid of the kiosk that we now have I'm I'm I'm confirmed that 100% sure to answer the question do I support replacing the kiosk in some form not necessarily I I I I could not replace them at all quite frankly but that's my qu that's my answer I'm in favor of getting rid of them and having people walk around and figuring out some kind of other way to get their messages across I would get rid of the damn things 100% And I wouldn't replace them with anything that's my opinion thank you I would replace them uh in some form not necessarily location but in some form where there is a place to uh provide announcements to the community and also as a place for wayfinding right so uh and take it a step further I don't know if it's possible and or how what's done I recall seeing in New York uh there was a place where someone could make calls to anywhere in the world and there was being sponsored but I can you imagine that at a university where or not just students but our community could make calls so just something to consider okay so what I've I'm sorry we're not discussing that but it's just something to okay so I've heard we don't actually need to answer question number two so let's move to question number three or 3A we have a three and a 3A go ahead for number three does council support using the same eight-sided style structure or can a Slimmer style two or four sided be used for what a kiosk if you were to replace it but de come on I mean we you can't can't ask us that if we just if we decided we're not going to answer question number two this is predicated on question that makes that we are now in the realm of the nonsensical okay Michelle can I make a suggestion um we've done some research there are a lot of options out there for kiosk information wayf finding uh directory of where businesses are um interactive uh WiFi uh there you selfie station I mean there's all kinds of applications that you know a kiosk could have so I would say my suggestion is all these other questions really feed into whether or not we would want that technology somewhere in the downtown all of that really will take a lot more of a deep dive and a presentation on the options and what the technology is so I'd say let's table that we've made one decision tonight we have a big agenda so far I think we should rest on on our Laurels and move on okay I'm sorry Leon had to stand up yeah if we all agree that we want to take down the kios right why don't we just leave it at that we can always come back and revisit what we want to put there but why don't we all agree and stop tonight and say that we want them done they're gone and then we'll figure out what we want to put in place of them come on let's let's get rid of this craziness man let's make decisions and stop the craziness if we all agree we want to get rid of the kios let's get rid of the chos take next steps next week or next month all right but in all fairness to the staff if Dean is fine that we don't answer the other questions this evening that is fine that is fine uh I would appreciate if you could direct us on the approach when we bring back information will this be done by consensus of council like the first question was we would present the options on kiosks and then it would be like a work session here where you you give consensus vote on different features yes okay which is fine and anybody that has a viewpoint on what features you do or do not want to see it would probably be great to share those with de and Jim ahead of time to help may may maybe our communications director could send out in our newsletter an announcement to tell the community in Princeton that we are getting rid of the kiosk what would you like to see in this place if anything how about we take some of the pressure off of our shoulders the six or seven people here on the deas and let the community weigh in sometimes on what they think okay and let me just because I sense of a sense of urgency here that we're trying to move the whole project at a certain speed but having not had the questions that were asked at the last meeting yet provided I am extremely concerned I there's a big disconnect here those questions need to be answered before the project goes forward so what the heck's happening we have the answers to the questions um and we can distribute those tomorrow to council that would be good because there's direct impact on the cost of the project and the time the project will take Etc thank you thank you I don't mean to be giving anybody a hard time but my job is to ask questions not that I have the answers but thank you okay we're done with that one no now we have another work session on special events ordinance oh my God can can Okay g agenda yeah go ahead please sorry thank you on to the next work session uh Lisa Maddox is here tonight with me we have been working with staff uh we have a working team including the clerk police Recreation Health zoning um our department administration and the attorney to look at our regulations regarding special events and to formulate ideas for a new ordinance um so as you'll see here on the screen we currently have four different code sections that relate to um special events public events either in roadways rideway sidewalks or in um Municipal Parks or plazas um as well as even the tournament event at yasa palana um most of these are approved by by the clerk after review by various departments um Park use for specific Parks as listed here um fall under the purview of the recreation director um so in our working group we cated a list of all of the various issues that we're having related to special events um it's quite a long list on these two slides um I think as Mia mentioned so many of the activities um regarding to public interest and and special events end up happening at Hines Plaza in Princeton for the central New Jersey region um so we have a lot more activities coming in we have a lack of control over the times and locations for the events which um can result in police deploying to help with the activities without the ability for reimbursement uh there's also just the sheer underestimation of the attendees at these various events which again results in extra expenditures by police um and sometimes also other departments like DPW needing to come up and clean after events public Gatherings are occurring in Parks after after dusk which also require unexpected police resources lack of regulations about how to recoup costs whether it's cleanup costs parking Revenue that's lost or damag from these events the lack of ability to enable food trucks on public property which is desirable and permissible possibly for special events overuse of the streets for races oh insufficient provision for appropriate enforcement and penalties um so moving on from there uh Lisa has worked on a new special event definition I don't know Lisa if you want to go through this sure the the new draft ordinance in concept would I guess Define um first the special event the core of the definition will really be on the space where these events would happen so first definition is to Define an outdoor Municipal area that's om as any Municipal Street Road alley sidewalk right of way Park open space or public Plaza within and under the control of Princeton so that's pretty Broad and and it basically um it eliminates the need to have different um ordinances and different sections in the code so you won't need to have a separate section or chapter on Park usage or um uh the public Plaza usage it'll be all limited to or or all contained in this one um chapter so then we get into the more specific so we have our our our outdoor Municipal area definition then the we look at exactly what kind of event triggers the need for a a permit so the first would be an event um taking place in this outdoor Municipal area um the second would be an event or gathering that's likely to require the expenditure of Municipal resources such as from the police department or public works department Recreation Department um and then our