good evening good evening and welcome this is a special meeting of the Princeton planning board on February 22nd 2024 pursuant to section 13 of the open public meetings act adequate notice of the time and place of this special meeting has been given by filing a copy with the clerk of Princeton on the second day of February 2024 notice of this meeting has been posted to the municipal website Princeton nj.gov calendar notice that all regular and special meetings of the Princeton planning board will be held electronically via Zoom was transmitted to the Princeton packet and the times and was filed with the clerk of Princeton on Tuesday January 17 2023 please note that this meeting is being recorded during hearings on applications for development members of the public will have an opportunity to comment and ask questions public comment is heard by the board after an applicant's representative have finished their presentations and have been questioned by planning board members and staff those wishing to comment orally should virtually raise your hand by clicking on the reactions or raise hand icon at the bottom of your Zoom screen or if participating by phone by pressing star n oral comments will be taken in the order in which hands were raised we ask with respect that members of the public express your views in three minutes or less we will have a countdown clock to help speakers keep track of time please note that speakers who exceed 3 minutes will be interrupted inappropriate public comment containing obscenity hate speech or relating to matters not before the board will be muted roll call please Carrie Harry you might be on mute there you go Mr bodimer here miss capoli here Mr Cohen here Mr McGowan here miss Nuka Mr odonnell here miss Pearl mutter Miss Sachs here Mr Taylor Miss Wilson Anderson here Mrs Wilson here we have a quorum thank you um announcements any announcements from board members or staff I don't have any of my own okay seeing none um subcommittee reports do we have any I don't think that we have any subcommittee reports either uh Madam chair yes uh my only sorry SL subcommittee report is that the minor site plan committee has not met yet but will meet uh in one of the first weeks of March we'll send around a doodle Poll for that to discuss an upcoming case okay good um item five on the agenda is resolution slash findings of fact this is uh for the George and Emily Family Trust LLC uh family Emily there's a last name russos I left R I'm sorry thank you it was I knew started with an R but it's not printed on my page George Family Trust thank you uh minor site plan with variance at 246 Nassau Street block 30.02 lot 81 this is file p2323 d381 PM any comments questions or other notes about this resolution and if not would someone like to move it I'll move to approve uh thank you Miss capoli seconded by Mr Coen um call the RO please Carrie Miss capoli yes Mr Cohen yes Mr McAllan yes Mr odonnell yes Miss saxs yes Miss Wilson Anderson yes Mrs Wilson yes motion carried um next up we have an application um from RB homes LLC this is preliminary and major site plan with variances the project is at 375 and 377 tune road that is block 7401 lots 4.01 and 4.02 this is file number p2323 D 309 P um Madam chair yes Mr and service in order and the board has jurisdiction thank you thank you um Mr Lesco yes I'm here okay there you are you're not where you usually are on my screen Justin I'm sorry to say Claudia Wilson Anderson is in that spot um you want to um get us started here yes if you can raise your right hand oh thanks you swear or affirm the testimony about give be the truth I do so want affirmed thank you Jerry and thank you madam chair and good evening members of the board and members of the public I'm going to share my screen and give a brief introduction and orientation to the site of the subject application uh as you heard from the chair the application is for major site plan approval tonight at 375-377 7 tune Road uh what I'm showing Jerry for the record uh NJ goo web mapping publicly available from the njde uh the sub subject partials are in the center and they combine total 2.34 uh or so Acres um they're comprised of a front lot and a flag lot uh that were subdivided from one lot a few years back the front lot contains a five bedroom twostory single family house of about 4,800 Square F feet uh right now and the FL lot is wooded and vacant outside of a gravel driveway right let's mark that as um exhibit pb1 thank you uh and as you can see this this parcel is on the south side of tur Hune Road um this is actually an older picture because uh to the west of the subject site is wind developments uh the Alice multif family uh structure that's currently under construction um Grover Park is to the South just see where the baseball field is residential single family dwellings are to the East and the Avalon Bay thanet multif Family dwellings are across turun to the north uh and to the southeast you'll see the Princeton shopping center is not too far uh part of the application includes a road that would stretch from Terhune to the shopping center uh and we'll get into that later but I just point that out to note that uh Transportation wise NJ Transit 605 and 606 bus lines have stopped at the at the shopping center as does the Muni bus uh the NJ Transit 605 bus also has a stop on tune on the other side of North Harrison Street the subject Parcels are located in the ah7 zoning District which was created after the municipality reached a settlement agreement with the property owner regarding this site uh the settlement agreement came about in late 2020 after an objection to the third round housing plan element and fair share plan that this board adopted in July 2020 uh the site plan application that you'll see tonight is required to be substantially consistent with the concept plan in the settlement agreement moving on to the proposal just again to give an overview uh Jerry here's sheet 11c from the applicant site plan okay let let's mark that as exhibit pp2 okay thank you uh and the Sheet's titled the landscape plan um but I'm showing it because I I think it's a good overview of the whole site uh tune is located over here to the left side of your screen the new road would be towards the bottom of your screen on the west side of the site um and it shows two twostory apartment buildings in the front with three units of COA designated affordable housing within each uh so that would be a one-bedroom a two-bedroom and a three-bedroom in each uh there are nine parking spaces behind those two buildings and the buildings are designed uh in terms of architecture and massing to blend in with the overall residential area uh behind those are four buildings of six town homes each and each pair of buildings fronts a shared green uh each of the 24 town home units includes a two-car garage uh and is four stories in height um I see councilman Cohen uh has his hand up yeah I'm sorry uh Justin I just in terms of the breakdown of the bedrooms for the units right I thought I remembered that it was two three bedrooms three two bedrooms rooms and one one bedroom and the way you described it you said each building had one of each so it would have been two two and two instead of two three and one and I just wanted you to clarify I I believe you're correct I apologize for the error and yep um thank you um now moving on to the east of the site is a 35 foot setback from the property line with the adjacent single family properties as would be up here within that setback is a 15ot lands Cape buffer requirement per the ah7 as well as a fence on the property line uh there's a retention Basin to the south of the site towards Grover Park uh and plantings are shown uh on these landscape plans for that area as well as for the site overall uh to the west of the site is a new road uh that you may have heard about in other applications like that wind development one and would be created if this application was approved there are 10 parallel parking spaces proposed on the new Road uh and it includes three vehicular entrances to this site as well uh additionally new sidewalks are proposed on the new road uh and on tun Road tune is shown as part of the proposed sidewalk network of the master plan overall there are 57 car parking spaces shown to serve the 30 units proposed uh this exceeds the Mac the municipal requirement of 45 spaces under the ah7 but it does not meet the state rsis standards of 70 spaces required uh so the applicant is requesting a DI Minimus exception to the rsis standards from the board uh the number and location of electric vehicle parking spaces should also be clarified by the applicant um there are requirements for bike parking based on the number of bedrooms as well uh but it's unclear exactly how many bedrooms are in the application due to discrepancies between the architectural plans and the site plans uh thus the number of spaces required and where they are located is is unclear uh though they're it's it's required that 80% uh under the municipal ordinance are weather protected uh with the other two uh 20% as short-term uh bicycle parking spaces uh there are three variances being requested one is for the location of a freestanding sign in the corner um another is for the height of the town home uh buildings uh they're asking for four stories where three stories are permitted the height in feet otherwise complies and the third variance is for the facade fenestration on the sides of the town home buildings along the new road uh under a section of the ah7 zoning that requires the uh ratio of solids to voids uh or essentially openings like Windows to walls um to be similar to what is shown on the front and I know uh the engineering and Zoning report gets into that as well and I'm sure we'll discuss that later um I have several comments that I would like to come back to uh if the applicant after their presentation if they're not covered uh Dan and Derek are here with their engineering and Zoning report Victor's here for traffic Dan dorber milski has uh his landscape architecture report and Joe scoan is here on stormwater uh there are also memos from the shade tree commission and the environmental commission uh so with that all being said Madam chair I will turn it back to you uh for the applicant okay thank you I think what I would like to do is um ask our own professionals um Bridger scoan Weissman anos um anybody else to um activate your cameras and get sworn in by Mr meller so that if folks have questions that can quickly you don't have to we don't have to go back to that so everybody's hands raised um Jerry yes um if you could speak for a second because my uh the images only come up after you say something I don't know why hello fine thank you um do you swear or affirm that testimony about to give will be the truth yes sir I do if you could just if you could just State your full name for the record Derek Bridger weissan Joe scopan beos Dan Dober milski well done gentlemen usually have a bunch of dead air when that happens I was about to read names off okay anybody uh have anything to add um from your reports I see Mr Weissman your hand went up um that would be a good time before we turn to the applicant if there's anything in particular you want to draw to our attention thank you madam chair and good evening everybody um just a couple points of clarification um Justin had had mentioned a couple of things and I just wanted to give a brief overview of the engineering and Zoning report um he touched on the the variances that are required um there is one southernmost townhouse structure that requires a height variance uh 45 heat is permitted by code um the calculation for the building height is based off of the lower of the proposed or existing grades the existing grades uh calculate the building height up to 47.4 2 ft is 2.42 ft above uh the permitted height so there's a height variance there um Justin briefly touched upon a a vegetated buffer along the eastern and southernly lot lines Dan could I keep you could I just ask you a question about the uh the height variances uh in your memo um says three stues required and four stues being proposed that's correct also that's correct okay thank you um there's a 15t uh planted vegetated buffer required along the easterly and southernly lot lines that's against the uh single family homes and Grover Park um so we're just requesting that the Board review the efficacy of that that buffer um and there is uh one other issue as it relates to uh residential site Improvement standards rsis uh they require the distribution of water mains to be uh connected in Loops so that Supply uh may be brought to consumers in more than one direction dead in lines are permitted um within the design of a of a loop system provided there's no more than 20 units on a dead end line uh currently the design has one service main servicing all 30 units um so uh I understand the applicant has has worked uh to attempt to alleviate this um if it's not achievable it would be another di Minimus exception to rsis and that's all I have thank you okay um representing RB homes did I see Mr tar are you I am here there you are uh but I noticed that our engineer Jim calic was in and then he dropped out could Carrie see if she can find him and make sure he's in on the as a panelist here he comes yep thank you great um he's here and he just activated his camera Mr tar very good so we thank you very much for hearing us and uh thank Justin and Dan for the introductions um we have four Witnesses uh Daniel barski is the representing the property owner Jim kamalak who's just joined us is the professional engineer Jeremy green is the architect and John mcdna is our planner if uh we could have all four of them swor at once it would save some time yeah she could she could all if you could speak first um just say something so you can get on my screen hello okay great um if you can raise your right hand do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth yes I do so affirm could you please go go around say your full name and spell your last name let's run in the same order Daniel go first uh Daniel RI b a rsk k y and Jim Jim calac C hm i e l a k Jeremy uh Jeremy green g re NE and John John McDon MC capital d o n o u g thank you all uh we have a slide deck of 41 Chris I'm sorry I I don't believe that either your architect or your planner um have presented before the board and if they have I I forgive me I don't remember but uh uh in particular the architect might want to present his qualifications and I think the planner well because I I'm I don't remember them appear right I had in mind to do that as they were prepared to testify we're going to go in order if that's all right I I yeah that's okay yeah thank you fine uh again we have a slide deck of 40 one slides if if with the board's permission we could have the entire deck marked as A1 yeah that'd be fine and with that U you'd certainly know Daniel barski and Daniel's going to kick it off trying to uh begin the orientation process and give you a little bit of the history okay I'm going to share my screen for the PowerPoint you guys see my screen here yes yes yes we can okay excellent uh good evening my name is Daniel barski my father and I own the property at 375 tun road so I'll just describe the property and explain the history of how the ah ah7 came to be um what you hear what you see here on the cover slide are the front facades of the town homes which are part of the application this slide shows our property outline in yellow you can see the existing house uh in the top part of the lot facing tune Road and across from thanet Drive where the Avalon Bay apartments are being built some years ago we got approvals to subdivide our lot into two lots um as just and demonstrated it um with a in a flag lot situation where we're going to build a second house at the rear but uh then the municipality negotiated its affordable housing obligation and as you can see here the town's housing element included the aval Avalon Bay Apartments uh both on fet drive to our North and the shopping center to our South and the wind Apartments uh to our West at that time when these properties in the area were approved we asked to have our uh property become a transitional buffer between those more intense projects and the Residential Properties on grober Avenue on this slide you can see part of the ah7 zoning which was negotiated for our property it allowed for 30 units six of which uh will be affordable and 24 uh which will be Market units and unlike any of the other projects that are around us including the two Avalon Bay projects and when uh our Market units will be sold as Town Homes as opposed to rentals our agreement with the municipality included this concept plan uh which is Illustrated on this slide for the 30 units um what you can see here is tune road on the left uh and the two affordable houses facing turun with the four town home buildings to the rear and and um as we go through the presentation our professionals will testify in Greater detail um to the plan that we're presenting and as we continue through the slides the agreement actually specified what the affordable housing Mr Mr Bari as you go through if you could identify what page of the slide which slide you're on as you we're on page six if you look in the bottom right corner a little just for the record I wanted yeah we're on slide six now uh um the agreement um actually specify what the affordable housing should look like and you can see them here the intent was that they have the look of a single family home uh whereas each building actually contains three separate units these units are the most front-facing on tun Road and because of the topography will be the most prominent buildings as you pass down to Hune Road also one very important ele El that Justin touched on is beyond the contribution of the six affordable units um was of the agreement that us and our neighbor wi would be responsible to build and pay for a new access road from tune Road into the rear of the shopping center as uh Illustrated here you can see it on the concept plan and then I've highlighted it through the property in yellow um you know since the time the ah7 Zone was established we have gone under contract with Toll Brothers to develop the site and as I'm sure you know Toll Brothers last job in Princeton I believe was edal Farms which I think um is um is highly regarded and most people agree is an attractive nice site and tol has the industry experience to build this job quickly and effectively and I'm excited to be working with them on this opportunity um the following slides I'll turn over to Jim calac our engineer who'll testify to the more site specific details Mr calik we need to qualify you sure uh James kamalak professional engineer uh K show resources I've testified many times here before this board been practicing site planning and civil engineering for over 20 years here in the state of New Jersey um and with a bachelor's degree in the field of uh civil and environmental engineering for MERS University thank you we accept your qualifications thank you so good evening everyone just to get started here on this slide number eight we can see the overall outline of the subject property here lots 4.01 and 4.02 with tun road to the north which is on top of the page um as well as Grover Avenue uh to the right the 50 Foot Right of Way we have Grover Park to the South and the wind or Alice Apartment project directly to the left or to the west and this gives a larger view of the area which Daniel viewed in terms of the aerial maps previously you can see our lot uh ah7 Zone and it's surrounded by uh the SC Zone as well as the o to the North and the R5 District uh to the east or to the right with existing single family homes uh to the East and as Justin opened up here in the meeting this evening uh this project contains 30 residential units and here is a summary of the dwelling unit distribution just for clarity purposes we have four um town home buildings um four in total that will be three bedroom consisting of 24 units and that's a clarification to um a note that we had on one of the plans that indicated for bedroom but this will be testified uh further in detail by the architect a little bit later in the