we call order meeting of San frity commission for Monday June 10 2024 first order of business is legislative prer by Reverend Eric Williams of St Paul Missionary Baptist Church followed by good evening everybody let's go before the Lord in prayer Heavenly Father we come to your throne of grace at this time in the name of your son Jesus giving you glory giving you honor giving you praise Lord I just first want to say thank you for everyone that's here tonight father God thank you for how you watched over us through this day journey of life and Lord now as these meetings receive father God I thank you right now for your presence being here Lord I pray that everything that will be done tonight shall be done so decently and in order I thank you Father God for these elected officials father God that represent us here in the city of Sanford thank you for all father God that in attended tonight Lord I Thank you for watching over them as we each travel back to our homes I thank you that we'll arrive there safely I thank you Father God that everything that'll be done in this meeting tonight father God will continue to further the development of the beautiful city of Sanford I thank you for each department that represented here father God of which I'm an employee here at the city of San Fern it's our honor I thank you for how you watch over us as we work diligently throughout the day Lord how you keep us safe out of Harm's Way I pray for the police department I pray for the def Department I pray for Public Works Parks I pray for every Department that's plays A Part here and what goes on in the city of sford most importantly Lord I pray for the citizens I pray for families that's represented here I pray father God that you continue to watch over us here in the city of Sanford thank you that we continue to grow together we ask these things now in Jesus name amen flag the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation God I withy andice for all thank you Pastor we have a couple of um presentations tonight first is presentation of fla Municipal Communications Association to the city of sord good evening with a holder Chief Communications and cultural Affairs and administrator for the city of Stanford I wanted to share with everybody that I am bringing two Awards back from the Florida League of cities Florida Municipal communicators Association and it is a certificate of excellence in government Communications you have the clicker right there sorry so I just want to share real real briefly what the municipal Communications Association is it was founded in 2018 the Florida Municipal communicators Association is Professional Network of individuals who provide Communications leadership and support in Florida's cities towns and Villages the FMCA offers Communications professionals opportunities to learn share and develop their innovative solutions for the municipalities they serve we sent out a press release the other day about the uh achieving the government of Excellence of excellence in government Communications and um realizing and recognizing exemplary work by local government Communications offices and here's the certificate it's over there as well and I'm presenting that on behalf of the city of Sanford to ourselves basically so um we had several check boxes in order to receive the certificate of of Excellence I wanted to share that with everybody it's not just like they gave us an award uh you have to have a verified social media account we have several Facebook Twitter Instagram and YouTube we have mobile responsive website sanfordfl.gov and this goes for all of the the citizens and residents in the audience please um this is for your benefit as uh Communications for the city of Stanford Stanford connects we have a mobile app it's a reporting app as well for all for all of our um like potholes S Walk repair street light outages Etc we recommend that you download The sord Connect Mobile app it's a free app on your cell phone they Appo at least one full-time Communications professional and I'm speaking on behalf of Lisa holder there she is we conduct an annual state of the city and we do that every year with the Chamber of Commerce here in Sanford reports about all the Great accomplishments the city of Sanford does every year we live stream the commission meetings we also live stream our art and Chambers events as well we also do citizen Outreach educational materials offered in more than one language we do offer educational Outreach materials in Spanish we promote the Florida city government week which happens in October the third week in October and what that is is an Initiative for city government to share what we do during that particular week with our schools our community and town halls Etc promoting city [Music] government we have an updated current media report and a reporter list so we make sure that when we send our PR releases out we have an updated media list to get the word out to the traditional media agencies we have an established brand guideline called Stanford style which shows us and several employees and our our um leadership how to use the city's brand just like Burger King Nike um you know McDonald's has a brand we have a brand as well and that's the city of Sanford brand and it's a marketing guidelines and we have that available for the public and for the city we have Outreach programs to communicate information with our communities for example we have Citizens Academy and we have a mayor's youth Council one of the only cities in seol county that has had a Citizens Academy and a youth Council since going on approximately eight years now we were the leader in both of those um organization outreach program we have uh also now I would like to share in addition to the certificate of excellence we have brought back two awards for the uh Florida Municipal communication and one is that one of those were the honorable mention for best podcast episode water meter replacement project part one so the city of Sanford has a podcast and we have an award that we were presented and this is a Statewide award here it is everybody this is and also as well which is a you could listen to Stanford says please download free City Podcast you'll hear all this information you don't just have to come to City commission meetings to hear City information you could follow us all the time uh 7 days a week 24 hours a day basically we won an award honorable mention for the best City website which is a huge accomplishment and so we don't have our it team here but um I wanted to share that with everybody we have the city of Stanford honorable mention for for best City website and this is this is we there's 412 cities in the state of Florida and so to be recognized like this is a is pretty we should P ourselves on the back we got the best out of 4 well about 200 entries I'm just saying there are 400 but there were 212 entries for these Awards and city of Stanford was chosen as honorable mention and so that just goes to show you all the work that's done behind the scenes that that website is hosted by WordPress and was done internally by staff um in Our IT department and so that's our way of communicating to the world when we're not here and so it's critical and and we're on the right track and I'm proud to present these Awards to you as the city's Communications um administrator excellent thank you congratul congratulations mention all of this wouldn't be possible without F thank Youk you it's all right it's okay [Music] going we're doing the um we're going to do the wow presentation I can get Michael Bradley [Music] everybody and [Music] [Music] Sabrina all right um when to read read an email from Sabrina Benton who is a a former employee purpose of this email is to request that you acknowledge a job well done by one of your employees i' would like to take this opportunity to commend one of your employees Mr Michael Bradley on his observation and handling of a dire situation a couple of weeks ago my mom was downtown Sanford on the lakefront I think the son and her illness had taken it's toll in her she had already called me to come and pick her up upon finding her sitting with her head downward might notice and asked her if she was feeling okay and she answered him not really he asked if he could call someone for her she informed him that she had already called me to come pick her up and that I was on the way she told him that he would not leave he informed her that he would not and that he would stay with her until someone arried I appreciate that he recognized the situation and acted accordingly this world needs more people like him I hope the city continued their program of recognizing employees and would appreciate you would submit his name and so on on behalf of the city this WOW award wow thank you everybody and Sabrina thank you so much for taking the time uh to to notice uh Mike and all he does for the city and taking that extra moment with your mom who we we hope is feeling much much better now Mike has been with us for a number of years and we're lucky that he came home back to our department uh after going with police for a while but Michael does an outstanding job with us uh just for the city as a whole you'll see him nights weekends until 2: a.m. downtown he's out on the Riverwalk he's downtown cleaning up and making sure everything is in great order after all of us have gone home so Michael thank you so much for all you do um I couldn't be happier to be part of you and the team that you're on and I just want to say thank you again to Sabrina and I know Benson and Robert feel the same and I'm sure the Commissioners as well absolutely few words he y want to why don't you put why don't you he want to get in there with you there you go all right thank you congratulations congratulations congratulations [Music] actually I have a proclamation on um behalf of the and family come up all right so whereas ala Howard moved with her family to sford in 1907 at the age of four where her father da Howard worked in agriculture Supply selling fertilizer and supplies to to Farmers whereas in 1933 ala Howard married Hamilton Bisby after graduating from Queens College in Charlotte North Carolina she then taught at semal high school and saer middle school for 35 years teaching many subjects and many of Sanford's children retiring in 1968 whereas ala and Hamilton Bisby raised two children in sford daughter beatric BBE Bisby guide who is here with us today and Son Hamilton ham Joseph Bisby who are raised on Bay Avenue where Navy Pilots used their house to line up from the runway whereas in 1973 a Mina Howard VY purchased land along lakon Road believing that the drive along the lake from Interstate 4 was a front door to hamper and should look nice whereas BB busy guide and her family wish to donate the property to be preserved for future generations and for this front door to be left as a natural Legacy as ala desired whereas the city joins with the Disney and gu families to honor BB as she celebrates her 90th birthday this year and we as the city commission and the mayor on behalf of the residents of the city of s wish to express their heartfelt gratitude and appreciation for this significant land contribution which will provide Green Space Conservation Area and protection for the St John's River basin for future Generations whereas the donated land located along simal Boulevard between The Preserve and the Town Homes at Lake Monroe and known as BB point will now continue to preserve natural habitats thus contributing to the quality of life and the well-being of our citizens in Central Florida now therefore I are at wood by the virtue of the authority of to me as the mayor of the city of Sanford Florida you hereby Proclaim that the city of Sanford extends its deepest thanks to the busy and gu families for their outstanding generosity and Community spirit and that that donated property by City commission action action should be recognized as visy point in honor of this remarkable donation and a commemorative sign be installed at buy point to permanently acknowledge and celebrate the generosity of the visb and God families thank I would like to take an item out of order on the uh agenda I believe it's 8C okay Mr Bard Mr Mayor memb of the city commission the city received an offer about a month ago L daughter of Miss to donate piece of property to the city for conservation the Paro is a property 9 acres in size and generally located near Lakeman Road between the town homes of Lakeman Road and The Preserve subdivision the city staff recommendation City commission approved the resolution of 3247 which accepts the donation of the land motion and a second any discussion all in favor any oppos thank [Applause] you um also on the the back table is um sort of a more extended history of the BBY family in sford if anyone would like to pick up a copy we have some extra copies for [Music] the oh here's a mock up how old is 11 mons thanks thanks [Music] thank you smile thank you [Music] I just to say thank you very much to City s s is one of my most favorite towns in the United States I just have such a long history with sa and she Tau fre years here and she too truly loved s and I just want to tell that she passed it on down to me and I do I love s more than any of you can think you so great and so nice to have honor of me and my family so I just say thank you to everyone of you in this audience that that has come have come to see who in the world is being so I just want to let you know that iing you love it that you came and that it's just such a nice [Applause] onor thank you thank you so much thank you how many VI we still live in s in the area in Orlando almost everybody good great good to know the rest of us are in Jacksonville oh wonderful safe trip thank you thank you um speaking before the commission to facilitate public infut you plan on speaking um on an item we would ask that you complete one of the yellow citizens input forms which are found by the back door and turn those to the CL on this side also ask that you state your name and address for the record and speaking the public will be given an opportunity to speak on any item before the city commission during the regular meeting before the consent agenda I will ask if anyone wishes to speak on any of those items during public hearings um there be an opportunity to speak one each of those and there in regular items um you would like to comment if you have not turned in the yellow card just raise your hand when we get to that item and be recognized there a three minute time limit for each pictor for each item except person reference or an organization and presting it to judicial hearing citizen participation at the end of the meeting individuals are um May address the commission on any topic um and there's a 5 minute time limit for those that brings us to the amends of the May 13 2024 work session regular meeting move to approve motion second discussion all in favor any oppos anyone on AUD wish to speak to any item on the consc agenda consern agenda to the commission items a through L fav labed in okay okay all in [Music] favoring turn serve time I'll read the statement once tonight with regard to agenda items involving the CI judicial process Commissioners must disclose disclose all expar Communications including the name of communicator and the time and place and substance of communication written Communications must be disclosed and made a part of the record the commissioner investigation site visits and re an receipt of expert opinions must also be disclosed and may part the record persons who have opinions contrary to those expressed in the next part communication May refute or respond to the communication at the hearing when they make the presentation parties to this proceeding of the city staff and the applicant and they are subject to cost examination unless give their testimony under V other party status are also subject to cost examination persons who is only participating by providing comments are not subject to false examination and are not sworn in as evidentiary Witnesses the qualifications of City staff required the agend materials all testimony and evidence provided to the city commission must be competent material and substantial and theal law a guide to qu ey judicial proceedings has been published on City's website and are available on the table at the back of the room where the people request okay that brings us to Second reading of ordinance 4778 C thank you mayor this ordinance is entitled an ordinance city of Sanford Florida implementing the state statutory mandate to prepare business impacts estimates prior to the adoption of proposed ordinances pursuing to section 66414 Florida Statutes providing for legislative findings and intent providing for implementing administrative actions providing for a savings provision providing for contct providing for cability providing forication correction of scrier errors and providing for an effective B Mr Mayor member of the city commission beginning October 1 of 2023 as a result of the enactment of the state statutes the city of Sanford administratively implemented the law but a desired to enact a legislative requirement to do so to ensure compliance with the statutes as other jurisdictions it is therefore staff's recommendation City commission do ordinance number 4778 this is a public hearing anyone from the audience wish to speak to this item anyone iose bring commission for Action approve second second any further discussion all in favor any oppos second reading of ordinance 4779 this ordinance is entitled an ordinance city of sord Florida an by voluntary petition certain real property generally addressed as 1807 Beach Avenue located contiguous to the city of Sanford in accordance with the voluntary indexation visions of section 17144 the statutes redefining the ground of the city of s includes that property amending the boundaries of the city accordance provisions of section 16631 for the statutes for fining providing for conditions right the clerk to record the ordinance with the clerk Serv cour with the chief administrative office of s County with the Department of State providing for the legal description of the map finding for incorporation of that exhibit repealing all ordinances in contct with providing for cability providing forication taking of administrative actions and providing for Effective Mr Mayor memb of the city commission City staff have reviewed the request foration and found the request to meet the criteria set for of the foror the statutes it is therefore the city staff recommendation City commission adop ordance number 4779 annexing the property as legally described into the city of San is say a public heing anyone from the audience wish to speak to the side no close the public he move to approve motion second any further discussion all in favor I any oppos pass to Second romance 47 a this ordinance is entitled an ordinance city of San Florida aning petition certain real property generally addressed is 1695 Alexander Avenue located contigous city of Sanford for volunteer anation provisions of section 171 044 Florida statute the bound the city of sanord to include property amending the boundar of the city and accordance to the provisions section 16631 the statutes fing for finding providing for conditions City cler for the ordinance clerk Circuit Court the chief administrative office of s County the Department of State providing for a legal description of that providing for incorporation of that exhibit raling all ordinances in Conflict here with providing for cability providing forication taking the administrative action provid for effectiv Mr Mayor members of City commission City staff will review the request foration and found the request to meet the criteria set forth in the fla statutes it is therefore the staff's recommendation City commission D ordinance number 4780 anding the property leing describ into the city of San he this is a public hearing anyone from interest to speak [Music] to Second motion second discussion all in favor any oppos answer Mr Mayor I would like to point out that we all have roof work done so if you hear sounds that's what it is second reading of ordinance 4781 Mr this ordinance is entitled an ordinance city of Sanford Florida amending the city of Sanford comprehensive plan as previously amended providing for amendment of future land use map future land use element of the city of s comprehensive plan relative to certain real property approximately 0.71 acres in size on by Habitat for Humanity of Simo County and greater apaka said property being addressed is 1695 Alexander Avenue fting for future and designation to be amended Simo County low density residential to City low density residential single family providing for legislative findings and intent providing for assignment of theous designation for the property providing for seever Ability providing for ratification of the city proving for conflicts providing fortification directions to current fire providing for Effective Mr Mayor City commission City staff found the propos small scale land use Amendment appropriate and suitable for the subject side and comparable with the surrounding land uses Inc consistent with the city's comp of plan and chapter 163 of the FL statute it is therefore the city staff recommendation City commiss D number 4781 this is the public hearing anyone from audience wish to speak to the side approve second motion second we're very anxious on motion is to any further discussion all in favor I any oppos that's second 4782 City certain property approximately 0.71 acres in size owned by Habitat Humanity County in great Florida property is located within the city limits of Sanford addressed as 6 1695 Alexander Avenue from Seno County single family dwelling to single family residential providing for findings and intent providing for taking event implementing administrative actions providing for the adoption of a map by reference providing for conflict providing for separability providing for non qualification providing for an effective Mr Mayor members of the city commission City staff find to propos resoning ordinance to be appropriate and suitable for the subject site and comparable with the surrounding land uses to therefore the staff's recommendations to the commissioner to ordinance number 80 4782 this one is show I have met with the applicant um talk about um PL and gentl about two months ago I have had no communication this is this is the public