third category is any event or gathering that's likely to require either the closure of a municipal Street or portion of a street blocking public access to any of these Municipal areas um or restriction of public access to these areas the sale of merchandise food beverages in any Alor Municipal area or the placement of a tent or other temporary structure um or any type of portable building in in one of these areas then we also give some examples as to I think that's oh it's on the same um no it's not on the same slide it is on the same slide I'm on the wrong one okay so we gave some examples and this is not all inclusive but this is is really intended to give a um a pretty good idea as to what would be contemplated um so include fairs markets concerts parades marches um any kind of protests or assemblies anything taking place in these these um open Municipal areas that um bring people together so it's so that's basically the design of the these new definitions it's it's pretty Broad and inclusive and intended to um Encompass all of these large events that take place on Municipal property but it they're really planned events um and there is actually a category we didn't get into it yet but about spontaneous events because we want to make sure that we're protective of very important First Amendment rights and that's the right to protest so we um have a definition for spontaneous event where you if if there is a spontaneous event a permit is not necessary and those are events that are in direct response to a um an event that's happening in the world or in the state or in in the area where people have the right to exercise their right to protest without having to get a permit and if it it's usually and we looked at other actually looked at California they had some some really good examples but it is an event that's T that takes place let's see spontaneous event an event taking place in an outdoor Municipal area that is in response to news or Affairs coming into public knowledge less than 40 48 hours prior to such event an event that requires Advanced planning or involves advertising or greater than 48 hours shall not be considered a spontaneous event so that's another element to this because that's that's come up a lot with the police department and they're not always sure should we require a permit shouldn't we require a permit so this this sort of locks down that that idea so that that's that's it for the definition it's it's there's a lot to digest for the definition so then there's also a built-in list of proposed exemptions so any municipally sponsored event um a Princeton Public School event that takes place only on school property and does not obstruct or close um any of these outdoor Municipal areas private parties which only take place on private property and do not close or obstruct public lands funeral processions and spontaneous events can I just make two quick comments M for the exemption for the public schools I'm I'm fine with that except if it triggers expenses on our part right so it could be on their property but I don't know the size of the crowd maybe I don't know maybe we need to provide something else whatever so I would just maybe consider we add a little if it's costing us money we're not necessarily do doing it on our dime that could be our decision the other thing is I think we need to Define spontaneous events because I could decide to have a parade and then just not tell you about it and suddenly say geez I don't know a thousand of my friends showed up and we decided to walk down nassal street spontaneously yeah I would be a little concerned about how we Define spontaneous events yeah yes I I want to uh follow up on that um a little bit so if an event happens and people gather with less than 48 hours notice that spontaneous but if an event happens on Monday and I plan a protest for Saturday uh then I according to Lisa the definition that you had then I would need to have a permit and uh I don't know uh this hadn't occurred to me reading through this earlier um I don't think we spoke about cost at at all is that uh accurate CU that's going to be uh a key thing in here like can if I want to have I want to have whatever something terrible happened on Monday I organize a protest for Saturday but it's a political event it's a free speech event do I then have to pay for my permit and that might incur obviously police costs DPW costs but so I don't know if we've thought we yes I don't know if you and and Deana have fought through like the the Free Speech issues related to these things and especially as it might be related to the cost of a permit because obviously if you're bringing in a food truck and you're having a you know that kind of event it's for your organization that's a very different matter than if you know us out of El Salvador which I know dates me but um you know that that kind of thing which uh I don't know if we want to charge but the costs associated with that could be substantial so as it's currently drafted there would be a cost if there if if if you're able to plan it several days in advance so three or four days there would be a cost because the idea is that you are able to plan it and you're able to invite people so the way it's draft it right now there would be a cost so then we get into there's a another portion of this ordinance that talks about the police department and the need to close streets and to pay um police officers for for their services so the those costs would be passed on for any planned event including a protest if if it's more than a certain amount of days um for planning yeah that that's going to really need a deep dive uh because again sort of like the kiosk thing there free free speech issues uh involved in that but thanks Michelle yeah this is this is a good start there's there's a lot here you know when we talk about exemptions I assume that you know exemptions would also extend like are we talking about like what what do we do do we do a different fee structure when it's a nonprofit versus it's a for-profit entity running an event on you know I so I think we need to delineate that um and you know time frame like how long will the event be I mean is it like just a 2hour event is it a 4-day event um you know so those the delineation again and that should also be tied to what the fees are obviously we need to be recouping those police and DPW Services um and other services that we're providing um and then there are other things and maybe I'm jumping ahead but um you know this doesn't this doesn't uh talk about busing or the noise ordinance or music you know in terms again of the timing uh we talked about allowing for busing um and also there's a new state law that allows open containers but my understanding is that the municipality has to have an ordinance that allows that open container law to take place but this would be a good time to investigate that and see if that's something also a tying to a special event tying to a specific time in a specific event and whether or not we do that just for nonprofits as a profit generator for them or if we also extend it to nonprofits so I'm throwing lot of questions out that I don't have answers to but I think that these are this is the a good place to address those issues as well right I know last time when we talked about the meter whole thing there special events was mentioned in there so I don't remember all the detail of that discussion I have to go back to my notes but we just have to make sure at some point we understand how this interacts with that uh proposed those proposed changes sure to to make sure that Echo what Mark said like meters and and parking like I wasn't sure how much that was included here if you uh are are doing something and that involves you know taking away some parking maybe not even metered parking but just parking outside your whatever it is that that is normally a public space are there con you know fees or Consequences for that or I just get to put cones up and block the parking on my