##VIDEO ID:Va4hqC50IBc## 701 I'm waiting for microphon very sensitive just CLI on that yeah just let me be sure um if anybody on Zoom if they could just indicate that you can hear us if you could just speak now is there anybody on to yeah can someone on Zoom say hello so you don't think anybody can we know someone's on Zoom but we just don't know if they can hear us and we don't know are you are you texting with them now yeah can you try and because we see them that they're on but we're asking them to say something but they're not saying anything are they we don't know she can text the person might our issue or it might be her issue we're trying it looks like R in Township is on mute okay okay this a test Jackie can you hear me excellent I know if you can't you'll let me know but we we got a new battery for this actually Taylor got a new battery for this thank [Laughter] [Music] you look take my jacket off just just everyone feels last the person you the person you're talking to do they know how to get off a mute speaker the whole meeting I'm surprised we can't see them can they can they come down to the municipal building do they have to stay on zo why don't you tell them to come on down you can't any do you know how many people are on zo just two you g to log out and log and come back in yeah why you do that you're G to try and log back in Miss Ingram can you hear us oh oh thanks yes I can hear you she was defitely mom shows up surgery can't walk Cy why don't you to start up because if they're here for the application the application you got you have other administrative things you can do first no but the thing is I can't hear them yes she she she can hear us she can does she speak that's Wayne's mother that's our test can you just ask your mom to say hello say hi Mrs Ingram hi she's definitely talking the thing is we can't hear that and these are new TVs so I'm sorry I'm not necessarily going to play around with them yeah okay I'm again I suggest you start this okay is the recording on still recording okay all right calling to order the Zoning Board of adjustment R and Township New Jersey regular meeting September 5th 2024 notice of meeting okay is that good Jackie can you hear me okay that's what matter it was a little tiny that's why it got it the notice requirements of the open public meetings act has been satisfied by the placing of a notice of this meeting on the Bolton board at the municipal building filing same with the township Kirk and transmitting same to the heon county Democrat the CER news the Star Ledger and the Trenton [Music] Times sorry that's okay roll call please chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer here Vice chair Mr rul dami here Mr Steve farsio here Mr Randy block here Mr Jim Ferrero he's asked to be excused Miss ly cool brel here miss Lor ktina here Miss Donna Drews here Mr James Miller here board professionals board attorney Mr John drill here Township planner Mr Jeffrey ferella here board engineer Mr KES Dari present traffic consultant Mr J Troutman board planner Miss Jessica Caldwell Township landscape architect Mr John Morgan Thomas Boris soner Miss Jackie clap and board secretary Taylor vau here okay moving on to comments announcements hearing none do you want to make a a motion to excuse oh I'm sorry I'm sorry can we have a motion to excuse Jim I'll make a motion you just need to speak you just have to hit the button hit hit the button Lindsay Lindy you have to hold it when you're talking you got you got over your [Music] can I get a roll call to for Jim who who seconded it that was C sorry I'm sorry chair will miss Cynthia schaer maybe that was intentional yes Vice chair Miss s dami yes Mr Randy block yes Mr Steve fario yes Miss Lindy Co gal yes Miss lorett ktina yes Miss Donna Drew yes okay moving on to distribution and correspondence having none moving on to minute meeting minutes excuse me uh July 18 2024 meeting minutes does anybody have any corrections or additions hearing none can I get a motion to approve second can I get a roll call please did you get that Jackie Randy made the motion and lindsy second B uh roll call chairperson Miss Cynthia schaer yes Vice chair Mr R DJI yes Mr Randy block yes Miss lindsy Co brel yes Miss Lor ktina yes Mr James Miller yes okay moving on to uh meeting minutes from the August 1st 2024 meeting any corrections or additions hearing none can I get a motion to approve I make a motion second can I roll roll call please chair chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer yes Mr assou dami yes Mr Randy block Mr St fario yes Miss lindsy Co bral yes Miss Lor ktina yes Mr James Miller yes okay moving on to resolutions for this evening one resolution ring Township Board of adjustment re p- RTL Clemington New Jersey LLC block 38 lot one 325 US Highway 202 application number Bo a-16 d223 resolution memorializing the following one Grant of three D variance conditional 3D variances excuse me conditional use variances two Grant of a D1 use variance three Grant of 10 C2 both variances for Grant of two lighting exceptions five denial of landscaping exceptions and six Grant of preliminary and final site plan approval to allow the construction of a proposed improvements to a retail shopping center for the use by a Target retail store corrected resolution number 20 24-3 C version 2024 40 September September 3 version one and if you could turn to page 33 and just read the very bottom part so we it explains what's going on here sure the above corrected me memorializing resolution was adopted on September 5th 2024 and corrects the date set forth in condition number 13 from having until September 2020 excuse me September 21 2024 to obtain permits to March 20 March 21 2025 to obtain permits and this corrected resolution was adopted by the following vote of el eligible board members right so if you could ask for a motion a second and then call the role of the eligible members please D it a motion so so move can I get a vote you have board board members yeah okay chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer yes Vice chair Mr Russell DOI yes Mr Randy block yes Miss lindsy Co BR gal yes Miss Lor cartina yes Miss Donna Drews yes Mr James Miller yes okay moving on to the applications this evening uh John I'd like to just do number two first yes okay bo8 case number 12-2020 applicant is the fud shop Land Group LLC block excuse me location block 36 lot 65 10 mil milbrook Place applications for a minor site plan with d variant relief for manufacturing use and residential use in a B3 Zone you have something to read I don't can you read the email into the record please yes uh this email is from the attorney for the application Mr Scott and it reads from today September 5th and it states Taylor I had a child care issue today and I'm home workking on my iPhone please accept this email as a request to reschedule the application to December 5th 20124 meeting what date is that what date December 5th December 5th and that the applicant grants the board a Time extension to December 31st 2024 thank you okay so no so we make an announcement that the hearing that the hearing in the fud shop Land Group application number 12-2020 is going to be continued actually adjourned it hasn't started yet it's going to be adjourned to December 5 2024 without the need for further notice is there anyone in the public on the foot shot no with the need with the need to notice oh with the need to notice okay that explains that so if there is the need to notice I know that he gave an extension to December 31 2024 but since it's been adjourned to December 5 [Music] 2024 I know that he granted an extension to December 31 2024 but since the hearing has been adjourned to December 5 2024 maybe the board could say yeah we're going to adjourn this December 5 2024 but ask the or direct the board secretary to tell the applicant attorney that the board wants an extension to January into January 2025 just in case there's a snowstorm or something like that anyone with the board have a problem with that no if he says no then we'll list this thing next month to take care of okay all right moving to the next application for this evening boa case number 05-22 applicant is Countryside properties LLP location is block 74 lot 5.39 359 York Road application preliminary and final site plan with d variants for proposed three multip multiple family residential buildings good evening Mr gromberg good evening madam chairperson members of the board Steven Gruenberg Gruenberg law office on behalf of the applicant Countryside Properties LLC the board will recall there's something wrong with the PA system all over the room every single microphone do you have it set too high okay one one thing on this application just so everybody knows I wasn't here for the first day I watched the video signed the certification so I am up to speed on the documents the review of the of the reports and the testimony that was previous try something if I put my hand in front of this microphone and talk my voice comes out the normal way put your hand in front of the microphone I mean I you can't this it take it takes the tin out of it for whatever reason you can still hear me though yes without the tin not as well so but Steve I suggest that you try the same thing similarly I'd like also put into the record that I read uh the uh information reviewed the uh videos from the um okay I'd like to also note for the record that I um reviewed the videos and reviewed the materials and and have provided my certification and and eligible to vote okay Steve have you sign the certification also yes did so just note for the record Steve fario and Don have reviewed everything and they are eligible of vote so you have all seven members eligible is that correct two three wait one two three four five six seven and an alternate anywhere okay let's let's give it a go all righty do this better with me holding the microphone like yes it is okay this will be fun um so the board will recall that we were here on July 18th and we had completed our engineering testimony from Mr Ingram and that the members of the public were in the process of uh questioning and we had about three more people in the audience and three people online that wanted to ask a couple of more questions um so I suggest that we continue right from there and then the plan will be to uh move into our architectural testimony and then recall Mr Ingram for his planning testimony yeah just for the record the two members of the public who have questioned him and forgive me if I butcher these names Don Baro and Donna Hart diori or something like that did I get close okay so those are the two members of board any questions so anyone other than those two people come on up hello Frank DKI is my name okay hold on hold on hold on your name is Franklin Frank a Frank dumki could you spell your last name d m p r e s k i in your address sir you're up go ahead okay there was a lot of information given by the engineer at that meeting and a lot of it seem personal his feelings and stuff but I just feel that some of it has to be addressed he said that he would look at the property and see kids hanging out in cars are these questions or your comments no I'm going to make a question oh and uh he said that uh well I ask you you said that you looked at the property you would see kids out there people spinning tires and that you had a desire to um do something about the property and that was one of the driving forces that was one of the driving forces for you to get involved with the board but you weren't really clear what that meant to be involved with the board could you elaborate on that I served on the board for many years and was the chairman um over a decade ago okay I I was I was just curious um I just wanted to say that that's uh not with uh the neighbors we've never noticed any of that can't Mr we can't hear you can you get closer to that mic or tip it up a little yeah so that's not me and my neighbors never witnessed any of that stuff so I just wanted to make that clear so again that's going to be for your testimony question okay gets a little confusing because I don't do this all the time sorry um you reference studies that uh developments that have senior citizens 55 and over uh don't use the vehicles a lot um and I was wondering what type of studies did you use to reference um because in Somerville and rton New Jersey you have mass transit you have uh uh stores and uh businesses within walking dist distance you have uh Hospital doctors office everything's right there you can work um this property is a world property and you mentioned that uh you thought that the driving would be less than the prior uh uh business application and could you could youl the question is the question well I didn't get there the question is did you use comparable studies for a royal setting when you were making those statements versus a a town type of setting the traffic generation that we provided is based upon standards in The Institute of Transportation Engineers manuals which is based on a you know a conglomeration of studies and data that have been prepared you know for various uses so our determination that this is a reduction over the prior use is based upon reviewing those you know aggregated standards so it's not really site site specific to study it's just a general conglomerate of uh different areas where people would be over 55 correct okay um it was suggested that this community people being over 55 will be less U traffic because people drive less it's a residential area it's going to be 24hour uh living accommodations 365 days a year and even a people on Drive you're going to sensus of Ro setting you're going to have wouldn't you wouldn't you have that's a question visitors on holidays nights weekends home Aid visits nursing visits Food Service deliveries Uber driver deliveries uh link Service delivery uh pickups wheels on meals delivery UPS Amazon US Postal deliveries and since the facility doesn't have a maintenance building or a person on site I would assum assume that whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa you got to you asked the question that all those deliveries so let him answer that then go to your next question well the question is how could this be possible there would be less traffic again the the standards I think are pretty clear and you know I I think you I really needs to sink in this is approved for 50,000 square feet of office 50,000 Mr let me ask did you take the 50,000 square foot office and run that into the it um trip generation manual and then run the proposal through the it trip generation manual that's correct and the the board's traffic expert um uh suggested that we use an alternate category um but I believe came to the same conclusion and you know again according to any all the published standards this will be a significant but can you explain to him about those standards what is the it how do they put that he he doesn't understand he thinks that you're just making a conclusion based on something can you explain exactly the thing that you're relying on sure so again Institute of Transportation engineers takes you know all of these surveyed points when people submit data and say this is my facility it's this size it produces this much traffic and when they say it produces this much traffic that is based on an actual study corre that gets submitted to the it is that correct yes I me the it takes a bunch of these studies not only throughout the United States I think even some even some from Canada if I'm not mistaken am I mistaken I believe so yes that I'm mistaken you're correct okay and then they put them into this trip generation manual so that engineering experts can use the data correct averages are made based upon all these survey points um to come up with averages for all different land use codes so do you understand what he used to come to his conclusions I I assuming that he put it into a program but um he didn't put it did you put it into a program or did you use a manual I used the manual it gives you basic an equ it takes all these points it creates a kind of a best fit you know line that has an equation to it and you put your size of your the number of units or in the case of office the size of your building and you you know multiply it by a factor and it gives you the average partk and the factor you you coming up with this factor or the factor comes from the it manual it comes from it it's it's the best available data any any of us have all