okay calling to order the zoning zoning Board of adjustment R and Township New Jersey regular scheduled meeting February 1st 2024 notice of the meeting the notice requirements of the open public meeting act have been satisfied by placing of a notice of this meeting on the bulletin board at the municipal building filing same with the r with the Township Clerk and transmitting same to the County Democrat The Courier News The Star Ledger and the Trenton Times Roll Call please chairwoman Miss Cynthia Schaefer here Vice chair Mr rul dami here Mr Steve fario here Mr Randy block here Randy Randy are you here all right we can see Randy yeah he's not you hear me yes thank youy uh Mr Jim Ferrero he has asked to be Excuse miss lindsy cool Brank out here miss lorett ctin I'm sorry ktina yes Miss Donna Drew here Mr James Miller here uh board professionals on behalf of board attorney Mr John drill we have Mr Joe toriello here Township planner Mr Jeffrey Vella here board engineer Mr Mark Kat trinc here traffic consultant Mr J Troutman here board planner Miss Jessica Caldwell has asked to be excused Township landscape architect Mr John Morgan Thomas here and board stenographer Miss Jackie clap okayy can I get a motion to excuse uh the approved to excuse Jim Ferrara I'll make a motion I see thank you R chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer yes Vice chair Miss orul dami yes Mr fario yes Mr Randy block yes Miss lindsy Co brel yes Miss Lorette ktina yes Miss Donna Drew yes great moving over to comments and announcements I guess our big announcement is we have new members so I want to welcome uh lorett ktina CA ktina Donna Drews and James Miller both from the planning board welcome yes okay moving to the resolutions uh R Township for adjustment Nicholas caracappa block 37 Lot 2 14 River Road application number bo- 06- 2022 resolution number 223-14 version 20241 d22 version 3 AG any comments or Corrections hearing none can I get a motion to approve I'll make a motion I'll see thank you can I get a roll call of the members who saw the application chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer yes Mr Randy block yes Mr rul dami yes Miss lindsy cool bral yes thank you moving to the next one we in Township for adjustment 2 268k 202 investors LLC 711 Inc 268 route 31202 North block 67 lot 22.07-cu [Music] [Music] a motion to approve I'll make a motion a second thank you roll call please chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer yes Mr Randy block yes Mr Steve fario yes Vice chair Mr rul DJI yes Miss Lindsay K bral yes thank you next resolution R Township for adjustment universal oil and gas Inc Liberty fuel stop and Mart block 80 lot 20 8 application bo-1 d221 resolution number 20 23-18 version 20241 D28 version three any corrections or additions hearing none can I get a motion to approve I make motion second thank you roll call please chair Miss Cynthia Schaefer yes Mr Randy block yes Vice chair Miss Russell DJI yes Miss lindsy cool bral yes okay next resolution R in Township Board adjustment Isidor and marsol quazars formerly dougas Striker 153 o o croon Road Block 26 lot 3 application number bo- 192021 resolution number version 20 24-1 D28 version 3 any corrections or additions hearing none can I get a motion to approve I'll make a motion I'll second roll call please chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer yes Mr Randy block yes Vice chair Mr rul DJI yes Miss Lindsey Co bral yes okay we have three applications for this evening uh we're going to try and divide the time equally so uh each application will get 45 minutes and if you would like to wait uh to see if the last one finishes early and then come back you're more than welcome to so the first application for this evening is Board of adjustment case number 19-2020 Fieldstone at Flemington LLC block 40 lot 3 57 59 VOR Corner Road preliminary and final site plan with d variant for proposal of a twostory self storage building good evening good evening and before we get started I have two notes no no no no no no you don't get away with not talking loud what and she can hear me I know she can hear me okay so everybody in the room knows and our new members know that you need to speak clearly slowly and into the mic okay Jackie our stenographers is on the on the zoom and she will throw something through through to get to you okay so that means you too go ahead and then my other note is that the following board members have read the transcript or listened to the taper coring of the hearing for Fieldstone that applies for Miss lorett cretina Miss Donna Drew and Mr James Miller if there's a vote tonight they are eligible to vote thank you Taylor good evening members of the board my name is mat Flynn from savos shock CLW firm in Somerville I'm here tonight representing the applicant Fieldstone at Flemington LLC uh we were before the board two uh on two nights last year on July 20th and December 21st and are now here uh with our third night of hearings um by way of a brief refresher uh the application is for preliminary and final major site plan approval for the construction of a two-story self- storage facility uh which is a permitted use in your B2 business Zone uh the subject lot as the uh chairwoman said block 40 lot three better known as 57 to 59 B East Corner Road now although this is a permitted use uh again we're in front of this board because of the need for a D4 variance as it relates to the proposed floor area ratio uh of the facility um at our first meeting you heard from three Witnesses you heard from Craig Styers our professional engineer our architect James danovich and a principal from the applicant Arthur Corsini uh we left that meeting uh supplied the board with some supplemental plans and endeavored in good faith to uh Supply every um item that the board members and also your Consultants asked for at our second meeting um we recalled Mr Styers and Mr danovich to go over those plan changes and again they were modest just a small reorient of the building and some changes as it relates to the storm water improvements for the site uh and then we left off in the middle of Mr Dean's testimony who is our traffic expert um tonight I plan on recalling Mr Dean to finish a testimony as it relates to traffic impact we also have our professional planner Beth mcmanis um and I do have Mr Styers on a rep for from the applicant here if there are any you know operational or engineering question followup questions so with that unless there are any legal questions I would like to recall Mr Dean great and he was already s he was sworn and qualified uh can you just confirm for the board that all of your licenses are uh current and remain in good standing yes they are and I I understand I'm still under Ro thank you thanks um Mr Dean can you provide the board with a refresher of what you began your testimony at uh our second hearing which is describe generally the traffic impact of this proposal uh on the surrounding roadway Network certainly as I presented at the prior hearing and and looking at the Spectrum available within your B2 zone of uses that are permitted unquestionably Self Storage is the most passive inert type of traffic generator um I think that exists and to put that into context we uh had prepared some information that was shared with the County but I also presented those findings to the board as far as how much traffic exactly and based on the size of the building our forecasts were on the order of 15 total movements traffic movements in or out per hour that's it so one person may be visiting every five or 10 minutes you know and obviously they come in and then they leave your B2 Zone permits a a fair number of what I would characterize high-intensity uses things such as shopping centers medical office Banks gas stations and the like that would generate roughly 10 times more traffic than would the proposed Self Storage so in terms of advocating for you know the least amount of impacts we can conceive um other than not developing the site can ly Self Storage is is a minimal generator I I know Mr Troutman your consultant reviewed that following up after that we we did two things the first thing we did was look at accidents recognizing that Public Safety uh is an is is always a concern um over the years from 2019 to 2023 so a 5-year period the Township Police provided us with accident data within that 5-year period there were 13 accidents directly across the site Frontage or at the Vets office um of those 13 accidents eight were related to Deer so of the remaining five they were motor vehicle incidents principally associated with people being rear ended turning into uh reading drve so one a year one of the things that was identified very early on from our discussions with the county is the fact that there are two Eastbound Lanes on case Boulevard where one of those Lanes drops out and and is a right turn lane for reading the county I'll say acknowledged that they didn't do a very good job of identifying the restricted use of that lane and so they asked this applicant and we agreed that we would increase the signage increase pavement markings that clearly denote um that the lane is ending and also include a a merge or Lane ending sign consistent with regular traffic engineering and Highway design standards so recognizing where the accidents are occurring and I'll say the county had the foresight to understand that somewhat unique C circumstance um this applicant is committed to addressing that concern the other thing we had occasion to do and and I know time is tight and and um you know the planning concerns I I think um you know deserve to be vetted we did send staff out to the site and we actually flew a drone during peak hours that hovered generally over the subject property and I if I could be so kind to ask Miss vau I'd like to just share with you a video clip of what those traffic conditions look like like at the worst time and and the way we identify the worst time is that when we did our traffic counts we isolate the 15 minutes when traffic is busiest and I I don't know before we before we do that Joe um legally uh does it have to be done by a certified drone pilot are we as long as it's timestamped are we I think he could lay the foundation of of who I can't hear him there you go first one PR it again it yeah we we can't hear that okay hold on no you got a yell pretend you're at the BL usually it's not often that I'm told that I speak softly so this is a very weird experience um I I think the witness can lay the foundation in terms of who Took the footage uh how it was gathered um I don't have a problem with that from an evidentiary standpoint in terms of somebody needing to be certified in ter in that it would be to me the same as taking a picture in terms of laying the foundation so great I don't I don't have a problem with it at all thank you so before you show your uh video Mr Dean can you just State when when the video was taken and and who took the video uh and just you know authenticate it so to speak of course so under my direct supervision one of our project Engineers who has I'll say been qualified and flies these devices regularly precisely for this type of Engagement uh was present uh at the intersection I don't recall the exact date but it was uh mid December I'm going to look it up as best best as I can recall I believe it was the 14th of December um it was shortly after our appearance here um that was a Thursday th so and then and then the following Saturday which is the 16th so again we Tuesdays that what was his name the person who did it my staff engineer Sam Foster okay so Sam visited the site I told him exactly the perspective I wanted um I would like to show you nothing more it's it's like showing you a picture only it's it's a video of the perspective and it was specifically focused there we are along the conditions of Vorhees Corner Road the the fal the file that I'm showing you is from the morning peak hour and it may not be as impressive as I hope okay before before you deploy it can we just get a our bearings I I was just about to do that sure thank you you you are with the the devices essentially hovered over the subject site we are looking essentially Northwest toward the Flemington Mall which is in the upper right hand corner of the exhibit uh looping behind the Flemington mall is Church Street Vorhees Corner Road runs in the horizontal axis of uh of this exhibit and reading Drive uh is to the left hand side so we are essentially over American bronze or again the subject property the uh closed bank is in the right hand side so hopefully um and what it's showing is what time was it this is during the morning peak hour at 7:45 in the morning so it's times when people are driving to work and again having collected these during these period periods we chose the the time when traffic was busiest it's by way of example now the video up there it's playing but the it's slow so hopefully you can see traffic moving you'll see it traveling I'll call it North on Vorhees Corner Road approaching Route 202 and if you look to the right you can see Route 202 just got the green light and the queuing uh or stacking of vehicles dissipates um it clears out because the signal is is uh actuated it's demand responsive when there are no vehicles it ceases operating and then it's what we call split phase so Vorhees Corner Road goes and the light turns red then Church Road goes while bores Corner Road is stopped and then there are the left turn Lanes on Route 202 that proceed at the same time and then north and south on Route 202 proceed so right now you're seeing what what we call a Northbound advance that means the left turns on northbound 202 are turning to continue call it North or west on Church Street and and now we have Route 202 proceeding North while 202 South is waiting for their turn and now they just turn green so it's important because during that time and we'll let it run for a minute or so you will see stacking on Vorhees Corner Road and I know there was some concern about the issues associated with the Vets office and and I'd like the board to recall that the proposed driveway is essentially in between the vet's office which is to the right hand side and then reading which is to the left hand side at no time during any of these peak hours and we were out there in the afternoon and we were out there on a Saturday during the busy shopping hours never once did it ever get close to the site driveway I think at one time it got close not blocking but close to and you'll see right there that's probably the peak queing for the Vets office and now just as that blue truck uh which is right in front of the vet's office it's starting to clear out now but at no time was there any effect that would in any way impair operations for the site driveway so if if I could ask the board secretary to to show the PM Peak file I I got a question before you go um you said that the peak hour was 7:45 how did you determine that now that's the peak 15 minutes within the peak hour when we do traffic counts we count we count every 15 minutes over a twoh hour period okay and so we look at the volume within every 15 minutes and found the time when it was busiest and that's what you did at that site correct how long were you out there two hours two hours so you were there from what time to what time 7 to 9 7 to 9 okay so I have a question uh what time does the vet open oh I have no idea 9 8:30 huh 8:30 8:30 yeah I mean I'm not looking at this for the vet I was looking at this no I'm just saying because that's where the traffic would be and that was the concern so I'm just wondering when that gets congested or when come out it well again we're not studying the vet we're studying the effect of traffic and the stacking as it I just have a simple question I'm not going to argue here right is uh Were You There When the vet office was open as simple as that I I if they open at 9 then no we weren't if they opened at 8:30 then yes we were and then how about the the traffic from the plaza coming up where the Plaza open at that time again you could see what whatever was occurring CU I see an empty parking lot there correct in the and at 7:45 in the morning that's what I would expect probably the PM would be better than the PM which which we're about to take a look at and then we get to Saturday I will this time of year is a little tricky you'll see what you can see the good news is car headlights are are well illuminated so and Mr Dean if you if you mind uh what what from what time to what time were you out there to study the peak the PM peak hour sure this this again we were we were there during the rush hours from 4: to 6 um I isolated the clip when when within that 2hour period the 15 minutes when it was worse and you can see traffic backing up I'll assume the vet is open there seem to be cars in there and the commercial center has evidence of vehicles being parked so it might even be easier to see at night because you can see the car headlights it's maybe 2third of the way to the vet's office um and this is at roughly 530 it might be 5:45 but in that General range and now you'll see Vorhees Corner Road is is being discharged from the light it it was halfway as I said 2third to the vet's office um again just for reference the the the video imag is oriented in the exact same way um this one is labeled PM for I identification purposes um and now you'll see Vorhees Corner Road stops while Church Road is proceeding in the in the opposing Direction um and I'll let it run as I continue my discussion Saturday will be the same bit of evidence at no time did we ever see it get as far as as the site driveway what were the uh what were the Saturday times that you had same thing say it would be roughly 11:30 to to 1:30 and and that's concentrated around noon when most people are out chopping and you know running errands and the like so and then what about you said you did at night on that Thursday you did two days correct no we did one day am and P pm and and then we did Saturday oh Saturday was just the 11:30 13 okay correct now on the on December 14th when you did the the AM and PM the PM was 4 to 6 correct correct okay do you know when school gets out in uh around this area roughly 2:45 3 o'clock I don't know specifically okay so the the Hun Central gets out at two and I think the middle school gets out around a little later than that the traffic during that time um is really bad but I just didn't know I mean you did one day on December 14th morning and night and then you did uh December 16th the Saturday 11:30 to 1:30 because you believe that would be the the time of the most I guess the shopping time is what you said correct corre okay and and we do that because traffic is most concentrated now if the high school were letting out at 2 o' we wouldn't have any eastbound queuing on Vorhees Corner Road that that's going toward the high school so hold on so the high school gets out delivers the kids they Circle back they do the middle schools which is up the street from here right they Circle back and then they do the elementary schools which is barley sheath they're all over the place so so so if we're looking at traffic patterns it would probably be the middle school getting out jpk and barley sheath not necessarily the high school well it definitely would be the high school because the high school's got to deliver kids this way and come back that way oh okay so of course it would now the thing that I would have liked to have seen is again you're talking about an area and and I can't stress this enough I said this last time um you're talking about an area and I I don't you know you said something about the police told you let me get this straight the police told you that there were I think you said 13 accidents over 10 years over five years 2019 to 20 2023 inclusive okay and that was I mean you're not discounting the fact that there's deer in the area right I I am presenting facts and and my conclusions are this is not an un inherently unsafe Corridor it having one accident per year at at an intersection is part for the course but not indicative of any kind of chronic safety or traffic problem or concern however recognizing what the county advised us we're doing our part to hopefully eliminate those accidents most of which were rearend accidents from people slowing down to turn right on to reading and the person behind them didn't realize they were in a turn only lane weren't expecting the person to stop it's inattentive driving and they were rear ending them do you think that inattentive driving will increase or decrease with um adding the facility with the additional uh Flor air ratio I no I don't think that'll change one iota do you think there'll be more drivers or no there would be more traffic whether it's going to increase in attentive driving no I have no expectation well you would have no idea that but there would be more drivers on the road for that to happen right and by that same logic I would much rather have a land use and development on this site that generates a tenth of other B2 uses irrespec of the floor listen let me just get one thing straight I understand that this is permitted use you've made that perfectly clear you obviously don't think I know what I'm talking about I know you don't think I know what I'm talking about that's fine it's okay we don't have to agree um but you're here in front of the uh zoning board okay you're you're here because you have an additional Flor air ratio so I'm just asking questions about this place that I drive every day and you did it for four hours on one day and you're telling me that that's not going to increase traffic or the fact that there's going to be additional drivers which you think is not a big deal because you're going to have all these different signage that's your testimony my my testimony is the development of this property is inevitable I didn't that's not in dispute sir and and you're choice is something that is economically viable and and you'll hear from our planner