raise the standards for the quality of minutes you have to understand when I was teaching I was appalled at the poor quality of grammar and spelling in The Graduate level yep oh yeah I fully support you of mine same um okay so i' make a motion to approve the minutes of uh May 9th and May 20th do I have a second second Paula second roll call Carrie yes Kevin yes John yes Paula yes and Rick yes so the minutes are approved okay so in terms of um our next agenda item on the community health Improvement plan um I guess uh Jamie won't be joining us and really the the purpose of putting this on the agenda was um uh was that Erica MN matter um had some edits that you recommended for the Improvement plan which were sent to you in the pre-board packet um basically um I think the edits were intended to Not Duplicate efforts to deal with substance abuse and mental health issues in the town and um sort of lean towards um uh more collaboration with the Board of Health and potentially with uh in time um with our colleagues to the north and our uh collaborate collaboration um I don't know if anybody had any comments on that um if we decide to take a a a vote um it would really be more to um endorse the both the community health needs assessment and the chip um although clearly it's not up totally up to the Board of Health and health department to get this done it really is going to require a broad collaboration so were there any comments on uh the edits that um Erica had suggested no no comment okay do you think we need to take a vote to endorse this or or not I'm I'm actually not 100% sure um what do people think did we our previously vote to um incorporate it um well we've we we certainly voted to start the process and we've been deeply involved in it um I think I guess in my mind if we voted to endorse it it sort of puts a stake in the ground that we're on board with this and you know to move it ahead and so that would be a reason to as opposed to it just being another Consultants report um that flies by our desks so um so on that basis I would I would suggest we vote to endorse it yeah the the whole thing not just the edits no exactly the whole thing yeah okay that's that's what I was getting that if you've already previous voted to endorse it you just need to um vote on the edits but you yeah you can just simply say you know um vote uh vote to adopt this as amended okay cover is is that a motion Kevin that's a motion okay I'll second it roll call Carrie yes Kevin yes Joan yes Paula yes and Rick yes okay I think the next steps on this is that um Jamie and correct me if I'm wrong a day but I think Jim's going to have it um you know fully uh printed in its final format and uh and distributed and then we're going to need need to work together um to develop uh an operational plan you know whether we have a Coordinating Committee whether we have a coordinator for position for this how we're going to to lay it out um that'll be the next next piece of work that'll be a good good piece of work too all right so uh next on the agenda is the um uh is the nicotine free generation tobacco regulation Amendment and um you know this I know has been somewhat controversial um but uh we've been talking about it for the last several months uh we had the hearing on May 23d and I think it's really um time for us to to make a a decision um on it so um What I've Done um what I would like to do is I would like to kind of spend a little bit of time talking about this amendment from my perspective and you know where we've been what my thoughts are um around this um and then I we're gonna kind of go around Robin and I would ask every every member to uh you know to to comment and and give their thoughts as well so so I will probably it'll probably take me five or 10 minutes to to walk through this so bear with me um so first of all I'd like to thank all the residents and interested parties who expressed their thoughts and gave us feedback and I'm going to refer to this as nfg just uh as a an abbreviation um you know participating in the process is very important for healthy community and while we may not all agree open discussion and debate is helpful um I read every single email and um we got over 200 um a few from Reading many from across the state and a few from out of state um and I listened to the entire hearing on May 23rd so I think I have a good idea of the issues that have been raised so just to be clear on the process that we've gone through um in addition to soliciting emails prior to the hearing and frankly we've accepted them after the hearing um the board elected to have a public hearing on this matter although we actually weren't required by law to do so a second hearing was requested but I declined to offer one because the first one was well publicized we met all the legal requirements ments um and it was well attended and well chaired by Carrie I may mention as well um there was really no need for a second hearing nor additional public comment on this matter for this meeting in my opinion so and finally you know just to be clear the amendment to the town of reading tobacco regulations that we're considering tonight only forbids the commercial sale of tobacco in a products to those born after January 1st 2004 but it doesn't prohibit the purchase use or possession of tobacco or nicotine products meaning the act of smoking is not criminalized in um or forbidden in any way it's just the sale of products to certain individuals as I thought about all the feedback um I received um we all received actually um I sort of uh dissected it into three lines of thought um first is what we all agree on second is um what where are there reasonable questions and doubt about the impact of the amendment and then lastly you know this whole issue of personal freedom Choice autonomy and the role of the board so those are the three areas I just want to walk through and give everyone the public as well as the board members my perspective um in terms of what we all agree on I would say uh virtually everybody agrees on two points one is that tobacco and nicotine use is unhealthy and it's a leading cause of illness disability and death via its impact on the circulation system like heart attack stroke peripheral circulation problems as as well as um a risk factor for multiple cancers not only lung but you know cancers of the mouth throat the esophagus the stomach pancreas colon and bladder are all increased in smokers um and to some degree in nicotine uses although the data is is less there so even some of the most Ardent detractors of the policy admitted and testimony that it's a dirty and disgusting habit but that's not the reason we're doing this policy policy is really on the um health of the public in the town of reading the second issue which um I think everybody agrees is that um really no one thinks or publicly supports the use of tobacco and nicotine in underage children now defined as under the age of 21 so there are a couple areas we we can all agree on regardless of one's position um on this policy um there are a couple areas where you know people have reason to disagree because the future impact cannot be accurately predicted um and so the first of these is really what would be the impact of the policy on the retailers of tobacco and nicotine in the town um you know on one hand Pro prohibiting tobacco and nicotine will undoubtedly impact the business as the