##VIDEO ID:5us4K2o5sVs## e e believe okay ready Matt yep I'd like to call to order the October 21st kilum School building committee to order and we'll do a roll call vote because we have a lot of members um remote Pat here Sean here John yes Chris here Kirk here Ed here Greg here and Nancy is not g to make it tonight so uh quick review of our agenda um we'll have public comment liaison reports we'll have an OPM update with financials and um a report on MSB a report we will talk about chapter 149 and 149a and have a potentially have a vote and then we'll have um a designer update a review of the um PSR comments from the msba we talk about the community meeting uh on that's on Wednesday and we'll have a sustainability update um we're actually not going to talk about the warrant but we'll bypass that when we get there approval of Prior meeting minutes and then any future agenda items so we'll start with any public comment Jackie any public comment on anybody with their hands raised online no on Zoom okay thank you okay we'll go to Lea's on reports anybody want to take a shot at a Leah's report I'm good all right um uh anybody online with aa's on Report Greg says can you put the video on in the room the video on can't see the video we're seeing the uh screen share instead of video from the room could I just make a comment which I can't think of a better place to put it I never received any response to my comments on the geotechnical report your response to LBA I I sent a response on to yeah to was that recent no this way way way way back and I never got any feedback from them and it was promised we talked about this at two three meetings ago about we never got a response I never got a response and I still haven't got a response so um does that ring a bell Jen yeah I will follow up on that thank you may maybe it could could be put as an attachment to the next meeting agenda or something like that so we all get a copy of the response or you know I don't care which way it is as long as we get response it wasn't there was nothing really of sub substance in there um a little bit but not you know noing by any means all right I have it as a comment to put on our next agenda item as well okay we moving right along um to the OPM update financials we'll jump back to the sharing screen here but um hopefully people will still be able to see you on the side maybe yeah we can see you now just I think the camera was turned off before perfect thank you all right um so we're going to go through the OPM financial reporting and the msba report which is our typical um process that we have here um so one of the things that did come up uh we we met with the msba um just recently we were working on getting some questions answered on uh what we call a brr which is a budget revision request so some of the changes that we've made some of the Amendments and things like that that you've provided for us and for the design team we just have to submit those to the msba when we did that one of the things they noted to us is that if you you may remember previously we had had a an architect I'm going to zoom in here a little bit here we had the architect feasibility study line we had the OPM feasibility study line we had environmental inight and then we had other project costs in addition to that we were carrying the balance of the contingency down under owner's contingency and that's typically what I I've been doing but what the msba said is in this early phase they really only have those four first four cost codes so what they asked to do was to move the funds that were shown under contingency into the other project cost line so we've done that tonight and I'm going to show you the budget adjustments in a minute but what you can see here is we still have sorry an overall budget of $2.2 million here um that's that has not changed and what we're showing here is that the majority of that money that was shown as contingency last time is shown in this column if I scroll up so you can see that that's called uncommitted cost so that's that's that's money that we haven't committed to anything yet so it's really showing it as contingency but just on the line item if that makes sense to everybody so uh that that's really just to be consistent with the msba paperwork so what did we have to do in order to to make that adjustment we had to move the money up on the original budget but we we have been doing budget adjustments internally and if I go to the next page you can see the new budget adjustments that we had to do so basically previously we had taken $50,000 from contingency and now we we basically moved that back to contingency and have taken it out of the other uh cost line item basically so anything that we took out of contingency is now being taken out of that other cost line item basically so rather than deleting what we did before we kept what we had in there and we reallocated again so that it's a you can follow along and kind of follow your way through if you were looking at last month and this month so hopefully that makes sense I'm happy to answer any questions but the the four new adjustments that we're showing here are all adjustments just to account for that there was there was no other adjustments here this month it was really just to to to get those ProPay codes uh in line with what the msba was looking for all right right so that that's what we have for Budget adjustments what we have for expenditures uh this month is we have three invoices uh sorry uh three line items for LBA it's actually one invoice but it's again three different cost codes and then we have one from colar here and and those are are typicals those were sent over uh to Matt's office a couple weeks ago maybe maybe week week and a half ago now um and those will be We'll be asking for those to go into the to the the the payment process basically any questions I do have the actual invoices if anybody wants to take a look at them they were in the packet uh that was sent last night as well I'm actually that that that's what we're sharing here um the next section I have here is just continuing to monitor our cash flow so I'll zoom out here just a little bit we have the OPM we have the designer and Consultants FF construction contingencies um I will be adjusting this contingency to move it into that other category which is basically falling in underneath uh the these first two columns here but we did show it over here just again kind of a baby step to move in there um what we are showing right now is we were projecting potentially almost 1.2 million to be spent as of today uh we've only spent about 800,000 of that um you can see in this contingency column there's a large number of contingency items that we just haven't really spent we haven't needed to um whenever we do a cash flow we always assume that we're going to spend the full budget even though hopefully we don't right but you always project that you are so so that's what we're doing there and and also I think we might be a little under where we were projecting our budget so we just been a little more frugal with that so so Mike when you on the contingency you said you're going to move it out of that column into the like is it going to go equal or is it how does it so if I go back to that cover sheet the the summary page um the other project cost kind of falls under administrative so um where that will fall is actually under this FFN in miscellaneous so we'll just slide it all over here so it won't actually you want you're not adding them to the other two yeah fine just curious is where going to go yeah great question all right and then graphically we're just showing that you can kind of see in general we're kind of on the same general trajectory that we were at were just uh not spending all that contingency so that's good um other than that I do have the the invoices here we we do also have an amendment that we had sent forward um for LBA um it's a small dollar value it's $2,700 so if we read the LBA contract they're allowed to Bild for reimbursables this was for for making um uh presentation boards and things of that nature so while they're allowed to build it we didn't have a line item set up for them to build to so this is basically just adding that line item in for for work that they've already done um what we did talk about is hopefully going forward we can kind of project that ahead one of the suggestions I've made with several of my districts is that it might make sense to even give a $10,000 line item or something in there so that these reimbursal can be built against that as as things come up because often what happens is you're having community meeting or something and you say hey Jenny can you print that out and and I need it on a you know a big board and I need four copies of it or something like that and it's a little bit of a last minute thing so it might be something worth considering uh we did not present that this way tonight but we could certainly bring something forth at at the next uh committee me uh meeting if that makes sense you do for schematic design yeah so I I think on this one here um this was submitted by Shirley uh again I I it was 2,7 5394 and if it would be okay it would probably be good to have a vote to approve that so that we can get that into the system so C on a different page we'll do all those votes at the same time oh sure yeah y all right and I think that's so it's the the the documents I have supporting here it's the call your invoice it's the LBA invoice and then the LBA amendment number nine those are the those are the three documents that we have have as part of the package and then from there I I'm going to go to the msba report so oh okay yeah I can I can go to that after so I have um LBA amendment number nine and call yours invoice 20910 and lb's invoice what do we so let me give you the numbers it's call your's invoice 98826 the total on that is $1 16,8 70 the LBA invoice is the 20910 it's a call your invoice I'm sorry no no there's a call your cover letter on that but it's a it's an LBA invoice okay and the total of that is $ 71,2 180 but it is broken down into three uh different activities schematic design traffic and and soils testing and then and then and then the LBA amendment number nine which is a commitment for 2753 94 so I have LBA invoice 20910 I have I have three L LBA 98826 and LBA amendment number n no callers was the 98826 thank you you want me to take a pass at this thank you um I have it go go slowly make a a motion to approve Collier's invoice number 98826 um LBA invoice number 2091 and um LBA amendment number nine second second by Chris any discussion we don't need a amount and those right just just the just the invoice is fine yeah we can I mean we can put the we can put the amounts in problem that was the max mik pass I didn't want to tax you Pat I just was checking just making sure we're compliant um okay so we will have a vote Pat yes Sean yes John yes Chris yes Kirk yes Ed yes Greg yes and Carla yes so the motion passed excellent thank you Mike I think there's a um the cover letter you put on lb's invoice you referen the invoice twice in in one place I think you have the wrong invoice number if you want to just okay we'll make a correction on that it's probably just a copy paste from last month but actually shows up in three places and two places it's listed the right number so that's what was confusing car thank you thanks for I'll definitely get that over we we'll get it over for an update to you Matt thank you all right so the msba monthly report um this is the the report that we send off to them every month uh we like to give that to you for for reference um most of the information there is basically the information that we just shared with you with the financials um as we get into construction there will be more information about activities ongoing and things of that nature but um I'm happy to review anything that anybody has any questions on but I wasn't intending to spend a whole lot of time on that um one of the things we do have in there is the schedule and one of what we did for everybody's tonight again this is very small but if you are able to zoom in on it you can kind of see we've highlighted in yellow basically where we are today through the end of the year so that you can look down graphically and see where are we where are we coming into we're coming into this section here which is really the msbb PSR review getting into the schematic design getting the msba board to improve the PSR and then working towards SD cost estimates and things of that nature so that that is consistent with what we're going to be getting into in a little bit um when Jenny gets up she's going to give a much better detailed uh breakdown of the activities we're actually doing currently but just again this is something that the msba is looking for an overall master schedule and we're providing that to them monthly and we wanted to share that with you and if there aren't any other questions I think the next section that I was going to move to was going to be talking about construction delivery methods 149 versus 149a so um I mentioned to Carla at the beginning uh right before the meeting started tonight that some of this might be very basic especially for SE several of the members of this committee uh but we did want to give a a a presentation that kind of talks about the pros and cons of each not just for for the committee but for the the general public as well so if people have questions hopefully this will help uh uh answer some of those questions that they may have do you want to take this out of order so I I think what I'd like to do is I'd like to present this um if we decide that it's right to take a vote I I would suggest maybe waiting until we get through the design part because we are going to talk a little bit about sustainability tonight and we're going to be looking to have a meeting with uh the geothermal Brain Trust and I I think that discussion might have some impact on this so uh and maybe as we get into it I I'll I'll say hey this is where it might come in all right so um just to give a little bit of background here um for a long time in the state of Massachusetts there was one construction delivery method it was chapter 149 um people know that as lump sum or design bid build um and that was really the option the only option we had and then um in the early 2000s the the legislature decided that they wanted to have an a different a sec a second option and in 2004 they they approved um what we call chapter 149a construction manager at risk CM at risk or CMR you abbreviate that a lot often times um it it's applicable to projects that are greater than $5 million in construction um the one thing that with that is you do have to petition the state to ask for permission to you that that delivery method I think that that was something that was more important important early on it's kind of a rubber stamp now you know in general you you submit it they they look at it and as long as the Project's over five million and the committee has voted on it there's not a lot of back and forth on that anymore but I think when it was new it was a checks and balances system that they wanted to make sure that the municipalities or uh the districts that were using that actually understood what they were getting into basically so to talk a little bit about uh each of the of the the items and again if anybody has any questions please jump in interrupt me ask me questions but uh chapter 149 is the traditional method um you know one of the keys of chapter 149 uh design bid build you design it first then you bid it then you build it so the the documents have to basically be 100% done um the the bid is awarded Ed to the uh pre-qualified uh lowest dinner so there is a pre-qualification process um DeCamp certification is required for the general contractors it's also required for the filed subcontractors um just so people understand filed subcontractors there's certain trades that the state ask to bid directly in general I'd say it's about a 50/50 split half of it's the general contractors's non-filed sub work and half of it is the contractors some jobs it's 6040 some jobs it's 4060 but if you say roughly about 5050 is is is your your kind of typical split on that um Mass General law does require us to pre-qualify General Contractors and filed subcontractors