##VIDEO ID:nUVOgWipdNI## okay okay good evening and welcome this is a regular meeting of the Princeton planning board on Thursday November 7th 20124 pursuant to section 13 of the open public meetings act adequate notice of the time and place of this meeting has been given by prominently posting the resolution of regularly scheduled meetings of the planning board of Princeton for February 2024 through January 2025 a copy was filed with the clerk of Princeton on January 8th 2024 legal notice on the adoption of said resolution was published in the January 12th 2024 edition of the Princeton packet notice that this meeting has also been posted to the municipal website princetonnj.gov calendar notice that all regular and special meetings of the Princeton planning board will be held electronically via Zoom was transmitted to the Princeton packet and the times and was filed with the clerk of Princeton on Tuesday January 17 2023 please note this meeting is being recorded during hearings on applications for development members of the public will have an opportunity to comment and ask questions public comment is heard by the board after an applicant's Representatives have finished their presentations and have been questioned by board members and staff those wishing to comment orally should virtually raise your hand by clicking on the reactions button or the rais hand icon at the bottom of your Zoom screen or if par participating by phone by pressing star9 oral comments will be taken in the order in which hands were raised we ask with respect that members of the public express your views in three minutes or less a countdown clock will be used to help speakers keep track of time and speakers who exceed three minutes will be interrupted inappropriate public comment containing obscenity hate speech or relating to matters not before the board will be muted Carrie will you call the role please Mr bimer here miss capoli here Mr Cohen here Mr McGowan here miss Nuka here Mr Donnell here miss pearlmutter here miss saxs Mr Taylor Miss Wilson Anderson here Mrs Wilson here we have a quorum um announcements Justin Madam chair and good evening members of the board and members of the public um not so much of an announcement well I guess a little bit but just that there is a uh board meeting next Thursday night um it's a Princeton University application um we've kind of gone out of order uh as I mentioned a few weeks ago or not out of order but we've had four uh meetings in five weeks so I'm just a reminder next week is the fifth or the fourth uh and fifth week um so I also bring this up just to thank you all for being here uh for all of those both board members and staff thank you um and I agree thank you to everybody thanks Mr Mr leco and thanks to the board um okay do we I don't think we have any subcommittee reports tonight um and I don't have any announcements are there any other announcements from board members or from staff okay uh let's move into the application then um we have one here from Princeton shopping center preliminary and final major site plan with variances for signage this is at 301 North Harrison Street file number P 242 4- 506 p and Madame chair proof of publication and service are in order and the board has jurisdiction excellent thanks Jerry yep uh Mr leco want to get us started certainly Jerry would you like to swear me in yeah if you could raise your right hand and is Dan here and he's going to testify too I assume Dan yeah Dan Weissman uh to Derek as well and Derek yes Derek you're here yes I am yes okay great um do you swear affirm that testimony about to give will be the truth yes sir I do so one or affirmed thank you jar thank you madam chair um I would like to share my screen as I normally do let's see if I could get it working on the smaller computer and I am sharing um I'm using the near map GIS software uh mapping application for today's application before you if we'd like to make this pb1 Jerry yes please Yep this is different from what I normally show um like the one from the software from Rowan University or the njgo web one um because there have been changes uh quite literally to the shopping center in the past months since the imagery on those was last uh updated but as you can see here this imagery is from uh about two weeks ago um so this is you can't get much more up to date than that um so uh without further ado um you see the Princeton Shopping Center in the center of your screen at 301 North Harrison Street uh it is in the SC shopping center zoning District of the former Township uh Grover Park is to the east uh mostly single family homes are to the South um single family homes in a small office building are to the west and a new apartment building known as the Alice uh is to the north um in the future a road uh will connect to Hune road to the shopping center and I'm just bringing all these up to remind everyone I'm sure everyone here knows all about the shopping center and many of the board members have seen all these applications in the near past um so you could see the six buildings of the shopping center around an internal Courtyard uh they're surrounded by surface parking and these buildings are designated a through F uh you could also see maybe if I zoom in if I could figure out how to do that you could see and I'll take the roads layer off uh you could also see the new Avalon on PR Avalon Prince on Harrison is what they're calling it um apartment building on part of the courtyard uh there are also three Standalone buildings uh towards North Harrison Street uh PNC Bank Nomad Pizza Company and the new wall uh green Standalone uh drive-through Pharmacy uh the shopping center was opened in 1954 um zooming ahead to 2021 the board approved a minor subdivision and major site plan application to allow for the Walgreens building to relocate from building D which was over here uh to its current location in the new building uh the old Walgreens portion was demolished and the apartment building was approved uh to be put in its place the portion of building D next to the demolition was approved to have a different facade and signage scheme as part of that application um I would describe that uh scheme as a more minim IST one uh with facades painted white and building features in Black uh then in 2023 the site plan committee classified and recommended approval of a minor site plan application to allow for the remainder of building D to follow that same scheme while the rest of uh uh the building is under construction uh so since then the applicant has received administrative waiver approvals to continue this facade and signage scheme at buildings B C and F to match building D and those are all the ones around the courtyard except for uh the one with maccaffrey Supermarket um this would create essentially one look consistently between all of the buildings of the shopping center except for McCaffrey's and the PNC Bank um but including the new Walgreens uh the Avalon apartment building to some extent and The Nomad Pizza building which was already similar uh to that scheme uh while these improvements are under construction the shopping center is looking to replace all of the facade signs for the stores uh many of these uh signs do not require variances from the municipal zoning code and have been or in the or are in the process of being processed administratively um some of them are even already up like at Starbucks um Dental Care of Princeton and Duncan as of last week so the application before the board tonight is for those facade signs for stores which require variances or or for signs I should say which require variances as well as two other types of signs directory signs and an identification sign um I expect the shopping center will present the details as well as images um so I will end my introduction with a brief summary of these types of signs uh first um the applicant is requesting 24 variances for 24 facade signs at 16 businesses these variances are requested to uh uh install larger signs than the municipal ordinance allows next the applicant is requesting seven variances to install three directory signs uh there are currently four directory signs on the site as is permitted by ordinance the existing ones are required to be located in a courtyard or passageway leading to the courtyard and can have a maximum area of eight square feet and a maximum height of five feet uh a variance would then be required to allow the three additional uh ones on top of the four uh directory signs that the ordinance allows um the three proposed are each 8 feet in height requiring variances from the maximum height of 5et two of them would be 27 feet in area and the third would be 96 squ feet in area compared to the 8 square feet allowed uh thus those would also require variances so Justin the four the four existing um directory signs they need variances as well uh no they do not uh those are allowed under the ordinance so how do we come up with seven variances when there's three new directory signs I don't understand that so so the uh three for the area of each three for the height of each and one for the number of three you know three additional on top of the four so I guess we could have you know you call it seven that's fine thank you yeah good question though um the two smaller ones of those signs uh would be near the new road from trune um and near the Walgreens respectively along the uh Road um the larger one would be near the center's current main vehicular entrance off of Valley Road and again I'm just giving a brief introduction because I'm sure they're going to reinforce this through their presentation with images and locations and and all that um so lastly the applicant is requesting a quote landlord shopping center identification sign with retailer names end quote um this sign would be identical in size to the larger directory sign that's being uh asked for at 96 square feet and is propos osed to be in an existing grass area along Harrison Street by Nomad Pizza um this type of sign is not permitted by ordinance which requires a variance uh though there are two shopping center identification signs along North Harrison Street near the Walgreens entrance and near the valley road entrance uh one of those signs will be replaced by a new one with the Shopping Center's name and Avalon's name as part of uh the 2021 approval and uh as Allowed by ordinance that's obviously the one down closer to the Walgreens I had that incorrect in my staff report so I did want to clarify it here there's not going to be two separate ones there the one that's already there is being replaced okay and this new proposed identification sign before you would also require a variance to be internally illuminated um so I have a few questions as well as comments from my staff report uh though I will hold them until the end uh if you would allow Madame chair um I'd like to defer to applicants presentation at this time uh since this all probably seems pretty abstract uh to look at an application on signage without seeing any of the images of the signage yet so um I'll hold that and uh as you know Mr Bridger and Mr Weissman are also here with their engineering and Zoning report thank you great thank you um so um are there any pressing urgent red flag type issues that Dan or Derek uh you want to bring up or shall we move right into the um nothing from Dan I assume nothing from Derek since he didn't activate his camera have any questions we'll address them but Justin gave a great overview and I think if you see the pictures it'll help you realize yeah good great thank you um Mr Letizia on behalf of of of the shopping center hello welcome I guess you're up thank you madam chair for the record Tom Leia attorney with Troutman Pepper Hamilton Sanders representing Princeton Edens LLC uh the owner of the Princeton uh shopping center uh Justin did a excellent job providing a uh an overview of this particular application as you I'm sure know there's been a number of Renovations at the shopping center over the past uh several months uh and this signage project constitutes the last phase of the uh exterior upgrades uh to the center so Eden is uh very anxious uh to move forward with these new uh tenant signs um e has been working with their staff for many months on these plans and sort of finding a way forward to uh to obtain relief for a certain number of tenant signs in order to provide an aesthetic uniform appearance uh in terms of signage as uh Justin noted uh the majority of the signs for the individual tenants uh have already been approved through the administrative uh waiver uh process so we're just focusing tonight on the uh 24 Merchant signs that uh require a variance from I believe it's attachment a of section T10 B- 297a of the sign ordinance and the specific variance we're seeking from that standard relates to this 35% requirement uh which has to be determined based on the width of the store facade for each Merchant with um the total square footage for each Merchant not exceeding 24 Square ft so the variance we're seeking is actually from the 35% component of that standard none of the signs that we're going to be speaking of tonight exceed the 24 square feet so we we comply with that part of the standard what we're focusing on is the 35% but depending on the amount of storefront that a tenant has that sign size can vary obviously and applying that sign standard to certain tenants it just doesn't work in terms of providing what we believe is a sufficiently sized sign so that's why we're here in terms of hopefully getting relief so that as you'll see in the uh in the plans provide for a more uniform look the uh second type of sign as Justin noted is the uh directory signs we're adding three uh to the already four that are on the site uh and these are geared more towards vehicular traffic the existing directory signs or uh wave finding signs if you will um are really for pedestrians um so they're not geared towards someone in a vehicle so the ones that we're going to talk about tonight are uh designed for uh vehicle uh customers as well as uh emergency uh vehicles and then the final uh sign is is a new ID project ID sign and um your staff has determined that it's a unique type sign that's not currently permitted under the ordinance um although um there are other ID signs um that are on the site this would have been an additional one um to again uh provide proper identity uh for uh the center what's sort of unique about this particular ID sign is that it's going to also include some of the major tenants uh so anyone driving by again can it will provide some exposure uh to for tenants especially those in the rear uh of the uh of the shopping center so um that's essentially Le in terms of my introduction I I I do want to note that we did review uh the me from your staff both Justins um dated uh October 31 as well as the engineering and zon report from Dan and Derek of September 25th and we'll we'll address the questions that are raised in the reports uh in our testimony but generally speaking uh we have no major issues and will comply so with that I'm going to turn it over to um Ryan meing with uh Edens who's going to uh present uh the proposed signage and Mr Leia let's um let's swear in uh your Witnesses all at all at once and then as they speak we will um you know qualify them one by one right before they testify okay very good so I just have two I have Mr Leeming and and Mr uh Alex Dy who's our professional planner okay so both of you can raise your right hand do you swear or affirm that testimony about to give it be the truth I do and is the other person here Mr Leeming uh would you um yeah they're both here Jerry would you state your name and spell your last name for the record sure good evening everyone Ryan Leeming Le i n g I'm vice president of development with