customer base slowly declines over decades and users go out of town or out of state to purchase their products on the other hand the change in the customer base is very very slow allowing a lot of time for retailers to innovate around other products that they can sell we certainly heard from businesses um actually that businesses would close uh and and be impacted when flavored products were prohibited or when the age of sale went from 18 to 21 a few years ago but very few if any of those happened so I think in terms of the impact on retailers in the town specifically I think that given the slow pace of the change um it's not clear whether it's really going to have um a business impact that I think a lot of retailers are concerned about the second of these uncertainties is what the policy will have on the use of these products under 21 on people under 21 so in speaking to those closer to the situation in the schools it appears that um youth under 21 obtain access to tobacco and nicotine mainly through three ways one is there social Circle uh from friends and relatives who are just over 21 uh and still in their sort of Social Circle their older siblings their siblings friends and so forth the second is online sales and I was shocked to see because I looked that you know a lot of this can be purchased online and then La lastly adults who legally traffic these to miners um I think this policy will only slowly impact the first method the the Social Circle uh because over time um you know the people who have legal access to purchasing uh this will become older and older and older and not in the Social Circle of a 17-year-old or a 15y old um I think that adults who sell to minors and online online sales will not be impacted Okay so you know whether there'll be a booming illegal black market for nicotine and tobacco I I think is debatable we don't we don't really know what we do know is that 8 to 12% of reading children in middle and high school currently use nicotine and tobacco products uh and this is in a survey from a year ago so that's 8 to 12% um and while that's a lot lower than it was a decade ago a lot because of restricting the age to 21 it does represent 1 to 200 children um who likely will be addicted for the rest of their lives to nicotine and suffer the consequences um to their health anything in my opinion anything we can do to reduce even a small number of underage uses is worthwhile so so is it going to impact under 21 it's complicated and um I think there's my personal opinion is there's a good chance there would be some improvement um and potentially a significant Improvement down the line in decades the third and probably the most hotly debated uh issue was that of personal freedom Choice the role of the board in restricting tobacco and nicotine uh permanently uh which are legal products here's where you know there was a lot of passionate disagreement um and you know as an American personal choice personal frings are very important certainly to me and gave me pause to really think about this there has always been tension I think in this country certainly in public health between those Desiring no limits on personal freedom and those willing to balance personal freedom with what the US Constitution says is quote promoting the general welfare of the country which I think is what we as a board are doing or trying to do so there's a number of issues that as I dissected the 200 emails and and listen to the hearing couple a few issues to try to sort this out okay so one is some have said that this policy represents an overreach of the board um and you know the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court disagrees and stating in their March 2024 decision quote the bylaw is rationally related to a legitimate government interest and does not violate the equal protection of article one of the Massachusetts Declaration of Rights um you know it ruled that local boards are well within their rights to enhance state laws in their Community as long as they meet a minimum state standard and certainly there's no us constitutional right to nicotine and tobacco so you know my perspective is the board has legitimate interests in this in terms of Public Health um we have a role to play um one may disagree about this but um I think I think the courts have rulle uh on it so another concern that was raised um was that this policy would create two distinct groups of adults um those that can purchase nicotine and tobacco and those that cannot and that this was somehow discriminatory um you know this it will create two different groups but um you know this there's a wellestablished legal approach approach referred to as grandfathering um you know and grandfathering identifies dates or birthdays or situations in which prior to a new regulation or law the previous condition may exist but subsequent conditions or situations must conform to the new regulation or statute this is what grandfathering is is and it's it's seen in you know zoning it's seen in in building codes it's seen in tax law and a lot of other situation um it basically is a way to transition from one set um from a previous condition or set of rules or regulations or statutes to a new set um with by grandfathering in the previous group or situation or people and um and applying certain new rules to um the new group um you know this has been done for eons in this country it's done all the time it's not viewed as discriminatory or illegal by the courts so the idea of having two separate groups is simply one of the things that this policy will in fact do but it's done in many other legal situations another um commonly raised concern is the uh is the slippery slope um argument um and this is a rhetorical argument um and these are either commonly called in uh debate societies as either reducio ad absurdum or uh what aboutism and um an example of reducio ad absurdum would be you know the next thing you know they'll prohibit the sale of ice cream and Twinkies to those people who are obese um and we actually heard this in um in some in some of the uh statements made an example of whataboutism would be well what about alcohol and marijuana um are they next you know you going to prohibit them from being sold in both both arguments and as I think about it the tobacco and nicotine issue is taken way out of context and EXT and extreme examples are generated that really provoke and inflame rather than carefully and rationally consider the context of the problem um you know in terms of um the context is really what we do about the scourge of nicotine and tobacco today given our history culture the use in the community and scientific knowledge to the what about alcohol and marijuana I would say you know what about heroin and cocaine and meth why aren't people advocating for their right to use these substances based on personal choice they actually kill fewer people each year in this country than those impacted by the long-term effects of nicotine into Paco so you can see you know the one about approach although it's very rhetorical um doesn't really help us rationally decide this particular issue and in terms of the twinkie and ice cream argument well I think that's a little bit absurd not worth commenting on and then finally and I'll wrap up with this um the argument is made that adults have the right to personal choice or you or not use and the government shouldn't interfere