if the Project's over 10 million and our project will be over 10 million so we will be doing that um the the contract is based on a lum sum amount and the last note I have here is is less less technical but more just for uh understanding if the work is in the documents the contractor owns it if the work isn't in the documents and you need it then it's going to be a change over to the contractor so uh it's always good to have tight documents and L LBA is going to do that no matter what but um you know we do have that that just you know that clarification that people understand that that that's that's maybe the risk that you're taking on on this side is that you're you're you've got documents complete and hopefully you know as long as they're complete we're good can you just um touch base on who does the pre-qualifications sure so what we'll what we will do is we will get to a point where we're ready to go out to pre-qualification so um my team will actually draft a pre-qualification uh requests request for qualifications there's typically two different ones they almost are exactly the same but one is geared towards the general contractors the other is geared towards the filed submits those get submitted out at the same time uh usually they have them for about 3 weeks and they come back in and then they're evaluated by the pre-qualification subcommittee now who's the pre-qualification subcommittee it's one member from my team which will be more than likely Shirley one member from lb's team I don't know if that will be you Jenny or probably Jenny and then there's two members from that are voted on by the committee usually committee members but we have had where a facilities director or somebody like that would have been you like you might ask Joe Joe to participate say even though he's not a Committee Member but it's two members from from the district one from us and and one from them I will tell you in general we do the heavy lifting like we're going to provide the documents to everybody everybody in the uh pre-qual committee can review them but as far as making the calls for all the um reference checks and all that stuff between LBA and colar we take the majority of that again if anybody on the subcommittee wants to do that that work we're happy to let them help out but um we typically do that we we organize it all we bring it back we we review that and basically it's a scoring system of 1 to 100 uh you need to be a 70 to pass uh if you're in the 70s or lower we're probably going to take a real hard look at that to make sure that we're we're reviewing it accurately I me we review all of them accurately but anything that's in that range often might uh elicit a protest and we want to make sure that we've got ducts in the row you know in general and all of that but uh it's a process that we I would usually say we like to kind of earmark maybe three months for it we can probably do it in two but um for example I'm doing it on in another District right now we got all the packages and and I'm sure Pat will be shocked but we only got one elevator file submitter and legally we have to go back out and ask for it again sh you got one well uh that's that's kind of the the status quo over the last decade or so that you you you might only get one or you might not get none often times we get one the first time we get none the second time and then we're allowed to then assign that work to the general contractor so then it would become part of the the non-filed side that 50/50 split is now you know 48 52 or something like that basically but because of the little things like that we always want to have a little uh contingency built into our schedule thank you great question all right so now looking at chapter 149a so it's a CM at risk uh process so I I mentioned this already we have to go to the uh um Office of the uh Inspector General get approval in advance it's literally sending them an email I mean a letter uh it's almost a form letter just saying that you know the district has voted to proceed under this um process what we do have to do is we have to wait until the msba approves us we get our funding and the msba gives us the official go-ahead to get into design development and the reason why I mentioned that is part of the benefit of of bring a CM on is having them on as early as possible so that they can give the maximum benefit but it's a challenge because we have to wait till we get all the approvals from the msba the funding and everything like we couldn't send that letter out today say we have to wait till after that DD period we get the letter out to them it does usually take about a month to get a response back I think it's been getting a little bit quicker more recently but it does take a little bit of time so it's always that challenge of doing that and then starting that process and what is that process it's it's a pre-qualification it's the selection everything so you're trying to get them on as early as you can but it it really I'll say the best you can do is probably halfway through design development if if you were doing that um so the the CMR is retained early in the design process to provide expertise on budget schedule phasing Logistics constructability so that's the benefit that you're you're that's one of the benefits you're trying to get by bringing a CM on is having them on earlier but like I said there's a little bit of a challenge there that we probably can't get them on before the middle of design development um the CM is Select based on qualifications and then uh with a fee and then the negotiation pursues uh proceeds after that so in other words when they're submitting their package to us they submit a qualifications based package and then they submit a sealed package which includes their fee their General conditions but none of the other costs it's really their cost to us and we rank them based off qualifications first and then we open up the the the pricing packages and then we if we feel that there's an adjustment needed you would make that adjustment typically the adjustment really shouldn't be done off of price the the one exception is if say you had four CMS and the the one that you picked as the most preferred was double the price of everybody else then then that might weigh into your your your factors or something like that but typically that that process is supposed to be qualitative not quantitative um so um Mass General Law requires pre-qualification of trade contractors still apply so we talked a minute ago about General Contractors with filed subcontractors for whatever reason they changed it from filed subcontractors to trade subcontractors it's the same exact uh trades it's the same exact people that basically do that but it's filed sub versus trade uh it's just the the terminology they use so that's what we do there um you have a greater ability to have early packages allowing construction to start prior to full completion of the design I say greater ability you do have the ability to do early packages when you have a general contractor on board in fact I'm doing it right now in Whitman we're doing an early package to secure switch gear in a generator because we know they're long lead items so we're just getting getting the clock started on that a little bit sooner about six months before we get the GC on that's a very easy one for us to do sometimes if you have a large site work or a large demolition or something like that you can do an early package before the the general contractor comes on but typically those early packages are completely separate from the general contractor so we have a contract to supply the generator and Supply the switch gear and we are handing it over to the electrical contractor so there is a little bit of coordination there but it's completely separate from the contract we go with the general contractor the difference with the CM is if we have them on early at that beginning at that middle of design development we could actually have them bid out those early packages and the site contractor would be work they could hire the site contractor that's ultimately going to do the whole job to do that early work and and start that early work work earlier so there that's one of the advantages of see at risk is that if you have a strong need for early packages it starts to make you think that that might be you know more advantageous than the the 149 I'm not saying it's it's always the right choice but just it depends on what those early packages are like I said in Whitman early package was switch gear and Generator pretty cut and dry pretty easy to do and they're going 149 with a uh that early package is actually chapter 30b which is a whole another another uh procurement method so generators are also delayed so we we had talked with our con with our uh design team over there and and the plumbing electrical fire protection designer there said if we're ordering the switch gear we might as well order the generator as well we actually had discussions about air handling units and things like that and they didn't feel that it was needed for the for that one um or at least not at this time but it was those are the two things that we decided that was uh something worth considering um so you do have a greater ability to have wider options on early packages just because you've already got the the the the the CM the construction manager on board and they can start doing some of those early packages um those early packages can sometime be done even before the documents are 100% again depending on on that there's a risk reward there right you you're starting earlier so you you're you're getting a head start on it but if you're putting the concrete in and then you're doing steale coordination later there might be some some rework that you have to do because of you know coordination wasn't 100% when you start of the concrete um and then last but not least the CM at risk um whenever you see our list like when we were showing our financials earlier we have two lines at the bottom one is construction contingency and one is owner's contingency those are contingencies that you control under CM atrisk there's a third contingency which is built into their price their price is called the GMP guaranteed maximum price but that includes a contingency in there now they typically have to ask us for permission to use it still so we still have the ability to verify and make sure it's being spent properly but that's to fill in some of those gaps because you got them maybe going before the documents are 100% do you have a um like an overall number of how much um chapter 149a costs their costs are more than chapter 149 we do it's actually going to be on a slide coming up so um a couple of clarifications this was something I got from a a colleague um a lot of times people hear chapter 149 and they they hear lowest bidder it's low bid it's lumpsum it's low and I just want want to make sure that people understand it's the lowest responsible eligible qualified bidder you know there's a qualification process that we're going to go through and we're going to make sure that the people are doing like I'm a I'm a I've been in the construction business for 30 years if I started a company tomorrow I couldn't bid on this project because I don't have that history of doing hundred million projects right so even though I maybe have done them as an OPM or it hasn't been you know Mike Carol's name on on on The Ledger so have to build my way up there so there's a good process that the state does managing this and and when we work through that so when people hear that lowest bidder it is the lowest bidder but it's the lowest responsible bidder and I just want to make sure that everybody understands that and then the other part of this is um there there's been a question if we do pre-qualify somebody and then something happens after the pre-qualifications are we quote unquote stuck with that person and the answer the short answer no again you always have the right to re-evaluate those but you you've got to have some pretty concrete evidence of why you would have a reconsideration on that so it just those are two things again that when people I'll say are in favor of construction manager at risk these are two things that we hear a lot of times and I just want to kind of maybe dispel those before the questions asked answer the question so um so that's what I had there um what I try to do is this probably could be a lot more in detail but I tried to do kind of a comparison kind of one to the other just so that people had general idea so um uh chapter 149 again we have a general contractor there dbb is designed bid build chapter 149a we have a CM at risk so the first one it's a more familiar process and we do have pre-qualification of both General Contractors and fil submitters the CM at risk the Builder is the they say he's part of the team starting in design so they're on a little bit earlier again we have a pre-qualification of the CM at risk and the trade subcontractors so not not a substantial difference there other than the the timing of when you're bringing somebody on um looking into the next section here we have um for the general contract of the design bid Bill chapter 149 we have to have the documents fully complete so you're waiting till the documents get 100% um they're bid and then they then they're bid it's a linear process uh reduces the opportunity for early packages not eliminates again redu just we have to look at those early packages and there's really no input from the Builder during the design process so you do have a very talented design team and you have an OPM and we have the the knowledge of this group here to help us with Logistics and things of that nature so we can continue to work through that but you don't have the actual Builder and I I'll tell you if we came up with Logistics I could come up with one plan Jenny would come up with another one Pat would come up with another one you know great you know everybody that you know would come up with their own version of it doesn't mean any one of them is wrong it just people have different ideas different ways of go about it so um on the CM side if you have them on early they can help with the logistics they can help with with that and and it's going the way that they want to go now sometimes they want to do something that isn't so good for the students or and and again it's not that they're not paying attention and the students it's just that they're looking at the the construction side of it that's why you have us there as well so we're always going to be we're always going to be working on that um there's a greater ability to Fast Track the construction with early packages again if it's needed um you know I I think um where was I recently I my daughter was playing volleyball recently and it's a new high school and they blasted like 75 fet of ledge to to build the school and that's something that they probably took a long time and they could have done an early package maybe to to get going on the ledge uh I think it was I forget where it was near walam it was out on 128 belt um but anyway there there's opportunities for that um going into the next section um before you yes sir is it true that um design B build is you have more control or more certainty of the project getting done on time than with the uh the other method 149a um my experience that design B build is you can really you know persuade the contractor that there here's the deadline you got to stick with it because the liquidated damages very much difficult very much more difficult to do it when it's um where you're negotiating prices with all kinds of Trades constantly constantly const nobody's responsible for overruns you know people get in each other's ways and nobody's responsible and in the end the project goes overtime but nobody's responsible for it is that true or is it just my experience so I I think what I would say is from my experience CM at risk public and CM at risk private is maybe a lot different um C at risk public has a risk there just similar what you you mentioned John but I think the key to that is um we mentioned the GMP that's the guaranteed maximum price so on a private job that guaranteed maximum price is often done before the documents are even 100% you you you're negotiating it you have some qualifications in there and you finalize