##VIDEO ID:irtsLtrr4iU## I think we have mics and we will see it on YouTube [Laughter] Forever oh I have them right yeah I have them right here here's July and here's September you want to look at it okay I think that's July September yeah oh I wasn't here I wasn't I wasn't here for July so y nope yeah all right where did Elizabeth go are we ready yes and we're recording oh good everything's good all right welcome to the historic preservation Commission meeting are um for Monday December 16th 20124 in the uh principal Princeton Municipal Building um 400 Witherspoon Street uh pursuant to section 13 of the open public meetings act adequate notice of the time and place of this meeting was given by posting prominently on the official bulletin board in the municipal complex 400 Withers Spin Street a schedule of the regular meetings of the Princeton historic preservation commission for the year 2024 which posting is to be maintained throughout the year and by transmitting a copy of such schedule to the Princeton packet town topics Trenton Times and com Comcast cable of New Jersey and by filing a copy thereof with the clerk of Princeton New Jersey um Elizabeth do you want to take the roll call yes Miss atfield Mr shatkin here Miss Howard here Mr pile here Mr endersby I'm here miss fredman Mr sha here chairperson capazo here thank you for coming and please help yourself to food and seconds and thirds um announcements uh just want to say our meeting in January is on the 8th and 9th which is a Wednesday and Poss if we need to meet a Thursday um in this room and uh we will go over the rest of the schedule later but I just wanted to point that out um Elizabeth did you have any other announcements yes Madam chair I just wanted to remind the commission I had sent an email out previously about sustainable home Expo which is on March 8th and they had reached out to us again to see if we would like to participate I know that Roger and Charlotte had um sat at the table last year and they had some handouts and and a lot of people appreciated that um the the time is from 11:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. at the Princeton High School so they do have a deadline date of January 10th for us to let them know if someone would like to participate all right thank you all right under administrative matters we have resolutions regarding the open open public meetings act um the first is the 2025 schedule of the meetings calendar um that was in our packet um so I don't think I need to read through any of that the second is the notice of special meetings um and the third is charges to subscribers for meeting notices um so we can vote on all three at once is that correct yes and I just wanted to remind the commission that this calendar is one that starts at 5:00 and it's in the main meeting room I just want the commission to realize that it's not at four we had talked about that unless that you want to have a change um just for January for the whole year for the whole year five o'clock in here okay yep and I did check with the clerk um obviously the council's agenda isn't finalized but I looked at their draft so we chose the dates that it didn't appear that there would be a conflict with them so part of the reason is that this gets recorded and then taking minutes is much easier because you can watch the video it just makes it a whole lot easier for everybody all right um with that those three documents um would someone like to make a motion okay thank you Tom um it's been moved by Tom seconded seconded by Roger all in favor please say I I I oppose motion carried thank you the second is appointment of the nominating committee um and I would like to uh make a motion to appoint Freda and Charlotte to the nominating committee is there a second thank you Tom um I guess you could do a roll call vote sure Mr shatkin yes Miss how board yeah you Mr pile Mr endersby yep Mr Shore chairperson capoli yes thank you for doing that appreciate it now we have the minutes uh SE I think the first one is July 15th um that was a special meeting what's is that a special meeting anyway I wasn't there so I'll tell you who can vote on it um El Shirley's not here El David wow only El and David can vote on the minutes because nobody else was there so is that a real meeting or sub subcommittee or uh yeah it was a real meeting it it's a regular meeting it was July 15 the only two who are here and we're there yeah exactly so do you want to move to approve the minutes also move I'm sorry what was that David I did understand from what we've had situations with Ed that you don't need a form to to approve minutes yeah it could just be okay right okay so it's been moved by El and seconded by David to approve the [Music] minutes yeah I guess a roll call Mr endersby I I Mr sh yes okay thank you all right the J the September meeting we had more people that day um on this one uh myself El David Roger and Tom we can all vote on the minutes for September um and I believe everybody got a copy of these notice minutes in the packet so with that said would someone like to move the approval of the minutes for September 18th thank you Tom um just one correction it says September 2023 is that right yes okay right Ian correct I think that that was September 23 yes right and the other one was July 20124 time flies when you're having fun okay all right it's been moved by Tom seconded by we have El David Roger this is for the September 2023 minutes then the date of the minutes is September 18th 2023 2023 yeah so at this meeting was the 28 Ed Hill to remind people what was on that application right a sec waiting for a second Roger could you speak into the microphone yeah we were waiting I believe on this one for the commission's disposition to be included in the minutes I think we looked at these last last time didn't were there any changes I mean we could we could just take it into January that's fine I don't think that there I I think that we just wanted to make sure that it was correct because the application I think that we just wanted the information to be correct on it that's why it was carried okay so the section that the that edge mirror would add would provide a memo was it added um do he know that what what page you are you referring to page four at the bottom italics from the bottom graph paragraph I believe that was added oh hbc's public comment for EDG Hill or edmir will provide a memo which one right oh edmir will provide a memo those yeah there was just the previous minutes just had a kind of blanket statement uh that the HBC had responded but there was no indication of what the response is so I think this is accurate currently so I would vote for it if it's I'll second it I think it's accurate yeah we're waiting a second I'll provide that all right yes so all right so the ones who can vote myself elich David Roger and Tom um all in favor please say I I forart Harmony opposed motion carried all right thank you all right now we are moving on Julie a quick question yes um since it refers to Ed's memo is that available among planning board documents well zoning board I that was zoning board yeah just I mean in case somebody wanted to follow up and see what yeah I could probably send you a copy of the memo no it's fine I just want to know as long as it's publicly available I'm fine yeah okay thank you y all right we have a resolution of the Princeton Nursery School 78 Lee Avenue uh this was emailed a couple days ago um it looked totally fine to me um would someone like to move to approve the resolution oh thanks David uh second I second thanks Roger all in favor please say I I opposed motion carried thank you all right with no further Ado we will go to the application of King interest LLC 342 and 338 Nassau Street uh building addition with variances and historic preservation plan review jugtown historic district block 341 Lots 14 and 32 and then it has a bunch of numbers okay um Elizabeth did you want to start summarizing your report and then we'll go to swear in the applicants of course so the applicant King interest LLC has filed a major site plan application with fences and an application for historic preservation plan review for improvements on the two adjacent properties identified as 338 Nassau Street block 34.010659 the two properties are in the local and state and National register of historic places jug Town historic district they are also in the New Jersey National register store places Kings Highway historic district which is a 66 foot wide District right away Along Nassau Street also known as State Highway 206 so the applicant proposes to add a one story addition to the back of the existing building at 342 Nassau Street and 342 two is actually the property that sits on the corner of Nassau and North Harrison um so to do the addition the applicant is required to um remove a portion of the exterior wall and rear porch um other improvements include an existing parking lot which will be reconfigured to accommodate this addition and um the driveway will extend to the adjoining lot 388 which is adjacent so that they can have access between the two parking lots shared amenities between these two properties also will include the construction of a new Plaza and the new pedestrian vehicular access um between the plaza and the parking area uh other improvements include um restoration and maintenance work on the existing historic building at 342 nasau um jugtown is classified as type two District on the Princeton historic preservation District in buffers and I think that most of the commission members are aware of this can you hear me alri I I hear the reverberation and every once in a while I recognize a word I'm sorry it's not you room most Commission members are going to recall jugtown only because I believe this summer we had reviewed the property which was across the street which was 344 so a lot of the history of this you should be aware of so I don't want to reiterate that but I'm happy to go over if someone has a question about it um the applicant has provided demolition noticing according to um section 10B 380 SE subsection B 5 and section 10B 390 um that information was provided to Mr Herbert and he finds that they are in order and we can take jurisdiction of this application so 342 Nassau Street uh I think that many of you will recall this application came before HPC a while back when it was um Eastridge design and there were improvements that she had proposed on the property um and we had gone over a lot of the history of this building and as we had talked about that time there was a section of the building that was on the east side which was removed to reconfigure the road there which was ying and the addition or what we call the the wing Edition is added to the left side of the house um this is one of the oldest properties within Princeton it's pre-revolutionary as many of the ones at this intersection are so it is very significant and this intersection is very significant to jugtown um and the the property at 388 as you may recall that was reviewed by HPC as as well which was I think that that came in his King construction same applicant really and he did uh a partial demolition in the rear in addition to an addition and reconfiguring their parking lot and doing restoration on the exterior of the building so the applicant owns both those properties what he'd like to do is he'd like to have access between the two by the extension of that driveway his proposal is to move move the driveway I believe 27 ft north of where it currently exists to be able to do the reconfiguration for the parking with that he is going to need to relocate a utility pole and the services that are on there with the re configuration and connection to the two properties currently they both have Ingress and egress out with the proposed plan the Ingress and egress from from 342 will continue to be 2A however from 388 it will only be ESS with no left turn onto Nassau Street and I believe that the applicant will probably be able to have their engineer talk about that and discuss the reasoning for that I believe it's to reduce the traffic impact um okay so let's just go on to what else there is here um the new parking configuration is going to accommodate six spaces one of which will be a adaa parking stall and loading area the the existing Ada space at 388 will be converted to a standard space instead now um and again as we talked about there are these amenities which are shared which is the new Plaza that's going to be constructed