with that right here I question the concept of choice in the context of an addictive substance like other addictive substances that the government has prohibited nicotine is highly addictive within weeks of sustained use much more addictive than alcohol and marijuana and when addicted the whole concept of personal choice in my mind is questioned when when there's a biological addiction the the issue a personal choice I can do or not do um is a little bit um really sort of doesn't doesn't fit with that um when underage children become addicted science has shown that the impact on their brains makes it even harder for them to quit because of the nicotine effect on their the the receptor cells in their brain and statistics show that addicted underage children are more likely to use other substances that are illegal in fact Studies have shown that nine out of 10 adults uh adult users started when they were under 18 and the vast majority of adult users have tried to quit at least once and many have tried to quit many times these facts don't sound to me like these individuals are making personal choices of their free will to use nicotine or tobacco but rather they're trapped in nicotine addiction against their Free Will so you know for all these reasons you know to me the weight of the evidence and the rationale for the policy you know demands that I I vote in favor of this amendment to our Uh current tobacco regulations um I would now ask sort of maybe we'll go around and uh I know that was a little bit long- winded but I I thought it was important to sort of get some of these issues out on the table um because we've heard so much and uh you know maybe go around to each uh board member and uh you know solicit their um perceptions and and thoughts about this whole issue so maybe we could start with Carrie um thank you Rick um and and I I agree that that you know this was this is an important question um I I will say um there was at least one suggestion uh during testimony at our hearing that um members of the board had already had their minds made up and I think it's important to understand that I can't speak for my other board other fellow board members but the practice of Public Health is not one where we make decisions and then find the data to um to support it it's a process of considering all of the different impacts and weighing the the the merits and weighing the question of whether you know the impact on population health is significant enough to um tip the balance versus consideration of individual rights right um and I think one example of that actually I read so I read a lot of things like you Rick I read a lot of things in preparation for this I looked at the reg I looked at our community health Improvement plan that we just supported and I looked at the process we went through it I reviewed every document that was sent to us every email from all over the country um lots of emails from folks outside of reading and outside of Massachusetts um I looked at the mass Supreme Judicial Court decision I reviewed the testimony I reviewed the notes that I took I listened carefully during testimony and I and made my own notes and reviewed those notes to make sure I understood what the issues were I really appreciated everyone's willingness to come and speak and share their perspective it's really important it's an important part of the public health and policymaking process um you know and I Look to thinking about so so what is the charge of public health our charge is to prevent and protect the health of the public we're not practitioners we're not phys you know we're not acting as nurses or doctors who are treating people who are experienced disease or ill health we're looking at how do we prevent ill health how do we encourage circumstances that either provide for better health or support people's choices to be healthy and you know looking at that we're talking about enabling conditions for a healthy life and prevention is a lot of how we do our work right we do a lot of Education we do a lot of um encouraging healthy behaviors making the Healthy Choice the easier Choice through programming and and awareness raising and then we also we do inspections and we do do regulation and you know I don't think Public Health ever goes to regulation first um and ever is a big word so I probably shouldn't say that but but but that's not you know that's not the bent right um so you have to look at what are the efforts that have been made to prevent and are they working and you have to look at what the population impact is and Rick you've done a great job of of of um going through the the impacts on population Health the uh astounding numbers of people who contract an astounding range of disease and that serves to increase health care demand it increases Health Care spending it's not it's not creating conditions for health um I looked at you know what we talked about in the CH in our chip and our Community Health uh assessment we talked about wanting to build resilience in young people um and encourage their healthy lives in the future and we talked about increasing healthy behaviors across the lifespan and I think that looking at a adoption of this regulation in in that context does make sense um so I want to say too that I did think about like you the economic piece um I I certainly understand the the words we heard from different business people I worked in small business for a number of years before I came to Public Health um and I I understand that but I also remember you know do a little research and look back and I remember uh when smokefree workplace was a topic in the early 2000s and a lot of restaurants were very very concerned they said if you make it so people can't smoke in my restaurant I will lose business they will go to the next town over I will go out of business and what happened actually was that businesses show they had an increase in people being there because there was um smokefree environment right so so and I'm I'm not I don't think it's it's a direct analogy but but that there's a there are um fears and concerns and then the sort of how does the fear and concern play out isn't necessarily um quite as dire as folks generally expect and while I value and the economic piece and while I do consider business impact you know I I can't outweigh I can't put more weight on that than the population health and the numbers of folks who become addicted to a product that is designed to be addictive and as the restrictions have come in on different types of tobacco and nicotine products we have learned that that the products are are being designed to provide more nicotine they're being designed to be absorbed more readily so that they become addictive even more quickly than the traditional roots and you know that for me I is is the piece that goes against this um the notion I had someone suggested that we ought to be thinking about my body my choice and I agree I it's not a choice and it is because the purveyors of these products are deliberately creating a market for themselves by selling addictive more and more addictive products and I think that you know in these circumstances I I the only sensible action to me if we're going to protect the Public's health and follow our charge is to vote to accept this amendment um it was a tough decision it was not one that I had made on May 23rd I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and