presentation they are three bedroom units um yielding a total of 24 and in the affordable residences we have two buildings as previously mentioned um we have uh one build building number one has a one-bedroom unit as well as two three-bedroom units and aordable residence building two um has three two-bedroom units for a total of of 30 units as indicated let me interrupt let me interrupt if I may in my misunderstanding I thought you're saying all of the units have three bedrooms but that's not what the dwelling unit somebody says all of the town home un the town home buildings oh I see as shown here on this table so that's the first part of the table and then we clarify the number of bedrooms the two thank you uh Triplex buildings in addition uh these are the zoning requirements as indicated on the plan for the ah7 zone and it includes various data including as we just spoke of the allowed number of dwelling units which complies uh both for the um aord aable residences or the two buildings at the front as well as the Town Homes at the rear uh additionally um the various setbacks the front yard setbacks sidey yard setbacks uh both on the east and west side we'll take a look at the map and and highlight those for you so that they're clear and also um from a onside parking standpoint as previously mentioned we have 55 spaces that exceeds the municipal requirements um and requires a an exception from rsis because the parking demand is slightly higher from that uh standpoint there and then in summary as previously mentioned we have a few components of variance relief um one is here tb10 B the town townhouse facades on the western side are facing the access road there's a ratio of the amount of surface area to walls um I'm just highlighting them here they're going to be spoken to in more depth by our project architect um but the data here is indicated on slide 12 in terms of what the proposal includes um and what the requirements are for these various pieces of relief so we have this ratio of Windows to walls as item number one uh secondly as Daniel previously mentioned um the number of stories where when the ordinance was was written for the ah7 uh it was indicated as three total stories um and a height of 45 feet uh but the way that it's being interpreted at this point in time is that the proposed buildings are defined as um four stories in height and again we'll speak our project architect will speak um to more detail uh a little bit further here in the presentation and the last component here relative to this the height of townhouse number four it's the building all the way at the rear and given the topographic relief um in the existing condition on the property and the way that the land slopes uniquely in that specific area uh the actual existing grade um height calculation is slightly higher than that which is allowed however in the proposed condition it does comply and the last component here at the bottom of slide 12 is the sign setback for a small sign for this development up at the corner of the new access road and ter hun which we'll look about here in a minute where 15 feet is required of a setback from the RightWay lines on both roads and we're proposing 10 feet on tune and S feet on the access road again we'll look at um that more closely in the following slides in terms of the parking I I did mention uh 57 stalls are proposed which complies with the ordinance again a DI Minimus exception would be a component of this and then also 15% um make ready uh evsc stalls will be provided as part of that project of this project and we'll speak to the locations of that and how that'll be achieved in the following slides slide number 14 is a summary of the calculation of required bicycle parking for this project this is consistent with what is on our design plans uh additionally it's consistent with the dwelling unit summary that Mr Mueller inquired about on the previous slide uh where we we clarify the number of bedrooms in that particular table and it is consistent with what we're proposing here on this slide and as you can see in the upper right hand corner just in summary um there are 52 spaces total um 42 long-term and 10 short-term bicycle parking spaces which complies with the ordinance we did take some time to review this with Mr Weissman prior to tonight's meeting uh just to make sure that our calculations are in line with one another and we did confirm that um even though there was a prior question as to um the accuracy based on the bedroom count it was concluded that our table is correct here uh and that the summary 52 spaces is is what's being provided which equals what's required slide 15 gives you an overall outline of the the detail of the existing conditions of the property uh the front lot is approximately 90 of an acre because this is comprised of two sublots the rear is approximately 1.4 acres um Additionally you can see that in the existing condition there is an existing single family dwelling highlighted in in the pink color on the left or the north side of the property um with an existing driveway and then a stone driveway for a future Residence at the rear and then one additional note we like to clarify is that um in the central portion of the property where there is that open area currently um this particular plan here is accurate there was a a wooded label in the central portion of the property um and we've relabeled that uh appropriately where the existing trees are located where um there are no currently existing trees in the central portion of the property so just to clarify that was one of the questions that came up in the review memo and on the compliance plan we'll make sure that that's clarified as well so in terms of the overall site to give the picture of the details of the layout uh of the overall property and the original um concept plan as um coordinated with the municipality several years ago this is consistent with that plan you have the two affordable residential buildings up at the front in blue um that front on tun road with three units each and then we have town home one two three and four which are staggered uh as you proceed from the front to the rear of the property and the new access road at the bottom of the page which would be to the West um so to clarify some of the the items of Interest with this particular layout um an integral component is um here access from the new access road which you can see uh as well as um several Courtyards that are spread uh throughout the town home complex um which will have uh open um open space area that'll be landscaped and that's all in accordance with the ordinance requirements I think if you flip over to the next slide slide 17 you can see that from a a zoning and a setback standpoint the green line is the overall building setbacks that are required and and the buildings comply with those setbacks um specifically on the North side or the top portion of the page as the property abuts the single family residences and that prop blue property line to the north we have a 35 foot setback in that location which has an allocated area for the 15 foot wide um easement that would um is included as part of this project where we would have landscape buffering in that particular area and the same is true for the right side of the plan or the rear of the property we've added that 15 foot wide easement line that previously was not on the plan but we've added it to this and that's that is a component here of The Proposal additionally excuse me for interrupting um Mr um Kik what kind of easements are those they're buffer easements buffers right okay yeah for the landscape buffers yeah yes now I remember that in the memos I just yeah so up on top we have the buffer to the single family residences um and the ordinance has some stipulations on on how to achieve that as well as a buffer to Grover Park which is on the right hand side of this plant or at the very rear of the property got it thanks um this slide also highlights slide number 18 um the overall uh driveways as they come in onto the subject property from the new Access Road in Gray we have three of them one at the front uh one in the central portion of the property and then a last one at the rear again they would all be accessed via the new Access Road uh which has been designed by the adjacent property um and this is consistent with the coordination and outline in Geometry coordinated with the town previously L um we've indicated here from a an EV space standpoint that we would have two EV spaces up in the um first parking area behind the affordable residences and we've highlighted that on this exhibit um that would be if this is approved part of the compliance set Incorporated um into that to provide those two spaces and then additionally for the remaining Town Homes uh in the parking locations which is located within their twocc car garages of each town homes they will be EV Make Ready um EV spaces within each of those units so we anticipate that out of the overall six EV spaces that are required that that would be um substantially met um with Provisions that we are including within the plan as part of the design um lastly before we go on to the next slide we did provide some uh turning templates uh to this plan which were previously coordinated with Dean Stockton with input from the the Fire official as well at that time just to demonstrate General access from the new Access Road into each of the driveways and you can see that highlighted at the bottom of the page uh in red that was one of the comments um from your traffic expert and we included that on this exhibit just to demonstrate that um that that was incorporated and thought about earlier on additionally this slide um shows the courtyard component which was an important part of this overall uh concept you can see in the central portion of the lot we have two main Courtyard areas um between the four town home buildings and then as well at the front of the property between the two affordable residences we do have an outdoor area uh in that location as well and um to provide some outdoor space in terms of a hardscaping area and some green space uh in between in between those two buildings um to support those residences we'll talk a little bit more about the details of that when we look at the landscape plan in a little bit more detail um but the last uh component that we can we go back to slide 19 that we should just highlight is that um within the driveways we do have um green storm water infrastructure with perious pavement within the three proposed driveways that you see here on this slide additionally we have um three uh green infrastructure storm water components that are vegetated that include um two rain Gardens and bio retention areas in the courtyards as well as at the rear of the site we also have a bio retention area um again which was area that was contemplated previously as part of the prior concept and on this plan and if you look at our plans in more detail we do meet the spacing within the courtyards where I believe 60 feet was requested as part of the ordinance to have sufficient space or width of the courtyard and that is met in the closest portion uh of the buildings down at the bottom of the page and then the way the buildings are slightly staggered so they're not so so square and orthogonal the courtyards open up and become larger as you go towards the grover area residences so we thought that that um that alignment was advantageous and provided some opening of that green space and expansion from 60 feet to 76 feet okay next slide so this is our our landscape plan and we've included some um some notes as to the uh outdoor features that we've included as part of the design um if we look at the left-and side of the plan uh out on ter Hune road we can note that there were two uh there was a 6 inch and a 7inch magnolia um that the town was eager to have um not just removed but relocated and replanted we did include that we also kept them within the front yard so they're highlighted uh in the in the front yard on ter Road additionally in between the two affordable residences we included um approximately a 20 by uh a minimum of a 25 foot wide area of of open um grass green space with some landscaping and shrubs in between the two buildings as we were highlighting here with our Green Space patio we also have a bike rack area a short-term bike rack area at that location uh and a bench at that location near where the tree is in between those two front buildings um to provide some outdoor space one of the comments in the review memos was to uh increase some variety in the species selected for the street trees where currently we have London plain tree along the front of Turan Road as well as uh red maple along the new access road and we put a note on here noting the street trees that were proposed um and we'll also we agreeable to certainly uh increasing the variety of those trees which was one of the comments to have some diversity in the street trees as opposed to uh one consistent monoculture um on the bottom of the page with the new access road we we note that we have um Frontage Landscaping at that location which um what we feel does a nice job to provide um Foundation plantings um as well as ground covers with some interest and basically almost entirely native species um within that particular uh area we've included leather leaf viburnum greybush Virginia sweet Spire little blue stem Standing Ovation grasses um and golden ground seal ground cover um in certain areas where there may be some occasional uh foot traffic and to provide some variety so attention was paid to the frontage Landscaping along the new access road at the ends of the town home buildings as well as at the end of the affordable residence number two which is closer to the corner I I'm sorry to interrupt but with the two Magnolias you're talking about the two large Magnolia in front yeah did did you just say that you were planning to replant them yes they will be relocated okay because that was not actually what the town had requested the town had requested that um and uh I mean I don't see how those trees survive if they're if they're replanted and I believe the the um agreement was that the that they would remain where they are I mean we can talk about that later but we should come back to that I I don't think that was what was was requested or agreed upon so maybe we can come back to that later okay yeah put a pin in that thank you Mia um excuse me if I could ask on the landscape plan where it says to relocate magnolia trees in front yard is that the proposed area where they're going to be located those would be the yeah the proposed locations as we showed on our plan okay thank you um additionally our are labeled near the new access road at the bottom of the page our PL show uh Courtyard pergolas with a patio venes and a bike rack at each entry from the public sidewalk to each Courtyard area and we provide further detail of that on our plans um and we also included as part of the landscape plan uh within the courtyard Green Space uh new trees that are native um provide some vertical structure and buffering between the buildings um those species are black gum uh fruitless sweet gum River Birch uh Etc so we have some um vertical component and and you know vegetation within that that green space within um the rain Garden area if you look on top of the page in between the buildings within the courtyard you can see that we've also included a small patio and seating area uh at each uh further end to provide an area for people to congregate and to sit uh as well as surrounding that area with with trees and shrubs um to further provide interest for that um the last main component uh along the easterly or the top portion of the page is that um landscape buffer in the back of the residences along the common property line that Miss Wilson was inquiring about previously uh and you can see that it's shown here in our landscaping and we have an evergreen buffer that we're proposing for that consisting of four different species uh American holly Norway spruce White Pine and Japanese Cedar um spaced approximately 10 feet apart uh which we feel would provide a substantial Evergreen buffer at that location um of evergreen trees and the planting height uh as proposed for the Japanese Cedar uh because as you can see on the plan they are alternated um along the length of that the property line to provide interest uh of six to S feet at planting the American holly as well at six to seven feet and then we increase the height uh to 8 to n feet for the Norway spruce and the eastern white pine um for those particular species to to provide some addition height uh in addition to that um we also are proposing a 6 foot high solid fence along that property line we will show you a detail here in a minute uh but it would be a a PVC fence that would be solid I think there were some questions in the review memos as to would there be gaps uh Etc could you provide additional detail so uh the applicant is proposing a solid PVC fence 26 feet in height um and we can show you that detail here on the following slide that's on the left hand side as I spoke to a solid fence um six foot high PVC if you go back to the previous slide slide 20 um at the rear of the site where we have the bio retention facility um behind townhouse number four or at the right hand side of the plan uh we have several different tree selections at that location um and they include uh s gum black locust um several species of Oak uh swamp white oak as well as Willow Oaks uh London plain tree uh some Norway spruce down there in the southwestern Corner as well um to provide some um tree buffering at that location and also selection that are native um but also um generally suited to the area that they're located relative to the storm Water Management Facility at that location um so that would that would be a a buffering element um at the rear portion of the site and um that easement line would be incorporated into the plan as well um we've included on slide 21 the sanitary manhole detail that was one of the comments um on next slide 22 one of the landscape comments was some potential concern or at least look at and see how to address um the future viability of Street trees between the sidewalk to be constructed and the curb line to be constructed and we did include this detail here of incorporating um CU structural soil under the full width of the sidewalk uh to provide what Mr Dober milski was alluding to to provide supplemental area for tree roots uh to migrate and have sufficient soil volume to suit their viability so that's already on the plan uh it's on one of the plan detail sheets but we just reiterated it here and that should address um that comment can I just ask it might be prudent to go back a couple slides to the landscape plan while we have trees um in our heads uh at this point in time there was some discussion there about um the overall Heights of the trees and and perhaps increasing their height um and and as part of the design we did we did take into consideration two things uh one thing as I mentioned was um not making all six to S foot high trees across the whole uh property line we did increase uh two of the species in the 8 to n foot range at planting and then they would grow from there and then also two of the species that we did include are also relatively um quick growing species we don't have any low rate uh growing species we have medium uh and quicker growing species that include the eastern white pine and the Norway spruce so I just wanted to to let you know that we did take that into consideration both the height at planting and then the rate of growth number two so um we can go back to the next slide 23 this is our overall utility plan um in red you can see storm water management piping throughout the site interpers throughout the buildings um as well as on the top of the page the green uh sanitary sewer would be extended for this project from Terhune Road uh the very end of what exists along the easterly property line um to serve the the six new buildings uh additionally we have gas and electric that would follow the new access road at the bottom of the page within the RightWay Corridor and there would be approximately a 520 foot 8 