right you stated that the water draw is 3,950 gallons per day uh that sounds about right uh that's that's based upon the state uh you know water code uh based upon the again the land use requirement you say the state water code do you mean the njde regulations correct yes n njac 7 colon 10-1 12.6 and we and we compared that to what was approved for the the office building and it's it's roughly about half of the the demand that the Office Buildings would have had all right so my calculation is 24 units at one person because we we we never established how many people will really be able to live in a facility even though there's bedrooms one bedroom two bedroom three bedroom units so if you had one person in 24 units it' be 2,400 gallons per day that's a question is that correct it's it's based upon the the gallons per day are are a function of the the number of bedrooms in the unit so we have 18 units at 140 gallons per day for two bedrooms and we have six units at 200 gallons per day for three bedrooms but water usage goes by person right if you used it if you use the G GS uh geological study they go by people 100 80 to 100 gallons per person and the US uh EPA goes by 100 gallons per person they don't go by bedrooms the state of New Jersey who regulates uh water usage goes by the the bedroom now well that's what they if that's what they go by the bedrooms they're assuming that I guess there's one person in a bedroom it's it's again it's these numbers are determined based upon averages you know for different land uses well if if the well is rated at a certain output cuz we we're well owners and the wells rated for a certain output The seage Authority says that you can only discharge 5,000 gallons is there going to be a meter on the property that the Township's responsible for maintaining to to gauge how much water you're actually pumping out of the ground as silly as it sounds the the the number that you use and how they determine water is not exactly the same as how they determine sewage but you know under the the municipal utility authorities numers they have a certain amount of gallons that they associate per unit which is a reduced number from normal housing that senior housing and they have already reviewed the application and determined that it is within the limits just based upon the number of units with the previously approved capacity that has been allocated to the project and is in fact under all right because I I went over there at storage Authority and was talking to them they said that whatever their prior permit was um given to the previous build or alridge that's the permit that you're you're working under that gallonage was transferred and a submission was made showing them that what we're proposing would be a lesser volume and and that's why we're we're within those limits okay um Community Health this there's studies suggesting that people especially senior citizens are susceptible to serious illness from aerosol Biohazard s produced from seage treatment plants operation with the Ron Township seage treatment property line within 250 ft of the developer's property has the developer done any due diligence in sampling uh uh and a sampling study or potential health issues from Marisol bio biohazards before uh requesting a variance were Chang to a low-income senior rental housing well again I wouldn't Define this as low-income senior rental housing we have an affordable housing component but the majority of the units are market rate no we have not done any specific studies about our proximity to the sewer plant which you know is our property is surrounded by just as much single family residential just beyond the limits of this property it it it was not a particular concern well originally there was a document from the sege authority and it's pertaining to that property and their recommendation when I I think it was Aldridge had the property and he was trying to build there that no uh no residential property should be built on that property because of the proximity to the storage plant this is not a question there's no we need a question do you have something that says sir sir do you have something that says that you that you can show them and say are you aware of this yes so why don't you show them what you have and say are you aware of this have you read this I'll ask the question for him whatever that is are you aware of that no can you who's that addressed to and who signed it it appears to be part of a uh review provided uh from the RTM to the township zoning board back in 2006 as part of John aldrich's application okay let me can I see that because the board could take judicial notice of that but why don't you read it first let let us read it first I'm going to read it with you save time [Music] no I drink black coffee so this appears to me to be my mom lik an agency review form that the board of adjustment submitted to the r Township Municipal Utilities Authority to review the metal run Inc office development at the time of this review the RT muua checked off unacceptable and they gave the reason why it was unacceptable now did the RTM ultimately give an approval for that project yes this was not for the office project this was for when he attempted I believe to convert to senior housing or no uh wasn't senior housing it was some other version of housing listen you're going to wait your turn he's up should not be if you if you want to submit that look he can submit it later or we can mark it for identification but that seems to be the board could take judicial notice of that for what it's worth but that appears to be a RT muua review not of this project not of the office building that was approved but a prior application before the office building just see understand so I can um I can mark it for identification but the relevance of it to this application I'm going to unless you show me something I'm going to be saying it's not relevant Mar it for the record we we would argue that Mr drill is correct it can be marked for the record but it is it's no evident no evidential the letter of your last name d d so I'm going to mark this as exhibit I'm not marking as an exib I'm marking for identification put on form ID only D1 is going to be your first exhibit with today's datet keep on going you you mentioned that um each unit's going to have a driveway for parking for one car uh there there is a garage driveway combination so they will have basically you know one stall in the garage one in behind it okay so that the the possibility is they have two-car garage but um there's a good possib ility that they would use the garage for storage also right I wouldn't say that people some people will use a garage some people will use storage they may you know if they don't have enough parking spaces they may have to adjust their habits all right um if a unit has more than um two drivers in the in the in the apartment and there was only I think you proposed only eight overflow spots uh 12 I believe 12 overflow spots so if there's more tra more cars than that would these people be parking on Old jork Road and Wells Road where would they put their cars if you start getting more people on holidays um just people showing up and there's not enough parking where will these people put their cars I would say the same as a concern in any residential development ever created I mean the standards that are provided here what we provide is meets and exceeds the required parking again based on the standards of the residential site Improvement standards which is the governing regulation for this development in New Jersey uh we have nine more stalls than than that uh requires so you know could there always be overflow anywhere absolutely where they're going to park you know we we have to only assume that they will do it legally and and another question I I think I already asked it but I'm not sure of of of the response if this most people pay storage by based on water consumption so you measure the water consumption and that's how you pay your storage bill is is that correct what's that I'm asking is that correct that you that your sewer consumption is based on how much water you use well they don't know how much water you use if you're not connected to the water meter so now so the point that I'm making is if you have well water how is the SE Authority going to determine what your charges should be if you're pumping more water than you estimated growing up again next to this property paid a sewer bill based on our being one dwelling unit and we had a well on our property same as everyone else his question is for this development how does the RTM it's based on the edus so our development generates what's an what's an edu equivalent dwelling unit okay and how many edus has the RTM applied or given this applicant I don't recall the exact number but we're we're below the the allocation of of the 5,000 gallons that was already allocated to the his question his question really is if the sewage Authority has assigned to you X number of edus and they charge you why what he's asking is what happens if your actual sewer flow is more than what they've assigned to you and you're paying for that's what your question is yes that that's his question I don't know that they would know that the same as they wouldn't know that for anyone connected to a well but this this property is going to have a well it's going to be regulated by the state it's going to have an operator if they're drawing more water than they're intended they're going to be looking into what the problem would be and trying to resolve it he's not talking about water he's talking about sewer they are talking the combination okay so the state's going to be responsible for maintaining the well no as as if you're a regulated well like a community well you have to have some version of an operator who's licensed and that person would be in charge of maintaining compliance with the dp's requirements any reporting or anything like that would be done all right um is there any uh I was in business and this is a business it's not a residential property I have a shity bond in case I do any damages any sh Bond okay shy Bond yes is there going to be any shy bond in case they overdraw the water table and residents in area ler Wells no but it's a business you don't businesses don't carry shity bonds I don't know what insurances or bonds that the developer or the owner of the property will have but that's simply not a requirement all right all right and then I'll just have my closing statement when I after thank you any better yes that you're good so my name is Eugene franchino can you spell that last name slowly f r a n CH i n o I'm at three mil to court been there for 32 years I'm a New Jersey licensed attorney I have had no benefit of the background here but so give me a little leeway in terms of some of my questions in terms of the uh the traffic study was was it taken into account the fact the senior living okay a little closer to to M just so you know we're having a very bad PA night okay I hear you so in any event my my question is basically in part of doing the traffic study and and I have relatives that live in the Delaney and Bridgewater in an assisted living community I understand that that's not what's proposed here but do you take into account the fact that some of these people don't drive so they may have Link services um is this I'm ask multiple questions is it a deed restricted fac facility that you're you know keeping this to uh one how many people occupy that in that property are those overflows too does it take into account the fact that you have uh landscapers coming in maintenance services cleaning people uh sanitation oh my God medical personnel uh all those other you know accessory type things that a homeowner would have times the number of units there so is it did that traffic study take into account any of those items well so we didn't perform a specific traffic study here again it's based upon published standards and averages for the different uses so you know all of those various you know trips and things that would be generated would all be factored into that if they occurred at those other facilities and you know a lot of those things you're talking about you know be it landscapers be it Amazon deliveries that's going to occur whether you're an office or you're residential but I I think you know those are really small in relation to the overall traffic generated but in any event I think when they do these studies they're counting the number of vehicles they're you know they're not you know distinguishing necessarily that this was a a work vehicle or this was a a resident so you know it should all be within the numbers provided right but you're only accounting for 12 overflow spots what I'm saying is you have all these residents and all these additional services for all these um for these residents is that taken into account is it also taken in account all the other developments uh you know Readington has and Railroad Avenue has additional development that artery feeds from a lot of other areas just trying to cross Mor corner on to Old York today took 15 minutes just to make a left turn so just I don't know if your study takes into account all the other development within that area no we're not factoring in uh alternate traffic because again this property was already approved by it's a County Road Old jerk Road correct and it was approved for the office building and they agreed to what that traffic is we submitted our application to them with the same data showing them this is a reduction from that so there's really no further study performed because it's you know it it's it's pretty easily determined based upon those standards that this is a reduction so so I guess the only other thing is that the proposal for the previous building that pretty much at 6 o' things to shut down because the nature of that prior building was 9 to 5 8:30 to 4:30 type type of activity residents go on doesn't stop at six o'clock a matter of fact for a lot of people that's when your day kind of kicks in now that you're home even though this is little bit more you know it's an an elderly Community or I shouldn't say elderly 55 or whatever the the community is so um it does it take take into account the lighting that's going to be on at you know 10 o'clock at night other other things that are taken into account substantially different than the prior application in in terms of traffic you're what we're really looking at is peak hours so you have peak hour in the morning you have a peak hour in the afternoon so you know with the office the peak hours are also during peak hours for roads so obviously an office building lets out at the busiest time which is also generally the busiest time for any roadway so also when you're looking at the fact of you know we're not going to be peeking at that time any traffic concerns at the busiest times are not going to be certainly exacerbated here because the peak for this type of development is lower than the peak for offices you know if people are leaving the property at 900 PM there's so much less traffic on the road it really becomes you know not really a concern for traffic because there's hardly any traffic on the road itself I it it was any taken into account the fact that the The seage Authority itself being in actively uh as a as a business you pay your bill at the sewage Authority there's there's commuter traffic through that there's trucks honey Dippers all the other type of is it take account any of the both the commercial and the citizen traffic going to pay their bills and things like that through through that business area well all that traffic is existing traffic on the road so it's not hasn't wasn't really relevant to our review because that's traffic that's there irregardless of our development okay it's not incremental to this building you're saying correct all right that's all I have for thanks com thank you so much who's next there is no list I only CL up the two people that already asked questions it's open to anyone who I didn't say uh Daniel hendy I live at 356 Old York Road whoa yeah go slow and spell your last name please and your address 356 Old Road okay we got you thanks just a just a quick observation question question make a question anyone has anyone either on the honorable Council or the developer considered the dotted line road on Old York Road I've been a resident there listen listen listen can't ask the board questions you can ask the