pedestrian vehicular access a bike rack which is going to be in the plaza area and the trash which is the enclosure that has the generator which sits on 388 property um so the plaza is sits between the two shared side property lines it has a semi circular design with a fountain in the middle the material of the sidewalk except for the section just by the circle that's con concrete the rest of it are um sidewalk pavers and we have a sample Le of everything that we can pass around um the there's going to be a bike rack next to the plaza and that's going to be covered the current trash which Services the residential unit on 342 which is located in the back is going to be uh removed again as stated because all the trash is going to be collectively used and the uh building that that houses the generator and trash currently for 388 in addition there are two AC units that are behind the wing Edition that will be relocated to the west side of the building with a new enclosure in it and that is really to redesign the plaza the circulation for the parking and the addition there will be a new uh AC condenser that's installed for the new construction of the addition which is going to be on the east side of the building and that'll also have an enclosure so the I actually could not find the square footage of the building but it's it's not that large uh it's intended to be a conference space in addition to I believe a a a restroom facility in there connecting it to the existing historic building um and if you I don't know if you want me to go through the details of the building or if you want to um move forward with the applicant we can come back to this as well but I'll just briefly talk about so the building has a base Foundation it's going to have a stone foundation we have a sample here they also provide a mortar color that is supposed to uh to be um used with with the stonework the windows are going to be aluminum windows which are the weather shield premium SE series um the windows on the west side are going to be 6 over six double hung with a transm above it which also has a 6 over six fixed transm um unit um and on the east side we there's going to be one of those in addition to the the clar story Windows which are just 3x 2 feet 6 in so it's a much smaller profile on that side the roof is going to be a gable roof standing seam metal roof and there they propos three white decorative roof brackets evenly space along that North elevation um there is a small connector piece from the existing building to this Edition which is going to be just a a flat um roof membrane attached the two all the gutters are going to be 5in white aluminum gutters the door on the dish is a faux Carriage door with embedded glass windows and there'll be two sets of double doors for those on the west elevation there is a 15 pane single door with multi- Pane transm and and one-sided transm I'm sorry one-sided sidelight and Door and Window casings are going to be wood grain mill work um and that'll also that's going to be used for the casing door the stucco so so the question that kept on coming up is I didn't really know what color this Decko was I believe the intent is for the house at 342 Nassau and the addition to be the same color is 388 there was just a lot of different color names and samples so I'm going to defer to the applicant to to talk about that um the one question I did have is I I I wasn't sure if that color is the same as the color of the three buildings at the intersection and the previous color of of uh 3 342 so it was just kind of difficult because I didn't have anything to compare it with and um that is an important component because I know that when that house was painted the darker color it was a surprise the color really unifies that intersection and um my understanding was that it was intended to be returned back but maybe not exactly the same color um improvements to the existing house um there's the main house there's the wing Edition and then there is the um that's it sorry um so the main house um the gable roof is going to be replaced in kind right now it's standing seam the house will be painted the same colors we talked about as the house of 388 um they're going to repaint the window trim and they are going to replace um oh sorry they're going to replace shutters if need be and repaint them as well the and that's going to be in Black Forest Green and the biggest Improvement is really going to be the front porch steps and railing they're going to remove everything except for the foundation on the landing itself and they're going to be replacing it with um the foundation for the steps are going to be a CMU block Foundation reinforc grout uh The Landing itself will remain that found Foundation um the ballustrades will be removed and replaced with an aluminum railing system and at the Landing they talk about the height of the railings are 2 feet 10 in um and the railing system will be painted the same black for screen as the shutters with a with a powder finish the steps are going to have a brick Riser and then it will have a slate um tread and it'll also have a slate Landing as well and on the wing Edition the existing roof will be painted to match the new roof on the main house they will replace the siding with Western Hemlock beveled siding to match existing siding dimensions and they proposed to paint that again the same color as 388 NASA um they're going to be adding new steps in the back of the building and and as we talked about the AC units are going to be relocated to the west side with an enclosure um I'm just going to kind of briefly go through this because there was actually a lot of detail with this project um there is um as part of the site improvements they are going to need to take down 39 the European horn beam which would lines could you repeat that sorry so yes they're going to remove the 39 row of European horn beam which is part of the East rid design which lined the the side property line um and then they're going to add some additional new planting in the rear of the building Foundation planning around that Foundation planning also in the rear West Cottage and behind the property at the the parking lot so the rear property line there are two existing 3-in caliber dogwoods they're proposed to transplant and they're going to be on either side of the um the um the addition one is going to be closer to the to the driveway and the other one's going to be closer to the plaza area uh they have four types of lighting they have a wall mounted scon they have one area lighting which is a kind of like a pole parking lot lighting they have um a recess down lighting and they have a baller lighting as well and there are a variety of variances and waiver reliefs that they're requesting and um I would prefer to perhaps leave this for Mr Kennedy to talk about um I did not have the benefit of a a memo from the zoning officer the engineer um so I might get it wrong but I did have comments on it that I I can discuss later um I think one of the things that I did ask the applicant to do is to kind of discuss what that shared um special treatment so I'll be honest in in prepping for this we weren't quite sure what that meant um there's a comment about a variance for the Center Court area I think is what you described I I I understood that from the zoning engineering that that was something that was going to kind of come up but I actually never heard of it before so I thought maybe it was part of um the open space if it if it if there's a variance required for that element um it hasn't been brought to our attention yet and I know our our planner engineer has been uh discussing this with uh Dan uh Weissman okay extensively we'll we'll explain the uh unrelated and quirky open space requirement there's a pre-existing condition about the size of open space that Apartments need to have and that that's not something that's changed nor is it related to the you know if you want to call it the um the improvements between the two buildings so if there is perhaps it's a preview for us from uh uh from Dan uh maybe through you that maybe there'll be something coming a comment from him or a POS I wasn't sure if it was a variance or a design standard if there is it's not one we've identified or been madew see on your list correct thank you um so what I'd like to do is I'm just going to go through to the comments and recommendations and as I stated we did not have the engineering saring report we didn't have the municipal Landscape Architects report and we didn't have the traffic Consultants report um if this project is classified as a major site that actually triggers um many things um but but this is not one of them the pr preservation area we had talked about this 344 and I think that that is important particularly for Corner line Lots because they're so open and um it really does create a change to the property and the historic character of that property as well so that is one of the things that we did not see uh we feel that that should be something that should be part of some a discussion that HPC has and perhaps discuss an area of preservation which we had also talked about for the other applicant um and again it's because it's it's such a visible Corner um many times when when an applicant is doing work in the rear yard you really can't see as much because as you know HBC encourages development to be in the rear of the property uh unfortunately this rear is their side yard as well or it could also be considered the front yard even though it's not classified that way um when I looked at the the the placement of the front stairs um I just needed the applicant to verify how much it was deteriorated to really to demolish the whole thing I think we had talked about replacement of material you know within the last couple of months how applicants should try to repair it if possible instead of just replacing it so I guess we'd like to know how deteriorated it deteriorated it is and um why if it needs to be replaced could it not be done in kind versus the the material that currently does not exist um there was um a bike rack but we did not see the canopy and I think that that's important to us because that will be visible from Nassau Street and we just like to know what that looks like the kings highway district line should be shown on the plan um there is a bunch of question for the applicant which is under number eight so I'm going to go to number nine which really is for the commission to think about and recommend recommendations that I making for them and for you to decide you know how you want to go with that um I'm going to start with the first one which is a new condenser we installed on the sorry it's actually should be on the east side of the building is in public view um I would recommend if possible for that to be relocated to the west side which is more internal and not visible and with that right now they are required to have a variance for that because their enclosure considered an accessory structure and it violates the setback and as you know the addition and the existing building itself is very close to the road to the right of way so that is going to violate so if there's any opportunity to be able to relocate to the west side of the building that would be better um let's see there were questions I had about the addition the addition is a one-story gable roof which is fairly modest in size but however as we talked about it is a corner lot which is open it has Frontage onto Harrison Street and it's very close to the roadway as the existing building is typically HBC likes additions to be set back you don't want to take the visual significance away from the stor building and even though this is has a small footprint it's so close that it's as you're traveling either way it's your your tension is not going to go to the original store building but you're going to be looking at this building and one of the reasons that you might be looking at is because they do have these double sets of doors on the back which seem a bit out of character for the structure itself and it doesn't seem to relate well to the store building in addition and I would say that that would also be the case of the six over six with the transom six pane windows above it I would feel that if they wanted a larger window I would prefer to see a larger window instead of make it look like a double hung with the transm on top of it it just looks busy for a small building where the original historic building