he any [Music] speak public commission move to approve motion second any discussion all in favor I any oppos M us to ordinance second orance 4783 Mr this ordinance is ordinance city of Florida volary petition short property address is 3750 La Avenue and 2850 East Lake Mary Boulevard located continuous to the city of Sanford in accordance with the voluntary anation provisions of section 17144 far statute finding the boundar of the city s includ property amending the boundaries of the city ordance provision section 16631 Florida Statutes fing for fining providing for conditions your City cler record the ordinance with the cler Circuit Court the chief administrative office County the Department of State providing for a legal description in the map providing for incorporation of that exhibit repealing all ordinances and conflict here with for cility providing for non taking administrative actions and providing for Effective Mr May memb of City commission City staff have reviewed the request vation and found the request to meet the criteria that the Au statutes is therefore the city staff recommendation the City Commissioner D ordinance number 4783 and Onex the property legally described into the city of sanord is the public caring anyone from the to speak to theose commission motion second all in favor any oppos pass second reading or 4784 Mr ordinance at the city of sanord Florida aming the city of sanord comprehensive plan as previously amended providing for men F land use map the future land use element of the city of s comprehensive plan relative to certain property 2.96 acres in size owned by sfd Air Park property being addressed is 3750 La Avenue and 3850 East Lake fut land designation to be Amed from County industrial cirport industry and commerce for legal legislative findings and intent provid for assignment of land Des for property proving for cability proving forication prior act in the city fing for conflict providing forication Direction Cod providing for Mr member City commission at their May 2nd 2024 meeting the city's Planning and Zoning commission voted to recommend that the city Sanford the city commission approve the request that land the future land to airport IND therefore City staff recommendation to City commission adopt ordinance number 4784 this says the public hearing anyone from the audience wish to speak to the side no want close the public hear bring the commission for Action motion approve second motion at second any further discussion all in favor I any oppos that's the second reading on ordinance 4785 this ordinance is entitled ordinance city of San Florida imp implementing the positions of pass house go number 1365 which enacted section 125.0 231 for theat pring public Camping sleeping on any public property proving for legislative findings of intent proving for implementing administrative actions amending section 6272 and section 6278 of the Civ code providing for penalties providing for saving provision providing for conflict providing for codification and correction of SC Jr and providing for an effective Mr Mayor Merson City commission the FL legisl Rec pass House Bill 1365 which makes it un unlawful for counties and municipalities to authorize or otherwise allow any person to regularly engage in public camping or sleeping on any public property is therefore the city staff's recommendation that the city commission adopt ordinance number 4785 this is a public hearing anyone from the audience wish to speak to this hi my name is Nancy BR I'm at 107 South Florida so uh my question is to the commission if you adopt this what's your plan to enforce it like what are we going to do you going to arest these people and we pay for them to go to jail and all that and it comes back cost for us really it's the point it is not our desire to arrest people um but we will follow the state La this well you bring up good points and it's something that's gone through not just the city of SLE to the entire country it is a real challenge in how to address people experiencing homelessness for the state legislator have passed laws and we must follow so so here's what I because I'm still having a hard time really getting that this and so here's here's what I'm not understanding this this ordinance is to bring us into compliance with the current state law well if the state law is the state law why do we even need this ordinance so I this really needs more explanation for me I'm this one has me a couple of points commissioner one uh it is a state law and we do have to follow it by passing an ordinance for cing out our code if there any conflicts within the code also this state law is under challenge already in the courts and there is a provision in this ordinance that if the challenge by Whoever has filed it is successful that this ordinance will be repealed automatically so that we are still in compliance with the state law we're we're trying to be in compliance and not out of compliance with the state regulation you remember guess it was last year we passed an ordinance defining what camping was right and then the state passed a a law which required us to change ours a little bit so I thought also this ordinance was going to help us be able if C County if C County Ted to designate a piece of property within the city of s that it would allow us to be able to deny them that that's part of the state that is a part of the state law and if the county does decide and it has the the power to make a decision to to locate a place somewhere within the county if they chose to do what they have the power to do and they wanted to locate it in the city the city has the power to to block that and require it to be somewhere else but that's part of the state law thank you Mr P anything else is there anyone else to speak the public hearing commission Mo approve second motion second further discussion in favor approval the extension of plan development order 218 the the city staff received a request for a plan development order relating to rail property assigned with Planning Development zoning District classification known as omus and PD and received it all Property Owners helal property Partners the record of Robert Miller there was a camp meeting the city staff's recommendation that the city commission approve the extension of the plan development the reone development order for PD plan development 2247 market aage for and Associates an additional three years this isal if anyone has anything to do this is the public hearing anyone from the audience will speak to the side close public hearing commission right approve second Mo second all in favor first read 476 City s City s am for am future landuse the land City Rel certain property 14.19 acres in size owned by the city of sand properly be addressed as 409 CL dve provid land designation to be amended for resal the high resal providing for legisla finding and intent providing for assignment of the land designation for the property providing s builing providing ratification prior acts of the city providing for conflict providing for codification directions to the code codifier and providing for an effective Mr may members of the city Commission on June the 6th of 2024 the city's Planning resoning Commission is scheduled to review the request to make a recommendation to City commission it is the city staff's recommendation that City commission approve the small scale comprehensive plan Amendment as the city finds City staff finds a small scale plan use designation appropriate and suitable for the subject site and this is a public hearing from just to s to the s I will close the public hearing I've got some questions about this so why if we're planning on at being single family are we changing it the high density res and Mr the s's going to come down do I need to go ahead and swear her in if she's if she's merely answering a question that the commission has she would not need to be sworn but it is a CRA judicial heing and if she's going to give testimony expert testimony she should be SW says this is this one's legislative it says this is this is not a quas Judicial sorry next one I I open asking okay so why for the formality hson planning director um okay so if you remember earlier this year we did a annual ordinance that we do to update properties that are inconsistent with the lanes and their zoning this was one of them to make it consistent with its surrounding zoning we're going to make it Mr we're going to turn them into MR3 and HDR because that's what the properties around it if you see on the map I the map but um to be consistent with those around it and to be consistent with the zon that are on top of it it needs to be H okay but but we intend for it to be single family per develop right but to put a single family zoning it would be spot in the middle of what surrounding as also the density that's allowed on the family the classic Woods subdivision that's adjacent to it have 40t lots and that gets close to the density maximum on the ldsf so to be consistent with the adjacent and allow the opportunity for the adjacent property to be consistent development it also could open the opportunity for town homes so that be developed in on that property it's not an inconsistent use to go low density single family it's just just not consistent with what's around it so that single family next to it correct it's a higher density a higher density because of the 40 and and and this brings up an important question why am I usy with this island um I was actually back in that neighborhood um last just a couple of days ago Saturday I think um and to talk to a couple of residents and that neighborhood does have the 4 F mons and the houses are right on top of each other with the five and and thank thanks to that I I believe and I've always believe that neighborhood is not in great condition that neighborhood there are some homes that are kept up well the majority of them are not um and um that do not look good at all and I just I so I don't understand why we want a Zone to be compatible with that we found that these 40t Lots don't work we found that these 5ft setbacks create a a nightmare people are on top of each other why do we want to why do we want a Zone to be compatible with something we know doesn't work well I guess the easiest way to put it is the lus around it are either MDR or HDR so short of rezoning Mass amounts and L uses the in order to prevent spot zoning we can't put an go NVR but it you know becomes inconsistent with that which reconstructed okay but it's it's currently MDR right part of it if you look at the map we're trying to clean it up because it's half and half it's going to be It's all under one ownership and it's half and half so we need to have one or the other since major the property is at higher density we're going to take the secondary one and make it the same the L use I think this is the zoning M if you want but um the L and the zoning are incompatible at this point okay because I'm looking in our agenda at the current future land use and the whole parcel is Orange right and the zoning is the zoning and the lanus don't match so the zoning is current higher density than the lenus so we either down Zone what's there or we bring the luse of what is existing next to it up to to match it so I guess why are we it's truly why are we matching it to class of woods rather than to the I guess that's vacant land or anything vacant land so I mean if that's the direction of the commission we could go that direction right now zoning and the Lan are incompatible on the larger piece and then the secondary piece if they become one parcel we don't do dual Z or dual one so we have to have one or the other and you're saying the one piece that's that's owned half and half is owned by one person no there currently it's two Parcels but it's all owned by one yeah it is two partials though owned by us so so so there's nothing that's forcing us to to to go high density there I I just don't understand to me presented high density we also open up the we open up the um the possibility of some do possibility apartments that opens up it does allow for apartments there's nothing to say that apartment wouldn't necessarily be compatible behind a cemetery and adjacent to some of the higher density residential the interest is to pursue either single family or higher density town we know that we need single family know that we want single family I just don't want to go high density there and in terms of the zoning and what could be built what's the difference between the medium density and the height 15 dwelling un per acre and 20 Dell un per AC so if we're at medium density we probably can't do 40 foot lcks we' have to do no you could do 40 I mean you're you're just barely over it typically if a 40ft lot if they do a you know fairly condensable M you might hit six to eight on a 40 fo L but we can do it under six most of our ones on Lake Mary it gets tight it gets hard to and then Town Homes really just don't you can't have town homes in the our St so Town Homes aren't a bad fit in terms of they are single family but they are attached they're free simple they're ownership owned and it gives a little variety of housing stock to not only be single family homes that are detached I mean there is a market four Town Homes right now we have several of those under construction as well it's sort of the the in between between the detach single family and the multi family so if the commission wants to pursue MBR we have to do mdr1 15 on both Parcels which one has and then the actually they're both currently mdr1 15 those parcel have [Music] to I don't want another subdivision that like what is what is over there I don't think that that is that is not aged well it hasn't worn well it hasn't gone well it um I'm telling you when I was over there this this past week there's there's not enough parking so the streets on both sides are packed with cars the driveways are packed with cars people are on top of each other 40ft Frontage that's an element of design though so our minimums are not 40 that would have to be either approved through conditional use and urban infill and the preliminary subvision Plan before both this commission and the Ping and Zoning commission or plan development reson if an applicant wanted to come back before you with that plus that that development came along way before I did so I don't I don't know the history of it but I do know I do know that it's um it it it is not it is not maintained it is not it is it was one of our first few 40 foot lot subdivisions we now have a number more obviously that we've done on the Southeast side of town um that one right there was done through public get those reduced lot sizes nothing says that the lot sizes have to be reduced to 40 ft it's just the access to this new property is through a subdivision of 40 foot Lots so you're not likely to get 100 foot lots to drive through a 40 foot lot neighborhood course not right so Town Homes may be a natural transition to go from something that's a higher density single family two town homes or a single family subdivision with either similar slightly larger Lots but you're not going to get State siiz Lots if you have to go through a 40t lot subis to get there well I'm not expecting right just from the planning perspective it either has to be one or the other because we can't have dual zoning or dual Lan use on single development you know the city owns this property maybe the thing to do is not to sell it for development but to think about making a park out of it or doing doing something that'll benefit that whole area that area needs benefit that whole area does and maybe we need to look at something that would benefit everybody out there rather than selling it um and trying to you know trying to puzzle you know put put together put together a fit for it that we already know is probably not going to make it a lot better there if it backs right up to Placid Woods maybe that's what we need to be looking at that's decision don't hear anything from my fellow Commissioners have y'all been out there lately no I haven't I agree with what you're saying but I think basically what you're saying we need to clean up one way or the other one way or the other we need to clean it up it's very distracting can you stop these from beeping yeah um well there's a couple things we have looked at different options of that property over the years uh it's not viable for U for part um it's not vable for all Fields like we want to do at one point uh if we open it up to commercial that gets tricky yeah access to it is through a residential subdivision so it's only real development possibility we do have an offer for the property am I allowed to say that it's too late now we have an offer for the property they approached us interested parties interested there's interest I don't know that that's what brought the awareness of this issue to the to the staff but yeah that we realized that it had this well part of the property actually went on the earlier um the earlier change this year the second small one got was not right was not brought to part of it well it's 14 acres um that uh is a little bit landl uh doesn't give a lot of access in out for uh for for doing anything large scale which it would be um so we've been kicking this around for years and and I I'm of the mindset and I'm just one person up here the city owns a lot of property that they should not own and they need to get rid of it uh some of it they should and some of it they should preserve others of it not so much um this this parcel has caused us a lot of problems over the years and um it's an eyesore um and so you know the potential to uh get rid of it and and do something with it is is there to create housing for the city is you know it's not a bad option for property especially if it's been burnt down over the years by homeless camps uh there's there's all kinds of drug use and and and nonsense that goes on out there at night because it it's it's a hiding place it is it is that's all true it's on the back side of the cemetery where a lot of shinanigans happen I just don't want to develop wrong and and for that to get worse instead of better and there's always that possibility which which sort of brings me back to why is making it all high density better than making it all medium no I don't have a I don't have a a problem with that question because I I thought it was kind of weird too um but knowing the history I thought I would share it um I don't understand why we because as says the location in the prop it'll be it'll end up 14 acres it'll end up being another apartment complex and IFA some people want to be that far off the road they want disability so what what you're looking at is either single family or town homes because commercial you can't get to it unless you drive through the subdivision it's going to be essentially if you look at it an extension of that with different houses the way the plasted wood looks right now I don't know how going to do anything that behind it I just I just and like I said that's a matter of design so anything that doesn't meet our minimum standards for the in this case MR3 zoning would require public hearings to modify and at that point would be the opportunity to make sure that those standards meet the quality of development that we've been trying to obtain in recent years this one really wor when we did the original class of woods there weren't all the requirements for the amenities the open space the smaller Lots we have requirements for more open space all of those elements were not requirements back then and they are now and MDR allows for for downtowns yes the MDR and the MR2 as well as the HDR and the MR3 both allow for them if there were an instance that trip the um md5 I mean 15 bilon un for acre is a lot most of our apartment complexes run between 12 and 14 even on the four story ones so so median then be residential and we could still get something that would be equivalent to class of with our new um design standards but we don't want equ I understand that but lot sizes it would be lot sizes with greater amenities or we could require on street parking or addal parking areas all of those things that we require now right so I just don't see the benefit of going to to the higher density unless and I haven't heard anyone say there's a reason to do that other than just for compatibility and consistency it's a natural progression through the town homes I me if you're the single family that's already there into the same zoning of the different subdivisions okay I just need clarification I thought that this was to reone the 3 acres not the it is a large well we're not to the Reon yet we're doing the lus okay so the lus on both Parcels right now is md15 so you would just not change the but then we would have to present a new ordinance to you a that larger piece to go back to the MR2 but I don't remember what it was when we changed it earlier this year but it would have to go to MR2 to be consistent with the other medium I haven't heard you say anything that tells me that we shouldn't do that the likelihood of getting something so dense that it exceeds 15 billion per acre this far off the lean Road I I honestly don't know how we can do that then let's not open ourselves up to that okay we need to I guess legal on the next one which is the cause of judicial one but I'm going to ask Mr we would have to withdraw it rece it it and start it over to reson to MR2 or can we proceed to with a different partial yeah it's a totally different partial so we would have to reort to do that one start overing loud so yeah we would have to come back to you first to the Planning and Zoning commission and then to you to go to I understand we're making them do more work but that makes more sense well it benefits the area in the future so then we need a motion to still in public he thank you um this says the public hearing if there's anyone from the audience wishes to good evening cin McGee 2127 West 25th Street I reside on the on the screen to display the parel to the north that's from primary Homestead residence 2127 where exactly right here where exact right there okay and to the left of that is also my family's property 2139 we request that as part of any developers agreement with whoever ultimately develops the subject parcel that will be granted Ingress eress from that side instead of having to go out to 25th Street that's been uh multiple collisions there one uh involving my daughter uh and with the posted