e e e may be brought up for discussion to the extent permitted by law this agenda includes those matters which will be reasonably anticipated to be discussed at tonight's meeting please note tonight's meeting is being recorded turn that on as soon as I'm finished uh all material for this meeting will be available in the chat put that in as soon as I'm finished and Mo and mo will contuct tonight's uh will facilitate this meeting please note that there will be public comment period at the end of each hearing each vote taken tonight will be a roll call vote we'll begin with a roll call attendance Matha can you review tonight's agenda and take the roll call sure um we don't have any hearings tonight but under old new business we have a um plan to dedicate the Birch Meadow main fine path we have a discussion of porchfest at the Mata Pavilion and um there may be discussion of violation notices and then we will discuss the draft of the bare Meadow stewardship plan and the bare Meadow Land Use um policy and we'll make plans for the DPW monthly meeting on June 4th and uh talk about the New Town Forest parking lot and Friends and Family Day on June 8th and we have one set of minutes to approve and let start the roll call with um Walter talet uh we cannot hear you yet there because I was off uh Walter talot member present Bill Bill MC member present Tony Tony member present Andy Andy driven member present Ryan Ryan B Vice chair present and Martha Moore chair present and are only six of us here tonight all right so first on our agenda I see you've got mattm already present on Zoom hi Matt hi it's good to see you miss Mar how are you doing today I'm good how are you doing well doing well let me on if yep Chuck's gonna turn on the recording and then can we let Matt talk a little bit about the plan that the first step uh um Matt can talk first but he doesn't well I think Matt's gonna do Matt we're gonna do it just like last night if you don't mind so um so I think that what we'll do first is we'll just let everybody know I'm going to try to pull up the pull up the plan I guess this shouldn't have been first on the agenda huh all right here we go okay and I'm just trying to get this on to our meeting okay this is the this is from the B Metal Master Plan and that path there is called the main spine it's already constructed exists there's a cilian in the center um and then right near that blue line is casine field Jamie M when I first uh got here in 2011 not only interviewed me but um him and Bill heck interviewed me and uh right then that this was a serious Conservation Commission Damie worked for two ch2m Hill legendary Consulting engineering firm that had a lot to do or had it played a major role in the uh I forgot the name of it major role in the Panama Canal sorry I forgot about that and so Jamie was a big big help to me he uh he gave me his cell phone number told me to give him a call anytime I wanted uh it was always available for any of my questions when I first started uh really a decent guy with a great little Southern draw uh I appreciated my time with them and when I was out on uh site visits he' often drive by and waved to me and it was a very friendly situation so I instantly liked reading instantly like Jamie and um I just want to say that uh it was good to know him and I I feel a lot better for that we asked uh Anika skanland uh who served on the commission with Jamie M for I don't know 10 years at least five at least five years uh to also come tonight and speak about her experiences before um you talk mat so if you can just wait one more minute uh and if you could stand at the podium and just let us know just introduce yourself for the record please sure happy to hi good evening um my name's ana scandin um I was just for background I was a a former member of the Conservation Commission from 2007 until 2022 21 losing track um and um the first at least the first as far as I could tell at least the first five years um Jamie and Bill hect and a number of other people were here when I joined um and so I got to work with them very closely for first five years at least and we worked on regulation changes um and I've learned very quickly that um Jamie was very knowledgeable um about environment Al issues Technical and broadly in the from the regulatory standpoint um and also um I was able to work with him on a number of different projects and he also brought a lot of his expertise into town meeting um he was a very passionate Advocate would speak up in specific situations where he knew an a project was near Riverfront or near uh Wetland or Vernal pool and he would speak very convincingly and eloquently at town meeting either about to to explain to other Town members why something was a project was particularly more problematic as it was proposed and what they would need to do to come into compliance with uh the Wetland protection act and and uh so I'm I'm I was always kind of similar to Chuck I was always easily Blown Away by some of his technical breadth and depth and it was um great to have him to work with especially during the regulations changes those were particularly hard to navigate um and he could see a lot of different angles and a lot of different situations and and try to help us to craft the right wording that was broad enough to fit all the different situations so it was um it was great working with him and he is sorely missed thank you thank you hi mat it's it's your turn now but again could you just introduce yourself for the record absolutely a good uh good evening I suppose my name is Matthew M uh formerly of 263 W Street running Massachusetts um I'm here tonight just to speak for a few minutes about the main spine path that is um it's an existing path but the proposed dedication to to my dad uh Dr Jamie M um before getting into my really brief remarks I just want to uh preface all this by saying if you hear any crying in the background it's not me crying tears of joy for the possibility of this dedication I have a a newborn right next to me so apologies in advance if there's any background noise um so this this path specifically um has a lot of meaning and I think represents my dad's uh Legacy well from being a little boy um Gathering Tad poles there in the the Wetland area of casting field to to playing tennis on those tennis courts um my dad and I spent a lot of hours along this along this path or area is around here um talking in part many times about concom he served for I think about 15 years if my math is right um as well as being on a town meeting member and you know I think Anika's comments were were spoton one of the areas that he stressed to me was that a lot of the work that he did was at the intersection of you know science the technical knowledge being able to communicate those those points out and then in the background um the law and how regulation really um was important to to achieving the environmental purposes that that he knew needed to get achieved and that in and I think in large part inspired me to become an attorney and so this this path here again um I think it captures his legacy well it's it's pre I want to say pre-made but it's already existing so I don't have to be concerned about any of the environmental impact which I think of of making A New Path which I think he'd appreciate um and I really just want to say before I wrap up thank you to D one of you for for considering this dedication just for the work that you do uh on the commission it's it's critical uh critically important and I think if more towns more areas more States had commissions like this the um the environment in world would be a better place for um newborns like this one next to me so thank you uh thank you all for your consideration and I really appreciate it right thank you man I think we're we've concluded now so any comments from the commission or motions I just want to say I strongly support this um when the Birch Meadow master plan was being made there was a discussion of putting some playing fields in casine field and I remember Jamie M was the one who spoke up and said I'm sorry that was designated a wetland you can't do that and um that's how that Wetland got delineated when they were putting that master plan together so I think it's very appropriate that the path that goes right across the top end of casine field is dedicated to the person who saved us casine field as a wetland anybody else on the commission comments questions is there anybody with their hand raised on Zoom from the commission Andy thanks for the presentation and Ana and Matt for joining the call I've done a little bit of reading about Jamie over the past couple weeks and seems like someone I would have liked quite a bit and I'm impressed that he stayed on this board for 15 years that I would make a motion to dedicate the main spine path jimie m second okay before we vote there are people in the room that I didn't ask if there's anybody in the room who wanted to make comments no okay and there are there any audience members that wanted to make comments you have to amend your motion I believe yeah where you want to vote to support the recommendation to dedicate met me so it's we're just this is a support for we're got it so I'll make a a motion to support the dedication of the main spine path to Jamie V I will second that as well all right I think we can take a vote Walter talit in favor b m in favor in favor Andrew drien in favor in favor Marth Moore in favor okay so we voted 600 in favor of supporting naming the path in honor of Jamie M thank you for coming tonight Matt thank you so much for for having me um thank you all and have a good night take care right thank you did you have a comment on this topic recording in progress General request M chair sure would you be willing to take something else out of order for those who are present to speak on a particular agenda item um I think not and I have reasons for that um because we have a sequence that we have the um the topics laid out on purpose and it's going to be not very many agenda items so if you be patient I'd appreciate that okay all right so we're done with that one the next one is the porch Fest and needing hosts on June 22nd um so is there anybody on the commission who's willing to commit some time on June 22nd to be there for porchfest and are the rag time orchestra playing the whole time or is there a certain time slot there so uh the venue's changing and they've switched out people so I guess I'm not going to know who's going to be and it seems like there's going to be two bands now um and the time is between 12 and 5 o'clock or 12 and 6 I only ask for between 12 and 5 uh I intend to go there but you know as I said in my notes it would be nice to have other people fill in I plan on being there at least for part of that so Brian can go for some of the time anybody else out of town okay I'll be out of town bill or Walter are you available for any of that time I'm currently working six days a week I can't say why but I'll leave it at that okay so you're not available Walter or Tony I will be on the Viking river cruise in the danu okay so not what kind of excuse is that not Walter either and you're out of town too right okay um all right I think it's Chuck and Brian right okay all right this will be this will be really good sorry no that's all right so that the idea behind this is the Pavilion is just completed or on the verge of being completed and I want to draw some attention to that area and I think that this would be a good way to do it it provides a venue for bands to play it's been in town several times and it'll bring it'll highlight this property so we have some other things coming up this summer to also show up so with that I uh understand that people are busy and uh not no problem be happy to uh to take care of this with Bri okay um and if you need any extension cords or anything like that to make it work just let me know plenty of time ahead of time okay all right so we're we done with that we are okay any violation notice yard waste encroachment we need to discuss tonight no updates there potential new one but we don't know enough yet so we have to okay okay so nothing on the violations um all right there Meadow stewardship plan next on our agenda so we got an updated uh