e e just running a few minutes late okay I don't know we want wait y do you want to wait I see need to do roll call anyway because I Council on aing to order we do oh we have one online two yeah y we have a anyway where oh you have a ready fora no in recal yes we do yeah all right so Rec Michael Colman here Rini hereo pres okay John here sasel coming here yet Mark DOA here and pres up okay is yes yeah he knows yeah all right Council and agent Marilyn chapley here Jean PR here Dy T here Rose Marie John Parson here Karen pette here Karen Janowski here oh I didn't even see her Dr fatino yes sorry I this is my work one so I'm trying to change my name don't don't don't you worry about it um Can can I just say before we start um so the purpose of this meeting is for um primarily for recount and Council on Aging to see the latest slides which also include cost estimate so this is going to be new information for for our committees so I guess um what we would ask is that um we could have like a five minute if if you want to say I I know we have some guests but if if people want to um if you have some questions that you want to put out on the floor to do that now otherwise I think I believe protocol is that um be be that the committee members are the first to make comments in a meeting such as this then I'm um um um allowing then our our guests can ask so we have pretty busy agenda that's great does anyone else anybody want to make a comment Our Guest I don't know if I want to make one now or after okay I have a question um has this committee interf faced it all with K School building Committee in anyway we have been kept informed about the Kil committee but we haven't directly and initially there was some conversations with the killer with Council on Aging um but um and they certainly are informed of everything that we're doing um but as far as standard meetings correct me if I'm wrong no so is this committee all aware of the fact that they're looking to increase the scope of the Kum students by a third um I knew what they were going to increase I didn't know how by what percent yeah right it's it's about a third right yeah right with all kindergarten in town and prek in town and I just feel like we have silos going on in town all these big building projects and I'm not confident that the silos are talking to each other um and I know Simon's way is one of the proposed areas and I'm really concerned about that students coming from before we get into a discussion um I I I'm gonna just identify sorry can you ident sure Laura Stella I live at 347 Charles oh thank you uh Point well taken and I think both recal and Council on Aging will take that back to our meetings to um see if there's something else we need to do in order not to have these sils as as as you're suggesting but the kilum um next killum meeting I'm actually going to be raising the same thing you know um and I believe this project and that project or within a month apart of well yeah we can have a discussion on it tonight um because we've got um a an agenda that we're getting through but but what we can do is that's a very valid point and I think it it's something that we should explore just a quick comment so very much so and um I think the community deserves to understand all the projects that are being considered yeah right so there you wreck activities the Simon's way this project there's killum um all the different things and I we've not had any formal discussions but informal discussions have been when is the right time to have all those discussions and bring them together I think the thought was as they're coming toward here's what we're thinking that's the best time to do it because the Kum change if I understand it just happened pretty recently in terms of thinking about a broader scope um we want to go through and this is all about site selection what we that site to accomplish our goal which is greatly impacted by a site that's so close to it that's going to EXT expand drastically and I was at the selectman's meeting uh select boards meeting last night and I don't know if you know I need to sign up to speak at the beginning I just think that again we have all these different everybody's G to build a brand new build building and do we realize the impact of each other all these projects together yeah right I I but right now and I don't want to get in the middle of your if it's appropriate for me to sign up to come to the next meeting I will I don't know I just have one question so is your concern congestion and yes no serious legit legitimately yes try to to fully understand your comment I mean I don't even know how it's going to be able to take the children the number of children they're talking about in a res considered but I wanted to understand what you're concerned with because uh you know we're thinking about three sites and congestion is one of our criteria for for thinking about that and I just wanted to understand that it's all we're just at the point getting information that's we need information so we can have input to the town about the senior center slash right so Point well taken and we will add that to the next agenda okay and we can so come back up yeah okay can I SK yes oh yes thanks I appreciate it thank you quick comment on that without getting too far and so just to um I'm sorry that's okay um layer feels a little bit I mean part of the reason we have a select board lays on on this on this meeting we have Carlo on we have Karen on Kellum I mean we look to them to help organize and coordinate town meeting has asked me specifically that we redo the M master plan and get some better organizations so this is not a issue that's falling on deaf ears we are aware and we also know the con the constraints and the impacts that they're going to have across the town and not just that what we're doing so I can't to your point have we had specific conversation with the kilum school building committee no we have the Consultants to but right but but part of part of what we're presenting now about going through site selection is looking at those very issues that you're that you're raising U but in terms of how this feeds in with everything else uh I won't I won't throw mark under the bus too much but uh we do um we do ask for the select board to help guide us and and give us that that direction I heard the committee read out the committee read out the committee read out and the select board meeting and that was it it was more along anybody else um I think we should move on to the person meeting thank you can I make one just one last comment on this topic sorry so and on the Sim is way committee as well there's Liaisons for from each of the groups too so Karen represents the Council on Aging Angela Benda represents the um Recreation committee so so a lot of that information does come back to the boards and committees in a very thoughtful way um I think Karen you come to several of the meetings with the COA you're a very active member and you report back very very well on what's going on on swack and um I think we're all kind of well informed on what what's going on in town generally speaking um as committees and members of the community so but I definitely think it's a point well taken that we could do better so and I also sit on a kill keeping an eye on it's valid point and I'm keeping an eye on on everything and I go to a lot of the meetings um so but it's a valid point we'll hear some more tonight but you know we'll keep an eye on it sure okay thank you thank you CH is going to pull up the PowerPoint um presented by Joel from pH plusa can you just kind of introduce your to everybody yeah I'm Joel bargman I'm a principal at BH plusa and my job there is to do the feasibility studies for many many senior centers and Council I mean SE U community centers and centers for active living sort of calling this one a center for active living sort of a little more generic and compassing and it's pretty exciting for me I can hardly wait for tonight this is the first time I get to present everything that we've looked at from the beginning to as Nancy mentioned the cost estimates and bringing in some of the traffic that we haven't talked about the geotechnical the environmental so there's a lot of new information I was going to do a rather comprehensive presentation of what we have it's maybe a half hour 40 minutes is that okay I think people are more interested in information then the summary so I was go I don't have to do the introduction because you've all seen these four slides but I wanted to have the slideshow be complete for the people that up on the website after the meeting tonight um just reiteration and we are in this feasibility study phase we're nearing the end of the data Gathering and nearing the point where we'll actually start writing the report so tonight's the first opportunity to really get into the guts of what is draft feasibility report we have the three site options at you know Pleasant Street close to the center of town Oakland Road and Simon's way if we can slide that little button there so I'm going to go through the sites one by one to talk about the site issues and