inch water main extension from Terhune Road um extending to the right or to the south in the new Access Road uh providing one two three new hydrants uh along that overall length and a new 8 inch water m and given the unique um conditions and orientation with ownership of adjacent properties um this is the location and orientation of what we have available to us in terms of the water main extension um if you go to the next slide uh let's go one more slide yeah slide number 25 here you can see again that heavy Blue Line in the central portion of the property um um we've coordinated with New Jersey American Water this orientation is their their preference um for um what they want to see as part of their system in the future we reviewed options with them um but but this type of arrangement is what they're looking for in terms of an extension and we've highlighted on this plan we did coordinate with uh Michael yay the Emergency Services um coordinator uh this main extension as well as with uh Dan Weissman and the relative um distances to hydrants in the area um in the ability to serve um and he was in general uh agreement um with this overall layout one of the suggestions that he had here um was the hydrant that's on tun Road the very first one coming in the access road which the pointer is pointing at um if we're able to coordinate connecting that that single hydrant to the tun Road existing water M that would be an improvement and a benefit um and we're certainly willing to pursue that with New Jersey American um to see if if we can make the connection to the North or to the left instead of to the west or to the South uh to the new main so um this is the you know the overall configuration that we have here you can see the the window development uh at the bottom of the page and that that shows their their parking areas and their building um down at the bottom of the page and then you have Princeton shopping center which is another private property in the lower right hand corner of the slide as well as Grover park at the rear of our site as you go up and then the single family properties is on Grover Avenue so um this is the sort of the background and and the reasons why uh we need that exception with rsis and the looping um our plans include an overall lighting plan for the the subject property we've included dark sky ordinance compliant LED fixtures um entire entirely down fixtures uh mostly at building entrances and then some wall fixtures um that are down lights over the the drive AES um and the courtyard areas and several of the walkways throughout the site we've included LED Ballard fixtures uh which are low-level lighting to support The Pedestrian walkability and nighttime hours and um support that effort without having extensive larger Lighting on the site um the ballards do do suit that well we have some accent lighting uh around the patio in the trees at the outdoor seating areas as I mentioned uh in the courtyard areas um as well but uh overall these are dark sky LED fixtures um in a downward orientation to to eliminate um glare on adjacent properties slide 27 highlights for us um what is shown on our plan and that is uh the freestanding sign up at the front of the property near the intersection of the new access road and turun road um where the ordinance requires a 15 foot setback from the RightWay line and in this particular condition um because of the the distance of the curb lines to the RightWay line which is um somewhat extensive with green space in between uh and the sidewalk uh and the fact the sign that is incorporated into um the retaining wall and garden wall that extends into the front yard um technically we're providing a 10- foot setback from the sign which is relatively small as you can see there it's um 3 foot 4 in and 3 foot 8 in um in in Dimensions that will be hanging um we're providing 10 feet and S feet but in reality if you if you measured the setback to the curb line it's approximately 29 feet from Terhune Road and 21 feet from the new access road so with those substantial distances um and the location of the sign and the RightWay to the curb lines in this particular case uh relief is being sought because the sign does need to be visible from the roadway in a suitable location and it does not impact the the sight lines from the intersection which are highlighted on this exhibit with the red line uh in in both directions so there's no impact to that um but administratively the way the ordinance is written we're requesting relief um this particular slide highlights the rear townhouse number four and this is a this is a sketch um that illustrates the unique topographic condition at on the west end of the building uh where the ordinance requires the building height to be calculated from the average grade around the building all the way to the ridge in the proposed condition with the proposed grading because we are smoothing out um the property it complies with the 45 ft and is well under the 45 ft overall height in the proposed condition but because the way the ordinance is written the calculation has to go from what the existing grade was um given this condition because the property is a little steeper in that location and a little bit lower um the overall height calculates to 47.4 two feet um which slightly exceeds the 45 foot maximum when you measure it to the existing and the sketch to the left shows the existing Contours and how in this particular unique area they're relatively close and that's what's driving this calculation on on the existing height to be slightly higher than the 45 feet um so technically um you know it's more of an administrative condition we're requesting um relief from that um but all of the other buildings um comply with the 45 ft um they're all the same finish floor to uh Ridge elevation um but in this case because of this location uh it's Unique and and we're requesting that relief based on this topographic condition that's it Jim for yours and we're ready to move on to Jeremy good evening Jeremy uh green uh I'm just going to give a couple of details and then ask you to fill in the history of your involvement as an architect you're employed by to Brothers yes and you're a registered architect in the state of New Jersey I am and you were responsible for the overall preparation of the certainly the townhouse drawings and the final work on the affordable residences that's accurate uh for the board's benefit could you just give us some more detail about how many years you've been working in New Jersey and for toll and the projects that youve worked on sure um I've been practicing uh architecture for over 20 years I've been with Toll Brothers for nearly 14 years um and I oversee all of the architecture developed for the communities um that are managed by the New Jersey home building operations um I have a bachelor of architecture from Syracuse University Madam chair we offer Mr Green as a expert in architecture thank you we we accept your qualifications thank you um this first screen um is just a sort of comparative um analysis of showing the typical town home buildings um in relationship to the scale and architecture of the affordable residences um you think you'll see that we've used consistent materials throughout the community uh to create um a homogeneous um you know look throughout uh no differences between the the quality and uh type of materials between the homes on uh the three affortable residence homes on trune and the town homes that are at the rear portion uh of the community um if as slide 29 if we could advance to slide 30 um this is the first affordable unit this is to the um I guess it would be the Northeast on the screen it's uh highlighted in blue in the bottom uh left hand corner of the screen indicating um its location on the site which was uh described by uh Mr chock earlier on um this just goes through the different uh arrangement of homes um within this three-unit building um and I know that there was a couple questions in a variety of memos to address things like bike parking which uh was already the calculations were already um addressed um as well as uh trash recycling removal um so if you uh can see at the bottom of uh the entrance of say the orange unit um adjacent to the entrance to the um the darker red unit and uh at near the entrance of the pale uh orange unit um there are bike spaces allotted for that um two per unit um there's a little visual up here in the upper right hand corner that indicates a stacker tile style bike where two bikes can be attached to a frame um that's mounted on a wall um if you'll go to the upper leftand corner of the screen you'll see there's a room uh at the rear uh which is labeled trash recycling that has a space enough for several trash and recycling containers uh and back behind it is the sprinkler service which is required for uh these these types of buildings um if we could advance to the next slide um this is the uh these are the elevations uh for this affordable residence one that I just described um you saw the front elevations already but the you see the front sides and rear elevation so the front elevation faces turun the rear elevation faces the uh parking area that has the EV charging um and the accessible spaces uh the bike area and in between um you know the homes you'll have that little green space at Hardscape area um and then these just illustrate again the sides uh the left side elevation is to the residence to the Northeast and the right side elevation is facing the access rad uh and as I described before we're consistent with materials around um the entire uh residence we can go to the next um this is the second affordable residence which is close to the access road in the sign that was just described um this again just indicates the variety of um bedroom counts and very similarly there are bike uh rack locations throughout in each of the units the same uh bike rack style proposed uh same uh trash uh recycling location and sprinkler utility incoming Water Service locations as well um we could advance to the next which is the elevations again very consistent with what was um in the settlement agreement um and this again just describes the front side and rear elevations of that uh build building which is close to the access Drive I think we can go to now to the town home buildings the town home buildings again in the bottom lefthand corner uh as you've already seen this is just a key of a showing a typical Arrangement uh on the screen here is is an end unit um just because that has relevance to a slide later on where I speak about the solid void uh ratios um so just describing briefly the ground floor level is a small uh recess porch with a foyer uh stair up uh to the to the second floor living level uh you have a small Flex space uh off to the side there and you have um basically your closet storage area um in the garage itself you have a two-car garage at the back of the garage if you can see on the left most slide here there's an allocation for bike spaces and if you look down in the lower right hand corner here's an example of how um a resident could probably fit two to maybe three bikes uh in that space which is probably about 10 ft wide uh or 8 ft wide and then next to that we also designate space for uh recycling the trash we did increase the depth of these garages uh to allow for these uh items to be uh placed um in the in the back there um going up to the second floor level uh again I described this as the living level this has a great room casual dining and the kitchen in the rear along with a pantry and u a powder room continue up to the third floor which is the call The Bedroom level um there are two um bedrooms in the front of the building excuse me U facing the Green Space you have all your circulation and bath uh and laundry in the center of the house and you have your primary bedroom and closet primary bath to the alley uh back of the home continuing up to the Loft Terrace level we have a small Loft space which provides uh you know some entertainment uh space some casual space um that will access a rooftop Terrace where we have uh intent to locate the condenser unit for the uh for these units so that it did not have any ground engagement and was isolated from a sound perspective from the rest of the development um and again just to the to the right of that is just a typical roof uh showing that there's a recess to that roof de second just a simple uh shingle pitched route the residences themselves as I note here are about 2,300 ft for the end units of living space and the uh on the ends and the interior units are slightly larger because we had to account for the brick um to fit within our overall footprint and setback lines um we can go to the next slide um here's a illustration of the Town Home Building uh they're all very similar as described uh same height from finished War to Ridge there are some variations in the grade and in the locations of of the drops of the garages based upon uh fitting into the uh the uh very delicate um grading that was provided by the engineer um the front Courtyard elevation which fronts the uh green spaces that were described uh indicate again six dwelling units that are accessed off of the recess porches uh some of them have balconies that open up or large window spaces uh again lots lots of glass and uh and and detail uh architectural detail along there metal roof accents uh panel Bays Etc um the rear elevation down to the right hand corner shows the the Alleyways um and you can see up on that uh upper level where your roof Terrace would uh come across there driveway access in rear of house um and your primary bedroom on the third level and then the two end elevations the one on in the middle of the page is the one that would be facing the residences um up on Grover and the one to the mo leftmost is a typical location of the one that's facing the axis area uh there is allocation on that uh slide for a sprinkler access room which again sprinkler protection is required for this project as well as at the edges of the garage um on the bottom left of that of that uh slide to the left left most bottom corner there's an area allocated for utilities which uh was described in the landscape plan will be buffered by landscaping and then I think we can go to the really my final slide and this is addressing the first um variance that was uh shown in uh the engineer's um uh summary on his I think his in one of his initial slides so what I've done here um at the uh at the request of of the applicant was to indicate um where we had opportunities for fenestration or you know openings in the wall solid void uh so uh the plans to your rightmost side uh key in areas where there's obstructions if you will um that would prohibit us from having um you know additional Windows uh and and openings and those locations uh so again you can see the foundation drops a little bit to the rear uh So that obviously is an area we even though these are garage spaces to increase the ratio we did provide two um windows in the garage which is not terribly typical of of like a town home Unit A lot of times there might be one so we provided two um and you can see um down on that plan on the bottom uh right hand corner we have two windows and then I indicate the sort of an obstruction for the sprinkler room then to the right you have a flex room which we also introduced a window into which is in addition to the three Windows uh that are at the front uh of the building um going up to the second level you can see with our uh way our kitchen is oriented at the rear the wall cabinet space uh the hanging wall cabinet space takes up room where I've labeled a kitchen uh then once we get past that we have an opportunity for a projected Bay a slightly projected Bay with a double window for a dining room we get to the great room on the second floor as you move to the right of the page you can see that we do introduce two large Windows um in that location allowing for you know Furnishing of that space in between those two windows uh at the third floor moving from the back uh the back of the third floor to the front um you can see we have our primary closet and primary bath Arrangement as soon as we had an area to be open we did introduce two windows above an optional tub then we have our hall bath and closet for our front bedroom um and then when you get to your Loft Terrace level we're talking about you know a lot of roof structure as well as areas that are generally you know not you know where glast is not needed even though we do have a Louver uh which we did include in the calculation as a solid void simply because you have um you have sliding glass doors uh and a window that would go and give light from the roof Terrace so um after we went through all that um you know our our uh elevation that we looked at for the courtyard was roughly you know a little over 27% solid devoid and this end elevation ended up being about 11.6 so we're asking for Relief on just the grounds of you know the way that the spaces are laid out um and that's we attempted to maximize uh as you can well see the number of Windows that uh we could get in there I think what's also important to show it and this is a uh a diagram from the engineers packet um where it shows when the trees on site will be mature you really are going not going to see a lot of this so um this is all going to be screened from the access road in the adjacent development very effectively once you get into the mature screening so I think um our effort you know to add the all these additional windows in these spaces uh or or provide these in these spaces as well as what uh ultimately will be the site profile along that roadway um you know offers you know we believe is an acceptable solution to uh that stipulation in the ordinance and with that the last screen again is just um if you could advance to the screen 37 is just again showing uh this if there's any questions U before you finish up Jeremy uh Daniel could go back to slide 34 please 34 the issue of the number of bedrooms uh has come up and it's been answered uh more specifically there was a request from staff that uh that toll confirm that the flex room which appears on the first floor to the left and the Loft room which appears on the second slide from the right that neither of those spaces will be marketed to the public when these units are sold as bedrooms can you confirm that that's tolls posture yes that is correct the only thing that may be optioned in that flex room is probably a pair of French doors okay they would not be marketed to the public as bedrooms correct okay uh we're ready for testimony from Mr John mcdna we um before we do do that um Mr Cohen has got uh his hand up and then um Justin letco go ahead David well I I actually am willing to wait till after the planner I just put my hand up because uh Mr Green said he was going to pause for questions so I do have questions for him but I can wait till after the planner presents okay sure Mr Lesco yes thank you madam chair I just wanted to follow up on uh the question and answer that uh Mr tar just asked and Mr Green responded to so they won't be marketed the the flex space and the Loft as bedrooms but do you find those are used as bedrooms in other communities uh with similar types um no I mean with modern day work um a lot of work from home typically those spaces in ends up becoming rooms for kids to do their homework or for the spouse to grab a location a quiet location uh if the other spouse might be working you know upstairs or in the bedroom so we're finding that those spaces are being capitalized for um uh for you know education spaces and for for work spaces understood thank you thanks Justin uh Chris before John testifies let me just address the the four stories uh right ahead you're on slide 38 we're on slide 38 um uh so I like to comment on the height of the Town Homes the town home units you see here uh are actually shorter than the 45 foot maximum permitted height but they do have a LOF room like Jeremy testified to within the roof structure which gives access to the mechanical units and the outdoor deck and which could be considered a story by the way of background um uh I know that when we came to agreement on the terms of the ah7 at that time if the