order this you go ahead uh okay the Red Bank historic preservation commission will come to order this 20th day of March 2024 the time is 7 pm. adequate notice of this meeting has been posted at bur Hall filed with the bur Clerk and provided to the as Park Press and the two River Times the commission has maintained a policy cut off hour of 8:30 p.m. for his hearings okay everyone stand to salute the flag please yeah okay we'll have a roll call yeah Lou Al Marini margerie Cavalier present Liam Collins Paul tagno present um Karen Doug Miller Andy nor here and Betsy Valia yes so have a motion to accept the minutes from February 21st 2024 someone I'll make the motion second okay and then I'm got do roll call you call you say roll call oh roll call Lou Al Marini pres yes this is one yes marjerie Cavalier yes Liam Collins here yes yes Paul kago yes Doug Miller yes and Andy were not present so North needs to be sworn in right yes Mr North would you please raise your right hand and repeat after me I and state your name I Andy North you solemnly swear you solemnly swear and I will faithfully impartially and justly that I will Faithfully partially and impartially and justly perform all of the duties perform all the duties as a member of the Red Bank historic preservation commission as a member of the Red Bank historic preservation commission to the best of my to the best of my ability right you turn it off now all right go ahead Liam okay so um so I started with the historic preservation commission uh part of the reason was because I was uh annoyed that over the last four years over 30 Century homes have been uh demolished in Red Bank and so uh when the mayor approached me and asked me to be on the commission I gladly accepted um and tonight I've invited uh art P who is the chairman of the Fair Haven uh historic preservation commission to share with us to get some ideas and and uh ask many questions that we may have and giving us guidance as a a neighbor who has a lot of experience and a lot of care for this peninsula that we all live on so without further Ado yeah if you can you can sit at any one of these and just hold a mic really close to you like d is an attorney so I need sitting on the defense side so the audio system is really bad in here just pull the mic just to you can you hear me yes more okay so yes thank you very much for inviting me mar P um I've been a resident of Fair Haven for um 25 plus years I've been the chair of preservation commission Haven for roughly 10 years uh I was on the commission for a couple of years before that um the Commission in Fair Haven has been in effect in various incarnations since probably the 1990s what had happened at that point and this is you know kind of general information that I'm providing um they it was voluntary group that um gained traction with the uh mayor and the Council of Fair Haven to try to preserve uh the historic district of Fair Haven uh which primarily is between Fair Haven Road and brown Lane and northward so on the Riverside um and including the including the commercial District between fa Haven Road and Browns Lane as well so as as uh things got off the ground uh there were a couple of challenges and in the early 2000s there was a challenge to the Wi which the ordinance was actually pregated within burrow and it was found that it was not properly pregated and the uh commission was set up in a manner that it really didn't have even any advisory capacity and this was as a result of a contested application that was made so the preservation commission was disbanded for a period about five years during that time there were several demolitions there were some houses that were constructed in the historic district I still get discussions from Town's people today telling me how did you ever allow that thing to be built and I have to tell them that that's actually what happens when you have no oversight or no consideration for preservation of an otherwise in act historic district so just I I looked at your regulation or the ordinance I looked a little at what you guys have to deal with and it's obviously much more complicated than what we have we have a commercial District as du we is much more involved but much more commercial development going on um and just a larger footprint of pres structures that you wish preserve we also have uh by way of our Charter couple of things we are not we are only advisory in nature so we have no policing Powers although we were taken to task recently on a couple of applications whereby individual applicants did things that were directly contrary to what we had recommended and the town's kind of put an interesting place in terms of how to handle that but what happens is we do with applications is we render uh basically memorandum of action and is either approve an application or deny it or approve it in part with conditions and those are supplied to the various boards and commissions and the council uh in town and if somebody is disgruntled or disagrees with our memorandum of action they have an appeal right to go to the planning board and again it's a recommendation that we make to the planning board but I will tell you that our planning board gives difference to uh I think our decisions because we try to be and as chair I I render these decisions we try to be very specific we try to be fair um but we also try to back off everything that we recommend um and in context you can't you found that you can't be overly egregious with certain applicants some people don't have the money to do certain things that we would love to see in terms of preservation uh and there are limitations um so we work with business owners we work with applicants obviously try to strive for the goal of preserving mostly structures and in essence our Charter is to very broad it's not specific in terms of guidelines which you can and can't do it's for preservation of the structure to utilize elements and building material design elements that would be keeping with the original date of construction of that structure of structures that are contiguous to that property so it gives some what of a subject event um and we have Architects we have Master Builders on the on the commission um that usually help that backgr materals and have somebody who the chair of the historic Association very familiar with the style vernacular constructed that was a period from about 187 issue and now a century home would be considered obviously 1924 not that it's limited to Century hes but that sort of time frame was for most of the historic buildings residential area and in the um commercial area were built you also have um one historic structure in the buau which is called bis Centennial PA of Fisk Chapel I don't know if familiar with that structure that's owned by the buau uh Fisk Chapel was an African-American church uh that was a posts slavery Church U that was um formed by U think his name first Carlton Carlton FIS was his last name but he was a member uh and headed up the freed persons commission President Lincoln established uh an area for worship and donated the land donated the structure so that structure was moved to SEC Avenue and Fair Haven it's been maintained although it's it's not state of condition um it's been um it's under our jurisdiction if any attempt to changes are made to that structure Reserve as well so we're limited to the preservation District the historic district and that structure but the actual parameters that we have over other structures are there but we really don't get any applications or we're not our jurisdiction really isn't invoked unless it's a structure that's in the historic district so um I thought it interesting that you said you're just starting trying to get your traction together and try to figure these things out you know it's sort of like the practice you get different types of um applications different orations and uh you you work within the parameters of your jurisdiction of what you can do but you know it's you always learn along the way and U with that I I'll answer any questions that you have or practical considerations or things that we Face any way I Poss be assistance answer question I had a question about uh so if you have a a structure in the historically designated area that is non contributing so say it's uh you know had a lot of Renovations done to it in the past and it's what is there anything that that fa Haven does to help the homeowner try to bring it up to the point where it is then contributing yeah so good question um and we face that because there are a number of residences and there are a number of buildings that build much later and especially during a time when there's no preservation so they could be mid-century houses or something even more modern than that and we have a designation uh it's an informal designation first of all our jurisdiction is invoked by virtue of the fact that those structures exist in the historic district so anytime even even though it may not be Distributing if anything is tempted to be done on those structures it comes before us it's been deemed as contributing significantly contributing or non-contributing and in those circumstances what we really try to do you can't can't have the applicants go back and try to make it a contributing house even if its original construction was not contributing or the time frame was contributing to the historic uh nature of the historic district so what we try to do is just um apply help them by Design Elements which do not make it more egregious of a violation or a non attributing residence or structure but um obviously those structures are granted difference they're actually allowed to probably do more things clearly than a contributing structure would be able to because there's that much to preserve um and there's that again much we can do Force the applicant to change the structure in order to make it something that would be contributing or