speed on H Thomas J 25th Street it's very difficult getting in and out of there so we request that any developers agreement with the develop of the subject also include Ingress ESS to those two 2127 was 25 2139 was 25 thank you anyone else want to speak to the then I will close public hearing the commission for Action which I believe is to the I'll move to deny proceeding of ordinance number 2024 87867 476 oh my goodness thank you Shea 4786 I and I would just say I agree with Comm Austin that making that whole property of Park is not a viable option to the city but when we go to um possibly selling and developing that we might want to look at a neighborhood or as part of our agreement they and to put part of our standards well this would be okay any further discussion all in favor any opposed pass so what do we do with 477 if you're not passing the prior ordinance then zoning would be in conflict with the okay you need to call for public comment I would get public comment I don't re okay so ordinance 4787 is to reone the three acres that we did not just change the future land use on so we will not be able to do that resing but if anyone wishes to speak to that item you know I'll the public heing gr commission for motion to come move to the N second 4787 motion second any further discussion all in favor I any [Music] oppos consideration yes City commission cities received an appeal of the denial of the development order issued by City officer I Hon the planning director and has been filed by Attorney John F representing the developer of the advate S Waterfront Partners is the city staff's recommendation that the city commission ofh hold of the administrative officer this is my first time doing this so make sure I do it right um anyone who is going to be a party action and provide um testimony um to and Richard anybody else from your team okay um do you swear or affirm that the testimony that you about to give in the matters now at hearing will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth our process here will be staff and then the applicant and then the public comment and then um any um re by okay um as you've noted director as you've noted before you is the appeal by sford water Partners order that is issued by Sun department on the buing plan and C plan submitted by the applicant I also was informed that additional citees were provided to you um on Das yes um hopefully tonight's presentation will address the so we'll start with the Cal site Heritage Park also known as is subject to statutory development agreement uh enacted by ordinance hold on just [Music] second SC here again for recording please try to your voice needs to be within 4 to six Ines of that mic please which mic this one three of one right there this one you can a two is this the site plan that you reviewed or is this site plan was provided by the applicant as additional information okay all right everybody ready all right okay so the catalst site also known as Heritage Park um is subject to statutory development agreement enacted by ordinance 2017 4403 it's recorded in the public records at book 8919 page 437 through 574 some County's Public Records the development agreement is both the zoning of the city-owned property to establish the development standards and the requirements and it's a business deal between the city and S swp to implement the development authorized by the development agreement which was structured and intended to fulfill a public purpose and result in the public benefit so the development plan application and submittal so in 2023 s swp submitted a set of plans which is aach to sta report at the end and it's identified as a schematic design and Cy plan it includes graphic depictions not the line graphic depictions and line drawings of the proposed development not civil drawings as required for a Dev plan review the applicant has been advised that the schematic design has been found and determined by staff cannot meet the submittal requirements for the development plan review process and as noted both the plans and the comments from staff are provided as part of your staff report a development plan approval yields a site development permit for construction which cannot be accomplished without the developer submitting the appropriate civil GRS to the city so the development plan application and submitt the applicant refers to a letter of July 15 2020 and a site plan as a site plan approval from Miss Amy King in several appeal points if the letter work where side approval it would have been in the form of a development order the necessary civil engineering plans should have been submitted following that approval if the applicant had um had that as the approval I one more time say that again okay the applicant refers to a letter M of July 15 2020 as a cine approval from Miss Dy King and several points throughout the appeal says if the letter were a site approval it would have been in the form of a development order and the necessary civil engineering plans should have been submitted immediately following that approval um four years later a complete set of civil drawing has not yet been received so this is deprived the city staff the opportunity to enable S swp to proceed to Construction in a timely Fashion City staff does stand ready to exped the review of civil drawings um other notes that we wanted to just make sure presented to you is that Citywide various apartment complexes and mixed use projects have been submitted approved and commenced and even completed Construction in the time frame since this original approval so one other point of comparison is that the city regularly approves plan development reson and plan development development orders that come with a three-year expiration to allow applicants through infrastructure completion many of the PDS that we have appr since 2017 have met this requirement so they submit for application they get approval they construct and they get cosos and we've had a number of them go through the process since 2017 so the submitt review City staff has been tasked with ensuring adherence to the S by S swp to the Quality level of development and the overall development set forth in the master plan POS the development AG after most recent comments were received by s swp a meeting was requested Ed with staff which was promply scheduled and a consistent comment at that meeting was the need for a site plan comparison to approved master plan to assess the changes made by S swp to ascertain compliance with the development agreement so the following side plan comparison to the proposed master plan was provided by the applicant this is the side by-side comparison that we were provided regarding the master plan layout from August of 17 to the proposed site plan layout for October 23 so the development agreement within has a section on uses section 3.2 states that the uses on the property shall be in substantial conformance with those outlined in the master plan strict compliance with the city's comprehensive plan and in Conformity with the Land Development code regulations and so on Section 4.6 speaks to the changing of uses says the city and the developer acknowledge that Mark market conditions may change over time and therefore changes to the master plan may be necessary to ensure the Project's financial profitability and success the city manager or design shall administratively approve changes of uses within the master plan which changes do not exceed 15% changes in excess of 15% or those that are inconsistent with the zoning or Land Development regulations will require the approval of the city commission and the city's pling Zone Commission as part of the Land Development regulations there is the city has an administrative official under the provisions of section 3.1 of the Land Development regulations the city manager shall appoint an administrative official who shall be charged with the authority to administer the city's LDS and to enforce the regulations and procedures contained herein so the administrative official acts on land use development activities including site development plans compliance with submittal requirements applicable zoning Lan use negotiated agreements and the city's conferen plan so the denial development order the denial development order which is the subject of this appeal was not issued on the basis of whether a plan presented was good or bad or Better or Worse designed than previous submittals the order was issued after a review of the material submitted and was based on the requirements of section 3.2 and a determination that the cycl submitted was not in substantial conformance with the approved development agreement the order identifies eight points that deviated from substantial compliance I'm sorry substantial conformance with the approved VA this again is just a look at the eight neighborhoods and what staff was reviewing in terms of the substantial compliance between the proposed site plan and the master plan that was adopted with the development agreement so I can you read that can you go ahead and read this the eight neighborhoods yeah sure there's a yeah I I would prefer to be that okay there's Waterfront mixed use pedestrian Main Street mixed use downtown mixed use a convertible live work living Waterfront living downtown living tranquil living and an amenity area um each of us is further defined as to what they are and in question is not well in question is the location of these neighborhoods as they were approved on the master plan so the next Point okay so in the development order eight points were noted that were found to be inconsistent with the master plan so point one stated that the master plan approved as an integral and supremely important part of the development agreement specifi types of residential uses the proposed site plan only identifies 235 units without specifying A variation leading to ambiguity and providing a variety of housing stock um they development information on the schematic design plan identifies breakdown of number of bedrooms but not a breakdown necessarily in types of housing such as types sizes locations including different forms of housing being detached single family Town Homes duplexes triplexes quad flexes any sort of Garden Apartments just this number of units it does count out it does call out different bedroom quantities in those units the second point was noted to be a component of the proposed change of the non-residential uses a set forth in the proposed site plan exceeds 15% threshold allocated to the developer and applicant to seek without formal Amendment to the development agreement in accordance with the processes mandated by controlling state law point three states that the retail restaurant space modification from 35830 Ft to 284 45 ft in the proposed site from constitutes a reduction of over 20% and also requires Amendment of the development agreement in accordance with the processes mandated by controlling state law so the development information on the schematic design plan clearly identifies a breakdown of non-residential uses there's there was questioned in the appeal letter that states that it was a difference between residential and non-residential but when staff compared it to the master plan and the inform inform on the master plan there is a breakdown of residential I'm sorry of non-residential uses meaning retail restaurant and office the overall percentage change in the retail and restaurant exceeds the 15% and we require an amendment by this commission not by city manager or staff I let me ask you a quick question there um r ldrs distinguish between office retail and restaurant as different uses correct correct they are independent Lane uses the way that Master Plan was laid out it calls out retail and restaurant together and then it does separate office so it's not necessarily a difference of residential versus non-residential the residential does have a breakdown so point four and five are group together point four while the rearrangement of the neighborhoods does not necessarily require amendments of the development agreement appropriate context the relocations proposed on the side plan submitted alter the master plan in a significant manner that materially changes dynamics of the neighborhood types within the overall design and are thus inconsistent with the approved development agreement master plan point five states that the original design is set forth in the master plan effectively screens the parking areas from the rights away with building frontages the revised designs and the proposed plan do not achieve this buffering effect resulting in non-numeric modification to the plan as this change is not percentage based it does not have aeric value that can be varied by the city manator in a development agreement provision and requires amendments of the development agreement in accordance with the processes mandated by controlling state law so as noted relocating the elements in neighborhoods creates barriers and pedestrian to pedestrian movement contributes to heat island effects reduces the vibrancy and diversity of the neighborhoods and detraction the original design by removing the exhibit shows which neighborhoods which segment neighborhoods were being removed and the resulting design at the end um this is also an overview perspective from the master plan that showed where those buildings would break up that overall continuity explain the heat island heat island if you have a continuous parking lot with um without appropriate Landscaping shading or breakups of the building Shadows like that it it allows the heat to track in the and then it just gets conveniently hard I go back back one okay the far right that's the original masteral the middle one just identifies which two neighborhoods were relocated were they relocated or were they taken because it looks like the buildings that are now called TR building already exist in those PL the applicant is asserting that they were relocated so what neighborhood was the one on the left is the Tranquil living the one on the right was ex out is the recreational and amenity area Okay so and the plan on the far left the narrow horizontal building at the top behind the apartment and what neighborhood was that in before it was part of five which was the water living according to this master so what happened to that oh that M okay so the building that was part of five that put into two buildings and called as it as it is proposed on this plan yes okay but as staff reviewed it it's just inconsistent with what the original was so I had noticed that that building was there originally I thought I I'm not sure they just been redesigned but the neighborhood that was meant to be set and then breaking up the parking lot and and giving that the look of this with the corridor and the pedestrian but I'll talk about tranquil Liv okay tranquil living um point six it says the Tranquil living space set forth in the development agreement was defined as a quiet pedestrian only Street line by Town Homes the location in Theos Cy for the neighborhood type Place places between the building and a parking lot without Tree Line streets without an element of quiet this does not meet the purpose of the Town Homes as set forth in the development agreement master plan and accordingly requires Amendment of the development order in accordance with the processes mandated by state law so this is where I guess it might answer your question it has it shows where trle living was versus where the applicant has placed on the new thank you okay so the other one is 7 which is the amenity site it's been relocated from a centrally recessed area along Commercial Street to a primary location just south of s Boulevard at Sanford Avenue directly across the street from Sanford Civic Center the change REM moves equal access to the amenities and places them in a location that removes external pedestrian access and walkability but substantially and materially deviating from the overall design set forth in the master plan and accordingly requires changes in Amendment to the development agreement so the amenity area has been relocated to the far north and east boundary of the site as you can see in the exhibit it's now along the well travel sford Avenue it's adjacent to the Civic Center and it's the connector between First Street and Riverwalk all nonresidential pedestrian traffic will have no external access to the development in this area should they you know originally where the buildings were and where the amenity was it's now further away from a large percent of the units and then um it's also now on a primary Street where no one from the outside can or would have access to it because it's obviously a private amenity space for the apartment or other town home unit OCC so point eight is just that the additional technical insufficiencies exist as to the proposed site plan relative to which the applicant has been advised of the necessary information which is needed in of the submission in order to submit a complete cyan so as noted in the prior slides staff and the staff report and this presentation the information provided by the applicant to date has been insufficient for us to do a full development plan review there's little to know demential information as to the structure sizes and setbacks of distances and coverages um other necessary information to conduct a proper site and Engineering review so in conclusion in the staff report the copy of the applicant's memorandum and notice to appeal identifying reasons for which the appeal has been file presentation and the staff report does not specifically address each response in the memorandum but provides staff's responsibilities and review and an explanation and justification for the denial points the administrative official and City staff are charged with reviewing for compliance with adopted running regulations not modification of said regulations so as ified in this case the development agreement is the zoning of the property to which compliance is being determined staff holds to the merits of the denial and stands ready to answer any questions related to [Music] AC any inial questions um Al I just want some clarification when you go back to administrative official um when it says the city manager shall appoint an administrative official who shall be charged with the authority and so on and so forth um can you clarify what that is for the matter in question and who do did we have an administrative official for this item here clarify for me please sure okay the administrative official which is typically the director of planning as it relates to the city of Sanford is currently myself and prior to me with with Miss king um the administrative official is charged with making sure that developments are compliant with their zoning ising side development perit reviewing approving denial all of those actions as they relate to compliance with the Land Development regulations agreed upon um development agreements and the comprehensive plan obviously most Supreme so in this case the zoning of this property is the development agreement and staff reviewed the development agreement in relation to the site plan that's been submitted and this comparison plan that staff you know requested so that we can assess it and determine that it is not consistent based on those eight plans eight coins any any questions good evening um my name is John pober and I represent U sanur Waterfront partners and uh just through the chair a point of clarification um I do my presentation then I can call the S back for my examination or should I cross before I can and then down whether you PR I got one question is this this whole judicial thing bother me so if he's giving a presentation and maybe testimony how have to he just chose not to and said they could choose not to he chose not to commissioner this is an attorney who represents a client he is not a witness he is an attorney representing the client his client is going to give testimony I presume in a little bit and the attorney may ask his client questions uh the may ask Miss some questions and there will be an opportunity for both sides to sum up at the end and then the matter will be turned over to the commission for deliberation and the decision thank you it's it's something new for us so I just wanted appication thank you for what it's worth it's something new hold on just a minute because I forgot to remind everyone this was by a Judicial and I did talked to um eileene and to um Mr Gro um on several occasions over the course of the last week about the um the details of this and the process and I have also uh spoken with um e regarding just this matter we're not talking about anything else right okay so regarding this matter I spok me okay all right I'm trying to get this straight understood all right um so thank you for the time um as I said my name is John hollberg I'm honored to represent South um I'm sorry sanord Waterfront Partners um I think it's important to understand that some of the comments in the recommendation that's been in your package with h and some of the comments by Miss Henson um relate to really um a legal question regarding what the what the the the status of Miss King's approval was uh I'm going to refer to Sanford Waterfront Partners ASP just because it's quick uh and so um s swp is not offering that evidence as an approval that's somehow binding on the city it's a fact of Consequence the approval occurred the approval says that the city agreed that what's presented in the site plan that was referenced in that approval which is um I I'll give you a reference if you want to find it it's uh in your uh item H at page 63 nope sorry at page 217 sorry and it is 21 27 yes and um um if you can put up exhibit e uh I just don't have a site for it and the important point about this uh letter from Miss King is the fact that it refers to the site plan dated July 10th which um which Mr grou is kind enough to share with the members in advance of today's hearing because I noticed that it wasn't being so um if you scroll down to the bottom and the see it's referring to S plan drawing dated July 10th 2020 thank you so that site plan was provided to you today do you have the side plan I sent you this morning is that the last page there okay now turn sideways so it's a little different than the one that s showed you but if you use your imagination you can see that this site plan is the same as the site plan that Miss Hinson reviewed on October 10th I'm sorry October 