Edens thank you great thank you and Mr Dy um say your name and spell your last name Alexander dowy last name is d u g h r Ty great okay so well thank you so we'll begin with Mr Leman Mr lean can you uh identify uh your position uh with Edens sure um the vice president of development with Edens and uh the Princeton shopping center is one of the uh retail centers that uh is under uh your uh control or uh supervision yes it is okay uh so with that I believe you have a number of exhibits you're going to show uh regarding the the proposed signage yes that's acceptable to the board I'll share my screen and give a short presentation that would be great go right ahead so um Mr M identified as A1 I'm sorry Ryan a A1 uh we'll have all slides uh just marked as A1 is that how you want do it yeah how many in this um slide deck I believe 24 or 25 Mr Le okay yep that' be A1 okay 21 Pages 21 Jerry okay good okay and Mr Leeming to to interrupt you for the fourth time um if you would identify as you go along identify the slide that you're on okay sure okay thanks sure so um just starting here um thank you Madame chair members of the board for allowing us to be here tonight to walk you through this um as I think I heard some chatter at the beginning of the meeting and Tom and both Justin said we're really excited to be here um we're excited to present this and talk about this um you know we began this project this this facade renovation project about a year ago um and I feel like we started talking about signage about a year ago as well um and so a lot of of work has gone in in working with staff to um bring this forward um so thank you Justin Derek Dan for the time spent so this is just page one my title title slide here um moving to page two um we had the benefit of having some recent Drone footage um of the shopping center in the neighboring area so I thought it would be a unique way to just Orient people a little bit um as as I heard at the beginning of the meeting we've talked about the shopping center a lot so I'll keep this quick um North Harrison Street sits at the bottom of this slide and then moving from the top left of the screen if you can see my cursor working your way clockwise around the property this is just how we identify the buildings when we speak of them so Building B sits in the top left of this plan where conquered pet Metropolis Princeton makes reside Building C here Ace Hardware Blue bears pizza star building D chopped Verizon Center Barber Shop Building E which represents half of the front building along North Harrison uh Duncan Bella Boutique Lily pies MP cross culture and then building F Starbucks Princeton Bridal pamo Orvis Bagel knook image arts and others I only named a few of our retailers but just to orient everyone a little bit wanted to share a couple photos for those uh members who maybe haven't been over to the center in a little while if you've been over you're familiar with the project um but this is the finished look of the facades um as Justin mentioned we did seek administrative waiver for our facade upgrades that project began early this year um and that work is substantially complete there's been a lot of work over there the last year everyone has been terrific to work with uh but we're really excited to be here presenting this last piece as you can see some of the signs in this photo are those that were previously proved under administrative waiver and so this is just meant to to give you the look and the feel for the shopping center another photo um taken from the other angle just again to show some of the signs some of the facade the lighting we chose to go with Halo illumination for all of the signs if you remember these signs were previously external illuminated um we felt like this was a significant upgrade into the signage of the property this is a shot of the courtyard again just to to to show off the shopping center quite frankly uh we're very proud of the upgrades we've done there some work to the Clock Tower and then you can see the courtyard facades as well if you look to the left you see the Orvis sign as you can see some of the facade signs are missing uh and that's really what we're here to talk about tonight those those select retail signs that need variances and Ryan um yeah the are these slides numbered if they are I'm sorry this is number five okay that' be great and if you could sorry about that no problem sorry about that um slide number six here or page number six this is just a view of the front again new awning new facade storefront and then a great shot of the new Bella Boutique sign with that Halo elimination slide uh this is slide seven it the this is just another again just some imagery just to to give everyone a good feel of the look and feel here the Lily pies and pamo signs and absent is a Bella Boutique sign in the middle there that requires a variance so at this point um and I don't know if it's appropriate to ask questions as I go you're welcome to if it's appropriate but um I want to step now into the elevations of all of the buildings and just walk board through the specific signs that we're asking a variance for or asking for relief for in context of all of the signs so you can get a sense of what's approved what's already either installed or to be installed versus the signs that require relief and I'm going to go building by building so this is slide eight or page eight this is Building B so again this is that the building that has conquered pet Metropolis Tranquility den and we're looking at the parking lot side of that building or the grover park side and what I've done here is I've highlighted every sign either as it was submitted or where we may have a vacant sign or a to be determined sign um I've highlighted it in green to show that this is approved you know we're not specifically speaking about that sign but we are speaking about Tranquility Den Lacrosse Unlimited Color Me Mine kids United which is a new retailer of ours coming soon if you've been to the shopping center you've seen maybe some of their signs and what this is meant to illustrate to to everyone here is that while these signs are seeking a variance or seeking relief the intent the whole intent of this program and working with staff was to actually work with that 35% maximum square footage in the code and so we studied each individual retailer in each individual brand and worked with each retailer on what they wanted their new brand to look and feel like and said okay based upon code and the artwork you've given me what does 35 square feet look like on the facade and then we made a determination along with the retailer as our partner and we said this works this fits this feels good this feels like it fits the new facade it fits the new sign band doesn't feel too big doesn't feel too small it fits and then if it met that 35% we submitted it as an administrative waiver and we went on to the next sign and the next sign and what we came away with was there are a handful of retailers at the shopping center that don't have a lot of Frontage there small retailers they're small shops and so in some cases they may only get a four square foot sign or a five square foot sign but they're positioned in the center next to a retailer that gets a 12 foot sign as a result of that 35% so we said well what happens if we take that brand we take that logo and we upssize it to fit not much bigger smaller Etc but to fit proportionate and consistent with everyone else what does that look like and really that those are the elevations that you see on the screen here and that's what drove the amount of variances that we asked for and you know we did start with more but in looking at it and really studying it and working with the retailer and saying what if you if you moved your word over here or you made this bigger made that smaller you know we we think we think we can make this work with the 35% and in an effort to try to frankly bring the amount of variances down right not come in and sort of say we need relief for everyone but to try to think smartly and strategically about that I'll move a little bit quicker now since I I gave you that uh this is page nine this is is the courtyard side of Building B again the approved signs are in green and these signs we're asking for a variance are shown with some red text again what we're trying to really show here is that all of the signs are a consistent size together you know consistent shape consistent size consistent height no one's really bigger than each other they all feel about the same this is Building C where Ace Hardware um lives again the green signs are approved you know Building C weren't that many variances Mathnasium is a great example of a very small retailer at the shopping center with a very large brand so we said well they have that A+ that great A+ brand what happens when we size that up appropriately what does that do to that sign and how does that sign look in the context of the other signs and we felt like again this sign needs a variance you know 35% just would make it feel too small um Mr Cohen quick question yeah I think this is appropriate time to ask it I'm looking at the pizza star sign and I know that pizza star has two uh frontages right they have a frontage into the courtyard and they have one on the side and I'm wondering as a general approach um when that's the case I assume you're using both facades to get the linear foot of Frontage and then calculate the 35% off of that or are you handling it in a different way that's a great question thanks thank you Mr Cohen um so what we tried to do in certain cases where a retailer has a corner space like pizza star or like Ras or MP in in the front building um we looked at the larger of the two facades because the way the code is written it's it's per facade so we looked at the larger of the two first and we said what does that get us what does that look like you know we're going to take the the take the advantage of the maximum size what does that get us how does that feel and then actually in a couple of cases using the larger facade and going up to 35% and then looking at the smaller facade and the 35% of that in the context of the facade we are taking advantage of the larger facade but again in some cases not fully because that facade might be a little bit too long and with the 35% that sign might feel a little bit too big we felt like that sign might feel a little bit too big we know we have the right to go up to that 35% of the larger facade but again might have felt too big and it might have pushed this sign up on the smaller facade to a place where it felt too big on that facade so it was a little bit of a balancing act but we did let the longer facades on those key retailers Drive the initial sign design I could I jump in for a moment I don't quite understand so if we can use Pizza Star as an example if you didn't use all the square footage on the um facade facing the courtyard is is what you're saying that you you can use that square footage that you did not use on the other um thead as well as no okay no no all I'm saying is we just didn't take advant of all of the square footage that the longer may have provided okay fair enough thank you so just Pete again in the case of Pizza Star do you have a second sign for Pizza Star at the second facade because it's not a I mean the with the narrow width of that um passageway and the awning I'm not even sure you could see a sign that was above the awning if on the and that's the longer facade as well the one yeah so do you have two signs for pizza star or just the one we do have two signs um we do have two signs and actually it's a great thing to mention here but that facade obviously with the construction of the residential building that that passageway has been open up you know previously their Walgreens sat there and so it's been opened up significantly and so as part of our facade project we actually did rebuild that facade entirely and we will be bringing in an awning and giving that the consistent look and putting in signs for all of those retailers which I don't think they've they ever had at the shopping center before okay great okay that's that's all the questions I have about and here's that facade David for you on the next page uhuh so you can see that pizza star sign at that same size on this long you can see the facade on this in this image it's a much longer facade so it fits and it's it's allowable by code here um the one sign on this side it's the opposite of Pizza Star where Rita actually has a much longer facade on the parking lot side and a very small facade facing this way so again if we just use this facade length the Rita's sign would be much smaller um and that's again that's what is triggering the relief request for that specific Rita sign right okay thanks you're welcome just moving here that was page 11 sorry I keep forgetting to mention these um moving to the next slide it's labeled here is 13 um this is building East we're moving to the front buildings now again wanted to show all the signs in context highlighting the green signs as previously approved um Bella Sweet 460 which will be a new retailer four elements Dental Care Duncan um but as you can see maybe about 50% of the signs here um do require relief and that's because we have a lot of retailers with a very small amount of storefront um so again to just keep that look consistent requires um more variances than some of the other buildings this is the same building building e on the courtyard side again the ones in green previously approved and you can see it's the same retailers um as as the other side one thing about building e worth worth mentioning um because it's a little bit of a unique condition I'm going back one slide now but um if you remember the shopping center Lily pies actually for a long period of time had a sign on the front of building e and we learned that um because there's no Frontage there that sign is actually maybe not allowed um you know and so what we're doing is we're TR trying to make that right now by coming in getting the relief it needs to make that sign comply and so that that's interesting uh case we felt like again maintaining that sign maintaining that presence for Lily Pines was important it had been there for so long and then also Bella Boutique on the courtyard side so Bella had a sign on the courtyard side at that main that main sort of Center walkway technically they don't have any Frontage there um so we're asking for a variance to bring that sign back and then building F this is the other front building um this is two retailers looking for Relief so Forever Young which is a brand new Med Spa that just recently opened at the shopping center um and bagel Nook again Starbucks image Arts Alpha fit Orvis Pama those have all been approved administratively um and so Bagel looking Forever Young just have a little bit bigger logo they have a lot of letters there um and limited Square limited Frontage so that's what's that's what's really driving the variance and then this is just the courtyard side of that same building so Forever Young and bagel not early the two retailers in building F looking for Relief at that I guess at this point I'm prepared to move into the site signage um I'm happy to pause if there are any questions are there other questions from board members or staff about the um the building signage okay um go right ahead Mr Leeming okay thank you than very much madam we're on slide 17 now moving to yep 17 moving to 18 now and um this image here is maybe like you know what am I looking at this is a bit of a a surprise here but what I wanted to do with the site signage is I wanted to sort of set the table a little bit with a lot of the conversations we had with staff over the months um at one point this the image that's in the top right