is not that busy so I think that those are just some considerations that that the applicant should consider as far as making the structure itself be more compatible to the historic building and sympathetic in addition to um considering stepping the building back uh again because that might also alleviate one of your variances which is the side and combin side yard setback um and when the project is classified if it is classified as a major site that is when um there is a requirement for archaeological protocol because we know that there was some archaeological findings at 344 we think that that would really be worthy of carrying that out and having that thought about in a PR preliminary analysis so I'm going to leave it at that we can come back to it but I know the applicant has a lot to talk about and and I appreciate okay thank you Elizabeth um and just just to clarify this is definitely going to the planning board yes right so we would be advising um for that okay Mr hert do you want to swear everybody in sure uh Mr Kennedy good evening and I see you have uh two witnesses who we have seen before if we could just uh State for the record who they are and uh we will SAR everybody in absolutely we'll start with my right your left with our architect good evening hi I'm Thomas fanto I'm an architect in the state of New Jersey since 1981 thank you and your engineer James kamalak C hm i e l a k k show resources 360 Nassau Street thank you Gentlemen please raise your right hand you swear the Tes about to give us the truth so truth nothing truth so help you got I do do for the record Mr Madam chair thank you madam chair could we just ask the architect to spell his name for the record it's Thomas fantacone effis and Frank a n t a c o n e thank you all right go ahead Mr Kennedy thank you thank you so much uh members of the board uh and and Elizabeth for your uh introduction and uh memo we did prepare some slides I did learn last month that uh the screen doesn't always work I don't know if there's a a button to turn on we give that a try if not I do have paper copies I'm happy to hand out but maybe we give give the electronic version a it did seemed to flutter on earlier this yeah I saw them on before so I think we're going to be able to see it on the screen um again if not I'm happy to pass out printed versions thank you for I am oh here it is let there be light just yay all right it works thank you and and the The Great Oz back behind the the curtain for uh uh uh fixing our our uh screen for us thank you so much again uh Ryan Kennedy from Stevens and Lee here uh for the applicant King interests um as Miss Kim said uh these properties have been uh coming in for various HBC approvals over the years most recently with 338 that's the building on the left first uh kind of a significant renovation and uh revision to the back of the site and then a few years later as that project wrapped up a uh a lot of discussion about the generator and trash enclosure in the back that actually came in as a separate modification uh and application uh for that uh as well uh coming out of that process actually from some of the town's professionals was this hope that uh the ownership would be able to take control of the property on the corner where they now have and that there'd be some benefits um from a site perspective Ingress and egress uh in in combining the parking lots from a accessibility perspective um we've looked at that for a couple of years and uh the plan here would essentially move the entrance on Harrison further away from Nassau to create more queuing space uh make it easier and safer to get in and out and then by connecting the two to give another option um uh in discussing with staff the plans might note as you've looked at them at the moment that the Nassau Street would be uh restricted to egress uh I think in in talking with staff they're going to have some comments about that and I think it's more likely uh that the ultimate plan would be keep in and out at both places but I I want to say stay tuned physically we're not looking to change the Nassau driveway uh but uh in working with the town's Engineers uh they're not done with their thinking on it yet we we we kind of expect that uh in and out might be the best solution at both creating the most flexibility and reducing the most um conflicts with that with that intersection um similarly uh m Kim noted there's a a a telephone poll uh kind of that would need to be relocated the town is in discussions with some perhaps telephone uh related people that might change that up a little bit as well not the location uh but whether there would be a poll there or not and we're going to be in those conversations as they happen but ultimately uh the desire is to move that entrance back significantly from the the corner for for safety uh uh and and egress the the rest of the program are essentially um um somewhere between maintenance and updates of the corner property again as as Miss Kim said the the intention on our end is to restore the color to what's appropriate uh for the four corners um are and and how to word this as a condition there has been a lot of confusion about the exact name of that color uh and there's a lot of iterations to get to it I think for three 338 uh our understanding is that the 338 and 341 are in fact the same but we're happy to work with staff to to match the correct version uh versus the ones across the other I don't know what the word is Kitty wus you know across the other Corners uh to make sure that they all um perfectly match and then um the addition behind uh to allow for a conference room uh for the commercial uses uh on the corner and some site improvements as we connect the two parking lots um I seem to have touched my computer awkwardly that caused it to uh um so I will not do that again I'm going to go through our slides um I I'm going to start with Mr uh kamalak our our site engineer just to to orient you guys uh the blue arrow here Jim right that's pointing towards the site on the town zoning map correct yes and then going to the next slide we've got our historic map uh with the uh Jud toown District shown at number 17 with the bubbly kind of purple yeah so it's it's within this particular area on the historic map uh next we have some some overheads uh that we got just showing the what I I'll say is the existing condition but actually this existing condition predates some of the work at 338 from these photos so these are meant more for General Ori orentation um Jim you want to just quick describe a little bit what what we're looking at here sure so uh 342 is that corner property in the um basically next to the traffic light the gray building you can see the silver roof uh with the existing parking lot and uh patio area to the rear uh you can see that that parking lot and the existing condition is gravel which is consistent with um the pre-existing condition of a Jason 338 as well as consistent with the previously approved site plan for 338 um and and the intent here was to maintain that consistency um for several reasons Aesthetics number one um also two from a um drainage and infiltration you know um storm water management standpoint having less impervious surface or a more permeable type surface has its own benefits um so we're proposing our plan with rehabilitating the parking area and slightly reorienting it so that you can see at the rear of 342 where the vehicles are uh facing Harrison Street then they would be um basically facing the rear property line and then also the subject building with the Ingress and egress Drive aisle um in between them and I also would like to point out the proximity of this gravel parking lot to the immediate rear of the existing sidewalk so that parking area and the vehicles currently um you know have the ability to uh they're unencumbered in proximity to that sidewalk and that gravel goes all the way up to the edge so we feel that these this reorientation will provide a more uh effective parking area from an Ingress and egress standpoint and also bring safety to The Pedestrian sidewalk that's there um um you know in excess of what's there today so next slide kind of is um side orientation again prior to the revisions to 338 and then that drive you can see on Harrison Street and the lower right hand portion the existing apron would be shifted slightly to the right and if you extrapolated that slid to the right apron you can see the access can easily be made to 338 and this would instead of each property being accessed by only one driveway apron with both in and out traffic it would provide duplicity in that um and multiple options to get in and out of the property from a a volume standpoint even though the the anticipated parking demand is extremely low on this property um that's another benefit of providing to egresses um so next we've got the existing conditions here um at the current sites together yes and that's basically what we saw in the previous slide of the aerial um the previously planted uh hornbeam screening trees you can see along that common property line um that provided a barrier when there were different owners of the property uh since then I think it was at the end of 2020 or beginning of 2021 Mr King did obtain title to 342 um Nassau subject to this application with the intent of making some improvements and facilitating the connection here so relative to those trees um a good portion of them would require removal in order to um make that connection and also facilitate the open hardscaping space or Courtyard area that Miss Kim referred to in the central portion of the property but I would note that you know the applic is certainly open to where possible maintaining several of those hornbeam trees as um we're able to as part of the site plan um and specifically there are several that are in the rear of the site next to the um utility enclosure building that was recently built and those trees that are on the top side of that building as maybe Ryan can highlight there we would maintain um those at a minimum obviously they can't be in the drive VI or in the hardscaping area but if they're you know what we can uh maintain we would make an effort to do that so next we've got uh the proposed site plan and we going to take take the board through this sure so if you you can see the existing building 342 uh outlined in Black shaded with white and then to the rear of that our one-story Edition um in Orange uh which will butt up against the rear wall and you can see the unique um property line configuration along Harrison Street which is on an angle so we have this transitioning of a uh of a sidey yard at that location um the existing building is I think within a foot or so or a foot and a half of the property line um that setback has been increased uh slightly at 3.6 with this orientation so so that that addition can align properly with the existing building um and in the central portion where they meet at the Courtyard area you can see that there's an access to the new one story Edition uh an access doorway right here that would enable Ada access to that new space uh where currently the Ada access is restricted to the building so that's another another ele and then the dwelling unit to the right of that on the existing building um that access would also be maintained and facilitated through um Ingress from the Courtyard area to the left as I mentioned we have uh several parking stalls uh on each side of the access driveway connecting to the neighboring property and then as part of this um in order to uh obtain some efficiency with the parking we have an ADA stall that would be utilized by both uh structures on the property and this would also be facilitated with cross access easements both vehicular and pedestrian as part of a site plan approval uh and we have provided some pedestrian Pathways um to get from one parcel uh across that driveway to the other and then in the vicinity of uh the Courtyard area as well tying into that entrance on 338 the existing building at the bottom so Jim a couple of com comments for or questions for me uh I Believe Miss Kim one of her comments was the one um air conditioner condenser that was you know considered for the Harrison side street of the building you know uh we saw that comment and and talked it through and that's something we can relocate either eliminate or relocate to the uh area where the other condensers are more kind of internal to the Cy correct yeah we can do that that it was placed there just