bare meow stewardship plan and uh with the revisions from what I saw I'm not sure if everyone uh had a chance to read this but we're looking for um comments at this point hopefully this would be the final round of comments this is done is there somebody who should be muted who's not M someone is muted now okay all right um Walter you have a hand up yes I do um I had looked at this plan when was originally presented and kind of in my own mind and then you and Chuck had Rewritten a good part of it at least the introduction part for two major reasons first is the whole section on land acknowledgment um we're using the words that it's unseeded lands now I'm not the lawyer but unseated means that the proper transaction did not go through Miriam Webster dictionary decides seeded as yielding or granting a transaction typically by a treaty or a contract or in a more casual definition of signing or transferring I think we're opening up a can of worms by saying that the land that we are going to control or work with is unseed that means legally we may not own it and then there's another sentence that or phrase that says this is uh presented a trauma to this day now I don't want to get involved with politics I don't want to get involved with racism but I think this whole little section should be removed we're not involved with politics or racism or anything like that okay everyone agree on that is that something that yeah Walter I would agree with you on that that was a comment that I had made as well um also from experience talking directly to civil First Nations um they often find those statements somewhat condescending and I had also suggested that passage be removed or at least condensed significantly I think it's worthwhile noting that um there were people living here historically I think that can go in the History Section quite quite tidy quite neatly but I agree I don't think we need the uh the elaboration that uh that you just discussed their thoughts yeah I mean I personally appreciate the acknowledgement that this is land that does not belong to us initially um I think kind could be shortened I agree with that but I don't think it should be removed I think it is a worthy thing to be added in fact I think we should reach out to that should be one recommendation is to reach out to some of the tribal communities and see if they would want to be in land in anyway the land stewardship um that was going to be one of my suggestion of a recommendations I'm not familiar with that I know that from a an MAC Conference there's something called No loose braids um who is very involved with land stewardship in that general area but they're nimu so I'm not sure their interest in um qu a poet but there's got to be other groups out there that um it's not their land as you're addressing properly legally Walt I agree with that but it is their land in the sense that uh they were there first um and that acknowledgement should not be removed um and yeah I think are we trying to make a final decision on all aspects of this tonight or is that something we can we can just come back to yeah if it's lengthy I guess that we would just to our best and uh push it on to the next meeting it nice to get through this yeah I haven't finished my review of the revised document K okay so you don't want to finalize everything tonight for that reason I'd like a chance to finish yeah yeah okay so I think we can make that a discussion item for people to consider okay Bill um yeah um Walter just to speak about um land ownership there's uh there's no question legally in terms of what its current status is in fact uh bare Meadow was purchased with both federal and state assistance in addition to local monies um I can't speak to it otherwise because my my day job I'm a senior federal official but I I did want to just say that about uh ownership status thanks all right um other comments on the bare Meadow plan as far as we've got gotten to I was pleased to see that the math on the total acreage was now adding up correctly at the beginning and they did add ifps which river Watershed as you asked um s sure I just jump in I'm not sure how you want wanted to come earlier in the document this is fastly improved I'll say so that's nice but we don't really ever address the report never addresses how the the area is currently being used um so the ne says that this currently being used for example by dogs and how many people roughly are using the trails is there any sense of how many uh people are going on the Trails um and any other activities that are happening in the bare Meadow would be nice to just have a little so we have the site setting in context we get into history but there's never a section just current use be nice to had a little section like that all right other thoughts and comments um I think there are a lot of recommendations that they have for us and um I noticed that on the very last page of the plan they sort of summarize a lot of those recommendations um but they show up throughout the document and the question is do we have any interest in um sort of prioritizing sequence of how we enact some of those recommendations um or are we just going to sort of accept the whole document and then work at it as time and money allows so do we want to set any priority of what order we tackle these things I would think that at some point we accept the whole plan and then we will pick and choose projects from this list to attack as time and money allows um and actually there's a fair number of these that are duplicate between short-term and long term obiously a longer Horizon but the same kind of topic um since we haven't approved the plan yet I think we can wait till it's approved and then come up with and people could think about it but come up with what they want to address first okay that make sense to to everybody I think we have started implementing some of the requests or the um suggestions on this plan such as putting the trail around the outside edge of the fields in order to keep the um Woody vegetation from encroaching on the field we've done that already um one also there in the short term is one to continue mowing obviously that's happening so there are some things that are already being addressed without full acceptance yeah the spring mowing instead of the Fall mowing for example yeah just a moment to say I don't agree with the no dogs policy that's being proposed okay um I did appreciate in the first draft there was a little more nuance and ackn that um town of Weston had a Cooperative where they had what they called bark Rangers um to say that there were people that were being advocated for were dog owners to treat the trails in that particular area um with respect um and I don't know why that was taken out and why that's not on the table still it's taken out from it's no longer in the report it's not in St I have my my suspicions of why it was taken all right um there was one section that I think may be inaccurate in terms of there's a thing on page 32 of the current draft that says there's a townwide policy of dogs on leash from May 1st to sometime in August and I think the townwide policy is dogs unleash all the time except for in designated spaces so does anybody know otherwise yeah it's on page 32 of this document that actually now has page numbers on it page number one yeah if you look at the page number on the bottom of the page it's page 32 page 38 of 58 if that helps right okay so Tony has requested that we not accept this document as a whole yet because he has not yet had a chance to read the whole thing um so do we want to discuss any other details today or should we discuss the acceptance of this another day Chuck you have not said anything yet yeah no it just sounds like we're still uh we're smithing and editing this so I would just ask that anyone with edits would send them to me track changes sent out the copy thank you Tony of a Word document and if you could use that and um there was a Word document before but you could add that spot where you wanted that uh dog what do you call it Rangers rangers back in I think it's an option um so when I reached out to Bill I really just quickly just sent him all the information that we gathered from members and didn't really talk to him too much the only thing I got back from is he just called it a much edited document so that's why I said like let's see if the next round of edits can be the last or we're likely be making those edits ourselves um I think before we move on on page 15 there are the faal conservation area goals and objectives I think those would be good to review as a group I think they're pretty good it's just a list I don't know if we bring it up or I guess we could discuss it again another time what focus on those highle things rather than we're smithing as a group we do talk about it another time is that something you have on your screen that you could pull up page 15 of this document sure see what I can do to move on I don't want to this conversation if it's only 740 has his hand bill yeah taking um taking uh Andrew's point about bark Rangers um I think particularly in light of the uh petition that you forwarded to the commission I I think that should be weighed in the balance um I I found the uh presentation regarding the benefits of um not having dogs uh in this particular Town property uh to to be persuasive earlier on however um I I do think that and maybe this isn't possible at this point but that should be addressed I.E well would a measure like this work because as currently written it it says you know dogs uh they're supposed to be on leash but you know they get loose and here is the effect on you know bird life and so on and so forth um and again maybe it's too late in the process but it'd be interesting to know what has been the success of a program like that in preventing that negative impact that is addressed in report so I just wanted to put that out there thanks I mean while we're waiting for Chuck I had some thoughts on what Bill said as well specifically with the snow dog policy which will come up but part of the reason of having the current use in there is because we're saying it's being used by dogs at the same time we have these statements that there's an unusually high diversity of plants and animals at the moment so it's not clear to me what the problem is that the no dog policy is addressing we have dogs now we already have pretty good Wildlife uh there and we have the woodcocks that are nesting with dogs so I'm just a little bit um taking it just seems like we're solving a problem that doesn't hasn't been clearly stated potentially doesn't really exist I mean I I know dogs can scare birds but is that really having a big impact on bare medo because he's documenting that this is a environmentally like you're shifting into the next topic so if I could suggest we wait to the next topic and to the nuts yeah we can I mean it's um it's related to these objectives so I would like to okay so Chuck has pulled the objectives up any chance you can enlarge your text a little bit so it's easier for people to see who are looking at the screen oh that's much better thank you shouldn't one of the objectives all be for the use of people of read I mean I'm all for protecting the habitat bellies and Wildlife but as good Steward as conservation we are opening this land for Town people of the Town R I'm not sure if that's the number one thing that's happening up there if if you ask me but it should be it's not even one of the objectives at the maybe not the top priorities yeah I this is um like I said for me I would just to me it's correlated somehow but not directly butland protection act doesn't have one of the interest as the acts of opening spaces up so people can get out there the only the closest one is the closest one to what's being contemplated here is the protection of wildlife habitat right and that's what I believe the commission is attempting to do with not only the study but maybe our next topic also I think if you look at the text that's cut off at the very top of this page that's the place where IT addresses passive Recreation so if you scroll just a smidge and then put push left yeah that paragraph So the introductory paragraph addresses the question you asked about passive