side of the street because I have a lot of people coming or yeah that that would be included um so jumping now to the new Provisions we will be allowing food trucks um as a part of this public works and police costs would be recouped um parking whether it's paid parking or unpaid parking would be included in the permit fees um there'd also be the insurance requirements and limits stated uh and the indemnification requirements and then lastly with um the various races that we have in town uh police would like to see pre-established race routes be designated and updated as necessary that way we're not overburdening neighborhoods too often but it also gives police an opportunity to build a response plan or you know a security plan and just have it available to pull up when a race comes rather than having to create that on the fly when there's a request from an agency or an organization um um so the one uh there will be still a division in the permits issuance at this point in time uh Recreation will still have the ability to uh take reservations for some of these location or these locations listed on the slide uh depending on the size of the event it may switch over and Trigger uh special events permit through the clerk's office at those facilities and then all the other specially event permits would still go through the clerk's office and I think that was it for the presentation other questions comments Michelle they and just one other thing in terms of the municipal um uh roadway use is to anticipate um if an event wants to do Witherspoon uh for that you know that that one block there from Spring to Nassau um that you know we extend Ed and we talked about putting ballards and being able to close it on a Sunday afternoon for an event we should anticipate that and encourage that since we made that investment and it's something that you know the community really wanted to be able to utilize but we would be you be be losing some parking revenue and we'd have to have the ballards put up and you know and redirect traffic so there's cost to the municipality as well but I think it would be good to add that okay e uh I just want to I just want to confirm I understand so uh so if you have more than 25 people then it becomes a a permitted is that right that or is that that's what it is currently under existing regulations like would that be the number that we would stick with or that's up for grabs there wouldn't be a number trigger anymore it's it's really we go back to that definition of special event which what really triggers it is is whether or not you need to close streets um and whether or not you need res police resources or other Municipal resources um so it's not so much the number but the the need for the public space and and so something again like on Hines plaza where you had a a regular Gathering I'm just again I'm C going back again to the the Free Speech issues that for some of our our smaller organizations like you know peace action or something like that that you know I know just had something on hine's Plaza for them to have to pay a fee for that would really I think squelch you know Free Speech here so I just wonder maybe Lisa you can uh do a little bit of research or think a little bit like how do other communities uh handle this like you know if I want to whatever stage a protest every week on Hines Plaza against something like applying for a permit is one thing but paying $50 or $100 for it could be really uh problematic even if it's a small uh fee so just want to know what our options are and what the state or I don't know if there federal or just State regulation says about Free Speech issues on public lands um I mean it's it's a it's somewhat complicated as as I'm sure you can imagine so it anytime you open up a p a park or a plaza for any kind of public discourse you're really creating a public forum and and and you know you've created rules essentially people can gather for any reason and it's really only so nothing is going to stop people from just showing up and they can have a protest they don't have to get a permit for a a small you know just a group of people especially on a public plaza where they're not impacting traffic or anything like that but if they if they're in the middle of the street and they want to block a street that becomes a different issue because then you get into public safety so location could matter um the plaza and the sidewalks and parks are probably your most protected area where you're you're a little more restricted in terms of your ability to to curb First Amendment uh Speech a First Amendment activity in speech on the streets you have the most power because it's a public safety issue so your controls are going to be greater can I I don't that helps at all I just say that's very helpful I I just have one quick followup to that so I don't know how it works now in terms of events on Hines Plaza but you know a group might decide we're going to meet there what if there's another group at the same time like is there some kind of is there some Authority approving my gathering on Hines Plaza I don't know the answer to that but but if there is that um then again how do we allow for since we we're going to have to say oh you can have one to three and you know Deana can have three to five or whatever does that then impel some kind of fee structure even if it's not really requiring a lot of costs from the municipality in that situation I think the only fee like in a park unless you need Public Works to work overtime to to get rid of garbage and things like that or on in the in in Hines Plaza um the the real the only real cost would be the permit fee so it's it's just for purposes of of covering the administrative costs and ensuring that anyone who needs to review that application can review it so right now I mean there there different we have the the draft uh includes two different fees one is $100 and that's if you uh make your application between 6 months and 30 days before so the more time that you give the municipality essentially the cheaper your your permit is because they have more time to review it then if your application is between 30 and 4 day four 30 days and 4 days then you're the the fee is a little higher it's $200 but those those are just ideas those are you know just placeholders at this point but just to show that you you can have two separate fees based on the amount of time and the reason that it's more expensive for a shorter amount of time because then you know the your Municipal officials will have to drop things to make sure that they can properly review the the fees but then there are some right now there are proposed insurance requirements there's no requirement that you that you impose insurance requirements on every type of activity so again your your uses that it that are in the public right of way and the streets you may want to require insurance and I think that's currently what's required but your activities in public plazas and potentially in the Parks depending upon where they are and what they're using you may not want to charge so you do have flexibility we're we're trying to make it easier for you guys but I know it's it's not that easy because you you have so many different areas and so many different needs and so then it does become a little more complicated so you can have a off B schedule that applies to different types of um activities you can have different fees for different groups like nonprofits versus for profits but you just have to make sure you apply them fairly so any nonprofit would would get a break versus any commercial entity would have would have to pay but and it's really a main component of this was is the police department has been unable to um to just be compensated for a lot of the time that it spends protecting the public for so many events so that's been kind of an impetus behind behind this and so we that's the police department's very interested in ensuring that that that the municipality is compensated for for its work