engineer questions okay has a a road study been done about the passing Lane on that road which previous I moving in uh the development next door Linton Road wasn't built and the house houses to the well the offices that were weren't even you know speal in anybody's eye but there is a a a passing Lane there that starts right about where your property is and doesn't end until maybe so so ask him are you aware that there's a are you aware that there's a passing Lane then describe it start off with that then ask your next question are you aware of the passing Lane in front of the development I mean I wouldn't say it's a passing Lane per se but the road was widened in that area and that was done as part of the original development so when they got their County planning board approval the county asked for that to be widened with a shoulder um which does allow people to pass um but uh those public improvements which the county requested were done at that time and then the last question I have is uh is the developer for this project also developing any other property in hunterton county that U that the lowi income requirements could could have been shifted um I don't know of any other projects of the developer he may or he may not but uh affordable housing units are basically a requirement in any residential let's let's put this way we have not only the board's planning expert here but she also happens to be the Township's affordable housing planner am I correct correct and I and you were sworn on you were sworn in on July 18th correct yes can you just explain in general to the board and the public the the ridan township ordinance requirement regarding affordable housing so whenever there is a into a microphone microphone microphone sorry whenever there's a use variance granted for uh use or density for residential property that results in more than six units per acre uh more than five residential units or or six units per acre then there is an affordable housing set aside requirement so it's a requirement of the ordinance and that's 15% for rental and 20% for ownership units so that means anywhere in the township that they proposed this project they would have this affordable housing set aside and by the way I'm the Readington Township planning board attorney same thing in Readington same thing uh 202 North in next town over Branchburg same thing 31 north in Clinton I'm the Clinton C planning board attorney that is that correct yes they required ordinances as part of our settlement agreement for what was called the round three affordable housing right obligation this is not this is not just for R and Township this is for anyone who settled their affordable housing obligation in the state of New Jersey for the third round through the declaratory judgment mechanism is that correct correct my question was not that I understand the requirements but I also understand that in some cases uh a builder can ship those use the microphone I understand that also in some cases uh develop are able to transfer that to another property does the r and Township ordinance allow for a transfer not in this case no and not in Clinton Township either not in Readington Township thank you anyone else okay before go ahead Can Has anyone that didn't ask a question want to ask a question so come on up if you haven't asked a question then we'll see yeah then we'll see if there's if the chair wants to allow an additional question from someone who already asked can you hear me little louder can you hear me now yes uh Dr Joseph Mardi I live at nine Wells Road okay hold on you got to go slow and spell the last name okay Joseph ricardi r i CCI a r d and your address nine Wells Road okay first I wanted to ask about the parking you said you have 12 extra spots there's no parking now on Old York Road so what is say are you aware there's no aware there's no parking on Old York Road now yes there's no designated parking on on the county road correct I'm going to ask a question on your behalf how was the parking requirement determined in this application it it's based upon the residential site Improvement standards which govern residential requirements and again we it the residential site Improvement standards which govern all residential parking in the state of New Jersey or in ridan Township in the state of New Jersey okay and what is that requirement uh for a two-bedroom unit we're looking at 2.3 spaces per unit and a three-bedroom unit at 2.4 spaces per unit and then it gets more complicated because you have to have a certain percentage of those as public guest spaces which is required for 12 which we provide and then you can also uh under new legislation allow reductions uh based upon the inclusion of uh electric vehicle charging uh spots uh but irregardless of that you know you put it all together the requirement would have been 51 spaces uh and we are providing six0 so we trying to exceed those standards right so I understand that a developer can propose more than the rsis requirement but can a board require more than an RSI requirement if the developer is not willing to do that I don't believe so go ahead keep on asking all you're telling us this is uh for senior citizens at the last meeting you said the only criteria was that person signing the lease has to be over 55 okay we're not hearing anything you're saying tip it tip it toward you yeah there you better yeah at the last meeting you you keep telling us this is for senior citizens at the last meeting you said that adult children children and small children could live there so my question is the only criteria is that the person signing the lease has to be 55 or older is that correct uh the board asked them to submit to research this very issue that you're asking about and to submit a lease let me ask have you guys done that we've submitt we've submitted a lease and an app application which uh when Mr Ingram's testimony is completed uh when the questioning of him is completed I will enter that into evidence and read from that uh agreement at that point okay so when you will be able to answer his question with those documents yes okay so we're gonna you should we're going to hold your question for him do you have any indications of Interest or anybody lined up that wants to look at the project and possibly live there uh I'm not aware of any conversation developers had enough uh you also said you wanted to rent it out for market value do you intend to just build can you just repeat that question can you go a little slower sure you said you wanted to rent these out for quote unquote market value but what he's asking about is the difference between the market rate units and the affordable units he's he wants to know what does do you know the rents that the market rate units are going to be rented out at no we haven't picked an exact number uh you know that the of the rental pricing okay so right now the only thing you have lined up is the four affordable housing units that you're going to rent out I you have no prospects for you have no indication of interest you have no signed leases you have no lease that you can no it it would be somewhat improper to start you know marketing a property for people to lease when we don't have an approval or a building to put them in and by the way if the board caught wind that they were marketing this thing without an approval uh that would not go over too well that happened once yeah I have another question about the affordable housing uh low income I know that there's a minimum of four is there a maximum of how many units you could put in there uh I don't believe there's a maximum it would I mean the more we would propose would be a greater benefit to the township but it's not a a an advantage how is that a benefit to the township sorry how is that a benefit to the township because the Township is going to have a fourth round obligation of affordable housing and the more a person can provide them the closer it's going to be to allowing them to meet that requirement put it this way let me just ask our affordable housing planner in your opinion if they provided more than the 15% requirement the township would have a very good argument that anything over 15% could be applied to their fourth round obligation correct that's correct and it also goes to General Welfare the more that it serves the general welfare the more for hous is on now the question is to them are would you consider providing more than a 15% set aside for affordable housing we're meeting the obligation of the ordinance and we're not we're not considering adding any more affordable housing my guess is because that would cost them a lot of money to add more affordable housing units they probably make more money off renting the market rate units my question is if they can rent it out if they can't they do have the option to make it 100% low income if they want it to is that correct they would have the option but let let's be clear when you designate that you're designating it with a deed restriction that that's what can be done so you can't go back and forth all the time just because you can't get a tenant you're locking yourself in long term and that would be a very bad business decision it would be guaranteed income for you if you can't rent it out what are you going to do with it how long are you going to leave it vacant before you do that I can't answer those questions quick on the deers question when the attorney addresses the lease I'm also going to ask you that you guys start talking about it now that that in my opinion the regulations concerning the age and what's the minimum age child that can live there which don't quote me on this but I believe it's 19 but we'll see what you have to say should be in a deed restriction just like you're going to have a deed restriction for the low and moderate income units I'm just giving you a heads up about that and I had a question about the management you said at the last meeting there was going to be no on-site management what would happen if somebody were breaking the rules if they had 20 people living in an apartment like who who's going to monitor this well I mean the township zoning can always you know enforce you know a site plan approval so if something's happening in a in a in a property that has a site plan approval that's not permitted the township can enforce that through zoning but I would also say that an owner who's operating the property you know doesn't have interest in the property being used in that capacity because it's likely just to anger all of the other residents in the development who are probably going to be the first people to call and complain about something like that occurring so it would also be a violation of the the lease and the landlord would have the ability to evict anybody violated the terms of the lease correct his question is to to get to that point some he's asking who's going to monitor that that's what he's asking what he's asking is would you consider having an on-site super there because his question goes to the best and closest monitoring that's what he's asking yeah there's not a consideration of having an onsite super like in living onsite but there will be a uh the landlord will have the ability to enforce the regulations both in the lease and in the rules and regulations and anybody can can report to the landlord a problem that they can the landlord's going to have a 247 number that people can call if there's a problem yes you have to be a resident to make a complaint no so so I assume by saying that if the board grants an approval that would be a condition that's fine how long would it take to evict somebody if they broke the rules he we didn't hear what you just said you know we heard I'm you him toe because nice and slow how long would it take to evict a tenant if they were breaking the rules I mean eviction as we all know is not specific to this prop property it can be a long process your neighbor could rent their house and have to go through an eviction so you know these are all the risks in in any development I can't predict how long it would take to get a person out that they wanted out I think the average was about two years no I could say maybe during covid but not not now um for a residential but it depends upon to answer it from a legal perspective it depends upon the reason for the eviction if it's for nonpayment of rent um there's not even a notice requirement once there's a non-payment of rent the landlord can go in and probably within 60 days talking about non-payment he's talking about for loud noise for property and that sort of stuff that would require a notice and a and and if the violation continues at second notice and then you can file an action for eviction and it would if the people don't leave then there's a trial it can happen you know if there's a continued violation probably within a six-month time period maybe even less how many how long between warnings do you give people before you re generally take action it depends upon what the basis of the the uh violation is if it's uh something that is uh health and safety that's not something that's something that any landlord would take into consideration and move very quickly if it's something that is not as uh as technical violation but isn't offending any other neighbors it it depends upon the situation does that include people that do not live in the complex I don't know what that means in other words we're neighbors if there's a lot of loud noise or some kind of issue if we make a complaint and you had to get somebody out if you make again legally if you made a complaint and they didn't do anything about it you could always file a lawsuit against the landlord for nuisance but the laws in the state of New Jersey are going to govern the rentals at this complex if the board approves it just like the laws the state of New Jersey are going to cover any rentals anywhere would you agreee with that legal interpretation yes and it would requ it would even if this was an office complex and there was loud noises coming through if that was a violation then neighbors would have the ability to file a nuisance action against an office complex or any other type of business I am not trying to give Jeffrey any business he's the zoning officer but zoning officers in New Jersey I'm not testifying this is just my legal opinion they're not roving a roving zoning Police Department that goes around looking for zoning violations and I'm not saying he doesn't work hard but they're in their office doing other stuff and normally when does something come to the zoning office's attention when a neighbor complains that's how it is in the state of New Jersey and I and I I guess probably that's how it is in Most states in the country you also said that the the way it is now you said there was a lot of trouble and Rus and burnouts and things like that do you have any data on that it's just my my my memory over 20 years of living there it wasn't a constant you know thing no but it happened enough that I can recall multiple instances but you don't have any data no police reports nothing like that I do not it's just your opinion my last question would be if with the parking it if with the cars are on residential street and one of your residents causes an issue who's responsible for that if you have an uninsured car or underinsured car and they're parked on a residential street if a car is parked not on our property on a public road that has nothing to do with our project that is not our responsibility to enforce it's not on our property it it can be enforced by The Police Department police department and and the township perhaps yeah this one is not there zoning officer go positive yeah ask the police hey I got your back you see all right so my my last question would be as far as the occupants is it it's not deed restricted there's no at our last meeting you said there was no limit on how many people could be in an apartment and there was no um no limit on their age is that something we didn't say that but I'll be providing no he did his exact words were no limit you can read back put it this way whatever Mr Ingram said let's just say I don't think he had the facts and figures at that time and I believe that the attorney is going to respond to that because the attorney did research it's really a legal question and I think we're going to hear about that and I'm not saying never believe Mr Ingram but when he speaks outside his engineering or planning realm with opinions um let's just