here is a a large I would call pylon type sign at Plainsboro Plaza and um you know there was discussion very early about you know presence along North Harrison and Gateway identity and signage and how do we you know curb appeal and all these things and we kind of said okay let us think about that a little bit and think about the right way to approach that given the code but also given the signage that exists on site and the sign in the middle of the screen here just to remind everyone this is the previously approved sign that will go in place of the sign at Walgreens that Justin spoke about this is the sign that uh us and Avalon will be providing to identify Avalon and also continue to identify the shopping center and so we said we already have this family of sign coming to the shopping center what if we took that same type of sign but we're mindful of the other types of signs in and around Princeton uh we were directed to one at at 300 Witherspoon street that you know was a sort of shorter sign it had some logo or some retail you know brand identity on it it also had panels for identity it had lighting it had a nice base it was a great identification sign but it wasn't large it wasn't something I think someone might have been Derek who said you know some of those signs belong out on Route One you know we don't we don't we don't have a lot of those signs here in the town of Princeton you know everything the scale here is much smaller it's much more intimate and so we really tried to think about that and think about this sign in the center here and scattered around are just some inspirational images um so moving to slide 19 now this is a site plan to just again reorient everyone but also identify the locations of the signs so the sign on the screen in blue we have down here by Walgreens we have the previously approved Avalon and Princeton Shopping Center Monument or identification sign we also have the current existing shopping center identification sign at Valley Road which if I go back one slide is this existing sign in the bottom left here just to remind the board coming back to to slide 19 now we are asking for an additional Monument or identification sign here at the entrance to no where Nomad Pizza is this is that third sign that Mr Lesco referenced and this is a shopping center identification sign which we're also requesting like some other signs you know where that have some identity brand Identity or names of operators we are asking to incorporate names of retailers into this sign and only this one sign not the other two just just this one here in addition to the signs along North Harrison we also think and one thing we've heard a lot recently um partially due to construction but I think also partially due to the shopping centers got getting a lot of new customers believe it or not and when people enter the shopping center they don't always know where they're going right away and sometimes it's difficult if you're you know if you're going to Ace Hardware for the first time there's no nothing telling you where Ace Hardware is um so we thought as part of this application it would be great to install and ask for Relief to install what we're calling vehicular wayfinding signs uh they were categorized as directory signs but they're different from the directories that sit on site this the directories that sit on site are for pedestrians you know they sit inside the courtyard so once you've parked once you get out when I'm on site a lot I often times see people walk in and stop for a moment try to figure out where they're going and then they see a pedestrian directory and walk over to it and get oriented so with these three signs the goal is to help better direct car traffic as people come in this entrance here and come to a main decision Point people come in this entrance off Valley Road come to a major decision point one of the things we are thinking a lot about now that the residential building is going in right I think everyone rememb is the days where you could take this right and swing on back here and park over here and kind of get in and out a little bit easier we really want people that are now coming in Valley Road to get comfortable taking this left making your way around McCaffrey's we feel like a Third Way finding sign somewhere in this vicinity to kind of let people know keep going right keep going to Ace Hardware keep going to this this key retailer so that it brings them back to the over Parks side and it getss more people back here so I think everyone at least I've witnessed we've all probably witnessed this lot of folks love to come in here this this is obviously not open right now it will be open hopefully very soon but everyone loves to come in and take that right and park up front so yes it's meant to help Orient and direct Vehicles a little bit but it's also in our mind help to provide awareness of who's where at Key decision points points um to vehicular traffic to slide 20 now and this is that design for that what I'm going to call the the green sign in my previous slide at The Nomad Pizza entrance so this is that that special sign as you can see if you remember if I go back if you remember what that Princeton Avalon sign looked like we're trying to mimic that same exact language here and provide us sign that identifies the shopping center and also gives us the opportunity to identify retailers this sign would be double-sided Justin that was a comment in your in your memo now this would be a double-sided sign it would sit perpendicular to North Harrison and be visible from both both sides we'd like the opportunity to introduce retailers names text only know we would not be introducing Brands so again similar to some of the signs around Princeton where office retailers or other retailers are on a sign it's typically just text it's just the name there's no brand not a lot of branding and we would like we are asking for Relief to internally illuminate those names as well this is not allowed in the current ordinance internally illuminated signs um we actually prefer Halo illumination as you can see the Princeton shopping center brand at the bottom is Halo all of the signs at the Princeton shopping center will be Halo illuminated however these panels and the the the size of the text and the letters did not lends to a Halo illumination and so that's why we're asking for that internal illumination to really help to sign Pop um be legible just look great and give the center some new identity and give our retailers some identity out on North Harrison Mr Leman the illumination is just the lettering is that correct that's correct that is correct just light would only come through on the letters and then moving into the other what I'll call three signs or just to go back the red signs here the way finding signs we have two types this top one here is meant to be a very simple panel with letters in directional arrows non-illuminated just messaging very simple messaging not confusing not distracting just simple messaging this sign on the bottom which is D2 this sign is meant to be directly at your Terminus as you enter Valley Road and we wanted this sign to be a little bit more special people are coming in Valley Road it's a sense of arrival they've come to a key decision point we wanted to again mimic that same sign language that you saw princet and Avalon sign with the site identification sign but again we wanted to do a simple panel with messaging that was slide 21 Ryan sorry to interrupt um I noticed there's a note on both of these messaging shown for reference only and the question I have is I you know you have a lot more um retailers than our show don't say on this on this top one this D1 and and D3 sign and um you know I'm I'm curious whether well first of all whether you're representing that this is going to be the size of the text regardless of what it says or are you saying that you could add addition names and the text could be smaller I don't know what the note means messaging shown for reference only yep great Fair great question um knowing that we're here tonight at our first meeting we wanted to show aign design and we wanted to show you the maximum height the maximum width I think this sign the messaging that you see here I don't think we would want too many more names than what you see CU I think things would get a little bit too small and tough to read and also um while it's not finalized the way we're thinking of approaching this because there are so many retailers at the shopping center we're really looking at it from a somewhat of a hierarchy in what you can kind of consider anchor Junior anchor larger retailer um and so the D2 sign um David actually it could be pretty realistic in that you know you have mcaffry the mcaffry is the largest retailer at the shopping center sitting at the top you have Walgreens sitting here you have Ace Hardware Princeton ballet which a lot of people forget about Princeton ballet is a large large partner of ours at the shopping center be great to get that name out there and let let people know the ballet school is here and some of these you know sweet 140 sweet 510 sweet 460 those are vacant today you know we do have um some leases in place for those for those Suites uh we just didn't put their name on the sign yet but those are also larger retailers at the shopping center so there would be some hierarchy there would be some limiting you know there'd be some threshold to limit you know we're not going to put everyone on these signs um however we do want to reserve the right as long as we stay Within These critical Dimensions you know maybe the top sign has it has six in this image maybe it ends up having seven at the end of the day or it has eight I don't think it would get to have 12 or 14 or eight M um so that was the intent of the of the note was to say really we're asking for the the dimension of the sign here and the right to do the sign this is the type of messaging we want to do we might tweak it a little bit which we can obviously we'll address with a assigned permit before we do installation um but that was the intent okay right could I ask a cool question uh I think you know your your comments about size Etc of the U uh of the U basically the uh uses at the shopping center right but do you need that Princeton shopping center um sign at the bottom and Strikes me as branding more than identification of any sort you're already in the shopping center so I'm what purpose that serves Fair um I think it was just another moment for us to in a way to think about this sign as again people come in Valley Road and you have that great Terminus view um one of the things we've always thought is that you're driving in and you're looking at the side of an office building we've always thought we should do something here to give folks a sense of arrival and so it's I'd say for us it's less about branding it's less about the advertising and it's more about just giving folks a sense of aival um that was the reason to to incorporate it and give this sign a similar look and feel to the signs that were the sign that we're proposing on North Harrison okay thank you you're welcome I do have a couple of other questions but I want to give paie a chance um since yeah go go ahead paie uh thank you for the presentation and um it's clear that you've all put so much thought into this um I'm just curious so I noticed first of all the the font that you're using on the Princeton shopping center the Princeton is in the same font as the Princeton University um and I'm just wondering if that's something you've already decided you would like to move ahead with I know a lot of people do like the old signage on of and the font on the existing shopping center sign that's a great you know what that's a great by that's a great I don't know that we ENT no you're absolutely right yeah I don't know that our intent was said to use the same font it is it's Princeton Montello so um I was trying I'm G to try to scramble and pick up our open our style guide to see what we called it uh because I can tell you we didn't call it Princeton monello so um the intent uh obviously we're not we're not speaking about this in this application right now but as part of the the renovation um and the center upgrades that we're doing you know we do want to modernize the name a little bit um and so that's that's I that was the side question and I understand but I you should also know there's some Nostalgia about the shopping center a lot of nostalgia perhaps but uh and uh the existing font in the sign um speaks to a lot of people um okay but my main question was just how you're thinking about the the flow of traffic and the location of the sign so if you're saying the valley road entrance is going to be the main entrance um wouldn't you want to have kind of the main lighted sign near there somewhere well um I don't know if we think of Valley Road as the main entrance we know it's it's a main entrance um that's a fair question I don't think we thought of there's there's also um I think that Justin may be able to speak to this more but the town is also reconsidering um the traffic flow along Harrison and they're doing a quor study or will be doing a quarter study and so that may also affect um how you think about the placement of the signs but obviously we don't we don't have the results of that Corridor study yet you know we did look at each entrance um I know traffic patterns are a little bit different right now given everything going on over there um but it does feel like a lot of folks do use this entrance here um and it was one that was kind of identified as an entrance that a lot of people come into because it's Central and I think that's probably what drove us to think about it that way it is Central but it's very narrow and it's only accessible from Vehicles traveling north on North Harrison correct um and so and it's also um mostly used as an entrance to get to um Nomad Pizza which is there and then the bagel Nook yeah and it's and it's a tricky spot because there so many turning movements cars pulling in and out of yeah of those spaces cars turning in um I think one must exercise some caution in terms of encourage yeah so I I'm just concerned about the traffic safety issues if if the main lighted sign is there if people think that's the main entrance um but if the lighted sign is purely informational um it could go uh perhaps at uh the valley road entrance did I say that correctly yes I guess what I meant is if if you wanted to Mark the main entrance it would make more sense to put it by the valy road entrance which I think of as the main entrance yeah I I think it's fair to say that most people um think of that as the major entrance it's um a lot more people will be using the further the entrance further south who who live at Avalon once that's opened up that's going to be much heavier obviously uh even than it has been in the past but yeah right now that that Valley Road um entrance and exit is you know frequently quite quite busy and even sometimes congested um David or P were you with your sorry David yeah I'm done thank you okay thank you David so two um kind of nit picky questions but I think they're important the D1 sign that you had shown Ryan showed all arrows pointing sorry this one yeah yeah all arrows pointing left and in fact um some of the traffic is want going to want to go straight correct to go around the um the Avalon to get to the to the rear of the shopping center and the question I have is whether you've given thought to how that would be indicated for one thing Ace Hardware is shown as a left Arrow here which is crazy the other way yeah so I would like a little bit more thought given to how that sign should be organized to separate and clearly indicate which retailers one should proceed straight for and