Recreation for residence and just out of Vi at the top it lists this examples of the passive Recreation there you go picnicking bird watching skiing snowshoeing nature observation and walking so they are there they're just not bulleted down below would you like to see them also bulleted down below is that what you're suggesting no I mean I like to see it is currently being used as class of recreation I think that should remain one of the objectives of the plan like to add it into the bullet items Chuck it says elsewhere in this document that the this is a secondary goal snowshoeing and all that the primary goal would be the habitat restoration the protection of all those interests and the secondary goal shouldn't um come before the the primary goal and so there's language in there about that I suggest you look at that prior to figuring out where we're putting bullets in and then see if that works out because we might have to change that area also yeah that is not being direct but I think we should change that area as well I mean so mean we'll talk about it more but we're conservation group conservation is for the use of people first honestly it's the way it's been for over 100 years and this is uh kind of a discussion about preservation which I'm completely comfortable with and happy to talk about but that is not something we often deal with on this commission um so it's kind of taken a step outside of uh where we usually are well we're not Park we're not creating a park here like you know Castine and Birch Meadow and and things like that we're this is this is for the opportunity to see uh Wildlife to see birds to see you know flora and fauna in their natural conditions and that's the protection that we're looking to do I I think that you're the and the other goal that we're trying to do is to make it clear that this is the most pristine area in town at this moment that allows people to walk through it and we want to set that aside but also let everyone know that other places can be opened up and that's kind of the give and take of of what's Happening Here If we open everything up uh you know it'll be more fragmented have more development and more development pushes out um you know wildlife and whatnot so instead of this area being just the same as everything else we'd like it to be elevated to um more natural more wild and that's why people would go there not just to walk their do I have Andy before you respond can I just so your original premise was that conservation is for the residents of reading and what have you in reading the MACC guidance um it it says the responsibilities are for protecting the land water and biological resources of their communities doesn't say anything about U making it easy to have lots of traffic of any kind it says protect those things now um you have a different point about maybe dogs aren't impacting that that's a conversation but um those are the three things that are the purpose of the commission according to MC MCC and Walter has his hand up and Brian jumped in so let's let Walter go and Tony well I think Brian worded it quite well the def definition of conservation is humans do not use we conserve things as they are sustainability is the environmentalist term for let humans use it but make sure humans also maintain it and not make it worse so I stewardship may be a stretch on the word sustainability Tony well I'm I'm trying to Ste clear of the preservation versus conservation argument but one action that I see this board take in almost every decision is a certain amount of restoration most of our projects do involve restoration whether it's expanding a a a previously Disturbed Zone by by planting native vegetation uh maybe it's removing trash maybe it's it's asking someone to relocate a shed so that uh at least the buffer zone um has a chance to become restored and and and I see this plan is as an extension of that philosophy as a chance to restore not just protect what's there but as an opportunity to restore what what it really could be restore it to a a more native natural um uninterrupted property you know and I understand that that there are certain passive activities that are that are important to its function and it's important to its use um but I see this plan as a step of getting us closer to more of a of a natural state in a restoration context Andy I I appreciate that that comment and um and and well and Brian's as well but to Brian your comment about the MC all of that is we want to protect the water for our own use and for the use of the animals uh it's not just for the wildlife's sake and we see that on the board all the time with respect to conservation the high the premier place on the US is national parks that is like the high Mark of conservation established by to Teddy Roosevelt and they allow dogs um it is very much for the sake of wildlife protection and everything you mentioned but they are not trying to preserve and create reing I mean it's a huge area so there are Parts where the reing but the basic idea behind the National Parks from the very beginning has been to allow people to use it uh and they've been uh fighting with that for the past 100 plus years uh now last I do think it's important that we take this to be a role model in terms when we keep saying that this is pristine this is the Premier area I love bar medine um and I I think my first time here was the first Conservation Area because it's just so Central to town um but I think it is as the document notes has a wealthy amount of wildlife but it's the same things you'll see in the backyard are it's the same things we see that come before this board it's not super unique it's not rare uh if this were before the board we would not be able to protect parts of this this site um and I think we should be making people aware of what is there uh and trying to make sense of it um so that people appreciate it and in that regards it's we're talking specifically the part that is I feel like is causing a lot of this that the grasslands and we want to rewi it that is a cultural grassland that's the definition it has been um harvested and and manhandled for the past 400 years we're not talking about something that's pristine we're talking about something that has been used by people and probably dogs for a very long time and I complet to be honest I find it a bit um ironic that we're sitting here Congress talking about reing this area that's a cultural grassland um but not I think again bero is great I think we need to um set it up as this is the way we want to treat all conservation areas not this is pristine and we want it to be different from the others that's F that's good yeah I I would just let you know that even the national parks rest most of their areas and prevent the public going there well it naturalized so and the ones that the people go to all the [Music] time you know in all honesty that's just so they can get their money and get people there you know so they're not it's true and so well now there's there's a really rich conservation preservation uh history between Teddy Rosevelt and and John we Aldo Leo I think it's fantastic and Teddy Teddy Roosevelt is a strong conservation is really putting people first um and that has been the standard definition of conservation since the 19s preservation became more popular in the 1940s and 50s when we wanted to really not build on things preserve them there's been a kind of an Ang between the two that still plays out today Walter has his hand up also okay Walter then Brian well since we're doing history lessons Teddy Roosevelt set up the national parks set up the national forests for no humans to use he used them for conservation it wasn't until actually believe it or not President Nixon passing all of his laws that let us use the parks and use uh these resources and also at the same time do sustainability with all the laws he passed or or enacted I should say for conserving Wildlife there's a famous example of the hchi dam in San Francisco where John we wanted to protect hchi um and uh Teddy Roosevelt as the president was able to veto John you know John M is the great conservationist um and there's quotes that you can see at the Museum of Natural History in New York from Teddy Roosevelt where he says that conservation is about the greatest good for the greatest number of people he was all about making sure that whatever was happening in these lands which he had a great appreciation for was people first nature second not necessarily you have to agree with that but that is conservation at its core okay Brian um I think it's problematic to be pointing to a view of conservation from over 100 years ago things change knowledge changes time change these different studies and everything I've read They're All fairly recent 2006 2007 whatever so did Teddy go ever study dogs did to a a natural area no so this is new information so we shouldn't be held by what Teddy thought as opposed to what scientists of today today are discovering and concluding about the impact of dogs as I said last time dogs off leash is the worst dogs on leash still have problems um they have the problem because they still stress a wildlife and you said birds so do we eat I I agree um and um when you stress them uh they may uh be displaced they may find a new place to uh to live and do everything which has less cover perhaps or less food and so they don't survive as well you have the fragmentation of the populations which has a measurable impact on populations especially of ground dwelling animals um and you you point to the fact that uh this person Bill mat aabon walking through documented a a rich diversity of wildlife in there that's true and but that by itself does not prove that there has not been an impact nor that there won't be an impact um you know just because you see some things now are fewer than than they were before the population stressed and what other factors play into that besides just what those kind there so I would suggest that we do what we can to understand what the science is what the research is and making decisions based on protecting the things we're supposed to protect which is land water and biological resources now biological resources is the wildlife among other things you know so um to to me I I really don't want to hear what John did or Teddy roselt did or Nixon did you know these these studies are much more recenter what I would like to see is a study that shows that the dogs are having an impact on bar meta those are generic studies that are saying dogs have an impact on Wildlife people have an impact on Wildlife too you acknowledge that um these are about fundamental assumptions about our relationship to Nature so we are a conservation group that name was probably chosen very carefully you're not a preservation commission um so I think you have to be somewhat respectful of that name um if I could read from the organic Act of 1916 that established National Park Service um signed by woodro Wilson not Teddy Roosevelt the purpose of parks monuments and reservations is to conserve scenery and the natural historic objects and the wildlife therein and provide for the enjoyment of the same uh of the same in such Manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future Generations so I don't think it's accurate to say one way or the other that it was meant to Outlaw human activity or to Outlaw you know G to completely preserve what's there I think we have to approach this with some common sense I think we have to approach this uh for for what the property itself needs um if there is an idea of understanding what the adverse effects of dogs are a way to start might be to stop dogs from going in and see how the property responds over a 10year period that seems Dr I don't disagree but that's an experiment and you're also removing the land Steward that are taking care of the land um so I think it goes hand in hand but I I mean we're here to discuss it I I think it's um I think it's out of I've seen a lot of wildlife discussion that gets kind of pushed talk to the side in former conversations I love you guys know I'm all for protecting the wildlife that is not my agenda here uh I have a a dog who I do not walk where my dogs there very often but I did walk my dog when I