then I'll pick up the building issues after that because I've tried it both ways and I think that you really want to compare the buildings next to each other and if I do the building for Pleasant Street up here you you may not remember by the time we get to the end but this is a really interesting picture to help us Orient ourselves on the site the sort of more historic facade of the building and keep this in mind because we have a one idea that is going to be discussed with the historic Commission on this facade we have the on street parking on Pleasant Street have two abutters that are relatively close to the site and then a rather tight one and a half acre site actually have two site plans for this project on Pleasant Street the Cal one includes the gym and we'll show you what happens when we include the gym and then one that doesn't include the gym the the whole goal with this feasibility study is to treat everything as close to equal as you can so that we're really judging a building and how it how the site fits not oh I like this project better because it has a few more square footage so we're trying as best as we can to equalize the schemes across them and it's interesting that when this is a particularly small site that when we do have the gym we're a little bit short on on space but when you don't have the gym you can equalize this with a site a building on the other sites without a gym so so we' brought back two options here that that you hadn't seen earlier and what this red line is showing is that what really works well in a uh Center for active living where a great proportion of your patrons will be seniors is having the pering within 125 fet of the front door of the building and that works well you get all of the parking which is in the garage underneath this wing of the building within great proximity to the front door of the of the building what's interesting is that you can see this building shifts just a little bit when you put the building in with the gym it pushes everything out to this line of the property which is over the setback line so in the building with the gym you have sort of a zoning variance that we'd have to get in theory now the town's exempt from zoning but I know the town is exempt from their own zoning but the town tries to comply with the dimensional requirements and it would be particularly nice to comply with the dimensional requirements next to your neighbors and when you have the gym on there the thing just doesn't quite fit on we need a we're over the setbacks on this side and we're over the setback here and we're over the setback right here so there's a number of non-conformances on that portion of the building and you'll see on the plans later um we can get 52 spaces in this building that would be the third nonconform ments that doesn't meet the zoning requirement which for the size building that's on here would be 60 spaces or short the number of zoning spaces and in reality you want a few more spaces than what the zoning requires so it's an interesting uh option to consider when we do the smaller building we can make some of those non-conformances disappear the other thing you'll see on the site plan is the this room here is a little bit under sized for the multi-purpose room it's about 2100 square feet multi-purpose room wants to be close to 2500 square feet one one way be controversial would be to add a little Bay onto that side of the building which happens to be the most historical side of the building so it makes the multi-purpose room much better whether that would fly we're going to meet with the historic Commission in an informal basis in a couple weeks and discuss that issue because we're also adding on to this building on the backside and they may have some opinions about that as well so we before we get everybody hooked on what you can do we do want to get this in front of the boards that have jurisdiction over this building but that is an opportunity um for this particular building the other thing to understand on this site that sort of works to your advantage is that Pleasant Street is six feet higher than the parking lot and then the parking lot slopes down what that allows you to do on this site is to have a lower level of parking and then a second level of parking that's at the floor level of this building so there's two garage levels which um you'll see that in the cost syst but there two levels of garage that handle the parking on the site and then you're literally building above the garage and building on the first floor and the second floor of that building and I didn't show you is we're also building off the back of that so I don't think building on this side of the buildings of any controversy it's already been done the back we'll have to see um the front maybe more so but parking here gets you 52 parking spaces on on in the garage and there are the onsite street parking spaces what mon butter is here the other AB butter is there and those are you know they're windows and bedrooms that are Clos and so that's what we were concerned about with the first option that I showed that really goes over the setback line on that side and then the setback line sort of dwarfing this s historic building so this particular site is great got utilities it's got water it's no flood Plaines no Wetlands nothing to worry about other than storm water because once we put the garage in put an addition here have a ramp into the garage there's very little land left for letting the rainwater soak into the groundwater system so we'll have to F that will have to be done underneath the garage in ssts which is more complicated and expensive to deal with so the the from a site utility perspective excellent site except storm water is going to be more complicated the traffic um well this is a sort of we had the zoning District here because the zoning District gives you the parking account but it's it's also points out one other issue all the sites need a special permit to handle this use on Pleasant Street um a community center and a a center for active living is basically according to the zoning the community center is permitted with a special permit from the community Planning and Development it's already there so that's a formality that that's not really a hindrance it's something to think about on the other side sites um we're able to get 20,000 square feet in that new scheme on that site so that's a more compact more usable space than you saw at the public meeting a couple weeks ago tightened up that scheme and it works better and I'll show you what the deficiencies are this just mentions that the real way to do parking is based on this it which is international traffic uh standards and that would be ideally to have 72 parking spaces on the site as opposed to the um 67 that are required by the zoning five more now when you have a Valentine's Day party or Thanksgiving lunch something you're you're usually going to exceed that 72 count but it's a little bit like the church on Easter or you know the synagogue on high holidays you deal with your high holiday in a in some other way that you have to manage on your site that's part of a traffic management plan you don't want to build your site so that if you need 130 spaces on a a special occasion that you have 50 spaces on that site sitting phow because one of the worst things we can do for the environment is to pave over our land and it doesn't drain and it creates heat Islands in our communities um these are just some details that I don't need to go through but I they're summing the there is some parking across the street as well too on street parking yes no in a lot don't we have a lot yeah many where the police are parking this is It's a reading Housing Authority location that currently allows for parking four or five spots maybe was 11 think they're 11 in the lot but I don't think they're all I think they're I think there's five right now we have permission for five during our business and then there were two handicap so now the faces out in front could be used by anybody they're not dated to you they can be used anyone handing but not what this is showing is is that you know the the one each each site has a zoning chart and compliance um showing where the deficiencies are and what we'll have to think about to overcome the deficiencies when I say yes no it sort of depends on which one of those two options we show that with a gym we have a setback problem without a gym we can mitigate that problem so question yes sir on the Pleasant Street site now they do get water during know heavy downpours yeah have you accounted for how it handle that well with the new storm water management you really have to collect all the water diverted in E and have a managed system ideally all of that is contained on site and that would be contained in systs and a system below the grage now we haven't gotten to that level of engineering if Pleasant Street was chosen we'd have to study that more in the next phase the conceptual design see that but we know there's a problem um on that side with the groundwater and the SST and the in the garden are area on the on the corner that