as to the justification for the floor area ratio the alternative is it won't be self- storage and and then you're left with in my opinion something that's vastly inferior in terms of your very concerns of more traffic and safety okay but wait a second you're not a planner I am actually you're a planner yes you're not here as a planner are you no I am not miss mcmanis is isn't you correct Okay so you're not going to testify as a planner right you're going to testify as the traffic expert correct that's the only questions I'm asking you I'm I can't wait to hear from M mcmanis I think she's very good I'm gonna listen to her but I'm asking you about traffic and I can't I I'm still not understanding how you understood what we were trying to say last time at least what I was trying to say that that area I don't care what anyone says I don't care what anyone says that area is a mess so you guys wanted the in increase of the F right so that's why you're here so I'm just trying to figure out if that's going to affect traffic you tell me that you did a study on one day during the week during what you believe to be peak hour times of 7 to 9 I believe that's what you said and 4 to 6 at night and then you did Saturday 11:30 to 1:30 that's that's what I'm asking that's the consistency of your study you had a guy go there he puts up the Drone for two hours I guess he goes home whatever comes back at 4 to six puts up the Drone um which we're going to see I like to see that as well I know I know we saw some of that you're going to show us Saturday as well yes we I'd like to see that too so Pro um I don't think you marked this there's been a lot of test did you no okay yeah yeah we we need to mark this the first video will be A7 this the PM one will be A8 and then the following one Saturday will be A9 thank you Joe thank you uh I do have a question while you're showing just so we can f process why don't you put the video for Saturday um when do you think uh the traffic is going to be high volume for the business you're opening what are the hours you think I I I can't speak there was I believe I hope operational testimony as to the intended hours Gary I I can the the testimony in the last hearing was that it would be open from 6:00 to 10: and that the busiest the expectation of the busiest time for this use is weekend around the time that we're showing for Saturday yeah my question was same time right between 11 to I believe that was the testimony yes that's the testimony and just to say one other thing I I um as it specifically relates to to traffic impact the testimony at the last hearing was that if the site were to be developed this use is less traffic intensive than any other permitted use in the zone and the testimony was that when you consider the additional floor area ratio I.E if we were to build a facility that was within your 20% versus what we're proposing the increase was only about four customers at the peak hour that's the increase in traffic that you get as it relates to the increase in the floor area thank you for that um so Mr Dean I'll turn it back over to you for the Saturday video certainly so now the third video is a slightly higher elevation you you can see um again oriented the same way with Vorhees Corner running in the I'll call it horizontal but more diagonal from bottom left corner to upper rightand corner Route 202 is is visible to the far upper right hand corner of the video and again it shows the same you know General patterns of alternating traffic on Church Street and Vorhees Corner Road and then Route 202 so I again as as a professional engineer I don't see anything to me having watched this having worked in this community for 40 years anything that I would characterize as a mess nor do I find any any kind of evidence of there being a traffic safety issue in terms of Crash history or patterns that are indicative of anything that's overly problematic I think the one area and the county was correct you will notice as you look in the upper right there are two Eastbound but maybe southbound is the better Direction but two southbound Lanes on Vorhees Corner Road that go on the of the vet in the strip center and to a driver they look like a two-lane highway but about halfway down between 202 and reading you'll see some pavement markings that then turn into a right turn only lane so a driver that again is not familiar with the road there's a an absence of warning and ad uh signage to alert drivers that that lane is about to drop those individuals that are turning and decelerating to continue on Reading Road the person following them thinks they're in the through Lane and that's when the again they're not alert enough and there are those rearend incidents at a frequency of one per year it's not something and I'll defer to Mr Troutman for his opinion but it's certainly not anything that's suggestive of uh a chronic or routine or or habitual problem so and and again Vorhees Corner Road at midday on Saturday is now we have an instance where there's actually no traffic on it um Here Comes one eastbound veh vehicle excuse me but in terms of traffic backing up and having any effect on a safe means of Ingress or regress to the site I find nothing um and it supports my conclusion that our Ingress would be safe and efficient and certainly appropriate Mr Dean could could you please um estimate where the driveway to the storage facility is it's it's not where the trees are correct it's more of where that house is showing it's it's roughly I remember we measured it at the last hearing and and I'm going by memory but I believe it's halfway almost exactly halfway between the Vets driveway and R okay and so I don't I don't have a means to point but if you you see the house at the bottom of the exhibit I believe the site driveway is generally just to the left or call it South of that house if I recall from last time you know the tree cinthia is correct the tree which is on the left side of the house house it was in that area if I recall correctly okay so you correct from your testimony from last time I I'm not understanding what he's just saying he agrees with where you estimate that the driveway to the left answer Cynthia's question it's near that tree there okay okay thank you yeah uh I do have another question and here is the issue uh I when I asked the peak question I did read this report before I got here from July 29 20 do you have that okay from Mr Dean and the report is for 200 17 traffic reports okay so and I have to agree with my colleague here and anybody in the room knows this that the traffic has increased significantly from 2017 to now the question is either for Mr Dean or our experts is there anything better from the report point of view it's been from 2017 that we can try to understand stand and objectively answer that question rather than just a snapshot of the video shown there I have a question I'm not sure the report what's 2017 yours is July dated 29 2022 okay and then there's this analysis here of the report from 2017 as your attachment you can see it I have it here what what you have is a uh a New Jersey Department Transportation short-term hourly traffic volume 4 uh 22317 to 317 and then you have the same thing but I guess it's a uh I don't know if it's different time or not yes I'm just looking for more recent G do you want to address that yeah other than us watching the video and counting that would be the only way I can I can get you new numbers so it doesn't exist that report is that what I'm hearing no no no it it was a a compilation of traffic counts compiled by NJ doot that they put a machine out and they monitored traffic and that gave me um some indication of the volumes traveling on Vorhees Corner Road my question is very simple is there any other report like this which is more current maybe it's not if I don't know I I don't believe so what what he's saying is you in your report obviously attach it to your report you relied on information from 2017 which is now seven years ago in your report correct correct okay that's your that's what you asking so I'm trying to figure out obviously I'm trying everything to make this work but I just don't know how to address this concern I mean we we I I if that if the test testimony is that he doesn't believe that there's more recent do data I mean we went out to this the site and we've shown the exhibit I'm not sure what else we could we could do we've also you know responded to concerns from the county about that so I mean we're willing to work with the board whatever the board wants I mean if there's more what we're saying is we're proposing a use here that's low traffic generating the floor area ratio as our planner will testify to it it's to make the site economical so in terms of what the V4 variance relates to the increase in traffic it's four additional customers at the peak hour was the testimony if there's some additional counting that the board would like us to do as a condition we'd be willing to work with the board I mean I guess Mr Dean's testimony is we have his report and then he went out and flew a drone at the peak hours hold on I'm glad you said that so just so we're clear what we have is that Jackie Jackie Jackie okay are you okay I'm okay I'm okay okay so what what is my concern okay is what we have and I'm glad that rosul had said this is that you have a study that you relied upon that's from 2017 the extent of what the analysis is if I'm correct is that Mr Dean had his drone expert whatever expert whatever it is I'm sure he's more than capable of doing a drone he goes out there and you have have one day of four hours and then you have a Saturday of two hours that's the analysis that we have to deal with for people who live in this community and know that road in and out that to me is not enough in my opinion okay now you said that and I remember uh the testimony was that it would increase it to four based on the floor ratio right that's what you said right that's correct okay now here's the question four out of what if if you didn't have the increase what would be the what would be the amount of it was four customers to eight customers at the peak hour okay so instead of four we're saying there would be there would be eight is that what you're saying that's correct okay so that's that's what we're I think this is what we're at least this is what I'm trying to get through with respect to the the traffic I'm not I'm just trying to figure out based on what this report says and then based upon what I'm hearing and what the analysis is I don't unless I'm wrong you correct me if I'm wrong my I'll I'll ask our our experts as well am I wrong that that's what we have to deal with is 2017 data and we have a collective six hours from two days of uh drone video is there anything else I'm missing I don't think you're missing anything uh in in this case of of a a low traffic generator on the menu of possible uses the uh the the more important factors in my opinion would be the safety which was missing from the testimony last hearing we didn't have the crash data we have that now um and it it it is not an unusual safety pattern issue out there do we have you said you have do you have that data that you can give us from the police we can supply it sure okay we just got it from the Township Police so no that's fine you can provide it to us right absolutely okay um I'm not again I want to be very clear I'm not talking about the actual use I'm just talk I'm trying to understand what the analysis is on the traffic I understand that miss mcmas is going to get up here and she's going to tell us why this is the perfect use for this place I get it but that's not your job your job is to tell us about the traffic so that's what I'm trying to get at uh Jay I understand what you're saying too but I need to understand um what the analysis is is six hours in data from 2017 unless I'm missing something I want to know but but let's but I don't want to penalize the 2017 data because it's from the state and that's what the state does it goes around and it lays the the wire the across the road and it does the studies they're not going to do studies every year at this intersection right that that it's normal to have um data that's and I agree with our soul that the there is increased traffic in Flemington so the 2017 data there's nothing we could he could have done that if the doj doesn't do the study could couldn't you have done the study himself yeah I mean certainly you could take a measurement in 2024 to see how it compares to 2017 okay uh but the whole reason you even take these measurements is to make sure that there are adequate gaps to process the turns out of the proposed driveway and looking at the the number of turns that this use generates even at the highest hour on Saturday it it's clear that there is no issue with finding gaps to get that small number of turns out of this driveway the vet generates much more turns and those move in and out Readington Road generates a lot more turns and those turns move in and out so there's really no uh heavy need to rely on that 27 dat did was the vet an application that was before the board I don't know I wasn't wasn't for me I wasn't here I don't I don't remember okay I'm I'm know I mean again I think it it was it was John Thomas remembers it okay and they had they had obviously had a traffic expert I'm assuming I assume okay all right I wasn't on the board at that time so I have no idea what what worries me is and this has nothing to do with this application the vet has an easement and if you see the video you can see that the vet had to place his property that easement is going to be a road when the it's developed further down behind it right which means that to me worries me more than this okay we can't we can't obviously control any of that I do want to also if I may address Mr Faro again because I I think his his concern is well taken we're we're not here telling you there's no traffic problem we're here to say we're trying to pitch a project that will not exacerbate the problem we're saying this is the lowest generator we can have and we've we've we've proposed the floor area ratio to make the project economical but what we're saying is if you do develop the site if you turn us down and somebody down the road comes to develop this site it will far exacerbate the traffic problem more than our case will and so what we if the board has any suggested conditions that we can work through to help continue to assuage those concerns the applicant will work with the board but but as we sit here today this application will generate some traffic but it will generate far fewer traffic than any other proposal that would go here that's why we're here so let me ask our experts is there anything else they can do from a safety point of view signage maybe where the entrance is of the driver coming in coming out anything I have a response if if I could let me just finish that excuse me just J go there the original proposed had the driveway somewhere else that was inferior to where it is now through their discussions with the county the driveway ended up on the plan where it is now and by the way if we're looking aerially it lines up exactly with that front aisle of the retail if you just picture that front aisle in front of those retail stores extending which is by that tree like you said it's exactly where you all said so we put to speak up Mr Troutman sorry put the driveway right in between the nearest two conflict points so that that's good and my my checklist on something like this would be number one safety we heard about the crash data today also an aspect of safety is sight line you want to have a nice straight flat section we have sight line the county is also examining all these things and not hearing you has no Pine but there's a a sight line issue and I and I agree with that capacity I discussed uh turning movements in and out of the driveway are there gaps for those movements to turn and then the third thing would be G geometry at the driveway do we have the proper radi to handle the designed vehicles and I had made a recommendation to increase the Turning radi to make those turns more efficient and they've uh changed the plan to address that so uh in terms of my checklist of items for this type of use I think they they've satisfied I have one more question uh what German suggested is in the future there's going to be the easement did you guys consider that in terms of where the placement is or can there be any change maybe you would say no it's okay I I I actually was aware of that easement because there's another application uh for that property that's I guess it's dormant right now but I was aware that that easement could become busy so having this driveway located uh apart from that location where it is Planned is is uh is proper traffic planning in my opinion okay thank you did the county mention anything or discuss that did the county mention anything or discuss that Jay uh I I haven't interacted with the county I only can rely on what the applicant can tell us of what the C's commented on and again this we we followed a process that is a little unique in that we went to the county first usually we come to the local land use board and then as an outside agency you know in sequence we deal with the county the state Etc because safety and the location of this driveway and the conditions we knew were going to be of such concern we went to the county we we took their advice we changed the design of the plan and that c ated in the county approving the driveway and location when the vet went in and built their driveway the county would have understood the master plan Road at that time but it has nothing to do with this application we're we're far away and Mr DJI is it you asked about 2017 data and was there anything more recent I was remiss not even reading my own report there was more recent data from 2020 the problem was that was the middle of Co or it was the beginning of Co and we all know what happened to traffic so even though it's more recent arguably the 2017 preco is is higher that's a good point so we we we were aware of it it's acknowledged in our report that it was available but I had to discount it just because of the pandemic we all knew things were far suppressed than they than they are normally so thank you for the that I just wanted I didn't hear that at all thank you I have no further questions at this time of Mr Dean um just a note are you submitting the police report as an exhibit I I I will okay if he does that is A10 great okay any other questions it's 5 to8 how long is the planner expected the hope is that she's our shortest witness do we want to extend to yeah okay great all right so I can call Miss mcmanis thank you I will call Beth mcmanis as our professional she stood up and was kind of like and she was sworn last [Music] meeting you were you were sworn can you just go through quickly your professional credentials for the board I'd be happy I'd be happy too uh first and foremost I'm a licensed planner I hold my y you're G to get yelled at I'm sorry Jackie already I'm a license planner I hold my njp I can't hear you bet at all yeah that's not that's not on I know okay so I'm a licensed planner I hold my uh aicp as well as my uh New Jersey Professional planning license my PP I've been working in New Jersey land use for more than 20 years now I've testified before a number dozens of boards in the state including this one quite a few times uh other municipalities include places like uh uh lill uh the scataway uh Bernardsville a variety of other locations we well we'll accept there can you go through your the planning analysis that you performed for this project I'd be happy to stuff out of the way okay so folks uh I think the board recognizes and is very clear that we are here just for an F variance as opposed for a prohibited use a D1 variance and so one of the uh one of the things that I've heard that I I have to acknowledge first first that will be of the themes of the testimony is about the traffic concerns that have been raised and those are certainly implicated as part of the F variant since we're seeking permission the the fundamental basis of it is we're seeking permission for a building that is larger than what would be otherwise permitted but for a variety of reasons I think that I I think that the board can comfortably find in favor of the application because of really the unique aspects of our use as well as the unique aspects of the way that we've designed our site and the way that we've designed our building so for a f variance this is not a typical D variance in the sense that it's special reasons instead the the task is or the testimony is how can the additional F how can the additional F or floor area be accommodated on the property and um I think there are uh a handful of reasons that the board should consider and the first thing that I wanted to revisit about this topic is frankly why it is that we're here seeking a building that is larger than what is permitted um our building size our proposed building size is roughly 95,000 square fet a permitted building would be roughly 45,000 Square ft and so the reason why we're seeking this Franklin substantial deviation as you may recall from I think our first hearing with our applicant we provided testimony about the nature of the use and in order to create a self- storage building at this location that is economically feasible that that realistically can and would be developed we have to increase the size to something that is economically viable something that is that can be supported on the site and and be successful and I think that that actually also holds some advantages to Raritan Township in the sense that if you have these commercial uses throughout the township you certainly want them to be successful you want them to be well-maintained and really greatl looking and our proposed building not only achieves that minimum size for economic viability but it will also allow for us to have uh a successful and uh