##VIDEO ID:1CiBUP23VeA## good evening and welcome this is a regular meeting of the Princeton planning board on Thursday September 19th 2024 pursuant to section 13 of the open public meetings act adequate notice of the time and place of this meeting has been given by prominently posting the resolution of regularly scheduled meetings of the planning board of Princeton for February 2024 through January 2025 a copy was filed with the clerk of Princeton on January 8th 2024 legal notice on the adoption of said resolution was published in the January 12th 2024 edition of the Princeton packet notice of this meeting also has been posted to the municipal website Princeton nj.gov calendar notice that all regular and special meetings of the Princeton planning board will be held electronically via Zoom was transmitted to the Princeton packet and the times and was filed with the clerk of Princeton on Tuesday January 17 2023 please note that this meeting is being recorded during hearings on applications for development members of the public will have an opportunity to comment and ask questions questions may be asked after an applicant's Witnesses have testified public comment is heard by the board after an applicants Representatives have finished their presentations and have been questioned by board members and staff those wishing to comment orally should virtually raise your hand by clicking on the reactions button or the raise hand icon con at the bottom of your Zoom screen or if participating by phone by pressing star n oral comments will be taken in the order in which hands were raised we ask with respect that members of the public express your views in three minutes or less a countdown clock will be used to help speakers keep track of time and speakers who exceed three minutes will be interrupted inappropriate public comment containing obscenity hate speech or relating to matters not before the board will be muted Carrie will you call the role please uh certainly Mr bimer here M capoli here Mr Cohen Mr mcowan here miss Nuka here Mr odonnell here miss pearlmutter here miss sax here Mr Taylor Miss Wilson Anderson here and miss Mrs Wilson here we have a quorum thank you um next up we have announcements Justin yes I know you have one yep thank you madam chair and good evening members of the board and members of the public uh I'm pleased to announce that the open space Recreation and conservation element of the master plan has been accepted as consistent with green Acer guidelines by the State Department of Environmental Protection uh this is a prerequisite for State green Acres open space funding and had previously lapsed in 2021 though the uh D gave us extensions while we were working on uh the master plan so we were still able to get that funding but we knew it was going to end if we didn't uh if we didn't update the the master plan um there was never really any concern about not getting this uh uh consistency as we intentionally created the open space element to be in compliance with green acr's requirements um we just needed all the approved minutes of the hearings to send into to the state and the final ones were adopted by the planning board at your last meeting uh so the Green Acre certification is valid now until 2033 yeah that that is really good news and and I very much appreciate you're putting it to bed so rapidly I think it was all tied up with a bow by noon on Friday after our after our last meeting and I know that it's uh a very big deal for our partners with uh friends with Prin an open space um uh because that you know they rely on that for for their grants as well so thank you thank you um any other announcements from board members or from staff seeing none um on to subcommittee reports I'm pretty sure we have none is that correct that's correct okay then on to findings effect we have five uh the first is um ala Patel penu this was a minor subdivision at 1082 Princeton Kingston Road file p2323 d369 Ms um and HPC number 46hp d223 any questions or suggestions related to these minutes and if not would someone resolution sorry oh excuse me I'm so sorry resolution findings of fact thanks Carrie um would someone like to move them still move I'll move to approve oh sorry go ahead but I moved by Julie uh seconded by Owen I saw his hand go up I'm sure somebody else spoke to but um so um Carrie would you call the role Please Mr bodimer yes Miss capoli yes Mr mcgaan yes Miss Nuka yes Mr odonnell yes Miss PE mutter yes Miss saxs yes Mrs Wilson yes motion carried good um let the record show um Mr Cohen is joining us now um our next um resolution is estate Shore this was carried from our meeting earlier in the month it's a minor subdivision with variances at 479 Jefferson Road this is file p23 23-43 Ms and I understand there's a bit of an edit here is that correct U Mr leco you want to yes it is madam chair thank you um so I'd like to read into the record a recommended change in language at the bottom of page one uh the last line States the house on the Eastern lot will continue to front on Kyler road with a front porch that intrudes into the setback as described in the variant section below uh I'd recommend removing the last six words and replacing them with quote permitted by the zoning ordinance end quote so the last line would then read the house on the Eastern lot will continue to front on Kyler road with a front porch that intrudes into the setback as permitted by the zoning ordinance great um would someone like to move the resolution with that minor Amendment uh moved by Mr Cohen seconded by Mr bodimer um Carrie the role Please Mr bimer yes Miss capoli yes Mr Cohen yes Mr McOwen yes Miss Nuka yes Mr Ojon yes Miss pearlmutter yes Miss saxs yes Mrs Wilson yes motion carried um I just want to take a minute to thank Justin and um other staff uh including Dan Weissman and um Taylor Sapar and perhaps Mr Bridger as well uh for meeting with one of the neighbors and addressing some questions and concerns that they had um that's important and I appreciate that you guys did that um the next resolution is from the trustees uh regarding the trustees of Princeton University this was a site plan minor site plan with variances at 112 114 and 116 Prospect Avenue file p2323 d433 PM any comments or Madam chair I'll be abstaining from the vote okay thank you and also miss NAA yes that's right correct okay um so actually Carrie uh just a matter of it's not really an exension it's it's a recusal so not be called upon qualifi you would not be called okay so she won't call your name you will not you will you there's no need for an AB I promise okay good um any other uh thoughts or suggestions related to this resolution and if not would someone like to move it I'll move this resol thank you by mve by Mr odonnell seconded by Mr Macwan thank you both um Carrie call the role please miss capoli yes Mr Cohen yes Mr McOwen yes Mr odonnell yes Miss saxs yes Miss Wilson Anderson yes and Mrs Wilson yes motion carried thank you uh our next resolution is for Mora Kino and Marlin IOD Del this was a minor subdivision and site plan with variances at 469 Ying street block 7202 lot 13 uh file number P 2322 - 255 mspm any questions suggestions or other thoughts about this resolution and if not would someone like to move it'll move Mo it um moved by Miss sa seconded by was that you Mr bodimer could well have been okay or it could have been the reverse order I'm happy either way it could have been I'm calling it I'm calling it as I see it moved by Miss sack seconded by Mr bodimer um Carrie would you call the vote Please Mr bodimer yes Miss capazo yes Mr Cohen yes Mr McOwen yes Miss Nuka yes Mr odonnell yes Miss pearlmutter yes Miss saxs yes and Mrs Wilson yes motion carried our last resolution is for Trustees of Princeton University this was relief of a condition related to the art museum tree relocation um at Elm Drive in MOS walk this was file P2 2424 d47 NRC any comments or to prove thank you Miss capazo moved by Julie capoli seconded by Mr Cohen thank you Carrie would you call the vote Miss capoli yes oh David you were not there was not there I maybe I wasn't because I thought the most recent thing related to the art museum was the vision I marked you down as ineligible to vote for some reason why was that it I'll okay I res I resend my oh second motion can I have a second I'm sorry I miss that that was Mr McOwen thank you so much Miss capoli Yes again Mr mcowan yes Mr odonnell yes Miss Pearl mutter yes Miss Wilson Anderson yes Mrs Wilson yes motion carried thank you um next up we have a capital review for Princeton public school so all of you who are here on the on the public schools team um thank you for coming welcome um activate your cameras um great to see everybody and um I gather that um we'll start with a quick overview uh introduction um by Justin Lesco our planner um um after that um whoever is taking the lead on the part of the schools I don't know whether that's you superintendent Foster or Mr duy or I'm not sure but somewhat we'll we'll turn it over to you and Mr Mueller will swear you all in uh sort of on mass so that um we can streamline that that process so I'll stop talking and hand things over to Mr leco thank you madam chair and Jerry I wouldn't imagine we need to swear in tonight since this isn't a hearing it's not a hearing but I think traditionally we we we have sworn uh people who testify in uh that's my recollection anyway yeah let's do that sure happy to do so you swear or affirm that testimony about to give be the truth yes I do so thank you um and I see there's a name last named kenderdine with their handup would they happen to be part of the schools team or no the engineers okay so I should probably bring them over I wasn't aware if uh George and Dan did you um ask someone from uh EEG to come uh oh George is frozen yeah George looks like he's [Music] Frozen we could wait then and figure it out after uh my introduction um but thank you all for being here and thank you madam chair uh most of what I'm about to say comes from the joint memo written by Mr Bridger Mr Weissman and myself uh which was dated 9:16 and posted on the municipal website uh the Board of Education of the Princeton Public Schools submitted requests for planning Board review for five proposed projects at three schools and I'm just going to going to refer to the school board and the school district as the schools tonight so as not to confuse things when I say board referring to the planning board uh I might also try to say planning board rather than just board again so as not to confuse things so I'm gonna I'm G to try my best with that um these requests were made in accordance with the municipal land use law which requires planning Board review for these types of capital projects the planning board is to provide comments and recommendations to the State Department of Education based on these projects and the review tonight um ultimately what will come of this meeting is one document written by staff to the Department of Education uh with the planning board's comments on these five projects at the three schools uh we'll write that as fast as possible and run it by the chair then submit it to the State Department of Education under our Municipal ordinance the schools will be required to come back at a later date for conditional use approval on these projects as the three schools are in resid zones of the former Township Schools both public and private are conditional uses in those zones uh you may recall in 2020 when this conditional use approval was sought by the schools and granted by the planning board for a project to add classrooms a bathroom and storage facility near the football field and storm water improvements at Princeton High School so now moving on to the proposed projects before you this evening I plan on giving a brief orientation to the sites uh and an overview of the projects before turn turning it over to the schools and their professionals to give a presentation with more detail on exactly what they're looking to do um it's very similar to what we normally do here just so happens there's three uh in one essentially or or five and three sites in one um and I'm probably going to go out of order from my memo here on the sites um I'm mostly