which ones you should turn left for and then the other which is an even pickier question is for the sign D2 your bullet um or your leader on the on the site plan shows it lining up with the median of the valley road entrance the the center of that and I think it should be shifted to the South so that it's it's really addressing the incoming traffic good point great it's a great comment yeah neither of those uh nitpicky no my view I think that yeah the direction the arrows really important not to try to Route everybody going to Ace Hardware all the way around the Around the Horn to get there that is just gonna add to and and it's not right it's not obvious how the design would change in order to direct people going straight in other words you know do you group a couple of stores that are in the back I was kind of with an arrow going straight and then the other ones with arrows going left um but you know we we'd sort of have to look at it to feel I I'd have to look at it to feel really comfortable that it was clear and you know met that site planning needs I think as it relates I don't know if it's appropriate if I respond or not but I think if it's if it relates to this sign David that you're talking about you know PE this this entrance you come into a a slight T so I think the left and the right still make some sense and so we would look at the messaging of this and maybe to your point we would group a few few retailers these four you go right these four you go left uh where we come up with some other really nice way to do it but but it's it's a it's not a wide enough sign to do it in the way that you have done it on D2 so even that's challenging if you want to have I think you right and left yeah um so I mean you could I think it needs it needs some real thought I can see that you might you know right justify that's what I was thinking establishment to go left justify for the right arrows I mean I don't know but I don't think we can design it on the Fly can unforunately but it but it is a really it needs to be redesigned and yeah um and I I'll I don't mean to get an answer for this right this minute but uh one issue that was raised earlier was basically the the font size or the you know the size of the lettering and how many um establishment you know store names might be on on each side whether it's you know six or eight or 10 but not 12 and I don't know what the um best practice industry standard or whatever I'm sure there are such things but uh it it would be helpful we could establish some kind of minimum letter size or something it would make me feel better about you know down the road not having a sign that's got so many store names on it that you just can't read them and maybe that would you know help Eden as well in negotiating uh to to have that you know limit imposed so um well I don't know whether it would help them or not but my point is to for to make them really clear and legible for for patrons um Julie capoli sorry this is off the different from the font issue I just wanted to know about materials and maintenance um you know what I maybe I missed that but are they they what are they made out of um all of the signs yeah uh most all the signs are metal so all the retailer signs are are metal um they're all Channel letters uh aluminum mostly and then the um site signs same thing they'd be aluminum in a metal cabinet if you will and then they would sit on a stone or a brick base um there'd be some posts um pings in the ground um to secure them but mostly you know high quality very durable um I'd say Rich materials um we want the signs to look beautiful at the end of the day and mimic the new look of the shopping center and then maintenance we would obviously you know take care of these signs and clean them appropriately we'd repair them you know God forbid if if it was hit or damaged in any way we'd obviously repair them uh and keep them up okay thanks you're very welcome I'm to put that um so unless there are any further questions right now let's let's see the rest of your slides and hear the rest of what you have to say Mr Leeming thank you and believe it or not I think I was at the end Yep this the sight sign was the last sort of package here so you all jumped in right at the right time okay um okay thank you any other questions then for Mr leing before we move on to Mr Dar I I'm sorry I do have one more question sure yes go ahead which is about the D3 sign um it's not clear to me which way it's oriented sure um you know Ryan I know you had talked about it just sort of being to help people know to continue on uh it it also is very close to what we hope will be a rear entrance to the shopping center so that would suggest possibly a different orientation I just I I want to know if you have a sense of how that sign would be oriented and whether it be um well yeah I'll let you respond to that yeah sure so when we looked at the site W finding sort of program here um we tried to not add too many signs you know we didn't want to have a lot of them but we did feel like folks coming in Valley Road taking that left driving around at some point they might need a they're new to the shopping center they might need a reminder you know keep going for Ace Hardware keep going um for whomever so that that was the original intent when we started this you know we did start thinking about this about a year ago um so that that was the intent David um I think to your inquiry it may it may work could work either way but that was our intent when we started this conversation was just giving people a reminder you know keep going and having some more tenant identification yeah I guess I I if that's really the only intent I sort of feel like it's not in the right location because virtually all of the traffic for the rear tenants actually wants to come down directly alongside the building that's that one oneway drive that that hugs buildings B and C yeah and so you know if I were placing a sign that was just intended to help people who had come in at Valley Road to know how to get to their ultimate destination I would put a sign telling you know at the end of that drive um you know telling them to turn right here instead of something further on kind of floating um in in no man's land that I I think wouldn't necessarily be the the right place for a a sort of sign to indicate you're still you're still going the right way or um anyway inter interesting Counterpoint I I totally agree with that and certainly the the way I get back there to Ace or or any of the other places back there um I think it is the way most people yeah I agree with that too circulate and very interesting and when but when that road is there you know connecting the parking lot with trune one could argue a directional sign would be uh worthwhile having there as well so I but that would be more like sign type D2 and that direct people in two different direction oriented totally differently yeah correct right so um couple of other questions um uh first Mr odonnell Owen odonnell and then Claudia Wilson Anderson thanks Mr leming uh is the D1 sign the only sign that's going to be internally illuminated or are we talking D2 and D3 as well no just this what we're calling the the sort of the large identification sign this is the only illuminated sign that's the only illuminated sign okay thank you very much um and what do you do you expect for the illumination to be on all night long or what what kind of timing do you you expect no um so signs at the shopping center the signage of the shopping center goes on about I want to say somewh around mid or it goes on around Sundown so I think they start coming on around 400 PM is now um and they stay on I think our latest retailer closes about 10 p.m. and so they stay on for a few hours after that and they go off between midnight around midnight between midnight 1:00 a.m. um and then they stay off and then we have um some retailers opening as early as 6: a.m. so they start to come on around that time um about you know sunup and then they or I'm sorry just before Sun up and then they go off a few hours later around 8 in the morning when the when the Sun is up so those are the approximate you know Lighting hours for signs at the center we'd follow the same program okay and not be on all night um Claudia yes thank you madam chair I I want to say first of all I think it looks beautiful what you're doing a lot nicer it kind of has a southern Florida feeling to it as the Outdoor Center and it it's it's nice um so as a resident that recently moved back here um I remember the old days and um this is a vast Improvement u in terms of traffic flow we haven't talked about stop signs or exit signs but I know coming in the Valley Road exit it gets a little bit confusing with cars turning and signage saying you're not going to stop or somebody is stopping um with the new traffic flow have you reconsidered anything as it relates to yield signs traffic um stop signs or exit signs um thank you for the kind words and quick answer to your question as part of this application and what we presed here we did not think about any of that um but that's not to say we can't or work with the the right folks in town to to look at that separately um but we did not we didn't study anything related to those types of signs as part of this application um thank you I have a follow-up question to that but for later on um Justin leco and then Alvin Macwan yes thank you madam chair uh one thing that I did not mention earlier um that some of the board members probably know um and and Eden certainly knows is that the municipality has engaged a consultant to look at our Municipal signage um to consolidate the township and the bureau and just to modernize our signage practices in general um now you know I almost hesitate to bring that up because we're so early in that process that we truly don't know uh what it's going to lead to you know what types of signs you know these any of these signs for example they all might be allowed they all might be prohibited they might not be addressed and we'd be in the exact same place we are now um so I I don't want to you know necessarily defer to that um just off the bat um when you're making your decision on on these applications or on these separate signs but I do bring that up to say that there's clearly a Time aspect for the facade signs um like I said before some stores have sign right now others next door that are doing business either don't have signs or they have temporary ones um so clearly there's a a timing those can't wait necessarily for the end of uh you know until that study um or at least it would be a practical difficulty if they did um when it comes to the other signs though the directional ones or the identification one um those do not necessarily have that same timing uh concern so I would just uh you know offer up to the board to keep that in mind uh after we hear from the planner and and when we're discussing later right thanks Justin Alvin just by way of comment um after listening to the question from Miss Wilson Anderson and the question of whether uh there's been any consider consideration of traffic flow particularly by Valley Road um you do realize there is a sign there now that says income traffic doesn't stop correct and you know so I don't I mean there has to be some some I would think adjustment made made it made it that interest if you have something so that was my comment there um if I may and I'm going to pull my screen back up I was actually looking at our style guide versus the he made me curious about the princeon univ font so I was going down going down a rabbit hole on that one um I me go back to this um I unfortunately have some I'm not a traffic engineer I don't swear to be but I unfortunately have some experience with this at other other properties that we own and this entrance is very short um and so I don't know what we can't do there without you know a much bigger study or type of thing um so that was what I meant you know by my comment of right with this application we didn't look at that we're not looking at that as part of this um it is a very short approach coming into the shopping center which is probably why when the shopping center was built or way before we got we owned the shopping center there was some city engineer traffic engineer Etc that said you actually can't have a stop sign here because it will then back up into the intersection so there's probably a reason why that was done that's I'm not an expert on that but I think I have a little bit of experience there so that's that's probably why that condition exists less than ideal but probably the best of the available Alternatives yeah um so we are there any other questions for Mr Leeming before we move on okay um thank you Ryan Leeming appreciate it um don't go anywhere I'm here uh so Mr there you go Mr dowy um we should qualify you first Mr laia yes uh so Mr let's begin by having you uh tell the board your educational professional qualifications please certainly uh my education at a rocker SCH scene with a Masters in City Regional planning a concentration development Redevelopment certification and public policy um my license are good and current PP as well as aicp I testify as capacity on a weekly and daily basis I've actually testified um before this board I believe last year um I testify uh always been accepted as a professional I work with APA New Jersey as a professional development officer present at the league of municipality State Redevelopment conference um and um actually just uh was announced the distinguished merging planner for 2024 with the APA i h for Mr DH as an expert in land use planning congratulations um we we accept your qualifications so Mr Dy uh please uh provide your your views on whether we have met the criteria for the grant of the the vences being Sol as part of this application certainly um I do want to just mention um I think Mr liing really uh did a thorough job really walking uh everyone through the the sign it does sound uh like a lot of relief uh on paper um you because there is substantial amount of signage um and and the intricate details of the sign uh ordinance here uh for purposes of this application um as many of uh of us know it's one tax Lop block um 7401 lock uh 1.011 it's a little over 23 Acres um it's been developed as a shopping center since 1954 um as as um everyone knows and in the the intro um you know there is there's a a big push to revitalize this um so we have a lot happening here um you know the site contains multiple buildings including the new Avalon 200 unit project um that's coming along nicely and the site as as you know we just were discussing has undergone significant facade Renovations in accordance with the uh 2021 and 2023 approvals um so we're kind of uh you know circling back to that uh the overall upgrade and renovation of the site um you know when we look at the plan uh for what we're here for tonight the plan is simply four signs as we discussed there's 24 uh facade signs we have three directory signs one identification sign and the facade improvements uh um approvals required um you know to remove and replace the signs um as as Mr Leeming kind of really walked through there's been a very thoughtful approach to these facade signs that kind of strike a balance uh you know with the overall Aesthetics and continuity of the site um as we as you know we discussed the facade signs we're we're asking for um uh over 35% of the store Frontage and you when we look at that what otherwise would be happening here some signs would be fairly larger where some would be smaller and you know what what we're proposing here though asking for Relief really does kind of draw that uh you know seamless uh uh continuity and visual appeal um throughout the shopping complex and Center here so we are seeking