ceiling height was less than 6'1 um it wasn't considered a stor um these units are designed that way where the Lofts are at a ceiling Hut of 6'1 and were intended to be conforming but after the agreement was reached the town lowered the allowable seiling height uh to 5 feet and therefore the Lofts are considered a story even though they are within the attic structure um more importantly on this slide slide 39 we believe that what is important is that the tow houses uh from finished slab to Ridge are less than 45 ft maximum permitted height and actually on this slide I'm showing you a town home um on the left is the townhouse we're proposing and on the right is Avalon Bay Town Home Building uh across the street they both visually appear as three story buildings actually if you look at the details ours is less than 45 ft um Avalon Bay is more than 45 ft but was considered three stories the main takeway here is that we're in we're compatible and we we're in harmony with the other town home units in the area which actually happen to be taller to the ridge but classified as three stories were classified as four but we do think we meet the intent and the height being the critical element here um and now I'll I'll turn over the the end of the presentation to John McDon our planner for his testimony thanks thanks Daniel John uh again I'm going to do the same thing your CV indicates that you're a landscape architect a professional planner uh you're certified by the American Institute of certified planners I'm going to U let you uh elaborate on that but you've testified before Princeton zoning board recently as the planner for The Graduate hotel which is being instructed at 20 Nassau perhaps you could give the board some other additional background on your experience sure Chris thank you hi everybody and yes to all of the above um I'm a licensed professional planner here in the state of New Jersey that license is current and in good standing I am also a member of the American Institute of certified planners which is a national certification I have served on the executive committee of the New Jersey chapter of the American Planning Association um and I am also a landscape architect a licensed landscape architect here in the state of New Jersey that's not my role here with this particular project but I certainly do rely on that design expertise as part of my planning conclusions um I was both the landscape architect and the Planner on The Graduate Hotel project uh which we know is um coming soon um and I've testified uh on at least a half dozen applications here mostly before your zoning board uh in the last couple years I do have the Good Fortune of getting to see the entire state of New Jersey um I do this on a nightly basis from down in the southern tip where I was in carne's point last week all the way to the northern tip where I was in Hardon last week and of course our west side and uh the great urban areas on the east side as well and here in the core again I've been in front of the Princeton board and your surrounding communities Montgomery Trent and West Windsor hope well Hamilton Montgomery cranberry The Windsor um we have we have 500 municipalities Madam chair before he I hope at least some of those places you mentioned have zoom meetings um we a lot of on my car Madam chair go ahead John sure okay so we I think I have two screens here and I can't see that number in the lower right hand corner Dan but I'm I'm going to say again I have 40 40 okay 40 we're just going to start with an overview we're just going to hit the main planning points you have good I'll say predicate foundational testimony from the witnesses that have gone before me uh in terms of the planning conclusions that I'm about to render uh from Daniel from Jim on the engineering side and from Jeremy on the architectural side you're going to see as we go through the explanation of the application here that the relief is relatively minor in the context of your zoning scheme uh this application starts with a very uh laudable public purpose and I I would say community uh kudos to the community to the community leadership and to the planning board for a very well written master plan your 2023 plan your 2020 uh affordable housing compliance element um and then of course the zoning that followed that and this ah7 Zone District which has a laudable public purpose and and Echoes the master plan and the affordable housing element to put persons of low and moderate income close to Transit shopping employment Civic amenities and recreational amenities which is exactly what this application does as an inclusionary project uh where the affordable units uh will have the same access to amenities as the market rate units and it is one nice cohesive package in line with the plan that was part of the settlement package um as you can see it's very well buffered you heard a lot of detail about that through Jim's testimony and I think that's echoed through your own Landscape Architects report that the screening will be effective I think the shade tree also offer shade tree commission also offered some some positive comments and good constructive uh criticism to get the project to land where it has um you've heard the testimony about the courtyards I really liked what the environmental commission had to say connection to Nature creates a calming environment which is beneficial for mental health the courtyards have four season appeal and engage the residents so a very well-designed well-balanced well-planned development that substantially aligns with all of those laudable goals and purposes of your ah7 Zone District you see the plan before you there again we've got the four market rate buildings and then the two triplexes for the affordable units we've got the access road which is going to provide a circulation benefit as well um and then of course in terms of the Zone conformance this project is going to comply not only with all of your use requirements in the ah7 zone District but substantially comply with all of your bulk requirements especially those that are on the higher tier the density the coverage the access the circulation the buffering here the compositional aspects of the buffering the Landscaping the setbacks on every side complies with your ah7 Zone requirements so in terms of the actual relief that the applicant is seeking um the applicant is asking the board to move on preliminary and final major site plan approval with relief related to the building height and that only pertains to the building all the way to the right that you see townhouse building number four and the lower right hand corner where relief is sought due to again I'll call it a technicality or a slope a slope anomal anomaly the building is not being raised up excessively out of the ground to give it an unfair height Advantage but given the fact that your ordinance does measure based on the average existing grade we have a little dip over there in the corner and that's what's triggering this technical measurement of 47.4 two for that last building townhouse 4 on the right where 45 ft would be the maximum that's permitted under the ordinance again under the proposed condition when that grading Blends out or Smooths out that anomaly it's going to read as a less than 45 foot building so the relief is really unperceivable in that regard um also likewise as you just heard through Daniel's testimony see relief for the number of stories four being a proposed here where three would be the maximum that's allowed importantly that's mitigated by the overall height complying with your 45 ft height requirement this building as all of these buildings as measured will be below that 45 ft height threshold and this pertains to the market rate townhouse units um based on what you saw and if you want Daniel you can flip over to the next slide which I believe would be 41 these are what the the buildings you see on the the top are what would be considered a four-story building under your ordinance but it reads nicely as a three-story building with that fourth portion being devoted to a living amenity as additional Loft space not additional units per se that would increase the population density or the intensity of use here it's going to provide nice balance nice proportionality to the building give it a nice top if you will um that pitched roof blends with the residential character ctor of the area and we think is certainly a a better zoning alternative than a fully conforming flat roof might provide for here so again importantly the top to bottom as you see here complies with your ordinance requirement of 45 ft so the overall massing before you could be a conforming plan with just three living levels and again we think this is the better design alternative um likewise relief for the solid to void ratio I'm simply going to fall back on Jeremy's testimony I think it's safe to say that the ratio here and the way the building uh is laid out meets the planning intent uh for good balance and proportionality in terms of that articulation of of solids and and transparency uh there is a practical difficulty given the utility elements on the inside as you just saw with all of that red uh in Jeremy's exhibit and then finally if you just want to flip back again Daniel in the lower left hand corner there you have that relief for the sign element which is going to be 10 feet where 15 feet would be the minimum required from ter hun on the left and then 7 feet where 15 ft would be the minimum required uh from the access road we think there just a better fit with the overall layout provides the planning benefit of safety and clear and safe identification of the site you heard about those off sets to the curb line so from a physical planning standpoint this will not really read as a non-conforming condition we think it maintains good adequate light air and open space and also does not interfere with any safe lines of sight or safe visibility so planning is supposed to be about effective balance and we think that sign positioning here balances safety uh again with light and air lower level relief related to the r sis is twofold number one for that non-loop system which I think is really superseded by the jurisdiction of the stewards of our water purveyor New Jersey American Water um whereby the the requirement there is for dead end system as opposed to a loop system so you have sort of competing jurisdictions here but again we think the njaw would be the more important one uh to hit for sure and then lastly the relief related to the parking Supply um as you saw through Jim's testimony 57 is what's proposed 45 is what's required under the letter of your ordinance but because the rsis triggers a higher number of 70 the applicant is asking the board to move on the Minimus exception we know in the rsis there's a component that says relief from rsis may be granted if it is based on the local conditions or local standards and and here we are spoton with that with conformance with the the local standards going all the way back to Justin's opening where he talked about availability of alternate modes of transportation um I think also provides a mitigating factor for for that relief as well taking all that practicality aside and just bringing it all back to the statute here we're going to look at the positives and weigh them against the negatives we're going to apply what we call the C2 balancing test that's the the newer standard under our law um previously we just had to show we could only show hardship here in New Jersey being Cutting Edge we do have this balancing factor which if I go outside of New Jersey uh that standard doesn't doesn't apply on the positive side the project is going to advance one or more purposes of the municipal land use law at njsa 40 col 55 d-2 um we're looking at um purpose the promotion of the general welfare because it delivers a permitted use and new housing stock that's in accordance with your housing element and your fair share plan additionally we see the advancement of purpose G to provide for a variety of uses in appropriate locations according to the needs of all New Jersey citizens because it does provide for that inclusionary affordable housing component for persons of low and moderate income uh which is an inherently beneficial use under our case law additionally we see the planning benefit and the advancement of purpose M under the land use law to provide for efficient use of land because it involves both Redevelopment of previously disturbed land and puts underutilized unconstrained land back into productive use additionally we see the advancement of purpose eye the promotion of a desirable visual environment because as you've seen it involves high quality highly attractive architecture and then a very robust comprehensive landscape package to help the built environment blend uh with the natural environment uh lastly I will point out you have excellent commentary here through um your environmental commission about energy conservation and this project will advance that purpose in the land use law that is a a purpose in zoning purpose J uh to provide for conservation of energy resources because it will utilize and energ efficient appliances and systems um and be energy compliant in accordance with your climate action plan and your Green Building environmental sustainability plan that all goes towards the positives and we think there's extreme weight here in the project as a whole which is what the law tells us to look at we counterbalance that with the impacts of the relief the applicant is seeking based on solid testimony on the record experts sworn under oath all relief can be granted without any substantially adverse impacts uh looking at them individually the building height relief is not for exaggerated Building height but rather due to a drop in the grade as I said the average uh the actual Building height complies it relates to only one building in the rear and we always look to the purposes of height control from a planning standpoint none of which will be violated here uh the added height will not contribute to additional population density or traffic the added height will not block Scenic views or create any negative shadow effects and the added height will not give this site an unfair height advantage over other sites and most importantly will not create an obtrusive imposing structure that goes towards C2 I think the board may also find an element of C1 hardship here given the fact that relief does relate to the land and that slope anomaly that presently exists with respect to the believe for the number of stories for all of the reasons given it's a better zoning alternative a much more pleasing aesthetic it's not going to be perceivable as an extra story because it involves or appears as a roof I talked about enhanced living space not more units the overall height complying and that pitched roof as I said is more compatible with the residential character of the area uh I talked about the townhouse solid to void ratio meeting the planning intent for an attractive build building the sign setback for clear and safe site identification and then those two di Minimus exceptions all said we think the weight here squarely lands on the positive side with minimal if any impacts on the negative side this project is going to deliver a permitted use in accordance uh with your underlying planning documents positives are sign significant the impacts are minimal most importantly the statutory criteria for all of the relief are met and with that said I think we can take this off the screen and approval is warranted um I do have a recent drone shot we took one today if the board wants to see it but I think the board well knows that um this is an a transforming area with new development this is an infill project that nicely blends with that very positive transformation that's taking place in the neighborhood and with that Madam chair I'll I'll pause thank you very much thank you Mr Donna uh anything else uh Mr tar before we oh we're ready for questions um Mr Cohen thank you um first of all before I uh uh share my questions with the architect uh just this isn't really that gerain to the board but since Daniel brought it up in his very opening comments I just want to clarify I was reviewing the original settlement agreement and I believe that this project is responsible for the pay you know for installing and paying the entire Access Road Daniel you mentioned it being shared between you and wi do you want to clarify what you meant by that or or just agree that this project is responsible for the the entire access road yeah there's there's a little wing at the end that falls on wind's property that actually makes the connection so that's why I mentioned it but what we Illustrated um like as you saw on the concept plan uh would be the responsibility of the developer to build um and pay for yes okay just wanted to be clear on that thanks um for uh for Mr Green the first question I have is um and and I'm gonna most my questions are going to be focused on this solid to void ratio uh issue with the with the walls facing the Connector Road um Mr Green do you have a sense for why the provision in the ordinance was created that governs the ratio of solids to voids on this wall in relationship to the ratio of solid and voids of the front facing the greens do you know why do you have a sense of why it was written that way um yeah I don't know the exact reasons behind it but have the sense that um the intent of that was that you didn't want a developer or Builder coming in and simply just miss so mistreating the ends of the buildings um especially the fact that that is a high visibility location um I know it's very easy for most developers when they turn the corner off of the front elevation to not pay a lot of attention to the design elements and the fenestration uh of those side because there you know a lot of times they're close between buildings and this case it's very visible um and it will be uh quite visible over the course of the first several years um of the project as the trees mature um so that's again when when we looked at this initially I think we were probably in this the 8% range of a ratio and we went back and forth um with uh Mr barski and uh some of the board professionals uh to enhance those areas and put in what we felt was the appropriate amount uh of glazing f ation and and uh that also did not make an impact on the livability and furnish ability of those units and it just happened that the ratio ended up you know a little less than half of the courtyard and I think one of the um very good um points that was brought up by one of my colleagues this week when we were preparing for this is that you know to make this uh work where we've sort of feel like we've maxed out the end of that building on the access road um we would have to actually go back and remove uh windows from the courtyard elevation to move that ratio down into the teens and we think that would had a severely adverse effect on the look and feel as as as Mr mcdna described um you know it's very the light nature those are your main spaces those are the spaces that you want to look down onto that Greenway so I think that the idea that there's a a you know there is a large variation between the two is is is very is acceptable in my mind because that's where you want the emphasis and I don't think there's any neglect uh being paid to that end of the building that's in a high visibility location okay so I'll just respond by saying it would have been peculiar for us to say that you have to have the same amount of openings on the side as you have on the front if we weren't trying to achieve something similar on the side as what's being achieved on the front okay I mean they the relationship was set up in the ordinance to try and say that the side that was facing the road should feel like a front and with that I I'd like to bring that image up again if somebody can share that page that shows that side elevation yeah if I could just add a recent experience that I had in in a job that we just entitled in Asbury Park a very same um provision in their their their City Planning guide uh came up and we had a very um similar challenge where we ended up being about half the ratio on the ends