going to hold out the minor comments uh until after the school's presentations but we'll imag elaborate on some major concerns that we have with the community park school proposal uh at this time so let's begin with the Princeton Middle School um I'd like to share my screen to orient everyone to it uh here is the uh uh aerial imagery using the publicly available NJ map from Rowan University Jerry do we need to uh make note exhibits tonight I think it's probably a good idea I ju Justus as you said earlier this is not a formal hearing I just I think it's a good idea for the record okay do you want to call this pb1 then yeah please okay great um so the Middle School is located at 217 Walnut Lane in the R8 residential zone of the former Township it serves grades 6 to8 in a mostly twostory building of just under 120,000 square feet on an 11.84 acre lot Princeton High School is across uh to the west and a wooded area of Westminster ACO college is across to the South a parking lot uh for this Middle School is across from the main School lot to the north across guav uh but otherwise most properties in the vicinity are residential the proposal for the Middle School includes two additions uh one would be in the rear where a parking lot currently is and one it would be in front of the current building towards Walnut Lane again this is a brief description and I expect schools will present more detailed information uh so moving again uh using the uh Rowan University NJ parcel map I guess this would be pb2 uh we have Little Brook School it's located at 39 Magnolia Lane in the R4 residential zone of the former Township it serves grades prek to five in a one-story 59,000 foot building on a 10.19 acre lot it's surrounded uh just about fully by Residential Properties on all sides um I believe they're all in the R4 and maybe one other residential district that I'm not remember off the top of my head uh the proposal for Little Brook School contains two parts like I said before five proposals at three schools uh the first part includes two additions in the rear of the existing School building uh the second part includes an expansion of an existing uh rear parking area by 13 spaces or an increase of about 21% uh of the spaces on the site and then lastly we have Community Park School once again the NJ parcel map from Rowan University and this would be pb3 um it's located at 372 Witherspoon Street in the r six residential zone of the former Township and it serves grades prek to five and a mostly two-story building of 43,000 square feet on a 7.28 acre lot um board members are probably familiar with this site uh from recent applications in the area for the past couple years uh there's a mix of land uses around the school across Witherspoon Street there's that eclectic mix of single family duplex and multif family Residential Properties mixed use properties with businesses and residential units um and a religious use and those are all in the B1 uh business Zone um the former packet building is to the south at 300 Witherspoon it's been adaptively reused from its previous vacant state to contain offices retail and medical uses also to the South is the municipality's Department of Public Works uh John Street Annex it's still there to the South uh it contains vehicle and Equipment storage uh offices and the salt Dome uh adjacent to the school you will find Community Park um with the tennis courts closest to the property line and to the north of the school uh is the community park pool as well as the municipal building at 400 Witherspoon street so the proposal uh for Community Park School contains two parts somewhat similar to the Littlebrook School proposal the first part includes two additions in the rear of the existing School building and and the second part includes essentially a new parking lot in this green space on Witherspoon Street between the school's driveway and the former Packy building at 300 Witherspoon like I said before uh we'll hold off on the minor comments for these sites but at this time I do want to point out major concerns with the proposal for this parking this new expanded or newly created parking area um for that I'll switch to the drawings provided by the school uh Jerry would this be pb4 is it the school I'm sorry say again Justin should we label it pb4 or just refer to the schools uh we label it pb4 okay um so as you can see in this drawing that new uh parking area would go in that green space um and cars would enter the parking lot from Witherspoon Street and exit through the packet building property uh that's not shown on here but it is shown on the other drawing for the additions so I'm assuming that's that's the case um but first off we're not aware if there's a formal easement agreement with the property owner of 300 Witherspoon to allow for this change uh you know essentially to their property um or if they you know know about it at this point um secondly the proposal would require the removal of parts of a chain link fence that were required to be installed as the recent uh uh minor site plan or site plan approval by the board um multiple parallel parking spaces would need to be removed to let the cars out here I don't know exactly how many um but as you may recall the board the planning board granted parking variances in 2021 when reviewing the 300 Witherspoon application and parking on site was a uh a large topic of discussion um so that being said this proposal would require formal site plan approval by the planning board with variances granted and frankly I don't know if the board would approve those variances or if staff would support them um the 300 Witherspoon Street Building uh seems to be pretty busy right now with cars coming in and out and parking uh often full there to go to High Toops to go to the eye doctor Capital Health tiger labs and Homestead um sacred coffee I believe is closed right now I don't know if they're coming back or if that space is g to be filled with something else uh but you know it's a thankfully busy property right now third it's unclear if adding this parking lot would alleviate the issues at Community Park School that come when parents wait to drop off their kids in the morning or pick them up in the afternoon adding an additional curb cut right next to another one and not too far from the two-way access at uh the packet building might actually make things worse at pickup and drop off drop off time um in terms of queuing uh fourth the school should demonstrate if there is a need for these 36 additional parking spaces uh like I said before if the queuing space is needed for pickup and drop off that would look different than the parking lot that we see tonight with parking on both sides of the drive aisle um uh additionally uh there are many parking spaces in the area between the community park lot the existing parking at the school and the 400 Witherspoon Municipal Building uh the uses and Peak periods of parking for for these three you know publicly accessible sites are often complimentary uh for example schools not session when the pool's open so people will park at the school and then go to the pool soccer practice does not occur at the park until after school or on weekends because the kids are in the school otherwise um or parents will park a 400 Witherspoon at 8:30 in the morning to drop off their Stu uh their kids before many employees are here at 9: um and tonight is actually uh uh while walking to the municipal building it's a kind of good example of that because I believe it's back to school night at community park school and first off thank you all to the the staff for being here and we'll try to make this quick in case you have to go to that but um there's a lot of overflow parking in the building here at 400 Witherspoon which is otherwise you know pretty empty uh and I would imagine the same goes for uh the community park parking lot but um so then moving on uh fifth this new parking lot entrance with an exit out of the packet building seems like it would make Community Park School less inviting and safe for students and their parents that arrive to the school on a bike bike or on foot uh the bike racks in front of the school are often packed uh that same thought goes that uh this you know adding another curb cut on Witherspoon Street uh would also make things less inviting and safe for people who are walking or biking past the school uh on the new widen and sidewalks and lastly for now um I walked the site with the municipal arborus a few days ago to get an understanding of the trees in the green area and there are over two dozen mature trees in good health uh White Oaks pin oaks multi- stem lindens White Pines Mulberry and sweet gums um these trees and the the Green Space itself also provide storm water management and something of a little Oasis in an area of town where there are already a decent amount of asphalt parking lots um I'm not going to sing the Joanie Mitchell song but I am certainly thinking of it uh as I look at this application um and there are also five Street trees in good health and as has been noted in some of these other recent applications on Witherspoon uh the tree canop canopy of Princeton particularly Street trees has dwindled and particularly on Witherspoon Street where we've seen a lot of utility projects and other things over these past couple years so the largest questions for the school pertaining to this site uh are is this parking lot absolutely needed or can it can the need be accommodated elsewhere by sharing parking um if it is needed it you know to the extent to 36 spaces um are is the trade-off of Green Space and trees for asphalt worth the negatives of losing the the trees in Green Space um again if you know if it is needed have the traffic impacts been considered um both on the site around the site and on Witherspoon Street um will the new driveway prevent people from arriving to the school on foot or on bike thus making the school in town even more autod dependent um and then lastly obviously there are those legal questions of if the neighboring property owner cons send to this um and if they do are the schools you know are do the schools and the neighbor neighboring property owner are they prepared to come back to the board uh for site plan and variance approval so many of these items are not just uh you know our professional opinions but are also backed by the master plan as detailed in our memo and I'm happy to go into those master plan comments that were included in the memo as well as just I'm sorry um I I I would just like to ask question uh since you've started with this um hopefully this is the most the most complicated and it'll be smooth sailing from here but um I just you know everyone feels about this one way or another I just have a question does is the applicants architect and and staff aware of this I mean whether it's a good idea or a bad idea I I know from the the past referendum that it's an issue to put something on an on a referendum that has to it's you know considered I guess specul um you know if it if it has to go through a land use board for approval um and I mean do just would like to hear from the applicant and like to know did they know about this and if so what do they think and is there an agreement with uh the the adjacent property owner who I guess would have to ask for these variances you know so I mean before we get into the sort of from a sustainability perspective or whatever it is madam chair could we just well since this was brought up first could we hear from the applicant that yeah I first want to hear from Justin whether he's had any conversations um uh to give a heads up um about this and um I mean I know that that the the memo which goes into considerable detail on this particular issue um you know has been in everybody's hands since Monday but but I I I I hear where you're going Mia and I completely agree that it makes sense to hear you know on the front end uh what what the schools have to Justin do you want to say anything first sure certainly um we met with the schools in in early to mid July to discuss these ideas um I don't remember you know the focus wasn't on this one too much it was almost kind of like yeah we might do this um but at the time we brought up some of