Triangle Park so the second site is Oakland Road and it's opposite the high school the high school has a driveway entering here and then the site sort of extends this full corner up to this neighbor's here a little bit hard to see but there is another neighbor in the middle of the site right here that we're site has to cut around and you'll see it on the drawing this is a nice slide because what you really want to do is line up your driveways on the site it it reduces the friction of traffic so that's sort of a fundamental thing that the civil engineers like to do and when you do that it puts the entry to this Center for active living as a in a good location on this road that if you come out of here and you look this way or you look that way you can see 250 fet in each Direction which is what we like to get for this kind of a project so this is a nice site from a traffic perspective a little bit better than Pleasant Street where when you come out of that garage um you know you're not that far from the corner of the site so this is a site plan that shows how a new building can fit on this site and you're going to see tonight a little different we have the same building on this and Simon's way because they both fit and that way you don't have to think I like one site better because the building um the same building will happen to fit on both SES as I mentioned you have a driveway coming in this is rather complicated to do very steeply terrain here very Steep Hill so this is on a platform and in reality those are off the close to a couple of other houses so we're showing them but we showed them there to say that perhaps you really wouldn't want to have pickle ball on this particular site so the way we've done the cost estimates pickle ball doesn't fit on Pleasant Street this pickle ball is an add-on the basic estimates for every option is the center for active living the parking and doesn't include the pickle ball you come in nicely and this a really another great parking lot your 125 foot radius encompasses mostly we like to get half of the spaces in that here we're getting you know 2/3 a little bit more um one thing to consider is this neighbor right now you can't see that neighbor that drone shot that I was taken a week ago and even in the the dead of the end of the winter when there's no leaves on the trees you can't see that house all of a sudden when we're done putting this parking in that house is going to be open to all of this because there's grading and excavation happening on that side of the site so one of the things to think about is the impact of the building on that neighbor and on this neighbor so we're coming in here here there's that neighbor's house here's the parking area and there's the building area when you go to the site it's sort of flat here in that zone I love this because that's the same winter just amazing how different it is in the summertime to think about it and how much more dense it is so that's the exact same location when some so you can see that the site's a little bit flat there oddly enough when they built the high school it appears that the excess fill from the high school was put in the site here and you can see this just shows that wonderful site view distance you come out of that parking lot you don't have to worry about who's coming and and going where these lines are means that's a slope and that those lines are going up and these lines are going up so you can see there are fewer lines in the middle that's where it's flat that's where this site was filled it's nice because it gives us a flat area to put a building it's not nice because you can't put a building on fill you have to let the foundations and the slab get down to the native virgin soil because when they put that fill on the site they didn't do it in a controlled Manner and the fill from the high school would be the same as the top soil here which is 12 Ines of organic material that's centuries of trees shedding their leaves and the leaves becoming soil it's not great for building so you know we have a a nice flat area but it is a hardship to put a building on that it'll be a little bit more from a foundation perspective and I know I'm probably in your territory as a structural engineer the red lines then indicate at some point they were thinking of putting a school here and someone uh this firm par did a geotechnical analysis of where the Bedrock was this is showing where the Bedrock is underneath the ground and as you come over to this side of the site the Bedrock is getting to be 120 which is the same or a little bit less than the flat portion of the site in the middle why is this important here's that flat area of the site ideally you you want to sort of put your parking lot and your building as close to that and keep it as close to that as possible it's hard to see but there's paper streets and there's an extension to Cold Spring Road that comes down here and connects Oakland with Cold Spring up there this is a little bit easier to see there are these paper roads when the developers first developed this site as a residential development town meeting in 2016 got rid of these paper roads but I'm not sure why this portion remains so can that be purchased can that be cleaned up maybe but for purposes of the Fe study today the town doesn't own that piece of land so what we had to do is move the site over from where we had it couple weeks ago to clear that that road and well you may be able to buy that road you know that property owner may not want you to buy that road because it gives him a little or her a little bit better buffer when I move this building over I'm getting into the ledge it's odd that having to move 30 feet for that road easement has a pretty big impact on the foundation but now there's a good portion of the building here that's has to deal with ledge and leveling it leveling that out and that's relatively close to some residential property so that's something that we need to study how would you ever do that and and not disturb those homeowners and residents should that road not be purchasable what sorry so here's just from the G technical report this is done by um par Eng in when the school hired them to look at this site for a school and so this is where we found out that reported this area was filled during construction of the school and it goes through and talks about the Bedrock issues the final report we go in this in some detail I just trying to summarize it for tonight and then this these are actual soil borns that were done at the site so I I would like to have this in because it makes citizens that come to these meetings go they they have some information they're just not making this up what's nice is that on some portions of the site you got top soil and then right after the top soil you have native fill and that's easy native soil some portions of the site you have top soil and then all of a sudden you have fill that goes down that you have to remove or otherwise deal with there's water in in Street if there's not water that's complicated so it's great there's water there's no sewer in that street we've put in the budget 650 lineal feet of new sewer line and the school's on a different they're on a pump station so we need to learn a little bit more about that but we know that we have to bring sewer in for this particular building storm water would be relatively manageable because that's a big site no flood planes no Wetlands so pretty good plenty of parking on this site now we can't vouch for the school but certainly it would be worth talking to the school committee when there was a special event could there be a managed traffic management plan of we can get 95 parking spaces on the site if we needed 10 across the street on a special occasion would that be feasible we don't know that's something to investigate but might be worth looking into in the next phase I I mention these this talks about the uh you do want to coordinate your activities with arrival and departure of the high school I think the high school starts early enough that senior centor I mean Council on centers for active living open more around 9 and get busy around 8 8:30 to 9 I think that the morning is not so much of an issue we'll have to learn more about the afternoon archers and again um oddly enough on that particular site a community center which would be a center for active living is not allowed as right there a cultural center is allowed with a variance from a uh zoning board of appeals a special permit from Zoning Board of Appeals and a different type of nonprofit Cultural Center is allowed with a waiver and a special permit from the Community Development so there's probably ways to work your way out of the fact in in fact you don't really have to because the town's exempt from their zoning but we're taking this approach saying most communities really don't want to take that heavy hand they want to follow things through in a way that makes most sense because these laws are put in to protect the neighbors the last site is Simon's way and um right now you come up here and go to the ice arena and then the road stops this is a rather narrow