of the buildings that were in high visibility locations and you know we were successful again in arguing that those elevations were you know again I don't want to use the word neglect but they weren't uh they weren't they were paid attention to in an appropriate manner yeah I mean I I think this is a little distracting with the color on it um but yeah if we can okay so there in the lower leftand corner my question to you is does that strike you as an acceptable front elevation for a typical upscale Toll House Development it does you would you would be happy with having a front elevation of houses in one of your developments that looks like that um it's pretty typical that the end elevations have about a ratio of less than half to the front to the I didn't ask about an end elevation I asked does that strike you as an acceptable front elevation front facade because it doesn't strike me as as an acceptable fraud facade doesn't look anything like a front of a building and that's what we were trying to achieve on this access road and and the last question that I have for you is all of your arguments about where the windows can go and how many of them can go there are predicated on the layout of this end unit and the question is is there any technical reason why the end unit of a row of town homes can't be designed differently than the interior units of the the row of town homes um I mean we they are designed differently because we provided openings and other I I mean the floor plan is there any reason the floor plan can't be arranged differently than the internal units it's not something that we considered because we wanted the Flor plans is there any reason why it can't be done I we would have to investigate it all right I would propose that there's no reason that you can't do a different floor plan on the end unit which essentially eliminates all of your Arguments for where windows can and can't go because if you had a different floor plan you could have a much different elevation and obviously the most the simplest way to make that feel like a front would be to enter the end unit from the access road from the sidewalk on the access road I have to defer to the Planner on that I'm not sure whether we'd be able to to do that from because that I'll be happy to hear the planner comment on it if he wants to but sure basically that I think I've been I've been telegraphing my feelings which is you know what we were trying to accomplish with the ends of these buildings is that they not feel like an end and that as you Traverse this road that you would feel like these buildings were addressing you whether you lived in these town homes or you were just passing by them that you would not feel like you were on a street where all the houses were turning their side to the to the street and and I feel like you really have not succeeded in accomplishing that and I'll just be more blunt David we didn't want the ends of the buildings to look hideous the way they do now to put it in Lay person speak if I if I may jump in uh I don't understand Mr Green's testimony at all um you made no you made no effort to design the interior so you could meet the salads and voice void ratio and then you argue you can't make the silent and voids ratio because of the Interior it's clearly a self-created hardship y so um I am glad that we started with that line of questioning because it was very big issue for me too and I'm sure that others um you know Drew out the the key points better better than I would have since I'm not uh an architect or a design professional but it's a big deal um Mr Cohen did you have other questions uh no that that was basically it okay um Miss saaks council president saaks and then uh Mr odonnell yeah um first I just wanted to correct a few um assertions that were made along the way um I I'm not sure who it was that characterized um the original request or the original application um uh as within the frame of a a transitional buffer so just to be clear the applicant sued the municipality um to challenge the Redevelopment designation of the thanet site across the way in order to be included in the town's settlement um the town because it did not want its settlement to be prolonged indefinitely agreed to negotiate with the applicant which the town did the applicants initi IAL request was for a substantially larger substantially larger amount of density the town spent a great deal of time negotiating with the barskis uh to bring the density down to what it is and the town um was quite specific in its um requests and what it wanted to see on the site um whether or not this this site plan is substantially consistent with the original site plan it it probably meets the letter but not the spirit of what the town envisioned and this is an entirely different um visual than what was discussed in the um discussions between the town and the applicant and that was between Mr barski and and and the town um subsequently I I guess uh the barskis have uh uh agreed to some sort of arrangement with Toll Brothers um and this is a very different aesthetic than what was presented to the town it is the same number of units and in the you know approximately the same site plan but the aesthetic is very different um and and in some ways strikingly so as as with the end units um I um I I the the applicant referenced the situation with some of the other um developments nearby and the town also spent a great deal of time discussing the applications with the other um with with the other projects in in the shopping center area and those applicants went to Great Lengths to try to accommodate what the town was interested in seeing um I don't believe we we have heard at all from Toll Brothers we just heard through the grap Vine that they had uh become I guess some sort of a contract purchaser or or or um involved with this um I don't think there has been any time spent by Toll Brothers to try to understand what the town is doing in this area um and so it's it's not really um I think helpful or appropriate to contrast or compare the situation with um the very helpful and robust discussions that have taken place between the town and the other um applicants and and and and projects that are going on in this site uh so I I just wanted to say that I'm I'm I'm very troubled with how we find ourselves at at where we are tonight um and and um I I think also the the front affordable units look much cheaper and more generic um than what was originally presented um I I have questions about the overall I realized that the site plan is different than the architectural aesthetic but I this is a this is a different architect and a totally different um aesthetic than than what was originally presented in the discussions with the town whether as I said it meets the letter of of um what was agreed upon um obviously it doesn't because you're requesting three variances and I have to say personally I I'm not inclined to Grant those variances given where how we've gotten to where we are now which doesn't Inspire trust um but uh I will say Mr mcdono that you're one of the most articulate planners we've had before this board and you slightly moved the needle in in in my thinking that where than where I started but um where I land is and and I agree with a lot of what you've said but um I do feel before we would before I personally could um feel comfortable with supporting relief on those variances there would have to be more discussion between the architect and whoever it is barsky Toll Brothers whoever it is that's going to end up owning this um discussion with the town's Professionals in in coming up with something that um that I think is more consistent with the original discussions thank you council president sex um Mr odonnell and then Mr Macwan thank you madam chair I have questions about the access road um that access road I believe I heard before is going to be a public throughway is that correct sort of sort of kind of okay what what it well what is the answer to that I believe that there there were extensive conversations about that it is going to function as a public road you know it's going to be maintained by the municipality it's in our easement um I it's been a while since we talked about it so I can't reflect intelligently on the nuances of why it might not technically be a public road but it's goingon to be a public road um in all but name if if it's not a public road okay and there are two access points I believe into the shopping center along that road one down by the the far end uh town home and one up by the the tune homes according to the maps there there's just one one access down at the end the other access goes into the adjacent wind development it goes into wind okay and then I know this isn't in your purview but is there an access from wind using that road into the shopping center they would have access with this road connecting to the shopping center my my point is that this is this road is going to be used by people trying to avoid the traffic lights at turun and Harrison and then at Valley in Harrison and they're going to be cutting through there all the time are there any traffic calming measures uh being proposed I the right person to go ahead M maybe I can just chime in and say I believe there is a um a raised area for a crosswalk as part of the road design for the wind development that was approved but maybe Mr Weissman has additional um comments on that perhaps I'm not sure and before you start uh Dan I I also I'm really interested in that road because that um not only of the vehicular traffic but I think it car a lot of pedestrian and bike traffic as well because all those folks who live up uh um thanet um and wanting to go to the uh shopping center without driving are going to be coming down there you know probably yeah so I would like to I'd like to talk about the that road and um and its various uh multimodal features Louise you know that on the Wind side there's a a multi-use spike and pedestrian path that the town is paying oh yeah yeah yeah that's right I do remember that yeah thank you which is all the more reason all those people who are going to be looking at those sides of the building why they should yes yeah okay thanks for that and I assume there's a there's a um sidewalk also on the side where these dwellings we're looking at are as well right there will be yes on both sides okay all right um sorry go ahead Mr Weisman you were gonna sure uh I don't recall off the top of my head if there is a traffic calming measure in this access roadway uh I do know that the intersection at um it'll essentially become a combined intersection a combined tabletop um with thanet circle uh which is which was thanet Road renamed now thanet Circle um and this access roadway on tur hu road so that'll be one raised uh tabletop intersection for traffic calming measures um but the design and layout of the access roadway uh was reviewed and reproved under the adjacent Alice development site all right thank you I just see potential issues with that becoming basically I believe another main entrance into the the shopping center uh people making left turns trying to get into the shopping center from that uh in that area coming coming toward heading towards Harrison Street and not wanting to stop at the light and making a left turn into there and also uh people coming across from fet with cars or with bicycles cutting straight across I just think that's a you know needs to be considered I do too and and I don't know whether or not we're in a position to do this tonight um and we'll take a break pretty soon here um but I think it would be um a good idea to look at the various Road improvements that are um being made on tune in the vicinity they were referenced in um in a couple of the memos I think and it would just be good to understand you know what it's supposed to look like when all when all of the improvements have been made and how the um traffic turning movements will work and and all of that I understand the uh intersection is still under design um so I don't think the design of that is finalized at this point oh I'm sorry I thought that it had been um Mr Macwan and Mr Le go and then once we once their questions are asked and answered we can continue with questioning but I want to take a break after Mr Lesco has a chance to ask questions go ahead Elvin just a few questions about the affordable units one they are all they're going to be rental units I assume um second open why don't we have Mr Bary just respond to that let's Mr Green do that or or somebody from Mr Green yeah we we have not decided whether they're going to be rental or for sale units oh okay I actually thought I heard somebody say early on that they were going to be for sale units unlike uh the affordable dwelling in I I had two not tonight but I but I had heard some things that that that was going to be the case too but not tonight I just heard the town homes said were going to be Market units but not necessarily that was what was represented to the town that they would be um for sale but I don't think that was you know in writing as as it the the market units the market units under this proposal will be for sale specifically to the affordable unit um that wasn't part of the settlement agreement whether they are for rent or for sale but probably Toll Brothers may be interested in either route and haven't committed yet and we don't know what the feeling come yeah Daniel if I may I get indications from my operations team that they will be for sale they will be for sale that's correct okay is that viable well generally at all as as as for sale units affordable units they rarely get um bought and then they wind up being rental units well yeah and if I can add to that you know when you at least two of those units are going have to be very low income units yeah and if that's the case the the the I don't believe that the income can support what I call homeown ship so that was the other that was one of the reason for me asking the other thing the other question is um for the record what are the size of these of the um of the affordable units in both the buildings uh the squar footage that's a second question the third question is um when this is all built is this all going to be managed by the residents there essentially going to be a a homeowners association if that is the case is that also going to include well we don't know whether they're going to be rental or or or well if they're going to be home ownership units that's fine are they going to be in included and you know have you thought about that what what that's going to mean so those are my questions if anybody cares to answer them yeah I can take on the the second question about square footage they range in square footage from in one building from 900 if I'm reading this correctly 973 Square fet to about a little over 1300 square feet in the second building they range from about 827 Square F feet to a little over 1300 sare feet as well again a variety of one two and three bedroom units and the Homeowner Association question I can't answer that that's not my area of expertise I would have to take that to my operations team and I'm just going to jump in sorry Justin it's very relevant because I know another thing that was part of our negotiated agreement was that the uh whoever is the owner would maintain the buffer and we had um you know negotiated the maximum possible vegetated buffer and part of the agreement is that the homeowners assoc or what whoever it is that owns this property will maintain that buffer in perpetuity um and so to Alvin's Point who is going to be M who would be maintaining that buffer so is that that's a question to uh research and bring back to the board it's it sounds that way if the units are to be sold then characteristically there would be an HOA but I can jump in um and again apologize if I'm reading off my screen here um so yes they would be part of the homeowners association uh along with the market rate units there would be an overall maintenance uh program maintained by the HOA um and uh in our experience and this is a great point that was brought to my attention we have not had any uh issues um selling um even low uh affordable income units in fact we integrate them into many of our market rate developments most recently we're doing it um in in West Windsor Township where we actually have stacked units integrated with the town home units okay um Mr leco yes thank you madam chair and this wasn't going to be my comment but um it seems like it it might make sense if we bring in whoever from toll is answering these to to testify would that be possible I guess that's a question Mr Green or Mr barski and it would helpful to know what the arrangement is exactly yeah what arrangement specifically who is who between you and Toll Brothers Arby homes is under contract with Toll Brothers part of our Arrangement is that RB homes bring a a fully approved plan based on the zoning and concept plan that was approved back a couple years ago you know I know there's been a lot of discussion and and I've had discussions with some of the board members um specifically about certain items i' just like to clarify a couple things the affordable units the two the six affordable units that are designed to look like two single family homes were very specifically designed to the detail plus floor plans as part of the settlement agreement they were designed uh by a local architect who has a lot of experience uh designing affordable units that's mostly what he does we followed exactly what was on the concept plan regarding the town home units we never proposed any elevations um and at the time we did agree to have the town house facade fenestrations equal the front to the side to be the same proportion however as we were designing them and even prior to toll jumping in it was not possible without eliminating a lot of voids in the front there was no way to make the match and personally from our side we didn't think it was the intent from the uh from the governing body um to have the fronts look worse so just so that they can match the side again they're Town Homes they're 23 they're 24 ft wide you need room for stairwells you need room for kitchen cabinets you need room for closets um you need room for bathrooms and unfortunately you can't put that stuff in the center of the unit I'm sure you guys understand that you need corridors you need ways to access and get around um uh I did ask toll at some point to make revisions because they didn't look the way that you see them now uh and told did add some features they added some windows but there was no way that we could make the front match the side penetrations it's just not possible whether it was toll or whether I designed them myself with my father Roman it's not possible to do in a 23 foot wide town home um with that said you know tol proposed some aesthetic changes and I asked my engineer Jim to um do more Street facing trees and more landscape buffering around those side elevations so that there would be some buffer to that I asked toll to to make as many improvements as they could and that's what they came back with that's how we ended up here with the with the townhouse side fenestrations I also like to add that when we were in settlement there was a lot of excitement about these units being for sale the town has yes a lot of units going on but they're all for rent these people aren't going to be a part of our community they're they have no real interest in any significant contribution here these are going to be actual Market units that the town needs Market units people can buy and I'm a local developer I know they're missing and the affordable units yeah they're all for rent but it would be nice to provide some opportunities for sale and according to Toll Brothers they've been able to do that in West Windsor so I I don't see that as a significant issue um I just want to confirm that that that's accurate we the town was pleased that these are going to be for sale as opposed to the rest of our settlement units which are all rentals and we also did um discussed that these would be uh in some way administered by and I I believe our affordable housing attorney felt that the towns we do already have a program with for sale units