some relief for that that uh 35% of store Frontage and and as we discussed just a moment ago though some of the signs could be larger we are in some areas uh you know um under that 35 uh% allow percent here for some of these signs again we're looking for cohesion and continuity uh throughout the shopping center for that that that identity and sense of place uh we are seeking directory signs for the quantity um we have four existing plus four proposed so we have eight um you know and we really look at this for safety and and wayf finding directory sign area as we discussed early on ranging from 27 square feet to 96 square feet what's permitted is the eight square feet um when we look at this as we just saw in great detail uh it's to list multiple tenants um and and you know have that um availability uh for the directory signs um the directory sign height eight versus five permitted really when we look at this um it's for safety visibility it's not really um uh provided for a decorative based uh directory signs as much as the building facades are more of a decorative feature um these are really uh directory signs so we're asking for that height um we have identification sign and the quantity we have two existing we're proposing an additional uh so we would total have three on site versus the one permitted uh when we look at the identification sign to provide uh roadside uh recognition for the tenants many of which are not visible as we as we discussed and we're familiar with the site there's the courtyard there buildings behind buildings um so we are asking for an additional identification sign and um when we look at the existing signs you know really at entry points of the shopping center um but they don't really identify the tenants so we're asking for that uh purpose as well uh the identification sign uh as we discussed is is um internally uh lit only the letters are internally illuminated not the panel as we discuss uh the goal here is really to make it look uh nice seamless and and have that that aesthetic appeal um when we look at the sign relief as as we've been going through it from a planning standpoint this type of relief here is is what we refer to as a lower tier relief it's that flexible C uh C2 balancing test for a better zoning alternative um the benefits of the application uh as a whole which substantially um they outweigh the detriments here which is what refer to as a polling case I do want to make reference that when we talk about the Zone the SC uh Shopping Center District you know the master plan really has called out the 23 master plan for the economic element specifically references shopping center and says you know for the revitalizing the shopping center is a top economic priority here um so you know this is really what that effort is uh to revitalize that uh and the land use constantly changes shopping centers and I think uh you know um we we've done a good job to recognize the the the issues with with shopping centers malls and the likes of that from the do com Booms to uh um covid you know these centers and and amenities and Retail centers have really taken hit across the state across the country um from a planning standpoint putting that population the Avalon project there would certainly help to keep uh the center viable um but certainly the upgrades the facade and the sign overall package given a fresh look certainly would help in in in aiding in that and keeping it competitive and that and that sense of place for the community um when we look at this project overall the packages and the sign um the project benefits again as a whole um we believe would promote purpose a the Miss L use law the project as a whole promotes the general welfare because it entails upgrades and renovation to the shopping center and really is spoton with the uh the master plan objective to help the center and I quote become a thriving commercial hub for the growing residential community of the area good sign good signage is essential to ensure uh effective retail viability of the center and have that that competitive uh Edge and and fresh look for the the tenants uh in the building we have purpose G the project promotes the plan goal provide variety uses and appropriate locations because the entire sign package as we just saw is is tasteful cohesive and provides uh efficient uh unifying elements uh to the site along with added safety way uh way finding and uh visibility uh certainly we can look at that as providing for a variety of uses again you know with the tenants uh and potential tenants to come in the future for the site certainly my favorite here and I think uh many of us can certainly agree purpose ey for the project uh and design package PR mostes design desirable visual environment uh the entire sign package is tasteful classy as Mr Leman uh said intimate um you know certainly I think we advance purpose eye for desirable visual environment it really does evoke a positive aesthetic and cohesive image and identity of the of the shopping center and the master plan says that building and store funds look tired and they need an updating so these sign package will certainly help to do that here uh purpose M for the municipal land use law promote their project promotes a planning goals for efficient use of land because all the sign both building ground signs um are will integrate nicely into the site and the structures that are on the site and really help kind of tie in and put the the the bow on the the extensive renovation projects that have been happening here at the shopping center when we look at the potential detriments here with the sign package and the relief that we're seeking um it's my professional opinion that none other relief um if granted will create impacts of substantially adverse nature the V sign signs are below the 24t threshold that's shown in the table uh uh that we were just looking at before bad signs are uh proportional to the approved signs that are already there and I think that's really what we're looking for is to kind of have the proportional continuity identity we certainly don't want certain signs to be larger and some smaller it it becomes kind of in my opinion a um visually unattractive um and and you know kind of confusing um when we look at the overall directory signs they're really simp simply visual cues and and navigation that aids to the facility um sorry to facilitate free flow and traffic and as we just discussed there might be better locations and I think when we look at the overall land use procedure here it's that integrated process to kind of really strike that balance of of of of where and you know the board sees fit and and the professionals here so from a directory signs U and the cues for navigation um I think you know there might be some room as we just discussed a better location um you know or you know in our opinion you know the the location the location might work uh for the the the reopening of the road um when we look at the road signs they're not excessive given the extremely long Street Frontage this is a fairly large site again it's a little over 23 Acres um in the frontage of the center uh when we look at the the relief itself um I don't believe the Zone U The Zone plan will be impaired with the sign project um it certainly is in line with the goals intent of the master plan for this site and the shopping center um and as as your planner just testified to uh mentioned I'm sorry you know there is a potential for a an overhaul on the overall sign um package with within the community um so I certainly don't believe this this site this sign package here impairs that I think it really does strike a balance with what the master plan is calling out for for the shopping center and as we just saw it really does you know kind of tie everything in here the application really uh when we look at it is simply for signage that will continue this positive transformation to the site um when we look at the relief that C2 balancing of the benefits substantially outweigh the detriments here a better zoning alternative I think we can confidently say that this site is unique there's a lot going on here and certainly the signs are a a critical component to this overall shopping center um and I certainly think that uh when we look at this the relief is is a positive with little to no detriment um and the statutory uh criteria for Relief would would be met and approval would otherwise be warranted um again I just want to just emphasize that you know we're here for what otherwise be sign sign relief for a complete overhaul and and upgrade of the shopping center so we're trying to strike that balance and and you know with the the board's recommendations and and in the interactive process I think we can certainly do that um but with relation to that facade signage particularly because there's 24 of them we are trying to strike a cohesive balance so some of those relief um though the frontage is small it is proportional with the overall site and identity continuity I think that's really important when we look at that um with that I'll stop open for any cross or comments concerns or questions thank you um David coh excuse me m chair just want to correct a couple facts in terms of the directory signs we're seeking three additional directory signs so for a total of seven on the site and in terms of the height of those signs we're proposing six feet and the ordinance uh allows up to five so that's the extent of of the parents no problem okay speak for one just for one of them Tom Right excuse me the one on street is one yes Mr Cohen yeah I a question I think this is for staff um whether our sign ordinance has specific Provisions for the shopping center as a sort of unique um facility in the in the municipality or uh whether the shopping center signs are just governed by General commercial sign requirements uh in the former Township I don't remember if it's a Derek yeah there is thank you madam chair um there is a specific section um there's three categories um as of right I think which gives you four square feet of a maximum sign and again it's based on our percentage of the facade then there's a a middle category which gets you up to like six feet and then or8 feet and then there's the design review category which requires a site plan which staff utilizes an administrative waiver process to do that so um I'm just going to say that it's overly complicated and burdensome and I'm happy that the town is looking at redesigning the existing signage codes and uh hopefully it'll help everyone out so I can attest yes it's burdensome so so just to be double triple clear there is not a separate set of criteria for the shopping center Zone uh there is specific section in the table of uh for the shopping center as there is for all zones um the um but it has the same it relates to there it is specific to that because it relates to an identification sign they get 64 square feet and they get the three facade signs and there's free standing signs which really don't work with their uh layout so it is kind of specific um to that okay the the reason I'm asking this question um you know is that this board actually got in a little bit of trouble a couple of years ago for granting variances because we thought the ordinance was bad um you know we're we're supposed to base variances on the planning proofs um and we're supposed to work with the existing ordinance not try to rewrite it ourselves and th this relates to the comment that Justin made you know about whether to wait um you know for the resoning but I I first of all I want to say I think I'm 100% in support of the facade sign variances I think the r Al is perfect and they look great and I also like the design of the other signs although I have qu some of the questions about placement and you know specific things but I I just you know we could talk about the if if the shopping center didn't have its own unique set of regulation sign regulations we could say well it's different than all the other commercial properties in the former Township and that's the basis for making variances having to do with the directory sign but I've got to believe that when the ordinance was written for directory signs and it was focused on pedestrian directory signs not vehicular ones that there was an intention behind that for the the council that passed those ordinances and I'm just a little worried and maybe J you want to comment on this but that we're on a a little bit of a slippery slope by granting those variances the directory signs and the and the number of ID signs because we do have several ID signs yeah I I'm not concerned about it I think it's really so different from that um case that you appropriately pointed out to um David where we would just went out of our way um the basically approve something which is was a significant change from what the zoning permitted here in signage variances are granted all the time um I I don't think it's a problem certainly for the facade science for the project identification signs and sign and a directory signs there's a little bit more of a concern but I I think the board is well within its uh Power to to approve them if it so choose okay and Madam CH if I might jum in yeah please Justin go ahead thank you thank you and I certainly agree with our board attorney um I also agree with um many of the things that councilman Cohen said so I might just be jumping the gun a little here um and Jerry again Feel Free as always uh jump in if if you disagree or want to clarify anything but we did actually we instructed the um uh Edens to come in with all the signs in one application um so that is certainly you know we instructed them to do that that being said part of the reason was uh because your options as a board really are you know you can approve outright you could deny outright um but you can also approve some variances but not all uh which would effectively approve some signs but not others um and then obviously the fourth option is also to approve you know with conditions uh which is you know more so what what normally happens um that being said uh you know the way I look at this application is is somewhat differently than the way Mr doy testified to where I I don't see it all as as one thing you know I broke it up into the three signs uh three types of signs buckets if you will um because uh you know I think they are three very different things with you know different arguments to the positive and the negative some stronger than others um in addition to those outside factors like I mentioned earlier of uh you know end in my report of should there be an ordinance fix on some of these signs rather than a zoning uh you know a variance fix on some of the others so um I think when you you know it sounds like we're you know we obviously s public comment and and maybe some more uh questions um but when the board does decide to start uh discussing which way they they might go on this um just keep in mind those four Pathways yeah and if I could jump in I I agree with everything that uh that Justin said uh but we we do have to look separately at the facade signs the monument sign which raises questions because of where it's proposed to be located in the place um where there always traffic uh difficulties um and the the directory science and David I think you're it's probably right that this was a the concept back in the day was this was for pedestrians but it seems to me it's capacious enough that it could include uh V vehicular uh um sign signage for vehicles rather than pedestrians um but again that's that's that's a choice I think you have certainly much more flexibility with respect to the um the directory signs and the the monument sign so I'll just make one more comment which is um in terms of the internal the internal illumination of the uh ID sign