and uh uh positive contribution tion to the community so that's I wanted to remind folks why it is that we're asking for that variance in the first place but beyond that uh F the while we have to talk about how the additional floor area can be accommodated uh I wanted to remind folks the reason uh the reason why F might be regulated and it's in order to help address things like building scale building Mass so how large the building is in terms of what it looks like as well as other impacts both on the site and off the site so impacts that might relate to say ovious cover as well as traffic and uh just to tick through some of the some of the issues uh our site can easily accommodate this larger building from I think each of these perspectives of each of these reasons why f is regulated so uh starting first with impervious cover however I want to remind folks that we are well below the maximum permitted 55% is permitted and we're at about 47% and so despite our uh our larger building where as well as parking and everything else that is necessary to accommodate that building we still have substantially less impervious cover than would otherwise uh be permitted additionally we're not seeking a building height variance we are just at two stories and we're able to uh meet the parking requirement and we're able to do uh to do all of that while still managing to meet the storm water management requirements and in fact we have testimony from our engineer Mr Styers from I think the last hearing where he he confirmed that our development will not contribute toward Flooding at Vorhees Corner Road and vot 202 and so I want folks to keep that in mind as well and of course uh referencing I think the the elephant in the room and that is the park or the traffic on the property I really want folks to think of this or I would encourage the board to think of this as really an opportunity for you to have what is perhaps one of the lowest traffic generating Properties or developments on this site aside from uh aside from uh permanent open space for Self Storage it is a if it is a significantly less uh traffic demand or generator than I think every other uh permitted use in the district considering that the district permits things like uh daycare Banks retail and shopping centers as well as some other commercial uses and so as I think about and I think about some of the testimony that you've heard from Mr Dean at I think the last meet the last meeting uh we heard this evening just a quick summary that some of these other permitted uses would permit perhaps 10 times more traffic than what's being proposed but I wanted to highlight a couple of these uh so for example uh we are looking at uh at about nine trips in the morning 14 trips in the evening in terms of the peak hours and about 16 on Saturday and that could be compared with let's say a medical office at 25 in the morning 160 in the evening and 120 on Saturday or perhaps let's also take a shopping center which would be 141 in the morning 420 in the evening and 400 on Saturday and so in terms of the the benefit I think this use is significantly better than a permitted use that really could uh seek site plan approval as a byright application potenti before the planning board but I also heard concerns that yes you understand that this is a permitted use but what does the additional four area ratio mean from a traffic perspective and we heard that that results in about four more customers during peak hour and I think that that is a minimal amount of additional traffic to to permit what would be a viable an economically viable use on the property while still maintain aing that uh very low potential for traffic demand compared to these other permitted uses in the district and so for for these reasons because of the opportunity to have the site developed with something that is uh really quite beautiful and I want to review the architecture once more in a moment but the opportunity to have the site developed was something that's quite beautiful that reflects the Township's Rural and agricultural character and to actually do it with significantly less traffic than what other otherwise might occur really is an opportunity that I think the board can take advantage of in terms of some of the other support for f uh in addition to the uh the lower traffic I also want to highlight the the building design uh we've talked about this I think at the last two hearings uh including with of course testimony from our architect slow down uh our building is proposed to have very much a rural or a barn character uh you can see from and I'm sorry I don't have the exhibit numbers off the top of my head but you can see on the board over there a rendering of of our building and I think that that does a couple things one it provides enhanced architect uh architectural style beyond what is permitted or required in the zoning ordinance to for the A5 thank you I so one it's enhanced architecture to it's architecture that truly is reflective of I think some of the best parts of Raritan Township which is your Rural and your agricultural character and then three that building design specifically does a great job of hiding that F that increased F and it does so through the architecture itself so that's actually a twostory building which I think with that Second Story largely hidden if you will within the roof the roof line of the building so it almost appears will appear as a single story building the other way that the f is is hidden if you will from Vorhees Corner Road is in the shape of the bu is in the shape of the building in the sense that we have that portion that extends at towards the rear corner if you will because we're B of a triangular shaped property and so that that portion of the building will not be visible from Vorhees Corner Road so both in terms of the uh building shape as well as the architectural style were able to really hide a significant amount of that floor area to to significantly mitigate the impact of uh of the increased floor area and to accommodate that increased floor area counc said it8 refering to I can't hear you at all Mr T so we need to clarify that says yeah that's that's not A5 so I don't have that so that would be considered A1 that's fine we want I'll Mar Jackie did you get that no okay so the issue is the diagram is not A5 it wasn't marked and it's now A1 got Steve and so the last point I wanted to make on F before I move on to some of the other Varian is similar to the architecture how that the building style uh is uh and the building shape really hide some of that floor area from bores Corner Road I just want to highlight the fact that our uh our uh lot shape also facilitates that one of the the aspects of the property is it's more or less triangular shape and so yes we've shaped the building to uh to uh to to maximize our ability to develop the site in a way that hopefully works for the board but as a result of that lot shape it also facilitates our ability to have this building that is uh with a significant portion hidden from bhe Corner Road and the result is of course this L-shaped building and that means that instead of having a large uh building Mass uh running parallel to the road where the the building scale and size is is much more noticeable instead we have a varying uh building line we have varying building setback along bores Corner Road as the building is sort of L-shaped or maybe v-shaped is is a better description in this context and that too will help mitigate the building size and help to accommodate that increased F so that really the building doesn't look out of scale of what's expected and that of scale with the character of this area and before I address the negative creteria I want to hit Upon Our C variances we've require C variance really for the rear yard setback we have 31 uh 31.0 one foot setback compared to the 50 ft that's required we also have uh condensers AC condensers which have a setback of 23 ft uh 23.12 ft also within the rear yard setback uh and so I think that these variances can be satisfied both as C1 and C2 and starting with C1 which is of course the hardship variance I've cited uh this a this type of a variance because of that unique shape of our property where we have uh that triangular shaped property if you will and so that means that it creates uh increased difficulty in order for us to design a site and design a design a building uh given these awkward and irregular uh lot lines that we have on the property um uh the uh the Triangular shape of shape of the property uh as I said really creates this uh this unusual shape that I think think the board can find it contributes to a hardship on the property and that of course applies to not only the building setback but also the AC condensers and which are directly adjacent to that non-conforming uh setback so it's really uh part of the same portion of the building that requires this relief we also require relief uh for having a water meter pit within uh the frontage of the property uh that of course uh is uh also contributes uh due to uh the location of our building and also the need to have that access from uh from bores Corners Road I think the board can consider that under under the C1 criteria as well for our C2 criteria that's the the flexible C or benefits versus detriments if you will uh again I want to reference the rear yard stepb of 31 feet for the building and about 23 ft for the for the uh condensers the I think I would Ur I would urge the board to consider that variance as part of purpose I which is to promote a desirable visual environment through creative development techniques and good Civic design and Arrangement um by uh requesting that undersized setback it allows us to propose a building that is uh that properly responds to this unusual lot size and in doing so not only does it allow us to have that response but it also facilitates us to have this L-shaped or maybe this v-shaped building which has significant benefits in terms of creating a more desirable Frontage of the property it allows us to have additional Green Space and open space along the along the front yard uh and so by pushing that building a bit to the rear we're able to create a improved visibility of the site from the public aspects of the property which is of course along the public right of way and uh next I want to take the negative criteria uh and I'd like to uh start with the uh the public good uh I think the board can find that there's no substantial detriment here to the public good for a variety of reasons um first and foremost through the testimony uh despite the fact that we have that increase F there's minimal increase in traffic as compared to a permitted use uh permitted size of that building and so I want to remind folks of just the four additional customers that might occur as a result of the increased floor area ratio and so we're able to accommodate the accommodate the The increased building size without creating Traffic Safety traffic capacity or traffic volume concerns on the uh on the property Additionally the F can be accommodated without uh imposing problems on other measures of intensity such as impervious cover storm water management and again we're able to meet not only the building height but also the required parking uh additionally we're able to accommodate that f as well as the rear yard setback and do so in a way that really creates a better looking uh by using a betterlook building so again we have that rural or agricultural character building which not only has improved architecture over what might otherwise occur and certainly what's required but it also helps us hide that F on the property helps to hide that Second Story within the roof line and to create more visual interest than what other otherwise might occur on the site particularly through some of the other permitted uses sorry um and I also wanted to know in terms of public good one of the benefits to the to the site is that there's a lot of multif family and Tow houses being approved both in RAR and Township as well as in the surrounding area and so in terms of thinking about services for existing and future residents that's another benefit to this proposal in that we're going to be able to uh providing a providing a needed service within the township uh that will perhaps mean that folks don't have a need to travel farther to access their storage needs and in terms of the negative criteria for the Zone plan and whether there's any substantial detriment uh I certainly think think there is not in fact I think there are some land use goals that are uh in support of our application uh but also although we do need variance relief from these handful of items the F the rear yard setback uh I think that we're still able to accommodate the intent of those requirements the intent with the f is of course to provide for adequate open space adequate uh building scale and massing and so we're able to do that with a uh a lovely front yard that will have significant plantings in open space we're able to uh to still provide uh a property that can uh be adequately parked Etc and we're able to provide adequate function of the property particularly to the rear with that rear yard setback so there's enough enough space at the rear for maintenance Etc and we're able to maintain the trees along the property line in terms of the relevant master plan goals there's a uh a master plan goal to Simply permit additional non-residential development I think we're clearly uh in support of that uh to limit growth to existing sewer plant capacity we are in a sewer service area uh limit growth to existing roadway capacities and I think that reflects some of the board members concerns about traffic in this particular area and so again for the eenth time tonight I just want to highlight that this is an opportunity to have a perhaps the lowest traffic generating use on the property that is permitted uh and likely to occur on the site uh and then last there's to uh promote smart growth policies including EV stations storm resiliency Etc and so we're going to comply with all the storm water electric vehicle charging Etc and again by providing that service that some of your existing but also new residents need that has the potential to simply just result in reduced vehicle miles traveled as folks only need to go to this spot on vor's corner to access their storage needs rather than perhaps a more distant location and so with that folks I'm happy to answer any questions I have a few okay um so you when you talk about for example um the so the the F here went from 45,000 to 90 right correct 95,000 95 okay so more than double my question is um when you say that this is going to be a less impact like Mr Dean was saying um my question is if there's a permitted use in this area that doesn't need a variance what's the maximum uh floor area ratio they can go to I believe it's about uh 45,000 square feet so if it's 45,000 they won't even come before us you're saying that a 45,000 square foot um permitted use we don't know what that would be but you're saying most likely whatever that permitted use would be even if they don't come before us in the board that it would have a higher impact um on this area than a 95,000 ft uh storage unit yes absolutely that is my testimony if you consider for example a medical office just to choose one of the permitted uses uh a medical office would have 125 trips during that am peak hour and 160 160 during that PM peak hour and so the board would the township rather would have significantly increased traffic I think you would also have signif potentially let me strike that I can't confirm that uh I think that the likelihood of achieving the architecture that's been proposed here may also be less likely one of the one of the benefits that I'm sure the board is aware of with uh zoning board applications is sometimes you need to uh to take extra steps in order to uh accommodate the variances that you're requesting here we've taken extra steps in the architecture to accommodate that excess F that we're requesting a permitted medical office for example would have uh would not need to do so okay um and are you saying that there I don't think I heard any I'm just curious are you saying there's so there's no negative attributes to this at all if there's not there's not I'm just asking I don't know well the question is the the the question for the testimony is whether or not there's a substantial detriment and I unequivocally no there is no substantial detriment that I can identify in this application and that is my testimony are there any negative attributes I still don't think so but I have to acknowledge that that's a bit more subjective I think the Assumption in my opinion the Assumption the Board needs to make is that this site will be developed in the future unless it's uh preservatives preservatives open space but I will note it's not identified in your Farmland preservation plan as part of a a potential acquisition so I would urge the board to assume it will be developed in the future I think compared to a even a permitted development this has far less negative outcomes or detriment than what might otherwise occur okay that's all does anyone else have any questions Don yeah clarification please um the rear yard setback that's being requested you're asking for 31 versus 50 yes I'm a bit perplexed because your plan show the rear yard setback at being 40 feet I think that was an oversight on our plan I believe the Mr Vella I'm sure I can confirm but I believe the the required setback is 50 feet it's it's 50 okay thank you thank you anyone else have any questions there are members of the public online yes there any members of the public have any questions of this witness anyone here for this application that from the audience no okay we already 8 25 okay so closing I would just say that before we close any anything anything from our experts we haven't covered from Mark or John Thom I believe at the last hearing we went over my latest report which was December 15th I believe yeah December 15th was my latest report there were a number of um items in that report um where there was a series of recommended conditions and I believe the applicant had stipulated to complying with those conditions I recommend that those conditions still stand none of the testimony that has been proferred tonight changes any of those recommendations on in my report so those conditions would be my continued recommendation okay comply and basically report that they would agree withs okay last meeting I I we will comply okay how about you Jeff yes everything was uh testified or agreed upon okay so and really in closing I would just say you've heard the testimony of our Witnesses um I did just hear from my client you know if if there's a board member that you know still has concerns about the traffic if you want us to take additional counts we'll do so uh and we'll come back um but you know as of now that's the last of the um presentation for this evening if if you know a board member wants to speak up and say I'm still not satisfied with the proofs that were given and I'd like additional data then we will we will do so um so I mean I I think I think the testimony stands in terms of of of we're trying to do everything we can to not exacer at the problem but if if it's a question of the data was flawed or the methodology was flawed we'll go take more counts yeah I think this just kind of directed at me so um I don't mean it's okay I get it I get it I get it it's it's okay um to be honest no I I don't think I mean listen I I know what I know what the traffic is there um and I listen I'll be I'll be honest I I don't think that um to say that I'm thrilled with what I think has been presented uh with respect to the traffic I would say I'm not um it's something that I'm very uh concerned about with respect to this area um and you know this this goes to every application that we deal with we're very concerned about the traffic in Flemington um now the one question I had is I think the last time and I think it may have been um I can't remember who asked the question but the question was you guys want to go from 45 to 95 I get that but there was no consideration of going like less than that right I think it was because of and and listen the architectural plans are awesome but is that because of the plans is that is that why the the uh applicants representative Mr Corsini who was with us at the first meeting he said that they scoped the area out and that that that this size facility is what would make this sort of state-of-the-art Self Storage economically viable for there's some climate controlled units in here it's it's a costly okay project understood okay Donna did you have anything no okay okay so we're going to close for deliberation don't start with me I'll go first so uh first of all thank you so much uh I know there have been a lot of good work has been done here and good preparation from all entire team and uh so very nicely done and uh I I was on the record even the first time when you guys showed the design impressive was very impressive and it is uh so I'm going to focus on few items one is first of all I'll support the application and what impressed me the most is uh as was mentioned use and site and from a use point of view and that will cover both from a d as well as C2 variant um one of the testimony I think was from the owner about which I wasn't aware of but then I did some my own research that there is definitely need for that type of storage in the area you just mentioned earlier it's a highend with Cooling and is the residential which you mentioned today population growing uh there will definitely be a need and it's very unique and that's good for the community and obviously from a sight point of view if I have to summarize um I love it but more importantly is it adds to that character in the neighborhood and then the way it has been well thought of in terms of how it has been structured it also allows for other elements which were mentioned