say might not have been correct but I think they're going to have they're going to put some documents in to answer those questions I've already put them on notice that I'm going to be if the board is inclined to Grant this I'm going to be asking that that thing be put in as a deed restriction will there be another meeting before you do this I don't know if it's going to this thing's going to complete tonight or not we shall see I mean if the board approves it I have to draft a resolution that that takes at least you're going to ask Mr groomer he complains I'm supposed to have him done in 45 days and a lot of times they're not being done in 45 days so because I'm very detail oriented which I think they like I don't think that a lot of the applicants like but that's what I I represent them I don't represent them because it's my understanding that this is not going to be exclusively for senior citizens I this is just going to be a housing project well that's what you're going to ask him with these documents but I have a feeling that if the documents restricted to this and it's put in as a deed restriction I have a feeling it is going to be restricted to that how can we have a approval on it if you don't have sir I'm sorry we can't hear you over here you need to just slowly and clearly hold on one second let me just say one thing you guys when you come up this is great by the way we love to have people come up here and talk and make points the most important person in this room is her so when you turn your back raise your hand so he knows who talking about Jackie Jackie okay just so everybody understands she's the most important person in the room so when you talk and you turn your back whether it's perfectly clear to us as you can tell in this room it's not clear to her that's the person I would be talking to I mean yeah we're GNA we're going to deliberate we're going to vote she's the most important person in the room and if you guys want a transcript and you want an accurate transcript she's the person but she cannot like when you guys have a convers ation and you're talking very fast or you get real muffled she can't hear that talk very slowly and talk to her if you have to don't turn your back to her because she cannot hear that okay y I will not be insulted you can look at her and talk to me and how could you vote on this if you don't have all the information I mean it was never again the attorney has represented that he's going to put this information in when this witness is done if he doesn't remember after all the witnesses testify you guys are getting up and you're going to I'm going to swear you all in you're going to make your comments and if you're not satisfied with the information he gave then you're going to say to them how can you vote Yes on this with not with not enough information you cannot say that now for two reasons number one it's not the time for it and number two they haven't put all the proofs in right well thank you everybody for your time oh my God who's next if there's no one no one question let's find out from Zoom does anyone want the thing is is that there is something wrong with the TV and we cannot hear so unfortunately if somebody by Zoom has a question I'm sorry we cannot hear okay so if anyone has already asked a question has another question come on up and we cannot accept questions via the chat correct my name is my name is Don Barnacle I live at three Wells Road I Barnacle b a r n i c ke L I live at three Wells Road and what's your first name again I know you were here Last Don yes and and my question really is for uh the attorney uh and that is you asked there were a couple of action items from last time right and one of them was in terms of hooking up to uh water source and I know that uh the engineer has done his homework and he going report on that this evening we contacted the uh water purveyor uh they said the nearest line is 4,000 ft away at the corner of warhe Corner Road we are also not in their water service area and we would not be able to connect to the line really okay I thought I had read something different that you were within about 3,000 fet and were within the authority but I'll defer to what you have investigated and I think it was Joe Davon at American Water was the contact we spoke to okay thank you and thank you on my list but thank you for bringing it up now better you than me my computer so I could speak loudly and clearly so you're gonna have to go closer to the microphone moving towards you these a the Acoustics in here don't help that this isn't working well so my question well I assume that you are Donna har my name is Donna Hart Forester h a t hyphen f o e r s t r i live at two Ms Court the question I have is for Mr Ingram Mr Ingram did you state that traffic studies are conducted based on what is being developed irregardless of what surrounds it well you got to go way slower way slower did you state Mr Ingram that traffic studies are conducted based on what is being developed irregardless of what grounds it that contributes to that traffic model in this case we are not performing a detailed traffic study of the operation of the roadway because the development was previously approved for a higher traffic volume and approved by the county the real proof in my opinion is is this development less intense than the one that was already approved and factored into the County's planning and the answer was yes so we did not study surrounding traffic you know how much is on Old York Road because what we're providing is less than what was approved and could be constructed under the current approvals okay so with that my question is when was the last traffic assessment performed and was it in 2000 and 2001 which was when the original traffic assessment was done for the anticipated previous approved use of the property um is that the last time a traffic study was done I don't know the data of the prior study but again as a County Road it's their jurisdiction their right to approve so um if they're satisfied that this is a reduction from what they're factoring into their you know uh you know maintenance and management of the county road then that's that's the proof that we have to provide so you're going to use that assessment even though it hasn't the growth in the immediate area has not come into play I I don't believe that's relevant in the context of this application let me can I ask a question yes do you have County approval or are you going to ask the board to proove this subject to County approval I don't want to misspeak we have submitted an application we've spoken to the county um we've gotten their comments I'd like to make it a condition of approval but you know again we don't we don't have any issues that were raised by them with regard to the traffic because just legally I just want to note that the municipal land use law what what are you telling me conditional approval not okay so the the county Hunter and County planning board by letter dated July 19 2024 has given a conditional approval not to construct if the board grants an approval one of the standard conditions is Hunter County planning board unconditional approval to construct and the municipal land use law in 40 call 55 d-22 I think it's 22b yes says in the event that development proposed by an application for development requires approval by a governmental agency other than the municipal agency and that's the case here the traffic is legally because it's on a County Road the county has jurisdiction over that not Township the municip the municipal agency shall an appropriate instance say condition its approval upon the subsequent approval of such governmental agency so the board this board cannot say you know what get that County approval first then we'll act on it they have to act on the application now this is not if this was in front of the planning board as a permitted use I would be saying that you can't even talk about offsite traffic but because this is in front of the board of adjustment they can and should consider offsite traffic I assume what you're going to argue when you make your closing but if it's not don't worry about it is that the board shouldn't approve this unless there's an up-to-date traffic study done that's going to be they're going to have to decide what they want to do about the fact that there hasn't been a traffic study but their argument is going to be that this was previously approved and this generates less traffic therefore it's it doesn't need a traffic study that's not right or wrong that's going to be for the board to decide which position to accept and you just you'll make sure that you argue that when you make your closing okay um I have one more question um regarding the traffic assessments the only other thing that I saw online is a January 2024 traffic assessment evaluation provided to the Ron Township Board of adjustment committee um and that was provided by Mr Mr Ingram himself so is that typical Mr Ingram that a civil engineer for the developer provides traffic assessments to the township and not an impartial party no anyone who would prepare the answer is yes yes well I'm sorry yes it's typical because every person who would prepare it would be hired by the applicant that the town's not going to do it uh of their own accord um but that's why the township maintains their own professionals to review what's submitted and provide ments whether they agree or disagree and ask for additional information if it's if it's relevant Yeah by so by the way this gentleman sitting over there Jay Troutman raise your hand he is the board's traffic expert so he is an independent traffic expert you should come visit my road and at some point he's going to be asked his opinion about all this but not right now right now they're putting on their Witnesses I have another question um next just for the record I want to make sure we button this one up what's the date on that whatever Mr Ingram submitted to the board on traffic January 202 January 2024 I want to make sure I have that I have December 12 2022 as do I yeah Jay what was the date December January 12th 2024 to traffic traffic and parking assessment Ron Township Zoning Board of adjustment okay can I see that I'm referring to December 12th 2023 okay I I'm I'm referencing Mr uh um and raise traffic uh letter they prepared in the date provided no she's asking about yours I don't think we issued a I understand that but that he references the December 12th date in the letter I don't recall I don't have that one in front of me but hold hold on I if it's in the board file I can see that that's the report what do you you have a December 12 2023 and we have a January 12 2024 yeah um we're getting close to break time well why don't we a break now so they can figure out about these traffic STS okay let's take a 10-minute break okay let's let Mr Ingram let's let Mr Ingram say what happened with the reports the reports appear to be identical I think just what happened is when we printed to send them in you open up word and you get an auto date fill in and it it it differs from the prior copy we just check the two letters there's no difference between the two of the dates so we can refer to the January you know 12th the December 12th for the record what the the December worri about people parking their cars over there the January 12 2024 letter was received in the planning and zoning office January 30th 2024 the December 12th 2023 letter was received in the Z planning and zoning office on March 28th 2024 so something happened with their computer when they sent the thing in the second time yep but we've all reviewed them it's not similar it's identical other than the dates on the letter thank you we interrupted you because your question started this which was very interesting actually okay do I need to restate my name and address no but you can restate the question sit the  down my last question regarding traffic for Mr Ingram is has traffic increased in the past 10 years yes so how can another traffic study not be performed when this one was done over 20 years ago prior to significant growth in the area because the purpose of the traffic study and the data contained within it is an assessment of what the traffic would be from an office development as approved which already paid its its impact fees to the county versus our development and both of these are based on the current it so they are current they are updated and to say that this is a reduction from what could be built today on the current approval it doesn't matter for the purpose of that what the traffic is on the road because development already paid its impact study for the higher traffic volume so you know yes there may be more traffic on the road but it becomes somewhat irrelevant if a person constructs 50,000 sare feet of office because they have an approval that's more traffic putting on that road that nobody gets to review versus what we're proposing here which is a lower volume than that and that's why the county is not objecting to the traffic and was that study performed in 20201 based on Monday through Friday business hours 9 to5 or did it account for evening and weekends as well the the basis of the analysis and and what really matters is again the PE hour so you know it's looking at the highest periods of time in the morning Peak and the afternoon Peak and how those are different because what will impact traffic ask one more can I interrupt you one more time to ask him a question come on the office building approval was when 2002 were thereabouts and which board approved that that would have been the planning board because that was a conforming use right so what type of traffic study would you have given to the planning board when there the planning board is not supposed to consider offside traffic impacts whatever report they did would have been for the county so they could make an assessment of their impacts but it doesn't matter what report was done then because the comparison and what's relevant is under the current it standards it's what based on today's current manual what is the peak hour impact of the approved facility that could be built that's my second question is because the the approval for the 50,000 foot office building has expired right so the applicant could not go in for building permits to put that up right now they'd have to get a new approval correct sure yes what the current zoning does it still permit 50,000 feet of office space there or not I think the you know the closest use would be the scientific and research you know office basically but the ordinance has changed in the last 20 years yep luckily removed warehousing a couple years ago I understand but has an have you done an analysis to see fact could a 50,000 foot office building be you know as of right no variances today was that jerk off because again we're on a County Road and the county has received an impact and and has already determined that that that use and that traffic they has it was approved they asked for improvements of that road and impact fees based upon that traffic volume now all those improvements are in so they're not asking for anything further to be built because it's already built and it's less traffic than they had already factored into their planning for that road and improvements that need to be made but it was based on the traffic volume at the time correct isn't that what you just stated yes it it was it was based on the traffic if they disagreed and wanted more of a fee which is that's the impact that you pay to them if there's improvements needed to the road they would have asked for it in their conditional review they did not I stick by my opinion that the the board of adjustment couldn't require any improvements or anything like that that's within the jurisdiction of the county it's a county road but the board of adjustment is allowed to consider off track traffic volumes and accident rates and what it would do when it when it looks at this use variance if the board wanted to see all the permitted uses which include science and research Labs commercial recreation motels and hotels churches and Child Care Centers if you wanted to look at what could be built on this property under those it's still going to be higher than this development if you want I mean if and if you wanted to see it we could we could tell you the same thing but again it's traffic to me is is there's a lot of considerations on this application traffic is probably the least hey John is