2023 um it has the same uhal living has the same location to amenities has the same square footage for use all of the cont content of this site plan that the city said was consistent with the da or what was rejected in the in the development order I don't think there's going to be much of a dispute about that I really don't I don't think that's a fact that the parties disagree and I will confess to you swp does not say that that approval that Miss King provided is somehow enforcable today but it's my understanding um that your job is going to be to evaluate competent substantial evidence about what uh complies with the development and now you have two facts before you the facts that the sson presented that says it doesn't confine and the facts that the city said before it does in the form of Lady King's letter I'm confused correct King said saidon said it and the city said it fair enough the city says it does now doesn't and the city says it did then or Miss Hinson says it does doesn't now and the King said it didn't it does it did then either way you slice it I wasn't I wasn't trying to play tricks I'm just trying to get you my presentation that I can get on testimony okay but before you go go to that you said on o October of 2023 who approved what because you said Miss Henson in October of 2023 since you received this this same plan it's dated different but it's the same plan same cont in October 2023 received received in um the the denial order this is the plan that miss hson it was submitted through citizens Ser for review by staff so um the square footage analysis if you would go back to exhibit e the square footage analysis in this k letter says it's under 15% which we agree with the moves were not deemed to be a substantial deviation from the development the fact of the matter is is that um but for the need to secure financing um this this plan under Miss king would have already in place the co and and the evidence will show you with Co and securing financing this project took longer to get Beyond um this came left so the issues that you were asking uh Miss Hinson about and and inquiring the the the neighborhoods um those facts there's really no dispute that those components all remain in the site the Tranquil living has the necessary um Landscaping it has the same features that are in the original site plan just moving them to a different place so that s swp provide more parking available to the community so that the residents who live at this project will not have to endure parking on the street taking parking space away this so there's 95 more spaces and I had a discussion with Miss Hinson before this hearing just a few moments ago um and believe that had Miss Inson provided comments to the P that Sheed in October rather than issue of denial order that this matter might not be before the commission today members would be asked to make a qu judicial determination I suspect although don't know that the parties would have been able to get to some sort of a resolution that could have worked don't know that's a speculation on my part like I'm I'm confused there you're saying that SBP did not receive any information that there were problems with the site plan what I'm saying is is that the denial orders the first time that swc learned that the relocation of those compon and the changing the square footage was a problem for sample first time when have been I I'm also saying that um although I'm not going to call um U Brian out there witness he was attending the and was equally astonished when the denial water came I'm also saying that it is the um the city's authority to do more than what was offered in the recommendation either affirm the denial order or reverse the denial order you can send it back you can deny this you can you can you can deny the denial order without mandating he be approved and if you vote against s swp's site plan approval you said you affirm to denial um we request that you wave the onee period so that can subit a new site plan without having a and I've conferred with Mr group and with Miss and they do not oppose that request and so with that I would call Miss Henson for that opion well before you do that I need ahead I need to go first with all due respect to you please Mr cber can you hear me can you hear me well and good down there I'm just a little bit a little concerned and a little confused here because in the 14 and a half years that I've sat here I we've never allowed an attorney to cross-examine a city staff member ever in front of us and I don't understand why we're doing that today and This concerns me um This concerns me greatly she's never been C cross-examined in all the the times that we had Steve coer and every other attorney in Central Florida sitting up here we never allowed an attorney for an applicant to quote and he used the term cross-examine a city employee I'm not comfortable at all uh with this situation because I feel like if if she's going to be quot cross-examined by an attorney then she also needs to have legal representation or an attorney or some advice or something this is very this does not seem right to me Mr cert and I want you to tell me why this is fine even though 14 and 1/2 years we've never done it before okay I understand your question and the answer is that a number of years ago courts in Florida in a series of cases the legal system through the courts decided that items are not only administrated which commissions handle or legisl but there are some decisions that cities made and counties and Boards of the State of Florida with start quazi judicial in and and those types of cases and this is one need to follow the Court's saying a more formal procedure and cases over the last several years have made it more and more formal and more and more clear that the failure to do that uh means that it gets sent back to the city to do it right uh we have had crai judicial hearings in the past and attorneys have had the right to cross-examine but they have not exercised it never and this is done I hope in most of the 400 cities in Florida now because those that aren't doing it for exposing them themselves to have to go across the street and get it sent back and start all over with instructions from the court on how to do it right which we've always so I understand you being uncomfortable I understand it is the first time that the hearing has been this formal but it does meet the requirements of the law and this is attorney has the legal right to ask Miss Henson questions he does not have the right to be discus he does not have the right to brow beat her he does not have the right to make her miserable but he does have the right to ask questions so if he does those things who stops you the mayor you nothing commissioner I had very fix SK that's okay mayor is in charge of the meeting but if I feel the matter is going astray I will speak up and I have every confidence in this member of the bar being a gentleman and I know he's going to represent his client well but I expect that he will do it in accordance with the law and if I am concerned about it I will mention it to him and I suspect we can work it out so I understand your apprehension but I recommend that we go forward as we need no I I totally but I I think you know well well worth mentioning that we've never done it in 14 and a half years so it's new to all of us including the mayor and everyone else sitting here and I mean let's face it um you know and I have confidence this gentleman too but we also know how these things can go south and get really ugly really quickly and so I just wanted to to it just to summarize we've been holding Quai judicial hearings for a number of years I understand that they have not been this far but there are more and more cases where the judges in the circuits and in the F courts and even in some cases Supreme Court say those who don't do it are not doing it right we want to do it right we do I understand I think the app that wants us to do it right and I suspect we will come to a decision that somebody will agree with and somebody may not that happens a lot and then there is a process to go thank you Mr you're wel through the chair um Sanford also passed an ordinance um this January which formalized this process and um Mr Mayor you were referring to that as you read in opening uh and I believe in that um new ordinance there's a discussion about examination cross examination so I think it's new because it Sanford is formalized its process um and uh Council cber has already explained the history of CAS La I I agree um and I promise you commissioner I'm not a disrespectful man my mother raed me better than that oh I have no doubt we all watch too much Court TV yeah unfortunately cross examination is never that [Music] exciting yeah got a lot of okay um in you saw the approval by Miss King I have seen letter and you saw the um July 10th 2020 I and that's one um if you would um if you would turn to uh let's see let's go to exhibit e again which is 217 in your package so if you want to look it in paper on the screen we don't really have the page numbers that you're I'm sorry all right um okay so there's right after exhibit exhibit is on the back [Music] page I apologize I've been going through mine so management system I don't have any it's just one p you got D and then like two pages I've got D and then I've got more it's [Music] thank you ladies thank you so paragraph 4 that's the approv to the square foot in form less than 15% correct according to am's letter yes no Cody B's letter that's the approval for less than 15% change correct letter that is the calculation der to the nonrenal uses as a ruction and this King represented that that was approv right King represented that um Miss King also did not take it can M King also did not um take exception to moving the trial living space true relocation of the neighborhoods does not to concern and that would be true for tri right corre and that would also be true for the amenities right um there's no concern about the um the the mix of uh units for the residential correct per say there's no concern because there's no reference to it but does not appear to be a reference regarding the residential breakdown fair enough so let's take it one little piece of time as we said this is for the July 10th 2020 C right and July 10 2020 um C had uh the units LED on one of the sheets correct can you go back to um drawing entry um no I want to see okay so if we would go to um if you would go to [Music] um if you go to exhibit B at the my page 29 which is uh I know you don't have the page numbers but it's uh it's going to be be 63 it's a but I'll put it up here and make it big so everyone see you project program you pull up that section earlier when you were talking about the size of the units that's what you were referr to right correct it does break down that the unit the bedroom count of unit but it does not break down whether or not their town homes or apartments or eventually duplex quadplex housing types it does not include housing types right and the the housing types are defined by the different neighborhood that they in correct should but if you go go back to the last so if if if you you referring to your the comparison you had you read the different neighborhoods commission yes um so tranquil living describes the Tranquil living where it is what it is right and that would include describe town okay and then for each of the different areas describe the type of unit that's in those neighborhoods right the type of unit yeah with the bedroom count yes but also Liv Define it as such but the to supposed to beily that it's suppos to be yes the breakdown says the definition says and each of the others the living work that neighbor same all the different right it appears so yes but as noted in the presentation a lot of what we've received is not what we're used to receiving in terms of plans to review so they're not engineer drawings the way we would normally have them detailed so it's hard for staff to do a full review on things that are not normal and is it fair to say that had um had swp produced a full set of engineer civil engineer for construction and then you Den it because that that I don't have to to review so I don't know but it would likely have yielded a similar conclusion that it is inconsistent with the master plan that is part of the devel agement right and that's because square foot exchange the amen move and the unit description right the well I mean they gave a bedroom breakdown unit descriptions it's there wasn't enough information put it there wasn't enough information provided for us to ascertain has the has the development has had the city provided conditional approval and then conditioned on approved engineering plans that could have allowed the to go correct have conditional approval we don't have a conditional approval we either have an approval or we don't have an approval and it's either is which is in a development order form or a development order itself you don't issue letters as an approvement so if there was a development order issued that said something was in compliance with the master plan development order were right and if that development ORD is subject to approve Construction that that's one wayel Cor in this case the development agreement Next Step would have been the engineering and development plans so the ultimate yield after the development agreement was adopted was to go to engineering ples for us to issue a per construction there's our normal procedure doesn't include a conceptual site plan of income so just what was submitted was not normal procedure and staff had difficulty reviewing it as comments were provided to the applicant repeatedly that the information that we had was insufficient to make a determination when we received the master plan comparison that's when it was determined that that discussions to tell them that we needed this information yielded the denial development so let's take that a little bit of the time okay excuse me can you guys speak up please yeah we're sharing a mic so it's kind hard I'm trying to be respectful of your personal St right so um the city hadn't told uh swp that the configuration depicted in that drawing right there was accept in my tenure has developed the admin official we had not told them that that configuration was compatible or incompatible continued comments to them were we need more information do you want a separate microphone it does I don't have to be hovering over Miss hon ask my questions okay is that better yes yes okay so M just just okay just right I'm trying to answer your questions but they're a little different than process so it's difficult to answer understood the city never gave an indication to South um s swp that that site plan was acceptable to it just the configuration and formal approval that would be an acceptable approval was never given there was no indication that that configuration was accepted [Music] right indication that's questionable if you're saying that this is an indication acceptable was there a formal approval ever gr3 okay in 2023 okay there was no indication that that plan was approved from everything that I've reviewed that my staff has issued and then other departments in the city have issued is that we need more information right and there were no comments on that plan that went to swp that said we're concerned with the moves of those neighborhoods we held multiple meetings with s WP and I advised them and the February 21st meeting was the most recent one advising them that I did not have a comparison between that plan and the master plan showing what they moov so it was this is the first time this plan that we we're debating this evening was the first time I'd ever seen in writing something from them saying this moved to here this moved to here this moved to here it was never presented to his Bri so there was no way for us to give them an approval or a denial on those movements in 202 you had the um the 2017 me Li and you had in October 2023 you had that plan right cor and you can look at the two and see that correct verbally they were advised that verbally we advised them that it did not reflect the same development and repeatedly asked for these additional pieces of information and um and then the first written communication from the city that it did not satisfied VA was the den right correct I have no further questions thank you for your patience Mr is it appropriate for me to ask a couple of questions to clarify what they were just talking about you can ask okay because he you said numerous times that there was never an indication that the configuration was unacceptable and that there was never I think in your letter you [Music] say um 136 days after it was submitted at no time that the city expressed that there were technical inefficiencies I mean weren't there multiple comments okay and I if you look at the citizen serve um record from 2020 were there comments then about it it was the beginning of a review but it was never completed prior to the issuance of this letter that we're able to determine okay and in the 1113 23 CTA hearing memo do you remember in that know stating that we don't have the required submissions to to make a um determination I don't specifically recall said doc I mean I remember going through the hearings and what not I have read a lot on the site in the last few weeks but that particular document I can't pull quotes from well dur during the CTA hearing we repeatedly said that our approval at that point was based on the original master plan correct and we were at that point this commission made it clear to me that my staff and myself were charged with making sure that whatever moves forward meets that master plan with strict compliance all right thank you I I didn't get any questions I got I [Music] got question I want to go back to the 2020 letter that we were speaking about okay um it says based on the above the Revis site plan drawing blah blah blah was approved it's recommended that s swp proceed with the engineering plan review process did s swp proceed with the engineering plan process we have no engineered drawings today so from 2020 when this letter was sent the next step was it was recommended that swp proceed with the engineering plan review process and yet we still have not received any engineered they are currently working with an engineer on some geotechnical elements but an engineering plan meaning our standards for submitt have not yet been received and the most recent comments forwarded to the applicant which are in your packet identify that deficiency okay and then um my question is is just a regular question is there an expiration on any letters that are sent out so the visitors is s in 2020 and we have not heard any response from the de developer applicant is there an expiration date on that is there a statute on it can you clarify there are elements within our ldr that expire certain site plans associated with conditional uses and variances and Ms as such for needed six months it expires to six months we do have some one year expirations on certain approvals for development plan as well but it has been four years so even if a onee approval were allowed on this letter from Amy it's been four years since the actual approval letter was issued if it seen as an approval letter which is okay and this one is a long one and you may may or may not know it but I'm just asking it says based on the above the revised site plan drawings based on the above the above are six items that are are listed there from the five story building all the way down to the fiber cement siding and what have you did all of those meet with our city code is any of those six items outside of our city code just for example if there was an error with Miss King on what was submitted in the one through six because it says based on the above it's approved but does that meet the these six that are above did that meet our city code did did that meet this site is different because their zoning is this development agre they have to comply with the comprehensive plan comprehensive plan was met when the master plan went through the process however these five points are changes to the approved master plan and the development AG if I understand your question okay anyone else thank you I do have a question go back this document yes and z in on the um the front page zero in on the um mix of the 245 units okay yeah which of those are Town Homes I couldn't tell you by looking at those I'd have to go look at the other PL all right thank you that's not testimony yeah I understand only comment all right anything else okay so what's next who the presentation Mr [Music] okay can we take a um 5 minute break is that okay sounds like the plan 5 minutes come on just a minute hang on just a minute hang on just a minute Che you going to sing you going to sing [Music] was [Music] was [Music] [Laughter] oh I do not I I would have to run upstairs don't I do you want me to run upstairs and go get some more yes sir [Music] [Music] because [Music] yes I'm running upstairs to go get more water and get Ronnie some peanut butter crackers cuz he's [Music] hungry there's no bins at all so I will be back [Music] I [Music] sawain well yeah [Music] [Music] [Music] I got I got [Music] yeah time [Music] know [Music] that's why it's up yeah right thank you she's had three kids oh that's [Music] true hey guys anybody feel like [Laughter] [Laughter] said he say inappropriate no bear in mind your bu [Music] know that's like hold like who still sadly it's because of construction it's down bring any more back I know we got once we got used to it wasn't it nice but later tonight I've got an exciting use of [Music] our can can you stick your head outside and see if commissioner out there please there he is yeah right yeah he stays [Music] up okay we are are back the you ready for me yes thank you um name Richard J heisen bottle um Mr heisen bottle umw you heard testimony before right yes sir okay let's talk about the time before Miss king um stated that she agreed with the site plan proposal okay so before July 10 20 point okay yes sir all right um what was the reason for bringing a proposed move of those units and changing were two reasons primary reasons the first reason was because we did not feel on part or not that that there was viability to really selling tow houses the second reason and the most important reason was that we had spoken to us HUD about financing the project Orton was aware that we