interest of time I'm not going to repeat it was very nicely summarized so with that uh I am going to support uh this application thank you anyone else want to go okay I'll go um I would be in support of this application I I do like the design a lot I don't understand the business I don't understand why we have so many storage facilities here but that being said the testimony from the applicant that his facility in Bridgewater is 80% or 90% fill after the first year um I I believe it um I do like it that it's it's climate controlled I think that's an advantage to this piece of property versus the other storage facilities I'm concerned about the traffic I don't live on that side I don't um know that area I travel there once every three months um I do uh I do appreciate the testimony from our traffic consultant our traffic expert um and that the county was um the county worked with you so that is um mitigates any concern I had and I just think this is one of the best things we could have for this piece of property we're Flemington marer Township is growing we want to support businesses we want to support good development um and we appreciate the architectural design of this as uh it leads it helps with our character that we try to meet in a r and Township so I would be for this I it's you all right um well F first of all I will I will um I'll just indicate that um I do think that first of all I want to I want to really thank uh the applicant and um just the fact that you guys are willingness to to be flexible uh even the willingness to give us more information if we wanted it a lot of people won't do that um and I know that this seems probably probably think I'm being a little bit difficult to deal with I'm really not um this just the traffic in this area is a huge concern for me uh for someone who drives that road probably literally five to six times a day I'm going to tell you the traffic study is not accurate it's not it's just not uh what I'm convinced about is that I do believe that the use itself is probably the best use for that area um I think it's going to be massive um 995,000 square fet is massive um but that property is pretty big so um and I do think that I'd rather have that uh in that area than a medical building um I'm very concerned about the traffic um I'm very very concerned about that do I think we need a need for it I mean it sounds like we do because of the different um types of um features that it has uh and I do think that um this area is going to be like you said it's going to be it is going to be developed at some point um and I think that if we're able to control the fact that it's going to be a use that's not going to have a ton of traffic which I agree doesn't have a ton of traffic the problem is it doesn't take much for that area of um for East Corner Road to go crazy um I I haven't seen the police information um I would have liked to have seen that um but I think based on the overall uh project the information that's been provided the willingness of the applicant and um in Council I think you did a great job um just presenting it and being again the flexibility and understanding that it's not meant to be adversarial at any point I just I'm trying to figure out um what the traffic so with that said I do think that the um the use itself um is the one that would probably best fit for that area so I am going to um be in favor of the Project based on that anyone else have anything to say before we vote hearing oh I'm sorry that's okay yeah um I think one to me I'm I'm going to be voting in support of this application I think to me the biggest thing is the design standards that were used to minimize the impact of the increased F that's huge and the other really critical thing knowing that intersection and the storm waterer management flooding issues that they didn't push the limit on their impervious coverage and in fact reduce some of the parking and the impervious coverage on the site and developed their stroer Management in a way that was appropriate um so those I think are very very positive things for this application and the use in and of itself we could have something um with a larger detriment to the area and I drive that road every day multiple times and traffic is bad so all right and then I just have one thing um so I am in favor for this as well I think it's definitely a good fit and looks I do struggle with the size I think it's just a large building and want to keep it as Community oriented as we can but um with that being said is there I know you mentioned the traffic signage and everything is there anything that you guys will be supplying afterwards that showcases that just so that we have that on file of what you're going to be doing for the county yeah there well first of all there are some notes on the plans with the types of signage that's going to be installed um if you'd like uh a rendering or something we Sate that Asing you mean the count you mean that what they testify tonight with the count about the road and how you going to improve the sign the right of to the right for reading Ridge or whatever yeah we we can supply those details as a condition if you'd like I I don't know precisely what you'd be looking for but if Council wants to word Smith a condition we we'd be happy to comply we get the I'm gonna in a little B make sure I'm not hearing that at all Jackie he said he said when they he gets to the motion he's gonna set the list of all conditions there you go all [Laughter] right I also have never heard him uh accused of being uh not loud enough so okay so we ready vote yeah Joe why don't you just take that mic off the stand that one's yours yours only the next application so do you want want us to vote first well somebody has to make a mo did was the motion made no can someone make a motion Taylor am I voting tonight no okay well I'm the alternate too that's why I wanted to I'm making the motion Russell made the motion second Lindsay second it and the the motion is to approve the application for D4 variance related C variances and the applic uh with the following conditions all conditions set for in the board engineer report dated December 15 2023 all conditions set forth in the December 15 2023 uh report from the board's landscape architect that's my understanding that the County's inputs have been incorporated into the plans already so we don't have to itemize those although I did hear uh a request for signage rendering and that the applicant will condition the appr approval on presenting a signage rendering to the township planner to his satisfaction to his satisfaction correct did I miss anything else I don't think so okay can we get a roll call please chairwoman miss cynia schaer yes Vice chair Mr asso dami yes Mr Randy yes Mr Steve fario yes Miss zy Co brel yes Miss lorett ktina yes Miss Donna Drew yes thank you all for your consideration we're gonna take we're gonna take a five to seven minute break for our stenographer and my apologies to the other applications we'll get started as soon as possible let me just the reality is this yeah yeah I [Music] know know [Music] I get to sleep Tom [Music] [Music] yeah that [Music] yes interesting oh really [Music] yeah [Music] yeah [Music] right as long as she I know [Music] for you fing the meeting back to order um to the last two to the next two applicants uh apologies for that overtaking uh I I did pull the board and we will try and stay later um hopefully it'll only go like 15 minutes later at the end of the meeting but again we'll try to give you your time next applicant on bo uh up is Board of adjustment case number 18-202 3 Carlo Vitali location block [Music] [Music] 4.04% good evening good evening Madam chairman thank you MERS of the board I apologize before you start just a couple of notes again note for the record that Randy block has to recuse himself for this we already talked to him oh oh I'm sorry was that's okay call him and then the other ones is that um the following board members have read the transcript or listened to the tape recordings of previous hearings and that goes for um Board member Miss lorett cistina Miss Donna Drew and Mr James Miller thanks so much so we were here on December 21st we began Our Testimony we have one witness uh to finish up Christopher nuser who's been qualified as an expert in planning and land use as an engineer and a and a professional plan excuse me slow down sorry that's okay so we we were asked to uh go back and look at capturing runoff from the driveway way uh at this project and my my client has done that with Mr nesser and he is also discuss that with um with the Consulting engineer here and so I'd like to have him back on he was already sworn in and I'd like them to just continuous testimony with regard to that those issues that were raised at as to drainage at the last hearing thank you thank you everybody so I'm going to put up did we qualify you Mr n we did okay and I'm still under yes is this picking up no I one of those that's why that one Mark luckily we have an engineer [Music] here say this was this was a good one that one off so it doesn't better yes okay excellent um so we revised the plan uh which I have here marked as A2 I'm going to put it up on the board um a A2 is the variance plan that was submitted um to the board uh this one is revised through December 22nd 2023 which is the date after of the date after the last hearing Chris if you want just take that mic and you're gonna point just making sure that everybody can see it excuse me other copies for the board members he doesn't but just give me one second and I can put on the screen okay thank you say So the plan that you're looking at the original plan uh this is this is just an exhibit so this is updated it's very similar to the plan that you have in front of you the main change is where the plan that you guys are looking at has uh two pipes in the detention system we've made it now three it's a little bit longer uh and that is to accommodate the additional area of runoff that we are now putting into uh into this system so the area we're picking up um which is now on the screen but also here is the the driveway uh as we as Pat talked about as well as a portion of the front yard that drains into that area um kind of a bit of a coincidence after the last meeting uh when we were talking with the applicant uh he had installed a French strain at the end end of the driveway to collect the runoff and run it around uh so it didn't go into the pool area when that was constructed so that that actually already exists so we're going to use that existing front strain system which is pip and stone uh to collect this additional runoff it's about 4400 square fet of additional runoff that we're now collecting on top of the house and directing it into the storm water management system um so now we are collecting 6479 square feet of of area some lawn predominantly impervious surfaces where we're exceeding by about 50300 square feet currently um we did reduce um they're not huge differences uh but we did reduce the impervious coverage by removing the walkway from the end of the deck to the opening of the pool and replacing it with just uh Stepping Stones as well as this pav area here which went to kind of a some raised garden beds in that area um so there's a a slight decrease in the impervious over the existing condition um and a substantial increase in the amount of storm water runoff that is collected and managed in that storm water system system um we had provided that plan uh to your professionals um Mr katarak had sent a memo or an email back on December 29th with a couple of comments towards it um the first was that the um discharge of the system which goes into the rip wrap line swell on the edge of the property uh that we just ensure that it's either discharging directly into the rip wrap into the stone or extend rip wrap from the point of the discharge to the rip wrap so there's no erosion issues we don't have scour there's not soil being transported uh down into the wetlands below and we certainly uh agree to do that uh his second comment was that we just uh confirm the functionality of the French drain to make sure that it's operating the way that it should to collect that water uh and we have um we have no issue accepting that as a a condition that um that it be confirmed and inspected um by by the township uh and then the third was just to make sure because the topography here is not um the entire lot it's only a part pushing a lot to make sure that the um that the runoff from the driveway actually makes it down to the French drain like we say that it does um that if you went to the site you drove past the site you would see that the grade where the driveway is the lwn is up higher it slopes down to the driveway and then slopes back up on the other side so there's not a need to curb it per se it's already being contained uh and running to the rear um the the portion of the driveway that comes to the street and certainly we would make any accommodation to make sure that the water that we're saying is getting into the system does in fact get into the system um so you know those were the three comments yeah I I I can I can concur with that the the if the board recalls the last time this application was was before you um the statements by the applicant were that they were coming up with a system that would provide for retention or DET excuse me Detention of excess storm water runoff due to impervious coverage in Access of the ordinance however the area that was piped to that system they designed was not equal to the amount they were over on impervious coverage so it was important I believe that the drainage area that is contributing to the detention system be at least equal to how much they're over on their impervious coverage so what the applicant chose to do was to tie in the driveway which already had a French drain pipe system to it so the area of the driveway plus the area of the roof now equals or slightly exceeds with that combination of that small reduction in impervious by taking that walkway away so they've removed a little portion of a walkway but they've got a drainage area contributing drainage area to this detention system that is equal to the amount that they are over on their impervious coverage I'm satisfied that what's the number I I couldn't find it what's the number of heart surface right now the percent the what is the percent that we are asking for Relief too yeah what is your proposed okay our proposed is 39.1 two% 39.1 3912 yes and then with with the mitigation where do you bring it with the stor water mitigation so we're we're mitigating we're taking in an area of again 6479 Square ft which is in part impervious predominantly impervious with some law area because we can't segregate it um and again we're 5341 Square ft over what 20% would be so we have um 1100 square feet more in area going into the Basin than we are over in coverage but so but with the storm water mitigation what would the percentage be then so the purpose of the system is so that the runoff the rate of runoff from the property meets 20% maybe said A Better Way the portion of impervious coverage on the site that is not mitigated by this detention system is less than 20% coverage okay the the areas in excess of the 20% coverage for all intent and purpos it's about equal so just everything that's over the 20% coverage now is piped into the detention system so there's a treatment mechanism for everything that's over what's Allowed by the 20% coverage so technically it's going to be it's going to be at that 20% number then it'll be at the 20% number in terms of unmitigated storm water runoff and this just correct me if I'm wrong this you were is this in um is this home in the area that went from 40% to 20% it yeah so so you know the I'm not I don't think you can accurate fully accurately characterize it as by putting it in mitigation it's like it doesn't exist right because because the recharge isn't there however the system that the applicant's proposing is is detaining that water and reducing it over a reduced period so they're reducing they're not recharging the the storm water on the area that's in excess of what's Allowed by the ordinance because they can't with the soil but they are retaining it so that it's managed on the site and what they've chosen to do to get that number to work to get that over 20% coverage in their dra areas they've taken that driveway and the existing pipe system and tied it into this system so what I had recommended was I don't know the condition of that system I don't know if it works if it's clogged what not so I think it's reasonable to have that system have the applicant agreed to um you know demonstrate that that system is still operable whether it it's televised whether it's it's scoped or cleared or flushed out whatever mechanism the applicant chooses to make sure that that French drain is functioning um I think I think that is a is a reasonable condition um for the applicant to demonstrate to the township that that pipe functions they're going to take the Terminus of that French drain pipe that exists and they're going to Route it into this detention Basin so now it'll get tied into this management system and with the topographic information was provided on the plan um didn't show enough information to demonstrate that the driveway didn't run off in any other direction and wasn't captured by this French drain system so the applicants provided some photographic information and I went out and verified it as well too just to make sure that that driveway is drained in so by tying that system into this management system you're proposing plus the roof leaders you've got an equivalent drainage area that's in excess of what the ordinance allows piped through a management system so that's that's a that's an improvement over sheet flow free flowing off the property um there were some discussion with Mr Vella on on the exact location of the discharge point from this management system the head wall that's being proposed the current plan give me the on the date here latest plan was the 20 2 21st 22 22nd so the latest plan still shows the head wall or the discharge point of that pipe somewhat offset from the rip wrap Channel apron so there's a space between the rip wrap apron and the pipe that was is grass area to me that's susceptible to erosion so whether the pipe extends to the rip wrap apron possibly triggers a technical variance for setback or whether the rip wrap is extended from an engineering perspective I want continuous rip wrap between the bottom of the channel and the discharge point of the pipe so that we know it doesn't erode and and just for clarification it wouldn't be a a variance it would be um Township committee approval oh town committee approval right yes right so to avoid the committee approval requirement it probably has to get set back which would mean that the applicant should then extend the rip wrap between the discharge point of the pipe and the channel so that it's all the same Stone surface that would help dissipate that energy and that's that's fine that's acceptable so if they were if that ordinance was never changed from 40 to 20 would they need a variance for this they would not okay but but some I believe some of improvements were uh were subsequent from that change no I understand that I I think everybody who's been here knows how I feel about the change from 40 to 20 but um okay got it are there any questions for this I do have some planning testimony some technical planning testimony that I do want to put on the record at least I will be about it but um I do to not put it on wait we want to ask questions about the engineering sorry yes absolutely so right now you're an engineer yes and so we want to ask if there are any questions from our professionals hearing none from the board yeah there's still members of the public online um just I'm I'm assuming the applicant will be agreeing as conditions to get clean up all outstanding permits and inspections that have not occurred on this property specifically I'm concerned about the notation in the planning document that protein tanks were installed I didn't hear you so I'm specifically concerned about outstanding inspections that were not that did not happen for the installation of propane tanks on the property um and other outstanding like the construction of the deck without any permits and things like that so that they so what you're saying is you want a condition of approval that they bring those items into informance by buing the appropriate permits and having inspections correct okay AG to that it's already in process okay great okay if there's no more questions from the board are there any questions of this engineer um from the from either the audience or on Zoom I understand there's some people on Zoom okay hearing none can we speak to your planner yes he's been sworn thank you um so again I you know I I don't want to Bel this um but again I do want to put this testimony uh on the record here you know as I as I look at this variance um my opinion it's a it's a C2 right this isn't necessarily a hardship I think there is some elements to a hardship in the way that the lot had been developed you know the garage is on the rear so you have a longer driveway than you would otherwise have um but ultimately we're looking at you know benefits versus detriments uh first we need to look at what purpose of zoning we advance we must Advance at least one I think that in my opinion uh we Advanced purpose G which is to provide sufficient space and appropriate locations for a variety uses to meet the needs of all New Jersey citizens and I think this certainly um you know the the coverage that is being requested is for things that everybody considers normal in a backyard uh you know we have a deck we have a pool um you know it's a driveway and a house it's it's nothing that is unusual or particularly large um um and I think also purpose I to promote a desirable visual environment if you had a chance