that guaranteed maximum price and now the contractor owns that he has contingency in there but he owns it and he's moving forward what I've seen on the public jobs in times I I I was working on a project uh with the with the contractor once and my job with him was lumsum uh 149 but he had another job that was 149a and I said oh what was the final number on that he goes we haven't finished it yet I said what do you mean he goes well we haven't signed the GMP yet I said aren't you in punch list oh and he was literally in punch list and hadn't signed the GMP so I will tell you my experience uh Sams try to delay that as long as they can because the longer they delay that the more they've bought out the less risk they have and and the more risk you have so what I would tell you is that the key to try to minimize that risk John is that we make sure that the CM understands that we are going to establish a GMP and we're going to do it as early as as as as reasonable typically it's going to be after you get your your trade subcontractor bids in and they've done a lot of their work they know where all the other trades are coming in so they really can't establish it then they like to try and say oh I want to wait till I buy everything out but we I I usually recommend no we're going to we're going to push forward a little bit quicker than maybe what they would typically do because once you sign that GMP the dollars are locked in and the time is locked in the time is locked in yes now there's always a chance for change orders unforeseen conditions with either option but yeah just as an example when you sign the GMP or if you have a lump sum if we come along and we say you know we want to change this we want to change something that's going to cost more in both situations there would be a change order yes in a lump sum there would be a change order of the contract see them at risk there would be a change audit to increase that GMP yes um even though there's a they they're holding a contingency they would still increase that contract that's a situation where we come along we say hey we want to add a little you want to do do whatever we want to upgrade this want to upgrade the tile and all the bathrooms cost 50 Grand that's going to be a change in both situations 100% so when we say guaranteed maximum price it's guaranteed maximum price for that project that scope you know we're going to add a a football field to the to the project you know that's a that's a a very easy thing that that's a different project now it's so that would be an increase on either on on on either option that's absolutely correct even even to pass point though even if it was probably going to be within their contingency it's still right they would increase that because they want to hold that contingency for any problems that they have yeah with with a school it's a little different because you know the kids go back in September every year and therefore there is a there is a hard deadline with a school with many projects the deadline is people talking about about it as being hard but it really isn't there much more flexibility to go over but with a school it's very different you've got to have that whip to get the contractor to finish before September um my experience is it's much easier to do with the design build the other thing to keep in mind uh on that on that note is that if you did decide to bring a CM on if you especially decided to do early packages you're spending money before you finalized the total project so while you're getting Advantage you're maybe saving schedule there's that potential risk that it comes in over budget or you know you you don't know at the time that you're releasing that um so again my my project that I mentioned earlier we're buying the switch gear we we could come into an issue down the line where the over whole project is over budget but we're we're checking that doing checks and balances with the estimators and and the designers and everything and and you know we're doing everything we can to mitigate those those risks but with the CM you are potentially spending more money up front before you really know where the final price is going to be um so I think I'm into the third section here lowest responsible eligible bidder qualitate quantitative cost drives it so when I say cost drives it that's because we've already done the pre-qualification so once we've done the pre-qual ification now at that point it really is the cost that's driving it there uh typically lower initial price and lower final price um initial project cost is known before construction starts that's what I was just mentioning I I I I thought I had it in here but I didn't see it when I was reading through quickly um preferred uh on the CM side the preferred vendor is selected qualitatively so looking at the the the the the the firm as a whole looking at the team that they're providing looking at the services that they're projecting um typically higher initial price uh typically more expensive than GC option really two of the things that are driving that one is that you are bringing them on earlier so they're providing additional services that the you know in theory that the the CM isn't that the GC is not so if they're on for an extra eight months there's a cost associated with that um but the other part of is I mentioned that there is a contingency within their price that you know we we tend to see that that helps you know that does tend to drive the price up a little bit and I do have a slide on that and then uh price is not finalized until the GMP is complete again you're going to have us doing checks and balances that whole way through uh we will be working with the CM they will be providing estimates and if they say it's X and it's X and it's X and then we come to bid day and it's or you know GMP day and it's you know X Plus 20% then they're going to have a lot of explaining to do but um and then last but not least uh in general I think the more straightforward a project is the more simple a project is the more logical it 149 tends to be the more complex a project is if it's a addition renovation occupied you know you know multiple phase you know 10 phases or something like that it tends to go more towards that CM side because you're getting that CM on board again that Logistics we can come up with Logistics which absolutely works but when the contractor that we have or the CM that we have comes on inevitably there's going to be something in that Logistics that they want to do differently so if you have them on earlier it kind of helps with that process make sense all right so this was the question you had a little while ago Carla um I I want to ask about MSB reimbursement with the difference of the two sure we getting into the med grade so this this let me run through this and then I'll answer that question so I I said this is from the msba website the document was titled range from 2022 to 2024 but when I actually looked at it some of them went back as early as 2020 I didn't want to cancel them on I wanted to give you a bigger sample some this so we we kept them all in there so they were showing 37 projects um 16 of them were GC 21 of them were CMR um the average construction cost for the GC was 577 the average construction cost for the CMR was 624 I did try to take a look at um projects from 2020 to 22 and then 23 and 24 because there you know costs are going up substantially and the number of projects of each were about you know it wasn't enough of a difference that I wanted to separate this out into more detail but I can certainly provide that if you want um just a couple of the other things to notice here is the average sea uh GC design bid build project was $91 million and 158,000 ft the average CM project was $130 million 210,000 square feet so again the bigger and more complex projects look like they're leaning towards CM at risk um and then last but not least just looking at the the 2020 uh to 22 and then the later what what what I noticed if if I had gone back early and Pat might might kind of be able to weigh in on this as well if if you look at projects from like 2012 to 201 15 16 there was a lot more like like CM risk was newer and I saw a lot more projects going that way and then I think I kind of saw it swing back the other way more recently so I think what we saw early on is that there was a lot more project going seeing at risk even if it didn't necessarily need to and now I think districts are being more prudent to look at the both both options and pick the right one for their project so um that's what I'm seeing is that it four years ago it was it was twice as many cm at risk jobs as there were was GC but over the last two years it was you know seven of one and seven of the other if the msba project seems to hitting it seems to be hitting a steady state where it's about 5050 that's what I'm saying exactly on the municipal side it's probably much more dominated by Design bid build correct on the by Municipal I mean fire stations police everything in the town except a school which is probably not as many buildings as there are schools and Carla you you asked a question about msba reimbursement yeah so it used to be that the msba would give you an additional reimbursement for see at risk uh they no longer do that so uh that was the again maybe I can get you the exact date but it was about four years ago maybe five years ago that they they stopped giving that when I was doing two two projects in brain tree the first project actually went see him at risk and they got the point and then the next project actually went design bid build and they didn't uh they weren't going to get the point anyway but they didn't go it and in the the scenario here um the 577 versus $624 per square foot it's all kinds of things that could go into that that's an 8% difference but from a reimbursement standpoint um both school since since all those numbers are probably in excess of the mba's cap the the dollar value of reimbursement is probably the same so like both of those schools are are getting like $300 a square foot reimbursement so the the the differential is actually on a percentage basis kind of exacerbated right so that that premium is all on the on all it's not like you're it's not like you're getting some more reimbursement because the premium's higher because you're you're in excess of their minimum well they maximum yeah I actually my my experience my I would say that the the cost difference is higher than 8% yeah we we've looked at that a little bit and and back in the days 2012 to 2015 and we saw it being more 10 to 20 closer to 20% in some cases but that's not surprising because the the CM risk it gravitates towards the more hairy projects right the difficult projects um that's the reason for it is you have a very complicated project that's the direction you go therefore it's going to cost more of the square foot probably when we looked at it we called out all the renovations just looked at new construction we did okay so I will say the msba does have a lot of good information on their websites um unfortunately a lot of it is in PDF form so to try and kind of take it and do manipulation uh Shirley actually is reaching out to them to see if we can try and get some of that in in like an Excel file so that we can try and find various ways to do a better comparison on that but uh it certainly um to both John and Pat's points there's a million different ways you can look at these no no two projects are the same but you you try and look at Trends uh you know but you don't see any problem with early packages for like um Cy prep or drilling Wells with designed to build so I I think I think the the the the challenge there or the trick there is to if you were doing Wells for example and we're going to be talking about that in a little bit that's why I was suggesting we might not want to might table the vote until after we have that but I think if you can work it so that you can get the wells drilled and done and get that guy off site and then have the general contractor come in from that perspective it's just like ordering a switch care it's like what you can't have is you don't want Drilling the wells to then push the general contractor's start date out or or maybe you do maybe maybe maybe you have that understanding that that well drilling is going to take x amount of time and instead of starting a general contractor on this date they're going to start a month later or six months later and what what is the ramifications of that so we'll give you time to complete the documents correct yeah that's obviously the ramification and yeah so we'll be we'll definitely be talking about that yeah I just wanted to add that um our cost estimator we asked him to estimate what the um additional cost would be for CM at risk and he estimated $5 million so that's around 20% 4.7 I just calculated five million five yeah on total it's not 20% it's not 20% of $106 million construction cost 5 million is 5% no who is your cost estimator thank you Peter Bradley he's better at math than I [Laughter] am so that's really it in a nutshell again if there's any other questions I'd be happy to answer them but I think uh I I was trying to give this with enough information that everybody can understand it it looks like uh so May May Lee say two things ahead Le thank you um whichever of these you choose your architect will dutifully do the work um I've done both and um don't have huge opinions other than uh you should think about the parts of the project that are complicated the GE well um and phasing of that may be one of them but I want to also bring up that you're going to have an occupied building on site throughout the process um obviously we're going to try to cordon off the existing school but because of that there's a lot of management that has to go on and while obviously a uh a GC can do that management but it's been my opinion that um that when we work with a CM if they're if they're really uh responsible for a lot of the day-to-day I'm going to say coordination with the owner and management and site Logistics and things like that um that uh usually construction Administration and P this is nothing personal just it's been my experience it's fine is more difficult for the architect with a g with a GC than with the CM because they have a pile of money contingency on the side that they can tap and uh they can take care of things just keep in mind that the management has to be done by somebody and if you're not paying a cm to do it that puts more pressure on the OPM to do some of this uh management the architecture construction and quite possibly turning to the GC to do that management which they might or may or may not want to do and again it is about the complexity of your project and the size of it more than the early packages in the geothermal I'm more concerned about the logistics of the existing school and the occupied safety and all of that on on campus um during all of the hey we're shutting this down we're opening this up we're doing this we're doing that and not so when you go out to a GC they're seeing it for the very first time and they're not planning all that stuff so they come on and all of a sudden they have to plan the world when you work with a CM they're working on it with for months with you and they're planning and strategizing all of those moves if they're doing their job and so it's just a different kind of funnel effect in that way so just keep that in mind um I'm not scared of either one but they do um they do and and but I will say that I believe that the architect has will probably have more work to do with a G GC I know some people have disagreed with that but that's been my experience and it's just work it's management and and a lot more discussion um that's all and and I have a couple of follow I have a couple of follow-up questions about that I guess just one broad follow-up question about that so we've heard about geothermal we've heard about the the the tight uh site and the need to carefully sequence it because in my experience for clients doing construction manager at risk that's one of the real areas where they benefit is exactly what Lee just mentioned where they've got an occupied site or they're doing a renovation where they have to move occupants from one place to another and then back are there other areas that uh