and um especially with closing streets and protecting the public for for large scale events but we I mean we kind of took out the the the number of of attendees but that's something that can certainly be easily added because a lot of towns do have certain thresholds but sometimes it's hard because one thing we've also learned from the police department is it you can't always anticipate how many people are going to attend so they may say only only 23 people are supposed to be attending but then you have 200 people and then if they're they have they don't know that they're supposed to pay then you're in this difficult situation so we're trying to alleviate that somewhat but it's it's not perfect okay is that you're good Mia I just want to say this is just an incredibly complex issue and I don't think we're going to get all our questions answered tonight and I think we should definitely not schedule three work sessions in the future in the same evening um and I would recommend I would just say like this is something that I delved into when I first got on to council and I Must Have Spent A Day talking to the police about it a day talking about to the clerk and a day talking to trishka about it and there are so like the the complications of the legal the financial and I think we have for purposes of tonight I will just say conflated special events with the sorts of I also Eve was very concerned about you know um how we handle things like demonstrations and you know political speech versus special events and I think we've we really have uh done ourselves a disservice by trying to put it all into one bucket but I just I think we the interplay between all of these and then Municipal law and state law and it's it's really more complex then I think we can fully reach and I'm not sure what we were trying to reach tonight anyway were we trying to reach something I think we're just looking for feedback and help guide the process as we move towards something that will eventually come to fruition so I would just like to recommend we may all have different needs in in the level in which we want to delve into this and if and in you know for those who are particularly interested it's a number of different conversations with different uh uh groups in our in the our Municipal operations okay any other questions or comments to help this process okay we said a lot hopefully some of it's useful and guides you guys as you move forward good luck can't wait till the next session on this I'm sorry okay we're going to take a two and a half minute break let's all do sprinting sorry we know it's getting late and sorry for people waiting for the next couple of agenda items but we'll get [Music] there you leaving okay good for you I'm good how are you always for that's about good how are you thanks for coming out I mean like you know I mean you know e spe e all right we're almost ready to start again yeah yeah it's on is it on yeah okay there we go now they're on thanks Adam okay next up is uh public hearings first one up is ordinance 202 24-36 an ordinance by the municipality of Princeton concerning Solid Waste and Recycling and amending chapters 15 and 21 of the code of the burrow of Princeton New Jersey 1974 can we have a motion on this thank you Michelle can we have a second thank you you Lon so we can start discussion Council questions comments Eve was the quickest you go first so um I I may want to I I want to bring up uh something for uh my colleagues to uh be aware of as the ordinances is currently written it establishes a 6 a.m. allowable garbage uh pickup time throughout the municipality that was not my understanding of what was intended and so if my colleagues agree I would introduce uh I would amend the ordinance which would require reintroduction uh to keep a 7 a.m. time outside of the central business district and there would be two places that uh we would have to revert back to the 7 a.m. time and just keep the 6:00 a.m. pickup in the central business district so first is everyone am I being clear about what I'm saying yeah I I don't know if that that did not seem to be the original intent to me but maybe I was wrong about that so um if you look at it carefully that's that's what it does let's just find out if it really needs a reintroduction or not I don't know that it that a question has been has been asked and answered already asked and answered by by Jim no Jim can't give you a legal no Jim Jim came Jim came to me asked I I believe it does because it it it could be significant to members of the public so I I definitely think it it is if we never intended to change the time of the pickup outside of the central business district and someone did that by mistake because no one was asked to change the time of the pickup outside of the central business district you're saying keeping it the way it is now is a significant change it it's so it's a typo basically I don't I just I'm so I'm sorry but I just want to make sure right because what you're asking is that the ordinance not change for outside the central business district and I thought the changes to this ordinance were supposed to deal with only the central business district that that's what I thought when I brought up this concern after introduction I was told that that it was that was intentional not accidental so okay uh I just whatever inal to keep the status quo I don't know that's just all right well I'm sorry Lisa is the attorney not me so no but I think she may have misunderstood the question I mean basically what Eve is saying is there's some sort of you know typo and so or there's some sort of Mis I mean like why would we have to reintroduce to keep a law that's already on the books The Way It Is Well because that's not how the the in the ordinance is introduced is drafted it's B written I see is written as though the intent is to change it from 700 a.m. to 6:00 a.m. everywhere I see okay so that's the so it's a so if someone were to just review this got it a member of the public and then they said Oh I like that change I'm not going to come to the meeting and complain about it and then they don't show up you change it it's unfortunate it wasn't caught before but yeah okay okay so if we want to address that so let okay so thank you for pointing that out but as so okay so we just if that's the case then we just need to stop the discussion or do we continue discussing you can continue the discussion and then and then if if there are any other amendments that you want you make the Amendments and then you can vote on the ordinance as amended and then it becomes like a reintroduction okay all right so there's the so there's one concern right there right thank you very much there's two places where a change would need to be made one concern in two different locations same thing got it do other people have we always start up here so are there other Council questions comments may can I just just ask a question I just want to be sure is the issue that Eve is pointing out that when we initially did this we were thinking that we were concentrating solely on the central business district when we allowed pickups to be at 6:00 a.m. and the ordinance the way it's written expands directly from the central business district but all over Princeton that that bulk waste can be picked up at 6:00 a.m. yes and and is is is that is the feeling that that was a mistake in the ordinance that because because I do not believe and I do not remember us talking about anything other than the central business District when we had this conversation I I do not remember us talking about worldwide Princeton at 6: a.m. I I don't think we would have signed up for that in the beginning correct that's what we're saying so that's what we're amending now well that's what we're saying is a problem so now we're going to say now we're asking does anyone notice anything else that they think is problematic or they don't agree with so for since we have to reintroduce it let's try to catch everything at once so are there