first got her there she was from Mississippi she's a rescue and that dog never seen anything like that I've never since I've had her for five years I've never seen her so excited hopping on two feet that's just a very fond memory I have have fa meow and it's my dog um and I mean it was a very she was on leash and um it's just one of those thing that I mean we could T her to any other one that's the one I happen to go to I'm just wondering it's like there's a couple times that you you talked about let's just take this one but why was the dog excited and and to me it sensed smelled and understood that there was opportunity there and that's what we're trying to protect because when the dogs walk through they can sense that there's birds nesting just few feet away and and and you thought you know hey this is great my dog's so happy and I'm wondering you know what what did they sense what what was the sense that was going on what was the dog after what why was it so excited I mean you must have let it Rome in other spots this is this is a new spot and what's different it's because there was Wildlife there because there was activity and there was a lot of new and unusual smells could be don't disagree but um she stayed on leash she's not as far as I know get any birds um and uh she was pretty excited around our own neighborhood too but there was a level of excitement there from her and uh yeah I mean again we're addressing I just feel like we're there's not a a known problem you can say dogs are impacting wild level I'll never disagree with that but there's not a known problem of How It's particularly impacting bare Meadow we're we're addressing a problem that is it's not even acknowledged in the report we're kind of assuming because the science says that dogs are going to have an impact on Wildlife that if we remove the dogs then we're going to have more Wildlife but I I don't see it that way and I'm understand to be more wildlife point is um to protect the habitat and therefore the wildlife that's there I'm not saying we're going to grow a population of you know more Woodcock or anything to protect um what is there and that dog is threatened whether or not it's a well- behaved dog from Mississippi on a leash your average animal isn't going to know that they have instinctive responses the predatory animals and the fact of the matter is sometimes dogs do win there is a direct impact but even if all they do is walk through and leave their scent that has an effect on the wildlife their behavior and whether or not they get displaced I hate I have research that says people have an impact on Wildlife but but they do and and if if you want to make the suggestion that we should keep people out of there I think that's going too you can do that but dogs are clear a much bigger threat uh instinctively to to uh animals that dogs have store be I don't have the research that says dogs are a bigger impact than people I would like to see that so and of course you realize that every dog marks its territory on top of the previous dogs who just mark their territory so this is this is what the wildlife avoids and this is what stresses them out and it's not and it's not hey you know Andy's gone let's get back to it you know it's not that this this is overwhelming and you you might have two Woodcock one year and you might have if we if we cut out paths that BCT the meadow and people are walking around the edge instead of that we might have more Woodcock habitat might not have any something else might get in there but you don't know and I think if if you're satisfied with what's out there now it would only be enhanced I'm hoping for some more you know maybe we can say find some uh you know 10 years from now five years from now maybe some mega b comes in and uh something that's really notable yeah I just I think we should advocate for more Park Rangers like Park Rangers people uh with dogs I like to see that explor more there's no opportunity I actually just had just had a discussion tonight with someone in town and everyone agrees that that would be a great idea but it's not something the town's going to do right now so I don't know how we can fund that and I think that that's a great opportunity also because if we said one dog and one you know on a leash in in bare Meadow and that's what happens or you're kicked out you get a fine and there's someone there making sure that that happens but uh and then all these other ones and as you know you can recognize dogs and all that so you kind of understand from someone saying oh it was this dog this white dog or something like that you would you would if you were the B Ranger you'd be able to understand who that person is the next time they comes through you could have a conversation we just don't have that opportunity here can you put page 32 and 33 of the document up on the screen since that is the policy information that Andy's saying is not in the document let's see what he actually did say so it's the pages that end with 32 and 33 on the bottom with the with the B Rangers no just the yeah okay this is the part in the document about how dogs affect Wildlife Etc so for example Mass aabon has a no pets policy conflict between some dogs and other dogs some dogs and people and then what's the next part about how do dogs affect Wildlife so that would be on 33 I guess the last thing I'll say is um as I'm acknowledged the bark range's recommendation in the report before and I think there was some push on the inside to get the no dog policy into the reports as way to advocate for the no dog policy so I think it's it's I take the recommendation when the Autobon has it so there's a bias up front and I think it's just a little disingenuous the way it has been presented okay can you enlarge the text so it's a little easier to read thank you okay anybody else on the commission with comments at the moment okay I saw some hands in the audience I know we've been talking a lot but for the audience I am going to set a three minute limit so just give me a second okay um Susan had her hand up first okay all right thank you Jennifer Hillary uh a couple of points I wanted to make in listening to this discussion first of all I completely understand share Mo while it made sense to have this discussion first I appreciate you having it this is the first time I've had a chance to look at the document that's being discussed and there's actually two posted on the town website so I'm curious which is the most current draft and to member Andy driven point between the two drafts did this committee vote to make changes to the most current draft or or how what's different how would I know what's different between the two drafts unless I went in line by line good question the document should be dated and the one in April is the most current I also believe it's higher up on the uh list and did the first draft which doesn't have a date therefore come directly from the aabon and that's what came from the aabon and how did the second draft come to be so the draft was discussed at our meeting and the commission had marked up the document and sent it back to mass Autobon uh and changes was made I I don't know if the perception of what the commission was reaching for was also included in the difference between the two but there was some markups that uh that happened during a public meeting so my question for the commission then is if this is being pushed on to the next date which draft so the public knows which to review will be considered the first draft since there may be some confusion their drafts so the latest draft would be the one we're talking about so in order for that draft to go forward with Mr driven suggestions he he would have to go through the first and make sure that those get put in that newest draft or anyone from the public should make those suggestions so any any I I think we're getting to a point where it was easy the first round because the drafts made sense and it was all about things being missed or titled in the wrong way but we might be at a point where when uh commissioner driven has a um a section he wants to add it would have to be voted on by everyone else in order to move forward and get to uh the document and be added um just from a procedural standpoint if it would also seem to me that a vote should be taken on the initial draft for things to be removed that's not how it works um and then my other point I'll save for the next discussion so if we uh if just to elaborate a little bit more if we approve a draft uh it so it's not even listening but uh J still on I was going to say just to elaborate a little bit more that if we approved the first draft then we would have approved the document so we keep it in draft form until it's finalized and then we take a vote to approve it so we can make changes until that happens but I I thought about removing the original one but I thought just to keep everything open for everyone looking they could see that there's two drafts this is the original one this is where we're at now um I could I could work on how they're presented on the website so people understand it was the next generation an easy way to tell which is which is the first draft did not have any page numbers on the bottom of the pages and the second draft he put in page numbers so that's a really straightforward quick thing to notice if you're reading one with no page numbers that's the original version that was awkward to work with because of the lack of page numbers on the actual Pages yeah it's the April 2024 is the current one yeah okay all right um oh will okay come on up to the podium if you're gonna talk because we can't hear you on the mic unless Susan B um so just a few observations yesterday Jen and I were walking in verto and um we came to a junction where somebody had hauled out of the earth um like a iron bar railing type thing that had a chunk of wood attached to it and they just had placed it very precariously up on top of this wooden steak post that tells you with the arrows which way to go so being good stewards as we are we took it down because somebody it might have fallen they might have tripped over it it was just kind of happen stance where did that come from why did somebody call it out why was it put up there just like weird we also um took pictures and noticed that the deer stand is still there even though it's almost towards the end of May um and another observation I just wondered did you guys work with um mass aabon as far as the bluebird houses and where they're situated and where which Bluebird houses are actually used and their flight patterns um because the brand new big trail that goes back behind is right in their homes and I know that we're trying to you know protect animals and things like that and I just don't feel that having the new Trail so snugly in their backyard um might have been the best place to put that trail um so I just wondered if you actually had did a survey with mass autobond and if they knew about the bluebird nesting and where the houses were that were being used and that's why they suggested you put it up there or you get or was it just thought about to be put up there and then the other thing is if you're you know I think it's great that you're inviting people to come and use the Gazebo and stuff like that but is loud music going to be the best thing for the animals and their habitat because that certainly hasn't happened in the past so there's a lot of things that are being done that might contradict some of the activities you're suggesting not happen those are all good questions thank you will well Finch uh 51 M Street um former KC member um I've just got some notes here I'll just go through them quickly not in necessarily order of what you spoke about them um we've lived on the air for about 35 years and have noticed a a a definite decrease in the number of wood talks we just don't see woodcocks in the in the meadow um displaying anymore and that is as we perceive it um been affected by the increase in the number of dogs in the area because we we've also observed that um we've also observed um this may be another section you know a lot of um commercial outd doog Walkers companies that are in there and I just observed um seven dogs in The Marin Woods um Conservation