would potentially lend itself towards a 149a package versus a standard uh GC 14 9 package um I don't know I we'll ask somebody else that um but I will say I have a different I'm not going to answer your question directly I'm not going to let somebody else answer that but I will actually offer a different um a different suggestion is that maybe um Mike and everybody a strong Clerk of the works or somebody on site who was more management oriented and you know to take care of a lot of this stuff in the old days before the during the SBC before the msba towns weren't required to get an OPM they didn't get an OPM Architects were supposed to be managing all this and Architects aren't the best of managing all this stuff it's almost not their job but they're supposed to think about it I think you're putting a lot I'd like to hear from Mike about what his what their load becomes for doing this kind of work when there is um you know when somebody else is not doing it is their work greatly uh complexified and sorry for not really answering your question somebody should answer it not me Lee maybe I'll try and in in answer it maybe a little more direct I think in general uh the more complicated a project is the the more complex uh the more risks there are the more likely I am to recommend cm rest so if we're doing an occupied Edition renovation job that's multiple phases and we're going to be moving students in and out um I'd be hard pressed to recommend 149 but I will tell you right now I am doing exactly that in Webster so um so it's it's an occupied ad right but what we did in Webster is we brought in modular units 14 classrooms and we moved a whole wing out into that classroom and the contractor has a whole wing and when they're done with that Wing we do a switch around and they go into the middle wing and then the kids come out of the modules go into the new space the middle wing goes into the mod so it's big moves so that made even though it's an occupied renovation it made it simpler because it's big moves it's big chunks and the building lent itself to that the building was literally built as like three separate pods that you could very easily segregate you know often times I'll say say architecturally it's easy to just draw a line and say that's phase one and that's phase two but what happens when you kill phase one and the contractor's in there and you have no heat in half a phase two or you have no electricity or you you didn't didn't realize the the the electric room was in phase one and you got to take it offline to put it into the new location you like there's a lot of different things like that that happen so I I think the more complicated a job is the more likely or the more benefit you get from having somebody helping out early on this project more specifically to Kirk um even so on this project at least we have the existing building being used a line across the site and a new building being done so it's basically you're building the new building keeping everybody away then you move into it demo and then move in so it's not as complicated as Mike just said it's not moving people all over the place we're trying to do it in two shots and that's exactly what I was going to say kind of get in that middle Zone here where you're just trying to make the right decision you know based on what you think but I still think Mike I still think that somebody has to plan all that and I bet you're spending a lot of time working on that absolutely okay yeah I do think that the the site design that we have is the optimum in terms of um separating the existing school from the new school I mean we have it's pretty obvious that uh during construction the access to the site will be for construction will be off havil Street whereas the access to the site for the school will be off child street so there's no mixup there so we can as as they said draw a line on the site and say this belongs to the contractor this belongs to the schools so we we have an Optimum situation in that regard in the way in the way the layout has developed and I think that that was done with intent I think that I think the one thing that I would say that is is going to be challenging it probably doesn't matter which method is but uh from Lindsay's perspective is is parking on site and and and drop off and pick up on site and then having those play areas for the kids during that con those are going to be the you know construction is construction we'll put a fence up around it and we'll we'll we'll handle the problems inside the fence it's those other problems that we want to make sure that we're mitigating or at least minimizing the the effects on on on the staff and the students and and and the General Public and I guess just to follow up I I guess and when we when we have a vote I guess we can talk about this a bit more but I'm just thinking in terms of a Continuum between a very simple design where it lends itself very strongly to 149 the design is pretty simple the the logistics are simple all the way to the other other end of the Continuum where it's very complicated maybe you've got an occupied building all the things we talked about and I guess my question is where do the the construction uh Pros on this committee think we are on that Continuum um I I guess uh I'll chime in on that I think we're I think we're pretty far I I don't think it's terribly complicated um you know it's a new building that's pretty straightforward there's always going to be complications um constructing a new school adjacent to an existing occupied school has been the the modus operandi in Massachusetts for the last 20 years um I know I've been involved with at least a dozen of them and um and they'll be done CM at risk in um design bid build but but most of the time design bid build um the the project size in the in the the appetite of the committee some committees you know would do see them at risk just they want to try something different try that method I think the I think the project lends itself to design bid build um I'm sort of you know that's the world I live in so it's easy for me to say that um you definitely get more services from a CM uh CM I'm sure everyone's seen um one of our neighbors in the paper recently um for not turning over a school on time and not getting kids into the school that was a CM at risk project with a a very highly regarded CM that got to get in there early and do all the planning and pre-pre equipment and at the end of the day they couldn't get the job done uh if we want to have a job that finishes on time and we want to have a successful project the way we do that is by putting together a good set of contract documents which we know LBA is going to uh we commit we we we commit to not changing those documents after we told them to do something if we want to keep costs down and then we work collaboratively with our CM orc our OPM and our architect and we'll have a successful project um I don't see the I I see it as at least a 10% premium and half the subcontractors are the same subcontractors whether you do CM at risk or design bid Bild you're going to get the same four electricians that bid the job and the low electrician is going to do the job so half of the trades are the exact same trades um so I for me it it lines up you know it yeah it's got some complications we see early sight packages where we come into a project and there's things done utilities sight blasting ledge and um and the the logistics of working adjacent to a a um an occupied School those those those projects are done designed and build all the time and there might be a little more stress definitely definitely probably a little easier when you have a CM with a contingency but we do have 15 to20 million in fees between the two of you so I'm sure we can sh we can shake out a logistics plan I agree with Pat on everything you just said Kirk um I think that we're doing a new building and we did this on purpose and we were very careful to build a efficient building off to the side to make this happen to keep it as simple as possible for you and yeah we all we all deal with the stress um and uh just everybody knows that you know I mean you have a committee many of the people on the committee like yourself are construction or developing people you understand that there's going to be hundreds of change orders you know and hopefully they're all small and all that just the way it works because we do our best and uh nobody catches everything and and there's arguments over every little thing but you know that's just the way it goes and I think it'll work out just fine um we're on board I was going to jump in and just second a lot of what Pat said coming from the polar opposite side of of his experience mine's almost entirely in the CM world at risk GMP um but I I agree with everything Pat said I think that conceptually the project is fairly straightforward from a logistics and a separation and a construction perspective I think the completeness of the documents is is a primary interest when you're doing design bid Bill where a CM at risk provides some value and is very hard to tease out of that premium is how much of that premium is actually the CM absorbing risk in the incomplete documents and and completing scope that they are at risk for right and when you're doing the GMP environment um the G the the CM that is at risk that's Financial Risk owns reasonably inferred scope so the documents don't have to be as Complete because they're expected to to carry that risk as part of the GMP there's some inherent Miss scope anticipated expenditure that comes with a GMP that does not exist in a conventional 149 design bid build process but this particular site and to Le Point the nature of the the site orientation building type layout lends itself logistically to a single clean separation between the construction side and the occupied School side and I I I don't think there's any any reason even even considering the possibility of trying to drill Wells early or early package to consider or contemplate 149a and and doing this CM at risk all right answer the couple questions before you move on yeah before I move on and and let Jenny take over um I I did see a couple of questions from uh Karen um the first question I'm going to kind of take him in reverse order here I think but um how do we emphasize responsible when we're selecting our contractor so regardless if it's CM at risk or uh uh or design bid build we have a pre-qualification process so we will we have a pretty standard form that we use but we are allowed to adjust that as needed for for the individual District if there's certain things we want to focus on or things of that nature but what we do typically is we're trying to find contractors have experience with this type of work the size of work the scope of work um have a track record of doing it successfully um one of the things that we do in addition to the general pre-qualification process part of that process is they submit their dcam uh evalu their dcam score if you will and what happens is every contractor that does work in the state of Massachusetts on public work at the end of the job they get rated by by the owner on that job and they get a score and so you can kind of see if if they've got lot L of '90s and 95s they they're doing a really good job if they've lots of U you know 50s then they're really doing a really really really bad job um anything below 70 again is that is or 80 80 70 on on the preall 80 on the BM um anything below 80 is is considered um you know a bad job if you will so um there is a lot of uh information we can get from the state again we do a lot of reference checks and stuff like that we we have lb's team and our team and again the people here that kind of know a lot of the industry and know what's going on and you can use that that knowledge as well so I think uh we're we're in in in a good shape to make sure that we have the the responsible biders but I will let you know last last part of that question is the responsible bidder is like a legal term it's it's actually kind of defined by by the the the the rules and the regulations that are set forth by Mass General law so when we do pre qualifications we talk about how many points for each section and what you have to do to get those points and it's really pretty prescriptive so there's not a lot of um you know um personal input in that it's either they they have four projects that meet the criteria or they don't if they only have three they only they only get you know 75% of the credit things of that nature um the other question Karen you asked was on reimbursement and sorry that I didn't see this this was probably during the uh the the financial presentation you you you you asked if we have an update on the reimbursement to date and um I I can work with with Matt to get you a more specific answer on that but in general I think through um our ProPay submission 4 we had submitted about $550,000 worth of cost round number and about 200,000 of that was eligible for reimburse so that that that's the 45% uh the 45.9 5% calculated against the the the 500 um sorry 252,000 uh the 202 was was minus the payment that was being made at that time so so just again I didn't do the math but I bet it's right about that 46% Sharon just answered oh did she y she said we received um $241,600 so far in msba reimbursements and and she just submitted a reimbursement for um number five covering July through September for 38,1 144 perfect thanks shair I was trying to kind of pull that up on the fly so that's good and Lindsay I I I see you said you're stressed don't worry we we got you [Music] covered all right so um with that if there's no other questions I would suggest that I I think a couple things we are going to be talking about here in a little bit with the geothermal and stuff might affect this so if we're going to consider doing a vote I would ask maybe to hold off until Jenny gives her her uh presentation and then we'll go from there right Jenny Janny feel free to stand or you can come sit too good okay um so just checking in on our schedule here like we do every time um we're the week of October 21st um we are just uh getting started on some of our um programming meetings um with the school to we've been developing the um layout of the the floor plan further and we have some progress to show them some options to show them and um we're still working on setting up uh several of these meetings like instructional technology and AV and security and we finished the um msba PSR review which I will talk about so one of the important things that was included in the um msba PSR comments is they made a determination about which spaces they will um reimburse um so this is a summary of um their decision so they will participate funding and these are all items that we were you know not sure about so they they will participate in funding other parts of the project as well but these were the items that were kind of influx so all 20 classrooms for grades 1 through five um the St room so science Technology and Engineering it's kind of like a maker space um um that the kilum has a similar space currently so they will fund that and the storage room associated with that the specialist offices like literacy math and reading tutor the M MLL classrooms the Adaptive PE space that was a surprise we did not expect that one and the 12 rise prek classrooms they will not participate in funding the extra gym space of um 1,150 Square ft that's enough space for bleachers and then there's a storage room for the W Department um a larger staff lunchroom which is just the same size as the current staff lunchroom we want wanted a smaller one and we didn't think that was going to work um of 187 Square ft um some increases in the admin and guidance area um there's a couple different categories here but um a couple are a larger conference room and larger counseling offices um which we think are needed because of the size of groups that those folks meet with um the big one is the all of the non-classroom um space ass so with rid which we knew and um that's 5,855 ft and then the extended day office and storage 500 squ ft none of this is a surprise um and then um one area one you mened on the positive side right yeah the the only good surprises were on the positive side where we they did agree to fund spaces that we were not sure about