to go see the site uh you would see that it's well kept um it's attractive and it adds to the neighborhood the development is consistent with the pattern of the neighborhood and how it was developed as we've already said uh this was previously a 40% Zone um and it's currently 20% where a number of the Lots are certainly an excess of 20% uh so it's definitely not out of place um secondly we need to satisfy the negative criteria that the variants can't be granted without substantial detriment to the public good and the intent and purpose of the master plan um on an impervious coverage variance um the the potential impacts to the public good are really down to two things we're talking about the visual impacts that this could have by having an excess of impervious coverage on it as I stated I actually think that is a positive uh to the site into the neighborhood uh and the second would be storm water management and again as we just discussed we're managing the storm water on the site down to the 20% that is currently permitted on the site not even just the 23 that was what was legally existing prior to the ordinance change on the site um I I believe Jeff in his letter had noted the multitude of variances that this board has seen for impervious coverage um and um updated it with the um the information for the creater application which my colleague uh presented before you that was a 30,000 ft lot with 41.52 coverage this again is a a 27,000 ft lot with 39.1 12% coverage uh so certainly not outside of the realm of what the board has seen in the past and seen fit to approve not that obviously there's precedent where I get yelled at um as as to the intent and purpose of the Zone plan it's a residential lot that's developed in a manner consistent with the use and the surrounding properties again it's a pool it's a deck it's a driveway and it's a house um The Zone plan allows for clustering as a mean to preserve open space that's how this was created uh it reduces the lot areas it reduces the setbacks but now as opposed to the Past there's no change in the allowable impervious the ordinance permits the standards for a clustered subdivision down to the r six Zone but that's the both standards outside of the impervious and the impervious in the R6 zone is 40% so I think on the whole here um with the addition of the storm waterer management system mitigating the flows from the site discharging it in a safe way um I in my opinion uh this this application can certainly be granted without any substantial detriment to the public good or the Zone plan um and and certainly uh provides a benefit to the neighborhood by having you know a well-kept attractive lot okay any questions to the from the board on the planner any questions from the board any questions of this witness from the from the uh audience what's anybody in that chair over there in that video or that's I was thinking that chair kind of creepy actually but okay the only the only question the only question I have is is really for our engineer and our planner I think we've been um a lot with this applicant um I I think they I I just want to know that you both feel satisfied with the work that's been done and the application what what what the uh the solution is from an engineering standpoint with the stipulations that the applicant confirms the existing drainage is is is hear you with the with the stipulation from the applicant that um they will agree to verify that the existing pipe is working before they tie into the system with that stipulation and the fact that they are draining equivalent area of what would be ordinarily over the coverage limit I'm satisfied that they've done what they can do and they've done they've taken reasonable steps to mitigate the drainage associated with the increase in impervious coverage great Jeff real quick though with Mark so Mark you'd agree that that tying into that system is going to if it if it works and they're going to stipulate that they're going to provide that it works that's going to actually probably be very beneficial at you agree that would be very beneficial yeah yeah because if that's if that's not operable now then it's really not doing anything right cor so by by them verifying that and that it ties in then we've got an improved system just just one I'm sorry a clarification so if it's you know my experience is French strains don't last forever because they do collect sediment and have some issues so if it is not operating in accordance with an appropriate design standard then the applicant would have to provide some modifications to make sure it performs to collect the strong yeah rather than get into any specifics my recommendation was that was just that they have to demonstrate to the township that it's adequately functioning okay so if that is cleaning it out making a repair full replacement or anything in between the gamut the applicant would have to you know provide a functioning pipe great whether it's if if I may uh I didn't want to go into detail because we said we would um we would deal with it but just to assuage the board the the applicant constructed it in a way and is is aware of the need to maintain it and does maintain it there's Riverstone on top with fabric and then the actual stone with the the pipe in it below so that any sediment stops in that Riverstone area so the Riverstone can get pulled out sediment can be removed and it can be you know the Riverstone can go back and now it can be repaired if necessary right and it can be repaired if necessary so it's it's been maintained it would be continue to be maintained so I just it's not something that he put in once and said oh this is great and has never looked at it you know so the concern is well founded and I just want you to know that he's aware of it and and address it right so providing the applicant is agreeable to demonstrating to the township at the time of construction that it's adequately functioning and whatever repairs that means that's up to the applicant you know to the property owner whether it's an easy fix or a or a harder fix or a less than easy fix you applicant has to demonstrate that it's functioning if it's currently functioning now then we have no concerns okay Jeff you have any concerns are you fully satisfied um well the applicant did decrease some of the impervious surface um compared to other applications it could have could have been more but when visiting the site it's the backyard is very uniform the construction is very it's very organized and that and any drastic change would would I I don't know if any anything else could be um could be removed practically but um other than that with with everything tied into the public system and the drainage is that's okay thank you Jeff if there are no more questions are there any comments from the public concerning this application okay uh Council I think uh a closing statement for disclosure uh can't hear you Jeff uh Jeff's Memo from December 21st uh there's an item number 11 which needs to be put into your to provide an asil survey asil survey so we should make a note of that great okay sorry for that that's okay so that's the case and G for the applicant I think um U we we have demonstrated that U my client has acted in good faith to try to mitigate what what you asked him to go back and do we've removed some improv surface not much but um um done what we could there and we've captured the excess runoff um from the driveway that was a big concern So based on the testimony of of of the planner and the engineer um I would uh request that the board approve this application thank you thank you okay so we'll close for deliberation anybody want to start okay uh so couple of items uh I will support this application and what I'm impressed with is um it fits within the neighborhood so it's not something extraordinary they' built uh so I I trust that ien in it but I believe your testimony and that's that's the right thing um and more important uh the applicant has kept the place clean and all that good stuff organized the way Jeff said that's important so so we can have assurance that if anything happen in the future they'll maintain it and uh above all the efforts and creativity even from you uh and Mark to make sure that the storm water came to where it did I know it was uh lot of effort so I want to thank you uh but that was big for me personally uh to approve this application so thank you okay go um I would be in favor of this this uh as as Steve kind of alluded to this type of application is a little bit frustrating for the board um we appreciate the good faith effort um and I would be in favor um appreciate your your effort in coming back I think this is you've been here a couple times and it just has to be I mean 40% down to 20% that was a change and and so we understand so thank you I I'll go um just to add on to what uh miss schaer Mr Dy said um I'm in favor of the application I'm I'm when we say we're frustrated with the uh 40% to 20% that's not a detriment to the applicant I think it's very frustrating for us because we deal with it all the time um but I'd like exactly uh what's being done and the fact that it's being tied into that system is really I think that's going to be a huge benefit I agree with Mark um that we need to make sure that it's functioning and you guys have agreed to all the conditions on it um so and it's it's as Mr DOI say very appropriate for for the uh community that it's in so I'm I'm for the application anyone else okay yeah I would just say I was only concerned about the storm waterer management the runoff situation but um Mark satisfied and I was also concerned about maintenance of the French strain but it looks like that's been addressed and I appreciate the just like it's been said before I appreciate the effort you guys have made to to comply with this and improve the site so thank you and yes I agree I support it okay get make a motion to approve make a motion I will second councelor do you have anything to add yeah the following conditions applicant uh agreed the conditions to confirm the functionality of the drain to extend R from the existing yeah that that that's unbelievable that mic isn't working okay um so with the following conditions to confirm the functionality of the French drain uh to extend and provide the rip wrap from the existing channel to the proposed discharge pipe and to the applicant agreed to bring the property into conformance by pulling uh applying for all necessary permits and inspections and to provide an as built survey can I get a vote chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer yes Vice chair Mr rul dami yes Mr ceve fario yes Miss lindsy K brel yes Miss L ktina yes Miss Donna Drews yes Mr James Miller yes thank you very much thank you have a good night guys okay the next applicant is bo8 case number 03202 3 LS a Pastrana Hernandez and Margarita Arana and apologize for not getting that correct block 71 lot 109 cool Road application is a request of ver ver bated D variant for a second principal use on a property just give us a minute to make sure we have Randy back and um uh Lindsay is Lindsay is recusing herself so she will be leaving what just have to sit up there no we're having a meeting afterwards you have to stay out there okay hey Randy can you hear us Jeff can you hear us yes yep great okay we'll get started in a minute yeah we're U I think it's a break just give our board member a minute perfect thank you animals it's crazy I so and I take notes when I talk so I put on speak what is your that's story we're just gonna wait for we're just waiting for okay you have to practice your voice to project yeah I I okay I believe we're gonna start counselor good evening good evening may it pleas M chairman my name is John I can already tell you Jackie cannot hear you yeah it's probably better it's probably better to sit down so you're closer to see Joe that was much [Music] better may please you madam chairwoman members of the board my name is John Lanza and it's my privilege to represent Mr and Mrs Pastrana in this application it's bifurcated uh we're seeking variances 2D Varian es and a number of C variances for a property that they own and reside upon uh We Are Tonight continuing with the testimony of our engineer Robert clerico uh with certain revisions and uh additional items that he has completed filed with the uh the board additional testimony to supplement his testimony the last time and also to respond to some questions that the board had with that I could call Mr Robert clerico thank you he he's already been under sworn he's been sworn he's given a testimony already and uh uh he's been qualified so with that uh Mr clerico could you just generally describe this the additions modifications or revision you you've done to this application yes the I'm having trouble hearing you yeah Mr [Music] clerico sorry my fault my fault Mr clerico could you please describe for the board the modifications additions and uh new matter that you have prepared for uh the presentation this evening oh yes thank you um yeah the plan was revised uh it's uh mounted over there on the on the left it's the uh submitted to the board it's a revision date of January 19th 2024 and it has not been marked for identification it is not it's the document has been submitted so I'm not sure a colored rendering okay yeah the colored rendering uh is a new exhibit replaces the one it reflects the changes that have been made in in the site that probably should be marked yes okay so then that will be A5 A5 Jackie A5 uh as a result of the discussions at the last meeting and in conjunction with meeting we had with Jeff uh earlier uh in January um we made several revisions to the plan the most notable one uh is that the proposed garage the 900 foot garage we previously had it uh within the building um setback area um which was which was a variance we were doing that to try to meet the front yard setback condition but as a result of discussion it was determined at least was suggest that uh since the existing dwellings already uh violate the uh or don't meet the front yard set back we would preferably move that structure out of the uh flood uh the uh reparan Zone criteria uh and reduce the front yard area so we moved the building forward uh that actually accomplished a number of things it actually lined it up the doors lined up with the aisle basically of the parking area it also gave us the ability to use the area where the building was going to be to have some parking area back there to actually Park some of the larger vehicles uh that the applicant owns and you can hear testimony on later on um as ACC as more of a screen for that particular situation uh the other change here is that the previously we didn't have architectural plans for the house uh those have been submitted you're going to hear a testimony about them tonight but this plan reflects a smaller footprint of the house uh based on the actual architectural plans and the modifications for the driveway that accompanied it uh the revision also allowed us to change the layout of the parking area um we actually have a door that goes into the building so we the parking now is no longer in conflict with that um we previously had some parking right up against the building that actually precluded if cars were parked there it would prude access into where the garage was and so again we kind of rearranged the parking area uh St still maintaining a total of 10 parking spaces for the U for the commercial side of the lot of course the house meets the RSI standed for a two-car garage in the three and a half spaces that RSI has assigned the use of the parking in the garage plus the driveway uh the other changes here where we asked to identify this is a bipoc application so it's not a detailed design but we were asked to identify the limits of disturbance so we took some effort to try to identify where disturbance might occur um there is going to still remain some disturbance within the uh the 75 foot uh setback area repair and setback and that's only necessitated by the fact that we know we have to abandon the existing septic system uh put in a new septic and pump tank and pull a pipe out of that area so there's by default there's going to be disturbance in that area so we've identified that um and we've identified the total amount of disturbance as requested on the property uh which is going to be about 15,800 Square ft so the overall project stays you know below the acre of disturbance or the quarter acre of additional impervious we put this in a major projects concept for storm water management so we're doing our best to minimize the amount of uh disturbance on the site take advantage of the existing buildings that are there for repurposing um and provide the needed building that this uh applicant needs to operate their particular business in rearranging the parking lot we actually could eliminate some of the impervious surface in the corners we made the parking lot more efficient uh in terms of its in terms of its layout uh and the other variances that would remain would really be pre-existing um conditions with the existing building actually encroaching into the U uh Road proposed Road right away we are dedicating as we discussed in the last meeting we're dedicating the additional RightWay associated with u the designation of C Road as a master plan I think it's a collector Road um and we've um indicated the setback that would be required uh if the if the the RightWay wasn't being dedicated plus the additional setback uh acknowledging the the dedication of the right away those were the major changes that we made to the plan uh you're going to hear testimony from the architect about the the dwelling um plans for the uh dwelling unit itself they've also applied provided a more detailed plan of the existing commercial building uh and how it's being used effectively it's a storage building uh would had some offices on the uh the left or east west side of the structure uh that the applicant is going to continue to use two of those spaces for office and the entry area sort of a waiting area uh and I think that's pretty much it as far as the changes um you can also I think mentioned this already you're going to hear testimony from the appan about the five commercial vehicles that they're going that would they would have as part of their business and where they could be parked on this particular property uh there's also the result of that at least five spaces for employees they currently have three employees um the the owners uh really reside in the house so there's actually parking for them associated with the house itself uh and I think that's it as far as the revice plan I think that's it I would turn the uh witness over to the board and your professionals any questions from our board professionals go ahead Jeff go ahead Jeff um one of the things and I apologize if I if I missed it but um you added a dumpster enclosure oh I'm sorry yes no I I neglected to mention that we did show a dumpster enclosure um in the area the most logical place for it would be in the area next to the house I know that's a question guest had as to its viability at that location uh and you were looking for testimony from the applicant as to how that could how that could be used in that particular location um I suppose we could put it also in the front corner of the parking lot it just seemed more appropriate for truck access uh because again this is a relatively small lot um they actually have a a believe they have a dumpster in that particular location now so for garbage truck access for easy access in access to the um the dumpster area and leaving the site it's preferable to leave it where we show it on on the property and that would be enclosed again this this is a bifurcated application so the detailed side plan when it comes in we'll show all the details of the enclosure for the dumpster area it show the details of the septic um being designed it'll show details of I don't anticipate any grading going on with this application but to the extent there would be it would show that um and it would show uh any uh lighting or Landscaping associated with the improvements a lot of the site plan elements here really aren't you know really of the you know on the table so to speak you know right now because the board is just looking at this as a bifurcated application but I think as you heard on the first hearing and you heard tonight you know there's a lot of elements to this site that you know really tie pretty tightly into this layout so I think looking at the layout that's uh the modified layout on the updated plan that Mr clerico has provided I think does go um towards addressing a lot of the concerns that uh Mr Vella and I had raised on the overall layout of the site here too you've got a site that has you know pretty substantial disturbance in the riparian environmental zones you've got the existing office building um which is entirely within uh the no- grading and no building limits right um I would say I I think probably technically uh the proposed Stone areas would still qualify as structures under the ordinance you know so you do have some remaining disturbance within the um environmental stream setbacks the 100 foot stream back stream setback for no structures but you know the only constructed structures that are being proposed is a stone driving surface you know for for for the truck so I think I think as as if I were to compare it to the garage that was originally proposed in the area I think that's an improvement um I I to question the location of the dumpster or the viability in that location I get it from a truck circulation standpoint but if it's going to truly serve the business um then I think you know it may be more appropriate in the other area the one question I would have is and maybe just for um I I I I um I'm grateful to the applicant to provide some uh some general boundaries on the limits of disturbance and I think um the uh the the revised plan shows it's about 15,000 sare foot so I think the