consistent some of the other hisor structures um I have a question over the last 10 plus years that you've been on the committee have you ever applied for uh grants or um tried to secure some kind of assistance even if it's just signage for your Century homes so um there were U years ago um and there was a creation of the 1990s of the historic Association Fair which is a separate nonaffiliated with the burrow organization made up with volunteers they have they have an add garden party they have different speaking functions and so on so through that organization with um approval from the council there were Century homes there was a program sentury homes or houses that you could prove were at least a hundred years old would get recognized and there were grass plaques that were generated through donations for this uh independent organization that the homeowners were given there's been some push to try to have the commission regulate that or get involved in it but it's still an association function and to your question about grants the preservation commission does not really get involved at least ours is not involved in requesting grants or anything along those lines but the association has so right now for example with operation of the burrow the independent Association is getting Ada grants through the state for the Fisk chapel and uh there are a number of other grants that are in the works to try to get State money and matching funds for the purpose of restoration and renovation to that structure but yeah you have never been involved in Grants our our roles that how how do new properties become designated I mean can individual homeowners apply and say I'd like my house to be designated or is it the the HBC itself that says we're going to designate this street or uh again there's a set historic district for that I've indicated um the um in the past the houses that have been recognized as a century home have been the works of the owner property who have come to the association and at a time when they were doing doing that initially they would have to show proof of there wasn't a det trail that showed that the house was constructed 100 years or more older it would have to show compelling reasons such as materials types of nails that were utilized all the types of you know the type of structure the uh architectural detail that would showing to be constructed in a certain area and convince the association that they were that it was a house that was years older old or older um now it's much easier because obviously can trace those things back and now that you know going from the 1990s those were Deeds that were going back to the 1890s that were mostly handwritten but once you get post the 20th century it's much easier to trace just a little more fashion so again if you can prove that you are 100 years all apply to the association get that but it's not a commission um part of the ordinance here in Red Bank is that I'll just read it's a very short sentence um about reports the commission shall prepare an annual report for the burough Council detailing all commission activities which shall be available to the public do you have a similar requirement from your commission and if you do what kind of things do you include on on that report so reporting um is usually handled in the minutes of um each meeting and obviously contained on the agenda we don't prare any general reports our memoranda of action are based exclusively on applications for some type of instruction or some type of change to Historic structure our our commission um respond responsibilities or make recommendations planning board and um try to find one that applies to what you're suggesting um make recommendations on implications for preservation of historic stri sites and any other master plan elements so there's a provision for us to make recommendations in general in general reports but we don't ordinarily do that again anything that comes up in other words we have delegates that go to the green team which is an environmental commission different other types of commissions they make reports that are contained in our minutes we have liaison for the association for vice liutenant Paul and F Chapel any discussion or interaction with the public or other committee members outside of the commission are contained in the minutes for that but if we take any formal action or if we take anything to a vote that's gen that is reported and reported memor action some much more detailed than others example this month we need every every month s agenda item so we have I think just a couple of signs the commercial District this up Tuesday which would be obviously very brief uh memorandum action just consistent with other signs but obviously seeking to demolish a building or to material change a building could be you know five six page mem the other thing also so our jurisdiction is limited to what's visible from the street from the the actual from from a public Street and so anything that happens on the inside of a structure anything that happens on the rear of a structure that would not be mpal from the street we do not have jurisdiction take no position on sometimes it becomes a challenge because we have to make a decision whether or not it's some houses are back some houses are partially visible some houses are visible depending on the season with leaves but our jurisdiction is only with Vis the street so it's mostly facade facade things that we deal with unless it's uh an application for the demolition of conru does does Fair Haven have any blue stone papers in front of their homes there are in the historic district there are there was uh some people have done it voluntarily installed their own and some uh I think probably in early 2000s there was a private public uh partnership where they gave loans I think to people and they did a beautification project and there are papers on the public sidewalks in front of the houses along Fair Road and Clay Street I don't believe that they now it's concrete sidewalks on Les part thank you as far as the guidelines um we're we're trying to come up with guidelines now and uh how did you involve the community in coming up with what those criteria or guidelines should be yeah that would coming up with the guidelines was a little bit before my time I'm a commission so I don't can't really give you a great answer on how they came up with it but I do know that you know obviously if you look to other towns and towns that have specific or very restrictive ocean grow Charleston they have very strict guidelines as to what you can and can't do um I'm uncertain whether Red Bank wants to go to that sort of that kind of a format um I think the decision was made because it was a sort of a a hot butt topic when the commission was reformed um to leave it a little bit to leave it General and subjective um and not make it a specific guideline so as to make it not so stretch down homeowners and population within the district but also to give some difference to the Commission in terms of how they interpret it which could could cause some trouble because you know in all cander um you know some of the decisions could be considered arbitrary depending on our interpretation our advisory function um and I and I think also when the the commission was reformed again it was a was a huge outpouring people in the town that didn't want a commission at all wanted completely disbanded they want you understand you know people wanting to be able to and not having any government involved they can buy a house and pay a lot of money and pay a lot of money in property taxes I don't want the government telling me what I can and cannot do with the house and uh especially Remodeling and modering structures that are buying a house that's old you want to make it newer um so there was a a huge fight it went on for years within the town and I think that's why the Reincarnation of the commiss is a little bit less rigid and structured than it could have been that what we see in in other hisor towns so we don't have anything and you know caution with that because you're stuck with your you know the board detail you you can have volumes of detail in terms of rigid classifications now question to you when you make a decision what is the appeal right so I saw in a regulatory basis an approval and there is denial is there an appeal right for dision of somebody's denied and are you advisory only or I think you're looking at the previous ordinance did you get that off the website I did yeah that's the previous ordinance so there's a more lengthier process now that was um been instituted now that well we will um repeal the entire that entire ordinance and and did a more lengthier process what is it now is are you got the appeal from the per decision you know there there are two separate functions of the commission the appeal of the permit is an appeal the commission actually renders its report to the administrative officer so the this is all Municipal DS law and the administrative officer's decisions are appealable to the Zoning Board of adjustment under 70a of the municipal man and it's a denovo appeal to the zoning word of adjustment yes so you do have you have probably little teeth in our well the you know it follows the statut gred powers yes our advis really just makes a recommendation um have U so you have you have kind application this this is a the the ordinance was r drafted municipality under when to change of government then the the ordinance was re adopted after that and so it's fairly fairly new 2024 under this ordinance right yes but all um just to answer your question previously we did do have two appeal um applications that went before and it went before the zoning board and it was a denovo decision um procedure um and so yeah we did do two appeals before so my next question um obviously probably is outdated but um it has to do with informal applications so my