is it fair to ask for a new report or analysis they can't she can't hear you is it fair to ask for a new or report if you TR analis this up to the board I said before her her that because of her you got in your drive prove this if you don't have a current traffic study I said I'm not that's not my job to say yes or no if if the board feels that for purposes of the negative Criterion to see what what kind of impact it's going to have that you need an upto-date study then you tell them that if the board doesn't if the board believes that you don't need that and you can go with what Mr Ingram is testifying to which is their position is listen look at permitted uses we can do an analysis of that we can look at it and see the traffic generation and then we can compare that to the traffic generation and you don't need a study to do that then you go with that but it's up to you it's not yeah if you want to see it for the negative Criterion my opinion is yeah you can ask for it if you don't require it do you have to ask for it no you don't have to ask for it this is something in your discretion as the board of adjustments it wouldn't be the planning board could not ask for an off-site traffic analysis if for a permitted use you might want to hear from your own board expert your own traffic expert yeah on on the issue too because he's reviewed our uh J information and there's no indication of the request for any additional traffic well I noticed in his report under item number one on page two he says the traffic letter referring to your traffic letter which he's referring to the December 12 2023 letter but again it's identical to the January 12 2024 he says quote the traffic letter does not include measurements of existing weekday a.m. weekday p.m. or Saturday Peak traffic volumes alone along Old Road and Wells Road so he actually does point that out in his report that that it wasn't provided yes but it doesn't make a recommendation that it be provided it also the report we can ask him um indicates that the traffic impact of this site will be low during traditional roadway peak hours as residents of age restricted communities tend to travel outside of traditional roadway PE hours so that is the case perh there isn't a need for any additional well that's not listen I'm not speaking for Mr Troutman I know how he operates he is very factual he points things out and he believe I'm a lot more aggressive and I don't know if that's the right word but um aggressive is a good word yeah informative you know he's he believes his job is to be factual and it's up to the board if they want to ask for something he's not going to suggest that they ask for it sometimes you know me if someone ask something and I'll before they ask me you know can we ask for that I'll say yeah you can ask for that if you wanted like I did here so the the only thing I suggested was that we're all talking like Mr troutman's not in the room but it the board might want to hear from him with respect to that issue because his report does note that it was that that analysis wasn't done you have the right to cross-examine him but right now your Witnesses being being cross-examined when you're when they're done with that you can ask them unless the board wants to hear from Mr Dr well I I'd like to can I jump in real quick just real quick on your on your note here so I did look at um Mr CH Chapman's letter uh report here here's my question um we all agree that and I think you just said it and I'm glad you did you agree that traffic's increased in the last 10 years right yes and and you'd agree that it increased in the last 20 years yes okay I appreciate that testimony because there are there's people who have sat in your seat and said to us that traffic hasn't changed in the last 10 years yeah so to me your credibility just went through the roof okay with that said here here's my concern okay here's my concern you and I understand what you're saying about what the metrics are and what the county determined our my our issue and a lot of the stuff that we deal with here I think has to do a lot with traffic studies that quite frankly people who have to really do them um don't provide very good ones um but in this case what my concern is this you have a traffic study that goes back over 20 years and I think we can all agree that that's the I believe that's the last traffic study is that correct that we know of 2001 correct yes okay so and and I I think that we can agree that um and I understand that there hasn't been an updated one the traffic has increased that road and I know you know the road very well um the traffic there's been there's been plenty of accidents on that road um and you know this because you've seen it or you heard about it so and I was just about to I mean just to give you one example I know I coach baseball um I had a player that almost died got T-boned at one of the roads over there um I see cars passing on the shoulder all the time um my my my concern right now with not having a traffic study and I'm to be to be I'm a little Mr Trum are you saying that you would not recommend a traffic study in this case because well let me let me ask you ask him yeah are you saying you not recommend a traffic study I understand that number one says it wasn't included but what we need to know as a board is do you believe it's recommended that we have one so that we can determine whether or not we have a traffic issue or there should be a I I don't like to go into the traffic issues blindly so do you think that we should get one from the applic we're gonna we're gonna do a traffic study thank you okay hear from Jay and just specifically I think we could put this all to bed by just taking a turning movement count at Wells and Old York Road would be very valuable because number one it would tell you how many people are turning in and out of Wells Road and you could compare that to what's projected to turn in out of this site and you could obviously make sure there are adequate gaps on Old York Road for all those turning movements and that's the issue yep that that's the narrow issue that you want us to look at yes that's from Mr trapman but does that satisfy board memb concerns well I'm going to I'm going to here let me let me before we agree to what we or what we they're interrupting you do you no but I have a comment I don't know let me let me let me just follow this up real quick whatever you do if you're going to hire a traffic expert oh um please do not have them do like an hour here an hour there and then say hey here you go um here's the here's the report and I'll tell you why because we had a case where one of the uh citizens came in and gave a better traffic report the actual expert and the p F by the way was cited in the appell division so the board denied that application on a large part because of the lousy traffic testimony I I was here I understand but just just for the record they that applicant then sued the board to overturn the denial it went to Superior Court trial division affirmed the board they then went to the Appel division the Appel division affirmed the board and they specifically affirmed all the boards findings about how they hadn't proved the traffic case not that it was going to be a traffic disaster but they hadn't hadn't proved their case so that the board was reasonable in finding they hadn't proved the negative Criterion and they specifically cited the member of the Public's PDF in the Appel division opinion that's all I'm saying hey John I want to also answer the question about uh with all due respect to our expert I have used the Road I would feel more comfortable with a broader you're going to do the study just do a good study it hasn't been done for 20 years and there's a lot of issues there you have experienced that I have oh I I I agree you want to call the board on this I agree yeah at least that would be my Mya the question is whether or not the the um and by the way just so you you guys are clear I don't want first of all I think he's done an unbelievable job very clear very very organ way very good lot of credibility and if if Mom Ingram is watching your son's doing a great job but seriously we appreciate that approach because we don't get that a lot I'm telling you we don't and you've been very you've been very um cordial you've been very uh concise and organized I think you've given great uh information you've answered the questions um in a very cordial way unlike some other people have in the past um and I'm not saying that what you're saying is incorrect by the way what you're saying with respect to the study and what they said about having the office versus uh residential I'm not saying that any of that is incorrect I just our concern is whether or not do we have the most updated information that's it so with that said I I mean I guess the question is going to be is the scope good so I I'll ask you they want to do the scope is Wells Road and and Old York right is that it yeah that would be my suggestion because you would get measurements of of the amount of existing traffic that is turning in and out of Old York Road but don't you want also the count of the the increase count of that road I don't know that road I do but I don't that would be picked up in a tning movement count that I'm suggesting it would be picked up hold up since Mr Chapman is now testifying about this why don't you ask him the questions you have because I know that you are looking for a broader scope study yes and I am not a traffic expert by any means but looking at the last report it looks like the evaluation was done only for 15minute increments is that sufficient in your opinion uh what are you looking at I don't know what traffic the number of cars here give him a copy of report it's and I could be wrong as I said I am not I just want to know what document you're talking about it's a traffic report from 2001 it is provided by um she went and pulled the underlying 2001 impact study for metal run office development November 2000 and it was performed by Harland Associates Harve yes so that is uh what that means when you say 15minute increments is that when they record the volume they record it in 15 minute increments usually for a period of two to three hours around the Peaks and what Steve is saying is he doesn't want only around the peak he wants to he wants to see what it will look like even though he understands that the peak time is crunch time he wants to see what it will look like what the traffic out there looks like now and then he wants to know what it will look like with this development okay and that's also what take a look down there but the board should still pull itself with the applicant realizing that it's a use variant so you need five affirmative votes so even if it's not unanimous when they do the poll if you have three people who want this you read the te leaves and that could be addressed by taking an automatic traffic recorder count for a 7-Day period and then you would see every hour weekends weekdays 24 hours a day so you would have those measurements if you did an automatic traffic recorder which is a very lowcost device the measure of the traffic what's the span of the road though is that is that is that just for that area that you talked about or could it do a bigger area it would be on Old York Road approximate to the site you need the measurements to be where the traffic is accessing Old York Road your issue here is you just want to make sure that you have adequate gaps in Old York traffic to make safe turns in and out of this new driveway in conjunction with the existing turns that are going in and out of Wells that that that should be the focus okay that makes sense that makes sense and to answer your question Mr F you asked about the scope um again this is only opinion but I would include old jork road and blinton road that's choose as a nir to get to Dory DT Road tell the intersection she didn't hear you so I would suggest including Old jork Road and inroad in the scope of the traffic study as I've witnessed personally cars significantly higher than the speed limit ripping through Linton Road as a bypass to Dory delts Road okay let's pull poll so the poll is traffic stud do we want put it this way does anyone not want an updated traffic study everyone's fine with the traffic study so the poll is is the scope is it a limited scope or the full monty before we do that what's the what's the definition of what Jay was recommending in the end is that in the miror that what's that scope J's initial suggestion was limited scope now with the the monitoring it's a full monty but the the member of the public is suggesting adding another intersection to it and I want to hear what Jay's opinion is on that yeah in my opinion uh the level of impact based on the trip generation of this development would not justify an off-site traffic study to another intersection okay so folks we're willing to do the full monty less that additional intersection if that quantifies it but we're willing to do the traffic study a full traffic study that I think will be updated and meet your your uh requirements how far is lint Road from uh well I can't remember it's right next to it so it's the property it's um I tell you can can we ask our board secretary I actually I was going to say Can can you point to it yeah this isad right here you're you're using exhibit A1 correct correct so you don't see it on this this but there's a road right here is that on the other side of the neighborhood I live on the corner of Lon and Mills so it's this street so I do have one additional question regarding that traffic study Does it include average speeds and average citations that because the police are always pulling people over for that's a separate issue not traffic study that that is asking that the police department be contacted for accident reports correct at a separate issue okay not part of the traffic study correct correct but you also can ask about that but let's just do the traffic study first okay it can be part of the traffic analysis you can request the crash reports from the police department as part of your analysis so does the board want them to we okay so we have in a previous application we have had this discussion and we have said any application going forward that we would be reaching out to the police department to get a report from them on traffic accidents for an application have as the fire department does their report as the whatever have we reached out to them is there any if not can we do that well put it this way put the if they're going to do a traffic report put the obligation on them to reach out to the police department and get the accident reports okay M Mr gerberg could you reach out to the police department and please I won't but the traffic expert will have that part of your report thank you Mr grber is that Linton road is that something that you guys would consider since it's basically right there thank you it's I mean I don't think it's going to tell you anything and I I think your professional said the same thing but you know I mean Why Stop Now correct I I agree with I'm sorry I miss that what did he he's basically said look it's not it's not GNA cost anything much more to put the automatic traffic counters down and so they are volunteering do the additional intersection that this member of the public has requested am I correct sure okay um I was told that the police normally um crash reports yeah they they don't normally respond so let's pressure let ask this and it's very easy he's going to make an Oprah request so he'll get the information yeah and and we're going to make sure that going forward that the police do respond to these applications because we don't want to waste people's time I don't want to waste my time I want to waste anybody's time I'm sorry where are we they've agreed to do more than a full monty traffic study thank you and they've agreed to request a police crash report do you have any other questions I do I one question regards something in regards of Miss something Mr Ingram just said now and said at the last meeting you've mentioned a few times that property being approved for hotels and child care he didn't say approved he said that those are permitted uses permitted uses are they permitted uses based on what it was in approved for or are those just saying it could be worse we could be building those kind of uses there those are the uses that are permitted in the O2 zone so if a person came with any of those