Area and L pound M um so it's that's definitely something that needs to be addressed at some point maybe not in this document um as so far as dogs in National Parks they are not allowed on trip Trails on any national park that I've been on there are allowed on paved trails and roads in national parks on leash far as bare Meadow yes it's it's Unique um in this town as as the only Open Meadow or um so I think it's valid to cons treat it differently um than other conservation areas in town um I um and I why not accept the opinion of scientists that dogs have an impact a negative impact on the wildlife just as Chuck was saying about dogs marking their territory um it's it's valid research that again Brian has said has been done more recently than um a lot of the people that established um Parks initially um as far as the bluebirds going go the bluebird houses have not been maintained um since they were put up sure I see them but yeah so you're right there's been no study on who's using what but um want to make sure you're not mixing them up with the swallows too oh no um there have been in the past weddings at the Mata cabin so I imagine there was a fair amount of noise from that but I take your point about never thought about having a concert up there especially for the neighbors that are right there right so thank you thank you all right anybody else is there anybody on Zoom no there um you want to make that announcement I'll just um if you're on zoom and you'd like to speak just use the r uh reaction button and click on the raise hand function and will'll uh facilitate um ability to speak at tonight's meeting seeing none okay all right um Tony asked that we not finalize this tonight so are we not needing a motion and a vote tonight and we can go on to our next topic and circle back around to this one absolutely just any changes just use uh track changes if have that ability would be great even mark up your own document and send it to me would be you don't have track changes you have track changes use I'll send you a marked up pdf I don't I can't track changes we also have a word and before we so we're gonna talk about this maybe in our next meeting or maybe in a future meeting I don't know if you want to hold your comments until we're finished the discussion and then send those to me because I won't sending this this round the bill I'll be sending final you know after all of our discussion after we've figured it all out and have some changes that's what I'll be sending to so you can you don't have to send anything to me at this point unless you're finished with your comments somebody just showed up that they have a raised hand sure Emily um what happened here do you want to uh unmute yourself and uh introduce yourself for the record you can turn on your video If you so choose oh well yep it's working you should be able to unmute yourself Emily okay can you hear me now y please introduce yourself hi my name is Emily Adams I'm at 725 Hail Street and um I'm sorry I can't be there in person tonight I'm actually working from the emergency department in Everett so took a quick break to join you guys this evening because I feel extremely strongly about we're talking about this evening with Mata um I actually moved to the area because I love that green space that's there um we walk in it every day with our dog who is always on leash and we always have poop bags um so if anybody ever needs poop bags we have them um and my toddler and it's very important to me that I am able to get my kid out and into the nature and experiencing nature and learning about it and the dog and the kid kind of come as a package deal their best friends um our dog even helped us do some conservation work there we um he found a baby owl and we were able to take the baby owl to a shelter the shelter was able to make sure that he was okay and able to be returned to the nest we paid the $100 fee to get an arborist to climb the tree and safely put the baby back into its nest and um now we have a owl that lives there that we see regularly um again um we just want to keep things respectful with the one dog one leash policy we're totally happy with that we're happy to follow those rules um and would' love to see it stay the way it is um thank you thank you okay anyone else uh like to uh speak oh Molly Sure hold on a second hey Molly you should have permission to uh unmute yourself and turn on your video If you so choose just introduce yourself the record yeah good evening everybody uh Molly is my daughter I'm using her iPad so uh Peter Lennox with 722 Pearl Street um appreciate everything everybody's doing uh but I did want to comment on uh on the use of the land as far as the dogs go um I'm a 61y year resident of this town and he moved uh into this property in 1994 so we've been through the various iterations of what that land was used for with the kids uh ripping it up over there and uh uh the police have uh figured that out long go but uh you know over the years we've seen uh you know a lot of people go up to that property um recently and uh most of them are are dog walkers to be honest with you um they're always very respectful um you know the families up there with the with the with the dogs um you know in a couple years ago uh there was a move of foot to to put some signs out uh to bring more to attract more people I would imagine uh to the property it's a beautiful place we're out there all the time um and uh like I said most of the people that I see um uh are walking dogs very respectful most of them are on leashes there have been some incidents that uh dogs are not on leashes um but you know for the most part uh like again very respectful people are very friendly um dogs are very well behaved and uh I'm sure there's Ence there that I'm not aware of um but uh I just wanted to comment on that we have we have two dogs that absolutely enjoy the property um they uh you know if we try to take them down the street they want to go straight to be Meadow they uh they absolutely love it there um and they enjoy the trails we walk uh through a Bay Meadow and out to havil Street down havil street and back it's a great walk for them uh and we meet a lot of friends along the way so um I can't s about the property and uh uh and how the dogs uh enjoy it so thank you very much thank you okay H there's no one else attending the meeting so I know there's Noone else that wants to talk at this moment um I want to respond to will I think that kind of information about the Woodcock is what's missing from our report I don't know if you can get that info to Chuck um because that is really good to to acknowledge and and and to take into consideration um I do think you misre or misspoke on I did not say that dogs don't have an impact on Wildlife I I agree with the science the science also says people have an impact on Wildlife I would argue from the science I've read people have a far bigger impact on wild um so I don't think we're addressing the problem fto by getting rid of the dogs um I think I'm fear this discussion might go on longer than my term on the commission so I would like to make a motion um and I do agree with this strongly we do need a dog policy commercial dog walkers should not be allowed uh at their meta so on page 52 of the draft um where it says adopt an Implement a no dog policy I would like that change to adopt and Implement a dog policy U which can be discussed it could become no dogs if so desired but I don't like it being that specific um and then related to the next Point prepare and install ative size at the parking lot Trail has to educate visitors about rationale for the said dog policy um so it could still become no dogs if that's where we wanted it to go uh but I do and I do agree that the report we should have some sort of dog policy that we Implement and I think that should be reflected in the report so you're making that as a motion right now I don't I mean I could put it in the comments you guys will know I'm going to do that but I don't know what what value that's going to do so I'm making a motion to to edit the uh short-term projects to adopt and implemented doll policy so it would need to be seconded if people wanted to actually vote on something at this point on this policy you do have one more meeting two two more is it likely this will be on the agenda um within two meetings chair uh it could be sure uh thinking about what we have as upcoming items I I would say there would be room to have it on the agenda so I don't know Andy if you want if you intend to be here at the meetings if you withdrew your uh motion but brought it up if you were going to if it was your last meeting that might be that might allow everyone to just be able to have a you know not be pinched in with with this at this point and yeah that's I'll let TRW okay I think we're gonna be able to get this in within the next two meetings so I would suggest we put it on the next agenda if nothing else that may encourage people to get their best and final comments yeah I I would like to get it settled sooner rather than later so that we're not gonna do it today let's make it the following meeting with that being said we have a small public I mean is this on display that this is being discussed at bare Meow in any way shape or form that there's this is a policy change well it was on the agenda no no is it at verto oh at veretto I don't think there's any signs posted at baretto about it I know Bill correct me I don't think we have any legal obligation but I think it would be respectful to uh I know that people so that's such slow hanging fruit I could actually answer that one we don't have any legal obligation to post signs at bare Meadow about this meeting but you could make a suggestion as your as a commission member you could you could ask for that I don't think it's you know I don't like to hear what other people think about it yeah I mean I guess I don't know I would like to see the public people know that there's a propos policy change for the dogs and that should be we had more people at the first meeting it seemed to you know people seemed to understand what was going on and it was posted in the same way with the same language it was not clear in the agenda that we're it's all kind of hidden within the bare meow discussion um you have to kind of be in the um I'm just going to say it came up at the previous meeting when we were in that tiny room over there um that if we're going to be announcing this to the dog walkers who are currently walking their dogs at bar Meadow how do we get the message out to all the other people who might use bare Meadow if there weren't dogs walking there there's probably people in town who would be thrilled to know that there is a piece of conservation land where they could bring their toddler and not be worried that there's going to be dogs in that property I think that's a fair question and I think that's community outreach we have done zero community outreach to get side right side of this is not public this is conservation land this is up to this Commission and manage this piece of property it's not up to how many ever dog walkers and nonog Walkers come in here and all mad about it or the other people that say often enough I've been in the town Force meeting is usually someone who comes up and says that they were bit by a dog or they saw somebody not cleaning up after their dog and it's it's the same I mean we could have 400 people here we're going to get both sides again so I don't mind putting something up there but what I don't want to happen is the Conservation Commission to think that this is a popularity discussion it has to do with how you want to manage the land and and that's it and the bluebird that was discussed on our first site visit with Mass audon and they suggested the path so the benefit of the path not going through the center of the meadow must have outweighed the bluebirds and so that's what we want and there will probably be a path all the way around that perimeter and I'm sure something's going to lose out but on the other hand the benefit that we were told about about having one connected piece of grass land outweighed any of those other minor distractions and Tony brought up a good point too all the edge comers that live there