applicants made a pretty good effort to try to minimize that disturbance in that area by showing the limit of disturbance and short short of any other changes I think we had a question about the disposition of the existing shed I don't know if there was any clarification on that Mr clerico uh no this the applicant intends to keep it okay as part of an accessory to the residents uh yes yes okay thank you that's all I have so I I have uh two I have two questions uh number one I'm looking at Jeff's report here from January 25th uh 2024 and it's item number four uh so are you guys satisfied with that and I'm I'm asking Jeff and Mark H Jeff can you the it's related to the points you are making I just want to be sure that that has been covered yeah I mean Mr clerico did you testified as to the the permits or um procedure related to uh this project correct correct um any yeah any any action this board might take would be still be subject to uh the applicant obtaining whatever permits they might need from D we did take another look at that repairing Zone uh we had an environmental person within our firm look at it uh we believe actually D would concur it's a 50 foot repairing right away RightWay setback as excuse me 50 foot repairing U buffer as opposed to a 150 uh given the conditions of the fact that it's not a category one stream it's not it's not a trout uh producing uh stream uh and it's not within a mile of any one of those criteria so we we believe it actually qualifies is a 50 we showed the 150 on here because that was a question that was raised so you could see what it would be when if by some chance D says it's 150 um but whatever it is any any permits uh for work associated with this project would be a condition of any action to board take and that's something we would get do well probably post post applying for site plan approval we would identify them as part of the site plan process but the LOI was applied for right no we have not filed but we submitted a wetland report we showed the wetlands we showed what we anticipate as the Wetland buffer but again filing for the actual Loi would would again come with the site plan application as what a jurisdictional determination as what as what a jurisdictional determinations thank you and and in a similar fashion uh item number nine on Mark's report regarding the FEMA the flood lines that they have not been shown on this application actually I neglected to say that they they are shown they are shown on ear um this is a very steep embankment down to the river uh and they're they're on there they're actually for within the [Music] um it appears that they're roughly contained within the banks for the stream okay I apologize I had I had some question on that with the earlier plan um and particularly in in in light of the fact that the applicant was proposing disturbance a lot closer to the Stream cter previously so by by pulling that away I think that that concern is alleviated but that that information would have to be shown on the site plan anyway as well okay and and mark out a just a question [Music] um will those lines be changed based on changing it all given the new DP flood rules yes I'm actually showing both of them on there yeah on the base flood and then the the the two foot additional based on the new adopted inland uh if you look at the upper left corner of the of the submission there's some notes here to that effect again it's a very steep embankment down to the down to the stream and they don't even rise to the level of coming to the top of the embankment okay thank you for the information so so one more for you mark uh I'm reading this environmental Consulting repor and from that it's I just want to make sure I read it right it says there are no issues related to the freshwater wetlands is that your understanding also that that's correct yes yeah they're confirming no issue related to the wetlands and they're basically making that statement based on the fact that that presumes the 50 Foot buffer on the on on the wetlands which is subject to the LOI so I I think and I think that's a reasonable assumption I think based on the information provided the 50ft bumper is more than likely but um I think we have to you know air on the side of caution you know and at least understand and see um what the implications would be with if the um if the buffer were any any any larger but I I I think the U um I I I think the report adequately addresses the high likelihood that the the wetlands would be a 50 foot buffer okay and then the last thing at list from me is uh as we all know cold Road always gets flooded to a point where we putting on gate when there's rain is there anything here they can do to to mitigate our impact related to what they're doing well I think I think some of that really Falls to site plan design and I think it would be it would certainly be reasonable um at the time of site plan should the board agree uh to the use variant to permit this this this you know second principle use on the site um and the business on the site um to you know to provide a storm water management design and possibly address the storm water um from the addition of the residence the and the uh the construction of the garage and Stones all of the added impervious coverage I think it would be appropriate for the applicant to provide a storm waterer management design that would address those increases in impervious we're not seeing that detail here now um and you know there's several methods that could be used to address that but um I think that's certainly an appropriate condition item and condition or or or or or stipulation for site plan application what one of the design labers we're going to request when we come in for site plan approval is to uh retain the existing Stone areas for parking and driveways your ordinance would actually requires to pay to pay them but they're there they're functioning as a stone area this is a relatively low intensity it's not really subject to the public coming to the site it's the owners uh employees and vehicles that are essentially using this so that's one element in order not to exasperate the situation just to maintain what we have [Music] um and again we we're not again this is a this is a variance so there are obviously things the board could could require um but under the normal generic situation this doesn't under your ordinance doesn't rise to the level of requiring storm water management Mr about the get close I was wondering about how much truck um kind of usage by the owner will take place I guess I'm a little worried about the fact that this is going to be a stone driveway can it hold up to whatever types of trucks and trailers um moving around on that driveway and is there adequate turning radi space for those vehicles and the traffic report doesn't talk about how many um of the trips are going to be truck traffic and I think that um all goes back to can that um surface hold up yes uh my opinion it can hold up again that would be more of appropriate request at the site plan stage um but the board did ask for a list of the vehicles on and the applicant's going to present that there are five vehicles um that are commercial vehicles that they use for their business uh and again that would leave a total of five spaces for the if they had up to five employ employees for parking on this particular site it's a type of and I think I I think I touched on this in the traffic report it's a situation where the employees come in the morning Park their vehicles get into the commercial vehicles and leave the site come back at the end of the day and you know to the extent that the vehicles don't even the commercial vehicles don't even stay on a job site which in some cases again you'll hear testimony from the applicant on the operation but uh yes I I believe again we're not here seeking the design way tonight but we I'm just pointing out from the storm M standpoint when we do come back with the site plan we are going to ask that for um for a design waiver I would just make a note that when you do come in for the site plan approval maybe bring the size of trucks commercial trucks that will be on it I think you're going to hear that tonight actually but yeah okay we have some photographs great one additional question regarding the septic system I know you provide a testimony that it has not been designed at this point is there any issue with the county or Municipal Health Department having two separate uses going into one septic system that is not normally an issue we did do soil testing here so we confirmed that we have a viable location for septic we just haven't designed it based until we determine what the use is going to be okay it'll be a mound system though I would assume um more than most likely it could be um one of the one element of this is that the existing commercial building has some sort we think it's just a just a seepage pit behind the building is how it's been functioning uh we're going to eliminate that and we're going to tie that in so some of the disturbance that's occurring within the stream corer of buffers under your Township ordinance um as a result that we're abandoning the existing septic system and we're going to put in some again we have to design this but it'll be a collection to a some sort of a pump tank that'll pump up to the septic tank that we're going to do for the in and again that point that may be a a gravity design and maybe a pressure dosing so we don't know yet but we believe we can accomplish all that within what we've shown is a limited disturbance that's great and and jumping back to the just the the parking and traffic for a second just because I know that was the concern of the board you know the testimony we've heard to date regard it was with respect to operations um you know relies around um this just as an office with garaging Warehouse spacing so just from the plan I see that you've provided um you require three and a half parking spaces for the residents you're proposing um you're proposing to provide um fre spaces for for the uh excuse me you're proposing three and a half spaces at the residence itself correct correct and then and then your your business area or the office area you have the office in the garage those in dependent of themselves require a total of 10 spaces and you're providing 10 counting the garage in the truck area correct well depending on how you calculate the park we're looking at this commercial building as a storage building uh it happened it this previously was a professional office I think occupied by an engineer uh most recently um but the applicant is just going to use some of the office space that was and and convert some of what was Office bace into storage space his predominant need for the building is for storage uh and the fact that they there's some officers in there and you'll hear some testimony on this the uh there's only you know the two owners would just have an office in that particular area so again we're looking at this as a storage building that happens to have some office space in it but if you want to recalculate the whole thing it's an office building it just changes the uh the the demand but either way we we have the parking to cover it right I guess what I was really getting at was I think it's important to look at this from a use variant standpoint that the the the office area the business area and that driveway the parking requirements and demands be separate from the residential so that you know they they separate you're not relying on the aggregate of the parking areas say oh yeah we meet the parking if you count the two spaces we got at the residential house I think it's important that they stand alone and from what I can tell it looks like they do that based on your calculation so that's they're actually almost double counted because the the owners right again are part of the the employees but more than most likely their vehicles will be up at the house but from a you from a from a use variant standpoint and the potential that the business might be some other entity I think they have to stand the long right and they do Mr CL clera did you recalculate to um to account for one use again for the business use so the township doesn't it doesn't differentiate so you have the the business office uh use and the warehouse use correct and I I calculated them separately actually I just realized T I had actually over calculated I looked at the architectural plan and realized that um I had the numbers a little bit backwards so there' be 977 square feet of office space um which under your ordinance would require four spaces and there's actually only 1329 square feet of Warehouse which would actually less than one space those two together would be five um you know spaces so it would be actually a total of if you round off the the three and three and a half to three for the resident you only require I say nine actually would be eight I mean you can calculate it a little bit differently and get a higher number but at the end of the day we have 14 spaces so okay no matter how you calculate so your paring requirements for the business is based on a calculation of just say those Square footages again how how many how many square feet of office well on the plan before you I said 1173 sare fet of of office it's actually if you look at the Architects plan it's actually 977 um and I have 2,000 ft of office I have no idea how I got that number because I looked at again the architect's plan it's only 1329 uh square feet of office the the overall building is about 2,000 square feet so you're you're a shade under a th000 square feet for the office so that would require four parking cor at 1,000 square feet you're a hair over the two you're about 1300 square fet with the warehouse with would require so you're just under one space one yeah just under one space So So based on the the the split of office to space to warehouse space in the building per the architectural plans you require a total of five parking spaces correct um for the audience and you are providing a total of 10 10 spaces plus two truck spaces no the the two the two that's there's four and four and then there's two in the back so there's 10 ability to park 10 Vehicles outside of the structure part part of the garage they're building they're going to have equipment and stuff in there that might be vehicles too so so so you're not proposing we're not counting we're not counting that your your TW Bay garage is not counting those as parking space no I'm not okay so so you're providing in you're meeting the ordinance requirement based on the uh the current use of the building as part partial office partial Warehouse right and we're looking at this from a practical standpoint the Jeff has a point we don't calculate it that way I believe still he still he still didn't uh meet it because he needs the W whatever calculation of the warehouse needs to be incorporated with the business well we we are maybe we are doing primary use you can't you can't uh separate it so what what are you what are you suggesting here the whole building be calculated as an office the whole building and uh yes yes that's how the ordinance reads so considering so if you have a manufacturing use you don't differentiate the office space that's Incorporated with the manufacturing calculation this isn't a manufacturing situation it's just an example that's what the ordinance has an example well like I said if if you take if you if you take the whole building okay so so the entire building is 977 Square ft plus uh 1329 square feet so the whole building is 23 a little over 2300 square feet how are you suggesting what what the use of we or what parking ratio should we use for that so if you're stating that it's it's a that it's an a business office it should rely on the business calculation which would be four which would be four spaces per thousand or uh I mean I mean Mark if you have any uh suggestions it would you could also it would also follow I mean in this case you're really using it for storage but it's a business so I don't I don't know if you use the vice versa uh calculation if it would well con conservatively if the conservatively if the office the the entire structure were calculated as an office use at for per thousand you you would require 9.2 spaces right so I think I think what we're looking at here is we're looking at the applicant has provided sufficient parking based on the building an office using the most conservative ratio they provided 9.2 spaces so again we're not talking about site plan I think but I think it is important that based on what the applicant showing is that um I think it's important that they demonstrate that they can provide what the ordinance requires in terms of parking Supply on the site Standalone not relying on the residents as part of their justification for the used variant right I I believe I believe we've done that and more from a more practical standpoint we've actually looked at the applicant's business the type of vehicles he has how he operates just to confirm that irrespective the ordinance that we have enough parking spaces for his business to function so I think we have it covered both ways yes and our planner will address this also yes okay any other questions for this witness okay we ready to go next witness and just is there anyone in the public that has questions no no okay before you go on I just want to make a note I totally forgot in the beginning the following members have read the transcript or listened to the taped recording of your previous hearing and that is for Board member Miss Lorette ktina Miss Donna Drew and Mr James Miller thank you my associate is going to take the next CL call Jeff fer my associate is Robin Wright um Mr fler um wasn't here last time so uh does he need to be sworn in yes can you please raise your right that the testimony you're given this matter is the truth the whole truth I do can you please state your name spell for the record uh Jeffrey fer f l EI i s e r that hear that no I didn't f l e i s h e r Mr cler could you describe your um your background as an architect and your professional qualifications uh yes I have a bachelor's in architecture from New Jersey Institute of Technology I've had an office architectural practice in Clemington burough for the last 27 years I'm having difficulty hearing you I'm I'm licensed in New Jersey Delaware and Pennsylvania um I've appeared in front of boards throughout New Jersey and Pennsylvania over the last 27 years any questions for this expert seeing none will accept them thank you thank you um Mr fer did you prepare a set of architectural plans for uh the applicants yes I did and uh are those the uh the plans identified as A1 through A4 that are on the the pedestal yes and they were submitted to the board correct yes can you describe those plans um the the plans are um made up of the existing house which encompasses about a th square feet um we have an addition of an additional 2700 square feet at the rear of the house the existing house in the front is a two-story building approximately 21 feet in height to the peak and the proposed two-story addition is approximately 25 feet to the peak um as part of the design and try to preserve the existing house I don't know why I'm having trouble difficulty hearing this sorry um I'll put my mouth closer to the microphone um I also um designed it so that it had a front porch covered front porch restored the front porch on the original house um and we also removed the one story Edition that was in the rear of the house um the new building sits on that footprint uh the existing house do you know about when it was built I I don't know um I believe it's to be approximately 18 50 somewhere in that and um and that uh house is within the setback to the road it's fairly close to the road correct yes it would have been built prior to any setback requirements and so the the addition is also in the setback but that's a condition that's almost necessitated by right to connect to the existing house yes okay and um you also um and this this uh existing house is going to be used for residential purposes yes okay and um you also um you also looked at the existing building there's an existing commercial building on the site correct yes and I I drew the um floor plan for that and also um Drew an elevation showing the proposed garage door that they want to add in the middle of the building and can you describe the um the layout of the uh the proposed layout of the changes that you made uh for this uh we're looking at exhibit a uh not exhibit A4 but page A4 of the architectural plans yeah the only little change to the building is in the approximately the center of the building um we added the garage door that I mentioned and um made that a storage area uh the rest of the building remains as it was Prior okay and um can you describe um the interior of the building the layout and the interior the building that that you're proposing um yes so at the main entry you enter into open office area um there are three other offices off of that front area and then there there's a two storage areas to the to the right there's a bathroom facilities and a break room okay so the um the only modification to the building is the garage you said correct that's cor and that's to enable the business to just get access to the items being stored correct correct and just one small office is that correct or is there a road well I think we have three offices and and one open office area all right um and you're compliant with the the uh the only um variance necessitated by the buildings um is a setback for the existing house that's right yes the the the house otherwise complies with all height and uh F requirements and this um this building is um uh an existing condition um so we're not uh making any kind of to the exent there's any kind of setback issue we're not making any of that worse correct that's correct um I have uh no further questions the applicant I know this is not the site plan um meeting but I see