the issues that we foresaw um we have you know spoken professional to professional since then um and you know kind of been told to uh for the board to give the give their comments to the Department of Ed uh so that's where we are now um there's a ticking clock once we receive the the files uh and there's not really a completeness review like with other applications so you know there's we can we can and have told them about these concerns but there's no hey you can't come to us uh with that yeah okay and so who would like to take the lead on addressing this um from the schools on on behalf of the schools George Mr Mr I don't mind starting out yet Justin has been very forthright go ahead you wan you want to start Matt or yeah I was just gonna say that we've uh you so should should we swear people in at this point right if we could swear I think we should sorry to interrupt the flow if everybody can raise your right hand except Brandon obviously as the attorney doesn't have to do you swear or affirm that the testimony about to give will be the truth I do do I do so SW affirmed Mr dothy go ahead oh okay Mr B not that's go that's great okay all right um well thank you very much you're the you're the architect I'm sorry I my name is George sty I'm a principal with fhd Architects We Are The Architects for the uh Princeton Board of Education I've been a licensed architect for more than 30 years uh and uhe specialized in school design um and I appreciate all of the thoughtful comments that the planning board just made this is something we have discussed as a group with the client um the parking is somewhat carries over from an earlier effort but so the board knows we we kind of anticipated that this might be an area that we would have to take a closer look at we did submit it to the Department of Education but I want the board to be aware that it is a standalone application in the process of the Department of Education which means it could be pulled and it doesn't affect anything okay so we were sensitive to the fact that we were going to have a conversation you know with the municipality at some point in time and I think everything you said is very well reasoned and we clearly need to take another look at it whether it ends up not being you know a parking lot at all and left the way it is or you know some other uh solution is found if needed if needed working very closely with the municipality and collaborative fashion that I know is the desire of the school district um thank you for that and you know your mention of the uh State Board of Ed remind or Department of Ed reminded me that that of course they they have ultimate jurisdiction here um to a point but not when it comes to you know the the approvals that you would have to that the schools would have to get for this particular piece of the project because of the variances and Etc so um but with that understanding I think that it would really be helpful for Justin or Jerry or both of you to make clear to the board our planning board um the distinction between a courtesy review which is what we are doing tonight and um a more typical uh review of an application with the site plan which is later in the in the process because I want to just make sure that everybody is is straight on that and if if U planning board members have questions um you know that they Madam chair before that ex I'm sorry but for that explanation um could I I just wanted to to respond to Mr Duty's comments and I think that uh Mr Balden also was gonna was gonna make some comments and I'd like to let finish but also Mr Duty I I understand what you're saying that you want to hear from us and this is not like you have a ticking clock on this referendum there's no time to spare and if you're propos this is like I just want to reiterate you know if you're a big part of one of your the the key parts of your referendum relies on a private property owner who has not been informed agreeing to get approval from another land use board and and you haven't sufficiently discussed this with your client I think we have a problem it doesn't matter like you're you said you were aware that you wanted to discuss this with us this is not really with us this is with you and your client and I am you know cognizant again of the previous referendum where the architect on one site did not adequately inform the school board about the zoning uh about a d variance that would have needed to take place and I would hate to see that history repeat itself in that way um I think we all you know uh fared worse because of of that situation before so I just would like to know what is the situation you know it's this is not really about our opinion it's like what is your plan that that the board of AD the State Board of aded does not a department of education does not have the authority to uh require a private property owner to give an in easement or to go uh you know to to agree to that so I'm just wondering like why is this even why you know I don't why is this even coming to us in this form just let me jump in real quick if you will um Council chair the um one of the we have and just for for the records and for the minutes um you're math Matthew mat Balon I'm the business administrator and board secretary for the Princeton Board of Education perfect we we in order to potentially do something we have to submit to the doe Sue and they have to uh apply on whether we can get state aid and give us a preliminary and final eligibility um letters so um in that sense we had to submit ahead of time and also at the same time we have a fiduciary duty not to exp you know expend funds uh immediately on such things uh you know that would be needed to get these approvals for the parking lot and it's also a separate part of the project a very small piece of the overall referendum which we knew would be um you know fraught with with issues such as this so and just to chime in we I mean it was it was a intentional decision to submit these as five separate projects and that rather than the parking and the building addition at community park being submitted as one project so to speak they were uh separated you know or bifurcated intentionally and the same with Littlebrook just so that they could be discussed separately and to this is excuse me U Mr kroer on uh attorney on behalf of the of the schools um speaking right I didn't know what the procedure was if you want me to no I mean typically we this is a a sort of unusual freewheeling conversation but it's an important one to have and I just I'm not trying to this is not a Smackdown at all I just want to make sure that for all the reasons related to minutes and stuff everyone's identified and that the board knows you know who's who's speaking but um so with the understanding that these are five separate projects um if the board um I see your hand Mr Cohen I'll call on you just a second if the board um um takes to Heart the planning board's not only strong concerns from a design perspective but the hurdles that the schools uh will need to get passed um in order to get permission from Neighbors and etc etc is this something that you think you're likely to move forward with as part of the referendum or I guess I'm trying to cut to the chase I think the question is is the CP because CP is a really critical part as we all know it is you know the community needs for us to do what we need to do at community park school so is the rest of this a part from the this parking thing like is could the rest of it basically is how critical is this little parking piece to the overall that's that I think is the the real question I think Mr wco did a nice job of explaining the other two areas that are uh used quite readily is you know your lot there behind the town uh building and then the also the lot behind CP South so that's typically what happens now where there's a little bit of a parking shortage but we felt it was you know important to leave open all potential Avenues you know as we um entered this um and well I'm sorry but I just wondering like if you you wouldn't have to submit to the state if you were to remove part of the it wouldn't delay your progress in any way correct oh that's good to know okay great thank you did that way we did it that way on purpose got it uh submitting we're not required to go through with the project but we're here this is one of the steps along the way we and we we did see the feedback in the in the memo and I I think we're committed to take a further look at it and and we understand it's the board of education's decision whether to whether and which projects to move forward with ultimately um we get that Mr Cohen I I just had a an additional question related to process for this I guess this is a question from Mr kroer but say you did want to go ahead with this parking lot and leave it in the referendum what is the path forward for you from this point in terms of getting the eastan agreement in terms of getting the land use approvals to miss Sax's Point can this be on the on the referendum if there is not an approval in place at the time of the referendum or is is that okay for it to be part of the referendum with approvals pending and dve just to add to that they need to get conditional use approval uh as well and they have not applied for it yet I don't think Justin am I correct no and I can be that as well we we understood we're here tonight just concerning Capital Improvement reviews under 40 Co 55d 31a of the municipal anuse law we totally understand we have to come back before you for conditional use approval so it you know we we have made the decision to bif forgate the application and that was for uh financial reasons essentially we want to you know make sure we come back before you after um a referendum is passed before expending substantial funds to to have additional plans and you know all the additional leg work that will go into that but we were so you're you're saying that it is okay to go ahead including this parking lot in the referendum even though approvals have not been um obtained for it the the variant approvals yeah I don't think that decision has been made yet in terms of whether we are going forward with that I understand that but David it's a legal thing and I answered that at the beginning and we had this experience before yes they put it on there but it puts them in a legally vulnerable position for the entire referendum and the superintendent is shaking her said head yes you know so it's like that's their decision of their lawyer whether they want to roll the dice and do that it's not for the architect it's for you know their attorney Mr kroer is the attorney Mr kroer is attorney Mr D yes and I and I wanted to make sure that Mr Kooker was clear um or that and that you were correct in your concerns that you raised since you're not an attorney I wanted to hear from the the school's attorney to make sure that your concern was a legitimate one that in fact it's improper to have thank for D I appreciate it you know I do it all the time when you're I do I do thank you both um so back to the question of of the courtesy review versus the review that happens um later in the process yes thank you madam chair that's a a great question and that's what I was getting to uh to end out my my brief long introduction your brief introduction yeah uh so the the planning board's task tonight is to provide comments to the schools and the Department of Education really on those topics that the planning uh board has a particular expertise and these are topics that relate to site planning for each of these three sites and the areas around them so really Transportation circulation Mobility storm water management and natural resource conservation sustainability including sustainable energy and urban heat island effects um Community facilities uh basically the elements of the m plan uh are one way to think about it including the overall Community Vision um so uh kind of conversely the planning board should leave topics related to the actual education of students to the Princeton Public Schools um so I would refrain from making comments about you know the needs for a certain program or type of classroom uh you know should they have a music room or should the music teacher walk around