were doing that he helped us on a few occasions and they insisted that this project be financed with with one and a half Cars per unit as opposed to one car per unit which is the requirement of of sched s and so what did you do in order to create the one and a half Cars per unit we relocated the Tranquil living Town Homes through an alternative location which provides for the same sort of quality and we relocated the swimming pool which is the primary amenity area to the area that it is in and the proposed to in the U this King approved site plan and we expanded and actually got 94 additional parking spaces that was a big deal it was important okay and what happened um once once you got all those uh proposals what did you do with that proposal where you we we codified it on a drawing we had multiple discussions uh and back and forth with Miss king um at least two letters from us us two different in Middle to to get to to her approval letter plus a series of meetings what happened um after the approval um and between October and 2023 that uh you remember in the letter it says recommend getting engineer that's great why didn't we were first seeking a financing before we did expensive engineering drawings okay and how did that well we've only recently had our and they know that had our financing approved and that's exactly why we're proceeding um between um July 10th 2020 and uh October 2023 were there any um any Communications or statements uh that indicated that the moves to the site plan were not acceptable to S no there was no communication you heard U uh Mr Mayor asked Miss Henson about um the approval of the the financing the bonding the bond financing in there it requires St compliance of the development you remember that yes okay and how how do you answer that question site plan that is from July 2020 August 2023 whether that's stct components of the development agreement is actually a flexible document it gives us the opportunity to literally Exile buildings to delete buildings that yes absolutely this banging if if if you know if we chose to for some reason it acknowledges that market conditions may change in the case of would someone pleas yeah yes it does answer my question and so and so um and so we removed those for sale town homes and we created another tranquil living area uh on both on both blocks one and block two and we relocated the swimming pool and the amenities to to the new location and picked up the advantage of getting these additional 94 parking spaces without any disadvantages um and so after you submit before you submitted the October 2023 site plan um what was the instruction from the city that in the fall of [Music] 202 to the best of my recollection it was that that that Miss King's letter had expired that was done with the site plan application that her letter had expired and we needed to submit for site plan approval again so what did you do we took the same site plan for all uh and and we resubmitted it uh in October of 2023 what happened next U we got a series of comments from staff all reviewing the the documents uh not not one of those comments addressed the relocation of these two um building or the pool what about what about the um the square footage uh not want to address the square footage either you heard Miss hson testify that during many conversations Communications withp the city made clear that is going stly adere to the DA [Music] right yes and what would were you doing to reflect what wasp doing to reflect that to like I said the development agreement is is a flexible document it's not meant to be that that preliminary drawing is not meant to be the final drawing for anything we we were enhancing it as you enhance every design so uh what were some of the comments you were receiving on the site on the site plan uh after October 2023 what's the comments you Hy comments we received comments from all sorts of disciplines within the city from from fire and police and and some of them are completely satisfied already there are others we're fully aware of that need to have the technical the drawings completed they are in process but before we get to that process we better figure out where we're placing our buildings and what about the [Music] that U uh item for the COA and block three was approved um by the historic preservation board some months ago certificate of appropriateness that was one of the steps that need to be fulfilled that was one of the steps that needed to be fulfilled yes was that a comment that s yes uh what other types of comments did you receive from outside of the staff comments we received no comments directly from Mrs Henson that uh relative to the layout of the property except the the approval I guess of the deletion of the bike paths in order to increase the size of the sidewalks what about the de mucking the mucking was one of the drawings that was that we civil engineering drawings that we had to provide it only appropriate to provide it to the city for review and approval because because they're V for that was that done yes they're completely done so this is a process it's a process okay um you heard sson explain to explain to the members that uh the February meeting you had resulted in in a demand that you show comp Arison of the 20 23 cyone to the master you remember that that's correct okay what was the reason uh Miss sens gave you for asking she wanted and and she stated this in the meeting um with Bryant and myself uh that that she wanted anyone to who ever questioned the decision uh to be able to come up and take a look and see how similar they were and after that meeting when was the next time you heard from the city when we received the development denial I I'm not sure who you're tendering well whoever wants to it down questions okay let me let me ask one real quick um when okay so you moved the Tranquil living up to the front of the to the right front side what changed how did how did those areas change to become tranquil living rather than water let me explain for a second mayor wood what Tran what the Tranquil living units are I mean they're they're Town Homes yes they have their own garages um but they don't open up to a street to a busy Street they open up to to to what was either one of these plants a public space that that is a pedestrian only and it has trees and it has lighting and it has fountains and it has U all sorts of things that uh that that make it a nice public street it's the kind of public street that you might walk on in Europe a narrow Street not a not a know 75t wide right way right um so so you narrow the space between the two between the buildings no no the space Remains the Same but but the point is it it does not what makes it tranquil living is that it does not open up to a super highway front Okay but but the building that is there that is called tranquil living was already had that configuration correct it already had that configuration yes it already had every one of those qualities it just wasn't labeled tranquil okay so the change was to label at tranquil and the designer that's tranquil I mean well I mean but you just said it what you didn't change the designer the design didn't need to be changed okay it was already a town home so wait because I have one more question and then um why applies the so what's the the difference between a wall and a town home it meets the definition of a town home under under your um city code um it made it we have lofs um those lots have those twostory living rooms in some areas and and and bedrooms that Overlook the living room but they could also have two bedrooms on the second floor and conventional living rooms downstairs too I you a the building that doesn't affect the whether the Tranquil living or not the Tranquil living is the fact that it's not on a main road okay so the buildings I don't know what numbers they are because I don't have that paper in front of me but the buildings that are considered tranquil living do any of them have more than a lost bedroom there were six of them that we were including that that had two bedrooms were to have two bedrooms on the second floor instead of the W I'm not sure that answered my question as as currently design with your with your with the March 2020 cycling do any of the buildings that are considered tranquil living are all of those lost or do any them have multiple vet in the march in the October 2023 site planine they did not in our subsequent meeting with staff on the 21st of February we proposed a an adjustment to the size of those uh buildings to and and to make some of those units for sale six that made them consistent with the the six for sale units that we had discussed with you were concerned about at our our hearing uh on the finance so so we were we proposed along the way in that hearing a new location for the six for sale town homes so that we would be consistent with the master plan so there's a potential change to the site plan from the last site plan that was presented they look identical you just don't have the two-story space over your living build build okay to right okay commissioner okay Patrick since that your question aligns with yeah I'm curious where you move the Tranquil Living Spaces they are facing the back of the the buildings on the lakefront there's the buildings on the lakefront are are you know Carter buildings some overlooking the lake and some looking back towards the city okay and so what is what is my view outside my tranquil living front door so um through the chair uh MRIS bottle did a uh a rendering of what this space is supposed to look like we just got it in if it's okay I'll bring it up if it's not I understand bring it up cuz the back goes under the parking lot right the back is the parking lot and the garages enter from the parking lot P right so what am I looking at for my front door looking at the back just just just thank you you're looking at a narrow European style street that does not have automobile traffic on it that has fountains and Greenery and trees and lighting over overhead so pardon me it's it's a it's a courtyard yes and they it intersects if we look the whole side plan an intersects with the other Courtyard where where and the same sort of situ the courtyard is in the in the front um and and it actually intersects there's there are Alleyways that that continue if we put up a s plan we might that's it's not just a straight line anymore that answers my question but the reason I asked that question is how would how would staff ever know that that that's that that's the plan there well from from these drawings given Patrick there's there's a Communications that has to go back and forth with sa we sat with them on the 21st and we talked about where this would of February we talked about where this would go we didn't have seem to have any objection certainly um Brian and I didn't get the feeling that there was any objection to anything at that at that hearing if there was if staff had a problem with it we would expected as before that as as with Miss King that she would write me something and say here are five items that we're really concerned about and and I would respond by as an example by offering this sort of a rendering to illustrate what this tree lined uh use as what we call it in architectural terms would look like so um if we go back to the original master plan um and that drawing uh where the Tranquil was supposed to be yeah it clearly shows uh trees yeah it shows a view um and so this this drawing submitted uh under the revised plan doesn't show that so I don't know how you would expect staff to know that we were if there was a question Patrick about it you you simply ask it you're seeing it today I would have given this sort of a rendering this sort of an explanation or a detailed drawing if I knew before I had this denial development order uh that this was that serious we this is a solvable problem this is you know do we do we want the 94 additional parking spaces that this plan brings can we be happy with the the design of the Muse that we have here as a tranquil living space um are actually advantages to the new location of the swimming pool an amenity area what are those advantages it's 4 ft up above the street level down below that's one of them and it is in the area of the five-story buildings which have the highest density as opposed to the buildings on block that side of block U three that CL where where is the parking for building now is that the main parking lot it's all the main Park lot so how will how do people access so I would park in that parking lot and then pass through the alley walk and between the two um yes you'll actually walk through the news walk in walk through the Tranquil there's a connection for for every pedestrian area that one might need to go to besides the front I'm not sure I would call that TR I yield to commissioner Britain thank you commissioner Britain so I'm not sure if this is even a city this is Mr mod question or city but I'm reading here you you brought up that you received a a CFA a certificate of appropriateness through HPD um and it looks like it was issued September 16th 2020 but then I'm also seeing that that hbb HPB approval has expired and then you went before again and uh for a pre-application it was approved February 21st 2024 what was actually approved the second time because it's showing that it was expired the the one the CFA that was issued in 2020 expired you're correct that COA h of 2020 expired and we as part of the development approval through the planning department had to go back for a new COA and and in doing so um the changes were actually minimal but uh the board came up with some good ideas and we implemented the ideas of the board we added some additional windows and some of the buildings we added some additional landscape and back as it related to parking area uh and it came away from the board with with their approval on the date you suggested of 2024 was that and they just looked at block three right yes okay so I guess now this is the question that I'm concerned about because it says in terms of the city land use approvals the approval of the da stands alone with one approval on hbd was there supposed to be additional approvals that's what I'm reading here no other actions have been received by S aside from the actions pertaining to the financing of Heritage partk and then it just goes on indeed HPV approval noted above has expired thus the terms of the city Lan use approvals the approval of the da stands alone with the one approval from HP right so did they only so my understanding is remember where you're reading that from we have the original development agreement we have the approval of the financing we have the CFA for for block three and we have this Deni those are the the active those are the active um approvals or submittals or denials those are the active things why was it bought the three that's the only one anybody other questions okay well let me ask okay um so you said the the reason for the the main reason for the change or one of the two main reasons for the change was that HUD wanted you to do more parking spaces was was removing those moving the one the amenity and removing the other building was that the only um thing you looked at in terms of ways to increase parking that was the most affordable way to increase the parking which to be more more ground level parking area we also did a lot of Park unders here you'll notice as well right a lot of covered parking but those are the two the two ways to increase the parking the probably couldn't tolerate a garage the cost of a g all right and then um can you explain to me a completely different topic how the live work units will works of of reent I guess sure and there are drawings of these detailed drawings for every every unit um the LI work units have ground floors that are configured with a different set of doors in the front and uh and and could be easily changed back or forth if if someone wanted to um to work out of one or have a shop there you know a jeweler or or even a a small Insurance Agency something there's lots of opportunities for for those to be rented as as commercial spaces we have we have some a live work buildings on block three the historic block uh where the ground floor is is fully built out as a as a commercial space and and we have uh Apartments of on the second and third floor above the they are they are in fact Studio spaces studio uh spaces that apartments that could be used in the same way the the two uh buildings on block three that are in the same line I tell that um are you I'm not finished um because well the the areas that are labeled as live work I think are mostly on pet or all on that's correct okay so are those are those considered a single unit in terms of rental not three stories no so someone could rent the living space and somebody different could rent the bottom floor yes very common and if they rented the bottom floor on its own they could only rent it as office or retail space no they have the option that's why it's called live work you could live in it or you can or you can run a shop out so the live work unit could be two live live units I'm not sure I understand that but they okay so I've got I've got a a two story you got three stories I know but the live part of the live work is considered the two stories upstairs and then the the the upstairs is never going to change we're not going we're not going to commercial space on the second all right let me finish so the top two floors would in terms of live work would definitely be the lip space and then the bottom floor could be either another living space or a work space that's correct and they'll be rented to two different people or could be rented to two different people the the bottom floor could be rented to a merchant and the yes they could be it could be rent so it's not a true live work space it's it's apartments above first floor that could be apartments or commercial space it's the the the live work was intended that the ground floor be optional you could work there or you could live there on the ground floor these are these are Studio spaces that work for small shop owners or they work for someone in studio apartment it's it's just entirely up to whether how much demand you know we have so you could end up with more than 200 35 delling unit no there's only so much space on there well if if all of the downstairs units were chosen to be Li units rather than work units would reduce them by 15% or we could increase them by 15% okay but wouldn't that that would increase the number of residential units and decrease the retail retail space yes correct the way the way this is set up now we will meet the requirements of the retail space we will meet the requirements of the of the office space and and we will meet the requirements of of the number of units it's it's very very easy it's not complicated I think there's a I think there's already a difference of opinion of whether you're meeting the the um commercial space requirements so hand you have a question yeah I have a I have a question but I I I have a comment too so so in in all in all previous um developments where we dealt with live work live work meant you you rented it you you or you bought it in cases of of a a couple of homes we have that are live work you live in it and you work in it so um so I I never ever understood that to be either or um that that that is not really what live work is is meant to be the live work is meant to be you you work where you live and and not that oh well this is live work so you can either live in it or you can own an insurance agency in it enough about that I want to know why HUD and this I don't know if this question is for Eileen or if it's for Mr heines bottle why HUD requires for this development more parking than the city of Sanford requires why is that why does HUD have control over the parking in this development to the tune of 96 spaces um especially when when the city had already agreed to the parking requirements why then does HUD come in with seven with 96 more spaces required very often financing agencies have their own criteria banks have their own criteria and and in this case the development agreement was set up with with the the schedule s that had one space per unit as as its basic criteria and and um and uh we realized from having spoken to dozens of Banks and and and US HUD as a good example that it would be preferred to get one and a half units one and a half Cars per per unit and so we implemented the change this was in discussion with staff the whole time this was I don't understand why when you said HUD required it why why HUD what what is the reason for the do you know because HUD was doing the financing right and they're like well we think that if you're going to use our money to build Apartments those apartments are going to need to be have one and a half units to be valuable that was my interpretation when we had the conversation they want to make sure that they make sure there was enough parking so they get their money there's a whole planning philosophy that would say we should reduce the right but that's that wasn't us Hud's approach and it wasn't the approach of of any number of of the banks that we spoke from with f well there's a whole whole um philosophy you know I I not that that I would begin to to to undertake this or do this but there are there are there are people that say that the way in the future would be to make the entire downtown all walkable no parking so you know there's a whole lot of philosophies there I just found it unusual that our parking requirement would be different than Hud's parking requirement unless you're going to if I may Mr chair when this was being written when the da was being written we recognized that one block was a historic historically designated and that it would automatically come under schedule P because it was historically doesn't and we realized that the the consistency of doing it everything the same way made more sense so so it was written the da was written um with the schedule s parking code U for the entire three blocks even though only one was and P not to belor this live work thing but there's nothing that would stop a merchant who's who's living on the who's who's got a shop on the ground floor from living up above his shop I understand that but I thought you're ring them separately you're rening them separately and live work I thought was all one unit what have to R together well I just did a quick internet