talking with people in support and opposed and unsure ever since then and um I appreciate the chance to talk about what that you know how my thought process and I appreciate the chance to um have heard from the public and now make our decision thanks thank you Carrie um Kevin all right so um I actually started out in this process thinking it was a pretty good idea I think when Morin first brought it to us it seemed like a very simple idea but everything's always tends to seem that way until you as Rick you did and Carri you did look at it from every Every Which angle and come back at I have to say there's one there's one thing I can't get past on this one and that is will it really have the effect that it is intended to have in other words I know the structural part of it is designed to prevent those going on or after that date to be able to purchase the products but the product will will assuredly make their way into their hands one way or the other right so I have a hard time implementing things that don't actually have a good effect in the end in other words you're going to implement this and you'd hope that from doing something like this you would have a great effect and I don't even know if you had a great effect a 100 years from now know it's tough to say that it it's tough to I can't get past a couple of things one that a 21-year-old isn't waking up on their 21st birthday um thinking about picking up smoke smoking because now they can purchase the product that's not happening I'm assuming I'll take that's a leap it's a big assumption but I I I doubt that that's happening they usually have been using um tobacco nicotine products prior to to getting to that point for a town like reading and then and then for Massachusetts to follow suit when they change the age to 21 you know obviously that that changed how they were able to get that product into their hands as you alluded to earlier it's through you know online I didn't even know about that one Rick that's that's that's a news to me I don't know how you get I don't know how you get past that one but oh well um or other means right so this to me doesn't feel like it's going to generate the Difference Maker that it's intended to and because of that I have a hard time wanting to get on board with something like this quite frankly what you mentioned earlier Rick I'd be more on board with if you're under 21 in the town of reading and and in possession uh and use let's set up let's work with the police department and and a day and let's come up with some kind of policy that addresses that whether it be citation or what have you I mean if you really want to affect a greater change in the youth that has a big effect on it I also you know with the with how much has declined um in youth since um the 70s um as a big difference maker I think education has been the leading um causation of that um and and I think that's where you know you're if you are having like a citation um system that's the same as an education system where it's really just saying you know you're not supposed to have this product you shouldn't you shouldn't have been able to purchase this product in U Massachusetts right um I think that something like that while it's complex I think it affects it more than than what this policy would so you know I went round back and forth um on on all sides of this issue that was the one thing I couldn't get past though I just don't think it's going to affect what you think it's going to I I think the same amount of people that are smoking um after that um after it goes into effect they're still going to smoke I think new smokers are still going to pick it up because it's going to be readily available from One Source or another and because of that it feels like we're just we're doing it it's almost like a statement we're we're making more of a statement than actually doing Public Health in a positive way and you know I don't I don't have failings on if the state does it one way or another I'd be interested to see that kind of debate if the state would take this on and do it at their level I think at least on the minimum getting back to the economic part of it I didn't really consider the economic part of it very well other than that would be more Equitable if the state took it on U much like they took on uh age 21 um beyond that I mean I I don't know you know again I know convenience stores don't want to hear that but we're in we in public health you know that's that's first and foremost so to me I just not getting enough return for this kind of amendment and and I I definitely to to the folks what you said earlier Rick it's it's not an overreach we can do this the Board of Health is absolutely within the realm to go ahead and do this and it's backed up by the court so you know overreach is in the right term I just don't think you're get the benefit um from it I just I don't see it changing the narrative out there the one thing that we've never been able to do and probably never will be able to do is you're not going to legislate human behavior it will adapt it will move around you let your your policy and it'll still be in place so now you have a policy that has effect um in the realm of the business world but no effect in the realm of Health that's my fear from something like this I just don't I just don't I can't get on board because I can't see it actually decreasing education definitely decrease some kind of policy where you if you're in possession of it there's a citation I think that over time would certainly deter um people from having it so that to me is a bigger is a better conversation to have in this one so I'm I'm just not in favor with this the other part that I would probably and I and I really thought about this the last couple days we've had um people speak in favor of it most notably our own um tobacco expert Morin Busby um but I haven't heard somebody come out with compelling arguments against it as a board member I'd like to hear both sides of the argument there there must be there must be professionals out there that that not are lobbyists not somebody that has a stake in in the game but somebody that is in governance and and understands uh Public Health that must have some arguments against it that we haven't considered I think this is a a really large um amendment to take on by volunteers without first hearing from pros and cons from Professionals in the industry so you know I would say if you're if you're in favor of this I think you should at least have it vote set up for another meeting bring in professionals that can that we can ask questions of that can give us both sides of of of the um the policy what it looks like what are the effects what's been going on in the current towns that it's been instituted in I know there's probably almost zero little data on that because it's so recent um you know has any other countries taken taken this on already saw good and positive effects of it I really like that full picture which I don't feel like I've been able to find or get as a board member so that that's my feelings on it I think we should move it to another night and set up a panel um and have a robust discussion in that regard I always I always just fear what we don't know when we do something like this um and the unintended consequences of it that's my that's my uh feelings on it I appreciate you listening thank you Kevin appreciate it