any other points no I'm good I'm just catching myself up thank you yep yep I have a typo too all right well okay can I mention my typo yeah go ahead in section 15.3.1 1B it says provide a sufficient number of dumpsters sufficient to contain so I would get rid of the second sufficient um I I would so I would like to state I'm still concerned about the 6: a.m. start I thought we were spending more more effort or focus on this trying to figure out what time you can put your trash out and how soon after the trash is picked up you have to bring the containers in and the fact that you have to use containers I didn't realize that we were going to be looking at the start time for picking up trash again I thought we had talked about that many months ago and kind of put that to rest so I'm just pointing out to everybody that the 6 a.m. start in the central business district is pretty darn early if you're someone who is not up because you're working in fact you might be sleeping in an apartment above a business I just want to make sure we're all aware of that yeah but whatever um Michelle and then Leon okay well yeah that's a good catch Eve um I thought that we were primarily we were changing this to put the trash carts out after 6 the night before of pickup and that they have to be removed by 10:15 a.m. the day of pickup from the central business district and that that um the 6: a.m. was desirable in the central business district and we were we were adjusting the noise ordinance but that was just for the central business district because we need those trucks to get in and out it's a mess right now with the traffic and the snarls and um we have had feedback that the trash collectors would prefer to get in and out of the CBD before it's parked up so um that's the reason for the 6 am. and thank you Eve for picking up on that I didn't pick up on this um that this was changed outside of the CBD but anyway it's too bad because the sooner we get this done the better so I don't I'm sorry but I don't quite understand we are so we're just talking rhetorically now we're not actually going to be able to vote on it we are going to have to do take some action tonight which would be either we ignore the change that was made throughout the town and say hey we're just going to pass this anyway or we say yep we didn't really intend that so Lisa and Engineering go back and rewrite this and we'll reintroduce it at a later time so then but we could also I think the main purpose of us talking right now is there anything else that anyone wants addressed because it seems very likely we will end up asking for this to be changed and reintroduced the you can amend it and if you if you vote to um amend it tonight for to to remove the 6: a.m. time then tonight's meeting acts as as a reintroduction so you don't have to reintroduce so tonight is the okay all right I'm sorry I missed that yes then you just need one more meeting tonight okay I'm sorry L you know I I want to apologize to Dean and Jim because you know I thought this ordinance was good to go uh and I talked to Deana about what I looked at uh was the pickup time and I noticed the discrepancy that in the central business district the pickup time after the morning was like 10:00 a.m. in the morning that they had to you know get get the uh the uh containers in but when I looked at the residential area it said 1159 and I initially thought that that was you know pm and I thought like well if you're not if you're saying that there's a discrepancy between or a differential between the central business district and the people in the rest of Princeton and the central business district has to pick their canisters up early in the morning to get them out the way but again people that come home from work or wherever like you and me have until 11:59 or midnight why wouldn't they just bring them in the very next morning so that was my question but but again I I thought our conversation was exclusively about the central business district and I've wholeheartedly agreed at 6:00 is a is a reasonable time to have people come out and get your trash in the central business district and if you choose and you chose to live right above on Nassau Street or on Witherspoon Street above one of the eateries oh well you know that's what you bought however if you live in the neighborhood where I live the uh you know uh anywhere else the the Valley Road neighborhood fiser Avenue neighborhood Mia neighborhood or a residential neighborhood I don't see you know and and and I do not think to my recollection that we signed up for 6:00 a.m. in the residential neighborhoods so if I if we did or I did I apologize for that and having us go through that but I think it should be changed I think 6 Lo in the central business district is good no earlier than seven in the residential districts but I think everybody the central business district should have their trashes off the street at like eight or 9:00 in the morning if it's picked up and residential neighborhoods when you come home from work 4 or 5:00 your can should be in you shouldn't have the cans out until midnight or the night if the day are picked up that's just what I think how we should roll with it okay thanks L I agree Len yeah absolutely um so I'm just trying to find it Eve could you tell us where the typo is or this change yes so there are two places 15.3.2 a and number one should now well but that says right they 7 7 a.m. is in Brackets which means that's what's being changed the 6 a.m. in front of that means that's the new boing right it says a says residents of eligible Residential Properties except for those in the central business district shall Place municipally issued cards for collection in the area no early than 700 p.m. and uh sorry no later than 6:00 a.m. Municipal solid waste collection shall take place between the hours of 6:00 a.m. that's. 3.6 A1 so that should go back to 7 that just needs to go to S okay right and then uh the same in 15.3.1 D A1 it should collection of solid waste from Commercial Business uh establishments and multif family dwellings except those in the central business district shall take place between the hours that should be 700 a.m. and 400 p.m. so just those two changes so can we can we then can we do a redo Lisa and just make a motion with those two amendments um to approve this yeah yes Lisa's answer to that earlier was yes did you make the motion this is a public hearing the public gets a chance to speak and we need to make sure the rest us don't have any other changes okay I I would I would question the 4 P.M cut off for picking up trash in the residential sections because the trash isn't always picked up by 4 p.m. so are we going to have something in ordinance that doesn't realistically follow what actually happens I mean a truck breaks down there's streets closed for who knows maybe construction that's snowed or whatever the trash isn't always picked up by 4 p.m. so I don't know does somebody really want to call us one day and say that to six or well I think it needs to be something a little more realistic it's the schedule has it being picked this is what it's been but it's not always ear afternoon but if it's not it's it's an exception and I mean I think usually that gets called in by the company right to they usually call in and say you know we're running we're missing the street or whatever I mean I well does the ordinance say that they can call into the office and say we're running late give us an exception to the ordinance yes well well the only reason I'm saying this is you know there are people in town that could decide okay I'm going to file a complaint against the company because it's after 4 p.m. and they're still picking up garbage and I don't want the garbage guys to get a ticket for something that just doesn't make sense that's all I mean if we're making changes let's make all the changes that are required anyway I'm too practical I agree with with with Mark on on this whatever I it's not going to happen very often they want