that the house has six bedrooms so my assumption is is when you come for the site plan the septic would be sufficient to meet how many bedrooms you have in the design of this yes absolutely yes okay does any just a clarification though it's it's I'm not sure if it's six or seven bedrooms well yes on on the plan I do have a study bedroom potential in the in the basement that would be a seventh bedroom okay and then the existing bedroom on the first floor in the existing part of the building that's staying as well that would remain as a bedroom yes currently a three bedroom home did they say did you guys say that the septic system is going to be a mound system it depends well it hasn't been designed yet so I'm not sure I was I wasn't sure if that was DEC I I know there was a little bit of discussion about it I I believe the location is shown on the site plan or the the intended location any questions from our professionals I have one question question I have one uh you testified that the use is residential could you confirm that it's single family I yes it yes it's it's single family it has one kitchen it meets all that criteria for single family yes okay thank you okay uh just noting there's no one seems to be from the public no one online from the public okay all right so how do we proceed the applicants they have more you have more yeah the applicants themselves my apolog get through the experts uh first so we now want to call the uh Margarita on behalf of the applicants I think they previously testified correct no no we they were okay and you're still under oath you recognize you're still under o okay and could you state your state your name Margarita pastr and um Margarita do you want G have you spell it okay M A my whole name my first name or my last name my first name is m a r g a r i t a my last name is p a s t r a n a okay and um uh uh when did you um when did you buy this property um we we bought this property um May 2001 uh 2021 you mean yes 2021 and um uh you uh reside in the house correct yes correct okay and um who else uh resides in the house my husband Lis Pastrana he's right behind me okay and uh anybody else your children yes we have three children okay and mother and my mother-in-law as well yes okay and you also own a business called Evolution pool liners correct yes okay and uh you're here today because uh the property you bought has an existing structure on it correct correct okay um and uh can you you you want to operate your business Evolution cool liners out of that structure correct yes we have a familyowned small business that we would like to run from this property and could you describe the business business what you do what you sell and how it operates yes we basically install liners for inground pools we go to the client's property and we install it there um in our business is small it's familyowned um but most of our clients our business is done like via the phone they don't come to our property we go to their property um to do the job there um basically um we only work with inground liner pools um the liners are custom made to the pool specifications so when the clients call um and we go see the the the pool at their house um and they decide to proceed with um us to do the job um then we order the liner based on the pool specification and uh how many employees do you have three okay and so uh what time do you does your what hours does your company operate Monday through Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Saturday from 9:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. closed on Sundays okay and and your um your employees do they uh work would they work at the site or would they come to the site can you describe the employees will come to our property and then we will leave together in our commercial vehicle to the client's property so that you have your employees come to the site get the material that they need and then they go to the client's property correct yes correct and you said that clients don't go to your property correct yes correct and um you're not planning on putting a sign on your property no we're not okay um I'm going to show you I know there's there are questions about parking so I'm going to um hand out uh a document that I believe uh sure um that we're GNA ask to be marked uh as exhibit A6 I believe uh yes that's the next one okay A6 Jackie need some more uh uh Joe are we gonna Mark the whole thing A6 or you want to do each I I numbered them to make a little more CL but we could could change yeah I I I think it's fine to say that A6 is a series of nine photographs okay okay that's the Margarita uh can you describe uh what aex is are those photographs that you took yes the first picture that you're looking at is a picture of our um white van this is the van that we will basically use daily um in this van we drive to the client's house with our material in there to go do the job okay and uh this van would be parked uh in front of the building in one of the parking spots yes okay and then uh if you turn the page I wrote number two on it just for clarification this is a it looks like a a Ford a Ford white pickup truck okay and this building would also be used this truck would also be used in the building in the correct and you would park it in front of the building in one of those parking spots do correct okay and then um item number three is uh can you describe what that is yes it's a red Ford um pickup truck okay and that would also be parked one of the vehicles that would be used the business okay and parked uh you use one of the parking spots in front of the business for that correct correct okay and uh number the fourth uh uh photo can you describe what that is yes that's a um a dump truck it's a it's a it's also a d truck and is that one of the vehicles that you're proposing parking behind the garage yes okay and that way it would be screened from public view correct yes okay um and then the next photograph what is that that's a Black trailer okay and is that also another item that you are proposing to park behind the garage correct so that would also be shielded from public view parked behind the garage yes and um and you're you're also proposing you know sort of site plan you're proposing some landscaping and correct correct so that you could also Shield The View yes of the parking lot from pool Road correct yes all right uh the six photo that's a blue trailer correct and where are you proposing keeping the blue trailer we're proposing to put um this trailer Inside the um I believe they call it a shed the um the proposed garage the proposed garage correct that's the correct name okay and the next item the next item is one of our equipment that we are also proposing to store in the um garage okay and uh the next item is uh item eight and that's where are you proposing to store that same that's also one of our equipment that we're proposing to store and one in the garage okay and finally the last item same um this item would also are proposing to store in the garage as well okay so the parking lot would basically have uh these kind of street vehicles uh the the dump truck and the the Black trailer would be behind the garage and the equipment would be stored in the commercial garage yes okay and um you're not proposing any uh any other outdoor storage correct correct we're not okay and what are you planning on storing in the building itself in the actual building um we want to store some of the materials that we use like for example when we go to replace the liners we use um vermiculite which is um a bad bag of um a product inside that it's kind of like sand and um concrete mixed together um so we're planning on storing that in the building as well as um if we need like a pump or um a pool light um did you provide yeah we we have these um I didn't send them by PDF but we do have copies of um of uh the kinds of things would probably be stored inside uh the uh commerci building and now we're handing out A7 Jackie A7 we can share that's oh you know what I have more here yeah sorry I I ask question which is also a series of nine photos yeah photographs byre hey can I ask a quick question on the the last set of pictures yeah I'm just so picture number eight the on A6 so A6 picture I gotta ask 789 what are they used for you're installing liners correct are you also taking the old liner out yes so we take the old liner out but sometimes like if we're replacing a step the old step so we use um for example picture number nine it's small so it fits through the client's um like gate so um we take it in one of the trailers that you saw in picture so for example picture number number six the blue trailer yeah and there we will take for example picture number nine to the client's house and that would help us when we are removing um the step for example so what's eight used for um same thing it's like for Excavating uh sometimes the clients want the pool to be deeper so we can use it for that okay so this is really this is used to really dig the pool deeper not take the lar out yeah this appears like construction equipment for the pool do you construct pools as well too or you do repairs or is it just strictly liners well the majority of our work is liner replacement um our job is seasonal so we only have X number of months in the summer months to work um we can um install the brand new pool if if if we are if we get the job okay so you do offer pool construction as well we really don't promote our business like that when we promote our business is for the line of replacement um to be honest with you from a business point of view for us is better to do Renovations than to actually build a whole pool um when we we do a renovation in a day um if we were to build a brand new pool it would be six weeks so honestly speaking the truth is we make more money renovating pools so that's really what we do during the season because you know you're you're ation for pool liners you you you take measurements at the client's house of the pool for the liner right um and then you order the liner correct yes you don't fabricate the liner no we do not so so the so the liner is delivered either to your is it is the liner delivered to your business or is it delivered to the residents we pick it up at the factory and then we bring it to the actual job site the liners are expensive so we order them I'm sorry I'm I'm having trouble hearing her you have to you have to look more towards me when you talk not towards come a little back from the mic okay how about there a little closer is that is that okay sorry that should be good okay the liners are custom made to the pool specifications so we only order them once we have the job once the client signed the contract gave us the deposit and they're custom made at the factory so the clients get to choose the color that they want um the liner right but but the like The Superficial elements like the coping the the uh the skimmer frame light frames possibly steps all the other let's say trim pieces would potentially be delivered and stored at the we your on site at your Warehouse uh I usually do a lot of the picking up myself right um we don't get delivery if we do get a delivery it might be like once a year yeah that's what that's where I'm going I'm just trying to get a handle on how much how delivery here so there's no raw materials being delivered to the property correct you're just storing extra supplies from orders yes so um we ORD material as needed if we were to keep material in stock it would be um the vermiculite which is the other um right pool Bas exactly so if we we have like a couple steps but we wouldn't have tons of material we do we would have some but now we wouldn't have 30 Liners in stock because until you get the actual contract you don't order those material like you said we will have some skimmers we would have some things in stock but not everything okay the number eight the picture number eight is used to excavate the board not necessarily take the liner out correct um the liners um when once they're old and we're removing them they you can like yeah cut them off basically okay so how many just uh to follow up on the question which was asked your main business is liner installation yes and what you said is sometimes your clients may ask you to renovate while you're doing the line or dig a little further or whatever did I understand correctly yes do you have uh some data for us to say of 100 it's one time or how many times you do that meaning replace the step yeah based on your history um we usually would do if we were to so let's say we do 60 liner a season for a small company like us that's a lot um so if we were to do 60 liner a season we would maybe replace let's say 10 steps so you would do escavation in 10 of those places it's not just do the excavation the steps they're Mountain like for example if the patio the client's patio has C so the step it's like attached to this so you would have to cut every move so so it also includes landscaping and all well that's my question if you're Excavating a pool let's just say you come to my house and I say listen take the liner out but I also want you to uh make the pool two feet deeper you're going to excavate that which means you're going to take out the concrete or whatever it is on the on the base no no no because the pools that we work with their in ground liner pools so the outside of the patio like the cement that we're not going to touch our work is going to be inside your pool understand but you're going to go into the ground right and make it deeper yes and then we use this material the vermiculite on the ground on the inside of the pool but if you're doing if you're doing step replacement you have to take out a portion of the deck to reattach the steps correct yes we will cut um I want to say six inches so would it be fair to say that you're It's Kind it's more of a pool Restoration company which includes liner and other incidental repairs to the pool would that be a Fair statement uh yes I would say Renovations like liner placement Renovations it appears to me that the type of equipment here is more so some of the larger equipment here is more akin to doing more extensive repairs Beyond liners liners can be done um can be delivered on site they usually you know fit within a pickup truck they're folded right um there's you know a series of pumps it's mostly handwork with the with the it's hard it's harder to carry it into the backyard than it is to do anything else basically when Bas you see but um it appears to me some of this equipment would be repair so I think you know maybe the board should look at this is this is more of a pool restoration operation with the does that change the application Joe or no Joe does that change the application I don't know yeah like still okay okay and and I'm saying that in in the sense that you know I I I I think if if the if the applicant's seeking a use variant um and you're trying to describe this operation here you're trying to determine the appropriateness to this I think you know going in with a very narrow scope of the business you know kind of handcuffs the applicant a little bit here I think if if it if it if it's looked at as more of this is these are the types of things we do whether it's once or every job I think you just need to better understand that so that we know this equipment comes in because some of the concerns that have I know Mr Vella has these concerns is if the business is supposed to be done by pickup truck and then suddenly a back ho shows up on the job on the on the on the project the perception could be that you're doing more than what you're permitted to do so I just think we want to be clear as to what the scope of your operation is and the type of equipment that you have I don't think we want to prescribe it so narrowly that yeah it becomes a problem yeah it only helps that so only helps them that's kind of where I'm going ahead you want can we swear Mr pastr no he's soring he's sing okay just identify yourself for Jackie uh Lis Pastrana one of the applicants um and then just spell your first and last name okay uh Louis Lis uh last name p a s t r a n a um I see where you um trying to get an explanation about the equipment uh since we've been doing all this we've been really honest and I think you know we're going to keep it the way we are when we first opened Evolution pool liners five years ago which was my wife idea uh we bought equipment thinking about building pools we did build two pools in 5 years but we bought equipment then after two years that we were in business we realized that it was better to do liner replacement and that's what we concentrated in We Own the equipment that was why we have it normally we don't take them out every day you're going to see they're going to take it in the trailer to bring it to we the only one we move out is a little mini excavator and these are like mini excavators we're not talking about big BOS or anything like that I do have a Skit Steer which again we probably use once last year that's it what I was trying to ask um we have it we're not going to we're not trying to get rid of it cuz so expensive to buy it so if we do expand in the future we're already ready with what we have because the the plan that we have is that my kids will own this and that's why I just want them to be ready well I think that's where I'm going with that because if if you have other equipment that has broader capabilities than just a line of replacement and you're seeking a use variant to permit this operation I think we want to be clear on what all the potential operation could be because you could be faced with a narrow use variance where you'd have to come back if we wanted to expand the use for repair so I think it sounds to me like a liner and pool repair I think that would be that would give them better options I think that would give them better options so in that vein just you follow my line of thought for a second you know if you were to build pools or to do more extensive repairs to the pool uh to an existing pool is the basis of the operation essentially the same meaning your employees arrive at site in their own personal cars and leaving your equipment and do all of the work on the customer site that operation wouldn't change would it will not change that will not change right so it's not like you're driving the backo down the street you're not doing construction on site so so I think if it's called a border pool repair Liner Company yeah and has this types of equipment and the parking is provided I think that gives the applic a little bit of room to expand if the board were favorable to a use would it help them if they wanted to start building pools again if that's something that they wanted to do more than two in five years or whatever it was I think if the nature of the business doesn't change it doesn't change the scope of your variance and your application right I think because it again it's the scope of you know most pool companies store their equipment on site um you know whether it's Surplus materials from other job sites or just ordering in bulk to be more economical um and all the work is done at the customers site so I think that doesn't change the scope of that operation I think where it could become a broader scope of work would be which I would maybe the board would want to consider a limitation on would be a lot of pool companies will also sell retail you know supplies from their site and maybe that's where you want to draw that distinction but I think narrowing it whether you know they their operation could be um specific to pool liners and that may may be their most lucrative aspect of their business or their most common aspect of their business but it doesn't preclude the other components and that may be too fine a line to draw here okay understand yes yeah okay I I do have another question first of all thank you so much for being very exactly right very open and uh bringing all the things really appreciate that so in that area um obviously there are a couple of farmers or right uh the egg whatever they have and all that my question is are your trucks uh larger or about the same size as whatever else is going on there because after all it's a very narrow street right cool Road and also concerned about the neighborhood I know you talk about where you guys are going to park but when you're on the road is it similar to other trucks and what you see in that road or this is different it is similar to other people use okay so the other businesses in that District yes okay and there's a a plumbing business pretty close by too yes you're fairly close to Route 202 I'm sorry I'm having problems hearing you I'm not hearing you they said there's a there's a plumbing business nearby yes GPS right yes and you are the first one in right so even traffic wise you'll be the first one in and out of the 20231 highway is that correct it will be the second one second one yeah you're not proposing any retail sale on site right and you're not proposing any outdoor storage no correct okay and um the uh the existing the residence is going to be for the use of you and your family correct all right one other for the material anything hazardous no no hazardous you're not doing like any heat pumps or anything like that or just no unless like we sell one but we don't storage anything like that because they're so expensive so but I guess Mark that would be part of like an accessory like what you were saying right yeah right if they were to construct the pool you know a lot of that stuff in my experience gets delivered to the to the C site it doesn't actually come to the shop here it's usually the incidental things but uh there would be no manufacturing on the on the property there'd be no assembly on the property so it's strictly storage of materials and storage of work rated vehic Les off hours yes and then during the work hours it would be storage of employees Vehicles correct so yeah so I think that would be I think that's where you kind of make make the distinction