I think that is the most tasteful um I I like I'm G to call it a silhouette sign you know where it's not a a bright illuminated panel with dark lettering on it but rather it's a an opaque panel with um just the letters being eliminated I think for you know we want to keep the size of the sign down a little bit that means the font is small that means you can't do Halo illumination right I think this is the next best design alternative I think it uh you know or it's the best design alternative given the criteria that I would like to see you know applied to that sign so I do think you know with all the comments that I had earlier about the directory sign plac and and uh graphic design for communication of what we want to communicate I'm not ready to approve them tonight um but you know because I think we need to see um the the redesign and and the additional information but I'm uh I'm very comfortable with the facade signs and and in general I like the other signs I just wanted to be sure we weren't uh treading on th ice right can can I make a suggestion in terms of that issue again if the board is willing to Grant the variances for the directory signs and the ID sign is perhaps um you can establish a committee with staff to review those the uh final plans uh for those signs and then we could as well as the location because obviously there's opin different opinions about where those signs should be located that might be another way to approach that instead of us having to come back to the full board that's all I but if you you want us to come to back to the full board with with more information on those we can do it but it's like um it's trying to design by committee you know we we throw out a design and then you're GNA say you know well do this or do that it's kind of it's tough to work and work under those conditions that's all understood um sometimes the landscape committee veers into a little bit into the signage and circulation realm I'm wondering if the if the committee itself and the board and our attorney and planner would be comfortable with um the landscape committee looking at the directional signage not the not the other not the ID signage I I don't think I personally would I'd be more comfortable with it coming back to the board because if was a committee I think we probably have as part of a condition relating to the committee that if there can't be an agreement it's going to come back to the board uh anyway and uh I think the board should be looking at that um Pa thanks thanks Jerry PA I'm sorry Justin you first and then pie go ahead yeah Y and I would agree with Jerry on that with the only exception being if the board was able to come to some sort of consensus tonight on just about everything but one thing um related to those signs so uh and I'm not sure if the board's going to be able to do that so um you know right I would kind of agree with Jerry again okay all right good um poie um I just wanted to clarify the um which signs would be lighted and which are not lighted so the facade signs above the retailers um are are backlit that correct Hal the directory signs are not lit correct correct so if if someone is driving around at night they don't have very good visibility for those directional signs well we would use what in the what was it's use uh we would use what's called um I'm gonna mess it up it's a it's a type of lettering that's high contrast so it's actually somewhat visible if there's ambient light right this shopping center lights are on and the shopping center is very well lit um it's not meant to be they're not meant to be internally illuminated signs they're meant to be simple not confusing so if there's ambient light the vinyl and the the type of decal and the type of coloring of the letter is meant to like almost reflect a little bit I don't mean reflect in the sense of reflect but it's almost meant to like pick up ambient light and contrast against that so um we use it commonly in a lot of shopping centers and we sort of often get into this conversation where someone's like well should we just illuminate it and it's like we can but there's no power nearby and it means XYZ and this and this so all right let's go with the with the sort of the it's again it's not called reflective vinyl I'm I'm blanking on the industry term we I think the main thing there is just to consider in addition to exactly the directions that are printed on the sign the location with regard to any ambient lighting and glare um just to make it uh the other question is with regard to the lighting on the shopping center and Retail or identification signs are you is the current sign that's there at the corner of Valley in Harrison lit it's externally illuminated like a externally so there yeah there's a few signs down low that shine up um and illuminate the sign okay and so are you proposing to replace that with something that's internally lit the existing sinet Valley Road yes um yeah actually we are thinking about uh maintaining the size and characteristics of that sign and in upgrading it but not um you know not changing the height in any way or the size of it in any way just just upgrading upgrading it kind of fitting within the existing sign that that works there I guess I'm asking because my other concern is just um the glare from those signs on Harrison Road um for people who may be across the street I I'm not sure if there's any residences or if those are just Office Buildings across the street um res there small I think there's a small office building on the corner I don't the road I'm blanking on but I think Justin mentioned it in his opening statement for that existing shopping center sign it's the office building there are no residences across from that keep in mind one point to that to to clarify and you probably couldn't see it on the plan I had on screen because I had a big dot showing the location but in the in the application materials that sign is perpendicular to North Harrison so the any light would be going sort of up and down North Harrison it wouldn't be shining outwards towards the street okay okay the other thing too to mention for the board's benefit the um materiality of that sign I I apologize um Julie I didn't mention it when you asked me about materials um but the sign names thems we're actually going to utilize What's called the day night acrylic so it's actually an acrylic that um is a little bit tinted so during the day it reads black and then at night it would glow but it would still have like a a little bit of a tint on it so the light wouldn't be it wouldn't be as if the light was shining through glass so to say it would filter the light a little bit and that helps that helps with glare that helps with reflectiveness that just helps tone it down a little bit yeah thank you for mentioning that sure uh Mr Cohen yeah I just wanted to make one more comment about the um directory signs which is that I do find the planning testimony that they're going to enhance safety as a real thing I I was just at the shopping center today trying to leave and I had incoming traffic that couldn't decide which lane to be in because they didn't know whether they wanted to turn right or left I think that's a common thing and I think that having this directory signage will be a big safety upgrade and so um I just wanted to get that on the record in terms of supporting that variance um I agree with that and I one thing that just um I keep coming back to in my head and I know that this is not well it's part of what we're dealing with tonight what I'm thinking about is the the usefulness of this sign not only these signs not only for people in cars but also for people on foot and on bikes um and um it won't be too long in the future when there will be so many more visitors to this uh Center you know some who live right right there or you know the next lot over or across tune who will be on foot or on bike and um including kids and older people and um so just having you know seen the signs the directional signs and the facade signs I feel like they all will be useful for uh um you know beyond just for drivers but I also feel like it won't be long before um the town I don't know this would whether this would come back to the board or not but before someone needs to be looking at a very comprehensive set of um uh you know crosswalks and signage and other things that make this Center and you know this residential Hub as well TR truly safe and appealing for pedestrians and bikes so I guess I'm throwing that out there because I I I ex I I don't know whether that work will come back to our board and if it does maybe um you know know one of the signs that's on tonight's the the um illuminated sign maybe you know comes back with that or whether all of that other planning for Mobility is Will um be dealt with administratively Justin can you help me with that or sure Dan yep certainly um as was mentioned before um uh I think by pvy uh our engineering department is working on that study um of all the way from the canal up to where North Harrison Forks over to uing yeah but that's just on Harrison Street right that's just on Harrison I'm talking about internal to the shopping center and between it and I'm sorry I cut you off before you finish no no please please clarify but I definitely mean like that within the shopping center uh and and the connections between the shopping center and the and the obvious you know bike and ped um I mean of course people come down Valley Road and and Harrison and trune uh already but once um the Alice and Avalon and um well both Avalons and pearl are all fully open and occupied I just anticipate you know way more um you know in a good way uh so you know circulation and business happening in this um in this Center and I just want to understand when the work that makes that looks carefully at those various types of mobility and how to make it how to retrofit what's there and [Music] um and design the intersections that aren't in place yet um specifically the the new road connecting with the parking lot you know how all of that work is who's going to be doing all of that work does it come back to the board is it something that we should be keeping in mind in any way when we're looking at the um directional signage or the ID signs the short answer to that question is is no um because everything would be speculative at this time uh anything that were to change on the shopping center property would come back to the board most likely um you know as an application for development uh if it were you know any major thing any new rerouting the road to make a new building or anything like that um it's a unique property in the sense that you know there's uh the SC Zone on it um it's not like a you know there's 50 Parcels or hundreds of parcels or anything like that that the zoning is almost unique to this one parcel or or one or two Parcels now um but as we all know the underlying zoning is limiting just in terms of design um what is not limiting or I should say is less limiting is that there still is an area in need of Redevelopment designation over the whole Center um and as we know from some of the other Redevelopment plans in town going back to you know Hines Plaza um and those buildings uh there's a lot more leeway in a discussion with a developer uh and the town to make changes uh you know kind of physical changes uh in an area you know under an area need of Redevelopment with a Redevelopment plan now that being said there are you know that's not being discussed right now um so that's why I say it's just kind of speculative but that area in need of Redevelopment is there um Redevelopment plan is certainly not there right now for you know basically anything on the shopping center outside of the Avalon building that's already being built okay and and L if I could just follow up on what you said um if there's something that could be done to establish crosswalks especially on the West Side uh um of the shopping center and the road right next to to the shopping center I mean there are people crossing between cars all the time they're frequently they they're watching their um phones and it's really dangerous um and I don't know what could be done I don't know if anything could be done about it but certainly we're we're thinking about yeah and ju Justin can you talk at all or maybe anybody else who has a sense of this um the the time frame for finishing the study of Harrison and what changes might be um when we might know that which could which could be helpful in the talking about the illuminated sign David I believe there's a presentation to Council on Monday wow [Laughter] okay you might want to come to that Mr Leeming I was gonna ask is it I'm it's public is it public I assume it is HD yeah yep oh that's um that's good to know thank you um Mr D do you have any thoughts about the size of lettering on S on the directional signs any any like best practice you know safety Guided by by safety and not making people slow down and squint I will say um you know you can have fairly big letters um you know I think contrasts and and and legibility is is important you can have big letters but if the the contrast that isn't there you know doesn't matter how big they're going to be um if there's foliage that's growing higher there's a lot to it but for purposes of of um you know the the size and scale of the lettering um I I I would like to say that you know I do I do believe a committee would would help kind of you know flush that out really is hard to design things in the dark without you know and then having to come back and and and and do this uh you know we like it and enjoy it um that's why we're all here I will say um you know I'm not a traffic planner I would I would kind of you know um you know uh say that I do I do know Justin I went to school with him he he's he's a really good planner as you guys know um and there's a lot of good Consulting uh firms out there as well but um for purposes of of the site and the safety control um and and and and overall what was just discussed I think we have to look at this um holistic that you have an applicant the overall site it's it's near and dear to the community applicants able and willing we do have Grove Park right behind it residential safety is Paramount any Community um you know so from safety controls you know speed bumps you know uh you know crosswalk hatchings in that regards you know and you know I think there's a lot that can be done um and and I certainly think when we look at the applicant the overall site we certainly don't want the patrons to be uh Fe fearful or or you know feel like they're dodging cars in that regards um I I I would say confidently that you know you have a uh a center here an applicant that would certainly want to see the success and and and be loved by the community and with the increased population um when we see that we we typically see cars start to slow down because it's not really autod dominant and in in in that regards they do have to share uh with The Pedestrian so putting that population in here kind of having that uh um um anchor on both sides with with the with the residential and the park there I think you know when we look at this uh I think you're going to in good hands um you know with a lot of your concerns but visibility and signage is certainly important um it is a big site uh it's unique site as as was just discussed kind of has that Florida outside uh um campus feel to it um it it's Unique there's a lot of Direction you can go but for signage and sizing letters visibility is is key contrast illumination yeah and I I'm sorry to cut you off but I I I'm just talk for I think those signs showed uh was it s or 8 stores on a you know I um and if uh you know with with arrows pointing in each Direction I'm thinking of the one that was right