because we were trying to maximize the planting area um in the vicinity of the the bike rack and the AC units but if it's preferred for it to be internal we can look at relocating that um also uh not the I think there's a a question about the number of ADA spaces I guess by by having a combined site plan uh the requirement I guess would be for one total space but it gets to be in a more central location in actually closer to the 338 building than would have otherwise been right and we they would be accessible uh to both build buildings with an accessible route um from from that parking location and uh then shown in green here uh is uh I guess the markup or proposed of the uh preservation area If This Were to be deemed a major site plan that's that's where we would propose uh yeah we we put this together we we we heard the comment understood that it's it's um likely going to be a requirement to delineate an area so the idea here was to include the existing um historic structure as well as the periphery yards associated with it both on Nassau Street uh and fronting on Harrison Street and then that small sidey yard um adjacent to 338 and maybe while we're on this slide there are several variances in design waivers required um ultimately the setback variance is actually one that is less than the existing condition for the the new addition I think there was some question about whether this um connecting kind of paver Courtyard element required a particular variant and um not one that you're aware of U maybe you could explain briefly the existing condition that we have to re um introduce to the planning board uh but of the uh open space requirement for the existing apartment yeah for the existing apartment just from a zoning standpoint we did um provide on our plan that it does comply with the open courtyard area for the minimum space um the only uh issue is that where a minimum of 20 foot um linear dist minimum linear distance of that open space is required we have almost 15 feet so there's a sort of a dimensional restriction of the width of that um and on other projects that has been approved by the board but it does meet the overall gross square footage with this outdoor accessory area and ultimately that's not a condition that's really changed from the existing condition she got a little better right yes um and I think the other uh excuse me waivers are really um with the the uh setbacks to the back for parking those are again kind of existing conditions but ones that we're by kind of cleaning up that area formalizing yes that's correct we're trying to maximize setback to the property lines while still providing um enhanced parking Arrangement which when compared to that existing plan an aerial photo you can see that this is um you know much better from an ARR an arrangement standpoint um so there are some elements of design waivers and and relief just with the park stalls uh and the setbacks relative to that then here we've got a kind of a side by side before and after uh of the proposed U of the proposed changes and reallocation of the of the back of the building correct so that addition is really located um partially over that porch erress stair and that uh walkway at the rear of the parking lot I believe y I touched the computer the wrong way let's see if it comes back in a second sorry I wish I could explain that or had that type of power over other things in my life but there we go um uh so the next slide again kind of a side by side showing where the uh addition is over the existing uh patio that would be uh removed and I I believe with the stones from that with the proposal would be to repurpose those stones uh for the revised front porch if that were to uh be approv for I believe so and our architect can also speak to some of the details of that FR front porch repair um our next slide I'll I'll kind of switch from from Jim over to Tom and he can start talking a little bit about what our plans with the uh uh existing uh building are sure thank you well kind of in a nutshell what we're doing is with this this structure relating it very closely to 338 so the a sense that there's a cohesiveness sort of a complex of buildings that relate to one another and relate to the other buildings on the various Corners so the stucco of this building would be painted we're calling it white down but it's really going to be probably a special mixture paint that doesn't have a name it probably have a number but it'll be related to what was used on 338 which we know what that was so we can replicate it here uh we're also treating the uh shutters this with a a dark green green uh paint black forest green um and the roof will be sort of a charcoal gray dark gray again to relate to the colors used on on 338 um the residential Pavilion to the left connected to the main house the clapboard is somewhat decaying but we'll make every attempt to try to save it uh as we get in there and and kind of look at the the uh what it looks like right now we'll determine what what can be done maybe either to save it or replace it in kind the front porch and stairs where we're looking to reuse the the blue stone or flagstone from the rear of the property bringing it to the front here to reuse it um we had proposed uh more metal type railings aluminum because they're easier to maintain but I I think the uh client would be amenable to looking at possibly trying to repair what's already there if it's repairable um if not we would try to replace it in kind so this is the on the right side is an elevation of the facade of the building facing the new uh conference room facing Harrison the building itself is a little is somewhat taller because the main structures are up about 30 in above grade but the entrance into this new Pavilion I'll call it is at grade so it's already a little bit taller so these transom Windows um provide light on the side of the building but um kind of keep it sort of protected I guess from the traffic on on the Harrison um and you can see the main house really is pretty blank on that on that facade as well so Tom just so this this dash line here that's actually the the floor height as it relates to those well that's um no actually uh let's see well I think that's the floor height of the main building okay yeah understood so our grade level is actually below that this this indicates that the there's a the HVAC equipment will be on the western side and we will protect we will uh screen it with a a a screen made of the same materials as the as the building itself and then painted the same color I know you said we would make every effort to save the sighting but I think this is probably a good view to show some of the some of the condition yeah that's correct this is a view um of the West facade sort of facing the 338 building and the reason for the transoms really are because it's a taller space as I mentioned because the access to this is at grade so it'll be barrier-free into this into this new addition and then to get to the main house you're going up you know five or six stairs I think five stairs to get up to about 30 in which is the elevation of the first floor of the main the main house so the the new um conference room has a taller ceiling it's a kind of a taller structure so we use the transom glass above the six over six lights to kind of uh so that that facade didn't look a little bare and the wind the windows the 6x6 Windows would look a little squatty I think because of that Pavilion being slightly taller so that's sort of the reason for that but we can look at maybe other ways of treating it um you know as we get into the design more more fully but the one other thing I just wanted to mention is the the angles of the roof match the angles of the existing building so there'll be a you know cohesive quality to uh to the structures this is a view of the rear of the main building as it exists today and of course our new uh addition will be uh sort of connected to the back of the building and that uh steps and Patio would be removed this is the uh the north facade of the building um and the idea was to try to replicate a um a carriage house if you will so these would be faux carriage house doors um on the on that side um that was sort of the intent I know there's some concern that maybe it's a little bit um maybe too busy a facade and again we can look at these things but the notion here was to create the idea that the addition is sort of a carriage house the next side we've got some example details of the court in between the two buildings that's correct yes this is a similar you the drawings I think it's a little hard to see whether it' be an upright fountain or not it would really be uh water feature that is uh you know set within the stones there would not be ballards but Tim one that could be turned off it would just be a flat that's correct one of the questions was you know how high of a projection or spray there might be is this going to be like the wer Wilson school um you know where people playing in the in the in the fountain and ultimately it's something that's controllable that's correct yes turned off and be very minimal or or not at all that's correct yes again um we've got the side by side here of existing in photo and the proposed changes uh in in between we wrap up there's a we me go through a couple of comments and and questions um Jim uh there was a question about the the curbing uh ultimately in the approval for 338 I guess it was in compliance that uh you know for for stone driveways uh I understand that the corralling the stone always is an interest uh rather you know otherwise every year as you're plowing it it kind of expands so we were requested to add in um curbing to kind of keep the stone in place and that was approved then and that's the treatment we'd propose for uh the combined site that's correct yeah go ahead so you're talking about 388 right 33 oh sorry 3 3 338 oh okay sorry too many numbers um and that's the second house from the corner right right this this is 338 here okay so I remember the design actually came in with no Curbing and I believe the zoning board requested for the curbing to be put in in addition to I think that drainage that you had at the driveway right um but the but the condition was that it was supposed to be concrete and not Belgian block and the whole thing is curb Belgian block I mean that's that's a different thing but but and I and I understand why You' want to make it Belgium Block now because it was done there but Belgium Block typically is not a material that you would consider an historic material that you would use even you know as you're doing improvements you usually use concrete or sometimes you might use like a um asphalt curve because it's neutral um and that's the only reason I said if you needed to put the curving in which I'm sure it's because of engineering that that concrete would be a better material choice and if there's an area that you didn't need it then we I would encourage HBC to support that okay thank you yeah I think the original plan was to avoid avoid the expense entirely and you i' say that uh Engineers had a different idea for us but ultimately right and I think that it it you know once you start curbing things it looks very Suburban all right thank you um some questions uh about lighting uh the 338 building is currently on on timers and this can be uh set to match Jim I believe there was a couple other um technical questions about the lighting that we can either address or be sure that we do yeah I think there were some details that that we can address on a revised plan um one of the fixtures mounted on the building I believe there's an overhang for one of those recess lights and then we had one on the facade of the building but if there's an issue with um anchoring that recess light on that facade we'll just look at an alternative fixture that okay I just didn't realize it had an overhang I was like how do they put that on the wall the one does yeah AP I'm sure we've missed something we haven't had a ton of time to go through this but uh but I think we had a lot of them yeah um happy to follow up or answer any of the questions that we may have missed we did try to get through as many of the comments as possible all right well thank you we are um probably going to focus quite a bit on the addition bill building um although you know we can always weigh in on parking Arrangements um and we will have public comment um right after the board deliberation um so I did want to give El a