to get the job done as early as possible so you know to avoid you know I think 600 p.m. would certainly accommodate it and would not interfere with anybody's bedtime or anything like that except mine not going to sweat that one okay do we have any other comments up here because if not I'll open up to the public and then we can try to figure out what the amendments are and then make that motion and this will serve as the new introduction and there'll be a vote however many days hence okay nothing else up here no I mean I was going to make comments about this go ahead in in in general just to say that you know experience Princeton is reaching out to the businesses there has been business input um and buy into doing the 600 p.m um it's predicated on the fact that a lot of businesses close unfortunately at 6 so you know it's it's more convenient from a staffing standpoint um so now you know once this is in place um you know there needs to be another Outreach to make this work because the whole idea is to start to clean the streets up and not have cans lining uh during you know during the whole weekend um in stacks of uh recycled paper and so on so um so anyway this is a first step um and it's been a a good back and forth and I just want to say that there will be more Outreach and we have to really get the business community on board with getting this done so you know and but you have to put the you have to put the ordinance in place first thank you okay is there anybody from the public in the room that wants to speak to this oh up I'm sorry we got to get it for the minutes you if you're not the microphone and the people on Zoom can't hear you say who you are Kim Dorman thank you well according to the ordinance right now they should not be picking up before 7: a.m. okay anybody on Zoom that wants to comment on this uh this item about the trash collection c times containers Etc okay nobody nobody on Zoom wants to make a comment we'll close the public comment part of this and does someone want to move some amendments Eve I would like to make four suggestions for amendments the uh keeping the time at 700 a.m. in those two uh spots 15.3 .6 A1 keeping the time to 7 a.m. and then 15.3.1 d uh the mayor's suggestion of changing the end time in uh 15. 3.61 to 6: p.m. rather than 400 p.m. and finally my suggestion to remove the uh second sufficient in 15.3.1 1 B and I move the ordinance as amended in those multiple ways Z second second thank you Michelle okay so we are going to have a roll call vote if the amendments are accepted this serves I just want to be real clear for the record that this I'm sorry no no I didn't know if there was a wave or like Okay so this will serve as we are reintroducing this yeah and then we will set and what will the new date be will be it won't be the next meeting it'll be in two meetings right why not November 12 12 is one meeting enough yes yeah it's just a standard ordinance we'll we'll just read advertise as we would if if this was the true introduction all right so it'll be November 12th yes okay I okay I'm sorry me a question just a comment I want to say I see that uh Brian McDonald is in the audience and Brian you have big shoes to fill when Eve leaves I hope you understand that you have to have this same level of attention to detail or we are all in trouble so take note okay roll call vote Miss Peron lambrose yes Miss Neer gang yes Miss sax yes Miss froga yes Mr nulan carried okay thanks public hearing on ordinance 202 2437 been an ordinance by the municipality of Princeton regard regulating loading zones and parking on Palmer Square East and amending the code of the burrow of Princeton New Jersey 1974 is there a motion thank you Michelle is there a second thank you Leticia and basically all this is saying is that you can't park on H uh Palmer Square East East in front of Triumph brup correct thank you very much just so everybody body's aware Council questions comments on this one see none anyone in the room want to talk on this one okay anybody on Zoom want to talk on this one I seeing no comments we'll close the public hearing and roll call vote please miss Peron lambrose yes Miss Neer gang yes Miss Sachs yes Miss Fraga yes Mr nulan yes carried thank you very much public hearing on ordinance 202 24-38 an ordinance by the municipality of Princeton regulating parking for Princeton High School students faculty and staff and amending chapter 19 of the code of the burough of Princeton New Jersey 1974 which someone thank you latisia moves it Leighton seconds it Council questions comments can somebody summarize what this does Mr Mayor um this uh ordinance um will allow for um teachers and staff of the um High School to park on Franklin Avenue between Harris Road and Jefferson uh and on um Mo street right between uh hton and uh and Franklin that's the essence of this okay and we have the school uh business we have Matt Balden who we we need to bring him in and he will explain as well this is the request of the school district okay let me just finish with with our engineering department so I'm sorry so it sounds like we are adding parking for faculty and staff are we changing parking in any way for the students we are not I'm sorry the answer was we are not no okay yeah I'm just trying to yeah I'm just trying to set the stage for the discussion that's about to happen I'm trying to help answer no yeah no no students will be allowed to park on those uh in those on Franklin or more in those areas we are not changing that all right thank you all right I'm happy to explain a little bit there has been a increase in staff at the high school they do not have enough parking um and so this allows uh and they have uh teachers to park um on on three gives them three additional places and so there was just residential permit parking there and now there's there will be residential uh there there aren't a lot of residents right on on these three areas um and this this will uh ensure that there are enough spaces for for teachers to park which um is at the request of the district and we felt that it it was very important for teachers to be able to park so they can teach so thanks ltia uh so I just had a question and I guess I can reserve my comments for after the public now you can do your comments now so we'll do our comments up here and then I'll invite the public to come okay so first a question um what other streets besides hton Road can faculty and staff Park and where are visitors allowed to park this ordinance will allow visitors uh as well as faculty and staff but we anticipate that faculty and staff will be parking on more and Franklin um Walnut Lane uh after uh School drop off and before school pickup because Walnut is uh used for school buses um that will be available for short-term parking for visitors uh when we when we fix this ordinance and are teachers allowed okay teachers are now currently allowed to park on hton they could also Park um in other areas um we're also allowing them with this ordinance to um uh Park in uh the Westminster uh um parking lot um and in other areas that are designated for students um gu Avenue uh and Franklin Avenue okay and and the reason I asked that question is as many of you know I live on hton and it's I I don't know if there were and the other streets where faculty and staff are allowed to park uh but living there and I and I must say uh we we moved there knowing that there was a high school and knowing that that's a uh it's not it's a public road it doesn't belong to me or or to or anyone that lives in the in that neighborhood I don't think that's our streets it's their public streets uh but I do understand the need for uh regulating parking so that uh with all the students are not going to be tempted to bring their cars and and park up the streets but with that said I do see a need for additional parking that would allow staff and faculty and visitors to park and I just I feel that I I just didn't understand why it's restricted to just uh some streets and some sections