experience has been very favorable onal applications especially with homeowners come in have no idea they have to approve what they have to provide you know they don't know hear stories that doors a certain way a certain way so I find that the informal application procedure very very helpful to just get people to at least perfect their proofs we don't have a straw hoold also get an idea of what the temperature of the commission members are in terms of they again when they can't do things things that we don't prer things that we don't allow at all and I think it makes for a much more efficient formal application when that's done we' T people that have come in numerous times applications to get them to a point where they can make the formation and it just goes much much smoother than it would be had they come before us in the beginning and when they come come before us for a formal application for the get goo and again very mindful of the fact especially residential app for Architects planners Engineers Builders you know time this money and we don't want to become an enemy to the people and I think that most rewarding aspect has been this sort of uh give and take with the applicants and people come in with a certain plan sometimes houses are very very nice they actually use taste and a nice nice construction and a nice designed house for what our Charter is to maintain preserve the historic major of structure so those things you know very often Clash so we have had houses that Blueprints and elevations that have gone through a complete change and in the beginning the people were kicking and screaming because they spent a lot of money with their professionals getting these things done but then at the end with the advice of us and incarnations and work with the architect house that they ultimately get is not only satisfactory to us and is is consistent with the historic nature of of the district but is also much nicer house that people are Thanking us because they like what they're doing they like what the ultimate product is much more than what they originally came in so that is a very satisfying part of what we do to you know have the people satisfied and fulfill our function of having a I was going to ask about Community involvement do you have any uh education programs or training how to make an application like you said in this informal process yeah so we have a a commission secretary there's on the website there's the forms and again then if people have any questions they ask the commission secretary as to what the detail is in terms of filling out the application I tell the Secretary of people any questions to call me directly and I'll feel those questions and just assist them in terms of what what needs to be supplied not getting into any detail as far as the application itself but merely you know Supply photographs because we have both professionals say professionals Architects Builders and we also have late people so pictures worth a thousand words provide photographs not necessarily instuction drawings and things that nature because the whole mission has to be able to appreciate what's being in life so that's that's uh in terms of education and store education that you know we have the luxury of having the association can what is your relationship with the Realtors uh when they show a house do they make sure they let the potential buyer know what in the historic district yeah that's a good question because a lot of times they do not um where they just kind of uh mention it in small print if you will um and we've had people that were unaware realtors that I don't want to say misrepresented but really brush that under the carpet and do significant construction they've had to you know they had a little bit of a wayoming but uh I think that um Everybody um that most people and most Realtors now because we've been function for so long are familiar with it and I think I think there has been a movement to such for most of the reals let people let people make them aware that they were in within the district and they would have to come before us and I do get a lot of calls from people that are either looking or people that are in contract to try to find out the extent of the construction demolition that this is I guess a question maybe for our lawyer even though we're not that part of the agenda but what what is the position of posting homes for sale and and including that information on the on the posting that it's a historic it's in a historic district um I don't think that that is something the commission should be getting involved with it it's a matter of private sale between different parties you don't tell people what their zoning is they don't say you can only go to TW story house at the 20 foot set back it's just that in many communities the realators however become important part of the success of preservation because it in areas where stored homes are good value and you have a very like attractive area it it's positive so the real are but I don't think it's the role of the commission to get involved no no I I didn't think it was our role but I I was trying to get out the comment about a homeowner or somebody that's now sign a contract they submit permits or whatever and that now they find out it's a historic district is there a way of you know making sure it's mentioned there is no way for the commission to make sure it is mention because I really I mean you don't if all right so preservation is an aspect of land use you have uses Heights densities and there's no role of the government in saying to a private party in a contract your zoning only allows you to have you know a 35 foot high building so you it's not part of a real estate transaction now on the other hand a well-informed buyer will inform themselves of what The Zing provides but I can only tell you that it's probably very rare that they say what can I do here a lot of times they buy a home or buy a piece of property and the use is not permitted and they don't know there's no requirement in state law that you disclose any zoning or any restrictions it's it's really a responsibility of a buyer to do due diligence and find out what they're buying thank you we have had when I do get these calls from realtor wanting to get information and it's interesting because a lot missing their belief as what we do is very different than reality I have invited realtors in to just sit on a meeting and discuss with us what our functions are and that sort of thing I think that's be very helpful U because these sort of myths that they may have are dispelled and they realize that we actually work with the applicants much more than against them fear they kind of they don't want to get involved and they they think it's you know extraordinary these piles is not the case oh if I may I'm a little surprised that there would be no state or County our requirement to disclose what I think is very basic important information about restrictions on use of a property to ay especially in a town where a lot of the buyers that come in are looking to use properties as rental properties so is there anything we can do to look into at least within the borrow making it a requirement to disclose that information in a real estate transaction I think it's very important that the identification of areas that are historic is something that someone they come up to the planning office upstairs which they can they have you have a zoning map on the and they see on the zoning map that their area delineated as historic okay I think it is equally as important to have a close working relationship with reals there's nothing in state law that would require would would would authorize a disclosure I would have to look into it because of you know most people understand that if you you know if you're not telling people what their zoning is okay you're going to now carve out preservation as if it's you know it just it doesn't I've never really seen it done and I don't you know but you do have advisory and and educational functions that are what authorized by the land use law so you know it it you know the best thing is communication so put together a nice little packet and send it to all your leading Realtors and say this is a historic district here these are designated historic sites you know a lot of people are buying in the districts because they want to the other hand some of them don't know that they have any restrictions and so that is a good way at least to start but you would have to convince your governing body the council here that you want to do something that is really kind of unusual to to mandate in a real estate contract it's usually done by the state legislature that they do stuff like that so I I'd have to look into it I just I've never really seen anyone feel very strongly that that should be done by a government agency I just have some concerns about it because you're pulling out one particular provision and not really looking at what I think is probably a far more problematic aspect of of of of ownership and that what is the zoning loud so you know if you want to go to the council you want to go to the council and if this is something important you'd have to get it done by ordinance other than that you could do it by educational and advisory and thank you and I feel zoning falls in the category of important information to a buyer probably more important than the historical aspect uh obviously given where we are and what our focus is I'm I'm leading off that but I I think generally it sounds to me like right now the disclosure in a real estate transaction is and maybe this is a national problem a lot weaker that should be I don't disagree with you that's I don't I don't disagree with you and mandated disclosures real in real estate contracts have come about as a result of state law you have to you have to notify people that if that there were uh you know registered sex offenders