chance um first because he was very organized and wrote out his comments thank you U I've had a very ult time hearing so I missed a lot and I apologize if I if I'm repetitious or if I'm if I would somehow missed the gist of some of your of your presentation as a board it my first thought is here we go again and we've been here before um recently you you as the as the HPC we we have a lot of different districts 20 21 in fact very different districts very different discussions very different decisions that we make out of all of those some of them are decisions based on neighborhoods and Landscaping and and cohesiveness within a community occasionally though we do get some that are really that really affect important architecture and important structures um reflecting our local history here and this is one um once again it is in jugtown and that's what we've dealt with a lot this year and it's in jugtown it really is a building it was built in jugtown before there was a jug town because there wasn't a quarry where there wasn't a quarry or a a a a brick making um um possibility within within the that area it has a lot to do with Princeton history before there was a Princeton and before we had a history it goes back all the way back to a Lenny lenapi Trail through central New Jersey which became the King's Highway it dates probably to the same decade when Princeton first got a name Princeton when the real Community with Stony Brook I don't know about when Kingston and and and and uh and was was U designated but initially this this Crossroads was called Queenston or Queenstown it is one of the two or three earliest intersections in Princeton it predates the College of New Jersey in Princeton it predates the revolution in Princeton it has to do with the period when there were Dutch settlers coming in from Long Island and Quakers coming up from Philadelphia who must have noded to each other not speaking the same language as they passed on the on the road in front of the site um the Dutch um were represented very early possibly the earliest building in what's now Princeton is the the Gulick House near Kingston which is on maps drawn in the 1780s it initially belonged to Barefoot Brinston it was in the Gulick house in the 1780s that the Keith line which became the division between East and West Jersey was established um the her house on the other hand on the northwest northeast corner of this intersection uh the Horner house is of of Quaker origin oddly enough they actually crossed the the two jerseys most of the Quaker settlement was in West Jersey most of the Dutch in East Jersey here because of that Highway they crossed um the first Horner dated in this area bought property in 1695 but this house was older than the house that we talked about back in May at 344 across what is now North Harrison um I call it the John Scott house because it was that um During the Revolution when it probably had its greatest Fame one of the earliest features which predates the the house on the other side of marrison is that in this case the kitchen was in the cellar and the kitchen fireplace still exists in fire in the cellar the Bake Oven the opening to the bake oven is still is still there as well supposedly there's a date from about 1730 carved in the wooden lintle over the over that fireplace I can't find it but I did go in last spring and I measured the Sellar and I measured the first floor and I and I I I I I I wanted to know more about what what was original um the stone I think is probably quarried stone that's been stuck out over whether it was initial was I say Quarry was probably Fieldstone it probably predates the Quarry which was actually just down the road behind the F the present Firehouse um in any event because it's parged it's very difficult to know um however there some of the earliest houses the barracks being another is are Stone in Princeton Beach before there were quaries before there were brick houses During the Revolution as I said it belonged to John Scott and it figured at that point not just because of the Battle of Princeton but because in 1783 because of an appid epidemic in Philadelphia the Continental Congress was seeking a place to meet during that late summer and into fall at the very tail end of the Revolution um Trenton wanted to them to relocate there Princeton wanted it here um in order to gain this large assembly assemblage in a small town um they drew up an agreement which was signed by 47 different Property Owners offering spaces in their houses for members of the Continental Congress we lost one about five years ago to the same developers who were who were who twice petitioned for major alterations to 344 the hunter the the her house um through a through series of of mistakes that house was torn down that's one of the other houses offered that still extent or was until about six years ago but this is another the John Scott house was offered and from every indication it was occupied by one of the founders of our country one of the members of Continental Congress we can't prove that but it only adds to its significance not only as an historic structure representing the first years of settlement in Princeton but to one of its most important periods in in its history and I want you to keep that in mind because the decisions that are being made here in many instances have to do with original fabric that has survived throughout that whole history of it of this building um the uh by the by the time we came to consider either of these buildings and what became in jugtown after a quarry after a Brickyard was established there we were looking at what had happened at 338 a few years before um that's a much later house um but in many ways the decisions that were made on that house are favorable to the sorts of things that we look for the proportions the first of all the original House stands still facing the street still on a landscape portion of Nassau Street the addition which is larger than that than than the original is positioned behind it and the roof line is kept low enough that it's really not visible from the street at all um the choice of the of the of the roof line of the of the 6 over six Windows um those are things which are determined by what was part of the original house and I think all of those ref factors that we that we were were pleased to accept will we approved those initial designs only later did I realize the the name of the person who was responsible for that bill King and it's Bill King who's the applicant for this for this project here I started off with the greatest expectation that he had um real recognition of the importance of historic structures in the way in which historic structures can be altered and and and changed uh I finally met him this spring I hadn't met him until after we started this discussion about 344 um I wanted to talk to him because it turned out that he not only owns 338 but he has a major interest in the building across the street which used to be called Queen's court and most recently was Graves architectural firm um uh only then did I find out that he had spent most of his career in Princeton he came to Princeton through Ray Bowers he was a prominent Builder and a longtime resident and generous benefactor in Princeton for many many years he was on the board of the YMCA with my father when he was the president of that board way back in the 50s when they were designing the presid Y YMCA he was later on turns out bill was also on that same board knew my father and as I said was brought here by Ray Bowers um so he again it affirmed my fact my my my decision that I I like the guy and and I expected great things in in his um application for this property um Clifford zinc who unfortunately is in London tonight and Kathy Knight who I thought would be here um and I met with Bill back in May I think it was um sharing our reactions to the de possible development of 344 and seeking some notion as to what he wanted to do with 342 um what he mentioned then was he wanted to incorporate this smaller building in the backyard and he described it as something like a wagon house and I said well you know I'm in the business I could probably provide a wagon house that would be of that size I described the dimensions and in fact that's what we started with um if that had gone through I would be recusing myself as it turns out it didn't and I'll tell you how that happened um the most important thing to me was that that new building whatever building it was would be would be SE separated enough not just physically but in terms of the materials that were available and whatever that it would register as an old building but it wouldn't register as an original part of the of the main structure here um anyway we discussed all of that um the the building in turn in in in question that I was was talking about was a 16x 22t Dutch framed um U uh wagonhouse corn crib that we that we took down in 2006 Dutch well yes in fact the small wing on on 3 42 is Dutch framed as well um one half of the house is is is Quaker the other half is Dutch so it seemed like a good a good um juer position in any event um bill is a very busy guy he's got projects all over the W all over the but not just the the west but in Europe as well I is that where he is tonight specifically I I I don't seem to know more about than me anyway we Des we dropped our discussions in July but the two of us had spent three hours just enjoying each other's company and and and and whatever it was he asked then whether or not he could bring in his architect um and as far in terms of being an architect of record um and having um you know discussions about design I had no problem with that I did ask that um the drawings and the model that I had provided him be shared with the AR architect and then in turn any designs which have been created would be shared with me the reason why I'm not recusing myself is that neither the building nor any of the suggestions I made are reflected in any of the material that has been presented this evening um I wanted to discuss my reaction um as a member of HBC um we of course I I I did not get any plans I don't know whether my plans were shared at all because they're not reflected at all in the designs we've seen um however um I was I my expectation was Bill said he would be back here in December um unfortunately because he's working in the aisle of of gery I think this week he's not here but in any event we were supposed to be meeting about the hill project um this and another for another um special meeting here in December that got postponed and when it got postponed Bill's plan was Advanced to be vetted this evening and as soon as I heard that I got in touch with him and I said I haven't even seen the other plans when are you going to be back he said the 9th of December um I said we have to discuss this this isn't this is not a conceptual um um hearing here here this is this is the real thing this is something we vote on and once it's voted on um that's it you have to you have to start all over again um oh no no no no we can make we can make we can make changes after the fact I said no bill we can't make changes after the fact um that that would that would that would if I were you I would see if you can make this a a a hearing about about the Poss possibilities of the project rather than the the final plan that has not been the case I am we have seen a lot of Architects here and some few of them really get historical architecture are really fascinated by old buildings and the discoveries you can make when you really scrutinize them they are um aware of materials that are appropriate they look for evidence where it doesn't exist so that anything which is missing from the original fabric can at least if it's replaced be replaced correctly I've seen none of that here um these are two Timber frames I'm mentioning the the wagon house even though it's been taken off the table by my by my dictate my suggestion um but because it's a timber frame and so is the in the internal structure of of 342 I see no comp apprehension of what Timber framing is all about there's not in the plans for the for the addition there's not one single Timber shown in its original location the doors are not where the doors were located the windows are not where the windows were located the roof line has been changed the there's it's a Dutch frame it is a series of H bents anchor bents which is this which is the the the the basic format of a Dutch building that's been completely