where there's so much space in the High School area that is not being used to my comments thank you latia other questions or comments up here I I'd be curious if there's an answer to uh Leia's uh question it was this deemed sufficient parking for the uh amount of there there are yes there there's more faculty and staff than there are parking spaces within the high school off street parking lot um and staff and and faculty are actually taking up the visitor spaces in order when they Park in the uh faculty and staff lot um so um I guess but I'm sorry but would would the these changes then allow will there then be enough parking for the faculty and staff and visitors or yes okay we worked we worked closely with the uh the the high school and the school district and uh determine the exact number of parking spaces they felt were necessary and that's why they're restricted to this section of more in this section of Franklin I'll just say Eve this is the result of of numerous meetings between Deanna Jim and I and the police and the high school principal and various other high school officials who are involved with parking and we've gone over and over and over the numbers and you know this is I think this was what everyone agreed would be sufficient to to rectify a situation in which just really unacceptable with with teachers ending up with uh parking tickets and um um you know having to take time off to go to court and um uh you know there are uh parents needing to um or Aids needing to come in and out during the day to assist with kids who have special needs and this the situation was was really untenable um and um this will um doesn't solve everything but it it's it's a it's a fix for it it gets us where we need to go for now to so okay yes Leta uh just what you said Mia it's a fix for now so uh you know I I would want to uh make sure that what we're providing is not just what's needed for now especially like I said before I feel that there's ample parking that should be made available that is it's not that you know just because it's a their special permit area for that neighborhood that uh does not allow non-residents to park in most of the streets during uh the Academic Year during school hours but if there's more needed I I think it should be considered and not just restricted to just certain areas that sounds like more than than a reintroduction or a small no no I'm just saying is that we we shouldn't uh maybe we need to amend it later but we shouldn't just restrict it to what's needed now I I hear that I also remember vaguely that we voted recently um to move forward with acquiring a rather large property that's adjacent to the high school um and should that play out I think that provides all sort all sorts of opportunities to rethink the circulation in the area um and as well as parking needs and so I hope we do have the hope we'll be able to have that larger discussion but at any rate for now uh the school district is is feels that this is adequate and um it's something that our police were intricately involved in um uh figuring out so I think we're for now okay okay let me open this up to the public anybody in the room that wants to speak on this okay great well I thought I'm going to ask for the public Matt for our purposes is considered public Matt I would suggest that you wait to hear comments from others and then that might be better for you to jump in after that but you choose anyway anybody on Zoom that wants to talk to this please raise your virtu hand and we'll we'll get you in here and remember you have to say your name and address and you have 3 minutes but anybody on Zoom that wants to talk to this okay no hands are up I will close the public hearing and ask for a roll call vote Miss Pon lambrose yes Miss Neer gang yes Miss Sachs yes Miss froga yes Mr nulan yes Carri okay thank you let's move to resolutions 24312 resolution of the mayor and Council of Princeton authorizing the execution of a Green Acres agreement or amendments there to for open space acquisition Eve is making the motion is there a second Thank You Leon uh Bernie can you just you or somebody I don't know who just explain what we're doing here just so the public knows sure this is the 14th time Council has done this since uh August of 2002 anytime we get new Green Acres money uh we have to pass an amendment like this we the last one you all passed was uh May 1 of this year uh so it's more housekeeping they're giving I think this is $700,000 we're adding that now to the Green Acres funds when we accept the money anything we purchase with it uh we agree that the property will go on the rosi uh so that's just that's what this is okay thank you Council questions comments all right seeing none uh all in favor please say I I I 24313 resolution of the mayor and Council of princ and authorizing the award of a Professional Services agreement to Princeton Hydro LLC for continuation of services and furtherance of phase two of a stormwater utility feasibility study for $12,495,000 thank you Eve for the motion is there a second thank you Mia Council questions or comments Eve I I just want to clarify or maybe Dean can clarify that this is not new money this is just uh we're extending the term of the contract and so we have to reauthorize the spending is that right correct um state law allows if a professional service agreement is related to to a public works construction then uh you can have a longer term than 12 months um but because this is not related to public works construction the term is set at 12 months they have not completed the scope of work so this is just it's another 12month term at the remainder of the fee that was associated in the first 12 months okay thank you for that other questions or comments i' see none all in favor please say I I 24314 resolution of the mayor and Council of Princeton authorizing the extension of a contract with Eastern Armored Services Inc for 20125 and 2026 so it's a solid two-year contract armored car services for an amount not to exceed $243,700 that's why I emphasize it's a two-year contract and the dollar amounts more than what we might have seen in the past uh Leon thanks for the motion is there a second um was there a second thank you Leticia okay Council questions or comments Michelle so I I have some real concerns about this particularly that it's two years um you know I just want to point out that we're spending about $120,000 a year to collect coins which is you know metered coins coins and at the garage and I just would really like to explore if we could just go touchless payments and save this money because it is an enormous amount of money um to collect money so I don't you know I know that this doesn't really have to go into effect until the first of the year so I don't know if there's a way to um you know look at this uh before it takes effect and I asked maybe um I and I did ask Sandy earlier today I know we are collecting $30,000 a month worth of coins so I just ask my colleagues I mean would this be something that we could consider um looking at um because I really I'm very concerned about tying us up for another two years to this old system of coins good point I'm sorry you go first thanks yeah I had the same uh thought Michelle looking at this thank you for uh giving us the number so basically we're bringing in 360 and we're spending 120 exactly but um my understanding and I'll defer to whoever knows more about this than I do is that moving to a a cashless economy really is very hard for uh our population in need because they often don't have the credit card they don't have uh an alternative method of of paying other than uh coinage so um I guess I'd want more information before we made any kind of uh uh decision and maybe maybe this is something that you know Human Services or or in conjunction with parking could kind of look into to I don't know how we do this but I'm I'm very loathed to take a step that would disenfranchise people yeah but at the same time it's ridiculous we're spending