with a cart that's really not in the board's perview um the optimal student to teer uh ratio um or obviously funding and Staffing and things like that I would you know as the board stay away from that um the only caveat I will say to that is that the planning board uh just did not get a chance to review the long-range facilities plan that was approved by the Department of Education in late August so I think it's fair for the planning board to ask the schools about bigger picture long range uh facilities planning type questions so uh I hope that that answered it um that would be my introduction um obviously there's much more in the memo um after we hear about each of the individual plans uh so I would turn it back over to you madam chair or to the schools uh if there are no further questions at this time Mr Bridger and Mr Weissman are also here for questions on their Specialties um in our report as is Mr Muller for the legal and procedural questions that I'm sure will come up yeah and I just want just for clarity the board received the um long range facilities plan um by way of a link on the first page of your memo uh uh Mr Lesco so we've um we've been able to look at it um but that step of you know a formal you know or even informal Board review of it um as a step you know leading toward this kind of facilities or Capital review um was not done with you know perhaps not possible this time um given the compressed time frame between the completion of the master plan and the planning for this uh amendment I mean I you know I don't know but um so so we so our members will have seen it if they if they clicked on that link and took a look at that long range plan but that's not to say that you know detailed questions about it aren't um uh you know permitted or uh may not be um uh appropriate at any point tonight so on behalf of the schools are we back to Mr kroer um superintendent Foster Mr Duty who is Mr Bolding who is taking the lead here Madame chair I'm sorry I just want you know not I I didn't receive the long range facilities plan I don't know how many members other board members did there was a link to it on the on the first page of Justin's memo to the board which she circulated on Monday okay so my bad but I I don't know that we we've all read it and yeah I just to my other point that you know the schools do have a tight timeline and they are here for us to review um these specific plans so I I just I think that it would be counterproductive for all of us to start speculating to go too far into you know the the long range I mean I think we have to yeah totally I yeah yeah completely agree about that I guess by the school board and their professionals and their long range facilities committee on their long range needs and like we as the planning board have specific expertise and I hope we can just focus on that so that we can you know accomplish what to for them tonight sure and I wanted to bring it up partly because the reason we did not review the capital plan um two weeks ago is because we did not yet have the long range facilities plan and we needed that our our professionals needed that for context and did take it into account in their review and in their recommendations so um your point is taken I'm I certainly don't expect to go down the um lrfp Rabbit Hole tonight um but it is in everyone's hands and it's quite different from the last one from 2018 maybe just for these applications I would note that the the the additions that we're here about tonight um were the building additions at the three sites were part of that longrange facilities plan Amendment the major amendment that the doe approved and that's a prerequisite to the doe approving uh capital projects applications which which would have been submitted essentially they have to find the capital projects application is consistent with the um long range facilities plan Amendment um so in any event um just wanted to mention that but we are um Justin I think did a a you know a very comprehensive job about introducing the um introducing the uh applications here tonight um maybe I'll ask George do you want to speak maybe just a little bit about the the specific specifics of um each of the projects sure I could share a screen and we can start with the middle school if you like sure me just get the right plan up here on all right can anyone see the screen okay yes yes okay this is the middle school this Walnut Lane this is go on the on the left side um and of course this is the frontage of the middle school I'm trying to just point with a little tiny Mouse here so I hope you can see it coming across the front so this this project consists of two different additions as Justin was just discussing in the back of the building over the top of a basically a parking lot in the back uh we are going to construct an expansion of multi-purpose space expansion in the cafeteria creation of a separate multi-purpose space uh the creation of associated spaces along with that including a night Lobby so that space can stand alone and be used for after hours activities by the school district and community so that's what this area is about over here we have uh a loss here of about 26 parking spaces the school district can testified further as to the effect that that will have on them and will not have an effect they do have some spare parking over there at this time we're going to create some uh connectivity with the existing uh Pathways we're going to uh obviously do some modifications for storm water and I want to say for these plans which I'm sure you know already that they're at a level you know that we typically prepare for doe submission okay this is not even schematic it's really kind of a pre- schematic level okay there's a lot more detail that obviously has to be added on and to get to that level of detail you know there's a there's a commitment of professional fees and so forth that we we we can't commit until we have the funding available from the referenda so so we know there's a lot more work to do and and and I know from speaking with the client that you know this would be a process a collaborative process we would work with the municipality as we advance these plans this is you know a community project right so I just want to be clear that that this plan is a pre- schematic type drawing so this is a this is a one-story higher volume space in the back of the Middle School we're relocating a shed we're putting in this is a trash enclosure right here relocating that we're also uh relocating a shed so essentially this line where the parking is is not moving it's staying where it is we're just going to uh reconfigure the parking area and reconfigure the loading area right here and of course some barrier-free parking so jumping around to the front a little more going on here along Walnut um here we're going to add an add a two-story addition a two-story classroom addition classrooms science rooms some other related type spaces and that is sort of this bigger block here this is that two-story Wing next to that there's a a smaller one-story Wing that is going to become the new main entrance to the building it's going to I have an expansion Administration space one of the challenges in that building is the administrative spaces the entrance route to the building which obviously barrier-free entrance to the building and and also of course security comes into consideration so that's what this project is kind of trying to attack it's connecting to an existing part of the building one of the plans is and although not really a subject for the planning board is to do some Renovations of the Middle School to move the district's technology department to the middle school and allow some renovations to be done at the high school to freeze some space up does not involve any additions okay so what else is going on here we're going to create two Pathways um to the uh new main entrance here as some type of an entrance feature again not designed obviously we want to take into account some tree canopies and so forth one of the comments was you know can we do that along the walkway out the Goya of course we can do that yes uh we we we're envisioning some type of a uh storm water management feature here in the front of the building and uh you know just some various exit paths now this corner here is an existing underground storm water management system that we were not going to be able to disturb so as is true especially with this site um you know there's not really many places left to build and so we tried to be sensitive to making the additions as compact as we could make them and uh you know to have you know the hopefully the most least I should say you know impact on the site for what we have to work with we're also constructing by the way a small covered walkway connection right here uh between the uh the main uh the Annex Building and the uh and the Pod here okay so right in there this is a heavy traffic area and we just want to get some cover over the kids uh for when they travel in Clement weather so that is uh the middle school as you know the school district also on the other side of go does have this uh kind of uh parking lot uh expansion on the other side okay so there's no plans to change this but this lot will remain intact okay and that that's the plan for the middle school thank you George Ju Just Let Me interject about process or let me ask Mr Muller I know you were marking exhibits I don't know this was the application that was submitted for the middle school I don't know if you wanted to mark this or were needed to um I thank you for racing that I think it's a good idea however you however you want to handle it is fine I just didn't know yeah why don't we Market is um A1 so mdle schol I'm sorry God Jer I'm sorry I was going to describe it as a um a middle school kind of pre-concept plan but how would you describe a charge right yeah well schematic you know doe level schematic schematic yeah yeah doe level SCH yeah sure I know a common theme amongst all of the sites you know questions about things like lighting like night sky lighting and how much lighting will there be and and obviously it's a school so there's a need for some level of security lighting but we want to be very sensitive you know we know that the sites are in close proximity to residential areas so that's something we'll work with the municipality on in terms of lighting design uh to try to uh minimize the impact of lighting to use appropriately designed lighting as well same is true of the Landscaping uh and uh you know other uh other site features storm waterer management obviously we're obligated to comply with uh Beth kenderdine from l2a Edwards Engineering Group is on the uh is on this call as well so that's the uh that's the Middle School Mr Cohen yeah I just wanted to make sure I understood correctly that new walkway that connects the southernmost Wing to the um Circ that is covered but it's outdoor correct this this walkway here yes it's not indoor correct it is covered but not closed in on the sides that's correct okay thank you and the area that you've identified is a potential rain Garden at the bottom of this um image are there trees in that location there are some trees yes there are some trees and so we're again this is something that we're going to have to uh you know work on in terms of how that gets developed yeah I mean never a good idea to remove mature trees to create uh storm water feature yeah as a this is a concept and and and and one of the things you know even though um like it shows there it may not be there it could end up in a different we haven't really designed anything yet there may not even be the right spot for we just want to make sure we're capturing some of the features of the things that we're trying to get into the plants and you might consider consider um uh permeable pavement since the site is so tight as you pointed out sure sure yeah absolutely concrete and and asphalt sure y we will likely have to use some of that to meet the requirements anyway for storm water management all right so that's the middle school and now I'll try to go to the uh I guess community park next so that was the existing plan but let me bring up the new plan just I ask Mr M I guess