ignored if the plans were ever sent sent to the architect I don't know um the it to my mind it doesn't make any attempt to accommodate Princeton history and the validity of the original building um it doesn't seem to address the neighborhood and the it doesn't seem to address the streetcape witness the building jutting almost out to the sidewalk it it the placement is immediately behind the original main building um and it it blocks out most of the light coming into that building it's so close to the building that that it there's this this strange um um configuration between the two but they don't they don't relate at all the scale it it's lost the proportions because none of the none of the apertures are where they should be nothing the materials it's stuck outed to make it look like the like the main house it should be it in my view it should not be the same material it should be different it should be differential a different different different materials different aspects so it's obvious that it's not part of the original Landscaping all that that surface landscaping around the periphery is just it's it's wrong it's not the sort of thing that would go around a wagon house it not it would not be it was it's not appropriate um it's too close to Harrison Street I've mentioned that I've i' played with this enough to to to to my sense was you would push it back so it would relate more to the size scale and and and and proportions of the of the addition the Dutch Edition on the on the original house and would leave the the area immediately behind the the stuck out Building open with with light and and and some sense of landscaping between that between the building and the street I I I I I honestly think this the placement is is is mistaken um let me see if I can get through this um the main house I know this is near and dear to Bill's heart but that front entry is monstrous um it's the material is masonry he says he went around and photographed about 30 buildings with with masonry Stoops that's fine but did he select buildings which were which had any bearing on a structure built this early no and there are structures that are available throughout the area which would which with some with probing in the St stuck stucco might reveal original placement none of that's been done the Treads are too deep they're 12 in deep the the the the the materials the brick the Slate the the metal all of that is is is not is is not correct for the period the the metal railings apparently die into the shutters I don't know quite how that's how how that's supposed to terminate um it but it's it's awkward um I know the shutters were replaced in 1974 cuz my business partner is the one who did them um I'm almost done I believe believe me I'm sorry but what's more we have no purview over the interior but but I bring up the interior because there have been major structural changes there which are which will not work with a with a with an in with a Oak Timber Frame um the uh for some reason I know because Bill doesn't like those stairs the the the staircase has been extended down toward the central doorway in The Parlor in the front room to do that you would have to change the timber frame underneath that floor the floor on the second floor the floor to the attic those he there's no sense of of the ramifications of one decision that that gets that gets passed on and it's a timber frame these are Timbers which are this is a wooden timber frame it's the wooden timber frame which was part of this building from the time it was built over you know 250 years ago this is this this is a bad attitude and I don't I I I I think we deserve better um I just don't I'm going to cut out some of this but it's it this this project has to be reviewed I I I I speak for myself but I I hope that my that my comp compatriots here recognize the fact that they're just too many inadequacies here and that there just has to be there has to be a a lot more attention paid to the to the historical and Architectural sign significance of this build building um appreciate your time sorry to take so much of it thank you thank you Al I'd like to open up uh the floor to the other um commission members uh comments um especially regarding the historic house and the addition you want to go ahead you have to talk into the mic microphone cuz it's especially important because our lawyer had to leave and so he's going to be watching the video in order for him to hear it on the video he has to be able to hear us and it's only through the microphones okay um I'm I'm going to make a couple of comments that I hope are useful um I like and respect that you know a lot of effort was put into this um the um in particular I like that that indent where the hyphen is to kind of separate the old from the new that's a that's a classic um separation that I think works in a lot of places uh the scale of the addition well putting it in perspective compared to some other projects that have been brought to us um feels good and and not overwhelming and and I think that's very encouraging um but I think it's actually more about the the details this time uh the details always always make a difference um let me start with some observations uh one is about the the proposed color scheme being based off of the uh the building next door which is a different period a different style a different time um I don't quite understand the desire or the belief that that's the right thing to be doing I think think it should come to its own color scheme and um color is also one of those things that can be changed and made better or change with more research number two on my list here is um the the addition I think is actually trying to be larger and finer than a a a structure that would then have the um the carriage doors on the back of it I think actually they should have doors that relate to to humans and not trying to to be that the space is a a a barn or something um separate from what I didn't know that El was going to say um there's a a a problem that that really jumps out to me and I I call it the um the band of um stone veneer that's like a base around uh a lot of this new construction part of it and I don't know where it actually comes from the stone that's on the site that kind of looks like it might be trying to relate to is to a new back porch that dates to within the last 20 years of the building and to the Garden retaining wall that the Department of Public Works put up less than 10 years ago I I think that that is a detail not to be repeated into the new section of the building and um I do like I really do like and admire the idea of pushing that in the entrance back another 27 ft I think that you know you get gold stars for that and um if the carriage house doors were to remain what goes up to them is it going to have like like the idea that you'd be taking animals in and out or carriages in and out it they just kind of end there and um that makes them feel very made up or or kind of false those are my comments I hope they're useful in some way thank you thanks David are there other uh questions or comments um yes please go ahead so thank you very much for all the effort uh coming into this I want to just say how much I appreciate my colleagues uh historical comments it's so important uh to us as a board to have this deep knowledge as we do and so I'm very grateful uh for your comments particularly about the reference to the Scott house and the possibility that founding fathers may have lived in that house so that highlights the historic importance for me uh my thoughts are probably much more prosaic but um I have a couple things in mind one is uh relating to um some of the outdoor construction and relating to uh the other uh element that may influence but it's not our purview but it's something we always have to consider so I had first would like to ask a question to Elizabeth is this particular property within the overlay of the affordable housing overlay it is okay so affordable housing is then a uh secondary but important concern um secondary but important concern is the affordable housing piece for the addition what is the square footage of the footprint of the uh addition please it's approximately 500 square F feet 500 square feet so um what I'm thinking is sometime in the in the future whether there would or I should first ask are there any apartments in either of these buildings there are one one apartment perhaps is it there's in the existing building there's one apartment yes and that would be in 338 perhaps 338 I think there are two no there there's one in the corner building has apartment and there are several in the uh so my concern is simply a remote one but that is would there ever be a opportunity to create more affordable housing on this particular property not in this plan so I would surmise but there could come a time when you would be asked or would figure to put a extension on the top of the addition that you are suggesting now uh are the plans here contemplating any possibility structurally that that could be done no at this point it's just a one story structure so uh just keep that's some consideration my other thought is about the courtyard uh I didn't quite understand this and I'm wondering how thises this integrate with the historicity of the property and then you put up the picture of the Nassau Panera Bread Courtyard and then I thought wow that is just not at all consistent with the history or the shape or styling or or aspect of the neighborhood I would hardly wish to see a fountain an Italian Florentine Fountain uh we know with thick Cobble bricks and so on uh in the passageway between these two buildings that would be at least to me very jarring uh as a uh moderately interested historically minded local citizen so I don't know and I appreciate the desire to try to integrate and hyphenate the two buildings together but uh I'm not sure I'm I don't know how a fountain will play into the historicity of the property small aspect uh mentioned the curbing Belgian block curbing cement curbing the if there is to be curbing I'm just looking at the uh thank you picture in your presentation and I see that there's just Blu Stone curbing something like that would be more muted in historic but uh even no curbing would might be better just to make it historic okay so I think these are my main comments thank you thanks Tom any anything else um I'll just put in my two cents um I agree that the uh the historic nature of the house 342 I feel like is not really being understood and that the addition is more of a detraction as it doesn't really relate at all to to the neighborhood to the house and that um there seems like uh a disconnect between the neighborhood and the the stonework proposed that it it's not really in keeping with the what's going on in the rest of the area so and to David's Point perhaps there could be a sort of a technical process to find out the original colors of the house and at least have that understanding of what um what it might have been originally that's possible uh the front steps I agree putting stonework isn't um appropriate and this is a very important house that I feel needs to be maintained in the in this District um so my recommendation is to come back for a concept review which we do for free and very uh often and working out um maybe some things beforehand but my sense is I don't feel like you guys are ready to go to the planning board um any other comments otherwise oh go ahead I just um have a comment on really I agree with everything everybody else said and the one of the first things that we learned in design school was do your research on the building and occasionally I see and and you know I'm sure a lot of work went into this you know you see one sheet of drawing and nobody else knows what it took to get that one sheet of drawing so I appreciate the work but that was the first thing I learned I know more about allergies that I want to know because of a project so that's the first thing that I feel is supposed to be done especially a historic building and as everybody said it definitely seems so disconnected and just random that you know you would put barn doors on the back and the drawings aren't really clear where exactly parking will go you know there's all sorts of distractions on the drawings and and yeah I think coming back for a concept review would be a good thing because it's a small structure and it seems like an afterthought but it's a very historic building and it needs to be respected all