with a habitat and that's where they like to be right there on the edge now we're driving people in that area so it might be something to think about to keep that path out a little bit more but that's part of the discussion and where we're going you know all this back and forth and all this discussion we're having okay I think Kim had a hand raised 51 Street may I suggest to the commission that you clearly separate the acceptance of this study which you commission so that an expert would give you advice and some policy suggestions from a new dog policy for Bare Meadow or in general um so that you can just accept or and ask for any changes to the the study the bare metal study and the the the study the Mr aabon may say suggest this or that relative to dogs but that's his suggestion your next meeting if you're going to accept the study should not be in my opinion a discussion of what the next po dog policy is at least not as a as a its own agenda item your your job is seems to me is to accept the study accept this guy's recommendations with some guide with some suggestions from you guys um but don't mix the two they're two different things because you're going to have a packed meeting when you come up with a new dog policy and then you probably do want to put up some more signage because I want to know about it as a non-dog person um so I can be there and give my perspective but to me that's two different things and just for the record I have been bit in uh bare Meadow um not badly the dog owner was um apologetic um and also for the record i' like I have some suggestions if it comes up later but I would like to see at least a one Trail or maybe one through Trail one of the edge Trails um where dog walkers could could use the use be meow because it's really a wonderful way to get people out there even though I don't have dog and I'm not a big fan of dogs thank you right that's an interesting suggestion though in terms of timing I think we shouldn't improve the land use change in the same day we approve plan because we could I don't know it just seems like the public should see the plan then they could also take the consideration and then we could have a meeting after that to say all right this is the plan we finalized how is that going to impact your policy and then you need people to process it we've processed it you need to give people the the ability to try to process it I know that might push me out of the discussion but I think it's fair that's what she com yeah well that's the next item on the agenda and we have um spent a lot of time on on that topic without actually getting there um okay so shall we move on it is 8:32 we've spent an hour on I'm confused are we going to conservation in monthly meeting well we've been talking a lot about Meadow Land Use discussion but we actually haven't pulled that document up on the site and talked about whether we want to change the dog policy so so far as far as I know we're still on draft bear Meadow stewardship plan so the next item is number five and Kim probably has a very good point that we should not be doing them on the same meeting but that is currently what's on the agenda her bigger point is we should the recommendation is from an expert who that's their opinion and I agree with that bill yeah I I confess I may have been confused I don't see how you separate the two I mean the the bare Meadow stewardship plan talks about the impact of dogs as has been clearly point pointed out tonight so again this may just be I thought I thought you know figuring out how we felt about the stewardship plan was a conditioned precedent to then doing the land use discussion which suggests a no dog policy and the amount of the fine I I don't see how we could possibly move on to five without having settled four so I guess I guess I'm I'm in Andrew's camp on that thank you it's a good point maybe we should just review the changes and hold off of on a vote until we settle the uh and again I don't I think the one expert's opinion and we have it out there it's almost like the open space plan we're not going to do everything in the op Bas plan but it's there for reference and we'll make policy based on it or craft it in a way that fits the town so I think that that's what we have here with this stewardship plan something to to think about to strive for but may not work so I do have this up so I don't know Brian do you want to go over this these changes and Billy are you uh I just see that your hands up still are you and I'm not seeing the screen are you all set I apologize yeah I just didn't lower it sorry okay thank you and Molly Lennox which is not Molly Lennox h want to unmute yourself andet no I am I am all set thank you very much okay great uh all right we're all good all right so yeah closer sure okay so the point of this is just to lay out what we are proposing to change this is not to drive at a final decision and to vote the changes this is just so people can see the document so things are highlighted in yellow obviously the first date May 1 is gone by the boards that will have to be updated whenever we get to the point of tempting proposal or not um next line is all visors must remain on the mark path that's uh again to minimize any vegetation of wildlife disturbance off the path move down Che all right so this is a um Clause that's intended to cover all the conservation areas so it's saying with one exception which would be bare metal if and when that is decided that way with one exception dogs may enter conservation land provided there on leash un Mark path all times um so this is common sense it means everywhere else at least you can have dogs have to be on a leash have to pick up after them right away and this is proposing a limit of three dogs per dog water the the exception is if we decide to have a no dog policy of bare Meadow which we're not may be it actually oh and so the blue here is just something that we need to talk about that's the $100 fine for violation that obviously hasn't been updated in a long time so it's something that we should consider again if when we get to this the matter overall so only a few changes although there has some potential big consequences so okay any uh any questions or comments on these proposed changes can I ask you to make the text figger on that screen too I'm especially thinking about somebody's watching on TV they won't really be able to read that that's the idea you got up to get closer for sure um there we go all right so there's another step involved so this ticketing for violations if we're going to do a fine in some way Conservation Commission must update their regulations through add violating this violating of these rules for conservation land in Section 8 of the enforcement and update the fine schedule once we do that so in the regulations uh then we would bring this to the town account accountant would need to either set up an account which I don't think is going to happen but that's an option for some boards or these fines would go right into the general fund which is what I suspect would happen now that whole line there already exists all we were questioning is whether we should change the $100 I'm telling you how we're going to send do violations so we're going to vote on this and if it has a violation there's another step to do and I'm going over that now which is we have to update our own regulations because there's no this violation doesn't exist in that okay so we're going to update our own regulations and we're going to update the fine schedule which is in our violations and that's under Section H it's in our viols no it's in our regulations that we can't update the Bible but May mention that we can change correcting you're say in our violations in our regulations okay okay yeah um then the ticketing the ticketing would have to be filled out and I guess all commission members uh would be able to do that and we have ticket books and you would just uh fill them out pretty pretty easy just fill that out you would cite the section of our regulations that they're violating they would have to pay the town clerk within 21 days or it could become a criminal complaint so just so you know what would happen if someone didn't pay okay check there there is one typo um under Section 8 subsection f after number four the numbering restarts on the next page is one two three four and then down to one you might want to fix live yeah we looked at that why did that happen have we addressed that format problem I think it's fixed on the website I'm not sure but I know that we all we all looked at that and here it is again does it to you every time here it is again no I grabbed this from the email that I has s yeah if you scroll down again please to the yellow area I I don't like the wording with one exception because it doesn't say what the exception is can you say with the exception of something yeah we could um I think you just wanted to get into the bare medal exception one time which is why it's down below but it's a valid point yeah because why why don't I have that exception as a dog walker is my that's how I read that sentence I want that exception as a dog walker okay so perhaps moving no dogs are allowed in bare Meadow Conservation Area to the beginning of that paragraph and then saying with that exception right that makes sense I get I get his point I get the point I think just con deluded I think it would be easier to to say with the exception of bare Meadow and then that rather than yeah breaking it down for okay same point just different so we can Wordsmith that before the next time we discuss this because it sounds like that there's expectation that we will not pass this policy tonight is that correct I would think that's cor do that work for all of you we push this off again okay there something you want to say had that look there's nothing more I've said enough you do have that look all right um we need to make this on the very next bill yeah I still had the a comment um on the on the $100 if that had come from the uh statute you're citing I'm I'm a big believer in uh updating these things as as you all probably know sometimes they'll they'll give a dollar amount or a dollar limit and then the legislature won't do anything for another 20 years and it becomes ridiculously low so you know first of all I I think having a fine is important I understand and thank you Chuck for going through all the mechanics of that but I think um we're on did the $10000 come from statute or was it a state figure and we're thinking maybe we go higher than that I'm just I'd like to qu uh clarify that first $100 is in the 2008 version perfect so what I'm suggesting is you can go to US inflation adjuster US inflation calculator online very easily plug in $100 for 2008 and see what it gives you for 2024 US inflation calculator adjuster it's it's a standard and widely available and um I think if you go with that it's very solid because of someone says well you know was $100 back in 2008 why they change oh it's just adjusted for inflation you know we're not playing around here we're just adjusting it for inflation most people understand that um and so I just want to suest that in addition to thanking you both for for your work on this and the other question I had uh it didn't strike me as odd I was just wondering how you came up with the number three for the dogs so so where that came from was U we recognized that there are individuals who will walk more than just their dog they will walk neighbor's dog a friend's dog some people have two dogs and walk a neighbor's dog we want to allow some multiple dog walking without opening it up for a commercial dog walkers with a p pack of seven or eight right and this is what I thought was the reasoning and thank you for that um and that sounds good to me okay those are my comments thanks yeah one other answer to that same question was the mechanics and possibility of accurately tracking the um waste matter of more than three dogs becomes challenging if you're trying to pick up with your plastic bags after five or six dogs that it's a little hard to track that many so um we figured three might be the upper limit of that you could actually in a practical sense get the feces collected um and we're ignoring the fact that those