and the to PE was really a surprise we didn't we didn't think that they were going to go for that one um and then the flex areas um which are the spaces outside of the classrooms um adjacent to the corridor sometimes we've been calling them the front porch um of the classroom um they said that they would partially fund those re participating um in the funding of 2,000 ft of the 4,800 square fet of those areas um we responded back with an argument um that we kind of came up with between mik and um LBA um that has to do that I was kind of here in the pink um that has to do with um the maximum classroom size that is allowed so they had actually noted that we have smaller classrooms than the maximum size allowed our our classrooms are 900 square ft the maximum is th000 and one of the reasons we did that is to kind of use that extra space for the flex areas but we pointed out in our response that they did not consider the kindergarten classrooms where we also did a similar thing where they allow 1300 Square F feet we made them 1100 square F feet thereby saving 800 square F feet so we've kind of asked them to give us the other 800 fet so every little bit counts and I I feel pretty optimistic though I think it's a reasonable argument yeah so we will see so if that happens then all of the flex area then 2800 would be funded and 2,000 would okay I I saw the difference is 2,800 so just that's a a coincidence yeah okay sorry thank you sorry about that um any other questions about J going back to the um previous slide yeah um can you go back that total is around 5,000 square ft I don't think so sorry I mean my mouth is but sorry 8,000 ft sorry that sounds right so that's about $5 million right something like that what's our 800 8,000 square F feet yeah if you said ,000 Square dollars a square foot is what you kind of say th' be I'm taking it less because you know the general conditions um so it's about $5 million or they're about which they will not reimburse for but most of that is in um The Rise program right which is which we knew anyway that was a conscious decision so there's nothing here which is really of consequences there in terms of what they went no and we've already built our these assumptions actually these this is better than the assumptions that we were working with when we were working out um the total project budget and the town share yeah so um it's only to the better yeah I think when we had done the plugin for the msba for reimbursement I think we had um about almost twice that much as assumed ineligible so again being a little conservative rather be concern on on the budgeting yeah perfect and especially at the beginning when we didn't think rise was going to be first at all so this was great can you just give a quick example of the all noncl classroom Rise program spaces so that's the first floor yeah so it's the admin spaces it's the office for the The Rise um there's a staff lunchroom there are um Specialists like um speech language pathologist um offices there's a physical therapist and occupational therapist that are all providing services to kids there's um a space we call the big room also called like a gross motor room that's an indoor space that's um kind of a rumpus room that they can use in inclement weather or to get several groups of um kids together so we were um under the notion we wouldn't get anything so we've gotten something pretty significant very yeah classrooms yeah the the classrooms um are probably 2/3 of the program yeah for even for rise the only other thing to say on this is that just whenever we're talking square footage is on I think any of these it's net square footage not gross so just I so when people understand that there's a grossing factor that we add to add in to account for some of the storage rooms some of the the the the uh corridors things of that nature stairwells all that kind of stuff those aren't we don't program in that we're going to have X number x square feet for quds you design the rooms and then you figure out what you need for C is and it kind of infills but it's generally about 1 Point 1.5 1.5 is the grossing Factor um Can someone tell me what Karen Karen had a question and I I can see if I can find it see what it was s part of it could you include the answer to rise non-reimbursement space to information on the website just included in the FAQs yep I think so that's not my Jenny on the last slide it says specialist is that supposed to be art music PE or is that actually the tutor and literacy specialist That's the tutors and the literacy art music PE that's all reimbursed um what we question you're thinking of you're thinking of specials so probably these are academic support offices ma tutor reading tutor literacy specialist those guys thank you okay any other questions on the PSR great so next is um I'm just going to give you a brief preview of the material we're going to share at the community meeting we're still working on the material so this is the it's in progress um the topic of the community meeting is site and Community use um so we're going to share uh the current site plan um what the um how the site areas are programmed so the the wow Center which is like the Environmental Education area a u12 uh soccer field 3 through five play area K through 2 play area um an outdoor dining patio off the uh cafeteria toward the haal street side and then the rise playground which is also on the holl street side and then where there is a drop off there's kind of a an arrival Plaza Courtyard um because it came up in the comms group meeting um the question was raised what about the softball field so we've been looking into this matter so I wanted to share what we know uh right now so I called Jim Sullivan um the rec department um director and he said he his need is for a soccer field and he said I haven't really heard that there's a need for a softball so he was going to do some more leg work and talk to the softball league and find out what the need is there his sense was that it wasn't a big need so we're going to do some more investigation there at the same time we did also look at what it would what the impacts would be of putting a um a soft ball diamond diamond yeah Diamond not a sport couldn't tell couldn't tell so we would in this scenario this is not great because you can see that there's really no Outfield in this for this softball field but at the same time Jim said that the the kids who do use that current softball field it's like very little kids and they it's would be fine kind of um so we did have to move the field the soccer field over about 30 ft so it makes the playgrounds a little bit smaller I think that might be a reasonable tradeoff the playgrounds are still a pretty good size so we'll continue to to look at this we'll bring it up at the community meeting kind of take the temperature of that room and and we'll see what Jim learns talking to the softball league so we're looking at it appreciate it um and then um Tara Inc our landscape architect is going to share something similar to this but with the images that are a full size so you can actually see um so they're going to kind of just talk about the the different areas of the site and kind of the different characters and qualities of those areas and then we'll be hopefully have a good discussion and hear from people what they want to see you know you have to have swings no you can't have swings be like that and we need bike racks I don't like bike racks yep that's Community meetings and then we will also share um like just the plan to show where the gym is located and we'll talk about you know you come in there's this kind of large generous Lobby and then you go up the stair to get to the gym the gym is on the second level the cafeteria is on the ground level and that those are all very distinctly separated from all the classroom spaces they're there's um easy to lock these doors to um kind of close off those classroom areas and um have the gym and the calf be accessible to the public that's all any questions about that before I go to the sustainability I think the only other thing I would say is when you're talking to the gym just make sure we we have the elevator that has the access as well right so it's not it's fully accessible yep the elevator in there somewhere yeah I think it's right next to the right below the gem yep yep yep you're in okay so sustainability update um so I'm going to try to describe to you the five hbac systems that we are proposing or that we are looking at for this study so one and I'm going to try to do them in a really simplified way because I'm not a mechanical engineer and neither are most of you so one is pretty simple it's the full geothermal so we have 80 geothermal Wells and the geothermal field is providing all of the heating and the cooling capacity for um to heat and cool the school um two is a hybrid geothermal so here we have a smaller well field of 60 Wells and then that doesn't provide all of the heating and cooling that you need so we add a cooling tower and electric boiler to to boost and to meet those um Peak loads right when the hottest days and the coldest days but you know 85% of the days or whatever you don't need that supplemental heating or cooling um option three is a half geothermal so it's the same size that smaller well field but what we've done here is we've separated the heating and cooling of the V of the air right because we're still providing fresh air into all the classrooms all the spaces and that fresh air has to be heated and cooled before we bring it into the into the school so we've separated the heating and cooling of that air from the primary Heating and Cooling of the spaces so the primary Heating and Cooling of the spaces is still done by the geothermal system and that's um pushing through a water loop hot water cold water that's basically in um they're called uh uh chilled beams but they're similar to you know radiators in in all the spaces and then we have um to heat and cool the air that's the ventilation air we have what's called a package unit um this is also basically an air source heat pump right which many people are now familiar with that's Heating and Cooling the ventilation there so kind of separating those system systems out four is entirely an air source system so it's all electric all of these systems so far all electric no geothermal in this so there's just an air source heat recovery Chiller I said Wasim what's an air source heat recovery Chiller it's like Goble Wasim is our mechanical engineer it's basically a heat pump that can heat and cool simultaneously so you have parts of the building that are being heated other parts that are being cooled the heat recovery part is harvesting the the heat from the parts that it's moving the heat in the building where it wants to go so that's an efficiency that you get there and then it's providing all the Heat and the cooling by as a as a heat pump right like um through um through uh the air in addition to that we provide a boiler to make up for the coldest days because on the coldest days those air source heat pumps are not uh efficient and they're not up to the task of um cooling the uh sorry heating the building on the coldest days so that's system four I think of it as just the air source heat pump um system five is um what you might call a conventional system so it's an air source Chiller that's providing your Cooling and a condensing boiler that's providing your heating questions so um on um at one point and I can't remember under one of these options is there a line as far as what's electric yeah like you know like you know like what um is um qualifies as extra reimbursement or yeah great question so um the EXT reimbursement that you're talking about is do these systems meet the specialized opt-in code which msba gives you an extra 3% of reimbursement for meeting the specialized opt-in code there's a couple different ways to meet the specialized opt-in code one of which is if you have an all electric building so options 1 through four they're all electric automatically you get that extra 3% reimbursement option five we can still get the extra reimbursement but we have to provide a certain amount of Renewables on site it's not like to make a net zero but there's a certain number in a calculation so many watts per square foot um so what we're going to do is we're going to look at Option 5A and option 5B option 5A is if we don't provide the solar PV and then we don't get those 3% reimbursement what does that look like option 5B if we do provide the solar PV and we get the extra three 3% reimbursement what does that look like so we're going to figure that out there's there's also just to uh chime in here there's another caveat to getting those three points with the gas boiler option five which is that you have to hook up the building to be in the future able to be turned into an electric building you have to build it that way that's in the that's in the description right Kenny I believe you well it is it is it's part of the if you read it it's part of it so You' actually believe it or not be creating a building because they want you to have an electric building yeah it's like electric body so even if you did the gas boiler they want you to make it so that I guess you have to build in the infrastructure to turn it into a electric building down the road it's a real thing and just as far as the overall cost we're going to be bringing that next next time next time is the cost yeah so so these are the the criteria you're going to see but we're working on that cost analysis of the cost benefit to see which one is you know comes out saying for option the only other thing I would say because I'm in love with it is that option three which is half geothermal and half um air source for just the ventilation is exactly what we ended up I know I've said this but it's exactly what we ended up using at swamp Scott Pat okay because after trying to find the right money basically it didn't have extran system it didn't have like oh we need like a option two has hybrid so you actually have two systems working in conjunction neither one of them can do all of the Heat and cooling but in option three you got the geothermal doing its thing and you got the air source doing ventilation a its thing and they don't um while they support each other they don't cover they don't they don't um they don't add to each other's cost so you actually have the least uh we found at that time that it was the most efficient and even for maintenance and stuff but that's another thing that we'll uncover so this is one we've used before and and um it's being utilized it's a great segue to um energy use intensity so we have done um initial energy modeling looking at these five different systems and um this is basically giving us one number to say how much energy is this building using um for the year um so option one is the best performing 24.4 kbtu per square foot per year whatever we'll just say 24.4 that's the full geothermal um the hybrid geothermal is a little bit more but this is very interesting option three the one that Lee was just seeing the Praises of very close to that option one 25 an eui of 25 and when we look at the life cycle cost and the first cost um I think we're going to see that this option three is a really strong Contender I think the reason why its um energy use is down per square foot is because it doesn't have competing two systems being run at the same time sometimes you know what I mean so it's just a little more efficient than the one before option four the air source is less efficient and then option five the um conventional system is the least efficient now it's also interesting about that Jenny correct me if I'm wrong but listen the first floor are all electric buildings it might be that right now electric electricity costs more more to purchase than than natural gas or gas therefore the 40 while it's not a very good number for energy use um intensity it's not at all it might actually cost closer cost per year right now since it's gas versus electric it might actually be less expensive I don't know if gas will always be less expensive you know what I'm talking about so the actual cost of running the building might be a little different than this but in in a perfect world you're trying to make the most efficient building you can that uses the least energy