road that takes you down to the rifle range the particular site is here the site goes back 16 ACR it goes way back the proposal is that the town had envisioned putting a property line and separating out the front five plus minus Acres from the back which is primarily wetlands and that's shown on this drawing that there would be a property line here that's roughly going here on this drawing and then that property line sort of follows the shape of the Wetland flags that what this site is unique about is that this back portion of the site is pretty uh wet and the Wetland flags are delineated along this back Edge the access to the rifle range is a easement so the town owned easan you can see that this particular parcel doesn't have any Frontage on the street which is problem but what we would propose is extending Simon's way here to some point and that would give you a frontage on Simon's way the town could make that a public way and that's basically what happened to that side of the road was built um I I think actually or deed before the hockey rank or the ice arena so here's Range Road or Simon's way however you want to call it um that easement would bring you down from that intersection into the parking lot you drop off this is all nice and level beautiful site we can get 80 spaces easily in here we could push back a little bit more and get 95 that there's no problem with parking here you may have seen a different site plan earlier where we had the parking all up here and put the building back here but it made more sense than second blush after the it's great to go to these public meetings because you sit in a public meeting two weeks ago with that Saturday and you go who it'd be really nice to have parking for the pickle ball and go here and have the pickle ball not be on top of the school I mean the Cal and before you couldn't really get to the pickle ball because the pickle ball was behind the building and so this cleans this up a lot nicer the public safety would be able to come in get out and then go back they don't have any trouble with fire trucks emergency access that first slide we showed shows the travel distance this is about uh 1.25 miles from the fire station so they you know the none of them are really problematic from a um response time uh for emergency vehicles please or EMTs the pickle ball is also nice because it's on the backs side of the Ice Arena so it's not bothering anybody there and there's no Residential Properties here the mention that the shooting range is up there keep that in mind here this is how you get to it haal Street comes down here and we would have to bring utilities down that street the club the oops sorry the clubs already done that they this line is a water line it's going back to their if it's big we don't know if it's big enough to handle water for the recal we're assuming that it's not in our cost system so we have the worst case covered that's same picture in the in the winter in the summer just to and then you know this is the idea is to bring the entry in to this far enough away from this intersection that as a senior or a student driver you can come out turn and have enough time to collect yourself see if some is coming that way whereas in the old old drawing you saw a couple weeks ago we were coming right in here and you come out here and you're not sure if you can see someone so there's a big advantage to extending this road down um for this site and then this is just showing the extension that they're going in th you can see the site is relatively flat when it has is no utilities storm water would be easier to handle except when you have a high water table storm water gets a little bit more complicated this site does have a few environmental flags that were raised by Weston and Samson I want to really cover that because I heard the other day toxic waste was on the site which I want to laay the concern that's not the concern what Weston and Samson is reporting as as part of the due diligence to purchase a site they looked at this site and they did these PID is an ionization test to see if there's any organic compounds like gasoline and the water and um what they found is the from a geotechnical perspective the s's not problematic they found that from a wetland perspective there are wetlands but there's enough land that's not in the Wetland area that it's not problematic I'm G to just jump to where I was going what they did find in a rather complicated report is that they recommend that any due diligence be done going to the next phase of a particular project do two things look at the site for any lead that may be on the site from the rifle range I think it's not likely that they turned around and shot this way but I think Weston and Samson's job is to be cautious and mourn you of the issues so they're saying do a surficial test on lead and then they would like you to do a little bit more testing of the groundwater the tests that came back there were seven Wells drilled and three of them had some readings of compounds in the groundwater the reading was 14 parts per million a low reading and an ionization test is 10,000 parts per million so 14 Parts I'm not an environmental scientist but West and Samson didn't raise a red flag and they don't buy the site they just said you go to the next phase do your due diligence because even if there are those parts per million well in fouth we have a gasification system underneath their basement floor slab so make sure that that kind of problem gets vended to the outside so there's many ways to deal with that and this information is public information and it's out there it's going to be in our report and I want everybody to realize well this site has that issue that the other sites don't but it's not like it's a toxic now some people think that there are couple cars on the site and there are a couple of concrete culs these coverts happen to be designed to go underground and deal with sewer and water so that's not really the problem the cars aren't great but there's no sign in any of the tests that were done that odor or discoloration of the soil soil test and it's not known as a waste site for a in this Commonwealth okay again I have to read the report and that's this in the old days when I was a kid I was a Nik missile set from 1955 to 63 and here is your site so some people thought this was the Nike missile site and their Nike miss it wasn't on your site there was an AIS Road on your site and there was an access road up there to that site but the missile site was up there in the area that's already developed for the ice rink and the field so you have to assume that they did their due diligence and they built their building to to understand that unfortunately what the West Samson letter says is that some sites in Massachusetts that had Nike missiles have reported chemical waste on the site that doesn't mean this site has it they're just saying some of them that's like saying a little bit like sometimes when you go out on the highway there's an accident you know I mean it again it raises a flag that we have to cover as a team as a town in the next phase and not gloss over but I don't think that it raises itself to the issue that um we have to be worried about um toxic waste on this particular site again that has the community center not allowed but the same way to get around it um and then it doesn't have the frontage but we think that you can create Frontage on that side okay so sorry it took so long I'll try to go quicker here on the floor plans and what I'm wanting to do on the floor plans is is Pleasant Street is going to be a different site because we're using the existing building which is a 2100 foot footprint that's sort of the basis of it and it's right there and it's not going anywhere so you're building onto that and that but I think there are a lot of ways to solve the problem but I think this is a nice way to solve it what Rachel had started doing is you you put the multi-purpose room in the kitchen and if we do an extension in that red area on this floor what that what that means is that people parking in the garage can come right in on the lower level they can come in take the elevator up in that big multi-purpose room that would be much bigger than the selectman's room in here that might be open at night for meetings like this or other meetings is on the ground floor you can get to it and all of the center for active living activities are on the second floor so you just bathrooms are here parking is here you don't have to go upstairs if you want to share that room at night which is a great room to share it's really a nice plan for doing that then on your second floor you in a scheme that has a gym you would have the gym we'd have offices bath rooms we have classrooms arts and crafts maybe one or two story addition on here we we think if the historic commission was interested in allowing an Edition we think they probably would want to say a one story Edition there but this gets us the gym in the building and I'll show you the programs that aren't in there um on coming up but it's a 20,000 squ foot footprint so there's more space in here than than