dogs are all going to be marking their territory but at least we're not leaving the feces lying around Brian and Bill I want to say one more thing about the $100 fine y I like your idea of figuring out what the inflation adjustment would be however once we get to that number whatever it comes out to I would like us to think about whether or not that number is actually um enough of an impact to get the behavior we're looking for I I'm yeah I'm completely I'm completely with you there Brian I understand right I just wanted us to get there as a as a baseline I've already done the calculation comes out to about $146 which I think you round up to 150 so 150 is adjusted for inflation and as you said then we can talk about you know is that enough as a deterrent um okay good thank you um to force has their own policy correct that they've been updating but they have updated I don't think difference Town Forest has to be voted on by just with us I don't think their have been voted on yet it has not so that not the new one whatever it actually says now has not taken effect do you know if they're suggesting a three dog limit or what their limit is been their limit is less than three okay I'm not opposed to changing two I guess be consistent with the town Force just for my own I'm walking three dogs be in trouble I know there's a handful of people that have three dogs there a handful of people have two dogs but um it's consistent with Town Forest and I think it's a good policy it's no problem when they're all off leash but when the policy says that they have to be on leash and that that ends up being a problem with the two dog limit three well yeah probably easy with two dogs on leash than it is with three dogs on leash oh we are they are must be on leash so that's so that's another reason two dogs makes more sense but I don't know I mean Brian looked into this it's it's just another motion at when we get to that point is it going to be two is it going to be three yeah at this point it's a proposal we have that conversation just Jennifer I Jennifer Hillary again this was the main issue why I came tonight to speak so I did just want to speak quickly uh although you're not voting a few points I wanted to make in addition to what was enclosed in the letter that I uh circulated to chair more and was signed by over 50 individuals in our community and that was just by Word of Mouth we would lose the stewards of our land if we do not permit individuals to walk their jobs in some portion of that land and I really appreciate the suggestion that perhaps there's a happy medium perhaps we uh limit the number of dogs as was suggested at their Meadow maybe we keep them out of the Meadowlands like it's being restored but allow them in the Woodlands we increase signage to protect the vernal pools and the nesting Birds just like they do at the beaches I think there's a happy medium to make those without dogs feel safe and Empower those with dogs to do right by the space and I really encouraged this body to think about that because although you have no requirement to go to the public and provide notice this commission exists by a bylaw in our town those vas are voted on by town meeting members um you're appointed by select board members for are elected officials so I think and I know all of you and some of you personally you want to do right by our community as a whole which includes um you know reaching some compromise and and making a lot of people making this space accessible for a lot of people and I think the work that you've done uh shows you want people to come there with The Pavilion the gardens hosting porch Fest so let's not lose our eyes in the forest dog walk people who walk their dogs are there multiple times a week as Susan mentioned we've removed a huge metal piece I'll send you a photo we saw the illegal hunting stand again I was also involved in an owl rescue in the Town Forest this spring my dogs bound the great horned owl and we helped rescue these two baby owls only one Survivor unfortunately and your dog was not off the trail when it found this the dog the dog was on the trail it didn't run into the woods and find the owl the owl was very close to the trail it was only four feet that's from the TA Trail so i' really love us to think about an intermediary step before we go to the no dogs Point thank you so much can I ask you a question yes so why is bare Meadow so important when we're not this is not a townwide policy that we're you know talking about here but it's it's bare Meadow and there's other stewards it's not that we need the dogs I mean I think we're balancing you know habitat with you know some sort of fragmented habitat if if the dogs are allowed in any part of bare Meadow I me that's what I heard tonight um but why is be meow so important when there's when the commission isn't even thinking about um closing off any other property that they own to dogs because I love fa Meadow I think the 51 people who are on that letter Love Fair Meadow I go and identify wild flowers when I go there I try to be a steart my children are stewards as a result of me bringing there with our dog they've been involved in cleanups there let's create a relationship between that land and dog walkers and when I say dog walkers I mean residents walking their pet there let's create those relationships and care because when we have people invested in that space and educated about it that's when we're going to reap the benefits but eliminating people from doing a passive or maybe you're not going to say it's passive but doing a recreation activity like enjoying it with their pets it's just going to make people feel like they've been eliminated from you know having ownership over that space and being able to contribute to its well-being which I try to do I know Susan tries to do clearly people who don't own dogs try to contribute to its wellbe too but there you're going to eliminate people who go there when they can't go with their dogs so I just urge you to consider a trial of some median I cited the trustees uh work on this issue they have a they use three great words for and I can't remember them off hand but there are models that we can use okay I follow up on that chff please so I understand your connection to Bare Meadow clearly um but have you tried other of the conservation areas have you tried perching Woods absolutely Brian and and you know Susan and I go to Kirin Woods I go to town Forest I go to Bar Meadow I go to other neighboring towns I like the variety and I'm not going to go you know part of me being a good dog owner is bringing my dog to places he can experience new sense and I feel safer as I mentioned at the last meeting I do I don't want to be alone that safety concern is not in that study but for me that's part of it although theoretically one of the things we're talking about perhaps treating the metal part of it differently than the the woods and the Wetland down there not decided obviously but potentially so if in fact that were to happen and you didn't have access to the field anymore then the wooded area with some Wetlands is very similar similar to some of the other conservation areas we have what's unique about bare Meadow is the meal land even though it's uh cultured whatever they call cultured farmland or grasslands yeah so so cultured grasslands but if that part were off limits then the decision of which woods with some Wetlands you walk in uh you still get variety without having the option of metal part of sorry Brian what what's your question for me well I'm trying to understand don't don't forget about the six veral pools that are out there in that's true the Conservation Commission has its actual jurisdiction alteration is a viol so was just try Chuck is absolutely correct um but I was just trying to explore the possible changing of the bare metal connection to a different one I I grew up in Vermont and we have a piece of property in our town where there are different designated uses for different parts of the property so it is possible it's possible and and I'd like the commission to consider that okay all right I think are there any hands raised yes uh I I see uh Peter Peter Adams Peter right Peter Lennox says that Emily Adams oh sorry yeah sorry yes Emily uh please uh introduce yourself again uh record Emily Adams uh 725 Hail Street um yeah so just to first um my first question is are you able to see the chat responses in the in the group chat we do not have chat on okay come up did you yeah I think I think the chat has no come the B so the the chat uh yeah I don't I don't know what uh is there one in particular that we should look at or could you could you it's it's always better to State your uh chat comment to the commission directly because we're not always looking or that's not an actual way to get your question across to the commission so yeah sorry I just didn't want to interrupt anybody um so just to address the things that put into the chat as we were coming across them um there were just some reactions to some things that were said by the commission um so first uh all the way back to when we were talking about signage and um reach out to the community um would I as a community member be able to post uh on the billboard at the entrance to Bare Meadow when the next meeting is I I so the what's inside the those kiosks are the domain of the trails committee so if you could reach out you could reach out to me and through Kathy Kelly or if you know Kathy Kelly you could reach out to Kathy Kelly directly all right cool yeah I just um I wanted to mention that as a community member the only reason that I knew that this was even happening was because I ran into a very lovely couple who was walking in the woods and had mentioned that this was a thing that was going on and I wanted to make sure that I was part of it um and I know that there's a lot of other people that I know in the community and in that surrounding area who would like to be a part of this discussion and just didn't really have the opportunity to um so that was my first thing um and then I agree with the idea of compromise with having um half of the area available to people who do not want to have dogs be around in that area and to maybe have another area that is dog friendly um I would very much as a mother appreciate if that area um through the woods would stay open to dogs so that when my kid is of age to go to school that we are able to walk to school without walking on busy roads um that's been a really important thing for us that we've been able to have a place to go that um is not on Main Street or havil um where we can walk and enjoy being outside but also to get from our house to school to the elementary school that is the quickest way for us to get there it's very important for us to have a safe place to walk um to get to where we need to go um I also agree um with the person who commented earlier about being bitten I'm so sorry that that happened to her um we have come across aggressive dogs as well and it's even more scary when you have a dog with you um because you don't want to be in that situation and so I was wondering if maybe there could be a motion for someone to like a a way to report repeat offenders of certain violations or people who may have aggressive dogs and maybe ban specific people who are repeat offending or causing damage to the environment um that might be a way to mitigate the environmental harm without um without Banning people who want to use this and enjoy the space you could wrap up because you're over three minutes totally done thank you great we don't have the infrastructure to uh do any of that um policing of this area so suggestions that don't have to do with that would be more helpful full I don't think the town's ready to you know weigh into this dog policy officer you know situation so it would be better to hear friends group something like that that would that would do the policing and um have some sort of responsibility to that action yeah it would certainly be easier to talk to people in the parking lot as they're getting out of their car and tell them no dogs are allowed then to try to catch people in the woods and say this is where you're allowed and this is where you're not allowed um so I understand we