that would be A2 yes okay sure so I'll just kind of slide that little Park lot right out of there um so here a community park you can see again in and the work here is is is in the back of the site primarily in the back of the site an area that right now there's a there's a large open courtyard there at this time and again is to do sort of an infill type of construction um create some connectivity so here we have a one story again uh volume space mostly a volume space uh there's a library expansion there's a new gymnasium we're going to convert the existing gymnasium into a library and music space so uh we're going to create a appropriately sized gymnasium for Community Park School we're going to connect once side of the building to the other side of the building that's going to kind of create this enclosed Courtyard which we're going to Envision as a nice uh Outdoor Learning type environment nicely landscaped that's what we're envisioning uh we are going to construct at the end of the two-story wing of the building an expansion of the two-story wing with uh some classrooms in it connecting it to the existing building and again just modifying what we have out there extending the uh the walkway that goes around the building The Pedestrian path that goes all the way around the building connects uh to the uh to the park we're going we're going to continue that we're going to introduce some play space we're going to introduce uh fencing and gates for security while maintaining egress out of those Courtyards okay so that that is really oh and a small courtyard here right outside of the library um that will uh have kind of like an outdoor outdoor classroom reading space okay so that's what community park looks like quick questions for for Mr Mr Cohen yeah I just um could you say a little bit more about the fencing uh oh at the courtyards it it I'm not sure I'm understanding the rationale for fencing those in I mean you have lots of outdoor that's used by students uh on the proper question yeah yeah uh really right now and again this is early on in the process and we haven't designed really anything yet except on that schematic level the thought here is security okay it's really just to prevent people from coming and lingering in those in those spaces that have been created by the design of the building but we still have to maintain egress from this area because we have exit doors all right so as envisioned right now and as out to say and probably will change later on we're envisioning a fence across here just to close this area off okay and again just to prevent people from to create kind of a perimeter around the school which unfortunately these days we have to do and same thing on this side it's just to keep this area private keep this area private also allows you to identify you know stragglers and people who should not be in there right so it's it's primarily a security concern can you speak to um you know I know there's a real need for increased capacity at CP um so can you um I'm interested to know exactly how this maximizes the uh how much additional capacity classrooms kids so on there will be um and also I'm just interested in um your decision to sort of you know switch the library and the gym and and um I'm just curious how you how you uh the for how you sort of you know laid out those sure those well so a a large amount of study was done before these plants were developed uh one of the things that was done was the elementary schools were studied in terms of their main spaces you know classrooms small group instruction rooms which are very integral to operational schools now the sizes of core spaces such as the cafeteria music rooms the libraries those types of spaces and and what we found at Community Park is because we're we're going to you know bring additional population to the school create capacity for additional population we needed to make the cafeteria bigger so what we what we did was we're going to remove the stage a community park and we're going to we're going to create in the gym space I described previously there's going to be a stage in there so it's really going to be like a multi-purpose room gym that's going to allow us to open up the floor in the cafeteria so we can service more kids it's a very crowded at the in the cafeteria community Park I've been there during lunchtime the library um was um is being moved from really basically this corner of the building uh and again to create parody we're we're moving into half of the gym half of the existing gym we're also creating a small little addition but we needed to create an additional music space as well so part of the existing gym will become that nice high value music space so that drove the need for multi-purpose room which needed to be a little bit larger anyway and they need to put the stage in there so that's sort of where the decision making came from you know there was this the idea of you know should we bump the cafeteria maybe down here well we have a community garden down here so we kind of said no that's not a good spot for an addition so we chose not to put it there and obviously the site kind of told us like where does it make the most amount of sense to put additions again trying to stay tight trying to stay compact so that and and and trying to minimize these the schools have beautiful open areas around them trying to minimize the impact of the outlying areas around the schools but that's that's what and the other issue too is you know like you're trying to get from the cafeteria and you got to get all the way around the building to here this is a very long route so by creating this additional connection here it takes some of the flow the the volume away from the lunchtime traffic and even from the PE traffic and creates a much more um creates a much more efficient Circ ulation route this is also good for other reasons too including security this is also good it's always good to have another route around the school and to make that connection and there are other things too but those those are some of the things that strike me right now what about and I meant to ask this about um the Middle School um the nurses the nursing station the nurses you know uh area here and also at at the Middle Schools they're both very constrained and um is is there are there any plans to um expand that at all not in the current plan no not in the current okay and have um the teachers uh you know at at at both schools sort of been an integral part of this process yes but I I could probably let Dr Foster or Matt speak more appropriately to that there's been a lot of collaboration at the school level which has kind of landed us where we are I think that's safe to say yeah Dr Foster Dr Foster you um good evening first of all thank you for having us tonight we we greatly appreciate uh your time and allowing us to uh to share these plans with you um this is like a labor of love um and it's been going on for a very long time um so I want to commend um the board members as well who really started I think this process in 2019 uh and here we are now but what I can say in the last year that I've been here um we've done a lot of listening uh and so you know we spent a lot of time uh uh with the community listening and getting feedback and answering questions and we've gone uh to each of the schools uh to share the plans uh with our faculty um uh to give feedback as well because we know that they live it every day um and they may notice things that we may not notice um and I do want to just uh say in fact um you know uh we'll go into Little Brook in a minute but um Lou Ramirez who's the principal actually helped us kind of rethink our design at one point um because um as he said you know he he knows it so intimately um so uh we we we really continue to welcome feedback as as we um refine our our designs thanks that's really reassuring because the the teachers know better than any of us how this will really work in practice and so that that's helpful thank you um one question that I have that um I guess uh both the the schools and Municipal Representatives can weigh in on is whether planning has been done to improve um you know bike and pedestrian access here um I I have on a number of occasions been walking along uh around when you know in the afternoon midafternoon when school's out and I tell you it is a very chaotic very chaotic situation on Witherspoon street right there I know drop off in the morning is probably a whole another animal and I'm not usually out for that but um so I'm just thinking about um in addition to exploring the shared parking as um Mr leco mentioned uh whether there are thoughts about better accommodating um kids who may arrive by bike or on foot both for capacity and safety of those uh people who who would rather not be dropped off in a car or whose parents want to make sure that their kids are safe walking or biking any thoughts about that always encourage our families we always encourage our families to to ride and bike but you know not sure we're quite at that stage where we've been able to you know you know uh substantially approve um that uh Mr Cohen were you wanting to yes I did I I I wanted to sort of tag on to your question with just mentioning that it has been a dream of the uh pedestrian bike advisory committee to have a connection from Community Park South over to Witherspoon Street um for bicyclists because there there's a bike um flow from the whole western side of town that wants to come like on Mountain you know there's a a a bike path or a shared use path that connects Johnson Park over to Elm Road and then a bike path that is along Mountain a that connects to Community Park South so this is a a real collector for both middle school and high school kids who want to safely bike to school from the Western section but there's this Missing Link once you get to CP South how do you get to guo which has the GU bike path that then gets over to both the high school and to the middle school so thank you Madam chair for raising the issue of bike um bike facilities and I just wanted to mention this um so that the folks from the schools are aware that it's something that has been in the minds certainly of the bicycle advocacy community in town for many years um we wish it had been done at the time that the school was redesigned I don't know how long that is 10 years ago now but I would hate to see another big project happen at CP without looking seriously at the possibility of making that connection yeah it but it does it seems like a golden opportunity and and really needs to be uh seized uh Mr leco yes thank you madam chair um I wanted to answer your question a little on the municipal side now that we're actually seeing the improvements for the Witherspoon phase 3 project that are in the this area obviously the sidewalks on the school side are now eight feet wide you probably could have two bikes going in each direction or bikes and people you know working together and not feeling like you're going to get run over um and we're starting to see the raised crosswalks that are crossing wither spoon um at least in temporary fashion right now they're not perfect um but those will also slow the cars down so people actually honor the 20 M hour speed limit um but one thing I would mention is we could also within the comments uh to the schools uh mention obviously bike and pedestrian infrastructure um but also kind of replicating some of the things that uh we've done even here at the municipal building like raise crosswalks across the driveway um or increasing the number of bike racks yeah and those um those speed humps might not be perfect but they are way better than nothing and I I hope that in the final analysis the speed humps in the immediate vicinity of the school like those two temporary ones are now are a lot um more like humps than the ones further south on Witherspoon which are which are barely uh that's beside the point here tonight I know so sorry for that um digression Mr Cohen yeah and I just wanted to again Justin mentioned this in his m Mo but the extra driveways Crossing That Sidewalk um are a real safe every time you have a driveway Crossing heavily traffic sidewalk it is uh it's just begging for car pedestrian