and and it was envisioned although not formally agreed upon that the the town would be a participant in the uh affordable for sale units and I think we did to be fair um see that that was a a positive um because we like to promote home ownership um at a at a you know an affordable price point where possible so even though we hadn't worked out the details the town did see that as as something that we mutually wanted to to strive for and that would would benefit us and and the the residents in those units so so when we when we came together with tol and you know tol's business model is to build and sell it's not Avalon Bay to hold hundreds and hundreds of rental units with I don't want to call people transient but people that go in and out we thought this was a good fit the site is really constrain that I mean we came to a settlement agreement four years ago we're here now in front of you because it was such a difficulty to even um uh um get to this point we have a couple variances and it seems like the big one is the facade fenestration like I said I mean we gave it we I mean we gave it an effort it's not like we totally neglected it we had discussions with tol and we told toll and toll understands the intent of that was to make those side units appealing but there's only a certain amount of things you can do to make it appealing and still have regular amenities inside a 23- foot wide town home like closets like kitchen cabinets and we struggled with that for a while and that's part of the reason that this application was held up for a while this is what we landed on you know even if we're to revisit it I mean we can I can pull up the slide again I can maybe add in another window so that there's no wall space in the family room but I'm not I'm not quite certain how else to you know reach the intent of the of the planning board and I'm happy to hear some productive feedback so that we can get over that hump if that's like the real uh um the real critical element in getting this moving forward besides the affordable units that we're providing which obviously is a great benefit and I think the fact that they're for sale is a better benefit than rental units I mean the access road is a critical part of of the whole plan of this whole area you have hundreds of units at Avalon Bay you have hundreds of more at win and without the access road it's going to create a nightmare on the corner of tun Harrison at least I thought that that was a important aspect of this application and part of our settlement was we agreed to build at our own cost that road and that's not a small or insignificant cost and um again going to what uh John McDonna testified to our planner that we think that the the positive items and all the criterias of this application outweigh all the negatives um I mean I'm happy to discuss further and and we can talk about it and as you guys know uh Roman my father and I we're locals here and we want to see this development look nice I mean even the courtyards we expanded the courtyards from 60 to 75 feet to have nice green infrastructure in between I know everyone's getting bogged down on the fenestrations but there's a lot of nice things about this job as well um thanks Mr barski um Mr Lesco and then uh before we go back to you David I think it would be good to take a to take a break uh Justin yes uh thank you madam chair I just wanted to respond to Owen's questions before about traffic calming uh the site plan does show one raised CR crosswalk uh which you know effectively serves as a a big bump not a speed bump but but a big bump um and there are also parallel park uh parking spaces on the east side of it um and Studies have proven that parallel parking spaces actually slow down cars uh and prevent uh accident crashes excuse me um Street trees too serious injury Street trees as well I haven't had a chance to check the the Alice application to see if there's shet trees on that other side um but I think generally speaking this access road is not built to be able to go 50 or or or 40 and and cut through that that way to the shopping center um but it certainly would be something that if you're coming from Witherspoon Street and you're going to Ace Hardware uh you might take this road if you're going to uh Lily pies you might take the the uh Valley entrance um and kind of similar to what Daniel had said I think the inclusion of the road and the ability for people to use it um is more of a benefit than than necessarily a concern uh with the new tenants coming thanit Circle uh wind development and and elsewhere and I'm sorry David but and Louisa just to answer your question actually it was the town that pushed for the cut through um to go through to the shopping center because in our discussions with Edens a big issue with the economic viability with the with the shopping center has been their inability to activate the back space that has been a a major theme of our discussion and it the feeling was that this road would a help to activate and economically you know be an economically productive factor with with that the back portion um but also um ultimately it's our hope that we will have a means of egis out the back of the thanet site but in the meantime all of the traffic is basically being backed up by that light and the Hope was that this would be a bit of a um capillary thank you yeah so yeah I'm all for it just to be fair Telegraph there are a lot of things I'm not happy about this application but I will just that the town spent more time on this road than on all of the other sites combined and we do believe that the road is a benefit and I you know I I know there it's the payment arrangement or the between win and and and whoever it is barsky to Brothers whatever that's that's a that's a uh something that I think should be nailed down before we reach any final conclusions on this but I I just to be fair the town really pushed for that road and for the Cutthroat throat cut through not cut through cut through and David that's a that's a Freudian slip I've never heard one Mia and also just if I remember correctly the end the issue is that most of the road will be public but it's hard to Define there's a a portion where the road meets the shopping center and that's where the definition of what the road is or isn't gets complicated and that's yeah and that's a really important connection point you know for yeah well something else to explore to the extent that we can um so it's uh 919 right now let's um take a break and convene at uh uh 9:29 or 9:30 um but uh but please be punctual on when you come back so that we can um hit the ground running okay thanks just say I'm not I'm not looking for an equal amount of glazing on the West Side facing the Connector Road but what I am looking for is a is a front uh an elevation that looks like a front of the building so I think that you know my strong feeling is they do need to go back to the drawing board they need to redesign those units I think you can move move the closets off of the West Wall without any difficulty you may be able to move the ba the the bathrooms off of the West Wall without much difficulty by reconfiguring the stairs a little you can easily get the entry in um to the ground floor the the the main entry uh on the West Wall just by tweaking the floor plan and uh I think that's what needs to happen and then we'll see what it looks like and maybe it won't be uh I forget what the percentage was you know may not be 24% voids the way it is uh facing the green but it it'll be more like 16 or 18% and it will and even if it's only 12% it's going to look a lot better if that's a front and and entry side of the building so that's my that's my guidance uh to how to get to to yes on the project Madame chair I I I don't want to be in the stand in the way of anybody else speaking but we did take a moment to during the break this was very helpful David and I thank you um we are going to redesign the ends and we're going to take the guidance that we've just heard and any more that we get we're very hopeful that for the rest of the evening we might touch on any of the other topics that uh are of concern to the board so that when we come back and we clearly should come back another night we'll have answered as many of the questions as we can and not have to spend too much of the time the next time with new matters that we weren't prepared to speak to so if we could proceed on that basis we' we'd appreciate that very much okay um does that work for you David yes um other questions from board members Miss capazo yeah we we really didn't talk about storm water and um I do feel like the Neighbors on Grover are going to be especially concerned about Protections in place so that storm water doesn't affect their properties and you know we didn't hear from Joe scoan and you know so I just think maybe when they come back uh we'd also be covering that and you know spending a certain amount of time we could give you a quick uh study on that we work very hard to push the water toward the shopping center and Jim could bring up the slide that shows you that if you'd like to see it sure yes Daniel you're going to bring the slides up Dan are you talking to Mr Weissman no Dan barsky with the slides oh okay right sorry go ahead uh go to the utility plan down one more there so here for our storm water infrastructure you can see that um we're conveying uh the property is basically split into the pretty much down the middle and half of the site flows towards tarun Road and the rear half flows towards um Grover Park and all of those um drainage flow patterns will be maintained you can see in red our underground storm water pipe that connects the um rain Garden bio retention areas in the courtyards as well as the perious pavement areas um and conveys all of that water to the rear uh the way that it flows today and additionally um we do have swells on the grading plan which prevents any water from migrating from our site onto the Neighbors on Grover so there's a Swale that uh conveys water from from left to right we do have a grading plan um Dan in the in the slide deck if you want to scroll all the way down to that so here's here's our grading plan and you can see further detail of the Contour so if you look at the top of the page this is the front of the site with ter hun Road located on the left you can see that our grading um is a appropriate such that water would be conveyed left to right along that property line within that side yard um setback and not directly onto adjacent Property Owners um and if you scroll to the next slide Daniel you can see see here on the leftand side this at the top of the screen on The leftand View we also have a Swale that conveys water um down into the the rear area of the detention B of the bio retention area um so we went through Great Lengths we have six green infrastructure bio retention systems uh three are bio retention and three pervious pavement um to reduce the amount of the flows which are the reductions are substantial and they far outweigh uh the required reductions from a flow standpoint um as required by the by the regulations and and we did go through this in great detail with Mr scopan who did prepare a letter just reviewing our plan um and indicated that we met the the municipal requirements and certainly as um a condition of the approval as requested will provide a detailed operation and maintenance manual um for the various systems here on the property Mr meller the these are supplemental slides Mark number 45 and 46 they're not among the 41 that we showed before the break okay yeah and and just to add to this in more layman's terms uh Jim Kamala and I along with the help of Dan Weissman and scopion we spent a lot of time and care with the storm water um I I know that's just a very general overview but we we really put a lot of work into the stor water to make sure that it works yeah I just if I may I'm sorry go ahead yes Mr SC and go right ahead yeah I just want to add um yes the um the proposed storm water meets the Township's storm water uh uh Control Ordinance just want to correct one thing that Jim said and it's it's not a det it's just a detail but just to make sure the record's clear the site's about two a little less than two and a half acres about a quarter of the site drains to the Northwest out to Terhune Road and about three4 of the site now drains to the southeast um towards the uh the baseball field I think Jim mentioned about half and half I just want to get that clear what's important to note though is that when the under proposed conditions that split remains just about the same we're going to send this just just at about 25% of the site now and later will drain to tune and about three qus of the site will drain now and later out to the baseball field just just to get the record straight thanks yeah thank you um does that address your question Julie uh yes thank you thank you Mr Cohen yeah just to follow follow up on what Joe was just saying I guess what I'd like to understand I realize that there are um rainwater storage you know facilities there green infrastructure and so forth on that three qus of the site that drains towards Grover Park I don't remember seeing green infrastructure on the side facing towards tune so right somebody could talk about that quarter of the site that drains towards tun are is there any green infrastructure or is that really just going into the streets you know St Dan sure Dan can you pull up that raing plan slide again and we can show David that slide 46 or 45 uh the previous slide so you can see we have um perious pavement within the parking area that's our our green infrastructure component okay and then that that that cleans and retains and then discharges to the storm water system in Turan Road and that's that's receiving from the building as well as from the pavement or just from the pavement both okay yes thank you Claudia Wilson Anderson uh you're on mute thank you I I have several questions one relates since this is a multif family project and it's not single family like edel Farms is when you have an HOA how does management and maintenance relate to the tenants that are there with they own or they rent how is that taken care of you're not going to have a local manager on site um and how is it handled and how does it impact the neighbors that are on Grover as it relates to the fence and fence management garbage noise lights Etc I think this is one of those categories that we've heard now from several of you that you'd like details on how the h way would operate and we'll bring that back the next time with an expert from with a a witness from toll to explain how they do it and I'm specifically also concerned about the fence I'm assuming this is a white vinyl fence that tends to get moldy and and you've got the houses on Grover who have some tree coverage it looks like between their houses and the fence but the landscaping that's being provided on your landscape plan is inside of the fence so what the outside of the fence will look like and how that would be maintained on the second questions I've heard nothing about ADA is there any um concept here that's either required by law or that is a uh a nod to any kind of ADA or accessibility uh on sidewalks or any of the apartments Mr Green did I see you raise your hand there yes uh um I can I can answer that the the town homes are not accessible they're they're they don't have elevators and required to be accessible the lower level um single story units within the uh the affordable units are accessible and there is an accessible parking space provided um in the area behind those units of the six units are they all accessible or some are some are okay again they don't have elevator service of the multi-story units only the ground floor level of the multi-story unit or if it's a single story unit would need to be required to be accessible under the core regulations under the state law and the last thing is I would like to see at some point if we get to that point a restriction on the use of those two rooms the one that's on the top floor The Loft area and the one that's on on the ground floor that those would be very clearly and specifically stated to not be used as bedrooms that's something we could clearly do in our deed restrictions and and we do that very on a very customary basis thank you thank you uh Mr leco thank you madam chair uh I'm interested in more information about the parking behind the two Kaa affordable buildings we've now heard there's going to be one Ada space space uh there's going to be two EV spaces but overall there's nine spaces to serve those six units uh will they be reserved for those specific units what's to prevent you know will anyone be able to use the EV space um e the two EV spaces and what's to prevent you know someone in the town home from having friends come over and they use those spaces and a person that comes home can't use the space behind their home yeah so um all nine of those spaces are reserved use for those affordable units and likely the way to indicate that is with a sign you know probably during compliance we can uh indicate a sign that uh labels the spaces and that indicates that that's for those spaces only that's not for guest or guest parking or charging excellent thanks well how would that be enforced would there be um some kind of permit that's issued for the U affordable units that they could place on on that car indicating that um you they're entitled to use those spaces will spaces be uh um assigned to the affordable units space number one goes to unit BL blah blah I think we'll bring that back Jerry I mean it's all good the comment from Steph was how do we assure that the nine are available only to the affordables but we'll take it a next step and indicate how they're going to be allocated that's great thanks thanks unless Jeremy you've got a comment now or we could bring it back next time uh not on that but I would like to double back on M Anderson's question four of the six uh units are accessible at um on the first floor at the first floor level thank you um Claudia did you have a follow-up question your hand is up no okay uh council president sax just getting back to the magnolia trees um so originally we were very pleased with the layout because it allowed enough room for the Magnolias to continue and Thrive so I'm concerned about uh the comment that I heard that they were going to be replanted that is definitely not consistent with our original discussions those are large mature trees I'm I'm I'm rather certain they wouldn't survive replanting so I want to try to understand what has changed such that you think that now they do need to be replanted it was one thing that we were very excited about that the the layout enabled them to continue um so I wanted to hear about that um and um well yeah that that's one question well I I think we we recall that there was a sensitivity to those two trees um the buildings are located in accordance with the setbacks that were established as part of the original plan and the actual locations of those trees are right at the front portion of the two um affordable buildings so for the buildings to be located in that location the trees can't continue to survive in that location so in order to be sensitive to that we thought the next best alternative alternative was to relocate them to an appropriate place keep one in the front yard between the two buildings right in that General vicinity um and then the second one we had in front of building number one in the front yard but um there is a conflict there and even to stay outside of the drip line of those trees if they were to be maintained it would push significantly into those front affordable buildings um and and as you can see on the site we're constrained with our building area our parking area um Etc as you go back into the site so so again on this issue D breli is here and and Jim and then for that matter John MCD we've got three landscape capable folks uh if we could come back with a testimony about their ability to relocate those two trees and assure their continued Vitality we we'd like to bring that information back to the board okay and also because I'm quite sure I I know that that originally the representation was that they