Paula thank you um I too have uh paid attention to all the emails and and literature and data that has has been sent our way and I have been thoughtfully trying to weigh the pros and cons of it I agree that one of my struggles has also been personal freedom but then I thought about things like um helmet for motorcycles which to me is kind of on the same uh level in terms of mitigating harm to individuals um and that has worked out well we've also had um the since the 90s when I was a public health nurse here in the town of reading and the taxes were instituted on cigarettes we've used those taxes for years uh for Education um I helped with u smoking sensation programs um which was a very Trust FR rating thing for me to do because and I'm not preaching to the choir this is for the public um we've mentioned the idea of addiction of of nicotine how addictive it is uh the truth is that it is as addictive if not more so than heroine um and as you you Rick indicated that's where we have to step in as public health uh as a board of Public Health to mitigate harm to the public that is our duty that's what our that's what we commit to do [Music] um the idea of the lack of knowing how much this is going to benefit us we're going to have to try I I we have no nowhere else to go but to try um and once we have data then we have something to do deal with um and try in the process of trying we're hope the goal I to my perspective is to try and get it to go to the state level so that we can have uh across the board and have it more Equitable for everyone so I do see the I I I absolutely understand where people are coming from when they feel that their rights are being um infringed upon but as a public as a member of the public our rights are being infringed upon too because it is our insurance Poli policies that are going paying for all these illnesses that uh Rick so eloquently listed um not that this will go away with the use of tobacco uh I'm not suggesting that um that would happen but um we will see a decrease in some of th in some of those de diseases and health issues if we help the public to continue to educate them but with the idea that it's a as addictive as heroin enabling them to uh try and decrease the use of nicotine thank you thank you Paula appreciate it Joan everyone agrees cigarettes are not good for you smoking causes nearly half a million preventable deaths every year we all bear that burden not only in losing loved ones danger in secondhand smoke and the burden on society which includes our ever increasing health insurance premiums adopting this addendum is a good way to very gradually decrease the amount of smokers people who are over 21 and addicted to nicotine will still be able to purchase their products as before this proposal will only affect those not yet 21 and not able to purchase nicotine products and reading before they can become addicted the gradual decrease in sales will allow vendors to find other products to fill the revenue stream 20 years ago smoking in restaurants was banned in Massachusetts this was controversial at the time now it is well accepted and in fact many people can't imagine trying to eat dinner next to someone smoking the mission statement of the Board of Health is to protect and promote the health of all the citizens of reading and the environment nothing about smoking is healthy this is a good way to both promote and protect the reading residents thank you thank you John okay so um that uh that was very helpful it was good to hear all the different perspectives um of this you know very difficult U decision uh for the board and um I guess the question is uh making a motion uh to adopt or not adopt unless um you know we anyone else wants to make any other motion um Can can certainly do so so when when would this be implemented it's effective January 1 um so I mean we have time we have time you know I'd like to hear everyone's ideas on my suggestion of having a full panel out here to give us um more information my I mean my take and interested in hearing others um you know I I love more data I love data um and more information and um and certainly making a decision you want more information um from what I have read uh and there are multiple countries where this is moving forward um and there are multiple um not only in this state but there are other cities and towns and other states um that have done this I think it's probably early enough uh in the process to um for there not to be an adequate amount of information and data that you can conclusively prove that this is um you know this will clearly uh reduce smoking not only in youth but in in general and um so where I I understand the idea that whenever we make a decision in life you always want to have all the information you could possibly have um I think it is um something that um is probably is not likely available I mean I've never heard an expert um all the arents I've heard around this have been around um the things I mentioned not that uh it's not been proven because it's it's relatively it's a relatively recent phenomena in the last few years there just isn't enough information so I would not be in favor of you know going down a Chase of trying to get more and more information I don't think it's going to um result in us uh really having all the answers would be my sense I I don't know if how any anybody else feels I agree krie Jes I'll just I I think you know like you I sure I I'm I'm I did some pretty exhausted searching trying to to make sure that I was getting all of the different perspectives on this and um I did check industry I looked at you know publication from commentary about the regulation adoption and the bylaw adoption excuse me in procline from industry um and there was no um I like Rick I have not seen anything while there was commentary and suggestion that this was a equal protection violation that this was a violation of individual rights um there was no other argument and I don't see that um I I don't I I have you know made myself I have come to to terms with the questions of those arguments and uh while um we there may or may not there you know they early there may or may not be data on whether this will be effective or not I agree with Paula I think we try and I'm not willing [Music] to wait and say that um the potential to decrease the number of people who are addicted to this substance the potential to decrease the incidences of cancers and other horrible you know experiences for people who started smoking when they were 15 and you know are sick decades later and and miserable and often saying gosh I wish I'd never started um you know to me the the possibility of that does not out of of the it somebody might say it maybe doesn't work um doesn't outweigh the opportunity to improve people's lives now yeah I mean the only thing I would say to that is um there's a good chance that you're going to enact this and this a zero Net game actually it's more probable that that's going to be the case I think it's less probable that there's going to be an actual gain um from this I I just don't think you can legislate uh the human behavior I just don't think you can do it I think they're going to move around that I think they're going to figure out ways to either do it or not do it and and I think through education it's been decreasing um rapidly um over the last 50 years which is great to see uh obviously and I think