right Roger yeah I just wanted to add a couple things uh Elizabeth talked about how busy the the current Courtside design of I guess it's the west facing facade of the addition is and it does try to to mimic too closely the 6 over six lights um I would say that you could look to uh 338 for um some good examples of how new structure was a new structure was put up uh that doesn't exactly mimic the old structure but references it I'm looking at the East facade of 338 where there's a a wooden door with two Sid lights which is like nothing else in that building but it it fits in uh because of the size and the scale of of the the opening and and the lights in a way that is uh seems appropriate to to the the new building and the old building it's not an easy thing to do to make it uh new construction that both reveals itself as new but fits in scale-wise and uh in appropriateness with the with the old building but you've got a a great example next door I think thank you other commission members I think we I have yeah oh El has more um the first of all as some brought it before that um the buildings should be treated differently they to paint them all the same color is is like a corporate campus and the whole thing about a neighborhood is that each building has some personality of its own and I I'm all in favor of that um but the more serious thing that I forgot to mention structurally I thought this we we laughed when we first heard about it last spring when Bill said oh this back wall I'm just going to have this knocked out it's a stone wall on the first floor and it shows up it still shows up in some of the documents we were we received that between the one window near the corner fireplace and the and the other side of that room there's a 10-ft opening and there's no provision oh don't please bring up steel that to support the rest of the building and that is original Fabric and that that does deal with the outside surface that's enough all right at this point I think I'll open it to the public comment um did you want to go to the microphone thanks um hi is that on yeah okay hi so I'm the member of the public um hi I'm speaking as another neighbor um of the directly impacted by these properties um who hasn't come up yet I apologize for coming late I came directly from Manhattan to attend the meeting and missed unfortunately the first part of the presentation but there's a number of us who live on Evelyn place um include where our properties are directly adjacent to these two prop I I hate hate to but I think we should if someone could swear her in and get her name for the record of course my name is Julia mnak together Julia j l i a last name mnak m a St t n a and together with Princeton University I own three Evelyn place and then I'm also here speaking on behalf of my neighbors at one Evelyn place and Neighbors at three Evelyn place and other neighbors who we've been in conversation with but haven't been had a chance to be here I'll say we're actually not allowed to take testimony from anyone but you obv obviously I'm just mentioning that we're all in conversation CU other names have been mentioned of our neighbors who we also talked to who are involved in jugtown um who I also work with with Kathy and others who we thought might be here today and I'm not a lawyer I'm not an architect and I understand that some of the things that are of our concern might not be directly um relevant excuse me oh we have to swear her in we have to swear her in Julie do you want to swear her in sure I guess um do I'm not a lawyer so is anyone here happen to be a notary or an attorney other than myself you know me can you do it all right so I if ran you know me you've dealt with me a lot you know me very well do you know me personally you know my journey you know me very well who I am I'm just saying I'm the only one in the room who's entitled to take so if you wouldn't mind raising your right hand say if you swear or affirm I swear or affirm thank you okay thank you yes so um just a few things um about this so some of us who live in historic buildings that are directly adjacent to this project and have been impacted by it in multiple ways over the years since this first began um and we haven't had a chance so basically if there's um we haven't had a chance to see any drawings or I only got something in the mail on Friday um about this hearing or maybe it was Thursday I'm not sure which day so um we haven't we just had a rushed conversation back and forth has anyone seen anything no one has so at the very least we'd like to see what's being proposed um I came here too late to at least see this presentation tonight um because this all impacts on us um in multiple ways you know we don't see in these drawings what's happened also below the ground which I don't know is in the purview of the HRC but a lot happened underneath the ground in 338 um that impacted on us we have you know Gardens and buildings and basements that have been impacted by um all sorts of things that um I won't really get into here um I was also wondering um because I don't know if this came up before and this may not be HRC but is there a shift in the amount of permeable and impermeable cover of the land um with the change of the um parking lots I I don't know that's something that's of concern cuz I remember that being a key concern um in the original permit um however ever many years ago that was um and um yeah and so sometimes it feels like there's been a number of kind of rezoning by Amendment again I'm not an expert excuse me if I'm getting the words wrong like when a um uh industrial strange generator was going to be put on my neighbor at number one's um property line and we had you know we kind of fought that back this is a residential neighborhood this is our historic Street on Evelyn that is directly um impacted by every by es that are being preserved and we just want to um make sure that our our voice is also or our at least eye on things is at least um taken into account as part of what's underway here um in terms of affordable housing I don't believe that was accurate about three Apartments being in um 338 just again my vague memory um of that I'm not sure that that was correct but not my direct concern all that we ask or I ask personally for myself as a directly adjacent neighbor is that we have a chance to View and look at um what's going on and to have our input being taken into consideration these are historic homes um that are impacted by these decisions being maken out taken um by you and by King Enterprises thank you thank you so much I mean for the record the plans are that we have are on the website yeah on the municipal website for this meeting right so the website um does have a link to to the meeting materials um but and we appreciate your comments thank you I don't think there's anyone else here from the public so thank you for speaking I think we'll go close public comment and go back to our board um deliberations um Elizabeth did you have anything else you wanted to mention I think that the comments that came from HPC were pretty much unified I'm just wondering if the attorney knows if the applicant would be considered come back to HBC for review for some of the changes that you talked about that you'd be willing to do and maybe anything else well I I suspect that we're going to be needing to make changes once we see comments from the planning board but ultimately our goal would be to get um your comments so that they could be considered um one particular area where there seems to be a bit of a uh maybe there's some um unanimity on this side of the Das but very different from the memo is as to color so I I I I I think I heard from everyone on on your side of the table um that the consistency of the corners is perhaps not the concern but the desire would be to to create a a historic independent color scheme if I had that right but that I think otherwise the the the comments were generally consistent between the the recommendations and um what I heard here today but that was one area where it was definitely different or possibly different I would like to clarify that's possible I think um we were just suggesting that we'd have information on perhaps um doing a color analysis of the um building at 342 so that um you know we might have known what what its original um facing was I would like to say one thing about color um and I believe it was mentioned by perhaps David Mr sha that to try to unify the color between those two buildings I don't think is important or it's not necessary and it shouldn't be because it's almost saying okay I own both these properties because we have the same color or because our driveway connects and because our parking lot is is is is Unified I think it's actually important to see them as separate buildings which are identified to their period which the is not the same so um that's just generally the comp comparison between the color between those two buildings okay appreciate the CL clarification I was reading your initial comment no but I but I felt that the color was important I know that when it was Chang Chang the darker one everyone was pretty surprised because it really had the the the unity of those four buildings were kind of emphasize that intersection um but if the commission's saying that they feel that maybe they just want to know what the real color is you know what was the true color I mean thank you all right my question is to you madam chair and that is to ask um are we going to be asked tonight to then make either an up or down recommendation to the planning board or uh do we have the possibility if the clients so agree to delay until there's further development from their side to bring back to us I think that's up to the applicant uh so um my my request would be to get the comments in the form of a memo so we could try to address them that would be my request so they are is that to say that they're asking us to vote this to recommend or not to the planning board tonight yes yes okay all right so um I'm just wondering if we should go through the list because a lot of these things weren't touched upon these are the comments I made for HPC and just so we could get it on record and perhaps on the memo too we could go through those if the the commission was okay with it um so one of them has to do with I think that there was an agreement that uh the commission felt that the position of the bill building is better if it's pushed away from North Harrison Street and perhaps even partly attached to the West Wing but definitely pushed away so the historic building can be more visible and prominent is that correct um I'm just trying to go through I mean I think the main emphasis of El's points is number one the addition isn't um as it's right as it's designed right now isn't acknowledging or appropriate to the historic building and the second thing is that the introduction of new materials to the historic building is also not appropriate um and I think the third thing is that we know more about the history of the exterior color of the house um and I think the fourth thing is that there's not a real understanding of the backyard layout with the fountain the side yard this is not really a clear concept and that um so there's not enough Clarity okay I think the first one we talked about that when when you said that it's not appropriate I guess maybe what we need to Pro provide a little bit more information about that for the memo well um yeah El was saying that uh a clad wooden building um that it didn't necessarily have to be a stucco building so so non- repetitiveness of of existing material make it different just like the secretary Interiors right I mean you you don't want to mimic it so you don't want there any confusion to be what's originally historic and what the addition is so that's why often times you'll see a building that the material is different but the proportions work out you might they might use a similar roof like a gable roof however um definitely definitely understood the both in concept and actually very much appreciate Madam chair how you how you um express it there I think that's a very clear direction for us much appreciated okay um is there anything else and then the the the window treatment I don't think anyone was very happy with um of the addition okay proportionately the style proportionately and also the style um so that the guidance would be to look at um actually what what happened next next door at 3:38 that that that addition