we had and we don't have every little detail so I I'd like councel on agent not to sort of go through this with the microscope we'll take it to the next level but right now we have six different plans we're working on and you can't get everything worked out but I think what's interesting is in the last two weeks we've gotten more space and it's a more rational layout ground floor there's nothing in the basement except overflow floor bathrooms for when there's a huge performance in this thing we don't want people having to work down in that basement level it's just not that nice so your lower level has a nice storage room great for centers for active living overflow BL bathrooms and the parking garage here you can see they get to the lower parking garage you come off of um Parker and that's a sort of tough little turn and the other thing I want to point out is that this level of the garage doesn't connect to this level of the garage so if you're coming in and you get down here that space has to remain open everybody's filled you got to back up go out drive around the street do the same exercise on the lower level to see if there any space I'm getting at the garage isn't as good as a parking lot because you can't see the whole thing and you you can't see where you might want to go so the the it's a clever way to solve the parking problem on the site it's not necessarily the best solution what I said was we've really gotten more space in the building but we're short one large program room one Fitness Studio the senior lounge and the program coordinator and this particular one does not have the track above the gym the gym is so close to the neighbors and it's already on the second floor of the building the gym has a 24 22 foot ceiling height you put a track in there it's really going to dwarf the neighbor so we felt just not realistic to to propose that the the track sits in the volume of the gym we don't really count that as square footage in our plans so that's why the area is not there there's really 2,900 square feet of program space efficiency in this when you compare it to the program and I never like to say trust me but I pretty sure that that's going to work out that way when we get to the next phase if we get there on this phase like I said we don't have every room in here drawn out but we spent a lot of time on this so Joel so those shortfalls are against the assumption that you have that bump out no again they don't have that they don't have that assumption the bump out is and it would solve some of the shortfall okay 810 square feet of the shortfall now what's really sort of interesting if if the town decides that they don't need a gym which I'm all in favor of the gym full disclosure we could as I mentioned make the building a little smaller solve the setback problems where the gym was now we can get your full program this has the center for active Living Program except for the gym and you could build on on any of the other two sites the full Center for active living without a gym as well so now programmatically they're equal and I happen to like it but you you know you could put the senior Lounge here and change the arrangement I like the multi-purpose room because I do think that this multi-purpose room is going to have a real value it's got a nice high ceiling it could be used by theater groups it could be used by sports groups we have in Andover they have wrestling in their multi-purpose room you know it there's people are really uh anxious to use nice multi-purpose spaces and that could be a really great space but having it segregated from the Upper Floor I think is really nice and the same parking system [Music] there are a lot of options we had to pick one yes ma'am just one more question and I know you've got six models I just I haven't heard to say the words yet dining is an important dining is feature kitchen right but this multi-purpose room it would be there for dining yeah so like it might even be lunch every day could be might or might not okay thank you because that's one of the big things I wanted to talk about on the other scheme as a difference so this is the option that is the new building at one of the other two sites so I know your heads are going to explode that's giving you a lot of information tonight but it's a little bit different from what Rachel showed two weeks ago because we learned some things at that meeting the park lot in both schemes there the drop off is here you come into the building here and there's a Lobby and if the gym is there it would be here and we're saying put the multi-purpose room over here Rachel had the multi-purpose room up there in the last SCH that meant that if you wanted to use the multi-purpose room for this meeting tonight you would sort of walk into that area and there was sort of confusion about am I in the center for active living or am I in you know multi-use Spaces by putting it on this side you have the multi-purpose room the gym and bathrooms can be used and you can close off this this is a model we've done in in a number of buildings because you even if this is a community center you don't want youth basketball wandering through your whole building at night so this puts a nice barrier at this point you can come in use the multi-purpose room you can is the gym and in this particular scheme the kitchen is here and you'd say well why do you put the kitchen opposite the lobby well because a lot of our current senior centers have little openings where they sell muffins and coffee so if I put the kitchen here it can serve out to the lobby and if there's a basketball game on those weekends they can use the kitchen and now all of a sudden you have a real Active Space here that has a lot of flexibility of course the kitchen could go down here where it does make some sense from a service point of view and then the lobby would enter directly into the multi-purpose room we can talk about that for a month and slide later but what's really a key issue on the on this is that come in your right it's public and you don't have to worry about anybody going into into your offices and whoever's using the game room whether that's Recreation that can be cordin off at night all the activities are on that side it happens to be two stories there's separate bathrooms on this side there big bathroom for the gym and that here but again you don't have everybody using the restrooms at night and and those kinds of things and of course the program can shift you know arts and crafts maybe on the second floor this is just showing that everything fits in and it fits in in 23,600 sare ft with all the circulation and everything else has a track above the gym and the other thing is really nice Pleasant Street by itself has a nice high ceiling in the multi-purpose room because of the fire station a lot of our senior centers if you go to them they twostory senior centers don't always have that nice high ceiling above the multi-purpose room but by moving the multi-purpose room to this side of the building there's nothing above it so we can have a 10 12T ceiling height in here makes a much nicer multi-purpose room and it doesn't affect the rest of the building it's so the whole idea of Shifting this had cost and practicality issues we've matched up the program and showed Pleasant Street without the gym Pleasant Street with the gym and I took out the column that just showed the basic program because these are the basic programs the Pleasant Street with the gym and I mean Oakland and Simon's way with the Dem are your full program and I can send that full program out it just got to be hard to read on the screen okay so we took the pickle ball out of the scheme and did a cost estimate and we pumped up the square footage and as a typo that should be 236 instead of 20 I'm sorry about that but it's really odd how close the numbers are to each other um we didn't expect it I don't think anybody expected but again this is doesn't have the track it doesn't have that other program space when you take the gym out of the scheme they get to be a little bit more fair in comparison because now they're all 18,100 square F feet and you can see here you're paying for the parking in that scheme versus this scheme now someone asked level as the cost of the parking if you just pull the parking out with the foundations it's 6284 that's not the difference between these two schemes because you still need the foundations if you get rid of the parking and there's a lot of factors that go into it so the cost of the garage is really that but you that doesn't necessarily get it's it's tough to explain why it doesn't get reflected and it's not $6 million difference one other reason it's not $6 million difference is that this has a full parking lot and site work and at Simon's way we have centuries of trees on that site and there happens to be two to four feet of forest mat on that site and that for M has to be taken out and F put in underneath the building in the parking lot that goes into this number so the reason that you don't see the Six Million difference in those prices is that the site work costs are in this and make that litigation