a lot of the dredge on our system right now is from previous to that right so we're going to see a decrease as well in the effects of this as a goes on whether this is enacted or not um just because fewer and fewer um youth are picking it up not carrying it into their their their adulthood um so that'd be the you know certainly the the first thing that I would say but again I just can't get past that sunblock I don't I don't think this is going to do anything and if it doesn't you know why should we adopt it if it if it's really not going to have a great effect and you know I'd like to hear how that a great effect could or could not be achieved before I made a decision that's all go car may I may I don't want to yeah I mean go ahead sorry go ahead um um you know I guess I go back to what Paul you know Paula's um insightful remark about how this substance is more addictive than heroin and you know thinking about the things that work with for heroine you know it's the restricting of access and it is the you know Zero Tolerance that's the only way because once someone's addicted to Harin the challenge for them to kick that is very difficult and you know I I so I'm I don't I don't think I agree actually Kevin that that there won't be a net gain and and I'm not sure that um I I I guess I'm not sure what you're basing that um that statement on you know what uh if it's you know if it's a a kind of a you know a feeling and your judgment and that's that's fine um but I think thinking about what we've done with other addictive substances um the you know restriction of access is the is the thing that you you go to um and I and I'll just say too while while we're thinking about it I think you know the the idea of citation as a alternative is something that um I don't know it's kind of like the the you know does does it or does it not work for kids who know that alcohol that it's illegal for them to possess alcohol underage you know is that an in is that a disincentive for them in alcohol use and in my experience it is for some but not for many so I think I I I I'm not um I'm not a big fan of that and I think the question of enforcement is a real challenge I think that you know we've heard time and again asking our you know our our Public Safety Partners have indicated you know what are the things I can you we can enforce what are the things we can't do you adopt something that you can enforce and if they don't have the resources to do that um then it's it's not effective and I think um um you know if something's not going to be enforced then why would we do it so um we certainly don't have the staff to do the enforcement on on um on um on you know citing people under you know for for smoking so um I'm I'm good with you know our process and I'm also good with if in a year data comes back because there's been time on this and the data shows that there's been a negative effect um or or you know that there's been zero I I want to see the data and you know this is not a my way or the highway this is uh this is what I understand and have researched and um I think I think we've done a good process and I think that we have um considered all the different factors well so I am comfortable with proceeding with a vote my opinion all right looks like I'm the minority on that opinion all right so I'm gonna I'm gonna make a motion um that uh we adopt uh effective January 1st 2025 um the following amendment to our tobacco regulations and that is the prohibition of sales no person firm Corporation establishment or agency shall sell tobacco or ecigarette products to anyone born on or after January 1st 204 any person firm Corporation established in their agency who or which shall violate any provisions of this regulation and upon written notification shall be fined and suspended in accordance with the schedule set forth under the regulation of the rating board of health restricting the sale of tobacco products so I make a a motion to adopt this amendment do I have a second second all a second roll call Carrie you're muted M sorry yes Kevin no Paula yes Joan yes and Rick yes um and so the motion passes and um and and I totally agree with Carrie that we need to track this over time and see how what the outcomes are um and adapt as needed um but right now it seems like for me at least and for many me many members of the board that it's it's the right move just now that the vote is concluded just as a final um memo more curiosity probably on on my behalf so I think there's a lot of things obviously we all agree on in regards to Tobacco the use of it um nicotine's addictive subst um a substance that is associated with it so this is really me just asking kind of a question if nicotine wasn't an allowable substance would something like this even be necessary and I'm thinking more on on a big scale right so this is nothing you could do in a town or a state this would be more of a nationwide if you want to change a billion dollar industry you have to force their hand so if it was illegal to use nicotine um in the product you know would that change opinions you think would it just be if there was was no addictive substance in tobacco products where things could could easily be quit and easily um use education as a source I know I'm thinking on something that's never going to happen and I realize that um so that's why I'm just kind of thinking out loud and leaving that thought out there um because to me that's really the Crux of all this is the nicotine more than the tobacco you know I think you can educate away from the tobacco um to your points and you started this point breaking good one um that it isn't the choice once once the hook is in right um that that that's the problem is the is the hook more than the product itself so just my own my last kind of food for thought there okay thank you um with that I think we're going to move on to a day and uh the monthly report and hopefully we're going to stop receiving those uh emails yes I know same format you know multiple emails filling up my inbox and my inbox is like it's full you know so hopefully I mean I mean it got voted upon tonight so I can start deleting emails there will be no reason to keep those emails any longer so I'm going to St deleting them all right so um all right so as you as you all know um Jennifer no longer works uh for the town we're having a hard time filling the position we um actually got two good candidates we offered the position to um one of the candidates and she accepted at first and um a few hours later she um you know sent us an email rejecting it because of the salary so um yeah I'm working with HR and the town manager to see if we can um increase the salary a little bit so we can get um qualified candidates I yeah can I ask quick question in regards to that um how many other postings are out there in and around our community like public same type position yeah for inspectors is there a lot a bunch of them bun a bunch of vacancies and a lot of different towns correct and most of them pay more than what we're trying to pay I don't want to discuss numbers over in this meeting but are we anywhere in the ballpark considerably yeah we can say so but I mean if I'm trying to find a job and I see somebody that's paying $3,000 more and they offer me a job I'll take it and and not to further complicate your world in HRS and hopefully I'm not stepping into that um but in theory if one would