search and every definition of Liv work was the same person who lives there works works there that's the definition of live work so all this time you've been saying live work I've been going under that definition I did not know you meant that it was an optionable optional flexible these are Flex units Flex units those AR Flex units of Patrick because we don't know that we can possibly support all of that retail space we know beyond a shadow of doubt that we can support all of the all of the residential space those those ground floor units as Studios will rent so uh under the calculations of retail commercial Spates and residential Spates where do the live work units fall under your numbers the the the live work units now are shown uh on on our drawings all in green there's a on this side see where you count that square footage do you count that under your residential numbers or your commercial numbers that group is counted today under the residential numbers okay so Mr sorry the to the to the right of that on block three Patrick um you see there's a big area of red space that's the commercial space there are two 30t wide buildings over there that are that are shall we say live work they have the apartment of above they have the the retail space for work space down below meant for smaller Merchant but when you say live when you say live work those spaces those downstair spaces are also available to be for to be residential to be lived in yes so what you could end up with is you could have you could have someone on the bottom floor residential and right next door you've got a little you've got a unit being used for commercial use and then next door of that you've got somebody else trying to live and then you've got someone else for you could have commercial residential commercial residential you know right down right down the line right next to each other depending on that commercial use that could be really detrimental to whoever was trying to live next door to it correct so I I don't get it suppose I wanted to rent one and open a dog grooming shop and I've got a woman with a brand new baby living right next door to me and the babies got to sleep and people got to get their dogs groom I I I I don't think that's a great plan at at all for development of this quality some of the nicest residential streets I know and I'm thinking of Boston Massachusetts right now um have some of the nicest live work units where the entire ground floor you know is is is open for for merchants folks don't seem to mind that that you know but but in our case we want to encourage we were from the planning perspective always encouraging retail to flow and grow down paleto but there was no way that you could Finance the project if you force all that to be to be retail it's too much the world can't handle that it's got to be either or you you can't expect to have someone you know someone moving into a ground floor residential unit that could potentially have a myriad of different businesses right next right next we don't allow it we don't allow that in our our single family development we don't allow that in our high density devel I I don't I don't I don't I just don't understand how how that would work I I feel like that would be a problem I suggest how I might handle it as management of the of the development as we start out this is going to be those areas you see in in green are going to be residential but they're listed very deliberately as live work so if the rest of the commercial becomes full these annual leases for more [Music] commercial could could be extended down petow which was the overall intent when we started talking about this with the and planning it in the very very beginning the draw commercial customer down padow towards the water but we can't afford to do that now so there's a there's a link there's a point of which it's too much so we're only we're only only building 15% less or there abouts than what we were than what we originally in the 44,000 feet that we originally proposed for commercial space but in the future py there's the opportunity for for if those commercial spaces are viable for us to when the lease is up in those units on the ground floor on the um the pet um we can convert groups of them at any time we that makes sense and it works for us too because when it works for us simply because you should get more rent for the commercial understand that but Mr heall that's still not addressing the the the original problem you start running these units out and you get you get someone who wants to rent a ground floor apartment someone who wants to put a little Insurance business in somebody who out wants a ground floor apartment somebody who wants to have a dog grooming shop it it it it it from the get-go I I I don't care that it could be corrected down the road uh I from the get-go that kind of a that kind of mixed use does not does that kind of mixed use is not going to work and that's some what we're proposing from the GetGo those are going to be studio apartments on the ground floor okay well then that's completely not what was in the development that's not at all what was in the devopment so so for each of the the live work units you're counting that as two residential units in your count is that correct no I'm sorry you just at the bottom floor sorry there are three units in each one of those buildings that you right there's a studio on the lower level and then there's a two bit above and a two bit above that and they look like tow houses right if you looked at them you'd say it's a it's a it's a townhouse so what we're saying so what what we have always believed was a live work unit one unit with residential and work is actually three separate units right is that is that correct yes it is three separate it is three separate units ground floor of which ground floor of which is convertible to work if well any apartment is convertible to workspace in that sense it's that flexibility Public Access okay so essentially in terms of unit types we remove town okay right and then labeled the buildings of already there tranquil living and we got rid of the work part of the live work units and made those apartment buildings with three floors of units that's not my interpretation sir but with all well explain explain to me where I'm wrong this is these are flexible live work units by the common definition in planning terms can I get to the first floor work unit from my second floor living unit without going outside there's nothing that says that has to be the case the door is right next door you go up the stairs you want your answer no you want to you want to enter the same way and the answer is no but that's not a it's not a criteria in the development agreement there's nothing that says I have to design it that way nor do I think it would be a good design could I put a door in that would allow them to do that yeah I could yes we could we could put a door from the stairway that goes up into the work unit into the work space into that ground floor space and you can go directly without going outside I I would like to find anyone but you that finds a live work unit as three separate living units on three separate FL there's nothing that said they couldn't be two three four five floors if this was another city with different typologies we might have gone up high on these side streets what's wrong with a three story un you know that um because it's not a live work unit it's not what was described to us any other questions okay yall have anything else just the rule allows me to so yeah do you want I still need to open it up for I I need to ask I need to ask I need to ask our planning expert a question welcome um under planning terms what is your interpretation of a live work space unit with Works Space from everything I've known from planning terms is as the mayor has described where you live in a portion and can conduct a business out of a portion not completely separate rentable units that's not where work correct okay thank you a more a more appropriate definition I think would have been flexible that we should done all along that intended to be flexible Town design for people like an architect like a artist that wants doesn't want to get up and drive to work who wants to get up and work in there in their home in a separate space connected to their home that is the traditional understanding of a l work space thank you I yes the letter that was written on July 15 2020 by a is that a formal letter of approval it is not in a form that we would issue an approval myself personally with attorney consultation right that would not be a formal approval actually I have one more question of clarification where we're talking about the the letter just so I know what's what uh let me set it up for you um I'm going to be talking about the July 15th letter item number four and then on page six in the agenda uh item number two okay so I'll read them to you but I just I just want to make sure based on the above and one of the above is sample Waterfront Partners in the city agree that the revive site plan drawings including the 235 residential units and then 37,999 ft of non-residential uses in parentheses a 14.6 reduction in non-residential uses is within the 15% allowance to increase in De decrease as outlined in the da approved by the city manager now when I go to this unless if I'm looking at something wrong which you can correct me it says that the component of the proposed changes of the non-residential uses as set forth in the proposed site plan exceeds the 15% threshold allocated to the developer applicant to seek without formal Amendment to the DA in accordance with the processes mandated by controlling state law so it doesn't need it so are those the two same things or not okay the assessment from my review of the pieces of information the assessment from Miss King was that non-residential is one thing which by their own master plan and their own site plan it is not one thing it is broken into retail and restaurant and it is broken into office and each of those land uses can be modified by up to 15% not the category as a whole in the case of the non-residential because the way it's broken down on both plans is that there is retail restaurant and there's office overall that is not an incorrect statement the modification of the overall land use of non-residential if I remember the math correctly does come out just under 15% however the modification of the retail and restaurant alone is closer to 20 so one of the lanest categories to which they ident identify is far beyond the 15% to which any staff member is permitted to approve without commission sorry I'm just swolling through something okay trying want to sit down still um actually either you or bottle can probably answer this question amongst all of the um renderings that we have received in videos of the project wait minut do we have anything that shows the live workk units on com I can look um I do know and what I did find is we do have a rendering up of the Tranquil living and what it is supposed to look like um it would take some sometimes to get it to the computer to get to you but there is a rendering that shows what it was supposed to look like um from the side street and then as for which one are we looking for the the working I can look and see if we have something I think I may have is the master plan we did not reproduce it because it's already in here as part of the appeal request but that which was recorded by the clerk's office County Clerk's Office a lot of it is illegible and hard to see because they were color renderings and when theyed them in black and white they're just very challenging to determine what's on them the um color renderings to which we have which I used as part of the um presentation a little easier to see but I didn't include everything because it is a lot of um there are are some elements in the site plan that was provided to you with the comments as schematic design that they submitted um I don't know if that includes I don't know if that includes the rendering in the something we can look that later okay thank you anybody else have questions for okay this is public hearing is there anyone that wish your name and address the direct please Mary Snipes 44 South Summerland um I do think that the senior Shen which now seems to be right across from the pool but also like to go to things in the evening there and just wondering are we going to have noise issues between the PO community area and our Civic Center which is just a thought also I'm a little offended that you don't call her commissioner M she deserves you are commissioner M when you said there to me also I just we are stford we're not Boston and I just spent three weeks in Europe and that r i saw does not look like Europe what it does remind me of though is maybe I'll change that the brutalism that we saw in Eastern Europe that was the Communist design it's not pretty but I'm most worried about the noise between the call and the city center and M off to do so thank you thank you anyone else want to speak hello once again Nancy gr 107 c um I also find it disrespectful not just to Patty but all the other Commissioners as well be addressed as Commissioners so um it bother me um I can't believe we're here again about this and um I think they should vote to deny it's been [Music] deny I admire your tenacity but should be de thank you there anyone else wish to speak allow the applicant to close if you would like thank you um I think it was 2018 the uh Florida uh State of Florida amended the Florida Constitution um Article 5 section 21 in that Amendment it says that you in your your judicial seats can't take staff's interpretation of any statute or in this case VA you have to do your own denable review and determine what it means it sounds like you're doing that um but when um Miss Henson was telling you that this um that the interpretation of the separate components of what the square footage is that's the the staff's interpretation it it's afforded no difference by this by this panel zero and um when you look at the paragraph which is in 4.6 of the VA it talks about uses separate from component uses and under contract instruction that means that each one has to Beed its own independent interpretation you can't use them to mean the same thing and so you have to make that explain that to me sure I'm not going to take attorney C's position suffices to say what what section are you on 4.6 of the VA um but that that's that's really the um the changes to the site plan that are permissible based on flexibility and that's really what this dispute comes down to and you know I trust that uh I understand based on how your uh questions were going I understand how I think the the paneling is going um but I urge you to make your own independent determination about what says and then using um the evidence and the Reliance by swp urge you to um either to not u reverse the approval without instructions to uh I'm sorry reverse the denial order without instruction to say it's approved so that staff can work with s swp to fix these issues that staff is apparently concerned with but they didn't communicate to us uh I respect requested to do that and if you don't I again urge the panel um to approve the waiver of the onee limitations to the swp can submitted revised plan if you would affirm the den thank you right I have a question for yes so under 4.6 changing of uses the second sentence starts off developer shall have flexibility to change uses you're saying the word uses there is not the three uses on the front of the master if you read further in that paragraph mayor it goes on and it says it talks about component uses later in that paragraph So when you have uses in the same paragraph and it's a list of things that you're delineating and I'll leave it to Mr attorney colber um to advise the the panel on the law but my understanding of C of contract construction that goes to have to have given so use component is not we use those as defined in our code they are residential and nonresidential is that you're trying to explain my understanding as reading that paragram is that uses are residential and non-residential that's my understanding okay and we have almost two pages of non-residential uses in Our Land Development okay so to many uses are uses outlined in Our Land Development except what said that da really right combine two of those uses into one category yeah the da would govern right that's that's my understanding okay and the DA has two different nonresidential uses correct I see it as a non-residential use that describes the specific types of facilities that have to be built but they're all known as all right thank you thank you so close public hearing um bring the commission for discussion my fault process is I don't understand how we ever got to denial Dev development order why the applicant didn't just come to commission to change to ask the change of the development agreement but I was also you know we had three letters from our attorneys from the um app numerous things all of which I was ready to dispute um my favorite was from June 2 June 24 2022 from the gunster offro so this would not be you um the city had no right to require the amendment to the development agreement with conditions that EV and yeah Mr heisen model about that development agreement which def ried I disagree with def but that was the one with the Michaels organization was very confusing and an email said that um the city central workfront partners and micos organization had all come to a good agreement that benefited all three organizations so those are the kinds of conversations we have I would certainly entertain going back and and letting them propose some changes um I am just I I'm really thrown for a loop that the definition that is being used to work is not the definition all that's where I am right now anyone else I would agree so what is I move to affirm the decision of the administrative official and the denial the denial development order okay and without the um the extension the let's see if there's a second okay second second okay so if we just affirm the denal development order that precludes any submittal of a new site plan is that correct it doesn't preclude the from submitting a new site plan but the new site plan has to be compliant with the DA they can't submit a new site plan that matches what you've just deny can they come can they follow the da and come to the commission and say we'd like some changes they can come to the commission and ask for changes to the DA yes based on the new site plan and the modifications shown in that Master Plan overlay like the the new layout they have they can present it and this commission obviously can make modifications to the development or they can present to staff a new cite that is compliant with the renderings that are part of the best okay so I just want to make because I thought earlier there was a comment made and I don't know by who that if we um the attorney's raising stand that if we just uphold the denial development order that prevents them from doing anything else for a year there are Provisions in the Land Development regulations regarding zoning and rezoning that um require an applicant to wait a year to reapply if as part of this affirmation of the denial um the commission wants to ensure that I'm I'm not 100% where in the Cod is because we very rarely have it very rarely does anybody seek to wave that one year I think in all the time I've been here we've had it happen once so if you want to add it as a condition that no no time period is required for them to come back and amend any um element of the development agreement that's that's I want to make sure that if they want to they can come to the commission to ask for a change to development you don't you really don't need to you really don't need to say that but you can just to assure that water partners that they a new Z plan under the da it's an iterative process so they can continue to cut in and and say this conforms with the da make submissions without any waiver can as you mentioned earlier request an amendment to the DA which put through the process to amend the da or you can also just say even if it did apply we wave any any delay in new application which I think is what you're ask just for insurance is that correct so after you vote on this motion I think it would be paliative to the applicant to make a motion to if there is a conclusion to filing a new application that is W and they can file a new application would that saf you thank you Mr that well can we just make that a part of this because we still have an AG on right I know but I mean want them to be in compliance with the original master plan I don't what I'm hearing say that they can come before the commission and then we can change the the development agreement to CER to something that we didn't that wasn't originally presented to us right the issue is can I interrupt the issue is substantial compliance and that's what the S found is the one that you're ask the site plan that you're acting on now was not in substantial compliance with there could be a different site plan to do not match the master plan in the da which is in substantial compliance with the master plan the VA does that make sense but if it's if it's beyond that you have to amend the development agreement itself that make sense commission Brittain just I guess what you're asking is um what would the benefit be to the city to change the development agreement as was originally submitted if those were the goals to which the commission was seeking yes okay so they can present modifications the commission doesn't have to approve modifications we've already multiple hearings and such that we've heard modifications to the agreement that we worked through that got denied with the Michaels organization and related so what you are providing them the opportunity is to present a plan plan they've heard your voices today and what it is that you're looking for they do want to make modifications make changes that may be palatable but not exactly the same as they originally were they may be a better design they may be something the commission wants to see it's been a number of years so changes may be beneficial however they can only do that if they address them to you right that's s my point is yeah so you approve this I cannot approve Chang the development approve correct I can only make changes I can only approve or deny in compliance with what