at at Valley Road can we bring up the slide that's got um that sorry I don't want to it's a big time on this but just the the directional sign that has right and left arrows and yeah that one so there are six six stores on each side um you know I can see how we might permit seven but not eight I can see how we might per permit eight but not 12 I'm just uh I just want to make sure that we to I think a point that Mr Cohen brought up earlier that we aren't um approving an overall size of the sign and then risking sometime down you know down the road five or 10 years from there's so many and this would not be in The Shopping Center's interests obviously but there's so many uh stores identified that people just can't read and digest it you know quickly and it and so um you know Mr Leeming if you want to address that or if Mr Cohen if you have any thoughts about um uh that from an architectural perspective I'd be happy to hear that I just don't want it for for it to be for there to just be cart blanch to put as much on there as you could possibly fit uh be happy to address yeah and I I may have said it earlier if I didn't I apologize but on this D2 sign like this would should be our intent six and six this is if you think about the hierarchy and the size of the retailers at the center yeah um everyone listed here in the Suites you know I have V I just I have vacant Suites listed here because the size of those suets are such that it creates a hierarchy where it gives us it gives us a good threshold to say sorry but anyone over this square footage has rights to this sign okay and it and it and it and it works in a good way where you know McCaffrey's Ace Hardware like certain retailers are allowed to kind of go it directs people accordingly um because I think if we to your point I think if we were to start to think about how to put more names you know to accommodate too many folks then the sign does not work anymore right so you would be comfortable with the condition um that limits the number of establishments identified on these uh directional signs I mean if that's if that's something the board is is willing to throw out I mean I will say and just looking at the sign here again you know I centered there's six and six I I centered them here right so there's still a little bit of room on the sign you know what I mean so I think at the end of the day our intent was to show a signed design that we felt fits the character right and and it kind of fits within the the the language of the center and provides an opportunity for wayf finding for select retail you know not for everyone um because then that sign does not function or or be it gets way too large right it just becomes way too large um so Mr Leman with with respect to that sign this at the top here no the the one you were just referring yeah yeah a total of 14 that would be two more than shown um seven and seven yeah or eight and eight right because there's a little bit of white space here and white space here so it looks like the same letter height that we're depicting here roughly to scale would would fit that um you know but again i' I'd also be happy to to David's Point earlier I mean this one I don't think we're going to put a lot more thought into but the other two and sort of specifically pinpointing who's right who's left who's where who's straight Etc be happy to you know submit another revision back to this board or offline however you want to get you know however you want to handle that I'd be happy to do that and give a little bit more detail or if there's a condition or you know we won't you know it has to be reviewed again before installed Etc you know be happy to do that happy to happy to get these right yeah um but we're not sorry I'm talking forever but we're not looking to say you know we're showing you six and six and really we're going to put a sign up that is 20 and 20 or something like that just and that's exactly what I was trying to get at we'll we'll talk a little bit more about it I expect although I know we don't nobody wants to beat it to death M Mr Weissman and then Freddy pearlmutter and then Nat bodimer Dan thank you madam chair uh just to provide some clarification and this doesn't necessarily apply here just to provide some overall guidance Federal Highway Administration uh provides a manual for uniform traffic control devices it's it's really the guide for Designing road signs in there they have um uh requirements for lettering height for roadway signs um those are typically uh 6 in uh they may be reduced to 4 in um but 6 in is the typical height of a roadway sign lettering on a roadway sign so um on a height that's on a sign that's four feet tall six six inch lines would take up three feet of that four feet uh and wouldn't allow any spacing so uh it seems that six may be closer to the maximum that that you'd want to be looking for here um but just some some food for guidance or Food For Thought or anything like that okay thank you that's really helpful thanks um Freddy you're on mute um as we all know Tenants come and tenants go um how frequently do you upgrade these signs because they will change over time yep we would change them as if a tenant leaves they're off that sign and as a new tenant comes in that space that allows for access to that sign we would immediately replace um with that name and we would Design This assigned such that that interchange you know we could swap out if you will you know we we would want to make it pretty seamless okay great thank you Nat yeah uh I I wanted to shift the discussion please to just procedural and like and have a conversation about what's the path to getting resolution on this I mean I really feel like this is a I'm not I I not sure where we're going I mean I I I it sounds like there's conceptual approval with giving granting a variance it doesn't sound like anyone is prepared to Grant variance tonight on the basis of what's going on on account of the number of interrelated things that we've all been discussing but i' really like to discuss what's the process for bringing this back to the board so that we can uh we can take an action without litigating all of of these variables that that that that really seem to be um I mean ah I mean we can you know are we going to are we going to create you know a separate ordinance for a specific signage policy for this place so that we don't have to worry about implications for other signage are we gonna you know are we going to make the the signage conditional on the outcome of the of of the of of the traffic and circulation study are we going to what I mean what's what's the path forward well um thanks for um putting your finger on that I I I think I've heard multiple board members say and I certainly feel completely comfortable with the facade signage um proposed and the rationale um Etc um the concern with the directional signs uh there's one of them that is needs to be completely redesigned or substantially or substantially redesigned in order to direct people not in Just One Direction but in two and uh and the outlier to me is is the um the sign out by the street but I the illuminated sign by by out by the street but I could be wrong about that so um so there are multiple paths forward to answer your question um Nat I think and um I don't want to um I'm gonna stop and let David talk for a minute thanks I mean what I would like to suggest the way I would like to see it move forward if possible is to bifurcate it and to approve the facade signs tonight so that Edens can go ahead and start finishing up the facades and I would like for the the other four signs the three directory signs and the ID sign to come back with redesign is necessary to address comments that were made um maybe with some expert testimony about what the right size of the lettering minimum size of the lettering should be although uh Mr Weissman gave us I think some good information about that but if you know if um if the applicant wants to have more flexibility than what 6-inch lettering would indicate I would want them to come with some expert testimony about speed which these cars are going to be driving and thereby you know thereby what the appropriate lettering might be it might be less than six if uh if an expert could indicate that so I think there are a lot of question questions that need to be addressed with those four signs so that's how I'd like to move forward and not to wait for the traffic study net I think the whole question of circulation um is really premature to address at this point um the applicant hasn't been thinking about it they're not proposing doing anything about it right now and I think that's appropriate to exclude from our discussion if and when they want to come back to us with some suggestions for um you know Traffic Safety pedestrian safety bicycle safety improvements we'll consider those when they come with them but it shouldn't muddy the waters here yeah makes sense to me um any other comments from board members before we hear from the public because I would like to make sure that that happens Lise could I just jump in with another bit of information that I think they should come back with on directory signs I I think um py made a very good point about the visibility of them at night and obviously there was testimony by Mr Le Leeming uh that given the material that's worked on the am that's in the the lettering that it'll pick up sufficient ambient light that you'll be able to see them but I like to I like to see how that looks um because I think that's an important question and before we move on to the public Madam chair um I just want to check with Jerry and perhaps Tom as well logistically and legally do you think we would be okay if a board member made the motion after public comment that uh councilman Cohen did of bifurcating the application I think that could be done what what's the uh the timing on on this when does it the timeout uh I don't have timeout is January 23d 2025 okay we want to make sure that um if the motion by Mr Cohen something along those lines is approved um that we get whatever extensions um we need from the from the applicant course they'll be doing some kind of redesigning I'm not sure what of the directory signs and addressing in some fashion the uh the project identification sign but then we would get a bifurcated resolution um and the reason I ask is because uh you know when the applicant does come in for their building permits they would need to show approvals and um you know and I'm not saying this to to poo poo this idea but uh you know again just logistically I wouldn't want there to be any issues yeah in effect it would be that would be that the uh if if the board acts along the lines that David was suggesting the facade signs would be approved and decision on the others would be deferred pending further yeah I would agree with that approach and on the issue of the facade signs as we've said a number of times we're very anxious to have those installed and I'm hoping that the board would be willing to allow us to apply for permits assuming we get approval tonight and we don't have to wait for the resolution to be adopted as long as as long as Derek and Dan are comfortable with that we'd like to move forward very quickly in submitting for permits we if that's okay that's and and what we've done Tom occasionally in circumstances where there's some urgency um with moving ahead is I I just draft a letter for right to the board approved Bank the resol will be adopted okay we would appreciate that okay um so there are four members of the public um in the uh attendees room as it were um any of you members of the public who would like to address the board um who would like to speak uh please raise your hand right now by clicking on the raise hand icon I'm not seeing any hands go up um nobody wants to oh going once going twice okay no no interest in members uh on the part of members of the public to address the board so I'll close the public comment portion of the meeting and um I guess I would ask you well first invite um any final comments from board members maybe specifically to um weigh in on David's uh suggestion of bifurcating um this application moving ahead um allowing a um expedited um progress on the facade signage and uh deferring the other things for a bit later after more work is done Mr odonnell thank you um I agree with uh with David's proposal uh I think that the the facade signage you know is a no-brainer uh I must say that I'm a little uncomfortable with the illuminated sign only because the ordinance specifically forbids it uh I know that's the the idea of a a variance but we have uh rejected other requests for illuminated signs in the past uh based on based on the ordinance itself and I don't understand why this is so significantly different so that's just a a matter for deliberation among the board and I'd be happy to hear anybody's comments on that well since that's part of what would be deferred um I mean we could discuss it tonight or we could just make that note for the applicant and maybe they maybe the illuminated sign will look a little different coming back or they could offer a specific testimony about why it's uh so special and and so needed um I'm not trying to shut down that conversation I just think that we move ahead with David's suggestion we wouldn't it would not be part of tonight's uh approval right Mr Cohen um just wanted to respond to Owen um and say that um I think a lot of I think the concept of an illuminated sign um there's a lot there are a lot of things that are envision the ordinance you know neon signs right um you know white plastic panels with dark lettering on them like the Bottle King sign for instance I hope everybody you know remembers that debacle I don't know how we got I don't know how we gave them the variances we gave them but you know those are the sort of tacky illuminated signs that I think the ordinance is trying to address and the comment that I had made and we've heard this I think once before maybe with the um Assisted Living place on um uh on Mount Lucas and I think we did permit it actually is that these kinds of signs with only the lettering being illuminated it's sort of a dark background and the the material where the light is coming through has a filtering effect so it's not it's not a bright light um it's a pretty subtle uh kind of internally illuminated sign that I personally don't think the is what the and I think it's kind of newish Technology because if you look at that sign the lettering is actually dark during the day and then somehow it's transparent or translucent enough that it's light at night that may actually be new to technology that wasn't even in existence when the ordinance was written so I'm just giving you uh what I hope is um not that we have to consider it tonight as Louise pointed out rightly um but for when we do consider it I think that this is a subtle uh tasteful kind of lighting um even though it is intern internally illuminated and and you know to your point it it would be very helpful and other people have made this point too to know what does it look like during the day and how how exactly does it present at night because I can see how it could be actually less light than if you've got lights on the ground shining up at it you know it's less it's less bright it's less uh distracting and and more um readable so um Mr Leeming I see your hand up but I want to find if I want to ask if there are other board comments um before I'm not seeing any hands go up okay Ryan um thank you appreciate all the comments tonight I know there was a lot of discussion I just in my mind wanted to maybe make a couple comments and then just make sure I understood everything clearly um one of the other things we didn't necessarily talk about tonight which I think it