go back to former employees with new salaries just want to make sure we're keeping that on the table okay and the only other option would be to uh hire somebody with no Public Health experience they will gladly take the job sure my job is going to be difficult because I'm going to have to spend time training the person and once they get trained they get all their certifications guess what happens out the door of course because they're gonna go for more money correct so okay so this all right um but you know I think I wish this had happened before but we didn't really have enough time Carri at town meeting for for this one but H could have probably Juiced up that line item a little bit for you so um okay it is what it is for now a day the um the salary difference is you know between a a very competitive salary versus what we're offering it's about 5 or 10% so it's not it's not a small number correct right a small number no again like we can get somebody for what we're trying to offer but it's going to be someone with no experience in public health entry level entry level which is going to make my life more difficult and I have other things as well to take care of so what um what is Matt able to do outside of town meeting to increase salary it it can't I can't imagine he can do it to the point where it's going to make with to Rick's point that that that number kind of get a lot closer well I don't want to speak on his behalf but I know that in most municipalities uh the town managers have the um you know leverage to increase the steps sure and the grades and things like that so um hopefully we'll see what happens but um you know okay going through the interview process and then offering the position already setting things up thinking that somebody's going to start you know and then we get notifications that they're not starting it kind of it throws us off so um hopefully you know that won't happen again and you know if we can't get the salary up I I just don't think it makes sense to keep interviewing people and then offering them the position and then you know going in Cycles I don't think so so I'm just going to wait for you know whatever to happen to like bump up the salary a little bit and then go from there okay sorry Kevin go ahead the only thing I was thinking is just you know I worry about the the um Street fear coming at the end of the uh end of the summer um going be a lot of vendors for you to have to do is Jennifer like able to help us out on a proon not proon but excuse me Pro's been helping out but obviously her new job is a priority at the moment so anytime she has um time to spare she she stops by but um it's not consistent and I can't you know rely on her at this point so um you know I'm going to start tapping into the um funds to see if we can get like an independent contractor to come in and uh help us out if possible so we can find a full-time employee okay um I just wanna just to to to to underscore what you're talking about about the challenges of hiring someone without the experience you know I mean you have a full-time job your job is and certainly your job is you're supposed to be you know you would be expected to do some trading for a new person but not training some someone from the ground up so I think the the idea of hiring somebody with no experience and training up you know sounds appealing but in in practice what it will do is it will impact the office tremendously because it will eat into the time that you know you you're doing other tasks absolutely so I I I understand that and I I I I you know as much as I'm I like Workforce Development and pip and trying to get new folks in I think that's great but I don't think your our office is in a position to really support that right now um and then I guess I I'll just say to because you know shared services do you have access to any support for from from shared services should you need it in addition to you know hiring somebody for you know independent contractor for Needum spe sorry for reading specifically can you tap into shared services absolutely we've been doing that matter of fact we had the friends and family day and um to my surprise only one person showed up just Paula showed up oh gosh but um the coaching duties come first sorry I I was there because I'm a lion so but you didn't show up at that table no no I was I was busy handing out pizza okay but um our shed services coordinator was present and uh shared services nurse was present as well so uh yeah it was fun we had a great time you know but yes to your you know question we uh we have access to tap into the share Services um resources um good and uh you know anet is going to help us out with you know um Camp inspections umana has been helping us out with Maven and disease investigations and things like that um so yes good good in the me that's just temporary exactly right nothing designed for for permanent support nothing that can sustain permanent support but you do have some you know kind of ad hoc availability okay I'm sorry about friends and family today I have had a family medical emergency since the end of May and I completely forgot so sorry no problem all right so um with that being said the uh public health nurse position as well has been revamped it's now going to be uh a shared position between the health department and the Elder services department so um we were having a hard time filling the position based on the salary and uh I came up with an idea to merge the positions so that we can increase the salary and then we'll have the person work for the public health department and Elder services so uh the select B just approved the new job description uh it's been posted it got posted earlier this week or late last week I'm not sure don't cope me on it but um um we're hoping that um before the end of the month we'll start conducting interviews but last time I checked I'm not I didn't really see any applications but there was some people were interviewed back in February March um I think we can still reach out to them if they haven't gotten any jobs but we'll see what would the FTE be on that position and is it going to be adequate for the two yes so um the way we're looking at it it will be up to 15 hours for The Elder Services Department um they came back and said they wanted more so uh pretty much we took out the um the AL limitation so we just going know share it whoever needs it the most will get it so that's I just don't want something like that to be a deterrent for applicat I I love the idea though I think it's a great idea to you know increase salary you should put the salary on this the first like the range of salaries the first like line item on the uh on the posting yes I believe that's what we did on the new one on the new description um so we um by merging it the senior services was able to you know get some savings to apply to like other things like um um like social work and things like that so they're going to take some of the funding that they're saving and apply to social work and things like that so it's a win-win for the town yeah um so we'll see what happens great idea yeah we can always try and if it doesn't work out we can go back in terms of inspections we conducted 15 comprehensive food inspections we issued six temporary permits Richard ice cream pretty much closed um last month we also um had two Solid Waste complaints and inspections in terms