question yes ma'am I just didn't catch you said there was a type of which one was the wrong number and the square footage on the new building is 23,00 600 and okay the pickle ball $400,000 for the pickle ball you decide to put it um so the cost of the gym that was a question that was asked with the track um again here the gym there is that cost it's a little bit less expensive in a new building when you're not building it on a garage you know if you build a gym on a garage you have to heat the floor underneath the gym because the garage is going to freeze in the winter time so that's why that's a little bit very close to this number even though this has a track and it doesn't have so we gave you these breakouts I didn't give you this breakout for everybody to think oh we don't have to do the garage at Pleasant Street the idea was think Mark I suggested there may be other ways to fund a garage through grants or other vehicles to pay for that kind of infrastructure one more question yeah a Pleasant Street is indoor pickle ball possible with the gy yes ma'am three courts okay so it's not entirely not feasible well any one of them would have pickable I me the outside outdo one all right thank you I have a question too just to understand this slide um so you said some of them are breakout and some of them are alternate the cost of the gym is that that that cost already included that's included but the other ones are additional the this would be an additional cost cost to add pickle ball quarts outside thank you I'll clarify that is that this is included in the cost the this is the additional space that's that additional space in red that you asked about is that included so adding that space would so we have a lot of data and all the data gets compiled and not that anybody wants to read it but for people going to town meeting the point is is that as a group we've been diligent about investigating these sites and asking all the questions and recording each site in the same way it wasn't a biased approach and this shows you that you've treated each site in the same manner what this is a little bit more subjective I took what are some of the key factors that we're looking at clean site environmental indoor track and said do they have it or do they not have it so you can see the the check marks a yes and check marks happen to favor the newer sites just because different sites the real work is this and I think G to commend everybody for spending a lot of time on this um what we try and do is have 12 points that whichever groups are going to go through and evaluate the sites evaluate the sites against the same criteria and that criteria is criteria that we all agree about and within each option say operational costs there are three categories a high category a middle category and a low category so you can within each category of evaluation pick a range of scores and the idea of this is that this levels out the evaluation so it's not like just like Pleasant Street because that's where we've been all the time and that's not one of the criteria Nancy we will work on 12 I haven't done that because I think it's not my job to decide that it's the group's decision to decide how to change the word on that I do know that subjective analysis comes into it so up till now the title that I gave this with comparative analytics now we're going to subjective analytics at the last point in the evaluation we're saying you can get 10 points or 20 points however many we want with what you might think about the particular sites because I think it's important I to have an emotional reaction and an emotional response and a measured response to what you think is good and what may not fit in to these categories and that gives you a way to express your thoughts about the sites um I've seen this in designer selections and I think it's quite effective and it's sort of a separate number and then you this chart automatically adds up all the points if if you guys don't want to fill out the form you can do it by hand and we'll fill it out these happen to tally into your page and all can be like a town vote you don't it's secure and so timeline for halfway through the village study we got our data we want to write it up and go through the evaluation process and hopefully bring that to the select board and then get on to the conceptual schematic design phase finish out the year so we're I think we're making great progress It's was a group two groups that took so long but thank you question back I had a question my antenna went up and I had been alerted about it from NY beforehand when you talked about at the Pleasant Street that you have to back up because it's a one way I'm thinking well if it's because it's there's no more spaces that means there'll probably several people behind you following you how does isn't there any other way of doing that and we need to work with our traffic engineer is there a way to control that from before you enter the garage where there's a signal system that says space 12 is available it's a way to do that and then you you would know before you go into the garage that there is or is not a space available that's a little some garages up and in do have that but I expensive and it doesn't always work but but is there any other way than the other exit out of it if you get to the very last space turntable no I meanman thing when have you ever been in a place where there's no way no way it's not it's I think that's the flaw parking is the difficulty at Pleasant Street whether it's enough parking whether it's getting into it and out of it or once you get into it navigating that's not great parking garages are a little bit more difficult for people to drive in and parking lots other have a question about the cost so you have some totals there there's always cost overruns there always on what what percentage above have you anticipated will be above this and also what other factors um for example the the cleaning of the contamination some way unanticipated what other unanticipated costs you think that there will be the cost estimate itself has 10% contingency in it okay and then we do I can send it to you I I had it in there and it's a lot of information and everybody thought it's too detailed there's a total project cost that says I got to build the building but then in addition to building the building and I have to hire the architect I have to hire the engineers I have to do the moving if I'm using Pleasant Street as a renovation I have to move those out maybe rent the space for the interum what is any cost that you have to incur on the project that's not a construction cost and we put that into the total project cost that total project cost includes a 10% contingency above and beyond what's in the cost estimate because we're so early on in the design the town may decide to do something add in program they may be something that we don't know more on the Hazardous Materials than we've planned in our budget so you basically have 20% contingency built in at this very early phase in that $22 million figure that's correct 20% and each one each phase of the project that contingency gets reduced down because as you get more information you don't need to carry those contingencies at the end of the day you you still want contingency but they will get reduced 20% sounds like a lot but we're so early that we have to cover and the non-construction costs what what what what is considered with that well it's about non-construction cost can be anywhere between 20 to 30% of the construction cost by law that town has to hire project manager to manage and a clerk of the work to manage the job to make sure that it's all done according to hoil they have to hire an architect so those two fees are your two biggest costs there's legal expenses there's peer revieww when we go to planning board there's moving expenses no matter where you go you're going to have some moving expenses there's uh I I don't have it in front of me but there's probably 30 different cost items FF is in there as well for audio visual audio visual is 250,000 on a building like this yeah and again that is already included in that total number I showed you the total project cost numbers I didn't show you the construction cost that's to when you go to town meeting and you ask for the project to be funded that's the amount you a couple of things on Oakland Road um has it been ever considered where it's so close with that road coming from the high school and going into the center to put a traffic light on both sides to versus Heaven just coming through one and exit and the students coming out are those seniors coming out what about a traffic light at boat yeah driveways is that an additional cost underground services and also the is is there one site that is better for emergency services versus the other and does this division have to be approved by early responders yeah so the answer to your first question is the Traffic Engineers didn't think that that intersection of the high school in Oakland warranted a traffic signal but we could certainly bring that up as another topic has a SA plus it has a crosswalk right on a