was sort of said but unsaid is that in you know relation to the master plan right the the the economic health and viability and vitality the shopping center is is at utmost importance right it's at utmost importance to Edens as well um covid was very difficult for the shopping center um which is a lot of the reasons why you know Redevelopment plan was thought of um you know I didn't necessarily work on that plan but that was thought of right as a way to really Infuse some some development into this place and I think coming out of of Co we're out of Co now um in in talking about a year ago and we started thinking about this facade project um a lot of our retailers at weather the storm are starting to have some of their best Years yet right and we're starting to see new customers coming to the shopping center there's new folks and so I think all the comments David especially on the wayfinding signs cleaning up the messaging making sure the arrows are right I mean fair right we we showed sort of a conceptual messaging scheme to to maybe give the idea and in hindsight probably what we should have done is we probably should have came in and said no this is exactly what you're getting rather than say hey it might be like this this is exactly what it's going to be right these are the exact way the arrows are going to go these are the exact amount of tenants these are the size of the letters etc etc um so shame on us uh for that I think for the illuminated sign I don't know if I heard a lot of like true comments on it and I was trying to figure out what the the maybe the issue with it I know I heard a lot about traffic I heard a lot about the the the corridor study and I was just trying to figure out like what's the what do we think the the issues if if that we might need to address with that I think you know finding some real world examples of how signs like that might look fair to you know totally fair and I think in some of the reference materials um we didn't find one right we didn't find one in Princeton um that it's exactly this way and I think that was our intent because the shopping center in our mind is such a special place that it should have this sort of unique new fresh um yes Cutting Edge technology David um I didn't know what day night acrylic was um typically what you do is you have a panel that you put a vinyl sticker on and that vinyl sticker acts as your day night so it's called day night vinyl this is actually an all-encompassing material that gives you the same effect that you don't have to fuse two materials together so we're working with a local sign shop and they brought that to our attention they said hey we've never made a sign with day night acrylic before for but we love this sign and we think this sign could be so special it's the perfect case study to really put this new new sign technology on display um so it will be you know filtered it will be muted lighting um if you will and only the letters will glow so we're really excited about that so I just wanted to make sure I have it all kind of right and I and I know if if the board wants to move to come back and and comment that I just I kind of know my marching orders and I'm not sure I heard any big concerns other than um maybe you miss nukon kind of the location of that sign in relation to the entrance Mr Mr Mueller expressed a a thought about it too and and he's not a voting member of the of the board but um and I share that too that I think when you come back it would be helpful to not only have maybe testimony from the people who are making the sign uh or know this technology really well what exactly is it going to look like real life examples why that is the right the exact right location for it given the geometry the narrow driveway um the you know the parking directly on the driveway yeah yes thank you um and none of that may be and and how it won't you know block visibility for people leaving the the shopping center through that drive driveway um uh you know none of that is a is meant to be throwing cold water on the whole idea but just that I think we just really need to understand better the rationale for its exact location there and the and what it's going to look like because it's as Mr odonnell pointed out it's very it's unusual for us to allow you know minated signs and we need a belt and suspender sense of of comfort with it I think Mr Lesco and then pauka yes thank you madam chair I just want to add to that list another question that I had in my report um just how the sign works with the uh trees around it there are some uh small trees that it seems like it might be or not small I should say uh just not mature trees yet um it's unclear if there's be Landscaping it's unclear you know is the sign uh is a sign going to be right on one of them is it going to be between them um so that's just another thing I like to add to that list okay um yeah um and so just to you know I I share oh is Owen still there yeah yeah so I share Owen's concern about the sign the lighted sign overall another just quick question and I agree with David's suggestion that we bifurcate this and allow the shopping center to move ahead with the signage uh for the shops but um one quick clarification question is there a limit on the timing so I understand that um the hours that you typically turn the signs on and off is there anything in the ordinance uh in the municipal ordinances about how long lighted signs can be left lit at er I believe it's 11 o'clock and not needed for safety purposes okay thank you thank you uh and and just as a reminder though obviously if it uh if a variance is granted the board has a lot of leeway as to what the conditions might be so the timing might be one that you think about okay um so Mr Cohen do you want to frame a motion sure um I move that we approve the 24 variances for the facade mounted uh Merchant signs and that we um Carry um consideration of the uh remaining four signs to a later date I don't know if we want to if the applicant wants to propose a date certain and if Carrie has the calendar that she could um identify a date that would be appropriate uh but that that would be the motion basically and David um what specifically are we looking for with respect to the three directory signs what additional information we know there was that one where it was just wrong the arrow was in the wrong direction um but can you elaborate on that of all or it seems Ling has a good understanding of it I don't but yeah I I think um it was design of sign number one to show what it will look like with um direction for some um establishments to go straight while other establishments um would you would turn right to to to get to so it's that's basically the design question for sign number two that would be the precise location of it uh I had suggested that it move a little bit um although it wasn't ever even shown on the plan really it was a a leader that sort of identified where it was going to be but I think it should be shown on the plan to scale and uh with a precise location and then for D the D3 sign uh I think there's a lot more consideration to be given I proposed it wasn't really in the right location um for the way the traffic would want to move given the per the state of purpose of the sign I I suggest it' be put in a different location but of course depending on what location they ultimately want to you know if they want to keep it where they have it again should be shown on the plan it should be we should see the orientation of the sign and uh depending on the orientation of the sign the actual graphic information on the sign might change so there's just with sign D3 there was way too little information to uh even understand what was being proposed so each of the signs has different okay criteria that could be satisfied yeah thank you David and I would just add to that and I think the applicant already understands is that will be helpful for us to know exactly what they think they need in terms of the um size of the letters yes yeah and but it's not just size it's also spacing so you could have letters but if there's half an inch between them that becomes much less legible than yeah so yeah that thank you for that uh Claudia do we want to require that the letters be six inches no we want them to provide we want them right provide expert test they want we want them to propose a letter size and we want them to Pro provide expert testimony as to why that's the right size I thank you yep thank you Claudia just in addition to what uh councilman Cohen said I I would like to see an AI markup uh with a view of where the sign will be and what it will look like as if we were standing there looking at it because just showing it on a plan doesn't give me the feeling of what it'll look like but perhaps from the bird's eyee view uh standing or driving in what it would look like and how it's oriented um okay so it's orientation and and um the materials and what it looks like if there's landscaping around it that would help too we're aware of that thank you so um so David made a a motion um would someone like to second that second thank you Alvin McOwen um Mr Mueller do you want to um I'm also available to provide a date if the applicant wants to an extension Mr Letizia and Mr leming do you want to try to do that tonight or do you w to work with you want to consult and then come back we we'll certainly give you the try to get we won't we won't put this off my preference would be to if can announce a date tonight I think we can avoid Ren noticing okay yeah all right that would be my preference yeah I would I would ask Carrie if you know I see that I think the next meeting is the 14th I don't think you know we're not obviously not on the agenda nor we'd be ready for that meeting but what are the the following meetings and maybe we can all agree on one Carrie can you well um let me I only had 20 20 25 in front of me I'm sorry okay so decemberth December meeting um we have um 40-42 northan and then um on December 19th we were kind of holding off on waiting to see if that was needed um staff's you know we've been very busy so we were hopeful poor day sorry Carrie sorry a little honesty I'm sorry that that's perfect I'm sure the board is in agreement yes exactly I should just speak for staff I'm sure everybody's tired uh January 9 is Hillier uh janary 13 will be RB homes I hope uh December do you think you guys would be ready by December 19th oh that sounds like um I think that's the night Carrie wanted to give everybody off I was not gonna jump in on that I was gonna I I was the 23rd we have until the 23rd as it is uh I think Lise January 23rd January 23rd is an opening we was December 5th booked up is that what I heard carry yes yeah it's a big project it's going to be carried to well it's a big project if if I could just jump in December 19th would be the best bet we don't know what January or February or March are going to look like and you have nobody scheduled on that night yet I have a slight conflict when you start the meeting but it doesn't last for very long so if you had someone on the agenda first that we could go second um but having anyone else yeah that was also a date we were considering putting lamon on if we needed to Tom and then the first January meeting was what date again and that up yeah 30th so that's my pressure I get to I get to pressure Tom because the time's out on the 30th and we need another extension so so Ryan the 19th is will not work for you it's just um well can we start the meeting late if if yeah I mean if could what 7:30 will that work 7:30 is probably fine um if I'm not here right promptly at 7:30 Tom I'll let you set the stage and I'll join ASAP but I would love to I'd love to work with the board to keep keep everything at the shopping center moving and we can certainly commit to um responding quickly and and staying engaged on this okay so okay we so December 19th and uh unless something comes up that we um can or need to deal with uh between 7 and 7:30 we'll probably start the meeting at 7:30 instead of at 7 okay thank you for that consideration um Mr meller do you have anything to go over I expect that you do before we vote I I think it's pretty clear on what we're looking for when they come back with the directory signs I think so I think we have there there were a few if if it's not clear they can look at the video again yeah I don't wantan to I don't want to try to reiterate everything yeah and I think there's some flexibility there also if if they think it's good adding X Y and Z as points that we should be talking about yeah let's do that um now on the memo by uh by Dan and Derek um on P if I could on page four of six um under lighting of signs staff comment the values of building elevation sheet shall be revised to match the values identified in title one above um is should that still be in guys uh yes yes um there was just some uh discrep between the maximum permitted sign size uh on those sheets okay great and then under 4.0 C which is relation of proposed structures to the environment staff comment one the applicant shall provide for planning boards review elevations of the buildings with a facade signage proposed it's application along with sign signage submited under separate signage applications it seems to me we've we've now seen this do we need this correct correct that that appears to have been provided today as an exhibit the applicant shall advise of the hours of operation of the sign lighting also the the proposed color spectrum and provide a light study do we need to to do that this is your staff comment number two I think that would roll into what would be discussed okay at the following meeting yeah on bear with me for second and there was a comment about the signature block which which we will agree to do make that change is that on Justin's no that was on and Derek's and I would imagine that as this is being oh yeah deferred to the following ing meeting that that signature block wouldn't have to be revised until there's a resolution for that meeting so maybe that comment and the comment yep comment regarding the sight lighting can be carried to then um and J I hope you appreciate the fact that this one is numbered this time the pages thank you I think I'm the one that mentioned that last time yeah it was Louise okay so that's it okay right um moved by David seconded by Alvin Carrie would you call the role please yes of course Mr bodimer yes Miss capoli yes Mr Cohen yes Mr mwan yes Miss Nuka yes Mr odonnell yes Miss Pearl mutter yes Miss Wilson Anderson yes Mrs Wilson yes motion carried Justin Justin raised his hand just a logistical question Jerry uh if board members weren't here tonight and they want to vote on the other two that we you know that we hear next time they will have to watch this video correct yes got it okay and Jerry you'll write that letter that I asked for that we can submit with the permit applications great thank you so um thanks Mr Letizia and thank you Ryan um lieming and Alex Dy um we really really do support the shopping center and want it to be as the the best it can be for the for the whole community and I apologize to to the board for taking us off onto the PED bike tangent I just feel like at the end of the day it's just so important to get that right but it it isn't a part of tonight's application so um so forgive me for that um but [Music] um uh hopefully you can move ahead real quickly on the uh facade signs and we'll be back to look at the the rest of the issues that were raised tonight and um again thanks thank you yes for the time and the thoughtful comments and the support of the shopping center you're welcome Mr Cohen I'd like to offer an emotion to adjourn second second all in favor hi okay thanks everybody see you next week bye bye have a good weekend good night get rest