you have to notify them if there are certain toxic sites within their vicinity it's done from way upstairs also I have to say that um in the zoning office we do you have if a home is extremely um preserved and a lot of um unique features are still intact I do get a lot of calls from either Realtors or potential buyers um and they ask whether or not um that structure is in a historical district or is it a historical site so once or twice I I don't get it often but just interested or new buyers they do call once in a while and ask for that the depending on how preserved that property is that your attorney do you act as Council yes my name is Michelle Donado my name is Michelle Donado and I she's very helpful president so are you a voting member of the commission no no I'm an attorney I'm just sitting as she's she's an invited guest tonight because we've got some we want to be clear about the ordinance and so so she's here to kind of help us understand more clearly what our mission is and and just what we can do with our service it's nice Le is that all the questions you have from can you be dismiss is that all the questions I wouldn't really this was really a presentation to the board I wouldn't really open it up to the public for him to be question yeah that I don't think we're going to open up this part to the public right now Cindy thank you so much much thanks very much if you have any questions or anybody feel free to give my information right great thank you very much appreciate you coming in tonight thank you but we you know if we get a if we get a question later we could always follow up and try and get the information back to the person oh yeah now oh I guess now we all know who art is and he's very helpful then you will just talk about his this one Mich okay now we'll move on to Michelle Donado who is the HPC attorney and um so I think some of us have set sent our our questions uh TR Michelle so I don't know how how do we want to follow this up I would suggest that perhaps she has some questions in advance that she could address and then if people want to add on or ask for additional clarification that we could at least we have a starting point with some of the questions and and she is prepared with those yeah I think that's a good idea we have just about 45 minutes left okay so uh the first series of questions came from Miss Cavalier and they really quite excellent questions uh there was a question regarding the recusal of members and U if there was a a minor uh application and there were only two members U I think you want to know what would happen if two members had a conflict of interest so you and there's under under the what is the case law in New Jersey where judges decide and say what can be done there's What's called the rule of necessity and in the rule of necessity if you don't if you don't have enough people to vote you can call upon other people from the commission itself to fill that vote all right so that's that and then you said uh when it's a major application at what point should the recusal be announced before debate on the motion if you have a conflict of interest you with let's say you live within 200 feet of of the property you uh it's your mother's property anyone within the third degree of consanguinity anything covered by um again there's several bodies of law addressing completive interest it's a topic that applies to all boards and it's very fact sensitive and sometimes a little bit dicey to try to iron out uh in that circumstance uh you you recuse yourself from the very outset you don't sit at this table you don't participate at all you say in the beginning and the next door to this property I'm disqualifying myself leave the table and you can go into the room or go outside thank you that's General conflict of interest not specific to being a a uh uh preservation commission your next question was under procedures for designation can the hearing be a regular meeting or does it have to be a special meeting it can be a regular meeting or special meeting as you choose there's no mandate um then in the uh next question you asked about in the annual report you asked a number of questions about the annual report would we be the best um use of an Port is to model it after what a zoning Board of adjustment is actually required to do here we put it in because they wanted to do they think it's a very helpful way to communicate so with respect to a a a zoning board they look at applications they explain what applications they have they say that maybe the ordinance should be amended because we need to address certain aspects of the application it's a very broad flexible report there's no mandate it just kind of you know what came before you what were your decisions if something did get approved as you question by uh operation of law because of uh failure to make a decision on a permit within 45 days that would be something you'd want to bring up uh and get published to the town authorities so that they could make certainly make appropriate arrangements that things would be decided okay so I just have a followup to that so the last time any listing of sites was published was 2009 and at the end there's a table of suggested additions to be considered so in the archives should there be or you know if if the committee has not taken action on something that was recommended because we don't want to start from bottom you know if if there have been suggestions in the past 15 years that I don't know about should should they be in the in these reports no you're just doing the report of the year you're doing a report of the year in which you're taking action you're not going all the way back but if there was something that would you know something you felt needed to be addressed then you could make a recommendation such as there are some additional historic sites that on shury Avenue that we'd like you to look into or there are you know you make you recommendations you don't it's not cumulative it's for that particular year okay so then maybe this question is for Shauna do we have archives of of over the last 15 years what other sites have been recommended that have not been uh you know added or there has been action taken either yay or nay on some of their recommendations that list was kind of incorporated into the main list um and that's where last year we realized that there was a lot of confusion confusion on properties were included in the designation list that weren't properly um designated and going through the entire process so that that list was then removed and we only focused on a 2009 list from the historic preservation element so I do have another list of properties that's Incorporated with our main list that you know I can separate out um so that we have it that were recommended over the years and we always thought were in um properly designated but they were not and that's why we had to do this whole procedure here and redo the entire ordinance that was one of the biggest difficulties that I had when I was asked to change the or to work with them to improve the ordinance and there were many different studies and many different properties and that all match together so currently if you look at page nine of the adopted ordinance the districts that are designated are the Broad Street historic district the Washington Street historic district and then you can uh add additional districts and sites because sometimes it's not you might have one freestanding property so those things are all something that are that you know you may want to for example in your annual report make a recommendation as to some additional properties that you would want to see designated but we don't have to wait until the end of the year to make that recommendation correct do you do not have to wait until the end of the year you can do it at any time but also just because you recommend property to be designated does not make it designated um and I think that's where the issue happens years before um so I just want to clarify that just because the commission says um if it if it's in the annual report just because it's in the annual report does not mean that it is designated as a historic site just means that the process is starting that just means that there a process should start it was ident it was identified but not designate yes has to be has to be designated by ordinance and the planning board has to have in their master plan a historic preservation element which addresses the historic significance of that property and if they do not there is a mechanism to designate it without the planning support but it is an exception to the rule and not the so it there there's a lot of piece to the p and you have to have the criteria for designation applied so it it can start here you know the whole designation process starts here and can then develop and go through the other agencies that have jurisdiction all right now you've had you you were an Eagle Eye on the issue of the um when does the commission report on a permit application so the uh original the ordinance I drafted prior to the change of government provided for what is called a strong commission somebody has a permit application they come to the commission and the commission makes the decision they're subject to appeal to the Zoning Board of adjustments but the commission made it now the ml Municipal land use law has the option of creating a weak commission that is a commission who says here's what we recommend on this permit they then send that to the planning board and the planning board makes the decision same 45 day period so when we went to split it up we had um you know a lot of people were working on this and we were trying if we were trying to get this in because you had no regulation at a certain point and 3035 was was not consistent so you are definitely an Eagle Eye and we I think that um you know it's something that we would um have to you know