of disease surveillance and this data I got it from the shared services nurse so they help up with something but the only other issue that we have is um we've not been able to execute the IMA because um you know uh the attorneys canot pretty much uh agree so last minute the north andova attorney you know Town Council added a couple of lines to the IMA and uh it pretty much threw everybody off and nobody wants to agree with it so um we're trying to see how we can walk around it and get an agreement going because the staff are starting to lose confidence so for example we hired a public health inspector for the share Services he accepted the position but she you know she pretty much told us hey I have a job and I'm not going to leave my job if you guys don't have an agreement signed because if you don't have an agreement signed and I my job get an agreement in then I don't have a job so pretty much you know people are starting to lose confidence if we don't get this IMA signed um you know I know that a shared coordinator is very concerned about this as well because her job you know her livelihood depends on it the nurse as well is not too happy about it because her livelihood depends on it so we're doing everything possible to get this IMA signed um you know we'll see what happens Barry you did you have a comment yeah I just I I day I'm sorry to hear that and just because I have a little more knowledge about this than is your shared service Arrangement using the technical assistance that the state provides from the attorneys to try and correct that's why how we're trying to get around it good um some people have suggested that we dismantle the um you know pretty much dismantle and then form a different group but the state won't allow us to do that some people have also suggested that we transfer the host municipality to somebody that's willing to do it but the state allow us to do that but just my personal opinion I I feel like the state has invested a lot in this and I feel like you know they can probably find some type of lole for us to um you know move things around um we don't want the same situation as mean and Lawrence or you know we don't want that but you're not really in the same situation as methu and Lawrence correct I mean no disrespect to them but their challenges are are are very different significant really yeah right but okay all right well okay um I'm I'm sorry that's happening I I and I I'm I hope they will um I hope that technical assistance will be able to Prevail or that the state will they will be able to communicate with the state to explain the um precariousness of of this so I hope so too and right now that we're shut staffed we need them so all right in terms of disease surveillance we uh let's see we had so PRI from last B meeting to today we we've had one confirmed case of group a streptococus one confirmed case of hepatitis B one Su suspect case of hepatitis B three confirmed cases of influenza two probable cases of lme disease one suspect case of lme disease five confirmed cases of Corona virus one probable case of Corona virus one suspect case of Corona virus and one confirmed case of tuberculosis yes so um that pretty much um concludes it for [Music] me thank you day um terms of final comments I don't know I think everyone knows that um Paula has decided to step down um from the board of hell um at the end of her term which is this makes it I think her last meeting yes and um Paul I just I wanted to thank you for your your service over the past four years I mean you were appointed to the board in the middle of the pandemic at the beginning of the pandemic in 20120 yeah and um you know you've contributed a lot you know with your insights and suggestions and of course you know the minute the meticulous read of our minutes um which has raised the standard for all of us um I think your nursing perspective was was always very helpful as well as your advoc advocacy for drawing the religious community into the public health work you've mentioned that on several several times you know you've really rarely missed any meetings um you know and I think we've achieved a lot in the last uh four years we got through the pandemic shorted up the health dep Department before it's kind of a little creaky now but we're getting there um and completed this whole uh Health assessment and health Improvement plan um and so you know you've been part of all of that and a real contributor and I just want to thank you for your service you're more than welcome it's been such a pleasure and an honor to work all with all of you you've all brought such expertise to this I I don't I I'm not sure how much the public appreciates how much expertise we have on this board and and the fact that we can respect each other's opinion even though we don't don't always agree um and get work done good work done we've gotten some really important things done um in the last few years and I'm very proud to be a part of it and I thank all of you congratulations on a on a on a four-year run that was that was um it was really we've got a lot done more we know I mean really um there was a a complete restructuring um of the health department you know so I mean there's a lot that you get to look back on and say I was I was part of that and uh and it was good work and you always showed up with a great perspective so I always appreciated that Paul of you thank you best of luck in your second retirement yeah you stole my line I was gonna say that now we get to take care of all the grandbabies oh Paula we're gonna miss you um you and I came on together right so I kind of feel like we we're we're we were you know we were marching marching along together and and not always agreeing but always hearing you know I mean just always working things over and and trying to find out what the best Public Health Solution was and it's been a real pleasure to get to serve with you you're you're smart and you're thoughtful and and you're really a um you know you're nurse the the public health nursing is is so important I just there's so many different things you you bring and we're gonna miss you thank you thank you thank you for being part of us my pleasure right um so I just want to thank you for your service Paulo um you know it's been great working with you and thanks for always editing minutes you'll never forget that will I'll never forget that wherever I go thank you so much um you're going to be missed and uh don't be a stranger we're gonna be expecting you at the next friends and family day absolutely good luck thank you so if there aren't any other thoughts or comments um I'll make a motion to adjourn do I have a second before we do that are we meeting in July I know typically historically Point yes good point um no we we do not have a meeting scheduled in July um and obviously if there's an urgent situation that we need to address we will call a meeting but otherwise our next meeting will be the second Thursday in August okay thanks for reminding me I was going to mention that and I would you know inform the board if we have emergencies or something really urgent that the Board needs to take care of I'll let the vot now great again motion to adjourn any a [Music] second wait a minute G yes Kevin yes Joan yes and Rick yes all right have a great summer everyone goodbye and good luck everybody thank you I'll see you around town absolutely recording stopped e e