uses you look at the floor area ratio you could get close to 200,000 square feet of any of those uses I mentioned and you're looking at the current updated table which reduced the F ARs and the impervious coverage for those zones it's 45% coverage 75% floor area is what is on our plan and we haven't gotten any comments to the contrary that's that's the current okay thank you I do have two other questions one is in regarding Wells um The Well testing report that I could find was from 2001 is that the most recent well testing report that was done so we prepared a letter uh regarding for testing and how essentially our development was using nearly half of what was studied in that uh in that report but let's take it to the next step we have to get a d permit for the well it's going be a small community well everything in your ordinance is going to be required by the DP and then some we do we provide this letter which shows you what that what the well capacity was that's not going to change cuz 20 years passed what's in the ground has been there for a million years so it doesn't change in 20 but we're going to have to do everything for the D anyway we will be happy to provide a full copy of that report as a condition of approval to your engineer and have it reviewed we simply don't want to do it now because it's an extremely expensive process to install new wells and should you choose to ask for something a different spot you could drop tens of thousands of dollars putting a well in in a place that you don't want it for an approval you're not going to get so we're not asking to not do the work we will do it we will provide it your engineer and show that it complies because if it complies here it has to comply at the D we simply want to do it as a condition of approval because it's an outside agency and it's already been yeah I I have to chime in at this point I I may I Madam chair yeah regarding this issue so I guess I have a a are you a a qualified hydrogeologist and qualified to speak to the and meet the standards that are required in our ordinance for doing these reports will be done by a qualified professional yes okay our ordinance requires that an applicant there's a different protocol when you go from business use to residential use for the well testing program and I you have the ordinance section yeah it's uh chapter 296 part two article 12 well testing and in addition to the monitoring Wells and the pump test which the applicant did 20 some years ago 23 years ago U there was also a water quality provision where the the water itself had to be sampled um and you're looking at your data was that submitted in this application if that wasn't in the 2000 report then no but again we're not suggesting that we're not going to do it our ordinance changed though too okay and I and I don't I actually don't think it was in that report not saying we not going to provide that data it would be a condition of approval and if it doesn't comply we wouldn't bu the risk is all ours I would say though the risk is to the board our our role is to ensure that public health and safety is is met and the reason our Township put a we testing ordinance in and a pump test with water quality monitoring was because we had some issues with water quality in our Township I I have a suggestion I have a suggestion and I've told the board before that even assuming that a site plan and an application complies with all the ordinance requirements the board in my opinion there's case law in fact the case law involves affordable housing and it's published case law that says the board cannot Grant the preliminary site plan approval unless the four essential elements of a development are feasible it's not permability feasible storm water drink drinking water sewer and traffic maybe what you guys should do is just bifurcate go for the Youth variants if you don't want to spend the money for the well test bifurcate go for the use variants because if you go for the site plan approval you're going to put me in a I have no choice but to advise them in my opinion even though that this well testing stuff was not on the checklist to get a complete application so the application was deemed complete I don't know how this this proves whether or not your water's feasable so I know you're saying don't make us spend the money make it a condition but if we if we do a water quality test which is fairly simple to do would that satisfy that's not what the but that's not what the Ordinance do listen quite frankly I was not aware of this ordinance until Donna brought it up she just gave it to me it's 29685 B it says groundwater quality determination and which this this goes on then the next section deals with the pump test protocol which is what the previous applicant submitted but if they if the applicant doesn't want to spend the money just bifurcate the application pry use fan I'm not I can't agree to bifurcate the application at this point we're gonna have to take a look at that issue you got to look at that issue because right now unless you unless you show me something Fields versus Franklin Township and there's there's like five appell division cases and I'm thinking that that's how you prove Waters feasible I I think that we can provide information and have provided information to the board that water's feasible but I'm going to take a look at what you're talking about I'm not prepared tocate the application now I think this is something that could be a condition and I and I would ask that you look to see did your old well test that was done and it wasn't even yours it was done way way says it Wayne says it did not did no it didn't include the water quality but it did did it meet the residential standards because the number of wells and monitoring Wells is different there's a a higher requirement than there was for we'll take a look at when you check this this ordinance section out if you if you come back with a proposal you're not going to comply with it but you have an alternate you're going to have to seek relief from not doing this I I would need to take a look at the ordinance I need and it's not just that ordinance that I why would it be released in order for me to be able to if you don't comply ability it's it's a site plan yes but we're we're not saying we wouldn't even do it we're just saying that it would be conditioned so we don't need relief because the idea would be if it was approved we would do the entire test so no Rel would be required okay put it this way uh Steve's going to get look at this and he's going to submit something but what I'm saying is I believe at least preliminarily that under field versus Franklin Township that the board could not Grant preliminary site plan approval unless they can show the drinking water is feasible and how can you say the drinking water is feasible if that section is not complied with but you look at it yep we'll take a look at you seem to be hitting all the hot issues sry you have any more questions one more well related I wouldn't apologize wait a minute Lor M chairman I have one more well related question if you um don't mind I was speak loud okay if you don't mind I was wondering if you're going to provide a generator that can provide Power to that well in the event of a power outage so all those 24 units are not dry I'll get back down I don't know the answer the question was are they going to provide an emergency generator for the well and they're going to get back to the board on that goad go ahead um the last question regarding that study is is it true that it was not performed according to the intended usage of seven days a week 24 hours a day and that it was actually conducted based on five day a week business hours is it true that the last wellwater testing study that was performed was conducted based on a Monday through Friday business hours and not for the antici anticipated proposed use of seven days a week 24 hours a day that is correct for twice the volume in a more condensed period of time with a higher pump volume but yes correct that that goes with Miss ca's question which was what standards were were applied there were they commercial or residential standards is there a different difference in the ordinance I don't know that was her question understood and the last question I have for Mr Ingram is that you noted that the more low-income housing the greater the benefit to the community um I'm not sure if this is for Mr Ingram to answer or that's going to be for Mr Ingram his planning capacity right now he's just testifying as an engineer okay he's going to come back after the architect as a planner that's when I would ask him that and I'm have a feeling that the board's affordable the board's planning expert and the Township's affordable housing expert will also probably want to chime in on that but I guess my question which you could tell me if that will be answered then is is this low income being offered to persons or families within our community I I can answer well I also one of my practice areas is affordable housing okay it cannot be limited to this it has to be State region-wide that's what the law says and people sign up and they're put on it's a lottery you can't prefer you can't prefer like a RAR in Township police officer or a RAR in Township firefighter or a rared in Township teacher over anyone else in this region and I'm going to ask our planning expert what is what is our region from the third round I know it's G to change in the fourth round do you remember who's I believe it's Somerset County mle no there's I don't know if it's I think it's 13 Somerset h no it's can you provide the answer yeah Jessica could you provide the answer yes let me look it up though real quick okay thank you any other questions not for Mr Ingram let's just get this answer for you on the region that at least in this third round Hunter and County was included in yeah I do I no no we have the the answer will be forthcoming pressure's on I believe it's Warren and Somerset and Somerset I believe it's region 300 middle sex and Somerset County and that's the region that you have to advertise region wide and they do lotteries I'm sorry could you repeat those counties it's hun middle SE and Somerset County in Region 3 COA Region 3 that's where the advertisements for the low and moderate income people have to go to but that's third round and I believe that it may change in the fourth round under this new affordable housing Bill I'm not sure okay thank you thank you Mr Jill may I ask another question chair can my name is Don Barnacle B and I he's already this is his second time third yeah it's the third time and time really before you sit off before who whoa whoa can ask the last question one last question one last question because before we set you off to do another traffic study I think it's very important that you look at the speed and the line of sight at of Wells Road we got a number of photos I was going to use this in my statement but but if you're going to go do that and you're going to ask the township the the police Township the Township Police to uh essentially do counts for you yes no no they're going to get a traffic expert the traffic expert's going to do the counts the police department is not doing any counts they're going to ask the police department for accident reports at the various intersections right but they also have the police also has a trailer that does uh speed measurements and and tells you that you're moving too fast the township does put it this way the speed limit is what the speed limit is if people are going to speed people are going to speed if you want that information you're going to have to go out there the speed the speed limit at least in the 2001 study was was was uh testified is 35 it's not it's 40 listen their study is going to have to be based on the speed limit the board can't tell the police department to do anything the board can tell these guys can't ask can't ask them to do something yeah can you ask can you ask them to set up one of their uh their velocity counters you could ask them yeah they don't have to say yes but and so where do you want it set up but how is this in relationship to this application because people are speeding speeding here here's why this is what he's gonna say he's gonna say that if the study is done at 45 40 m hour that's the posted speed limit and if 90% of the people are going 45 miles an hour for site distance he's going to say you should figure the site distance but my my response is going to be that's within the jurisdiction of the county that's not the township and it's a police Enforcement issue it's not he's not ask listen he's not asking it's a safety issue it's not it's not a be of count and a question of gee there's congestion here it's going to take me longer to pull out or something like that that's not what it's about what it's about is pulling out safely and what you're doing you're putting a four-way intersection just so you understand something that pulling out onto the roadway and pulling in that is with the County's jurisdiction that's not the Township's jurisdiction it's a County Road okay so you should write a letter to the county okay okay appreciate that okay thank you all right I think we uh I is there someone online oh that's right we we hear them okay so if there are no other questions for this Witness why whoa whoa whoa there might be board questions for this witness okay that's what I was going to say okay so are there any more board members that have questions okay so I go ahead you can go I have one no go ahead go so in uh at the last meeting uh our planner in her planning report had noted that town houses in R and Township are required to provide recreational opportunities um your response at the time is you're providing patios um is there an ordinance that requires that yes do you have that ordinance or should I ask Jessica would have it in Jessica or Jeff if someone give meance that noted it's required right but did she site an ordinance in her report it's 29675 B2 has standards for tow houses correct and you're saying that one of those standards is that they provide it was item number five in her report I believe I'm looking for that yeah I yeah comment five under there it's Recreation opportunities what page in your report are you on this is your July 9th 2024 report the second correct page 14 uh item 15 A5 right aha recreational opportunities and proposed setbacks in buffer area should be discussed so so the question is in you know because actually James and I sit on both boards um we've always when townhouse come have come into the township got gotten walking trails um and we've gotten Recreational Equipment or um things like that um I guess I'm really think it would be important especially in an over 55 Senior to provide some additional walking opportunities because again um 55 isn't old I'm sorry that's someone who's way over that um you know and so I really would would um like to see you know what kind of opportunities just for a passive little loop system that could connect some of the sidewalks and and create a loop system around that um be provided on the site and possibly even some the Recreational Equipment that you see along the trails where you stretch at this point or you do something like that again at that all the other um tow houses we've gotten tot Lots we've gotten we discussed I'm sorry but we we discussed that at the last meeting we talked about a connection to the adjoining property and we determined that there was nothing we'd be connecting to not she's not talking about talking about that the other point I brought up was perhaps the the neighbors who have but this don't really want people walking that close to their backyards well have sidewalks through the development if people wanted to walk and we also agreed to create a seating area so people could be outdoors again neigh that's not recreational opportunities as required by our ordinance so it goes it actually goes on to section 29675 B with other considerations it actually goes down to section 29675 B3 other considerations and it does explain and provide other examples for Passive Recreation such as uh garden plots uh Recreation facilities um for the residents so yeah obviously not top yeah yeah I'm not I'm not looking for a top lot um but I guess I just think I would encourage consideration for it it doesn't you know um again we're trying to promote active active living active Lifestyles and people 5 and older um you know they could have