this work has incl to I'm not necessarily against more parking stes I I recognize that there may be a need to reduce the amount of retail I just don't have the authority I do not she does not have the authority to do that um I don't agree with you know what he is saying would be the change for the work but I can see them presenting changes that Mak the project still viable for anyway but what I'm hearing is even if we don't make that motion they can still do that all right any other discussion I just want to be sure that we understand what the record is the record as I understand it is the staff report and the exhibits attached to it which the applicant has had and a recent and I think it's probably already been looked at by staff for a recent rendering plus the what I think has been identified as the news that was introduced tonight is there any other part of the record that I am missing I want to be sure council do you agree that that constitutes the record for thaton has a PowerPoint presentation yes PowerPoint I thought there was something that was Miss thank you sir I agree the PowerPoint should be part and and I think um I think with Mr Groot everything you've got is everything there is okay we're in agreement thank you appreciate your deliver all right any further discussion all in favor I opposed I Mr Mayor members of the commission just for clarification if they wanted to submit is there a time period that you're saying they must do it motion no all we did was uphold her denial which does not preclude them from following the VA to submit changes to the city or to submit a site plan for review by the administrative to decide that right corre I understand all right thank you thank you before we move on Mr Bart you asked that question and I'm wondering um was that even possible like you just you think about that the attorney had asked that did not that there' be the oneyear period and gu want take there in Clarity from the commission to the C you did not change any timin great so it's clear that s work from Partners could submit something yeah that's my understanding yes and uh uh Mr manager my concern was to the extent the da is contract zoning that zoning limit of one year would conclude s swp from submitting anything for one year you cleared that on the record and uh I'm comfortable thank you okay thank you that brings us to other items [Music] request re City Utilities to propos preschool and daycare at 4,2 East State Road 46 recomend to the committee approve discussion [Music] favor Okay resolution [Music] 3245 St recomend approve resolution 3245 to amend the budget approv resolution asending to transfer Capital asset to Founders three management company many to the S basically allowing them to use veh says we're Returns on funds to buy to buy and then we're transferring the VY yes why are we [Music] buying assistant city manager it's really a lot we're buying the truck but Founders three emplo be operating the truck there's a bit of a liability there uh legal and man comfortable uh Founders three employees operating a city vehicle so we're going to transfer ownership of the vehicle to Founders three and if uh we need to take it back for other operational reasons say we switch management companies then we'll take so the funding part is just really a wash you're not we're paying for the truck warant we've already paid for it I think your question is why aren't we telling Founders three the TRU yeah I mean they're getting paid handsomely um why are we buying them Tru Marina that they manage that they manage and get paid to manage if they need a truck to do their job we shouldn't necessarily have to supply them a truck they should have their own trucks to do the jobs that they contract to do we we've already lought theu our Capital asset right now it's like one of our assets bar Mar we have to Trump out vote yeah us it's our asset the same thing as NE we have much equipment if they leave or transfer it's still our [Music] asset what we're encountering is the employees of found using the private vehicles to take up supplies uh other things with their own the vehicle so the request was made two years ago so we decided to proce get inter for them so they could use their for City business to pick up um you mentioned liability how does this how does this make us free from liability because their city employees and their insurance insurance I just Sor how do they ensure a truck that we own they're take it back how do they take it back well that's part of the amendment that's in here is is part of the amendment to management say insir switch then we'll take it back to it reverts back but we're paying them to manage the mo right and they essentially lack the equipment that they need to manage the marina if they like a truck so we're coming in and saying we're going to pay you the same thing to manage the marina but we're we'll Supply you the truck that you obviously can't supply for yourself even though we're paying you it doesn't make sense so you you mentioned the golf course correct you're telling me that uh down to earth doesn't use any downto Earth vehicles to bring in anything to that Golf Course same thing with the marina with the two Forest we down take the boat out the r and provide res and same thing so answer my question down to earth doesn't use any of their corporate trucks they pay for everything mowers and everything they don't use trucks right those are all our AES those are literally like our employees you're they're a management company to you they serve you you said you pay for those employees you pay for those activities but we have the assets we own the buildings the grounds the equipment it's just this truck will be going on state roads you know and Roads we can't you know they have to be licensed so the insurance was very very complicated we could not Ure their employees this this is what bothers me with with with with with the golf course they're not technically driving the city vehicle home I mean how how who's going to monitor the usages of that truck you know is somebody going to be taking it home every night is somebody going to somebody's kid going to get in it and drive it I mean I this is a little bit crazy to me that's another main reason we we want it on their insurance but you can answer the question is there any requirement that the truck stay on the marina property except when being used the the whole one of the main reasons is to go get supplies for like the ship store Etc they have to go to Sam's Club or whatever and instead of using a personal vehicle they would be using an asset vehicle of the city but it's their vehicle but her question was about someone taking it home will it remain at the marina and nonworking hours is the question we we if the commission wants to do that we can make that a dep but you know our Fleet superintendent likes trucks to be driven often own because they're made to be driven and we got a lot of vehicles just sit and sometimes that creates problems too yeah but when they made to be driven and we encourage driving put more miles on and cost the city more gas I assume the city will be paying for the gas for this truck it comes out of the Marin out of mar comes out of the marina budget for the G yeah I'm telling y'all I don't think I'm going to go through this I've got that look on my face because I'm reconciling the forli the truck forklift isn't licensed to drive on any it's used to lift the boat these are golf carts so our agreement with the marina is we provide the capital equipment needed to R the moon that's correct is that what's in our aggreement with them that's correct okay but being even have a vehicle to run to Sam's to pick up supplies this is this is this is a little bit this is a little bit to me a little iffy when when Mr Smith says well you know it's going to be like we're going to Sams well I'm sorry you know stop on your way to work I I I don't so they manage Titusville and and Halifax and they do the same thing we check with them and the fact the city owns the vehicles over there I've looked into this and are legal and risk manag I recommend that they take ownership of it they have a sweet deal how much how much we 8,000 month $8,000 a month so 96,000 so we're comparing this to the golf course um and I'm there more than most people on the style um Scotty doesn't have a truck that he goes to SS to pick up supplies for the golf boys Scotty uses his own vehicle I know this was a request from the mar came years no but if you're going to if you're going to give me an Apples to Apples comparison give me an Apples to Apples comparison that's there's nothing at Mayfair that leaves that golf course that we provide he he is correct about that he probably has a lot of things to as well yeah fertilizer majority of are we ready for a how often do they need to go somewhere to the Burger King to for example they're making those planners at the front entrance they needed to have some uh soil delivered Lumber they need to pick up Lumber and soil and everything like that so they did that projects like that there's a lot of work that needs to be done out there um man company that doesn't even own one truck I'm sorry it's a lot of different factors in it I don't see the problem with there being a truck there and them using it but for insurance purposes I don't I don't understand why because they are not a FTE or employee of the city and a risk management they cannot find a route to do insurance off of us right so if we if we can't ensure it then we shouldn't allow them to to use the truck because I I I don't get the whole purpose of we're transferring to them so they can insure under their insurance that's correct which makes sense to me I do appreciate if it's a Nissan so it's a little less expensive so so um have to their entire six months well I think can you buy a truck to my neighbor kitties getting ready to go and just decision easier for you all I talk to the fleet superintendant this truck can be reallocated to another depart department just in case you do so we can use truck somewhere else how about how about this idea and and and listen you know in in all seriousness this is this is a very serious question here Chief you know I I know that there have been several times that we've disagreed with you one was when you wanted to buy a fire truck in conjunction with Lake Mary and I always feel really bad having to you know be so negative but but I do want to ask you this and I'm very serious about this I don't understand why any management company that is big enough that they're managing other marinas besides the s Marina and I do completely understand why they they need the for flips and I understand our equipment at the golf course it does not leave the golf course but I don't understand why this management company doesn't at least own one truck somewhere that they can pick up Lumber and soil and groceries with and I would ask you in all seriousness because I'm going to probably vote against this is this are we not better off if they literally are that desperate for lumber soil and groceries could we not have a City truck they call in once a week and say I need this this this we picked up and every Monday we go out and do their pickups for them wouldn't that cost us less money than giving us a truck giving them a truck that takes our guys away going to trust well so I think we forgot a part that was already mentioned commissioner M that um troubles me even more we've already purchased this yeah we've already bought it now we're getting asked about it how old is this drug and how much did we pay for it probably like a month old it's a month old is it24 $2,673 but use you guys against this we could use it in City else relations we bought it for this yeah without ask without ask budet process was it was it in last year's budget how many employees do they have have what at the Marino we have five in partment five total employ L Bill and one part time this right here so we we pay the management company and manage the marina I want to know how many people they have stationed up there we have five five okay they had five of their employee station out there this right here is where I get concerned about taxpayer dollars you know I we haven't spend taxpayer dollars on a lot of stuff I don't think the taxpayers should have had to buy Founders three Tru I think if Founders 3 doesn't have a truck they need to find a way to get their own truck they're making $96,000 a year managing the S Marine I understand but when I ask the question about why don't you guys have a truck it's because it's our marine if you're actually transferring the asset as a wash you're not giving them you're giving actually putting an asset on the marina that's what you're doing you're just putting it in their name temporarily to cover the their insurance and not ours you can always get that asset back how much are we makeing they're making they're making 8,000 a month right now we we're at about 140,000 in the in the positive I believe it was what the question how much are we making a month on that Marina 20 to 25,000 month we're making 20 to 25 and we only made like 25,000 when we leased it so your management companies are working you're getting better improvements out there Mar May is doing fantastic does our contract say that we'll what does our contract say does our contract with them say that we will provide them a truck it it says they would operate our Marina it's up to you what do you want to have on that Marina I see okay so they'll operate I guess I guess that's that's I I'm okay right move to Second pap you do realize there are two resolutions for that oh yeah we need second 3246 motion move to approve second favly thank you keep straight one was the budget amendment okay 324 already done we already did that oh we did we just did a budget amendment but I thought he said it was in the budget already from last year did you just amend the budget for the you're moving you're moving into a different account okay next item is the item that was discussed during the work session that is commission rules City commission City staff City commission adop resolution number 3248 with the rules s City commission I could get started on this one too I like the part where yall aren't supposed to talk until I call well it's always been that way I try to I I don't like this and after going through it tonight I really don't like it and I'm going to need to see more reasons of why we have to do this I I need to see case law from our DCA I need to see case law or law that says we need to do this that that was a horrible process horrible and um I I don't I don't like it um so I hear that you want to continue this item yeah move to continue to move to continue to December I didn't have a problem with I I think it's confusing because we really don't understand it but I do believe that if legal says that it's going to help clear up some things in the future and that it benefits the city of s bir then I think you should get on board I just don't understand it because it's brand new but it's a lot of things that are brand new okay that we can commissioner Britton I I respect that and so I will ask them to show us where we have been found to be uh negligent in court under the way we've been operating does that make sense yeah but we don't want to be on that I agree but this I I I agree with you let's have them come give us a better explanation of why what the actual um law is not necessarily that we've been found guilty of of it but part of what we fight every year here is changes in state law that are made because of issues in other parts of the state but uh state representative state senator from Miami is mad at a city in Miami and he goes to Tallahassee and it gets gets a law passed of how operations have to happen at the city level um I feel like that is the same thing that's happened here there's case law from other areas of the state that that operate differently than we have and operate differently than we do but they've been founded for uh by their operations that doesn't mean our operations are bad does that make sense at all it does okay would you like to have the S of work session yes yes so did I hear a motion to continue motion to continue for a month uh August because we have uh one meeting in July right yeah we have two in July we did you wanted two in July pretty you also have your budget we do have the budget I the second meeting of July okay do I have a second second all in favor so we'll get a work session my question is when did you want the work between now [Music] andine 32 49 Mr Mayor members of commission C staff is requesting approval resolution 3249 to the budget am $3,950 to increase the purchase order to rut group making the new Total 961 traditional Civil Service Civil Engineering Services this is the one that getes me heart this gives me terrible heart R terrible I I got off on this last time and I'm going to get off on it again I guess Chief mcneel could you come down oh yes it's not this point he's going to blame it on somebody else I'm going to have a conversation with this week yes Chief you know we we we talked about this before and I and and I I have the utmost respect in you and the utmost faith and you you're doing a wonderful job with our fire department I just feel very strongly that a million dollars for for Engineering Services to fill that fire department is is just exorbitant and I feel like what's happening is I I I you know I I had made a suggestion that that um quite frankly you know we it's spend a million dollars why couldn't we back on there are fire stations all over this country being built all over this country being built there are readily available plans for fire stations why you couldn't piggy back on on on on another facility being built on another plan I think this is an outrageous amount of money I don't think it's you but I do think that it is a a a misuse of of government funds by these companies I think I think they say ooh ooh municipality city money money you can't tell me if they were building this same structure in somebody's backyard that it would cost a million dollars in civil engineering and I don't I don't understand how it got this High I don't I don't I don't I I really have a problem with this okay the 93,000 is not for the station itself right this is for the airport property um remember we are filling in a drainage a dry Pond area to build our station and now the airport wants the they want to have usable land and not dig another dry pond on their land they want usable lands so with that they have to do a drainage project so you're going to see even more funds coming in here with that because they want it all to go underground and go off elsewhere and Chris can talk more that this is for the engineering of not the building this is an architect with many disciplines this is strictly a civil engineering portion of it it is required because the site was relocated from the original site to another site so there's a pro and a con to it the con of course is a different way we have our outfall for drainage that's the con the pro of this is the site is actually the one that's much better for the fire station so there are some changes there we still need to do the storm water it's just a little different we can't go through through the Navy Canal we've got to go through a different system to be able to go through that through the Master System of the airport that's the reason so when this fire station is built the day it's open what will it have cost us total oh right now we're the GMP of N I believe yeah just under n 8.9 8.9 million right and remember there's two types of stations and I want to ask your first question can we piggy back you can't state law prohibits $4 million or above can piggy back my piggy back I mean couldn't we just get somebody else's plan you can't that's that's basically a reuse of piggyback of it's another system you cannot it is also it is also a totally different Apple than orange this is a Harden station remember what we were talking about before versus a neighborhood station a neighborhood station is not hardened means if a hurricane came they would have to evacuate and lock the door this one they could stay and it's also a four day station so stations have increased over time aren't all of our stations hardened uh no all of ours are they 32 and 3 we just would be able to answer that they didn't used to be yeah they were correct 32 and 38 were not but they are now they hard so I just this just kills my soul well it's just like we have a construction specialist in our in the audience and you're running about 33% increase in construction cost at this time are you dumping this on Mr roty I'm not they have a lot of they have a lot of expertise that we love golf course man I you're not doing this are and the airport you are doing this too um so he's going to help us convince the airp in their drainage so so mahania the rest of the story on this is this is just the engineering right there's going to be cost for the actual moving of the storm water off of the property and it's estimated to be about a million dollar for engineering and construction of the pond and there's hopes but there's no guarantees that the airport is going to pay half of that the airport has delivered a draft Ila to the city finding agreement the we just received it and they are willing to put up a half a million half a million I know the airport's going to they have but this just a million dollars for civil engineering just seems very just seems exorbitant to me one other caveat is the thought process is through all of the potential development at the airport they don't want to waste property on stor so that's the other I get I get it just a darn lot of money I'm not as upset about this as I was about the $30,000 to design that you not good okay I don't know about that we move on $9 million fire department somebody we need a motion to approve motion second second all in favor I any oppos asly resolution 3250 yes Mr the May of City commission City staff is asking your approval of resolution 3250 to amend budg amount of [Music] $145,600 each were they that much when we used s but do we Le what do we lease we lease the non Mar cars are we're p5,000 mayor Commissioners city manager um yes it's about $70,000 for each of the cars to be outfitted completely with that is everything inside of the vehicles including the radios lights and everything that's there as far as lease is concerned as um as Cindy