as opposed to so refined to this specific business but you know if if uh if a light or you're replacing the skimmers you doing landscaping work on top of it or no no Landscaping work so just it would just be like the deck you do the concrete repair work if you replace the step what do you that in that's it minimum just just just whatever you need to put the step back in right okay and coping Replacements things like that okay any question I have a question about the uh existing liner how do you dispose of that the one that you're the old liner will go in the garbage um container that we have on the side of the property the dumpster the dumpster the dumpster and that will that will suffice the the uh the size of the liner yes the liners they're small I actually um in the second package I have a picture I don't know if you can see it I sent it to it's um you got talk to that Mich the second picture Jeffrey of the second packet second picture of A7 would it be would it be fair to say that would it be fair to say that a liner is typically when it comes in a in a in a when a ship it's about the size of a refrigerator no it's smaller you look on the 87 the fourth picture that's a picture of a liner they're usually maybe like four feet high and the weight depends on the size of the pool so it could be 100 PB 200 lb that's it they're nice and folded at the factory so it's this one yeah maybe size like a washing machine right something like that even smaller yeah and then the the old one what do you do you cut up and bring back in pieces and throw it out yes y you see that gray cart it's kind of like that size the Box you see that yeah really yeah just lift with your legs because they are heavy yeah yes they are heavy and also um if it was a concern when we caught him at the customer house we actually put them in bags because we try to be as neat and and clean as we can so we don't just take pieces and we they're flying all over so they're all comeing in black bags and we don't standard garbage break yes all right any more [Music] questions yeah I guess my only question is are related to the some of this equipment and turning radiuses now that some of it's going to be going into garages I guess we have to deal with that at site plan yeah yeah I would say that's probably a site plan issue yeah there's yeah I I think the the use variant piece here is is looking at you know this is the number of and typical type of equipment that would be housed on site then the applicant would have to demonstrate that that can be accommodated on the site as part of site plan I don't I don't think it's independent though what you say I don't I don't think it's independent of site plan because like the previous bated use variant of of The Shanty application all the variances and design waivers were dependent on that bifurcated D variants but this is a separate application but it's it's related I'd say it's related I think yeah I would agree it's related but I think there's some details here that that really need to be hammered out s plan I don't think we have sufficient detail I I would want to see I would recommend you know I would want to see a truck turning radius for the low for the for the trailer and the lowboy um on on the site during site plan and that's just not not been provided as part of the use variant so I don't know that I don't know that that's necessary I think it's important um but I don't know that it's necessary for the determination on the use variant it's just a question of to me you know I think it was more important to Define what it is and it meaning what's the business right you know Jeff you okay with that yes yes and and if I could jump in because um before there was realization that there was going to be continued testimony chairwoman asked next next steps and I we're eventually going to be getting there and I'm looking in light of this conversation I'm looking at your report Jeff where under the variance relief you say it appears C variance relief will be requested at this time and in my mind I saw the application as just the 2D variances and C variances being in connection with site plan but I yeah it deferred yeah so um uh I'm looking to you for your input on that and then I also want to hear from the applicants Council in terms of to make sure everybody's on the same page so we know exactly what we're doing because I think I don't know I think it was briefly addressed at the last meeting of whether or not it was just the D or the C and I don't know if the applicant has confirmed that or if it was so I think where where it was initially left off was D and C but I don't know if that's what the testimony was but but if but but if the applicant were to defer the se's you wouldn't object right Jeff no no okay yeah because I I I think you know we could come up with a list of C variances here right and then when they come to site plan those C variances could change and I think that muddies the muddies the application right I think the acknowledgement agree that's exactly what happened with the The Shanty application is that uh there was a condition stating that there would be no further C variances or design standards so it limited the design aspect of when they eventually went in for site plan approval so yeah and that's and that's really difficult to Define when we're not looking at all the parameters for to to to D Donna's point I mean it's it's it's we we would need all those details if we were to try to articulate all the C variances and I think an acknowledgement that some C variances are going to be required for for example the existing shed is going to be a c variance right that that that remains on his site but to try to pin all that down before we have a site design I think is premature to me it's an acknowledgement that there will most likely be some SE variances the applicants engineer testified that you know to address storm waterer Management on the site during site plan they anticipate you know seeking waivers for Paving the parking lot so I think again those are all going to fall under waivers or or variances at some point in s plan too hard to determine now I think it focused just on the D's and the use unless the applicant wants to articulate more um no we we did uh initially apply for both DNC and notice for DNC but in light of your comments um if the board feels it appropriate we would defer the see the site plan if that's i' hate to box you into something that you can't satisfy later on yeah I'm willing to to seek the D variants at this point and are the applicants understand that they have to come back to this board with a site plan where they will seek the various SE variances that you know we have previous that that list May shrink or grow we don't know yeah okay okay so with that being said where are we because it's late we have one more he says he could be quick we have a planner can can I on okay come on no [Music] Jack you need a break want to take like a half an hour break and come back no she wants an eight hour break so she wants to go to bed okay um uh I am I am under okay Mr REM acknowledges that he's under oath Mr REM can you provide the board with your background as a planner yes uh good evening uh chairwoman and board members would say members of the public but there aren't any um my name is Mark Rema 2024 marks my 44th year in the field of planning uh in the state of New Jersey I'm licensed as a professional planner and a landscape architect um with regard to my educational attainment excuse me you're G have to spell your last name r you're going to have to spell your last name r e m s a first name is Mark with a K so with regards to my educational attainment I have a Bachelor of Science and environmental planning and design um uh I have a master of city and Regional planning and I also have a master of Business Administration with a concentration in finance um all of those degrees are from uh various uh uh parts of ruter University um I've appeared before numerous planning boards and zoning boards throughout the state of New Jersey including uh this board probably back in the early 90s so I have to give you my new credentials uh or updated ones um I've also been uh qualified as a planning uh expert of the New Jersey Superior Court and currently I serve uh three municipalities uh as as their planner any questions we'll accept you as your expert thank you right Mark could you review the uh the criteria for the Deep variances and and explain uh why this application meets it yes so um I I reviewed um U Bob's um uh two concept plans um I reviewed the township master plan and the township zoning ordinance I also visited uh the site uh a couple of times and I've also reviewed uh um uh Jeff's and and Mark's um um review reports U as well so if I may um because I know time is late and I'll I'll go through my my uh testimony um we've heard a lot of description about the property um so uh and we also heard a a a a detailed description of of the operation proposed for the the property so and right now uh the property is current use is a single family residence and there is an empty um uh commercial building on the property and uh there's been two principal uses on this property for a very long time and now we're proposing to change one of the principal uses uh and that's that commercial building um also uh it's important to understand the topography here um uh uh cun road is the high point and everything slopes towards the river in the back um and uh if you've been to the site or driven past the site you would see the commercial building um you really don't see it that that easily if if you're passing and going east because uh it's down in a hollow and if you're coming West you don't see it at all because there's some excellent um uh hedge R very thick uh between the uh building uh and the gravel par current parking area and and the road so this is in the R2 agricultural residential Zone um uh actually Jeff in his last memo did an excellent job giving you a history of of the changes of zoning at one time this was a a commercially zoned and then it was moved back um so this abots the B2 Zone to to the west and then surrounding it is the ar2 zone so in terms of the adjacent uses to the property it's very important to understand what surrounds the property um I always start with the North and go around uh to the West so to the north um it's essentially uh open space it's uh uh Woodland and it's um farther north is is Farmland to the east is a small triangular piece of property uh very small and it's wooded across the street is very large very well-maintained agricultural field um and then to the West um is Woodlands but that is actually part of the uh one the the Hyundai automobile dealership property um and in in the B2 zone so um I'm not going to belabor the proposal but I I do want to talk briefly about the parking and actually Mark the series of questions he just asked puts light on this he asked is this storage of material is this storage of equipment this is storage of parking of of the employees parking so essentially the building that we're proposing is a storage building with a couple of uh office spaces and you heard the number of employees they're all field people so this is not a typical office building it's basically for margarita and Lewis uh to to run run the um Administration and paying of the bills and ordering the material and taking the orders uh uh from uh the potential client so it's so it's really a storage building with an office it's not an office with storage so and and Jeff is absolutely right the way your ordinance is written if for for a single particular use it's you calculate the parking all for the one and if we calculate it for storage even though there's some office in it um the parking demand uh under the the the ordinance is very very low uh I C I calculate because it's it's 230 um 200 I'm sorry 2337 square feet of that building and then if we even added on the um garage for storage of equipment we still we end up with u almost 3,200 square feet and that calculates out according to your ordinates 1.65 uh spaces or 1.6 spaces and so you round that up to two but you heard the practicality of the of the application and that is uh we need a few more spaces because we've got three employees um and and maybe possibly uh five in the future and and Bob explained that he's proposing um uh uh 10 spaces and then of course the residential is absolutely correct it's separate um and we don't add that on uh to to make up for any parking so in other words there's sufficient parking here for this particular use that's being proposed for this particular site okay so um and also uh the property has has its constraints you know if you look at the map uh the River cuts diagonally through the back of the property there's a very steep slope that goes down the elevation changes at least 12 feet if not more in spots um so um uh so that pushes the U proposed uh use even though it's an existing building it keeps everything closer to the road um I'm not going to go into the SE variances uh but but uh we did listen to you last time took your guidance and moved that um uh proposed garage closer to the road and the benefit of that now is it creates a screen down in that Hollow and it helps protect the the public view from seeing what's being done uh operating in the back there which is a benefit by the the way so in terms of the uh use variants there's two one is a commercial use on on the property it's Zed for um residential and the other one is that we have two principal uses just as they've always been but now the one principal use the non-residential is changing and um I think Mark did an excellent job describing helping describe uh the and flesh out what the operation is the pool liner with the the pool renovation type of construction activity I think that was excellent so let's go into the uh proofs the positive criteria uh the first is to promote the special reasons for for uh zoning um njsa 40 col 55 d-2 and I'm going to go through the small letters and I will paraphrase uh each one that I believe uh this application promotes um one one is um uh C to promote adequate air light and open space and as you can see there's very little change happening on this property um yes the existing home is being enlarged but um other than it violating a front yard setback which we'll determine that site plan but it meets all the other site uh setbacks um in terms of the existing commercial building that's not changing at all that's staying the same and pretty much the gravel area is staying the same except it's going to wrap around the back of the uh proposed 900 square foot uh garage so in essence um we we're providing sufficient light air and open space uh on the property for the proposed use um G to provide sufficient space and appropriate location for a variety of uses one of them is residential and the other is is commercial so this is a commercial service there's no retail there's no visiting of clientele uh but it is a type of service that that is needed you heard Margarita say they do 60 a year uh uh so that's 60 clients within the region that will be served uh to promote a desirable visual environment um the architecture you saw that the concept there very attractive concept that's going to be uh added on to and and I I agreed with with Jeff there's about um 1850s style of architecture on the existing building and then the other building which is low-lying not going to be increased in size clean up the uh facade um and maintaining that that healthy um uh hedro that now is a visual barrier to to the back of the property um also um Jay and Jay talks about uh a number of things but also to prevent urban sprawl and the degradation of environment through proper use of land so this is really a reuse of of of an empty commercial office type building it's going to bring it back to use uh we're not um uh developing a blank vacant piece of property farm field or Woods or something like that this is already exists um M and that also speaks to the more efficient use of land and same reasoning of by described before can be applied here this is the ReUse of an existing building and an existing site that's had two principal uses for a very long time um and so then I come back with all of those being promoted I always come back to a a is to promote uh the he public health safety morals and general welfare and if you uh look at all those together that I just described I think this application does that the second half of the uh positive criteria uh test is the site suitability is this site particularly suit um pretty it's evident to me that um this site is suited for it because U it was a uh two principal use building uh um two principle used lot um I believe the um type of operation that's going to be proposed here is very low intensity of use um no no visitors to the site other than the employees uh very low traffic intensity meaning they come in park their car the employees Park their car and then they leave and then uh Margarita said this is also seasonal so there's going to be quite a bit of time where this you can see any activity on on the property so it's only going to be occurring during the the warmer Seasons um also the site as I described is in a hollow in the back it has a natural screen uh H from the public View and with the the addition of that garage screening other equipment that's parked there the property has the ability to really not even know what's happening on the property um and and the proposed garage is kind of supposed to be like a pole barn which you see typically in rural rural areas uh so uh I think this site um uh and it's also uh I think someone mentioned it um I'm not sure dami mentioned it but you're very close through 31 or 202 however you look at um so it's very easy access straight shot within a minute or two right to the to the highway negative criteria um is there substantial detriment to the public and and we have to look at what what are the impacts uh to the surrounding properties to the north I see no impact to to the uh uh uh woodlands and and and and farther away the open space and and uh Farmland to the east East is that small triangular property which is wooded to the South is Farmland as I said a nicely maintained uh farmer and uh by the way um uh if if they're harvesting hay there or they have other kinds of uh uh plows or tillers that farm equipment is really large and so they have them nowadays where they fold up and then they just just about fit farm equipment down the road so their equipment is going to be significantly smaller than some of that large farm equipment that you see working the larger fields and then to the West the West is that wooded area that's part of the auto dealership I see no no negative impact uh at all um so then we have to look at the uh is there a substantial uh impairment of the intended purpose of the Zone plan and Zoning Works um so I I looked at the um ordinance I mean uh the um master plan that's your 2019 reexamination report and it talked about a number of issues and concerns um one is uh mentioning uh sewer watering capacity this is not tying into the public sewer system every this is going to have its onsite well so it's not going to overburden your your U Public Utilities um also your master plan talks about making sure there's compatibility and it doesn't harm the rural character of The ra2 Zone there's such little change that's happening on this property um that and with the addition of a a pole barn type structure for the garage and you won't even really see the the one little low sto one story building in the back um I think it respects and and and complements um uh the rural uh nature uh that starts to begin from from this property heading um East um and it does talk about the agricultural zoning and there's a lot of emphasis in your ordinance about protecting that and because this is such a small lot it's not agricultural it it was always residential and then later um uh was built with a non-residential use I I don't see any negative uh um I'm not going to go any further because I believe the the the um uh proofs have been met I believe that this application the use variance for the um uh commercial use in that residential Zone and the two principal uses can be committed thank you thank you for the opportunity councelor you don't have any closing AR uh statement do [Music] you thank you thank you so um we'll close for deliberation have to take a break so I can just change the paper sure you want to FR apologies for this late night the recording okay go first and keep it keep it short very very short first of all thank you everybody 10 words and thank you for staying late and very great preparation I'm very proud of what you guys are doing as business you need more of that the local area and totally support the usage based on the reasoning which was given anyone else want to speak okay can I get a motion to approve second wait who was the first one James James okay do you have anything to say Joe no no definitely no no all right I can read a room good all right chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer yes Vice chair Mr asul dami yes Mr Randy block Randy I didn't even see him Randy okay we're gonna skip Randy for a second uh Mr Steve Faro yes Miss lorett ktina yes Miss Andrews yes Mr James Miller yes I don't know where Randy went we don't there he is Randy's back Randy Randy what do you vote vote Yes or no for what I missed I thought had a break no problem okay we're [Music] good thank you very much Ry I hope you were joking can I get a vote to adjourn yeah wait wait before everybody goes it's not on the record but Monday the 5th Target is sending in their revised plans I will have it for you PDF wise and then starting that day too you can come pick them up I'll have them ready [Music] okay you don't A5 and then I have yeah raso's doing your job Randy taking the name plates thank you yeah [Music] yeah hey Jeff take care you too Randy okay good night bye Randy how to take a fast break