could be changed you just need to decide if it's 30 or 35 days because the total period of time is 45 days if the planning board does not make a decision within 45 days it's automatically improved so there's no appeal process from the historic preservation commission if the zoning board fails to respond no you're in a different you're yeah so what happens is the permit itself is decided in in this ordinance by the planning board but the first person who looks at it first group is the commission commission then makes its recommendation to the planning board and the planning board says we agree with the historic preservation commission or maybe they say we don't and the property owner if they you know doesn't like the decision whichever way it went then has the right to appeal to the zoning so it's a little complicated most people completely Mo most attorneys completely misunderstand this whole idea of the appeal to The Zing cour because technically what happens is the administrative officer is the one who's issuing the permit and call the administrative officer the mouthpiece really is no he or she has no choice they get this report they get your recommendations the planning board agrees with you and then the AO administrative officer has to do exactly what he's told he or she's told and then that decision is appealable to dis okay and then the zoning board has 45 days uh the zoning board on an appeal I think it has 45 days I'm not sure I think it may be longer let me just think it's 95 25 days is the permit review let me P yeah page 13 that's the 30 35 day discrepancy that um that that Miss cavaliere brought up and needs to be corrected that has to do with the permitted self referred from the uh administrative officer there's a total period of 45 days for when the new ordinance was put in they added the planning board in because it is not a you no longer a strong commission you're what's called a weak commission but the same 45 day period applies and so we try to split up the time that would be how much time does do you get and how much time does the planning board get so we split it up and it changed and the 35 was 30 35 Falls within that cat okay so then yeah failure to report within a 45 day period shall be deemed to constitute a report in favor of the proposed work and without conditions so failure to report within that 45 days by whom the planning board okay so then if the planning board doesn't uh report is there any uh is there any um does the hisor preservation commission have any power to then say well we don't agree with this agreement the the planning board has failed to respond what's the recourse for the hisor preservation commission you have no there is no recourse okay thank you and if it does get appeal to the zoning board which you did ask that question that's 120 days for that appe that's an appeal permit is not F all right so now um Mr con you asked about why we don't explain the general over forall benefits of a property owner becoming part of a designated area so many years ago I was representing a town that had a beautiful little historic area and it was very they they wanted to protect it but they had the usual kind of debate public debate about preservation I call it the new kid on the blond okay it is it's the newest component of land came into effect in 1995 so it's not like it's been around all time at least in with Jersey so uh you know there's a lot of dispute it's a lot of Regulation it's subjetive it can be rigid you heard this this fine gentleman explain those kinds of things so this big debate went on people all came out and room emptied out I was the attorney for the board was a plan board and everybody left there was one man he was left behind and he said and the board had voted not to pursue it because there was so much political opposition and the gentleman said you know I I buy historic books and I fix them up and I went to Island hikes which is a little Community down in Ocean County has gorgeous Victorian home and I bought a house and I fixed it all up and then the house next to me got demolished he said I'm not going to buy in a town that the historic values are not protected so that was the benefits there are people who buy historic hes there huge sections in the preservation magazines about historic hes I represented the city of planfield for 30 years we put in five or six historic districts it was the uplift of the town the most and they were beautiful homes but they got protected so that the benefits are to those who really like preservation because it can really be a a real benefit to the property value if you're not like one house sitting out there and everybody else is Wrecking theirs so that's the concept and I find that preservation properly drafted and propably implemented is a real benefit to the community for example um I when I Kate May is like I'm very proud of because you go there and those homes are beautifully maintained they have wonderful design guidelines that's the next thing that's going to happen here they worked on integrating the historic areas with the underlying zoning so that the zoning and the historic areas are compatible and it's a beautiful town you walk around people you can't to buy a property there if you wanted to hardly anything for sale so you know it's it's it's that's that a little bit more difficult sometimes in a commercial context so that's why in you know you have your Broad Street area that it can be a little more difficult I think now I think you also asked about why there was no um age okay let's so so in New Jersey in the land St and you design you're going to have store preservation you get to decide the designation criteria so we have National register we have state Register which national register regulates Federal action State register it modeled after the national register and that regulat state Municipal and County Action that affects histor resources okay so the national register criteria for designation and evaluation does not include age the national register has a kind of a an approach that says that they don't you know as a rule they do not generally accept property to be designated if it's less than 50 years old they have some exceptions to that there's no minimum requirement in you know in other than that it's a restriction it's not doesn't broaden it so we just follow here the national and state Register criteria did not put in age if what do you want to say that a house has to be a certain minimum age in order to be qualified like the national register you don't have to do that because it's you have you are making your designation decisions that that that you is New Jersey is a home rule state municipalities get to choose chose subject to complying with the mpal land use law and other laws that might affect land use they get to make a decision with like to do but you have that choice do you want age you want to say there's a minimum age my my thought was um you know because Red Bank has so many homes that are built before 1930 that that Collective group of homes is really what gives the town character rather than any one say uh historic site or it's it's actually the collection of all the houses together that make it a a beautiful town of character so what would be the Harmon saying you know everything from 1930 and earlier would be uh possible uh designated areas Okay so it's not quite that broad I don't think and really we're going into the it's less of a legal issue then it is a a like a a consultant preservation issue age in and of itself is not an indication of historic value and will not get you designated the only thing on the national state Register that it does is to say that for most kinds of sites not not it's not a complete rule it's a rule with some permutations is that you have to be 50 years old so but it is not age even if it is built before 1930 doesn't mean it would be qualified to be designated that's why they do surveys called historic surveys you actually are supposed to do a survey that's one of your obligations that's true so um I wouldn't concentrate so much on as as I would what it is about the the architecture the layout the design that makes that something worthy of protection that's how the preservation Consultants approach it so I have a follow to that so one of the things that we're talking about is re really looking at all of the properties on table three of the element that was drafted in 2009 um so Liam and I have just kind of walked around town and looked at everything on there um there are some duplicates there are some uh that are listed that no longer exist that are just now bigon Lots or something has replac that so we're trying to clean that up but one of the things that we have been talking about and and I hope this is permissible um is listing whether a particular property is contributing or not contributing to a historic district so so that designation being a part of a district or an individual property would still be listed as historic even though it doesn't look from the outside historic anymore so we would list that as non-contributing to that district is that something that so I mean okay so let's assume that you're doing survey right a survey which is your you know that's kind of what you're needing I I could you know I'm just going around town and and what you probably do well to do is to go to the store preservation office stateus store preservation office and ask them for the survey form that they use that's used for the national state Register there's certain things that you would do you would take a photograph you would look through the deed records you'd find out when it was built you'd look at its architecture does it still have things and they list them as contributing and non-contributing and I think they used to call them key but they don't have key key you might have some really landmark structures the New Jersey land us kind of puts them all