could remain in place so if you could just go back and check what might have changed such that now you feel they can't remain in place or maybe someone misunderstood early on and thought that they could but you know I I just wanted to suggest a theory on that which I I think it was Jim who mentioned in increase in the width of the green spaces from 60 feet to 75 feet and I wonder if that's sort of uh push the the front buildings closer to turun as we can take a look at that David but I do think that we're consistent with the front yard setbacks that were established originally so let's let let's just look into that but I don't think we change the front very much from the original concept but like I say we we know there's a sensitivity to it so then when we saw that there was a conflict we we tried to do the next best thing and and keep it in the same area and work to relocate them so you know we can come back with with a plan for that and give you a little bit more clarity since it isn't we understand that it is important and they're also not being maintained optimally at present it it doesn't seem like there's a great deal of care being given to them so we'd appreciate if you could tend to that as well um other questions from board members I have a few but I don't want to jump ahead of anybody okay I'm not seeing any other hands go up um I will express my opinion that I really hope at the end of the day we have something other than a white plastic fence um between this project and the neighbors um I think uh Cedar would be a way better option um I have a concern and this is on on slide 20 is a one place to look at this um about the the air the space between the two uh buildings that front on tune that have the affordable dwellings in them between there's supposed to be a green space patio area to accommodate bikes and benches and it looks like could you bring up slide 20 it looks way too small to to serve the purpose that is um that ostensibly it's designed to serve um and so I wanted to hear see the where the thing goes to Greens space Patio Bike Rack and bench um because the people who are in the in those affordable units you know where do they this this relates to that question where do they go to be outdoors you know I mean where is their this this you have these wonderful Courtyard spaces between the town homes but I don't see anything um in any way comparable to that that the folks in the affordable dwellings um have access to so I'm curious about how you envision the front yard I think there was um I think I I heard that there was a retaining wall in the front yard um so I'm not sure you know whether there's like a drop off well I think of those houses you could just speak to those um Green Space issues and the access that people who live in those dwellings have I would appreciate it sure the front the front yard does slope down towards the street uh the retaining wall That's present is near the sign um near the corner and parallel to the sidewalk but behind the sidewalk so that was that reference um and you know based on the topography the the building sit a little bit higher so we provided this vegetate this buffering um in between the two buildings to screen the Terhune Frontage from um the area in between the buildings and the parking area to create some privacy there I think Daniel if you scroll down to the additional sides to the actual site plan sheet um which everybody has in their packet you'll see some more details of that space um and and here the Landscaping is not located on there but you can see that we we sort of expanded the the hardscaping in and around that area where the tree is we have a shade tree um there you go in between we also incorporated number 26 was a bench for a seating area and then the area to the left which is outside of that patio area would be an open grass area with some shrubs and we have a few balled um lights to light the area in the evening so that if you know people want to go out that it's properly lit Etc so um so what's the overall square footage of what you consider to be that that sort of community public space in between the buildings there just give me one second here it would be about 5 to 600 square feet that that whole area there um the open space you can see it's 20 ft wide and then it extends you know longer laterally so 5 to 600 square ft 5 or 30 feet yeah and what's behind we tried to we tried to you know with the area that we have available again the front yard slopes down and also from the street from a viewscape standpoint we did want to provide some screening in the gap between the buildings to the pedestrian and parking area that's at the rear of the buildings the nine parking stalls so that does limit that sort of creat some privacy and does limit access to the front yard which is sloping as it is um but you know it's an it's an efficient space but we tried to add those little elements there um to make it somewhat usable even though it is you know on on The Limited side certainly it doesn't compare to the the open space that you know was requested um of the applicant in between the town home units uhhuh Mr uh Mueller were you starting to say something just what's that um rectangular area behind the bench it's a tree well for a shade tree I see okay thank you to shade the area okay and do you anticipate having any now I recognize there's a um a a Park area playground area across the street across the um New Street uh from these dwellings so I assume these um homeowners would have access to that do you anticipate any um you know allowing uh I wouldn't think the that you're providing it but allowing any anything like you know little picnic tables or something like that on the in the area between um these buildings and the houses on Grover uh in the sidey you mean yes in the side yard you zoom out uh Daniel barsky zoom out a little bit there is some opportunity um at the end of the parking area within that sidey that's not landscape or over encumbered um where where the exit is to that sidewalk that goes around the side of the building so there is some open space um as well in that area um there is there a Swale there too is that where the Swale is uh as the Swale gets more concentrated as you go to the left where the 35 foot Dimension is um but I still think at the end of the parking area there is there is some open area that potentially could be used um there is a beautiful park right across the street too yes I know I did I did yeah well and there's also Grover Park I mean there are there are Park opportunities I know I just um yeah uh Mr Green and then um uh Miss Wilson Anderson again yeah thank you I just wanted to piggyback on on Jim's testimony um if Daniel if you could go to slide 30 and then 32 I did want to indicate that we actually um the two ground floor units uh slides 30 and 32 they're the architectural slides Daniel give me yeah give me one second no problem yeah I think you had to go a presentation mode um so if you click on SL 30 um you can see that at the fronts of the building uh down like on the first floor plan that unit to the oh get some drama me sorry sorry sorry um the unit uh to the left most unit there actually does have a covered porch off of the um the living space and the and the um the the unit adjacent to that first FL unit has a large covered porch off to the front there wasn't an opportunity to provide one for the multistory unit that's an orange simply because that if you can go back Daniel because that enters at the back corner there they do have a porch but it's you know enough to maybe put a chair on um and then if you go to the other um slide of slide 32 very much the same um you have front porches off of the yellow unit and off of the green unit and you have a small back porch so there are opportunities for for um you know for privacy and and being able to be outdoors that doesn't um you know that doesn't um cause you to have to go you over to the green space or stuff so I thought that was very important to point out because there is indoor outdoor engagement on a bunch of different levels for the affordables thank you thank you for pointing that out I had not noticed it Claudia could you describe logistically how garbage and recycling pickup would work on uh both the front affordable housing units and then the back units where the driveway areas don't seem to have the capability for a truck garbage truck turnaround I'll defer to to Jim on that uh he knows more about the vehicular access of the site I did point out where those he's aware of where the spaces are located and allocated for for for the trash pickup Daniel can you can you just highlight on the um affordable residences where the enclosed track rooms are mhm so there're there are enclosed rooms that you would enter with a door so we don't have any outdoor um trash enclosures you know exterior to the building for the affordables and if you go back to the site plan Daniel the overall site plan sheet um a trash uh vehicle would pull in and then basically offload the containers from those rooms directly um and you know perhaps it would be a smaller vehicle or in the in the instance of a larger vehicle then they can pull in um to the site pull forward and then back out or um if they needed to to back in they'd have the radius to do that originally with this plan when we started coordinating with the town we had um for the town homes dumpsters out a single outdoor dumpster at the end of each driveway can you highlight that Daniel in the access driveways for the town homes um and the preference was because of the proximity um to the residences on Grover to have the individual trash can stored in in the garage which is immediate to that lo location and then just placed immediately outside the garage door on the morning of of trash pickup so um we worked with the alignment uh the width of these these trash alleys were were coordinated and given to us by Dean Stockton uh originally when uh the plan was being laid out where we needed to provide certain uh widths between the buildings for accesses and we've Incorporated that um just the way it was it was asked of us and to pull the track inside of all of the buildings um from a storage standpoint in a facility like this are these Property Owners or T I guess the property owners specifically first are they Contracting directly with the Sanitation Company uh is this something that's Town that's the town sanitation that brings then smaller trucks in and is that feasible I think that's a question for Jeremy I um let's not speculate let's bring it back yeah I think we need to research that I don't know whether it would be municipal or private treshold uh I see Victor anoc hand up but I think Mr Weissman is activated his camera specifically to maybe address this question uh it yes thank you madam chair it is not the uh responsibility of the municipality um because of the number of dwelling units on the site um this would have to be handled by a private hauler good to know thank you did that address your question Miss uh Claudia logistically I don't understand it but somebody's GNA have to figure out how to get garbage picked up there um it just it looks narrow um given the size of the garbage truck that comes by here I don't know that they could make it through there without doing some damage um on their way in or out but um logistic assuming that works is there any issue with the fire trucks or is that question already been addressed in Prior design reviews with getting a fire truck out of there well like I said previously um Deanna stocked in review layout and and coordinated with and and Jim at that time Joe Novak help with the design and the widths of the Alleyways to make sure a firetruck can get in and since that time the acting emergency service coordinator Michael y also uh we've had some calls with him to say that yes he can get a fire truck in and he can Ser this service this building so we did take some extra care to make sure that was the case uh thank you let's hear from Mr anos about this too yeah yeah I did I did have uh a couple of comments about the uh trash collection and uh the circulation within the driveways um I think the question that was asked was one of the comments I had made with regards to how uh the gabage collection will will be collected uh for both the affordable uh buildings and the town houses um the template that is shown it's really the it's really showing the truck going in into the parking into the driveways it doesn't show out how they turn around in there that was what we were hoping to see and the other comment I have is um the the entrance the driveway to the excuse me to the affordable uh units there is a a trash dum at the corner at the North what you call it the northeast corner right there um and there is one towards the end so my I I guess I'm I'm wondering the one at the front it's very close to the access road I don't know if there's any uh kind of shiing or screening it just looks uh it's it's almost like treating this as a backyard instead of the front is the it's interior to the building it's not an exterior it's a room within the building so it has building around it it's not it's not an exterior dumpster it's a trash room that's fully enclosed by the building structure so it appropriately screens it from outdoor view okay it doesn't look that way on the plan um but it's within the green you see on this slide at the end of the building it's it's within the green footprint there okay so now architect designed that you know Incorporated integrated it into the building okay so now when the when the uh garbage truck or the pickup truck whatever the you decide that will be doing the collection when they get there they will have to go inside the building to roll out the garbage cans yes that's correct and it'll be a private hauler so the the HOA can coordinate the details with their private hauler in terms of you know the mechanism and the operation of of how they do that under that contract yeah and vior you had in your report mentioned you had a concern about it would when the garbage people come they will block traffic for while they're picking up the garbage can you elaborate a little bit on that well um initially I thought this was uh there was an access to uh the driveway to this uh dumpster so if if if the drive the trucks that come to pick up the garbage they will have to park right at that stop stop uh bar to be able to assess that and um my concern is this new access road is going to generate a lot of of pedestrian traffic in the morning bikes people who are exercising running in the morning and all that um I I wasn't sure how a typical garbage truck would do this but now it's a pickup um it will still be it will still be some kind of nuisance but um I don't know it's you might just have to schedule uh pickups at uh more appropriate time yeah I think that probably might be the way to do it but it it would interfere with pedestrian and B bicycle movement at that point Daniel can you zoom in on on that parking lot the nine vehicle parking lot just a little bit more see we do have this extended area all the way at the end next to that the trash and recycling room of that one unit right that does provide an opportunity for a trash vehicle to temporarily stage if they're going to park and offload their cans in into the into the the truck that they're using if it's a smaller truck and likewise they could access that um you know the it's nine parking stalls away from the other room so we do have an at least an outdoor area that's at the terminal end where they can temporarily park for the few minutes that they're there yeah the other the other concern I had um and this is with regards to parking um the the time Halls the time homes uh the garages don't have any Drive aisles to it but typically uh you have uh people using some of those private drive hours to their garages as a shorttime parking in the day when they run into do grocery shopping and they park outside um the driveways that we have for or that you're proposing uh all marked no parking so my my concern is the the 10 on Street par uh might become uh overused and it might be it might not really provide enough for the short-term parking because that's where most people will want to use to park and then there will be illegal parkings on the other side of the street or I don't know how you you can address that because not everybody will be parking into the garage in the daytime so there's going to be the provisions for short-term parking in the day I don't see it here and that access road is going to be uh very critical uh in the day so can you address what you en Visage the packing uh needs and uh management will be uh in a typical day well I guess a couple comments on that one would be the owners of these particular units um will have certain deed restrictions and and be under purveyance of said rules and operation of through the HOA agreement as to what's permitted and what's not permitted so clearly there would be demarcation of um where parking is not permitted within the the access Alleyways that we're showing on the plan um because that that was requested by the town additionally if we took a look at the overall parking requirement as necessitated by the ordinance I think we have about 45 parking stalls in total that we required to have for this development um we exceed that with 57 parking stalls but if I take 45 parking stalls and I um try to figure out what the proportion of the required 45 stalls the 10 available on Street stalls are that we have we have 22% of that Municipal requirement available on street and I think a 20 22% on Street available parking um which is a a quarter almost a quarter of the Town requirement is substantial enough you know at least in our view um to provide some temporary parking on the street for the instance that you're talking about it's not that we have Jim it's sort of late in the evening I just want to make sure everybody understands you say there are 57 spaces on the property and then there are 10 more on the street so there's actually 67 spaces if you add in the street parking that could be used by visitors am am I right 57 spaces on site yes and 10 spaces offsite okay that's good good to get that um clarified I mean I expect people will use them if they're available and If not they're going to drive in and go in their garage um yeah um does that is that uh you have anything else Mr R CK no no that's uh the the other I think the the the that was answered with regards to uh who how much improvement or who builts the road uh there wasn't any indication in the site plan as to the extent of the roadway improvements that they were going to do but I think uh Mr basy had answer said that uh they they're building the entire road so um they're building the all of it that's on their property and then the where it extends from their property to The Shopping Center parking lot is actually on the neighboring property occupied by the Alice and I guess when which is building that project will will'll build that part of the road yeah and and to and to be clear like 80% of the road is our responsibility to build when has a small portion um going back to the point of I you know we're gonna obviously come back tonight I mean we're not going to ask for a vote tonight we're going to come back and we got a lot of information which was helpful but um you know wind's been calling me every day to say hey can we coordinate the road I mean we need to get the road built wi also needs it built and um can we coordinate this so um it's good that we're getting all this info so we can come back and hopefully get this done thank you um Miss Miss Wilson Anderson and then um Mia sax and then Dan Weissman Claudia you're um you're on mute this is probably more of a comment than a question but when I'm looking at the middle buildings I'm seeing a 24 foot span between the garages at the far the top end I guess that's 24 feet I just Googled I see something that says 24 ft right underneath the 30 that's that's just the limit of the pavement we have pavers that extend driveway pavers so the buildings are 30 fet wide uh 30 feet separated yeah so that's enough room for the average I pickup truck's 20 feet an Audi A7 is 17 feet that's enough turning room