um has new windows and doors that are harmonious with the historic building okay um and then the other thing is I believe that the barn doors those are just inappropriate right that I mean the style doesn't go with it and MH okay and how about the other door which was a door with the transm and the sidelight same as the window yeah okay apologies just so I can understand that last Yeah well yeah apologies the the interior the de the door fa 338 with the transm I just the west side yeah that's got the um that's got the 12 pain and then and it's got the multi- pain transm and then the sidel which is also multi I guess the comment would be to simplify that treatment is that okay thank you just want to make sure I got it Y and then I'm just trying to list things that we can help Mr Herbert pinpoint the comments that he wants to add to the memo as far far as the the plaza area goes that's just something that's not appropriate for this historic district well I think it's the materials in the geometry used and is it also the fountain too yeah well yeah um but um um there is one comment that I wanted to touch on there is a very large walkway I believe it's like 15 ft wide that goes from 338 NASA from their side door door that is their cross access to 342 so I mean I'm just wondering why is does that have to be so wide and it is the pavers yeah that's true um and as a positive we thought moving the entrance away from the intersection of Nassau and Harrison would be a positive and also allowing traffic on both sides because that corner really gets jammed up um so if they could exit on uh I mean exiting that property is is difficult at rush hour it's just plain difficult so I I think having more options or keeping it away from the intersection is better okay so so the positive is the relocation on the driveway North right from the intersection okay I think yeah I think away from Harris Harrison I mean it takes I don't even know how long to get right public traffic backs up pretty bad on that road and again the planning board will be dealing with a lot of these other issues I think I want to focus mostly on the historic qualities because I think that's the uh the benefit we give is to advise on on this aspect of the application okay um we're going to get to it later but there 's a list of variances and waivers that I made recommendations on but one of them the recommendations or I believe that it's a requirement design requirement that they require parking and driveways to be paved right I mean my thought is that gravel is more appropriate if it's allowed versus Paving it we would certainly agree with that that that yeah I I I think there'll probably be a whole other discussion on storm water and and what is perious and impervious but I mean visually for his for a historic district I would think that gravel if if we could just to clarify because I think there may have been a confusion on our part about your recommendation so you're you're the you you the recommendation of the board I guess on that is that gravel is probably appropriate is that that's my opinion I feel that more we obiously read your memo differently than yeah yeah yeah because they were saying that you need a uh maybe I wrote it wrong I yes okay oh appreciate the clarification there okay right um so anyway I think El went over a lot of the um disconnect okay that that we all found between the storic property and the changes um um can we talk about the curbing which is proposed with Belgium Block curbing yeah we would not support Belgian block okay um if if um it was required would you prefer concrete slate asphalt I mean I I think we've recommended concrete for 388 or 3 38 so they didn't have any curbing the zoning board made them for curbing in oh okay so they okay but they yeah so it does the the commission agree that Belgian block is is not supported and that they prefer concrete or I think maybe the word to say it is simpler simpler the better yes yeah yeah okay let me just see here um we talked about the curbing um and the applicant presented a preservation map is that something that the commission agrees with or because there's really nothing in there that talks about the back there's no preservation behind the building and one of the comments obviously that Elward made is that there should be the reason that that addition is not appropriate is because it is not giving the visibility of the back of the building I almost heard that great I mean I definitely think um that we would be open to seeing various approaches um but yeah we would in general it it seemed like um we're just looking at this application and in this particular case right it was infringing on the histor right so but for this one for the preservation area map what would you envision to be included in the back of anything I mean the reality is the there are Vistas on um at least two if not three sides of the building so um you like Al was saying we usually go with a streetcape and encourage additions to be in the back but since this is so visible there's there's really nowhere to go you have to but obviously where the building is proposed right now is not acceptable so I'm just wondering is there going to be a section that's carved out where HBC is going to say this preservation map should contain 10 ft 15 ft from the building and inside the property to be able to protect that historic area within the building to be able to retain that hysteric character well I I don't know I mean what do people think I mean is should have building an addition be allowed to connect with the historic building or I think it has to be connected yeah but I think that it's where it's connected I think that's the thing but it has to have some distance to it and there are I'll share plans if if if I did draw up an alternative might be of interest okay but I I think that we need to have it so we can talk about it because the applicants going to want to know what's going to be presented just one I mean the current porch and the stairs are not historic or historic looking I Roger can you talk in your microphone I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm just saying I'm looking at a picture of the rear of the building the the north facing part of the building and uh currently that's not a historic the back is not yeah I mean the existing conditions are not anything to write home about I mean yeah the treatment of the back of the building is not necessarily I mean and and the top story is kind of vernacular it's not you know there's a big disjunction between the front of the back and the back um so I mean I could see something being accommodated in the back right yeah I I think there's a flexibility there we're not sure yeah and I think it would be an improvement over the could be an improvement over the current conditions right sure sorry so I I just want to note again that we're talking about the back as if it doesn't impact anyone else but that impacts directly on the property lines and of the historic homes on Evelyn my property um in particular shared with Princeton University is one of those so it's not as if it's not impacting on anyone because it's in the back of this particular building and then also maybe not the HRC directly but there was much discussion about what could and could not happen in the back current parking lot and what was allowed and was not allowed at the time of the original permit so I just want to note that all right thank you yeah I do feel like this the whole um that whole area in the in the back is very much exposed and very much um affects the rest of the street so absolutely we agree that that has a high impact what happens behind into the side of the of the um Ryan could you map up again the one that you had the um to show up on the screen but I don't have that uh that button you know you're sitting 3 feet from me and I can't understand anything when you're speaking at that microphone oh really do we have that image in the package and we could have been sitting around one table I know I know we could have been understanding each other so are thinking of like the image that's called 18 I just want the commission to recall what that area was so if you're going to agree with it then you know we want to be clear but if you feel there should be a different delineation then we should talk about it now because if that should be part of the prese presentation in the memo to the planning board cuz if the HPC says well you know we feel that it should include part of the rear and side area then it gives the applicant a better indication on where appropriately they should place that building but if we just said well we can talk about it it's that doesn't give them guidance well well I mean there have been significant changes to the to that that facade right um and I think that you know I think there's something about um a structure that's solid and the structure that's open to the way it impacts this the historic building the the slide that's up on the screen now is the site plan that has the proposed area that that has the the front front and sidey yards and because the rear line of the building is how we so it's the green line right Brian so it goes along the front and side of the property line and then it cuts right to the face of the the most projecting part of the building and then go straight across basically is it two separate properties still no just one what sorry both they are owned sorry the both both properties are separately owned and and titled they have't merged if that was the question and is the merging going to be part of this application or no not no so there are no setbacks between the two properties correct because they're not okay okay so there there's the historic preservation area which they recommended [Music] what no no so the top uh road is North Harrison and the right is nasau I mean you know the it's you don't yeah so the one that might be impacted is where it says 388 existing building that's the adjacent property at 3 338 33 behind it's only partially shown the other Residential Properties would be below offscreen this just shows the there's no work proposed or changes um to that part of the site right but it's right next to one right the part of the plan that does not involve any changes is is next to that property that's correct all right so what do we think so anyway I just think that our recommendation to the planning board should be that we would ask the applicant to uh approach the addition um differently informed by our discussion and that the um especially the front approach of the House of this stor house should not the porch where they were going to put the slate and all that that that should um be reconsidered and I think the applicant or agreed that they would replace in kind if needed for the front porch is that correct was that the comment made yes if it if if it can be Salvage that would be that'd be fine no I know they like was confused before I thought me put the ramp in and the changing the door so are there other comments or questions if not I think um I think we'll just wrap this up then Madam chair can I just go over some of these variances and waivers that with the recommendations so at this point we would not recommend the variances any of them except for changing the entrance okay I don't think that that was a variance no okay okay um so but you're saying that you're not going to recommend any of the variances or design waivers uh correct given the discussion okay any other any other questions all right so thank you so much for coming we really appreciate your input uh we hope we'll be seeing you again have some food thank you so much and and happy holidays thank you all right so that was the last item on as far as applications um we do have more public comment time available for other issues if you want want to tell tell us anything else other than that we're going to go to a staff report I just want the HBC to know that the RFP was issued and we had received four proposals from consultants and the subcomittee has selected one which will be presented as a recommendation to the mayor and council at their Thursday meeting this week so we are hoping for that to be supported for HBC and if they are we very excited because she's the best of the best when it comes to Z Ein lines so right so we're really hopeful we'll get the that approved any other reports um if not is there a motion to adjourn okay Tom second okay second thank you so much everybody we're done yeah let's eat