together you could call them EI anything you want but so you would list that and then it defines what is the identifying characteristic of this of the of the district what are the charactery features of that building itself so there were it's all a professional kind of very professional approach to trying to identify what is what is the value of the property and is so now you get a district and you the B boundary of the district is is established which is probably the hardest thing because you really need a really good professional to do that and some of the people I know who did that always used to say the boundar is the toughest within the boundary you have non-contributing properties that means that it doesn't add to the character of The District it is generally and widely accepted that you do not exclude non-contributing properties from the district what you do is you then because they could sometimes they're non-contributing because they had beautiful trim on the windows and they had beautiful slate roof and they had really nice character defining features all of which were destroyed somebody took them all off okay so they had nothing there it just looked like and it can a building that came about in the area of the importance of the district could lose its character okay becomes non-contributing you regulate them don't create what is called a Swiss cheese District that's what a lot of people would call all a district where you say here's the district and we're taking out this non contributing property and this non contributing has all these little holes in it was what they put back could be worse than what's there so we have minimal guidelines in this ordinance for how you evaluate on an application a non-contributing site on page 19 and you know it it it you know and it does have some guidance but you you know one of the things that I have stressed and probably until I got counil blue in the face is you need design guidelines meaningful guidelines because those design guidelines become the way for you to harness your decision making within you know meaningful ways that help and actually help property I mean I know I know for a fact I got call from people thank God you made them do those guidelines they were so helpful because now you own a piece of property is Preservation a burden to you I don't know anything about it I don't know what I'm supposed to do I didn't know I was supposed to save my slate roof but if I can go to the town hall and say what are your design guidelines and it says here's what you do I have some guidance but they can also give you guidance as to what you want to do to change things it could be very constructive if if if ifed cor it I I just want to add um speaking of the survey as you were saying the form um if in the document I think I sent to everyone um except for the new members and I apologize I'll send it to you too um in the Washington Street District inventory it actually is the the survey form you were talking about um so if you want to go through that and it does go through like the conditions of each property is it in excellent excellent shape physical condition register um elig ility threats to decide things like that which um again is the model off of the national survey so we do have that for the Washington Street district and I believe for the Broad Street District um so if you go back into that you'll actually see the survey that was done for those the existing District that's there as for the design guidelines um it is in the budget to get it done and I'm actually applying for Grants um through mcrp um um for funding to get the design guidelines done by a profressional um I I have a kind of a related question to same thing uh about what we've been talking about in the new Master Plan adopted February 6 2023 on page 63 under locally designated historical districts and landmarks it just says TV D to be determined I guess right so there was um it was amended to include to say that um the districts that were in the 2009 historic preservation element those are the ones that um they'll be referred back to so we did amend the um his that section to include to refer back to the 2009 historic Pres element so that is in that version I think that's the before I printed it before we um yeah we amended it yes that's called the historic preservation so you can have properties that are identified as historic if properties are identified as historic in the historic preservation element but may not be designated by ordinance so when they're not designated by ordinance but they are in the master plan you still have the right to your advisory report on development applications there is no permit review function that's the distinction under the statement any other questions from the board members for the attorney thank you for coming thank you okay thank you very much Michelle I'm gonna pack up all right so we'll move on to well Michelle if you could just stick around for just in Casa just to talk about the I mean if the board members have any have any questions about um like deregistering um designating a his designating and how they go about um prospective designation that process all right so that's a yeah okay so what how does that come about who wants to D designate well we're refer to the list that margerie brought up and so there's some properties on there that are non-contributing and or have been demolished so we're we wondering as far as cleaning up the list is it better to leave them on on the list for reference for for future reference are they within a historic district yeah I think that that was the Swiss CH metaphor that she was using right that and that's my takeaway leave them in the survey and then just say that they are non-contributing I think you said that we are on the right approach there yes all right so are these properties already designated in the district within yeah so they're in a district and they they're in a district and their status has changed since the designation they're still within the district when they would let's say they came to here to have some kind of an approval for something they would establish that they are non-contributing because either they no longer exist or their character defining features have been negatively impacted then you would just apply the non-contributing criteria and and the design guidel so that's that's what I was asking about that you don't see designated I wouldn't recomend so leave them in and not even leave them in and not even list them as non-contributing so you can perform the survey update your survey you always have the power to do your survey it's on do one of your listed one of your listed why it go off because only two only two mics can be well One mic now it used to be two mics can be on now it's One mic can be on at the same time that's people can't fight with okay so the the survey can you can update that survey as as part of your ongoing planning responsibilities as you choose to do so you can identify it as non contributing otherwise somebody comes before you and they said house on this lot was nice contributing house it burned down it's not there if the survey doesn't say it you still find out what it is so if if you want to update the survey I think that's an excellent thing I do strongly recommend that you also prepare your own rules as to how you want to operate this is your commission and you can have informal reviews they're very very helpful I agree 100% and just you know it help it'll help you because I I don't there anyone here if Paul you on the previous commission has anyone here ever worked on a board or a commission before so you all new no I was on actually I was on the historic commission twice past 12 years but no for that very fact we used to have people come in sorry we used to have people come in and do an informal review and I you know it's nice to hear him suggest that because it's one way to get even if somebody's not in the historic district they they own old home an old home and they want to do the right thing so they still come to you and at least give them that advice and at least that word helps get around other folks so it's it's a positive I agree with you I agree with you 100% um I another question we have a actually a situation today where um someone removed the Slate Earth off of their house uh without coming for the sord preservation commission um and we're we're not sure what to do so all right so first thing of all you're not an enforcement agency so the unfortunate part is that somebody either didn't know should have known whatever they did they did not come before you slate groups are perhaps the most difficult aspect of of being able to require because they are so costly and they are just so difficult to to build so you first what you can do from this is to number one amongst yourselves try to decide what would you do if they did come to us first and said we have to replace this roof now there are some Modern substitutes for slate roofs they look like plastic roofs decides what you want to do but it there I think there are two really problematic aspects Roofing is the worst and I was I was was with a friend tonight who is a preservation consultant she has been for many many years and so I said what do you because sha gave me a little bit of a heads up that this had happened and and what do you do in terms of your design guidance do you mandate that somebody had to produce a slate roof and it's it's really difficult because it's very expensive so you want to decide what you really think you would want to do but sometimes you know a similar color dark R you know because otherwi it's just it's just just the other one that can be difficult to well but is easier to resolve is is siding you know uh there was a woman she's no longer alive she was really the one I first met when we began to fight for the historic preservation law in New Jersey and she was just