a younger partner and and you know to be able to walk a little bit other than just the front edge of the buildings I think would be a nice amentity for this property we'll look into it thank you okay I have a question do you want to talk about storm water sure okay so nothing's off limits today I have to refer to the page so give me a second so on page 14 page 14 of what plans yeah the plan okay is that the Landscaping plan yes it ends up being um circulation plan you got a storm water question on page 14 with the circulation plan yes because I believe that's the only place I can find the thrs okay so again far from an expert okay I just want to make sure when there was the last time we met they talked a lot about war okay and so I want to make sure that I understand what I'm seeing is in your diagram we have the on the North Corner the area that the storm water is going to drain into correct yeah okay and correct me I'm wrong within the development I I'm looking at where water is collecting into I want to say one two three four five six seven that is that how the plan works seven what I'm sorry so within the within the roads or within the area where the water runs off and drains and then go drainage areas yeah there's subset drainage are so I so everybody's talking about water and how there's a lot of water on on on the piece of property and how the neighborhood floods I'm thinking with the way the storm water is I just want to make sure I think this is a good plan and I just want to make sure I understand it you have the sub areas you have eight of them where the water is going to drain off the gutters into the into the driveways and down the road into drainage which is then going to take it to the storm water area the basins correct the Basin yep okay all right I just want to make sure I understood that um so in your in with that being said I don't know how to say it I'm thinking the water drainage on the property could be better because the water is coming from the gutters into the road into the drainage over the storage which is taking it away from the Neighbors which are down down well okay so when when the basins were originally designed it was designed for all the pavement that's out there now plus these 50,000 square feet Office Buildings right so the basins were sized for all of that volume instead what we're doing is you know we're keeping our impervious surface to the same amount essentially that's out there now and basically by breaking it down what we tried to determine is in every direction that the water is going to leave the site is what we're doing in this condition the same or better than what it is now and the answer to that is yes and because again those basins were designed for even more than we're putting into them because there was more impervious surface that was intended to be put into so we're not taking credit for the things that aren't there we're just simply saying as the site exists today with just the pavement down we're matching the runoff from that and we're keeping ourselves below the regulations that would require any modification because the difficulty is the whole standards by which things are designed the just simply the way you design bases is totally different so it becomes a you know a drastic exercise to change things that are already in place when we've already proven that we're keeping the imperious equivalent we're keeping the drainage equivalent we've designed it so that nothing is changing from the current conditions and that condition was already approved as having been an improvement from what was there originally which was the you know the phow farm field okay so when those basins were designed they were based on that being a farm field and then turning into the parking lots the the buildings all of that impervious so the reductions from this property we're already received what we're saying at this point is we're matching it we're we're at you know we're changing nothing in a negative fashion over what it already exists and frankly you know just I mean just in terms of the condition that the property would would be kept that in an Essence will will improve the site because right now it's it's not upcap properly when when we add landscaping and you know we have a good lawn growing it's just only going to get better okay thank you this has last nightmare when we're talking about storm water all this what you explained on the late term the way I understood you know what is that correct oh cleaner absolutely because right now you're having 100% dirty impervious from the pavement and we're going to have a reduction in that because now we're going to have more roof area in the same space yes so that's a big benefit in that area there's certainly a water quality benefit yes okay are we done with this witness hey Mr gromberg I think we can okay as promise now they they got they got them they have to do a traffic study now a question from someone who as ask a question online you want to allow that or not and then the guy from Well Road he's worried about accidents and people speeding you can make it you could what no not but why don't you make it why don't you make it your own question your question identify ourselves against my name is Donna Hart for f o ER s r to Mills court and the question is Wayne last time you mentioned privacy screen where is that privacy screen and she mentioned I saw ol green is in the way you olive green trapezoid extended from yellow townhous to property line what is that so as you see on the plan uh with North being top of page the southerly property line we're showing that darker green which is US planting you know additional um Landscaping along that entire Southern buffer and that and again a lot of that was the buffer that should have been installed 20 years ago by the prior applicant you know they built burn they never built any Landscaping so we would be installing that that Landscaping in addition to the you know what we're also proposing along Old York Road to the east um you know to kind of screen the the sides of the of the dwellings sit the down supposed to have a there's a pretty good tree row there now but there's certainly like that are on the residence property but there are gaps and aside from that we're going to provide our own screening should there you know their trees ever come down you know that we would have that if they installed it 20 years ago the site would be invisible right now but that didn't happen so you know we're going to put it on our property so we can maintain it you know as part of a site plan thank you okay Mr grber thank you well all the  trees you draft agreement as sample as well as a residency appli cut that had been discussed and i' like to pass it out I think we we do our next exib is A2 correct but it's two separate documents John do you want2 yeah 82 and 83 when he says he submitted them I submitted them to he submitted them to the board secretary and heitt recently he's handing them out as exib now they have he did not submit them at time about the water now they have to change something I don't know if you would like I will hand out I have my copies members of the public I have copies for you as well now you have to let any testimony that they're going to provide on it before you ask your questions yep okay in other words you think you want a sneak preview we'll give it to you but you got to wait till he's all done before you uh start asking the questions which one is going to be A2 and which one is a they know I'm online but but I they wanted me to turn on the microphone it wasn't working I couldn't so I can't talk so Jackie for purposes of the record A2 is titled Old York Road senior housing resal lease and A3 is titled res residency application please hand them out to the board experts not just me [Music] he's looking at his phone I go yes they are isn't there a time limit as to how long people can talk she's gonna pay for this she's gonna pay because she the way she talks to him once everyone has them and Mr ingr wait till I see the public come back to their chairs I'm going to ask Mr broomberg to walk the board through whatever relevant sections of A2 he wants to and walk him through whatever relevant sections of A3 he wants to everybody's okay on with respect to Steve just wait for them to get their copies we want everyone to get their copies so they can go along with the board when they're going through it hoping it's cut down on the number of questions and for those not attending in public I will put this up on the Google Drive Link for those to view at a later time and John I'm sorry the residency application is A3 thank you and the residential lease is A2 by the way did you ever get a paper copy of A1 from Mr Ingram Wayne is that the original still have last poor Wayne [Music] [Music] okay I'm waiting for the go ahead go ahead okay so I'm really going to point the board to the second page of the lease which is paragraph 4.1 under use and people are be read it into the record which says one occupant on must be 55 years old to be a resident an occupant under the age of 55 may be permitted to reside on the proper provided that occupant is one a member of the household who resides with another member of the household who is 55 years of age or over two a person who is the child of the permitted occupant provided the child is of the age of 19 years or over or three a person who is essential to the physical care of one or more of the adult occupants here's the important part occupants under the age of 19 are not permitted to reside on the property violation of this Clause will be grounds for eviction that's the enforcement mechanism so we're ensuring that nobody uh under the age of 19 would be an occupant of any leasehold space um the application form under A3 on the microphone in bold right before you sign anything says all residents must be 55 years of age or over and residents must not exceed the maximum income permitted at the time of application that's a big bold and underlining thing right in the beginning that lets people know that this is a special senior housing and for that wait a minute that's only for the affordable units though right this is a sample it would be the same thing for the market rate units are going to say that they're they can't exceed a maximum income no the the market rates wouldn't have the maximum income this was for to answer the questions about affordable housing so this is for the affordable housing one that puts everybody on notice obviously the market rate wouldn't have that language in but it would have the language about being 55 years of age or over so Steve to clarify all residents in the affordable housing units must be 55 or older yes versus in the lease it says only one person oh in the okay it would be 50 55 years of age or older or they would at least one person had to be 55 years of age or older but nobody could be under 19 okay in other words if someone is 55 or older they could be married or have a partner who's 35 45 and they could have a kid but the kid can't be under the age of 19 correct so then it really doesn't mean on on A3 it's not really all residents it said it would be primary A3 that part and bold is wrong yeah on A3 I would just cross it out for now or or make it applicant whatever but the point is this is the intention these are draft documents want don't we take A3 and cross out the word residents and say all applicants so I have kind of a a question that goes with this um does the owner and I guess the owner would have to answer the question have experience dealing with age restricted rental units yeah I can't answer that question is is the applicant available to answer that question or at maybe the next hearing I guess I'd like to hear about the qualifications of the applicant in managing and owning affordable housing units and rental units I I would say that it really doesn't matter for purposes of this use we're we're we're seeking the approval of this this uh type of use we're going to have somebody who's involved that is going to have to follow the guidelines of affordable housing and senior housing Steve you're asking for D1 use variants I think the board is entitled to know who's going to be operating it what kind of experience they have because I think that goes into their determination they might think this is the best use in the world but if the person that's going to be operating it's going to be their first one I think they could take that into consideration but joh if they're listen if you're gonna hire someone to operate it and have the guy say that it's a prop it's a you're you're this becomes an approval what stops them from selling the property it's not the intention but listen what you want to do you heard the board memb question you can do whatever you want with it I don't think it's an an appropriate question is what I'm saying if I thought you know that if sometimes someone ask a question I say you can't ask that I'm not saying they can't ask that yeah I guess when my based on experience at planning board when we've approved affordable housing or where there's a uh rental properties when came in US own both be talking at the same time when the affordable housing developers came into the planning board for every single project they had someone testify who wasn't an expert who was going to be either responsible for managing the unit or managing the unit testify every single affordable housing project that was approved and now this this has aary housing all the ones related to that have been approved yeah in the township but it's just one it us the ability to understand listen yeah I that it's a totally legitimate question it's up to them we can't make them do anything it's up to them what to do I'm just explaining the background of it it's up to you yeah well we'll have to address that at another meeting if we're going to address it because we'll have to address that at another meeting or or uh we'll deal with the issue that's it for the leas A2 and A3 okay and you already said that you would we could take paragraph 4.1 and plop it into a deed restriction that's correct and there's also for the affordable housing units that's going to have to be a deed restriction also correct correct do do you know is it 30 years or it's 40 years under the new law 40 years on the new regulations so I'd recommend 40 years yeah it's 30 years under the third round but it pumped up the 40 years the Restriction under the fourth round and so if the board approves this I'm going to rec commend and give you an opinion that it should be a 40-year data restriction and not a 30-year data restriction you agree with me on that yes I agree yeah we agree with that so um have any questions about these asking if they have any questions about anybody have any questions about that uh the only thing I have is that I just want to uh confirm that on page nine number 19 lists the default by tenant which would be a reason for eviction and so one of the questions earlier tonight was around if someone uh the tenants were uh breaking the law or not following the law and there were complaints and there is a statement 19.3 failure tenants failure to carry out tenants obligations under applicable laws statutes regulations and ordinances that's correct that's all I have anybody have any questions uh from the board or our professionals before I open it up to okay anyone in the public that has a question concerning the lease or questions that were around the lease hearing none you got two questions okay hold on again Donna can you can tip that there you go Donna Hart Forester h r t hyphen f o r s ER to Mills Court um I am just seeing this for the first time tonight I'm only on page two but um there's this you know the board is seeing this for the first time tonight also all right so is this the only opportunity to ask questions on this Le you know what that's a good point maybe 19 Pages we should kick this to the continued hearing and have any questions on the lease after people have time to go through it not only public but maybe board members maybe that's the most efficient use of time and let them put their architect on I only got to page two I understand Mr grber what do you want to do Mr gromberg what do you want to do do you want to have the questions on the lease for next time and put your architect on right now or do you w to just if you have questions now it's going to be I think a slow process because people are just looking I like to get the architect on now