comp so in mind that's one of the strongest critiques of the idea of that new park work lot aside from all the legal issues and stuff is that it's really working in the opposite direction of encouraging you know alternative sustainable uh Transportation options absolutely right yes um you wanna well I'm sorry I didn't mean to cut you off Mr Duty do you want to carry on or did you want to address something that Mr Cohen or someone else just said uh no we've heard you loud and clear about the parking lot [Laughter] clearly work needs to be done and I'll consult with my client we will we will be and we'll be you know in touch about what to do that will be a mutually agreeable solution I'm sure the school district will agree with that uh but I have to speak with them of course got it so um next Riverside are we done with all three we didn't do all three did we yeah we did we did uh we didn't we didn't do Little Brook we didn't talk about little Little Brook okay yeah right we have to do Little Brook so I have to share a little Brook okay okay so here's uh here's a little book little Brooke and this is Magnolia over here so little Brook has uh again two additions a a a a connecting addition with classrooms this is a single story Edition in the back corner of the building uh it's sort of some topography here there's a hill here uh and then the second edition is actually a a music room and that is located uh inside what is already an asphalt uh area and we'll be taking some of that to build this a small addition uh and and that will be uh off off the back hallway adjacent to the gym that will have Music Space inside of it again we'll have uh you know prek-k classrooms uh in in this Edition along with new bathrooms faculty bathrooms some connectivity and we'll be constructing a new uh a new playground as well there'll be again some some outdoor enhancements that'll be done to play space as part of all of these projects and to uh and to the enclosed Courtyards as well so that's that's what Little Brook looks like with two connections here again one by the gym and one essentially at the end of the main classroom Wing well the the rear main classroom way questions um from board members about plans for Littlebrook again a small proposed parking area here uh connect which basically is just an expansion of an existing parking space uh parking lot rather uh we're just going to kind of join that together a little bit we do have a uh you know a tree line here so we would want to try to work to try to minimize any disruption to trees obviously okay yeah I think Mr oh I'm sorry two hands are up Mr leco and then Mr Cohen uh yes thank you madam chair so just while it's up I wanted to bring up uh where the garbage uh the dumpsters are current ly um uh they're kind of in the center or right next to where that uh new parking area would go I don't think I could annotate here um but I'm just curious if the uh schools have a plan for where those dumpsters will go if that's now the the way you access that parking area and if not um the lot the entrance to lot might essentially need to be shifted uh to accommodate those dumpsters while also allowing people to get into the lot let's mark that is exhibit A3 I didn't hear that I'm sorry we'll mark that as what's before us now it's [Music] A3 any thoughts on the dumpsters I haven't really analyzed the dumpster enclosures yet but we'll we'll come up with you know something that will uh you know be hopefully unobtrusive I haven't really thought about the dumpster enclosure that much right now okay but we will thank you Mr Cohen yeah um I wanted to ask a little bit for a little bit more detail uh in terms of the added parking I know we didn't really look at the parking um for uh for CP but from Reading Justin's memo I got the sense that little brick school is actually larger than Community Park School even you know after the additions and that there is uh the total amount of parking at Littlebrook with this addition is actually less than the total amount of parking at CP I think at CP it was in the mid 80s 51 spots plus 35 or 36 here I think it was 60 some plus the 13 so it was in the low 70s and I'm just not I'm not sure where the parking counts are coming from um if if the larger School requires less parking and so if you could talk a little bit about that in both for both schools well the parking at Littlebrook they do use uh some street parking on the front of Magnolia when that's needed for overflow um and all four enteries are pretty tight on parking um CP obviously has the two um adjacent Lots uh that that are used as overflow um Johnson Park if you've been out there down Johnson Road gets backed up very far with with cars um Little Brook is very tight on parking um you know we're going to do more uh study of that prior to um issuing a question on that but um all four we've had complaints at all four elementary schools um from time to time about the amount of parking so so you're not using any square foot standard or number of classroom standard it's just um the fact that you get complaints and I I'm still not clear how quantitatively there was you know you've decided how many to add at each spot I think I think the answer to that question is we we added it where we felt we could put parking you know without adding too much parking where it seemed like a comfortable place to put it at Littlebrook obviously Community Park not so much but at Little Brook so there was a desire for more parking and the question was how much parking can we do and where can we do it and that seemed like a reasonable place to put it and that's what we ended up with it wasn't really based on account it's just based on the need for more parking and where could it go okay Mr bodimer yeah thanks very much I I just wanted to Echo uh kathlyn Cohen's you know request for for a little bit better information about about the demand for parking that that does seem a little bit like uh it seems very anecdotal so what I want to press on is you said we have received complaints about parking can you please be specific about what the complaints are from whom what user groups at what times are we talking about back to school nights are we talking about dropping off kids you know in the morning are we talking about teachers are we what What complaints have been received about parking what problem are you trying to solve it's not back to school night I can assure you that um but we we'd always the community would always appreciate taking parking off the street Riverside is also a nice wide Street a little bit wider than mdon I believe so you know we we haven't uh done it uh quantitative parking study um so okay I mean I I'll just say that it is a nice wide Street uh I I live in the Littlebrook neighborhood I walk frequently along the sidewalks with my dog all different types of day um you know cars can you know one of it concerns me when I hear a car up the street because a lot of times when there are no cars on the street they speed there obviously a lot of kids in this community I I observe the speeds at which people drive along rolling me uh when there are kids on bikes when there are kids on the sidewalks and it just it is a it's a constant source of Amazement to me that people will drive at the speeds they do when there are small children around it and uh I just feel like that's you know taking people taking spaces you know taking cars off the street which something that actually makes the street a little bit harder to speed on it's a little bit of impedance you know I'm not sure I'm not sure I'm seeing that we certainly Echo your concerns on speeding uh and then and I guess I just also wanted to you know this is something that's not really uh you know this may not be drained directly to this Capital plan but I mean I just I I just do want to to hearken back to some of the conversations that we've had as part of the master planning uh program about the the large number of people who commute into Princeton every day and um I imagine that a very very large fraction of the teachers and staff in PBS are you know basically only have one choice you know I don't know whether it's 70 or 80 or 90% of of of your employees but um you know just something to keep in mind as part of at least the long-range master plan again I'm emphasizing I know that this is not uh necessarily Germaine to the specific parking questions at CP and at and and at Littlebrook but you know any initiatives that this that the schools could become uh it could back and I don't know what the range of options are available to the schools but to make it possible for staff and employees to live in preton so they have the option of of getting to and from schools without needing to to to drive um with lower impacts on the community overall by reducing the amount of driving into the community which is something that everyone in the community finds as a burden um and you know would lessen the need to use limited space on the school properties for for parking which is you know that that's just a a thought thanks n and I don't I mean I would love to see in this long-range master plan some kind of thinking about that kind of trade-off between your quantitative assessment of the need for parking to accommodate staff and the tools available to you to to reduce that that need I think that would be responsible and consistent with this the the adopted master plan and I'd like to think too that um some of the housing that's um recently completed and under construction um might be attractive to um employees of the faculty and staff of the schools um Miss Nuka and then Mr Les go if you were finished Mr Bodenheimer I'm sorry I didn't mean to you're done okay pa um thank you I just wanted to um you know echo my uh agreement with the comments of the two previous board members Mr Bingham and uh Mr Cohen I think more careful consideration of parking needs and how people are commuting to the schools is um really called for here uh you know there's no reason to to just add more parking if we don't really need it if there are other Solutions the head and bike advisory committee I believe did a survey a few years ago of how students were commuting to the high school um and I think they would probably be happy to work with the school district to implement a similar kind of survey at the middle school and um elementary schools I also want to add um there is a desperate need for additional bike parking at the middle school a community park at Littlebrook I'm a former Littlebrook parent I have um children at the middle school and high school now um the bike racks the existing bike racks are just not sufficient um and so uh students are leaving bikes kind of uh in along the uh the green spaces or on sidewalks uh not on the rack and so just expanding the bike racks would be extremely helpful and that might be something to consider as part of the the plan then I have one question um with regard to uh the PK prek enrollment um I'm just wondering which site those students will be at if I'm allowed to ask that and whether that will require any other special consider ations um that are reflected here in the plan uh whether it's you know different pickup drop off times or um different play areas and things like that well I mean with our prek program that we've been able to um grow with the assistance of the state um of course we have two uh different prek programs of course we have a self-contained prek um which is required so we're required to educate those students from the age of three if they present a need and uh we're leveraging outside resources to house because of some of the capacity constraints so we're really leveraging Our Community Partners so um these plans don't necessitate increased amounts of the state funded uh prek program um thank you Mr buin does that does that address your question pvy yes um I was just wondering if any of these sorry maybe it doesn't quite address my question um I was wondering if any of these re Renovations are driven by are we allowed to ask this question are they driven by growing prek enrollment um if any of the additional space or is it just the um no we're not plan sorry to interrupt go ahead and finish no I guess go ahead please not no I didn't I didn't