she was really she was from Princeton she just knew preservation inside out she was a consultant not a lawyer she said you know I'm really having a hard time with siding because I go in and I look and I have to do the knock test I can't even tell what's so important about siding is they used to come in back in the 50s and take all the trim off and all the you now they don't do that you can put siding on a build on our building and it's not wood and hard to tell that it isn't as long as they maintain the trim and don't destroy other features like that so that's why it's so you know even though you didn't get your professional in yet remember you're the decision makers and you have to real you should like look at what is it that we would want if that person came to you in advance and they said a slate roof is going to cost me $150,000 I put this I'll put a nice roof what color do you want and I put that kind of roof so what if what if we would have said uh get uh engineer to look at it and see if you can repair it for $2,000 and and they did that but now it's gone so I mean but you're not enforcement Okay so do anything the town can bring them for violating the ordinance and as I understand it they have been notified that they're in violation but you can't we have we have to give a report though to to the planning board I think because of the so they are minor work um I determined that it was a minor work so it goes before the minor Work Commission committee um and so the minor work committee for the ordinance would make a decision and then I would have to report it back to the planning board and the planning board would based on the ordinance would um either confirm or deny it based on what you said okay so with a minor you have to be really careful PA so there's certain there's certain things you can't have as a minor you can't demolish relocate remove you can't put an addition on the building you can have new construction if it's a request for approval f is signs lighting doors windows roofs Paving exterior shaing or streetcape it has to comply with the adopted design guidelines for the Improvement proposed no design guidelines well we have the national we we have the Secretary of the Interior standards that have and they're Bard they're just a placeholder so one would go to section something H5 on page 19 and the guidelines in criteria for plan review says the exterior design Arrangement texture and materials proposed to be used but following criter shall be used all exterior elevations including the roof must be maintained and new construction must be compatible with existing districts and surrounding areas in kind or compatible exterior colors must be utilized in kind or similarly compatible building materials must be utilized so I don't think it compli with the guid these are our doct these are what we have as what I call a placeholder so so so you have to be careful with minor it's not it doesn't cover all groups it doesn't cover everything it covers those particular things that apply so if the person came in and said it's the same color it's a similar ilar compatible building material I do I know a lot of boards who prove that fake slate it's F it's like a before but that's you know so that those that's that's why it the minor still requires compliance with this this is Broad because we don't have adopted gun right but when you do that you when you go to adopt the guidelines you're going to want to really address those kind so the issue here also is that there's two there's two different types of root there were two different types of root the the porch root had had already been replaced with um ashalt and so now the the gentleman wants to match his ashalt roof by taking down the Slate to the two so which one is in kind if the the what was the roof that was there I would say is the one the majority of the roof that was there so take the RO you know I answer the question about whether or not it's appropriate to say someone what do you look at repair that's a very that that's the what what is the model of what you do for preservation it is it this not not a uniform construction definition but a preservation definition of ordinary maintenance and repair you repair first before you replace that's how you keep historic buildings in good shape and that is why we put that in this ordinance so if it's truly if it's truly the same materials the same type Etc they're exempt they don't they go in they with the documentation they prove they meet the criteria and that's it because you you are encouraging what federal you know secondary standards but who can't unless the Town Council decides to bring them to court to force them to remove that group if you don't think it should stay you have no power to do that you're not an inforcement agents you are you just have the powers that the look in you okay but in our report we can say that we we recommend that they should have first tried to repair the Slate and that's our recommendation so the the planning board can now make a decision thank you five minutes left so so that we can I'll just stay the perspective designation okay so all right now I would like to um those respect I designated um properties and districts so marger and I want to thank margerie publicly for all the work she's done uh already on on trying to figure out which properties are contributing and which are not she spent a lot of time pacing the streets of Red Bank so thank you Mar and part of what she discovered while she was uh walking around was on Irving Place again we have about four minutes left but uh do you want to you want to elaborate on what you found Mar okay well it it's a beautiful Street if anybody hasn't walk down in a while it's beautiful Street and the houses are of similar era but different unique um and only three houses are designated on that street the the other thing that's on that street it it appears to me I mean I'm not an archaeologist but I think it's got the only Carriage Block in town that Still Remains so if you're not familiar it's just a block and this one even has uh the doctor's name on it that allowed you when you were Al lighting from a carriage it's not as much of a a dip to get you down to the street so um um so it's the only one that I've seen in town so so I thought that that would be something that we should should look into um the other two things that I passed around were the library which is very associated with our industry in town the Eisner home or what would become the Eisner home eventually is not designated as a historic site but I also serve on the library board we have a meeting tomorrow uh to find out a little bit more about if there already limitations on that the other thing that has always intrigued me and I don't know if it's going to get this far is the globe Hotel um Randy Gabrielle and just spoke at the library and he has a new book out called Lost M County and in it um he has a picture of the globe hotel as it was when it was Ed in 1840 um and I'll just pass that down if you haven't seen it so so I was always wondering you know it says the globe Hotel on it says established then it has nothing underneath it you know what's what's with that so according to gabri Ellen um it is modeled after the hotel that was there that burnt down in 1936 and some books say that it is um that's the only thing that remains is the bar in the dining room but according to him it was reconstructed and so I don't know if that's why established doesn't have a a year underneath it but according to the ordinance the way I read it is that it represents something that was there that was very historic in the 1840s and Beyond and whoever built the the are try to keep that in line so it's it's one of those things that could be considered a vacant property but it is very much a part of our history that should be in some way listed somewhere that it existed so so those are the things that I think we could work on and and it seems to me that every year we should at least take stop of where we are and and do something about it so and there's a process proc oh yeah there's a process the property owners would be notified that we're interested in designating it and would be able to to come and talk about it you know so go forward okay yeah thank you Margarie so so um yeah so I get we'd like to announce that we'd like to make a formal proposal that the Irving Place be um uh we present that as a a formal designated research site I guess okay do you want to actually recommend to the planning board and the governing body no we want to start the process of of designation we want to conduct a survey documented as a historic object because the law says that a historics it defines a historic site and it's very very broad because it includes any real property man-made structure natural object or configuration of anything of historical archaeological cultural or architectural so you want to be able to document that it needs any part of that definition make it and and I would strongly recommend you get a survey sheet and from now on you take the survey sheet and use that this is this is a piece of one from that you have in your you know I got it from some of the papers here in s and follow that criteria because now you have it all set in line you do it according to so the 50 odd houses on that street other than the three that are already designated would have to complete that yes if you want to do a district correct Michelle well a districts are harder because you got to figure out where the boundar is going to go when you say the three there's three Street just that street there three designated three designated house already on that street from the 2009 master um element so there in the 2009 historic preservation element they're not designated they're in the historic preservation they're this on this list and they're not okay so so um I would recommend to you that you try to do it a