town of explained it before some of this is kind of a leas when we ask for the 1.4 million for all of the 19 cars that we're doing part of that is part of the lease program and part of it is for purchase so it's a combination of both okay so these are being purchas those purchase these are purchase yes replace ones we already have repl two that were proposed D rep the nature of the businesses a lot of them get destroyed appr motion further discuss all in favor thank you Chief resolution 3251 city is asking approval resolution you want to amend the budget you 11,280 $280 increase the cred order for the building division's Capital account and this is for the design and the partal demolition of the greway area construction new replacement office how the building and this is coming from the building questions or a motion second second motion second all in favor I I any opposed unanimously add on item resolution 3252 17,635 inre uity of charges to Department of [Music] question question okay so it says additionally FD has requested that the city submit an evaluation conducted by a professional engineer of the entire collection transmission system and so on and so forth how much is that going to cost us or can we do that in housee hello um BR Johnson Public Work utility director um if you recall from the conversation that we had before regarding this um for the oneon-one meeting um this is something that actually we got hit with this in 2022 so in 2022 uh d gave us a f for our transmission and collection system as a part of that consent order in 2022 they required that we um submit an engineered uh plan on how we were going to move forward um and or an action plan but also um a plan from an engineer so what we're going to do is uh basically take that same report modify it update it and submit it we don't have a cost on that yet but as mentioned this is something that uh was previously done only two years ago so they're going to accept you taking an old plan and submitted it even though they they say that it has to be conducted by a professional engineer and that's what we did before and that was our issue with this particular consent order was that it felt like it was Double Jeopardy because we receiv received the consent order in 2022 we were required to get an engineering um assessment of the system um we were required to submit an action plan a 5-year action plan and how we were going to implement um or remedy the system we did that and we're still within that 5year window because like I said we got it in 2022 and so we technically have three years on that 5year program um so we haven't even gone through those yet and then we got hit with another one for the exact same issue which is the collection system I don't think we see it as a d double jeopardy Mr Johnson because we I mean we did violate I mean we did have additional skill and and whatnot I don't see it as as as Double Jeopardy as something that really needs to stop but we don't have a number of how much the engineer is going to cost us we do not but like I said we're going to take the same plan modify it update it um and submited and yes they were the same spills but it's the same the collection system itself hasn't changed um except of the improvements that we've done in the last two years okay and I read somewhere that that this has to be done by July 1 no it says please review this document and by July 1st return a sign copy to the department so we don't have to have the engineering and all of that stuff by July 1st just the agreement signed by July 1 yes right okay and I think I already know this question but just for those who are listening where is this 127,000 coming from I want of the capital town equ we transfer to operating to make payment anything else have a motion we have a second second any further discussion all in favor I I any oppos nle say the attorney comments thank you Mr Johnson I have no additional items I city clerk's report I have nothing city manager no additional it I have one request to speak to commission uh Mr pero finally your turn [Music] B what I need approach thank don't trip are you res [Music] he left some other ones here Mr K Mr K Mr kop you had two you brought two sets of papers up is this the one you're looking for oh you have enough for everybody too what I have here is I'm appealing to the San City Commission on behalf of the property on 256 s Avenue the background is that the tenant have two trailers situated behind the restaurant Angel's restaurant one was a plywood barbecue mess and it and there was and the other was a semi-trailer a vagrant was sleeping in the barbecue and a neighbor complaining the barbecue was removed to resolve the problem but somehow C code enforcement said the semitrailer had to go nobody was sleeping in it it was secured was Tony was storing kitchen equipment stainless steel this and all that kind of stuff that they have in kitchen we pointed out that it was in reliable use in this only category code enforc insisted that it go we finally got them to check the planning where they said it was in wildly use the process went on for several months we were cited for non-compliance in front of the magistrate because of questions involved the hearings were continued month to month even though code enforcement knew the semitrail was allowed they decided to press on the case in September the 14th of 2022 the matter came up at a hearing before the magistrate she decided because of recommendation code enforcement to close a fine of $250 a day until the semi trailer was removed the notice of the hearing was signed by the code enforcement secretary on the same day in other words we didn't have a notice of the hearing there was no way we could be at the hearing because it wasn't noticed to the same day we did not receive any notice of hearing until two two letters arrive one certified one regular letter standard way the date stamp on the envelopes was October the 3rd now this meeting that they're talking about was September the 14th we didn't get notice of it in the mail until the 7th of October which is 23 days after the hearing the notice of the fine was also dated October the 3r we received that on October the 5th so we received the notice of the fine two days before we receive the notice of the meeting such we're not notified until weeks after the hearing we have no way of attending and defending ourselves in of the magistrate have to turn the page over because it's on the fact we're saving paper we decided to solve the issue by removing a semitrailer it took longer than anticipated to find somebody who would drag it out of there and take it away we think that finding citizens without giving them a chance to appear before the hearing is not fair we remove the trailers both of to solve the problem we're asking the city commission to pass a motion to order the city to remove the lean of $25,000 on our property thank you um you say had you been to any of the hearings before the one that was on September 14th wa had you been to any of the hearings before the one on September 14th yes the hearings are going on I Tony attended so he he was the main one who was this was his trailer and I attended some of yes okay so so likely you would have known that it was continued to the next month would you have known that it was continued to the next month if you had been at the hearing would you have known the hearing was continued to the following month if you had been at the hearing the previous month's hearing no we we didn't get a notice of this hearing but had you been at the meeting where they continued it to the next meeting I wasn't at the meeting of the previous meeting was Tony apparently I I don't think I was asre as me the notice for this meeting didn't go out until the 14th so there was no way I would know that this meeting was being held the notice of the meeting didn't go out till the 14th all of a meeting that was held on the 14th is there a process where because I I mean I'm not comfortable making a decision based on this I would like staff to have an opportunity to present this to us here you I met with Mr kof and I saw where my concerns was I did see the envelopes where it showed that the the the dates and when the letter was sent out I also met with Mr verondo and Angela regarding the same incident my only concern is if you're just looking at it legally the notices were after the the date that's the only thing is if you're looking at what was sent out now I could he have gotten the information before or attended the other meeting yes but when I sat there with him and I he actually had the notices and the dates and the letters that's where I have seen those too making a decision I think we need that to present us the the timeline and let us know what to do if you look on the second page of the ending order you look the second page you see that certifi that she sent by us Ma on 14th of September Mr there accusations about staff and fairness to C TR to you and the audience I would ask that staff be able to provide a response and Tony and andela can see what they've got to say okay we I have um Mr Rondo um speak one for a moment but the lean is no longer 25,000 right the lean isn't 25,000 that is the total if you're going to pay the total amount we still uh when the property's in compliance there's no cross attachment eligible for the lean indry program good evening Mr again for the record Tony Vermont of development services um for the record I think a cliff notes version of the summary is everything that Mr K shop represented is true uh with respect to the trailer I would point out that it was in a Swale or retention area behind angels that was meant to manage water and that was my primary concern with the uh the semi trailer at the time um it is true that the magistrate was late getting some of the notices back to us which is the one in question however to your point me your question was app propo and that was that in all the previous hearings and attended by Tony um notice of those um hearings were given 30 and sometimes 60 days in advance so there were there was plenty of notice and additional to all the notice that happened at those hearings um there was Communications at the code of enforement window with Mr kof and I spoke and with Tony from Angels um communicating those dates pretty clearly and then finally um when Mr kop could relay his concerns to me uh what we did we did have we had no obligation to do so the appell timelines have run its course we gave an additional hearing just to be sure we uh we brought Mr kof's Case back before the magistrate again and and reserved everything just to make sure sure that due process was served the magistrate heard that case ruled on that case and provided a detail summary finding in favor of the city and uh and so that's where we stood on it so it's my recommendation that the F see but he's eligible for amnesty correct that's correct that's been communicated as well and what would AMS be da uh so it's it's 50% of the total or maximum $5,000 wor a $400 administrative fee and frankly Tony came down to pay Tony uh the the controller of angels came down and was communicated to us if he was told not to by Mr kersa he was going to resolve it in this manner uh so you know the property is eligible unless I miss something Miss Atkins do is there any cross attachment properties that you know yeah I think we're good okay and the and the the 21 Day um delay in getting the order was would be $5,250 it still would have run for 25,000 I'm I I'm not following the math at pod to me well his his his comment was that they received the notice 21 days after the hearing so even if they had gotten it in a time in a timely manner they were aware of at the day of that still would only reduce at $5,250 Le amnesty reduces it more than that correct okay okay what do you want to do that the amnesty is they name this the uhy reduces it to 50 5250 no 5400 5400 and that's how everyone else is treated y there was 100 days yeah subract 21 of that you're about 80 still be one the okay Mr kof we think you should take the lean amnesty program the lean amnesty program and have it reduced to $5,000 the amnesty program doesn't reduce 25,000 5,000 yes it does yes it does $5,000 so 5,400 so due process doesn't doesn't matter is that what you're saying no that's not what I'm saying all okay well that's what I'm looking at is the hearing was not a was not a legal hearing because whenever you have a gentleman here who's a process server and do process says as you have to have notice and we didn't have adequate notice of the hearing where the fine was imposed so if it was a if it was a legal notice and it was in the paper and there was something wrong that's not a correct legal notice you have to read advertise and so forth and that's what you're you should be looking at is whether the notice is legal and when the notice is a 14th and the hearing is on the 14th okay well the other the other thing I'm willing to do is reduce it by the 21 days that that you had not received the notice which would reduce it by 5250 we Endy would be a better deal if if we had been had adequate notice of the meeting we could have presented things and so forth and maybe the fine would not have been imposed in the first place if we had adequate notice to be there at the meeting if it was our right to be at the meeting it was the right of any citizen to be at the meeting but there was not enough notice for adequate for any citizen other than us or US to be at the meeting but you did have you did have a meeting to present your side and you were ruled against what you did have a meeting eventually and you were ruled against correct that was that was something that Mr group thought up I didn't ask for that meeting but have it he he said they're going to have this meeting and the magistrate at the meeting said why are we here I'm going to rule like I did before she did not read what I had at the meeting and my evidence or anything she just okay that's what she said okay so the mayor said that we he he would agree to giving you credit for the 21 days so that still leaves you 79 days Mr kop so you didn't know 21 days okay but you had 79 days after that we were we were talking to planning and zoning about the whether the whether the trailer could stay there there were details that we were we were talking about at the time and that's why we didn't and and as I said then after we decided that it was hopeless to talk to anybody it took time to find somebody who would take the tra tonight that is all we can do for you tonight that's all we can do does that mean tomorrow we do something different what does that mean tonight okay so that is all we can do is offer the lean amnesty thank you thank you is anyone else in the audience wish is speak to the commission Joseph Principe in 1470 West 25th Street Apartment 205 in Sanford whenever um I see Injustice happening I feel feel like like I absolutely have to speak out on it like because that's the right thing to do even if it's difficult or inconvenient for me to do and this involves me and um other people including women I'm not going to mention the names of anybody or any businesses or anything involved that I'll provide those details to the City commissioners after the meeting um this is a um matter that um like that's of concern to the community because it involves um someone um who's a longtime staff member and pillar of the community at an otherwise peaceful um and Progressive downtown Sanford establishment um he's a very large um muscular aggressive alpha male um but he's violent and unstable and um um uh like he's he's done everything [Music] and aggressive and belligerent and demeaning and discriminatory and bured and terrorized that me and other patrons and staff members including a female who is my friend and who is with no taller than 53 and um obviously a lot smaller than this large muscular aggressive alha male um and um the staff's demands to get this guy fired and B from the property were met with basically just prioritizing and maintaining the status quo over the safety of patrons and employees and protecting people's human rights when I when I went into this establishment um I was confirmed by this guy who um I didn't even know was a staff member um I just thought he was a patron he was falsely claiming to be the owner and I knew this was false because I actually know the owner of this establishment and he was asking if I was okay which is ironic because he seemed like he was um intoxicated on both alcohol and drugs and was acting very unstable and and then I was like yeah I'm fine and then he's like I'm the owner of this establishment you're not allowed back here and I was like don't play that with me because I know the owner of this establishment so I went to take a seat at the bar and then he picks up a chair and convincingly acts like he's going to throw at me and um all the while he's um alternating between saying you're beautiful and um I'm going to censor out language here I'm going to blank your blank up and then a bartender asks him to leave after he sees this and and I just want to point out that um the whole time that this is going on even though the Benders like repeatedly asking this guy to leave and nothing happens and but they don't call the cops or um anything like to actually enforce that even though he poses a threat to the safety of like the people there as well and um this guy followed me into the bathroom and I went there to hide from him and then he's pounding on the door I tell him to get away from me and then he's like you're really a blank now and then when he finally leaves the bathroom I go out and then I'm thinking he's gone he still there and then I have to hide behind the bar and like say because I see this guy and like that's the only place where um like um were like I feel like somewhat protected from it like you know that's only area and like I know the people who work at this place so like they would have understood like why I was doing that and then one the staff members ends up escorting me to safety while the other two are trying to kick them out and including my um my friend who's a woman and then this woman and I need you I need you to wrap it up please okay um yeah so so but This Woman's asking him to go and then he's yelling and screaming in her face and then calling her the c word and the W word and um and then he's going around the bar like smearing her basically and then like finally he ends up W like they go the owner and um like they demanding for him to get five that's basically met with what the excuse was oh we depend on him for the um um to keep the piic so instead of hiring somebody who um is respectful towards um human rights and makes employees and patrons feel comfortable they basically just want to maintain the status quo despite supposedly being Progressive and rights Champions and I just want to not that I have asers which is a form of autism which makes this even more of a human rights issue like how is um keeping this guy who's done all these things that I describ being Progressive or a human rights Champion um I think that's um that's all okay I would say if this when this happens again someone should call the police and have it addressed okay all right I I felt like um it was worthy of public attention also if there was anything the city could do like like say like um if there's a violation of liquor laws or whatever like maybe they could have the liquor license taken away but I don't know I just thought it needed to be addressed somehow and like when I see unjust things happen like that I feel compelled to speak out because that's what I would want for myself thank you you're wel totally understand what you're saying can I make you one other suggestion is that is that sometimes the absolute best thing that you can do to get a point across is to not not go there and so if you and your I am very of this establishment I forgot to mention that oh good okay okay thank you but if you ever feel in danger you know to call 911 immediately right yeah this is more to speak up for um like other people who go there who may be endanger this guy and also my friends who are still working there all right thank you you're welcome anyone else in the audience wish to speak to the commission okay we'll close citizens comment commissioner BR again you know what I'm let it go commissioner Wiggins commissioner Austin commission M and I have something important and I'll make it quick everybody look this way look this way so you know I've been saving up my my my uh my little pot of money to spend on it's not your pot of M something for a public purchase well I know that or our city my pot of money that I thank you you know exactly what I'm talking about public art enriches everyone public art commission's done a fantastic job there's gorgeous public art all over this city this my friends if you haven't seen it is what's going to go on the Rotunda the front of City Hall it's huge it's lit from behind it says Sanford it's of a postcard style you can see that it has things that depict Sanford but Progressive things moving forward we're not using celery we're not using for drawn carriages we do have oranges we do have the beachy we have the clock um anyway it's beautiful and I would like to be able to spend uh uh the public art commission has some money in their budget for this although not enough and I would like to be able to um expend $10,000 of that fund um on this particular project which is going to be done and held in a safe place until three models done and then the artist will come and be here for the installation it's lit from behind this little wave is actually part of it so and it's huge and for anybody in the audience I can pass this around it's really beautiful it says Sanford took us a long time to decide on the front to decide on the images this is Kirk SE Kirk CE is an artist up north we've got a couple of other Kirk pieces this is what the public art commission has voted on is that a motion it is um she is about to make one I move to approve the $10,000 out of the commission fund for District 4 for a public purpose for a public any discussion no fa I opposed pass thank you very much we can have the invoice sent to theity um I believe that this was the invoice that uh Lisa gave me would you hand that down to him it says invoice Lisa Lisa said that's the invoice for when you present it does that look appropriate it any questions okay we are thank you Mr Bart thank you everybody