mean you okay well Matt we are we are adding I mean the rooms we're constructing at Littlebrook and Community Park are arranged as kindergarten prekindergarten rooms to Pro create flexibility uh many of those rooms are are going to be set up that way just to for future planning purposes so uh it's on enrollment projections correct I mean I don't want to put words in your mouth but well yes yes well these are the proposed what's so the enrollment projection is what's listed as proposed enrollments in the long range facilities it's that and it's also rooms that may be used for those things now that could be you know improved like say a barrier-free toilet room for example so it's room sometimes it's sometimes a reconfiguration of spaces within the building to moving certain things around so so those new rooms can be generated by that reconfig ation in an existing building look at the plans are Renovations small Renovations being done in the elementaries as well okay thank you thank you Mr letco oh sorry Jerry did you wanna yeah I was just gonna ask the board members whether um they they want to uh have the Board of Education look more at on street parking and less on site parking because I think Nat made a very good point about the traffic and traditionally if you have on street parking it will slow traffic down considerably so I just thought it was something that's the board might want to consider and suggest that the school board consider that Sherry I'm sorry I'm just gonna answer on you know from the municipal perspective you know that we had really we've got you know this uh conflict between uh you know bike Lanes parking and Riverside I know there was a request by the uh you know uh bike Advocates the bike advisory committee to um uh make the area along the the street next to Riverside um a bike lane which you know would be nice for kids to be able to bike there but you know then when the school district was consulted it turns out that you know they they really need that for for teacher parking and for you know um the parents dropping off for for their uh they have a program there that they um you know they really need that so I I don't think that we want to go more in that I don't I'm just I don't think that's ultimately a a solution okay schol I just wanted to raise it yeah from the municipal perspective I'm just saying yeah yeah all right thank you both uh Justin yes thank you madam chair um and I don't want to bring us down uh a spiral of larger issues too much but I do want to follow up on one of the comments that Nat had and and the chair had um so we have data that shows that about 89% of the school's employees live outside of Princeton proper um and if you if you'll remember back to the master plan we found that 88.5% of the jobs in Princeton are filled by people who live outside of Princeton so those numbers are strikingly similar that know one in 10 employees lives outside of Princeton probably drives in probably in a single-use vehicle um or a single occupancy vehicle and I don't say that to uh you know to to make the the schools feel bad at all in fact it it's the opposite it's what is the pattern in our town almost exactly so I bring that up just to show that there's a bit of a circular logic of we can't have housing because that's going to have more kids in schools but then you know the teachers uh can't live here with the cost of the housing as it is now so or the the other staff so um you know I'd be very interested in finding out what those numbers were 30 years ago 50 years ago you know so on so forth but as of right now um that is just a fact of life in Princeton with the housing Supply and Zoning uh laws that we have y thanks Mr Cohen so two things I I did want to just um follow up Justin's comment because while I think all of us would love to provide more housing that our teachers could afford uh in Princeton in the interim uh some kind of a the schools are a large enough employer to consider doing Transportation demand management a TDM type of study trying to look for ways to reduce uh the amount of commuting even given you know the fact that people live out of town encouraging caring or or the like so I know the university does has a very robust transportation to band management and uh the municipality should also have transportation demand management we should lead by example but uh I just want to mention that that is something uh specifically to you know to help solve some of this issue given the fact that so many employees live out of town that's number one and then I have a teeny tiny little comment about the the building plan at Community Park if um if George you could reshare the plan um it relates to those Courtyards and the fences and um you're on mute Mr Dy there it is yeah if you could zoom in a little bit yep sure so the question I have or the suggestion is that this I appreciate your concern of you know people loitering in these areas they're kind of secluded and understand why you want uh the fence to keep them out I don't know if the courtyard is U just serving as sort of a way for light to get in the windows of the adjacent rooms but it does seem to me that if you were to move the connector the indoor connector especially for the left and Courtyard to be closer to the end of the top of the plan instead of um at the bottom of the plan then you would essentially eliminate the need for that fence you the courtyard would still serve the same purpose it would be usable for whatever um so yeah obviously we don't know what the layout of the Interior Space is but yeah and there may even be something similar that's possible at the at the other Courtyard although it's not nearly as deep so so well that sort of alley type space and is created by the need for horizontal fire separation daylight as you said and also the need we have to be a certain distance away because of the fire C so right and and that connecting Corridor actually I I brought this plan up to try to I hope hopefully this helps and we're the dark is the new to connect right over here by the the art room the ca the cafeteria is right over here and then to just make kind of this connection straight through to the two-story classroom wing and this up here is actually the stage in the multi-purpose room so that connection would be up there and awkward like we tried to make this kind of a straight line through here yeah yeah and understod yeah just uh yeah not having seen the internal plans no no of course was worth exploring that's why I wanted to show it to you yeah sure got it and let's mark that as A4 and George how would you describe it I'm sorry say that one more time let's uh oh A4 okay sure A4 how would you describe it uh this would be uh uh first floor plan first floor plan Community Park thank you propo proposed first floor plan I should say Okay um could you Mr Duty or someone speak to the [Music] um any thoughts you want to share about um sustainable design Green Building um solar panels um thinking about you know those parts of our um Princeton master plan that uh you know place a very high value on um sustainability and Green Building and um wondering what what the schools have in mind in terms of Meeting those kinds of goals and objectives yeah that's a good great question and uh I'm glad you asked it actually we've been doing there's a lot of sustainable elements that go go into schools um one of the things we have to balance with Public Schools is the need for maintenance and The Upfront investment um solar is certainly something to think about and and and and and to consider at some point in time uh but there are a lot of other things there's Energy Efficiency design you know now we're we're talking about we reducing ventilation air and filtration and and reducing energy consumption we we use um a lot of different um recycled material content in a lot of our products including the flooring that we use ceiling tiles uh blow VOC materials there's a lot of different sustainable things that go into the projects already uh in terms of the individual components uh lead certification we work towards the lead principles um you know there's and we have the lead checklist too we have lead specialists in my office lead certified folks as well so will the buildings end up being lead certified I don't know there is an investment there I don't know that that is something that dish will do but will we uh still you know approach it from a sustainable you know from you know the the idea of water conservation and land and energy and all of those components yes we do that on a lot of different levels and I would commend to you the the updated newly relatively newly adopted um Green Building checklist um that the municipality has recently rolled out after years of great work on it by the um sure uh environmental um commission and others um it's very it's very good not only at you know probing the things that you intend to do but also giving guidance on how to how to meet certain kinds of goals so definely I read I read it today and certainly look at it and keep and and use it as a as a guideline sure good guance guidance um council president saxs yeah I um I just want to thank everyone involved with putting together these plans superintendent Foster I know you you know it's just really commendable how you you came in with a new job and transition and getting up to speed with everything and you just embraced this and have been a really effective advocate for it um and explaining why the schools need it um thank you so much um and Matt I just you know you are Intrepid always what you um you know have everything that you have to coordinate um and the long range facilities planning committee of the school district which I think was Beth Susan Brian um and you know Betsy I I know you're always concerned about the the pedagogy the the impact on on the kids and and how these spaces will influence their ability to learn um I you know hear and I see a lot in your plans that reflect extensive Community input around um when there was pre previously a discussion of of building new school and I think there was strong feedback from the community that they wanted you to expand and focus on the existing schools um and I see that that that's um what happened uh I know it's not easy you're operating in a a shoestring budget and so many uh state regulations involving health and and education all you know um and I know when we talk big picture about you know things that we'd like to see I hope you know we also understand you know that you are keeping these in mind and that you're you know have a million other things that you have to keep in mind that aren't you know what we have to keep in mind on the planning board side um but I um I think this is you know these are just the concept as as as the architect said um but um I can't wait I'm really excited to see how it evolves and and to see the the the the real pictures when when when they come into being and I also want to say that when I was at Community Park School all of my teachers lived in Princeton and they all lived within walking distance of school and it was really meaningful to run into them at the library and um I do hope that the town and the school district can work together it's it's hard the state because of the state framework sometimes it's hard to do the things that um that make sense in that way but I I hope that we can work together to make it possible for more of our teachers to live in in Princeton because it it really makes a big difference for us as a community to have that so thank you all thank you um for all those thoughts Mia well said really um appreciate that and uh Echo the thanks to all of you from the schools who are here tonight are there any other questions from board members um about what we've seen here tonight any any thoughts to share I think you know people were taking notes and there's always the video to come back to um and uh but I don't want to you know drag this out longer than than is necessary if People's uh questions have all been addressed Mr Lesco uh Madame chair if the specific board members don't have any questions I'm happy to run through some things in my memo that you made yes based on kind of the board's General comments I won't go over