response time I mean we do want to get to the place on fire but Pleasant Street's obviously your closest and then up here you're 75 miles and I think oh and that's 1.25 miles but I'm talking about response equipment getting in is there I think well equipment getting at Pleasant Street you'd get to the edge of the building right the other ones you can get to the edge of the building at the parking lots okay and the access is good okay and what about um on Oakland removal of the trees Etc what about water flow and catch basins that is that an additional expense for that's included in that okay but it is a good it is a good point you know full disclosure Pleasant Street's already been cleared you would be clearing a site that hasn't been cleared and in theory those trees are absorbing carbon so you get some benefit out of those trees that are on that site thank I just don't understand completely the site ranking worksheet so if I filling this out and I gave 90 points to Pleasant Street across the 12 topics and 144 to Oakland and 108 Simmons where's the 1020 and the 15 coming from there's a second page that takes you to your subjective analysis and it totals up the the score this no this gives me do you mean the waiting is that what you're talking about there's a subject unless unless we didn't print it by mistake one this one yes yes number point 67 right where do those rev points come from you you put them in but I put in the 94 and and that that automatically goes in this column right this is your subjective well I like Pleasant Street because I've gone there for 30 years and I want to keep going there independent of the 12 questions that's correct my gut this is what I okay now I got it yeah thank you both of them are my opinion it's just a different cat I got it thank you thanks yeah great question so Joel you're suggesting that that would have to be some sort of you know approach that we have to take consistently okay you get 50 points that you can uh you can allocate based on some subjective criteria that you want to assess on each of the sites or something to that effect we said 20 points oh you gave a total of 45 right the highest you can give any particular site each individually okay I see you can do rank each one so you'd have to have a process you'd have to Define exactly what that I think that was your point right okay good good learning experience and you would add your own notes just just explaining okay I didn't want to have those notes but everybody thought it was clear because I thought it was going to Prejudice how people so if I lik one because it took down all the oak trees and I'm allergic to them crazy as it would be I could put that in okay you would know it's because of my o allergy okay I got it I found this incredibly helpful and I'm very surprised that Pleasant Street Center is the most expensive alternative so it's really helpful to see that it's not unusual for our renovations to be more expensive than their construction small site too right right and and to make that building work you sort of have to take the inside it down and then to put the parking garage in we're beginning to undermine the foundations that's complicated but could the design the addition is facing the building the addition would be on the left correct could the design be on the pcket street side going to the right and making that entrance in and out to a parking lot tring the wrong way try that again I was wondering on the pocket Street side if that's where the addition could go there is an addition no right there and extended straight down yeah we we are EX ending down already could you go further down you could go further and then make more parking from the Pleasant Street or do you have to have the garage is what I'm saying you have to have the okay but you can't drop that down because you'd be in the road thead you could you could drop a triangle down but again you need this here's where the ramp is that ramp that ramp's not going to be that much fun [Music] it'll be used mostly by the skateboard [Laughter] group you showed today are with that extension includes this extension yeah but not that one and I that one we gave is an additional number this one I think is doable the second floor of that I think is questionable but I think the way if you look at the building there's a sort of hip roof on it that you could really sort of you can make it look really good whether they don't you like it or not it's another question all right in the in the gym in this configuration has a 22 foot ceiling 21 221 something that would make that part of the building pretty tall it is we put a flat roof on it and suggest that the advantage of doing a flat roof is that would be a wonderful solar collector South is another question so um do you have any ideas like if we do go with Simon's way or Oakland Road do you have any ideas of what we would do with the current pleasantry Street Center um options yeah so I think the town gets to to think about what possible options there could be there already people that already expressed interest to use it as is I without making any changes to it couple of folks that have already indicated some interest there's another group that sent in an unsolicited idea for turning into something different so there have already been people who Town hasn't done anything but people have been saying how about this how about this how about this town groups couple of town related yeah yeah Arts music that would be a great cultural Cultural Center IDE absolutely but that's okay we deserve it in this have you also looked at solar panels at the other two sites we can put them on the other two s yes ma'am how if Pleasant Street site was to be used with those Sol solar panels and the ex area of the building conformed to the historical part of the building that's my concern that's why we're um Jenna was really great about getting H I think it was you wasn't got us on the histor commission yeah the next meeting yeah so we're gonna check that out and we should also be talking to rmld about different ideas also who knows be possible that if it were Oakland or Simon way could you do did Stone Zoo the outdo parking could have the solar panels yeah it could yeah and that could pay for a lot of the energy cost with the you could really approach Net Zero pretty easily on those two sites Aon on Zoom has a question see I just have a question about Simon's way and the gym is it possible um I can't exactly remember what it looked like um could that the gym be added in a phased product like could we do the building first and then do the gym later is that a possibility yes there'd be a missing tooth on the back of the building but you could add the gym on in the future I don't you can't see my finger uh maybe you can put the cursor and show her where that that gy would just be left out can you see my cursor move I can yes thank you would that include the bathrooms out too you take them out that's a question you could leave them for the multi-purpose room so you really move Miss you'd have this piece come out yeah that everybody would say why do you want a cord or if when you have the kids if they do the gym at night the coaches love this because the parents have to be in the corridor they can watch and see what's happening and see when the kids coming but you're not distracting what's going on in the gym so this this area out here we call a viewing quarter it's really popular and works really great so this Windows into the gym yeah yeah everyone wants to watch pickle I know and that's that's pickle ball one two three get cross courts two and in one regulations does this include sound proofing yes building will not be distur people are playing pick well one of the other reasons we put this Gap here is that there no wall shared between the program space and the gym so the Gym's an isolated feature sound y so you won't hear the ping ping you shouldn't but that also means you have essentially two sometimes three walls between the gym and the programmer because if you're on the upper side of the gym there you have storage looks like restroom so you have three wall barrier and then on the left side there it looks like at least a two wall or and there's no program above the gym which is nice too you don't have to worry about noise above um I know I know one of the thoughts is that the gem could be not only used as a gym but also it could hold a large dining event or a theater event or whatever it might be how does that work with the gym Flor you know usually I don't know in a gym you have these restrictions you can't XYZ because or am I making that up the the second longest thing we'll talk about when you get to the design of the product is what's the gym floor is it wood is it synthetic if it's wood pickle ball people prefer synthetic because it has a little more give than a wood floor basketball want wood if it's wood we you put a cover on the gym floor when there's a dining event so you have to have a place to store it but they roll out and it's not easy to roll it out but they put a cover on the floor synthetics lifespan is is longer no Wood's longer oh wood is