a third of our revenue on this and I don't have an answer my only question is what's Best Practices elsewhere um you know is there something we're overlooking um and you know I asked you know I I would reach out to you know deian and and team on that and all all I'm saying is you know could we just maybe postpone this decision or if we pass it tonight we've got a couple of months just to play with just to explore that I just wanted to raise the issue because it it is an awful lot of money right my assumption though is this is not just meter money my assumption is this is any and all cash coming into this building including tax some people pay their taxes in cash so it's any cash that we receive as a municipality not just coins at at the meters right it's all cash that comes into our buildings uh okay just want to make that clear other comments questions M I like keeping my quarters in a little baggie in my car and using them um I I think your point is valid Eve and um but I also I think both of your points are valid and I I think we should explore it I I I do think most people have at least a debit card um but if we were going to explore this and discuss with human services the potential you know if is there um some way we could you know off offer some some sort of we could off we could start a Princeton parking c i I don't think we've ever done that I I think it'll be something we can move towards so the question is I guess Bernie would we do we still need these Armored Services anyway because of yes the other we just got dud saying that this is all cash that comes into the municipality I know but right so do we I okay unless unless we're going to force everybody to pay by credit card or check I guess and not accept cash any longer and I don't know that you would really be able to do that cash is legal tender if somebody comes in to pay a bill and they say I want to give you cash I don't know that you cannot accept it but anyway for the sake of this evening I don't know that we really need to have a long runout discussion about this can I just finish my question yeah go ahead yeah so my question was just if it's if it if you're just coming to the municipal building that's a much more constrained scope than all of collecting from all the meters so it could conceivably be less I just it might it would be worth knowing that um so I'm I'm if this is urgent I'm fine Deana I it's but if but if we need to vote on it tonight um I'm I'm fine with that too I don't know the timeline do you know the when the last one expires is it the end of the year I think it's the end of the year so we would just need to have a a resolution before we can carry it to the next one get you some more information on dollar amounts that you know over the course of a year and I think it's worth getting some more information so what did whoever made the motion are you willing to change the motion to table this till more information is available who made the motion was that you it was you Leon made the motion second yes excuse me mayor what was that to table it until we get more information are you okay with amending I am more than willing to table it until we get more information okay who who seconded it originally I did you're okay with that okay move to table until we have more information seconded all in favor say I I there you go uh 24315 resolution of the mayor and Council of Prince and authorizing release of a performance guarantee in the amount of $280,600 to the GP NJ owner LLC for preliminary and final major site plan for 20 nassal street block 1902 Lots 17 to 20 is there thank you Michelle is there a second on that thank you Mia questions or comments why are the seconds taking so long all in favor please say I I thank you for bailing us out uh 24316 resolution of the mayor and Council of Princeton authorizing the purchase of firefighter turnout gear from Skylands Area Fire Equipment and Training LLC for $7,990 111 utilizing New Jersey state contract 17- fleet-- z810 thank you Michelle leighton's got the second questions or comments seeing none all in favor please say I I I 24317 resolution of the mayor and Council of Princeton authorizing the sale of surplus personal property no longer needed for public use on on and online auction website is there a motion on that sure thank you Michelle is there a second what are we auctioning does anybody remember sorry I forgot Sur Surplus personal property Surplus personal property that narrow detailed thank you okay I'm sorry who second me are you seconding no I have a question I need a second before we have a discussion I second it yeah is that what that I'm sorry ltis I missed that my bad okay yes Eve do you have a question I do mayor thank you um I think this came up recently and there were some things we wanted to pull and and maybe donate it is that think the fire truck that was a fire truck that was a fire truck that was not anything related to this that's not part of this I withdraw my question have some okay I'm just looking at the list the radios are something that might be Invision to go to the same place the fire truck's going or to another the fire truck is probably going to go to an a fire department in North Carolina right Banner Elk North Carolina I believe is where they're looking at yeah so they're looking at that because they got wiped out but the radios are probably something that we should also look at seeing if there's other Public Safety agencies that need radios sure um but if they're on this list can we I think we can decide we can reject any bid that's on this list right so or take some things off this list I just want to make sure we do this right if there's a public safety agency that's wiped out by the hurricane I'd rather us give them radios than collect $300 from somebody who's going to resell them okay let me all right why don't I suggest this for the sake of the motion could we please remove the 10 radios uh from this list and just approve the rest of the list is that okay to whoever moved this Michelle so I'll make a mo motion minus the radios uh to move the uh the this resolution thanks Leticia is that okay with you no it I thought it was late no it was you oh it was me okay yes it's okay with me okay any other questions or comments there's nothing else on there that looks immediately uh no desirable no I'm sorry what was I'm just wondering you know Mark this is more in in your real than mine but you know there's uh I I'm just asking if there's anything else on this list that a donation might be desirable I I don't think there's anything else on the list as far as like a far Department police department or for State Squad would be interested I mean DPW departments could be wiped out too but yeah I mean I don't know how much money we bring in from this if it's a substantial amount of money but if it's like you know couple hundred bucks or something like that and somebody's DPW department has been wiped out maybe you know yeah I I just think our DPW stuff is pretty much end of life or Beyond end of life so it I I think I we would almost insult people by giving them the I mean I assume the radios would also be in very poor shape but I I don't I don't radios are probably outdated for us but I would imagine there's plenty of places got it south of here that would love those radios okay so the the new motion is everything on the list except the 10 radios any other questions or comments all right all in favor please say I I next up is the consent agenda if someone could either move it all the items or if anybody wants it pulled off Michelle you're doing all no I'm just all in yeah the whole thing were you pulling I'm trying to be more prompt in seconding I didn't know how to handle the immedate I thought okay uh all in favor please say I I okay David here who wants to make the motion to adjourn thank you Michelle is there a second thank you Eve boy there better be a second on that one all in favor say I we are done thank you everyone who stuck it out you all to get a gold star