can't afford a park ranger that's going to be there in present but are you suggesting that a group of people step up and create a group that'll be the friends of no I I said that that would be more helpful I that's getting a park ranger or getting is like still beyond what this commission can do we can make a suggestion and support that suggestion and send that information to the select board but it's likely to go nowhere I think the most immediate action would be to for anybody that lives in the area to create a I don't know what to call it but maybe uh you know the the the dog patrol a neighborhood Patrol neighborhood Patrol but not secret neighborhood Patrol something where and I'm there a lot and believe you know I've only been there a few times I'm there a whole lot less than someone like Brian who may go there a lot more to check out these properties or I don't know or other people and every time I'm there there's always someone with a bunch of dogs and and there's an issue or there's something going on where there's you know dog bag left somewhere and you know and I'm not straying too far from the trail so I think that if there was a group that you could call and say hey here's a picture this is what happened and you know those people something could be said that you know a friends group that's that's more of an immediate you know solution to this problem but that's a program that doesn't have to be tried specifically at bare Meadow that's a program that could be developed at at another parse actually friend yeah like if every every spot should have their have their own have like a representative I don't know but that's just me thinking out loud I I I also wanted to add I don't think you could here we are just segmenting bare Meadow in larger pieces by you know saying oh the meadow but not the wooded area wooded area with the vernal pools and you know again that's probably trampled more than anything else to be honest with you um but so hold on We're not gonna just have that kind of conversation you can be next um but but I do think we're just segmenting in larger pieces soth I would I suggest that we move on to the next topic if I I think everyone's had a chance to speak multiple times and we've been two hours on this already right I think you're right okay next topic is DPW meeting on June 4th I can be there this time I should be there sounds good thank you we have some requests yes okay what what I do um Town Forest parking lot and trail head number seven um you want to talk to us about that chuck to the party yeah so we're gonna have a party yeah no we're gonna have a dedication uh of that lot five parking area because it's it's substantially complete there's the work is pretty much done and uh that's going to be June 13th at one o'clock Jun 12 13th at o' just changed again oh June 12th and this is a moving Target I expect after three different dates this one might stick so dates so it's at one o'clock and it's at one o'clock uh and then mamore and Brian Bo said that they would if they're available still at this date would uh be talking about this this land uh This Land is supposed to be transferred to the Conservation Commission at an upcoming town meeting and this land was first brought to the select board by myself and by Ana scanland who was here we both did a lot of work on this and we both lobbied a lot for this and it seemed like something to just get the town to understand that we have uh first right of refusal on certain pieces of property in town and that the town should have a conversation about what they want to do with those before it's just arbitrarily thrown away without any kind of discussion because everyone brings a different opinion to the table and so that's what we we started with and what we ended up with just by starting that conversation is a beautiful entrance of the Town Forest and something that people are really happy about now hardly hardly see cars parked where they used to be uh but we're going to get some no parking signs over there soon so they can't park there officially soon but now we have that 16 spot parking lot we have the two handicap we have an entrance into town Forest beautiful that's what I want to say June 13 one o'clock Brian and Martha Moore will be doing the speaking and the rest of you are welcome to come yeah and uh it's a it so it's a Thursday it's a Thursday at Thursday let me also say just to be fair to the rest of the group in town engineering DPW everyone everyone everyone Town managers arenton past has helped out this project uh uh B what's the name of the golf club mebrook meow Brook wonderful they they helped out the path wouldn't wouldn't be there unless they agreed to it so yeah I remember when na came in front of the select board and spoke in front of town meeting and um yeah there was a a lot of discussion about about it but town meeting approved the money to to pay for lot five okay and um yeah so I'm glad to hear it's move to the 13th at 1 pm that's better for me yeah so that's great okay okay um friends in Family Day on June 8th I can be there to help it get set up um I have an obligation in the middle of the morning so I won't be able to be there the whole time is there anybody else who's around on June 8th who can help you don't have to say where you'll be on June 8th just are you available or not a bit waiting for sports schedules to be updated okay um Walter I'm good for first thing in the morning perhaps through 11 noon at the latest 9 is it 9 to 11 9 to 11 okay no the whole thing is but Walter's segment would be 9 to 11 I'm assume I can be there for the duration from 11 to are you g to say the whole time I did last time so besides if if history is any guy is going to rain sometime anyway the rock bow would be there from 9 to three do we know what the actual time frame is for it yet I don't off hand though okay it's it's something like 10 to three or 9 three I think it's 10 to three yeah all right so if Walter's going to do the morning maybe I can come in the afternoon when my midday obligation is done I'll come over at that point so this is the one they have um in the field behind the high school yeah so we need an extension cord for that one pretty long as I recall although I'm not sure with the table and the Booth's going to be the last time the town had people set up booth for U the commissions and Boards so we were responsible for table chairs they put the canopies we brought our own table no I thought they so they we asked for electricity bring a table I think that's true yeah tent no no they provided the canopy right right they're going to give electricity and a canopy no yeah but I the electricity is on a tree way down there and I needed to bring an extension cord that hasn't happened in the past so actually had had to run home and grabb the C because we thought provide electricity meant we'd have it in the booth and we didn't how far away was that like more than 100 feet not more than 100t but my 100 foot extension cord was pretty much at its limit okay so you have that so I I think it would be good to have that on your power it's the same thing happens okay of course that's presuming we have anything we need to have electricity for yeah right all right so um I can bring my 100 foot extension cord and um it would be good to know whether or not we need a table and chairs or whether they provide table and chairs I think they provide a table but we can check into that and I'll get okay I thought they provide the table also and we would bring one to supplement so we we certainly brought chairs you and I each brought folding chairs okay the table I thought I brought table I have a table I can bring do I have a chair or two I double check that yeah then the question is what materials will we have at the booth on the table everything you had from last year obviously and I picked up a bunch of stuff when I was after that that'd be good you got the stickers I'll do an inventory again of whatever is left from the previous bring the map so is all that they have less M printed out that beat up okay okay yeah and if you have a list you can just send it to me so we don't have to do this live okay so just wrapping it up I can come at the beginning drop off what needs to be dropped off and then come back for the app afternoon about the time Walter has to leave so you're on your own maybe for a little bit in the middle I should be able to talk through that okay all right all right and if you guys find out your sports schedules allow you to be there for part of the time it's always nice to have more variety of who's standing behind if you can cover it I go over and get a lunch of some sort and that's I will be the last yeah you Martha yes I have two 100 foot cords and one 50 foot cord so if that's the only reason you're going there in the morning I can bring cords as long as somebody ravs them up and brings them back to me either way um it I would be going past anyway so it just be a question of stopping to drop it off or not I'll put I'll put them in my trunk and we'll see what happens that sounds like a good idea okay all right um lob's pound project you want to tell us about that and are there any bills there are no bills I'll just quickly I I had a volunteer group um Kella Williams Realty grew come out for their red day and we had worked on this for about a month to find a spot where they wanted to clean up so they went down to L Pond found at uh off Mill Street and they did a lot of uh trimming and they opened up the parking lot to probably what it looked like when it was first set up exposed the gravel probably made some more parking for people to get in there and then there's a blind spot right up by the tree they took all that vegetation out there's a huge pile of vegetation that uh unfortunately needs to wait a month for the DPW to pick it up but uh month from now that will be gone and um and uh it was good we had uh we had some uh wood chips dropped off and they spread that along the path so it looks a lot better and then after that will Finch who was here tonight uh finished up the sign which was painted by one of the uh the the team at K Williams they didn't get to finish it all because they had a certain time frame that they were staying and uh I was going to do it on Saturday but we'll took care of it I think the very next day um so it does look good it's still a work in progress thinking about getting a picnic table for that area and maybe some other things but um when I went down there I noticed for the first time I saw a lot of water and it was just stocked with brook trout so uh that may be waning at this point it was several weeks ago but um but uh yeah to see it uh flowing like that was was amazing I hadn't seen that six or seven years anyways that's the report thank you Kell Williams schola was the person I work with from Keller Williams and I can confirm that pile of brush is still there I looked at it yesterday I think yeah okay minutes any changes to the minutes that people need to be made has everybody had a chance to read the minutes yes all right can I have a motion there was one what were the comments that were sent I mean there was just one um on the0 Forest vote where it's 501 is the motion a second motion to close the hearing what have been 5 there was no one that abstained to close the hearing officially I'll change that that's the vote was 5 yeah was 5 Z wasn't it that the vote vote it was they were both 5 z z no the first one was 311 that's correct yeah there's five of us and the next one is 5 Z okay okay I just want to get it right yeah sorry comment done with the motion to approve the minutes for 5824 as amended second Walter talins in favor m in favor in favor Andrew drien in favor in favor Martha Moore in favor looks like we're at the end okay and it's not even 9:30 but we didn't accomplish much we did a lot of talking did you note start that it was after 7:05 708 7:08 okay we started at 708 and we um approved the minutes um and that was by a vote of 500 no six 1 two 3 4 5 6600 approved the minutes okay can I have a motion to adjourn motion to adjourn ran at 9:25 seconded by Andrew driven okay thank you all in favor unanimous all right thank you everyone good night you for hanging in there all right bye now bye Walt e e