little comprehensively so you don't get all you know involved but you you know it could because it can easily be confused what you're trying to do so for example shaa said you trying to do a district BR Hardy to do a district because you got to figure out where you're putting your boundaries and I I don't do that they have to have a certain degree of building with Integrity so you just want to do individual site what I'm saying is every house on that block is public every single house that's Irving Place Irving Place and it goes from Broad Street to map Street W Maple Avenue okay so you might have a district you might be defining the boundaries as you speak yeah which would mean that you could you know that you would follow you know first survey it and you kind of have it in your mind already so take well I mean it it would tear me apart if somebody bought one of these houses pour it down and put like I don't know like a square box in there yeah so that's that's so so you you the first thing you want to do is see it just usually done by professional hisor consult not a lawyers and I would buy them lunch every time they were in town well sh U the people who did the most recent master plan for the bar do they have like a historic preservation person a lot of these firms I mean you might be able to just get somebody that come out come out there you know draw the district boundaries say is this is what you what you have just said about Irving Place is it's like a little mini District okay and um you know they could you know I mean it it is something that I can person Al do yeah a professional and I can I make a motion to extend the meeting so we have any public comments you don't have to extend the meeting just keep going until I mean the meeting doesn't end until you adjourn it okay well I thought there were something I mean we usually it's a cut off time for like any thank you thank you so much the Mama's county Historic Site inventory which is is all digitized on on the County website probably has every single one of those houses in there survey that's what Gail told me tonight yeah okay you know Gail I used to work with her oh yeah okay so that's why I know about it so so they have they they used National register survey and I believe that those documents that I they came from that so I didn't know that they had that on there so that that save yourself some time all right Co good thank okay I think you want public comment now so then you open you motion to open public for public comment you need a motion second okay can I get a motion to open the meeting to public comment motion second someone to second second V all in favor all in favor oos oos that's it okay I then you call for the public okay anyone want to say anything from the public please if you can just state your name and your address just clearly into the mic last I didn't button no there's no red button it's just pull it close yeah um and we're in 20 Irving Place um so two questions first uh after I bought my house discovered that it is in the historic element of the master um but now it sounds like it maybe in there but not more than is there a way I can find that out it does say on the element that I have it does have a column that says approved okay and and uh give me a minute to find your hes I I thought it was [Music] 2004 Irving here it is Irving Place 20 2005 yes according to this it was appr 2005 yeah yes so so this is what I learned today that it was approved to be in the element but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was approved by the Committees counil the council so so this is this was my comment earlier about unfinished business kind of stuff like what's in the archives how come some of these are listed how come some of these are listed twice you know like why do we you know so there's no way so if I want something to the facade of my house what will happen with that it's not clear whether come here not if it's not an approved house counil I'm right let me explain sir let me just explain this board this commission has two separate Powers one is to comment if you went it before the planning board or zoning board for variant the other is to consider permits in order to consider permits that is you want to change something on your house the property has to be in the ordinance adopted by the burrow Council as a historic CER District if it is not in an ordinance and currently all we have is Broad Street and Washington Street it's historic preservation element of the master plan it is not an ordinance so if I can't find it in Red Bank code the Red Bank code depository that that it's not it is not not regulated by the burrow in its ordinance so I so I don't mind if I file a permit for the unfortunately that's the case um the other thing is I appreciate what you said about her repl I also love all of the houses on it um uh but I hope that part of your review plan is to talk to people who live on herbing place um because there are uh I mean becoming historic home has costs a lot of money it costs a lot of money to replace now we love our house we want to keep it the way it is and it is costing us a ton of money not every family that lives there will be able to do that and so you know when we have the choice of spending you know when we had to repair our Windows uh every contractor every window contractor we talk to rip and replace you don't want some windows yeah can't um no we can't fix So eventually we found a company I think they're Ender who would come and do Reserve time with them six months ahead spent a lot of money to fix the windows for you Lup um but that's outside what most people can do the slate roof I think it's a great example too like buy a slate roof told me how to put another slate on I would sell you know I don't have that much fun so it's uh please talk to the people because I not everyone will be happy I have to say I'm not eager to have my house uh regulated as a historic home I would kind of like all the other houses on the street to be regulated though so I may not be opposed to the district because um as you said being manage for a homeowner is person next to you and ruin their old house the value yours uh but as far as me as as a homeowner I I don't want to come I don't want to have your opinion on my house so you know I love my historic house I want keep it history but don't really want to beant so then we would have we would be required to notify each um property owner um that we're considering them and they would have an opportunity when the presentation is being made um to come just like you did today and voice their opinion on whether or not they want their property to be included in the um in the historic district now my question for Michelle would be if that property owner says no I do not want my property like Dan shows up at the present and says I do not want to be in the historic um District what does that mean um for the commission they we cannot can we put the um that property or include that property or do we have to cut them out at the district the the C the historic preservation if the commission can say that it the property as a you meet criteria for designation they would then go the planning board if the planning board agreed and adopted the preservation element of the m plan again because that's the old preservation element there's a new one and um and then it would go you know it there's no owner consent required on the federal level there's owner consent required but not on the local in fact there are many what preservation is a debatable issue and no one will dispute that I said earlier there are some people who are very much in favor and some people people who are not so it's a property rights I mean if it does become historic district you would have the same again I here's one thing that I think would happen just like you see on Washington Street where it says historic district that there would be some signage that would would announce it as a historic district you know so I mean historic district you get well that's I think temporary that's just try and and tell people you're you're nuts like you know sometimes people go the wrong way down one way streets you know so but yeah no I think they're just just like when they when they made a a certain intersection four-way stop on uh Oakland I think it was they left up those signs for a month just to try and train people so I mean so from what I'm understanding just so that the public has it clear we can still proceed even if the property owner comes out and says that I don't want my property included the commission can still move forward on every single level but if the planning board decides that based on the public output um um response yeah the public input besides that there it's not to be a district then if they vote no to placing it to having designated as a district then what does that mean for the for the commission the council can still adopt it if they want Council can still adopt it council's the final decision okay I just want it on a record thanks for they have to make same kind of findings the council were to decide that they want to do it regard of the the fact that it's not in the current reservation element similar to adopting The Landing ordinance that's not consistent with the to State the reason that's follow certain procedures okay thank you okay so we so we're gonna go ahead with the um urban place historic district uh well I'll do start working on that okay okay the library still in public com is there ask for another public okay any more public comments no and now you vote to close public okay so I move the motion to close the public comments second second okay okay and then all in favor all in favor I any opposed okay and then do you want to close out the meeting um is there anything else anyone wants to say okay so I motion toose second all in favor all in favor okay meeting is closed your not there