longer do you know what the lifespan of each is we get 10 to 20 years out of the synthetic Florest and the wood you you know you get a 100 years out of the wood but you do have to refinish them but it's not all that hard to refinish it with JY floor if you manage but with the synthetic we could have like Gatorade or food or we wouldn't have to cover the floor if synthetic you wouldn't have to for a meal you could you don't have to that's the advantage of synthetic you don't have to in the high school is synthetic you don't have to worry about scratching y someone has a question on mind too thank you what what about exercise um is wood or synthetic better no exercise groups going in there Wood's better it's more give this a this is a floor built on rubber pad and has a lot of gift to her so Zumba all that's better no tap dancing what does pickle ball prefer anything at this point I have an opinion I should I think you like I think it's better to have the synthetic because you're but it has a little more give and a basketball floor is less giving but you do see that when I got I do it that's this this picture is example of one of the issues with a wood floor the shine the shine can be very distracting and the other thing that happens with wood floors if there's uh any dust on the floors it could be a little slippery remember Larry Bird I don't whe you're old enough but but it's a it's a nice surface a synthetic less expensive to install I don't know it's less expensive but the life you have to replace it years going back to the exercise though um we get there's a lot of um problem s with the current and I don't know if it's wood and C cement something underneath and the current Center and it's been the cause of Falls and some injuries because moisture is in the slab underneath I don't know I don't so I'm just wondering it's not cush these these floors are vented so moisture out the signs and um someone else brought up the um point of um making this also a voting Center Laur Joel with the can you go back to the drawing there's a fitness room um the last one that you were slide you were on so other words in addition to the the gym that's being discussed yeah so kind of on the right hand side the top left is that a Sofer for typically or how yeah that is so depending on how many people you have for an activity you may have choices that' be like a spring floor some sort like yeah that would be a spring floor the the the fitness programs the exercise programs are probably one of the more popular programs and they're pretty crowded yeah we're a lot of our Zumba a lot of our Zumba classes are moving into gyms because that's getting to be popular we have other exercise classes that get filled that whole room is filled my yeah so the the gym now what's nice about the gym is it's divided into three so there are curtains that can come down and noise is a bit of an issue but you can have three activity you could have pickle ball here you could have a another group here and you could have a preschooler group here if you wanted to in the morning you know this idea of a center for active living you if you wanted to it's not all or nothing in the gym it's be shared is it you said a curtain coming down but could you actually have a a wall that you pull forward I'm trying to remember I think it's Malden in their big gym yeah wall that they can slide sound cost money never done it it's hard to do and the in M then they have a track on the floor which you really don't want to have Jo can I just talk once again about the the walking Track so in Oakland Road and Simon top of the gym because we don't have the same kind of height restrictions you can have this walking Track that's there that's correct and right now Pleasant Street can't do that even with the gym just because you're already up 22 feet for the ceiling and then you'd have to go it's that and I don't have any way to get up there I'd have to bring two stairs in an elevator because that's the only thing on the top floor of the building yeah and yeah it's not that much taller it's not that much tall it's a little getting there is the there was a com someone had a comment online J they this yes um I want to comment uh on pickle ball for Oakland I I live in the neighborhood and your sighting of the the pickle ball pickle ball court is so close to the houses and that's a constant ping ping ping noise as you all know I'm not I don't think that's an appropriate spot for a pickle B pickle ball court and my other question is are you anticipating lighting at that Court as well we on Oakland we drew the pickle ball to show what that adjacency problem was and as you can see we didn't include it in the cost estimate so it's not included in that scheme but the drawing shows it there so that we could explain how close it is to the neighbors and the noise and the light issues it's not so it's not it would not be at open okay understood thank you good question I oh sorry quick question and it's not actually directed to you it's a town thing that I'm thinking of if we went with Pleasant Street in Oakland have we considered Simon's way using it as Green Space putting the pickle ball courts there and doing the walking backt so we might you might want to come to our sck meeting Monday that's what we're discussing and making recommendation we're putting together our presentation for the bo I didn't know that go ahead yeah I think that that's part of kind of question that you were bringing up the very beginning also to make sure that we're looking at all right I mean I could just just uh respond to like that I I have a lot of experience with pick and the Oakland Road site is really not not ideal on a number of fronts um and basically in that area it would be very expensive to build it I think the 400k is probably not adequate to build that with the excavation whatever would have to be done if we did it there we were thinking it would be like the old paddle ball qus on a platform guess even more not ideal but right and you know just to to say in pickleball land uh I think Sim Simon's way is is a much better site it it gets well away from Neighbors building buildings are in between neighbors and and play but you probably actually need eight courts in town to let you know try and reduce the level of use of other start Jing as what what we would all like to so we could do the pickleball courts on Simon's way but but our community said they don't have to be together they do not have to be together they have not be together in an ideal world that we'd have a clear playing field in readying and everything no Memorial can we break the trust of Memorial p so I just wanted to say that Oak Road is not a good place from it I like it for senior section or Community section any other questions um I just wanted to quickly just say um to everyone here um and online um I just want to say thank you um for all the work that everyone you know especially on both committees the COA and the recal um you know I know you have volunteered to be on these boards um but you know you are it's you know we're doing great things it's but it's taking time um and you know you everyone seems to be coming together even though we still have a long road ahead um I at least on my side I want to make sure you know I want to thank everyone and how appreciative this is I think probably I know I mean it I jennif um and I know probably Matt everyone appreciates everything everyone's doing um you guys bring to the table great ideas great thoughts great questions um and it's an exciting time it's a long road and there's still a lot of things to be figured out but what an exciting it's it's pretty exciting um you know and it's hard to say what what will end up with but I want to make sure that you know that we appreciate all your time that you put into this you know it's late nights more meetings um so thank you all uh very much for all your effort thank you thank youen Jenna do we have a does recal have another meeting set um you don't if you want to discuss that now I would yes awesome so uh suggested when we usually have a mon pleas next wedn everybody's here what about next Wednesday when is the Wednesday that we have the open house I mean the 11 the 11 and that's from 5 to8 of the Satur so the 11 would wouldn't be good no April 3 it's a Thursday I thought it was a Wednesday John this just a recap what we heard yes and we didn't get to you know wrapping UPS yep ail April John sorry does April 3 work for you oh yes yes looking at joh no John so spread out um can we do a 6:30 yes since I'm the only one in the to do it should should I receive I'm the only one that can call for a Ajman of both committees oh there you go do it twice though yeah do it twice we just need to show a hands of recal because it's a hybrid meeting Council they have to actually a roll call right yeah all right so I make two motions at a time it was more fun doing it for so for a recal okay go second all in favor unanimous okay motion to adjourn for the Council on okay R call um Karen Panet yes Karen pontino yep um Karen Jan Jean PR yes Nancy T yes uh Ros Marie oh John Parson [Laughter] oh Michael e e e