the whole nine-page document um you all know about the master plan by now um one of the comments or one of the goals in the master plan is to promote enhance the built environment of Princeton through highquality design of public educational and cultural facilities um obviously we don't have any sort of architecturals at this point but I might recommend um just pointing that out uh and hoping this schools follow that as I'm sure they will um if the board agrees with that I'll include that in the memo yes absolutely next up um we just talked a little bit about sustainability and Green Building practices um we did not touch upon things like uh electric vehicle charging stations uh as the uh schools are looking at their parking lots yeah I'm GL I'm glad you brought that up I I am curious about what you um whether you're retr fitting older parking lots in order to create permeable pavement uh or building new ones um and more and more people are driving EVs do you intend to install EV Chargers or if if not I mean don't mean to put you you know if it you know please take it under consideration I'm sorry to interrupt Miss Bing did you baling thank you uh now we have been working with stanville Princeton who's uh partnered with us for uh the third year now um and maybe providing some EV charging stations um so we do look at that Jersey program does have they do have a a grant they do provide grants for that right yeah great and thanks U sorry to be butchering your name apologies it happens quite often thank I'm sure it does uh I see Fred Freddy you have your hand up yeah um along with along with the sustainable sustainability uh things like rain Gardens I don't know roof Gardens um you mentioned at one place you have some kind of drainage Bas and I don't know what you're going to do I know you haven't done your storm water planning yet right but um from I I I represent the environmental commission here and we certainly would like to see whatever you can from an environmental standpoint to do away with regular asphalt Etc um I also would like just to mention that you mentioned the green uh checklist um we are in the process of coming up with comments on it to help people along I wouldn't want you to wait for that because I don't know how long it's going to take but that will be coming along okay when you talked about uh regular payment are you suggesting pervious paper yes yeah as opposed to the ovious that they have they probably have met okay thank you uh thank you so moving on kind of uh uh Freddy mentioned um rain Gardens um I would say just kind of catch all of maximizing green infrastructure uh to treat and to capture and treat uh the storm water on site as it lands yeah and that can be done in a way that's very [Music] um um you know integrated with uh learning environments so but great kind of similarly the comment about uh using native and adapted species uh when choosing plantings yeah okay those were uh mostly the general ones that I had um moving on to each school I think we we were pretty clear about the parking um does anyone want to put into words what the parking lot Community Park how we feel about it uh just a general not recommend doing it for the reason stated earlier I think we would like uh there it's it's really not in the realm yet of how we feel about it it's really um the the the the district needs to go back and figure out what what the what's possible for them because it's plan now involves you know uh the permission of a private property owner so you know they need to figure that out but it sounds like but I don't want to encourage them even if they could get the permission as I've mentioned safety considerations the storm water implications the loss of the trees the and and we haven't even really heard a a cogent uh explanation why it's needed so that would be the the very very minimum if comes back for conditional use approval is we need to understand why they're necessary yeah I don't think that I think it makes an already um difficult situation potentially worse for drivers pedestrians and bikes so um what you said David you know I just wanted to add a a thought um that I meant to mentioned earlier which is uh you know I think David I don't know who mentioned sort of the staggered parking uses and and the town is in the process of the of you know redoing the uh recreational area around uh community park and and there's some discussion of parking reconfiguration I think this is an example of uh where we should be working together to figure out how we can um you know uh stagger the uses so that we can maximize the impervious use of the impervious coverage there yes and also just was talking about that yeah um did you were you I was going to say with regard to what MIA said about the plan for Community Park um also take advantage of that opportunity to think about bike access from those for those coming from the western side of town yeah and um trying to go through to guo and middle school and high school yep thank you um and I also just have a general uh comment that palie said earlier about increasing the bike parking at all three sites great um I think it goes probably without saying based on that parking lot conversation to minimize the tree the mature trees that are taken down um at CP but also elsewhere where possible absolutely okay uh just a minor thing but the site plan that we saw did not have uh the drop off area on Witherspoon Street shown I don't think it's the school's intention to remove that but just want to make clear that that should stay yes all right almost done with uh uh Community Park I feel like Jerry here when he reads the conditions now I get it yeah feeling that pain huh yeah there there was a brief discussion about um having night sky compliant lighting um I think the board might want to uh issue a recommendation you know of incorporating down lights or timers uh all those sorts of things that we often see yes and that would probably be across all three sites yeah and uh moving on to Little Brook right now um again storm waterer as was mentioned that'll be a general comment um there was a a comment that we made about ADA accessible parking spaces it was unclear where they were on that site but I would imagine the schools are looking into maximizing those uh making them close to the buildings and uh you know not creating any issues there is anybody from the the district want to make a comment on that yeah sure we will incorporate barrier-free parking spaces were required I think there's a little indication of that in the middle school but yeah where there where they need to be placed where there's new parking areas we we'll we will we will put them in and obviously there's a ratio we have to follow per the uh per the code excellent um and as I mentioned before it was unclear where those existing dumpsters would go um there's one possible solution that I included in the memo of uh keeping them where they are but changing the entrance to that site um or to that that parking area uh that's obviously not the only solution but um I would mention that if you'd like Madam chair yes great uh bike rcks uh one other comment is that there are potential W LS that may exist on the Little Brook site um and the schools will be required to follow njd regulations uh for those yep we're aware thank you great and then last but not least the Middle School uh and what I have so far is minimize removing the trees in the Walnut fronting storm water area as was commented on by a member of the board um uh there wasn't much discussion on this but there is an ally of trees right now going uh from Walnut to the main entrance there was a note on the plan that trees would be kept on at least one side uh I think it uh you know it would probably be uh best if that kind of La thought was continued on if possible yeah and I would I mean it's maybe not fair to well I I would hope that that you could accommodate your storm water um management without removing any trees at all on that side it's already tight as you said and I know it'll be a challenge but between you know storm water Planters and sailes and permeable pavement Etc you know I feel like you could you can make it happen it'll be it'll be a challenge for your um you know high-powered Engineers looking at you Beth she loves she loves challenges she's great she's smiling already yeah uh Mr Cohen and um Miss Wilson Anderson Davis yeah I just wanted to clarify with the alley of trees that leads to the current front entrance those were all coming out because that's exactly where the addition is correct and the what was discussed was adding a new row of trees along the new walkway going to the main entrance is am I right about that yes as proposed now oh thanks for saying that because I I was not clear on that thank you yeah yeah and and and possibly add more trees L to go too yeah we talked about doing that long yeah sorry thank I I've been corrected more than once so now I feel qualified to correct others uh Claudia uh yes given some of the constrain and characteristics of the land um removal of trees is something that we're clearly trying to avoid as it relates to storm water management and any other design um we did I did hear a mention of green roof Technologies but there's also a growing field on the green and blue roof Technologies uh which I think um was mentioned as a potential educational component perhaps that um that could be a way of also mitigating some of the storm water issues where uh rainwater storage could be handled in the roof and released over time and relieve pressure on a rain Garden at ground level yeah thank you for that got it Mr Cohen yeah and I just wanted to um offer what some words of Praise um for the citing of the additions to Community Park School I think that um while some people may not love that mentry modern um the character of that school is kind of special to me I really love the freeze with the uh the symbol you know the scientific symbols and stuff like that and so um I really appreciate that the architect has uh you know largely preserved the the public facing aspects of that building so that we can continue to enjoy um those of us who enjoy that era of architecture can continue to enjoy me too David here here me too I don't love that period necessarily but I I do love that part of CP so yeah I think it's generally beloved that's great um other thoughts anything else Mr Mr Lesco uh those that all I have now I have a list of about let's say 10 General comments and then another three to seven per school um I'm happy to really be Jerry and read them back or uh if you think I I caught the spirit of it of the conversation um I could type up that memo tomorrow and send it to you madam chair great and it it basic Echoes um points that are that have been made tonight and that are in your memo that's correct or yours and and your colleague memo yep yep great y that sounds good um so this being a courtesy review I don't think that well I'll need your guidance uh Jerry um we we are not taking a vote tonight are we the the the sentiments and feedback of the board are reflected in Justin's memo it's not something that we vote on or memorialize tonight in some way correct okay um all right well um I I think we're done then and I just want to say again as others have said um thank you so much to all of you who are um here on our screen and also in the attendees room there's a uh 10 people in there including several school board members thank you uh very much for all your work on all of this it it is exciting and I know these are really long awaited and very important uh improvements and we really appreciate your uh showing them to us and look forward to seeing the details down the road David thank you thank you thank you all for your time it's much appreciated I move to a journ thank you David um thank you seconded by a whole slew of people um our next meeting is um is in mid October the 17th I think that it is that's correct we do not do not have an early uh APR uh October meeting um so as to avoid the um rashash Shana holiday so it's um almost a month away and I'll see you all then if not before thanks again thank you good night everyone well good night good night good night night have a good night good night