it it has to for the future and that's what this really shows we've always been told try to get to 25 um around 25 um eui to get a really efficient building so it's been what we've been trying to do for the last say 10 15 years and um I want to respond to a question that Karen had about whether um these systems one through four meet um I'm sorry one through three meet the IRA threshold um which is in order to get the IRA incentive funding 50% of the load of the building has to be um covered by the geothermal system and yes all options one through three so the geothermal options meet that option options four and five don't qualify for Ira fund fing except for option 5B which will have the solar PV which does qualify just the solar part I think oh maybe not if it doesn't meet the 50% threshold more investigation needed we'll bring that next time not well they might give you some money for for just PV yeah I haven't not an all or nothing but when it comes to the geothermal system it's the 50% plus the 50% haven't dug into the PB side of the IRA enough to know the answer to that question so we will so um so that that I just want to once again um reiterate that those this is based on the actual building that you just that you chose so it's being modeled by vomi our energy consultant about this part first and we gave them um we went over the envelope like meaning the insulated values and all that kind of stuff with them how we're going to build it so it's it's getting real I just want you guys to know that it's getting like the funnel is happening it's getting real so we're going to switch I think to talking specifically about the geothermal in a second but before we did that um I had a a brief discussion with Carlo last week and I think I wanted to just kind of bring that to the committee here just talking a little bit about um what does any picking any of these mean and you know what is the operational maintenance and we're going to be talking very specifically about cost at the next meeting and I I think right now I know Joe has been doing a lot of research on this and we' we've given him some more information we're going to continue to give him enough information until he's comfortable one way or the other you know whichever way he ends up uh but I just want to let everybody know that a couple of things I guess first and foremost no matter which one of these options we pick you're going to spend more on operation and maintenance of that building than you do today because first and foremost the building is twice the size right it's a bigger building uh the other thing I will say and I think we've said is that buildings that were built 50 years ago had Heating and maybe some ventilation but usually they said well if you want ventilation open the window you'll get some fresh air from the window this building is going to have a full HVAC heating ventilation and air conditioning it's going to be much better than anything that you could possibly get from that building with that better system with those better options there's filters that need to be changed there's other things so no matter what we have there's going to be additional operational maintenance processes that need to be done there's going to be additional cost with that there probably going to be training so and and we're going to make sure we get you all that training we're going to understand those costs we're going to that's going to be part of that analysis that Jenny is working on right now and so from that perspective I I think whichever you choose to to be the right system for you it's going to be the right system but there's going to be some growing paints basically and from that perspective I we'll we'll see what the numbers come out but typically what we expect is that option one two or three would probably be the least expensive from an operation and maintenance standpoint and option five is probably the most expensive from an operation standpoint and option one two or three is going to be the most upfront cost and option 5 is going to be the least upfront cost but the incentives kind of help offset some of those upfront costs so there's a lot a lot to go in there but just I just want to kind of I guess lay that groundwork and let people think about that if there's questions so yeah so just if I'm hearing that because I I do call Joe you know mentioned I think Joe's I think he's on there yeah so in in the end though it's um we're in for more op it's going to cost more operationally regardless of what we choose I mean and there may be some slightly degrees in difference in there um um but no matter what operationally it's going to be more for us to be able uh you cwise if I may um it'll cost more as the whole building because it's twice as big and all and it has air conditioning and all that on the other hand if you really focus in on energy use intensity per square foot energy use per square foot yeah if you have a larger building and 25 you know eui but your existing building I wouldn't be surprised if your existing building isn't 60 or 70 right I mean you look at you know when we look at these old buildings because of its lack of insulation and all that it might even be worse so you're actually whatever you're pumping into that is heat is going right out literally right out the window if it's being held in and um this way you're actually being so much more efficient that you know what I mean so there's another way of looking at it for square foot you're actually going to be paying I believe a lot less yeah I I think that's I think that's fair Le I again I just thinking about it from the standpoint as far as how we operate and how Joe and team operate within reading today just structurally as far as how they are maintaining and they're doing an excellent job doing it and and I think that gets to your point Mike because this building is a new building we're going to bring online there's we we don't have a building like this and so um I think it's but it's I think it's this is an important you know kind of concept for us to make sure that we are you know kind of communicating well that there is going to be increased operating costs around it just because uh of that very fact and that most of what we do and jok and correct me if I'm wrong but like we there's a lot of that that we subcontract out and we have you know kind of performance Contracting for for that and that that that'll be a new component of that is what my assumption Joe you can correct me if I'm I'm wrong on that the one other thing I'll say that is it's operation and maintenance the operation cost will probably be more but the maintenance cost should be a lot less because you're maintaining newer systems and and if you're operating them and and treating them they'll last not that they haven't lasted but they've last beyond their life but so we have a a huge decision to make at our next probably are one of our most important decisions to make right and um I want to make sure that we're getting from the subcontractor that you have first costs life cycle costs incentives and operational SL maintenance cost you it must be a reimbursement yes if there's any differences for all five of the options so operational costs will be part of the life cycle cost okay part of that bucket but yes but we'll be able to kind of see how it's pulled out I mean I understand it's part of that whole process it's going to be a heck of a chart yeah yeah it's operation maintenance and then replacement cost those are the real the three big buckets if you will because you know all of this is great but we today could not make this decision because we don't have the costs right um so yep yeah and and this process has always come together like like Lee said it's the funnel it's come together and then you're able to say oh the the information's in front of you you're able to see it and say clearly this is our decision right which we've done so far so I appreciate all the work you guys have done so far on it and and part of it also is the um the construction sequencing right and what's what is going to be an option what won't be an option and that's what we're going to try and get into here just a little bit Yeah so maybe just from that perspective I I think I've given the committee or I I've expressed my apprehension on this before with the committee about and I I think we we've had some good meetings internally both with us and the designer and with breit core and with the uh the geothermal Brain Trust and we're going to have another meeting with them real soon but um I I think at least from my perspective I think there's an option out there that we can do geothermal I don't know if number one all geothermal is still 100% there the hardest of them but it doesn't mean it can't be done but I'm pretty confident that the option two and three um what Jenny's going to show you here can support that and can support it from a constructibility perspective at least in my opinion but I definitely want to get Pat and and Greg and a few others uh I think AR's going to hopefully be able to join us you know some people that have have kind of done this before and work in the construction industry and and let them see what we're what we're going to be showing you here and I think uh I guess I just want to give you that I I'm feeling a lot more positive about this and a lot more uh encouraged that we we've we found that path forward and it took us a little bit of time to do it but I think we did the right due diligence and and and it that's what it took to get it get me there I guess so uh with that wel welcome overboard yes okay so just to real quick will there be warranty options as well like I don't know like if geothermal has like a 20-year warranty on whatever is done and like you know the boiler thing like to years or something like do you have those kind of things as well we can look into it I would say I probably defer to the mechanical design team on that but typically you're going to have a warranty of a five or 10 year on like moving Parts kind of a thing like we're going to have a one-year building warranty but typically the moving Parts the pumps the the things of that nature um it's more of a five or 10 year you know kind of a warranty um we we can see if we can get a little bit of information on the the wells themselves don't really break they're they're basic they're buried underground and unless you kind of dig down with a back ho or something like that you're really not going to affect the wells and and you know it's really the pumps pumping the the fluid out to the Wells and that pumps inside the building but uh we can certainly take a look into that yeah we'll look into that for next um time so what we're looking at here on this plan these blue circles are our 30t diameter and that um indicates the area of thermal influence of each well so that's the spacing that they want to be so that they can each work effectively but the actual well is only 1 foot diameter so um it looks like oh my God the site is completely full of geothermal Wells but it's really just these kind of pinpoints in the middle of those blue circles so for example when we look at site utilities we'll be able to negotiate the site Utilities in between the the wells um so in this scenario we've shown all of the Wells on the um I'm just going to say the right side because like the map part of my brain is not working right now um so it's all to the side of the construction fence which is shown here in Red so they're this we've looked at some options where oh maybe we could Dr Drill in this parking lot area during the summer or part of the year but this is a nice clean approach that really separates the school from the construction and there doesn't need to be any back and forth between the two um on the top right here is a staging area that the um the uh well driller needs that um will will be used for um equipment lay down and also for spoils so when they dig the wells there will be material that comes up depending on the type of drilling um it could be wet material which then they'll settle out in settle and settling tanks which will be in that staging area or it could be dry material which they'll just bag up and then haul away but basically that's that staging area is the space that they need to to manage their operations how old do they need that during the whole time that they're drilling their Wells so but so and uh maybe I'll save this question then yeah we're going to look at schedule I'll I'll say that question sorry one other thing on that is that a lot of the existing or the future building utilities are kind of in that area so exactly yeah I've shown like a utility Corridor all the util or majority of the utilities will come into the building in this area because this is where our mechanical rooms are so that's just kind of a nice keeping the wells ey there's yeah makes a little easy toach yeah um just one other thing before so the well is that one little pinpoint on each of those but connecting the wells is a loop a loop an HTP pipe Loop that kind of comes from the building we might have I I don't know how many Loops we'd have here if it's it's not gonna be one Loop that connects all it might be five Loops it might be you know some some number of Loops that connect you know a dozen Wells together or 10 Wells together something like that and and those Loops will have to be uh brought back to the building and that will be part of the the well drillers process as well so is so is that why it makes more sense to have it where all of the wells are in the new area versus anything that's you know like kind of existing like where where existing kilum is now again thinking about oh oh where the existing building Kil and building is yeah oh so that we don't want to D put Wells where the existing kilum building is because when this building is finished and you open in September those geothermal Wells are the heating and cooling system of the building and they need to be online so yes so there my I guess you're hitting on my question is there could you do you know say there's 60 and and I don't know if there's many designs here I saw option one I I was Bri looking option two is there a way that you could do the majority of them and then there's other ones that you can do later yeah so there's um we have other potential areas where we could put um more Wells if for any reason this ends up not being uh this ends up there ends up being difficulties with the wells as shown here so the best areas are um for to expand the well field into would be um either in this parking lot um and we hope that then that could be done during the summer so it would have less impact and you know they could drill the well and then just put it back and use it as a parking lot also on the North side here um would be another spot where we could do a similar approach we did consider that though like especially for the for the full geothermal system like could we not get enough in the construction could we but then you're talking bringing on temporary boilers doing temporary work keeping it so there is more work associated with that so we we did consider it but I think we're we're kind of saying it's probably we we we think we can do it without needing to get to that level I guess that Mak sense yeah a couple couple observations here you have these are called option one and option two yeah but that has nothing to do with the previous slide which also has option one and option two yeah call these op a and otherwise there going to be real confusion I don't understand that understand the layout of option one versus option two um option two is with um angled Wells is that right yeah that should have less coverage than option one what you calling option one yeah but it seems to be it doesn't it has more why why why is there such a disparity between the layouts here so you have option two some of the wells are under the footprint of the existing school yeah so and the ex new school and the existing school it seems to me the option two has no merit whatsoever relative to option one it's entirely probable that that's correct I think we were we learned about this approach to um well drilling from Bri core and um maybe I just got over excited about it I think option one is the more straightforward scenario what we learned is it's possible to drill Wells at an angle