for cars to move around in there if there's more than one car or there garbage cans sitting out there or garbage pickup yeah that would be sufficient for egress out of the garages turning radius it's all good okay yeah also to add to that Jim these were the limitations we were instructed to design by by Municipal professionals right I mean by the Fire official Joe Novak at the time by Deana so U we follow the recommendation and it does happen that happen to be that yes it does work with the Turning radiuses um and so when it comes to the layout of The Bu buildings a lot of thought went into this early on in the process thanks for that Mia sax and then Dan Weissman yeah I just want to confirm there was a great deal of work done by the municipal professionals on on parking and um you know emergency vehicle um access and so on and so I I don't know that we really need to belabor the point I do think we're devolving into a level of minuti that maybe we we don't need to since we're coming back any time another time um and um but I I I just want to say you know I've you know I'm gradually adjusting to a totally different aesthetic than was initially presented with the original architect nevertheless the front uh facing facade of the affordable units still looks incredibly cheap generic um and I think not in keeping with the overall aesthetic of what what we're where we're going with this area and I would um I'm not an architect so I can't provide you with any suggestions of how to do it better other than I know that you can do it better um and I hope that you could spend some time interfacing with our professionals um and um coming back with something that uh is more appealing than what was presented tonight and thank you for that Mia and and with some specific information about materials and finishes and that kind of thing because those kinds of details really make a big difference in the final final appearance um and I I'm also curious to to know this is sort of sort of related um a lot of times when we look at these architectural um elevations they don't show all the little vents that are on the side of the building if you go up you know and and well look at other fairly recent projects you it it looks almost like the building is polka doted it's got so many Vents and they're not the same color as the siding and they just stick out and they make the facade um just way busier looking and weirder looking than than what you know you see at these meetings so my question is or my ask is you know how do you deal with that do you can you get those um parts that are the same color as the siding or you know so when you come back and and are um testifying about specific materials and whatnot if you could address that question as well I would appreciate it sure I'll just add that yes we can and we usually do coordinate the accessories um with the color of the of the clading materials whether it be brick or siding um and with having pitched grooves and the way we do we do try to effectively vent as much uh possible up through the roof as opposed to out the side walls with probably the exception of the dryer that has to be accessible for maintenance purposes and running that vertically is is actually a fire hazard so but anything like like bathroom venting any um fresh air intakes any HBC uh that would all be located through the roof or at the sidewalls um where they' be screened by by landscape that's a great Point um thank you and since you mentioned HVAC is this an all electric um project somebody mentioned I think it was Mr McDon earlier referred to the PEC memo and um and I think might have misinterpreted part of what it said because as I read the PEC memo it it encouraged a much more vigorous uh or focused attention on green features um and indicated that it could be better not not that it currently meets a particularly high standard when it comes to Green um um you know overall carbon footprint so so my specific question is is this going to be an electric building and I'd also like to know whether it's tonight or next time um you know whether there are uh recommendations made by PEC relative to energy use and O solar Etc um that you're willing to um incorporate into the plan I've actually got some great news for you since um preparing the Green Building checklist last year um as a company we've made some changes based upon the implementation of the new uh State energy code and we're actually a company now that participates in the New Jersey clean energy act uh program which used to be the New Jersey um energy star program um so some of the things that were listed in the PC um the solar is something that we really don't get into just it's a it it's we found a very uh it's difficult with orientations and with with maintenance over time um we usually leave you know leave that up to single family uh detach developments as far as the heating systems go um these would be high efficiency uh gas systems and also uh using tankless hot water heaters all of the components of the building would be energy star uh certified or qualified along with all the envelopes meeting um the uh the prescriptive analysis and compliant with all of the testing needed to be done to be uh certified uh in that program and as well as the the fenestration um and the materials that are that are M that are going to the building are generally all um you know recycled materials and certified materials renewable materials and and talking to um our energy Raider who does all of our uh work throughout the build through our um division generally participating in the clean energy program uh increases your Energy Efficiency by 15 to 20% over a conventionally built home and I think that's a significant um you know like kind of feather in our cap that we're now uh part of uh you know that initiative and and and bringing um you know energy sustainability to um to our communities um it's good that you've taken that step I I hope you'll look at um Electric uh systems for HVAC because um you know gas natural gas is a carbon Fuel and it's um we need to wean ourselves off of it um Mr Weissman and then Mr Lesco thank you just two uh brief uh points of clarification the access roadway is located on the adjacent lot it is not located on on this property um so that's on the Alice's development uh um and then just to briefly touch upon the the drive aisle again um the drive aisle for between the the tow houses is 24 feet which is a municipal standard width for parking lots um so that that already accounts for T turning movements um in and out of those parking spaces thank you for that correction I got that wrong um but we need don't need to go into that in the minutes uh just kidding Justin uh so just a question for the record will the parallel parking spaces be open to all or will they only be open to tenants of this development or guests of tenants the 10 Street spaces yes well that comes back to whether it's a public Street doesn't it I I think it's it they're open it was envisioned that they would be open to the public and at that part as far as I know that part of the road is is public be so as part of this approval you know we won't be approving any sort of signage restricting it or or anything like that I wouldn't think yeah and just to be clear my lousy joke before I was not suggesting that we should not include in the minutes the information that the roadway is on the neighboring property and not on this propert that you made a mistake referring to my own mistake okay Lise your jokes are always fabulous just that one that one was like a lead balloon um other questions from board members I I would like to hear from the public tonight it's almost 10:30 and um people have been waiting patiently and I don't know whether we have folks who want to speak tonight but I do want to to hear from people who have been here and might have um something to say so other questions from board members okay seeing none I will open up um for public comment um we'll have public comment again uh at the next time we hear this U but if you'd like to address the board um tonight now is the time to virtually raise your hand we have 11 people in the attendees area um I'm not seeing any hands go up if you want to speak you need to click on raise hand icon at the bottom of your screen and I'm not seeing any so I will close the public comment um this meeting I think we can assume they're all in support I think we can assume they might just want to wait and comment after after all is heard you're you're probably right I'm I'm sorry because I'm the most forward out of all my colleagues I want to come back the next time and I want you guys to be happier with the application so I just want to summarize what we talked about today and what I understand are the critical elements because again um back to John McD's testimony there's a lot of benefits of this development we've talked about them the road the affordable housing I I think the town wants to see this project happen and obviously so do we so I just want to be very clear on specifically what we're addressing when we come back um we will have someone from Toll Brothers to testify specifically to the HOA elements you know how are they going to upkeep the buffers and um uh the impact on the rest of the project as far as HOA is concerned I I will say though the HOA presents a little bit different challenge but in my opinion a good challenge it means that there's going to be homeowners living here as opposed to renters my personal opinion um I I think probably a lot of people in town at least I spoke to agree with me on that um and then it seems like the second really pressing item is the townhouse and units facing the new access road I think the planning board understands how it's not realistic for me to actually meet the same percentage as the front without actually totally gutting the front I mean that's not the intent of of why that was written that way the intent was to make them look nice right so the intent was to make the side look like a front yeah I mean that I'm I'm just using Mr Cohen's word and words and that is exactly what I wanted to see too and I know others did as well so whether it's you know meets the finra ratio etc etc is not the key issue the key issue is whether it looks like the front of a dwelling okay so uh I think you know we need to rec congregate on our side with to brothers and and try to to the best of our abilities meet the intent of the way the ordinance was written um so it sounds like we maybe have some redesign architecturally you know I don't think it's going to have any major impact on site plan um and it sounds like we've heard a lot of comments on site plan we've addressed a lot of them uh so we'll work on those two items and if there's something that I'm missing I I I would I would like to hear now for something really pressing the last thing I'd like to yeah I'm sorry to interrupt um the the other thing that um I think Mr tar said you you would address uh after coming when you come back is the question of the magnolia trees the feasibility of relocating those um because that is a you know those are mature Magnolias that's a very big deal and and um yeah I I remember yeah no we we know about it and I I even though it's not like baked into the actual zoning we did have in all honesty we had discussions about them and and about preserving them and so we do understand the importance of that um uh Jim kamalak and I will we'll work on like where they are now as opposed to where the buildings are I mean he sent me a really quick sketch over text but this will give us um couple weeks at least to iron that out so we'll come back and give you guys more info on those Magnolias um and I guess the last item is and I and I heard this from Mia is with the affordable units I just want to I guess set the record straight the the affordable units um the the design of them like specifically the actual specific design like down to the actual elevation and floor plan was part of the settlement agreement and and maybe I can show you guys that but not the facade it's the facade that's different how how so specifically just and the re reason we have an open discussion is so that when I come back I want to be able to to to satisfy all your guys concerns I think you can do better with the facade so and as I said since I'm not an architect or a planner but I I know that you can do better without facade and even if it's even if it's more like the facade that you have with the internal the internal facades are more aesthetically attractive than than the affordable units okay so materials you know that makes a big difference too it's a very dated style it's a it's it it just you know it looks cheap um and and those are you know we we don't want the affordables they should be more consistent with the aesthetic that you have with with the internal units it may be helpful next time we go next time we have a meeting for me to pull up um uh some illustrations that the architect who designed them presented as part of the settlement and then we can kind of discuss further and go from there but we'll certainly take that in consideration and talk about it amongst ourselves and you know we want the development to look nice and we wanted uh it was my words to say it's transitionary from single family to win I mean wi is super high density they're four stories with mushrooms on the top and we do think that this is an appropriate like Daniel it was my idea I I'm totally on board it was my idea actually to have those look like single family but they should look like nice single family that's all so just just try to just try to do a better job with how they look on the facade it's not that much to ask just you know the facade could just look nicer not a big Mia we're gonna we're gonna it's not a big ass we're going to work on it and um we we'll do our best to come back to you guys with the application that uh I'm hoping you guys will applaud and say this is wonderful couple of other quick landscape related things um I I hope we can just eliminate the non-native speci species um there was mention of the London plain trees um there are other non-natives there that just have you know zero value to birds and pollinators and can be switched out and Mr dub rilski can can give you know great advice on that and the other thing I'd like to hear is whether any thought and I'm not trying to throw any kind of wrench into storm water planning but whether would there was any ability to preserve more trees on the southern part of the property where you show the trees in in one of the plans you show the locations of the trees but I I was unable to see what the caliper is and whether there are big mature healthy trees on the S southern side or you know based on the um plans we were looking at on the right side um and whether those you know are um saveable able and could be incorporated into the plan rather than clearcut and then replaced with you know new much smaller trees on land that's been graded and is uh harder to successfully right Big Trees so we get it which which we'll carefully look at each tree that's of any significance and see whether it could be saved as opposed to not saved this raises a general question question your two final points I mean I'm assuming this would be referred to your landscape subcommittee after any approval and to go through the detailed study that we always do in that context I think Jim went on it in some detail with what he proposed but uh I don't know whether you're going to want to hear that again in a in the public hearing or whether just defer it to plcape as often as done yeah and just what just those two things I mean I you don't even need to if we can have an assurance that the non-native species will be replaced with Native species I would just like to hear a little bit of testimony before landscape you know because that's not not something that we should be messing with at landscape at the storm water plan I just want to know whether there is a way to incorporate any of the bigger trees on the on the south side of the to the storm water plant both of those we'll get to it at the public hearing but I just to make sure that it's you we're we're all assuming that it's going to also get another look through landscape subcommittee yes yeah and the and the height I Know Dan was uh Dan Doos in his report was concerned about the height of a number of the trees I'm not sure where that stands we have we have a response on that we'll bring that back next time yeah good all thanks Chris okay well um thank you very much um for all your testimony tonight and for um the work that you'll do between now and the next meeting to bring back uh something that we can all be happy with is is there any chance that we could identify a meeting to which this could be carried so we didn't Ren notice as Carrie or anybody Philip do you have some some advice for us there or uh we've been looking at the calendar and we're trying to determine what works best uh how much time Daniel do you think you need to make these adjustments to the um design of the building I think it's a really question for Jeremy um I mean we need to get together on it but Jeremy what do you think is actually realistic um yeah I mean not knowing exactly what your hearing uh calendar is and just knowing what you're you're requesting um the that town home buildings if we're going to be redesigning the floor plans um to perhaps have a side entry and to um increase um again I know it's not just about the ratio but to to change the uh the look a little bit um that's that's a bit of work and then we have to prepare all of the updates to the floor plans and the rendering so that we have um something to present the next time around that we can compare from here's what we've presented the originally and to here's what we got to uh same thing with the the affordable and again I'm a little surprised by by the commentary on that because we we believe that based upon the the documents and the settlement agreement um that the the elevations were are are much improved from from when they were done by uh the previous architect and again I I testified the fact the materials throughout the development were going to be consistent so there's no there's no cheapness intent uh for materials or anything like that and we did um I thought we did a a nice job putting them together but we can reconsider that in doing you think Jeremy a month is a month enough time we have April April 4th is open how we start let's say that's how many weeks is that now and you got to provide anything new 10 days before 10 days prior right right okay April 4th then we'll we'll you could carry to that if there if we can't make it we we we would ask for another date then but we would avoid that's six weeks that sounds pretty good if you told me the middle of March I might panic but that's that's a reasonable request thank you no no Panic no Panic All right well we thank you very much and just thank you we did have something tely scheduled for that night but it was not confirmed so I guess that's their loss they're out Carrie just cancel them Carrie just cancel them um Jerry Mr M you were going to say something just for the members of the public there won't be any further notice and as was just indicated this is is going to be carried to April 4th um okay um MX yeah I ju I just wanted to affirm what Daniel said that the town does want to see this happen for all the very eloquent reasons that uh Mr mcdono stated um and we believe that it will contribute to what is becoming an increasingly vibrant area around the shopping center and um I you know appreciate the applicant's willingness to um uh go back uh and and make some modifications to make it even better and and I I'm very confident that when you come back we'll um it'll be with a better product that we can all get excited about so thank you very much for for your willingness to be cooperative appreciate that yep thank you um good so uh I think we're done not seeing any hands raised at the last minute except Mr Cohen's I think that was my cue I that was your CU I moved to a j second second all in favor please say I I opposed good all right thank you all again thank you have a good evening next time night night good night