yeah I just just a notice it's already 9:37 there's no new testimony After Time how long's the architect going to take direct well we're going to 10 pardon we're going to 10 okay so we we'll do our best yep just remember not fast efficient so okay so any questions on the lease we're gonna so continue till the next time yep [Music] I assume that you were Jeff fler that's correct and you were sworn in on July 18 2024 so Mr Bromberg why don't you get him qualified Mr fler would you please give the board the benefit of your qualifications I have a bachelor's of architecture from NGIT I'm a licensed architect in New Jersey Delaware and Pennsylvania I've had my office in Flemington burrow for the past 27 years I offer Mr fleser as an expert in the field of architecture anyone have any questions yeah have you been accepted by any uh planning board to Board of adjustment in Hunter County as an expert yes I have appeared in front of this board in the past you remember I've appeared in front of this board in the past remember how how far in the past um within the last two years this board this board the planning board I'm sorry the the zoning board this is the zoning board but we don't remember you just so you know yeah it was on an application on cool Road okay remember what the project was it it was a an addition to an existing home uh they require variance you was it the pan application the oh yes okay yes that that was back in um earlier this year actually that was might have been this year was a homeowner's case you didn't make you didn't make a b impression I didn't I didn't make any impression okay oh that's the one right they had the house and they had the garage the commercial thing oh I'm sorry okay yeah now I remember you fine that's yes are we good to go yes we're good well we accept him as a as an architectural expert you accept them as an architect yes so Jeff why don't you give the board the benefit of what what we're uh planning on doing here and any of these exhibits that you put up quiet any of these exhibits that you have up here were they submitted to the board in advance and uh or they changed in any way submitted they submitted eight photographs um they came in like no that was that was Wayne did that for planning that's not nothing photograph talking architecture architecture I'm talking about the board up here yeah the current board displ is sheet A3 of we have it's sheet A3 we have proposed foundation and first floor plan A1 we have the proposed second floor and roof plan A2 and we have elevations and renders I assume that means renderings A3 and our plans are dated December 8 2023 and I don't see any revision date is that what you have on up on that board that's correct this does not have to be entered as an exhibit it's part of file great so why don't you take the board through the design um so the sheet A3 is depicting the um one set of eight units um it's a twostory units um approximately 2,000 square feet two and a half bathrooms um in each cluster of eight units there are two three-bedroom units and six I'm sorry three two three bedroom units and six two bedroom units is there a chart on these plans that say that somewhere I no okay so give it to me slowly then because I got to take it down and notes then there's eight units there's eight units in a cluster in a group two of which are three bedroom units six of which are two bedroom units okay eight units in a eight units in a cluster and how many clusters there's three for a total of 24 units okay got it each unit is approximately 2,000 square feet um with two and a half bathrooms um and one one car garage um the units are stepped back from each other um to separate each pair of two units sorry okay okay um the the front facing facades of the units um thank you the front-facing facades of the unit um are stepped down to give a lower appearance in the front um the the materials on the units in the front it has a stone base and Hearty siding and trim um asphalt shingled roof as well um the building to the peak the height is approximately 30 feet um which is standard height for a residential building and is that conform with the ordinance yes yes it does anything else that you need to discuss in terms of the architectural plans elevations and materials um I was mentioned there there are patios in the back and they're separated by a screen wall between units um it's it's they're really just a traditional uh residential style have you referred the board to sheet A3 so they can see what you're talking about yeah that right up on the screen yes that's she answer happy to answer any questions about it will the end will the end units um have a screen as well or just the interior just the interior thank you you guys have any questions there's no basement walking in are they I'm sorry there's no basement wait yes so no I'm sorry Lindsay had a question and then James started talking so it is it's slab on great we did not hear the question is there a basement no there there will be no basement at slab on ra James my question is when they walk in is the is the uh the main floors is that flush with the ground or they have to step up or step down um there's a single Step Up into the unit just point of reference as people get older that single step becomes more and more difficult yeah so there it would be possible to provide a ramp if if required okay are are the units uh handicap accessible as they're constructed uh they are not are a certain percentage uh adaptable yeah the affordable one of the affordable units needs to be adaptable yes what about Market there's Market units none of them are adaptable well they they could be yes we we're not proposing that at this time but they could is that required isn't that required Under the UCC the UC the uni con code I know it's required for I know it's required for the affordable I'm not sure about the market rate can can you guys look into that yeah I'll I'll double check that but it's my understanding just the affordable unit but all all the floor plans are the same so they could all be adapted if required well the first floor can be yes not the second floor right there's no elevator correct correct and there are no bedrooms on the first floor correct oh there is a the main the the primary Suite is on the first floor oh it is yes in all the units did I miss that okay thank you so ex uh where is the step is it from the sidewalk to the porch or is it from the porch to go into the unit it's it's from the sidewalk to the porch okay so then it's on grade from once you get on the porch into the unit correct oh okay that's what I was think I just have a question about um Energy Efficiency and I know that the um New Jersey um clean energy program has some residential construction um incentives to encourage new construction to be more energy efficient and I was wondering if you were taken advantage of any of those new programs um clean energy program in the Board of Public Utilities um that's not something that I've discussed with the client but I'm sure they they will take advantage of any rebates that that may be available I think it's um a great asset or um amenity to um seniors that are on fixed incomes if they could save some money on their utility bills I know it would be passed through um from the landlord to the tenants and especially because of fixed incomes anything that we can do to make um it more um affordable over time um would be a benefit to the residents and also from an energy uh resiliency and Energy savings perspective persective it has a bigger uh CommunityWide benefit yes Jeff I believe it was discussed at the last hearing about um possible deck um construction or patio enlargement um could you just testify or just confirm that there would be no propose either individually or by the owner without going back to the board yes I we haven't discussed increasing the size of the the patio and and if anybody needed to they would have to come back before the board okay thank you correct yes right that's why it's a they're not it's not like a subdivision with individual own Lots in order to do it it would require a change to the plan yeah I think last time when we talked about it you're answer was that it would be in the lease that they can't do any changes like that right um and honestly I have to look at it to see that that's the case too and if not we can amend them this is a very draft lease you say it's a draft lease but when we get to the approval will this be the lease well it you can the the basic term that I read in would be the lease okay would be the provision and that's the deed restriction that we talked about now um there may be other right boilerplate Provisions in here that might change with the lease agreement in the future but the Deep restriction language that was really the import of having that lease before the board tonight okay so then the only thing I would ask and we can talk about it the next time is the the section that I talked about the the default um I would assume that that would be in the lease yes okay but that's what every lease has language like that that's actually the boiler plate to be able to evict somebody who's breaking the law or doing something that's not not appropriate yes hey uh Steve real quick the other one on the uh just question about the lease is this lease going to be um I didn't know when you said draft because we're going to have questions for you at the next meeting for the lease is there going to be if there's an additional draft of the lease that will be provided obviously right correct meaning I I know maybe you put this together to say hey look at this provision so that it at least gave that one provision that was going to be I just we didn't look at it yet so I don't know if this is going to change at all approval yeah well I I I agree with that um I guess I I just didn't know whether or not this was prepared specifically for this project was it taken [Music] for yeah well I mean we did a little bit more than that but [Laughter] yes I guess um are we going to uh are you going to describe a little bit more the Second Story elevations for us and explain the differences in the types of units and how they're constructed there there are two different uh variations on the front fac um there's a grouping of two smaller Dormers and then a group of a small Dormer the larger Dormer just to differentiate the thank you the pairs of units um yeah specifically what I was talking about I'm sorry is the second floor are you going to discuss the second floor plan as show as depicted on A1 and A2 so the the second floor plan um the three-bedroom unit there are two bedrooms on the second floor with a loft area um with another area open to below um and then on the two bedroom units there's a one bedroom on the second floor with bathroom and a study area with an open Loft area so how uh the study area um and as well as IC storage on that level yeah um which is a great feature to have um the there are some other tow houses in Ritt and Township where Studies have been converted illegally to bedrooms how how does that type of how does your design not facilitate that there's no closet provided in that in that space the answer is you put a condition in say that's correct thank you is the color of the exterior the color that you're providing is yes the color rendition that you have yes okay yeah yeah that depicts the color in the downstairs baths are there's X's drawn over are those um walk-in showers in the downstairs baths yes the the the main floor bedroom number one yes that's a a walk-in shower I think that's a a really valuable amenity to any seniors any other questions okay well this was a good ending Steve do you want to talk about the next dates do you I guess you don't want to open up to the public to ask Mr I think I'm sorry I thought we did [Music] sorry yes please come forward I'm sorry maybe so he does have to come back yeah no thank you for the record it's Eugene fre you know three Mills Court sure it's Eugene franchino three Mills court so in terms of the uh height is does it me is it the 35t or height what's the height requirement and as it met the height requirement is submitted um what's the maximum height I believe for the residential it's 35t what's the maximum height of 30 feet okay and that's to the peak so of the 20 or the 24 units how many are proposed three B units and how many so there there'll be six three bedroom units and 18 two bedrooms so you you propos more than obviously so if you have three bedrooms you're going to have at least you can have four or five people in husband and wife and then two other bedrooms so you can have is there a um ratio in terms of square footage to um you know for occupants not not in a residential setting and has the three bedroom unit met whatever sanitary or or sewer requirements in terms of capacity for a three bedroom unit I think that was answered by Mr Ingram previously yes yes in terms of the utilities where would the utilities be placed on the property are they interior are they exterior flats or how were the utilities to be placed so the the condensing units would be at the rear of the prop of that each unit um and then any utilities would be internal so air conditioning uh all the air well I guess the condensing outside yes any air handler would be inside now in terms of the um like is there any additional property that the uh the tenant well the homeowner would own that they would be able to come in to a to an HOA I'm not sure if there was even an HOA proposed in this development or not Yeah well yeah this this is a rental property so they're not going to be owned by the units they're all going to be rented all all 24 units yes so the so there can't be any expansion in terms of in in a traditional townhouse you would have certain percent you know you'd actually have a deeded spot there'll be individual Deeds for the unit would anything be expanded beyond that like a patio a porch or anything like that no that's what we talked about that any type of expansion would require the owner of the property landlord to come back before this board so what the plan is is what the plan is I'm turn I'm not turning my head only because I'm talking into the microphone I don't want you to think I'm being rude yeah I'm trying to understand too when you only put in 12 spots for additional parking and yet you have units that could alone have this is the architect uh um do you have a question for the architect no I I I'll save that for okay all right I have nothing further thank you yes yes thank you run Jeff run John my question is is when do you guys believe that you will have a traffic study completed we can't come back soon than two months okay and we were tayor was suggesting that we have only this applicant yeah going forward this would be the only application scheduled so I'm looking at you Steve so don't cancel the last minute oh okay so it it would likely be for the end of November or December what's your so if you're going for the end of November you have the 21st and since we would like for this to be the only application there's already one carried to December 5th so you would be offered December 19th we we can do the 21st if there's some flexibility on the 21 Day thing and we won't complain if we get reports late I I would suggest that it would be as if when you guys submitted the lease the draft of the lease if it's you know in a short amount of time just like don't do it any closer than 10 days before that's fine don't do it like you did no that that was an exhibit this is going to be report we need to days yes that's fine appreciate that hearing this application Contin 21 yes1 but this is the only matter onv 21 so let's just give an example to the public if the information is provided on that date when would it be loaded into the Google Drive so that they would be able to see it a couple days as soon as I can but I need everybody to understand I am one person well let's let's again we're just trying to let you know that please don't call and say that I I don't see the documents let's let's give a couple days I am one person and it in the zoning department is just myself and Jeff so I just need the public to understand we're doing our best [Music] yes Jeffrey please check 30 we're to get this extended to January 31 days last okay that's fine january1 okay it's been a long day okay no further that's it thank you all very much appreciate it okay can I get a motion to adjourn all second all in favor anyone sticking around