so in this scenario if I zoom in here um all of the wells in this area are drilled along this red line and they go out at different angles so where the blue circle is shown is the end of the well it's where it's going um so like a tie think of it like a tieback John where you're drilling at an angle you you end up underneath rights of way and easements and streets and potentially other buildings is because you're drilling at an angle your your imp your influence at grade is is linear but the influence at depth is spread out to the Terminus like um Jenny's describing what you but you're saying the you're saying this the head of the well the top of the well is where the orange circles are is that correct it's where these um it's on this red line here they're just these little black dots it's written middle it's it's it's it's it's there it's it's it's the right between the third and the fourth lines W think that red line there I think John's point is it has to be more clear it doesn't make sense like it you can't tell on this graph what you're talking about with the the line until you zoom in like that so anybody else is just going to look at this and they're under buildings so yes if you could separate maybe per not purple I don't know a different color for all those dots and just say that that's what it's doing it would be a lot more clear yeah this is not a super clear concept I think to explain you you need I'm right with you Jenny for clarity you need to show where the head of the well is and you don't need to show where the bottom of the well is because nobody cares about them okay as long as the engineer says that you can angle Wells and I don't think you can Ang them as as much as you've shown actually to be honest with you but that's okay this is but just just show the top of the world because that's what we're interested okay I think it's I think it's Crystal Clear but I've got it I'm with you Greg yeah everybody El in the room I think it's excellent it's awesome did you put this together so what I just wanted to show this I think not because we're kind of proposing that this approach in fact there's more unknowns here the wells interfere with each other at the top where they're too close together so there we would actually need more length of wells and we don't have the engineering I don't have the engineering capacity to do that calculation so would be more complex um I think what we wanted to show is that there's so many possibilities kind of the most it we believe it works in the most simple approach if when we kind of get into it um there if there are reasons why this well doesn't work or that well doesn't work there's so many other opportunities to expand the well field into these other areas on the site or to drill them at an angle can you do can you do a c you could do both yeah exactly um so we just think that it's a really solvable problem I think the other thing when this was being done when we were meeting with Bri cor we hadn't done a schedule yet and and I do have I have a 149 schedule I don't have a 149a schedule to share with you guys just yet but when we did it part of the question was looking at um one of the one of the recommendations from breit cor if we can go back to option A or option yeah um Jenny has the lay down area in the top corner there but there they had discussions about that it might make sense for them to have their lay down area more centrally located to the wells in other words don't build the building while I'm drilling the wells okay and so so in this scenario we would probably be recommending to do the well first if it was 149 well guy leaves general contract com in and now he takes over the site if it's seem at risk it can be an early package uh same same kind of thing but if we ran up against it on the schedule one of the options if we go to the next one is we could be working as the general contractor on the bottom half of the page while the driller is working in the top half of the page so it again it's just giving more options more possibilities if we do the test well and the test well comes back with something shockingly different than we expected this might give us more opportunities to still consider it that type of thing so I think it was good that Bri core offered that as an option and I I think I you know from that perspective I we wanted to make sure that you understood that we don't have one solution we have multiple Solutions and if none of those work then we can go back to the temp and doing some of some additional under the other building but again this cost and and everything associ with that so when would we know oh sorry so when would we like when are the test Falls like when are we going to know all of that so we were just talking about whether we would actually talk about trying to release that even as soon as tonight and I think with the cost coming in a couple of weeks we thought seeing the cost might be an important part of that overall discussion and or yeah I my opinion is that at this where we're at right now if we start the test well you know if we release them to do the test well tomorrow it's not going to be done before the SD phase is done so it's not um an urgent matter like we'll find out sometime during DB um or during the um vote we'll get the results back from the test well and then be able to kind of refine the number of wells and the type of drilling that they'll do do you have an estimate guest guesstimate at this point for the duration of installing these Wells and how many rigs would be involved yes so I'll let Mike talk about the schedule piece yes so what we did is we we we had a long conversation with breit core and they gave us a lot of information we want to bring this to the geothermal Brain Trust next I think next week got to come with a new name for that by the way no I like it no I like it it's stuck it's it's a handful I like it just like the team but we want to get get Greg's input and Pat's input and everything but um what we did is we went through and just kind of giving you a highlight of those activities so we we started at the top with the with the general construction you know high level 10,000 FT elevation with the gray bars and then below it we did the well design and we just did some again some high level so uh bid the early package package assume 60 days from the time um we get the the package complete to to bid it and to award it and and and and basically get it going um potential well shop drawings so that the the little indented items all fall under under the potential well package so shop drawings 30 days and these are calendar days just so everybody understands uh so about a month to do shop drawings 7 days to mobilize um the the 12 days that's assuming 60 Wells at 800 ft deep what we were told is it's not a day and a half but it's more than a day so I think we put in either 1.25 or 1.33 uh Wells per day um and they how many rigs uh right now it's one rig one rig and and again maybe being a little conservative there if we determin that we needed to shorten this duration we could go to two rigs or Bri course said that there's kind of a cost efficiency where they go to two rigs versus one rig and they said for 60 uh Wells they thought one rig would be more cost efficient for them so this is a diesel rig I don't know we didn't get into that I'm thinking about impact on the neighborhood you know 4 months of heavy diesel piece of equipment U 7:00 in the morning till 4:00 in the afternoon um if I lived there I'd be um sreaming bloody Mur well it's going to be a lot longer than that cuz you're going to have site work and I'm talking I'm talking about noise and and air pollution and stuff like that you know particulates well all these machines have scrubbers on them they they're not they're air they're their pollutant are minimal the noise is is certainly can one of the things we did talk to them is is their an ability to put up some sort of noise barriers and they said that they can actually uh hang it off the construction fence they can actually do noise barriers between the between the drill rig and the school between the drill rig and the and the neighbors so it does help uh mitigate the noise I mean I I complain with the nextdoor neighbor has landscapers in once a week to cut his grass and and but you know living four months with a diesel rig outside my [Music] door we did hear from um a school in Lexington that there was not a lot of learning going on because of the noise while they were um doing these so that that definitely is a concern and i' we're looking at technical issues now but I think there are some social issues here which the brains trust need to take into consideration very seriously because yeah so could you do yeah so like because you have it date-wise if you're just projecting out you have it March to July for drill right correct is it better to have two rigs at half the time or one rig at four months um you know those those questions need to be asked and they need to be asked seriously because I think that the neighborhood is doesn't deserve pollution and noise for the hold of the summer yeah it's it's a good for months I don't think the pollution would be an issue but the well it is we have we have in Reading we have a an ordinance which says diesel engines trucks must not idle for more than 5 minutes and yet we we're going to have an IDL not an idling but a full rev thing in one location spewing out fumes I know what you say about scrubbers but they don't work too well um for 4 months in the neighborhood and I think that you know anyone that lives there who has some serious objections to that can seriously disrupt this project if and I hear what you're saying if they have those sound barriers the noise barriers one um if if your suggestion about cutting that duration from four months potentially to two during the summer with two rigs MH that that sounds like a good option as well Mike where you have um if I go up to the part above where you have construction the primary construction phase starting on 826 is that that's like when that period starts with you know they're actually doing permits and they're doing submitt and Shop drawings right I mean yeah I would expect the first month they're probably getting trailers out there getting fence out there getting shop drawings going you probably don't maybe hay bales and Sil fence things of that nature you're not you're not digging the hole for the foundation on August 28th or something like that like September 28th you will be yeah second month you're going to be digging holes and pouring concrete yeah yeah months three four and five you're going to be swinging steel you going have you know crane on site there's I just if we can to this concern about this the noise if we can um shift this schedule so that we get it down like Carla said to two months during the summer so rather than from March to to July mid July can we do mid June to Mid August you would have to no way that these kids are going to be able to I mean I understand the the neighbors but the kids and themselves there's no way they're going to be able to deal with this for two mons started in the beginning of June last two weeks of school or nothing anyway so as long as it's pushed out for them that that's one hurdle to John's point but I mean obviously the neighbors is another one and I just I would just caution people that the drill rig may be loud but site work is loud Cray's allowed everything is this is not a a quiet operation building this school is going to have Growing Pains but this is nonstop repetitive the same noise people complain pickle ball same thing with site work you know uh you're going to have a bulldozer out there or an excavator or or both for eight hours a day you know like but but that doesn't M mitigate you know two wrongs don't make it right um if it's you know noise pollution from the rigs is one thing noise pollution from the construction is another thing but putting them together doesn't make it better no I I I what I'm getting from you Mike is that we this is just about expectation setting you know I think we're just that that's what we're you know this is these are some of the pluses and minuses of doing geothermal frankly is that you're you know this is one of the things you're going to have to live with I mean we we can go back and talk to Bright cor see if they can give us some order magnitudes on the cost if you're talking an extra 20 grand to go to two rigs I'd say it's it's a no-brainer if it's an extra million dollars is that something that you want to spend 20 at 20 grand you just go with like making the same thing as you all the time yeah yes I'd go six at 20 grand yes in the millions uh so one of the problems with the the and things will change between here and there but the current schedule is from March to July and if you're trying to start project in August one of the problems with saying we're going to double up rigs I'm going to put that all in the back end end is you're giving yourself no wiggle room and we're drilling 800 ft into the ground which when they say a day a day and a half like some wells might take five days and they might be doing five wells in a day yeah you really don't know what you're going to get you're drilling 800 feet into the ground yeah this couldn't be a more unknown so if you take the risk and stack it all up at the end say we're going to put a bunch of rigs out there and now we have three Rigs and something goes wrong we got three rigs sitting out there on a contract saying I want to get paid for for for downtime my equipment you know it's that's a little it's a little risky um just something to consider you know it's it's the it'll every day it'll be different drilling let's see if we can get more information from and obviously we want to keep all this mitigation stuff in mind right and and that and that's all you can do and I agree with you I hate thinking of pushing it off right it's better to have it at the beginning this raises the question of a test I mean yeah what are we talking about in terms of it test well let's let you know let's listen to a rig and right and the test Wells that that's usable it could be one of the future be one of them yeah we'll all be out there9 mcast Linds saying mcast too you know that will be something that we'd have to say we keeping the kids where they are you know we can do we can do like mcast a can be they yeah yeah down so just again looking at a high level here so we do have the drill in so drill Loop and grow that was the technical term that they had so it's drilling uh it's actually putting the the the the pipe in into it and then groing it so because I actually asked I said you know what do we have to do out you it's a day and a half to do it well but what else do you have to do and he said no that's the full well but it's it's not installing the horizontal Loops right so we have demobilization of the drill system for a week we have the installation of the loops those probably could overlap but I'm not overlapping them right now again being a little conservative here with the with the durations um we then took scheduled contingency so if you add up all the other items in this section and times it by 10% I gave myself a 10% contingency to to P point we're assuming a well every day uh you know one well every day and and a half or day and a quarter if some of them run in longer we we we factored in a 10% duration contingency there um and then we have the wells complete so when we did that we we actually initially when I had done this I think I did it so that the design would be concurrent with the uh construction documents and that pushed us way out so what you seeing here is if I go back to the top here welld designed complete has to be done by 12 12 12 25 so about a year from now a little over a year from now and if you look up above we will be in the middle of design development through November we'll just be getting into the 60% construction documents and basically at the same time we're doing 60% construction documents we'd have to do the early package documents for the well so at that point we'd have to be far enough along really with um not just the well but enough of the HVAC to determine is it 58 Wells is it 62 Wells that type of thing we'd also have to have the site work done well enough that we know where the utilities are so that we're kind of we're working outside of those but I I think in talking with Lee and Jenny that was reasonably doable we've got a year to plan it as long as we know reasonably soon that we're going to you know which way we're going to be going and we can start planning for that we can do that so this is a conservative schedule to your point if we go to two rigs we can shorten that up if we don't need the contingency it can be shortened up 60 days for bidding could I do it in 50 maybe you know 30 would be a challenge with public bidding laws that kind of thing but the the good news is this conservative schedule didn't make me change the big schedule that's that's like that's the that's when I saw that that's what made me feel like all right now this is doable this was not pushing the construction out 6 months or something like that it it was not to be honest we're still looking for ways that we can maybe get construction started a little earlier because starting in August isn't the ideal time to start you know usually the earlier the better we can get into the ground get the concrete going before the winter gets too cold that kind of thing but um this is is a path forward that is reasonable and certainly could be bettered certainly could be bettered but uh makes me feel pretty confident now we started I started trying to do a very similar thing for CM at risk but I started thinking that I needed maybe a little more time to process it and maybe get some other input on that because what happens is that that drilling time and everything starts to overlap with the construction time and how how do we want to represent that do I want to represent it that the construction time gets 187 days longer or do I say that it doesn't get a day longer it's just in the or do I need to do something in between so it was trying to start to do that I said before I do that I'd like to maybe get some other thoughts on that and see you know what other people think one of the other things that the well Drilla did tell us is that in an ideal situation he might suggest to have all the um Regular utilities physically in place first and then allow him to do his horizontal lines afterwards would would it be possible for the well driller not to to do the horizontal lines so that he just just does the vertical caps it off and then the general contractor takes over and does the horizontal lines I don't think you could do that we we did talk to him about that there's got to be a lot of Earth moving on this site don't forget we have Phil ground which yeah I still don't have an answer from the geotechnical my questions about whether that has to be removed and replaced yeah that my basic question does this fill ground which exists right now have to be removed and replaced I think there's unbl that we were looking at he yeah he said it's possible to amend on the The Fill but that given the tight site it's not really practical to do you don't you need to do that work before you put the loops in is what I'm getting to if you if you're going to have to do that you need to do it before you put the loops in you can't put the loops in and then start digging up the ground and taking it offsite and bringing new stuff in or reusing the existing stuff so it's this is tied up with earthor as well not just not just well drilling it's site preparation package maybe the early package should be site preparation plus drilling that is then going to greatly extend that so that do but that may be the only way to do it like is what I'm saying or it may bring you back to that CM RIS versus GC question I think we've got a lot of way long way to go before this is resolved be hon honest with you I don't think this has been thought through totally um oh it absolutely I I I said we haven't even gotten a schedule together for 139 no even even the sequence you know the sequence when you do the drilling relative to do then cycle um if we've got to remove existing soils replace them you can't do that after you put the loops in these are fundamental well if the if they remove and replace is within the building and the loops are outside the building that's okay if that's that what it is but we don't know that answer yet well let's get the answers on the on the the the Geotech but if we're removing and replacing on suitables presumably that's under the foundation I would assume we're not removing and replacing unsuit bles under sidewalks and playgrounds and things like that which is kind of where the geothermal Wells are so they should be they should be sure Mike's touch on this a little bit but they should be separated but something no doubt John something that's got to be thought through we even thought about like would it in an ideal situation I'd like to have the earthwork guy come in and scrape all the loom off and and and kind of give you a flat level area for the well driller to drill because he's going to be more efficient absolutely so but again um I'm not saying we can't but doing an early package that's Wells and site work just again adds a level of complexity to that to that early package not sure that's true okay I think it may add a level of Simplicity if you do it that way if you do it in the right sequence it's simple if you do it in the wrong sequence it's complicated an earth work really needs to be done before the loops go in I think are we we need the responses on the Geotech and we need to to look at it a little I think that's great point but you don't want heavy construction equipment running around the site bulldozers and stuff like that c 95505 when you've got relatively fragile plastic piped Loops in you just don't want that to happen you want to do the earth work first so that's a question I think for brightcore too right well I I think breit core said that their preference would be to to have all the earthwork done beforehand and just come into the loops but you're even under a c at risk scenario there than you're extending your construction dve again we can certainly do that but it's it's going to impact the the overall schedule maybe if you have two Rigs and the earth work maybe that will not extend it beyond the schedule you've got here when I'm building the building right now if I wasn't doing geothermal Wells I'm going to be put putting the the site utilties in as concrete goes in if I do the earth work first I'm not doing concrete while I'm doing that so that entire time I'm doing that that Earth work I'm not doing building it's extending by that so to your point if we can shorten up the rigs there but it's it's going to extend more than what we have right now but if it's done right it is what it is because to John's Point once again if we are going to spend one whatever this is going to cost and how I brought up the warranty scenario ex I didn't think of warranties on you know foot diameter Wells going in the ground 800 ft but we don't want stuff to happen after the fact under the ground and if it can be prevented in advance then we should be doing that if it extends it out it is what it is but Bri Cobra or whatever will know whether or not that's a true and accurate statement that I just made maybe they're they've dealt with this before and it's not an issue but I don't know geothermal at all so just to me it it seems fragile I I thought these things were the gigantic holes like the size of this table and for a one foot thing seems very easy to compromise compared to some gigantic hole so I think these are good points good questions John and uh thank you for pushing us yes we have some more investigation to do and thinking to do um so kind of checking in on our the goals of this um energy feasibility study we have um a site Logistics plan during construction but we need to do more thinking um and planning about how that the the digging of the wells coordinates with the site work and Earth work um we've established the number of Wells um based on the energy model we have the layout of Wells on site um so next time we meet we will be coming back with more information to the the questions that were asked tonight also um a layout of site utilities coordinated with the wellfield the cost that um cost comparison that um Carla asked about and um I think on a separate track we've um Joe Huggin has been working on this last piece which is gathering information on the reliability and operating cost from districts who have had geothermal systems installed and operational um so I think we'll ask Joe to kind of give a report back to the SBC about that um at our November meeting I think the I don't I don't think that there are operational cost information coming to Joe I was hoping that that was coming coming from your so yeah so there's two pieces there's the um the kind of um the life cycle cost analysis where we'll actually look at the cost of utility you know the electricity or gas cost right um based on how much energy is required to run this um building um and then we'll look at that and we're doing that part and we're doing that part yeah um so I guess there's a quantitative and a qualitative piece to this right so Joe has been asking you know I he Joe Huggins wants to talk to facility directors who have experience with doing geothermal systems and and understand their experience I'm calling that a qualitative piece we're doing the quantitative piece of the cost I think it's a big piece for Joe to make sure that he gets that that that part of it that you know that that I think that's right in Joe's will house to be able to understand what's what it's going to be for him and team you know going forward and just in general just so everybody understands we initially found a couple of schools in Lexington and a couple others um that have been doing this for a little while and were able to report back to Joe and then we reached out to our commissioning team inh house and gave him a few other options that aren't K to2 schools but are buildings in uh Massachusetts or at least the New England area that have done this for a little while so that it'll give them a little bit better understanding the reality is that that if you look 10 years ago the incentives that we we've been talking about just weren't there so it was very difficult for anybody to choose go thermal with the incentives it's become more prevalent now and five years from now you'll probably be able to get a half a dozen schools that have a fiveyear history or something like that but right now there's just really not a lot of them a lot of them have it and they're just starting to use it now but they can't really give you a a five year or 10 years this is the point that Joe was like you over the last last couple years things have been mild and so I think you know that's that's the perspective that he wants to be able to understand is something a little bit farther out where you've had harsher winters colder days things of that nature these things still are under warranty and everything else exactly just I think understanding it from an operational perspective I think which is and and I think we're foolish to to not think that we're adding staff or adding um Subs something yeah to to to help maintain yeah okay so um just to recap our upcoming kind of next steps the msba board is meeting October 30th um at that board meeting they'll vote to um Advance how how you how would you phrase it Mike to um Advance this project to SD yeah they're going to accept the the PSR submission and and officially vote to uh allow us to go into schematic design the reality is we're already in schematic design and you're going to see see that over and over again at the end of schematic we're going to have some discussions about do we shut the design team down for four months and wait for them to officially approve us to go to DD or are we able to continue and most districts try to do the continue part but we will we'll certainly be talking about that next spring probably before that but we're gonna meet do I have the wrong date for the next SBC meeting did we change that to the 20th we'll be talking about HC system selection I do have it noted as the 20th 20th yeah I think we changed the date so sorry this is incorrect um and then after that we'll meet on December 2nd for estd update we have the upcoming community meeting um on Wednesday for site and Community use and then November 4th we have one on traffic yeah because it's in town meeting that Monday is that why we I think that's it was a conflict yeah yeah we have town meeting on Monday that's why moved it to we moved it to Wednesday yeah okay that concludes my presentation thank you thank you job very much okay um so we are not gonna vote right now is that the sense yeah at 9:25 okay we're we're gonna push it so we'll table the 149 149a discussion uh we'll put it on the agenda for the next couple meetings and and it doesn't mean you have to vot in the next one but it is something I would say maybe Target of of doing it in 24 though you don't have to be a weather man to know which way the wind blows yes yeah but that's it's it's it's more just making sure we do it before the end of the year I think timing wise you know the msba actually asked a question when we were submitting our PSR for example like have you already done that and we said we're in the process of doing it and they said all right that's fine you know but I think as long as we're doing it in a timely manner and a thoughtful manner they're not going to have a problem with that but I think if we waited till this time next year that would be a problem so I would just say if we can Target in 2024 I think that's a reasonable Target if we get to December and we're not ready then we'll revisit at that point you should be able to vote one of the next two meetings out I would think so yeah okay great um we are not going to vote on the warrant that's something that I'm we're talking with James as well um so SE approval of Prior meeting minutes so our for our September 30th 2024 meeting minutes have a motion September 30th 24 make a motion to accept the September 30 2024 meeting minutes second and any discussion say seeing none uh Pat yes Sean yes John yes Chris yes Kirk yes Ed yes Greg yes Carla and the motion passes we already talked about future agenda items uh we already talk about next meeting excuse me before you guys adjourn could I make a a comment please a quick one go ahead thank you this is Karen herck Vice chair of the select board and um so that was a a terrific stability update I really appreciate all the work that went into it um that is definitely an update since I was last able to attend a sustainability working group um I want to raise a little bit of a concern these are all valid concerns um about noise and maintenance and and we are absolutely going to have a different type of uh staff setup as we transition our buildings to Electric um but what I want to make sure is that we still have a sustainability working group and and I would ask that this committee talk about how how um how and and what kind of parses and feedback are going to weigh into a decision as to whether um or what type of hbac system we use for this um we will I can I can commit that uh the select board will absolutely you know direct the town manager to make sure that our staff have the skills they need to do their job um but I'm a little concerned with putting all of the responsibility on Joe Huggins if that's what I heard this group was leaning towards for saying whether or not you know he recommends geothermal because that is not that's this is an area that Joe's going to get very educated and he's been getting educated but we have experts on this team and geothermal may be new to Massachusetts schools because we've only just started funding it and the IRA just happened but it is not new to New England there are commercial buildings all over the place at the end of the day these are just large buildings so so that that I just wanted to get out there that that's a concern and it has to be a VI uh just process making sure that we have balanced inputs um and um I would never say that we would um put any staff in the position that they didn't have the resources to to do the right thing to do their job so that's it thank you it was a great presentation final motion motion to aour second no discussion uh Pat yes Sean yes John yes Chris yes Kirk yes Ed yes Greg yes Carla yes thanks everyone remember thank you e e